You could either not pass at all, but get laid all the time,

XD

That's really stupid

I would rather pass and be alone since I will always be alone anyway haha lol

>>7752051
Pass perfectly but be alone. We're gonna have cyborg bf/gf's in the future anyway

I want somebody who loves me

>>7752529
Why would agp's not want to pass? Like lots of the agp fetish type stuff is all revolved around being a bimbo and whatnot.

Also the question she asked is kind of retarded. How can you be beautiful and not pass? Since when has anyone said looking like a man in a dress looks good? lol

>>7752051
Nothing is worth being alone forever so I have to chose the first even though getting laid all the time isn't worth not passing.

>>7752529
I can't comprehend being beautiful but unable to pass, so I can't answer the question properly.

Being plain doesn't mean I can't be pretty, so if that's what it means I'd pick being plain but attractive and passing perfectly over any kind of not passing.

>>7752565
>Why would agp's not want to pass? Like lots of the agp fetish type stuff is all revolved around being a bimbo and whatnot.
This. I'm agp and I want to pass. I don't even have a bimbo fetish. I just want to get to live as a girl and have relationships as one.

>>7752594
The author is a bit anti-agp I think. She wants to believe they are less female and she is more female, just like anti-agp posters on /lgbt/.

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>>7752051
I already pass pretty well (most of my friends think im just a sad cis lesbian, even the trans ones, confusingly enough) , and am mostly alone. Might as well aim for full loneliness.

>>7752051
I didnt know Taylor Swift had a sister(MALE)

>>7752613
That would make sense. I often notice that trans women who fit the 'hsts' type get endearing names like 'transkids' and 'trutrans' whereas anyone who is even suspended of having agp is labeled and identified solely on that term alone and constantly torn down and painted as a male pervert/fake trans. There's definitely real prejudice involved, no matter the lengths people who support the theory go to say it's "okay".

>>7752051
I pass better than this person, and I'm still getting FFS. Literally nothing else matters.

>>7752529
I fit the 'agp' model and i would definitely be happier being plain but 100% passing. And when I transitioned, I did it because I was confident that I could pass with enough time and effort.

>>7752051
Interesting. I'd think I'd rather people could tell I used to be male but still found me attractive, rather than be alone.

>>7752982
The prejudice also comes from agp trans women themselves who want to deny it. Self-hating agps really.

For both there is a belief that being agp is illegitimate.

It's defended with the claim that the rest of society will only accept trans women if they aren't agp, but that's just an excuse for people who have already decided to hate agps or deny agp exists.

>>7753219
It's true though. It's not just an empty excuse. Any odd fetish or sexuality is pretty heavily stigmatized and being a trans woman with agp carries twice the stigma, both within and outside the trans "community". Do you honestly think that cis people will accept a trans woman as a woman if they know her sexuality is what drove her to transition? Do you think cisgender women and feminists will accept a trans woman as a woman when they know that?

They deny it and wind up self hating because of how stigmatized it is and how both sides casually claim or passively imply that it immediately invalidates their dysphoria and identity. They're stuck in a limbo where they feel intense dysphoria but also deeply feel like every aspect of it is illegitimate or self-inflicted. Honestly the complete lack of any sympathy or empathy for trans women who happen to have agp is what annoys me most about people who support the typology.

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>>7753451
>Honestly the complete lack of any sympathy or empathy for trans women who happen to have agp is what annoys me most about people who support the typology
i strive as much as i can to avoid this, but i also recognize i am a flawed human being and fall into mental traps -- i also used to assume people who weren't suicidal about their dysphoria were 'less trans', but it's become increasingly clear to me that the influx in young extremely suicidal trans people (type-neutral, and myself included) is more social than innate
it's true that the biggest issue in the typology is the subconscious or open assumption that a*p = lesser, and fighting it is an uphill battle. it doesn't help that agp has taken on its own life outside the context of the typology as an insult (ironically an insult most thrown around by those who actively oppose the typology), and that the grapevine has divorced blanchard's work from its actual context and now claims he was actively working against the livelihoods of gynephilic trans women (never mind he was one of the few at the time sympathetic to them).
it's not an easy question and it doesn't have an easy answer.

>>7752051
Pass and be alone, obviously.

Shit life anyway, so I'd kill myself.

>>7752529
>tfw 100% agp but easily choose plain but perfectly passing
really makes me think

although i don't really understand what "beautiful and not passing" looks like. like a normal very attractive man?

>>7753475
We're never going to get past it imo. It will always be stigmatized and the assumption that agp trans women are 'less trans' and 'less female' will always be a facet inherent to the typology and the people that support it. If it becomes mainstream again it'll only make things worse and the damage it does will probably never be undone.

Tbh I'm fine with it being tossed in the bin. I get to keep this secret to myself and deal with it on my own terms.

>>7753538
Like Andreja Pejic I guess.

>>7753548
but she passes...and isn't exactly "beautiful". not unattractive of course though

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>>7753572
>Andreja
>passing

This is what hons have done to our standards.

>>7753580
>Andreja
>not passing

This is what BDDs have done to our standards.

>>7753580
Definitely not passing.

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>>7753590
>trannies forgot what AFAB faces look like

>>7753451
>being a trans woman with agp carries twice the stigma, both within and outside the trans "community".
That's the problem, not a justification for pretending agp doesn't exist or in the case of the agps-in-denial pretending you aren't agp.

>Do you honestly think that cis people will accept a trans woman as a woman if they know her sexuality is what drove her to transition? Do you think cisgender women and feminists will accept a trans woman as a woman when they know that?
Do you honestly think the way to win acceptance is by lying? These lies lead transitioned trans women into denial complexes and prevent people from transitioning, either by inducing self-doubt or creating gatekeeping.

>Honestly the complete lack of any sympathy or empathy for trans women who happen to have agp is what annoys me most about people who support the typology.
This is the cost of your policy of lying about agp. People know it is true and when your defense of it is pretending it doesn't exist, you are revealing yourself to be agp and failing to give them any reason for empathy.

Real sympathy comes from the truth and understanding agp properly, not denial.

>>7753475
>i strive as much as i can to avoid this,
Thank you.

>but i also recognize i am a flawed human being and fall into mental traps
Everyone does, the difference is between those who recognize and correct their mental traps and those who chose to find comfort in letting themselves believe them instead.

>>7753541
>It will always be stigmatized and the assumption that agp trans women are 'less trans' and 'less female' will always be a facet inherent to the typology and the people that support it.
Only if the people who don't want agp trans women to be stigmatized keep denying the typology's accuracy instead of making the case for their own acceptance.

>I get to keep this secret to myself and deal with it on my own terms.
That is throwing other agp people under the bus and stunting your own self-understanding.

>>7753580
I'm in disbelief everytime some retard here mentions how well he "passes".

>>7753684
i feel shitty enough as it is and have too many hills to climb to add one more. it's shitty but really cis people and young trannies need to be the ones to start it

>>7753732
I want to but I don't know how to start.

Transitioned agps, non-transitioning dysphoric agps and cis agps need to together defend being agp.

>>7753763
>cis agps

You people are ridiculous.

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>>7753766
are you intentionally implying that all agps are trans?

>>7753766
Why does agp trigger you?

>>7753781
What would a cis agp even look like? How would their sexuality manifest?

>>7753786
A straight or gay male who experiences AGP fantasies.

FtMs can also experience AGP.

It's not limited to trans women, although there are differences in the other kinds.

>>7753808
Oh, I thought you were referring to cis women for some reason. When I think "cis equivalent to trans women", I automatically think of cis women lol

>>7753810
Some les/bi cis women may do.

I don't know if their AGP would be closer to cis male AGP or FtM AGP or to dysphoric/trans MtF AGP.

>TFW you're already option #1

>>7753684
>That's the problem, not a justification for pretending agp doesn't exist or in the case of the agps-in-denial pretending you aren't agp.

It's completely justifiable to deny it publicly or keep it to yourself when it is already so heavily stigmatized. Coming out as agp is like coming out as a pedophile or a sex offender. Denying it internally is a problem tho but it's completely understandable considering the circumstances. Ideally it shouldn't matter whether or nota trans woman has it.

>Do you honestly think the way to win acceptance is by lying? These lies lead transitioned trans women into denial complexes and prevent people from transitioning, either by inducing self-doubt or creating gatekeeping.

The self-denial many trans women have is caused by their dysphoria, the stigma and the typology's passively implied or assumed notion that trans women who experience agp are "lesser than" This is a real problem that needs to be addressed before people risk their necks by owning up to having it.

Lots of closeted trans women with agp get even more self-doubt when they read up on the typology and how it's supporters view trans women with it. Look at /agpgen/ and how so many of them, despite the sympathetic atmosphere of the general, choose to repress because they're convinced they're just a man with a fetish and not "trutrans". Gatekeeping based on the typology used to be a problem in the old days but not anymore. WPATH supports transition for all trans women regardless of sexual orientation.

>This is the cost of your policy of lying about agp. People know it is true and when your defense of it is pretending it doesn't exist, you are revealing yourself to be agp and failing to give them any reason for empathy.

The stigma was there long before trans women were denying it. The type of people who use a trans woman's reluctance to admit she has agp as an excuse to justify their own negative biases against her have already made up their mind.

(cont.)

