Cornucopia of Resources / Guide
Read the guide before asking questions.
Previous thread: >>17611798 →
This thread is for the discussion and learning of Japanese with raw VNs, LNs, Jdrama, anime and manga.
If you have no interest in otaku media or want to request a translation, this is not the thread for you.
Remember to sage!
>spend about a year learning kanji and grammar and shit. nowhere near fluent but feeling good about my reading and sentence composition
>go to Japan
>every time anyone says anything it just sounds like "ching chong ding dong -shimasu"
It's a good thing they have signs for everything. I haven't understood a single thing anyone has said to me except for when the cashier at the konbini asked if I wanted my noodles heated up. So, heads up to any new learners.
>Although I don't know how to "practice" listening.
Watch anime you've seen subbed without subs. This way you already know what's going on which it makes it easier to figure things out that you otherwise might not have understood. Cute girls doing cute things shows work best since the language is generally simple, they generally take place in school settings so have the common school-related vocabulary that shows up in lots of weeb media, female speakers enunciate things more clearly than male speakers and speak in more standard/less slangy Japanese so they're a lot easier to understand, and most importantly you don't really need to fully understand what's going on to enjoy it since there's no real plot to speak of.
Attention span is plays an important role in this. You have to try to remain attentive or your brain will just go into TV-watching zombie mode and stop paying attention to what the characters are saying.
Also, it can help to listen to the same thing over and over again. With every repeated listen (up to a certain point), your brain notices more and more things which it missed the first time round. You don't actually have to watch the episode again though, you can just listen to the audio from it while doing other things. When an episode is fresh in your memory you will be able to remember what was happening on screen at the time while just listening along, so there's no need to actually watch it more than once.
I practiced listening by making an audio anki deck with just voices on the front side using rikaisama to save the audio. And then I combined it with watching all my anime without subs. It's working well for me so far.
I'm trying to read Yotsubato as according to the guide but it's such a slog to read through, I swear 95% of it is just kana! Do you all have any recommendations for something a bit more readable?
I configured the real-time import feature as written in the guide and it's working fine. However the audio part is not working? When I add simple kanji to the deck I'm not getting any audio.
>having studied for nearly four years
I've studied for five weeks so I'm not at that level to read only kana. I just want something more readable for my level because whenever I try to read I look at a few pages of Yotsubato I put it right back down and try again a few days later only for the cycle to repeat. To improve I need to read and I need to start reading with something a bit simpler
If you're at five weeks literally everything is going to be a slog whether it's written in half kana or not. It's probably a good idea to look for other manga if you're considering it, but don't think it'll solve that problem.
>There are easy manga with furigana that aren't Yotsuba. There's so many that if you look it's impossible not to find something compelling.
>You can preview random manga (to see if it's easy) by googling the name of the manga plus 立ち読み or 試し読み. For example:
>You can also just browse those digital manga sites and look for interesting manga that way instead of starting with the name.
>Once you find a manga that's fairly interesting, google its name plus "zip", or search for it on nyaa. You'll find a pirated version 90% of the time or more.
There is literally nothing that will be easy for you to understand at 5 weeks of learning, except contrived textbook sentences that use the few words you already know. You have to start somewhere, and wherever you start will be difficult.
Don't expect to understand the whole thing, just try and pick out some sentences that you can read and figure those out. A tool like Rikaichan can help you figure out the boundaries between words, if that's giving you trouble.
I'm at week one but I gave up on manga for the time and instead I'm trying to read NHK easy news like anon recommended last thread. It's much more interesting for me than something like Yotsuba
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/k10011137151000/k10011137151000.html for example
dont worry i got something that im sure youll mostly understand and pick up some new things as well while being in all kana! you dont have to join the idiot crowd who deciphers texts way above them 1 word at a time
Just get the reading guide. I had problems at first reading it as well, because of all the slang I am not used to, since I only knew textbook stuff at that time. The reading pack helped a ton, currently reading the third volume. There are still some sentences I dont understand, but in those cases I just look the sentence up in the english version and try to make sense of the words.
Since I couldn't find it in the guide: does anyone have any /djt/-approved video games? Since I started learning only recently, going through long blocks of text like in VNs still feels like a pretty big slog, whereas in games it at least gets interspersed with some combat or cutscenes or whatever. RPGs seem perfect for this, since they have a lot of text but often not so much that it becomes a chore.
I'm enjoying Digimon Adventure for PSP so far, much of the dialogue is voiced, and all the dialogue (although not the menus) have furigana, so that's pretty useful. The only downside is that the resolution is too low to read everything effectively, some of the kanji are hard to recognize and the furigana is absolutely tiny (although in my case it does motivate me to learn to recognize the kanji better rather than focusing on the furigana). It's also a game for kids so the dialogue is simple enough.
After this I might go for Tales of Phantasia X, it's also almost fully voiced although it doesn't have furigana.
/vr/ usually recommends Pokémon games, but since they're almost completely in kana I find them very difficult to read effectively (although games past gen V do have kanji).
>does anyone have any /djt/-approved video games?
No such thing but basically anything with cutscenes that pretend to be like a VN (compile heart's recent games are a good example, including neptunia, fairy fencer f, moero, etc) will work well. Texthookers probably won't work but in such games you can use scrollback and replay voice lines.
I completely agree with him
what does the たん in the middle stand for?
>compile heart's recent games are a good example, including neptunia, fairy fencer f, moero
A lot of the steam releases for those don't have kanji
>Superdimension Neptune VS Sega Hard Girls
>Fairy Fencer F Advent Dark Force
are about the only ones i can be bother to confim that do
Also, fuck xseed while we're at it
Just check the store page dude. If it says Japanese text that means it has Japanese text.
The PSP versions of FF1 and 2 allow for switching between English and Japanese from the menus at least.
Also if you want to do ToP, someone wrote out a transcript of (all?) the Japanese text in the PSP version, spanning several pages. Handy for looking things up.
Thanks for the tips. I actually own the English version of one of the Neptunia games, but I gotta say, it wasn't my cup of tea. The story and dialogue was okay, but the gameplay was really dull. But I didn't play very much of it.
I like it, it looks really good. I'll give it a shot.
Awesome, thanks. Didn't know there was a transcript available! I know most of the plot since I played both the SNES and GBA versions before (neither of which had great translations, the first had the 'Arche fucks like a tiger' line from that one fan translator, the other one was the official translation which translated 'Ragnarok' into 'Kangaroo'), but it'll definitely help for the less easily legible kanji.
Is it just me or does shinmoemanga have some pretty bad scans (if they're scans)? My memory might be playing tricks on me, but I remember scanlations as being better quality than the raws uploaded here.
I think I'll just go physical with everything, but I'd still like to ask: how is the quality on digital manga that's for sale on sites like honto?
The language in anime is broadly the same as what people speak in real life. The only "problem" is that it's scripted and professionally performed so the language is unnaturally perfect (you miss the lazy, slurring together of sounds, mumbling and mistakes that occur in real speech).
You can make the same complaint about any other form of media though, besides maybe shitty game shows and panel shows on TV which are a bit more improvised and one-take-only affairs, but even then people are going to be speaking with unnatural levels of care and formality since they're on TV rather than idly chatting with a friend or acquaintance and don't want come across as boorish and unsophisticated to the people watching.
In terms of helping you get used the patterns of grammar and the flow of sentences, anime is as good as other media.
