/STG/ Star Trek General

Whoops. I fuxxored the last thread link.

THIS was the real last thread >>49848300

So are these Armada games good?

>>49869526
I played Star Trek Armada waaay back in the day, it was okay.

Star Trek Armada III is a total conversion mod for Sins of a Solar Empire, and I like it a lot, but it's a complex PitA to get working. When it works, though, it works really well, but it kind of suffers from the same problem Sins suffers from in that "ordinary" ships are disposable throwaways, which feels cheap for Starfleet vessels.

So now that Worf and Kahless are determined to get Klingon culture out of its funk, what do you think their civilization will do next? Will they return to the way they were in TOS or the TOS movies? Will they evolve into something new? Will the defining moment of this era of their culture be rapidly expanding into Romulan territory after their star blows up?

>>49869526
1 and 2 are decent strategy games. Honestly I prefer Birth of the Federation. But STA3 is fantastic. There's excellent attention to detail in the ship models. It has a decent scaling option for difficulty. There's really nothing like fighting the Borg.

>>49870024
I think the Klingons are beyond saving. Their military is in tatters. Their economy is run into the ground. I think it would be interesting to see the Empire break down into a series of warring feudal states.

>>49870128
Tend to agree. Think the Romulans would make a move on their border or do they have their own problems to worry about? Sorry, I haven't kept up with current events.

>>49870206
I'd say the Romulans are in full isolation mode. No ships in, no ships out. I'd have to wager that the Romulans are much more worried by the Klingons invading than the Federation, so a larger portion of their fleet would be stationed against them.

>>49870024
Kahless is the resurrection of a man who lived when the Klingons were primarily arable farmers and Worf has a somewhat skewed and idealized view of what a Klingon should be.

If the society was rebuilt on their approved lines it would turn into Saxons + Samurai and it would be awesome.

>>49870128
This is precisely why they are in for a big revival. Culturally they are as confident as can be, yet the war got rid of a lot of the surplus warrior population. They've got Martok and Worf at the top, where they can make a lot of minor reforms to help patch the most glaring holes.
>>49870206
>>49870244
Romulans were not better-off after the war than the Klingons. For """"Shinzon's"""" coup to have succeeded at all, there would have to have been a lot of social upheaval already in the works. Freeing an entire planet's worth of slaves isn't going to go down easy, no matter how it happens, and that happened in the worst possible way, in the public eye. I'm also sure there was a great purging of the Tal Shiar, at least as far as day-to-day oppressing goes. And after all that, some furner comes in and takes out the pride of their military and the public face of the government.
Oh, and then their homeworld and population center gets blown to bits.
In the STO timeline, after the Shinzon thing the RSE gets into a 3+ way civil war, sorta, which only gets worse after their home planet blows up. The Klingons invade Romulan space all during this time, with varying degrees of success. (They might have Shakespeare, but they didn't read their Machiavelli; which, if they did, they would have known that foreign invasions are the kind of thing that unites armed factions, and those are generally the worst times to do such an invasion.) Of course, they are also fighting the Gorn, and a two-front war, even if both are relatively minor, is too much for even the Klingons, and eventually this leads to Martok's downfall.

>>49869071
>We have to build a graviton array grid and get the Klingons to pay for it.

>>49870593
There's also the issue of the Federation sticking its dick in to the pie. One has to assume that if the Klingons and Romulans go to war, Starfleet will be involved somehow. Likely in the same fashion as when they provided relief to the Cardassians when crazy-eyes decided to invade them.

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So, anyone who's played Starfleet Command knows this little beast.

I had a question, though, for those who have played SFC, and also the Deciphertrek RPG.
Starfleet Command and Empires at War has photon torpedoes and all the usual goodies, but it also has missiles - called drones in the parlance. They're a lot slower than photon torpedoes, but they track unerringly and home in. They CAN be run out of fuel, or held at bay with a tractor beam, shot down with phasers (and indeed, there's a phaser type, the PhG, which is pretty much purpose-built for doing just that,) and the like, but if you don't do one of those things, they ARE going to wreck your shit.

How would you model that in Deciphertrek? A missile barrage becomes its own 'ship' and closes on the target, and impacts the target on the round it closes to point-blank range?

>>49871452
And like in much the same manner as when they offered the hand of friendship to the Spoonheads you be your ass doing so will result in the benefactors then going to war with the Federation afterwards.

Federation isn't good at learning from history.

>>49871491
Standing for your principles can be a pain I suppose.

>>49871580
After the 3rd time a child touches the stove and gets burned you have to admit that the child is not smart.

>>49871594
Burning your hand and providing humanitarian(xenotarian?) aid are 2 separate things. Making the shitty choice because it's the right thing to do has its merits.

>>49870451
So a friend of mine recently argues that the Klingons are so fucked-up because an alien race colonized and exploited them when they were still pre-warp. Was Molor a klingon, or not? It seems like he was, since it's unlikely that a warp civilization could be wiped out with Iron Age technology. But then, this being Star Trek, maybe some random calamity happened to Molor's civilization, Kahless took the credit for it, and today's klingons are actually hybrids of their two species.

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>>49871452
>>49871491
Well, DESU I don't think the Feds are just doing this shit out of kindness. When you have Space Mongols, Nazis and Romans at your borders, it's most likely in your best interest that they beat on each other to maintain balance in the region. But you never want one to get too powerful or wipe the others out because then they might look at you as their next target. I think that's why in STO while your in a war with Klingons. You can still be willing during that to help Romulans fight off Klingon attacks because doing that helps balance out the statue quo. Of course, that doesn't stop the Romulans from stabbing you in the back later but that's later. So for the now you give help to the loser to weaken the winner so he can't do much else but hold ground after. The Feds might be peaceful but they aren't total idiots and will /pol/ the shit out of a situation if they can.

>>49871614
Not when it's proven to fuck over more people down the line every single time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No4x94WLMH8

>>49871636
I think he was referring to the Fek'Lhir. Those skeletor looking chuckle-fuckers that Worf fights on the holodeck. They invaded Quo'nos when the Klingons were still medieval.

>>49871656
If the Federation was so concerned with preserving the lives of it's citizens and imposing some sort of peace on the quadrant they would have actually build more than a few dozen ships between Kirk era and Piccard era to patrol the space they owned.

As it is they let their citizens die and then investigate what killed them after the fact whilst relying on 100+ year old wrecks for ferry work.

And they constantly interfere in affairs of other governments to keep shit stirred up so no one can challenge their weakness.

And in a closed system that might actually work for a very long time. But then Starfleet got Cubed.

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>>49871656
>People are saving my edits :3

I also generally agree with your assessment.

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>>49871708
100-year-old? Maybe.
> Wreck?

No, anon. This is not a wreck. This is a Miranda-class Light Cruiser. It has enough firepower to glass a planet if it wants to. Even 80 years on after its keel was laid down, with regular refits, this baby will blow any pirate who thinks he's a hard man making hard decisions right through his own warp core.

The problem isn't the ships. The problem was that the Federation lacked the will to use them.

Then, as you say
> Then Starfleet got Cubed
and they rapidly began unfucking their shit.

>>49871738
Do one of one of my Mirandas, then maybe I'll save it, PhotoFilterAnon.

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>>49871756
Give me a couple of hours. I'll need to buy a Miranda in STO and get some decent shots. At the moment the only Miranda shots I have are of ones exploding.

>>49871806
Could you make an edit out of my ship if i posted it?

>>49869071
Why would you insult James T. Kirk with this meme

>>49871921

Because he's the biggest Feddie blowhard who wasn't part of the Parade of Evil Admirals.

>>49871885
>>49871746
As in this one? Yeah I can give a shot at the Isometric, if that's what you're looking for.

>>49871964
Get fucked.

Kirk was the last Starfleet admiral who knew how shit worked.

Some time you got apply the razor blade of common sense rather then the hammer of general policy.

Kirk saw an extinction level asteroid heading towards a planet full of primitives and that rock got blown the fuck up.

Piccard stood by and watched a world die.

>>49871997
Nope, i was thinking more of posting a pic of my STO ship.

btw, im not the miranda anon.

>>49872050
Yeah cool, that works too

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>>49872061
Here ya go.

If the 3D ship printing service is a success, is it possible that cryptic could expand it to include BOFFs? I have some Andorian and Orions I'd love to print...

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>>49872125
How do you feel about this? Or had you a style in mind?

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>>49871746
>The problem isn't the ships. The problem was that the Federation lacked the will to use them.
For very good reason, too, if you hate that part blame the creator of the whole thing, Gene. Since he wanted a uplifted and peaceful humanity in the future. So if you don't like the limp dickness of Feds from your pov then I don't Trek is for you. The problem is that he thought that if we just had better tech we could be better people but as has been shown that's not exactly the case. And the other more practical reason, is that Feds see how everyone else is want to not be them. Instead of conquer, you try and talk the other guy in joining your club. In the end, it can end in less hurt feelings and him not wanting to backstab you first chance he gets of course not always. And the way the UFP is organized a full time war footing probably wouldn't sit well with the average citizen for too long. Since you would need to get in an arms race with every other space empire to keep up. Martial law and utopia don't really get along really well you see.

>>49872409
Looks great to me.
Thanks anon.

>>49872434
>implying they'd be able to hold onto that much territory for long if they didn't keep up with the rest of the quadrant in military power

Oh, my sweet summer child. Pacifists' property belongs to the first person who wants to take it away from them.

>>49872434
That only works if the person you are appeasing shares the same outlook as you do.

As should be obvious from even the last few threads this is not the case with most people. Start taking other species into this and all those kind gestures quickly become mostly meaningless.

Throwing away your sword to show you are peaceful isn't going to work with nausicaans. They ae going to see it is a sigh of submission. Help to rebuild them after a war is going to be seen as tribute from a people scared of you doing it to them again.

Not employing an armed patrol fleets is a sign that you value the lives of your people very little.

Diplomacy only works if the other guy wants to be diplomatic.

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>>49872556
>Pacifists' property
>UFP
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!
They aren't warmongers like everyone else but they will kick your shit in if you start something. See Feds will fight if you something they believe is worth fighting over. The whole trying innocent fed citizen lives is one of them. The other is if you're a colonist where someone tells you have to move or wants to take that land for themselves. That's when you get a face full of phaser. See UFP citizens really just want to be nice people the problem is all their neighbors are assholes.

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>>49872434
>>49872668
Not this shit again.

