AMERICANS ARE TOO DUMB FOR MICROSOFT

>>55991479
Indians can do monkey coding work and are dirt cheap. Assign 50 poos to one white human and you get a developing department.

>>55991521
You get Windows 10

>>55991521
but its in america and not a outsource
do america have like a minimum wage or companies just make up and pay people in dirt change

>>55991560
Minimum wage is, like, 10$ or 12$ per hour? No self-respecting developer from USA will work for anything less than 50$ per hour.

>>55991581

Minimum wage is $7.25/hr federally, and $9.47/hr in the state of Washington, where Microsoft has its headquarters.

>>55991479
>India scored almost dead last among the 74 countries tested. The results were apparently so embarrassing, the country pulled out of the program all together. Not surprisingly then, there isn’t a single Indian university that appears within the top 250 spots of the World University Rankings Survey.
B-but what about being on the Moon in 2020??

>>55991479
>But let’s say BigTech’s right and there aren’t enough young people going into STEM. Could it be that young American students are avoiding the STEM fields, particularly in computer science, due to years of stagnant wages? Could it be that the many millions of foreign white collar-workers who’ve been dropped into our labor markets have created a kind of internal brain drain where American students are actually exiting or avoiding the tech field for other career paths?

More to it than that, little shit. Many reasons other than .... dah! dah! semen ants

>>55991581
that's an exaggeration, most entry levelers would probably work for anything above $20, but still, this

>>55991560
We have a minimum wage to "protect" people, however the economics of it all makes it a bad joke.

I could live off of minimum, IF nothing bad ever happens and I am not in an expensive area.
If I miss a day or two from sickness or car breaks or just about anything else then, boom, I've gone over budget and am in real trouble. The average person in the U.S. has less then $400 of liquid holding to deal with any unforeseen problem, with a higher debt.

Also such protections only apply to certain types of workers, and the market force have been relabeling jobs to the other types which offer less protection. I had a commission job that on paper paid very well, but after company operating cost deductions I was getting about $2 an hour, and yes it was legal. But was too "overqualified" to get a "bad" job that actually paid better.

>>55991479
It pool and filter size. In the US lots of people can get a degree, and as a hiring company it can be hard to tell the good ones from the bad as their are so many of them, despite the smaller population. However with places like India you start with a much larger source population, filter that by all the steps to get to the US and get a US degree and the relatively small number statistically are more qualified then their US counter parts.

If we just made college harder to get into and harder to pass like it use to be then the value of US graduates would climb, as these dumb dead beats wouldn't be mixed into the final labor pool selection.

It a simple case of devaluing education standards over limited education access and selection. This is why things like trade schools are looking more appealing in the US as in reality there is more than one way to succeed in life, despite the broken mantra of "get a degree get a good job".

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>>55991479

>>55991924
>>It pool and filter size. In the US lots of people can get a degree, and as a hiring company it can be hard to tell the good ones from the bad as their are so many of them, despite the smaller population. However with places like India you start with a much larger source population, filter that by all the steps to get to the US and get a US degree and the relatively small number statistically are more qualified then their US counter parts.

But I doubt that they are paying those imported indians the same wage even if they have the same or better qualification.

Germany had that "green card" for IT people. Companies had to show that no one in germany was available for that job and the salary had to be really high for german standards.
They didn't get that many people into the country, although the industry always complains that there aren't enough qualified people.

In my opinion it's just another way to push wages down.

>>55992181
Oh, I am sure that is a sizeable factor as well.
Anything to lower wages is seen as a good business move, even when it undermines the economy that supports said business.

But I was looking at it from a qualification stand point as that is how many frame the issue.

Personally I am sick of how quickly labels get passed around. As I know borderline homeless people who could crush the "professional" competition if a few things were accommodated. And historically companies use to invest a lot more in training. They could solve many problem if they properly invested in training rather then hunting endlessly for some superhuman candidate. But expectations are unrealistic on both sides to be honest.
What makes it all the more tragic is that education for the sake of education is nearly gone, and that was were many major scientific discoverers were made.