>Don't be so matter-of-fact about it!
is this a subs2srs error or am i totally missing something here?
isnt it rather something like:
>what? calming voice, get out there!
obviously anime uses japanese therefore its valid as a form of input right but i only said it wont help you understand real people or help you interact with them really at all which is still the truth generally
why do you talk about reflecting reality and then immediately imply something like you know me
stop projecting your bubble reality that you write in your head because thats not reality
フォーチュンサモナーズ ～アルチェの精霊石～ is one of the best games for beginners/intermediates to Japanese since it has furigana for all of its written dialogue.
yeah you did when you said "it wont help you understand real people or help you interact with them really at all", in english that translates to "it's not japanese"
stop watching dramas
i dont have to pretend because youre allowed to infer how you want but if youre gonna twist it and project aggressively at me then im gonna stiff arm you till you get tired of windmilling because i deal with kids like you all the time and its very easy
let me illustrate what you did here, replacing your asinine comments about anime and japanese with something similar
"hello everyone this is my first post in this thread and I'd like you all to know that reading japanese light novels won't make you learn how to read written japanese"
this would only be true for a language learner if they weren't made in written japanese, so obviously you would be saying that japanese light novels aren't made in written japanese
substitute light novels for anime and written japanese for spoken anime and you will see the problem
i mean just because you have what you want to believe there doesnt mean its reality also maybe you should take a second to breathe and proofread when youre writing up your posts in a fury like that
yeah i dont get why that guy wanted to fight so bad about it like he wrote a whole bunch of crap that didnt amount to anything
it was and will probably remain a large exercise in futility for him and as a very meager amount of entertainment for me
dude when you come into the thread and argue with someone by saying something that's complete bullshit you can't expect not to get an argument as a result
there's nothing nonfictional about anime being fake japanese that doesn't prepare you for conversations or whatever, that's a personal fantasy
any good resources/tools for writing Japanese? the only kanji that aren't two strokes i can write by memory are 歳 and 私, and it pisses me off.
there was something called a "boogie board" in the guide a few years ago, but i haven't really heard anything about it since. anyone used one before?
i never said its fake japanese get over it son i just said it wont help you understand people and this is because a lot of the sounds are gonna be foreign to you compared to what youre used to and do you know why that is? its very easy to understand and the the guy that originally replied to me before you jumped on me with your buttrage pretty much understood it but then i reiterated my intention to bait this exact scenario
hello everyone this is my first post in the thread and I would like to disagree with someone even though I'm wrong and what I'm saying is destructive, please don't disagree with me
>i never said its fake japanese
you said it right here
>it wont help you understand real people or help you interact with them really at all
this thing you said is only true if it's fake japanese, therefore you said the thing that it's fake japanese
just because you don't literally say a sequence of words doesn't mean you don't say the thing those words represent
Learn radicals and a few dozen kanji. After that you'll be able to write pretty much any kanji you see with the correct stroke order just from intuition (there are handful of weird ones like 必, but those are rare exceptions).
Obviously though, to learn to write a specific kanji from memory requires specific practice of writing that kanji from memory, and just knowing how to write individual kanji when prompted by an English keyword as with KKLC, RTK, etc. does not equate to being able to write words (which requires you to remember the readings for the characters you're writing so you know which order they appear in or where the kanji ends and the okurigana begins).
and then you got the rest of the way from interacting more with real people whether single or dual communication avenues is probably it? if you want to fight just prove your mettle now and save me a 20 reply chain like i have with this guy
hello congratulations on your first post here is your introductory djt starter pack a copy of the tyler kims best hits audio cd and a flash card starter deck a $19.99 value yours free
very funny, now please explain how your statement reflects reality, then explain how, reflecting reality, it doesn't mean that anime is fake japanese
after all, you said that it doesn't *help* you understand real people or *help* you interact with them really *at all*
that's a very strong statement with very little room for misinterpretation, it places anime in exactly one place: not helping you acquire japanese in any capacity, because if it helped you acquire japanese even a little, it would help you understand real people or help you interact with them, at least a little
if it doesn't help you acquire japanese in any capacity, it's not japanese, so any such japanese anime can only be "fake japanese"
you should be able to solve this
No, I don't interact with people. I just watch a youtube video or talk show here and there which makes it about 1% of my listening input. And when I do that, I have the same comprehension ability as when I am watching anime.
i dont know why youre trying to force all or nothing here because you forgot when i said words like really and generally and thats because something identifiable might make it through to you but otherwise its the case of this guy which is where this all began >>17630464
Something happened to kitsunekko and I can't find a way to download any subtitles from there. I want to watch Non Non Biyori with Japanese subtitles because I mostly understand what the girls are saying but not always, and referring to the English translation by HorribleSubs is just distracting as fuck in addition to not being very helpful if it happens to be a sentence where the amount of words I fail to pick up is multiple (possibly due to not knowing them); also, it seems poorly written. Please help.
actually no you're right i shouldn't be so stubborn about the fact that you used "at all" and "help" as exremifiers because what you were intending to say was obvious the entire time
it's true that anime isn't 100% natural but that's true of everything that isn't just normal daily interactions
i dont follow you. you can say something 'wont really help but you can still do it' and that just means maybe there will be some effect but youre not getting at the real issue by doing it in the eyes of the one who said that
should i just link you the davido video its a pretty reasonable illustration of the point
thanks you too
There's a site called Animelon I found through some anon in one of these threads before. It has a whole integrated thing where you can watch Anime with the ability to look stuff up without leaving the video, and you can enable Japanese and/or English subtitles, or watch without any if you want. It has Non Non Biyori, as well as a good variety of other stuff.
-Make sure you're not blocking Japanesepod101
-Make sure you have the "Save audio when one of the real time import keys" option in the Anki tab of Rikai's settings is toggled
-Make sure the save path for the audio is the correct folder. Anki's storage was moved to be in "AppData/Roaming/Anki" by default in one of the recent updates.
Come on, no one can help with this at all? It can't be THAT hard.
Hey I just read that one too.
People should stop telling beginners to practice with manga. You're better off reading articles where you can access rikaisama. If you see words you don't know in manga it takes forever to look up the meaning. If it has kanji you don't know it's even worse, you have to draw it into google translate. It's extremely tedious and inefficient.
if you go through hard times with a kanji and get stuck looking at it for 5 or maybe 10 minutes dont you think youre more likely to remember it in the future now that youve spent some quality time with it and have even drawn it
kids these days and their instant gratification
just use a machine translator and accept your fate as another half asser who never sees anything through truly in life
I'm trying to learn japanese, not kanji. You learn a language by getting lots of comprehensible input, not slowly translating manga panels. Also, I'm surprised you're still here after having that mental breakdown last thread.
well good luck with that but you should probably also stop reading manga because thats also slowing you down then i think when theres way faster avenues to get that nice input you want and need
also what mental breakdown
>1) The なんてのも in the first clause, I'm not sure how to parse that. My best guess is that the の is acting like a noun like "one" or "thing", so the first part of the sentence would be something like "Although the magazine also advertised things like 'southern country tour guides', ..."
>2) The そこはサタン様のこと、. I know what it means on its own, I'm just know sure what it adds to the sentence, or why it can be a comma-delimited clause by itself. I would think that there should at least be some particle after the こと.
It's like "when it comes to that Satan-sama". It's drawing attention to the distinction between his behaviour/actions and what would normally be expected.
>3) Which usage of と is being used in ...小麦色になるのが一番らくちんだと、含み笑いで... I don't think it can be "if", since the preceding clause is present tense and the following clause is past tense.
You're constraining yourself by trying to think about it in English. That pattern is natural in Japanese but there's no way of translating it into English without it sounding weird. Also, the preceding clause is future, not present.
だと = if it's the case (present)/if it would be the case (future)
I don't claim to be good at Japanese, but since everyone else was ignoring you I decided to try helping you. If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me and answer your questions properly. In the future though, I don't think you should waste so much time thinking about a single sentence.
I'm about to finish hanahira.
People here always say you should read something that you really want to read, instead easy stuff.
I think I'll read monobeno next then.
Whats the difference between the 2 versions?
>lost motivation to do anki core because djt told me that it's a meme
>can't bring myself to read either
you can read just read along with the narrator and let this be the reboot of your nihongo journey starting off right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU12Qrz8H1I
i guarantee by the end of this youll at least know what you just read and even pick up some new stuff!
>Also, you should only use J-J dictionaries.
Nah, if you can't properly interpret the explanations there's not much point. You should use them whenever you can, but that you should "only" use them isn't practical advice.
Thanks man, I appreciate it.
>In the future though, I don't think you should waste so much time thinking about a single sentence.
I've been reading other things since I posted that, of course. But there have been too many times where I see a sentence I don't understand, can't figure it out, and just go "well I guess I'll read something else". I'm afraid I won't progress if I just stick to what I'm comfortable with, so at some point I have to drill down and make sure I really understand things.