>>7753684
>Real sympathy comes from the truth and understanding agp properly, not denial.

I agree, but you're not gonna get it anytime soon. Society isn't ready for it yet, they can barely understand transgenderism as it is. And there's underlying problems with the typology that need to be resolved as well.

>That is throwing other agp people under the bus and stunting your own self-understanding.

Hardly. I often console other trans women who experience it and reassure them that even if they do have it, it doesn't invalidate their dysphoria and identity. Thrusting the typology into the eyes of the mob of idiots that make up the public will only hurt the trans women who have the condition. And trans women with AGP are doing a lot better today than ever before in our history, with no thanks to Blanchard and his supporters.

I admit, I struggle with the fact and it causes me a lot of pain but I don't internally deny I experienced agp. Still, I'm not going to paste it onto myself as something that defines me and clamor for sympathy from people that already hate me. Call me selfish if you want, but at the end of the day we're all on our own.

>>7753894
>the typology's passively implied or assumed notion that trans women who experience agp are "lesser than"
That is not assumed or implied by the typology. That is your and many other trans people's interpretation based on their own assumptions and their own implicit belief in a 'trutrans' narrative in order to reassure themselves that their dysphoria is 'legitimate'.

While cis people do believe this narrative too, it is trans people who reinforce it on themselves. Cis people will never stop believing it if trans people don't.

>Lots of closeted trans women with agp get even more self-doubt when they read up on the typology and how it's supporters view trans women with it.
They get self-doubt because they know the typology applies to them but people like you tell them they are less trans for it. The reason you perceive the typology's supporters to view trans women negatively is because people who don't view trans women negatively chose to attack the typology for its truth.

>Look at /agpgen/ and how so many of them, despite the sympathetic atmosphere of the general, choose to repress because they're convinced they're just a man with a fetish and not "trutrans".
The typology could help them with properly understanding themselves and making a better decision. Instead, it is suppressed and denied and simultaneously used to deny their transness by other trans people, many of whom are agp themselves but don't want to admit it.

The problem isn't the people who believe in the typology. It's the people who don't.

>Gatekeeping based on the typology used to be a problem in the old days but not anymore. WPATH supports transition for all trans women regardless of sexual orientation.
The typology is more than sexual orientation. Unless it is known to therapists then there will inherently be gatekeeping due to pretending that there is a single trans type and etiology.

>>7753983
>>7753894
>The type of people who use a trans woman's reluctance to admit she has agp as an excuse to justify their own negative biases against her have already made up their mind.
If they are already against you, why are you afraid of admitting it?

>>7753900
>Society isn't ready for it yet, they can barely understand transgenderism as it is.
Thanks in part to the dishonesty you are pushing.

>And there's underlying problems with the typology that need to be resolved as well.
Which will never be fixed while it is denied for political reasons.

>Hardly. I often console other trans women who experience it and reassure them that even if they do have it, it doesn't invalidate their dysphoria and identity.
You are the homosexual of the past saying that being gay doesn't mean you have anything to do with those filthy crossdressers, while comforting them and telling them you share their experiences in the next breath.

>will only hurt the trans women who have the condition. And trans women with AGP are doing a lot better today than ever before in our history, with no thanks to Blanchard and his supporters.
Trans women are hurt by the misinformation you spread. The reason so many people in /agpg/ repress is not because of the truth Blanchard explored but because of the lies against that truth that you and others enable.

The lives of agp trans women are ruined by the likes of you, despite the insight offered by Blanchard that could helped them immensely.

>Call me selfish if you want, but at the end of the day we're all on our own.
You are the opposite of selfish, you are self-harming and keeping us, including yourself, on our own.

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>>7752529
I wouldn't choose either one.
I would want to be pass AND be beautiful.

I feel like I'd be very unhappy if I didn't meet both requirements as to me they are necessary for my mental/physical health.
I probably have BDD too so that's probably why being beautiful is equally important to me.

>>7753983
>That is not assumed or implied by the typology. That is your and many other trans people's interpretation based on their own assumptions and their own implicit belief in a 'trutrans' narrative in order to reassure themselves that their dysphoria is 'legitimate'.

It is though. Blanchard literally says that bi/les/asexual trans women are just men who took their fetish too far. That's why TERFs, transphobes and conservatives love drawing from it so much, it reinforces all their negative biases and stereotypes they have against trans women. Look at Anne Lawrence or sillyolme for example. Lawrence says it bluntly while sillyolme uses the research to passively imply it while giving herself and other trans women who fit the 'hsts' profile an endearing name. She even goes as far to say that straight and non-straight trans women should be segregated in the ways men and women are. And I can find much worse interpretations of the typology. Don't pretend that this isn't a problem.

The 'trutrans' narrative was made up by and for straight trans women and they reinforce it. Some know there's truth to it in Blanchard's typology so they use it to disparage non-straight trans women, who they wish to distance themselves from, while also validating themselves as legit. Non-straight trans women naturally feel inadequate and want acceptance so they mimic that narrative. You honestly expect them to tell their therapists, friends and families that they wanna transition because their fetish got out of hand?

>While cis people do believe this narrative too, it is trans people who reinforce it on themselves. Cis people will never stop believing it if trans people don't.

Please, you actually think trans people have any real pull in what society thinks? We're less than 1% of the population as a whole and trans women are a fraction of that. They're always going to have their own reservations about what it means to be trans.

(cont.)

>>7752529
pics?

>>7752982
>the 'hsts' type get endearing names like 'transkids' and 'trutrans'

'trutrans' is just a reclaimed version of 'truscum', which was coined in opposition to 'tucute' ('tucute' being "you don't need dysphoria or transition to be trans, you've just gotta belieeeeeve~", which is 'too cute'. And 'truscum' being "trans is a medical condition and transition is medical treatment." Which apparently renders one outright scum).

I agree that there's often prejudice against agp, and that trutrans has definitely gone from 'not a literally fake transtrender' to 'not agp, implying agp is fake', but I'm just saying. Everyone's hated by someone.

>>7753810

Different anon, but I'm pretty sure I've seen people posting evidence that cis women experience agp. And I mean, why wouldn't they? Enjoying your own body is somewhat of a prerequisite to normal sexuality.

>>7753983
>They get self-doubt because they know the typology applies to them but people like you tell them they are less trans for it. The reason you perceive the typology's supporters to view trans women negatively is because people who don't view trans women negatively chose to attack the typology for its truth.

I don't think I'm the type to tell a closeted trans woman that they're less trans for having AGP. Blanchard's supporters and agp hating trans people are more likely to do that. The reason they get self-doubt is because they often desperately want to be women and whatever book, study or blog they're reading about AGP essentially tells them that they're just taking their fetish too far.

So are you going to tell me that TERFs, and social conservatives don't view trans women negatively?

>The typology could help them with properly understanding themselves and making a better decision. Instead, it is suppressed and denied and simultaneously used to deny their transness by other trans people, many of whom are agp themselves but don't want to admit it.

The typology and it's supporters say they're just crazy men with a fetish. If you want them to repress then that would be a good tool to use. I won't deny that what you say about some trans people doing to them isn't a problem, but don't pretend that the other side doesn't do it as well.

(cont.)

>>7753983
>The problem isn't the people who believe in the typology. It's the people who don't.

Both sides have done harm. Please don't pretend that this is a one sided issue.

>The typology is more than sexual orientation. Unless it is known to therapists then there will inherently be gatekeeping due to pretending that there is a single trans type and etiology.

The core of the typology is centered around orientation, especially with the agp group. Gatekeeping based on a belief in only one, true type and etiology may be a thing in shitholes where trans rights have yet to progress but it seldom happens in nations that properly abide by WPATH's standards of care.

>If they are already against you, why are you afraid of admitting it?

People are reluctant to own up to someone's negative assumptions about them, no matter how true they are. If they weren't such assholes about it then maybe more people would open up to it. These people need to be welcomed and reassured that it's okay to have agp, not callously prodded, dissected and accused.

>Thanks in part to the dishonesty you are pushing.

I'm not pushing anything. I don't publicly talk about AGP. I'm not a figurehead for the trans community.

>Which will never be fixed while it is denied for political reasons.

Once the other side ceases to use it for harmful political purposes we'll start seeing trans people being more open about it.

>You are the homosexual of the past saying that being gay doesn't mean you have anything to do with those filthy crossdressers, while comforting them and telling them you share their experiences in the next breath.

I admit, I scoffed at that. That's hardly comparable to what I said and even less comparable to what I actually do.

(cont.)

>>7754004
>Trans women are hurt by the misinformation you spread. The reason so many people in /agpg/ repress is not because of the truth Blanchard explored but because of the lies against that truth that you and others enable.

Don't accuse me of that. I don't spread anything. I don't tell other trans women that they're just men with a fetish. I don't tell them that AGP doesn't exist. I don't tell them that they're any less trans for having AGP. I don't take Blanchard's typology and use it to advocate for "bathroom bills", and stripping trans women of their legal rights and healthcare.

>The lives of agp trans women are ruined by the likes of you, despite the insight offered by Blanchard that could helped them immensely.

You're accusing me of way too much now. Blanchard's work did more harm than good for non-straight trans women. Instead of offering them insight into their condition, it just misgenders and pathologizes them while giving anti-trans advocates a weapon to use against not only them but other trans women.

