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Daily Japanese Thread DJT #1843

This is a red board which means that it's strictly for adults (Not Safe For Work content only). If you see any illegal content, please report it.

Thread replies: 894
Thread images: 92

Cornucopia of Resources / Guide
Read the guide before asking questions.
http://djtguide.neocities.org/

Previous thread: >>17611798

This thread is for the discussion and learning of Japanese with raw VNs, LNs, Jdrama, anime and manga.
If you have no interest in otaku media or want to request a translation, this is not the thread for you.
Remember to sage!
>>
DJT is a meme.
>>
>spend about a year learning kanji and grammar and shit. nowhere near fluent but feeling good about my reading and sentence composition
>go to Japan
>every time anyone says anything it just sounds like "ching chong ding dong -shimasu"
It's a good thing they have signs for everything. I haven't understood a single thing anyone has said to me except for when the cashier at the konbini asked if I wanted my noodles heated up. So, heads up to any new learners.
>>
>I mined the word 研鑽 from the sentence "ケンさんと知り合いだったりし…"
>>
>>17630464
If only you'd spent a year learning Japanese instead.
>>
>>17630473
Or spent any time at all practicing listening. Although I don't know how to "practice" listening.
>>
>>17630481
I think the key is quantity. Imagine if Anon spent as much time on listening as anki.
>>
おはようおにいちゃん

おにいちゃんのしんごうきは

よこ?たて?
>>
>>17630481
There are a lot of shows or news or whatever you can watch. Doesnt even need to be anime, just normal tv shows or whatever.
>>
>>17630481
>Although I don't know how to "practice" listening.
Watch anime you've seen subbed without subs. This way you already know what's going on which it makes it easier to figure things out that you otherwise might not have understood. Cute girls doing cute things shows work best since the language is generally simple, they generally take place in school settings so have the common school-related vocabulary that shows up in lots of weeb media, female speakers enunciate things more clearly than male speakers and speak in more standard/less slangy Japanese so they're a lot easier to understand, and most importantly you don't really need to fully understand what's going on to enjoy it since there's no real plot to speak of.

Attention span is plays an important role in this. You have to try to remain attentive or your brain will just go into TV-watching zombie mode and stop paying attention to what the characters are saying.

Also, it can help to listen to the same thing over and over again. With every repeated listen (up to a certain point), your brain notices more and more things which it missed the first time round. You don't actually have to watch the episode again though, you can just listen to the audio from it while doing other things. When an episode is fresh in your memory you will be able to remember what was happening on screen at the time while just listening along, so there's no need to actually watch it more than once.
>>
>>17630464
On the contrary when I play VNs I can understand something when characters are voiced, but can't read the text.
>>
>>17630481
I practiced listening by making an audio anki deck with just voices on the front side using rikaisama to save the audio. And then I combined it with watching all my anime without subs. It's working well for me so far.
>>
>>17619205
Can anyone help me out with this?
>>
I'm trying to read Yotsubato as according to the guide but it's such a slog to read through, I swear 95% of it is just kana! Do you all have any recommendations for something a bit more readable?
>>
>>17630672
https://warosu.org/jp/thread/S17501707#p17511198
>>
>>17630547
sorry dude but anime is not gonna help you really understand real people in real life and you dont have to look very far to find accounts of this
>>
>>17630675
it will actually
>>
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I configured the real-time import feature as written in the guide and it's working fine. However the audio part is not working? When I add simple kanji to the deck I'm not getting any audio.
>>
>>17630681
you gotta try to veil your misinformation a little better sorry
>>
>>17630702
im not the one posting misinformation bro
>>
>>17630705
judging by your insta replies id say youre trying way too hard right now as well
>>
>>17630711
no i just happen to be here
>>
>>17630674
>having studied for nearly four years
I've studied for five weeks so I'm not at that level to read only kana. I just want something more readable for my level because whenever I try to read I look at a few pages of Yotsubato I put it right back down and try again a few days later only for the cycle to repeat. To improve I need to read and I need to start reading with something a bit simpler
>>
>>17630717
If you're at five weeks literally everything is going to be a slog whether it's written in half kana or not. It's probably a good idea to look for other manga if you're considering it, but don't think it'll solve that problem.

>>17622195
>There are easy manga with furigana that aren't Yotsuba. There's so many that if you look it's impossible not to find something compelling.