If this continues, I'm going to make a bingo card:
>Free space: ALL CAPS
>Crossing the line at warp nine
>Trek is not for you

Reply if you want to help with the construction of this sad, sad game.

>>49872668
They can't do that if they don't keep up with the local arms race. And since they have to be constantly fighting anyway, whether or not they want to fight is kind of a moot point.

>>49872485
Sure thing, anon. Happy to help

>>49872668
Bullshit.

Klingons raid human worlds for decades before a war against them is declared.

War happens.

Feds half ass it. Klingons go to war with Feds twice more by start of STO.

Spoonheads attack Feds.

War happens. Feds half ass it give the Spoonheads land so they don't have sads.

Spoonheads get humanitarian help from Feds during Spoon vs Ridge war.

Spoons join Dominion and go to war with Feds.

Ferangi privateers raid Fed ships and colonies for fun and profit. Feds do nothing because they totally aren't part of the Commerce Guild, oy vey no why with all the persecutions?

Federation cares more about peace than the cost of the peace.

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>>49872724
All I could think of

>>49873079
>what if star trek was 40k?
>Gul Dukat is the Best
>HEUG ships

just suggestions

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>>49873079
Holy shit, never let it be said that /stg/ does not get shit done.

Top row is way too easy to complete as it stands though. Perhaps that was your point...

I feel like the Maquis should be in there somewhere. Maybe Section 31 too, though I only started hanging out in these threads recently.

---

On a completely different topic, I just bought a used copy of the DS9 companion. Did I fuck up? I remember liking it when it was still in print and I saw it at the bookstore, but I was too poor to buy it then.

>>49873251
Do you mean the Technical Manual? That's a good one. Though mine is falling apart.

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>>49871756
Here's a couple

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>>49873309
And from the front

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>>49873319
And finally one beside an Excelsior, because they're the tits

>>49873334
This is just beautiful, anon.

>>49873351
Thanks, the Lakota and the Berkley are placed perfectly around Earth space-dock for shots like that.

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>>49873290
Negative, though I did ponder picking that up too. Going to see if the Companion has what I'm looking for first. I remember there being some sweet concept art in there.

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>>49873251
>>49873238
ok

>>49872047
None of that is false, nor is any of it mutually exclusive with him being a huge blowhard, anon.

>>49872434
> Posting Chief fucking O'Brien, the poster boy for why the Cardies should have had the shit kicked out of them the first time, and that load of steaming dung.
Pls go and stay go.

>>49873309
>>49873319
>>49873334
Oh yes, those are things of beauty.

>>49873514
Fukkin saved. Thanks for brightening my workday, anon.

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Has anyone here actually read The 50-Year Mission?

>>49873079
"Commander, tell me about your sexual organs."

>>49873514
You forgot "MY headcanon isn't the same as YOUR headcanon, so you're wrong." The cornerstone of any trek fight.

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>>49874355
That's a pretty good one

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Franklin is a sexy bitch desu

>>49875229
I want that.

>>49875229
Ehhhh no. It still joins the rest of the Kelvin timeline's material in looking over designed and ugly except in very specific circumstances. It is better looking than anything except the Kelvin itself however.

>>49875523
It is at least better proportioned than most of that universe's starfleet ships with the nacelles not too oversized or close together.

>>49872742

And yet despite that the Federation remains the largest, richest, most stable, most advanced civilization in space. What does that tell you? I'm going to guess "nothing."

It is core to the fiction of Star Trek that humans accept the risks that come with their "limp dick" approach to militarism, diplomacy and combat tactics/strategy because they are morally proper. People who think and talk like you are universally "the bad guys."

Its you anon, you are the Evil Admiral.

>>49875679
Evil Admiral cares about the lives of the people he is supposed to be protecting.

Good Admiral considers civilian lives to be currency to be exchanged for good boy points.

>>49875679
And it's kind of bullshit that they never have to live with the consequences of doing the right thing, like we have to in the real world. Things will always work out for the sake of the status quo in Star Trek, so of course you do the right thing, because why wouldn't you when the consequences are the same whether you do right or wrong?

>>49875891

You would wash out of Starfleet on day 1 brah. They don't want people who think killing and oppressing are the best means to safeguard lives just because they are the.most certain means

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>>49875891
Best Admiral is running a Galaxy class renamed the USS Love Boat, has almost all the science and shit facilities removed in favour of even more holodecks and entertainment facilities, and is running a 24/7 party ship that travels around raising morale for the fleet.

>>49875968
I've already done this joke, involving holograms of Riker and a female sexpot, and the words "Please state the nature of sexual emergency."

>>49875942
Honestly, I think I'd tend toward the opposite extreme, doing things exactly by the book without worrying about the collateral damage. Why hold innocent lives higher than Starfleet principles when it's not those innocent lives who decide whether you get promoted?

The novels suggest that this was Sulu's style of command. When Sulu took the Kobayashi Maru exam, he chose not to go into the Neutral Zone to rescue the Kobayashi Maru and just watched all her crew die, probably while sipping tea.

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>>49875968
>even more holodecks
What if all the living space in your ship was a holodeck /stg/? What would you do with it?

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So which space empire outside of the UFP is the most oppressive to its citizens? I think this might be a really close call since there are race in Star Trek we know hardly anything about really.
>INB4 Borg
Not really an Empire more a force of nature at this point. So let's just say the alpha region of the galaxy, ok?

>>49876310
Cardassians treat their own people almost as badly as they treat everyone else.

HYPOTHETICAL THREAD HIJACK

So, Spock doesn't fuck up and gets to Hobus on time with the Red Matter. He tosses it in just in time, and saves Romulus. Romulans are fucking thrilled.

Q goes "Actually, I rather like JJ Abrahms, fuck you." and then blows up Sol instead in the exact same way. So now, Earth and Sol system are ruined instead.

What happen?

>>49876190
Themed areas like the Crystal Maze but with fewer puzzles.

>>49876310
Possibly the Tzenkethi. You're genetically assigned to a caste at birth, and IIRC, there are hierarchical languages, and that even knowing the higher caste languages is grounds for termination.

>>49876444
Q likes Humans too much to do that, Q would rather Q focus on their son, q, Q would prefer Q stop annoying the other Q by meddling with mortals, and the other Q are too busy residing in Civil War metaphors. So... yeah.

>>49876190
Pray that one of the seemingly endless things that could go wrong does not go wrong.

If I was captain of a ship all but one holodeck would be stripped out. Remaining holodeck is reserved for testing theoretical shit.

I don't fucking care if thats a bit mean. Read a book or artistically graffiti the walls or something. You'll than me later when you aren't fighting Professor Moriarty's army of holographic Nazis.

>>49875942
Having patrol fleets to defend against raider, pirates, reavers, hunters, slaver, borg and fucked up things with more teeth and the whole of Utah is considered an aggressive act? Why?

>>49876444
Okay lets take a shot at it.

I figure there's some rule that at least 5 members of the Federation council have to be out of system at all times so that, in the case of a catastrophic attack, there can be continuity of government. A fair bit of the Starfleet admiralty is taken out, but there's always a 5-pip or two hanging out on an Excelsior somewhere. So we can safely say that the hierarchy of the Federation doesn't collapse.

As for how the Federation responds. Everything goes into lock-down. Every major system puts their fleet on a war footing and awaits attack. A not insignificant number of minor races probably cash out and leave the Federation in the hopes of avoiding being damned by association. Vulcan or Alpha Centauri is probably the new provisional capital. A couple of probably initiate operation god-king a little early, thanks to the confusion.

The Romulans, still feeling chuffed about the Vulcans helping them not die, offer their unconditional support. Which of course, is a ruse for the Tal Shiar to start brainwashing starfleet personel, but hey, that's just the price of Romulan "aid". There's a not inconsiderable chance that most of the FEderation is going to end up as part of the "Greater Romulan Empire" in the coming decades.

Cardassians are too fucked to try Cardassian War 2.0 but still probably take a crack at Bajor for old time's sake.

Klingons try and take advantage. But Starfleet is taking no shit and start going full Section-31 on them. Plus the Romulans are involved now, so it's just a bloody, pointless border war. Alt-tg argue about it whether peace should be made, or not, incessantly

Dominion try some shit in the Gamma Quadrant and start rising to power once more. Odo complains. Nobody cares.

The real threat comes from enigmas like the Breen and the Tholians. They go after systems that bail on the Federation and end up bloating to a ridiculous size.

>>49876564
>considered an aggressive act? Why?
Well from the UFP pov it's a very large waste of resources and a very defensive stance that just invites paranoid among the citizens. It's better for them to believe they are safe than trying to go to great lengths to make them safe while scaring the shit out of them thinking something might happen. It's free utopia for everybody who wants to be a Fed. Hey, it sure a lot better than being a second class citizen anywhere else really.

Ok everyone, knock it off.

Just because Gene tried to prevent Star Trek from turning into cheap action schlock doesn't mean the Federation is Limp Dicked Pacifists. They have General Order 24 and make much of even the old Connie being able to glass planets. War is one of Starfleet's professions, winning it is one of their goals in the event their actions cannot prevent it. Preventing it is one of the main issues due to the fact people die in wars and they are trying ti prevent death. Anytime the big old Enterprise-D went into a fight and they took hits to their decks it was families that died even against a weaker enemy they outclassed. (side note D was basically a mobile base and part of the Galaxy Project of deep space modula cruisers that could also quickly establish colonies or mass evac)

Sun Tzu's Art of War is still required reading at the Academy. There is a Nova variant that carries thousands of torpedos it can rapid fire, a freaking Photon Torpedo Machine Gun. The old Connie could glass worlds and ships only got more powerful from there. And it is a statement of the power the federation has that their world destroyers as a standard cruiser is just their exploration vessels and nothing compared to the power they can put out with real warships.

>>49877255
Nebula as the torpedo machine gun.

>>49877255
I don't think anyone believes that the Federation are pacifists. True they'd rather live in peace whenever possible and will even extend diplomacy to the most heinous of enemies, but they won't seek out a fight unless it's absolutely necessary. They're prepared to fight and if anyone says that Starfleet isn't a military (Star Trek Beyond) then they're deluding themselves. A military with its primary orders to conduct scientific research and explore the galaxy, but a military all the same.

It doesn't help that in-universe everyone calls the Federation pacifists, even when the evidence says otherwise. Especially when the local Klingon, who is always right, starts shooting his mouth off about Starfleet weakness because they can't hide with cloaking devices.

