***Christian General Thread***

Why didn't it end on the cross? Why let this fallen world continue on for 2000 years?

>>36820636
Just what was predestined. There were still more people that needed to be saved. But it could have ended while he was on the cross just as easily it could have ended 2000 years later.

>>36820675

But why through faith? Why design a system that ensures that only 10% of the human population is ever going to saved? Most people are never going to come to Christ either through ignorance or incredulity. A far more effective system would be one that blanket saves every human soul automatically, at which point there's no more need for fallen bodies.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Here's a question I posed yesterday on /his/

How is God not evil when he created Satan knowing he would fall and create hell? Knowing Adam and Eve would fall and damn humans to hell? Isn't Satan a foil created to make God seem good?

>>36820804

God gave us and the angels free will. That's not the problem. The problem is why did God think it's a good idea to lock us in this cage with a literal child eating demon god for 6000 years?

>>36820752
>But why through faith?
Because human action is not pleasing to God. All of our works are done with the touch of sin and so are like filthy rags to God.

>We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

And so God does not look at our actions since even an evil person with evil intent could do that but rather into the heart of men. And those who truly seek him (fully) will find him.

>Why design a system that ensures that only 10% of the human population is ever going to saved?
This implies that God cares about numbers. IF there were 10/100 who were true followers of Christ, God would be content with that. He does not care quantity butt rather quality.

>A far more effective system would be one that blanket saves every human soul automatically
It wasn't in god's plan to save everyone. I can go into more detail if you wish but be prepared for an answer you might no like,

The bible is not the message of Jesus Christ. He didn't write it nor were the writers prophets. Most were not even apostles. In fact we don't even really know who wrote them.

>>36820804
>Isn't Satan a foil created to make God seem good?
No, those in the presence of God already know his goodness by experience and do not need to see an absolute evil who will they can use to compare god's goodness too. And God willing if we obey God then we too will get to experience that goodness and love.

>How is God not evil when he created Satan knowing he would fall and create hell?
It was out of their free will that they sinned, but all was predestined, and so it was all a part of his plan. I can go into more detail if you wish but be prepared for an answer you might no like.

>>36820902
What you discribe doesn't sound like a god who is caring nor perfect. A imperfect being creating imperfect things.

Why follow this god? To save yourself?

>>36820882
We chose the path of evil, and so we seek to return. Firstly, you have to remember that we are our own worst enemies and so once we go against our worldly desires and follow Christ, we then can escape this place that has the presence of Satan in it.

>>36820963
>The bible is not the message of Jesus Christ.
Yes, it is.

>He didn't write it nor were the writer's prophets. Most were not even apostles.
No, but it was his words and the writers where those who knew him very personally.

>In fact, we don't even really know who wrote them.
We have good reason to believe that they in fact did. I will love to get into a deeper discussion. Perhaps be more specific, and I can answer your question in more detail and give you evidence that we can be quite sure that the gospels were in fact written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. God willing.

>>36821036

Adam and Eve chose it, not me. No talking snake ever offered me some fruit.

The Bible says that God will wipe away all tears in Heaven. So people with severe mental trauma, PTSD, witnessing horrific shit, we're just going to forget all that? What about family members and loved ones who didn't make it to the afterlife, is He just going to obliterate our memories of them? If so, then why go through any of this shit at all? What's the point?

>>36821085
Go ahead, go deeper. We are listening.

>>36820963
>There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
>Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
All scripture is merely a vehicle to deliver the mystery of faith to the uninitiated. Ritual and iconography, the Church itself, are not God. Jesus Christ was God-incarnate, he came as his own messenger; the Gospel is his record.

>>36821036
What you describe doesn't sound like a god.
And so you can define what God is like?

>god who is caring nor perfect.
God has done nothing wrong. It was we who have gone away from God and deserted him. It was we who spat in the face of God and ridiculed him. The fact that he even saves anyone shows his love, mercy and patience. We all deserved hell, but instead, we were given another chance and on top of that the possibility of entering eternal life.

>A imperfect being creating imperfect things.
Yeah, that's right. But what God creates is perfect, but he can create things that can, later on, do imperfect things. God could even create an imperfect being if he wanted but he hasn't.

>Why follow this god? To save yourself?
Because he is the one true God and has given me the gift of faith and so now that I have seen the light I will spread it and whoever believes, by the grace of God, will be saved.

>>36821141
A "record" that we don't know who wrote of a person we don't know even existed.
A " record " that we don't have the originals of.

>>36821117
>Adam and Eve chose it, not me.
So? Have you sinned before? You sure have, and each time you have sinned, you have done the equivalent of eating from the tree. We are all weak and if Adam and Eve, the perfect creation of God and a representative of all humans fell, then what chance would you or I have?

>The Bible says that God will wipe away all tears in Heaven. So people with severe mental trauma, PTSD, witnessing horrific shit, we're just going to forget all that?
Not too sure about forget but now that you will be in the presence of God you will be free from all possible bad emotions and be experiencing the full grace of God. Bad emotions come from a lack of god's presence, and in heaven, there is none of that.

>What about family members and loved ones who didn't make it to the afterlife
That will be sad, but then again like I said no bad emotions. Firstly, you have to understand that we must love God more than we love God or even ourselves and so if we are in heaven and a loved one didn't make it, then we will understand that it was their choice, more so than Christians do here on earth. But like I said earlier all of those bad emotions wouldn't exist, and there will only be bliss.

>What's the point?
In order to enter heaven, you must first be cleansed of the sins because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

>>36821182
We were not given another chance. You said yourself it is predestined.