I'm gonna stop now. I'm tired and this conversation is getting way too personal. I'm sure you mean well but I think you're just lashing out at me at this point.

>>7752051
PASS! I'm fine with being a virgin.

>>7754181
imo you should post your take on this in /agpg/

>Both sides have done harm.
what have they both done?

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>>7753674
>cunts forgot what AFAB faces look like

>>7754234
>cis woman takes drugs to beat her and gets DQ'd
>gold goes to her instead
top kek

There's some major misinformation in this thread. You can reject the typology while acknowledging autogynephilia, as in being aroused by the thought of being a woman and/or womanly, is a thing and that a disproportionate amount of pre-everything transsexuals are autogynephilic when compared to the general population. The data supports that. What the data offers no support for is two separate etiologies or ETLEs. Consider Nuttbrock's research:

>"Twenty three percent of the homosexuals reported lifetime transvestic fetishism compared to 81.7%, 67.7%, and 66.7% among the heterosexual, bisexuals, and asexuals, respectively."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894986/

Pretty far from two clear-cut types, right? but wait, the rabbit hole goes deeper!
>"A strong association was also observed between ethnicity (measured as White versus non-White) and lifetime transvestic fetishism, χ2=61.3; df=3; p=.01. Whites were about twice as likely as non-Whites to report all measurements of transvestic fetishism."
This strongly hints that AGP is caused by social and external, not neurological, factors. That hardly matches the profile of ETLEs. If AGP is not innate but a disproportionate amount of people with or who will go on to develop gender dysphoria experience it what does that tell us? To answer that we need to consider the nature of AGP. Medically and socially transitioning for a lengthy period of time usually makes one cease to be AGP. Folks like Blanchard try to attribute this to AGPs experiencing a "romantic, non-sexual" love for their female self, with HRT quenching true sexual desire by lowering one's libido. While it is true that HRT lowers one's libido what is also true is that transwomen are still otherwise generally sexually active, so this is not a plausible explanation even if we disregard the absurdity of the borderline schizophrenic motives Blanchard ascribes to (ex)autogynephiles. 1/2

>>7754261
>Whites were about twice as likely as non-Whites to report all measurements of transvestic fetishism.

This isn't surprising at all, since "HSTS" was already code for "black and Latina trans women who are poor and resort to sex work".

>>7754261
This, combined with AGP being socially induced rather than innate, strongly points to AGP being a fetish. It also explains why some cis men have it without being dysphoric. If AGP is a fetish we have two options open to us:
1. A fetish causes someone's gender identity to flip and experience crippling gender dysphoria.
2. Dysphorics or pre-dysphorics develop the fetish as a coping mechanism, in the same way trauma or repressing certain aspects of ourselves causes the development of other fetishes.

Given that other fetishes generally don't have such an impact on individuals I think the latter is far more plausible. 2/2

>>7754261
i've read nuttbrock too, and those conclusions aren't reasonable
>Pretty far from two clear-cut types, right?
that kind of correlation is pretty incredible in the social sciences. it's on the low end for typology-related research, which usually hovers around 15/85, but fits with previous papers. also, as /agpg/ will tell you themselves, a huge chunk of agp is not transvestic fetishism -- that's, you know, why we're calling it autogynephilia *instead of* transvestic fetishism. a*p is an umbrella term for everything beneath the banner of cross-sex autoerotic fantasy.
>This strongly hints that AGP is caused by social and external, not neurological, factors
the correlation between agp and race doesn't mean agp is caused by external factors, it means *the decision of agps to transition* (and that of hstses, for that matter) is influenced by external factors
it's really hard to be trans, and it's especially hard to be a late transitioner. essentially the only people who can pull off late transition and retain a reasonable quality of life have the following traits:
>individualist culture, individual happiness valued over group harmony
>higher socioeconomic status
>more liberal environment
someone who has all those traits is much more likely to be white than someone who doesn't. white agps transition more than nonwhite agps because they're more likely to be in a context where agp transition is viable. on the other end, hstses are more likely to transition in a context where hsts repression is *less* viable -- and it's only viable in contexts where you can get away with being an extremely effeminate gay man, which again in the west is usually amongst white people. therefore, nonwhite hstses are more likely to transition (and for the same reason hstses -- and borderline hstses -- are more likely to transition at lower socioeconomic strata historically, though less now because transitioning super young (prepubertal) requires a fuckton of money)

>>7754273
also, in case your planned rebuttal was 'if they were studying agp instead of transvestic fetishism why didn't they just say it?':
nuttbrock is an *opponent* of blanchard and the typology
of course he wasn't going to use blanchard's terms while expecting to disprove him

>>7754273
Thank you for taking the time to answer me.

>that kind of correlation is pretty incredible in the social sciences. it's on the low end for typology-related research, which usually hovers around 15/85, but fits with previous papers.
If you suggest two separate etiologies with no overlap then 20/80 is not good enough. If Blanchard merely claimed that there is a correlation instead of implying one deterministically causes the other he wouldn't be wrong.

>a huge chunk of agp is not transvestic fetishism
Yes, but transvestic fetishism as part of AGP is nigh-universal.

>the correlation between agp and race doesn't mean agp is caused by external factors, it means *the decision of agps to transition* (and that of hstses, for that matter) is influenced by external factors
That's a fair way to read the data. I concede that we can't tell whether AGP is socially induced from just that line, though I think the rest of the information still strongly points to AGP being a fetish and not an orientation.

>white agps transition more than nonwhite agps because they're more likely to be in a context where agp transition is viable
Hypothesis: this might be down to being educated enough to recognize yourself as trans despite being AGP. See the correlation between AGP transitioners, social status and IQ.

>>7754274
Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't want to argue that in the first place - that would just make it harder for me to show that the study relates to AGPs.

>>7754291
>If you suggest two separate etiologies with no overlap then 20/80 is not good enough.
Obviously that depends on the traits. This isn't a disease with symptoms, it's something in people's minds, and human minds are infinitely diverse.You will never find total correlation on anything in this field, not least because of the inherently subjective ways in which these traits are defined, questions are answered and self-knowledge of respondents is accurate.

>>7754291
>If you suggest two separate etiologies with no overlap then 20/80 is not good enough
>Yes, but transvestic fetishism as part of AGP is nigh-universal
these dual assumptions explain each other
transvestic fetishism is absolutely not a universal aspect of agp, especially amongst younger agps. that is specifically the reason blanchard calls the etiology of 'nonhomosexual transsexuals' (yeah, 'autogynephilic transsexual' is never actually used in blanchard's writings -- that's a bailey-lawrence construction) autogynephilic rather than transvestic, unlike his predecessors (yeah, blanchard was not the first typologist -- and if you think he's bad you should look at those guys). he coined the term 'agp' *because* he met crossdreamers who didn't crossdress and realized he needed an umbrella term. there's also accounting for social desirability bias (the infamous lying that blanchard's opponents criticize), but it's less important than the aforementioned opponents assume.
on the androphilic trans women with transvestic fetishism end, sexual orientation changing from gynephilic to androphilic during transition is pretty common. here's a first-hand account:
http://annierichards.com/mysexuality.htm

>>7754312
Blanchard quite plainly stated that all transsexuals fit into one of his two groups, and that each group has a clear-cut set of traits. He claimed that was the case because the causes of their transsexuality were distinct from one another.
I agree people are infinitely diverse. The typology does not. Furthermore the information we have on hand does not back the typology. What it does back is that non-straight transsexuals are four to five times more likely to have (or, in my view, develop) AGP.

>>7754261
>>"Twenty three percent of the homosexuals reported lifetime transvestic fetishism compared to 81.7%, 67.7%, and 66.7% among the heterosexual, bisexuals, and asexuals, respectively."
Maybe the typology is otherwise right but the correlation with orientation is just a generalization. Asexual transsexuals could be AGP two thirds of the time and HSTS the rest.

Orientation being varied doesn't disprove two clear-cut types. It just means they don't correspond perfectly to orientations.

>>7754261
>>7754274
Transvestic fetishism doesn't have to be AGP. It could be emasculation or other fetishes.

>>7754326
>I agree people are infinitely diverse. The typology does not.
Obviously it needs to be understood with the knowledge no generalization about humans is going to be total.

>>7754325
>>7754327
i should also note i agree that the orientation-type correlation is not 100%, which again serves as an explanation for some gynephilic hsts trans women, but i believe this only within specific contexts and don't buy that it works both ways (auto*gynephilia* without *gynephilia* is hard for me to accept)

>>7752051
im already the second case lmao

>>7754325
I did not say it was universal, only nearly so. Enough for the 80% figure to be fairly close to the number of autogynephiles.

>on the androphilic trans women with transvestic fetishism end, sexual orientation changing from gynephilic to androphilic during transition is pretty common
Funny, since I recall Blanchard twitting about how this can't happen. Either way, are you implying that all of the androphilic trans women who responded used to be gynephilic before taking HRT? Don't you find such a complex explanation more suspect than the simple alternative that there is a correlation but no separate etiologies?

>>7754334
>but i believe this only within specific contexts
What contexts?

>and don't buy that it works both ways (auto*gynephilia* without *gynephilia* is hard for me to accept)
It would appear to contradict the erotic locator error idea for that reason, but I believe it can happen for people who are exclusively transvestic, behavioral and interpersonal in their AGP, not anatomic or physiological.