>You can preview random manga (to see if it's easy) by googling the name of the manga plus 立ち読み or 試し読み. For example:

>https://www.google.com/search?q=絶対霊域 立ち読み&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
http://sokuyomi.jp/product/zettaireii_001/CO/1/

>You can also just browse those digital manga sites and look for interesting manga that way instead of starting with the name.

>Once you find a manga that's fairly interesting, google its name plus "zip", or search for it on nyaa. You'll find a pirated version 90% of the time or more.
>>
>>17630717
There is literally nothing that will be easy for you to understand at 5 weeks of learning, except contrived textbook sentences that use the few words you already know. You have to start somewhere, and wherever you start will be difficult.

Don't expect to understand the whole thing, just try and pick out some sentences that you can read and figure those out. A tool like Rikaichan can help you figure out the boundaries between words, if that's giving you trouble.
>>
>>17630717
I'm at week one but I gave up on manga for the time and instead I'm trying to read NHK easy news like anon recommended last thread. It's much more interesting for me than something like Yotsuba

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/k10011137151000/k10011137151000.html for example
>>
>>17630752
Zzzzzz
>>
>>17630717
dont worry i got something that im sure youll mostly understand and pick up some new things as well while being in all kana! you dont have to join the idiot crowd who deciphers texts way above them 1 word at a time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhLMfvVO0Cs
>>
おなかすいた

ピザたべたい
>>
>>17630773
なんか俺もさ
>>
>>17630672
Just get the reading guide. I had problems at first reading it as well, because of all the slang I am not used to, since I only knew textbook stuff at that time. The reading pack helped a ton, currently reading the third volume. There are still some sentences I dont understand, but in those cases I just look the sentence up in the english version and try to make sense of the words.
>>
>>17630780
ピザまんたべよー
>>
Since I couldn't find it in the guide: does anyone have any /djt/-approved video games? Since I started learning only recently, going through long blocks of text like in VNs still feels like a pretty big slog, whereas in games it at least gets interspersed with some combat or cutscenes or whatever. RPGs seem perfect for this, since they have a lot of text but often not so much that it becomes a chore.

I'm enjoying Digimon Adventure for PSP so far, much of the dialogue is voiced, and all the dialogue (although not the menus) have furigana, so that's pretty useful. The only downside is that the resolution is too low to read everything effectively, some of the kanji are hard to recognize and the furigana is absolutely tiny (although in my case it does motivate me to learn to recognize the kanji better rather than focusing on the furigana). It's also a game for kids so the dialogue is simple enough.

After this I might go for Tales of Phantasia X, it's also almost fully voiced although it doesn't have furigana.

/vr/ usually recommends Pokémon games, but since they're almost completely in kana I find them very difficult to read effectively (although games past gen V do have kanji).
>>
>>17630790
>does anyone have any /djt/-approved video games?

No such thing but basically anything with cutscenes that pretend to be like a VN (compile heart's recent games are a good example, including neptunia, fairy fencer f, moero, etc) will work well. Texthookers probably won't work but in such games you can use scrollback and replay voice lines.
>>
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I completely agree with him

https://twitter.com/bell4210/status/908041134466768896
>>
>>17630801
日本語難しいですね
>>
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てめえが
欲しがってたんじゃねえか

what does the たん in the middle stand for?
>>
>>17630819
てめえが欲しがっていたのじゃないか
>>
>>17630790
dont worry i got your back too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2hHCZdWtTQ
>>
>>17630795
>compile heart's recent games are a good example, including neptunia, fairy fencer f, moero
A lot of the steam releases for those don't have kanji
>Superdimension Neptune VS Sega Hard Girls
>Moero Chronicle
>Fairy Fencer F Advent Dark Force
are about the only ones i can be bother to confim that do
Also, fuck xseed while we're at it
>>
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>>17630889
Just check the store page dude. If it says Japanese text that means it has Japanese text.
>>
>>17630897
I know, thats how i know most of them dont have it
maybe its banned in aus? what is that game, can i check it?
>>
>>17630903
That's re;birth 1. Definitely has Japanese, they added it after release but it's there and runs with it.
>>
>>17630906
Oh i see it now, i didn't know they added it later, huh
ya done good idea factory
>>
事情 ↔ 情事
It's so easy to remember some words.
>>
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>>17630790

The PSP versions of FF1 and 2 allow for switching between English and Japanese from the menus at least.

