Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

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>>48404899
Human master race confirmed.

>>48405243
I haven't read this yet. How old is anduin supposed to be here..

>>48404947
>>48405003

Yeah, if I recall, Elwynn, Westfall, Duskwood, and STV were done first.

>>48405243
>Velen giving up his own throne to High King Anduin
they can't keep getting away with it

I once played a pf game set in vanilla era azeroth. I was an evil troll Witch. Worshipped Hakkar, was on an agenda to gather willing troll tribes to zul gurub to aid in his resurrection.

>>48405689
velen is a racecuck.
>>48405753
hope the loa ate you,

>>48405753
What even happened to Hakkar?

>>48405810
He fucked off into the hole of unresolved plots. He's playing poker with Neptulon and N'zoth, after having given Alleria and Turalyon a quaint "Farewell and Congratulations" party.

>>48404899
Did anyone ever find a higher resolution image of it? Or at least the original artist?

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So what are the odds that we'll get another troll patch in Legion? We did wreck a lot of zandalari in MoP, but it's been a while so they might've bounced back from the losses.

And is Zandalar's position here at all accurate?

>>48405997
To my knowledge the trolls aren't much interested in the Legion or the Old Gods, they're more a Wild God/Titan thing and I cna't see those being in Legion all that much.

>>48406037
>Wild God
Emerald Dream is all kinds of fucked up in Legion. The Nightmare is flaring up something fierce. Ysera gets corrupted and Ursoc is a boss, too.

And Drakuru proves that trolls are not, as a rule, dedicated to Loa.

>>48405864
The worst part is that both storylines would have almost certainly been resolved in the cancelled Abyssal maw raid. I mean, they did everything but flat out say N'zoth was located under Vashj'ir.

>>48405997
>So what are the odds that we'll get another troll patch in Legion?
death be a doorway, and time a window. I'll be back! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

>>48406315
They'll be back when Azshara shows up.

The rest of Gun'Drak, Azjol Nerub, and Grim Batol are the real shames.

>>48406417
Nerubians could have been so good.
Subterranean zone...

Sadly they wont risk anything since Vashjir wasnt well recieved

>>48406417
Yeah. I would have liked to see a Gun Drak raid. If only to keep up the tradition. Azjol Nerub was a real shame too.

Not sure what was supposed to happen to Grim Batol. Was it originally meant to be a raid?

>>48406417
Project Titan drew so much away from Wrath and Cata. The insult to this injury is that Titan went nowhere and was salvaged into something else.

>>48406589
Yes. Altough at least the two dungeons we did get were really good.

>>48406617
Yep. And to make matters even worse, the massive staff re-shuffling following Titan's cancellation completely wrecked WoD.

At least Overwatch is fun.

>>48406620
I did like how the dungeons in Wrath foreshadowed Cata
>Twilight's Hammer cultists fucking around in Ahn'haket
>all the dragon egg drama culminating in you fighting Halion and discovering the twilight dragons

>>48406714
So you're telling me that as of now, Titan's failure negatively affected half of WoW's expansions in some form? Christ, that sounds like it would've killed any company except Blizzard.

>>48406735
Well Ruby Sanctum was literally just a filler raid to get people interested for Cata.

>>48406737
Pretty much, yeah. WoD probally got it the worst too. The intended story-line was changed mid expansion because they had to cancel the shattrath raid, which would have presumably ended the whole legion invasion sub plot. Leaving the Iron horde and Grom as the main villain.

At least Mop was mostly unaffected. presumably because that team actualy knew what they could and could not do.

>>48406889
Was there ever actually an event where you saw Socrethar in Shattrath? He talks about it in HFC but I never even went to shatt beyond the quest with Blackhand and the boats.

>>48406755
It's not filler if it contributes to the story.

>>48406959
I think he means raid progression-wise.

>>48406921
one of the garrison campaign quests sends you to Shattrath where you and Liadrin kill Socrethar

>>48406967
Oh, okay, that makes more sense.

>>48406967
I mean is there a reason that he says "You could not stop me in Shattrath. You will not end me here fools."

When I never even saw him in shattrath.

>>48406981
Ah, that makes sense I guess. I only ever got through half of those before losing interest in the garrison.

>>48406889
Yeah, WoD got hit by a double-whammy. Not only did the small developer team caused by a lot for former WoW devs being shuffled to Titan mean that a lot of content that had been intented to be included at launched had to be added later or removed entirely (Tanaan Jungle was originally going to be availeable at launch, and there was an entire additional zone and at least one raid that never materialized), but once Titan got canceled and the people moved back to WoW, they decided that instead of trying to integrate all the people to the existing project, they'd just wrap it up quickly and start working on the next expansion (which is why we get Gul'dan literally hijacking the plot, and spent the last year doing the same damn raid).

At least Legion will be the first expansion in a long time that doesn't suffer from massively downsized devteam. I think they actually got more people working on it than any of the previous expansions.

>>48407001
>I mean is there a reason that he says "You could not stop me in Shattrath. You will not end me here fools."
>When I never even saw him in shattrath.
because you were supposed to have seen him in Shattrath. Same reason Gorefiend is there even if you never ran Auchindoun or did the garrison campaign quests for it, and Teron Gorefiend is still in BT if you don't do the quests to summon him

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>>48407029
Wait. Why would you neglect so an extremely successful game? Are they stupid?

>>48407207
Kotick just wants the shekkels

>>48407029
Yep. Yet another reason why i might give it a shot.

I do wonder though what the original plan for WoD was. Considering how a statement claimed Grom was supposed to be the final boss. I imagine the Shattrath raid would have ended with you killing Gul Dan and stopping the legion invasion. With Hellfire citadel being the final battle against the iron horde.

Then again, the game was really building up Gul Dan as the biggest threat even before Hellfire Citadel. He probally had more screen time than Grom. And assuming they had already planned Legion. It would actually make sense for the legion to hi-jack the plot.

It's a shame really. I know i'm in the minority for this. But i did actually really like the premise of WoD. Its a shame the team pretty much decided to burn it and move on instead of actually finishing it like they planned.

>>48407207
the sad thing is that they still probably made a profit off it since the remains were turned into Overwatch

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>>48407238
I feel like he was played up as someone Grom had no issue ignoring before this cutscene.

>>48407207
This is just pure guesswork. But i sort of get the feeling they wanted Titan to "replace" World of Warcraft. Probably because they felt the game was getting too old, and/or they were interested in doing warcraft 4.

Again, this is just speculation. But i get the feeling Legion is going to be the final Wow expansion. A big status quo changing event to pave the way for either Warcraft 4 or Wow 2: This time its personal.

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Kul Tiras was shifted out to sea during the Cataclysm. I wonder if that will be relevant to the Broken Isles.

>>48407341
World of Warcraft: The Alternate Universe, where the orcs never invaded azeroth.

It could be a good and more to-day mmorpg if they can stay with the good things, dont do the same mistakes and add something different to all those mmo out there

>>48407207
Let's say that my sales teams says that I am statistically most likely to sell my product to the tune of 2 million units at 60 dollars. That 2 million number is not likely to change. So from there, for me to maximize my profit I just need to figure out how little budget I can put in, while still being able to reach that estimated amount of units sold.

It's better for profits to spend as little as possible while trying to sell as much as possible.

>>48407394
Oh you Kotick! You did it again!

>>48407321
True. And Gul Dan did seem to spend a large amount of his screen time getting kicked around.

Then again Grom Isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. And Khadgar was completely certain Gul Dan was the biggest threat on alt-dreanor.

>>48407456
I don't like it myself, but sadly that is the way of the world. Feels bad man.

>>48407344
Would be cool if Kul Tiras' navy showed up at some point. Maybe a quest chain related to Jaina's history.