>>49876500
>Themed areas like the Crystal Maze but with fewer puzzles.
You have sick sense of humor anon if it was me I'd do what's shown here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqRdT8m1Suo
Of course, I would keep the safety protocols on be I'd like my crew to have some fun and exercise while getting to work.

>>49877362

Starfleet isn't a military, its a peacekeeping and humanitarian force not unlike what the United Nations of today has at its disposal. They're a defacto military, but nobody in the Federation who isn't a cynical prick thinks of them in those terms.

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>>49877362
>will even extend diplomacy to the most heinous of enemies

Has this happened before? Because it seems like the best way to harm the Federation is to nonviolently exploit their principles and protocols. It would be easier to conquer the Federation from within than from without. One could point out - quite rightly - that humans enjoy a disproportionate share of power and influence, largely due to discriminatory recruiting practices in Starfleet, in a state that's supposed to treat all races equally. So you slowly draw power away from them and toward you and your buddies until you can legitimately outvote them, at which point they become your subjects.

>>49877582
>Starfleet isn't a military

Gene, please, this has been shown to be fucking retarded over and over, stop trying to push this. It is ok for you to acknowledge them as a military organisation. That doesn't make them bad in any way.

Why did the Federation move from circular saucers to ovoid and triangular saucers?

What was the point of making the saucer and drive sections separate and detachable? Wouldn't the ship be more solid if they were integrated components, like the Warbird or Cardassian ships?

Why did they almost always use two nacelles? Even the Klingons and Romulans seem to use dual nacelle designs.

Why did Vulcan ships use warp rings, and how come the Vulcan ships in TNG looked like dogshit if they're supposed to be so advanced?

>>49877582
>peacekeeping and humanitarian force
I know nobody writes stories about Star Trek milk runs but just how boring is the life of the average star fleet person not posted to a line ship? How about a regular UFP citizen for that matter? I'm getting it's much more 'exciting' to live in other empires of Star Trek with their food storages and annual purges.

>>49877690

Nobody said having a military was bad. The Klingons have a military and are generally portrayed as good people despite their flaws. If just having a military was immoral than the fiction wouldn't allow the Federation and Klingons to be allies.

That doesn't mean starfleet is a military. Because it isn't. Except in the defacto sense.

>>49877582
If it walks like a duck, anon. It's a military that places exploration and research higher than combat deployment, but will, and has, fought if needed. This is shown in dozens of episodes, not even counting the Dominion War. Picard was sent to the Neutral Zone with a fleet of ships to deter the Romulans, and if that doesn't sound like the Americans and Russians standing off during the Cold War then I don't know what does.

>>49877721
>Why did the Federation move from circular saucers to ovoid and triangular saucers?
Smaller cross section during battle. It's a more efficient way to protect your ship.

>What was the point of making the saucer and drive sections separate and detachable?
The saucer acts as a lifeboat in case of warp core breach.

>Wouldn't the ship be more solid if they were integrated components, like the Warbird or Cardassian ships?
The command pod of Klingon warships are ejection capable, the Romulans give no fucks about the crew, and Cardassians have pretty simple utilitarian ships, based off of the cultural bias of dying for the state being a good thing.

>Why did they almost always use two nacelles? Even the Klingons and Romulans seem to use dual nacelle designs.
Dual nacelle designs are the most stable for warp engines, due to technobabble. They're also the most maneuverable.

>Why did Vulcan ships use warp rings, and how come the Vulcan ships in TNG looked like dogshit if they're supposed to be so advanced?
Cultural stagnation. Warp Rings worked well enough for the Vulcans, so they didn't look into anything else.

>>49877814

Sounds like a peacekeeping mission to me.

>>49877814
That reminds me does the UFP have a standing army they can call on when needed? Like do they have a 'national guard' outside Star Fleet? Or does Star Fleet cover that too? They had marines in Enterprise so do they still have those or did they just roll that into Star Fleet later?

>>49877931
Going by episodes, it looks like Starfleet takes care of any and all disasters, humanitarian and combat needs. Gold wearing security forces were on the ground during the Dominion War.

>>49877814
>>49877905
Why are people pretending that "peacekeeping" is anything other than a term used to put a nice-sounding spin on war?

It's not that bad, I guess, to cover up the darker parts of your country's actions with euphemisms. It's certainly not unique. None of the US' wars have been declared by Congress since WWII. They've all been technically "police actions" or some such invention. The Federation probably doesn't officially recognize the Dominion War as a war, either. To them the last human war was WWIII, always and forever, regardless of how much fighting they've done since then.

>>49877931

Earth's military forces including the MACOs were reorganized under the banner of Starfleet Security sometime after the Federation was founded. I believe many individual planets.maintain planetary defense forces (Andoria and Vulcan almost certainly) but Earth and Betazed and many others have given them up entirely

>>49877999

A military is an organization who's first and primary concerns are the deterrence and destruction of the enemies of The State. Peacekeeping is not the same thing, which is why we don't say that the UN has an army, we say they have peacekeepers.

Starfleet does carry the burden of military duties, but they are literally last on their list, so far last in fact that they're not even written there, just understood to be there by implication. Which is why they aren't a military.

>>49877981
>Gold wearing security forces were on the ground during the Dominion War.
Seems like kind of a waste because didn't all those guys have to pass the entrance exam to the academy and go though 4 years of training? Would be better to have a reserve army made up of people who couldn't be asked to go doing all that shit but like shooting/killing things while playing soldier. Much better than draining Starfleet of its eggheads who just so happen can also shoot.

>>49878183

Most of Starfleet are enlisted men who just sign on so they can go see space, not academy grads.

>>49878183
Despite TNG and later series saying otherwise, there are NCOs in Starfleet other Chief O'Brien. The NCO corps would likely be your marine equivalent.

>>49878183
Security forces are made up of people who enlist, not those who went to the academy. If you went to the academy then you're on your way to being an officer. Someone like O'brian didn't go to Starfleet Academy.

>>49878098
>it's only a military if you call it a military
I didn't think anyone was actually stupid enough to fall for propaganda that blatant

>>49878227
>>49878228
Ok, now I'm curious is there any backstory to this enlisted part of Star Fleet? I want to know how you go about flying on a space ship in UFP without being an egghead? This could actually make me want to play a squad based rpg instead of everybody is a ship captain.

>>49878228
>>49878237

There are of course a full officers corps within Starfleet Security as well, its not all enlisted grunts. Same with Operations and any other Yellow Shirt branch. Blue Shirts probably mostly have rank by dint of their advance degrees and some special training outside normal officer schooling. Reds are.probably the only bunch that is mostly academy grads and most officers with almost no NCs.

>>49877721
Change in shape was due to advancing warp field theory. Also it looks cooler, and more advanced than the circular sections of earlier designs.

Separate drive and saucer sections was a safety thing, in case on section was severely damaged the other could operate as a lifeboat. Same thing with the Nacelles being out on pylons.

Nacelles in pairs is because it looks good. There was an attempt at a retcon to make it mandatory around the time TNG was being created but that didn't stick very long and was already invalid by the mid-point.

As for Vulcan rings; Looks cool, not much budget to spare for them on the TNG stuff as they were still using physical models for everything.

>>49878300
Eh? There was a huge contingent of noncoms in TOS and the original movies. Any time you see someone in the two tone maroon jumpsuit, that's an enlisted crewman. It's only TNG that suddenly made it so every member of the crew was an officer. The Enterprise and other Galaxy class ships being officer heavy makes sense, but other ships being set up that way is irritating.

>>49877095
It probably is better. Then you get got by putty forehead of the week. Then you wish your government had valued your safety enough to invest in at least some defensive measures.

>>49878300
>>49878395
Wait, so was Tasha Yar a NCO? They don't state it out right but it would make sense for her character. She didn't seem the academy material especially considering what we know of her background. So she got off the trailer park of a planet she was from and enlisted because the other path just seem too far fetched taking her past into account.

>>49878586
Nope, she was a lieutenant. Hell, O'Brien was an Ensign on the Enterprise initially, though I could believe that with his age. TNG was pants on head retarded and made literally everyone an officer on board. The Ten Forward wait staff are canonically ensigns.

>>49878586
She was at Tactical, so she had to have some kind of Academy training. I assume it's the same as anyone from Bajor, with Starfleet pushing these sad cases through so they could claim to have a token Bajoran on a Federation starship.

>>49878098
I have not found any definition of the word "military" that supports your statement. The ones I've seen are either fairly circular or based on the authorization to use deadly force by a state to advance its interests or those of its citizens. It doesn't matter if deadly force is your first resort or your last. In fact, claims they only ise it when they have no other choice, so even using that qualification to tell"good" militaries from "bad" ones is perfectly meaningless. If they have the means and the sanction to kill in the name of the state, they're a military.

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>>49878489
>Then you wish your government had valued your safety enough to invest in at least some defensive measures
Hey, it's not their fault that you didn't petition for that orbital defense grid when you had the chance. But they were all belly aching that none of them wanted that shit in their backyard. So what you going to do anon? I think that utopia can still be what it is even if you do add a few defense laser to the landscape. But what do I know.

>>49878257

The difference between a military and peacekeeping forces is not some meaningless propaganda semantics game skeeter. They have totally different mission statements. The military's job is to protect the State from its enemies, either by force to destroy or threat of force to deter. The job of peacekeepers is to prevent or suppress conflict. The priorities of the state and who it considers its enemies are a secondary concern at most, and the lives of both sides of the conflict are, in the ideal case, to be protected even at the cost of the peacekeeper's lives. Sisko gives a whole speech about this in the episode where Worf is courtmartialed for being framed of killing a shipful of Klingon civs. Sometimes Peacekeeprs use force to do their duty, but its always the last resort. For a military there is no first or last with force, only a determination of whether its employment is the most efficient option strategically.

That's why Starfleet isn't a military. They do have that military duty, the suppression or destruction of enemies of the state, but they only take on that duty when their duty as Peacekeepers has completely failed. That's why its not part of their mission statement or their normal approach to carrying out their duties to the Federation.

>>49878718
Oh but surely putting nasty oppressive weapons on a civilized world would be problematic and might make the Klingon feel shame about their rich cultural heritage of piracy.

>>49878917

Almost every planet in the Federation has orbital defenses. A lot of them are out of date, which is why Betazed fell to the Dominion, but they are there.

