Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

First for the Mantid did everything wrong

>>48483207
Starting with being drawn like >>48483186. Weird bug creatures have no business having human-like hands.

>>48483207
go away Lei Shen, this is an Old God thread

My first impression of WoW: I feel too strong for a "Low level" guy.

>>48483240
post-Cata? Skill rebalances over the years have made low level characters far too strong. It's supposedly getting fixed during Legion or in the expansion after

>>48483231
t. Cho'gall

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>>48483240

Your character is the center of the universe and everything happens because of you.

except that everyone has the same real impact in the world: 0

>>48483292
Did I miss it, or did WoD ever explain the Pale Orcs and just what Cho'Gall was up to when he betrayed Gul'dan at Oshu'gun?

>>48483292
>not embracing the coming of Twilight
>being a pathetic alien robot instead of ascending to a glorious elemental state to rule the world when the Old Masters return

>>48483354
it's void energy we ain't gotta explain shit
-Blizzard

basically he's butthurt at Imperator Mar'gok for reasons that are never explained so he joins the Shadow Council to gain power and attempt to attack Highmaul, and when he thinks he's ready he betrays Gul'dan to do so

>>48483399
I always wanted to know what created the Pale Orcs and what Cho's end game was. Just sorta felt dropped. I know he pops up to replace Mar'gok as the boss of Mythic Highmaul, but that really doesn't explain anything.
Typical Blizzard. Probably had a plot line for him that got cut along with half the rest of the content of the expansion.

>>48483355
>Embracing the coming of twilight
>Wanting the world to revert to its savage, primordial state where only Trolls and wild animals could survive
>Implying you'll ascend and not just be a sacrifice or the midnight snack of a faceless

>>48483296
I fucking hate this in MMOs. I KNOW that I am not unique and there are many other players. Seriously, that destroys my immersion.

>>48483441
I imagine his end game was some combination of killing everything, getting more power, screaming his attacks very loudly, and getting a new model. Probably in that order.

>>48483286
If Legion is supposed to fix that i'm assuming it's going to happen after launch. because at the moment my level 48 shaman is death incarnate.

>>48483399
>Cho: Ve're nihilists, Mar'gokowsky.

>Gall: Ve belief in *nothing*!

>Both: If you don't give us Highmaul ven ve come back, ve'll cut off your chonson!

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Who is best orc and why is it Gul'dan?

>>48483537
it will be, IIRC they're testing applying Broken Isles level scaling to earlier content to make leveling feel more challenging and less boring

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>>48483564
>level scaling

>>48483540
>they pissed on my abrogator stones maaaan
>they really tied the whole empire together

>>48483564
They need to un-nerf Murlocs. Give them their huge Vanilla aggro radius and make them flee into more Murlocs, and even more Murlocs until you're you're completely enveloped in MMMRRGGRGLGL

>>48483602
better than two-shotting everything until Pandaria in the same zones over and over every time you make an alt

>>48483611
Fun fact: Low level healers that stand in a middle of a murloc 'nest' will kill murlocs roughly as fast as they respawn, and not die because of their mana regen and self heals.

t. spent 15 minutes before i gave up and ran away

>>48483354
Am i the only one that is reminded of pale orcs when watching gul'dan's new story? Both backgrounds involve failing at the throne of the elements and being crippled

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>>48482142
>CITIZENS OF DALARAN

>>48483639
Now, maybe. Playing a clothie in Vanilla, they were the bane of my existence. I was a Warlock, and I had no reliable CC against too many of them. A Fear would just send it running into more. And I couldn't do anything to drop them fleeing in terror into more of their allies. Was a sad game of tagging one on the periphery of their village and trying to pull him away for the kill, rinse, repeat, and hope I don't have a quest objective to recover from the middle of the nest.

>>48483647
I didn't think of it when I watched it, but it makes sense now that you mention it. When he's wandering around he's even all skinny like the Pale

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>>48483355
>>48483292
>>48483558
>Old gods
>Burning legion
>Memedins (probably)

STOP RIGHT FUCKING THERE.

>>48483540
This made me laugh more than it had any right to.

So I have not played Legion beta at all and I know each class gets some kind of legion nemesis.

What does the Hunter Campaign involve doing? I know houndmaster Hakkar is their Nemesis.

And I know Warriors unite the Titanic watchers, but who is their Nemesis?

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>>48484054
A what?

>the Nerubians dug a vast empire underneath the icy wastes of Northrend with architecture unmatched by any race to come since
>the mantid are masters of certain technical disciplines and have martial prowess to stand against and even threaten the strongest Titanforged race
>the Silithid are barely conscious animals useless as anything but cannon fodder

was C'thun even trying?

>>48484054
y-yes s-sir Officer Mograine, sir

>>48484302
C'thuns bug people were the Qiraj.

Silithid were slave beasts.

Also, the Nerubians turned against Old God worship.

>>48484111
I've not heard of this, it sounds interesting though.

>>48484302
C'thun was the one who originally created the aqir out of the primordial silithid. Ot was the Aqir who would conquer most of ancient Kalimdor. Then the trolls wrecked their shit and they split into different types. The Aqir in the north became the Nerubians. Others got trapped in China and became the Mantid, the rest went south and sacked the Titan research station in Uldum and became the Qiraji, who hung out down there worshipping old C'thun. If

Does anyone secretly wish for a WoW2?

>>48484442
I'd rather have WC4.

>>48484442
I dream an impossible dream of WoW2 coming out and retconning everything from Cataclysm onwards as non-canon. Starting where WotLK left off lore-wise

Also, you can go to Kul Tiras and the Horde is still weaker than the Alliance

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>>48484468
>and the Horde is still weaker than the Alliance

Started off subtle but ya blew it here, lad.

>>48484468
>Horde weaker than the Alliance

I think you're sort of confused about strength here.

What the Horde lack in numbers, especially Vanilla wow Horde, they made up for in great personal strength.

Remember, in lore, Tauren are strong enough to wreck steamtanks with logs.

>>48484302
The Quiraji had a vast empire encompassing most of southern kalimdor and fought the night elves, arguably the most powerful force in the world at the time, to a standstill

>>48484455
>Starring: Anduin the sixty year old, Tyrande, Fenran, Thralls kid,

>>48484442
I think at this point, the cracks in the engine are getting a little too large. If WoW 2 ever happened, it'd just be a new engine.

>>48484533
>And Magi "Diamond is Unbreakable" Bronzebeard

>>48484533
>The tutorial is against Tyrande. It teaches you about garrisoning buildings against an archer rush.

>>48484533

>grandpa anduin

might be cool

>fenran

nigga's name is dagran ii thaurissan

>tyrande

god no, dude

>thrall's kid

nigga's name is durak

>>48484468
Please and thank you

Cataclysm and WoD were mistakes
Even pandaria is iffy

Give back BC talent trees plz

What comes after legion? There are rumors that there will be a huge timeskip.

>>48484514
In the lore, Malfurion can solo the Horde. So can Velen. At this point, so could Jaina. In the lore, Ironforge can out manufacture the Horde by itself.
Tauren are tough individually, but there are so few of them that they couldn't even beat the fucking Quillboars without the Orc's help.
The only reason the Horde still exists is pure plot armor.

>>48484596
Has there ever been an instance outside of his sacrifice in WoD where Velen has demonstrated his power? I've seen this mentioned a lot but I don't know the basis that backs it up.

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>>48484596

>alliance has all these living god characters that they acknowledge as being OP as fuck
>people go ape shit and bitch about thrall getting a power up and evening the score ever so slightly
>mfw

>>48484617
Velen is a Prophet figure, he has Amazingly strong farseeing powers but he's never shown anything that resembles shooting laser beams to kill people.

>>48484617

Nope.

Even in the Rise of the Horde novel, he lets himself get captured and made prisoner.

>>48484617
Because gameplay and game story has to remain balanced, they don't show anytthing. By Blizzard's fluff, he was on the level of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden and only got stronger when he accepted the Light. They built him up as a living superweapon, but then stuck him in the bottom of his city with his thumb up his ass for the past 10 years.