>>55991479
India's brain drain is massive. They have this education system that is rather archaic but produces excellent people. It was explored in Michael Lewis's book "The New Thing". It goes like this
>child begins at elementary school
>upon graduation all best graders are given stipend & chance to continue in elite high school
>same thing for best graduates of elite highs to college
>same thing for undergrads to masters and docorates

And here is why it sucks: brain drain. All the best who come out on top as best and brightest are headhunted into states or get in easily via H1B. Education has declined since early 00's. Best don't stay to pass on wisdom.

It's like giant high-grade STEM factory for USA and Britain.

>>55991479
How do you even go about getting an h1b? How does a poo in loo from india get it? Does he randomly contact various US employers until one of them agrees to give him a job?

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I found this funny. Translate into all the language of countries that cuck America in the tech world.

>>55993367
from university/internship program, where i live here you can pick any European country or asia for the program, and that's how you get employ to any job you went into.

>>55991479
We barely have enough jobs to keep Americans working and they are importing Millions of foreigners.

Capitalism confirmed for anti-white.

>>55991547
\thread

Something happened

>>55993660
yes, good goy, it's capitalism. *rubs nose*

>>55993660
these jobs are low skilled jobs. kids just need to go off to college, learn a high level skill, and they will succeed just fine.

>>55991479
Indians are less lazy than American millennials.

I've tried to find capable programmers in Orange County, California.

Fucking impossible.

>>55996480
Indian living in India here. Stop generalising. That's only an assumption due to the fact that only the top Indians move to the United States to work.

>>55992181
its similar to the immigration debate in america

they always state:
>they do the jobs american's won't do
but they always leave off the second part to that statement:
>they do the jobs american's won't do, FOR SHIT PAY

>although the industry always complains that there aren't enough qualified people.
and they too always leave off the second part:
>there aren't enough qualified people who are willing to work for SHIT PAY

>>55992349
>rather then

This is like the tenth time I've seen this mistake today.

What's going on? Have we hit the Grammar Singularity and I didn't know about it?

Also weary vs wary. I've actually started hearing people *say* the wrong word. I get misspelling, but actually saying the wrong word boggles my mind. And I never once heard anyone do it before 2013.

>>55996506

How are you trying? How are you testing?

In my experience, employers are often absolutely terrible about recruitment[1] and even worse about evaluation. The tech interview scene is a cargo-cult joke where every dumbfuck assumes that if you don't know a SINGLE thing he knows, then you're obviously an idiot. And of course anything you know that they don't is assumed to be irrelevant or wrong.

[1] I worked for a company that was having trouble finding talent. I heard through a friend that a tech mailing list he was on got an email from our company. I looked at the email. It was like someone's fourth grader kid was put in charge. Shitty HTML content with random font sizes, line breaks, and way too much "we're super cool" dick stroking and not enough clear communication about what they're looking for. Turns out the building manager had been put in charge of recruitment.

>>55993660

(You) confirmed for fucking retarded. Yeah, Cletus and his 6 kids from 4 different wild boars is looking for a fucking development job at Microsoft and will be moving out of his tin shack next to a swamp in Alabama to go to Washington.

Its manual labor jobs you're talking about you cretin.

>>55996524
I forgot to add - the reasons that Americans are complaining is because Indians are willing to work for shit pay. There are plenty of other Indians that are extremely hardworking that go to the United States for a Masters degree and then try to get an internship.

There's plenty of info on /r/cscareerquestions if you anons are interested. https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/42715q/are_programmers_becoming_a_commodity_whats_to/ for example.

>>55996636
It was several years ago, for an American SEO company.

I was doing the software development for them, but they also wanted a local team so they flew me in to do some interviews.

In the end the whole company just moved to the Philippines instead.

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>>55996436
>problem: occupations are being flooded
>solution: flood colleges
I wonder who could be behind this post.

>>55996549
This.

It's not that Indians are acctually better.. Just that they're super cheap, many and can't leave you when you imported them.