>>49878946
They might as well not be.

>>49877721
>always use two nacelles

What is the constellation class?

>>49878967

Not being able to hold off a full-fledged Dominion invasion fleet with enough manpower to occupy the entire planet within a matter of hours on its own doesn't exactly prove uselessness.

>>49879000
>A lot of them are out of date
The message there is "we used to care about you".

>>49878811
>the distinction between military and peacekeeping forces isn't meaningless because one "deters" while the other "prevents"
>the distinction between which is meaningless

If anything, you could say that peacekeeping forces aren't allowed to invade foreign soil while military forces are, but that would still place Starfleet firmly on the side of being a military. They leave Federation borders all the time.

>>49879060
That wasn't Starfleet's decision. Each member planet chooses what level, if any, of military equipment is on hand to defend the planet. The Betazoids preferred to not have much in the way of orbital defense platforms, nor did they have a sizable non-Starfleet contingent of vessels.

>>49879107
Then we have answered an important question.

What happens to a group of telepaths is one is clinically retarded?

Turns out it is contagious.

What sort of fucking idiot thinks "If we act really defenseless we couldn't possibly be attacked".

>>49879107
>The Betazoids preferred to not have much in the way of orbital defense platforms, nor did they have a sizable non-Starfleet contingent of vessels.
Well,
I guess it's really their fault then since the UFP was getting invaded by the likes of the Borg before then. They should have been screaming bloody murder for their planet to be better protected.
Speaking of which did they ever up gun the defenses for Earth during STO? I think they be stupid if they didn't since they were nearly conquered by the Borg TWICE! I would put the biggest fuck off energy weapons I could find and ring the planet with them for sure.

>>49879087

Nice intentional misread. The "deter," job of a military is, as I said very clearly, using the threat of force as a means to stop the enemies of the state from attacking it. Peacekeepers suppressing or preventing conflict are not doing so for the state's exclusive benefit, they are doing it for the mutual benefit of the two conflicting parties, even if the state which sponsors them is in no way involved, and indeed are bound by their mission statement to treat even their own state no differently from any other side in a conflict. Thats why Starfleet only "becomes," a military where their peacekeeping mission fails, IE when they are forced to defend Federation lives at the expense of others.

In Journey's End Picard worked just as hard to protect the lives of Gul Evec's officers as he did his own colonists, even though he made it crystal clear to Evec that if the moment came the colonists are who he would fight, and kill, to preserve. He was a Peacekeeper, there to make sure that conflict did not break out, not through the threat of force but by every means at his disposal with force as an absolute last resort. He said with crystal clarity that there would be a moment where he would take on the duties of a military officer, protecting the lives of his state's citizens first and foremost, but that moment would only come when his primary mission of stopping conflict and preserving every life on both sides had compleetely failed.

I don't see why this is a difficult concept for you to wrap your head around, other than to be intentionally contrarian or to justify your viewpoint on how Starfleet ought to operate, ie with more bloodlust.

Does anyone else find it kind of odd that apparently the Starfleet Judge Advocate General's Corp is a redshirt outfit? It seems like they should be blue. Law may not be a "science," per se, but its certainly a more intellectual pursuit and you need an advanced degree to practice it just like medicine and the sciences.

>>49879393
I think it shares the red uniform with Command because of its broad jurisdiction in Starfleet, like Sloan did when he posed as an Internal Affairs officer.

>>49879148
Maybe the issue is that not enough Betazoids wanted to enlist in the planetary defense forces. With no market forces to speak of and no draft or other coerced service, Federation citizens can do whatever job they want regardless of the demand for it.

>>49879254
Starfleet operates just fine, only using force when it makes sense for them and not needlessly antagonizing unfriendly foreign powers. In other words, it operates as a military should. Because it is a military.

>>49879415

I get why internal affairs, MP and intelligence are Red fields, same as I do with ship piloting and navigation. I just don't see it for the law, especially when I imagine JAG officers probably also have to study a lot of alien law considering how often Starfleet gets involved in legal snafus during their exploratory and diplomatic duties. Its actually kind of surprising that every ship in the fleet doesn't have a JAG on board to defend their crewmates when they inevitably get pulled into alien tribunals. The Captain or resident Vulcan always gets stuck doing it.

>>49879435

Betazoids probably also just have a naturally peaceful-bordering-on-pacifist nature. You won't get very far as a species if you can read everyone's mind and can't stop yourself from starting a war over what you hear. Fortunate that no spacefaring race which was overtly hostile ever came knocking at their door. Then again, the odds of a spacefaring race coming across any one given planet to prey upon isn't exactly high.

>>49879251
See, the thing is, Federation member planets rely on the Federation to do pretty much everything. When the Fleet is at full capacity and no wars are on, everything is perfect. When the fleet is stretched to the breaking point, the Federation breaks down because almost all of the member planets are, at the end of the day, feckless and useless to the actual operation of the Federation. In fact, most member planets apparently have a high chance of secession if the Federation suffers a major disaster, simply because they expect to be handed resources and not return many.

>>49879524
JAG often involves high level officer decisions, and your highest ranking officers are from the Command division, which is bizarre, since you'd expect a Science division captain on something like an Oberth or a Nebula.

>>49879861

In DS9 we see an Yellowshirt Admiral who's either the head or one of the top guys in Starfleet Operations.

>>49880061
According to the writers, that was a costuming mistake, IIRC.

>>49880084
And yet, it is canon now, so fuck the writers. Operations Admirals are awesome. Science Admirals would be sweet too (and we know it can happen, since McCoy canonically becomes an admiral and he was in Science as a medical officer).

I always thought it was weird that there weren't uniforms for more specialised professions. Like, lets say you're with the diplomatic core or legal department. Odds are you got your qualifications outside of Starfleet or specialised from a very early stage. And yet you go around wearing yellow, blue or red within the same rank system. Whats to stop somebody from mistaking a judge/diplomat who holds the rank of commander for an actual command officer to turn to in an emergency.

Wouldn't it make sense to give them a separate branch with a separate colour. Green, for instance. Then you know, off the bat, that this person has authority, but only in specific situations pertaining to their field.

>>49880201
I assumed that in-universe Admirals can dress however they wanted, which is why Admirals have such varied uniforms. Up until the Dominion War, that is, when all the uniforms became standardized and Admirals just got to wear a belt.

>>49880201
I'm not disagreeing, but merely relaying the statement.

>>49880215
Aside from Troi, most people go through the Academy and pick up the courses that provide them with a rudimentary grasp of skills outside of their specialization. Hell, Doctor Crusher had command level experience, serving as a CMO. And Troi eventually took continuing education to become command qualified. Also, the TMP movies did have multiple divisions (compare Scotty and Chekov's division colors, both would be goldshirts in TNG uniforms). If anything, there should be rank insignia for Doctors and the like.

>>49880241
The wardrobe designers for TNG couldn't find an admiral's uniform they liked until Nechayev's, which was the best of the lot anyway. Also, First Contact uniforms also got gold braid embroidered on the cuffs as well as the front zip for Admirals.

>>49873514
>>49875048
Saved!

>>49880315
Troi, was what, a Lt. Commander almost her entire time on TNG? With pretty much no command experience. The few times I remember her actually being put in charge of the ship I can count on one hand and just about each time she pussyfooted around being in charge and making the "tough" decisions.

Didn't we see Dr. Crusher as a Blue Captain in "All Good Things" or am I mis-remembering?

>>49880490
She was a captain of a medical ship, yes. Troi becoming a Lt. Commander was because for anyone else it would have been too easy. Geordi and Data are just too competent for it to be a convincing trial. Still didn't work for Troi, since someone other than Riker should have been doing the test and would have shut her ass down long before she guessed the answer.

>>49880527
Didn't Geordi end up making Lt. Commander anyway? I know Worf did, and he probably deserved it much sooner than when he got it in Generations. IIRC, Dr. Crusher was the whole time. Surprising that given the whole 'everyone's an officer' thing of TNG that there weren't more Lt. Commanders floating around, especially on the Enterprise D.

Now Harry Kim should have at least made Lt. well before Tom Paris lost it and got it back. Also Tuvok's promotion to Lt. Commander was surprisingly late given that Voyager lacked anyone above Lt. other than Ms. Coffee herself and provisionally ranked Tattoo boy.

>>49880614
Geordi is full commander by First Contact, and after Nemesis, would be Second Officer. Also note that Data's presence on the Enterprise crew really fucks with the promotion chances of literally anyone under him. Coupled with Riker's decision to not take his own command, and you've got a stagnant officer pool at the higher levels, and the middle and lower levels in constant turnover, just so they have the opportunity to advance.

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>>49880698
Geordi hasn't made Commander. He's still a Lt. Commander in both FC and Nemesis.

>>49880215
>Whats to stop somebody from mistaking a judge/diplomat who holds the rank of commander for an actual command officer to turn to in an emergency.

Perhaps Starfleet expects everybody with three pips on their collar to be capable of jumping in the big chair and assuming command of the situation, whether or not their primary field is diplomacy, jurisprudence, or flying a starship around?

How come the federation don't seem to have actual soldiers? They'd probably cut down in the loss of manpower if the the people they send planetside actually had proper training and equipment instead of a pajamas and a tazer on steroids?

TV budget?

>>49880746
>TFW talk about being stuck in middle management hell.
But for being Chief Engineer for the flagship of starfleet I think he was totally ok with it. I think the problem is once you really find your niche it is almost impossible to get rid of you if you don't want to go.

>>49880940
We see Federation Marines in DS9. Specifically the episodes "Nor the Battle of the Strong" and "The Siege of AR-558".

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>ywn have a dinner date with a vulcan qt
>ywn arrange an arm shipment with that qt
>ywn share a jail cell with her
>ywn teach her the art of the deal
Why even live?

>>49880940
>a tazer on steroids
A tazer that can completely vaporize large chunks of rock. Steroids indeed.

>>49881336
still love how quark gagged on his drink when he learned the vulcan wanted guns

>>49880746
Huh. I could have sworn he got to be a commander by Nemesis. Well, I know he becomes a CAPTAIN OF ENGINEERING later in the novels, since Scotty refused to let any engineer from the Enterprise serve on his ship without being a captain.

>>49878586
TNG was full-retard about 'everyone's an officer' until Gene's withered claws were wrench free in later seasons.