>>48407238
I don't recall any implicaitons that Grom was originally intended to be the final boss. I seem to remember it always being Archimonde.

And the things they said at the BlizzCons preceeding Legion mentioned that Legion was already planned. They said that they had the storylines for the next three expansions outlined, which is why WoD's ending directly leads into Legion, and presumably Legion will do the same for the expansion after it.

>>48407576
Yeah, especially considering she's now Lady Admiral of Kul Tiras by right of succession.

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>>48407344
>>48407576
>>48407633

Come to think of it, with Jaina being booted from head of the Kirin Tor, now would be the perfect time for her to finally take the throne of Kul Tiras.

>>48407645
I just want to know if the people of Kul Tiras will take her, considering she basically stood by and let orcs kill her father and their king. Though given her more hostile disposition now, they might take her back.

>>48407480
Grom isn't stupid, considering his main timeline self managed to prevent himself and his clan from falling into lethargy and Alliance capture for nearly twenty years. Though I guess you can chop it up to Grom wising up a bit after watching the last bits of the Horde fall apart when Ner'zhul abandoned them.

>>48407799
>there will never be an AU where Grom goes south to find the Blackrock instead of wandering around Lordaeron

>>48408660
>an AU where Grom makes a gutsy last stand at Blackrock against the Legion since he wasn't there to guide Thrall to the Frostwolves.

Sounds GAR as fuck if you ask me.

Is there anyone who could have saved Neltharion from the Old Gods if they knew what was happening?

>>48410127
his reward for betraying the other Aspects was getting to keep Alexstrazsa and Ysera alive as sex slaves when the Old Gods won. is there someone who could have saved anyone from that?

>>48410481
Why would the Old Gods hold up their end of the bargain? They have no actual reason to keep their word, and every reason to kill him once they're free.

You'd think he would have thought of that.

>>48411010
>Why would the Old Gods hold up their end of the bargain?
they probably wouldn't, but there's no way to prove that to him unless you could bring him to the End Times

>>48411046
And Nozdormu didn't do that why? He easily could have, once he realized what was happening.

>>48411071
Wait, I literally just remembered the exact reason and I feel dumb now.

I hate time travel laws.

>>48411071
Nozdormu was kept busy during the War of the Ancients because the Old Gods were fucking with the timeways.

>>48411167
Daily reminder that the Burning Legion wouldn't exist if not for the Old Gods.

REMOVE TENTACLE FROM THE PREMISES

>>48404899
That looks pretty good. What's the scale for this map though? Hopefully not a days walk between Booty Bay and Stormwind.

>>48412648
I'd at least want it to be the size of Europe.

>>48407029
Yeah, but the lore has only a handful of goodpoints and the rest sucks.

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So, Legion gave the Naga these freaky ape-like brutes with four legs, but no fucking Coatl or Snapdragons?

What the fuck Blizzard?
>>48412648
The walk depends on how many times you get ganked in Stranglethorn.

(Never rolling on a PissVsPiss server ever again)

>>48404899
>Warcraft
>lore

>>48405689
>>48405784
Are you really telling me you think Velen is such a dick he'd make an old man (Well, young to a Draenei but old for a human) stand?

That's a pretty fucked up idea.

>>48407029
Let's not forget the premise being retarded. Who thought it was a good idea basing an expansion around time travel? I feel like I'm in a minority, but no matter how good the actual gameplay or story might be, it's too difficult to get into it with that kind of premise. To me WoD is the perfect example of a big problem Blizzard has - chucking in stuff they think is cool without considering the consequences.

The whole time travel thing raises a lot of questions that shouldn't have been raised. Similarly I dislike the technology in the setting. You can't have fucking helicopters and machine guns in the same setting as dudes in sword and armour. It just does not work. The whole setting breaks down as soon as you think about it too hard.

For me, the introduction of spaceships in TBC was the big red warning flag. I thought I was playing a fantasy game. Sci-fi wasn't what I signed up for. Blizzard just does not seem to know what they want WoW to be, or they just don't care and throw in whatever shit they feel is cool and try to then retroactively fit it into the setting.

>>48413270
I dunno why, but I find that kinda cute. Ugly cute, like a pug or gorilla.

I want to tame one and teach it to fetch thrown femurs.

>>48413656
It doens't look exactly like that. Just google Naga brute I don't really want to bother finding my screenshot.

>>48413418
Velen's being courteous because he knows he'll out live Anduin.

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>>48413667
After googling, I no longer want one.

>>48413573
Blizzard wanted orcs, we got orcs. I mean, they're just so EPIC! Who cares about time travel/world inconsistencies when we witness the rize of a proud and nobel people? Grommash did nothing wrong!

>>48413573
>Similarly I dislike the technology in the setting. You can't have fucking helicopters and machine guns in the same setting as dudes in sword and armour.
It's a setting where Grom killed Mannoroth by getting REALLY pissed off and hitting him with an axe.

It's a setting where a guy with a shield and some priests could stand toe to toe with the strongest fire elemental around.

It's a setting where Muradin walked off a case of near death and the only lasting consequence of the ordeal is having to explain to everyone that he didn't actually die.

It most certainly DOES work that way, if you tone down your MUH REALISM and accept that the setting is crawling with bloody super heroes.

>>48413573
All I want from time travel is:

Old content that got mutilated.

Content from way back in other times that we couldn't see otherwise.(How CoT originally was)

And a real Nozdormu raid where timelines go fucking crazy. The 5man was shite.

>>48405243
Pictured: Anduin's age when the second tier raid is finally over.

(If WoD is anything to go by)

>>48407238
It might've still ended with Gul'dan/Archie as the final boss to set up Legion, but they originally planned Tanaan and Hellfire Citadel to be Iron Horde themed, with HFC having all the remaining Iron Horde warlods as bosses, and Grom as the last boss.

Probably after you'd have dismantled the Iron Horde, Gul'dan and the Shadow Council would summon Archimonde in Shattarath or something, and the final raid would be stopping them. However, cutting the expansion short meant they had to combine the HFC raid and the Gul'dan/Legion subplot together, resulting in a rather rushed and unsatisfactory ending (for one, everybody just kind of forgets all the horrible things Grom did cause he helped them kill some demons, and now the orcs are draenei are apparently friends).

>>48407618
Hum. In that case maybe Shattrath was supposed to originally be the final raid. With Hellfire Citadel being the final battle against the Iron horde.

I really hope we get the post mortem on WoD someday. Or even better, a post-mortem on Titan, and what effects it had on other blizzard games.

>>48404899

Even as we get into what could potentially be the LAST world of warcraft expansion two things still plague my mind to this day:

-What do you think is going on in Outland right now?

-What happened with Kul'tiras?

>>48416189
>-What do you think is going on in Outland right now?
Remaining orcs, draenei, broken and arakkoa enjoying some peace in between nervously eyeing the edge of oblivion and wondering if the land is a little smaller than it was yesterday.
>-What happened with Kul'tiras?
Last we heard it got dragged out to sea during the Cataclysm. But they're a naval power, so they're probably fishing for sustenance while sending out ships to chart where the fuck they are.

>>48416247
Oh, and the ogres in Ogri'la are probably pretty content, too.

>>48416247
Presumably a naval power would know to look up if they wanted to chart their position.

>>48416189

>-What do you think is going on in Outland right now?
I could ask the same thing about Northrend frankly. Its especially odd considering how "resources are dwindling" was such a important plot point in MoP.

I imagine the remaining Draenei and Orcs are trying to make the place somewhat livable now that the legion and Illidan have both been kicked off the place.

>What happened with Kul'tiras?

They're probally doing fine. According to the official wiki they are still a part of the alliance. So i imagine they might be Azeroth's main source of boats.