>>55991479
It's so they can hire code slaves with shit wages that will do anything because they don't want to return to their shitholes.

It doesn't have anything to do with being smart or not.

>>55991581
Unless you have really good grades in school, you're gonna have to take a job for less than that to get your foot in the door

With the new imported code monkeys it's an employer's market in American tech

>>55991479
Is it really true H1Bs are paid minimum wage to shit out code?

Literally every large company seems to treat their developers as an unwanted liablility, a "forced expense", and they look for any way to get rid of them ASAP.

>>55996636
I haven't seen this pasta in a while. Super stale.

>>55996840
>get your foot in the door

If your name doesn't look indian, you won't be hired.
There's no spot on your resume where you can write how much you're willing to work for, and so your resume is simply thrown out because they (rightfully) assume that no skilled american would want to work in software dev for less than $40/hr.

>>55996940
The less you pay your workers the more dosh you make. It's called capitalism.

>>55996940
no they are not paid at all

they bring them to the USA, force them to live in a hotel or dorm 5-6-even7 indian men to an apartment

then they "pay" them a stipend that is mailed home (tax free! this part is huge!!!) to their ugly ugly wives

>>55997082
And how much are they sending home?

>>55996506
cost of living is too high what do you expect humans to do?

anyone in OC was born rich.

>>55997099
Oh they make six figured but only because

1)no benefits saves the company 500,000 over the average span of a lazy american workers career

2)no taxes effectively doubles takehome pay

>>55997218
That sounds pretty damn good desu.

How do they get away with paying no taxes tho?

>>55997245

Not american citizens senpai

>>55991479
No, they just don't want to pay us americans more. They want to keep wages low by importing and under paying indians.

Huh, I think this happened before. What was that thing called when we imported brown people and paid them practically nothing again?

>>55997245
the contract is with indians and the company pays indians directly

Hewlett Packard would be a good example
because they even pimp out the Indians as an "Enterprise Service" so Indians who pay no taxes end up doing state, federal, and local government work as well as many other unethical things

this is all thanks to our Congress and hillary clinton by the way, not even shilling

>lower the wages until no one wants to work for you
>use lack of workers to justify hiring pajeet

>>55997292
dont forget
>entry level work junior developer must have Master degree and 15 years experience hands on with my specific technology
>americans are too lazy to apply

you all faggets forget ms is a corporation, not a charity.

are you fucking commies or what. if you don't like it, you can get out.

go start your own business and give an ebtry salary of 300k starting if you are such a benevolent employers

>>55997276
Back then, you could get away with withholding payment till the end of the month and then calling immigration to deport them all so you didn't have to pay them.

Somehow I think american tech companies missed the point.

>>55997357
You don't have to be a charity to not shit on your employees.

>>55997397
But I want to make more money and they're preventing me from doing so.

>>55997357

Our economy was better off when we had better protectionism. The sort of Libertarian view really breaks down when you realize that once you have money and power (Microsoft) that you can fuck over the little guy very easily.

>>55991479
H1-B work is far cheaper. You can have a guy by the balls to work crazy overtime and weekends for as little as $60,000. Since he has to leave the US if you fire him, he makes work his life. That's a lot of control that you can get for paying ~$10K to a legal firm for three years of an H1-B (plus another three on a much easier renewal).

>>55992181
They don't pay the same wage. Microsoft is not bad, but Infosys? TCL? Other similar companies? They abuse the fuck out of it.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/3004501/h1b/proof-that-h-1b-visa-abuse-is-rampant-in-tech.html

The problem is if you pay an H1-B worker 60K or more a year you basically have to present no evidence that you're actually not displacing an american and the government has no teeth to enforce that you aren't paying the prevailing wage.

>>55993367
You interview with a company (American or not) who has American operations. If they like you, they apply for the H1-B on your behalf.

>>55997282
>>55996940
>>55997082
H1-B employers have to pay the same taxes as resident aliens. There's no way to file an H1-B visa and not do it. If you get approved for an H1-B you have to tell them the wage you pay, if you don't withhold the taxes then Uncle Sam fucks the company up.