I have to headcanon that there were tons of crewmen/non-coms from the start, we just never see any of them referred to by rank or talked to because fuck enlisted men.

Gene's background in the Air Force is pretty obvious as an influence in this regard.

>>49881672
That headcanon has to include the idea that the senior staff were too lazy to learn the enlisted ranks, and just called everyone "Ensign." Which makes TNG even more hilarious.

>>49881751
Pretty much, yes.

have some random music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs

>>49882007
Don't plug your shit here.

>>49881751
I could see that.

"Ah yes, Chief Warrant Officer Briggs"
"Actually I'm a Petty Officer, sir."
"Right, right... and that's... better?"
"Lower, sir."
"Ah, I see. Well I was hoping to find... uh... Crewman Renn?"
"You mean Able Crewman Renn."
"Sure, why not"
"well you'll want to talk Shuttleman's Apprentice Gonzola and Junior Petty Officer..."
"Right! That's it! Everybody with a ridiculous title is now an Ensign!"
"sir that will cause huge confusion amongst the crew."
"oh what's the worst that can happen"

>The USS Cambridge was found adrift in Space, her crew butchered by a Holographic representation of Doge Giovanni Pesaro.
>The holodeck maintenance crew apparently had an argument over seniority, which caused the weekly memory wipe to be forgotten.

>>49882108
Speaking of rank, what ever happened to Commodores in the TNG era? They were common in TOS, even if they had a tendency towards personal tragedy.

>>49882252
I think, technically, Picard should have been a Commodore, or at least a Fleet Captain, as he was in charge of the flagship and took over control or was scheduled to take control of fleets multiple times, such as the Klingon civil war border policing action and the post Wolf359 Anti-borg task force. It's not really appropriate to have some random Captain doing that.

>>49882322
Isn't Commodore a temporary rank anyway? You're a Commodore if you're a captain in charge of more than one ship at a time, meaning if two ships are taking your orders then they'd refer to you as Commodore. After which you'd go back to Captain.

>>49882252
Probably folded into the catch all "Admiral" rank for simplicity. It's not like there's much call for Starfleet to travel in battlegroups and fleets.

>>49882322
Commodore would be a better option, but I guarantee Picard would never take it, and Fleet Command would want him to take a full Admiral position to spread his experience over an entire sector.

>>49882352
Fleet Captain is just Star Trek's alternate name for Commodore it seems. Despite the latter being used anyway.

>>49879567

Betazoid exertion of power is via coercion. Violence isn't really their thing, which makes sense when you get AGONIZING PAIN RAYS BEAMED STRAIGHT THE FUCK AT YOU when you're a telepath in proximity to a sapient getting their ass-analogue harmed. Instead, you use that encyclopedic knowledge of whatever your opponent is thinking to convince them that working together or fucking off to elsewhere is beneficial for all involved.

Incidentally, Betazoid serial killers -- the few aberrants that actually LIKE the referred feelings of pain and suffering -- are fucking terrifying.

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>>49882398
>It's not like there's much call for Starfleet to travel in battlegroups and fleets.
But it seems there is one anon that thinks that traveling in small battlegroups is superior to pic related. IMHO whoever thinks that is kind of dumb.

>>49883122
Well, I'm not going to call you dumb, but as *an* anon who thinks Starfleet should travel in Battlegroups, I think the Prometheus is an ineffective replacement for a small fleet of ships. I dislike the idea of Starfleet sending a single ship into the teeth of the enemy as their only defense posture, unless they're facing the Dominion or the Borg.

I also think the Prometheus class is a dumb ship in general. Multi Vector whatever is stupid, and is proof that the fleet yards needs a damn good slapping, if they build that over tough ships in the vein of the Defiant and the Patrol Escort series.

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>>49883190
But I get a feeling that the higher ups in Star Fleet hate the idea of using resources to make craft that are strictly for combat. It totally flies in the face of the supposed ideals of Star Fleet. The Prometheus gets around this because it has more than enough ability to do all the exploring/science you could ever want plus kick enough ass to make a Klingon blush.

So a Prometheus is six warp cores, three impulse engines, three sets of weapons and deflectors, three sets of shields.

Why didn't you just build three Defiants?

>>49883365
>build 3 Defiants
>design them so they stack and travel as one ship

>>49883365
>Why didn't you just build three Defiants?
But it's more like two gun boats and a science vessel actually. So, if it was in a battlegroup you would have to have the gunboats babysit the science vessel. So if something happened elsewhere that needed the gunboats help what the fuck are they going to do? Leave the science vessel to fend for itself? Bring it along if they can into a fire fight where it's going to be meat? What's your answer, anon?

>>49883488
Considering that aside from the Oberth, the average Federation science vessel qualifies as a heavy destroyer or light cruiser, gee anon, I think I'll send it into the fray too. Or hold it back to cover the escape of any civilian vessels.

>>49883467
>Cube spotted in sector 7-J!
>Dispatch a rack of Defiants
>Sir, it's begun assimilating the Aldebaran defense fleet.
>...make that two racks.

Sounds fantastic. Throw in photonic crewmen and you have top tier utopia insurance. Hooray for post-scarcity!

>>49882322
>Picard should have been a Commodore
He was rejected for not being funky enough and an inability to grow hair.

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Lets think about this from a different angle:

You're an admiral or equivalent deciding what to assign to a sector, and for some inexplicable reason you have to assign multiple small ships to some tasks rather than the usual approach of throw the Enterprise or equivalent at everything interesting.

What ships should their small fleet be composed of ideally?

And what tasks are they dealing with as a group that wouldn't normally be solved just by a single ship or reasonable capability outside of combat?

I guess you could also assume that if GMing this, what would be an appropriate one-ship-per-player set up and what do they do?

>>49883600
The Prometheus is a cutting edge design that barely a dozen people know about during the height of the Dominion War. It's a logistical nightmare in terms of warp core maintenance, and aside from the Defiant, almost all of Starfleet's vessels are designed to be generalists anyway. Quite frankly, I'm not sure why it gets so much love aside from the pain in the ass Multi-Vector mode, which isn't the silver bullet it's treated as.

>>49883670
It's cool? Sometimes shit in fiction can justify be cool.

>>49883600
I'll take the space dildos with large warp nacelticles and fuck everyone I meet. Figuratively and Literally.

>>49883600
When they have to do multiple things in multiple places at once, and they don't need multiple ships to do any of those things. If they run into trouble they are close enough to each other that they reinforce each other quickly. Any one of those tasks would be too small for a big/hero ship (though we do see the Enterprise do some pretty trivial stuff sometimes) but too big for a bunch of shuttles or runabouts (like a big ship acting as a sort of carrier), and they still need to be done.

>>49883600
>TFW a whole fleet of small vessels gee I wonder what they be good for.
Blockage runner counters and border patrol, considering the mofos that are at the UFP borders a particle net of some type would be nice too.

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>>49883600
Sounds like just the kind of reason to pull these girls and their ilk out of mothballs!

>>49871476
Like one of these.

One ship can carry sci/med shit, one ship can have cargo bays for general purpose use, and one ship (probably the Akula) is just there to be *mean.* You can have the sci/med ship respond to disasters and stuff, have the ship with open storage bays do whatever needs to be done, and the other one is on-hand to run down minor threats. When something big comes up, or when nothing at all is coming up, they just fly around in Voltron Formation, a little squad of little ships ready to rock out like it's 2280.

Also, did anyone have any insights into my question re: Starfleet Command II-style drones?

>Starfleet Command and Empires at War has photon torpedoes and all the usual goodies, but it also has missiles - called drones in the parlance. They're a lot slower than photon torpedoes, but they track unerringly and home in. They CAN be run out of fuel, or held at bay with a tractor beam, shot down with phasers (and indeed, there's a phaser type, the PhG, which is pretty much purpose-built for doing just that,) and the like, but if you don't do one of those things, they ARE going to wreck your shit.
>How would you model that in Deciphertrek? A missile barrage becomes its own 'ship' and closes on the target, and impacts the target on the round it closes to point-blank range?

>>49883670
I bet the Prom was more resource taxing to build than all the ships it destroyed in that episode. But then again, those ships didn't really stand a chance.

>>49881672
...Starfleet has always had enlisted men in enlisted ranks. The focus is only on the officers as the highly trained decision makers. It's only the casual watchers and non-watching commenters that think it's all officers.

>>49885171
Gene actually made it a thing in TNG that there were no enlisted, because muh equality. That of course ended after he left, because even the TNG writers knew that was retarded.

>>49885824
It would be totally possible to operate a Galaxy-class starship without enlisted personnel.

It just means that you're either deploying Exocomps and other robotic drones in record numbers, or you have four-year Academy grads turning wrenches and cleaning toilets.

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Which female character would you like to see wear the miniskirt uniform with pride?

>>49885992
Ezri Dax.

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>>49885992
Admiral Alynna Necheyv.

She's Russian. I have it on good authority that Russians suffer a chronic genetic lack of fucks to give, and she ran her supply dry sometime back in 2330.

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>>49886004
Nah, they sent the right Dax

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>>49886445
Jadzia's a hot, playful woman.
Ezri is a young QT3.1415.

There's room for both of them in miniskirt uniforms.

Now, if we were gonna have true equality, then they should have had Bashir ALSO in a miniskirt.

>>49886465
>Bashir in a miniskirt
Strongly agree, 100%, all of my yes.

>>49886735
Alexander Siddig doesn't seem like he had the legs for it, honestly. Michael Dorn might though.

>>49886744
"A WARRIOR'S SKIRT!"

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>>49886465
I would say Patrick Stewart is fit enough to not look half bad in a miniskirt.

>>49885992
I was really upset to learn that Yeoman Rand's skull isn't shaped like that.

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>>49886890
When a warrior wears it, it's called a kilt, laddie. Qapla!

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>>49887077
I know right long skulls are sexy.

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>>49887091
>just rewatched the Lorelei Signal
>hard-assed security redskirts phasering down those siren women with no remorse and zero casulaties on their side, Uhura out front and giving the order to fire
>"Assemble all the female security officers. I'm taking command of this ship."

Not all warriors turn them into kilts, my friend.

Hell yeah. I wish I'd had access to TAS when I was a kid.

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>>49888191
Adding another image because Best Uhura Episode in the entire series.