>>48416119
That would mean Blizzard would admid thed did something wrong, and their flagship game isn't perfect.

I think getting all rare raid drop mounts from a single visit to their respective bosses is more propable.

>>48416309
It can happen then. Got 3 of them in one week before.

>>48416309
Eh. It could happen one day. Maybe long after wow has finnaly ended. Or perhaps some ex-blizzard employee might go on a huge anonymous rant someday.

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I really hope that the second Warcraft Chronicles book can fix WoD by finally clearly explaining what the fuck was meant to happen in Draenor

>>48416189
>last
lolno

>>48416650
Wow is like twelve year old already. There's stuff in the game that was made when the twin towers where still standing.

For fuck's sake. I remember Wrath reviews complaining about how the old game was getting old. And that was 8 freaking years ago.

>>48416711
>There's stuff in the game that was made when the twin towers where still standing.
Your timeline seems to have forgot 3 years.

>>48416726
The game was released in 2004 yes. But it was announced as early as 2 september 2001. Which means its actually plausible that there really is stuff in the game made while the twin towers where still standing.

>>48406589
Watch and weep, my friend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teSSu9aHSXc

>>48406589
I loved the concept and look of Vash'ir, but I can see why they're probably not going to do anything like that again. It looked gorgeous, but is probably the single worst zone to play. It's a bitch to navigate, and god help you if you play a pet class since the pet's pathfinding gets all fucked up.

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all i hope for legion is for maiev to stay alive. i dont think my heart can take her dying

>>48416726
WoW's development was almost simultaneous with WC3s. I'm pretty sure they use the same mapping engine.

I think you can find some E3 2001 videos showing off Elwynn, Westfall, Duskwood, and STV. The orc and human models were also radically different. Stuff like some of the Defias models (the thin guys), peasants, and the fat town magister model were also from that era.

What do night elves think about Druids from other races?

>>48417693
I don't think they've realized worgen exist yet.

And given that Blizz all but abandoned them after cata besides Genn, they probably won't realize any time soon.

one thing I find interesting about Warcraft is that despite all the times the various races have stopped the world from ending, there's still places where on a local level, the apocalypse has already happened, but there's still people trying to pick up the pieces and hold it together. It's a neat aesthetic

>>48417144
ugu

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REMINDER: Garrosh did NOTHING wrong!

>>48418527
Garrosh did a number of things wrong, especially the part where he got his fellow members of the Horde to rebel against him when the Alliance was beating down his door.

>>48418562
They were set against him from the very start.
>Sylvanas
Was starting to do the same shit the Lich King did. Got pissy when Garrosh called her out on her BS and marked her as a cunt.
>Cairne and Baine Bloodhoof
Cairne and his druids went to a meeting with the night elf druids. A meeting that was cut short by an ambush. When they woke up from the attack, someone claimed they saw an Orc in the attackers midst. Instead of investigating it, he immediately assumed it was Garrosh and went to challenge him. Turns out it was the Twilight Hammer later on. Cairne died due to his own narrow-minded view of Garrosh and the poison from Magatha Grimtotem. Cairne's death caused Garrosh to grief and feel it was unjust. Since Garrosh had technically killed his father, Baine's stance became biased.
>Vol'jin
Thrall had promised Garrosh that Vol'jin would be there to help him, but the Troll did no such thing and immediately went against Garrosh instead of helping him.

Garrosh did nothing wrong.

>>48418852
>Cairne died due to his own narrow-minded view of Garrosh and the poison from Magatha Grimtotem.
and Magatha Grimtotem was able to act against Carine because he spent all of vanilla - The Shattering ignoring all of her shit even though he knew (or at least should have known) that she was complicit in everything the Grimtotem did

>>48418852
To be fair he had to have been pretty irresponsible or incompitent to have had his weapon tampered with by Magatha without knowing or realizing.

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The hardest part of planning my AU campaign is wanting to get to Outland as soon as possible, but also wanting to explore the differences in Azeroth.

Campaign planning leaves me very torn.

>>48405997

More or less. Zandalar sunk in Cata, they're all on a massive warfleet now. It's a pretty cool concept.

>>48418927
>AU
AU?

>>48418886
Garrosh had no skill in political intrigue. The best he new about Magatha was that she didn't like Cairne. And despite his combat and military prowess, he still had an honorable idea of how war and how dealing one's enemies should be conducted; upfront with no subterfuge.

From his view, the tauren were an honorable race, and Magatha was also a shaman, so he had no reason to think she would try to defile traditions and honor.

>>48418852
>Sylvanas
While she's building towards being the Lich Queen, it doesn't help to demand that she takes her finite troops and assault the more fortified nation on the planet, unprovoked.
>Cairne and Baine Bloodhoof
See >>48418884 and >>48418886
>Vol'jin
Vol'jin straight up told Garrosh that he was fucking up royally and that if Garrosh ever got to the point that everyone wanted him dead, Vol'jin would be the one to put him down. It was a warning of just how much Garrosh was fucking up. He got put in charge and almost immediately pissed off half the Horde.

And just for a bit of garnish, Garrosh "Diplomacy" Hellscream insults every non-orc horde race in the pandaren introduction. In the same room as every ambassador from said races.

Dude basically wanted everyone to hate him at that point. He only cared about orcs, regardless of his claims about all of his actions being for the Horde.

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>>48405997

>>48418977
Alternate universe. Basically an excuse to tweak the lore in places. And to cover up the fact I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of it.

Also a means to have the players' decisions actually change shit.

>>48419021
Ahhh okay.
Yeah I don't see why you'd not want to change it from the official canon as messed up as it is now.

Could someone post the webm of Garithos casting a flaming swastika? I need it for reasons.

>>48418977
Alternate Universe.

>>48418927
Why'd you set Oshu'gun and the Throne of Kil'jaeden on their own separate islands? Did you keep the Ruhkmar Arrakoa, and how is that affecting things? What's going on in Ashran? And why'd you rearrange Netherstorm a bit?

I'm not trying to be nitpicky, just genuinely curious about your design choices.

>>48419014
What're those islands directly to the south of Northrend? Strand of the Ancients?

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>>48419036
Fear not my friend

>>48419021
Why would you bother tweaking the lore if you don't know it

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>>48419066
Ah shoot, I'm both not posting the right picture and realizing that I don't have it

>>48419066
classic Garithos

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Because the Worgen are ignored by Blizzard: How would you continue the story?

Give us Gnomeregan back already.

>>48419051
>What're those islands directly to the south of Northrend?
hm, I think I've seen the name for those islands before.
I'll try looking it up.

>>48419038
>Why'd you set Oshu'gun and the Throne of Kil'jaeden on their own separate islands?
>And why'd you rearrange Netherstorm a bit?
Primarily just to shake up the layout, so it's immediately noticeable that things aren't quite the same as canon.

Though for the Throne, it's so the party doesn't try rock climbing their way up there to punch Kazzak in the second session.

I also have more land around in general, with Ogri'la being significantly larger, and the two forge camps flanking it being moved to one large one to the north.

There's more uncorrupted water in this version of Outland, so the naga aren't able to control the lion's share of it. So Illidan's hold on Outland isn't quite as strong, either.
>What's going on in Ashran?
It's at a lower elevation from the main land, and is drifting under Hellfire.
>Did you keep the Ruhkmar Arrakoa, and how is that affecting things?
There are some around, but Skyreach has been pretty wrecked, so they aren't a dominant power. They still have solid control of their immediate surroundings, but lack the resources to project their power outside of Arak. They're probably getting into skirmishes with Skettis.

>>48419105
>>48419051
Dragon Isles apparently.
Thought they were something else though.