I'm still having a little trouble wrapping my head around how a past tense verb can come after だと. Would it be alright to translate the だと in my sentence as "given that"? Is this like how I sometimes see the -たら form to mean "after" rather than "if"?
Guys I am sorry to bother you, but an image board I visit time to time because of materials they make seem to have gone full xenophobia mode, and the content they host is now being hidden with some password, I don't actually know japanese but it was fairly easy to obtain before, but now.....
THIS IMAGE, anyone can make sense of it? I think is a riddle of some sort.
Does the updated DoJG deck still have the scan images for explanations, or have those been removed? I lost mine but I want as few typos as possible and don't mind having scan images that make the deck filesize larger.
Because arbitrarily limiting your available resources is counterproductive and solely relying on one which you don't fully grasp is likely to do more harm than good. Relying too much on English is not advisable in the long run, but making no use of it at all is a huge waste as well. There's no sense in doing everything the hard way just for the sake of it, especially when you already have the knowledge of an entire language which you can make use of.
Both J-E and J-J dictionaries are readily available and perusable at will, so it goes without saying that one should make use of both and combine their information to get the most accurate and easily grasped picture, at least up until they can properly rely on the latter.
Shit that's true
One day it won't 通過 only anymore
Can't argue with that. My post was intended as a call to study J-J dictionaries more, said in a provocative way that made it easy to attack and take down logically, so it being djt, the opportunity was immediately taken. Since we both agree that J-E, though essential at first, will hold you back without J-J, the common ground is reached.
The only reason NK would hit Japan is if someone struck them first. The whole reason the Kim dynasty has been so desperate for ICBMs and nukes is as insurance to avoid going the way of Saddam Hussein. Striking a US ally would ensure that they went the way of Saddam Hussein, so it would make no sense whatsoever for them to do it unless they were already under imminent threat of attack and thus had nothing to lose.
NK doesn't want a NATO invasion and NATO doesn't want ICBMs and nuclear warheads flying their way, so neither side will do anything. It's all just posturing.
This is the boring answer for people who want to see a good war on TV, but it's true. Kim has said as much, he just wants his little regime to be left alone. The only way we'll see a real war is if someone makes a mistake, like if one of NK's missiles crashes into Japan by accident.
It's very easy to abuse Rikaisama and Yomichan when doing the VN+texthooker method. It can be tempting, but try to avoid just automatically hovering over every word single. Try to read a word first, then hover over it if you really don't know what it is or if you want to check that you got it right.
Also, when you do have to hover over a word, don't just look straight to the kana in the Rikaisama/Yomichan pop-up and move on. Take note of which kanji the word is written with.
Not either of them, but "translating in your head" should only really be a thing at the beginning stage when that's all you can do and you don't understand the grammar at an intuitive level yet. The goal is to get to the point where you understand the Japanese as Japanese rather than as Japanese translated into English, and the translating in the beginning stages are more just training wheels while you get used to the language. That kinda gets into the "don't think, feeel" shit that people meme, but there's truth to it.
if you learn baby shit you can have at least an infantile way to break things down in japanese as opposed to translating to english which is really not a good idea a fairly high amount of the time because people tend to try and translate nearly every word and screw up the japanese way to verbalize concepts in the process
So I started learning in preparation for a temporary emigration to Japan. I made a post requesting penpals in Japan and I got swamped with about 15 to 20 people wanting to talk to me and they're all women except one.
Now, I'm not dumb enough to think this is a romantic thing (although I am a good looking guy), but I was hoping to talk to some bros. Does anyone know where to meet Japanese guys?
If I want to copy text from an html file that has furigana, but want to get rid of the furigana, is there a solution to this besides manually going through the copied text and deleting all the furigana?
My Epwing dictionary randomly stopped working and I have no idea why. I swear I had it working before, does anyone know how to fix this?
"Please add an EPWING dictionary in the EPWING tab of the options dialogue."
Yep, those sure are three ways to say someone is about to die or has begun dying. "He is starting to die" sounds a bit unnatural but can work depending on the context.
What are you trying to say anon
Bzrt, you're fucking wrong despite being a smug cock-sucker that likes to lecture people.
As you can see, this very page gives the proper explanation for the grammar (when it comes to; concerning (an area of expertise)), but has these three example sentences nonetheless. You are wrong. Fucking wrong. Eat shit, loser. There's no way out of this and no worming your way out of it through arguing. You're just objectively wrong. Suck on a goddamn dick and choke on it. Never lecture people on DJT again, you piece of goddamn garbage.
mfw I just thought it was funny how all the example sentences coincidentally talked about death in different ways
>You are wrong. Fucking wrong. Eat shit, loser. There's no way out of this and no worming your way out of it through arguing. You're just objectively wrong. Suck on a goddamn dick and choke on it. Never lecture people on DJT again, you piece of goddamn garbage.
r u ok
It's a rare opportunity that a "smug DJT fuck" as they're called slips up and says something thoroughly wrong to the extent that they can't worm their way out of it with whiny argumentation. I wanted to use it this opportunity to the fullest to really beat him down. Maybe he won't ever post here again out of shame, if we're lucky.
勉強 pro-tip: Fap in Japanese.
Does anyone else find Yomichan to be really slow and unresponsive at times?
Sometimes it works almost as well as Rikaisama, but equally often it seems to have delays of several seconds when hovering over a word.
I'm on Firefox already, but since Rikaisama won't work for much longer, I decided to switch to Yomichan in advance so that I can get used to using it.
I had a few gripes with it at the beginning, but I've pretty much got used to all the ways it's different from Rikaisama now. The only thing that still bothers me is the unresponsiveness it often seems have.
Forgetting things is natural.
On a side-note, question for everyone.
I'm dimly aware that many kanji are split into two halves, one for sound and one for meaning (roughly). I've currently been steadfastly ignoring this and just remembering the readings/meanings as they come.
Is it at all useful or worth it to remember the thing about halves of kanji?
>Is it at all useful or worth it to remember the thing about halves of kanji?
There's nothing to really "remember" about "halves." When you see a kanji you take the whole character into account, right? The only thing to "remember" is this:
The smaller half gives you a rough ballpark idea of the kanji's concept while the other half tries to specify the meaning and/or reading. This is not always true though.
位 for example has person on the left for the ballpark idea of what it's about: people. Then on the left you have "stand/rise," which can be interpreted as "standing." While this is a rare case of a kanji making sense with very little extra thought put in, the idea of a "person's standing" equating to its meaning (it means "rank") it's not the norm.
液 has the water on the left but the 夜 on the right doesn't have anything to do with its reading and doesn't add much meaning to make it mean "liquid."
And lastly you have ones like 観 which I personally don't find any meaning in neither the radical nor the phonetic compound. The best I have is that 見 can be read けん so if you change it a little to かん then you have the reading for 観.
There's not much to really "think" about once you know kanji just give you a clue into the concept and then either specifies or gives you a phonetic hint. Nothing you need to actively keep in mind.
Sometimes you can guess a kanji's reading based on its radicals, but to be sure about it you have to have the readings memorized. It's more of a funny thing that works sometimes than it is a technique you should rely on.
Ah, well - kind of what I expected, unfortunately. I'm not the type to look for magic keys that will let me instantly understand a kanji without studying it, so this isn't a big deal, but at least it's one more little trick for the toolbelt. Thanks weebs.
>study another language in classroom setting
>there's no compelling content
>we spend the class discussing easy grammar that could be easily internalized by READ MORE
>then we need to produce sentences
Thank god I have Japanese and you guys.
radicals are useful for learning kanji. sometimes they intuitively suggest meaning and pronunciation, sometimes just meaning, more often they're just vague clues. however, I find that being familiar with the basic set of radicals helps you process and remember the characters.
Is it just me or are there excessively many pointless words in Japanese for things that in other languages would've just been expressed with a few other words? Things like 氷塊, which is just a "lump of ice", but instead they made an entirely new word for it.
あの声優が読むあの名作 - Highlights from various classic novels read aloud by anime seiyuu. mp3
Is there a way to select what word I want to mine when I hover over a string of kanji or hiragana with Rikaisama?
