Is capitalism destroying music as an artform?

how would that even happen?

>>72952742
I'd like to say yes for the obvious reasons, but I can't because we have no reference point of music that wasn't made in a capitalist frame

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Yes.

Nope.
Capitalism brings survival of the fittest to center stage of creative endeavors.
It actually is accelerating the progression and refinement of music.
Already thousands of musicians exist who are head and shoulders above the old classical composers of note.
And those guys were head and shoulders above the couple decent musicians who ever existed before them.
We must continue to open more enclosures to capitalist perfection.

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You should fuck yourself

>>72952848
>Already thousands of musicians exist who are head and shoulders above the old classical composers of note.
name one and try not to embarrass yourself too badly

>>72952848
>It actually is accelerating the progression and refinement of music.
>Already thousands of musicians exist who are head and shoulders above the old classical composers of note.
Have you ever considered doing standup?

>>72952867
>>72952868
Im pretty sure he's joking. Not 100% sure though

>>72952848
I agree anon
Capitalism fuels a sense of competitiveness that can hardly be achieved otherwise. Even though I'm against the existence of monopolies and olygopolies, I'm somewhat right-ish concerning economics. Unfortunately I haven't analyzed how music comes into play enough to give a strong opinion on it, but I hope that someday, someone can create a fairly reliable study on the case

Not really. There are tons of shitty "artists" in every high school/college who suck and thanks to capitalism can't sustain themselves off of their worthless music. There are a lot of awful mainstream artists as well, but there are far more awful "underground" artists.

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>>72952742

Who is in the right here?

>>72952742
Capitalism is so bad for art that governments have to fund it

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>>72952848
You forget the part where corporations have a massive leverage and can manipulate/dictate taste of masses for profit.

Neocons/neolibs sold our morality and dignity to corporations for illusion of power.

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>>72952848
>industrial society capitalism
>related to the survival of the ""fittest""

>>72952920
Also, I must add that there is absolutely no reason for artists to support communism or socialism if they wish to continue in their trade as freely as they are now

>>72952742
Literally no economic system is conducive to art as a means of living. Capitalism doesnt prevent people from making good music, its just that shitty accessible music will be the most popular. Literally no one is preventing you from making or hearing the music that you like

>>72952975
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unabomber/manifesto.text.htm

>>72952996
Art transcends economy.
Consumption of art does not.

>>72953031
tell that to money launders selling pieces of shit for 100s of millions.

>>72953031
What does that have to do with what I said? In capitalism everyone can buy whatever music they want to. In communism all the music would be owned and promoted by the state giving even less variety to choose from.

Want to make anti communist music in a communist state? Good luck with that

>>72953055
>>72953082
Creation and respect of art is beyond economy.

You both used examples of consumption of art.

>>72953082
what if i want to make music questioning holohox in capitalist society?

>>72953011
>>72953055

Children who think that art should cater to their tastes

Also, first anon
Are you treating an article written by a terrorist as reliable information? Sorry buddy but Naruto ended a few months ago

>>72952848
>Capitalism brings survival of the fittest
>Accelerating progression and refinement
Which is exactly why bringing back old shit is the one of the commercially viable things you can do in pop music right now and superhero movies dominate the box office

>>72953120
Youd probably get individual protests, but the state would do nothing to stop you. You could easily get it published on some skin head record label or make your own label

>>72953102
>Creation and respect of art is beyond economy
Youre confusing me. Arent we discussing the way the economic system would effect artists and consumption of art? Isnt that the entire point of this thread?

>>72953127
What you don't seem to realize is that Ted Kaczysnki is a mathematical and philosophical genius who used bombings to gain attention to his manifesto.

>>72952742
Yes.

>>72953127
>>72953185
I didn't expect you to read it anyway. I know reading is a Herculean triumph for most people.

>>72953161
No label would sign me, no radio would play me couldn't sell my music on itunes. And in many countries I would get prison sentence.

Your capitalists can, what communist can't is stupid notion based on nothing but propaganda.