Also if you want to do ToP, someone wrote out a transcript of (all?) the Japanese text in the PSP version, spanning several pages. Handy for looking things up.

http://restalittle.blog.fc2.com/blog-category-7.html
>>
キングコンガ

むりー
>>
>>17630795
Thanks for the tips. I actually own the English version of one of the Neptunia games, but I gotta say, it wasn't my cup of tea. The story and dialogue was okay, but the gameplay was really dull. But I didn't play very much of it.

>>17630858
I like it, it looks really good. I'll give it a shot.

>>17630927
Awesome, thanks. Didn't know there was a transcript available! I know most of the plot since I played both the SNES and GBA versions before (neither of which had great translations, the first had the 'Arche fucks like a tiger' line from that one fan translator, the other one was the official translation which translated 'Ragnarok' into 'Kangaroo'), but it'll definitely help for the less easily legible kanji.
>>
>>17630965
頑張れ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN8F4PZRUDs
>>
>>17630795
Texthookers work for the Neptunia games
>>
>>17631041
nice
>>
>>17631018
でっでーででっでーででっでーででんぽこぽこぽこ
>>
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>>17631051
その調子
>>
The guides in the op are really useful, thanks to whoever took part in creating it
>>
>>17631071
はましょうのせいふく

そんなんじゃないよね
>>
Is it just me or does shinmoemanga have some pretty bad scans (if they're scans)? My memory might be playing tricks on me, but I remember scanlations as being better quality than the raws uploaded here.

I think I'll just go physical with everything, but I'd still like to ask: how is the quality on digital manga that's for sale on sites like honto?
>>
>>17631119
Most of them are digital rips, which are intentionally low quality so that pirates have to inconvenience themselves with scanners to get high quality copies.
>>
https://youtu.be/U4-NKxoWjpo
>>
My wife

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtRMN_A-y5k
>>
I'm starting to notice a pattern I think. Would it be correct to say that most adjectives that end in い can be made into adverbs by changing it to く?
ex. 安い-->安く
Cheap --> Inexpensively
>>
>>17631549
Better submit that to a scientific journal before someone else notices
>>
>>17631549

Wouldn't it be easier to read up on some basic grammar instead of trying to figure it out on your own?
>>
>>17631549
Wow. Why did I never notice this?
>>
>>17631562
But I thought you were supposed to just completely go balls deep into reading before you even know what a kana is?
>>
>>17630675
The language in anime is broadly the same as what people speak in real life. The only "problem" is that it's scripted and professionally performed so the language is unnaturally perfect (you miss the lazy, slurring together of sounds, mumbling and mistakes that occur in real speech).

You can make the same complaint about any other form of media though, besides maybe shitty game shows and panel shows on TV which are a bit more improvised and one-take-only affairs, but even then people are going to be speaking with unnatural levels of care and formality since they're on TV rather than idly chatting with a friend or acquaintance and don't want come across as boorish and unsophisticated to the people watching.

In terms of helping you get used the patterns of grammar and the flow of sentences, anime is as good as other media.
>>
>>17631572
>he fell for the reading meme
Wale up.
>>
>>17630447
何 落ち着た声
出してんだ!
>Don't be so matter-of-fact about it!

is this a subs2srs error or am i totally missing something here?

isnt it rather something like:
>what? calming voice, get out there!
>>
>>17631651
声を出す
>>
>>17631603
obviously anime uses japanese therefore its valid as a form of input right but i only said it wont help you understand real people or help you interact with them really at all which is still the truth generally
>>
>>17631764
nothing you said after "input" reflects reality at all

stop watching dramas
>>
>>17631768
why do you talk about reflecting reality and then immediately imply something like you know me

stop projecting your bubble reality that you write in your head because thats not reality
>>
>>17631783
pretty sure you're the one projecting bud

stop watching dramas
>>
>>17631786
i mean youre just flaming me and not really offering any insight into anything to the contrary of what i said so stop posting/projecting prolly is the way to go for you
>>
>>17631790
dunno what you're talking about dude pretty sure i'm telling you you're spewing garbage

stop watching dramas
>>
You're both autistic.
>>
>>17631797
i mean if you wanna spam this thread im game to watch you do it
>>
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>長居
>長い
>>
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>>17630790
フォーチュンサモナーズ ~アルチェの精霊石~ is one of the best games for beginners/intermediates to Japanese since it has furigana for all of its written dialogue.
>>
>>17631803
pretty sure spewing garbage about japanese not being japanese just to be aggressive is spam by your standards

