/STG/ Star Trek General

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Kanar all round!

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>>49848379
After the shitshow that was 24th-century /pol/, 100-proof maple syrup sounds good.

Damn there was some kind of memegenic virus in the other thread messing with my universal translator

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>>49848379
No thanks never could get a taste for the stuff.

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>>49848379
two words. root beer

I've never looked at any of /tg/s Star Trek threads. What's the usual subject matter? RPG mechanics? Lore? What?

>>49848575
its VILE!

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So why does the Federation consider technological accomplishment the pass mark for societal development?

Seems a bit ass backwards that the one qualification for them to be considered real people is the capability of FTL travel. It would be like 20th century UN deciding native Africans aren't people because no ability to launch satellites or some shit.

I mean you got the problem where the Nausicans are considered real people but Piccard just stood there and let a world and all it's people die because no FTL yet and considered it a good moral choice. Almost did it twice but then he made a decision to abandon his principals due to getting emotional when the person sending the distress call was a child. Presumably there were lots of children on the other planet to but he was perfectly content to do nothing whilst they died by the million.

There were aliens going back to Mark Twain era Americas and eating peoples brains. They were clearly sapient and at least claimed that they had tried to live off of artificial brains but couldn't. No problem with nuking them from orbit. Meanwhile the Crystalline Entity scoops up whole worlds and showed no evidence it was smart enough to count as sapient but Piccard throws a bitch fit that someone killed it.

Piccard fucks around with internal matters of another world that resulted in alien version of augments taking the entire government hostage with demands for reparations. Piccard beams out with a smirk on his face because the politicians are having to deal with their unfair treatment of super soldiers after the war and that they should be ashamed of their 2nd class treatment of them. All the while working for an institution that kicked a kid out of the fleet because he claimed his grandfather was a Vulcan rather than a Romulan and also bans people who have had genetic modifications from joining because they don't like their type around here.

>>49848592
its so cloying and sweet

>>49848592
It's so... CLOYING, and BUBBLY. And the worst part about it?

If you drink enough of it... You start to like it. Then you start to drink six glasses a day, and before you know it, you've ballooned up to the point you can't pass your Starfleet physical fitness requirements and you're explaining to Doctor Bashir why you need a medical bariatric intervention.

>>49848581
Lore and fixing plot holes mostly. We do also discuss TTRPG's, as well as ship design and strategy.

Last thread got a bit stuck in a cyclical argument but hey, that's 4chan for you.

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>>49848575
Prune Juice

Get me a Romulan Ale, extra Illegal!

>>49848623
How often do people try to defend the noblebright of Star Trek and how often does everybody talk about how the Federation is secretly fascist and inject grimdark into everything?

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>>49848635
The good stuff, none of this cheap imitation crap the Federation are peddling. Real Kali Fal should forcefully open the sinuses.

>>49848672
The last thread was a cylical confrontation between noblederp True Pacifists and noblebrights who realize that sometimes, you have to do something that would be Klingon Approved to make the cynical empires realize that no, you are not merely soft, squishy prey, but still rejected the cynical grimdark Section 31 bullshit.

>>49848672
It's not as common as you might expect. Most people around here know their shit so they can rebuke any "what if the Federation is actually the Imperium of man?" style crap that comes up.

>>49848692
>>49848711
It's funny when the two sides show themselves so rapidly.

>>49848672

judging by the last thread its almost a perfect 50/50 split. 350 posts of "The Federation needs to be more grimdark because their noblebright is fundamentally immoral," vs "The Federation's noblebright ideology is perfect and here's why you're a horrible human being if you don't agree," was pretty impressive.

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>>49848682
>replicated
>not real

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>>49848630
A WARRIORS drink

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>>49848595
Also would the Federation have considered Bjoran membership to join if there hadn't been a Cardassian occupation? Given that technological expertise is the pass mark for real people and the Bjorans never actually invented a warp drive shouldn't they be disqualified on those grounds?

The blind lady in the Kirk-era was pure human but she was also psychic. The crew reacted in a way that suggested it was rare but it was clearly a thing that existed in enough numbers that they had a specific badge to denote it. A sort of poorly drawn fuzzy felt thing rather than the more stylish pic related. How did that come about? Piccard Enterprise come across a colony of augmented humans that are psychic. Was the ambassador lady genetically modified? If thats the case it's a tad hypocritical that an augment is worthy of representing a founding member world but is banned from serving in the fleet because of their impure blood.

Archer Enterprise came to the aid of a species that would have been royally fucked if they hadn't turned up. But they had no warp drive and despite Dr Flox's moment of retardation their interactions were completely beneficial. Also they saved a per-renaissance city from being poisoned by off-world drilling industry with no ill effects.

Why was there even a Prime Directive? Surely the better thing to do would be to just pin point where the inhabited rock is on the map and let specialist deal with contact if the locals are friendly or stick a quarantine beacon up if they aren't.

Laddie, I got a hankerin' for somethin' thats... well that's... that's GREEN!

>>49848692
>>49848711
>>49848757
Was curious. /tg/ has a predisposition to making everything into 40k.

>>49848729
I will show you TRUE powah

>>49848801
Modern or vintage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQAG0JEb718

>>49848757
That generally doesn't happen. Often times we don't even focus much on the Federation. A few threads ago we had a big discussion about how the Klingon Empire evolved over the course of their onscreen appearance. There was a while where we talked incessantly about the Romulans and how their military can work with only HEUG ships. ANd even earlier than that there was that whole... Andorian thing.

My point is don't expect every thread to be an ideological battleground. This one? maybe. But not too many.

>>49848757
You're misunderstanding, I think.

The Federation's noblebright can be taken to excess and become brightderp nonsense, and some people are arguing that bits of the Federation that are pretty clearly failures of the Federation system were in fact smug, holier-than-thou success cases.


It's not about the Federation needing to be grimdark, it's saying that the Federation needs the resolve and means to enforce their intentions to be peaceful and nonaggressive upon those who are not peaceful and are aggressive.

No, that's not a contradiction. If a thousand Klingons sail into your system and declare they own it, you need to be able to fight them off. You HAVE to be able; and more importantly, WILLING, to back your sovereignty with force. That was the Federation's great failing in the Federation-Cardassian war, they lacked the WILLPOWER, the RESOLVE, to prosecute a war of defense to its proper conclusion, which ends with the other side's shipyards blown up, their war industries phasered, and you dictating the terms of the peace treaty.

And where you go full noblebright is in how you dictate those terms, and dictate them benevolently, because you didn't ask for this war, and you don't want to conquer them, or cause their people hardship and deprivation, but you WILL NOT tolerate them going a-warmongerin'.

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>>49848801
*burp*
not now scotty, you've got dilithium to reintegrate

>>49848822
That bar was always kind of confusing. Could anyone bartend? I know Data had a special thing for i like when they all lose their memories and he ends up being the bartender. But Riker was back their one time too.

>>49848829
>the Romulans and how their military can work with only HEUG ships

Explain or link to thread, please.

>>49848832
That sounds more or less reasonable. Most reasonable thing I've heard in terms of politics in recent threads.

Good ol' Trekkie and their heroism.

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>>49848822

I don't think he was asking for a drink man.

>>49848793
Apparently the Bajorans were warp capable before the occupation. They were rated Index 20 on the Weibrand Logarithmic Developmental scale (1 is most prewarp civs, 100 is the baseline for omnipotent races). So they would have been eligable for Federation membership.

>>49848672
>>49848692
Well, I still hold to my idea that everyone in Star Trek are assholes but of different kinds and to different degrees. And to say other wise is to be an ass hat. Every space society worth talking about have a space CIA and other such organizations. Does anyone know what the Klingon one is called? I guess with all the honor crap they keep vomiting out, they really try to keep that one under wraps I guess. I like that it that all the bastards in setting seem to be reaching for an ideal but a lot of time even in 'Utopia' fall far short of it. Everyone trying to live to ideals but have to deal with the reality that the real universe is very less than ideal. It's kind of fun to see that even in the future life can still be shit even if it does look cooler and better.

The Prime Directive should always be graduated when it comes to dealing with a non-warp species.

1. Don't contact them at all.
2. Failing that, don't remain in contact. Leave them alone.
3. If you fucked up, fix the problem but try to reset the status quo as best as possible.
4. If that doesn't work (ie, Starfleet is worshipped as gods), don't do more damage (ie, don't be imperialists)
5. Don't fucking leave them to die when you fucked up.

>>49848864
Data was probably given permission because he's super likable and the bartender is an immortal with a machine gun that probably finds his unique nature worth remembering. Also he's also probably very good at mixing drinks.

Riker is just a presumptuous twat.

>>49848892
Yes but the never invented a warp engine. They used sails that worked in the location around their homeworld because tacyons or some shit.

>>49848872
Thread is long gone. But the crux of it was that, until Nemesis. We don't see any other capital ship in the Romulan arsenal besides the D'Deridex class. And seemingly they had shit tons of them. There were a number of theories.

1 The Romulan fleet put the D'Deridex front and centre as a form of intimidation, whilst the rest of the fleet generally stayed cloaked unless it was safe to do so.

2 The Romulans are trying to create a long term mobile starbase platform so that they can send vessels on extended long range missions and not have to resupply

3 The Romulans are idiots.

>>49848832
>That was the Federation's great failing in the Federation-Cardassian war, they lacked the WILLPOWER, the RESOLVE, to prosecute a war of defense to its proper conclusion

At this point, the Borg and Dominion are down the pike. The Klingon are polite frenemies, the Romulans may as well not exist, the Breen DON'T exist. Federation citizens very quickly weary of a protracted border skirmish that generates real dead bodies and space PTSD. Their leadership sues for peace. Unfortunately, the Federation rolling so quickly makes the spoonies get uppity, resulting in the subsequent Dominion alliance and necessary follow-up smackdown.

Will they learn from this mistake? Nope. Democratized utopia is a bitch that MUST be maintained at the cost of all else.

>>49848919
There also needs to be:
0. Just because we want to hold to the ideal of noninterference doesn't mean we're going to stand by and let a sapient race be wiped out, by themselves, others, or natural disasters. If their natural, noninterfered-with advancement is leading them to a Bad End, it's time to step in. Because we're not fucking monsters.

>>49848957
None the less they were fully exposed to the interstellar community. Once you're aware of alien civilisations and can communicate/trade with them. You qualify as a post-warp species. Because you could easily find the nearest frindly civ and buy a few of their older ships if you really wanted to.

>>49848832
>to prosecute a war of defense to its proper conclusion, which ends with the other side's shipyards blown up, their war industries phasered, and you dictating the terms of the peace treaty.

You see, I can follow along with you to a point, but this is where you're in grimdark land. Starfleet pressing a war of defense onto the soil of their enemy and destroying their capacity to make war is not Starfleet. You are applying a world view and an ideology based on the modern world to a civilization in the far future that doesn't share those values. Starfleet is not the Space Navy and they don't believe in that kind of force projection and enemy suppression as an appropriate strategy to employ in time of war. Unless there is DIRE need, and they showed during the Dominion War that they can recognize that dire need and muster the will to act when it is called for.

You are presuming that it is only right and proper for that will to ALWAYS be called for, and that is not what Star Trek is.

I don't want to consume this thread like we did the last one, we're obviously not going to agree on this. I'm just saying I think your thesis on how the Federation/Starfleet ought to operate makes sense but you go too far, and once you go that far you're betraying what those organizations are SUPPOSED to be, at least within the frame of the fiction if not in realistic practice.

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>>49848995
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Enemy warships bombarding San Fransisco will have shocked the shit out of a lot of those saints-in-paradise.

Sometimes, you need to be a saint, and sometimes, you need to be a Saint.

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>>49848801
>that's GREEN!
Well, scottie I knew you were adventurous but I think you must have bitten off more than you can chew.
>TFW most alien women believe biting to be a form of foreplay.
OH BOY!

>playing artemis bridge sim
>looking at custom consoles
is this a good thread to talk about consoles

>>49848832
>to prosecute a war of defense to its proper conclusion, which ends with the other side's shipyards blown up, their war industries phasered, and you dictating the terms of the peace treaty.