>is incentivizing record labels to follow money-making trends destroying music as an artform
>is awarding people who make the most money in music ruining music as an artform
>are contracts between bands and labels obligating the band to not fuck with the formula ruining music as an art form?
I don't know, you tell me
Capitalism isn't the worst thing to happen to music but you cannot deny overexposure of certain kinds of music has been trapping the rest of music in the dark

>>72953257
Mate, there are skinhead record labels in southern USA that have bands with lyrics advocating the murder of blacks and racewar. Don't use speculation as evidence

>>72953257
>Your capitalists can, what communist can't is stupid notion based on nothing but propaganda
And history. Show me some of the great works of art (not propaganda) produced in communist states and how the state was conducive to it.

>no record label would sign me
Then make your own

>no radio would play me
Because no one would like your fucking music. You honestly think you should get air time even though no likes your music? If you want something that sells well then write something not horribly controversial.

>>72953317
>nobody likes me
>it means my art is lesser art

this is how capitaldrones think

>>72953257
>And in many countries I would get prison sentence.
Not in America. But I can guarantee that making any anti communist work in ANY communist state will get you stuck in a gulag

>>72953317
Tarkovsky
László Krasznahorkai

>>72953359
Marxism–Leninism is not a communism.

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>>72952742
it's more complex than that i think, but in the end yea. capitalism creates an art-economy and allows massive selling of artistic good and by its basis causes a "normalification" (idk the correct world) of common taste. popular music is calibrated to sell, in short. but on the other hand, capitalism allows/causes criticism, and that shows in music too (underground, counterculture, as well as contemporary classial). i think that capitalism reduces the variety of forms for most musical productions and most people, but also forces the creation of musical forms that can criticise this system. but as >>72952787 says, it's hard to judge
tldr: capitalism kills variety but also causes countercultures.


>>72952996
you"re not wrong but on the first years of the communist regime in russia the art world was booming because of communist ideals. schools were created that were years in advance in their functionning (Unovis, Sfomas) and the whole avant-garde was at the head of the regime's cultural policies. after a few years it turned into a huge shitshow though

>>72953055
when you say that you're just showing that you have 0 idea of what you're talking about. care to gie names?

>>72953355
>it means my art is lesser art
I didnt say that. Theres no objective method of evaluating how much worth music has. Your musics worth is subjective to every individual. Just because you made music doesnt mean you should automatically get paid the equal amount of every other artist, especially if everybody hates your music and you didnt contribute shit to society

>>72953388
Marxism and lennism is a set of ideaologies that communism is based on. Jesus christ, leftists dont even understand their own fucking ideaologies>>72953408

>>72953370
>Tarkovsky

>In 1965, he directed the film Andrei Rublev about the life of Andrei Rublev, the fifteenth-century Russian icon painter. Andrei Rublev was not, except for a single screening in Moscow in 1966, immediately released after completion due to problems with Soviet authorities. Tarkovsky had to cut the film several times, resulting in several different versions of varying lengths.

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yah the soviet union was super conducive to his art, right? Fucking retard

>>72953430
when did i not agree with that?

>>72953430
Marx critiqued ideology you fucking nerd. Communism is the real movement which abolishes the present stage of things

>>72953430
Thats not what he's saying you mong. Jesus christ, righties can't even read properly

>>72953464
>>72953430
i'm >>72953408 btw, not >>72953388

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>>72953370
>>72953452
>t
>Tarkovsky had worked on the screenplay for this film since 1967, under the consecutive titles Confession, White day and A white, white day. From the beginning the film was not well received by Soviet authorities due to its content and its perceived elitist nature. Russian authorities placed the film in the "third category," a severely limited distribution, and only allowed it to be shown in third-class cinemas and workers' clubs. Few prints were made and the film-makers received no returns

Being an artist in a communist state sounds grand!

>>72953487
That response was a mistake. I accidentally clicked your tag before I submitted that post

>>72953490
>soviet union = ideal communist state
You really know your stuff anon

>>72953471
The >>72953408 tag was a typo

>>72953532
I know, you're still wrong

>>72952742
yep

>>72953082
>In communism all the music would be owned and promoted by the state giving even less variety to choose from.
lol

>>72953524
I asked for evidence that communism was conducive to art. He provided Tarkovsky, and I pointed out why thats garbage evidence.