>>48419066
>Why would you bother tweaking the lore if you don't know it
I read the lore, I know the major parts of the lore. But as I said, I don't have encyclopedic knowledge: It's the details that can be harder to remember. Being able to handwave 'some details are different' keeps sessions moving so I don't have to dig through a wiki to find out what obscure lore bit my players are bringing up.

>>48419085
Retake Gilneas. But that'll never happen if Kosak can help it.

>>48419204
>B-but my Battle for Gilnaes BG!
>The one no one bothers playing.

>>48418852
Vol'jin did not go against Garrosh until the assassination attempt by Garrosh

>>48418976
No it started sinking after cata but for all we know king Rastakhan could've pulled some big mojo outta his ass

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>>48417144
I have a similar case with Jaina. I'm very worried they're going to push her down the Has Gone Crazy And Must Be Killed™ path, because there appear to be signs of it.

I'll be even moreso annoyed if Sylvanas gets some kind of redemption arc and Jaina gets killed instead of getting one of her own.

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>>48419832
>Rastakhan could've pulled some big mojo outta his ass

>>48419813
Their relationship didn't get off to a good start, with Garrosh trying to throw his weight around, and Voljin threatening to assassinate him.

>>48406037
Delete them

They are for edgy teenagers Who dont like forsaken

>>48419844
Le powerfull hate™ has made her gone crazy™
How can someone want war in our world??? She must be stopped!

>>48420433
>removing Best Warchief

Get a load of this guy. Doesn't he know Darkspear never die?

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>>48420470
>>48420521

Ups i was referring to >>48419085

>image.jpg

>>48420470
nah she's been corrupted

What if the Horde won the second war?

>>48421935
Demons show up and take over, as was the plan.

>>48421935
Depends on exactly how things would've went. Assuming everythign goes as in canon except Orgrim's forces win the large battle near Blackrock Mountain and break the Alliance forces, Orgrim probably would've continued waging war againt the Alliance until he feels the orcs have enough land to live in and their enemies are so broken that they can never rise up to oppose them (and until all the orcs unable to conrol their fel-induced bloodlust would've either calmed the fuck down or died from being repeatedly thrown at anything that looked at Orgrim funny). After that, he'd probably want the orcs to return to the way of life they had on Draenoer before the whole demonblood and warlock business (Orgrim never drunk demonblood himself, and was not exactly fond of Gul'dan and his schenanigance). Alliance would end up shattered and nearly extreminated, with survivors likely having to flee the Eastern Kingdoms, perhaps ending in Northrend or something (I think Northerend's existence was known to humans; Kalimdor's was't except to the elves, and even they probably wouldn't have been able to navigate there). Maybe the Legion could make use of the desperate survivors, (Doomhammer-controlled orcs would no longer serve the Legion), offering them power to regain their homeland. Terenas becomes the Lich King and leads the Scourge against the Horde, assisted by the members of the Shadow Council that escaped Orgrim's purges, who take on the role of Cult of the Damned in the MU?

>>48422015
That'd likely only happen immediately if Gul'dan doesn't fuck off with his forces to get himself killed in the Tomb of Sargeras, and if Orgrim doesn't kill him the moment the war is won. WC2-era Horde isn't under Legion control quite the same was as WC1 one, where the Shadow Council was pulling all the strings. Orgrim had most of the SC purged, and only kept Gul'dan around because his magic was too useful to get rid of outright. He certainly had no love for the warlocks and kept them on a very tight leash. The whole reason why Gul'dan headed to the Tomb of Sargeras before Horde had won (which might've been much more likely had he not ran off with a signifigant amount of their forces before a decisive battle) was that he knew that once Orgrim no longer needed his magic to fight the Alliance, he'd be as good as dead.

>>48417662
Yel, there was an Alpha era orc with thicker tusks in Stockades until Cataclysm, there were also the thin, roguish defias and some of the townspeople plus the peasants.

>>48422193
It's true that the Orcs are their own entities by the time of the second war, but Azeroth was always the prize for the Legion, and it is now significantly weakened. I figured that was the goal.

>>48422015
Only way for demons to enter is if Doomhammer never attains power. He only made his move against Blackhand and his Shadow Council backers when Gul'dan was incapacited after trying to find the location of the Tomb of Sargeras from Medivh when he was killed.

And even then, Doomhammer only was able to find the Shadow Council because he was able to torture Garona into revealing their locations.

No matter what though, I see Gul'dan dying to the demons in Tomb, unless not having to deal with pursuing Blackrock forces means he was able to put the full forces of the Stormreaver and Twilight's Hammer into exploring the Tomb. In which case he claims the Eye of Sargeras.

>>48421935
Mankind would be destroyed. Gul'dan would get even more powerful from the Tomb of Sargeras, summon the Legion. Orcs + Legion would invade Kalimdor, Cenarion would get killed by fel orcs, elves without allies won't be able to stop Archimonde on Hyjal. Archimonde is empowered, propably summons Sargeras or something, Azeroth gets destroyed. Fel Horde continues to ravage hundreds of other worlds

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>>48419036

>>48422320
They'd show up eventually. They always do. But with Gul'dan dead and Doomhammer in control they'd need to find some alternative way to enter, because Orgrim sure as hell wouldn't invite them to the party. Corrupting the remains of the Alliance by promising them power to fight the Horde seems like a good choise. And if Draenor still blew up in this timelines, they'd likely still make Ner'zul the Lich King and use the Scourge to pawe the way, except against Orgrim's Horde instead of Lordaeron.

>>48422373
kek.

>>48422548
how would they even show up?
there were a few entities that were capable of summoning archimonde, and only gul'dan was the capable orc.

>>48422113
>>48422548
That would be a very weird warcraft 3 campaign.

>>48423205
Gul'dan was the most powerfur, but I doubt he was the only one. It would just be harder. The right tools (Medivh's spellbooks) seems more important than the right spellcaster. Gul'dan was powerful enough to do it without needing such crutch.

Some human survivor, desperate to find anything to fight against the Horde. If Kel'thuzad was capable of summoning Archimonde with the right tools, other mages certainly were too.

Another orc warlock. Even if Gul'dan is dead, the Legion's existence is already known. Rend may enlist some warlock's help in his quest for vengeance against Doomhammer for killing his father... and it's in Legion's best interest to help the warlock to become powerful enough to summon Archimonde. Stormreaver had some survivors, so did Twillight's Hammer, including Cho'gall (though their masters were retconned to be Old Gods instead of demons in WoW, and retconned again to have them hostile against each other in Chronicles)

>>48424257
>Some human survivor, desperate to find anything to fight against the Horde.

That's so devious, I love it. Forcing humans to become so desperate their magi summon demons. Especially since the Council of Tirisfal is dead at that point because of Sargeras-posessed Medivh.

>>48419868
My favourite bit of lore before it got retconned was the troll legends that told about the travelers (titans, travelers because they came did their thing then left and came back again to fight the old gods) because it told it like the trolls were from primordial azeroth and not titan shaped azeroth

Lei Shen did nothing wrong, he was just cleaning up the messes the titans left behind

>>48424257
kel'thuzad was a very powerful lich though

>>48424257
>(though their masters were retconned to be Old Gods instead of demons in WoW,
it wasn't a retcon, Cho'gall is just an insane nihilist who follows whoever he thinks will give him the power he needs to bring about the apocalypse. In WoD it's void creatures, in WC2 it's the Legion, in Cata it was the Old Gods

Can Pandarens, Worgen and Goblins be turned undead? I havent run into any in game, I know there are Goblin zombies in the starting zone but they weren't scourge type undead.

>>48425772
Kel'Thuzad was a human archmage, one of the council of six of Dalaran. That places him as able to hold his own against the likes of Kael'Thas, Korialstrasz, Rhonin, pre-Naaru Khadgar, etc. before being pumped full of sunwell juice and whatever power-ups Ner'zhul bestowed upon him.