As we all know, there are a lot of different words in japanese that are pronounced the same or written the same, and Rikaisama lists those pretty exhaustively.
Is there a way to select one instead of always mining the one at the top?
I have heard that there was a version of the plugin that let you select what you wanted but it got abandoned or lost, IIRC.
Can anyone help me out?
can someone help me by typing out the text for my picture?
im trying to solve a capture to register for something but don't know japanese well enough
I envy people who have learnt Japanese. I can't even learn English. I have been at it for twenty years and I still come across a cromulent word I didn't know before every other day. This week it was "elation" and "kerfuffle".
I was about to say your english was fine but "elation" is a very common word. "kerfuffle" is not that common anymore but any native speaker with a basic education would recognize it.
Even assuming "fluency" meant "knowing every single word in the language" then English would probably be one of the most difficult languages to learn because of the massive total amount of words it has in its vocabulary.
I think "kerfuffle" has a bit of an onomatopoeic aspect to it, so with a little context you can easily figure out what it means. The same goes for a lot of Japanese onomatopoeia, even metaphorical or indirect ones.
>Skip the vocabulary lists; a list of words out of context (outside of a sentence) is nearly useless to you. Go straight for the dialogues and example sentences. Copy those into your SRS. If you work efficiently, you can mine a typical textbook in its entirety, over like 3 – 4 hours of actual working time, perhaps more, perhaps less.
Has anyone actually done this? Did you have any success with it or was it just a waste of time?
I'm past the point where there would be any point in me doing this with Genki or Tae Kim's guide, but I was thinking of doing if for the HJGP. It would be a gargantuan undertaking to mine however many thousand example sentences are probably in that book though so if it's pointless then it would amount to a massive waste of time.
Why do the Japanese need Kanji when they can communicate verbally just fine?
>It would be a gargantuan undertaking to mine however many thousand example sentences are probably in that book though so if it's pointless then it would amount to a massive waste of time.
If you're using modern OCR the accuracy will be good enough that you just have to check it for mistakes on each sentence. If you're doing this one "card" at a time, it won't be too much work on a day to day basis, but it'll still take a while since there's so many example sentences in HJGP.
1) Download Tesseract 4 and extract it somewhere under your user directory. (your documents, desktop, etc)
"zip file with cppan generated .dll and .exe files"
2) Install Imagemagick. Use the installer.
3) Install ShareX.
4) What we're going to do is add extra hotkeys to ShareX that run a program that invokes imagemagick on a screenshot, sends it to tesseract, and copies tesseract's output to the clipboard. ShareX can't run shell scripts, so you'll have to use a separate program to invoke those programs. Here's mine:
My hotkey in ShareX is configured something like picture related. I have separate hotkeys for vertical and horizontal text. If you're OCRing HJGP in particular you're going to want two horizontal hotkeys, one that prioritizes English only and one that prioritizes Japanese over English, by giving ocr.exe different scripts.
The lack of spaces makes it awkward to read.
With speech, you get audible cues as to which words are being used and where words end and begin in the form of intonation and so on. Even homophones are distinguished in speech via different pitch accents (there's a dorama called Trick where this becomes an important plot point in one of the episodes). Kanji performs these functions in writing.
You can much easier understand from context in spoken form when there's tone of voice and the pitch accent, neither of which exists in text.
>Japanese television drama (テレビドラマ terebi dorama, television drama), also called dorama (ドラマ), are television programs that are a staple of Japanese television and are broadcast daily.
If you're on a unix-like OS you can bypass most of the complexity there, including the .exe in the safe.moe link. Look up how to make a global hotkey that takes a screenshot on your OS. You'll still want config.txt though (tesseract 4 will insert spaces, invent characters, and drop lines without it), and ocr.txt as a basis for your script.
Anime is a shortening of "animation", and is pronounced as such. You don't say アニメ when you read "anime", you say ænime or ɛʌnime.
"Dorama" is insane. It's not an English word. You don't say "bideo geemu" or "bijuaru noberu". Why would you say "dorama"? If you wanted to use the Japanese word with some kind of sincerity you would have written ドラマ. "Dorama" isn't English, and there's nothing more especially Japanese about dramas than there is about anything else.
You're not loaning a word from Japanese into English, you're just spelling an English word the way it's pronounced in Japanese, with English text, not Japanese text. It's toxic exoticism. It's systematically responsible for Japanese live action television not being taken seriously among critics abroad.
>Anime is a shortening of "animation", and is pronounced as such. You don't say アニメ when you read "anime", you say ænime or ɛʌnime.
What about "manga" and "comics" then?
>If you wanted to use the Japanese word with some kind of sincerity you would have written ドラマ.
Romaji is a valid writing system for Japanese, even if it's seldom actually used. I can't be fucked with switching my keyboard for the sake of typing one word. Stop being a sperg.
>You're not loaning a word from Japanese into English, you're just spelling an English word the way it's pronounced in Japanese
"dorama" does not translate to "drama", so no I'm not.
>It's toxic exoticism. It's systematically responsible for Japanese live action television not being taken seriously among critics abroad.
You can't be serious...
theres no reason to get rid of kanji and using kana only would not only lead to confusion in a lot of things but your eyes then have to cover way more real estate to take in the same amount of information
It's too late for that. Over a thousand years of Japanese literature and written documents would become unreadable by the next generation of Japanese were kanji to be eliminated now.
>What about "manga" and "comics" then?
"Manga" is a loan word. It's pronounced on the basis of English pronunciation, and has a meaning different than what マンガ means in Japanese. Manga also doesn't literally mean the same thing as "comic". Manga is just another one of the bajillion words English has for art panel stories, some of which, like comic, are loans from other languages the same way as "manga" is.
>Romaji is a valid writing system for Japanese
Do you see people writing novels in Romaji?
>"dorama" does not translate to "drama"
Yes, it does, actually. 1:1. "Drama" translates exactly to ドラマ. ドラマ translates exactly to "drama". By your own admission that you wrote a Japanese word in "romaji", "dorama", i.e. ドラマ, is the same thing as "drama".
>You can't be serious...
Go look for reviews of dubbed Japanese dramas on western television criticism outlets.
no, not good.
besides, there are many other reasons to retain kanji, such as differentiating between words that sound the same, conserving space, overall swag, etc.
like it or not, stuff gets established in society and it's generally not easy to make drastic changes. if it were, then we could all switch to speaking Esperanto as a more logical language, but we don't.
They already do that in old games for example, and such text is far more annoying to read than text with kanji.
I know having to deal with them is rough at first, but you'll come to appreciate their existence eventually.
>"Manga" is a loan word.
>Yes, it does
>Do you see people writing novels in Romaji?
Do you see me writing a novel?
>Go look for reviews of dubbed Japanese dramas on western television criticism outlets.
So me writing dorama in romaji instead of katakana is single-handedly responsible for Western critics not being interested in Japanese TV shows, the same way that they aren't interested in Chinese, Indian, Russian, Egyptian and Brazillian TV shows?
When the truth is convenient for me and not you, that means you're doing something wrong.
I know more about English than you even realize is possible to know.
>Do you see me writing a novel?
This isn't about you. This is about the creators of Japanese media.
>So me writing dorama in romaji instead of katakana is single-handedly responsible for Western critics not being interested in Japanese TV shows,
You forgot the part where you inserted a random Japanese word into an English post for the purpose of emphasizing the fact that it's an exotic thing, valued for being exotic. The disdainful cultural alienation that Japanese media is analyzed from (lol Japan is making such perverted games! etc.) is nothing but bad for Japanese creators that try to bring their works west, because the media can't be marketed on its own merits. "Dorama" perpetuates one small part of this.
>the same way that they aren't interested in Chinese, Indian, Russian, Egyptian and Brazillian TV shows?
The ones that actually get brought over have lasting success inversely proportional to how exotic they were perceived. Look at the western version of Macross, which was seen as so unexotic at the time that the localization production company forgot they didn't own the rights to it.
What's the point of the current complicated English spelling when a phonetic one can be devised? Oh, you don't want that? The current system works just fine for all but the retards? Figures.
