/osrg/ OSR General - Actin Fast Edition

File: Crystal-Dragon Mountains Encounters OSR.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

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As requested, mountain encounters.

This file is actually as old as May 2016, since I began it for an Anon who requested a mountain encounters infested with crystals and dragons. Sorry it took so long

Please enjoy~

File: 1 Page Dungeon - Maezar - Dungeon of Abkadev.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

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>>51199729
Thanks! Not the original requester but cool!
>>51199693
>You have no time to prep, what's you're go-to scenario?
Recently I've been fond of those one page adventures if I have basically no prep time. Pic related has been the funnest.

Is it wrong to use enemies or traps that destroy or ruin the party members' equipment?

>>51199881
Of course not.

>>51199881
Why would it be?

You basically have three choices when it comes to consequences:
1) Death & Damage Nice name for a retroclone
2) Disfigurement & Dismemberment Another nice name
3) Losing precious stuff

>>51200001

>All others use D&D except items
Destruction & Desiccation?
Disintegration & Devaluation?
Deletion & Dulling?
Disenchantment & Debris?

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So I'm not exactly sure *what* classes or races or whatever I'm going to use for my science fiction OSR game, but what I do know is I want them to be useful for multiple things.

Basically does anybody else like the idea of each class being both good at a ship related task (since I'd imagine a lot of time 'space crawling' is spent in a ship') as well as their normal class roll?

For instance;
>Soldiers (Fighters) are good at weapon stations
>Smugglers (Thieves) are good at driving the ship
>Technicians (MUs?) are good at repairing the ship
>Weird mystic psychic classes (Cleric??) are good at shields or sensors?

I'd like some ideas for this, to avoid implementing a useless 'pilot' class.

>>51200066
Are shields and sensors going to be active things or passive?

>>51200074

I'd make it active for purposes of engagement.

OR you can let the snarky ship AI handle it buts its a lot worse then the players doing it by hand of course.

>>51200017
Destruction & Devaluation.
You either lose your shit or it becomes less valuable(like cracked gems).

>>51200066
I kind of wanna see ironic ray guns now.

>>51200089
>Destruction & Devaluation
That what happens to local economy after adventurers bring bags of gold from those deadly dungeons of doom.

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>>51200103

I just named the picture that picture that to show that what the ray guns look like in the sci-fi setting "unironically".

>>51199693
Troll decides to mess with party. Big thing, nasty combat threat, regenerates all chip damage done in brief encounters, but intelligent, sneaky and cunning. Mostly just wants to eat the party's horses.

Drop that in to whatever situation we were in last time, to buy time for me to get more creative.

>>51199870
Hehe, that does look like fun. It's a bit linear to my taste but I like the open-endedness of the encounters/challenges. How did your party do?

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Any of you have examples of a sci fi dungeon module?
Possibly for space opera setting? I'm just curious.

>>51200186
They died. Fire room was just something they could not wrap their head around.

>>51200066
>Basically does anybody else like the idea of each class being both good at a ship related task (since I'd imagine a lot of time 'space crawling' is spent in a ship') as well as their normal class roll?
Strongly yes. Everyone has to be able to participate in each major activity of the game. (Note that by "activity" I mean on the scale of "dungeon crawling", not "combat")

>>51199870
Why does it have the grid version of the map when I open it in my browser?

>>51200640
what do you mean, exactly..?

>>51200719
He presumably means the fact that the thumbnail shows an isometric map, but the PDF also contains a typical top-down grid map, overlaid on the isometric. I see both of them on top of one another in-browser myself.

>>51200066
1) look at the Stars Without Number Skyward Steel supplement for different crew stations
2) maybe let them pick a parallel ship-class rather than tying it to their main class, or give them a choice out of two or three, with some overlap between D&D classes?

>>51199693
>I don't think DDG ever had stats for Morgoth, and Fingolfin wouldn't be a LBB Elf - first age elves are a bit too metal for that
Even just going by Gygax's reasons for level caps, it makes perfect sense that in the First Age elves had no level caps. The level cap *is* their power diminishing on Middle-Earth. They're leaving for Aman so they can gain more Fighting-Man levels.

Weirdly, this makes a lot of sense with how it's portrayed and described in the various books. After all, lots of elves are clearly still powerful; they're clearly not losing that but their ability to get even better. Also, it's fairly consistent that the oldest and most powerful elves are the most assmangled about it.

>>51201379
D'oh, that was supposed to be a reply to >>51201038 in the old thread.

>>51195235

Instead of talking about minimalism, can we talk about the fucking enraging practice of every single retroclone and OSR blog it seems these days punishing the Wizard for just casting basic fucking spells?

Why does every game need to have 'so gritty and dark' magic system where if you roll badly on a spell you get your dick melted off?

Let the Wizard be a fucking Wizard. Jesus Christ.

>>51200640
>>51200940

The browser's PDF reader is merging the layers when displaying the document, revealing the hidden "flat map" layer underneath the "isometric map" layer.
Opening the file in any decent PDF reader fixes this issue.

>>51201440
>Why does every game need to have 'so gritty and dark' magic system where if you roll badly on a spell you get your dick melted off?
It's the flavor of the moment. We started with "classic D&D fantasy game", then we went gonzo/weird shit like Yoon-Suin and A Red Pleasant Land, and now we are in the "gritty and dark medieval fantasy" with stuff like Dark Albion. I wonder what will come next...

>>51202022
Alright, but why is it IN the pdf

>>51201440
I think it's the influence from LotFP, personally. It drew a lot of people in, and did it with a gothic/just gross horror vibe, so they want CAS necromancers and CoC sorcerors meddling with forces they can't possibly comprehend. So that's what they try to design.

>>51202022
>Opening the file in any decent PDF reader fixes this issue.
>tfw opening the file in Preview does not fix this issue

>>51200001
there are way more possible negative consequences for traps:
- displacement (eg falling down a shaft to another level)
- triggering an alarm alerting enemies nearby
- temporary imprisonment, or delaying your progress (especially bad if you're being chased or there's a time limit)
- splitting up the party
- poison/hallucination/delirium
- destruction of the environment (eg a tunnel cave-ins, broken rope bridges, all lights go out)
- temporary inconveniences, eg being covered in foul-smelling mud or slippery oil
- social consequences (you just broke most sacred relic in the Church of the Purple Ghouls, now they consider you a blasphemer of the highest order)

>>51201440
Which games even do that? If you're talking about Dungeon Crawl Classics then I actually think the wizard is stronger than a normal D&D one.

>reading Raggi's blog
>"dude LoFTP is SOOOO transgressive we show tits and dicks and pussies not like the stuff dumb americans buy"
>"w-well i didn't put non-whites in the art because i'd have to write in slavery of non-whites and slavery is bad :( "

What a cuck.

>>51202780
He also prefaced one of this modules with a big smug speech about how he'll write whatever offensive shit he likes and he's happy stupid people are taking offense to it, inviting everyone to criticize it and do their worst... then when it appeared like one distributor may remove his offensive products from the shelves he threw a MASSIVE shitfit crying out to all his fans to go out and fight the bane of censorship...

>>51202986

Nothing about that is hypocritical. He wants to write offensive shit, he wants people to get offended, and he doesn't want to be censored. You can't just say because he 'cried' to his fans that makes him a baby, he didn't want to be censored. What the fuck kind of insult towards Reggi are you trying to make here?

>>51203027
The only problem is that it's not censorship to disagree to sell something in your store. The store owner has the right to do that. What's hypocritical is that Raggi basically bragged about how offensive his writing is, but when faced with the consequences of that (namely, that some people may be unwilling to display it on their shelves) he broke down.

>>51203027
I'm not that guy but I don't think refusing to distribute offensive material is the same as censorship.

>>51203027

Well, the distributors are a private company. It's not really censorship to choose not to sell a thing you don't have to legally sell.

He has the freedom to write what he wants. They have the freedom to not sell it.

Are we really starting this Raggi discussion again? Are all threads gonna be like this from now on?

So /osrg/, how long was it since you ran or played a session? How did it go?

>>51203258
A week
Bad

Next question, which oldschool monster is you're waifu?

>>51203258

The last time I ran an OSR game our elf blew himself to pieces by setting off his powder horns because if he didn't, the goblins in the dungeon were going to swarm over the party and it would have been a TPK.

Crazy bastard. The Cleric now has PTSD and is less racist toward elves.

>>51203363
Griffons.
Proud, Royal, and Brutal. Amazing beasts.

>>51202986
>when it appeared like one distributor may remove his offensive products from the shelves he threw a MASSIVE shitfit
That wasn't even what happened, remtard. Someone ELSE's product got pulled from RPGnow (which is a virtual monopoly) and he said he'd pull all of his own stuff in retaliation if they didn't reverse the decision, despite RPGnow being one of his main sources of income.

In other words he put his own livelihood on the line for the sake of the principle of openness, but I guess that makes you a whining bitch, huh.

>>51203390
>blowing yourself up on purpose to save your friends
That's a good story. Metal.
Will you give him a bonus in his next chargen?

>>51203699
He still cried "censorship" over a business' decision not to sell shit they found distasteful. At best, that was a cheap cry for attention and nothing more.

>>51203728

I'll ask him, but likely he won't want one. He's been pretty adamant about following what he sees as the "spirit" of OSR, which is to play as is (unless a ruling needs to be made) and take the bad alongside the good.

Overall, my group is great. Love those guys. Now, if I could only get them to run OSR rather than talk about running OSR...

Does anyone besides Dyson make generic, unkeyed dungeon maps I can stock?

Love the guy's work but I'd like some more variety (plus all the cross-hatching is starting to hurt my eyes).

im an outsider, can someone try to explain rulings vs rules to me, without ever using the words "rulings" or "rules"? i've had a friend try to tell me about it but it just seems like semantics

>>51204929

The book tells you to do things (take turns, roll dice, etc.). Sometimes the book doesn't tell you what to do in a given situation, so you make something up (which might involve taking turns, rolling dice, or something differently entirely). You should stick with what you've made up when the same situation arises later.

>>51204929
Rules: "It says in the rules that if someone drowns and fails their save, they go to 0 hitpoints. Because of that, if I have negative hp and drown then I should be able to heal myself. It should work because that's what the rules say."

Rulings: "That's fucking stupid, you just drown and die."

>>51200546

Hit up the traveller thread, dig under classic GDW modules, and look at Death Station or Shadows. A lot of the Judges Guild modules for Traveller were basically dungeon crawls, too.