He created everything BUT perfect things. What creatures has he created that is perfect?

How do you know he is the one and true? Tell us your personal testimony.

>>36821133
Sure, read this anon. Your reactions might determine your relationship with God. >>36730229

>>36821345
1/3 of the angels were in heaven conspiring against god. Were they not being sinful just thinking about over throwing god?

>>If a man lust after a woman he has already committed adultery.

Does this kind of thing not go for them too?

>>36821361
>You said yourself it is predestined.
Yeah, as in god's knowledge of what man was to do with his free will.

>What creatures has he created that is perfect?
Angel, Adam and Eve. That is all we know of from scripture.

>Tell us your personal testimony.
Ok, sure but it'll just be a quick summary. I never thought much about religion until I turned about 12 and I dunno I just became more conscious of these stuff. I was raised in a christian family, btw I'm using the term Christian very loosely, and just went with that when I was 12. When I was 13, I became a Muslims and the next 4 years were spent me jumping from religion to religion seeking to find something. I tended to just return back to Islam, but as of recently, I came back to Christianity. The idea of atheism had always seemed silly to me and have never even considered it as an option besides a week when I was an edgy 14 year old who watched some youtube videos. But now I am an 18 year old Christian who is just growing, although slowly and steadily since I do browse this site, in Christ.

>>36821372
That explains nothing about my question.

So there is no free will??

>>36821442
>1/3 of the angels were in heaven conspiring against God. Were they not being sinful just thinking about over throwing God?
From what I understand it was a recent thing, meaning they never had these thoughts until later on when the devil persuaded them IE why they're called his angels.

>>36821520
Oh, sorry my bad. I though you were some other anon.

>>36821520
What was you question again?

>>36821502
Wrong. Only god is perfect. Fallen angels and fallen men are not perfect in the first place. If so then gods can fall too?

Are you even the real christanon? If so you aren't as sharp today as you usually are.

>>36821584
>Wrong. Only God is perfect.
Well, perfect in the sense that there was nothing wrong with them and the were sinless, blameless creature. They cannot stand on their own.

>If so then gods can fall too?
God, on the other hand, isn't only perfect but powerful and self-sustaining and so can not be tempted.

>>36821617
Really? If so I am sorry. I usually have a cup of tea to make sure I am awake and ready to answer the questions so if I seem a bit slow, my bad. Also, I always use the same tripcode, so people know it's me.

Since you seem like you follow me a lot. Have you tried joining the discord? We are always eager to have new followers.

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>>36820549
Can i get into heaven for being cute?

>>36820549
>One enters into heaven through faith alone

Protestant faggot get out

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MUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH JAEAEYZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZ

>>36821617
I don't know the anon who made this thread, but I can attest to his theological accuracy to the questions he answered.

His theology is sound and his reasoning is quite consistent with contemporary protestant views.

>t. amateur theologian

>>36821720
Nah, God does not look at your physical appearance but rather what is in our hearts. Quality over quantity.

>>36821722
Catholics, I'm assuming you're a Catholic btw, usually come in, insult me then leave. I hope you're different and I can actually have a proper discussion with you.

>>36821759
Hey, you again! I freaking love you, man! Feel free to ask questions.

>>36821764
Gee thanks! I'll also consider myself an amateur theologians. I usually answer these questions with nothing but information from my previous studies and my good old trusty ESV study bible. Also, have you tried joining the discord? We are always eager to have new followers.

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I have never seen so many normies REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>36821822
I, sir/miss, can tell you assuredly I am not a normie.

>>36821502
How was being a Muslim? Why did you go there and why did you leave there? They aren't Jesus friendly right? How did you deal with that?

>>36821879
You have faith in god and through him he gives you all the power to crush all problems. Knowing god gives you love and hope and fills your heart with goodness. Your life and afterlife are all going to be awesome because you walk with Jesus.

>>you seem like a normie to me.

>>36821007
But why would he plan all this out? What's the point of making us all suffer? God didn't need to create Satan.

Expand on your answer though.

>>36821924
>How was being a Muslim?
Very nice and welcoming!. They literally throw a party for when you convert. After you have said the shahada to in the most, you hear an Allah u Akbar and everyone cheers. I kinda miss the family vibe.

>Why did you go there
Didn't know much and my friends were in it.

>why did you leave there?
The best answer I can give is that Christ found me.

>They aren't Jesus friendly right? How did you deal with that?
Well, they do believe in Jesus just that he wasn't God and didn't really die on the cross but was saved, scholars are not unanimous of the method since the Quran leaves a lot of space for interpretation. I didn't really care since I wasn't a Christian and saw them as nieve and dumb.

>>36821997
But those who are in Christ are those who are mocked and persecuted, and so we suffer in this world because of Christ and are not normies. But in the end, justice shall be served to all. Jesus was not a normie; everyone hated him besides a couple of guys. Also, fun fact, the disciples were teenagers in their late teens. Like 17 and up. And Jesus was a man in his 30's hanging around kids who he loved and called his friends. So have bot is that for ya?

>>36821997
I think the best way to explain this would be in what I wrote here. >>36730229

TL: godDR all was predestined God and free will does not exist. The word free will is not even used ever in the bible, besides free will offerings wich are something completely different. He has the free will to plan things in the way he wishes.

>>36822019
God was bored. What would you do if you were all alone and bored? You would make your own fantasy game. He created evil because the game needs a plot.

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You seriously believe 4chan users are going to heaven? Doesn't this website represent pretty much everything you are not meant to do?