>>48484596
>Talks about Plot Armour
>Stormwind literally sprang up as a major superpower to rival Orgrimmar overnight.

Orgrimmar was built my almost all of the Orcish race banded together, yet Stormwind was such a desolate ruin the surviving people fled to Lordaeron THAT WAS IN TURN destroyed and then fled to Theramore.

So you want to talk about plot armour, explain Stormwind.

>>48484625
>defending Green Jesus
Metzen pls go and stay go.

>>48484658
>They built him up as a living superweapon

No they fucking didn't you rabid retard.

He's called PROPHET VELEN. He is a Moses figure not a fucking weapon to surpass metal gear.

He's shown in WoD and Legion to be extremely powerful in the Light. That doesn't always mean calling down laserbeams from the sky.

>>48484544
I'd hope a WoW 2 would be an entirely different game with entirely different systems and gameplay... but I think you're right, closest we'll likely get to WoW 2 will be some brand new revamped engine or something.

I just want a brand new MMO set in the warcraft universe and also a fresh start.

>>48484596
Velen is not the good equivalent of Archimonde in terms of power. He's just old and wise.

Now Malfurion is literally Goku or some shit.

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>>48484661

bruh, it's worse than rivaling orgrimmar

stormwind has overtaken fucking IRONFORGE

you know, ironforge? like the oldest capital city in the game and its never fallen in all its history? heart of industry in the alliance, possibly all of azeroth?

yeah, stormwind has somehow surpassed that juggernaut of a city because humans

humans are the ultimate mary sues of warcraft

>>48484675

not defending thrall in the slightest, just pointing out some hilarious hypocrisy

>>48484690
Okay, same guy that asked about Velen.

When has Malfurion demonstrated his potency? Blowing up Archimonde seemed to be less him and more "I have a plan", I guess he helped when Ragnaros invaded Hyjal? Most of WC3 is him shitting his pants and communing with nature when something bad happens somewhere as I recall?

>>48484661
They rebuilt Stormwind after winning the Second War. It had been being rebuilt since before Thrall had even escaped Durnholde.
It was only Lordaeron that got wrecked by the Scourge.

>>48484661
>the surviving people fled to Lordaeron THAT WAS IN TURN destroyed and then became the Forsaken
FTFY

>>48484717
>Stormwind was rebuild after the second war

So the Horde just went AROUND the Human kingdom that was rebuilding on their doorstep?

Oh wait no, It's a stupid as fuck retcon.

>>48484716

people just assume malfurion is godmode despite the fact that a few magically-empowered orcs killed his teacher (and superior as far as power levels are concerned)

>>48484716
Malfurion is pretty much "best Druid" like many of the classes, this makes his power level stupidly high.

Highest power level dude however right now is Magni bronzebeard because he's the voice of Azeroth.

That trumps "Guy who talks to the nature of Azeroth" and "Guy who talks to the elements of Azeroth" by a country mile.

>>48484661
>>48484695
Kul'Tiras was untouched by the orcs and single-handedly stopped the horde's attempt at a navy, prospered and received human refugees from everywhere since the beggining of the franchise, AND ITS NOT EVEN IN THE GAME

>>48484746
Yeah, Cenarius not only is the literal creator of druidism, he's also the favoured child of Elune.

>>48484716
Malfurion defeated Azshara in a world-shattering battle.

What did Velen ever do? People just assume he's mega powerful cause he was Archie and Kil'jaeden's bro back before they joined the legion.
He's probably powerful but not their equivalent anymore.

>>48484751
Even Alliance fans like myself admit Stormwind is the most mary sue asspull in the entire lore.

I mean fuck me, Stromgarde is basically a ruin and the Scourge didn't even hit it yet Stormwind is suddenly THE HEART AND JEWEL OF THE ALLIANCE

>>48484735

here's what happened

>stormwind gets shrekt, ending the first war. rapefugees from stormwind arrive on boats in lordaeron
>second war ends, stormwind is reclaimed. stormwind rapefugees return home.
>reconstruction begins on stormwind using funds from the member-states of the alliance (lordaeron, ironforge, etc) immediately after the second war has ended
>beyond the dark portal happens, stormwind is fine
>third war happens, stormwind just chills in the background
>wow happens, stormwind the strongest human nation remaining and somehow in charge of the alliance even though ironforge or theramore should technically be in charge

>>48484791
>In a worldshattering battle

Nigga, that battle was to stop Darkshore becoming even-less-Darkshore.

>>48484807
What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the War of the Ancients where they blew up the fucking well of eternity

>>48484791

>malfurion defeated azshara

so did i with four other players

not a big deal

>>48484805
>Nothing mentioned at all in Warcraft 3.
>Blackrock Clan so strong they push into lordaeron still.
>Nothing mentioned at the end of Warcraft 2, with Lothar the Lion of stormwind dead.
>Uther stays in Lordaeron instead of heading back to Stormwind for some reason

Stormwind is literally an Asspull.

>>48484846
>Only Malfurion blew up the well

Yeah, no.

>>48484805
>>beyond the dark portal happens, stormwind is fine
in the game Stormwind and Dalaran both get shrekt again but the book retconned it so that Teron Gorefiend and Deathwing just sneak around being dickass thieves instead

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>http://wow.gamepedia.com/Queen_Azshara_(tactics)

not even the final boss of a 5 man dungeon

JUST

>>48484869
Well yeah, him and Azshara.
Sure i guess it was more "unstable" due to the whole summoning Sargeras thing or whatever.

>>48484911
Good ole Teron Gorefiend. Death Knight of the year all years.

This came up a couple of threads ago, hoping someone can enlighten me. Teron Gorefiend was the first Death Knight, made by Gul'Dan. What distinguishes him from the Death Knights in the service of the Scourge, and the Ebon Blade? Is it nothing beyond "magic invested in body and adding soul to body"? Are their similarities non-existent beyond names?

>>48485139
1st gen Death Knights were souls of Orc Warlocks in fallen Human bodies
2nd gen Death Knights were mostly Human paladins who lost their soul to their own vampiric Runeblades, like Arthas.
3rd gen Death Knights were manufactured in Acherus and were just Undead Shock Troopers.

>>48485139

Not too many differences. The first-gen DK's are the souls of orc warlocks in the bodies of human knights. They used a combination of standard necromancy and crazy shadow Warlock magic. Also, their souls were placed inside gems that were then placed inside maces/truncheons/etc. That "soul gem" is what kept their spirits anchored to their new bodies.

Also, some of the first-gen DKs that survived became liches and eventually wound up in service to the Scourge anyways.

>>48485208
It's worth noting that first gen Death Knights are heavy on the casting, light on the melee-- pretty much the reverse second-gen onward Death Knights. DKs in the Second war share a lot in common with Necrolytes from the First, and probably some of them are the same people. They're more like mounted necromancers than anything-- are are very similar to liches, who are largely also former orc spellcasters. Though liches also have frost in their arsenal after being empowered by Ner'zhul in Icecrown, their signature technique, Death and Decay, was originally a Second War DK spell.

Actually giving them the same name was probably a mistake.

>>48485377
>very similar to liches
most of the original liches were death knights, except for Kel'thuzad obviously (even though he is the only human with an apostrophe in his name)

>>48485208
>>48485255
I see, so there's nothing inherently Scourge-based in them? A Death Knight is just a soul anchored in a body. Thanks for clarifying Anons, it'd been bugging me.

Where do Runeblades come from then? I've onyl heard of them with Scourge connotations.

>>48484805
Obviously its the strongest human nation in the world. Like you said, it pretty much did nothing for two games while everybody else was getting devastated. And why the hell would Theramore be in charge? Its a small Lordaeron remnant far away from the center of the alliance.

The main reason why Stormwind was in charge instead of Ironforge is probally because humans are still the majority in the alliance.