At that point, it's not really a war of defence at that point. You've turned it around and invaded them.

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>>49849041
So chugging along to Mothball Nebula in a sub-light tub and sticky finger pocketing a hard drive is considered as legitimate an accomplishment as actually inventing shit.

I thought the whole FTL thing being the pass mark for Real Boy status was bullshit before. Now I know the bullshit pool has a deep end.

Also by those principles the Pakled method of technological acquisition is legitimate and the Enterprise was being insensitive to their cultural traditions.

>>49849116
anything that's not continuing the last thread argument

>>49848891
>TFW you now know why all those woman wore the short skirts in TOS.
It was the only way they could compete the women of the other races for male attention.

>>49849135
You proactively defend yourself by taking away your enemy's capacity to make war in the future. That's why Japan doesn't have a military today. It's basically a policy that assumes your own moral superiority, and is great for building up resentment amongst the loser's population.

>>49848070
>So whatever happened to Professor Moriarty? Was his cube handed over to Starfleet so it could languish in a depot somewhere, or was it lost in the Battle of Veridian III?
TV canon or novel canon? TV canon is split. The writers weren't allowed to use him again because reasons. According to STO (the next best thing to TV canon), the Soong Foundation learned about him and the Countess in 2399, where the Foundation sued to get their holomatrix, but nothing more is covered.

Novel canon has Moriarty escaping, as covered in the Light Fantastic. Anything else would be a spoiler for an excellent novel.

>>49848993

I always figured that Romulan military doctrine called for the Star Destroyer approach. IE ships that were absurdly powerful, absurdly self-sustaining, absurdly modular so they can perform literally any potential mission profile, and absurdly numerous, their only drawback then being absurd expense.

This would at least explain why the Romulans are so reluctant to go to war despite their awesome tech and expansionist tendancies. A loss of even a handful of vessels could be a disaster in terms of ability to replace them. Artificial Black Holes can't be easy to manufacture.

It would also explain why we see fleets of D'Deridex on cargo hauling duty on two occasions. They're so versatile and numerous Romulan command can afford to have them hauling freight.

>>49849140

The Pakled are now a Federation member race. Starfleet now has Pakled Engineers.

Q save us all.

>>49849059
>Federation as the 3rd Street Saints

This can only go horribly right.

>>49849140
It means you can negotiate with them. It doesn't mean you have to like them or immediately acquiesce to their demands.

>>49849135
It's still a war of defense, because you didn't start it.

You're just FINISHING it. Because if you DON'T, if you lack the RESOLVE to finish it, you get the lopsided treaty where the Cardassians started a war, lost it, yet still gained territory, and were left with their warmaking industries fully intact, emboldening them and allowing them to build up even larger militarily to become a menace to you and to others later on.

>>49849185
Uh...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces

That? That's how you win a defensive war right. 70 years on, Japan is the United State's most stalwart ally in East Asia, and while we knocked the desire to go invade others for their stuff the hell out of them, we certainly didn't say they weren't allowed to defend themselves - and god help anyone else who starts shit with them, because you pick on our friends, you pick a fight with US.

>>49849185
And?

They can be as grumpy as they want they can't do shit because they have no standing army and it takes time to get one together and if it looks like they are getting one together you go back and remind them why they signed in the first place.

Also you can just invest all that cash into building up infrastructure and industry, become key player and controlling nation in EU, put forward a proposal for the EU to have it's own standing army and then you have your own army again controlled by proxy. With everyone else helping to pay for it. Like Germany are just about to do.

>>49849216
The Romulans have their own Commissars in the Tal Shiar. There is no way in fuck they would create a fleet that could do that. Otherwise, once Spock started the Unification movement, the Romulan Neutral Zone would go full Hunt for Red October literally every day.

>>49849247
Oh, you're American. Well that explains a lot.

>>49849280
> Romulan Hunt for Red October all day erryday
Anon, I love the cut of your jib and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

>>49849116
Post 'em

>>49849185
But doing that you pretty much have to make them a satellite state at that part or you will have ever other asshole in space try and claim their shit as their own. So when Fed/Klingons/romulans won they would be sub-dividing Carddie space like a cake or someone would do it for them.
>BTW what did happen to Cardassians after the war anyway?

>>49849247
So you're saying that they should have made the Cardassian Union a protectorate of the Federation?

>>49849364
No because they didn't have to be because the Federation rewarded them for loosing a war they started.

>>49849247

>It's still a war of defence, because you didn't start it.

Yeah, about that.

>2367 USS Phoenix attacks Cardassian outposts without orders

This was AFTER hostilities ended the first time.

Not saying the Cadassians are good people but the restarted war leading up to the truce was started by a federation ship.

>>49849364
If they want to be, then yes. If not, then on their heads it be. But either way, if they start a war with you, you smash their ability to wage war with you again FLAT, and inform them in no uncertain terms you will not tolerate future warmongerin' on their parts.

>>49849379
>>2367 USS Phoenix attacks Cardassian outposts without orders
>This was AFTER hostilities ended the first time.
>Not saying the Cadassians are good people but the restarted war leading up to the truce was started by a federation ship.

Yeah, and that assjack should have been court-martialed, and then handed right the fuck over to the Cardassian Union to face their justice. The command crew of his ship should have been ejected from Starfleet for not having the testecular, ovarian, or other fortitude required to remove him from command before that became nessessary.

>>49849300
Imagine a Romulan who sounds exactly Londo Mollari as your Ramius type (to further the Tomalak-G'kar references), and boom, there you go. Include some sort of Baldwin parallel and you have a game. Though now I want to run a game where the Romulans sound and act like the Centauri...

>>49849326
>BTW what did happen to Cardassians after the war anyway?

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Cardassian_Union

TLDR: economy crashed, they basically Japan-ed and demilitarized in exchange for Fed protection. Religious cult sprang up, splintered from the Union, and are generally busy being assholes in current continuity.

>>49849401
You lost me with the Babylon Five, sorry dude. GG, no re.

>>49849280
>>49849300
I'm guessing there are at least a few Tal Shiar sleeper agents among the crew too. Just in case, captain gets any ideas to shoot the commissar which be the first I'd do if I was going to go rogue. So best thing to do then is space the kitchen staff (ie sorry guys) and then kill the commissar.

>>49849465
No biggie anon. Imagine a huge hammy type, and you're set. You just lose the amusing accent.

>>49849400

>Yeah, and that assjack should have been court-martialed, and then handed right the fuck over to the Cardassian Union to face their justice. The command crew of his ship should have been ejected from Starfleet for not having the testecular, ovarian, or other fortitude required to remove him from command before that became nessessary.

Yeah but it's hard to call it a defensive war at that point when the federation restarted it.

>>49849471
>space the kitchen staff
>Tal Shiar not hiding a fanatical true believer in engineering with specific "kill everyone yourself included" conditional orders

It's like you don't even allahu akbar.

>>49849518
Any yeoman with a grudge can fuck up that singularity drive without even trying, apparently.

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>>49849518
Sorry it was a joke.
>TFW good come back, anon.

>>49849493
>Yeah but it's hard to call it a defensive war at that point when the federation restarted it.

That's not a war, that's one criminal going rogue and being dealt with properly: court-martialed, and then handed over to the people he aggrieved against to face THEIR justice.

>>49849630
The only time I know of that happening is with Riker 2.0 in one of the novels and that's only because the Cardassians were the ones that caught him. I think the captain that blew up Carddie shit is still rotting in a feddie prison somewhere I bet. Even if he is a traitor he's still too valuable to just hand over.

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>>49849223
>mfw

>>49849630

Yes but it did restart the war.

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>>49849813
>TFW the boss from 'Dilbert' is a vice admiral/ambassador in star fleet.

>>49849813
>Pakled in Starfleet
>Pakled Admiral
>That biography
My sides, anon, they've been spaced like a Tal Shiar cook.

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>>49849567
That's one of the hazards of starship life I guess. Doesn't help when at least half the crew has haxor skilz as a matter of course, and/or has easy access to weapons that can vaporize large chunks of rock.
>tfw the federation isn't a socialist utopia, but a fascist dystopia
>tfw nobody cares because all their needs are met, the shuttles run on time, and the space-wehrmacht keeps them safe from space vikings
Machiavelli is right again: as long as the people aren't being oppressed, they don't care what happens at the top, or at the borders.

>>49849897
Alice is a Q.

>>49849230
>*Is now imagining a bright purple Sovereign class with Neon Lighting EVERYWHERE, and the Phasers replaced with something stolen from the Borg, and the Captain of the Starship Sainterprise just blares Rap over the airwaves as they tool around space.*

All of my Yes.

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>>49848672

It really depends on the show.

Picard, for example, seems to do pretty well in a grimdark setting...

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>>49850037

...Kirk however, does not.

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>>49850056

I don't know what the fuck is up with Janeway

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>>49850080

And Sisko? Yeah, Sisko seems to do his own thing

>>49849813
I just watched the Pakled episode. So are they stupid or is it just their language? The show was kind of giving mixed signals.

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>>49850101

Archer seems to have found some smug satisfaction

>>49850189
They pretend to be stupid so they can steal the technologies of other civilizations.

>>49850035
>Borg weapons
>Not weaponizing Dub-stepped Klingon Opera or making a Federation propaganda gun, or a bomb filled with Lwaxana Troi's sex drive.

>>49850189
I figure they aren't terribly smart in the scheme of things, but clever enough to know that and use it to their advantage. Their language might also be simple, perhaps because they're not normally a verbal people (ie, use body language, pheremones, etc to communicate).

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>>49849308
Here's a thing that someone made very cheaply that looks ok and leaves a lot of room for expansion (separate keyboard either hacked apart to use custom buttons or just a more complicated overlay with big stupid plastic chunk buttons). For those not familiar, Artemis is the one where you LAN several computers together and operate a spaceship from your stations.

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>>49848672
Hey I found a grimdark Captain Picard for you.

>>49848832
NOBODY was arguing against that in the last thread.

The only thing the 'noblederps', as our modest brave admirals-of-the-week-gone-rogue would call them were saying was that AFTER YOU NEGOTIATE A PEACE TREATY, YOU HONOR THE TERMS.

The Cardassian war peace treaty involved giving up Federation colonized planets that were jutting out into Cardassian space, just like Cardassia gave up colonized planets jutting out into Federation space. It evened out the borders, as part of said peace treaty.

The Cardassians promptly evacuated their colonies, and their colonists obeyed the law and left. SOME of the Federation colonists threw a shit fit and WILLINGLY CHOSE TO STAY ON THE PLANETS, KNOWING THAT MEANT THEY WERE NOW UNDER THE GOVERNANCE OF THE CARDASSIAN UNION.

Then they became terrorists, like, overnight. Because fuck those spoonheads, this is my dirt, I'm not leaving on any of the numerous Federation starships that came to evacuate us, to take us to another colony world where we could live in peace and prosperity.

Then they (the thousands of them that there were, at most) whined and moaned when the Federation, who had offered them evacuation, who had made it very clear to them that they were choosing to cease being Federation citizens by staying on planets that were no longer Federation territory, who still worked behind the scenes to put pressure on the Cardassians not to try anything overt against their new residents, didn't BREAK THE PEACE TREATY to go fuck those spoonheads up and start a war that'd cost millions of lives.

This has been portrayed as 'betraying the colonists' and 'being cucks' and 'being noblederp pacifists' and 'not having the courage to stand up against aggression'.

THERE WAS NO FURTHER AGGRESSION. THE MAQUIS WERE THE AGGRESSORS. THEY STARTED A FIGHT THEY COULDN'T WIN, and for what? Dirt. Not even 'the only dirt they'd ever have', just 'this particular dirt'.

Did any of you even WATCH The Ensigns of Command?

Fucking space/pol/.

>>49849185
You do realize a big theme in Star Trek is that Federation humanity has become more enlightened, less warlike, and less aggressive than, say, they were in the 20th century that (in their reality) lead to the Eugenics and third (and then maybe fourth) World Wars?

