I've been getting into Plato recently, and reading Phaedrus I came across this passage:
"For there is no light of justice or temperance or any of the higher ideas which are precious to souls in the earthly copies of them: they are seen through a glass dimly; and there are few who, going to the images, behold in them the realities, and these only with difficulty."
It immediately reminded me of the famous Paul 1 Corinthians 13:12:
"12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
Now, the phrase apparently appears in few other socratic dialogues as well (and is even used, in Phaedo I think, in the exact same form as in Paul: "through a glass darkly"). I found it intriguing, I did a little bit of googling and found a discussion by some historians, who wondered about the same thing. They came up with a set of logical, possible, and in my opinion very interesting theories:
a) Plato's dialogues were modified by Church historians/copyists so they would be more easily reconcilable with the christian narrative.
b) Paul read Plato, was influenced by his writing and made references to him in his letters.
c) The phrase "through a glass darkly" (or similiar) was a popular colloquial saying in the first few centuries prior and after Christ.
What's your take on this, /lit/? Do you have any interesting information regarding this?
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Or maybe the experience of the Absolute is similar across cultures and religions
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Considering Paul was an intellectual immersed in the Greco-Roman world at a time when Platonism was very popular and accessible, I don't think it would be surprising if it was taken from Plato. He definitely wouldn't be unique among early Christians in being influenced by Platonic philosophy.
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>>7592355
Yeah, that was the option d), forgot to mention that. But still there's the dilemma with the absolutely same phrase being used.
Share your contrarian literary opinions
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Long books are never as good as short books by the same author.
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nothing wrong with massive sprawling quoted dialogue
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>>7584692
Gass is the best prose writer since Joyce.
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What are some publishing companies that are motivated more by art and its integrity as opposed to money? Any?
Independent record labels seem to be able to survive while also believing in what they support. I'm curious if there are equivalencies in the literature world.
(Preferably publishers that publish new stuff; maybe even a little experimental, avant-garde work?)
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Eraserhead Press
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New Directions
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Are there any good editions or guides to Paradise Lost that have a lot of footnotes or explain certain references in detail?
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Yes
every 11th grade high school English class
get off 4chan and do your homework
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>>7600589
Dude, I'm not even in high school, I just want to read Paradise Lost and have a decent grasp on the references so I understand things better.
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Anonymous
The Pale King discussion 2016-01-19 00:32:48 Post No.7600558
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The Pale King discussion 2016-01-19 00:32:48 Post No.7600558
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How unfinished is it?
Do you think plot was particularly unimportant to this piece?
Dave said that "the idea of plot interests [him]" and described The Pale King as "a series of setups for things to happen, but nothing actually happens".
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The only way he could publish an "unfinished" novel was to commit sudoku. It actually is finished.
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>>7600558
>le white college male literature meme
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very unfinished
at the time of reading it, kinda. but upon reflection no.
i interpreted it as:he intentionally wrote a boring book about the topic of boredom.
we don't all get to have these super interesting jobs, some of us are gonna be stuck doing shitty boring ass jobs. and that's what he made me feel i was reading about.
now of course times have changed and computers and shit mostly do this stuff but there are still boring jobs out there.
anyway i mostly liked the stories that took place outside of the "main" plot.
like the section about the kid who was so nice it made everyone want to kill him, or the sweaty guy explaining all the anxiety that goes along with hyperhidrosis. you rarely get to see perspectives like that.
and while i'm not a sweaty person myself, i can relate to the anxiousness that comes with always being aware of every part of your surrounding. where the exits are, who could possibly see you in their line of sight, etc.
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>he hasn't read Menexenus
Why not anon? It's Plato's best dialogue.
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Cratylus is better
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Have you read any good books or essays on education? I'm interested in education reform, coming from the Western world in which our education system (and entire socio-political hierarchy) is completely doomed if it keeps going in the same direction.
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>>7599514
no, no good books in the german education system.
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Pedagogy of the oppressed
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>>7599514
John Taylor Gatto
look into him OP
Just... gross.
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that is the point fuccboi
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>>7599506
If you didn't relate with this book, minus perhaps the womanizing bits, you don't belong here.
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Not that depressing desu
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Hey, /lit/. I need your opinion on a thought.
So I'm currently going through Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, and, other than having the time of my life, I can't stop noticing the obvious Borgean influences the book has. It feels like it plays perfectly just what made Borges so great, from the prose, to the plot developments and their presentation, to how imaginative Wolfe's world building is, down to the development of the protagonist and how it makes the reader think about it, it's as if someone had took Borge's great devices and weaved them into a great novel.
And that's just it, a novel. Borges never wrote one, and if I remember correctly in one of his introductions he lamented (if only in jest) never have been capable of. Was he lacking in some way? I remember someone commenting on here that he was the most influential writer of the 20th century alongside Joyce and Kafka. Were those other great writers lacking as well?
In one of his essays Borges makes it a point to reject defend a great work from its own flaws; he cites the Quixote specially, and criticizes its defenders for disregarding its clear flaws, or even placing praise were there was nothing to praise. For him a great book wasn't one that was perfect in every aspect, but one whose greatness overcome its own flaws, which made it something more than perfect. Thinking of /lit/, Dostoyevsky is brought to mind, and how often his detractors seem to miss exactly what people see in him.