>>36822195
>God was bored.
Ok, God before the creation of all things was in perfect union with himself and perfect contentment and love. He didn't need anybody, and his life was already good as it was. God does not get bored but rather decided to extend his love to other creatures.

>>36822107
Actually thousands of ppl loved him. Thousands came to hear him speak. He was kinda a celeb. He had good looks, a ripped bod. He was literally a god.

>>36822258
No god created these creatures to love him.

He didn't extend his love. He created things first so he could be loved.

...and what happens when we don't love him?

>>36822247
You are all pure virgins who don't bully anyone and keep to themselves. You are the meek. You are the righteous.

>>36822247
>On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Mark 2:17

This is Jesus responding to the Pharisees who saw Jesus hanging around prostitutes and other people that would be considered bad. The thing about those people was they knew that they were evil people. But the Pharisees, who were sitting on their high horses and looked as others as below them because of their good works. In fact, 4channers might be more likely to go to heaven since in the bible it said, prostitutes, where entering heaven faster than the religious people. But as the verse says you must understand that he came to save those who are humble and admit to being bad and those who are the ones Christ died for. Amen!

>>36822264
>Actually thousands of ppl loved him.
Actually no, they were all fake friends, and when he was crucified they all acted like they didn't know him. See Peter denying Jesus 3 times.

>He had good looks, a ripped bod.
Actually, if you see the OT prophecies about him, he was actually a bad looking guy

>My servant grew up in the LORD's presence like a tender green shoot, like a root in dry ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him.
Isaiah 53:2

>>36822247
So you jack off and call ppl faggot's over the internet while feeling sorry for yourselves. There are people way worst. You think you are true evil? Come on anon, come on.

>>36822338
>No God created these creatures to love him.
Yeah, and by loving him, they could experience the glory and peace that God has been experiencing since the beginning of time.

>He didn't extend his love. He created things first so he could be loved.
No, we love God because he loved us first.

>We love because he first loved us.
1 John 4:19

>and what happens when we don't love him?
If you don't love him, then that's your choice. God will never force you to go somewhere your not and so if you do not love God then why be in his presence?

>>36822461

No they believed in him. They had faith in what he said. People traveled from far off places to hear him. He was so popular the Jewish church thought of had m as a problem, hence the whole killing him thing.

And Jesus told them to do nothing. He had a big talk about it the night before remember.

And If so then peter, the creator and leader of the church, is just jesus's fake friend? And b4 he only was his real friend only after he resurrected. The guy followed him around everywhere, but he was just a fake friend?

Anyway anon which denomination is best? I already know it's not Catholicism.

>>36822546
Love me or burn in hell. Sounds like a real choice anon. That's a gun pointed at your head. Yes we can choose to get shot but that's still wrong of the person with the gun.

You can't say the shooter gave you a choice so its all the victims fault.

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>>36822374
Yes, but not online.

>>36822393
You seem to know your shit. That's a weird rule, you can be bad but you need to acknowledge you are bad and then it's fine.

I am from the UK and it is pretty uncommon for people to be raised religious here now and no one I know is religious so that is probably why I am not.

Is there some explanation in the bible for why we have to go through this shitty cycle of living and dying. Why don't we just go straight to heaven and be given healthy minds? "It's a test" Okay, well why does there need to be a test?

>>36822500
According to the bible you can't do that.

>>36822701
>People travelled from far off places to hear him.
Yeah, to be healed and get something out of him. The only had faith because they saw him and saw him as a source for their own gain. That isn't true love.

>but he was just a fake friend?
Not the best example but rather look here.

>"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who stands next to me," declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones.
Zechariah 13:7

His "followers" deserted him at the most important time. Not just because he told them to but also because they were scared.

Imagine being a rich man and having a bunch of friends, but due to a mistake on your part of someone else, you lose all your money and with that friends. Could you ever call them your friends? This was the case with Christ.

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>>36822731
>Anyway anon which denomination is best? I already know it's not Catholicism.
Not OP, but my recommendation would be anything that focuses on sola scriptura (scripture alone) as the Bible is really the only thing that is infallible in this religion. So protestant, reformist, non-denominational is ideal. Basically anything that avoids blasphemies such as prayers to saints, synergism (i.e. salvation through the church), Mary is Theotokos (Mother of God) and therefore deserving of worship.

Suffice it to say that some protestant denominations (or sub-denominations) might also be individually blasphemous (i.e. Mars Hill Church, Westboro Baptist Church, etc), but this is normally to do with the church's self-identified denomination and less to do with the denomination as whole.

Not that all Catholics are blasphemous, but Catholicism in general carries many non-scripture traditions and borderline heretical practices. This fact, combined with the papacy's recent claims about Jews being saved without Christ and Muslims being allowed a place of worship in the Vatican, makes your instincts of not wanting to be a Catholic properly justified.

I hope this helps, anon!

>>36822731
I'm a reformed baptist so yeah you're gonna get a biased answer but as long as you stay withing Protestantism you're good.

>>36822791
>Love me or burn in hell.
>Yes we can choose to get shot, but that's still wrong of the person with the gun.
You're implying that God is the one that sends people to hell but he is not. We send ourselves to hell. God only saves, and hell was created for the fallen angels only. It wasn't even meant for the humans, but due to choosing evil besides God, we have willingly walked into the fires of hell.

I would like to echo some of the words of CS Lewis.
>The gates of hell are locked from the inside

This means that we go in willingly by not choosing God.

I hope this answered your question.

>>36822939
Show me where in the bible it talks about how all those ppl who came to see him didn't care for him.