>>48485398
>A Death Knight is just a soul anchored in a body.
first gen DKs are, second gen DKs usually have no soul at all, or their soul is trapped in their runeblade. Runeblades are generally made by smiths working for the Scourge, generally vrykul because they're knowledgeable in rune magic

>>48485402
Stormwind was asspulled. It was heavy implied that it was in ruins before wow, they just made up defiance and all that as an excuse.

It was made to balance the world, making a 3v1 in each continent

>>48485449
I see, cheers anon.

Did Blizzard explain why are the kaldorei in the Alliance?

>>48484851
Do you need to have everything spelled out to you? Just because Stormwind wasn't mentioned in Warcraft 3 doesn't mean the whole place just disappeared. Even Beyond the Dark Portal showed they were busy rebuilding the place.

Also that wasn't the same Blackrock Clan that we have in Wow. It was just a small remnant of the second war Horde invasion fleet still hanging out in Lordaeron.

>>48484658
>By Blizzard's fluff, he was on the level of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden

Roughly, but he didn't get remade as a master of the Burning Legion, he ran away and got zen.

>>48485395
I didn't think that was the case. We're the liches originally mortal warlocks who got captured by demons along with Ner'zhul when they tried to flee Draenor's collapse only to end up in the twisting nether rather than somewhere safe? The impression I got from the WC3 manual was that they got disembodied, tortured a bunch, and then shoved into new, artificial bodies-- a process similar to DKs, but not the same, and not done to the same people.

>>48485459
I played Warcraft 3. And i don't ever remember it being implied that the whole place was just a ruin. Like i said in a different post. Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean the whole place just disappeared.

>>48485519
>We're the liches originally mortal warlocks who got captured by demons along with Ner'zhul when they tried to flee Draenor's collapse only to end up in the twisting nether rather than somewhere safe?
unless the lore changed or I read it terribly wrong, they were

>>48484746
During the WotA trilogy (I know, I know, Knaak and time travel) he summons a hurricane of sufficient strength that it threatens to destroy both armies on the field (or at least Azeroth's).

Reminder that Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken, now and forever.

>>48484805
if you think about it, wow is actually very post apocalyptic for the all the wow races.
>loderon fucked
>stormind fucked, rebuilt, and fucked again
>stromgarde fucked
>stratholm fucked
>Quel'Thalas fucked
>gnomregen fucked
>draenei still fucked as usual
>orcs fucked by demons
>dark portal DESTROYED the planet draenor
>highborn elfs fucked by demons and became naga, night elfs, and high elfs
>dark portal destroys the black morass, creating the blasted lands where even the draenei become mutated
>titans came and went, leaving behind their empire
>drakkari empire fucked
>gurubashi empire fucked
>horde and alliance still at war for no raisin
>hordes of howling demons vivisecting people any chance they get
>hordes of extra evil undead massing in a far off land, preparing to invade

>>48484794
Stromgarde's destruction was much more recent; Stormwind had more time to rebuild than them.

It would probably be rebuilt by now, but then the Forsaken happened.

>>48484518
By the time of the War of the Shifting Sands, the Qiraji were just in Ahn'qiraj. And the night elves were no longer an empire, though they were the dominant force in Kalimdor.

>>48485645
>Dread Wastes so corrupted by the sha that everything is grey and black except for the mantid and saurok

>>48485476
For the same reason Forsaken are in the Horde:

Nelves were too important to not be playable race, and there was nowhere else to put them with their two-faction PvP model.

After that, they needed one race of their respective factions on the continent dominated by the other faction (nelves on Kalimdor with the Horde, Forsaken in Easter Kingdoms with the Alliance) for balance reasons. No idea why they haven't go with Ogres in Alterac instead of Forsaken, would've made more sense, IMO

Where is the difference between Stormwind and Kul'Tiras? Culture etc

>>48485550
He's just a butt-blasted horde kiddy. Don't waste your time.

>>48486133
Kul'tiras is a lot more sea-oriented. Think Victorian London vs. somewhere in Germany or France

>>48485402
>>And why the hell would Theramore be in charge? Its a small Lordaeron remnant far away from the center of the alliance.

Dude, prior to WoW, Theramore WAS the center of the Alliance. It was right at the forefront of the Third War, its people taking part at the battle of Mount Hyjal. It had the closest diplomatic ties to the Horde and was the only Alliance nation to have contact with the night elves. It knew the truth of Third War, the Scourge, Arthas, Quel'Thalas, etc.

>>The main reason why Stormwind was in charge instead of Ironforge is probally because humans are still the majority in the alliance.

This is a huge asspull. Stormwind is legitimately a nation of refugees. Stormwind's population got royally fucked in the First War. Whoever was able to make it to Stormwind got on a boat and sailed to Lordaeron and EVEN THEN there were still people who got left behind to enjoy a good old dosage of orc rape. Then the remnants of those refugees came back and had to have their entire kingdom reconstructed. THEN they had to go about repopulating.

When vanilla kicks off, all the humans in the Alliance were either from Theramore, Stromgarde, or Stormwind. Theramore is made up of Lordaeron refugees. Stromgarde was already falling apart. Stormwind was in the best shape, but realistically in no way incredibly numerous.

Meanwhile, you have the dwarves of both Ironforge and Aerie Peak already members of the Alliance in vanilla. Guess what? Their losses compared to the humans over the Second and Third Wars are pretty damn minimal. Not only that, but the heart of their kingdom never fell. Their production capabilities never got fucked. They didn't have to relocate and repopulate like crazy.

Stormwind had no reason to be the "head" of the Alliance. Diplomatically, it was not as important or strategic as Theramore. Economically and militarily, it was not as important as Ironforge. Stormwind was only above Gnomeregan in importance.

>>48486209

>using "kiddy" unironically

you have to be at least 18 years old to post here

>>48484658
KJ and Archie are full-blown demon lords, and have been juiced up with the Legion's fel magic, so they're probably a lot more powerful than they were as motals, or than Velen is, even if he's very good at using the Light.

>>48486209

110+ posts ITT and you're the first person to use "kid" as an insult. Please see yourself out.

Humans - plot armor = ?

>>48486538
Tauren-levels of unimportance

>>48486538
vrykul

>>48486209
I have been night elf all my life and the thing is Blizzard just panders to human and orcs, other races are treated as
>le greedy green gnomes
>le tree huggers elf
>edgy renegades
>le witty funny gnomes

Etc

>>48486233
Theramore was the forefront of the alliance because the alliance as it was back then was basically completely destroyed alongside Lordaeron. After it was reformed, it made sense they would move its center to a larger and stronger kingdom.

Before the first war Stormwind was by far the most powerful human kingdom. Even to the point that during the second war Stormwind refugees were still a fairly major fighting force. After that they pretty much had 21 years to repopulate and rebuild. Which let me remind you, is about as long as the time between the first and second world war.

Ironforge actually did very poorly during the second war. Pretty much all of Khaz modan was occupied by the horde. Only Ironforge itself managed to survive the invasion. And overall Ironforge was never quite as powerful as most of the human kingdoms. Don't get me wrong, it is probally equal if not stronger than Stormwind. But i doubt dwarf's outnumber humans in the alliance.

>>48486837
I don't think dwarves outnumber humans, but I do think Ironforge would have a larger population than Stormwind. Because the dwarf population is far more concentrated than the human population

>>48485961
But what was the lore explanation for that?

Just a lel ok lets be in the alliance why not

I miss Vanilla WoW for the atmosphere

Every faction had ample reason to distrust and dislike every other faction, even the racial factions within the main two factions had ample reason to dislike each other.

It was great, it made the world feel real, it even allowed the odd bits, like the forsaken being a part of the horde and the night elves being a part of the alliance to slip in without feeling overtly out of place

>>48486233
> It knew the truth of Third War, the Scourge, Arthas, Quel'Thalas, etc.