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>>51200546
Well, there's the Eld dungeon in Slumbering Ursine Dunes. Research station sending out an SOS, lotsa treasure, lotsa death. Judges' Guild made a shitload of modules for Traveller as well, and most of them are for their own psuedo-setting instead of the main-line Traveller Imperium

>>51204929
>can someone try to explain rulings vs rules to me Sure.
>without ever using the words "rulings" or "rules"
No, that's a ridiculous constraint, I'd have to play madlibs.

Here goes:
"Rulings" are on-the-spot decisions by the referee about how to resolve a particular specific situation or issue. He may or may not opt to write these down as guidance for future resolution, but either way it's understood that he's not beholden to them moving forward.

"Rules" are procedures defined in advance for how to resolve every instance of one type of situation, and the referee is expected to either stick to these, or change them in advance and let the players know. He may improvise for specific conditions (e.g. inventing modifiers to rolls) but these improvisations are expected to be small-scale.

"Rulings not rules" is consequently about using Type A resolution in preference to Type B as much as possible. Rules will still be defined for the core mechanics of the game and especially those elements which players have some need of being able to predict (such as character generation), but these are expected to both be kept relatively few and, crucially, to also be subject to modification by rulings, so that for instance if you want to play a dragon the referee will ad-hoc a Dragon class, yet, the next time someone wants to play one, he might not be allowed to use the same class (because it was too good, or too bad, or the referee just didn't like how it played). The player would likely still be allowed to play a dragon, just not necessarily a Dragon.

Or again, maybe the referee resolves getting out of one net trap one way, but later resolves another net trap a different way. This might be because he changed his mind on what made sense, because the traps are subtly different, or because he couldn't be bothered to remember how he handled something that trivial last time: it doesn't matter, as long as the resolution method makes sense at the table at that moment.

>>51205099

>their own psuedo-setting

JG Traveller products were part of the big "land grant" project of the Classic era, where each publisher was granted their own sector of the map to develop as they saw fit.
It's true that they were pretty loose with canon, but canon was itself pretty loose at the time anyway. I don't mind the canon bending so much as the fact that most of them are pretty crappy adventures. FASA was far better.

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>>51203258
>So /osrg/, how long was it since you ran or played a session? How did it go?
July, sadly. Scheduling has been a bitch, since most of my players are adults.

Ran Scenic Dunnsmouth. Had one player literally curled up in the corner of the room freaking, another's character get dragged off by a hot spider-chick into a cave for consumption and bedding until the insane Irish pirate pulled guns on her. They wandered into a crypt full of bog-mummies, which had everyone freaking the fuck out.
The party also convinced a mad Orthodox priest that their (Moslem) Cleric was a) Orthodox, and b) his relief, sent from Constantinople itself. Fun so far. The party are now debating just sneaking back to their boat and getting the fuck out of Dodge before the locals figure out what's up, or going back in and burning the whole damned place to the ground one incestuous spider-fucker at a time.

>>51203699
>>51203053
>>51203039
>>51203052
>>51203729
Imagine that a record label refuses to distribute a minor artists' first EP for "content concerns", and an artist who routinely charts #1 and has multiple titles in the top twenty of all time for the studio with >even more offensive< content says "that's hypocritical bullshit, publish him or I pull out". Is that wrong? Hell no, it's exercising market power to bring a distributor to heel. It's exactly the same as boycotting, or (indeed) refusing to serve someone, and part of the process of the market.

>>51204929
Legalism and the word of the law vs improvisation and spirit of the law.

>>51205321
>Hell no, it's exercising market power to bring a distributor to heel. It's exactly the same as boycotting, or (indeed) refusing to serve someone, and part of the process of the market.
Yes! Excellently put, this whole thing.

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>>51205321
>Is that wrong? Hell no

I think you're on point, but you won't get very far with the Raggi haters. Pic related.

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>>51200546

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>>51204929
>im an outsider, can someone try to explain rulings vs rules to me, without ever using the words "rulings" or "rules"? i've had a friend try to tell me about it but it just seems like semantics
I'll try a slightly different tack here for a sec.

Once upon a time there was an awesome game. It had tiny books, with a good framework for playing, but it was missing a LOT. So people made decisions about what would happen next based on the circumstances, acting like referees in a really loose wargame. It was Good, but there was a lot of confusion about what the Hell was going on. Still, since it was marketed mostly to older dudes who played a lot of wargames (and their metalhead little brothers), it was working.

Then, after a while, people got tired of constantly having to ask what decisions the referee had made when they changed groups or went to a convention or whatever, and some people wanted more realistic combat. So a dude named Perrin made a new game that tried to think of everything. It didn't, but hey, it was kinda cool.

Not to be outdone, one of the guys who came up with the framework published a huge-ass pile of loosely-connected ideas that patched a lot of those holes (but still not all of them) and said "here's what I do, go wild". And some of his friends also put >their< ideas into other books, and the game split into a couple different branches. And you could tell roughly what was up in a convention game or home campaign by referencing those books, and it was Pretty Good.

Next, the company that was making the game decided that it was better to have a clear and consistent book that they could give to teenagers than have to have the whole thing be passed down and puzzled out between beardy gits. While they were at it they made a whole bunch more stuff up to cover even more gaps and then proudly declared that no-one needed to make anything up any more, and even if they did the company would publish stuff for that too..
(cont)

>>51205120
Since I'm already deep into TL;DR country I might as well expand on this: most of the time, preferring the "rulings not rules" mindset springs from or at least incorporates a desire for the players to engage with the adventure, or fiction, or whatever you want to call it, rather than with the rules. Ideally, players should be responding to the situation in a natural way, not figuring out what "moves" they can make. The thing >>51205020 mentions is a typical case of someone trying to use a "move" in a board-gamily clever way and being overridden by common sense about what would occur in the fiction.

The same general principle applies to those parts of the game that aren't involved in active play, so for instance it's totally okay to want to play a dragon because dragons are cool, but wanting to play the Dragon class because of its cool powers is largely frowned upon. A common side effect is that in groups playing this way it's often more okay to play various monsters or other crazy shit, because nobody needs to worry that "that prestige class is broken".

Is there a set of rules out there for drawing up your own randomly generated hexmap?

>>51203258
About a week ago. Campaign session of Word of the Lost.

Robot death-rayed the longest running characters head off (3rd level Specialist. Literally came downstairs and joined in for like 10 minutes, poor guy.) Elf and Witch retardedly jumped down the center dungeon hole while running away to fall to their deaths. Dwarf and Thief run off into the jungle to lick their wounds.

It was alright. Tho the hole jumping was one of the dumber things I've witnessed.

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>>51205499
(cont)
And then, the company making the game starts to go after the people making up their own shit to play with, even though they used to encourage it. And everyone gets a little pissed.

Long story short, the company decides that the guy running the game should be reading out of the books literally all the time and they make new stuff to cover ALL THE HOLES YOU GUYS and anyone who wants to run something fast and loose is a Bad Person. Also they destroy the gaming industry, but that's a tale for another day.

So those of us who like fast and loose and playing a game instead of being a library computer go "fuck you, I'm making my own game with blackjack and hookers". And So It Was.

Basically 3e had a philosophy of "the DM is the bad guy, here's rules to keep him in check" - an adversarial, contractual relationship - and the earlier editions had varying flavors of "The DM is also a player, let's keep this shit rolling". More of a cooperative relationship, with a lot more trust. Sure, if that trust gets abused it sucks, but when it works it works WAY better.

>>51205609
>Sure, if that trust gets abused it sucks, but when it works it works WAY better.
As Zak likes to say (paraphrased), "if you're playing with an asshole, this doesn't work, but if you're playing with an asshole, nothing works. Why are you playing with an asshole?"

>>51202061
ugh can't stand "Gritty & Dark Fantasy" settings, at least in the OSR, because they pretty much are all the same, and are boring as hell(especially since they're often so low fantasy that you might as well just run a historical game using BRP or something)

>>51203258
>So /osrg/, how long was it since you ran or played a session? How did it go?
if we're only counting OSR stuff, then it's been years, as I moved away from my main group back in 2013 and have yet to find a replacement group(or indeed make any friends or have anything of a social life in my new location)

>>51205526
DMG 1e

>>51205609
>anyone who wants to run something fast and loose is a Bad Person

Gygax™ started that meme with his "If you aren't playing AD&D® by the book then you aren't playing AD&D®" propaganda.

>>51205731
>Gygax™ started that meme with his "If you aren't playing AD&D® by the book then you aren't playing AD&D®" propaganda.

That was the company line when they were doing the tournament thing.

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What's yer campaign look like, osr? What kinda game you running?

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>>51205809
>>51205731
On the one hand, yeah, but on the other the non-"A" D&D line was still going "take what you want from AD&D, but we're doing our own shit over here and liking it". So it kinda presented a haven for the R-!R crowd.

>>51205867
I've got a couple right now. Both are grotty mid-fantasy alt-historical games. The one I ran Scenic Dunnsmouth in
(see>>51205321 )
Is a Picaresuqe where I haul out modules and the old character sheets and we go for it with little in-between time. It's with a group I get together with reliably but on short notice, and we usually only have a few hours to play, so I focus on maximal gaming time over banter and "getting there". I also don't generally have much prep time, so I go for pre-published stuff. I keep that one in an a5 folder and it's ready to go pretty much whenever.

The other game is a pack of drunken pirates roaming the world fucking things up, and more of a consistent campaign. It's all friends of mine from college, so we're in the late-20s to late-30s and it's difficult to schedule, but fun as Hell.
They are Bad People. Pic related.
This one is the huge 3-ring binder I posted a couple threads ago, where I actually track long-term consequences and factions and shit.

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>>51205469
>>51205063
>>51205099
Thanks.
let me gift you a space slave for your services

Hi everyone.

Pretty new to the whole OSR thing and RPG's in general. My system I prefer right now is The Black Hack because it is so easy for me to comprehend, but I love to look over other systems.

Recently been looking at White Box : Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game by Seattle Hill Game. This is the next easiest game I have found for me to comprehend all the rules. The way it is written is so clear!

I have found one of the rules inside very interesting though, which is the Treasure rules! The whole XP to treasure stuff is awesome, and then trading out the treasure for items.

So my two questions are as follows:
1) Do people actually like this rule and has it been useful in practice? The whole trade in thing and the fact that xp converts to the treasure given as well.

2) How exactly would I be able to explain that a goblin has a bunch of gold, when they have no use for it. Or how an owlbear has a bunch of gems?