Even then, he still needed the good stuff from Dalaran before summoning Archie. Gul'dan, Medivh, and current Khadgar are just too powerful compared to other archmages, to be q h.

>>48426922
Wolfman is specifically immune to the plague (auto-raise after death), but they haven't elaborated on whether or not their corpses could be reanimated by a powerful scourge necromancer (liches, val'kyr, high ranking cultists). I'd guess not.

Gobbos are kind of a meme race in their current incarnation and definitely can be scourged, but the playable Kezanite gobbos weren't present prior to the fall of the Lich King.

Pandas can be scourged, they just weren't present other than Chen before the fall of the Lich King.

>>48426973

How are Worgen DKs explained then?

>>48427046
they were the Sons of Arugal

>>48424257
>including Cho'gall (though their masters were retconned to be Old Gods instead of demons in WoW, and retconned again to have them hostile against each other in Chronicles)
Nah, MU Cho'Gal just converted to the Old Gods because they seemed like a better option after MU Gul'dan fell.

>>48424257
>>48425772
>>48426973
Remember,. the Legion managed to deploy the Frozen Throne onto Azeroth along with a few Dreadlords on their own, and also managed that invasion where they summoned the Avatar of Sargeras to posses Aegwyn's ovaries without any specific mentions of how they made it to Azeroth in such numbers.

And in Legion the Gul'dan's original portal doesn't require the three key items (He doesn't have two of them till the Destro Warlock questchain set AFTER the big invasion, and even before he had the Nightwell to open the main portal he still summoned enough demons to scare the Nightborne into surrendering said nightwell despite having it power a shield that survived the fucking sundering.

And Slyvanus's Val'kyr could NOT raise Worgen, some of them in the DK starting area could but only after better Necromancers did the first ressurection.


>>48427046
They were raised by better Necromancers than the Val'kyr, some were personally raised by the Lich King.

>>48427130
Ergo all worgen DKs were filthy ganking bastards.

>>48427180
>Ergo all worgen DKs were filthy ganking bastards.
as expected of the degenerates who play them

>>48421935
Going by the campaign then Gilneas, Quel'Thalas, Khaz Modan, Gnomeregan, Kul tiras and Northeron/Aerie Peak are still standing.
The fight isn't really over.

>>48427850
And going by the novelization's main turning point in the war Dalaran also survives since in the book they his Capital City on the way back down from Quel'Thalas (Which they only managed to push into the magical shieldwall that wasn't broken till Arthas)

>>48427046
Any gobbo or wolfman death knights belong to the steamwheedle cartel or the (WotLK retconned) Sons of Arugal respectively and have no ties to the Horde or Alliance proper.

Honestly the aforementioned races should not have access to that class, especially the Worgen considering the reason the Gilneans chose to become furries was specifically to stump Sylvanas's weaponization of the Val'kyr. It can be presumed that the original Worgen were also immune to ressurection.

We haven't really seen any powerlevel comparisons of the Nathrezim. When they do fight, it's always against warrior/hero types rather than casters. In addition, they just job (on purpose) most of the time. Arthas vs MG, Illy vs Tich, Sylv vs Bal etc

Are Stormwind and Gilneas the only human kingdoms left?

>>48428107
Not exactly, the friend you execute as a gobbo DK mentions the Steamwheedles but doesn't say which cartel you in PARTICULAR were part of, just that you had dealings with the Steamwheedles.

>>48428265
Kul Tiras, Dalaran, are fine. And Stromgarde is in the same hole that Gilneas is in.

>>48428107
The Dwarves and Gnomes were also immune to Val'kyr resurrection. The Val'kyr simply can't revive anyone that isn't a Vrykul or pure Human.

>>48428312
Sister Svalna can raise Blood Elf/Dwarf/Forsaken in ICC though

Not to be pedantic, just remembered that

>>48428480
Maybe she was just better than the ones that survived?

A Classical Necromancer as well as a Val'kyr.

In terms of role playing, what WoW race has the best starting zone quest line? I really enjoyed Pandaren, as hokey as it was, the part where I traveled to Stormwind with the rest of the Tushui, you really felt like some outsider in a strange place.

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>>48418527
Actually, it was Lor'Themar who did nothing wrong.

>>48428741
pandarens probably have the best. It's the only one with a coherent story other than the Cata races, and Gilneas sucks and goblins are a meme

>yfw Azeroth would benefit from the Internet

Even with teleporting mages, somehow news always moves too slow for people to have even 20% of the information they need to make the right decisions.

>>48429212
literally who?

>>48428741
the old starting experiences were god tier. It was like your average run of the mill RPG experience where you start small by killing random beasties and kobolds, and the world was far more coherent then.

>>48429927
I liked the more subdued feeling, though I didn't really like how copypaste they seemed.

>>48429927
Oh, just Regent Lord of Quel'Thalas, leader of the Sin'dorei, and tied with Baine Bloodhoof for the title of sanest, most sensible racial leader in the entire Horde.

>>48430022
>most sensible leader in the horde
Its like saying the best behaved tard in the special ed class.
>>48429980
Hey, you start your adventure by doing simple stuff. Also the game was designed around killing small things then.

>>48430292
>he says when Greymane's wasting time REEEEEEEEEEing at Sylvanas during an invasion by the Legion, Gelbin and Moira are irrelevant, Tyrande and Malfurion are getting rekt by the Nightmare, Anduin's proven from day one that he can't fill his dad's shoes in Stormwind, Jaina is a Sith Lord, and Velen is also irrelevant

Why are all the characters that /do/ things idiots?

>>48429905

Yeah I know right? I'm playing a DK now and everyone around me talks as if Arthas is alive.

>>48430292
I'm pretty sure the human, Orc/Troll, and Undead areas outright share the same WALL SHAPE at the exit of their 1-5 "Cradle" zones.

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>>48430334
>wanting sylvanas to gain more power while everyone else dies
Genn is right.
>>48430352
I wish he was.

>>48430354
eh, all of the starting places are enclosed areas with high level elite guards. Might as well complain that all shapes in the game then were lumpy polygons.

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>>48430659
It was just kinda weird to have the same exact brackety shaped walls on so many zones.

Even though the Cata quests do hype you up a bit too much (In that in many of them your level 5 graduation is roflstomping a major threat alongside your faction leader) they did offer a lot more variety in quests.

>>48428741
I like worgen start, both for the dark atmosphere and the feeling of desperation as everything goes to hell around you. The end with the night elves felt somewhat rushed, though.

It's annoying if you'd have to do it more than once... and it's not honest comparison, old starter zones designers lacked some tools like phasing... and Blizzard didn't used those toolss when they updated other starter zones. Pandaren start was a good too, more lighthearted. Goblins are a joke and I hate them, so that kinda makes me prejudiced against their start.

From older zones, I like draenei. It captures the feeling of survival on an unfamiliar world well, and the interaction with natives, old enemies, and a the consequences of their crash. Belven start was a little worse, but the Ghostlands part was good too. I wish to see updated starter zone, perhaps with the use of phasing, but that won't happen, and it won't have the same feel for draenei... mostly I'd like to see how are belves faring after removing Scourge and destroying trolls twice.

Vanilla zones... nelves. Best music, nice atmosphere, it overall feels more peaceful. Also, nostalgia, because nelf hunter was my first character way back in vanilla (not counting playing human mage to level 5 when visiting a friend and seeing WoW for the very first time)

>>48430334
>Why are all the characters that /do/ things idiots?

because otherwise, Blizzard wouldn't be able to keep status quo and would have to fragment or destroy one (or both) factions

>>48428741
Others have already made good arguments for the best, so I'll point out the worst:
Blood Elves and Draenei, tied, because Blizzard is full of hacks who refused to update the entire zones of two playable races for no good reason despite overhauling the entirety of the rest of the world, making those two (four, technically) starting zones stick out like a sore thumb of outdates 2007 designs and textures.
I like them better than the revamped zones honestly but since they're all part of the same game, the painfully obvious whiplash of disparity between map/gameplay designs and quality of textures between the BE/Draenei starting zones and the rest of the world ruins it.