Not really. Jaina & Co. ran before the war even trully started, sometime after Culling of Stratholme, but before Arthas returned from Northrend (which took place months later: it took him a month to get from Stratholme to Daggercap bay, then unknown amount of time to get Frostmourne, kill Mal'Ganis, propably screw around on Northrend some more to learn to use his new powers and turn his expedition to undead, then back to Lordaeron to kill his father), much less before Quel'thalas' destruction. They had no idea what's going on in Lordaeron until Lord Admiral Proudmoore showed up with Kul Tiras's fleet, long after Hyjal (when Theramore and Orgrimmar were both already built).

Even dreadlords had no idea the Legion was defeated months after the Hyjal (I suspect Arthas and Legion's undead forces used magic to hop between continents, timeline wouldn't fit otherwise... it takes months to get over Great Sea). By that time, there were still people left in Lordaeron (dreadlords were lazy fucks, Scourge was way less effective under their command). Those people ran mostly south, not to Theramore.

Stormwind? It was being rebuilt since Second War, and got an influence of refugees from Lordaeron after Third War. It was also easier to flee to Kul Tiras and Stormwind than to Theramore (especially when the refugees had no idea Theramore or even Kalimdor exists)

>>48486976
Warsong clan started chopping down Ashenvale and Stonetalon for lumber, night elves asked thrall to stop them and he said no because somethingsomething hellscream, so the night elves asked jaina in theramore to help convince him, she tried and still nothing. Ultimately, and trying really hard to hold back her anger and not just awaken the ancients and flatten Orgrimmar, Tyrande asked the alliance at large to assist with the issue, and they asked her to join in order to provide a united negotiation front.

Thrall was too busy dicking about to care so the conflict just kept escalating until cata, where open war broke and the alliance sent troops to help the night elves, who were now too weak due to internal conflict and low-key skrimishes with the horde to just wipe them out like they could have done from the beginning

>>48486976
because Thrall is a retard and sent the Warsong back to Ashenvale instead of trying to trade with or ally the nelves

>>48486941
Possibly. But because humans are still the majority, it makes sense to me that Stormwind is still the "center" of the alliance.

Altough frankly, it would have made more sense if the alliance had no real center.

>>48486226
I'd think of Kul Tiras more along the lines of colonial Spain. If nothing else, because that would give them a nice unique aesthetic, if they were ever put into WoW, while still being a good real world historical naval power to draw from.

>>48486976
Elves needed allies because they were afraid of few Warsong loggers in Ashenvale.

Mostly, with the coming of Alliance and forming of new Horde on Kalimdor, they couldn't stay in isolation anymore, and despite fighting on the same side on Hyjal, they never forgave orcs for killing Cenarius. Logic-wise, they had no reason to become a part of the Alliance, Blizzard-logic-wise (which has nothing to do with real logic), they couldn't stay on their own because it wouldn't fit their gameplay model.

Out of universe needs of a MMORPG (and Kosak) are bane of decent lore.

>>48487272
>WoW
>Ever doing anything other than generic fantasy X

Which is cooler thematically, Troll Shaman or Troll Druid? I'm thinking of rolling one up for legion, but I've never played either class before. In general I find the druid's lore and theme kinda uninteresting, but the trolls seem to add a neat flavor to it. Plus I can play a blue tiger with red mowhawk, that's pretty rad.

>>48487283
Gilneas very clearly has a Victorian England aesthetic, which is not very generic.

>>48487199
Honestly, the orcs are a bunch of assholes, and the horde leaders are just a long succession of pieces of shit with the notable exceptions of Cairne, Baine and Vol'jin

They are hypocrites who keep crying about how they want to live in peace and yet they occupy and chop down the night elves' ancestral woods, set fire to stonetalon mountains, genocide humans to harvest their corpses, invade neutral cities, disfigure important historical sites, employ weapons of mass destruction on moncombatants and attempt to bring about the end of the world at least once every few years

Fuck the horde, jaina was right

>>48487200
Blizzard keeps forcing the Alliance as a nation instead of an, well, alliance.

>>48487281

When I started playing my idea was that, wew elves hate orcs because they killed cenarius

Cenarion Circle separating from the elves and Cenarius reviving and be all happy with the Horde was so shitty too...

>>48487337
I say shaman.

Turning into a bat is cool and all, but well, Tunda King.

Anyone heard anything from that guy offering to run a game last week?

>>48487337
Druids with shamanic fluff. Loa worship is similar to shamanism, except they worship spirits instead of elements, and the powers they are given are different, more fitting with druids's control of nature and turning to animals (see bosses in ZA and ZG) than shaman's lightning and fire throwing.

>>48487200
>Altough frankly, it would have made more sense if the alliance had no real center.
This. It just kinda bugs me that humans have been shoved into the core of the Alliance, mostly at the expense of the Alliance actually being an alliance. The other races have pretty much just turned into the humans' sidekicks for the most part.

>>48487283
Actually as of recent times WoW aesthetic has moved more and more toward victorian/industrial revolution, especially in the alliance and neutral camps (horde remains a bunch of street-shitting savages)

Just look at anduin and wration's outfits, that is straight up victorian

>>48487407
>horde remains a bunch of street-shitting savages
Garrosh would have fixed that, just saying..

>>48487404
I think that's mostly just because that was the case in Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3. It made sense there, but after the third war it seems kind of odd.

>>48487524
You can't fix orcs, better humanoids than Garrosh tried and failed

Thrall was a limp-dick that couldn't control them, and when Garrosh tried to civilize the orcs in old draenor they turned into

You guessed it

The exact same street-shitting savages currently squatting in a world that is not theirs, except with brown skin instead of green

>>48487593
>better humanoids than Garrosh tried and failed
>better humanoids than Garrosh
of course something that doesn't exist couldn't accomplish anything

>>48487345
>Victorian England
>Not generic as fuck

Sure thing buddy

>>48487281
I think its fine lore wise. Considering how Azeroth can't seem to go a month without some new world destroying disaster almost killing everybody. Night elves would have had to ally with somebody eventually if they wanted to make sure everybody didn't die horribly.

The whole woodcutting incident was just the deciding factor for which faction to ally with.

>>48487624
Even that chode gallywix falls into that category

>>48487353
I blame Cata, Mop, and to a lesser extent vanilia for the complete derailing of orcs post Warcraft 3. I honestly wonder if some major writer just wanted the horde to be "evil" faction of the two. And everybody else was mostly unable to stop him.

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>>48487625
Generic fantasy is medieval.

>>48483186
The Mantid could've been a great horde race if it wasn't for fucking pandas, seriously those fucks are horde why? cause some alcoholic was friends with Vol'jin and Thrall, fuck that

>>48487703
Well, the wood cutting and the night elves are probably still a bit bitter towards the orcs for killing one of their deities.

>>48487750
Orcs were always evil
In warcraft 1 they were evil
In warcraft 2 they were evil-er
In warcraft 3 they started goodish but ended up pretty fucking gray
In vanilla wow they were doing evil shit and thrall turned a blind eye
In BC they were goodish
In WotLK they were goodish
Then it all just went way downhill

>>48487750
>I honestly wonder if some major writer just wanted the horde to be "evil" faction of the two.

Supposedly, that's Kosak's doing. Warcraft 2 was his favorite Warcraft game, and he wanted to bring the Horde back to that.

>>48484578
Cata wasn't that bad. They fucked up with vashir which screwed their whole 4 raid tier cycle. if it weren't for vashir cata would've been pretty good.

>>48487936
And rightfully so, "I was just following orders from the demons" was never a valid excuse, as WoD so kindly demonstrated

>>48487926
the problem with the mantid is that they're entire race openly serves the Old Gods, specifically Y'sharrj. Kind of hard to ally with someone when you kill their gods every other expansion

>>48487926
Nothing under the thrall of an old god will ever be playable.

Which saddens me.

>>48488009
Murlocs when

>>48488036
When they realize males and females looking the same equals half the model work.