That the humans of the Federation would have, when faced with a war like WWII, only in SPACE, have continued negotiating rather than dropping the two atomic bombs, accepted less than total surrender, and probably wouldn't have pushed for total demilitarization, so long as the war was ended and a peace treaty signed?

In fact, they probably wouldn't have deliberately provoked the space-Japanese into starting the war by cutting off their supply of oil, but WOULD have answered the calls for help from space-Asia, because they aren't isolationists.

IN FACT, IT'S ALMOST AS IF YOU CAN'T JUST PLOP DOWN OUR RIGHT-WING CHICKENHAWK MEMES INTO STAR TREK AND EXPECT THEM TO MAKE ANY SENSE.

>>49850080
Is Janeway supposed to be in the Knight?

Because I could see that. Bitch loves her dakka.

>>49851381
I believe it's supposed to represent the chaotic battleground that is her psyche.

>>49850243
They're smart enough not to be all techno-raider all the time, too. You can see them from time to time on DS9, being peaceful traders/travellers (presumably).

I guess they just use their first contact to try and gank what they can, then don't go carrying on being jerks when they know it'll get them in trouble with people who know their real selves.

>>49848615
like corn syrup

>>49851225
>he Cardassian war peace treaty involved giving up Federation colonized planets that were jutting out into Cardassian space, just like Cardassia gave up colonized planets jutting out into Federation space.
I thought each side got to keep some of their exclaves as well, which the Cardassians were amenable to be cause part of their entire reason for being so expansionistic is a lack of resources in their sector

>>49851598
They only got to keep what they had before the specific Cardassian war with the Federation began.

So, no, they didn't go and invade Federation space, then get to keep a bunch of planets they'd conquered there. They may have gotten to keep some planets they'd had a specific claim in the records on before the war, but which the Federation thought was unclaimed...just like the Federation got to do the same with planets on THEIR side.

Is any peace treaty perfect for either side in a conflict? No, because they're PEACE treaties, not total surrenders forced at the point of a phaser bank. You have to give and take. But it was NOT one-sided or even particularly lopsided in the Cardassian's favor (though the Federation was clearly more interested for Peace for Peace's sake than Cardassia, who signed because they knew they couldn't win without an even uglier cost).

Tens, or even hundreds of thousands (was it even millions?) of lives were lost in this pointless conflict. Neither side wanted to continue it, or reignite it, aside from some fanatics or complete pieces of slime only in it for themselves.

On BOTH sides.

>>49850035
basically STO

>>49851225
>THE MAQUIS WERE THE AGGRESSORS. THEY STARTED A FIGHT THEY COULDN'T WIN
Actually, until the Jem'Hadar came along, the Maquis were doing mostly alright. The Cardassians alone couldn't deal with them, and Starfleet had bigger problems by then. Without the Jem'Hadar wiping out the Maquis, they would probably still have been a thorn in their side.

>>49851854
The Maquis only did so well because the Cardassians got invaded by the Klingons in a sneak attack.

Until that happened, they were seriously fucked.

All it took was a catastrophic invasion of their enemy by one of the major powers of the Quadrant who didn't care about the value of life!

>>49850189
The Pakleds had an election and made Matt Damon their king.

>>49851883
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Maquis
>Back in the Alpha Quadrant, the Maquis managed to not only survive, but to expand their influence and consolidate their position inside the Demilitarized Zone in the two years following the Orias incident. The Maquis' good fortune came in large part thanks to massive upheavals inside the Cardassian Union. Following the destruction of the Obsidian Order the previous year (DS9: "The Die is Cast"), the Cardassian dissident movement managed to overthrow the Central Command and place power in the civilian Detapa Council.

The above disagrees with you. The Maquis were doing fine prior to the Klingon-Cardassian War. The Cardassians needed Starfleet's help even because the Maquis were doing so well.

>>49851971
Dude, the Klingons invaded within a WEEK of the Detapa Council taking control.

It's what they used as a pretext for their invasion.

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>>49851410
>TFW high proof corn syrup
>So it's like higher proof cough medicine?
I would only drink that shit warm if I had a choice and maybe while also having the flu. Otherwise, NOPE!

>>49852008
The Maquis were doing fine YEARS before the Klingon invasion. Yes, that war did help the Maquis with the Klingons backing them, but they were, "managed to not only survive, but to expand..."

The Maquis were doing very well on their own prior to the Kilingon-Cardassian War.

>>49851685
Well, I think the CU really only agreed to have some down time to get more resources and build back up their war machine. So on the Cardassians part the treaty was no more than a breather from hostilities. And that's show to be at least partially true with what happened with the Phoenix attacks. The CU didn't care about lives at an empire level they just wanted to fight so that the military could stay in charge being on a war time footing all the time.

>>49852052
>YEARS

The Obsidian Order being destroyed and the Detapa Council coming to be happened within a few months of each other. (within 5 episodes of the same season)

They were on the edge, being hunted by the Cardassians and Starfleet alike within the badlands (just the most radical Maquis cells) until that span of a few months and the Cardassians being totally fucked up by outside forces.

This is not an indication of Maquis strength, but of situational Cardassian weakness.

They lasted a whole season on their own between the Orias incident and the OO being destroyed. One year. With said year happening within the span of time when Starfleet was keeping a close eye on the Cardassians to keep them from outright attacking the Maquis colonies.

>>49852106
I literally linked the article. I can't make you read it however. The Maquis were doing fine. It took the Jem'Hadar, not the Cardassians, to wipe them out. Had the Cardassians not allied with the Dominion, the Maquis would still have been a problem for them. Seriously, go read the article. Shit doesn't go downhill for the Maquis until the Dominion gets involved.

>http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Maquis

>>49852137
Memory Alpha is an amazing wiki that's highly useful for finding details of characters in episodes, cultural details from the show (meaning specific examples of stuff from episodes), etc.

Memory Alpha is not so great at trying to extrapolate or draw conclusions beyond their actual catalogued material.

I'm listing actual shit that happened within the show, giving timelines between specific episodes, and only referring to actual stuff mentioned or displayed on screen.

The Maquis were barely getting along as a bunch of scrappy rebels for about a year and a quarter before the Cardassians got invaded by the Klingons and seriously fucked up. They made it roughly a year before the OO was wiped out.

They made it that far WITHOUT BEING WIPED OUT THEMSELVES. Which, hey, great, kudos to them, though the Federation and Starfleet closely watching what the Cardassians were doing as regards the Maquis colony worlds, preventing them from going all-out (because they never REALLY just abandoned them completely, despite their big tough dad talk to the contrary) probably helped a lot with that.

All I'm saying is that the Maquis got incredibly lucky...until they didn't. If the OO didn't get wiped out, and the Detapa Council didn't take over (and get nearly wiped out by the Klingon surprise attack within days of its formation), and the Klingons didn't all-out invade Cardassia as a whole in horrific fighting?

If all those major events that shook Cardassia to its core, in a way nobody ever could've predicted, hadn't happened?

Well, you can see how 'they're going to wind up starting another war with Cardassia if we get involved' was a reasonable outlook from the Federation, right? Can you at least admit that much?

>>49852230
>Well, you can see how 'they're going to wind up starting another war with Cardassia if we get involved' was a reasonable outlook from the Federation, right? Can you at least admit that much?

Yes, I will admit that much.

I watched the same episodes you did, and yet I still agree with the Memory Alpha article on the Maquis. My reasoning for why the Maquis did more than just avoid getting wiped out is that they had a lot of actual help from sympathetic members of the Federation and Starfleet in particular. We saw that with Eddington. But we know that there were others that, well not going as far as Eddington went, were at the very least understanding of the Maquis cause.

>>49852327
I don't recall anything on or off-screen, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Maquis also had backing from Section 31. That would be right up their alley.

>>49852327
Shit, if Voyager's Caretaker bullshit hadn't happened, Cardassia's mega-missle would've made it back to a Cardassian planet and caused millions of casualties (maybe just thousands if it was a colony world, but Bea'lanna seemed ambitious about it), and shit would've gone DOWN at that point.

Man, the Maquis was involved in so much deus ex machina bullshit that no analyst could predict.

>>49852387
Aschelan V was the intended target, and all we really know about it is that it is a Cardassian planet and a fuel dump. So, probably not a lot of population either way, but more important as a military target/for strategic purposes.

>>49849018
Then you're playing God. One way or the other.

>>49849059

You I like!

>>49852498
This is an argument that doesn't make sense for the mostly atheistic humans of the 24th century. By that logic, why engage with galactic affairs at all? Humans have been "playing God" since their earliest existence, merely by virtue of being the dominant species on Earth. Our existence itself involves "playing God," because any action we take has effects in the universe. What could be regarded as conservationist efforts (violating the Prime Directive) are scientifically and morally appropriate. A conscious being who can build a Warp Drive is no less sapient or deserving of life than one who cannot. IMO the Prime Directive is the worst piece of protocol Starfleet has on the books.

Youtube just recommended this to me. What the actual fuck?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs

>>49848595
I can't talk to what Picard did in this episode or that. Blame the writers. But, from what I gather, the benchmark of ftl travel is considered the point at which a civilization has chosen to join the galactic commjnity. They have to find their own way so that they are mature enough, as a civilization, to accept that membership and the responsibilities that come with it.

The Prime Directive isn't perfect and we see that there are reasons to violate it from time to time but I prefer Kirk's logic - determining that some artificial tampering had already stagnated (see For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky) or retarded (see Piece of the Action) a civilization's development) to Picard's... which, as you've pointed out, is sometimes wishy-washy.

>>49853205
>chosen

No.

If a civilization like ours but more unified globally detected Federation signals and knew what was out there and we sent a message asking to join they would refuse.

And if we were about to get blatted by a comet they would let us did.

>>49849018
Unless you know what will come out of your tampering you could screw up royally. They say in tng that you got to have the absolute knowledge of a god to justifiably fuck around with prewarps.

>>49851225
The Federation never should have signed that treaty in the form it was in. They lost all credibility when they sell their colonists out.

Let me try to put this in analogy: A big bully sees you have something for lunch he wants. He punches you to take it. He's just some mogilla gorilla, YOU are an anime hero and are fully capable of shattering his back in one blow, but you hold back. He escalates, and beats the shit out of several other diners in the cafeteria, and still you hold back. Finally, you've worn him down, but you've held back, and you tell him this is pointless and he should stop being an asshole. He then says he'll give you part of his lunch, but he wants part of your lunch and that of the other diners. AND YOU FUCKING GIVE IT TO HIM rather than smacking him and shouting "BAKAAAAAA!"

Only it's not lunch that's on the line, it's peoples HOMES AND LIVES.

>>49854671
Well, they're fucking wrong. There are no certainties in life, and it might turn out bad if you interfere with a prewarp. But you know what, things might turn out bad if you mess with a postwarp, too! See also: The Romulan Star Empire, the Klingon Empire, the Cardassian Union, The Dominion, The Borg, The Breen.

Noninterference is a nice ideal, but take it too far and it stops being noblebright and it becomes noblederp. When you're prepared to sit back and passively observe the EXTERMINATION OF A SAPIENT RACE, you are crossing that line at Warp Nine. When a prewarp race is slated for destruction, either from their own stupidity, natural disasters that they could not have possibly averted, or the actions of a race that doesn't subscribe to the Prime Directive, it's time for Galaxy-class starships to show up in orbit and save the fucking day. If possible, without revealing themselves, but if not, then so fucking be it.

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Tell me about your Trek character

Why does she wear the miniskirt?

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>>49854739
Because she's a sexy, sexy space drow and she knows it. Also, her girlfriend (the Orion) likes the easy access in the old Ready Room.

>>49854717
Your opinion is dumb and so are you. I'm done trying to discuss this with you. Dirt isn't worth breaking a peace treaty, and it's not worth killing thousands or millions of Cardassians to 'bring them to heel', either.

Maybe a different sci-fi series would suit you better.

>>49854781
The peace treaty NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNED IN THAT STATE, dipshit. Go fuck yourself. A nation that won't defend the homes of its citizenry loses all credibility.