I remember ppl getting healed by him and ppl praising him and calling him the true son of god, their savior, the Messiah, he has finally come, we are all saved, praise him.

And ask any Christian now, they would all still let Jesus die his horrible death. Are they not his friend?

I always enjoy seeing christians posting here it's a strange place to meet a brother. Btw keep up the good work CA, you've been doing this for a while now haven't you?

>>36823098
No, were are born already going to hell with original sin. We are born into it. We do not choose to even be born.

And we are all predestined by god anyways.

But we send ourselves and lock ourselves in hell with our choices? Okay anon.

>>36822933
>you can be bad but you need to acknowledge you are bad and then it's fine.
Not necessarily read this. >>36748148

>I am from the UK, and it is pretty uncommon for people to be raised religious
Oh, I know. I am a brit too.

>Is there some explanation in the Bible for why we have to go through this shitty cycle of living and dying.
The fall of man. Before the fall of man we were immortal, there was no such thing as pain or suffering, and a lion could sleep with a lamb. But after our disobedience, those things left us and sin entered to the world. That is why we have pain and suffering in this world. And so if we live according to the scriptures and we believe then we will be put out of this cycle and return to that peaceful place where there is no suffering. You see we have to earn that peace, but not a lot of people want to do it.

>>36823113
Thank you brother. Have you tried joining the discord? We are always eager to have new followers.

>>36823113
Oh are there others?

Why did god make you a robot? Why did he make you like this? Why did he make your life like this? Have you ask god for help? Will he deliver you?

>>36823241
>No, were are born already going to hell with original sin.
Yeah, but if you would have just denied yourself, followed christ, gone against your fleshly ways you would have gone to heaven. But not a lot of people are willing to do that. Also, you can't love God instantly. It is a process and a gradual one. A person who has walked with God for 40 years and has seen more evidence of his power is gonna have more trust, love and faith in God than a newly convert of has been a Christian for perhaps a couple years. And so we try to achieve that through time. And although everything is predestined we still have a free will, and so the predestined plan will reveal to us how we will use that free will. God bless!

>>36823290
Why would I know that? I don't think of God as some kind of magic answer machine.

>>36823109
>Show me where in the bible it talks about how all those ppl who came to see him didn't care for him.
It's more inferred and by their actions before and after the crucifixion. But here's a verse.

>Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
John 6:26-27

Also, read it from verse 22-27. It gives you a better understanding of the context or just read the entire verse or in fact the entire four Gospels. It's an amazing read.

>>36823267
christfag discord link?

>>36823355
GOD made me this way!

Denying myself is denying HIM.

I'm still right, we have a gun pointed at us by god. We do not hold the gun, we are just men. God controls all things, only by his grace can we do things. If original sin wasn't a thing I might agree with you though. But the bible says so.

And I disagree, we can love god instantly. in fact there are a lot of accounts in gods word that shows ppl instantly dropping everything to follow god. They followed him because they loved him. But you think they were all fake friends right?

>>36823546
gg/AyQfdQW

this is not original because I posted it in the OP

>>36823485
Haven't you heard? God answers prayers. Just ask our heavenly father and he will provide. Believe in him anon, have faith. Nothing is impossible for him.

>>36820549

>One enters into heaven through faith alone

This idea was created by a neurotic man who suffered scrupulosity.
When we look at our nature and see how much we sin, it's tempting to reject the sacraments of the church and say "Oh, well I don't have to worry too much about my sins. I believe in Jesus, so I can sin all I want. I'm still saved"

This fire-and-forget approach to faith is wrong. You have to see that. Faith without works may as well be dead.

>>36823507
>>just read the whole bible!

Lol shut up anon

>>36823605
Thanks for that comment anon. I have received this comment so many times that I, in fact, have an answer ready for Catholics. Here it is >>36748148

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>>36823634
Ah, ok. I tried though.

>>36823713
No you are suppose to answer my questions. Don't refer me to half the damn bible.

Maybe I am thinking too much of you. You have switched religions multiple times and you are young, and according to you your faith and love shouldn't be that strong since you are young.

>>36823669


So what you are saying is, we are justified by our faith, but our faith is justified by our works?

If I was a believer, but I cheated, raped, killed and exploited, would I still go to heaven?
I would I go to hell, because my works were indicative of a false faith?

Because if that is the case, it seems like faith and works are both equally important, but you just use some phrasing to say that faith alone saves you, but you can't have faith without works.

Isn't it easier to say faith and works are equally important for salvation?

>>36823604
I appreciate this and you're right, I probably should pray more about my situation even though I feel like I half heartedly accepted it for now. Have you received any answers to these kind of questions yet?

>>36823556
>GOD made me this way! Denying myself is denying HIM.
No, he didn't. You made yourself this way. But you still have the strength to go against this by finding freedom in Christ.

>we have a gun pointed at us by God.
No, like I said before. You're implying that God is the one that sends people to hell but he is not. We send ourselves to hell. God only saves, and hell was created for the fallen angels only. It wasn't even meant for the humans, but due to choosing evil besides God, we have willingly walked into the fires of hell. God won't put you with him if you don't even love God. And as you desired you become eternally separated from him as you wished.

>And I disagree, we can love God instantly
Some can some can't. Our walk in God is at different paces, and we come to Christ at different paces.

>>36823791
No you are suppose to answer my questions.
I did. Did you read the verse you said I should provide?