>>48488009
Pandaria should have given the fish-men and monkey people as playable for the alliance and horde respectively

I'm sure plenty of people would love to ook some dookers

>>48488036
I'd play the shit out of that
Make all my abilities into macros with

/y RRRRAAAGRRRLRGLRGL!!

>>48488089
Wont they make a furrish ""sexy"" female murloc?

I really thing they wont make murlocs because they cant be sexualized and ergo wont sell

>>48487951
I would actually argue they were evil-er in warcraft 1. But otherwise i more or less agree.

Altough frankly i don't think they did anything evil in vanilla besides the whole warsong gulch incident. And that was mostly just blizzard putting a need for battlegrounds and pvp conflict above logic and lore. Which is stupid and unnecessary.

>>48488089
I think it would be really amusing if playable Murlocs had gender options. But Males and females looked the same regardless.

>>48487961
Ugh. Speaking as a huge Warcraft 2 fan. That's just dumb. The whole point of the orc campaign in Warcraft 3 and frozen throne is that they're over that part of their history.

Trying to bring that back now is just stupid. Especially consider the sheer amount of evil orc factions that exist anyway.

>>48488141
There was also ashenvale (and to a lesser degree stonetalon), that has always been a huge point of contention
Warsong makes open war on the night elves and horde leadership simply does not give a shit

>>48488124
Oh. You're one of those people.

>>48488358
It's been a while since I've done Vanilia Orc content. What exactly did they do in Ashenvale and Stonetalon?

>>48488362
/cast Death Grip
/yell GET OVER HERE!

>>48485961
I honestly hate the Forsaken as a playable race too. I wish they were a neutral npc faction or a horde faction.

The biggest problem with them is that they have no happy ending. They are literally dead and practically immortal. what's their happy ending when wow ends, huh? "The races of Azeroth learned to live in harmony and happiness for the rest of time. Except for the forsaken, whom eventually decayed and died out.

They should've released goblins in vanilla and if they NEEDED to add dumb worgen to the alliance in cata they could've just given us ogres or some shit.

This way under city could've been a nice neutral city or even a raid.

>>48488380
Cut down Night Elf sacred trees and desecrate Night Elf sacred land for their industry. Doubled down in Cata when the little green Jews showed up and wrecked Azshara. And Garrosh sent the Horde tp go all kill crazy on the Elves' sacred forests again.

>>48488007
Y'sharrj is dead, the klaxxi's whole dread wastes story was freeing the mantid from sha's influence.
Also lore wise old god servants aren't very kind of each other's masters

>>48488380
The warsong established lumber camps in night elf land and when asked to stop they told the silverwing sentinels to fuck off

Keep in mind Ashenvale has been the home of the night elves since the sundering, Astranaar used to be the capital until the founding of Darnassus, and borders had already been set

Stonetalon had smaller problems, mostly the poaching of manticores in what both the tauren and night elves considered sacred land

Ashenvale was a huge deal though, those trees were really important

>>48488380
They dropped an H-bomb in a druid training school in Stonetalon too.

Then another one in Theramore

>>48488438
Nope
Kosak has to force his waifu onto everyone. Set sail for more Sylvanas Did Nothing Wrong stories.

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>>48488497
>was a huge deal though, those trees were really important

>>48488497
>Astranaar, thousand of years... 4 wooden houses

>Darnassus, 5 years old city: biggest concentration of elves

>>48488531Night elves in a nutshell.

>>48488531
Nigger, they knew those trees since they were just nut and acorn.
When you just tromp into hippy elf terrotory and start chopping down their sacred trees, then waggle your duck at them when they tell you to stop, you don't get to be surprised when they try to kill you.

>>48488519
I'm talking about Vanilia Wow. Not post cata new world.

>>48488520
Is Sylvana really his waifu or just a meme?

>>48488497
>horde quests make you think the elves are greedy and want all the wood for themselves

>>48487370

Do you mean thunder king? Wasn't that a mogu?

>>48488492
Hey! Goblins are not jews, there more like New york if everybody was a mad scientist.

>>48488531
Okay, let me explain it better

Say your family had a tradition of cremating the dead and mixing then with really good coffee (i know, stupid, but stay with me) and keep the urns in the living room

Say you then allowed a guy who was out on his luck to crash at the spare toom you never use, and told him to keep to his side of the house, and he agreed

Say one day you notice some of the urns are missing and then you see the guy in your living room making coffee
Out of your grandmother's ashes

And then you tell him to stop and get back to his side of the house and he tells you to fuck off

While sipping on your grandmother's fucking ashes

>>48488493
>Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver says: I tell you now, because you have earned this warning.
>Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver says: Your gods are not our gods, outsider.
>Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver says: If the Old Ones ever return, we mantid will once again stand by their side.
>Kil'ruk stops in front of a picture of what is presumably a representation of Y'Sharrj and turns around, facing the adventurer.
>Kil'ruk the Wind-Reaver says: The wisest among you will do the same.
no matter how nice the mantid are, they'll turn as soon as Y'sharrj returns, which is why the join Garrosh in SoO

>>48488595
He's the one who has been bending the lore over backwards to accommodate her when she should have been killed off by her own faction years ago. Instead she gets to be rewarded with becoming the leader of the fucking Horde.

>>48488631
>imagine you're retarded and do fucked up shit for no reason
that does make it a lot clearer

>>48488622
Yeah, but has alot of troll fans.

>>48488624
>New York
>not Jews
That's like saying like Alabama but not a hick. Or like San Francisco but not a faggot.

>>48488497
The Warsong Gulch/Ashenvale wood incident was very stupid, and the first big clue of how Blizzard would handle faction conflict in Wow storywise. Aka, very poorly.

I'm a bit more sympathetic towards the horde in Stonetalon mountain though. Especially considering how lore wise the place was always inhabited by both Tauren's and night elves.

>>48488673
Eh. As a dutch person i still like to pretend everybody is dutch there.

>>48488661
And that's what it must have looked like to the orcs

>you put your ancestors in trees? That's stupid

But the fact of the matter is that it's no not your fucking house so you don't make the fucking rules

>>48488631
Well actually it's more like

Say your family had a tradition of keeping big forests around for no reason.

Say you then allowed a guy who's gone through several genocides and enslavement and what not to try to survive in a barren rocky desert.

Say one day you notice him logging.

And you tell him to stop and go back to his forest.

And he wipes the sweat off of his forehead and looks up at you with clear blue eyes and says "You have thousands of trees, while we are struggling survive. You do not even use your natural resources, but refuse to let them be used to their full potential?"

Say you then chimp the fuck out like the forest niggers you are

>>48488673
Eh. As a dutch person i still like to pretend everybody is dutch there. So that we have a claim on the place once "The Fall" finnaly happens.

>>48483226
Warcraft Bugfolk had it since AQ buddy.

>>48483564
>>48483602
>>48483618
A tiny bit of level scaling is okay but I don't like the "Any order" idea they have for the expansion.

>>48483611
>>48483639
>>48483738
To be fair, there were really only a few Murloc areas that got that bad. Two in Elwynn MAYBE one in the Bloodelf and Undead starting zone, probably a couple in Wetlands

And then there was the king of them all: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=982/deep-ocean-vast-sea Horde players generally considered Murlocs cute, Alliance players considered them the spawn of satan himself.

>>48484111
About Hakkar, did they finally give him a unique model or at least the "Burning pseudo-Doomguard" model instead of just being a Dreadlord?

>>48484426
Not true in lore anymore, in the Chronicle lore each old god spit out legions of Aqir from the very begining.

>>48484518
>>48485704
True, but they also had the support of the dragons and still had a tough time winning.

(I do find it funny that the first Anubisath to figure out how to throw a spear was so smart he was made a general and given a cool bird head and blue stone makeover)

>>48486837
>Before the first war Stormwind was by far the most powerful human kingdom. Even to the point that during the second war Stormwind refugees were still a fairly major fighting force. After that they pretty much had 21 years to repopulate and rebuild. Which let me remind you, is about as long as the time between the first and second world war.
Eh, I think Stormwind was about equal to Lordaeron and far mroe diplomatically isolated.