For reference, this is chapter 9 of the book.

>>51200066
You could adopt a version of the LotFP skill system, or have players choose a background.

I think this is one place where OSR falls down a bit--it's difficult to have much meaningful mechanical detail to your technology without bringing in a skill system of some kind.

OSR dungeon crawling often gets by without it because we can all kind of imagine how things work. We sort of understand the basic characteristics of rope, doors, flaming oil, or "drink this and something happens".

You could just gloss over the technology. In the original Star Wars for example, you don't really have people distinguished much by technical skills. Han Solo is just generally a great flyboy who can get the ship to go just by banging on the console. If you have a good attack bonus, you'll be good at operating the turbolaser--if you're good at spotting hidden things, you'll be just as good at it when you're looking at the radar screen.

And when players have a narrow technical role... what do you do when the pilot dies?

If it were me, I'd be tempted to run the sort of thing where everyone is a member of the Rocket Patrol or whatever. They've all been trained to fly the ship and operate the critical systems, on top of being a scientist or a marine or a psychic.

>>51206576
>Do people actually like this rule and has it been useful in practice?

Yes. I personally don't use it as written since I don't like all the book-keeping

>How exactly would I be able to explain that a goblin has a bunch of gold, when they have no use for it.

I tend to forego coins and replace it with things of similar value. The goblins have 10000 coppers? Nah, they've got copper circlets and bracelets and necklaces and shiet.

Generally, even though something isn't valuable it still might be really pretty.

>>51206730
Thanks! So if you don't use it as written then how do you prefer to use it?

And also how do you like the system as a whole? This is the first system I have read that might make we want to switch from The Black Hack

>>51206576
>Do people actually like this rule and has it been useful in practice? The whole trade in thing and the fact that xp converts to the treasure given as well.
Yes gold to xp is one of the most popular rules in OSR.
>How exactly would I be able to explain that a goblin has a bunch of gold, when they have no use for it. Or how an owlbear has a bunch of gems?
It depends on the setting and circumstances. Like the owlbear could have killed a wealthy merchant and dragged his corpse to his den, or the goblins may collect gold to sacrifice to their dark god. Alternatively they could just be greedy-ass goblins.

>>51206576
1) getting XP for treasure is a classic and much loved rule. It's a neat incentive to be sneaky graverobbers, and since you get treasure by going on dangerous adventures, it's a useful proxy for how much danger and risk the PCs get up to. You don't get shit for "grinding mobs".

Trading treasure for magic items is one of the reasons I dropped third edition many years ago, but I don't know how it's handled in the system you're talking about. I do not like reducing magic items to a predictable commodity that can be bought and sold.

2) They got lucky enough to steal it, or in the case of a nonintelligent foe, the treasure is scattered about among the bones of previous victims. Generally those big hauls are in a lair, but that can vary alot depending on whether you're using the old school treasure types and stuff.

>>51206791
I like clear and simple games, but I also like more meat than what The Black Hack goes for. White Box is basically reworded Swords & Wizardry (which is OD&D retroclone) with house rules of its own. It's fine. I would use before The Black Hack unless I was going for a pick up game. Actually, scratch that, there are better pick up OSR games than The Black Hack.

Absolutely use treasure-as-xp rule, otherwise you won't run an OSR game. You can simplify it (like every 100 gp = 1 xp and you need 10, 20 or so xp to advance if you want to get rid of zeroes), you can bolt on another things that might grant xp, but absolutely use it as written for starters.

>>51206576

>no use for gold

I had a tribe of gnolls in one game that punched holes in the coins they took from humans and demi-humans and braided them into their hair.

Another thing you can do is have stuff like bottles of wine that the goblins have looted from a caravan or something. Valuable potentially, but also something goblins would be likely to use since they probably can't make wine on their own.

Another option is jewelry they've stolen, or silks, or any number of valuable commodities. Can you imagine how silly a discussion about how to transport back some high quality hardwood furniture the goblins filched could be?

>We're gonna need a cart
>>Then we'll have to pay someone for that
>Well, give them a rocking chair
>>No, I'm keeping that
>Then how about some silk?
>>A farmer is going to take silk for his cart
>Maybe for his wife?
>>A peasant's wife in silk, how droll

>>51206791
Eh, I've no strong feelings regarding White Box and I actually don't know all that much about it.

I use XP as more of a rough set of guidelines. I tend toward to weigh good roleplaying, treasure, story goals, and good tactics equally and level the players up after about after a few sessions, although it varies with the system.

Also, you may like The Zebra Hack, it combines some elements of White Box and Black Hack, although it does have some bad omissions/errors like missing spells and suddn references to Evil in a game of Law v Chaos.

>>51206576
>How exactly would I be able to explain
why would you need to explain it?

Trying to make dungeons "make sense" is a terrible idea and you should give up on it. If you try, you will end up designing dungeons that are much less fun to explore.

>>51206928
Ahhh so not a big fan of The Black Hack.

>>51206884
>>51206928
I think I might have miss worded my original post. I am not talking about how the amount of gold you get is also some XP.

I just meant that in this version of the game they give an example of 4 skeletons = 100 xp. So that also means they are carrying 100 GP worth of treasure. There are tables so that instead of giving the party 100 gp straight up, you can swap 100 GP for one roll on a "Minor-Item Table" that the party would get instead.

Maybe I haven't looked critically enough at other treasure systems and this is actually really common and I just don't know it.

>>51207028
>I just meant that in this version of the game they give an example of 4 skeletons = 100 xp. So that also means they are carrying 100 GP worth of treasure.

How weird. That's not how it works in most other OSR games. It's usually monsters give some minor XP, and the other treasure in the dungeon is put by the GM or rolled because there's a lair in the dungeon.

Plenty of monsters just don't give gold at all.

>>51207070
I realize I really might have messed this whole thing up. I appreciate everyone answering my question though.

I took the treasure rules and turned them into a quick image for people to see what I am talking about.

>>51207028
>4 skeletons = 100 xp. So that also means they are carrying 100 GP worth of treasure.

You are either confused or White Box is hella weird. Usually, killing (or defeating) monsters and taking treasure both give XP. Killing (or defeating) monsters just gives a lot less XP by RAW. Although you could go full Diablo and have monsters literally explode into a shower of treasure.

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>>51207139

>>51207243
Huh, weird. It's an interesting idea to express monster XP in treasure directly, but this game actually awards XP for killing monsters and for getting their treasure, while tying the amount of treasure to monster's XP as indicated by "the monetary value of a treasure ought to be about 2-3 times the monster's value in experience points" and also by "Gaining Experience" in chapter 5 paragraph. Weird. Yeah, that's exactly the kind of stuff that separates it from Swords & Wizardry and other retroclones.

>>51207028
Not a fan of The Black Hack, yes. I wouldn't advise against using it but I'd still encourage you to start with almost anything else.

>>51207139
>go full Diablo and have monsters literally explode into a shower of treasure.
I kinda want to do this now
It sounds great fun for a less serious game

>>51207139
>monsters literally explode into a shower of treasure
Battle Clerics of Midas! Yoooo!

>>51207489
This

>>51206576
>a goblin has a bunch of gold, when they have no use for it.

Think of it this way: These monsters out in the wilds don't have trade and aren't going to buy the gold, but they all know that it's shiny and pretty, and that other races will kill you to get it.
This can make it a status symbol, worth fighting for. A warlord can impress with how much of this useless stuff he has piled up around his throne. "Look at my hoard, it's twice the size of the neighboring tribe's. Let the humans come and try to take it, and I will hang their skulls above it by the dozens."
There's also impressing mates with shiny ornaments to your nest/lair, for beasts that have instincts similar to crows.

>someone combined The Black Hack and Apocalypse World to create The "Indie" Hack

This is some next-level bandwagoning cancer

Are there any good OSR actual plays?

>>51206576
>How exactly would I be able to explain that a goblin has a bunch of gold, when they have no use for it.
Why wouldn't they have any use for it? In my game the goblins would use it to buy booze, cigars and whores.

Even if you had more typical goblins you could imagine them having some bizarre plan, like when they have enough gold they're going to buy a house in town and all three of them will stand on top of one another at all times with the top one wearing a fake beard, which they're convinced nobody will see through, and they'll live the life of a burgher.

>>51200066
>I'd like some ideas for this, to avoid implementing a useless 'pilot' class.
Separate "ground roles" and "ship roles" (good ground fighter aren't necessarily good at manning turrets, etc.), but have each player take two roles (one ground and one ship).

>>51207622
On a recommendation from here I listened to GGNoRe play through Deep Carbon Observatory using Into The Odd. Sadly it seems like they've gone back to 5e though.
https://ggnorecast.com/

>>51207622
I mean, I recorded my last session and I thought it was good. Minimum memes and honest attempts at roleplaying. Last session was mainly carousing and the camera ran out before the party got into the dungeon. We play tomorrow and the session should be a more straightforward dungeon crawl. I post a link in the next /osrg/ after uploading it to youtube.

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>>51205499
>acting like referees in a really loose wargame.
Not that Anon, but expanding on this slightly:

In the original wargames (Kriegsspiel, Little Wars, etc.), you needed a 3rd party referee.

>>51206576
>when they have no use for it.
Why do they have no use for it?

Might be they employ a few mercenaries/bandits.
Or their horde imports food from unscrupulous merchants.

>>51206576
>1) Do people actually like this rule and has it been useful in practice? The whole trade in thing and the fact that xp converts to the treasure given as well.
I certainly do!
>2) How exactly would I be able to explain that a goblin has a bunch of gold, when they have no use for it. Or how an owlbear has a bunch of gems?
Goblins like shiny objects, kinda like small children. Merchants and others usually have shiny things so you snick-snack them and take them! As for the owlbear, the gems should be uncut at best but could be used as part of an ornate nesting ritual to attract mates.

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How's Endless Tunnels of Enlandin for a first dungeon to run for a group of relative noobs?

>>51207028
I see what you mean now.

I can see what the writer was trying to do (having a simple rule of thumb for how much treasure the monster is carrying, instead of consulting a treasure table).

It doesn't seem outright bad.

Personally I prefer a style of gameplay where looting bodies is not really that profitable. You're not ganking skeletons for the loot they drop, you're doing it because they're guarding that ancient tomb with all the shiny stuff inside.

I guess my gut instinct is to keep the monsters and the treasure/XP sort of separate elements, otherwise hunting weak monsters for a bit of profit becomes an end to itself.