This language is completely sublime. Hearing it spoken is so comfy and it looks beautiful written. I'm not sure why, but I just started to feel so this week after studying for the last four months. Does anyone else feel the same?
Nah, it's overly complicated, relies too heavily on Chinese characters for specific uses, and tries too hard to compensate for non native words through imitation rather than direct consumption.
Nah, sorry. It's always felt very utilitarian to me, and yet its inherent vagueness and context-dependence works against that purpose, creating an odd tension. I think English is far more beautiful.
Joke's on you, English used to be phonetic.
>Oh, you don't want that?
Says who exactly? I'd be down for that. A shitton of languages could use some modernization, English included.
>The current system works just fine for all but the retards?
I fail to see how making a language considerably harder to learn for the sake of tradition and customs benefits anyone in any way, especially in the era of globalization. Of course I like Japanese in its current state as well as its history, but from a technical standpoint Japanese is dumb as shit
>it's overly complicated
Now who would ever say that.
>I fail to see how making a language considerably harder to learn
False premise. The only thing kanji makes harder is avoiding bad learning material like RTK. There's nothing harder about learning words written in kanji than learning words written in phonetic script. In fact, once you get outside of the most common 500 or so 大和言葉, kanji make words much much easier to learn due to extensive homophony, especially with しょう, せい, かん, etc sounds.
GOOD LUCK REMEMBERING THE CORRECT WORDS WITH THE PROPER SOCIAL CONTEXT MOTHERFUCKER HA HA HA HAAAA!!!
It makes the language harder to learn but a hundred times easier to actually use and read you dummy. As has been said kana-only text with spaces already exists, and it fucking sucks.
Hot take: it makes the language easier to learn because you learn languages by reading and it makes reading so much easier.
the problem is thinking of it as a flowchart where you have to pick something and make decisions
people do whats in that chart unconsciously every second of every day with the english language
I'll take your hot shit take and throw it right back in your face and remind you that language written in books tends to be written in a way to be easily conveyed through literature and doesn't necessarily convey how it is used in actual conversation. Take fucking keigo for example >>17637143 >>17637130 and don't say that you'll never need to learn it because it only comes up in certain situations because it basically shuts you out from those specific situations if you didn't learn it. You will only actually get better at a language by repetition and use and not just reading it from a book.
Well, it makes the initial hurdle steeper is what I mean. Once you're past that it makes it easier for certain.
It makes text more difficult and annoying to read which is why nobody does it even though they 100% could if they wanted to. It's not really a matter of nativity, it's just a choice between better readability and worse readability.
The commenter is saddened by the notes posted at Ouji Station (Tokyo Metro) and attached to the tweet.
The two handwritten notes are by girls, addressed to their mom:
>How are you, mom? Please call!
The printed notice is by the station master, and it reads:
>For the sake of the station building, notices cannot be pasted without a permit. Since many people use the station, we can't just accept one customer's request. However, feeling for these girls, we have hesitated to remove the notes. We will be removing them soon. May they get in touch.
Reading it from a book is exactly that repetition. It's true that you need multiple sources of input, but input is the only thing that actually causes acquisition to take place, and reading is the easiest/most convenient one. There are very few people in the modern age who have become fluent in a foreign language without forced life-changing immersion (e.g. moving to sub-asian country X and having to live daily life there, with almost no speakers of your native language there) or extensive reading.
English can never be phonetic again, unless we force every single dialect in the anglosphere to use their own unique spellings. You would probably have to switch to that funny alphabet they use in pronunciation guides as well, in order to capture all the sounds that are merged or unrepresented in English spelling.
Except that English doesn't have a separate way of speaking to indicate politeness past using "sir or madam" and remembering to include please, thank you, or I'm sorry. It would be the equivalent of using English from the past century in present day conversation "Sire wil'st thou prefer an addition portion of frittered potatoe to accompany thine hammedburger?"
i know the thing about ideograms conveying an idea "faster" than words but if you mix letters in an english word you still can read it conclusion words works as ideograms themselves, and you can read most of them at a younger age and can practice with them longer, even technical difficult word can be apprehended quite easily
but it does youre just not even aware of it thats how unconscious it really is
a waitress doesnt ask you something like "what do you want" they ask you something like "what would you like to order"
My humble appreciation for your post extends no further than the fury behind the tips of my fingers. It does not suit the worldly situation to perpetuate such vile lore that the English language has no permanent formal registers; rather, it begets the difference between formality conventions that are codified, and those that have been lain by the wayside.
>The King's English is less like a dictionary than Modern English Usage; it consists of longer articles on more general topics such as vocabulary, syntax and punctuation, and draws heavily on examples from many sources throughout. One of its sections is a systematic description of the appropriate uses of shall and will.
Stop procastrinating with bullshit and start studying, the language isn't gonna change anywhere no matter how much you whine about it.
You either gotta deal with how it is in its current state or quit.
Even English has registers, it's just that the borders are murkier and the difference is more along vocabulary and pronunciation-oriented, and less about grammar. You won't talk to the customer out front the same way you would talk to your coworker or to your boss in the back office.
For grammar-oriented differences outside Japanese, consider the way a lot of European languages use second person plural to refer to individuals when they're distant or higher in status.
you can also just procrastinate and whine for a while and then begrudgingly do your flashcards :^) thats the great thing about life its all one big grey area where you dont have to be limited to binary choices unless you choose to be
Yes there are ways to indicate politeness and formality with English but it doesn't take an entirely different vocabulary to do so, let alone two or more of them depending on the situation.
>My humble appreciation for your poſt extendſ no further than the fury behind the tipſ of my fingerſ. It doeſ not ſuit the worldly ſituation to perpetuate ſuch vile lore that the Engliſh language haſ no permanent formal regiſterſ; rather, it begetſ the difference between formality conventionſ that are codified, and those that have been lain by the wayſide.
Fixed for accuracy.
The courtroom is probably the last place you'll find anywhere near that level of speaking, now imagine if you had a letter from Amazon on the same level because your package arrived late.
MR. KIMBERLY: The short answer, Your Honor,
is no. There are distinctions to be made in -- in the
context of the public-trial right, for example. Those
distinctions play out as -- at the threshold question
whether the public-trial right, in fact, has been
An example of a company user email:
>We’ve registered changes to your Unity news settings.
>Should you want to change your preferences at any time, or if your settings have been altered in error, just visit our E-mail Preference Page.
>Should you want to ...
The conditional subjunctive is basically one of the English "keigo" things.
Like I said, the last place where you will find that kind of language because there are very real consequences for stating something incorrectly, however imagine using the same kind of language on a daily basis for something as mundane as a late package.
im confused on what this person is trying to say. girl tries to give him a handkerchief and he says
particularly the いっちょまえに
is it "you try to fit in with society by carrying a handkerchief because you're poor... my number one rule is not to accept charity from other people. especially from poor people"
I think you didn't notice the formal register there.
>excessive use of the passive for the sake of politeness
>"whether" instead of "if", "about", or "of"
>inserting adverbial conjunctions mid-sentence (, in fact,)
It still uses words and phrases that would be considered part of everyday conversation to convey their meaning though, the same context of how Japanese polite language would be on the same level as King's Court English.
I am following the Anki guide and I'm currently doing the default 20 new words a day. However, I feel like the 20 new words a day is a bit too fast-paced, and the new vocabulary doesn't sit too well... Should I dedicate a day a week only for reviewing / revision?
Also, I only use "Again" and "Good" without pressing "Easy", even on painfully easy words. Does this make any real difference?
This is one thing holding me back. I'm utter shit at listening, not only Japanese, but even English
Whenever I'm in a casual conversation, I have to act like deaf and ask again, because my listening skills are so shit I cannot turn them into sentences in my mind fast enough.
On the other hand, reading written languages feels easier. Getting a gist of what is written in Japanese is much easier than listening.
I think you underestimate how normal keigo is. Keigo phrases aren't magic, they're basically glorified euphemisms. In English you you replace short words with longer ones and use dead grammar like the conditional subjunctive. In Japanese you replace short words with longer ones and use dead grammar like the conditional 仮定形.