>>48486837
>Ironforge actually did very poorly during the second war. Pretty much all of Khaz modan was occupied by the horde.
I always wonder what would have happened if when trying to break into IF and Gnomer the Old Horde unleashed the Trogs on themselves instead.

>>48488757
>rapefugees welcome

This is you quotted

>>48488726
And tauren and night elves always lived in peace, but then one day an orc was like

>hey, you know what we should do? Poach these things and ride them

And tauren were like "uh uh blood oath" but that didn't quite fly with the night elves

>>48488757
>that horde apologist pasta again
Fuck off. Orcs didn't respect established boundaries and acted like entitled shits taking what didn't belong to them.

>>48488438
I think that's a very stupid reason to dislike the Forsaken. Not to sound overly edgy, but not everybody gets to have a happy ending in the world.

Story wise, the only real problem i can see regarding the forsaken being playable is that they might just be too evil for the supposedly "good" horde. Altough personally i don't mind having a slightly more villainous/morally ambiguous faction in the game.

>>48488565
In the lore, Nighthaven was the night elf capital. But it was made into the neutral druid zone that has had almost jack-shit occur in it. Other than Lunar Festival and the Eranikus AQ event fight.

>>48488497
>Stonetalon had smaller problems, mostly the poaching of manticores in what both the tauren and night elves considered sacred land
The Horde never poached Stonetalon manticores, they made an alliance with them (I wish the fact that manticores are pretty much sapient was still brought up) One of them did poach Thousand Needles Manticores though.

The Poaching in Stonetalon was Venture Co.

>>48488757
Yeah, well fuck you, it's my forest. If that faggot wants wood he can find his own forest.

>>48488757
>>48488778
>you have all these women around and you're not even raping them!

>>48488805
>Everything I don't like is a pasta

>>48488797
I'm still mostly fine with it. I mean, i agree that the horde is "in the wrong" regarding Ashenvale. But Stonetalon is really just a case of the Night elves being meddling pretentious twats.

>>48488825
We did it become independent? Why was blizzard so shit with the druids

Reminder that Garrosh was going to make the Horde great again untill Blizzard decided to turn him into a villain.

>>48488520
Well, that's kinda the thing. The narrative acknowledges that Sylvanas does wrong stuff. The problem is that nothing ever comes of it and she gets away with everything.

>>48488919
Because stupid factional conflicts would prevent night elves from having to have a capital where Horde could enter, even if it was just tauren.

>>48489012
Because everything the forsaken do is justified. They have been given the shortest end of all the sticks and still get shit on for trying to make it even.

Why are not the furbolgs in the Alliance?

>>48489062
>bad things happened to me so I'm justified in being a genocidal turbocunt
No. Fuck off, Kosak.

>>48489128
Why aren't the Quillboars? It would make sense for them to throw their lot in with the people opposed to the assholes who have been genociding the for generations.
Same with the Gnolls. Would make sense for them to join with the Horde. And for full meme points, Hogger could be their faction leader.

>>48489137
>We shit all over your people, lands, rights, everything
>When you try to stop us you are the bad guy
>We din do muffin

No. Stop.

>>48489177
Too stupid and beastly.

Get rid of the human-skin tents and we'll talk.

>>48489177
Of those furbolgs are a bit more advanced I think, at least socially and spiritually.

>>48489184

>dead abominations of dark magic
>having rights

>>48488942
Reminder that such a idea was terrible from the start because of how much of a little shit they made him in Wrath.

>>48488565
>>48488825
>>48488919
>>48489040
Was it ever their capital?

(Despite having the incredibly dubious honor of being KNAAK'S second-worst book Stormrage did have a pretty cool description of the first Nightelf capital after the sundering and Satyr War that sounded pretty damn awesome and nothing like either of those towns.)

>>48489177
>Why aren't the Quillboars? It would make sense for them to throw their lot in with the people opposed to the assholes who have been genociding the for generations.
To be fair they did sorta start their relationship with the Horde by trying to murder them as they washed ashore, and near always had the advantage on the Tauren. Agamaggan's own spirit did that crying indian thing looking at his wayward children. (A shame he never got his own model and that the WoD boars who they would probably start with as a base use an absolutely ATROCIOUS animation skeleton compared to the older less detailed ones. Fucking hell that waddle pissed me off.)


>Same with the Gnolls. Would make sense for them to join with the Horde. And for full meme points, Hogger could be their faction leader.
I want Gnolls led by an NPC named Drudge or Dreg or something that's a cross between Thrall and Uncka Ruckus (No Relation) in his attitude towards other Gnolls.

>>48489184
They don't need nearly as much land, they only have to eat when they're injured.

>>48489177
Quillboars hate everything that's not a Quillboar.

>>48489177
Interesting thing about Gnolls
They're native to the eastern kingdoms with only two tribes in Kalimdor that seem to be recent transplants.

And yet Hyenas are native to only Kalimdor.

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>Garrosh dies
>Zaela dies
>YWN see him as Warchief and her as his wife, and see them both grow into reasonable leaders with their warrior prowess tempered with experience.

>>48489370
Gotta keep the revolving doors of Grommash Hold spinning somehow.

Does Sylvanas even set up shop there, or is Undercity the de-facto Horde capital in Legion?

>>48489227
>>dead abominations of dark magic
>>having rights
#unlivesmatter

>>48489370
>Zaela's last words are begging Garrosh for forgiveness
>because of how LFD works, you probably didn't even kill her until after Garrosh was already dead
it's not fucking fair

>>48489370
It would have been interesting, i will give it that. But alas, turns out fans can be very unforgiving towards characters they don't like.

>>48484587
Old gods.

Anyone else worried that Blizzard is going to run out of characters faster than they can introduce them, and all the new ones are gonna have to be shoehorned in a patch or so before they become warchief or something silly like that?

>>48489614
We will descend to the black city the Shadow Priest Artifact keeps bragging about.

>>48484587
If they have any brains left then this is the last expansion. And next we get Wow 2/warcraft 4.

>>48489638
It would be hilarious if that actually happend. A new warchief with every patch!

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>>48489641
I would be 100% okay with this shit.

>>48489660
Or at least a BIG overhaul. It hardly come new players.

>>48484518
They got assfucked by the troll empire actually, then the night elves fought a shadow of the previous bug empire.

>>48489482
Garrosh was basically doomed when fans got butthurt when he became Warchief, right?

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>>48489706
>More Old God Cataclysm-esque drivel

>>48489850
>Cho'gall's ghost comes back and we have to kill him for the 4th time

>>48489660
There is already another expansion planned for after legion

>>48489128
The few that remain are. IIRC, though, during Vanilla it was explained that most Furbolgs started degrading into feral beasts after the Third War due to the Burning Legion's taint, or something.

>>48489177
I'd like for Quillboar to be playable, actually. I don't know why, but they're one of my favorite creep races, second to the Naga.

>>48489904
Cho'Gall's Ghost, AU Cho'Gall's Ghost, Cho'Gall's risen corpse and AU Zombie Cho'Gall council fight.

>>48489934
Blizz should just give up with WoW desu

>>48489954
Do they combine for the Mythic difficulty fight?

>>48489954
>4 Chos and 4 Galls yelling abuse at each other while alternating between warlock magic, shaman magic, void energy shit and plain old punching you with a giant ogre fist
>at the end of the fight they combine into Choltron and unleash the full power of Draenor and Azeroth's old Gods + the Legion and elements

>>48489850
The bad parts of Cataclysm weren't the Old God parts, they were the faction war parts and the elimination of older content.

Though a lot of the Twilight's Hammer music was rather underwhelming.

>>48489660
I think the fact we've got cata and other expansions instead of WOW2 after WotLK speaks for itself

Expansions are cheaper to make than a whole new game, and Blizzard is selling them for a price of standalone titles and then wants subscription fees too.