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Pajeet > Chad

>>55996990
50 an hour is 100k a year, 40 an hour is about 80k a year
No one makes that much starting out unless you're graduating top of your class at an amazing school

I seriously hope you're memeing because no one is gonna hire anyone right out of school for over 60-65k a year

>>55998111
>No one makes that much starting out unless you're graduating top of your class at an amazing school
This is pretty standard even at a great school with great grades. Most companies have caps on how much new hires can be paid if they have, say, a Bachelor's degree from a US school, and they're usually in the neighborhood of $60-$65K as you said. Even in good jobs (e.g. consulting).

>>55991521
not to mention they cant quit microsoft and go work for google because the way the immigration system works their visa is only valid as long as they work for the company that hires them and nothing else, if they are caught seeking employment elsewhere they will be booted out of the country. its like having a slave.

Microsoft is right, after all they want to vote for trump so they can't be trusted with actual paying jobs.

>>55997868
not payroll tax why are you obfuscating the issue unless... H-Hillary is that you? Woah you are in the wrong place...

>>55991479
Every company makes up lies like that to justify hiring cheap foreigners instead of Americans. This is why we need to elect Trump who is anti-TPP instead of Hillary or Johnson who are globalist shills who will support TPP.

>>55998635
>This is why we need to elect Trump
*vomits*

>>55998618
Well, payroll tax is around 30%. And if they send the money home then it's less being spent in our economy. And them getting lower wages generally devalues wages in IT.

>>55998576
If you can find another employer willing to sponsor your visa, another company (at their own expense) can file a petition to transfer your visa to them with USCIS. Only the largest employers can afford it and generally such large employers try to avoid stepping on each others feet in that regard.

>>55996594
You forgot to mention how he keeps saying "use to" when it's "used to"

>>55991479
>why is it importing so many people from India?
Because satya Nutella, Sunday Picha and others in the same position as them are indians also muh "diversity"

>>55998650
His policies are great for the American people since he's a nationalist who will crack down on illegal immigration, won't take migrants from terrorist havens, is against trade deals that take our jobs and slash our wages, and wants to preserve the Constitution. Hillary and Johnson are pro-TPP, pro-open-borders, pro-amnesty, and anti-gun-rights.

Fuck Microsoft spyware.

The CEO of Microshit right now is an Indian. What do you expect from the guy?

>>55998842
You realize he's not doing shit right? Did you vote for class presidents that promised 3 day weekend and putting snack machines in every classroom too?

Politicians are all liars, the best and only reason to vote for trump is that it's a giant middle finger to the entire process and shows discontent for the political system.

>implying 10 bad developers > 1 good developer

It's as if companies don't have thinking people in HR at all.

Imagine hiring 30 incompetent civil engineers in place of three well educated and experienced ones. Guess what happens?

A clusterfuck, that's what happens. Whatever your engineers will create will be a mess to build, a mess to maintain, and a mess to use.

Same goes for software. If software is made by shit engineers you end up with millions of lines of spaghetti code that does the same thing as 500 lines of well written code by a good engineer. And as time goes by and more and more "features" are added the code becomes more and more bloated and it becomes more expensive to maintain it and even more expensive to add new things to it.

Think of it like this. You could hire 3 good programmers to make a system for you, and then let them maintain and improve it for the next, say, 2 years, and you might have to hire an additional 2 or 3 new engineers.

OR you could hire 30 pajeets and get a huge pile of spaghetti code and as it grows you have to hire additional 10 pajeets every month.

Great plan.

>>55999471
Coding is kind of an art, no matter how many paper certs or years experience you can be great or shitty, which defies a lot of other areas where more education or practical work experience = much more likely to correlate to better job performance.

I end up working with companies who hire 4 indians for the price of one american. They have no creative thought or willingness to do anything that isn't thoroughly documented. Need the same exact task performed 1,000+ times where writing the guide takes five minutes? Offshore guys can do it. Need them to figure something out? Good luck. You end up having the onshore resources up their ass.