Also fuck off with this "ideal" communist state. You realize every single person has a different idea of "ideal"? What gives you the right to claim your ideal state is the state everyone should live in?

>>72953563
Its true though. All art would have to be state approved

>>72953566
Ideal as in the ideal communism under which it was originally thought, not my personal ideal

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>>72953490
>communist
>state

>>72952848
This is wrong, because better music does not equal better sales. Hence pop music.

>>72953550
How? Youre honestly going to say that marxism-lenninism isnt the ideological frame work for communism?

>>72953601
Read Marx my friend.

>>72953452
>>72953490
You don't have to fake laugh as you stare dead at your screen slightly disgruntled, dude.
I know it's most likely hard for someone who probably is unable to view love as anything more than a primitive leeching for power dynamics, but please try. You may enjoy life more.

>>72953601
What marxism-leninism means is lenin's interpretation of marxism. He doesn't mean marxism or leninism

>>72953585
>Ideal as in the ideal communism under which it was originally thought,
Which has literally never worked because its incredibly easy for dictators to come out of communism

>>72953588
Theres other definitions of communism besides Marx's

>>72953667
>Theres other definitions of communism besides Marx's

Please say em my dude

>>72953584
>All art would have to be state approved
I think you are talking about a dictatorship.

Also:
>communism
>state
pick one

>>72953667
>Which has literally never worked because its incredibly easy for dictators to come out of communism
I'm not in favour of it for that exact reason. Doesn't mean I can't defend the ideal situation

>>72953490
>>72953452
>>72953639
Also, I could provide plenty of examples of great artists dying completely unknown in capitalist countries, in fact, many of the most influential and significant artists of the 20th century died in the streets and/or unknown.

>>72953630
I have. He belives capitalism is a catalyst for socialism and eventually capitalism. He believes capitalism is the final stage to eliminating the classes.

Again, I reiterate, its the ideological framework for communism

The crux of the issue is whether art is more important than the identity-profession of an "artist".

If you have emotionally invested yourself into the social achievement of being artist, you will want a living for it. It's a self-defeating position.

>>72953639
I see your out of arguments
>>72953698
>Also, I could provide plenty of examples of great artists dying completely unknown in capitalist countries,
"Great artist" is entirely subjective. And your moving the goal post

>>72953588
>marxism–Leninism, Leninism, Dengism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Council communism, Luxemburgism, Anarchist communism, Christian communism, Islamic socialism, Technicism, and various currents of Left communism.
Look up the defintions yourself. Some have states, some dont

>>72953667
There's no such thing as a communist state. If there's a state, it's not
>real communism

So the USSR

wasn't

>REAL
>communism

>>72953714
He heavily critiqued ideology my dude. How is historical materialism ideology?

>>72953829
>only my incredibly idealistic view of communism thats never existed in reality is the real one!

>>72953854
>How is historical materialism ideology?
Its a made up (borderline supernatural) idea

>>72953885
Ah yes anthropology is made up, thank you. Debunk it for me senpai

/mu/ should never talk about politics you're all so fucking dumb

>>72952848
wew

>>72953885
Is every idea thats made up also an ideology hmmm

>>72953733
I see your disgruntled
>>72953733
"Great artist" relative to influence and retained respect. And the point being that you criticized communism (which I'm not a communist by the way) for using a censor, yet the infrastructure of "art" in capitalist society continuously sets their own standards for what people will listen too. It's only recently with the internet that smaller artists have begun gain the ability to be seen and that's only in response to the fact that it's virtually impossible to make it into the public eye without a big time record company pushing you along on a leash. Oh yes, HAHAHA Tarkovsky was censored by the government, but we're basically being censored by the corporations which refuse to provide anything of value and anything beyond the same handful of people who, by the way, don't even make their own music.