>>48430659
the guards are less relevant now, when ganker can just fly in the zone

>>48430693
Well, the shape is good from defensive standpoint... it breaks charges, forces the enemy to slow down and divide their forces and it blocks the line of sight to whatever is on the other side of the wall

>>48430776

Not Goblin? The whole Lost Isles thing was tedious as hell.

>>48430693
well it is a good shape for fortification

>>48430334
Velen is prepping to invade Argus with the Exodar and Anduin's actually being pretty badass.

>>48430782
I like it even if it's a tad tedious, I just fucking love shipwreck stories, same reason I loved Pandaria.

>>48430782
At least it meshes with the rest of the world from a gameplay/world interaction perspective.

>>48430809
Also most of the textures in the main race zones are just as old as the BE zones.

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I haven't played WoW in years but I follow the news. Is the Burning Legion that is invading Azeroth thanks to WoD Gul'dan the 'real' Legion that was defeated in WCIII or the WoD alternate timeline version?

>>48430824
Ohhh boy.


They're the same legion according to a fucking RETARDED tweet.

Literally, all demons are unique across all timelines.

It's the dumbest fucking shit, I'd rather the two legions have just made an alliance.

(Also I miss Vanilla/BC Kazzak, fewer pixels, better art design, his WoD version is fucking disgusting.)

>>48428741
I'm going to play devil's advocate here. And say i actually really liked the Goblin starting zone. It was creative and very fun. Ending kind of sucked though.

Vanilia orc starting experience probally comes close. but i know that's just pure nostalgia speaking.

>>48430824
There's only one Legion, Twisting Nether touches all realities and timelines. Which is bullshit that messes with some of the setting logic and also makes some of the biggest events kinda irrelevant (Grom killing Mannoroth and nelves sacrificing their immortality to stop Archimonde in WC3? Guess what, both bastards were just sent back to Nether without any lasting harm)

>>48427850
Actually, going by warcraft 2 orc campaign. Quel'thalaz has been destroyed, and khaz modan has been completely occupied.

>>48430888
>Quel'thalaz has been destroyed
No you don't even touch Silvermoon.
Just go in and destroy a castle in the border forest.

Ironforge is never taken in the campaign.

Gilnean worgen < nightmare worgen summoned from another world

>>48431035
eh. yeah.
Even though we get the closure to the entire worgen arc in legion, it somehow seems a lot cheaper for some reason than the truncated thing we had in vanilla. There was something about travelling to another continent, meeting the people there, who lived under the shadow of the wolfmen and then you end up finding out what happened, and then you return.

>>48430886
I'm pretty sure that was already a thing before WoD. The twist of there being only one Legion though is bullshit, I agree.

>>48430963
Um. The mission in question is literally called "The Dead Rise as Quel'Thalas Falls". And the mission briefing makes it perfectly clear you're attacking the entire kingdom.

Because blizzard didn't want to design elven buildings just for one mission. The whole place just looked like a normal human base. But for all intent and purposes that was probally supposed to be silvermoon.

>>48430963
Oh. And Ironforge was indeed never taken. but the game did make it perfectly clear you pretty much occupied every part of khaz modan but Ironforge.

>>48431068
Honestly I would've prefered remnants of some worgen tribe to join the alliance to fight the forsaken after forsaken make a push on worgen "land" since the enemy of my enemy and that whole schtick would've been preferable over the "nah druid shit gone wrong"

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>>48431428
The orc campaign is not totally canon anyway

>>48431569
bruh

>>48430886

So Burning Legion = Chaos Daemons?

>>48431861
yeah. and the twisting nether is literally the warp insofar as time being wonky there.

>>48405243
...aaaand they still haven't finished repairing The Exodar!!!

This "high king" thing is fucking retarded

I find it a bit hard to believe Tyrande would yield authority to anyone

>>48430804
>Velen's going to space to fight demons

That sounds 3 kinds of sweet already.

>>48432437
Apparently they're supposed to get it fixed between Wod and Legion...Only for the Legion to show up and wreck it again. Which is what prompts Velen to go "fuck this shit" and prepare to go to space to kick Kil'jaeden's ass.

>>48430863
I'm hoping to all that is holy that they forget about that like they did Med'an, making it it exist in canon limbo. Because it just makes things a whole load of bunk. Like what if there was a timeline where Velen chose to become a demon? Or what if he becomes a Sargerei farther down the road?

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>>48433222
The name of the title itself is more the problem than anything, because it makes it sound like they're the leader of the whole Alliance. It should be Supreme Commander, like the old Alliance of Lordaeron days; more accurately denoting the figure in a position of military authority, but not head of government.

>>48434418
But we already have 5 million commanders.

>>48434449
that's why you need a Supreme Commander, so you know who's best

>>48434449
chinks only get to be garrison footmen.

>>48433222
They will make the alliance (and also the horde) into a single nation instead of an actual alliance

I dislike Wow lore more everyday

>>48435672
I would make a "Blizzard being political again" joke. but i feel that would be pointless.

Would/could Arthas and the Scourge have ever raised any minor race death knights? Azeroth is seriously stuffed to the brim with these extra factions, and while a furbolg would be a little ridiculous, there were plenty of gnolls, ogres, and other things in the Eastern Kingdoms when the Scourge were in full swing, right?

>>48436669
There are zombie murlocs in northrend

>>48436669
there were Scourged quilboar in Razorfen Downs and I think there were undead gnolls somewhere

>warcraft will never reset to pre-wc3 for an alternate future

Why even care
They're already ruining even that with their retarded brown orc shit retcon movie.

>>48436998
If they do more I will just pray they dont ruin the night elves

>>48437060
In my opinion WoW already ruined them.
Gender roles disappeared overnight, and they became totally nice guys to fit the alliance rather than the crazy xenophobes they were.

>>48434418
You don't love your high king?

>>48437184
I'm fine with Gender roles disappearing. Since i'm all but certain that would have caused some really fucking stupid "controversy" to happen. And the less we have of that in this world the better.

>>48436669
>while a furbolg would be a little ridiculous

If the idea of an army of Scourge-powered bear-knights doesn't make you fill your pants you have a heart of iron (or particularly serendipitous constipation).

>>48437184
>crazy xenophobes
Were they ever this? They got on perfectly well with the furbolgs before they got corrupted, not to mention all the sapient creatures they have on their side, like dryads/keepers and forest giants.

Keeping in mind their history with the Burning Legion (with satyrs STILL being an active nuisance), and the fact that the orcs were still fel-tainted when they first encountered them pillaging their territory and killing wisps, is it THAT crazy that they went on the attack?

>>48437514
They were crazy xenophobes, not racists.
All of these creatures were already part of ashenvale.

>>48436669
I've not seen them as DKs, but there are Gnolls, Murlocs, and Quilboar in scourge forces.

>>48437824
murghouls were a dumb concept that felt like a joke.

>>48437824
There are scourge aligned quilboar in the razorfen down/kraul dungeon, can't remember which one. There are also undead gnolls in Trisfal Glades as well as undead murlocs (murghouls) in Trisfal Glades. Not sure if the latter two are aligned with the scourge or just undead.

>>48439002
They're all scoruge allied in both dungeons, but Downs is the one with actual zombie piggus.