Again it is necessary because the courtroom deals in facts alone and there is a need to use bleeding edge context in every single word or phrase because there can't be a single hint of doubt or suspicion in the words that are spoken and you won't find the same kind of need outside of some science journals. The difference is that keigo is used in almost all facets of conversation between a difference in authority or respect in Japanese culture, and being that it is Japanese culture there are a shitton of them.
>dead grammar like the conditional 仮定形
I'm not part of this conversation at all and couldn't care any less about it than I already do, but just out of curiosity I'd like to know what you meant by this.
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that using the ～ば conditional for those kinds of conditions is "dead", not ～ば itself for the conditions it currently logically fits well.
No idea but you might be able to
<!-- markup that makes the hr disappear>
Grammar people treat たら like its own thing these days rather than the 仮定形 of something. It's like calling "went" a form of "wend" instead of "go". Like, it's technically right in terms of etymology, but that's not how people think about it.
Who? What if I consider myself a grammar person? Why do you get to speak for how people think about things and I don't?
You can't just make a claim like "that's not how people think about it" and expect people to accept it without any kind of proof.
I just googled たらとは and right at the top of the page it says 「た」の仮定形。た助動。
I understand that you're tying to save face and have no desire to argue with you over something so trivial, but come on. Why is it so important to you to always have to have the last say and be right about everything? At least back up claims with proofs.
I, too, know how to use online dictionaries. A dictionary will also tell you that "went" comes from "went" if it goes any further than "past tense of go".
>Originally the past tense of wend.
>old pt. of wend, used to replace missing form of go1
>You can't just make a claim like "that's not how people think about it" and expect people to accept it without any kind of proof.
たら doesn't actually come from the 已然形, it comes from the 未然形. た was special in that the modern ～ば usage standardized on the 未然形 rather than the 已然形. Before standardizing on mostly the 已然形, both could be used, depending on the situation. This is why it ends in an a instead of an e.
In this conversation, I was using 仮定形 as the modernized name for the 已然形, not as "the form used in hypothetical statements".
I know that for a at least a short period of time, 仮定形 wasn't just a modern name for the 已然形. If I'm wrong here, this is where my mistake is, not in making shit up. I studied classical Japanese much more than I studied modern Japanese, so there's a good chance that I misunderstood how the modern terminology works.
Natives can be wrong but when enough of them think something's right it basically automatically is.
There's no such thing as language actually anyway so it's all sociopolotical semanticism in the throughbouts, amiwrite.
How long did it take you to read VNs without texthooker?
I have been playing with texthooker for a few months and while it feels like I'm not progressing while playing I have really progressed when I look at the beginning.
It's a bit frustrating but I guess I have to keep playing. I just with to be able to read without crutches. So what timeframe should I aim for?
Nobody's experience on this topic will be more valid than the Moog's:
>Do you remember how many games in you stopped text hooking?
>Baldr Force was the first game I played without a text hook, I think it was my tenth?
>So what timeframe should I aim for? 2 years?
It's about how much Japanese you consume, not how much real time passes.
Hello! I recently found this really nice rap/pop-song-with-really-fast-lyrics and I'd like to be able to sing along to it. The main thing I'd need for now is the chorus (it goes from 0:59 to 1:20 in the video down below), so if you have the spare time, could any of you please write the Romaji and maybe even the translation for me? If so, thank you very much!
Here's the link: https://youtu.be/mEmznINVGV8
I see. So i should aim for around tenth game.
Thank you for quoting that post anon.
I have just finished 1 and another one so I'm just at the beginning, but I'll give my best!
Just keep at it and take it a day at a time instead of thinking years ahead because too many factors play into that. Occasionally do as you have seemingly done and look back at how much you've improved, and draw your motivation from that direction instead.
It's a gradual process, but also one that slowly continues accelerating for as long as you keep at it.
>when enough of them think something's right it basically automatically is
Is it how it works in Burgerland? Here it's only right if the linguistic elites agree that it's right (i.e. a lot of shit that 90+% people say is still considered wrong).
>A dictionary will also tell you that "went" comes from "went" if it goes any further than "past tense of go".
And what does that prove? Your original analogy doesn't even work, in my opinion. If you had said, "たら is the 仮定形 of た," and then I said, "No, it's actually the 未然形 of たり," then it would be a valid comparison, because we would both technically be correct but I would only be correct in the context of the classical language. In the modern language, たら is the 仮定形 of た. In the modern language, went is the past-tense of go.
>In this conversation, I was using 仮定形 as the modernized name for the 已然形, not as "the form used in hypothetical statements".
There's only one usage of the word 仮定形 that I'm aware of, and that's in reference to conjugation form number 5 out of 6 in modern Japanese, which comes between the 連体形 and the 命令形 in traditional ordering.
If you were to try to make the claim that "たら is not the 仮定形 of た," then you would be wrong, and that's all I'm pointing out. "Conditionals based on the 仮定形" would have to include both ～たら and なら, along with 仮定形＋ば, because たら is the 仮定形 of ～た and なら is the 仮定形 of だ. The fact that ～たらば and ならば are still valid constructions proves this, because the conjunctive particle ば attaches to the 仮定形 of inflected words and never the 未然形 in modern Japanese.
We can talk about the difference between 未然形＋ば and 已然形＋ば in classical Japanese if you want, but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about before and I think you only brought it up to try to scare me away from replying.
It's how English linguists treat it. We don't have faux-linguists running an academy dedicated to preventing English from adapting to modern needs, so we're not stuck with things that are ridiculous today like "I am become death" (grammatically correct at the time) and "for whom the bell tolls" (which, still correct, sounds much less natural than the "incorrect" alternative, "for who the bell tolls")
but the elites of society regardless of country affiliation decide whats fact and whats fake and if theres resistance they just spend enough money to buy the ability to dictate the truth to the unwashed masses
You obviously understand what I was trying to say and what the thing I actually said meant, so just say it without acting like I'm supposed to know everything that you know and take it for granted. Am I wrong about 仮定形 being a modernized name for the 已然形? This is obviously not an unsubstantiated belief, but it's actually technically wrong, say so. Get off your high horse.
AAVE was actually the high class dialect of southern US plantation owners before they decided to stop saying things like "ain't" and making their negatives agree to distance themselves from their ex-slaves after slavery reformation started.
>In the modern language, たら is the 仮定形 of た. In the modern language, went is the past-tense of go.
If you're talking about generative linguistics instead of schoolhouse grammar, たら isn't a form of anything in the modern language. It has its own semantics and function, completely unrelated to how the 仮定形 works with normal verbs. However, true generative linguistics doesn't care that much about categories, so whether it's a 仮定形 or not would basically be information about how people "think" grammar works to a generative linguist, rather than how it really does.
It's only correct to call たら a 仮定形 in the capacity that it's 仮定的, not as a stem to which other conjugations are applied. In a way, it's strange that grammar teachers insist on calling it a 仮定形 in the context of regular conjugations, because 仮定形 is "supposed to" replace 已然形 universally, as the name 已然形 doesn't intuitively apply to how the "e" forms work anymore.
In たらば, it should be considered 未然形, not 已然形, and retains the nuance caused by choosing the 未然形 over the 已然形. The construction たらば is the only real excuse to call it the 仮定形, but classifying it the same way as the 仮定形 of normal verbs is intellectually dishonest. I don't think anybody can disagree with the notion that it's intellectually dishonest, even if they continue to call たら a 仮定形 for the sake of being logically reasonable to natives that aren't scholars.
Assuming that たら being a 仮定形 is 100% intellectually honest given the context of what the 仮定形 is for other verbs, all 未然形 should be 仮定形 as well, since it's still grammatical to say 死なば, even though it's uncanny. A similar issue exists with the 未然形 of normal verbs and the hortative, but I won't get into that.
No reason to start an intellectually dishonest argument with no benefit to anything other than your own ego.
Have you ever tried running tesseract on japanese text? I don't think it's as reliable as you think it is. I tried it on a blu-ray subtitle file a few months ago and it could barely produce a single readable sentence out of hundreds of lines of background-free text.
It's very bad with certain fonts, but it's fairly reasonable with clean text.