>>48490044
And if you beat it on Mythic, you get to play as an ogre.

>>48489826
Pretty much. Originally they wrote him with the intention of making him a reasonable leader after development. See - Stonetalon, in which he quotes Saurfang's lessons to him and tosses a guy off a cliff for bombing innocents and killing his own tauren allies for trying to stop him.

Later Garrosh does the same fucking thing, right down to having his personal gestapo to silence those who talk bad about him in Orgrimmar.

The official explanation is they got confused in Cata with a bunch of writers not realizing he was supposed to end up good, and then they were just like "HAHA YOU GUYS SO SILLY FINE WE'LL JUST MAKE HIM EVIL AND KILL HIM".

>>48489336
The hyenas who were in the Eastern Kingdoms region at the time of the Sundering evolved into Gnolls, the rest stayed primitive dog-things.
At least that's the bullshit I just pulled out of my ass.

>>48490728
Dogs in the original Scarlet Monastery used hyena model.

Perhaps wild hyenas went extinct, but some were domesticated?

Could it be that the forsaken are the only literally evil playable faction in the game?

>see that farmstead? kill everyone
>see that castle full of human refugees? kill them
>see those healed animals? infect them
>see those gilneans? they are sittin on our rightful turf, kill them
>oy vey why do those evil scarlet crusaders pursue us so?
>do literal scourgework on every turn

and the argent dawn, their #1 enablers and protectors, are guilty of their crimes aswell.

>Knights of the Ebonblades are gud guys, they dindu nuffin, da lidsh kang forced their spirit n shieet
>literally the first DK quest shows another DK initiate refusing to kill anyone
>still pushing the "DKs" acted against their will narrative

I'm just glad Tirion is finally dead, that old faggot was a bigger threat to the world than Kil Jaeden

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>>48490862
stop right there citizen!
I really hope you aren't slandering our boys in blue

What is the single dumbest lore decision that you would retcon if you were to run a game? I know there have been a lot over the years, but which one is truly the most Metzen?

>>48490963
>literally
>LITERALLY swaers allegiance to the frozen throne first chance he gets

Darion is a cuck bitch who threw a hissy fit that Arthas dumped his bitch ass for one expansion, and now comes back crawling on his knees.

Alexandros killed the wrong son, RIP Renault

>>48490995
all of Burning Crusade happening.

Everything bad with WoW today has it's roots in there (Garrosh among other things)

>>48490995
it's not the worst lore decsion, but I'd retcon Kael'thas's Serbian Jew double bluff into quantum superstates of serving Illidan and the Legion at the same time. It makes TFT and BC both make no fucking sense

>>48490995
The single Legion is the most asinine shit ever. Worse than time-traveling to the past to get a new old dragon soul to beat deathwing in the future which beats him in the present. Worse than the Eredar and Nathrezim retcon, worse than Sargeras a good boi he dun do nuffin he go to church he finna just need mo money to stop dem void lords. Worse than making an entire time travel xpack just to bring one character back from the dead instead of just having his all powerful masters revive him.

>>48490995
Forced Red vs Blue, absolutely limits the story and makes no sense in many areas

>>48490995
Everything that has to do with time travel.

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>>48490995
No fucking alternate universe bullshit and by extension no fucking time travel. Bronze flight be damned. In my headcanon they're observers and catalogers of the 'what if', futures aren't known to them.

>>48490995
Draenor.

Like, if I could splice half the cool shit on it into outland, like maybe another half of the planet floating around space, I would do it. Minus the iron horde.

>>48490354
>tosses a guy off a cliff for bombing innocents and killing his own tauren allies for trying to stop him.
And Blizzard still never fixed it so his body falls all the way to the ground. (Maybe it was so people with absolutely shit draw-distances could still see it? ) so it feels really lame to see him fall like twenty feet. (And I just hate the fact that Stonetalon turned from an atmospheric zone to nearly nonstop Red vs Blu bullshit. Harpies are supposed to be native to Stonetalon yet they are COMPLETELY gone in Cata.

>>48491052
>>48491053
Gotta say those are both pretty bad. Can "Hiring Kosak" be my pick instead?


Shit I'd rather they fucking hired Leeroy goddamn Jenkins or the Onyxia wipe leader if the HAD to hire a famous Warcraft fanmeme, It couldn't be any WORSE than what we got.

Also I don't think a learning arc where he's absolved of all his numerous fuckups would be satisfactory.

>>48490817
They were replaced with big bloodhounds the instant there was an actual bloodhound model though, I think the Hyena models were just placeholders.

>>48486233
Yeah and Orgrimmar was whatever orcs thrall could manage to gather before sailing across the sea.

Not a nation or orcs, not entire clans, but whatever scattered remnants he managed to asspull together.

For fucks sake, the majority of orcs were kept in fucking concentration camps.

>>48489336
>>48490728
>>48490817
I'm like 90% certain there are hyenas in the Badlands. Did they get removed?

>>48491440
>the Onyxia wipe leader
they probably couldn't get away with rehashing OL again

>>48491498
>I'm like 90% certain there are hyenas in the Badlands. Did they get removed?
They had coyotes using the old "Small wolf" model and some wild cats.

>>48489336
Reminder that there are hyenas all over the Blasted Lands, as well as a couple named rares in Burning Steppes, Eastern Plaguelands, etc.

>>48491549
This is correct, but there are Hyenas in the Blasted Lands.

This doesn't really make sense, though, as hyenas wouldn't have inhabited the black morass/swamp of sorrows when it was still a swamp.

>>48491687
>>48491696
Ah shit there were in the Blasted Lands.

The ones in EPL/WPL are all dogs now.

>>48488497
Actually the Wyverns were Horde aligned.

Night Elves never gave a shit about Wyverns

>>48484625
People didn't care about Thrall being all powerful, they got upset that he got as much spotlight as he did in the expansion. All the Alliance God characters are either non-existent or barely present in the Horde narrative. Thrall is all over the Alliance narrative.

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>>48487337
Shaman.

>playing any Druid that's not a Tauren or Night Elf.

>>48491868
>playing any druid that's not a Night Elf
Horde druids were a mistake.

>>48491498
Kosak was hired back in BC I think, so they could still rehash Ony.

>>48491881
What class would you have given Horde to balance out the imbalance? Necromancer?

>>48491924
Onyxia Part 4: Ghost Edition

>>48491949
Runemaster?

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>>48488531
>>48488757

Nelves don't care about a few trees, they care about the entirely of the Forest. Losing a few trees is nothing to write home about, clear-cutting the entire forest and trashing the place so bad that nothing will grow back and none of the animals will either is a big fucking deal to anyone who can think long-term.

Its like Brazil clear-cutting the rain forest. It looks good short term because they get lumber and farmland, but it utterly fucks them in the long run because the tree's won't grow back, and all the soil washes away in the rains. They are royally fucking over their next generation. But the current generation doesn't give a fuck, because its profitable as hell. They'll squeeze it dry and move on to other things like offshore investments while their workers and children starve with no remorse.

>>48490995
The entire High King arc.

That, or hiring Matt War-- I mean Kosak,

>>48487337
Troll druids are not really druids in the sense that nelf and cow ones are. They are more similar to Loa Priests - effectively shamans in the literal sense of the world that worship wild gods and spirits instead of the "elements". A lot of the newer class combos are like this in that they aren't TRULY the class, but their skillset is similar enough to allow it.

Tauren Pallies for example are sun-warriors that are considered paladins for the sake of gameplay simplicity. Tauren priests are for all intents just Balance druids, and the very concept of Tauren using the Light (not sunlight) or the Void is asinine.

>>48491949
Necro (ranged variant of current DK) or Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter (ranged attacker with some support skills taken from shaman and priest) would have worked as a unique Forsaken or Troll class. The WC3 troll skillset was effectively split up between priest and shaman for the most part. Why priests got mana burn (arcane/fel duality) when they were handing out abilities never quite made sense to me.

>>48492001
>The entire High King arc.