stop watching dramas
>>
>>17631816
? i didnt say that at all maybe you dont understand what understand means or maybe youre doing that thing that thing the kids talk about what was it oh yeah going "full retard"
>>
>>17631825
yeah you did when you said "it wont help you understand real people or help you interact with them really at all", in english that translates to "it's not japanese"

stop watching dramas
>>
>>17631830
but like it doesnt at all haha sorry for your poor ability to infer meaning i guess
>>
>>17631849
seems like you know english so badly that you say things you don't mean, thanks for proving your incredible ignorance
>>
>>17631855
usually people get aggressive because they dont understand something which seems to be the case here for you and im just standing my ground to see how long youll do this for
>>
>>17631865
no, pretty sure you can't pretend that what you say doesn't mean what it says
>>
>>17631872
i dont have to pretend because youre allowed to infer how you want but if youre gonna twist it and project aggressively at me then im gonna stiff arm you till you get tired of windmilling because i deal with kids like you all the time and its very easy
>>
>>17631892
let me illustrate what you did here, replacing your asinine comments about anime and japanese with something similar

"hello everyone this is my first post in this thread and I'd like you all to know that reading japanese light novels won't make you learn how to read written japanese"

this would only be true for a language learner if they weren't made in written japanese, so obviously you would be saying that japanese light novels aren't made in written japanese

substitute light novels for anime and written japanese for spoken anime and you will see the problem
>>
>>17631893
lol whoops that "spoken anime" should be "spoken japanese"

point remains valid
>>
All of this arguing about capability of interacting with real Japanese people sure would be a lot more relevant on /int/, not sure what this has to do with otaku !
>>
>>17631893
>>17631897
i mean just because you have what you want to believe there doesnt mean its reality also maybe you should take a second to breathe and proofread when youre writing up your posts in a fury like that

>>17631904
yeah i dont get why that guy wanted to fight so bad about it like he wrote a whole bunch of crap that didnt amount to anything
it was and will probably remain a large exercise in futility for him and as a very meager amount of entertainment for me
>>
>>17631932
dude when you come into the thread and argue with someone by saying something that's complete bullshit you can't expect not to get an argument as a result

there's nothing nonfictional about anime being fake japanese that doesn't prepare you for conversations or whatever, that's a personal fantasy
>>
any good resources/tools for writing Japanese? the only kanji that aren't two strokes i can write by memory are 歳 and 私, and it pisses me off.
there was something called a "boogie board" in the guide a few years ago, but i haven't really heard anything about it since. anyone used one before?
>>
>>17631947
pencil, paper, and kklc
>>
>>17631943
i never said its fake japanese get over it son i just said it wont help you understand people and this is because a lot of the sounds are gonna be foreign to you compared to what youre used to and do you know why that is? its very easy to understand and the the guy that originally replied to me before you jumped on me with your buttrage pretty much understood it but then i reiterated my intention to bait this exact scenario
>>
>>17631960
>it wont help you understand people
But it helped me understand people. Now what?
>>
>>17631960
hello everyone this is my first post in the thread and I would like to disagree with someone even though I'm wrong and what I'm saying is destructive, please don't disagree with me

>i never said its fake japanese
you said it right here

>it wont help you understand real people or help you interact with them really at all

this thing you said is only true if it's fake japanese, therefore you said the thing that it's fake japanese

just because you don't literally say a sequence of words doesn't mean you don't say the thing those words represent
>>
>>17631947
Learn radicals and a few dozen kanji. After that you'll be able to write pretty much any kanji you see with the correct stroke order just from intuition (there are handful of weird ones like 必, but those are rare exceptions).