>>51205099
>Slumbering Ursine Dunes
Is this in the trove?

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>muh 1E and 2E are completely different games

>>51208760
I like it when some of the really weird monsters' parts can be treasure itself, like displacer beast's hide. But those are exceptions.

>>51209323
Yes, Labyrinth Lord adventures, Hydra Collective.

>>51209323
Misty Ilses of the Eld by the same guy is another great science-fantasy module.

>>51205609
>Long story short, the company decides that the guy running the game should be reading out of the books literally all the time
Worth noting that it's an entirely different company that acquisitioned the original. It wasn't a change of heart, it was a change of hands.

>I would argue that AD&D is more than a ruleset. It is a mindset. No amount of retro creation can turn back the clock that brewed the eldritch alchemy of the golden age of gaming.

>Rules lawyers? The game was made for rules lawyers! We came out of the womb arguing obscure, esoteric, and technical particularities noone cared about.

>The name of today's games seems to be making sure "everyone has a chance to shine", "everyone should have fun", "each class needs to be important", "death should be avoided to allow the story to carry on", "deaths when they do happen should be memorable" and other death defying mechanics like negative H.P., healing surges, hit die (which means something totally different than it was supposed to), the death save, no three death saves, no ... well, you get the idea.

>Such was not the gaming culture back in the day. The old culture was ruled by TSR; in which Dungeons and Dragons was born and in which it developed and grew.

I could have sworn Gygax introduced a negative HP system in UA and said that AD&D was made to balance the original D&D. Grogs gonna grog.

http://classicrpgrealms.blogspot.co.nz/2017/01/searching-for-magic.html

>>51209345
>converting the bohun tree to ANY system

You are a horrible person.

>>51209689
I thought negative HP was default AD&D, not even UA.

>>51209689
>The name of today's games seems to be making sure "everyone has a chance to shine", "everyone should have fun", "each class needs to be important", "death should be avoided to allow the story to carry on", "deaths when they do happen should be memorable" and other death defying mechanics like negative H.P., healing surges, hit die (which means something totally different than it was supposed to), the death save, no three death saves, no ... well, you get the idea.
I've been wondering, is roleplaying itself also approached differently between old/new school? I've only run old school dungeon crawls, but sometimes posting on /tg/ I get the feeling I have a subtly different idea of what is desirable in roleplaying to the average poster here. How I've come to see it is that good roleplaying is a player well occupying the perspective of his character, immersing himself in his physical situation, his character background and personality and the world /lore - I think with the most importance on the first. As in, he recognizes the context of his PC and behaves plausibly, as well as in accord with his PC's knowledge and characteristics, if any (my player backgrounds generally being meaningless one-liners, sometimes with traits like 'quick tempered' noted or some motivations/dogmas for spice, but with the meat of the personality developed through play and in general reference to stats (low int = idiot)). But I get the sense that most of the TTRPG community value is a sort of theatrical role-playing, play-acting a detailed concept character, bonus points awarded for accents etc. which is something my table would consider entirely superfluous, elements that would most often only really come up as the basis for banter. Maybe I just haven't witnessed "good RP," I don't really know.

>>51209892
> is roleplaying itself also approached differently between old/new school?

I have an issue of Dragon from 1982 with someone taking your position in response to one of Gygax's editorials which said something to the effect of "just roleplay your character as yourself instead of being a wannabe actor." The debate's been raging for decades.

>>51209892
>is roleplaying itself also approached differently between old/new school?
Yes, and it's pretty much what you described. There are differences within the old school too, though, they're just not fought over. For example, I prefer players to take a really high-level attitude to their PCs, as though they're playing pieces in a board game or miniature wargame. That is, it's fine to have favorite pawns, but they're all mortal and it's expected that even the strongest of them may die in the battle/during the game, and you don't get more than a bit upset about it.

Most OSR people I've encountered still prefer player-PC identification, on the other hand.

>>51201051
>>51207678

Literally why not just tie it to class?

It makes great sense that way, limits character 'building', and even adds in some flavor.

>>51209689
Healing surges LIMIT the amount of healing that can be done

Why the fuck do people keep thinking it makes characters more powerful and harder to kill?

If you run out of healing surges youre fucked no potion or wand will save you

>>51210439
Because they have no obvious ties to classes.
What's bad about separating them? It's one extra decision with almost no options.

Either keep them separate or say, "everyone can do every ship thing."
Or maybe, "everyone can do most ships things, but a few ship things are spells."

The real question is: why are they mounting themselves on the "two casters" sacred cow.

>>51209998
>>51210086
I see. Is there a word to describe the different camps?

>>51211026
>why are they mounting themselves on the "two casters"
And why would they need ro reduce the number of casters?

>>51211160
'Right' and 'Wrong'.

Hey /osrg/, been reading Greyharp. Am I just dumb or is there no rating for how much carts and wagons can carry? Is it in a supplement or something?

If not, what do you guys think makes sense? I seriously have no experience with loading carts, so I have no idea what's even a reasonable ballpark.

>>51211283
I know AD&D (at least 2e, probably 1e too) has stuff on how much a wagon can carry.

>>51211283
Depends on the wagon

>>51211231
For what purpose?

No, lets phrase that a bit differently. Chesterton's Fence, and all that.
Why do you think OD&D used two separate caster classes?

>>51211398
balance and makes the game more interesting.
On the other hand, for what purpose would you say that having two is bad?

This /osrg/ trend of hating casters is getting tiresome.

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>>51211026

>No obvious ties to classes
I disagree. Soldiers are good at using the big laser turrets, technicians are good at calibrating the shield generators or engines. psychics would be good at sensing things supernaturally, and would therefore be good at using the combat sensors, their natural abilities augmenting them.

>The real question is: why are they mounting themselves on the "two casters" sacred cow.

I personally wouldn't, it was just an example.

I would use a system for Sci-Fi OSR with classes like;
>Soldier
>Smuggler
>Technician
>One Supernatural class

I am having trouble deciding what that supernatural class should be, I shall admit.

>>51211471
>I am having trouble deciding what that supernatural class should be, I shall admit.
You already used it in your post: Psychic.

>>51210517
Because people don't understand how game mechanics work. In 4e, around 95+% of all healing has to come from one's healing surges (a very limited number of things outright healed you) and it became just as much a resource to track as torches and rations. My DM even introduced a fair number of monsters that sucked those surges right off of you which meant our party would need to do longer rests than normal which carried with it increased risks of wandering monsters.

>>51211335
Thanks! I've just also realized that apparently Gygax thought that a normal man's maximum carry weight was 300 lbs. and that a typical coin weighs 1/10 of a pound rather than 1/10 to 1/6 of an ounce...
Seems pretty off to me. I might just go with a more abstract encumbrance system like the LotFP one, or use "coin weights" themselves as a kind of abstraction. I hope I can avoid getting too autistically fixated on making this realistic for my gonzo game.

>>51211432
Arneson was running a "good party v. evil party" campaign, and the evil party had a ludicrously over powered vampire.
The players got fed up and said "We'll quit", but one of them said, "I want to play Van Helsing." Arneson said, "Sure."
Afterword the campaign they said, "Hey, Turn Undead is a pretty nifty tool" and just left the Van Helsing class in.

>>51211398
>Why do you think OD&D used two separate caster classes?

Because Sir Fang wouldn't stop shitting up the campaign.

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>>51211490

But Psychic is kind of lame.

There are so many more (in fact, even more interesting) mystical/supernatural style classes for use in Sci-Fi

Truthfully I never liked the idea of psychics or empaths that much because a lot of their abilites could be replaced by technology. you could argue anyone's abilites can be replaced by technology in sci-fi but that's beside the point.

I kind of like the idea of straight up physical adept style Jedi (ie; life based magic, psychic sensing and such, healing, etc), as well as a more unqiue and snowflakey style of 'Potent' user who can basically create or absorb energies. More like a Wizard, being able to do X number of blasting attacks per day, or absorbing X number of laser rounds into his personal energy shield, etc.

Not really sure what I'm going for here.

>>51211599
none of that gives a reason as to why keeping two casters is bad and should be avoided.

Is there any real reason that LotFP has such a high unarmored AC?

>>51211471
>I am having trouble deciding what that supernatural class should be

why not just keep it as a wizard?
Give it a sci-fi sounding name like "arcane operative" or whatever and it's good enough.

>>51211545
Coin weights are some sort of bizarre combination of weight and volume.

>>51211642
Because it's an edgy low fantasy setting and magic can only destroy not heal.

>>51211615
Psychic is basically just a catch all term for "sci-fi wizard" at this point. I could see both of your examples being called psychics.

>>51211660
Probably to make the Fighter's attack bonus even more useful.

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>>51211642
The only reason you've given for using two casters is, "I'm used to two casters, so that's the best way to do it."

>>51211705
Or because you mixed the spell lists.

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>>51211283
Lamentations has a pretty simple encumbrance system for loading animals, page 30. Essentially, your basic 2-axle wagon being pulled by one horse lets you carry 3,000 bagged coins' worth of treasure, ~30 "standard" items, or ~6 "Oversized" items without penalty.
If a Teamster (a hireling with a monthly wage of ~75-100sp) directs the packing of your wagons, you get an extra 500c/5 items/1 oversized item per animal.

Each extra animal on the team/axle on the wagon adds 1000c/10 items. People riding in the wagon are worth 5 items/500 coins.

It's a pretty simple abstraction, but it works on a practical level even though there are some weird edge cases (like an armoire in one module apparently being as easy to transport in a wagon as the equivalent of 12 rolls of quarters in a sack), but overall it's simple to use.

>>51211795
and the only reason you've give to remove them is:
Oh wait, you didn't give a single reason.

>>51211795
Even if he just wanted two caster classes because he's used to it being that way, why is that such a terrible thing?
All this sacred cow spamming is kind of strange to me.

>>51211660
The base Attack Bonus for most 1st level PCs is +1, so a roll of 11+ scores a hit, i.e. normal starting PCs have a 50/50 chance of landing a blow.

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>>51211642
i can't answer your question, but Georges Dumézil, in his structural analysis of proto-indo-european culture, identified three castes that made up their society: the sovereigns, the military, and the commoners.

in myth, the military class was represented in the form of the warrior-hero, but the sovereign class was divided into two distinct roles: the magician-king, who drew their power from a connection to cosmic order, and the jurist-priest, who operated according to a more worldly law of right and ritual.

obviously there's no actual reason why this distinction would reappear in 70s Wisconsin wargaming, but it's cool to note that the warrior-hero corresponds to the fighter, the magician-king to the magic-user, and jurist-priest to the cleric

>>51211850
>All this sacred cow spamming is kind of strange to me.
this minimalistic trend is really annoying. Gotta remove as much shit as we can just for the sake of removing things!