>>48439267
>piggus
this word made me smile

daily reminder that the mogu are the master race and the Legion never could have invaded if they were in charge instead of degenerate psuedo-trolls

>>48436854
Also in Ghostlands. Interesting fact was that while they could've been raised as undead, for some reason they couldn't be controlled afterwards.

>>48437424
I like all the High Kings just fine, I just don't like the name of the title. It's a misnomer.

>>48437514
>>48437652
I wouldn't call them "crazy xenophones"; it was really just the Sentinels that were like that. The druids seemed much more even-headed. When Malfurion was first awakened, he questioned Tyrande's zeal against the outsiders and then accepted her explanation because he figured she knew more than him on the subject.

>>48439801
>degenerate pseudo trolls?
Oh elves

>>48441681
The druids weren't supposed to be involved in political matters most of the time. They're the spiritual leaders.
Either way Tyrande represented what was probably the majority of the night elves' opinion, and they went from that to everyone being nice in the same generic "alliance flavor". Tyrande herself in WoW is the greatest example of this.

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>>48436669
There is evidence of at least one ogre death knight.

>>48443055
that's pretty terrifying desu

>>48444000
Double-trips confirm, Ogre Death Knights are 3spooky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmndxoF74qQ&feature=youtu.be

classic shit

>>48445100
>tfw Legion won't have a troll raid where the final boss is a council fight against Drakuru, Gara'jal the Spiritbinder and skeleton Zul'jin,

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>>48434418 Lothar was the top Alliance military commander because he had zero blood affiliation to any of the human kingdoms. And he answered to a council of the 'real' Alliance leaders. Lothar had to play politican to appease the people writing the checks like a CEO appeasing stock-holders. Making a faction leader the SAC invites accusations of bias and favortism, plus none of the members were willing to submit military forces to another leader.

Its not just the name, its how its shown in game. For all bets and purposes, the "High King" is the blue Warchief in game. Making twitter posts and properly describing it in novels and comics won't correct it to people who only play the game. The dialogue at the end of the Siege of Ogrimmar was not in the last version of the PTR, it was literally a last minute fix in response to Alliance posters going nuclear over Varian seemingly making decisions for the rest of the Alliance alone or overriding other faction leaders.

>>48448211
the elves only helped because lothar was the last of the strom bloodline.

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>>48449334
Yes, but he wasn't heir or ruler to any of the kingdoms who had a seat in the council.

The Elves gave zero fucks about the 'alliance', and only did the bare minimum to fulfill their oath to Lothar's bloodline. They were part of the original alliance only by technicality.

>>48449351
yeah. that is true. they also wanted to remain in the alliance provided the orcs were killed.
Varian was a faggot. He got 2 chances to destroy the horde and he dropped them both.

>>48448211
>Making twitter posts and properly describing it in novels and comics won't correct it to people who only play the game.

This is true about anything. It would be nice if Chroicles would offer a compilation of lore... but lore that's available for players in game, not a ton of bullshit pulled out of Kosak's ass.

Or bullshit like having important parts of story available only for certain players. I'm filthy casual now, I can't just afford to spend so much time in the game anymore (and my computer having more trouble running each expansion after WotLK doesn't help). I've been in Highmaul, seen Cho'gall escape at the beginning and then disappear. It took me half I year before I've learned he was killed in mythic. There has been nothing in game indicating what happened to him, I was expecting him to show up in a later raid the whole time.

>>48449334
weren't the Trollbanes the direct descendants of Arathor?

>>48449351
>They were part of the original alliance only by technicality.
I liked how before Cata there were members of the Alliance that were only there by alliance to one member. The Wildhammer dwarves specifically never cared for humanity, but had an unbreakable bond with the elves that led them into the Second and Third Wars

>Arthas names his horse Invincible
>then accidentally kills it
bravo Golden

>>48449334
>>48451192
The Trollbanes are descendants of one of the Arathor Vassals.

>>48453213
It foreshadows his later fuckups. Like pottery.

>>48453213
Missed opportunity to make invisible mount.

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So Anduin is going to stay as priest? I really wanted him to become paladin/holy warrior.

>>48453408
there's prophesies from the books that show he's going to become more paladin-y but we won't know if he goes full paladin yet

>>48451192
Didn't the Wildhammer also help out Kul Tiras during the second war, when the horde navy was wrecking their shit?

>>48453834
yes, but the WC2 manual specifically points out that they consider themselves enemies of the Horde, not friends of humanity

>>48451192
>>48453834
>>48454065
Though they did start associating more with Humans and their Bronzebeard cousins and find their position in the alliance quite nice.

>>48454095
by the time that vanilla WoW rolled around yeah. When you have orcs, undead and demons to compare them to, it turns out that humans aren't *that* bad

Reminder that Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.

>>48454277
Lordaeron belongs to the Amani

>>48454333
No, Quel'thalas belongs to the Amani.

>>48453408
They save a class change for him till they come up with a new holy warrior.
Zealot or something.

>>48454346
everything that doesn't belong to the Drakkari, Gurubashi or Farraki belongs to the Amani

it makes me angry every time I think of how terrible Arthas is in Wrath

>>48455115
At least he wasn't deathwing in Cata.

>>48443055
This once again proves how stupid Arthas plan in Wrath actualy was. He could have either done his very stupid and overly complicated plan. Or he could have simply just created more Ogre death knights and stomped everybody.

>>48455313
>implying any character got worse than the contrast between WC3 Arthas and "haha I was only pretending to be retarded, wait Tirion fuck off I wasn't ready. Do-over!"

>>48455382
>VARYAN LET ME MELEE RUSH THAT TEMPLE WITH MY ARCHERS REEE

>>48455442
Tyrande was always retarded, very nearly grom-tier.

>>48455442
You are exaggerating, right? Right?

>>48454441
Zul'Farrak was Gurubashi territory until the Sundering cut them off.

>>48455569
Not by TOO much. She wanted to force the Orcs out of a temple quickly and Varian wanted to wait and build a fuckton of traps.

How long until the big Reboot ala Star Trek is coming? The Lore of World of Warcraft is just fucked.

>>48455814
Not for a while, if the WoW Chronicle has set things in stone for a while.

>>48455569
>VARYAN THEY ARE CALLING US COWARDS WE HAVE TO ATTACK REEEE

50 000 year old strategist, priestess, and in general badass huntress would totally do that, guys. Stop being unrealistic.

>>48455927
I want to roll a forsaken in an upcoming tabletop game
suggest me a fluffy class.
no dark priest.

>>48456108
Lightslayer

>>48456052
She was a moron in WC3, I don't care how old the lore says she is, she's always acting like a retard when we see her, ergo she's a fucking retard who spent too long fighting vastly outnumbered clans of Satyr in territory she knew intimately.

>>48456108
Warrior. Be a former footman pulled out of a grave from second war, be racist against orcs and trolls, and really suspicious of any kind of warlock.

>>48456148
Varyan is so cool right? Why they dont just make humans rule all the alliance ?lol

>>48456251
Well, more room temperature than cool now.

Seeing as he's dead.

>>48456251
he isn't wrong whether you like Varian or not

>>48456284
The thing is, that "dungeon" was created to glorify Varyan, in despise of Tyrande.

Blizzard just pushes the agenda they want (and the one that makes activision shekkels rise)

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>>48456178
Not him, but what would the state of a human body be after almost 20 years of burial in Lordaeron soil? Depending on that, he might end up pic related.

>>48456178
Its cliche but sounds good, since the other players are going to roll special snowflakes for sure.

>>48456326
It was made to show Varian's character arc, and Tyrande's treatment was possible Kossak being a vindictive shit about all the people who complained he wrote nightelves like Mylune-tier hippie bimbos so he decided to undo Tyrande's own mellowing-out.