Obviously though, to learn to write a specific kanji from memory requires specific practice of writing that kanji from memory, and just knowing how to write individual kanji when prompted by an English keyword as with KKLC, RTK, etc. does not equate to being able to write words (which requires you to remember the readings for the characters you're writing so you know which order they appear in or where the kanji ends and the okurigana begins).
>>
>>17631967
and then you got the rest of the way from interacting more with real people whether single or dual communication avenues is probably it? if you want to fight just prove your mettle now and save me a 20 reply chain like i have with this guy

>>17631970
hello congratulations on your first post here is your introductory djt starter pack a copy of the tyler kims best hits audio cd and a flash card starter deck a $19.99 value yours free
>>
>>17632003
very funny, now please explain how your statement reflects reality, then explain how, reflecting reality, it doesn't mean that anime is fake japanese

after all, you said that it doesn't *help* you understand real people or *help* you interact with them really *at all*

that's a very strong statement with very little room for misinterpretation, it places anime in exactly one place: not helping you acquire japanese in any capacity, because if it helped you acquire japanese even a little, it would help you understand real people or help you interact with them, at least a little

if it doesn't help you acquire japanese in any capacity, it's not japanese, so any such japanese anime can only be "fake japanese"

you should be able to solve this
>>
>>17632003
No, I don't interact with people. I just watch a youtube video or talk show here and there which makes it about 1% of my listening input. And when I do that, I have the same comprehension ability as when I am watching anime.
>>
>>17632006
i dont know why youre trying to force all or nothing here because you forgot when i said words like really and generally and thats because something identifiable might make it through to you but otherwise its the case of this guy which is where this all began >>17630464
>>
>>17632042
what you said was about an all or nothing situation dude, you can't pretend you didn't say what you said
>>
>>17632042
Single examples don't generalize.
>>
Something happened to kitsunekko and I can't find a way to download any subtitles from there. I want to watch Non Non Biyori with Japanese subtitles because I mostly understand what the girls are saying but not always, and referring to the English translation by HorribleSubs is just distracting as fuck in addition to not being very helpful if it happens to be a sentence where the amount of words I fail to pick up is multiple (possibly due to not knowing them); also, it seems poorly written. Please help.
>>
>>17632042
actually no you're right i shouldn't be so stubborn about the fact that you used "at all" and "help" as exremifiers because what you were intending to say was obvious the entire time

it's true that anime isn't 100% natural but that's true of everything that isn't just normal daily interactions
>>
>being such a newfag you get baited this hard
>>
>>17632095
Who are you quoting?
>>
>>17632097
My thoughts
>>
>>17632097
You, toss pot.
>>
nice on topic discussion
>>
>>17632050
i dont follow you. you can say something 'wont really help but you can still do it' and that just means maybe there will be some effect but youre not getting at the real issue by doing it in the eyes of the one who said that

>>17632046
>>17632081
should i just link you the davido video its a pretty reasonable illustration of the point

>>17632121
thanks you too
>>
>>17632079
Some kiddie defaced the site but you can still use it on archive.org. All the subtitle files are still live on the server.
>>
>>17632188
Thank you.
>>
>>17632079
There's a site called Animelon I found through some anon in one of these threads before. It has a whole integrated thing where you can watch Anime with the ability to look stuff up without leaving the video, and you can enable Japanese and/or English subtitles, or watch without any if you want. It has Non Non Biyori, as well as a good variety of other stuff.
>>
>>17632286
Man, learning Japanese has never been easier. It truly is the year of Our Lord 2017.
>>
>>17631312
cute
>>
>>17630690
-Make sure you're not blocking Japanesepod101

-Make sure you have the "Save audio when one of the real time import keys" option in the Anki tab of Rikai's settings is toggled

-Make sure the save path for the audio is the correct folder. Anki's storage was moved to be in "AppData/Roaming/Anki" by default in one of the recent updates.
>>
https://kotobank.jp/word/%E8%B5%B0%E3%82%8B%E3%83%BB%E5%A5%94%E3%82%8B%E3%83%BB%E8%B6%A8%E3%82%8B-358425
このが読む難しいですよ。私を手伝ってください。
>>
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>>17630668
Come on, no one can help with this at all? It can't be THAT hard.
>>
>>17632752
走る = to run
奔る = to run [with urgency]
趨る = to run [a vehicle (operate)]
Also your この should be a これ。
>>
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>>17630447
how the fuck do I memorise kanji
>>
>>17632797
Flashcards.
>>
>>17632188
>site exists purely for educational purposes and has little to no value
>some retard sees a vulnerability
>thinks it would be funny to shut the site down
why would anyone do this
>>
>>17632836

Why do people ever vandalize anything? It's because they derive pleasure and satisfaction from ruining things and from the attention it gets.
>>
>>17630752
Hey I just read that one too.