>>7754350
>the simple alternative that there is a correlation but no separate etiologies?
Then what is the single etiology?

>>7754350
>Funny, since I recall Blanchard twitting about how this can't happen
that would be...odd, given meta-attraction (pseudo-androphilia, as he calls it) is a massive focus of his research
>Either way, are you implying that all of the androphilic trans women who responded used to be gynephilic before taking HRT? Don't you find such a complex explanation more suspect than the simple alternative that there is a correlation but no separate etiologies?
no, i think the rather simplistic explanation is that for someone who gets off on the idea of being feminine, having sex with men can be an aspect of that femininity
>>7754352
>What contexts?
a substantial minority of specifically bisexual trans women, especially those who are primarily attracted to men
we know now that predominantly-androphilic bisexuality is very common in women, and in our sexually free age that's increasingly visible in both cis and early-transitioning trans (e.g. jazz jennings) women

>>7754327
>>7754331
Here's the thing: there are no real legs for the typology to stand on if you don't take the deterministic view. It is quite a stretch even if you have a perfect near-100% divide between the groups because there is no evidence for the actual cause of the difference between them, but if you lack even that there is little reason to believe this is any more likely than any other unbacked hypothesis.

>>7754356
I can't answer that because I don't know. I have guesses, mind, but I can't present them as facts.

>>7754360
>that would be...odd, given meta-attraction (pseudo-androphilia, as he calls it) is a massive focus of his research
He wasn't talking about what we call meta-attraction, but about female-attracted MTFs telling him that they hope that HRT will make them attracted to men, which he said can't happen.

>no, i think the rather simplistic explanation is that for someone who gets off on the idea of being feminine, having sex with men can be an aspect of that femininity
I think you're dismissing every androphilic AGP as being merely pseudoandrophilic because it fits the theory when you should be questioning the theory.

>>7753451
>It's true.
>Any odd fetish or sexuality is pretty heavily stigmatized.
>Do you honestly think that cis people will accept a trans woman as a woman if they know her sexuality is what drove her to transition?
>Do you think cisgender women and feminists will accept a trans woman as a woman when they know that?
TLDNR: Our culture has contempt for orgasm. When orgasm is our motivation for any thing, our culture denies us right to that thing. RIGHT?

>They deny it and wind up self hating because of how stigmatized it is.
TLDNR: Many AGPs are fooled into radical transfeminism (including SRS as the ultimate "cure" to AGP) by our culture. RIGHT?

But 4chan has called me "a shitposter" and banned for saying either.

Why are you allowed to say what I am not?

>>7754360
That's less a specific context and more just cis female sexuality.

>>7754362
>there are no real legs for the typology to stand on if you don't take the deterministic view.
What do you mean that couldn't be said of any psychology?

>because there is no evidence for the actual cause of the difference between them,
What evidence would you expect to see if it was true?

>>7754384
What are your guesses?

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>>7753580 >>7753590 >>7753665 >>7753691
>Cara
>passing
The only feminine thing about him are his chromosomes.

Repressing gays and pedophiles cope by rebranding "unfeminine" as "feminine". Instead of fucking boys, they force adult women to become boys. It's their revenge on the society.

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>>7753590 >>7753674 >>7754234
>all white people (trannies, gays, Asians and paedophiles) forgot what ADULT WOMEN look like

> pass perfect
> be alone
Me irl

>>7754406
>Many AGPs are fooled into radical transfeminism
--> >>7754385

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>>7754407
>What do you mean that couldn't be said of any psychology?
Psychology as a field is fraught with seminal works that purport to prove something.. and other seminal works that purport to prove the opposite. I think that until we have ways to directly study the mechanisms of our minds we need to be extremely cautious about grandiose claims that suggest direct causation rather than gentle correlation (see image; 4chan won't let me link the Nature article).

I think we have very strong evidence for certain psychological phenomena, such as "watching ads causes some people to be more prone to purchasing the products depicted in those ads" or "explosions sometimes cause individuals to become shellshocked". I think we don't have such evidence when it comes to many big claims made by famous psychologists.

>What evidence would you expect to see if it was true?
I think proving causality is quite difficult. The typology suggests that HSTSs are gay men who are so feminine that they transition in order to better fit into society. If that is the case then a progressive society where extremely feminine men are accepted and cherished ought have next to no HSTSs and more oppressive societies ought create more HSTSs. The problem is that even this is not an ironclad way to prove that because more welcoming societies might be easier to repress in, but that's a start.

I'm struggling to think of a way to falsify ETLEs, which is a strike against them. Maybe advances in neuroimaging?

>What are your guesses?
I support the natal hormonal exposure hypothesis, especially since there is evidence for it being the cause of homosexuality. Research has shown that lesbians are significantly more masculine than straight women and vice versa for gay men and straight men. Transsexuality might be a step beyond that. A form of neurointersexuality.

>>7754473
>>7754476
Good link.

>>7754494
The name of the article is "Should social science be more solution-oriented?". It is open-access on Nature.

>>7754494
What does that have to do with whether not not we take the deterministic view?

>I'm struggling to think of a way to falsify ETLEs, which is a strike against them.
Isn't that true of everything in psychology?

How would you falsity your claim about watching ads makes some people purchase products for example?

>Maybe advances in neuroimaging?
How could neuroimaging disprove ETLEs?

>Research has shown that lesbians are significantly more masculine than straight women and vice versa for gay men and straight men. Transsexuality might be a step beyond that. A form of neurointersexuality.
Lesbians and gay men are already one form of neurointersexuality if you are right.

>>7754529
>What does that have to do with whether not not we take the deterministic view?
It doesn't, because that is not what I've been asked in that post.

>Isn't that true of everything in psychology?
>How would you falsity your claim about watching ads makes some people purchase products for example?
You can point out a correlation without knowing the mechanism. We know that advertising works because, over a very large number of trials, we've documented that people who've been exposed to advertisement are more likely to purchase the advertised products. We even have various guesses as to why, but we don't know the exact mechanism.

Blanchard lacks evidence that A causes B rather than the other way around, or that A and B aren't both caused by hidden cause C. We don't have a clear timeline showing that AGP always precedes transsexuality (even though it does often precede dysphoria). He also proposes an exact mechanism - ETLEs - and presents it as factual rather than just an hypothesis.

>How could neuroimaging disprove ETLEs?
Prove or disprove! If we could actually read the flow of data and understand what the brain is doing proving or disproving ETLEs would be feasible.

https://www.ted.com/talks/miguel_nicolelis_a_monkey_that_controls_a_robot_with_its_thoughts_no_really

>Lesbians and gay men are already one form of neurointersexuality if you are right.
That's an interesting point.

I'm not 'afraid' to come out as 'agp' you loons, I don't deny it because of stigma. I fapped in panties. So what.

What I contend against is that something as intense as my dysphoria and identity just sprung up out of fapping in panties. It's absolutely absurd.

>>7754565
Oh btw id choose plain and passing. I want a normal life.
t. Panties fapper

>>7754562
Let me add that I've spoken to a few AGPs who wished to be girls when they were very young. This is not to stay that they weren't already AGP, as children can show signs of having a fetish, but it wasn't arousing to them. Long-term AGP causing the development of a cross-gender identity is a tall claim when it could easily be the other way around.

>>7754562
>It doesn't, because that is not what I've been asked in that post.
The question was about your use of "the deterministic way" here:
>>there are no real legs for the typology to stand on if you don't take the deterministic view.
>What do you mean that couldn't be said of any psychology?

>We know that advertising works because, over a very large number of trials, we've documented that people who've been exposed to advertisement are more likely to purchase the advertised products.
What is the evidence that that is the causation, and not the other way around, such as products that are more popular to some people are more likely to be given adverts?

>Prove or disprove! If we could actually read the flow of data and understand what the brain is doing proving or disproving ETLEs would be feasible.
Give me an example of what the flow of data might look like to prove or disprove them?

>>7754574
Why is it a tall claim?

What exactly is a gender identity? The experience of dysphoria for a body that doesn't match the identity?

>>7754473
>>7754476
>I'm trutrans, so I'm a feminist. The only "trans women" who would be offended by feminism are the ones who see themselves as fundamentally male, and therefore believe that feminism is out to get them. Really no different from betas.
It may sound as if I contradict my former post but... she's partially right.

Just as there are two strains of trans (AGP and "tru"), so there are two strains of feminism:
1. /pol/'s beloved strawman "radical" "feminazi" feminism,
2. forgotten sensible feminism.
Those two strains of trans and feminism are parallel. Their common denominator is the contempt for orgasm (a.k.a. sexual aversion, sexual puritanism, erotophobia, bigotry, prudery, sexual repression) or lack of it.

When I talked about "AGPs being fooled into radical feminism", I talked exclusively about "feminazi" feminism. Transgender "feminazi" feminists are really trans-TERFs (if anyone can even conceive such a thing): the only reason they aren't TERFs is that they are... trans. They are a living contradiction, like Nazi Slavs.

Which kind of feminist is >>7754385? It's plausible that she's a mixture of both.