>>49854754

That orion outfit is not standard issue for Starfleet!

>>49854781
>Dirt isn't worth breaking a peace treaty

Fed government didn't break that treaty, Fed citizens did. That's why they were disavowed. No one shed any tears when the Maquis eventually got exterminated, because they were no longer part of the Federation.

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>>49854781
> "Jean-Luc, we're only moving six hundred people."
> "How many people does it take, admiral, before it becomes wrong? Hmm? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million? How many people does it take, admiral?!"

How many people indeed, Admiral? How many of your own people are you prepared to sell upriver to appease a naked aggressor? Hrm? A few thousand? A million?
Would you hand a few thousand Federation citizens over to the Borg, if they agreed to leave the UFP alone if they got to assimilate a reasonable statistical cross-section of the Federation's people?
Would you hand a few thousand over to the Romulan Star Empire so they can feel good about having Humans and Vulcans and Andorians as a helot race somewhere in the Star Empire?
Would you hand a few thousand Betazed over to the Dominion so they can splice Betazed genes into the Vorta?

No. No, I would not, and neither should you. Your morals are atrocious, you lack the RESOLVE to defend your people, to stand up for the principles you PURPORT to uphold!

>>49854848
No, no it isn't. I don't know if you can get UFP-sourced Orion Boffs in normal Starfleet Uniforms these days, but I ground sooooo many diplomatic treaties (in my fancy whites,) to earn an Imperial Orion Boff.
Worth. So worth.

>>49854876
>No, no it isn't. I don't know if you can get UFP-sourced Orion Boffs in normal Starfleet Uniforms these days,

Shame Starfleet never introduced a bikini-style uniform. Why not, it appears they're pretty accomodating with styles otherwise

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>>49854890
Don't let the fact that she's dressed for the beach distract you, that Orion is a fabrications engineer with a habit of replicating turrets in-situ, and she uses a BFG 9000 in a fight.

Here's my crew in (mostly) more practical outfits, about to go lay the unholy smack on some Borg and fail to save Jennifer Sisko.

>>49854876
The Federation handed land over to the Cardies, not people. The people were told to leave and they refused. At that point, they are acting against their government.

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>>49854926
> "But some of the darkest chapters in the history of my world involve the forced relocation of a small group of people to satisfy the demands of a large one. I'd hoped we had learned from our mistakes, but it seems that some of us haven't."
> - Picard, to Anij

Thankfully, by 2379, Jean-Luc has learned from the folly of his younger years. TNG may have been a mixed bag, but on the bridge of the Big E-E, he was the hero the Federation needed.

>>49854912
>(mostly) more practical outfits,

Meh.

>>49854951

What?
We started off as a science ship! Then the shit got real, we started smacking down the Borg, and we were assigned to frontline Fleet operations.
I just saw no reason to switch out from the science ship whites.


Don't ask why that Romulan-Trill hybrid is wearing a liesure suit. She's not actually Starfleet, she's kind of like Major Kira. She's not really one of us, she just hangs around with us and occasionally performs acts of ultraviolence on our behalf when necessary.

>>49854965

Non-skimpy UFP uniforms.

Bah. Bah!

>>49854987
I had PLENTY of different outfits, including some that were downright skimpy, but sadly, I seem to have nuked my old screenies folder, and I don't want to reinstall STO just to take more pics.

>>49854950
I'd think it would be worth relocating people in order to shorten a war, but ok.

>>49855024
No, it isn't. ASKING them to move is okay, but MAKING them move? No. Not okay. Not okay at ALL.

>>49855033
But what if more civilians had died in the war?

>>49855033
Congratulations, you get to leave the Federation and go move to a non-Federation colony/some non-aligned race's world and be a libertarian there.

That is your freedom.

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>>49854781
>>49854865
Actually, the Cardassians broke the treaty by sending a military presence into the DMZ, but the Federation never really gets uppity when other space empires perform such acts of war (see: every time the Romulans violate the NZ in TNG, let alone the few times they actually cross into the federation), so why get mad at the Cardassians for doing it this time?

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>>49855052

So you would thrust them in an impossible situation where they either have to abandon their homes, or be occupied by a brutal fascist regime?
Or become that fascist regime yourselves, selling the Federation's principles upriver in the name of expediency, relocating them by FORCE?

No. Absolutely not.
You see the name on that hull?

That proposal is a disgrace to that name. Abandoning those people to that fate was the Federation's blackest moment in the 24th Century; stop trying to uphold it as the morally right thing!
It wasn't. It was a tragic moment of noblederp, when the principles of the Federation were flanderized, taken to such an extreme that they were VIOLATED, and a holocaust was the ultimate result.

Thankfully, for certain values of the word thankful, the Borg, the Cardassians, the Dominion - they were the wake-up call. They reminded the Federation that VIGILANCE is the price of freedom. Let it never forget it again; let the founding principles of the Federation, of all governments that would call themselves governments, never again be sacrificed on the altar of unreasoning nonviolence. Let nonviolence be a means, not an ends unto itself; PEACE is the end! Nonaggression is the peace, but turning the other cheek only to get it smote in turn is not the way!

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Did humans perfect genetic engineering? Because it seems our women all have great legs and butts in the future.

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>>49849223
They aren't just engineers.

>>49855094

It's not like Fed stuff doesn't wander into the neutral zone all the damn time too. It seems more the 'don't stay in it too long' zone than 'No military allowed'

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>>49855355
It's like Finnish airspace for Russian planes.
t:spurdo

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As much as I think this cyclical argument is complete bollocks, I'm gonna weigh in with my relevant opinions and then leave it at that. This may take a couple posts, and if you bear with me you may find the entire body of text to be somewhat reasonable. I'll accompany all my posts with pictures of my nebbie.

The Federation is not an empire. It has more in common with the UN than any single sovereign nation. They aren't a threat because they go around assfucking anybody that disagrees with them. They're a threat because if you fuck with one of them, you fuck with all of them. The UFP is the largest "state" in local space, with the Klingons coming in second. It has access to insane quantities of rescources, surpasses everybody else on a technological level and expands faster and with more success.

So imagine, now, that they threw their weight around. Say they decide to invade Romulan space because they want some more Dilithium. They would very quickly unite everybody else against them. And while the UFP could win a war against any of them individually, they couldn't win a war on all fronts.

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>>49855365
On the topic of the Cardassian war. It is not the purview of Starfleet, or any other body within Starfleet to invade places that disagree with them. To defend themselves? Absolutely. To strike military targets within hostile territory? Totally, if you can. To set up a puppet state that more readily accepts the UFP? Well that's the murky grey area the the Dominion war leaves us with. In any war before that, they hadn't. But then the Federation has never dealt with a threat like the Dominion. (Essentially the Nega-Federation)

So, on the whole, the Feds avoid war and avoid domination. If you join, you join of your own free will. When the opportunity to end a conflict presents itself, they will pursue that option before all others. And in order to keep the Federation happy and unified, they need peace as often as possible. Wars cause suspicion and xenophobia. In a State of hundreds of different species and worlds, that sort of thinking causes problems very quickly.


That being said. The Federation negotiated a crap deal with Cardassia. Perhaps this was a result of ramped up losses over the last couple years (Yamato, Wolf 359, etc.) Perhaps it was down to public weariness with the war and a general call to end hostilities (similar to how US public opinion turned against the Vietnam war). So negotiations were very one sided. The Federation gave away territory, in return for some Cardassian colonies. Colonies that the Cardassians promptly abandoned in the expectation that the Feds would reciprocate. Realistically, as the aggressors and defeated party, Cardassia should have pushed further to return to their pre-war borders.

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>>49855376
But that's the deal that was made and that's when the Federation made its second mistake. Non domination applies to your own people too. Not only should a state fight for all of its citizens, but it should defend their freedoms to the last. By 1) surrendering their homes and 2) attempting to forcibly relocate them, the Federation did them, as well as itself, a disservice. To quote a certain officer involved in those attempted forced relocations "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Now I'm sure plenty of people willingly bailed out of the DMZ. And that's fine. The Federation is huge, there are plenty of places to relocate. But the people that stayed were abandoned by their own government, seen as a nuisance for not abandoning the homes they had likely fought to defend during the war. And that doesn't paint the Federation in a good light.

Not only that, but it sends the message that Federation colonies can be claimed with time and patience. And wouldn't you know it, the Romulans up and tried that shit with a surprise invasion of Vulcan.


On to my final point. The Maquis was never going to work. Rather than forcing the Federation to intervene and protect their citizens, the Maquis made an enemy of Starfleet. Essentially they trapped themselves between a rock and a giant pearlescent ball of fuck. They made things untenable for themselves and all of the colonists who wanted to get on with their lives.

>>49855365
>>49855376
>>49855387
There you go. New feel free to tell what a monster I am for holding views not entirely in line with your own.

>>49855365
>>49855376
>>49855387

Exactly. The Federation abandoned its principles with that ridiculous treaty they never should have signed, and that caused the inevitable to happen.

>>49854717

Except what he got was 'His lunch and no one elses'. The cardies got 'What they had before the war, nothing else'.

>>49855448

Right, so that would be why dozens of worlds full of Federation citizens were handed over, because they were all the Cardie's lunch, right

No, wait, the other thing.

>>49855350
See? Pakleds mastered the use of those shrinking anomolies years before the Federation even discovered it.

>>49855494
DOZENS OF CARDASSIAN WORLDS WERE HANDED OVER TO THE FEDERATION.

Jesus christ, do you people just not ever bother to read that part in all of this?

Neither side were happy with the treaty, but it was the only way to settle things without either side gaining a real advantage, while 'evening out' the border, rather than having these big extrusions of territory surrounded on three sides (on a two-dimensional reference) by the other side's space.

It wasn't capitulation. It was compromise, on both sides.

But yes, please, continue mangling Picard quotes (of him quoting someone else) that have nothing to do with territorial concessions in post-war peace treaties, and the reneging thereof. Please, continue to try and ignore the fact that 'They totally should've broken the peace treaties, providing evidence to the interstellar community that the Federation can't be trusted to adhere to its sworn word' is a totally principled and brave thing to do.

Everyone who chose to stay, a choice that held no weight but their own stubborn, foolish, pride, did so knowingly and willingly, OF THEIR OWN ACCORD, making the choice to live within the borders of the Cardassian Union, and to accept all consequences of that decision.

They weren't abandoned. They abandoned the Federation, just the same as Tasha Yar's rape-gang colony, or half a dozen others.

>>49855656
Because cherry picked arguments fall apart when you look at the bigger picture. Was the treaty a shit deal for the Federation? Yes. Was it a shit deal for the Cardassians? Also yes. The key difference is that the Cardassian people have a duty to the state, where the reverse is true of the Federation.

>>49855656

Just give up anon. The people who keep making these arguments are completely trapped by 20th Century thinking. All their understandings of diplomacy, land and resource management, territorial integrity and the morals related to those things are incapable of adapting to the difference of circumstances between now and Star Trek's setting.

Not to mention that based on the absolutist terms they're talking in, they're not even capable of considering the merits of alternative schools of thought for diplomacy and war that exist, you know, TODAY.

Even if you were capable of getting them to acknowledge the facts they conveniently choose to ignore, they won't change anything, they'll just dismiss them as irrelevant to the principal because the principal cannot fail, but can only BE failed.

>>49855728
Fascinating. You seem to have this idea that the Federation is some sort of libertarian paradise, where citizens have no duties to the state, to the law, or to anything but what they want to do?

It isn't.

Colonists are under the authority of Starfleet, ultimately. When a Captain shows up and says 'there's a problem, time to evacuate', you're supposed to start packing and get on the ship. Because they don't do that shit lightly.

Just like they did here. Was it "fair"? From the Colonists' perspective, hell no, it doesn't seem fair. But they still have a duty to follow the laws of the Federation, and that includes abiding by the strictures of treaties and other inter-governmental agreements between the Federation and other powers.

Including this treaty, which says their colony is now part of the Cardassian Union, so they need to evacuate back to the Federation.

Hell, they're lucky, they aren't even in any real imminent danger or peril, they can take their time and pack up all their belongings, the only things they have to leave behind are their buildings and the land itself.