>>49882252
>>49882322
>>49882352
>>49882398
Commodore is a silly rank, it sounds like Commode

>>49883513
Photonic Crewmen? Holodeck people managing the ship? Given how much damage bleeds through Startrek shields (Seriously, why are people on the bridge dying to exploding computers if the shields are still at 60%?) I really can't imagine that being a good idea. If your repair crewmen flicker out of existence at crucial moments.

>>49883488
Wouldn't the same issue arise with the Prometheus? What does the "Saucer" section do in a fight?

>>49881672
Isn't O'Brien an enlisted? He was around from season one. Or is he the starfleet equivalent of a warrant officer?

>>49889409
He's called an Enlisted in DS9 but that may be a retcon.

>>49889409
O'Brien fluctuates between Ensign and Lieutenant for pretty much all of TNG.

>>49889409
>>49889591
So what was the deal with calling him Chief all the time? Was it just because some asshat writers or producer couldn't decide what the fuck rank he was half the time? If so someone needed to smashed over the head with a datapad.

>>49889669
Because he was associated with transporters and the job title of "Transporter Chief."

Eventually, I guess, the DS9 writers decided to retcon that to being Chief of Operations.

>>49883190
Sems silly to have the pieces all the same size. Why not the equivalent of an aircraft carrier, a ship that can release a bunch of small, expendable but well-armed drones or shuttles?

>>49889669
His official duty in TNG was Transporter Chief. Because Roddenberry believed that Starfleet should be officers only, he was an Ensign in his first appearances while the character was unnamed and served as conn officer, then (I think) a Lieutenant JG and ensign in his later appearances.

>>49889685
No, O'Brien applied to be Chief of Operations at DS9

>>49889694
That's one of the uses of the Akira actually. It has a shuttlebay that runs through the entire saucer so it has a large complement of shuttles and fighters.

>>49889591
He starts as an Ensign in the pilot as a generic redshirt, gets the wee black pip for Junior Lieutenant I think about season 2, gets full Lieutenant pips before DS9 then in DS9 is retconned into Chief Petty Officer because fuck it, he's practically always been 'Chief' so why not.

Watching the show in order you can see the writers slowly give the character gradually more and more lines in each appearance and increasing amounts of appearances until he's basically a main character then is given a full time role.

>>49889591
>>49889669
>>49889685
In Family (The episode after Wolf 359) they firmly decided he was a Senior Chief Petty officer. (Between CPO and Master Chief) but still didn't really settle on rank pips, leaving him with two for a while, then bringing him back down to a black/hollow pip.

>>49885824
I don't get it, why maintain the division between enlisted and officer? Why not require everyone to enlist first, then take increasingly more training as they progress through the ranks?

>>49890147
The Academy is hard as fuck to get into and then complete. The idea is to get the best of the best. Enlisted crew can join whenever they want, do some competency training and then serve in a position that suits their pre existing skills.

>>49890147
Because Starfleet already has enough of a problem with the Peter Principle as it is. If everyone had to begin as an enlisted crewman, then not only would the best leaders never rise to the top because they probably don't make the best NCO's, but the best NCO's would be promoted all the way past their area of expertise until they're no longer using any of the specialized skills that made them stand out. O'Brien would be a terrible captain, just as Kirk or Picard would make terrible transporter room grunts.

>>49889694

Because when I think starfleet, I think people who want ships that are both well armed and expendable.

>>49890755

O'Brien wouldn't be a terrible Captain, he's declared an expert on starship combat at Worf's trial and notes he was next in line for command on that mission if Worf got injured

>>49890799
His technical expertise isn't the problem; his interpersonal skills are. He's got a churlish streak. And just like Harry Kim, he doesn't know how to delegate work to others, so he micromanages. He's someone you want getting actual work done, not coordinating the work done by others.

This is the most comprehensive list of rank insignia I can find than makes sense. So you could argue that O'Brien was a Warrant Officer onboard the Enterprise and then transferred into a specialist CPO rank when he joined the crew on DS9

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>>49890906
It helps if I remember the image

>>49890763
Ships get damaged and destroyed sometimes. It happens. They come under enemy fire, or they fly into anomalies, or the holodeck becomes self-aware again and hijacks the warp core. Wherever possible, you want to mitigate that risk. You send out something expendable like a probe, drone, or shuttle. In battle, these things can cover you as well as attack from multiple vectors at once. It's a hell of a lot more humane than risking the whole ship and all her crew every time.

The Prometheus was a half-baked idea because the three pieces were about equal in size and importance, and she really needed all three of them. Each piece has about a third of the crew and the ship's resources. If you lose the middle piece, the top piece with no warp nacelles is kind of fucked, even if the bottom piece is intact.

>>49890833
Every season then would have a 'Captain O'Brien's crew must suffer' episode, as he takes on his annual streak of horrible luck and inflicts it on everyone else

>>49891036
If two defiants and a nova go off on a mission, come under fire and come home with a defiant shot up, you have one defiant in the yard and two other ships ready for reassignment.

If Prometheus goes on a mission, and one section gets shot up, you've got a whole Prometheus in the yard, because they probably can't operate particularly long separated. That'd be idiotic.

>>49891093
"Captain O'Brien, the crew continually reports that the arboretum is haunted with some type of spectre, who complains about how "Miles never lets her do anything with her degrees." We're not sure what this means, but Lieutenant Commanders Stanz and Spengler have worked out a way to get rid of it."

>>49873079
"tell me about your genitals"

>>49891126
The captain gives his officers a wry smile and then turns away. He pours himself a glass of Jameson and takes a sip. He stares out the window into empty space.
"It's simple. If you want her to leave you just put out a bowl of Irish stew. She'll be gone before you know it."

>>49891108
That's what I'm saying. The Prometheus doesn't have good fracture dynamics. If something goes wrong, you want three ships or maybe one ship and a bunch of drones, but not three interdependent mini-ships.

>>49873939
>>49891154
Is that a thing? Context?

>>49891210
some gender neutral race in TNG asks Number one about his number one.

>>49891210
>>Is that a thing? Context?
TNG had an episode where Riker was an interesex chick magnet.

>>49891036

You can say that about any Saucer Section though. The only difference is Prometheus Saucer is less defenseless. Plus since they're roughly equal size I'm sure either warp capable section can tow the Saucer if they can't hook back up.

Fighters are not in the Starfleet mindset. The only reason they used them in the Dominion War was they'd proven highly effective in the Maquis campaigns, but in general Starfleet has no use for a ship with a highly limited operational range and no purpose outside combat. Even the defiant had a full sensor suite and got sent on scientific missions. The closest thing Starfleet will ever make regular use of that are anything like fighters are Runabouts and maybe the Delta Flyer if that thing becomes a standard issue.

>>49891229
>>49891231
Oh yeah. The one where they were trying to preach about free gender expression or something, but it ended up being about a space babe fighting for her sacred right to get fucked by Riker.

Do people quote that a lot on /stg/? I've never seen it.

>>49891258
i think it's more a thing from the star wars threads on /tv/

>>49891253
Weapons in general are "not in the Starfleet mindset," but Starfleet vessels are armed anyway, carrying around heavy phaser banks and stockpiles of torpedoes that are good only for fighting, because the rest of the universe doesn't play by their rules. Fighters, or at least shuttles and probles that can be converted quickly into fighters, would be the same deal.

>>49891210
>>49891231
Don't forget Kirk kicking that alien in his Knee-balls.

>>49891289

Do you know why Starfleet uses phasers? Because phasers, unlike disruptor, can be manipulated in a dozen different ways at a hundred different settings, intensities and beam shapes. Starfleet uses phasers because phasers are as much if not more Tools than they are weapons. Kira goes on at length about how the phaser rifle is a crap weapon because it's got so many bells and whistles almost anything can break it in the field.

They may have their torpedoes as necessary evil, but I don't imagine there is any argument about tactical practicality that could convince Starfleet that they need fighters when they won't even pit a gun on one of their ships unless it can do ten other things besides shoot people.

>>49891395
Yeah, if only there was some other use for a smaller craft that docks inside the main craft when not in use. It's not like Starfleet ships all have those. And if space is such a priority and they won't let their ships bear any dead weight that won't be likely to prove itself useful, why do they carry children?

>>49891454
A fighter will never be as versatile as a runabout. And the crew's families are only present on ships that go long periods of time without much contact with the inner Fed planets. They are there to keep the crew's morale up in the face of isolation. You don't bring kids onboard, say, an Akira.

>>49891454

Its not about wasted space and resources, its about antimilitarism. Shuttles good, fighters bad. Its not complicated.

>>49891534
By that reasoning, why arm ships at all?

inb4 "self-defense," because you could use the same justification for fighters.

>>49891395
Torpedoes can do 10 different things too! But wait, making a tougher, more durable, shuttle would allow them to do more with it, especially if you equip it with your multi-use phasers and your even more multi-use shields and multi-use torpedos! Combadge now and we will even throw in our totally not sentient multi-use robots to keep them in working order!


We are not liable for any Federation legislation concerning sentience of robots, we are not liable for any wars started due to multi-use shuttles causing wars do to perceived sabre-rattling. No refunds.

>>49891584
the difference is that fighters are small enough that if you're putting guns on it, odds are it can't do any nongun things.

Whereas a full-on starship has room for guns AND other stuff.

>>49891584

There isn't much a fighter can do that a runabout can't also do. Starfleet already has armed shuttles, there isn't really much call for something much more single purpose.

>>49891605
[citation needed]
Shuttles are usually depicted as armed. They're essentially already fighters with room for passengers. You'd just have to alter the balance a little bit, take out some of the storage and even the warp drive in order to have a small craft that can harass enemies and still carry crew to and from a planet when there's yet another anomaly interfering with transporters.

On a semi-related note, remember that TOS episode where Spock and McCoy were trying to reduce the weight of a crippled shuttle by like 200kg so it could reach escape velocity, and Spock's amazing logic led him right to the plan of leaving some redshirts behind, when the shuttle was still full of chairs and other useless furniture?

>>49891636
Isn't a runabout bigger than a Peregrine or base Maquis fighter (Feddie fighters from the original Cardassian War) And standard armed shuttles are ...somewhat lackluster hence why they don't generally scramble them for use as fighters.