>>7754601
>the only reason they aren't TERFs is that they are... trans
when you're talking about 'feminazis', are you discussing the gender studies sjw stereotype or are you talking about a more terfy brand? because i absolutely know mtf terfs

>>7754590
>The question was about your use of "the deterministic way" here.
Oh. The typology presents a deterministic "All HSTS are like this because being like this is the cause of being a HSTS and all AGPs are like that because the cause of being like that is AGP". A deterministic relation. The 20/80 figure undermines it.

>What is the evidence that that is the causation, and not the other way around, such as products that are more popular to some people are more likely to be given adverts?
Lab-restricted experiments with control groups taken from similar backgrounds, using fictional products.

>Give me an example of what the flow of data might look like to prove or disprove them?
I don't know how that'd work since I'm not a neurologist. That video shows an example of a mechanical device reading a biological arm's input from the brain and transfering it to a mechanical arm. If we could similarly read "the code" of the parts relating to ETLEs we could confirm or deny the error.

>Why is it a tall claim?
Because there is no evidence for it.

>What exactly is a gender identity?
That's a tough question. An innate desire for a body that matches your gender identity, as you suggest, seems like a good answer. The issue is that even HSTSs don't always immediately know that this is what they desire and it sometimes takes them years to figure it out.

>>7754601
>forgotten sensible feminism.
Explain?

>Those two strains of trans and feminism are parallel.
But feminist strains are ideological differences, not psychological ones.

>>7754609
>i absolutely know mtf terfs
LOL??? Do they call themselves "unwomen" or what?

>the gender studies sjw stereotype
>a more terfy brand
1. Is there even a difference?
2. I'm agnostic about the word "SJW". I literally don't know what it means. Does Donald Trump oppose social justice? Orwellian nonsense.

>>7754651
>LOL??? Do they call themselves "unwomen" or what?
most of them are actually decent people who i agree with more than i do the trans mainstream, but that's a relative term because the trans mainstream is fucking insane
here are some relevant blogs:
http://snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/
http://transcultist.tumblr.com/

>>7754625
>The typology presents a deterministic "All HSTS are like this because being like this is the cause of being a HSTS and all AGPs are like that because the cause of being like that is AGP". A deterministic relation. The 20/80 figure undermines it.
As opposed to a "more likely" relation like the advertisement correlation?

>If we could similarly read "the code" of the parts relating to ETLEs we could confirm or deny the error.
I'm not a neurologist either but that example is the "output" of the brain being read by a machine. What equivalent thing could be read to test ETLEs, which aren't an output but an internal reason within the brain?

How would even reading the inside of the brain and seeing whatever corresponds to AGP thoughts or arousal tell us anything about ETLEs?

>Because there is no evidence for it.
Then isn't the other way around, AGP causing a cross-sex identity, equally tall a possibility?

>and it sometimes takes them years to figure it out.
If they do figure it out, rather than it developing.

>>7754648
>ideological differences, not psychological ones
Ideology reflects psychology.
So they CAN be parallel.

>Explain forgotten sensible feminism.
I already did. I said one is characterised by the contempt for orgasm and the other one isn't. It shouldn't be hard to say which one is which?

I hate explaining explanations but here you go:
>a feminism which isn't simply "patriarchy in reverse"
>non-oppressive feminism
I could go on and on.

>>7754670
>who i agree with more than i do the trans mainstream,
What do you agree with them about?

>>7754670
I'll keep these links for later. I can't keep opening every link on every page.

>>7754673
>I already did. I said one is characterised by the contempt for orgasm and the other one isn't.
I disagree that feminism that isn't contemptuous of orgasm/sexuality is sensible or forgotten, or isn't patriarchy in reverse in a certain manner or isn't oppressive.

Also, presenting it as a dichotomy of contempt for orgasm/sexuality vs no such contempt misses different attitudes towards male and female sexuality.

>>7754671
>As opposed to a "more likely" relation like the advertisement correlation?
Yes, but there is a second big difference: the typology purports to show a mechanism. The advertising data in the example I've given is mechanism-agnostic. "A often leads to B but we're not sure how". Another issue is the timeline.

>What equivalent thing could be read to test ETLEs, which aren't an output but an internal reason within the brain?
Presuming that you're a materialist (I am) then reasons and everything else are also encoded somewhere, somehow. A line of code might not tell you what it does by itself but looking at all of the code together might tell you what it achieves.

>How would even reading the inside of the brain and seeing whatever corresponds to AGP thoughts or arousal tell us anything about ETLEs?
If ETLEs are indeed errors then we can spot them by contrasting them with the function of a normal brain.

>Then isn't the other way around, AGP causing a cross-sex identity, equally tall a possibility?
I think it is sensible to argue that the null hypothesis in this situation is that the two are not related in that fashion.

>If they do figure it out, rather than it developing.
Fair point, but given how transsexuals are not responsive to conversion therapy (much like homosexuals) I suspect that the condition is innate.

Let me pose you a question for a change: I'm curious, have I swayed your opinion at all?

>>7754689
>misses different attitudes towards male and female sexuality
That's because in "my" feminism there's only ONE sexuality... or lack of it! :^)

To claim otherwise is to perpetuate gender inequality, which degrades feminism to reverse patriarchy.

"Female sexuality" is mostly an euphemism for asexuality... by asexual feminists and sadistic patriarchy alike. Those two groups are really worth each other. More connects them than separates them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

TLDR: There is no "female" sexuality; all sexuality is phallic. Men don't have a monopoly on phallus any more than women have a monopoly on nipples.

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>>7752051
Pass.
I could have a normal female life, a job where I don't have to be on perma boymode, be treated properly by my family, friends, etc.

Literally all I wanted, the sex is not even in my top 30 list I could just buy a magic wand, get 10 cats and become the crazy cat lady that I was always meant to be.

>>7754711
>Presuming that you're a materialist (I am) then reasons and everything else are also encoded somewhere, somehow. A line of code might not tell you what it does by itself but looking at all of the code together might tell you what it achieves.
But ETLEs aren't a proposed "code" that does something. They are a proposed logic behind what the code achieves.

>If ETLEs are indeed errors then we can spot them by contrasting them with the function of a normal brain.

Whatever AGP is will be a contrast with a different brain, so how would we be able to tell if a difference is ETLEs?

>Fair point, but given how transsexuals are not responsive to conversion therapy (much like homosexuals) I suspect that the condition is innate.
That's assuming that gender identity and orientation would be changeable with conversion therapy if they aren't innate. I don't think that's so.

>Let me pose you a question for a change: I'm curious, have I swayed your opinion at all?
Honestly, no. But please don't be disheartened. I've tried to ask the questions that would reveal anything that might change my opinion, and although I don't agree, I have learned about the view I disagree with. I think we disagree very fundamentally, so neither of us could change the other's opinion on this topic without a larger change of opinion.

>>7753071
>wants to be attractive but not passable
A G P
G
P

>>7754815
>But ETLEs aren't a proposed "code" that does something. They are a proposed logic behind what the code achieves.

>Whatever AGP is will be a contrast with a different brain, so how would we be able to tell if a difference is ETLEs?
If the "code" does different things then we ought be able to see what. This is currently beyond us but honestly that monkey video is pure science fiction and also 5 years old.

>That's assuming that gender identity and orientation would be changeable with conversion therapy if they aren't innate. I don't think that's so.
If a fetish can change them, why not conversion therapy?

>Honestly, no. But please don't be disheartened.
Thank you for being honest and kind.

>>7754907
>If the "code" does different things then we ought be able to see what.
I'm suggesting we'd see a difference from a non-AGP brain have no way to connect that different to proposals like ETLEs.

>This is currently beyond us but honestly that monkey video is pure science fiction and also 5 years old.
Just a matter of time for fully realistic entire prosthetic bodies for human brains.

>If a fetish can change them, why not conversion therapy?
AGP is thoughts, conversion therapy is learned aversion through trauma.

>Thank you for being honest and kind.
:)

>>7754940
>I'm suggesting we'd see a difference from a non-AGP brain but have no way to connect that different to proposals like ETLEs.

>>7754943
Are you really going to pick on someone for absent-mindedly typing the wrong word?

>>7754958
It was my own post, I added the missing "but" but you're right, "difference" was another mistake.

>>7754993
Whoops, sorry!

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>>7754742
>I could have a normal female life, a job
Literally every trans woman I have seen... each one is a disgusting normie inside.

>>7755742
>Normies
>Mastering God's programming language

>>7755765
>God's programming language
Javascript??? LOL.

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>>7755785
little mortal.. pitiful mortal..

>>7755810
Stop it! I thought you wanted to pass...

>>7755848
It is said that anyone who fully comprehends LISP becomes an anime girl. This is why so many of us are studying it.

>>7755871
Great... except you're not gonna pass like that. Everyone knows that anime girls are just men on anti-androgens.

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>>7755906
>Implying I won't be a kawaii christmas cake programmer.
>Implying when I move to japan I won't have a shitload of cute younger guys wanting get a slice of keiki-chan.

>>7754362
Are you >>7748347 >>7749144 ?

>>7755940
Nope.

>>7755916
>File: 1472878037766.png
Alright. I want your breasts now. I need to sink my swollen dick in your boobs before I cum everywhere.

>>7755916
You're guilty of cum spillage. Thankfully, nothing got wasted: I cummed into a plastic box and consumed it.