People should stop telling beginners to practice with manga. You're better off reading articles where you can access rikaisama. If you see words you don't know in manga it takes forever to look up the meaning. If it has kanji you don't know it's even worse, you have to draw it into google translate. It's extremely tedious and inefficient.
>>
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>>17632836
>>17632882
>>
>>17632947
if you go through hard times with a kanji and get stuck looking at it for 5 or maybe 10 minutes dont you think youre more likely to remember it in the future now that youve spent some quality time with it and have even drawn it

kids these days and their instant gratification
just use a machine translator and accept your fate as another half asser who never sees anything through truly in life
>>
>>17632969
I'm trying to learn japanese, not kanji. You learn a language by getting lots of comprehensible input, not slowly translating manga panels. Also, I'm surprised you're still here after having that mental breakdown last thread.
>>
>>17633001
well good luck with that but you should probably also stop reading manga because thats also slowing you down then i think when theres way faster avenues to get that nice input you want and need

also what mental breakdown
>>
>>17632754
>1) The なんてのも in the first clause, I'm not sure how to parse that. My best guess is that the の is acting like a noun like "one" or "thing", so the first part of the sentence would be something like "Although the magazine also advertised things like 'southern country tour guides', ..."
Yes.

>2) The そこはサタン様のこと、. I know what it means on its own, I'm just know sure what it adds to the sentence, or why it can be a comma-delimited clause by itself. I would think that there should at least be some particle after the こと.
It's like "when it comes to that Satan-sama". It's drawing attention to the distinction between his behaviour/actions and what would normally be expected.

>3) Which usage of と is being used in ...小麦色になるのが一番らくちんだと、含み笑いで... I don't think it can be "if", since the preceding clause is present tense and the following clause is past tense.
You're constraining yourself by trying to think about it in English. That pattern is natural in Japanese but there's no way of translating it into English without it sounding weird. Also, the preceding clause is future, not present.

だと = if it's the case (present)/if it would be the case (future)

I don't claim to be good at Japanese, but since everyone else was ignoring you I decided to try helping you. If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me and answer your questions properly. In the future though, I don't think you should waste so much time thinking about a single sentence.
>>
>>17632947
Kanjitomo is pretty good for mangos. VNs are also usually suggested as reading practice since you can easily hook them and use rikai. You can also get LNs in browsers
>>
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I'm about to finish hanahira.
People here always say you should read something that you really want to read, instead easy stuff.

I think I'll read monobeno next then.
Whats the difference between the 2 versions?
>>
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>lost motivation to do anki core because djt told me that it's a meme
>can't bring myself to read either
>>
まずうちさぁ・・・屋上・・・あんだけど
>>
>>17633148
Who are you quoting?
>>
麦茶をのみたいよ
>>
>>17633166
my life narrator
>>
>>17633148
you can read just read along with the narrator and let this be the reboot of your nihongo journey starting off right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU12Qrz8H1I
i guarantee by the end of this youll at least know what you just read and even pick up some new stuff!
>>
>>17632947
I think it's good when accessing kanji is made difficult. It forces you to remember them instead of relying on the dictionary. Also, you should only use J-J dictionaries.
>>
>>17633194

>Also, you should only use J-J dictionaries.

Nah, if you can't properly interpret the explanations there's not much point. You should use them whenever you can, but that you should "only" use them isn't practical advice.
>>
>>17633102
That's summarized on the vndb description page for -Happy End-. No reason to play the old version.
>>
>>17633205
Well, if you can't interpret them, then you can't learn Japanese (until you will interpret them). It's a crash course on the thought patterns of Japanese, so why not take it?
>>
>>17633076
Thanks man, I appreciate it.

>In the future though, I don't think you should waste so much time thinking about a single sentence.
I've been reading other things since I posted that, of course. But there have been too many times where I see a sentence I don't understand, can't figure it out, and just go "well I guess I'll read something else". I'm afraid I won't progress if I just stick to what I'm comfortable with, so at some point I have to drill down and make sure I really understand things.

I'm still having a little trouble wrapping my head around how a past tense verb can come after だと. Would it be alright to translate the だと in my sentence as "given that"? Is this like how I sometimes see the -たら form to mean "after" rather than "if"?
>>
>>17633226
Go read the HJGP entry for と.
>>
>>17633186
wow thanks anon very much
I feel silly for being so negative
>>
>>17633226
Formally speaking that だと is an abbreviation, as is common for this style. You can expand it with something like 〜思って, and then it will all make sense.
>>
>>17633235
Cool, I got it, and thanks for teaching me about the HJGP, I only knew about the DOJG before.
>>
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Guys I am sorry to bother you, but an image board I visit time to time because of materials they make seem to have gone full xenophobia mode, and the content they host is now being hidden with some password, I don't actually know japanese but it was fairly easy to obtain before, but now.....