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>>51211668

"Wizard" doesn't really sound good in science fiction stuff. Secondly, I don't really gel with the idea of actual 100% science fiction wizards because many of the special things only Wizards can do in DnD, like slowfall and create light from nothing are super easy things that science fiction technology could do, people can just carry that stuff.

If you make it into a purely power-house role, as I detailed in the 'potent', as in being able to blast people with energy or control energy in some way you can be a really good jack of all trades character along with being powerful in combat AND unique in some respect. Maybe that's your special ability, you can recharge everyone's batteries easily.

>>51211710

I don't want to call them Psychics. Psychics also traditionally have a certain set of psychic abilities which includes things like seeing the future, mind reading, and so forth. Star Wards Jedi have a lot of similar powers but calling them Psychics wouldn't really feel right.

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>>51211795
>The only reason you've given for using two casters is, "I'm used to two casters, so that's the best way to do it."
Here's a different reason:
The two "main" caster classes are using restricted and differentiated spell lists, along with different magical spell advancement rates and casting methods, to represent two entirely different magical traditions and goals. These differences are difficult or impossible to simply subsume into one class.

Further, the assumed setting of the original D&D works strongly implies (and various satellite works, as well as much of the inspirational works outright state) that ferrous metals are hostile to Arcane magic. But the second caster class, as it is channeling from a different source, is immune to the restrictions on armor and most weaponry that affect the first. It's another clear separation between the design goals and roles of the two.

While later media would introduce the "white mage" concept, fantasy fiction of the day (in keeping with the traditions of Western and Oriental literature) treated Wizards as highly suspect even when they were doing "good" things. On the other hand, miracles abound in the hands of wandering holy men and dedicated knights, neither of which really conforms to the idea of a "wizard" with a simple modified spell list (as opposed to the conversions later done for Illusionists and Druids).

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>>51211918
Would the older "Esper" or "Lensman" please you? Alternately, "Technomancer" is always fun to say.

If you want to keep it purely technological, there was an old MMORPG that had their "mage" class be a power station and cyberjacked control node for a cloud of nanomachines which produced various spell-like effects, but consumed either power resources or eventually the caster himself for materials and energy. I always liked that idea, but never really sat down and worked out any deets.

>>51211918
>"Wizard" doesn't really sound good in science fiction stuff.
Then how about
SPACE WIZARD

>>51211471
>>51211615
>>51211918
>>51212188
personally I'd do classes similar to how the Mass Effect series, which has a setup which works pretty well in my opinion, as it has three "pure" classes that are each focused on a single thing(in ME's case Combat, Biotics, and Tech usage), then 3 "hybrid" classes that can do 2 different things well, if not as good as the pure ones(Tech/Combat, Tech/Biotics, and Biotics/Combat), and then there's a bunch of more specialized versions of those 6 to cover differences in how various races(and certain human groups) fight, use biotics, and their preferred technologies(not to mention they differ physically)

obviously there'd need to be tweaking of this system for use in a Tabletop RPG context, but I think the base idea is very solid

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>>51211818
Didn't this tangent start (>>51210439) with
>let's limit character building options

>>51212426
dude
in that context character building options means players choice of things beyond choosing classes.

What does everyone find putting on their GM/DM screen if you use one. I understand some don't.

Are you just slapping up rules? Or do you put stuff that will help you run the game like a list of names and random encounters?

Links to your person screen would be greatly appreciated.

>>51212452
>things beyond choosing classes
Funny enough both, the posts that were replied to (>>51201051, >>51207678) referred solely to character classes.

>>51211883
Yes, and the proto-indo-europeans were terrible men who destroyed the ancient matriarchal democracies of europe.

Anthropology is a crock of shit.

>>51211900
Gotta include as much shit as we can just for the sake of including things!

>>51212142
Lots of back-projection here. Clerics were made to counter Sir Fang, not because of some keen design insight or appeal to materials.

>>51212503
one is specifically saying "lets tie ship roles to classes" and the other saying "lets allow them to choose both classes and ship roles"

and the post you quoted said "tie it to classes to reduce character building options"

In no point were people talking about making the ship roles indepedant classes or reducing the number of classes that had already been discussed.

OMG ... Anon dude
>>51207979

Posted a bunch of Yggsburg and Castle Zagyg stuff then they closed the thread:

https://mega.nz/#F!xI10FIjb!E6oyH0iw73LnlkZRGigHsQ


Anyone know if that thread was restarted at some other link? (I'm new to this place) because I REALLY have to thank this guy for doing that :) I have waited so long for even something on it.

Not sure if that covers all the available books - but will check web later tonight. I'm just ecstatic atm.

>>51212525
>Gotta include as much shit as we can just for the sake of including things!

Except that 4 classes is not "including as much shit as we can". It's just 4 classes.
while "remove one of the two casters just because" is indeed removing things for no reason.

So far no one actually said why 2 casters is bad and should not be allowed.

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>>51212142
>strongly implies [...] ferrous metals are hostile to Arcane magic
Gameist abstraction. They just didn't want wizards dressing up in plate.
Is drawing blood hostile to Divine magic?

>While later media would introduce the "white mage" concept,
You do understand how hard Final Fantasy was riffing AD&D, right?

>>51212595
>You do understand how hard Final Fantasy was riffing AD&D, right?
not hard enough since the white mage is nothing like the cleric

>cleric
>spends most fights hitting things
>heavily armored
>can fight moderately well

>white mage
>spends most fights healing
>no armor
>can't fight at all
>is a disgusting redhead

>>51212589
Because Raggi wants to get rid of the cleric, and people seem to think that Raggi is good at game design (he's not).

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>>51212557
>one is specifically saying "lets tie ship roles to classes"
This first says "let them pick a parallel separate class for ship activities. And hey, maybe limit their choice some how.
>and the other saying "lets allow them to choose both classes and ship roles"
The other (which was incidentally, me) doesn't use the word class at all. It describes both as roles, by which I meant archetypes. Which is presumably what you mean by class.

>In no point were people talking about making the ship roles indepedant classes
Me and one other person had brought that up.
>or reducing the number of classes
That's part of reducing character building options, and reducing character building options *was* the discussion this branched off from.

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>>51212645
>wants to get rid of the cleric

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

>>51212643
>FF1 White Mage
>Gets ridiculous party bonuses
>Wears light armor
>Wields hammers and heavy weapons, not a great combat score but built right can out-damage a thief at some points in the game

Yeah naw, cunt. There's a reason 4 white mages is a viable party to beat the game with, and it's not because they're flush with holy spells in the game.

>>51212695
>And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
if one day someone ever gives a reason as to why they need to remove classes maybe you will be right.

>>51212705
>>Wears light armor
meanwhile, clerics wear heavy armor, and can't even cast spells from the start

so again, white mage, completely different archetype than a cleric.

>>51212643
While we're going down that rabbit hole, Black Belts were Mystics and Red Mages were Bards.
If you reclassed with a rat's tail, Knights were Paladins and Ninja were Assassins.

>>51212695
I personally don't like the cleric because it can be difficult to adapt to settings without a catholic style religion, but removing it just for the sake of having a shorter rulebook is dumb.

>>51212679
>That's part of reducing character building options, and reducing character building options *was* the discussion this branched off from.

And you were the only person saying that people should reduce character building options
and you never said why that was a good thing in the concept of removing one of the four classes

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>>51212787
>implying I was >>51210439

>>51212589
I say get rid of everything but the fighting-men. Scrap the races too (even monstrous humanoids). While we're at it, cut Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom since these should be measures of the player, not the character. And while we're cutting stats, lets cut Strength, Dexterity and Constitution and make one stat - Power which is also your Health so you no longer role hit dice, you role your Power.

And another thing we can cut are all of these stupid armors and weapons. They do nothing but add tedious BS to the game. Power is also now your Defense, and weapons should just be Sword since let's face it, everyone only ever uses swords. If you feel like doing something at range, well just substitute Sword for Bow for the same effect.

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>>51212759
>completely

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>>51212726

I'm not whoever you were talking to before, but I enjoy the thought of reducing in-game classes to just three of the archetypal pyramid of Fighter, Thief and Mage. There are a couple of other benefits as to why I think removing the cleric is a good thing as well.
>Clerics are overloaded
Clerics are good at fighting, have decent magic, and have unique turn undead ability. Why? Why do they have so many abilities? This doesn't necessarily mean they are overpowered, it just seems a bit at odds with the set roles of all the other classes; Fighters and good at Fighting, Thieves are good at accessing places, and Mages are good at magic. Clerics do a little Fighting and Magic each, making them stick out a bit from the trifecta.
>Clerics are NOT setting neutral
Due to the vaguely christian powers, miracles and restrictions of the cleric in most games, the cleric heavily implies a setting where a church like that is in place. If I ran an OSR game taking place with magical cavemen, or in a really gonzo setting I don't want any of my classes to have any setting fluff packaged along with it.
>Cleric magic is too similar to MU magic
This is my biggest complaint about the cleric, and I actually use clerics in my game but without the traditional MU spellcasting, which I think is the best.

Basically having the cleric be the exact same (spell levels, spell slots, preparing spells, holy symbol = spellbook, etc) in how they do magic as the MU is really fucking lame. If they be miraculous faith healers or if they pray to the divine for aid then it should be expressed in the mechanics, not just a re skinned magic user.

>>51212863
I disagree with the idea that every class needs to use a completely different mechanic. The cleric as a caster/fighter hybrid works really well.

About setting neutral or not, I understand that, but do note that this discussion started because someone sugggested 2 kinds of casters in non-fantasy setting. As if the mere idea of having 2 caster classes was bad.

>>51212939
If we go back to that post (>>51200066), they were unsure about having two casters.
They were also patterning it off Magic-Users and Clerics, presumably out of familiarity.

>>51213004
His doubt is more at which "ship class" would pair with each regular class anyway

>the four classes
I hate this meme. Thieves are as essential to D&D as Monks and Illusionists are, i.e. not at all.

>>51213121
I see no reason to remove monks and illusionists either

until you have like, 20 classes or something, and players have to face actual choice paralysis whenever making a new character, allowing more classes isn't a bad thing.