>>36823791
>Gives you the specific verse, but also suggests that you might enjoy reading the 4 most important books of the 66 book canon in order to fully understand the context
>WOW THAT'S LIKE HALF THE DAMN BIBLE YOU MUST BE 18 TO POST HERE
settle down, anon

>>36823894
Yes, we are here to make ppl feel better about themselves.

>>36824021
So we should stay miserable and don't try to change? (assuming you are miserable)

>>36823847
>our faith is justified by our works?
No, but is rather the evidence of our faith.

>If I was a believer, but I cheated, raped, killed and exploited, would I still go to heaven?
No, you have not truly believed, and the gospel has not yet gained a foothold in your life. See James 2:14-20.

>I would I go to hell, because my works were indicative of a false faith?
Yes, that faith cannot save as stated in James.

>Isn't it easier to say faith and works are equally important for salvation?
Not necessarily because one is the evidence for the other. You can look at the thief on the cross, who most likely lived a life of sin, believed and was counted as rightous and saved by god and was later said to be with christ in paradise.

>>36823909
No HE created us and HE has determined our lives for us. Only by HIS grace can anything be done. HE is the ruler, HE is the Almighty, what happens is all HIS will.

And yes he made up original sin so we are born into sin. Nothing we did made us sinful. From the moment we are born we are destined for hell. One can even say before we are born.

>>36824192
>No HE created us, and HE has determined our lives for us
No, the destination is only a revealing of how we were to use our free will. Don't think of it like that. If you have read the Bible and liked it, then do something about that. But as you said

>what happens is all HIS will.

So if you read and have an inclinations to believe in it follow that. But just remember that despite what you view as your decision, the invisible hand of God is in the background moving the strings and making you believe. But if you have read the bible and didn't believe and don't believe in the Bible then don't worry you don't believe in God and so just go your merry ways.

>And yes he made up original sin, so we are born into sin.
God never made up sin. What was sin now has always been sin. How was the devil taken out of hell for sinning when the law wasn't even written? It was always the same case.

>>36823931
Yes and what he is saying is don't depend on signs like his healing for their faith. Not that they only come to him to get healed. So the verses you gave me didn't have a anything to do with what we were speaking of originally, you just took his words out of context to make what you wanted.

I still say Jesus was not a robot....yes we were arguing over that.

>>36824160

The repentant thief may have been saved, but he still suffered for his sins in the afterlife through purging fire.

That is my main gripe with protestantism. It doesn't make any sense because it rejects the idea of justice in the cosmos.
So someone can cause great suffering and misery all his life, but he just has to have a deathbed conversion and he can go straight to heaven? No purging, no punishment, no justice?

If someone has spent their whole life acting wickedly, and choose to repent in the last 3 seconds of their life, wouldn't it make sense that he still has wickedness in his heart and needs to go through a process to purge himself?

Going straight to heaven for anyone that says they believe seems to cheapen heaven.

>>36824360
The only thing that is now and has always has been is god himself.

>>36824381
This Catholic has a good point.

Or is it that god just doesn't care? Is it us that demand punishment?

God was human yes but he wasn't a tragic humman....yes the passion was bad but he really never went through tough times in his lifetime. He had love ving parents, great bros and sisters, he had a big group of friends, could do magic, never hungry, always had wine.

And b4 40 days in desert, there is a big difference between choosing to go without things than actually not having and no way of getting them.

>>36824366
>Yes and what he is saying is don't depend on signs like his healing for their faith.
Yes, there were a few people who believe and were saved, but if you actually read the entire new testament, there are only a couple of people where were healed by faith. The old lady who touched the clothes of Jesus, the Canaanite woman and perhaps a few people who requested the for their friend to be healed through an extraordinary way to the point which Jesus had to compliment their faith.

>you just took his words out of context
I gave you the option to read the context but let's look deeper into the verse

>I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

This can also intern be an example of them seeing faith healings and having themselves healed, and so we could infer that it might have included not just miracles but also faith healings.

>I still say Jesus was not a robot....yes we were arguing over that.
lol, just realised. Also, how would you define a bot?

>>36824486
Amen! But in an original way

>>36824381
Sorry for the long wait. My computer crashed and I will be responding to you, now!

what argument against the gnostic heresy can you offer?

>>36824381
>>36824610
>The repentant thief may have been saved, but he still suffered for his sins in the afterlife through purging fire.
I don't believe in purgatory since there is only heaven and hell, or Sheol and Hades if you wanna get technical.

>No purging, no punishment, no justice?
What you must understand is that they have been justified by God through the forensic declaration by God and no one can bring a charge against them. If that person were given the opportunity, he would have repented and lived a godly life, being regenerated and sanctified. This fact of faith alone can give us peace with God since we do not fear death, we know that because what Christ has done and knowing that he had fulfilled the law we can die peacefully on our deathbeds knowing that through trust in Christ we can die peacefully. But in Catholicism, there is no certainty. You live every day seeking to be justified by you sacraments and traditions, which is an act done by a group of people known as the Pharisees, in order to atone for venial sins. So can you truly say you have peace with God? We know someone did live the life needed and by his love he gave that perfect life away to whoever believes and so we have true Shalom with God!

>Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5: 1-2
Cont.

>>36824610
>>36824381
I have recently started to study Roman Catholicism and after studying one of the core beliefs, a question arisen in my head.
One big difference between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism is the value of faith alone as opposed to works, faith and God's grace working together in a synergistic way to bring about your salvation, which would be the Catholic view.
This then brings me to my question. What was Christ's purpose when dying on the cross. As a Protestant, I believe that he died for my sins, all of them and for once and for all and so there is nothing I can possibly do to add on to that perfect sacrifice. So then I ask you if you believe that we must do good works to stay saved and committing mortal sins, which Christ died for, can make us lose that salvation then what did Christ accomplish on the cross then if there are things that we can do to lose salvation, and there are sins that we must repent for. Didn't Christ die for all sins?