As a software consultant who gets billed at ~$3,000 USD/day to my clients by the company I work for, I spend a LOT of my time cleaning up messes caused by offshore fucking things up.

>>55998920
I expect him to show the shithole MS has become

>>55999954
Do you have some horror stories of indians writing convoluted shit?

>>56000311
Oh dear, I mainly deal in enterprise software, so my expertise is in fixing configuration, recovering data, and breaking the news on irrevocable damage that offshore has done to systems. I have a couple anecdotes that I could share:

>customer is doing a major version upgrade of the system. the system is comprised of components that get upgraded. after the upgrade, it ships with major version 1, minor version 2, patch 0, and they need to go to major 1 minor 2 patch 6
>Pajeet on H1B asks if they can go to Major 1 minor 3. I tell them no, the rest of the components won't work with it.
>I know this pajeet well and if I don't put it in writing then he'll do it and say I told him to do it verbally
>I get it in writing
>two months later
>they do the upgrade in production
>they upgrade and upgrade to major 1 minor 3, just like I said they couldn't do
>this breaks major amounts of functionality in the application, but reverting would be a SOX compliance issue, so they can't
>downgrades of that component are not supported: you have to upgrade to consistent (not possible for many months) or revert to good backup
>that functionality remains broken for about eight months (when they can plan + time their next upgrade)

Here's another
>customer is explaining of extreme slowness in their application
>it's not an application that traditionally receieves large portions of customized (customer) code, so it's usually either sizing/configuration by the customer...but sometimes it's inefficient code
>know large parts of certain portions of the application are actually coded in India

>viewing one part of the system, it's so slow it won't load
>the system work on, its role is to connect to other systems in the environment for other tasks
>internal systems usually have 1-5 systems hooked up
>this customer has over 400 systems and over 1500 hosts
>they get to a certain page and it won't load
>run a trace, see the program causing it
>(to be continued, next post)

>>56000434 continued
>the application is single pulling SQL records one at a time from the DB
>It needs about 4,000 rows, out of a table with millions of records
>db response time is 2ms, network time 2ms, application time 30 ms per record
This was a common theme, part of it was a disconnect in the size of systems that were developed on and the size of the systems customers ran (it was supposed to be scaleable and in some ways it was, others it wasn't). I actually met the lead architect for the product and told him that the product is great, function is great, but it hits a scalability limit quickly and most of the releases over the last two years put a serious emphasis on reigning in the performance and watching the quality of new code.

Here's a really good one
>in the US midwest, 2013. customer is working on an effort on the system I work on. they want to hire somebody with experience to maintain it so it doesn't go to shit
>OK, I'm on board with this; I don't want to have something get set up for it to fall apart
>They go to $majorityIndianStaffing company and ask if they have a guy in $mySkillset
>of course
>they provide a resume
>it makes zero sense. He claims more experience with the version of the system (a major overhaul) than it existed for in any form (alpha, beta, etc.) and the skillsets he claimed within the system are so wide that he's basically claiming to be jesus. imagine somebody claiming to be an olympic champion at soccer, fencing, gymnastics, swimming, etc. all at once (and others read like he ripped them off promotional material)
>we recommend the client give us another resume and pass on this guy
>they decide they want to phone interview them, and ask us (bear in mind, I work for the company that develops the software) to be on the call
>we get on the call
>deep voiced indian guy with a somewhat pronounced accent gets on the call
>usual shoot the shit stuff at the start of the interview
>then the practical knowledge starts.
one more post

>>56000562 continued
>we have prepared questions for the customer to ask the guy
>we're not asking him for default passwords or esoteric menus; we're asking him basic questions in the area he *claimed* to have experience in (in some areas I didn't bill myself as an expert, but if you asked me what $capability did in the product, I could easily tell you an elevator pitch in 2-3 sentences. He claimed to have SET UP those things and maintained them)
>ask him about $featureA
>gives a long, rambling answer that sounds like he read it from a product whitepaper. It's not totally wrong, but I'm not wowed.
>ask him about $featureB.
>$featureB is from a different part of the product, and while good, it's essentially unrelated to $featureA
>gives a long, rambling answer essentially the same as the first one. it's totally wrong and not applicable in this context
>ask about several other things
>repeat and rinse
>phone interview ends, client asks us what we think
>we recommend they interview another candidate, and candidly tell them the interview didn't make sense.