Oh yeah, I totally forgot. Tesseract 4 completely removes the "old", non-neural-network based character recognition engine, and you have to use the "best" training data from here to get the best results: https://github.com/tesseract-ocr/tessdata/tree/master/best
This "best" training data apparently has some problems with things other than actual character recognition, which is why the config.txt in the archive I posted earlier is so important, it disables the neural network being used for character position detection or something.
depends what you want, reading prac or listening prac
with kanji subs, you're just cheating on listening prac
Probably a retarded question, but
Am I right in assuming there's some kind of negation implied at the end of the first sentence?
I was thinking something like
because it's the only way I can see it connecting to the following sentence. Basically meaning "I can't talk about my ability" "but if I must say...".
But I might just be missing something much more obvious.
>Am I wrong about 仮定形 being a modernized name for the 已然形?
Yes, in this context. The auxiliary verb た derives from the classical auxiliary verb たり, but they are two separate words in two separate languages:
In classical Japanese, where the term 已然形 can be properly used, たり had a ラ変 conjugation:
終止形： たり (later たる)
This then evolved into the classical version of た, which was intermediate between たり and modern た:
And now in modern Japanese, where the term 仮定形 is used because the function of the form previously known as the 已然形 has completely changed, た has an irregular conjugation:
This modern conjugation that I refer to to show that たら is the 仮定形 of た is not "etymology information" as >>17637591 says but a guide to how the auxiliary verb conjugates in modern spoken Japanese:
in just the same way that this guide to the conjugation of the auxiliary verb だ：
is a guide to the modern spoken conjugation of だ and not to its etymological origin, which would be split between である and なり.
The 仮定形 of the auxiliary verbs た and だ in modern Japanese are unique in that the particle ば is optional:
>classifying it the same way as the 仮定形 of normal verbs is intellectually dishonest
I disagree. And if it's intellectually dishonest then almost all J-J dictionaries are intellectually dishonest.
Let's examine the definition of the word 仮定形:
One of the conjugation forms of spoken language. Conjugation form #5 for inflected words and auxiliary verbs. Shows a resultative hypothetical condition when accompanied by the conjunctive particle ば. For example the 行け of 行けば or the 書け of 書けば.
Modern た is an auxiliary verb used in the spoken language. The form of た that ば attaches to is たら, and XたらばY expresses a "resultative hypothetical condition," i.e., given a hypothetical condition X, Y will subsequently result. So far, the form たら matches this definition.
Named for the way the 已然形 of the literary language came to be used mostly in hypothetical expressions through a change in function. In the literary language, this function is performed by the 未然形.
In the literary language the 未然形 of the classical version of た (see the intermediate conjugation explained above) would be used to perform the function of the 仮定形 of modern た. This remains consistent with everything I've written so far.
>仮定形 is "supposed to" replace 已然形 universally
That's begging the question: Who says it's supposed to?
>Assuming that たら being a 仮定形 is 100% intellectually honest given the context of what the 仮定形 is for other verbs, all 未然形 should be 仮定形 as well
I don't think that's true either.
The meaning of 行けば in modern Japanese corresponds to 行かば in classical Japanese.
The meaning of 行けば in classical Japanese does not have a direct equivalent in modern Japanese. It would be translated to something like 行ったので, 行ったからには or in certain contexts 行くと (and by your own admission ～と has a different meaning than ～ば). If you decide to use 行かば instead of 行けば in the modern day, you are still expressing the same meaning, but you are now using a literary form of the language rather than the spoken form. The term 仮定形 as defined in the dictionary above does not apply to the literary language; in that case its function is performed by the 未然形. 行か is the 未然形.
According to my classical Japanese textbook, the shift where the function of 行かば was transferred to 行けば and the original function of 行けば was lost began in the Muromachi period, specifically.
>If you're talking about generative linguistics instead of schoolhouse grammar
I'm not talking about any kind of linguistics. I'm talking about Japanese. This is the Japanese thread. I do Japanese grammar in Japanese.
But none of this should require any explaining. The only point I was making in the beginning is that たら is the 仮定形 of た and so strictly speaking "conditionals based on the 仮定形" should include the conditional ～たら. The goo.jp link above that lists たら as the 仮定形 of た should be proficient to prove this. Arguing that the ～たら conditional is actually a conditional based on the 未然形 would be the equivalent of saying went is actually the past-tense of wend, because it would have to operate on the assumption that classical grammatical rules supercede modern grammatical rules. You are the one making the vain appeal to etymology to try to prove your point, not me.
The は particle here translates pretty well to the English "as for". Like, "As for the ability which I can call an ability, just to say it forcedly, ..." (not a good translation stylistically, but literal enough).
I'm >>17637312 and >>17637338 .
"or other conditionals based on the 仮定形" doesn't mean conditionals that are literally a 仮定形 form. It means conditionals that use the 仮定形 as their basis. If the conditional is the 仮定形 alone then it's not based on the 仮定形, it's just the 仮定形, dude. I'm giving you the full benefit of the doubt, it's totally legit to misunderstand "based on X" because it's used both ways, but I never thought ～たら wasn't a 仮定形. I just didn't mentally include it in "based on 仮定形" because it's literally a 仮定形. Arithmetic isn't based on arithmetic, it's just arithmetic, instead algebra is based on arithmetic.
You got into a really autistic argument with multiple people about something that doesn't matter at all.
Not only that, but grammar isn't reality, dude. It's an abstraction. You just wrote a two post long argument about labels invented by idiots that didn't know anything about how the brain handles language on an anonymous forum. I'm not saying that because I hate the labels they chose, I'm saying that because basically all "grammar" for every language is like that. I want to tell you to take a linguistics 101 class because you somehow think that linguistics has nothing to do with grammar, but instead, I'm going to tell you something really funny.
You could have done something productive like write a post about how western civilians fuck up Japanese grammatical jargon (which is legitimately a problem, jargon means people can talk about stuff, which makes abstractions like grammar useful), but instead you decided to fight over trivial bullshit.
>The term 仮定形 as defined in the dictionary above does not apply to the literary language; in that case its function is performed by the 未然形. 行か is the 未然形.
Could have made >>17637425 or >>17637559 consist entirely of this line and avoided however much time you spent writing everything since then, as well as not made yourself look like you're a socially retarded argumentative autist.
I see, thanks. I think the reason I didn't pick up on it is that "the ability which I can call an ability" sounds off enough I assumed it had to have some more complex meaning, and fucked myself over in the process.
So give me an example of a conditional "based on" the 仮定形 that isn't 仮定形＋ば or ～たら or ～なら, then. If you can't, then "other conditionals based on the 仮定形" would be an empty category so it's confusing what you could possibly be referring to.
Also, it's my time, not yours. How I decide to use it is my own, and I enjoy in-depth conversations about grammar like this because I'm an autist like you say and Japanese grammar is one of the main objects of my autism. I consider it leisure time well spent.
>but grammar isn't reality, dude. It's an abstraction
And people argue over abstractions all the time. I think it's fun. And at least I back up my statements with facts instead of just talking down to everyone who disagrees with me and expecting people to kowtow to my non-existent authority.
>So give me an example of a conditional "based on" the 仮定形 that isn't 仮定形＋ば or ～たら or ～なら, then.
Compound conditions that start with 仮定形＋ば but where the actual logical condition being expressed isn't the one that ば attaches to, like ばよかったら.
I made this image at 6 months or so of learning Japanese feeling despair at the thought of struggling like I was forever, but now at 3.5-ish years I don't struggle with easy stuff at all, so I guess if I were the front I would say "like 2-3 years"
That doesn't make any sense in the context of your original post and in general. That's not a "compound conditional" (I've never even heard of such a thing) it's just a conditional nested inside another conditional (which is strange).
It's short, so if you've got the time [and] if it's alright [with you] please try giving it a listen.
You could rewrite it with a comma between あれば and よかったら and the meaning wouldn't change at all, to my ears.
(But I'm not even sure if this is natural-sounding or written by a native, there's very few search results for "ばよかったら" and most of them sound like they're written by gaijin to me, but I could be wrong.）
What makes this ～ばよかったら a "compound" conditional that deserves to be treated apart from ～ば and ～たら in their individual meanings?
Is it this?