I don't think anything less slick than a Type 9 or less powerful than a Runabout could really fit into the role, hence the Peregrine

Also speaking of runabouts don't they have envirosuits? Why beam air into the circuit chamber in One Little Ship instead of just using that (Or beaming air in for pressure and using a breathmask to go easy on the props department)

>>49891705
>On a semi-related note, remember that TOS episode where Spock and McCoy were trying to reduce the weight of a crippled shuttle by like 200kg so it could reach escape velocity, and Spock's amazing logic led him right to the plan of leaving some redshirts behind, when the shuttle was still full of chairs and other useless furniture?
That was weird, I thought "Oh maybe the chairs have the localized inertial compensation required for people not in pressure suits to ride a ship to escape velocity" but then when they finally do take off people are standing up so that theory went to shit.

>>49891705
Vulcans are dicks, especially when it comes to people who don't have a genius level intellect. Why do you think the Romulans, Mintakans, Rigellians and Debrunes all decided to get the fuck out of dodge?

>>49891253
>Fighters are not in the Starfleet mindset.

They break them out when shit gets real.
You want to know when you done fucked up and kicked the hornet's nest? The Peregrines start showing up: no science, no living quarters, no comforts, barely even a midflight snack; just engines, guns, shields and one PISSED THE FUCK OFF Starfleet combat pilot.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Ark_Royal-class_Fleet_Carrier

When these show up, shit's getting waaay too real. (I really wish Usualsuspex would make an Ortho of this beast.)

>>49891258
Didn't that episode end atrociously, with a terrible "you don't get to choose your gender now shut up and accept your pidgeonhole" message?

>>49891829
I always found it confusing how a race that was entirely devoted to logic and purging emotion got along better with humanity than Romulans or Klingons. Is there a practical reason the Vulcan site as to why they haven't just joined the Borg for the sake of progress?

>>49891833
No, it ended with the girl getting brainwashed back into being nongender despite Riker and Worf's attempt to break her out. No. 1 then realizes that it would not be worth it to try and take her with them to reverse the brainwashing, then does the starship equivalent of storming off in disgust.

>>49891931
Because the Vulcans are awful.

>>49891833
The message was more "Stop demanding people be things they are not" and instead of a happy ending where the Federation's morals are successfully forced on the backwards populace, the backwards populace wins and the Enterprise has to follow its much touted "then we'll just leave your dumb asses be" policy. How the episode ended was not the moral, how the episode ended was intentionally horrible. The bad guys got to keep their backwards ways and the Federation has to sit back and hope they collapse before they hurt too many more people.

>>49891931
Romulans don't get along with anyone who doesn't bend the knee first. Klingons are the equivalent of running into that 30 year old guy at the mall who still wears cargo shorts and does skateboarding. They remind us of a stupid and embarrassing time in our history, even when they are not trying to fuck with us.

>>49890257
Can enlisted members later apply to the Academy and become an officer?

>>49892003
Yes

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>>49891833
Fuckdamnit, forgot the pic.

>>49891931
"Logic is the beginning of Wisdom. It is not the end."

>>49891949
>>49891980
Right, hence the lesson was awfully anti-transgender. I guess that's the best you can expect from late '80s/early '90s TV, Roddenberry or not.

>>49892003
Almost certainly, and I'd expect they'd be able to get fast-tracked if they were an experienced NCO with years under their belt and gray in their hair, both through the Academy and probably coming out as like, a Lt. J.G., Lt. or possibly Lt. Commander, if they were senior enough like O'Brien.

>>49892003
Yes. >>49885992 ended up doing this. And I think Officer Training is a little more lenient for them than for completely green cadets, as long as your commanding officer recommends you for it.

>>49892003
Yes. They can also become an officer by field commision. Though generally you have to be a high ranking petty officer or a warrant officer first.

>>49892035
>awfully anti-transgender

If you had actually watched the episode, you may have noticed that, allegorically, the nongender planet's society was meant to represent our current gender binary society in that it say gender nonconformity as a problem to be fixed.

>>49892035
>Right, hence the lesson was awfully anti-transgender. I guess that's the best you can expect from late '80s/early '90s TV, Roddenberry or not.

Wait...anti-transgender? By having it be seen as horrible when someone is forced into gender roles they don't want? Seems rather pro-transgender. Just one with a very sad ending.

>>49892035
The message was not anti-transgender. The anti-gender people were NOT the good guys and what they did to that person was shown in a horrifying light. They brainwashed her. And they had to brainwash her to force their ways. Combine that with their horribly stated attitude of "They see genders as primitive, and compare other species to worms" and they are literally one more form of gay killing space nazis.

No, the message was not anti-trans. The message was very pro-trans, pro-straight, pro-gay, pro-human in general, but the creatures that wish the destruction of human genitals won.

>>49892096
*in that it sees

>>49892035
btfo

>>49892096
But that's not wrong. 600 different pronoun and intersex "gender" shenanigans is waste of everyone's time. Take your anti depressants and go on with your life.

>>49892162
Also not the episode's message.

The 600 different pronouns and intersex gender labels are just as wrong and for the same reasons, demanding that you fit into a definition based on a chart of stereotypes and calling it inclusive that when a new individual mindset is found that they need their own category too. The real message of the episode, as with all episodes, is 'leave people be'

Stop trying to put people in boxes at all. There is the physical reality of your gender, and then your preference is unique to you since that's a matter of personal taste and will never, ever fit into a box.

...nevermind the fact that on our world, in present time, doctors literally mutilate intersex infants for not conforming to their ideas, and if you're born with so much as a divot under your balls they cut your balls off and try to say you're supposed to be a girl... our 600 gender identities is a smoke screen for that nonsense.

>>49892003

Its implied yes in Drumhead, the nco medical tech says he considered doing it someday since he rushed into enlistment because he was desperate to get into space

>>49892029
>>49892035
>>49892040
>>49892079
>>49892358
Oh, then I'm totally fine with it. In today's military it seems like mostly bullshit, and I'm against how university is treated today as well (like something that's a prerequisite, even though it doesn't always teach people much or effectively, there's no quality control or high bar for entry, and it rapes everyone into debt).

>>49892603
>In today's military it seems like mostly bullshit

You know that OCS is a thing in today's military, right?

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>>49892358
Was that the one who ended up being chased out of the fleet because it turned out his grandfather was Vulcan rather than Romulan?

>>49893023
Other way around, He lied and said it was vulcan, it turned out to be romulan. It actually didn't matter what his biological background was as a federation citizen and starfleet candidate, but for the sake of politics the investigator/prosecutor wasn't satisfied with the already caught terrorist working alone, so stayed on the ship holding sham public trials for people to shame them and stroke her ego.

>>49893061
So Starfleet does discriminate on race.

>>49893156
It was more the fact that he lied on his entry form.

>>49893174
And he was being hounded by a witch hunter.

>>49893194
And what happened to the kid when she left?

>>49893156
Read that again. Starfleet does not. That one whack job did but only because of the situation, which is still very wrong regardless of her reasons, but her reasons were also very wrong.

The poor kid was on the best ship to help him get over his misplaced shame for his heritage and in comes this whack job with an ego to stroke looking for targets.

deleted and reposted because I replied to the wrong post, whoops.

>>49893174
Couldn't he just claim he didn't know?

Only vaguely remember this episode - which was it?

>>49893333
The Drumhead. A young man lies on his application form saying his grandfather was Vulcan, not Romulan. I doubt you could give a convincing lie that you didn't know the race of your grandfather. It's not like he was from the ghetto or a reservation.

>>49893333
But he did know. And lying on a form about your species is a no-no mostly for medical reasons, which could put you in a bad light when medical is your job. Actual punishment likely a slap on the wrist if anything, might simply correct his personnel file and forget about it.

...oh except whacky mcwhackjob was in town looking for "Dem Ramalam Spiez!" to further her career and anything with even a slight angle on it's ears was going under the bus at warp 9.

>>49893174
And the reason he lied is because he was worried about discrimination.

>>49893363
And why would it matter?

If he was trying to claim that granddad was a Klingon that would be different. There might be medical concerns and dietary requirements or some shit to worry about.

But the kids dad was a Romulan. They are only a handful of generations removed from Vulcans.

It's like saying your grandfather was Ukrainian instead of Bosnian at a job interview.

Who honestly gives a shit. Tolerance from apathy rather than love is still tolerance.

Why do Romulans generally have ridges, but Vulcans don't? Also, are Romulans 3x as strong as humans like Vulcans are?

>>49893421
Keep in mind the political situation with the Romulans of that time. Saying your grandfather is Romulan is like saying your family comes from Russia during the height of the Cold War. You're bound to get dirty looks at the very least. The Romulans pull all kinds of dirty tricks and sending in some kind of sleeper agent via grandson isn't out of the question for them.

Not everyone is like that, just the higher ups as they have to look at the big picture. Picard didn't care, but Norah Satie did because she was there to investigate a, seemingly, unrelated matter that eventually got out of hand.

>>49893421
And thats just it. He had no reason to lie. His career doesn't end because he's been framed by former-admiral crazyshit. It ends because he lied on an official document.

And yes, he lied because he was worried about discrimination. But as you said, he had no reason to be. If Worf, a full on, 1 generation removed fro the great cold war Klingons, can fit in on a Starfleet Vessel then a quarter-Romulan has nothing to worry about.

>>49893469
We had this about 6 or 7 threads ago.

There was no definitive answer.

There was speculation genetic modification to help them survive on a new world that coincidently gave them reinforced looking skulls but stunted their telepathic abilities.

There was also speculation that Remens were also a branch of the Vulcanoid tree.

>>49893514
I thought they mingled with Klingons because they both have territory in the Beta Quadrant.

>>49893481
>>49893478
So Starfleet operates on the One Drop rule unless its to get token representatives of people they are trying to cozy up to.

>>49893544
Could be a good explanation.

Nobody could find a definitive reason in official trek lore.

>>49893547
Starfleet Command isn't as nice as the captains that serve it. Look at Measure of a Man, they refused to let Data resign his commission and said he was the property of Starfleet. They don't care about Worf because the tensions with the Klingon Empire are mostly gone, and it's the Romulans they have to worry about.

>>49893569
It could also be explained by their blood feud with each other. Romulans and Klingons hate each other before all else, so having mixed blood between each other could make that hatred all the worse.

>>49893469
as >>49893514 says, there was no single answer. But we came up with a few options.

1: It's a result of genetic modification. The Romulans removed the parts of their genetic code responsible for psychic ability, which also removed their need for the pon-farr ritual. Conversely, the pro-psychic elements of their society were banished to Remus and became extremo-philes.