THIS IMAGE, anyone can make sense of it? I think is a riddle of some sort.
>>
Does the updated DoJG deck still have the scan images for explanations, or have those been removed? I lost mine but I want as few typos as possible and don't mind having scan images that make the deck filesize larger.
>>
>>17633294
password is Morimoto's partner's first name in Hepburn-style romaji.
>>
>>17633219

Because arbitrarily limiting your available resources is counterproductive and solely relying on one which you don't fully grasp is likely to do more harm than good. Relying too much on English is not advisable in the long run, but making no use of it at all is a huge waste as well. There's no sense in doing everything the hard way just for the sake of it, especially when you already have the knowledge of an entire language which you can make use of.

Both J-E and J-J dictionaries are readily available and perusable at will, so it goes without saying that one should make use of both and combine their information to get the most accurate and easily grasped picture, at least up until they can properly rely on the latter.
>>
>>17633303
>>17633294
I mean Matsumoto
>>
>>17633295
Still has them.
>>
>>17633317
but which mattymoto dude
>>
>>17633327
outto
>>
>>17633327
So written how? 松本 did not work.
>>
>>17632685
Late reply but thanks. I had forgotten to tick "Save audio when one of the real time import keys"
>>
また北朝鮮がサイルをの発射したんやけど無事に通過したわ・・・
>>
>>17633335
i like that guy
>>
>>17633345
Shit that's true
One day it won't 通過 only anymore
>>
>>17633341
Read >>17633303 again and then try googling 松本
>>
>>17633304
Can't argue with that. My post was intended as a call to study J-J dictionaries more, said in a provocative way that made it easy to attack and take down logically, so it being djt, the opportunity was immediately taken. Since we both agree that J-E, though essential at first, will hold you back without J-J, the common ground is reached.
>>
>>17633354
The only reason NK would hit Japan is if someone struck them first. The whole reason the Kim dynasty has been so desperate for ICBMs and nukes is as insurance to avoid going the way of Saddam Hussein. Striking a US ally would ensure that they went the way of Saddam Hussein, so it would make no sense whatsoever for them to do it unless they were already under imminent threat of attack and thus had nothing to lose.

NK doesn't want a NATO invasion and NATO doesn't want ICBMs and nuclear warheads flying their way, so neither side will do anything. It's all just posturing.
>>
>>17632947
Try reading a VN with a texthooker feeding the text into Firefox. Check the resources guide for instructions.
>>
にほん空爆されてるんだけど

にほんじんなにもできない
>>
>>17633407
This is the boring answer for people who want to see a good war on TV, but it's true. Kim has said as much, he just wants his little regime to be left alone. The only way we'll see a real war is if someone makes a mistake, like if one of NK's missiles crashes into Japan by accident.
>>
>>17633194
>>17633473
Appreciate these responses, I will do both. Thanks.
>>
>>17633529
にほんの弾道弾はどうしたんだ
>>
>>17633569
It's very easy to abuse Rikaisama and Yomichan when doing the VN+texthooker method. It can be tempting, but try to avoid just automatically hovering over every word single. Try to read a word first, then hover over it if you really don't know what it is or if you want to check that you got it right.

Also, when you do have to hover over a word, don't just look straight to the kana in the Rikaisama/Yomichan pop-up and move on. Take note of which kanji the word is written with.
>>
>>17633590
amazonプライムで

かったのがあるとおもうよ
>>
>>17633612
Thanks for the tips. By the way, it it bad if I'm translating the text to english in my head as I read? Should there be a direct translation to the idea?
>>
>>17633656
Not either of them, but "translating in your head" should only really be a thing at the beginning stage when that's all you can do and you don't understand the grammar at an intuitive level yet. The goal is to get to the point where you understand the Japanese as Japanese rather than as Japanese translated into English, and the translating in the beginning stages are more just training wheels while you get used to the language. That kinda gets into the "don't think, feeel" shit that people meme, but there's truth to it.
>>
>>17633656
if you learn baby shit you can have at least an infantile way to break things down in japanese as opposed to translating to english which is really not a good idea a fairly high amount of the time because people tend to try and translate nearly every word and screw up the japanese way to verbalize concepts in the process
>>
たいふうがきてるし