>where the actual logical condition being expressed isn't the one that ば attaches to
So 暇がある isn't the "actual logical condition" being expressed, but 良い is? Then how does 暇がある fit into the sentence?
have free time + it's alright = please listen
don't have free time + it's alright = it's okay not to listen
have free time + it's not alright = it's okay not to listen
don't have free time + it's not alright = it's okay not to listen
The "have free time" condition is still required for the subsequent result to happen, so I would say it qualifies as an "actual logical condition" but you might have some definition of one of those words that I don't.
And in the event that you decide to say that this one particular instance of ～ばよかったら is not actually a compound conditional but there are other instances out there which are, please give me an example. The burden of proof is on you.
And, how does it fit into your original point that ～ば conditionals and other conditionals based on the 仮定形 in certain contexts are keigo? In what situation could you use ～ば＋（用言の連用形）＋たら (supposedly a compound conditional based on the 仮定形) to express something in keigo where, in your words ～たら or ～と conditionals would be better? In non-keigo, should the example above have been expressed 暇があったら聞いてみてください? Because that means something completely different.
If your original point had been worded along the lines of "たらば and ならば sound more stiff and formal than たら and なら" then I would have had no issue with it, but that's not what you said. So again I'm going to suggest that you're just making stuff up to save face because you hate admitting that you're wrong and/or baiting me because you know I'll bite.
But I can't argue with you if you use terms that only you know the definitions to so please define your terms concretely for me if you want this to continue.
It'll be Japanese grammar jargon vs. linguistics 302 grammar jargon and neither of us will get anywhere but it might be fun.
ばよかったら was a terrible example and I have no idea why I posted it. Here are some that I was actually thinking about when I posted about compound conditionals already. It's the sort that still makes sense when you insert a 、, not the sort that acts as a true compound like たらば・ならば.
In situations like these, 口語 would use different wording to avoid the ば altogether, rather than choosing a wording that uses it and adding もしかしたら to change the nature of the condition. The first one uses both もしかしたら and かもしれない not because they serve slightly different attitudes of possibility, but because もしかしたら changes how ば relates to the conclusion of the condition.
This example uses よかったら but it doesn't change the semantics much and doesn't have a non-口語 flavor to it.
>So again I'm going to suggest that you're just making stuff up to save face because you hate admitting that you're wrong and/or baiting me because you know I'll bite.
Actually I just want to see how far I can go from mainstream Japanese grammar and still dig myself out of the hole made by doing so.
I'm going to bed, so pretend this is my next response to whatever you post. I sketched out several possible responses depending on what problems you find in >>17638659, but I won't get to your next post before falling asleep if it takes as long as the last few, so I decided to flesh out this one and post it anyway because it lets me go further away from Japanese grammar. When I wake up I'll still read whatever you post, I'm just going to be asleep when you post it.
ば is normally used with conditions where ば is a sufficient condition for the following statement. By inserting もしかしたら, the condition itself is doubted, not just the result. "Perhaps, if I X, Y (as opposed to Y not happening, because I only care about Y, like "Maybe if I eat fruit I'll stop being sick")" rather than "If I X, Y might happen (as opposed to something else, because I care about X, like "If I eat fruit I might get fat")". With doubtworthy conditions like the former, 口語 usually uses なら or たら on the condition because they have more modal flexibility about the condition itself.
It has to do with grammatical modality, but I'm not 100% certain whether different 口語 dialects treat the different conditions with the same grammatical modalities, so I can't give an exact explanation.
If you're interested in how western conception of modality itself might relate to Japanese, common moods associated with conditions are almost all the Epistemic ones, in addition to the Gnomic, Precative, Propositive, Imprecative, and Optative, though the last four (after Gnomic, not including it) would only be associated with conditions in Japanese in the sense that you could build them out of conditional phrases (like ばいい and たらいい). Those gaijin posts with ばよかったら (in the highly connected sense, not in the loosely connected sense that accepts a 、) were probably an unconscious attempt to use the Propositive or Permissive inside of a conditional condition (i.e. if so-and-so sees situation X with Y mood).
There are other examples where ば is used along with another conditional expression to change modality but I'm getting very tired and I would probably mess up describing them. That's why my last post was so vague.
In your first two example sentences, もしかしたら is functioning as an adverb (you might think of it as a set phrase):
Supposing that something might be the case, although the probability is low. Just maybe.
>adding もしかしたら to change the nature of the condition
Given that it's an adverb, it's modifying the following predicate in both sentences, stated or otherwise. Adverbs do not modify previous clauses unless it's some kind of inverted sentence, which this is not.
This still expresses "if we can get the students to understand (to make widely known among themselves) that it's dangerous..."
So it doesn't fit the "actual logical condition being expressed isn't the one that ば attaches to" remark, since 生徒達に周知してもらう is still the condition necessary for the subsequent result:
[then we] might (かもしれない) by some off-chance (もしかしたら) be able to curb (抑えられる) the damage (被害は).
If I were to attack Azel (アゼルを攻撃すれば) from my current position (今の僕の位置から), then just maybe (もしかしたら)...
Attacking is still the required condition in this case for whatever the unstated result is.
>In situations like these, 口語 would use different wording to avoid the ば altogether
Your remark was about 敬語 vs. ため口 originally, have we shifted into 口語 vs. 文語? Because that's completely different. All of these example sentences so far have been in 口語. And even if you meant ため口 that still doesn't make sense because they're already in ため口 too.
>もしかしたら changes how ば relates to the conclusion of the condition
I don't think that's true. I think もしかしたら is just one component of the conclusion, and I don't think that makes ば、もしかしたら into a "compound conditional."
And I think your third example sentence is of exactly the same nature as the iffy ばよければ example I posted above.
I might be able to help make your point for you:
In this case the necessary condition is not WiiUのゲームだけ遊べる but WiiUのゲームだけ遊べればいい, so I might be willing to call this a "compound conditional," but only in scare quotes because l don't believe there's such a grammatical concept in Japanese that needs to be distinguished from one conditional being nested inside another, separate conditional (as in this example).
And that still doesn't have anything to do with the assertion you made that
>Using ～ば conditionals (or other conditionals based on the 仮定形) where they're technically logically inappropriate, where ～たら or ～と conditionals would be better.
is a form or component of 敬語. The above sentence is definitely both 口語 and ため口.
>Adverbs do not modify previous clauses unless it's some kind of inverted sentence, which this is not.
that's where you're wrong. this is one of the things we learn in linguistics, adverbs can change anything in the entire speech act. period. the statement i quoted is 100% wrong. i don't know how he did it but anon managed to ensnare you.
Should we ask Noam Chomsky for an expert consultation?
modifies the inflected word that follows
The only exception it mentions is:
So they can also modify nouns and other adverbs, which aren't inflected words.
>this is one of the things we learn in linguistics, adverbs can change anything in the entire speech act.
This is just a statement you're making based on your own personal studies of the "science" of linguistics, which I have no interest in and which I probably have less knowledge of than you do, because while I have studied linguistics in University classes I dropped out after only 3 years because I hated it.
I'm not speaking from a standpoint of linguistics, I'm talking about Japanese grammar in particular, and I'm not pulling statements out of my own head as proof, I'm giving you evidence form outside sources that support the things I'm saying.
So maybe in your mind もしかしたら is somehow modifying 周知してもらえれば instead of 抑えられるかもしれない, but I believe it's modifying the latter and I can cite sources to back up my positions.
What can you do except say "Nuh uh, linguists say that's wrong"? I have seen no hard evidence for any of your positions.
>the statement i quoted is 100% wrong. i don't know how he did it but anon managed to ensnare you.
I won't directly accuse you of samefagging without proof but I'm 95% sure you're samefagging. And I know your favorite debate technique is to latch on to one small part of the opponent's post that you think is technically wrong and use that as proof that everything they say is stupid because this isn't my first time in /djt/, but I don't think it works here.
congrats you pulled off an oversimplified dictionary definition that doesn't have anything to do with reality outside of really basic examples and then called me a samefag
i'm very familiar with djt too and love watching your arguments because you stoop to insane logic like dictionaries > the entire field of linguistics to save face when the logic you use to corner people fails and it's amazing