2: It's a part of their caste system. Sort of like a tattoo that patricians and Citizens of Romulus receive as an identifier of superiority. The general civilian population, outside of those native Romulus and those accepted into the military don't have the brow ridge, as a sign of inferiority(hence Nero ran a mining ship). Then the Remans are just straight up slaves. It sort of riffs off the Roman empire where Italy was divided into three socioeconomic groups. Romans(everyone living in the city of Rome or having served the military), Latins(living in the countryside, often as farmers with fewer rights than the Romans) and Italians(essentially treated as a slave cast).

3: the Remans are non-Vulcanoids, native to Remus or Romulus, that the early Vulcan settlers fucked like crazy until turning on them.

4: its a random evolutionary trait exacerbated by the Romulan ecosystem.

>>49893595
That is brilliant.

Turns out Starfleeti is at least as xenophobic as Japan if they don't like your type around here.

And despite letting Data going through the academy they stop treating him like a real boy the moment they see an advantage in dismembering him for science.

Why is it the more you look at the Trek universe the more shit Starfleet looks?

>>49893695
I like to think of Starfleet as an organization as any other, with bad and good apples. Starship captains get to go on their merry way exploring the galaxy while the admirals have to make the hard, gritty choices that often leave a stain on the uniform.

Star Trek is a hopeful vision of the future, but a dark spot now and then to make it a bit more believable never hurt. It makes for great episodes rather than everybody getting along because conflict is scary.

>>49893744
There is a bit of a blemish and then there is deciding the pale kid you let through your own educational institution isn't really a person and then giving some dude license to strap him down to a table to be carved up. For science.

>>49894032
There's a big difference between a pale kid and an android. One is human, or at least a flesh and blood being, the other is a collection of neural pathways and circuitry. Now don't get me wrong, I believe Data is a person as people are essentially complex machines made of blood, muscle and bone powered by electrical impulses, but Commander Riker's explanation as to why Data is just a machine is very compelling.

He's unique and nobody knew what to do with him. Starfleet said he's a thing, Picard and JAG disagreed.

>>49894032
>>49894091
Not to mention there were serious potential benefits involved if they could manage to replicate Data.

>>49894091
And Starfleet also acknowledged he was a person by letting him go through the academy.

Then it seemed his personhood became inconvenient when weighted against the prospect of having a slave race.

A dream they apparently never gave up on when we saw what happened to The Doctors siblings.

>>49894148
You can't enslave something that isn't sentient, which was their reasoning. Starfleet and the Federation are enlightened, but things can still take time. The Greeks were enlightened but still only let certain people own land and vote, same way it went throughout history. Beings like Data and The Doctor are incredibly advanced, and in Data's case hasn't been duplicated properly by anyone other than his creator. These are strange, and frightening, things that you really have to think about. You're not just fathering a child, helping it grow and instilling your beliefs in it, you're making an entire new species. Under the letter of the law they don't have right. Yet.

>>49894190
Exactly. My point exactly. Data was a something new that they had provisionally given rights to and the moment it became inconvenient to do so they decided to have him forcibly dissected.

And despite his years of service still had to plead for his life.

In the same way that killing your own clone is still murder unless it's a starfleet officer that does it.

>>49894190
>>49894270

>In the same way that killing your own clone is still murder unless it's a starfleet officer that does it.
When did THAT part happen?

>>49894326
Riker beamed down to a planet of humans that reproduced by cloning but after generations of duplication were starting to break down.

He was drugged and genetic samples taken.

When he found out he beamed back down and vaporized all of the clones.

Some time later Odo arrests a man for trying to frame him for his own murder declaring that "Killing your own clone is still murder".

Therefor Riker committed murder and nobody batted an eyelid.

>>49894403
One created the clone and implanted enough of a mind to make him believable just to kill him, the other did not consent to this creation and no mind had been implanted.

>>49894462
so by that logic killing a newborn conceived from rape is perfectly fine as it has not yet developed anything that could be considered a mind and was not consented to be created.

>>49894509
>waiting for the rapebaby to be born before killing it

>>49894509
Exactly.

Your genes are your property and your reproductive rights - and right to deny reproduction - must be protected.

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What's /stg/'s favorite Bussard scoop?

Also, favorite nacelle design?

I have yet to find a modernization of the TNG scoop/nacelle that really resonates with me.

>>49894688
Refit Connie from the movie has the best nacelles of any Star Trek ship.

>>49894688
>favorite nacelle design
I know it's hella predictable, but probably the Sovereign.

>>49892096
>>49892106
Sorry. I was like, *eight* the last time I saw that episode, and I remembered it being very sour because the good guys DIDN'T win or deliver some kind of huge "reason you suck" speech, they just beamed up and warped away with their tails between their legs.

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>>49894688
Gotta go with the big ribbed dildo nacelles.

I don't think they work on many or perhaps any other design though.

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Is it just me or is one of the best things about starships watching them get destroyed?

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>>49894688
These.

Which means I'm basically agreeing with
>>49894724
too.

I like the TNG ones, Sovereign especially, but... I like the Miranda/Refit Constitution the most.

Excelsior gets a failing grade because they put the nacelles in-line with the saucer, which is a No No for Federation ships, because it blocks the ramscoops. Though, Excelsior doesn't have visible scoops on its nacelles, either... So maybe they just omitted them entirely; that would actually make plausible sense.

>>49895097
Battle damage looks cool.

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>>49895520
Makes them look more real because stuff has clearly happened to it.

Re Starfleet and Data, before the people who are eager to prove Starfleet is grimdark and racist as anyone else, let's not pretend their revoking of Data's rights was made in a vacuum. They were being manipulated by a douchey egghead scientist who was ready and willing to make any argument necessary to advance his research. This ass had the balls to say that he had the right to not have his research impeded by blind ignorance when he also admitted his research might destroy a completely unique and irreplaceable technology/lifeform. Starfleet would have never backed this nozzle unless he snowballed them to further his own ends, which is something scientists do all the time in Star Trek

. Let's not be so quick to jump on every flimsy pretext to declare the Secret Dystopia Revealed when it's far more likely just one asshole being an asshole and getting away with it.

>>49895670
I concur. Wholeheartedly.

At times the Federation does dumb stuff. But it's nearly always as a result of one persons ambition or external manipulation.

>>49895670
Don't forget, this happened not only to Data, but Data's daughter. The moment Starfleet found out he built a daughter, an Admiral manifested upon the ship with repo orders.

>>49896262
..... Yeah, that's right. Frankly, Data should have been raising a huge political stink to get the rules regarding sapient nonorganics CLARIFIED to the fucktards at SFC.

>>49891126
Where did the root of this meme actually begin? I never really read any trek-specific sites or watched any review series or anything.

>>49896663
In DS9 the writers threw at least one bad thing a season at Mile O'brien, the Chief of Operations aboard the titular station. One such instance was serving a twenty year prison sentence in only a few short hours via mind prison. He killed his cell mate and spent the rest of the time by himself.

He's also married to Keiko, which is punishment enough. He should have smashed that Cardassian woman up and down the jeffries tube.

>>49896725
...I am completely aware of O'Brien's suffering, and the rest of DS9.

I was asking about the 'Keiko is an asian hate ghost' meme, specifically.

>>49896838
Oh, I suppose because she's a really passive aggressive bitch. Can't say for certain.

>>49896838
>>49896853
Christ, being in a relationship with a cardassian would be even worse.

>>49896887
She'd be totally tsundere~ for you. Unless she takes the 'plan within a plan within a plan within a trap' mindset to heart. Can't be worse than Keiko "I only eat traditional Japanese food" O'brien.

>>49896853
I get that. I know a lot of people don't like Keiko. It's just the 'ghost' part of it that puzzles me a little. It seems like a pre-established meme, and I've been seeing it in these threads from time to time, so I thought it may have come from some joke from sfdebris or something (I know it's not from the Plinkett reviews of the TNG movies, because I was watching those before they were even cool), which I hadn't seen.

That's all. Just curious.

>>49896262
Different reasons though that time, not can they replicate Data but more Data having proved he can replicate himself, suddenly he's a species and not just a one-off construction. And that surprise surprise, android children are apparently less disposable than human children and maybe the flagship shouldn't be a place for them.

Really though the whole thing would have made far more sense if the Enterprise wasn't loaded up with kids in the first place. That was a get the kid off the inappropriate environment of a starship thinking would have had more solid backing.

>>49896663
Pretty sure the O'Brien getting tricked into marrying a Japanese hate ghost thing started here, but really, Keiko wasn't exactly portrayed in a forgiving light most of the time. Our very first encounter with her and she's throwing a right old freak out over their wedding. So we never really saw why they were together. And by the time they actually got around to fixing that, the Dominion war started and DS9 lost a lot of civilians from the inhabitants.

>>49896663
I started that meme a few years back, both here and on /co/. It was initially just part of a list of horrible things Data does to his friends.

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>>49896920
>cardassian intrigues
vs.
>sushi
let me flip a coin and then kill myself

cardsassians (sic) are discount romulans or vorta with less initiative, and that's all i will say on the matter.

also, i would rather eat mcdonald's than sushi. FUCK SUSHI.

>>49896936
Aha. Well, congratulations. It's a very distinctive meme, amusing even when you like Keiko (like I mostly do).

>>49896983
Cardassians seem like, if you were friends with one, they'd be really good friends, very sociable, with a lot of interest in being cultured and talkative and friendly.

It's just that with the way their culture has been the last 50-80 years or so, you'd always have to worry that they'd sell you out if some OO type suddenly showed up and leaned on them about something.

>>49897029

Cardasians Buddy worked out well for Bashir.

Also one time a Cardasians engineer had the hots for O'Brien. She was pretty hot, and wanted his human penis so bad she assured him she was quite.fertile in hilariously tsundere fashion. She'd have been a much better waifu than Keiko.

>>49897532
I thought she was actually hot. Pity O'Brien was married.

Even more's the pity that he and Keiko were both into traditional monogamous relationships. Can you say "Gleesome"?

I'll make a new thread, we've hit autosage.

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>>49897581

Abandon ship! All hands, Abandon Ship >>49897628

>>49896933
>gets possessed by the Bajoran equivalent of Satan
>No one notices

>>49898011
Pah-Wraiths haven't got shit on Japanese hate-ghosts. So really, did it possess her? Or did it get trapped inside WITH her?

>>49898101
Keiko was originally imprisoned with the Pah-Wraiths. They broke out to get away from her.