So yes, now you can record and distribute online for cheaper, except everyone will just pirate and stream you anyways so now you're broke poor and need to find a "real job" in the "real world". Look at Michael Gira. He's the frontman of one of the most well known bands in, loosely using this term, Underground music and has been for decades. He lives in a generic middle class home. So yes, you can be self released, but you won't be an artist. People will laugh at you, "You're an artist? So why are you working at Best Buy?"
It's a trap.

>>72953862
You mean the original fucking version you retard?

>>72953733
>>72953942
I mean, we have a guy singing "Play that song... The one that makes me go all night long..." over "Chopsticks" on the radio right now. Art might as well be non existent to the public eye.

>>72952742
maybe but the proletarianization of music probably had a bigger impact.

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fuck all of you stupid commies

>>72952742

in the mainstream yes.

the average listener doesn't know shit about art and that rewards the most middle of the road musicians with an audience.

On the other hand the internet allows a greater number of artists to create and publish their work.

>>72953956
So the overly idealistic version that has never existed in reality?

>>72954246
>>72954258
>b-but greed isnt part of human nature, capitalism makes people greedy!

>low-key muh evil capitalism commie thread
Reddit needs to leave this board.

>>72954538
>human nature

dead meme

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>>72954542
>everyone who disagrees with me or has the ability to argue in favour of an idea they don't fully agree with (which is what most people here arguing in favour of communism is), need to get off of my safe space

Why is /mu/ the only board infested with retarded leftys?

>>72954581
You're a dead

>>72954619
Lefties*

>>72952742
There is still music being made that I enjoy, so no..capitalism does not seem to be destroying music.

>>72954619
>>>/lgbt/
>>>/lit/
>>>/co/
>>>/d/

Fuck off newfag

>>72954619
because only a minority of great music is right wing and we hate minorities here

>>72954619
what?
every board is filled with lefties besides /pol/
which is filled with lefties doing their best impression of an extremist rightie

>>72954619
Because other boards are infested with retarded rightys. The balance is at stake.

>>72954258
Which is exactly what this fraud was doing his whole life - bad art. Quite ironic.

>>72953430
>Marxism and lennism is a set of ideaologies that communism is based on
Holy shit all opinions in this thread can now be discarded.

>>72952742
Capitalism is stifling it, but technological forces are driving it exponentially more so we are net pretty positive right now.

>>72952947
in all other forms of government art has been funded, if it is present at all

>>72954542
>implying reddit isn't a bastion of brainwashed free market technocratic liberalism
You're the most basic bitch faggot itt.

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>>72954681
What if im not a retarded lefty or a retarded lefty? What if im just a liberal

>>72954915
Then by all most countries' standards you'd be centrist to center-right.

>>72954658
>/lit/
>/lgbt/
>lefy
Those boards /pol/ now

>>72954542
reddit is the most neckbeard libertarian place on the internet

you wouldnt have vaporwave if not for capatalism

athiests 1 christians 0

>>72952742
nope. without the patronage system I doubt we would have most of the classical music we do now. also I have no idea how an artist is supposed to support themselves in a communist state without making music for said state. i also think that with all of the niche markets available today for musicians, there are more ways to make a sustainable career doing what you want.

>>72953913
historical materialism is an unfalsifiable pseudoscience.

>>72952742
no, statism is destroying kids brains

There's an old saying; "Never listen to a musician talk about politics."

This applies to this thread.

>>72956355
it should be "never listen to an anonymous chinese music board talk about politics"

>>72952742
capitalist music already isn't an artform, it's a product. the artistic value of it is there but it doesn't compete with traditional or classical music. not like that's a bad thing though, i'm pretty sure most people including myself enjoy popular music despite itself

>>72956355
sounds like something a sweating fatcat capitalist would wheeze out

>>72952947
as it should be, music and culture should almost always be supported by the government

>>72956355
more like don't even bother with politics at all

>>72952742
Are you saying musicians shouldn't be able to eat pay their bills and put a roof over their head?

What about getting from point A to point B to play a concert? Gas aint cheap and that tour bus aint gonna magically fill itself up with petrol you know.

/leftypol/ needs to get the fuck out of muh Mongolian throat singing appreciation boards

>>72956496
this.

nothing good comes of politics.