>>36824895
I always get this question and feel guilty that I cannot answer it. I don't know much about Gnosticism, but I am willing to study it if you could provide some resources that I can study to learn more about it to be more adequately prepared to speak on it God willing.

>>36824716
Not Jesus.

OK Maybe he wasn't good looking idk, you don't know tho either.

But he was charismatic and charm for sure. Robots just aren't that.

He had a good group of friends, he had good parents, he had Mary who was obsessed with him, she orbited HIM. He was OK with prostitutes and not scared of them like the guys here. He had actual powers, not pretend ones like us, he had followers and he was sure of himself, he had confidence, he knew what he was doing in life. And he was son of a god, let's equate that to a rich daddy.
And he was he really even a virgin? Where does it say that in the bible?

Mary was supposedly but she was married? Why did her and her husband not have sex?

Joseph on the other hand raised another mans child and could not get sex from his own wife.

>>36824957
No Christ didn't die for all sins, he only died for the ppl that love him. There are many ppl that go to hell forever. More ppl go to hell than heaven.
Gods sacrifice was for nothing really. Ppl could have still went to heaven all they needed was to believe in god right?

And some ppl like the Jews and Muslims say Jesus wasn't needed to do that in the first place. Maybe they are right?

>>36824957

>What was Christ's purpose when dying on the cross

Well, he died for our salvation.
Or rather, our potential for salvation.

Adam doomed humanity to Godlessness with his action, and then the new Adam, Christ, came to bring humanity back to God.

Because Christ died to atone for our original sin, and freed us from our innate sinfulness as human beings, we have been given a choice: to seek out God and become closer to him, or reject him. It isn't automatic pass to heaven like some people believe. It was God extending to u an opportunity.

I'm reminded of the old joke "Jesus died for our sins. I better sin as much as possible so he didn't die for nothing."

Of course its a joke, and doesn't make a lot of theological sense. But it does show the flaws with thinking that Christ's death was as simple as a free ticket to heaven.

>>36825027
>Robots just aren't that.
How many of the boxes must be ticked before they are considered a bot?

>And he was he really even a virgin?
He never got married and so never had sex. He was most definitely single all his life and never had a spouse or got married. If he did then paul would have said something or spoke to them since paul spoke to the brother of jesus.

>Why did her and her husband not have sex?
They did later on. Matthew 1:25 statement that Joseph "knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son" to mean that Joseph and Mary did have normal marital relations after Jesus' birth and that James were brothers.

>>36825178
>No Christ didn't die for all sins, he only died for the ppl that love him.
Are you talking about limited atonement? Then yeah sure but the people that didn't believe all went to hell because of their own will.

>Gods sacrifice was for nothing really.
Not really, God is not worried about quantity but rather quality. Even if on person was saved not just a life was saved but someone's eternity.

>Ppl could have still went to heaven all they needed was to believe in God right?
yes, absolutely!

>And some ppl like the Jews and Muslims say Jesus wasn't needed to do that in the first place. Maybe they are right?
Jews deny out of ignorance and Muslims have a whole different system of justification, which I can get into if you'd like.

>>36825232
OK you tell me how me was a robot.
You tell me how the son of god was a pathetic loser.

Go ahead.

>>36825297
Maybe those ppl just wernt convinced enough. You have to admit it is a huge pill to swallow and to say they just didn't choose god is unfair.

And I disagree on the quality over quantity.

The Jesus I know would value all human souls as great and equal in their quality. Am I better than you or you better than me?
For every eternity that was saved there are a thousand lost? That doesn't feel to me acceptable to jesus.

You make Jesus sound so uncaring for his children.

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Praise be to the Most High God

The reason why Catholicism makes sense to me is because of the Gospels themselves.

All throughout the Gospels, Jesus talks about the kingdom of heaven, what it is like, how to live a good life, what God is, what the prophecies mean, etc.

But, if you observe, he speaks very little about what his purpose on earth is, and why he came. He doesn't talk about his personal mission at all. Except in a single passage:

>"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
>Mt 16:18-19

Jesus spells it out. His mission on earth was to establish more than just a faith. He was establishing a Church. And two thousand years since that intimate conversation between Jesus and his beloved disciple, the same Church established in that moment still stands.

You can argue what Jesus meant by the word "Church", or what the keys of heaven are, and what's metaphorical and what's literal.
But to me, it seems clear.

>>36825213
>Well, he died for our salvation.
Sure.

>Or rather, our potential for salvation.
No, those who Christ has predestined will come to him, and he does not fail in doing so.

>All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day
John 6:37-39

It wasn't a potential saving but rather an actual act of salvation.

>Because Christ died to atone for our original sin
Only original sin? What did John mean here then?

>The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29

Did he just make it possible or did Christ actually die for all sins when you make jokes such as

>"Jesus died for our sins. I better sin as much as possible so he didn't die for nothing."

It comes from ignorance. A truly convicted soul who has had the holy spirit enter him and has had a heart turned from one of stone to one of flesh he would stop sinning immediately and regret his past just like Solomon did in Kings. A person who thinks this way has not truly learnt about scripture but rather is still in sin.

>>36825337
>OK you tell me how me was a robot.
I think that there are levels to being a robot but despite this, he was far from normie. Especially back then being a Christian was far from being a normie.