>>7755742
>implying i wouldn't prefer to be a NEET
impossible for a tranny, possible for a female
but that would require being a houseslave to some abusive chad or neckbeard, which is frankly about as bad as a job so there's really no winning

>>7756670
why can't a tranny be a neet? just find a nicer guy than a chad or neckbeard.

>>7756670 >>7756681
Because a tranny can't become a capitalist?

>>7756714
this is a form of capitalism.

>>7756681
men are universally disgusting and abusive, being a "NEET" when you're just a houseslave is not being NEET at all

>>7756782
better than being a neet tbqh

>>7752051

I would choose to pass.

>>7752051

WOW SHE IS HOT MOAR PLZ

>>7756934
Chasers leave

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>>7756943

>>7757192
>A leaf calling out trannies on their bullshit.
I feel conflicted.

>>7757192
I'm just saying, nobody but a chaser could think that thing is hot

>>7757208
Well put.
t. chaser

>>7754151
>>7754181
>>7754207
You are willfully ignorant of the harm your dishonesty does to trans people despite it being shown to you. That's inexcusable.

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>>7752051
What the hell is this choice bullshit supposed to be?

I received #B for some reason. No idea why.

So, fine, that's what I get, that's how it's supposed to be. Sex is fucking disgusting and "friendships" I know for a fact to be sick and fucked up.

>>7754573
>I want a normal life.
Found another normie.

Were I trans, the latter option (Pass perfectly, but never get laid) is more appealing.

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>>7755916

All trans women choose this point to stop conversation.

Even more useless than cis women.

Asexual people, get in here.

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>>7755916
Tease and abandon.

About the only thing impotent creatures can do well.

>>7755916
Trans women can't get boobs like that without BA

>>7752051
not pass, but be accepted enough to get the kind of treatment from men during sex that I want.

>>7763083
I've seen some naturally large trans breasts. So there is hope.

Ironically, that trans woman is raising money to get rid of them and to revert to a man.

>>7752529
I'm 18 and 100% AGP, but this is a no brainier. I want to pass.

>>7757208
>Still hotter than majority of the pigs on this planet

>>7763083
>Muh surgery is bad meme.
All she needs to do is go to japan and get fat implants instead.

Boom, JAV tier boobs any size she wants with natural feel.

>>7766378
>any size she wants
Not if autogenic fat.
Where do they carve it from?

>>7766378
Also, how to make big nipples?

Big breasts with itty-bitty masculine nipples look terrible.

>>7766378
I don't believe it's bad, I'm just saying.

>>7766584
Are you stupid? HRT makes your nipples grow to the size of Russia.

>>7766604
So why do most trans women have dried berries for nipples?

>>7766662
..... ?????

Not been my experience at all, idk what trans women you've been sleeping with or how far along they were into HRT, etc.

>>7766676
>what trans women you've been sleeping with
Just look at shemale porn.

>>7766676
>>7766685
Here, let me google it for you.

http://archive.is/2017/https://www.google.com/search?q=shemale+porn&tbm=isch

Via archive, to avoid filter bubble (different results for me and for you).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble

>>7766685
>shemale porn
That's not a good source to learn anything about trans women, since they have different hormone regimens to keep dick functional, or just don't take HRT at all and get surgeries.

>>7766584
>>7766604
>>7766662
>>7766676
>>7766685
>>7766662
>>7766604
Actually I can answer that.

So, basically most boobies you see are either from MtF that have been only 3 or less years on HRT and most of them also either are on AA + E or had orchi/SRS and are just on E.
To get proper breast growth including nipples / aureolas you will require progesterone too but self medding with that is bad the wrong dose will either get you to start lactating (I'm not even joking here and it will hurt) or you may get really sick.

The best way to do it is to have an endo and do HRT the legal / proper way, there's also the fact it won't be instant you will need like 5 years of proper HRT (Estrogen and progesterone) to get proper tanner IV breasts, tanner V is just impossible in most cases because you didn't start HRT when you were 14 year old like a girl will naturally start getting the proper hormoneal dose.

Also to the anon that took shemale porn as an example for MtF breasts, come on buddy most just had silicon implants and don't even do proper HRT because they NEED THEIR DICK TO WORK.

>>7766700
What's odd is that I can totally see what you're talking about, while also recognizing those don't look like my nipples at all. Weird. Maybe it has to do with what the other anons said, about shemales getting implants before their boobs grow, and not taking the same kind of HRT.

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>>7766704 >>7766708
>different hormone regimens to keep dick functional
Are you implying that THE BEST trans women might not be using anti-androgens??? Doesn't it run counter the whole /mtfg/ lore? I've been inquiring /mtfg/ about such regimens for ages! To no avail. They've been reporting me to mods for attempting to explore alternatives to the Only Correct HRT.

Please, tell me the secret of Carolina Ramirez! She cums more than a man.

>>7766584
>How to make big nipples? Big breasts with itty-bitty masculine nipples look terrible.

>>7766604
>HRT makes your nipples grow to the size of Russia.

>>>/r9k/34912858
>I'm surprised that Lolo has such large areolae, which are normally an indicator of naturally large breasts.

>>>/r9k/34912904
>It's not unusual for aerolae to be stretched with implants, it's more the nipples themselves that tend to be small.

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>>7766747
>Please, tell me the secret of Carolina Ramirez! She cums more than a man.
Literally no HRT at all like most shemales / sex workers in south america so they can perform properly when fucking their clients.

As for cumming a lot, I think I have a meme picture from /g/ that actually will get you to cum buckets.

Those supplements make you produce a ton of the stuff.

>>7766807
Thanks for the /g/ starter kit :).

>Literally no HRT
How is she so beautiful then?

>>7766830
Plastic surgery, makeup and being a cute feminine latino boy.

No really, that's pretty much it, they are cheaters in the passing world like asians.
Every single south american boy can probably become a cute tranny if they wanted...

>>7766807
1. After clicking on the picture, I don't know if you are trolling or have sent me a wrong picture. You are literally trying to make me impotent.
2. I already do some functional programming in Javascript. Does it mean that I need to stop it to cum more?

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>>7766859
Cecithin, zinc and pygeum are the supplements that make you cum buckets though.

>>7766852
>being feminine
>cumming buckets
I'm more confused than ever. So are they high-test or low-test? If they were medium-test, they would be neither feminine nor cum buckets...

>>7766852
So basically, FFS can fix your face even without HRT? Just what surgeon are these girls going to?

>>7766921
Don't count on that if you can afford being on HRT yourself.

As for surgeon, I heard brazil has some great ones (they mostly do cis women though and they are extremely expensive, like hollywood start surgeon expensive like Ivo Pitanguy or something like that from my little googling of the region).

>>7766927
I've been on HRT for a long long time, now I'm just trying to figure out a way to pay for FFS and GRS lol

>>7766892
Google the shit in that post and stop asking how to cum a lot.
>>7766887

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Sorry, friends. I was busy eating pizza to boost my stomach growth.

>>7766940
You keep giving me incorrect or incomplete answers.

>stop asking how to cum a lot
>implying I'm asking how to cum a lot
I already cum a lot. The question is how to cum a lot AND BE A WOMAN like Carolina Ramirez. None of your things will work for someone without high testosterone. They are simply nutrients. It means that they don't change anything in healthy people. They might help malnourished people to restore ORDINARY function, but even this not without high testosterone. How does it square with being a trans woman?

>Google the shit
>implying I haven't heard about this shit
>zinc
Mineral, precursor of testosterone. Simple nutrient.
>lecithin
Magical ingredient. Placebo, maybe source of choline for spermatogenesis. Simple nutrient.
>pygeum
Herbal drug. Shrinks your prostate, like anti-androgens. Sounds like the opposite of what I asked for.

>>7769319
Don't exactly pass as AFAB in this picture, but you're obviously hot and will fool most cis people, so whatever.

>>7769328
Indeed, I'd trade AFAB for this "man" any day.

However, I'm a bit worried what happens to feminised men in old age. You don't see many of them. At least this one has had some fun in her prime. What about trutrans though? They are nearly asexual. Are they all really trans grannies-in-waiting? What man would want to marry a granny trapped in a young trans woman's body?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady-in-waiting

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>>7770823
>However, I'm a bit worried what happens to feminised men in old age
i've met some women who transitioned in their late teens/early twenties in the 1970s and early 1980s
they age on the worse end of the female norm, and a lot of women in late middle age/early old age are a bit monstrous looking as is
however, they don't usually become terrible-looking, and these things can be mitigated through cosmetic surgery just as in other aging women
also, part of the problem is that ffs didn't exist when those women were transitioning -- female aging reveals some of the masculinity on an otherwise feminine male face that passesd without ffs, but that's less of a thing on trans women who got it

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>>7770847
I can understand the appeal of being a woman in her prime.

However, what's the appeal of being a frail granny when you could be an old bear? Is this kind of transition worthwhile as a life goal?

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I offer a much simpler quizz than OP.

"You could either not pass at all...

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>>7770987
...or pass perfectly. Which would you choose?"