But no, that's not good enough for these Colonists. It isn't like other Colonists haven't had to evacuate before due to matters of war and treaties. It isn't like there weren't Colonists along/inside the Neutral Zone that didn't have to evacuate. It isn't as if there weren't Colonists in Gorn territory that had to pack up and leave, the ones that were lucky enough not to be wiped out in the first place.

>>49854754
She looks like the Martian Queen.

>>49855801
What I don't get is that, for the most part, we agree. Peace was the right course of action and the Feds shouldn't have invaded Cardassia. (I'm nebbie-anon, by the way)

I just think the Federation made a bad deal, creating a problem which was then only compounded by the dumbass decision of the Colonists to remain. As somebody who's grown up in the shadow of a similar conflict, I can understand, up to a point, the decision of the colonists. Just as I can understand the "needs of the many" stance taken by the Federation.

But the Federation needs to have a longer view than "peace today, sectarian violence tomorrow." Part of maintaining peace is avoiding a situation that may cause a new war. Like it or not, those colonists are Federation citizens, and that means they have certain rights, expressly protected by the Federation. You don't get to cherry pick those rights.

I'm not one of these guys that seems to think the Federation is idiotic for not just wiping out the Cardassians. I'm just saying that they need to think before they act. And for a massive, egalitarian society, full of philosophers, political scientists and sociologists, that shouldn't be hard.

>>49849059
And sometimes you need St Olga because after the 12th Ferangi slave raid by "privateers" who have nothing to do with the Tower of Commerce oy vey our hands are clean in this matter it's time to make them cut that shit out by disabling by force every unscheduled crossing of the border.

Klingon government won't do anything about individual Great Houses going on pillage trips into Federation space? Remind them why the old grey-hairs get Nam flashbacks when they hear the name Kirk.

Romulan spy found trying to brain rape someone into being a sleeper assassin. Send that spy home in an urn.

Peace at any cost is not worth the price.

>>49855982

"Peace through superior firepower." Because that's what Star Trek is all about, am I right guys? Fucking hell.

Enough of this. We've covered every point and every counterpoint there is to cover. The people who think the Federation is libertarian and the people who think the Federation is communist aren't going to magically change opinions. So let's just drop it, rather than trying to "win" on the Internet.

So, somebody, anybody. Tell me what the fuck the Breen are supposed to be.

>>49856028
They are Too cool for school

>>49856028

Kira took a suit off one on Cardassia. I kept wanting her to tell us what the fuck she saw.

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>>49856028
Keepers of the most secret government and corporate secrets. Owners of multiple laptops and magic rocks, abolishers of books.

>>49856028
Culturally very secretive. I actually like the idea of the novel canon's, where the Breen aren't a single race, but a coalition of them. The original Breen need the refrigeration suits, but the rest have joined and wear the suits to keep the Breen's identities a secret. Section 31: Disavowed deals with the Breen society. STO's idea isn't really interesting.

>>49856005
No. Star Trek when seen start of ENT to TOS to TNG to DS9 is about a government going out into space and in order over time

Learning that shit will fuck you up if you let it and we are very small against the void

Becoming strong

Starting a union of interstellar nations built on respect and cooperation

Maintaining a peace and increasing in wisdom

Growing complacent and apathetic despite knowing and having encountered shit that does not subscribe to ideals of peace and means them nothing but harm

Becoming moral cowards and hiding behind rhetoric and procedure even as worlds die and their own people are slaughtered by their negligence

Learning how to get their shit back together to avoid annihilation and having to deal with the mistakes of the past.

>>49856149

You live in a very bleak and sad world.

>>49856028
You know that planet ENT encountered with the 2 species on it. One was smart but dying and the other was Full Potato.

The one where Dr Flox wanted to just let ones smart enough to count as real people die because Evolution.

When persuaded not to commit genocide by inaction he did buy them enough time to come up with a more lasting cure.

Sadly this meant that their biology was massively altered and they could only live at a temperature much lower than they were accustomed to or indeed anywhere but the poles and high mountains of their homeworld.

But all their everything was still in temperate zones that were no uninhabitable. They get around this by wearing Dr Freeze suits until they can find a nice Andoria style ice ball to move to. They become the Breen, an old word of their homeworld meaning Cold. They also become mildly xenophobic as it was a bunch of foreign off world doctors that got them this dubious cure.

The Potato near-people inherit the now abandoned cities and learn how to use even recreate some of the simpler shit. They manage to limp into space on borrowed brilliance and generally make a nuisance of themselves. They become known as the Pak'led.

>>49856165
Depression will do that to a man.

>>49856206
I quite like this idea

>>49855656
>DOZENS OF CARDASSIAN WORLDS WERE HANDED OVER TO THE FEDERATION.
So? I'm supposed to care?
The Cardassian Union STARTED A WAR OF AGGRESSION against the UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS. They should have been STOMPED FLAT then and there.
But they perceived, unfortunately correctly, that the Federation lacked the STOMACH, the WILL and RESOLVE, to prosecute a proper war.

So they fought the Federation to the point where the gutless cowards in charge were willing to make concessions - not because the Federation was INCAPABLE, but UNWILLING to fight, as they had been from the VERY START.

The Federation failed its duty to the colonists IT SENT THERE, and then it expected them to just uproot their lives and leave because the people who ATTACKED THEM for LIVING IN THEIR HOMES wanted them to do so!

It was a fucking shitshow, a disgusting, cowardly "compromise." The Klingon Empire were probably asking if the only people in the Federation with any valor left died aboard the Enterprise C, and the Romulan Star Empire was almost certainly emboldened by that nonsense; see also their frequent trips across the Neutral Zone.

>>49856432
>>49855656
The strings of all caps are making both of you sound like the kinds of crackpots who'd write angry letters to the editor in green ink.

>>49855982
Everything except "send the spy home in an urn", I'm with you on. That's an execution, and I'm not down with that. Toss the spy into a cooler on a super-ethical federation detention center, population: 1 prisoner, 50 guards and enough firepower nearby to reduce a D'Deridex Class Warbird to scrap metal within 30 minutes at high warp.

>Peace at any cost is not worth the price.
Too true! Ask Quark, son of Keldar, about the price of peace. It's very expensive when the other side has a clear advantage over you. When you're evenly matched, the price can become cheap, but it may still be higher than you should pay - which is what happened in the Fed-Card Treaty. When your enemy's shipyards are ruined, their war industries have been phasered off the face of their planets and their fleets are so much wreckage floating in deep space, it can be had at rock-bottom prices.

>>49856005
When you are attacked, you have but two options:
1: Capitulate
2: Fight

Assuming that you don't consider capitulation an acceptable option, you must fight. When you must fight, it is only logical to do so with maximum efficiency and effect, so as to bring the fighting to a decisive close in your favor as expeditiously as possible.

>>49855922
>I'm not one of these guys that seems to think the Federation is idiotic for not just wiping out the Cardassians.
Nobody is advocating for genocide here. But the Cardassian Union, at the time, was being warmongering dicks. And nobody needs warmongering dicks. Their ability to make further wars should have been smashed.

>>49856504
>Nobody is advocating for genocide here. But the Cardassian Union, at the time, was being warmongering dicks. And nobody needs warmongering dicks. Their ability to make further wars should have been smashed.

The problem with this reasoning is that the ability to make further wars and their ability to function as a spacefaring race are rather intimately tied together, and if you're sitting there babysitting all their manufacturing to make sure they aren't being naughty, you might as well drop the pretense that you're letting them remain a sovereign power.

>>49856149
Fucking this, anon.

>>49856165
And you live in a noblederp one where peace is apparently worth any cost, no matter who you have to sell upriver to get it, as long as you don't hurt the feelings of the guys who flagrantly attacked you because they were insecure.

Peace is not worth ANY price. Some things? Yes. But uprooting your own citizens, whom you moved there lawfully mind you - so this isn't a case of rogues moving out beyond the frontier, kicking up a hornet's nest and THEN expecting you to save them any way by relocating them - is not one of them.

>>49856533
So? Am I supposed to care?
They picked a fight and lost. They don't get to then have their war industries reappear. At that point, they have two options.
1: Tell us to leave. Fine, we'll do that, see you later, good luck not becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Klingon Empire/Romulan Star Empire/Ferengi Commerce Guild.
2: Ask us to stay. Fine, we'll do that, nobody's gonna fuck with you while we're around. We broke your pew-pew shit, now we'll take care of you until we're convinced you can be trusted with more shit.

>>49856432
>The Cardassian Union STARTED A WAR OF AGGRESSION against the UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS. They should have been STOMPED FLAT then and there.

You mean the one that a federation vessel turned hot after there was a cessation of conflict?

>>49856571

>So? Am I supposed to care?

Yes because that's against the Federation's ideals

>>49855494

It was a mutual exchange. Each side got the planets they had at the start of it that had been taken by the other side.

>>49855922
>I'm not one of these guys that seems to think the Federation is idiotic for not just wiping out the Cardassians. I'm just saying that they need to think before they act. And for a massive, egalitarian society, full of philosophers, political scientists and sociologists, that shouldn't be hard.

The issue is that...what was the better option? Keep cardassian worlds and provoke another war? Beat them into the dirt and keep them yourself?

Honestly, the real fuckup was letting colonists onto those worlds in the first place in the middle of an ongoing conflict...but I imagine it happened during the ceasefire that was starting to look like peace.

>>49856613
Which this thread and the last thread have rather conclusively proven to be inadequate to the as it exists.

>>49856504

>When your enemy's shipyards are ruined, their war industries have been phasered off the face of their planets and their fleets are so much wreckage floating in deep space, it can be had at rock-bottom prices.

>When you must fight, it is only logical to do so with maximum efficiency and effect, so as to bring the fighting to a decisive close in your favor as expeditiously as possible.

I'm exceedingly glad that not only will you never have any military or political authority in Star Trek, you will never have it in the real world either. You're one of those "we're fighting a politically correct war," morons. War Crimes are not justified by third-grade level They Started It arguments. Maximizing collateral damage, sacrificing the moral high ground for the sake of political or strategic expedience, showing a reckless disregard for the lives of others if it creates a fractional increase in the safety of our own lives, these are the things that ACTUALLY embolden our enemies. Showing compassion, mercy, and looking ceaselessly for opportunities to end the conflict rather than reasons to prolong it are not signs of weakness or invitations for predation, they are the ony possible way that lasting peace can ever be achieved.

But you are incapable of believing these things and think I'm a coward and a fool for even considering them, so whatever.

>>49856700
>conclusively proven
I must have missed that part.

Well lads, you heard him, we're wrong, time to go curbstomp those guys that looked at us funny.

>>49856571

>So? Am I supposed to care? They picked a fight and lost. They don't get to then have their war industries reappear.

By disarming, emasculating and humiliating Germany we have ensured that this Great War will surely be the last war ever! Good job everyone.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5TUw7sUBs

Highly relevant

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So are Fed citizens just self entitled dipshits? Especially those that settle out in the border areas because they think themselves some hot shit for being pioneers in their minds? How fuck disillusion are they? I'm guessing most citizens are more sensible and stay in more settled places in the UFP. How the hell can they accept living there and not expect shit to happen? See as pretty much all other space empires are freaking Space Mongols. It should be very telling that other empires don't call the secondary races in their empires members but slaves races or treat them as such. All other aliens races in the galaxy that have any power are asshole and usually blood thirsty assholes at that. Are all the bastards who live in outer areas of the UFP idealist idiots or something? SPACE IS FUCK DANGERIOUS BE CLOSE TO A STARBASE OR A HUB FOR CHIRST SAKE PEOPLE! Face it the only 'nice' people in Star Trek are the Feds, everyone else will shank you for your lunch money, why can't people get this?

>>49856760
We disarmed, shamed and humiliated Germany after the 2nd one as well. The difference is that we never put economic sanctions on them the 2nd time.

>>49856728
There is no crime in looking at someone funny. There is when you try to kill them.