>>36825409
>You have to admit it is a huge pill
And that's why it's so special to God.

>Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 20:29

>just didn't choose God is unfair.
They saw miracles after miracle and yet did not believe.

>>36825572
>>36825337

Lepers were the real robots of Jesus time. But Jesus was the only one who dared associate with them.

>>36825473
Amen! But in a originaloo way

>>36825543

If Christ died for all sins, then why is faith even necessary?
This is the driving idea behind universalism, which many protestants believe. But it doesn't make sense.
And the idea of predestination makes little sense as well.
We are all human. We all have the potential to be saved. And that is what Christ's death did. Given us the invitation to find God.

>>36825472
>The Jesus I know would value all human souls as great and equal in their quality.
Yes, I agree.

>This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4

But not all faith is good quality as seen by here: >>36748148

>Am I better than you or you better than me?
In the eyes of god, we are all equally dead in sin. Some just decide, by the grace of god, know this and then repent and follow god.

>That doesn't feel to me acceptable to jesus.
>feel to me
>acceptable to jesus
Do you see the problem?

>>36825572
Jesus wasn't a christian he was a Jew. Which was pretty normal then.

And no he wasn't normal he was an idol. A celebrity. Not a loser robot. He wasn't awkward, he had a job, he had girls who wanted him.

>>36820549
Aren't you ashamed to spread superstition?

>>36825489
>The reason why Catholicism makes sense to me is because of the Gospels themselves.
It's funny you say that because I have not accepted Catholicism for the same reason. read >>36748148 and >>36824957

>keys of heaven are, and what's metaphorical
I agree that he came to establish a Church, but with the key analogy, it can't be to reference to the papacy since the roman catholic idea of popes wasn't even an ancient thing and was started much later after his death. But I haven't studied that verse too much, and I do hit a bit of a road block when reading I feel as though it is my duty to study it since it is such a critical issue.

>>36825761
>If Christ died for all sins, then why is faith even necessary?
it is to reap the benefits of that death.

>And the idea of predestination makes little sense as well.
How so?

>We are all human. We all have the potential to be saved.
read this: >>36730229

>>36825769
Feeling Jesus is doable to everyone with the holy spirit. How do you think the bible was written in the first place? And the bible doesn't have all the answers and so we have to turn to our hearts, the ones we share with Jesus to answer . so no I don't see the problem.

Do you know Jesus? Do you feel him in your heart?

>>36825904

>roman catholic idea of popes wasn't even an ancient thing and was started much later after his death.

The concept of papacy is just apostolic succession.
And apostolic succession started with Peter.

>>36825904
John was the first pope. He was made head of church the day Jesus went back to heaven.

>>36825889
I just never do it to feel free from that guilt.

>>36825847
>Jesus wasn't a Christian he was a Jew.
Do you know what a jew is? It is a race. But if we see it as a religious thing then jews are mainly people who are waiting for the messiah but he already came and that was Jesus.

>he had girls who wanted him.
Scripture needed.

>>36825964
Oops I mean peter. I always get them all confused.

Point is Jesus appointed him himself.

>>36825936
>Do you know Jesus? Do you feel him in your heart?
I'm on the path.

>>36825953
>>36825964
Who was the pope after peter?

>>36825987
Oh there is a whole bible testimate book about Jesus and his wife Mary. It was taken out by the church though.

Google it.

>What is the gospel?
>The gospel is the message that Jesus Christ, although existed in the very form of God, did not consider that equality something to be held onto and chose to leave that heavenly place, enter into his own creation and die for the sins of his people. But guess what he rose on the third day because death could not hold it's grip on the blessed son of God and when you are resurrected on the day of judgement the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead will also be the same spirit that raised you on the last day.

Is this supposed to convince me to believe in your bullshit nonsense

>>36826053
Yeah, I don't believe that. I used to when I was in my early teens and looked into conspiracies but not now. I have looked into those things, and they're all false. Once you learn about the transmission of the NT, you finally figure out that things like that were not possible to happen.

>>36825987
If you look it up. The Jews (and muslims) have a few good point of how Jesus does not fulfill the prophecy. Technicaly he doesn't.

Personally if Jesus is disproved would you still believe in god?

>>36826080
>Is this supposed to convince me to believe in your bullshit nonsense
I'm not trying to convince you; I haven't even got the capabilities to. I'm simply just spreading the message and informing people about the faith.

>>36825933

>God deliberately creates people solely for hell to glorify himself and show them his wrath while saves some people to show his power and mercy.

Yes you are right. That is brutal. Nihilistic. And above all, it makes no sense.

Why would God create people solely to send them to hell?
To show his wrath?
For what purpose?
It wouldn't be to make people believe in him, since he creates people solely to worship him.

That particular doctrine, double predestination I believe you call it, is an oddity of some protestant branches. And I'm shocked it has any ground, because it's ridiculous.

I can accept that there are mysteries in the world we can't explain and God is mysterious. But this doctrine seems like an attempt to reject acceptance of mysteries and try and reconcile philosophical concepts like determinism with Christianity. Which is wrong.

The only predestination is God's plan for humanity to accept or reject his grace. And everyone has the free will to do so. Free will is what makes us alive.

>>36826130
>good point of how Jesus does not fulfil the prophecy.
I have looked into them and still believe that he does, in fact, fulfil prophecy.

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>>36823063
Why do protestants not like the Theotokos?
The Hail Mary prayer is in Luke, and they often think we pray to Mary, but as it goes we ask her "please pray for us sinners, now until the hour of our death."