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>>51212705
>4 white mages is a viable party to beat the game with

>>51212863
The pyramid is Fighter-Cleric-Mage. Thief has no reason for existence and introduces nothing to the class balance.

Does anyone have that random dungeon generator pdf? I'm in dire need of it (session in 7 hours)

Why can't you have more then 3 classes?
On the other hand why stop a 3? Why not 2 classes? Or none?
Is it because 3 classes equate to some 3 pillars of gameplay? If that's true why is there debate whether thief or cleric should be in the big 3?

Has anyone used stonhell dungeon? How was it? Thinking about using it as my framework for the underworld megadungeon. Going to use isle of dread as the overworld.

>>51213402
>debate whether thief or cleric
Thief is redundant with dictating actions.
Cleric is redundant with Magic-User.

2 classes is good, in my book.

>>51212863
>Clerics are NOT setting neutral
This is patent bullshit, religion can be reskinned far more easily compared to vancian magic - your magical cavemans have shamans. Setting neutrality is a false god in any case. You can reskin the dungeons into abandoned space ships and the dragons into aliens, but the only way you'll ever get the mechanics to stop revealing an assumption of pulp fantasy is to replace them.

>>51213179
3 fundamental classes, all other classes are designed only in respect to them (e.g. Dwarves are a Fighting-Man variant; Monk is Fighting-Man with unarmored bonus, EXP penalty etc.)

The more classes the better desu

And that's why ACKS is the best retroclone

>>51213579
this
minimalist fags go home

This shitty argument has killed the thread. Thanks mates.

>>51213622
OSR was a mistake.

>>51211599
>The players got fed up and said "We'll quit",

Huh, I've never heard that part before.

>>51213579
To a degree. I prefer kits or archetypes over outright new classes.

>>51213734
I doubt they were planning on quitting the group, but the definitely threatened to quit the campaign.

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What races do you put into your OSR campaign worlds?

>>51213738
>I prefer kits
I like kits, but I don't like 2nd ed in general, I prefer basic

>>51212586

New PDF share thread is over here: >>51213461

And hey, you're welcome. I had gathered that stuff off usenet and IRC and was gonna post it today anyway, so it was no trouble.

In addition, there's a load of OSR stuff up in that link for the Trove.

In fact, ATTENTION TroveGuy! (We'll see if he Ctrl-Fs this)

https://mega.nz/#F!xI10FIjb!E6oyH0iw73LnlkZRGigHsQ

>>51213761

Got a source for that?

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>>51212525
>Lots of back-projection here. Clerics were made to counter Sir Fang, not because of some keen design insight or appeal to materials.

Fuck your "projection".

Design space exists independent of creator intent, especially initial intent. People can make design decisions that have visible, and interesting, consequences without realizing it initially. You're saying that the origin of the class is all-important, when it had already been through multiple iterations in the home campaigns before it even hit the LBBs. And then conveniently ignoring the actual >mechanical differences< which I highlighted. Hell, the author outright says they reconsidered and expanded the design before they put it in the book. So it's far more than its inspiration.

Further, the Cleric WAS made as an appeal to materials - specifically, Van Helsing as played by Peter Cushing. When it came time to expand the class and revise it, you can bet your sweet ass Gary and Dave sat down over a couple of beers to hash out the literary precedent for the class and the direction they wanted to go with it. It's not like the Fighter is 100% Conan and Fafhrd..

>>51212525
>Repeating shit from the Golden Bough and Witchraft in W.E.
Oh boy, here we g-
Cool, never mind then
It's not a complete crock of shit, but then I'm a historical linguist so I rely on folklorists in my work. What IS a crock of shit is creating entire societies based on the fact that a little girl was buried with her doll and a ring of flowers on a bright spring day. All you know from that grave is that a family sundered shed tears that day.

>>51212595
>You do understand how hard Final Fantasy was riffing AD&D, right?
Absolutely. But the emphasis here is on "riffing", not "duplicating". The White Mage is a >mage< class with a mild weapon bonus, not a Cleric; the closest thing FF 1 had to a Cleric is actually the Red Mage.

>>51213851
2e is alright. I prefer BECMI/RC over everything else, but having a little bit of variety between characters other than simple gear and stats is fun.

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>Edgy cunts say the ONLY way to do OSR classes is fighter/cleric/mage
>Edgy cunts say the ONLY way to do OSR classes is fighter/thief/mage
>Edgy cunts say the ONLY way to do OSR classes is fighter/thief/cleric/mage

Can't ALL of you faggots understand that my group and I get to choose what classes we want, and you can't stop us? Why can't you agree to disagree instead of shitting up the thread with your arguments?

>>51214115
Agreed, just do what you want, don't whine that every system should emulate your specific ideal of classes.

>>51213622
the same fucking stupid argument we've had 10 times already, too.

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Why don't you all make some content or request some instead of complaining?

Here's 50 classes from last thread.

>>51214697
Why would a slothman become an adventurer?

>>51214115
Because everyone else is having badwrongfun and I won't rest until they recognize the true, pure OSR style which happens to be the exact combination of houserules and mechanics that I use.

If you guys want to post something other than "that" discussion, maybe you could help me with >>51213312?

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>>51214697
Eh, I'm doing that, too. But arguing is fun.

Rolled 40 (1d50)

>>51214882
Same reasons as anyone else. Desperation?

>>51213557
>Dwarf
>class

>>51214559

And it was conducted much more civilly in previous threads, as well.

>>51214953
race-as-class is the way to go

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>>51214933
According to the chart in Broodmother Sky Fortress, 40 is "Devoted friend of another PC, who does not want them to go alone" and 80 is "Sent out in search of a missing child"

>>51214115
The ONLY way to do OSR classes is cavalier/monk/bard/illusionist/barbarian.

>>51214985
Race-as-class is fine if you
>>51214115
>do classes asfighter/mage

>>51215031
>do classes as fighter/mage
do you mean elf?

Why don't we just remove humans and make every character an elf? No clerics, no thieves, spells slots stop scaling after ten, so no broken spells

>>51215119
Nah. Fighter, Mage, and various subhumans

>>51214115
>>51213622
Why is there such a pushback against any sort of heated discussion lately? No one is arguing for a one true way, they're just debating the essentialism of the cleric class. It might get repetitive but at the same time it will still always draw up illuminating points or references.

>>51215170
Because it's arguing about the same shit over and over and over.

>>51215221
>Because it's arguing about the same shit over and over and over.

That's a pretty dumb reason though. People have been arguing about everything D&D-related ever since it was released. Should not discuss psionics because people have been debating them since EW came out? Should we never discuss buffing the Fighter because many,many issues of Dragon already did that? The only way to avoid the cycle is to stop playing D&D.

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>>51215170
I'll just leave this here.

>>51215283
>furbait
I think you meant to post this in >>>/pfg/

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>>51215283
Shut up, weeaboo, this is a grognard thread!

That said, how about we comment on WHY we prefer either more or fewer classes and which systems best accomplish those goals.

Me, I like more classes to a certain extant. I feel the core game should be no more than 4 (barring races-as-classes) but free supplements or houserules to expand those should not be shunned so long as the new classes don't make the core 4 useless.

>>51215337

>Magic User has to go sit with the demihumans

>>51215337
>all dudes
>everyone except fighter and dwarf look kinda gay

What did they mean this?

>>51215337
I liked few classes as an extension of liking race-as-class.
Dwarf for dwarves, Elf for elves, Halfing for hobbits... and Fighting-Man for men.
Magic-Users on the side for those abhuman Merlins, Baba Yagas, and whatnot.

>>51203258
>So /osrg/, how long was it since you ran or played a session?
I wish I'd EVER gotten to run anything truly OSR.

My best players are, sadly, averse to classic D&D (or just D&D in general) for a variety of reasons. The closest I've ever gotten was running a highly-lethal hex-crawl-esque game using a modified Pathfinder. Which was fun, but disappointing in a lot of ways.

Can anyone suggest a good way to try and get players into OSR? I feel like running a solid one-shot adventure that conveys the unique spirit of OSR could change their minds, but I'm not too familiar with what's out there in terms of modules and such.

>>51215337
The major trouble is class paralysis when presenting players with many choices, and I feel like it encourages munchkinness by having chargen start with picking from an assortment of classes. I prefer the idea of being ready to stat anyone up with a class if they come up with a cool idea, but not presenting a list of choices beyond the basic set - I feel like 7 is already around perfect.

But I have been thinking about experimenting with maintaining a large list of unique classes but having them be stat-restricted, so they'd be presented as an option to players only if they get the rare rolls, and are otherwise out of sight. The problem is balancing them so that they're not actually stronger bonuses than normal classes - as they've already got the bonus of a rare roll and you don't want to 'drain' humans from, say, 16+ int.

>>51215513
>But I have been thinking about experimenting with maintaining a large list of unique classes but having them be stat-restricted

This. Make the Thief have no requirements that anybody can be a bumbling criminal but slap ability reqs on everything else.

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>>51215362
Okay I nearly spat up my drink on this one for some reason. Good going anon.
>>51215365
I think they were just reflecting the perception that has pervaded the RPG community since its inception that it's almost all men (something I have found rather ridiculous. Every group I've been with has had multiple women save one which fell apart rather quickly).

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Speaking of Clerics; I've been working on an alternate magic system for Clerics that I'd like to work the kinks out on.
>Remove Spellcasting and 'turn undead' abilities, replace with Faith dice
>Have Faith Dice (d6) equal to level
>Spend Faith dice to turn undead (1HD turned per pip rolled), heal (equal to amount rolled) or smite (add die rolled to damage, take only highest die rolled if multiple used in one attack)

Every die cast is 'spent' and cannot be recovered until the character returns to his temple to pray, or returns to whatever holy duty he has outside of adventuring.

The only thing that needed further working out beyond this, then, was the concept behind miracles. How should miracles be prayed for by the Cleric? The idea being you can pray for anything to happen to your God as long as it aligned within your God's portfolio. Something like a x in 6 chance with chance improving per level? Maybe based on miracle power? Perhaps just leave this ability out?

>>51215497
If you are Forever DM, you can insist on a oneshot.

If you aren't, you need to be more stubborn than them, or else become Forever DM.
Both options can and will blow up in your face. Proceed with caution.

>>>51215545 Thief
>bumbling criminal
Thieves are outright supernaturally competent, that's a far cry from bumbling.
If you want to play a less competent criminal, you should do it as a Fighting-Man.