>>49856723
>War Crimes are not justified by third-grade level They Started It arguments.
>> Destroying military targets
>> War Crimes
Okay whatevs.

>Showing compassion, mercy, and looking ceaselessly for opportunities to end the conflict rather than reasons to prolong it are not signs of weakness or invitations for predation, they are the ony possible way that lasting peace can ever be achieved.
You wanna know the fastest way to end a war?
The moment the other guy begins it, radio him and say "We surrender whatever we have to surrender to make you stop fighting us!"

Even the BORG will accept surrender with terms like that. Please form an orderly queue to the assimilation booth.

>>49856760
That's why you don't
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
dipshit, you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

>>49856830
They were sponsored to go and colonize those worlds by the UFP itself, so they had a very reasonable expectation that their security and the right to continue living there was guaranteed by the United Federation of Planets.
Then the UFP found its testecular fortitude to actually do what was required to guarantee those expectations they had created lacking, so they just said "Psych! Remember those homes we helped you go make for yourselves? The cardies want them, so you're gonna leave or we're gonna let them fucking massacre you!"

>>49856902

If the Japanese people had not en-mass rejected militarism, become functional pacifists and non-economic isolationsists because of the cultural trauma of the Atomic Bombs, the way America handled their defeat and occupation would have laid the groundwork for a future war just like every other war in history that's ended with a humiliation and emasculation on the part of the victors.

Wars have to end with both parties feeling like they're walking away with their dignity intact, or you're just guaranteeing there is going to be another war. Wounds of pride and "hurt feelings," stick in national memory forever.

The only other options are to leave the other side completely dead, completely conquered or for the other side to be forced to admit that they were the bad guys and they were right to lose. Generally speaking none of those are very likely. So again you're pretty much left with "Be a dick in victory and garuntee future war," or "Don't be a dick and actually get peace."

>>49856886
>There is no crime in looking at someone funny. There is when you try to kill them.
In Star Trek, depending on the alien race, it could an offense grave enough to declare war over. I wish I was joking but some of the shit they had to do in Trek verse to keep the peace was so stupid at times it wasn't funny. I mean most races in Trek as has been portrayed will rape your fuck if given half a chance. So to others just breathing in their space could be a crime to them. SO, NO. Always think your guilty of something in the other guys mind until he says otherwise, it's safer that way really especially Trek. Works also in some third world nations too.

>>49856996
Or your enemy just has to be so mind bogglingly large that thinking of going against them is synonymous to suicide.

>>49856996
So, that would be why Germany is once again at war with us?
Oh, no. No, it's not.

Letting the other guy "walk away with his dignity intact" when "his dignity" includes letting him gear up to try again in ten years time is stupidity; and you want to talk about dignity?
You have NO LEGS TO STAND UPON if you're talking about dignity in the same breath you're defending the Federation selling its own citizens upriver to appease Cardassian "dignity." Buying peace at the cost of losing your credibility as a government which will defend its citizenry is too high a cost.

>>49857045
Which is the UFP: and how they SHOULD have ended the Fedcard war: by crushing the Cardassian Union's ability to wage war and telling them to cut that shit out because it's annoying. Then just flying the fuck away.

>>49856902
>They were sponsored to go and colonize those worlds by the UFP itself, so they had a very reasonable expectation that their security and the right to continue living there was guaranteed by the United Federation of Planets.Then the UFP found its testecular fortitude to actually do what was required to guarantee those expectations they had created lacking, so they just said "Psych! Remember those homes we helped you go make for yourselves? The cardies want them, so you're gonna leave or we're gonna let them fucking massacre you!"
But how does a highly educated populous even fall for that shit. Unless there are large news blackouts from the fringe of UFP. You should be getting news of colonies every few months being eaten by Borg or giant snowflakes? So how can anyone be buying that shit that it's actually ok and safe to move out there to start a new life ever. I mean are all fed citizen 'sheep' and will just go where you tell them? But all this you can be anything thing you want and you aren't limited by anything mindset in UFP that they keep pushing. IT'S ALL A SHAM! No one else in the galaxy believes that shit and laugh at you behind your back when you bring it up. I know all governments lie but if the UFP citizens are so enlightened they should know this from the get go. But they are mostly too wrapped up the UFP flag to get this before it's too late. Which is when a fucking snowflake comes to your house and tries to eat you.

itt and the last thread: MAKE THE FEDERATION GREAT AGAIN

>>49857071

Every time you repeat this fox news-tier talking point about "selling citizens upriver and thus losing credibility as a government" I want to fucking claw my eyes out. You are talking fucking nonsense.

Selling land is not selling citizens. The Federation gained an amount of land equal to the amount of land it "sold." Attachment to particular land when you could easily move to the new land that was just gained to replace the land you're losing at a 1-1 ratio is retarded, especially when any arguments regarding hardship and economic loss in giving up land are meaningless because this is fucking Star Trek and those things don't exist.Your arguments are based entirely on esoteric warhawk garbage about APPEASING AGGRESSORS that are entirely divorced from the philosophy Star Trek is built on. Deal with it.

>>49849202
Thanks!

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>>49857152
>Selling land is not selling citizens.
If it's land those citizens are occupying, it fucking well is. I don't care if you got an equal trade in land the other guy's citizens were occupying - and you're a HUGE DICK if you asked for that land in the first place!

Selling your people's homes is dickery; demanding the other guy's people's homes is also dickery. It is also APPEASING AGGRESSORS, which is exactly what THIS GUY thought was the right call, and he was all "With this agreement, we have bought peace with our times!"
He didn't.

>>49857152
>The Federation gained an amount of land equal to the amount of land it "sold."

Which is fucking stupid.

The Cardassians weren't reprimanded in any way for starting a war and the Federation rightfully appears weak to the rest of the interstellar community to say nothing of cultivating resentment in it's own citizenry.

Remember when Aragorn King of Gondor let the Mordor keep Osgiliath after the war so the orcs didn't feel like they had lost their dignity? No. Nobody does. Because that would be beyond stupid.

>>49857238

Your assumption that military aggression requires punitive punishment in the event that aggression is defeated, and a lack of such is a sign of weakness and an invitation for further aggression is why you don't understand the UFP or Star Trek in general. Thanks for playing.

>>49857238
>>49857303

Punishment? Fuck punishment. Punishment is stupid.
I just want to make sure the message rings loud and clear across the stars: fuck with us, and we're going to fucking make sure you can't do it again. Just ask the old gray Klingons why 100+ years on, they still remember the name James Tiberius Kirk and raise a glass of bloodwine in bitter acknowledgement of the assbeating he righteously laid upon them.

>>49857303
This must be what the junior lt. assigned to interrogate and debrief the failed Section 31 recruit foaming at the mouth about being a hard man protecting the Federation must feel like.

Waste reclamation is starting to sound good.

>>49857317

And you don't think "The Cardassians fought a 10 year war against the Federation trying to gain new territory for itself and after the expenditure of a massive amount of lives and ships gained nothing," is not a sufficient message? You have to go cripple their industry or take their territory or what the fuck ever you define as "sending a message?"

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>>49857331
Please don't make me puke by mentioning those fuckers.

Section 31 are the guys who just get hard at the thought of going off all the rails and cutting loose. They're the guys who, if they had their way, would deploy the Genesis Device as a worldbuster, who'd cheerfully use biological weapons and worse.

We don't need them. You know what we need? Pic related. Phasers and Quantum Torpedoes; forget the dagger in the dark. It may get results, but it's not worth it, I'd rather wield the olive branch and the sword together; offer the first, but never surrender the second.

Yes.

We have thing.
They want thing.
Their answer to this is not to negotiate but to try and forcibly take thing.
They have some of thing taken off them as consequence.

Sounds perfectly logical to me.

>>49857376
>Genesis Device as a worldbuster, who'd cheerfully use biological weapons and worse.

You are saying that as if it was a bad thing.

>>49857359
Clearly, it was NOT a sufficient message, because they DID gain new territory for themselves. And don't try any of that limp-dick "But they gave up territory too!" bullshit. It doesn't fly.

Taking the homes from Cardassian settlers was as much a betrayal of the UFP's principles as selling the homes out from under the UFP's citizens was. Leaving the Cardassian Union with the military might to continually build YET MORE WARSHIPS, to continue to threaten Federation and other civilians, was a shit icing on a ten-layer shit-and-shinola smörgåstårta.

>>49857124
>Unless there are large news blackouts from the fringe of UFP. You should be getting news of colonies every few months being eaten by Borg or giant snowflakes?
People with a pioneer mindset think the risk is worth the potential reward. Sure, some colonies die (and not even literally). But others prosper, for whatever degree and sort of prosperity they're looking for. There's probably dozens of colony worlds that are just fine for every one that gets rekt.

>>49857405

>Leaving the Cardassian Union with the military might to continually build YET MORE WARSHIPS, to continue to threaten Federation and other civilians, was a shit icing on a ten-layer shit-and-shinola smörgåstårta.

And yet...they didn't. They ended up a disarmed ally of the federation as the federation left them to deal with the fallout of an economy that's been so heavily based on the military for 10 years that tried to enter peace. The only cardassians still fighting the federation are terrorists.

>>49857433

You're either smoking the GOOD STUFF, in which case, pass me the peace pipe; or you're living in an alternate universe where the Federation-Cardassian War ended much better than it did in the Prime timeline, in which case, can I phase-shift to your universe; or you're speaking from a post-Dominion-War standpoint, in which case I say, we're discussing history here, not current events.

>>49857405

You're right, taking the homes from their own citizens and in turn taking homes from other people's citizens was a compromise of Federation principals. By everything the Federation holds dear, both those things were wrong.

You know what a BIGGER betrayal of their beliefs would be? Sustaining a war and spending more lives, both on their side and the enemy's side, pressing into their territory in order to deal collateral damage to their industrial capacity in order to damage their ability to wage war when they could have ended the war with a simple exchange of land.

Whether you think that's the lesser evil is irrelevant. That's not how the UFP thinks. Lives come first for them. Not theoretical lives in a theoretical future war that may come in ten years if they don't go further right now. Actual lives in this current war right now.

>>49857484
I just assumed the Federation had been castrated. I hadn't realized they were also short sighted.

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>>49857484
>Lives come first for them.
Which would be why Jean-Luc Picard sided with Admiral Dougherty and the Son'a and forcibly relocated the Bak'u so their world could be rendered a radioactive hellhole and that glorious fountain-of-youth energy could be collected, right?

Oh, no, that other thing.

>>49857505
It took awhile and seeing James Kirk die for Baldy to find his testicles again and stand up for the principles the UFP was founded on, but he got there in the end.

>>49857505
>person who has never been remotely close to anything resembling conflict shitting on a sovereign nation because they don't want to fight wars they don't have to.

>>49857505

Keep throwing your fucking stones about how ball-less and dumb Starfleet was for doing whatever it took to stop the bloodshed and horror after 10 years of Space Vietnam. Fucking Armchair Monday Morning QBs...

>>49857522

>implying that the only reason Picard gave a shit about the Baku wasn't that a hot milf wanted his cock

He certainly wasn't taking his pips off those Indians he had to do the exact same thing with.

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>>49857543
>>49857544
It wouldn't have been Space Vietnam if the Federation hadn't limp-dicked it and tried to fight a warmongering power with a half-hearted, intentionally-castrated fleet.

You see this?

This is what they manufactured back in Kirk's day, because they knew that a day would come when all the peaceful intentions in the galaxy wouldn't turn away wrath, and the Federation would again have no recourse but phasers and photon torpedoes.

Well, that day came, and when it did, the Federation didn't have the stomach to use phasers and photon torpedoes in sufficient quantity. They tried to win a war with "minimum force," and what they got was a long, protracted campaign where their big explorers, all alone, fought like lions but were outnumbered by unworthy, backwards but purpose-built warships, and they lost far more of them than they should have.

>>49857579
Or, by the time he was sitting on the bridge of the Enterprise-E, he was disgusted with the actions he had taken last time, and had finally found the resolve to do what he should have done then.