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There is no God but God and Muhammad is his messenger. Deal with it.

>>36820549
Tell that to these cucks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCoJSnO1Msk

>>36826242
Muhammad didn't conquer death, and neither did he fulfill Isiah's prophesies. The New Testament even warns to not trust even an Angel who would go against God's words in Christ.

jesus died to cles your sin

but you must still cleanse ur sin

>>36826170
>Yes you are right. That is brutal. Nihilistic. And above all, it makes no sense.
Brutal, no. They are blessed even to be given a chance to live and not burn in hell immediately. When Adam and Eve sinned against God they deserved his fullest punishment, but instead, he gave them a light punishment, compared to their deserved one by his love and mercy, and also do so for future reprobates. And also, do you even know what nihilistic means?

>For what purpose?
To let his power be known

>For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Romans 9:17-18

>double predestination
No, it's called particular redemption or limited atonement.

> And I'm shocked it has any ground, because it's ridiculous.
I have given you scripture which you have not responded to yet.

>try and reconcile philosophical concepts like determinism with Christianity
No, I believe that it is a part of scripture.

>The only predestination is God's plan for humanity to accept or reject his grace.
No, it is far beyond that, and I can prove it by bringing countless scriptures which state that God saves, God preserves, and God elects people for his own glory.

>>36820549

There is an aspect of 'being cleansed of sin' that refers to a passive process, which is modern in origin, that one just needs to believe in Christ to be cleansed of sin so-called. This has some validity... but not much. One must know Christ to be cleansed of sin, one must know God. This requires an active, arduous process of not just belief, but direct action and intensive meditation. Before you go around acting as an authority on the matter, please go educate yourself, or even better - go through the trial by fire itself. Then you might be considered to have authority to comment on the divine.

Tldr; Stop spreading Churchianity. You're only hurting yourself and others.

>>36826327
>but you must still cleanse ur sin
Not what I believe. We have been cleansed and now live sinless lives. That argument would be better suited towards Catholics.

>>36826363
Thanks for that I'd suggest you read this text >>36748148

Also, all the other things you stated are descriptive of what a believer will be like and not prescriptive.

>>36826353
You just keep making god seem uncareing and selfish.

You say mercy this and we should thank him that, but simple disobedience doesn't justify hell for you and all your descendents for all eternity. Eve didn't kill Adam they just ate some fruit. How does the punishment fit the crime? How is he a just and fair god? Especially knowing that he planned all this.

>>36826534
>You just keep making god seem uncareing and selfish.
If you have no scripture to back up your belief, then it's gonna be really hard for me to believe you. But I believe in Sola Scriptura as well as Tota Scriptura, and so I humble myself to the truth of scripture and believe.

>but simple disobedience doesn't justify hell
What you call "simple" disobedience is what God does not let slide. If you understood God hate for sin, then you would know why he cannot allow even the smallest of sins not to be forgotten and is why "all" our sins needed to be forgiven for.

>they just ate some fruit.
And because of that, we inherited original sin and sin nature. That one sin was enough to get you into hell!

>How does the punishment fit the crime?
An act against an eternal god deserves an eternal punishment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOMofDqTa4A

>How is he a just and fair God?
I don't think you are looking for justice since what you will get is eternal suffering what we want are mercy and grace.

>Especially knowing that he planned all this.
Like I said earlier. It's his decree and for his glory.

>>36826353

>I can prove it by bringing countless scriptures which state that God saves, God preserves, and God elects people for his own glory.

Yes, yes. We all know that your sola scriptura theology drives your beliefs and everything in the bible needs to be taken at face value with no interpretation.

If you see the bible as the ultimate authority alone, and don't think about the passages, you run into problems.

For instance, passages like these
>The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
>2 Peter 3:9

and

> For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
>1 timothy 2:3-4

Which state that God's desire is for all of humanity to be saved.

So at the end of the day, you will have to make a choice.
Accept some passages, and ignore and explain away others.
With that interpretation of the Bible, you will have to go against scripture.

>>36826760
>Yes, yes. We all know that your sola scriptura theology drives your beliefs
And rightly so!

>everything in the bible needs to be taken at face value with no interpretation.
Wrong, we just exegete from the bible truthly.

>2 Peter 3:9
>1 timothy 2:3-4
This here represents god's desire but what I learn from it that his desire can sometimes go against his will.

>With that interpretation of the Bible, you will have to go against scripture.
Not at all, I believe in Sola Scriptura as well as Tota Scriptura, and so I humble myself to the truth of scripture and believe. With a few hermeneutics, I can come to a sound conclusion without having to give up my theology or not believe in sola Scriptura or tota Scriptura.

>>36826906

>God's desires and will are separate

It's still pretty hard to swallow. Sorry.

It's an interesting theology, I'll give you that.
But its easy to see why it doesn't have widespread acceptance outside those branches

>>36827027
>It's still pretty hard to swallow. Sorry.
I do not see that.

>But its easy to see why it doesn't have widespread acceptance outside those branches
The flesh does not seek the things of the spirit.

>For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to one another so that you do not do what you want.
Galatians 5:17

>For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5

Only those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and have received the gift of faith can understand and believe.

>>36827027
>>36827156
>But its easy to see why it doesn't have widespread acceptance outside those branches
Only those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and have received the gift of faith can understand and believe.

>>36826263
Damn, godlessness to the max. Let's just hope and pray for their repentance.

End of thread guys. I've got church today (it's 1:37 am here in London).

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What salvation awaits my boring nondescript life?

Do I deserve that salvation? Why?