Best part here.
>>Oh, $anon, you remember $pajeet from the phone interview, right?
>Hi $pajeet
>>Hello anon
>in a relatively high pitched voice with no accent
>the guy the $indianStaffingFirm sent WASN'T EVEN THE GUY WHO TOOK THE PHONE INTERVIEW
>it's clear he has minimal experience with the company my product makes and none directly with the one I work on
>client tells me to bring him up to speed, essentially meaning they're paying me to teach a resource that isn't even theirs
>Find out they pay $50/hr for this guy
>leave the customer after the work I did is done, phase 1 is considered a success

>talk to the people on the customer account one year later
>the customer couldn't maintain what I set up because they had no one qualified
>this ended up with the CIO getting ousted.
I have a few more quick one liners about pajeets for another post.

>>56000666 here
Sorry for a couple typos (swapped words) in the last post but I think they're obvious (company my product makes -> products my company makes is really the one).

Here are some quicker anecdotes
>go to customer on west coast
>offshore decides to delete something critical without knowing what it is
>the product is "[keyword] Manager", and he deleted [keyword]
>have to explain that there is over a year of data loss from this (nothing that would get them in audit trouble luckily, but data they had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to get [analysis, documentation, etc]

>go to customer on east coast
>they have a data center in the midwest and pay $bigCompany to run their servers
>production goes down just after working hours on a friday, technically not on call but I get on, they can't ship any goods or anything
>get shit on until 2AM about how our software isn't working
>its clear to me and the technical guys that the application is fine and the disk access times are fucked
>at 2AM, $bigCompany doing the hosting concedes that offshore in Bangalore started a SAN-to-SAN migration without telling anyone, but it was lowest priority
>tell them to pause it
>application recovers immediately

Those are just some anecdotes of mine dealing with offshore. The bigger problem is when they do report problems they don't give any detail

>>hey anon, $pajeet submitted a ticket to your company about $xyz not working
>open ticket
>>Ticket # 123456: function not work
>description: when click tab the information seems doubtful. please do needful and revert. see attachment
>there is no attachment
>send it back to them asking for more detail
>takes days
>$pajeet sends attachment
>it's a low resolution screenshot where the problem is not clear and there are no steps to reproduce
>repeat and rinse, it's like pulling teeth

>>55996594
>>55998776
Three times last week I saw someone write "walaa" when they meant "voila". I blame smartphones and social media bubble effects.

>>55996506
You don't pay enough for them to bother living there.

>>56000888
Double trips for truth

>>56000844
I am sorry to be the baron of bad news, but you seem buttered, so allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies, and are more than just ice king on the cake. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite.

So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality.

I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the fax, instead of making a half-harded effort. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it's a peach of cake.

Meh, it always goes like that, first they replace all the real developers with Indian code monkeys. Then their product starts tanking, because it's being shitified by those new workers, they don't know what the hell they are doing. In the end the company either fails or starts hiring real developers again. The beancounters always repeat the same mistakes.

>>55993390
Holy fuck, the Chinese article is literally just one sentence, the gurajati one is longer than the english one.

>>56000748
I love these stories

>>56000844
maybe they're from /ck/ and were just memeing around

>>56000748
>The bigger problem is when they do report problems they don't give any detail
This is an ongoing issue everywhere. Even at Microsoft, they don't give details when they submit a ticket to say, the SQL product group.

Then once you pick up the ticket, even 5 minutes after they cut it, you get a ping over IM "Hello, may I know the status please?!" I've started responding simply "No" and set as DND.

Fuck, I have 15 tickets I'm actively working, and yours isn't even a SEV B, so I'll get to it when I have time.