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>>49857376
>Section 31
>Not needing them
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Anon, how new are you? Everyone needs spooks to counter the other guys spooks so you don't spies in your backyard. And when you do that's when you send a Trojan horse in to poison with plague their whole upper management. And just stronger ships won't safe guard your space empire, you also need to be able to use ruthless tactics at times, too.
>pic related is better ship than that for firepower.

>>49857649
Section 31 sure countered the threat of Changeling infiltrators, didn't they!?

Oh wait, no, that was Starfleet, too.

>>49857649

>Everyone needs spooks to counter the other guys spooks so you don't spies in your backyard.

That's what Starfleet Intelligence is for. They don't really need another, more secret version of that existing that they have no control over.

>>49857649

Starfleet Intelligence is the Federation's spooks, and they're very good.

Section 31 are horrible amoral criminals and the entire point of their existence in DS9 was to show that looking the other way while they do dirty work just because that dirty work forwards your interests is wrong. Odo basically say that in those exact words. Bashir wavered on that point one time out of all the 31 storylines, and then he found out that they'd attempted genocide, and I'm guessing that guilt over that is why he almost killed himself trying to get 31's secrets out of Sloan's brain.

Anyone have that picture of the Starfleet Academy girls having a pillow fight? I need it for scientific research on interspecies relations and how they're affected by long term cohabitation

>>49857670
>>49857705
Fucking preach it, Anons.

Starfleet Intelligence are spooks who do spookery, counterspooker, and counter-counterspookery.
Section 31 are a pack of war criminals who all need to be thrown in a super-ethical prison camp for the rest of their lives. There should be an empty bunk in that prison camp, permanently reserved for Captain Benjaman Sisko.

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>>49857752
>Captain Benjaman Sisko
>Fuck You
He's too bad ass for that and chilling with the worm hole aliens at the moment anyway. So you need to find his ass first to throw him in jail.

>>49857752
If that bunk should be reserved for any Starfleet officer then it should be reserved for Janeway.

>>49857842
Hence "permanently reserved."

>>49857858
No, anon. The UFP imprisons the criminally culpable.
We sent the mentally impaired to receive medical treatment. The Sisko goes to prison, Janeway goes to the funny farm.

>>49857870
>criminally culpable
>Sisko
>mentally impaired
>Janeway
So anon are you trying to be racist and sexist at the same time? By saying a black man should be put in jail and that woman is responsible for her actions because since she is a woman she must be crazy? Hmm.....................

>>49857944
*isn't>is

>>49857944
The Sisko knowingly deployed biological weapons. He knew what he was doing, he was just achieving a state of ubersaltiness because Eddington was being a HARD MAN making HARD DECISIONS and he felt the need to prove he was harder and more decisive.

Janeway is just fucking bipolar.

>>49857989
I bet Kasidy Yates knows how hard he can be

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>>49857989
Sometimes I've wondered if other captains have contradicted themselves to the degree that Janeway did, just because the writers weren't communicating well or had conflicting ideas. I guess Kirk has more Prime Directive violations under his belt than Janeway, even during the episode where they first explain what the Prime Directive is, but then again, Kirk never really goes out of his way to uphold the Prime Directive either, so he's consistently flippant instead of alternatingly flippant and smugly strict.

>>49858054
Kirk's violations were as a direct result of someone fucking with the Prime Directive first 9 times out of 10. Janeway was written by a bullpen that didn't have a strong hand on the writers. I think Voyager is actually worse than Enterprise, because at least the latter wasn't produced concurrently with a show with stronger writing.

In other news, I'm watching DS9's first Maquis episodes, and this Vulcan girl is maximum QT.

>>49857752

I'm willing to give Sisko some leeway for the ethically shady choices he makes, like the Trilithium Resin thing with Eddington or In The Pale Moonlight, because those decisions are the exceptions, and reserved for the most desperate circumstances. With the Romulans, the entire Alpha Quadrant was at stake, and with Eddington the bioweapons he actually deployed and the quantity of them he had to further deploy (not to mention that in the same incident he crippled a Federation Starship and shot down a escape ship full of helpless refugees) made him an intolerable threat. I'm sure there are other examples, but the point is Sisko only pushes that moral event horizon in situations where he has no other options.

31 has no morals, they violate everything the Federation believes in as a matter of course, to use Bashir's words. There's a world of difference between an agenda which may sometimes requires a compromise of integrity and an agenda which demands a consistent lack of integrity as an integral part of its advancement.

I started rewatching tng on Netflix this week, just finished season 1. So who was fucking with the feds and romulans shit on either side of the neutral zone? The Borg? The crystalline entity?

>>49858054

Janeway's inconsistent approach to Federation morals and ethics and laws would have been great on a show that was better written. It makes sense for a ship that's isolated in unknown and hostile space with no hope of support from home and no higher authority to go to to occasionally have to compromise if not outright break their code.

There was an episode where the crew had to decide where to use Cardassian Mengela's medical research to save B'elanna from an alien parasite. Each side had their own say on whether it was right or not, including B'elanna herself who refused the treatment. Janeway cut through all that shit and determined that, as a simple matter of practical survival needs, B'elanna as Chief Engineer was an unacceptable loss, and thus ordered the Doctor to use the information, and taking full responsibility for any fallout from that choice upon herself.

That's a fucking Captain making a tough choice for the right reasons right there. If she were always written that well Voyager would have been a much better show.

>>49858123
Section 31 makes a (twisted) amount of sense in the Federation's early days. The alliances were too new to allow the kind of black ops the Federation would need at the time. The problem is that the agency has spent two centuries with no oversight, and has too broad of a mandate. SIC does their job better. I've always headcanoned that the Maquis were funded by them, because it's just so obvious it's something Section 31 would do.

>>49858162
It is indeed the Borg, though they were originally supposed to tie into the Parasites from Conspiracy, and be bug monsters.

>>49858162

Stay tuned and find out

Its implied to be the Borg later on even though it kind of doesn't make sense

Also sorry Season 1 is so shit. S2 gets better.

>>49858203

I follow your logic on 31 making sense in the Olden Days, but at the same time I don't really agree. I believe pretty fundamentally that governments and agencies as a whole ought never be permitted to violate their basic principals, mandates and codes.

Individuals can, to a point, be trusted to make those tough calls in case-by-case situations. Or perhaps more accurately, individuals within and organization can be forgiven for doing something they shouldn't have done after the fact, particularly if no harm was done. But when an organization AS A WHOLE has the power or right to just do anything "necessary," I feel like that's an unacceptable erosion of the ability of the The People to make that organization/agency/government accountable.

Racial Profiling is a rough example of what I mean. An individual cop who's job is to stop Criminal Type Y may, based on his experience or his instincts or statistics or whatever, be permitted to take the morally questionable action of targeting all members of Minority X for searches or questioning or whatever because they are most likely to be Criminal Type Y. Its acceptable because that individual officer is making an individual call, and there are controls and checks on that officer's behavior at the systemic level to apply consequences to its use if necessary. But when the entire police DEPARTMENT has a universal policy to ALL officers investigating Criminal Type Y to focus on Minority X, THEN you have a problem.

Does that make sense?

>>49858396
>>49858203
There's something that people ignore about Section 31. It answers to no one and doesn't receive orders even from the Federation council or president. Most people, even powerful Federation officials, don't even know it exists. And the post-scarcity nature of the Federation means that it doesn't need special government funding beyond what is available to all citizens. This means that Section 31 is not a governmental organization at all, but rather a very well-connected private club. It does not represent a state overreaching its power; it represents private citizens testing the limits of the liberty they were promised.

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>>49858587
>muh secret undercover superspy uniform
They presumably are also funded through an exclusive clothing shop of severely tailored black leather turtlenecks

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>>49858766
Turtlenecks and secret agents you say¿

>>49858587
>It answers to no one and doesn't receive orders even from the Federation council or president.
>No one knows about it.
IT WAS LITERALLY WRITTEN INTO EXISTANCE IN THE FUCKING UFP CHARTER!
This just make me think even more that all feds are idealist asshats and deserve everything they get by being ignorance fucks half the time. So the average UFP citizen is a self absorbed well educated idiot that expects rainbows and ponies most time, right?

>>49859248
Well considering they can make rainbows and unicorns with holodecks it's not a very unrealistic thing to expect, most of the time.

Are holodecks self cleaning, or is there some poor schmuck that has to clean out all the blood and other bodily fluids?

>>49859248
How many Americans have read the constitution?

Come to that I'm British and I've never read the Magna Carta.

It's not an excuse but it is an explanation.

>>49858216
S1 is far more tolerable since I have already seen it and know to skip the awful ones like Tasha fisticuffing space niggers, planet feminazi, and the one where Wesley should've been there executed (which would've been good if he'd died)

>>49859336

To be fair, the Magna Carta is not actually the law of the land in your country. Its just sort of the origin. Britain's constitution is unwritten, just like the Common Law.

>>49859248
The Federation Charter Article 14, Section 31 is a vaguely-worded clause about how the Federation reserves the right to take extraordinary measures to defend itself in emergencies. It did not specifically sanction a secret intelligence agency. The organization named itself after the article because that's how they justify their actions to themselves. The fact remains that they are not Starfleet intelligence and in fact not any kind of government agency at all. If anything it's a private paramilitary.

Well i was really happy to see these threads appearing so quickly - I thought it might be a resurgence in general interest in star trek - but no.

>>49860765
I would say that this thread shows a great deal of interest and enthusiasm in Star Trek.

>>49860190
If it's unwritten, how do you amend it? That's almost as wacky as the Common Law idea that every judge's corrupt or foolish decision should be preserved for eternity.

Did anyone sign up for the new game's "living playtest"?

>>49857752
Both Sisko and Section 31 used dark and shady tactics, but the difference between them is that Sisko only reached for that sword because he had no other weapons left (in the most famous case, Garak actually did it for him and told him about it after the fact). Section 31 covers itself in darkness, and it is also the first weapon they use.

>>49856206
I never liked this pasta.
Aside from the fact that the Menk "potato race" were a still evolving, likely younger species, they displayed a rapid learning reflex and a startling capacity to pick up language and extrapolate medical cataloguing skills without formal instruction.

The other species, the Valakians, being the Breen feels a bit forced. By the time of the Second Klingon Empire the Breen were a force that could obliterate a Klingon fleet and that would have been sometime during the late 21st to 22nd centuary by human reckoning.
The Valakians didn't even have warp technology by the time the NX Enterprise rolled by their planet, let alone evidence of advanced weaponry.
If you believe Legends of the Ferengi, the Breen were the race that sold the Ferengi warp technology in the first place, and the Ferengi wouldn't need to sell the Valakians that technology if they were the Breen.

The two Star Trek books concerned with the placement of planets and stellar boundaries between races/organizations (Star Trek: Star Charts & Stellar Cartography: The Starfleet Reference Library) both suggest that both Valakis and Breen are different planets, and in different quadrants even.

As for the Pakled, that "me not smart hur" ruse was just an act by a less advanced people to sponge better tech off of gullible/charitable races (probably scavenging a lot of stuff too) who thought that the Pakled were a pitiable lot. They're the Alpha Quadrants greatest moochers.

And it's Mr Freeze.

>>49860842
?? Details, anon, details.

>>49860959
http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html

>>49861127
Fuck it, I signed up. Thanks for the heads up. Worse comes to worst, I get a free game system. Best case scenario, I can convince my players to give it a one-shot.

>>49861202
which ship?

>>49861228
Venture, I think. The all around TNG era ship. Figured an all around ship would work best.

What is the point of the steamrunner? It doesn't pack a surprising punch like an Akira, and it isn't big enough to have room for lots of exploration/science equipment. Is it just some sort of patrol frigate?

>>49861645
It was an artillery ship in Star Trek Armada, where it fired some super torpedo that outranged every ship in the game. Since there's nothing like that in the series, and nothing was really explained about the class, that's all we have to go on. Also, there's nothing comparable in STO, and giving it an ability to hit someone at 15km would probably be a bit OP.

>>49861645
That's pretty much the case, I reckon: just a 24th-century Miranda-type ship.