Circumstances that drive people to dungeon delve aren't too far from what drives people to banditry.

>>51215629
Give each Cleric one or two miracles (as spells) based on their god. They cost some predetermined number of pips to use.
If they want to use a miracle, they roll faith (one at at time) until they have enough. With the miracle failing (and the faith wasted) if they run out of dice before getting enough pips.

>>51215365
gender-as-class

>>51215849
You know Tumblr would never permit this, they would simply demand that men have lower stats and the more esoteric ones gender or orientation the better overall stats one would get. "I'm a male human fighter" gets 10s whereas a "I'm a demiromantic skoliosexual third gender bard" would have 20s across the board.

>>51215893
Assuming race-and-class as the model, gender-as-class would treat male like human, as the assumed standard. You aren't a Human Male Fighter, you're a Fighter, which by default male and human. Or you can be an Elf, which is wholly Elf. Or you can be Woman.

Does tumblr play OSR?

Someone once intimated that me playing old school D&D is emblematic of far right, problematic, etc. views. I think it had to do with it being traditionalist/reactionary in nature, a small step from sharing the same attitude in politics, denying progress and all that. Or maybe just because OD&D "old white men" which I don't get, they invented the entire field of TTRPGs, and wargames, so of course it was. If that's the case, I'm perfectly happy to let them continue thinking we're scary nazi grognards.

>>51216003
>Does tumblr play OSR?
Nope, just Pathfinder.

>>51216003
>I think it had to do with it being traditionalist/reactionary in nature

Joke's on them, I'm a goddamned anarchist.

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>>51215337
>WHY we prefer either more or fewer classes and which systems best accomplish those goals.
Cool, I'll bite.

I prefer classes to serve an iconic literary precedent. So first I look at my inspiration and work out what a class might do. Then I ask myself if the idea is best served by an entirely new class, or just adapting or expanding a basic one to fit.

So, for example, I wanted to ditch the Demihuman classes for Human classes in a "historical" game. I decided to base the Elf on a Thief/Mage, like Johnathan from The Mummy. But as I horsed around with the idea, I realized that it was easier to make a magic skill that Specialists could access (and Mages play with) and provide an alternative to a cantrip system. So that class was out.

I was already planning to reskin Halflings as Pygmies, which really didn't require any adaptations to function.

So I turned to Dwarf, and realized that none of the existing classes really covered Tonto, or any of the other "noble savage sidekick" role. That earned a class, with a choice between a more warrior/hunter-oriented role, or a Witch Doctor, depending on your Constitution score. I also added a few thematic items (like gris-gris/juju/medicine bags and bone armor) to the item list

I also eventually added in some rules for Changelings (as a variant to Magic-users), which is basically a change to the way they learn magic spells and some flavor elements.

Ultimately, whether I use a new class from someone else boils down to:
• Is it cool? (purely subjective, I know)
• Does it do something unique compared to the basic classes?
• Can it make a character that "feels" like a major literary type?
• Is it simple to roll up and level up? I don't want to have to hold the player's hand for thirty minutes every time they get XP

Along these lines, I do like Zak's "random" classes, because they do cool shit, simply (I can hand the player a card with the level up stuff on it), and serve fun tropes (like the Alice/Jack)

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>>51216077
>I do like Zak's "random" classes

Do people actually like these? I assumed players would hate them and they'd be little more then a thought experiment if anything.

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>>51216003
>Does tumblr play OSR?
Yeah, there's quite a few of us on there. Just look past the screaming faggots for things like outofcontextDandD. I hang out on tumblr because my old roommate from the Navy draws porn and talks about his games there. It's also a good place to find inspirational art, libraries that post shots of their manuscript collections, and museums throwing up images of treasure hoards and jewelry.

I mean, it IS still full of teenage morons and reactionaries, but there's some redeeming value.

>>51215629
We talked a bit about it in an earlier thread. I like the idea. Gives the Cleric a very different bag of tricks, and comes with the added benefit that they'll be doing a lot of spiritual work right before tough battles or dangerous adventures.

As for praying for miracles--I don't think I would care to give players a 1 in 6 chance of making almost any crazy thing happen practically at will. Maybe in a gonzo one shot.

Either it's restrained by arbitrary GM fiat or it's a deck of many things. Unfortunately I have to say I'd dump the miracles altogether.

I do fear the Cleric loses some flavor by just having a pool of pips that make game numbers go up and down, but fighters really don't get anything but bigger numbers either.

Perhaps my best endorsement is that I don't really like playing clerics in most games, but I would play this kind of cleric.

>>51216130
IIRC he says you can either choose the normal level up abilities, or roll on the table to see if you get something cool.

>>51216003
>Someone once intimated that me playing old school D&D is emblematic of far right, problematic, etc. views. I think it had to do with it being traditionalist/reactionary in nature, a small step from sharing the same attitude in politics, denying progress and all that

That's... What? The guy who got me into OSR is a Black Jamaican Socialist (not even kidding about this) while we were eating curry chicken at his place. Maybe they are the ones being fairly narrow minded? Then again, it's a condition of being at any fringe. Even "radical centrists" will tune out non-centrist theories and discussion just as well as radical statists, anarchists, progressives, libertarians, communists and fascists.

>>51215629
Look at d6 Fantasy's miracles. Yes, I talked about it last thread; no, I'm not a shill, it's free and WEG is ded.

so i'm entering a MASSIVE 2nd edition dungeon crawl, i made a full detailed post about it here:
>>51215898
and someone suggested i ask you guys about it.
what mundane things can i use to help me in a crawl?
assume the only magical item's i'll ever see are my +1 short sword and my +1 leathers. also, the GM is actively trying to kill us and admits it.

>>51216159

Thanks, really appreciate this feedback. The idea was I wanted to keep the 'core' role and flavor of the cleric without having to worry about different mechanics for turning and preparing spells that's too similar to an MU, etc.

I do still like the idea of a miracle though, since it makes them actual feel like a priest praying for something, but maybe I could restrict it to a story moment or quest related hook, or maybe like a name level thing. OR you could just divorce the concept of clerics doing miracles and just have miracles things that happen, sometimes to random burning bushes in the desert or sometimes around clerics and priests, who knows.

>>51216209

I don't remember if I told you this last time, but I already did AND it's nowhere near good enough. Nothing about it is snappy, quick, and it revolves around 'skills' and builds and shit. Not interested, at all.

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>>51216171

Sounds an awful lot like you could make """builds""" in that game

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>>51216130
A couple of the more gambling-friendly players in my group thought the Alice was interesting when we poked through R&PL, so I showed them the rest of his stuff. One of them liked the Witch/Warlock rules and went for them. I'm not gonna bitch if the players want to do something that simple and flavorful. Now one of the players can eat birds' eyes to see what they have seen, and belly dance to charm the Djinn.

>>51216246
>what mundane things can i use to help me in a crawl?
Oil. Lots and lots of oil.

>>51216304

Nah, random tables negate builds. You can wish real hard that you got #5 three times and #2 twice to get some kind of synergy thing that you think will make you OP, but if you roll an 8, a 3, a 7, a 1, and a 5, you're SOL, buddy.

>>51216325
Someone already told him that

Do you prefer to map dungeons in five foot squares or ten foot squares?

>>51216304
Maybe... though it's hard to plan a build when you're rolling off a d100 table.

And at the risk of heresy, who cares if somebody wants to play a "buildy" OSR game.

>>51216260
I think I'd really get into describing those faith effects, ie how they look different from one religion to another.

Rather than a miracle, I might have a small list of spell effects exclusive to a religion in the setting (ie religious mysteries). Stuff like astral projection, or an immunity to fire, that have a fixed cost in faith points.

Not gonna lie, I'm probably gonna steal your idea a little.

>>51216325
yeah, the DM is known for punishing people with lots of oil.

i did flip through the herbs and plants section of the 1st edition DMG for a few things but it doesnt make a lot of sense for a thief with no training in herbalism to carry around tons of herbs and plants.

also there is a beetle room coming up and i need some sort of natural insect repellant or something similar.

>>51216246

Chalk to mark things. Ten foot pole to test suspicious ground or poke thing that look dangerous. Lots of rope. A hand mirror for signalling, peeking around things, and reflecting light at stuff. Iron spikes to bar doors with, in case you don't want something coming through them, like if it's chasing you. Caltrops and oil can help with that, too.

Also tell your DM the /tg/ grognards said not to be such a fag, a good old school DM is a referee, not a killer. It's the dungeon that wants to kill you, the DM should just be there to impartially watch and see how it turns out.

>>51216294
>it revolves around 'skills' and builds and shit
You do realize that you can mod out skills and builds, right?

>>51216396
how do i carry ten foot poles around?

>>51216453
Break them into 5-foot pools then tie them back together with rope.

>>51216482
i feel like that wouldnt be so good for testing ground

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>>51216003
>>51215849
Woman
Prime Req: DEX
HD: 1d6
Max Level: 6
Level as Halfling

Requirements:
DEX 9
STR < 14
7 < INT < 14

May not use large or 2H weapons. May use any bikini armor. Womans' alignment is always chaotic. Womans will speak the common tongue, alignment language and woman. Assume Mind Blank is permanently active.

Name Levels
1. Waif
2. Wench
3. Virgin
4. Maiden
5. Madame
6. Bride

Abilities
Seduce. Follow Turn Undead Table. Turn = Charm until concentration broken. Destroy = Charm until dispelled or disillusioned on love.

>>51216453

Get a folding one, obviously. You're not playing in a caveman setting, so hinges should be a thing.

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>>51216453
Like a pike, in your hands. Only one character should be toting the pole anyway, and it only takes a round to ditch it and grab out a different weapon. Alternately, just get a pike or spear and use that; you can even sidestep in the first round if you get jumped so one of the other players can tank for you and use the spear from the second "rank".

>>51216536

This is good advice, too. Never underestimate the power of a second rank of dudes with spears. Though don't rely on being able to fight with your "ten foot pole" spear, since there's a chance it might get munched by a trap. Anything you poke into mysterious holes in the wall or whatever should be deemed expendable.

>>51216492
Rope is questionable, but if it screws in or has a hinge+latch then you should be fine.

>>51216498
I don't know the Turn Undead chart off hand, but can 6th level Clerics even Destroy anything?

>>51216453
With your hands?

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>>51213908

I'm skimming through The Bottled City right now, it's a pretty neat look back in time. Pretty crazy so far.