So tell me /lit/, is what makes a writer truly great... what they lack? Is it the fact that their work is, so to say, incomplete, that makes people think of and be inspired by it, perhaps in hopes of completing it?
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>>7598762
>gene Wolfe
>having a modicum of talent to incorporate Borgesean motifs in his work
Genrefags please go
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That is a wonderful post, OP: the best I've seen here in a long while. I'm glad there are some on /lit/ who still enjoy reading books.
Personally, I doubt I could pontificate very coherently about Borges' influence on Wolfe, since I started with the latter and am only now starting to trawl the Argentine heresiarch's oeuvre. I will say, however, that this sentiment:
>So tell me /lit/, is what makes a writer truly great... what they lack? Is it the fact that their work is, so to say, incomplete, that makes people think of and be inspired by it, perhaps in hopes of completing it?
might pretty well encapsulate the nature of what literary dialogue exists between the two great authors, Borges and Wolfe (while I say so at a risk of sounding impious toward Gene's spiritual forbear, I do not mean to minimize Borges' imagination with this notion of metaphorical genealogy, by any means).
It may be that Borges greatest "oversight", his inability to write long works (and that foible's underpinning hyperactivity of focus) was in many ways not a flaw in his work at all, but an occult virtue; not only did it allow for such wonderful eclecticism as we read today in his collections, but it may also have been the very thing that made Gene Wolfe, his distant student, "possible" as a writer (synthesis, antithesis, etc).
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>>7598782
I can tell you studied law....what an utterly boring platitudes that say absolutely nothing of interest.
I'm an educator in America. I know English, and I'm in the process of learning Spanish to communicate with students, but I really don't like the language very much.
Recommend me books that will show me the good side of the language.
I'm fairly proficient, I'm a second year student at a nearby university where I'm being sponsored to get a degree in the language, but it's been purely out of a feeling of obligation.
I need the practice of active reading in the language anyway.
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>>7598176
Final del Juego - Julio Cortazar
Pedro Páramo - Juan Rulfo
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>>7598176
La vida es sueño-Calderon de la barca
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Jose Rizal: Noli Me Tangere
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Gimme some opinions. I've got these from Goodwill but don't want to waste time or space in case they aren't worth reading.
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Chuck 'em.
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>>7597298
I see what you did there.
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The powers that B.
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Hi /lit/,
This is a broad request, and the wiki wasn't helpful. I'm after recommendations for engaging non-fiction with dark/weird/morbid/insidious themes, could be anything from true crime, espionage, medical, historical, cult etc. E.g., on my list currently are things like Body of Secrets, Columbine, Ghost Wars, Lab 257, and Making of the Atomic Bomb. The fiction I enjoy is in the vein of Laird Barron, if that helps. Thanks!
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Anyone?
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>>7596645
Why would you want to read about these things? You sound mentally ill.
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>>7596645
That's a stupid as fuck request, but Destroyer 666 is sick desu senpai.
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Just finished The Stranger. Looking for discussion. What did you guys think of it?
Feel free to discuss Camus and Absurdism, too.
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>>7594531
Honestly, don't play the game people. You may be punished, but you'll be clean
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Man, people round here aren't gonna take kindly to this thread.
In short, the book is about how life can only hold meaning in the context of death. Meursault, an antisocial and a nihilist, couldn't grapple with death until he himself was faced with it, but his final moments of life were lived with passion. The book in a way aims to awaken you the reader to death in the way conviction awakens Meursault, a call to arms to live life passionately. Don't get down on the lack of meaning and wallow in self pity, death is an absolute, make something of your life as a reflection of it.
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>>7594543
You're talking about how Meursalt refused to live by absurd societal norms and was punished as a result?
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How do I better remember what I read? I was about to start shitposting about something I read, until I realized I had forgotten a good deal of its contents.
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>>7600315
ure a woman, yes?
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>>7600317
Nah
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Re-read
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First time visiting /lit in all of my years of browsing 4chan. I have mainly been lurking /b and have never posted any threads as I have felt no desire to do so, until now.
I can't tolerate the mass of cancer posted in /b and you guys honestly seem to know what you're talking about so I thought I'd come here in aid of advice.
Basically it has come to my attention that Peter Jackson is an asshole who poorly portrays the stories of middle-earth and in no way captures their full potential as masterpieces of the literary fantasy world.
I have come to the decision to purchase all of the necessary volumes of Tolkien's tales, money is not an issue and so what I'd like to know is what books to buy and in what order should I read them. If it's still unclear, I'm referring to The LOTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, UT etc.
I am well aware of his other work but I will not be reading them soon so they need not be mentioned ITT.
Any advice is greatly appreciated, please don't let me down /lit.
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Bumping with the prick that has basically already moulded my views of middle-earth. Save me /lit.
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Also if anyone who reads this is also familiar with Tolkien's books on middle-earth please share your views.
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This order:
The Hobbit
LoTR
The Silmarillion
You may also want to read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Fairy-Stories
And this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tolkien_Reader
>>7599809
No need to bump lad, this is a slow board.