>>56000748
Yeah great stories. Whenever my company's Indians say, 'do the needful', I always chuckle. Sounds like the mafia or something.

>>55998111
I got an offer for $70k right out of school, no real experience (was a TA for a year but that's it), no projects that weren't done in school, no connections (unless talking to a recruiter at a job fair counts).

>>55997357
MS lobbying billions for H1B1 laws that favor MS is not a free market you fucking retard.

>>55997362

i think he's talking about the 1850s not the 1950s lel

>>55991479
>But let’s say BigTech’s right and there aren’t enough young people going into STEM.

Is this an issue in America?

Here it's the opposite, there are too many people going into STEM. It'ss starting to overcrowd the market and basically cause a repeat of what happened with standard degrees. Decades ago, college was not an expectation for all, it was a goal for the upper echelon. Most people worked out of high school.

Then college became an expectation and degrees became expensive papers to cherish while you worked at McDonalds. Because fucking everyone had one..

The same shit is starting to happen with STEM here

>>55991479

I'm late to the thread and don't know if others may have stated this but the whole 'not enough skilled workers in the U.S.' excuse is a lie.

The reason they want relaxed H1B policies is so that they can bring in CHEAPER labor. No bull shitting about it.

>>55998111
I make twice that straight out of school. My classmates also make around that much. Any large tech company like MS or Facebook will pay you 150k a year.

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>>55998111
Got hired by my company 6 months before graduation at $41k. At the 1 year mark, 6 months post grad and with proof of having obtained a degree, they bumped be to $65k. My school is known regionally, but it's nothing special... I just had lots of internships and *relevant* side hustles to put on my CV.

>>55998111
I barely program in anything other than Python and R and got 71k right out of school

>cost of everything tripled
>wages still the same as 1992

What other country should I move to /g/? I cant stand how shit america has become.

You know, I don't think that this whole deal is because of the idea that it's "cheaper". If they wanted that, they would just make an office in India. Herre, they're held to the same standard for pay as other developers as far as I know.

The more important factor is how fucking cutthroat Microsoft's development teams are, which suits itself absolutely perfectly to the ideals of a country with as dense of a population as India. They don't give a shit about anything other than winning.

>>55998576
Wow, that's actually really shitty for them (pun not intended). They should be able to at least look for other work after a few years.

>>56003604
lol that's nothing I make $300k a year ($500k with benefits) straight out of school. didn't even have 4.0 GPA nor any work experience prior

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>>56004756
Indian here, this is how the nearest Microsoft office looks like.

>>56000000

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>>55991479
Why does the American people still tolerate that narcissistic shit ass company? God damn the arrogance alone should've been an scandal...

>>56005078
>Why does the American people
Sorry bud, that grammatical error just toasted your point.

>>56005007
That just enforces my second point, then. They certainly like the lower cost, but if they're still bringing them to the US they mush think that it's beneficial to the workers they already have.

>>56005160
What error, Dumby?

>>56005242
>Why does the American people
t. ESL

>>56005267
It's not an error

>>56005241
I'm not someone who's in software, but from what I've seen the argument is that the Indians the Americans are complaining about are the type that will just work for shit-tier pay. This type is known as the "H1-B abusers". There's a large social status associated if you go to America as well and Indians care about that a lot.

The other type are the legitimate H1-B users, the Indians that get a degree here in India, then go to America for a Masters degree then try to find a job. This is what the H1-B is supposed to be primarily used for.

>>56005348
It's not something that any native speaker would say.

>>56005348
>>56005382
It's that "the American people" is singular. in the same vein that "a people like the American people" is valid.

>>56005382
Yes they would, especially the media

>>55991924
>If we just made college harder to get into and harder to pass like it use to be then the value of US graduates would climb, as these dumb dead beats wouldn't be mixed into the final labor pool selection.

>we need moar ______ in coding
>we need moar ______ in STEM
thanks SJW's

>>56005521
Hey look, a moron!

>>56005668
>>56005267
>t. ESL

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>>56005729
>Troll

>>56005741
Strong argument you got there.