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>>49861733
Nearly every ship.
But then, it was suggested the Romulans stole the specs for their tri-cobalt torpedoes from the federation in the game manual anyway.

>>49854739
>>49854754
Did the Chromatic Space Babes game ever go anywhere?

>>49861910
What Chromatic Space Babes game?

>>49860918
I didn't know it was pasta. I saw it posted on the thread before last and though it sounded entertaining as such things go.

Not did I know that all the other trivia surrounding it was wrong. And the Pak'led in that TNG episode were not smart. They fell for the most obvious ruse possible.

And in my defense Mr Freeze is is a Doctor.

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>>49861910
I miss those threads.

Big Dumb Purple was best girl.

>>49861937
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/41526857/

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/41547639/

>>49860765
Give it time, I'm sure we can get back to the mild enthusiasm of yore

>>49860502
Except they are backed by legitimate Admirals and Federation council members and routinely hold a Starfleet rank that can be verified if need be, such as when Sloan showed up wearing the pips and bar of a Fleet Captain and all his background checks came up green.

>>49861645
Heavy frigate or destroyer, probably for patrol and escort duty. Relatively small and cheap, but quick and decently armed. Remember that these designs popped up post-Wolf 359 when Starfleet suddenly lost 39 ships in one engagement and realized that they needed to modernize their shit and stop relying on century-old ships to pad out the fleet.

The Akira is basically an Excelsior replacement, the Steamrunner and Norway are Miranda replacements.

>>49861733
>>49861905
Every race basically had an artillery ship like that. I choose to believe that the Steamrunner (my favorite feddie ship) is a patrol frigate that was outfitted for extreme long-range combat in times of war.

It's also a sexy as fuck design.

>>49862024
Those Pak'led were ultimately out-rused, but they were clearly cunning and calculating, having deliberately programmed their ship to give off readings suggesting malfunctioning systems and feigning unfamiliarity with sophisticated systems as a ploy.
They had managed to accrue technology from several races including Romulans and Klingons,both dangerous races, and it took a literal corbomite maneuver to secure Geordi's release without armed conflict.
It was the Pak'led's unfamiliarity with advanced technology that was the key to outfoxing them.

Really, given the way the Enterprise crew treats the Pak'led based on external appearance alone, it was more surprising to see how prejudiced and superficial the Federation can be sometimes, for such an apparently altruistic organization. They fall for the Pak'led ruse all too easily.

Really though, the true blunder of the episode is where Wesley claims the Klingons had joined the Federation.

>And in my defense Mr Freeze is is a Doctor.
It's not like you wrote that piece yourself, I assume? So you've no need to defend yourself. If you did, I can see how it could be easy to confuse Mr freezes name up a bit anyway.

>>49862104
Did anything get settled ever? If I remember right people wanted a bridge crew game, an away mission focused game, and an MMA sim (which is fine, though I feel like it's kinda separate from the concept, even though there was that one episode of TOS with the brains and the quatloos).

>>49861733
Steamrunner is now available both on tier 1 and 5 in STO and it's just an escort there.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Blockade_Runner_Escort_Retrofit

Only thing special about it is that it comes in a bundle with the tier 1 version that has this thing on it.

http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Resonance_Cascade_Modulator

>>49862564
Only the Federation and Romulans had artillery ships, IIRC.

The Klingon and Borg vessels in the equivalent tech-tree slots (SuQ'Jagh-class and Assimilator) were armed with standard torpedoes and were concerned with assault and being skewed to direct crew attacks, either deploying troops in breaching pods as a special upgrade in the Klingons case, or utilizing an assimilation beam to beam enemy vessels crew away and them to the player crew pool,

I guess you could use the Fek'lhr's ion-storm attack in a similar way, but it's a bit costly.

>>49862880
Nope. The Chuq'Beh (Klink), Legate (Cardie), Launcher (8472), and Harbinger (Borg) all existed. Every race was a functional mirror in Armada 2, up until the spells. Also every race had an assault ship like you mentioned (for example, the Fed one was the Iwo Jima, I believe).

>>49862958
I had somehow forgotten the Armada II existed, nor played it. You'll have my resignation on your desk by the morning, sir.

>>49863042
Haha, not a worry. You're a fine officer, no need to resign from the service over a minor mistake. Besides, it isn't like you are challenging the very base principles of Starfleet on a constant basis.

>>49863042
Look up Armada 3, and rejoice.the modern have saved us

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>>49863086
>Besides, it isn't like you are challenging the very base principles of Starfleet on a constant basis
I was actually a Romulan spy all along.

>>49863098
As the guy with the Armada 2 knowledge, I'm aware of A3 (via this very general in fact) and play it regularly. In fact, I've got a massive game going right now to exterminate the Borg as Cardassians. It isn't going well.

>>49863223
It never does

>>49862708
>Pak'led
I wonder if some race fell for the ruse and didn't take kindly to this shit and as a race as a whole got wiped out totally. Would the Feds even give a shit? And if some escaped and there was a bounty on them. Would you turn in the poor fucks for the cash if you came across them? What if they had been stupid fucks to and try to scam you before, what then?
If that race went the way of the Dodo I wouldn't shed a tear.

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>>49863640
This. It's like early TNG Ferangi.

They are presented with no redeeming features that we get to see to such a degree that you wonder how they survived the Klingons.

The Federation yes. They are all about meekness to a slightly suspect degree.

Romulans maybe. They would get fooled once, destroy the offending ships and then refuse to even pick up the phone in subsequent encounters because they are introverted and paranoid fucks.

Klingons? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh fuck no. These are the nutters that exterminated the tribbles because one of them squeaked at an inopportune moment and those things weren't even sapient. A sapient race fucking over klingons because it made a conscious to be a cunt is not going to live very long.

Klingons feel generous and beam over a tech guy who has been annoying the captain lately, Pak'led take him hostage and demand shit and then they die and then a report gets filed and then the screaming and the burning and burying Potato men in mass graves starts.

But the same could be said for the early TNG Ferangi.

>>49863779
>TNG Ferangi.
Actually in TNG at least, those guys were always shown if they had a ship as total scamming cunts. ALWAYS! If one at a time then that was an outlier and could actually be cool. But Ferangi in groups will always be backstabbing cunts. Even alone they could still be greedy cunts but they have to at least be somewhat smart about it or Klingons would beat them to death with one of their own arms.

>>49863779
> Klingons? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh fuck no. These are the nutters that exterminated the tribbles because one of them squeaked at an inopportune moment and those things weren't even sapient.

Tribbles kind of are an ecological menace anywhere except an absolute Death World where hungry predators come along every five minutes...

> A sapient race fucking over klingons because it made a conscious to be a cunt is not going to live very long.
Not even Klingons exterminate whole sapient races because SOME of them made the decision to be assbutts. They would, however, make a habit of hunting down and disruptorinating Pak'led thieves.

>>49863640
It's bound to happen sometimes, but the ships the Pak'led use could probably defend themselves in a certain amount of conflict. Bear in mind that they appear in the background in DS9 from time to time as visiting aliens. they're more a nuisance than a threat.

>>49863779
>The Federation yes. They are all about meekness to a slightly suspect degree.
They barely even bothered to help the Pak'led when the Enterprise encountered them, even unaware of the true nature of their solicitors.

>Romulans maybe.
They probably scavenged the Romulan tech (shields, I think) as the Romulans aren't really a charitable seeming people. If it did happen, who'd want to admit to it?

>>49863779
Klingons? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh fuck no. These are the nutters that exterminated the tribbles because one of them squeaked at an inopportune moment
The Klingon problem with the Tribbles was that the original Homeworld of the Tribble is a hell-hole that forced the species to be born pregnant to survive predation from other indigenous fauna. Remove the Tribble from it's natural environmental concerns, and give it access to a suitable food supply and you have the makings of an adorable foodstuff consuming scourge.

Bombarding the Tribble Homeworld was a service to the Galaxy.

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>>49864173
>Pak'led thieves.
>TFW that describes their whole culture as far as we know.
>Pak'led trader is the Klingon phrase for 'Target Practice'.
I would like to see some writer use these fucks in story where they are something besides 'Autism the race'. How do these guys even use warp tech without blowing themselves up half the time?

>>49863362
Holy shit, I managed it tonight. It was 3v1 (the Cardassian Union never shirks from having allies at its side) and I personally had to carve through 6 Cubes, as well as a Locutus, 2 7of9s, at least 2 Borg Queens, and a pair of Tactical Cubes, but I did it. I had to conquer half the map out from under my allies, mortgage the entire empire to the fleet capacity gods (maxed, natch), and swarm them with more ships than I've ever had at once (when you try to have fluff compliant fleets, you have a *lot* of Scarabs), but I did it. Also the AI allies are crap, they kept attacking a Borg death fleet (2 cubes, plus some other stuff) with like a Kulinor and two Janissaries. Morons.

Now, to see if I can do it with the Federation (in what I call a reverse Wolf 359). Probably gonna cry as my fleet of Mirandas and Excelsiors gets cut to fucking ribbons, but dammit I'm gonna try.

>>49864847
It's. All. A. Ruse.

They just can't be fucked to put in any work themselves.

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>>49865005
I'm kind of tempted to ask /tg/ to do a fan project of fleshing out the Pak'led race just because. See if we can make them more than 'Autism the race' but I'm not sure anyone gets enough of a shit about them to pitch in.
>TFW oh well.

>>49865943
"We look for relevance. Relevance to make us popular."

>>49865943
I think the original idea was to make a "don't judge a book by its cover" the race that would teach the crew to not be a bunch of judgmental shits, except some meddling came through the writers room and changed things because the crew can't ever be shown in a bad light like that and just made the race retarded thieves for the sake of a laugh, much like how all of Barclay's episodes that were to teach people about crippling Aspergers turned into everyone laughing at the weirdo for multiple episodes.

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>>49866227
>much like how all of Barclay's episodes that were to teach people about crippling Aspergers turned into everyone laughing at the weirdo for multiple episodes
Geordi's treatment of Barcley reminds me a lot of how 4chan treats our spergs.

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>>49856763
What the fuck did I just watch.

He actually had the body/face expression tics of Picard and Data down pretty well there, too.

>>49866581
Yeah, this was the good thing. It's a lot funnier when he's accurate than when he does "lol i braek cahrectr"

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>>49864918
So, pic related is how the Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance is going against the Borg. If you're not used to Sins, it's not gonna mean much, but if you are, you can see how things are faring. For the record, at this point I've already lost 2 fleets, with attached capital ships (an Ambassador and a Galaxy with refit), to the Borg. Man, fuuuuck the Borg.

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>>49864847
>Grebnedlog
>Goldenberg

GOD DAMMIT, THEY'RE BACKWARDS JEWS!

Would it be fair to say that, out of the three primary alpha quadrant powers, the Romulans are the least well-equipped to deal with the Borg?

>>49867309
I don't think they're as insomuch ill equipped, it's that they don't see them so much a threat but more of an opportunity for research and advancements. If that means they lose an outpost or two in such an endeavor then so be it.

>>49867309

I can see the Romulans being adept at finding a hard counter to the Borg, then smugly deploying it. But in their current incarnation (for all values of "current"), yeah, as soon as Borg laughed their way through cloaking tech the fleet would pop like a balloon.

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>open some infinity boxes
>oh yah dat boff skills box
>accidentally Kemocite III

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>>49866385
>Barclay
>TFW the only people who really want to be your friend are stuck 65,000 year lights away.
I really feel sorry for that poor fuck sometimes. He really just wanted to be liked and the only people that like him are on the other side of the galaxy.

>>49867309
The Romulans constantly end up trying to make deals and alliances with the Borg in expanded material, to the point where one group of Tal Shiar get the Borg to reanimate Kirk with all the powers of Mary Sue.

>>49868623
Any kind of deal with the Borg is insane. Any kind of deal with them BEYOND momentary, teeth-clenched teamwork in the face of a Bigger Fish is absurdly suicidal to the point of comedy.

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Shit, we're deep into autosage territory!

All hands, abandon thread! All hands -!

>>49869089
Goddamnit, I am just a red hot fucking mess!

>>49869071 New thread!