>>48456108
Warlocks seem pretty fluffy as the Forsaken are one of the few races (aside from Blood Elves, and that has probably changed since the Sunwell got fixed and they no longer need to feed on fel energy) that openly accept them. So Forsaken warlocks are kind of in a unique place in the society compared to the warlocks of other races, who tend to be at best shunned (and often killed if discovered).

>>48456847
warlocks and rogues are probably the best fluff classes for Forsaken

>>48456108
After doing the Forsaken cata stuff I really liked the idea of a forsaken officer in their military, but I'm not sure it's particularly flavourful unless you feel the forsaken through the grinding undead war thing

>>48456108
Be Zeliek.

>>48456108
Death knight. You were so awesome that killing and raising you only made you angry. Then you died again and you were re-raised as a death knight. As a result you reached a whole new level of anger previously thought un-achievable.

>>48455382
Don't get me wrong, it was stupid. That whole twist was one of those things that sounds clever in theory, but then you actually think about it and it all falls apart.

I still think its better than Deathwing in Cata. Who pretty much had nothing but generic doomsday villainy, and not even the fun kind.

>>48464484
but the thing is that Deathwing wasn't really a good character before. Going from "angry plot device" to "insane and angry plot device" isn't really bad character development compared to everything about Arthas' character being torn apart in favour of "hurr durr da light is wit us, Tirion da bes"

>>48456148
>varian was a oogabooga who fought in gladiator battles
>this makes him a better strategist than tyrande who has been leading sentinels in forests and jungles for thousands of years
A little patience was literally cancer, on par with anduin being a 7 year old politician who trusts everybody.

>>48465532
Fair enough i suppose. Altough i do still feel Cata Deathwing was a massive waste of a potentially good villain.

Really, the problem with Arthas is that blizzard had basically written themselves in a corner. They wanted the main villain to actually appear throughout the expansion. But they didn't want him to be the fantasy equivalent of Dr Claw(which he still more or less was).

>>48465945
All it needed to be was that when Arthas showed up, he was doing something else or killing major NPCs and we'd barely escape, or he'd kill us. None of this "Hmmm, now is not the time to kill you"

>>48465945
>Altough i do still feel Cata Deathwing was a massive waste of a potentially good villain.
he absolutely was, but because he was underused, not because he was badly written. Outside of Dragon Soul and the CoT heroics, I think he only appears in those two quests in the Badlands, one of which is a joke and the other is nonsensical. Spacing his appearences out would make him more impactful.

>Really, the problem with Arthas is that blizzard had basically written themselves in a corner. They wanted the main villain to actually appear throughout the expansion.
and I think they did that poorly too. He never shows up to observe you, he shows up to clean up after his own failures while acting inapporpriately tough. Fuck you Arthas, you don't get to be smug after I just singlehandedly foiled your third ultimate plan, go away

>>48404899
Are orcs actually dumber than humans, or is this propaganda? We know they are stronger, but what about their intelligence?

>>48466184
the IQ bell curve is shallower. There are more dumb as shit orcs than humans, but there are a pretty reasonable amount of above averagely intelligent orcs too

>>48466184
It seems like brown/redeemed orcs are only a little stupider than your average human, but the ones with fel still in their blood are shown to be complete dumb-asses. minus the few like Gul'Dan that retain their minds.

>>48466076
>he absolutely was, but because he was underused, not because he was badly written. Outside of Dragon Soul and the CoT heroics, I think he only appears in those two quests in the Badlands, one of which is a joke and the other is nonsensical. Spacing his appearences out would make him more impactful.

I feel he was both underused and poorly written. He should have been portrayed as this clever magnificent bastard manipulating the horde and the alliance to fight against each other, while also sabotaging their war efforts from within.
Kind of like Nefarian, but with less mad science and far more threatening and dangerous.

Instead his entire personality and role basically boiled down to "BURN EVERYTHING!" The old gods felt more like the real villains of that expansion. And they did even less than Deathwing.

>>48466068
That would have been better. Altough i do think you still need to be careful if you go down that path. Since you can only pull the "You just barley managed to get away" card so many times before it too starts to get kind of stupid and silly.

Personally i argue you should have just always seen him from a distance. Like Wrathgate.

>>48466320
>Personally i argue you should have just always seen him from a distance. Like Wrathgate.
this pretty much. I think the worst of his appearences is in Zul'drak, where even though his plan is supposedly to make sure we're truly capable of defeating him, he still shows up to kill Drakuru anyway, just because he feels like it

>>48466774
what happened in zul'drak

>>48466320
Wrathgate is a better implementation for sure. I was thinking in general we get Arthas maybe once a zone, if that, and it's at the culmination of the primary quest chain of that zone.

>>48466786
>the troll you helped escape from trappers in Grizzly Hills turns out to be a wannabe Scourge agent and gets superpowered by the LK
>he gets given command of a necropolis in Zul'drak
>when you kill the first Scourge in Zul'drak, a necklace drops that an Ebon Blade knight tells you would have mind controlled you into serving the Scourge
>instead you remove the curse and use it to pretend you're serving the Scourge
>you do a bunch of stuff to help Drakuru while subtly sabotaging the necropolis
>after Drakuru reveals his plan of creating Scourged dire trolls to you, you mind control one and force it to attack him
>after beating on him a bit, Arthas shows up, bitches and moans at Drakuru, kills him, then lets you live "as a reward for this amusing betrayal"
tl;dr, Arthas destroys his advance into a key front of the war for the lulz

>>48466880
It's a pretty stupid ending to a other wise pretty excellent quest line.

>>48466880
so, they turned the sweet king into a cartoon villain then?

>>48467486
pretty much. His entire plan is stupid as hell and falls apart as soon as you think about any detail

>>48467615
What was his plan?

>>48467679
his plan was to let an army of heroes from the Alliance or Horde attack Icecrown so he could kill them and raise them as death knights.

Basically, he lets all of his lieutenants and most of the Scourge in general get destroyed so he can raise 10 or 25 slightly above average death knights

>>48467779
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhckuhUxcgA

>>48467779
come on now. These 25 people were able to wreck his lieutenants, they wouldnt have been merely "above average" footsoldiers

>>48467851
>These 25 people were able to wreck his lieutenants,
together. I'm pretty sure 25 of any boss in ICC would be tougher to deal with than the PCs as death knights unless he pumps some serious power into them when they're raised

>>48467971
Its still the same people that are now highlord of the silver hand. Litterally the most powerful aventurers of azeroth and draenor

>>48467997
the adventurers themselves never get much stronger, they just keep stealing magic shit that powers them up. Sure a level 110 character would be better than anything in ICC, but Arthas literally can't even kill them with his ultimate death beam attack

also, should I make a new thread or are we too dead to bother now?

>>48467971
Which he almost certainly would have done. Really, the problem with his plan isn't that it wouldn't work. It almost certainly would have worked perfectly if it wasn't for Tirion's deus ex machina. The problem is that the plan is just pointless.

Wrath not only makes it clear that the scourge is completely 100% unstoppable. But also that the Lich king is so OP that he could have just killed everybody instantly with the same effort it takes to swath a fly. I personally have a huge issue with both of those things. But that doesn't change the fact that according to wrath, he could have easily crushed the horde and the alliance.

I mean, if he just wanted a few more very powerful generals before launching his invasion he could have just set a "trap" raid somewhere and then tried to kill everybody who fell for it. Which he could have done as early as the first raid tier. Hell, it probally would have made for a pretty intrestring raid. Waiting until almost all of his major generals are dead is just retarded.

>>48468179
I say make a new thread. There's still something resembling discussion going on. And with legion so close on the horizon we're probally going to get some new lore soon.

New Thread:
>>48468225
>>48468225