>>56005776
You can't trick me, bruh

>>56005791
Oh no, I'm trying to trick you into supporting your point, what a troll I am.
>>>/int/

>>56005839
>>>/b/
Now go away

>>56005923
You know what, I'm picking my hill to die on.
I misdirected you. Go back to redd.it where people only have to use personal downvote brigades to feel good about their opinions and wind arguments, instead of support their own arguments like any reasonable person.
Go back to your path away from personal betterment, moving us towards the fake idea of 4chan you call "the asshole of the internet".
Fuck you.

>>56006044
>>>/r9k/
No, go kys you ignorant faggot. Trying to trick me with your bait. Who are you trying to fool here? George W. Bush? Oh and the irony is amazing too, jackass.

>>56006408
>ignorant
This is some top tier projecting, anon.
>irony
You can't convince anyone with just insults, either.

>>56006458
You haven't proven me wrong though, liar. So stop the hypocrisy or surrender already. Your projection of butthurt won't work.

>>56006502
>You haven't proven me wrong though
refute this.
>>56005521

>>56006526
It's wrong because of the way I'm using that sentence of mine. "Why does..." is correct because I'm including the activity from the target noun. Using "a people from the American people" makes no sense, hell it sounds foreign/weird too.

>>56006607
I'm sorry, I had it wrong. You still did, though.
The only context that "does" works there is "why does he/she". which is singular and present tense. For anything else it's "do". It's a bit of an idiosyncrasy, but that's how people talk. Otherwise, to a native speaker, it sounds weird.

Also
>"a people from the American people"
Is not the same meaning of what I said at all.

>>55991479
Welp, I'm a TrumpTrumpet now.

>>56006687
No it works period, but the latter implies some personal question. In which I wanted to avoid and such

>>56006744
Two people thought it sounds fucking weird, man. I wasn't the first one to reply to you.
"does" has an inferred present tense, which doesn't make sense when put next to "do", which is more generic in my mind.
>the latter implies some personal question.
only for "why do you". "why do they" is perfectly valid.
It's a bit of a grammatical nightmare for a second language, I see that now, but i would still never think of saying "does" in that context.

>>55998635
I hate to break it to you but all the candidates are complete shit and will in some way fuck over the middle class and poor.

>>56006800
not-so-ninja fix
>"why do they" is perfectly valid.
*when talking to someone else besides "they". It's actually plural, as well.

>>56006800
Sorry for overreacting. Anyway, yeah I understand that. "Does" is used less than "do" in written form than in speech. And that's regardless of formal or informal discussion. While in my sentence, "does" could invoke attitude if spoken out loud by someone. But it doesn't make it incorrect.

>>56006866
I've had enough Indian lecturers to know how hard the finer parts of English grammar are, and I gotta say, this is exactly the sort of thing that I would be trying to figure out what you were saying instead of listening to the lesson. It's annoying as hell to try and deal with. I would really avoid using it that way again if I were you, right or not.

Well they're clearly not hiring huge amounts of these people for developer positions, considering how easy it is to get one if you've got a degree.

Maybe it's less brain drain and more not enough people go into tech.

>>56006938
Lolwut? HAhaa

>>56000562
>than it existed for in any form
That's like the jobs that required you 5 years of experience with Java in 1997.

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>>56002900
>mfw I have the people writing tickets on the other side of the corridor most of the time and I can tell them personally to fuck off until they write a normal description if the bug is consistent

>>55991924
>overqualified
What does that even mean? I've never encountered this term here, in Eastern Europe. But maybe I was just lucky.

>>55991547
that was a quick thread, only 2 replies.

>>56007782
It means you have lots of experience and lots of options.

You expect to be paid well and you have no real reason to stick around in an entry level job and they know that.

It's why mcdonalds doesn't hire people who put down that they're pursuing a degree, because they'll quit as soon as possible for greener pastures.

>>56007782
For HR being overqualified means you're more likely to ditch their job to get a better one because you can.
This is entirely false because if you had a better job you'd be there already. But you can't have HR and logic in the same room together.