>>51216649

I've always wanted to make a hub city loosely inspired by the city of Kandor from the Superman comics. Looks like I'm not completely alone there.

Giving it a read through.

Is there an event/encounter table for a space fantasy game knocking around? Im looking for something that's basically warp encounters.

>>51209689
You're a fucking nigger faggot cum sucking twink toilet spaghetti sauce anus chancre catamite BITCH

>>51216649
Looks like a guy sucking a fucking dick

>>51216902
What did he mean by this?

>>51216246
Your DM seems to want to run a realism simulator with D&D rules which is plain stupid.

Also
>actively trying to kill characters
That's extremely retarded. The DM sounds like a douchebag who doesn't know to run an RPG.

Honestly the best advice I can give you is bail out of the game before it even begins.

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>>51216606
in LL, they start at 6th. 4th for skeletons in 0e.

>>51215221
So what? If there's stuff to argue about, there's no reason to not do it.

>>51211810
Honestly, the LotFP system breaks down here. A two-wheeled oxcart can transport either six two-handed swords, thirty regular swords or one small box of 3k coins? That's ridiculous. The dot system makes sense as an abstraction for human burdens, but once you start dealing with loading vehicles it has to be straight weight, with a common-sense exception for volume (classically, the amount of straw required to fill a cart doesn't remotely approach the axle's maximum safe burden. Hence why PCs can hide in it!)

1k coins weigh about four kilograms (9lbs, I think?), to a reasonable approximation. Conversely, there's no such thing as even a light cart that can't carry a ton of weight, so, you can realistically load hundreds of thousands of coins on one cart, or load them on one mule.
Again, coin metal is very heavy, so these coins aren't bulky either. You could probably load enough money to buy a castle onto an oxcart in bags, then buy a hayrick for a couple pennies and pile hay over the bags until nobody could tell there was any money there at all.

When I think about it, I don't even think I came up with that myself, I think it's an episode in Howard Pyle's Robin Hood book.

>>51216984
Discussion should lead to progress, otherwise it's endless and pointless bickering that does nothing except spread resentment and makes the generals worse and decidedly non-comfy.

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>>51209689

>Ancientfag wallowing in his childhood nostalgia and mixing it in with his understand and experience with DnD
>Hur we didn't believe in things like 'all classes should matter!' because that would mean a well designed game and we didn't want that!
>Kids these days getting participation trophies, because we know everybody born past my birthdate+1 is a wussy coward liberal lmao
>You can't capture the feeling of oldschool DnD even with the same rules and playing it that same, and only then rarely, because WE were just cut from a different cloth back then

What a fucking faggot. I hated every second of reading this shitty article. Literally a grognard weakly trying to challenge all modern day gamers and younger people to live up to his rose tinted goggles and shit. What a fucking ponce.

>>51216130
>Do people actually like these?
I really like the random Wizard. If you like magic to be chaotic and weird, having the class produce unpredictable benefits is great.

>>51217006
Agreebio. As late as a couple months ago we were able to have polite disagreements in these threads, where people would go "do it that way if you like it, but here are the problems that may come up, this is why I avoid it myself" instead of "REEEEE" and endless yes-no-yes loops. One of those things is good and the other shits up threads.

>>51217006
Yes, but if it's a stalemate and one of the sides keeps on pushing their views, why shouldn't the other side keep on making arguments?

Civilized arguments don't spread resentment. People who don't know how to handle discussions with human beings do.

>>51217273
this

>>51217251
the only time complaints start cropping up about shitting up the thread is when it becomes the opposite of yes-no-yes and people start going into detail because it takes up a lot more space. and it's apparently autistic. let it run its natural course. I don't often participate in the debates but I still find most all of them interesting.

Sell me on Yoon-Suin.

>>51215003
The truest way

>>51217409

You rike opium? You rike srug men?

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>>51216923
>What did he mean by this?
The most coherent meaning I can acquire is-
"A slender, boyish and blonde Italian black, kept in sexual slavery for the purpose of receiving irrumatio, yet with all the charm and delight of a haemmerhoid".
Also, the use of "bitch", "toilet", and "cum-sucking" is generally redundant in homosexual circles, as they are all widely understood to imply recievership.

>>51217005
That's for the horse to move unencumbered, though. Under normal lading, you can carry a Hell of a lot more; a four-horse team, pulling a two-axled wagon that was packed by a Teamster, can carry 120 items/bundles of items at a rate of 24 miles/day. Which is entirely reasonable. Oxen also get an encumbrance point bonus but lose speed over horses. I do agree the original 10coin/1# abstraction was completely bullshit, since an ounce and a half of gold is worth a shitload in any age and no-one was minting anything >near< that big for actual circulation.

>>51217409
I've been meaning to ask, is it in the trove?

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Well, kind of late in the thread but I finished my 50 peddlers of strange wares request. Each is a strange peddler and each has a strange and usual fitting item.

Hope you enjoy it, original requesters.

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>>51209689
>hit die (which means something totally different than it was supposed to)

Then what the fuck did it mean if not like hit points or health points?

>>51217409
Do you want to have a useful and flavourful toolkit to create the campaign from scratch? Interesting monsters? Non-european fantasy that doesn't ram tons of lore down your throat and is actually designed to be gameable? Tables for opium houses and elephant stables? Example locations? Content for urban- and hexcrawling for months? Look no further.

>>51217744
Retarded joke and so are you.

>>51217962
Supplements -> Settings

>>51218110
Fire as always.

>>51218110
>Voice echoes from a crack in the wall
FUCK YES

Anyone know of modules made for sexual fetishes?

Completely fucked up stuff to appeal to a fetish crowd?

I'm interested for the sake of "science".

>>51218598

Anything put out by Reggi for LotFP. Fuck for Satan and Slugs are good examples.

>>51218608
It's worth noting that FfS is a joke module.

>>51218110
Is someone bundling these? It will make for a great book some day!

>>51218626
What would you call it? 50 Lists?

>>51218608
FfS is nto fetish enough. Yeah there is an orgy and a walking penises but is just for shit and giggles.

I'm curious if anyone ever tried to make a serious module with fetishes in mind.

>>51218696

Encounter Anon here. I would almost be willing to ruin my """reputation""" by writing one, but it would have to be a good fetish. Feet, Fat, and Futa can fuck right off.

>>51216003
I don't hang out on tumblr but I am a massive lefty socialist. I play OSR because I wanted simpler games with less player-facing mechanics, that's all.

>>51218732
Cucking? 8 legs and 7 vaginas? Loli?

>>51218633
Lol idk

Has anyone played the LL stonhell mega dungeon module? I'm thinking about using it as the framework for my mega dungeon. Isle of dread will probably be my overworld

>>51218608
>Slugs
DO you have a pdf?

I could just be missing them, but does anyone have PDFs (or other formats) of the Castle Oldskull supplements?

>>51219941
>Castle Oldskull
I've never even heard of it. Tell us about it, Anon!

>>51220199
It's just some DM supplements from the guy who wrote the Hawk & Moor books, which are a D&D history thing that's less groggy and academic than Playing at the World, more conversational and well probably a bit less accurate and more speculative.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CASTLE-OLDSKULL-GWG1-Role-Playing-Supplements-ebook/dp/B00HR6UOI8

He's got a couple of them up on DriveThruRPG as well.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/7178/Kent-David-Kelly

>>51210517
>If you run out of healing surges youre fucked no potion or wand will save you
Don't worry, Mike Mearls first fixed that with Essentials! And then made 5E, the perfect nu-grog D&D.

>>51211603
This. People talk about the "elegance" of OD&D as if it sprung fully formed from Gygax's head with full consideration given to every possible permutation of the ruleset instead of just kludging shit in as they went along.

>>51220302
>he doesn't like kludges born of actual play
Next I suppose you'll tell us you hate your mother and don't like steak.

>>51220374
My mother is a SAINT and steak owns.

>>51220384
Well, two outta three ain't bad, as Meat Loaf says.

How do you guys handle dualwielding ? Have any good methods on how to make it fun and balanced ?

>>51216077
Youre not writing a book so i dont get the obssession with literary type

>>51220734
For "fun", I think you should go with the extra attack at a penalty.
For "balanced", go with that +1 to-hit solution that a bunch of people like for that exact reason.

Personally I have yet to decide how I want to handle it, because HEMA has made me a sperg about dual-wielding. It's *really hard* to pin down the effect that the interplay of the weapons has on how you fight.

>>51220809
Well when we are making everything abstract about HP and AC given from armor we can atleast come up with some kind of balanced rules for some one that wants to fight with 2 one-hande axes/swords even tho it didn't happen on the medieval battlefield.

>>51220734
>>51220809
Dual-wielding giving double attacks is ridiculous and stupid, and a prime example of how shit some nerds made up based on ignorance can be laundered from game to media-inspired-by-game back to game until it's widely accepted as "of course that's how it should work."

Treat it as either upgrading your main weapon to a two-handed version, or as a shield.

>>51220857
>Treat it as either upgrading your main weapon to a two-handed version, or as a shield.

That makes a lot of sense.

>>51220857
So if you dualwield 1d8 weapons you deal 1d10 in damage, or you can choose to deal 1d8 in damage and gain +1 AC ?

>>51220873
Yes, but I'd also say it's based on dual-wielding at all, and if you're dual-wielding 1d8 weapons (what, longswords?) then you're being silly. I mean, go ahead, but it won't get you any real bonus over a proper parrying dagger whatsit.

The benefit of dual-wielding a +4 Fire Explosions Longsword and a +2, +6 vs Angry Goblins Longsword With Bonus Cold Damage is that you get to pick which to attack with each round, and whether you're getting d10 base damage or d8 base damage and +1 AC.

>>51221003
I just want it as an option so that if a player wants to make a fun character that dualwield dosen't lack to muck in AC or DMG for not going 2-handed master race or sword & board.

>>51220857
>Dual-wielding giving double attacks is ridiculous and stupid
But undeniably the most enjoyable option for the player. That's why it's the solution that got traction, and that's why I put it under the "fun" heading specifically. Of course I disavow it as nonsense in terms of realism.

/osrg/, I have a long distance friend of mine and his girlfriend coming tomorrow, friend is familiar with pbp RPGs, never played tabletop. I have about 2 hours of prep all things to considered. I'm using Into the Odd for a maximum chargen speed.

Any creative ideas for a dungeon that can be "finished" in one session? Not a final boss but some sort of win condition.

I'm pretty drunk right now so please feed me any idea you have, I'll be grateful. Fitting modules work too.