:^)

>>7770954
mtf transition is not on the basis of being a woman in her prime, it is on the basis of being a woman at all
given that until very recently the average age of mtf transition was in middle age, the majority of trans women would never be women in their prime at all, but that didn't stop many people from going through with it

>>7752051
That's honestly a stupid set of options - obviously not passing but getting drilled constantly is the only legitimate answer. If your answer is anything but you're not actually interested in being a real galore female and just have mental problems or ridiculous porb addictions that have skewed your thinking. I'm a pretty masculine fag (bottom) and if I had the chance to be a female whether it would be through modern science or just being born that way I'd ensure all my holes were being abused 24/7 because that's what it's all about. If you disagree you're fooling yourself or have mental problems and I honestly can't believe this thread has made it to 120+ replies desu senpai. Don't even bother lying to yourself anymore - being an effeminate little bitch/failure of a man does not make you a real tranny and all you're doing is degrading those who really are "different" by thinking otherwise. Time to kys

>>7771011
>it is on the basis of being a woman at all
I know this. I'm just wondering how aware of this trans women themselves REALLY are. Maybe more are AGP than realise. Or not.

The ultimate test of TruTrans-ness: how many would rather be THE WORST a cis woman can be than THE BEST a cis man can be?

However, passing this test might not necessarily be a victory. Like >>7771020 said, choosing to be a woman even under such unfavourable conditions reeks of mental illness. Have I just destroyed the idea of TruTrans-ness?

Perhaps I haven't invented anything new here. But it's new to me.

>>7758807

We already have
>>7758217

It's fairly obvious what I'm going to pick. I'd prefer to pass perfectly than never get laid at all.

(apologies for namefagging. I don't namefag outside of /acegen/, but I felt I needed to for this)

>>7771245
You didn't solve my "granny test" and my "ultimate test" though.

>>7771106
the problem is that you're assuming trutrans to be a meaningful concept, when hstses and a*ps are equally valid in their transsexualism overall
both groups will be driven by the idea of being a woman-at-all, but agps will actually be more driven by this overall, in that things such as passability are statistically less important to them (not universally, but on average)
i would also argue that >>7771020 is not necessarily an accurate perception of transsexualism, in that it is a very, very male way of perceiving what being a woman is all about -- some agp trans women have that perception of womanhood, but many don't

>>7771465
>but agps will actually be more driven by this overall, in that things such as passability are statistically less important to them (not universally, but on average)

Does this mean that I'm not AGP, since passing is the only thing that is important to me (valued even over friendships etc).

>>7771471
>statistically
>not universally
>on average

>>7771485
I just think it's a bad system of categorization when you can't even identify the members of each group consistently.

>>7771490
really, i don't care if someone who fits the hsts profile has fetishistic motivations or someone who fits the a*p one does, though i've noted the vast majority of claimed exceptions i've met...aren't
what i care about is that i was fucking lied to for five years that all trannies are just different points on the same snowflake, and experienced untold suffering caused by the complete lack of recognition that my experiences are almost the inverse of my aap peers
how do you expect someone who was lied to for five years about the most important thing in his life to feel when he discovers not only that it was all complete bullshit, and every single part of it could have been avoided, but that the lie lived so long only because people didn't want to admit what they jack off to?

>>7771520
I'm trying to understand your post.
1. The majority of transsexuals (whether Homo-Sexual Trans-Sexual or Autophile) you've met aren't fetishistic.
2. You were lied to for 5 years that all transsexuals are like autoandrophiles (that MTFs are fetishistic like FTMs).
3. People have degraded you as a fetishist/AGP only to make actual fetishists look as good as you.

That's what I got, and it took me 20 minutes to make sense of it. I guess this thread died because no one is sure what points you make.

>>7772791
that's wrong on every point
>the majority of trans people i've met fit the a*p description and have clearly fetishistic backgrounds, a smaller number fit the hsts description and do not, but if i met someone who fit the a*p description but claimed to lack fetishization or fit the hsts description and had it i wouldn't particularly care -- it wouldn't do anything about the description they fit
>i was lied to for five years that all trans people are fundamentally the same and all transition due to brain sex/gender identity/etc when the reality is more complex
>i am ftm and extremely different from the majority of ftms i've met in that they were all aap and i was not, i was very confused for a long time about why everyone was so different from me in ways that are pretty fundamental to the condition of transsexualism, i was also sexually manipulated at some points by older aap trans men with strong andromimetophilia, all this could have been avoided if i knew transsexualism is more than one condition and instead looked for people who share the specific condition i have

>>7752051
Are you retarded? What kind of fucking question is this? Who the fuck cares what anyone else thinks of me I just want to be another faceless female ignored and not want to rip my own face off 24/7. Hell I might even take a real vagina and look like Zangief.

>>7772814
>i am ftm
That's a big difference :). I assumed you were >>7771471.
>I'm/I'm not AGP.

>>7771520
>though i've noted the vast majority of claimed exceptions i've met...aren't
Examples?

>>7772814
Speaking of FTMs...

I would like to find for once a fetishistic FTM with dysphoria/autoandrophilia focussed ONLY on genitals and strength – with autogynephilia for everything else including breasts. Why is there no such person in the whole world? Isn't the world supposed to be a "diverse" place?

>>7773206
You'd have a better shot at finding an MTF with AGP only for the rest of their body and no dysphoria for their genitals.

Especially since you probably want your FTM to also not be dysphoric socially, not want to be treated as a guy, be happy dressing as a girl, etc.

>>7773224
It's just as hard... despite SOMEHOW thriving shemale porn industry. 99 in 100 namefags in /mtfg/ hate their penis. 99 in 100 want to be "cute anime girls". 99 in 100 want to have frail bodies without muscles. And most importantly, 100 in 100 take anti-androgens... even those who claim to like their penis and muscles.

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>>7773283
Why do you want a muscle trap?

>>7773292
being a muscle trap is great

t. muscle trap

>>7773292
>Why do you want a muscle trap?
Not trap. Traps are boys in skirts. I want a woman. Your manga is "good enough" to turn me on because that boy is drawn like he has some curves but I like adult women.

>Why
Healthy bodies bathed in sex hormones is what turns me on. I don't consider frail women without sex drive "sex material". Why is that so strange for literally everybody?

>>7773359
Estrogen and AAs kinda turned me frail, but I would rather be a woman than a little girl, unlike the majority of posters in mtfg, you're kinda right about that tbqh

>>7773366
Nice to see a trans WOMAN for once :). As opposed to trans loli.

>>7773366
>I would rather be a woman than a little girl
WHY

>>7771520
>>7772814
I'm sorry that you you felt alienated. I'm sorry you were abused. That still does not make the typology less of a lie. Just a different lie.

>>7773997
>sorry you were abused but i'm going to keep calling information that could have saved you a lie

>>7752051
is somewhere right in the middle an option?

>>7773601
>would rather be a woman than a little girl
>WHY
LOL. Maybe because she likes real men such as me.

Wait... this would imply that she'd rather get laid than... pass AS A LOLI. Mind blown!

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>pass

In whose eyes?

Paedomimetophiles'?

>>7775124
thats a goddess right there. show some respect

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>>7775387
But trans women do everything to never be like her.

>>7775541
thats really too bad. she is really sexy

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>>7775701
I want to be your flat mate.
All I need is people who like what I like.
I wouldn't need to hide my porn from you.
And we could hunt for women together.
Maybe even one of us could become one of them.
We could turn your flat into Shemale HQ.
We could rear illegal dickgirl immigrants.
We could wake up to fresh milk every day.

>>7775846
sure. when and where?

>>7774161
This is not how the truth works.

>>7776096
Today in your flat? :)

>>7777777
The end is nigh.

>>7752051
Well I pass and have a bf so I'm all fine.

>tfw I'll never be a lonely hon

>>7752051
>not pass at all, but get laid all the time
I could already do this, if I wanted. If I were comfortable the way I am, I could just be a gay guy. But I'm not and so I just don't pursue sex, I never have.
So just now I don't pass at all, and I don't get laid at all, even if I could.
Passing is more important than intimacy, simply because I can't get intimate with anyone if I don't pass anyway.

>>7752642
would take you

>>7752051
I guess im already in the first category cause im getting laid and am turning people down to avoid being any more degenerate

>>7781762
>getting laid
>degenerate
die, SJW

>>7783472
You got that backwards, I'm as /pol/ as it gets m8

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>>7783592
Exactly, you are politically correct.

>>7754118
>Blanchard literally says that bi/les/asexual trans women are just men who took their fetish too far. That's why TERFs, transphobes and conservatives love drawing from it so much, it reinforces all their negative biases and stereotypes they have against trans women.
That's a misinterpretation. It's no more taking a fetish too far than HSTS are gay men wanting to date straights and not be called gay. Technically true but missing out far too much.

>Look at Anne Lawrence or sillyolme for example. Lawrence says it bluntly while sillyolme uses the research to passively imply it while giving herself and other trans women who fit the 'hsts' profile an endearing name.
Lawrence is AGP herself and thinks AGPs should be understood and allowed to transition and be women.

Silly ol Hon is just hateful and wants to use the typology to reinforce her bigotry. Saying the typology should be suppressed because of that is like the Christians saying evolution is bad because Hitler was a Darwinist.

>>7757192
funny pic.

>>7766708
3 years HRT
been on progesterone for 6 months

my nipples have literally stayed the same since like 1.5/2 years in

im actually glad for it because pepperoni nipples are disgusting

>>7788008
>pepperoni nipples

Y-YAMETE

>>7786025
>Technically true

This is all they care about. How can it be called a misinterpretation when it's objectively true?