I still wonder what was the purpose.

>>48490862
The Ebon Blade literally attacks Light's Hope AGAIN to grave rob, raising tons of dead paladins as undead abominations to help them in the siege so they can steal Tirion's corpse. Then they get BTFO yet again by THE SAME LIGHT OF DAWN AS LAST TIME and run.

>>48491868
>Dissing on Troll Druids.

>>48491924
Though he wasn't really promoted till the Kosaklysm where most of the team was off trying to make Titan.

>>48491881
Nah, that's dumb I like non Nightelf druids a lot, it added a bit to the story.

>>48492031
>Why priests got mana burn (arcane/fel duality) when they were handing out abilities never quite made sense to me.
Don't worry, Blizz has more than taken care of that.

>>48492076
Blizz has writers' block when it comes to writing for the Alliance. And they want to emphasize the Humans vs. Orcs part of the story.

The problem with this is the Alliance stops being an alliance when it has a Blue Warchief. I don't know why they keep trying to push it after it blew up in their face. Blizzard went into full damage control at the end of MoP trying to say that the Alliance was the same as the Grand Alliance of the Second War. Even though Lothar had zero blood ties to any of the member states, and was clearly subordinate to them. They tweet that its just like the Sumpreme Allied Commander in WWII, but I never hear of Eisenhower ordering Churchill around.

>>48492230
It depends on WHERE they are and why each of them is there.

If Churchill were to wander onto a battlefield drunk then Eisenhower could have him removed and then Churchill would have to start the process to vote him out.

We don't see Varian exert any real CIVIC control over the Alliance outside his own territory, just in military, diplomatic, and espionage matters.

>>48492293
>council of three hammers

>>48492293
We do in Pandaria and in the novels. The entire dialogue with the other leaders in SoO didn't exist until the play-testers went nuclear about Varian making decisions for the Alliance instead of proposing a concept and getting approval for it with the other Alliance leaders. This is also one of the reasons by Metzen did his Alliance speak at the following Blizzcon.

As far as Blizzard is concerned, The High King IS the undesputed ruler of the Alliance.

What is the best way to get Nature Worship as dominant religion for Humans, not the holy Light?

>>48492389
I knew I should have dedicated a few sentences to that.

In the instance of the Council of Three Hammers he would have been more than justified simply executing Moira for holding the diplomat and heir to Stormwind hostage and letting the Bronzebeards and Wildhammers simply purge the Dark Iron, instead he acted as a relatively neutral negotiator to help the dwarves draft something worthwhile for everyone.

>>48492473
Turn them all into worgen?

>>48492473
side wit da Amani mon

>>48492473
Come to think of it, how did Light-worship even start amongst humans when they live in a world full of titan-influence, void-influence, legion-influence, and wild gods?

>>48492705
Tirisfal is a land heavily touched by the Light because of Tyr's grave, and also by the Void because of that Cthraxxi general he took with him.

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>>48490995

Would make time travel to the past not possible. It all sparked off with the War of the Ancients trilogy it seems. Nozdormu and his brood would have to be re-worked to be more like, guardians of history or something
.
That and not have Metzen kill off Malygos. Called the Hand of Magic and an Aspect, nothing special happens when he dies. However Deathwing gets a whole world to destroy and is pretty much responsible for the remaning dragon aspects losing a vast majority of their power. Always seemed screwy to me.

>>48492473
Some Naaru started to influence humans from afar, IIRC

>>48492770
Agreed on Aspects. They shoul'd be a big deal, not just the most powerful cops in their respective bloc and nothing much happens when they are killed.

Warcraft RPG mentioned that killing of any powerful dragon, not even Aspect, have severe consequences on the area, depending no the type of dragon... black dragon's dead may mean earthquakes. blue dragon causes screwy magic in the area, etc.. Too bad it's non-canon

>>48491868
Troll Druids are neat and it should've been an option from the start.

>>48492571
Are trolls and humans not enemies since the first contact?

>>48491868
>>48493164
I think it would've been cooler than tauren druids; I don't particularly dislike them but the idea of worshipping the loa through shapeshifting is flavourful, and they basically just chose tauren because "they were on kalimdor with nelves"

>>48493177
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Arathor_and_the_Troll_Wars
Thoradin believed elven lies, the Amani are a tribe of peace mon

>>48493276
So the humans could have form an alliance with the trolls?

>>48493441
No, trolls have always been crazy-xenophobic.

>>48491785
Tirion Fordring in Wrath probably got as much screentime as Cata Thrall, Anduin in Mists comea pretty close, and Khadgar in Warlords probably got more. And is set to get even more than that in Legion.

>>48493655
They could probably have had an alliance with the trolls if they helped the trolls kick the elves out

The trolls were crazy xenophobic, but they hate elves enough to overlook that

>>48493655
>No, trolls have always been crazy-xenophobic.

Is that why they had a stable partnership with the Mogu for generations?

>>48495279
because the Zandalari and the Mogu were the only powers that could challenge each other on Azeroth. Why risk MAD when you can be friends and oppress all the other lesser races with impunity

So we have shadow priests... how bout shadow paladins?

>>48495403
literally Tyrant Velhari

>>48495403

...Unholy DK?

>>48487750
I miss the demon worshipping Orcs of old. The Dindu nuffins (Warcraft 3 and later) are awful.

>>48489934
Oh god. The game is 12 fucking years old already. END IT ALREADY!

>>48495525
They only worshiped demons in Warcraft 1. Aka, the bland one. Hell, even there it seemed more like they were using demons rather than worshiping them. It wasn't until warcraft 3 that the whole demon worshiping thing was established.

>>48490995
Alt-his good Garrosh of course.
SoO worst day of my life

It's the start of WotLK, and Blizzad hires you as a writer for the expansion after WotLK. Wat do?

>>48488641

Endgame of Pandaria should have been Y'shaarj's resurrection, not "This is your warchief, this is your warchief on Sha, any questions?" nonsense.

>>48497566
Emerald dream expansion

New class/race combos remain. Undead get paladins instead of hunters, gnomes get hunters

Instead of new races, new feature: alternate races. Same racial powers, but different base stat layouts, appearance, starting location and, in some cases, classes. Examples: Gilneans for humans, wildhammer and dark iron for dwarves, forest trolls for trolls, elven undead for forsaken.

>>48491440

They DID hire Leroy Jenkins, just to voice his NPC in the Blackrock Spire dungeon... but still.

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>>48495525
Nah, the story arc of the orcs in wc3 was fine. The problem is they had to push red vs blue pvp bullshit, and for that to work you can't have peaceful orcs trying to scratch out a living in the desert not bothering anyone. Either the horde should've been made full evil again like in wc2 (maybe kill Thrall and some Garrosh figure takes over but no civil war?) or they should've been proper good guys, not 'good guys'.

>>48497856
Sure you can, just let the alliance be the aggressors

>>48497566
Is Cata but good a possible answer? Since i actually really like the idea of having a old god/deathwing themed expansion.

>>48487353
Belf leader ain't too bad

>>48497875
Maybe, but there was no reason for them to attack the horde in vanilla. The alliance had their hands full with problems in their backyard. Not to mention the small conflicts that were in WoW were all incredibly hamfisted and only there for the sake of having battlegrounds.

>>48498403
I don't think Alterac valley was hamfisted.

Arathi basin and Warsong hold were, but Alterac valley had two sides with fairly equal claim to the land fighting over who gets the right to live there

you boys better make a new thread.

>>48498524
Who was fighting there? I know the dwarves, which is fair but I can't remember why the orcs were there.

>>48498683
the orcs squatted in the place after alterac was destroyed.
the dorfs were excavating stuff there and the orcs killed them.

>>48498626

NEW THREAD

>>48498745
>>48498745
>>48498745

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>>48497875
That would mean writing the Alliance as something other than Lawful Stupid. Blizzard won't do that.

>>48488759
The retcon I hate the most is the primordial azeroth retcon