>>7788148
it's technically true that every single trans woman is male in some way
if you assume from this fact that every single trans woman in the world is going to look and act exactly like a cis guy and have the exact same desires and want to be treated the exact same way, that's not going to work out well
your argument is akin to 'if trans women are technically male, why can't i just treat them like men?'

>>7788179
That's the exact argument they use. At that point it's just constantly seeking to justify everything. Why should people treat trans women like women if they're technically male? Why should they be allowed into female spaces? Why should they get to chang their documents? Why should they be allowed to transition when it's all really a carefully constructed and maintained exercise in self-delusion?

>>7788221
who is 'they'? you were originally implying blanchardians but seem to have switched to terfs
if you are trans, it should be clear to you how stupid treating trans people as their natal sex is, and you should be able to recognize that arguments based in technicalities are equally stupid
so why would you make them when dealing with *your own condition*?

>>7788237
The majority of TERFs are Blanchardians. Most people who buy into the typology have a similar worldview when it comes to trans people.

I don't buy into the arguments myself but it's not exactly easy to defend myself or justify myself when it essentially boils down to "muh feels" and has no objective basis in reality.

>>7788252
>The majority of TERFs are Blanchardians
they really aren't, though if you were specifically referring to terfs who are also trans women (yes, they exist) you'd be correct
terfs accept the existence of autogynephilia, but so does /agpg/ and they sperg out when you mention blanchard
terfs just tend to claim all trans women are agp rather than some
>I don't buy into the arguments myself but it's not exactly easy to defend myself or justify myself when it essentially boils down to "muh feels" and has no objective basis in reality
so you made a bad argument only because you yourself have no idea how to argue against it?

>>7788271
Idk. You're correct about TERF trans women but I think it's also applicable to detransed FtM TERFs and the cisgender women who are slightly more educated on transsexualism. A common TERF talking point is that straight trans women are just femmy gay men that were too effeminate to fit in and transitioned because of harsh gender roles. They even gp as far to label transition as a form of conversion therapy used on gay men and lesbians.

I admit, I presented the argument in a "devil's advocate" kind of way. Maybe I've just read one too many TERF blogs and I've internalized the rhetoric, but I haven't yet heard an argument that's compelling enough to refute it.

>>7788302
>detransed FtM TERFs and the cisgender women who are slightly more educated on transsexualism
the kind of terfs i read most are the ftmtf kind, given as i'm a trans man and an old friend of mine is now one of them
they tend to know approximately nothing about blanchardianism and freak out when i suggest that straight/bi ftmtfs could have had autoandrophilia as a factor in their transitions (even though even the ''''''lesbian'''''' ones tend to fit that profile really well)
they harp on the 'transition is conversion therapy' bit, but that's not actually blanchardianism -- the idea that transition is simply the most recent of all society's ways of dealing with 'unusual' women (and people in general) can be formed completely independently from the works of ray blanchard and isn't really backed up by them anyway
>Maybe I've just read one too many TERF blogs and I've internalized the rhetoric, but I haven't yet heard an argument that's compelling enough to refute it
it's more that you appear to think technicalities are at all relevant to day-to-day life and that's why you struggle to refute it
technically humans share 97.5% of our dna with mice, but if you go through life assuming you should treat mice and humans in very similar ways as a result you're not going to get very far

>>7788327
But technicalities do matter a lot in daily life when you're trans. Have you ever not had to worry about passing, finding clothes that fit, telling friends and potential dating partners that you're trans, wishing you had the right genitals or genes? It just keeps going on. Maybe you don't have to worry about those things as much cause you're a trans man but technicalities often do cause a lot of stress if you're a trans woman.

>>7788366
>Maybe you don't have to worry about those things as much cause you're a trans man but technicalities often do cause a lot of stress if you're a trans woman
this fucking meme
oh no, it's super easy for a 5'5" man with wide hips to find clothes that fit! dating? no problems at all, i'm definitely not restricted exclusively to tumblrina landwhales who want to score some progressive points! passing? not a problem, who's ever heard of a butch lesbian? dysphoria? absolutely has nothing to do with my decision to transition at all!

my triggers aside, you don't seem to understand what a technicality is. the fact that hsts people are in some sense homosexuals of their natal sex, or that a*p trans people are in some ways members of their natal sex with unusual sexual orientations, or that mice and humans are genetically pretty similar, is completely irrelevant in day to day life and does not influence how any reasonable person would treat trans people/humans. shopping for clothes as a 5'5" wide-hipped man does inform my day to day life, but my chromosomes are pretty irrelevant to it.

>>7788393
Your chromosomes are the underlying reason you're a 5'5" man with no dick and wide hips. Mine are the reason I'm a 5'9" woman with a dick and narrow hips.

Everything you talked about is stemmed from the fact that you were born female. Technicalities do affect our daily lives dramatically whether you believe it or not.

>>7788453
people don't see your chromosomes any more than they see the massive amount of dna you have in common with a mouse

>>7788393
>oh no, it's super easy for a 5'5" man with wide hips to find clothes that fit! dating? no problems at all, i'm definitely not restricted
So basically, just a subset of MTF problems?

>>7788469
by thr same logic, your problems are a subset of mine
trans problems are trans problems and don't really give a shit which direction you're going in

>>7788462
And you talk about me spouting memes...Of course people can't see your chromosomes, but they can see the effects of them and draw a conclusion. They can see that you're really short and look like a butch lesbian. They can see that I look like a crossdressing man. People take what they see and use it to determine how they're going to treat you.

Your chromosomes altered your body irreversibly and people treat you differently because of it. Sure, your chromosomes don't matter at all. I'm sure they have no connection whatsoever to the fact that you can't pass or are restricted to dating tumblards who essentially want a butch lesbian.

>>7788481
It doesn't work that way, no. All those problems affect trans women just the same, plus plenty regarding passing, which can't be just fixed by E. So if those are the biggest issues you experience, MTF problems are clearly a superset of them.

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>>7752051
Pass perfectly and be alone. It's not like I've ever dated anyone anyway ;~;
At least passing would make it so that my reflection doesn't ruin my day.

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>>7788686
being hot but not passable
>my reflection ruining my day
being a passable abomination
>my reflection not ruining my day

Yes, gender dysphoria is... irrational.

>>7788393
>the fact that hsts people are in some sense homosexuals of their natal sex, or that a*p trans people are in some ways members of their natal sex with unusual sexual orientations, or that mice and humans are genetically pretty similar, is completely irrelevant in day to day life and does not influence how any reasonable person would treat trans people/humans.
The core problem here is that thanks to gender roles men and women are treated very different ways in the first place. If they weren't, then the problems for trans people over being treated as their natal sex would disappear.

>>7753538
I'm "beautiful but passing," i guess and it sucks. I'm androgynous, but not in a way where I could be both--more like neither, somehow. I have facial features that are "attractive" and people find me "attractive" but it never works out for me. Lesbians aren't really into me, nor are straight women, and neither are straight men, or gay men. And bisexuals don't like their peas in their potatoes a lot of the time.

People seem to view my face from an aesthetic point of view, more like a sculpture than a human being they could be attracted to.

Plus the nature of my face does this weird thing no matter what I do, I don't pass. I get clocked mtf trying to pass female and ftm trying to pass male. I get ID'd as whatever gender I'm trying not to be. I look more female with facial hair and more male without it, etc. I'm absolutely fucking perplexed about the whole thing.

I went to a FFS surgeon and they told me they couldn't even figure out what to do to my face to make it look more female.

>>7793791
>beautiful but passing
I meant NOT passing, sorry. Typo.

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>>7753538
>i don't really understand what "beautiful and not passing" looks like.
>like a normal very attractive man?
No, like an ABNORMAL very attractive woman, I guess.

Like a very attractive woman with one or two unredeemably masculine aspects: voice, face, beard, hairy boobs, high IQ.

I guess the idea of uneven beauty is beyond conceivable for 98% of trannies, like "you can't be attractive with an ugly face". Which makes alleged "trutrans" reek of dysmorphophobia (OCD) and misconception.

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>>7795843
To be clear, the last part ("high IQ") was my joke to highlight the hypocrisy of compulsively binary trannies who pursue 100% passing destructively at any cost blindly to the point of self-harm without discerning between FUNCTIONAL sex traits and DYSFUNCTIONAL sex traits (side effects of sexes). They literally fetishise DISORDERS of manhood/womanhood. In the name of passing, they look up to mediocrity and malignancy instead of THE BEST of target sex.

>>7795869
You're the weirdo who thinks that we shouldn't take AAs if we want to be thicc, right?

>>7795874
>wanting to know identity of anon
Are you so afraid of losing in fair debate that you want to attack a person?

Trannies confirmed for oppressive.

4chan image server died.

DDOS?

Where is >>>/q/ when you need it? Instead, moot supposes me to ask server questions in random threads. Well played, moot.

There is of course the "feedback" page... with the last answer dating back to 2015. Awesome joke. Broken bureaucracy is so funny. Not.

>>7766708
>Progesterone grows breasts
Stop this hon-science

>>7752529
>2017
>people still believe in the debunked theory of AGP
Wew lad

>>7796434
>Debunking soft-science