こうげきされたし

日本軍どうするんだろ
>>
>>17633789
get wild and tough
>>
しゅしょうが

「戦争準備せよ」っぽいこと言ってる
>>
台風を攻撃するつもりか
>>
>>17633848
ついにガンダムが出撃するかもしれない
>>
>>17633871
それまだあるのか
>>
この「存在」ってことはずいぶん不愉快ですね
>>
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>>17633897
ゼオライマーもだせるとおもう
>>
>>17633908
おじょうさまも

しゅつげきするとおもう
>>
>>17633924
Is that some fireball charming? I loved that series. Super cute.
>>
>>17633931
せんそうになったら

おじょうさまの新作もなくなるよ

文句は

中国とロシアと朝鮮に言ってね
>>
攻撃の分だけ防衛は頑丈
>>
>>17630447
So I started learning in preparation for a temporary emigration to Japan. I made a post requesting penpals in Japan and I got swamped with about 15 to 20 people wanting to talk to me and they're all women except one.

Now, I'm not dumb enough to think this is a romantic thing (although I am a good looking guy), but I was hoping to talk to some bros. Does anyone know where to meet Japanese guys?

ありがとうございます。
>>
>>17633998

The leather club's two blocks down
>>
アウト
ゲット アウト
ゲット ザ ファック アウト
>>
>>17633998
やらないか?
>>
>>17634026
>>17634013
おいお、わたしの夢の女のこはヤンキでも、わたしはゲイでわない!

わたしは日本語の初心者で、間違っていたら直してください。
>>
>>17634070
でも should have been だけど, right? I was trying to make a joke of it.
>>
If I want to copy text from an html file that has furigana, but want to get rid of the furigana, is there a solution to this besides manually going through the copied text and deleting all the furigana?
>>
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My Epwing dictionary randomly stopped working and I have no idea why. I swear I had it working before, does anyone know how to fix this?

"Please add an EPWING dictionary in the EPWING tab of the options dialogue."
>>
>>17634165
なんでがめんまっくろ?

くろがおすきなの
>>
>>17634014
Sorry anonjin, I don't know who Otto is.
>>
イグノーベル賞がまた日本に

わけがわからないよ
>>
what dictionary do you use when you want to search for the word's etymology?
>>
/djt/ you'll be pleased to know that I have now mastered the art of "XとYの違い" and will no longer be asking you questions. Fuck you.
>>
>>17634530
next time we will endeavour to read your mind and anticipate your needs
申し訳ない
>>
>>17633102
Good luck. Post progress reports when you finish a route or drop it.
>>
Would reading Twitter be any good for practice? Any interesting Jap twitter users?
>>
>>17634734
>Any interesting Jap twitter users?
https://twitter.com/batou_kata
>>
彼氏のちんちんが小さすぎて満足できない
>>
Keep up the good work anons
>>
>>17634804
分かるなぁ、俺の彼氏と同じっすよ
>>
>>17634804
>>17634857
fags
>>
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>>17634819
でてけ
>>
たまごたべたい
>>
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>>
>>17634996

What?
>>
>>17634999
He is approaching death.
He is starting to die.
He is dying.
>>
>>17634996
seems like it's your own fault for not understanding the grammar of the sentence and looking up the wrong thing.
>>
>>17635015

Yep, those sure are three ways to say someone is about to die or has begun dying. "He is starting to die" sounds a bit unnatural but can work depending on the context.

What are you trying to say anon
>>
>>17635026
Bzrt, you're fucking wrong despite being a smug cock-sucker that likes to lecture people.
http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/にかけては
As you can see, this very page gives the proper explanation for the grammar (when it comes to; concerning (an area of expertise)), but has these three example sentences nonetheless. You are wrong. Fucking wrong. Eat shit, loser. There's no way out of this and no worming your way out of it through arguing. You're just objectively wrong. Suck on a goddamn dick and choke on it. Never lecture people on DJT again, you piece of goddamn garbage.
>>17635035
mfw I just thought it was funny how all the example sentences coincidentally talked about death in different ways
>>
よおおぉし!やる気にあふれているで!
今日もええ仕事しまっせー
>>
>>17635078
>You are wrong. Fucking wrong. Eat shit, loser. There's no way out of this and no worming your way out of it through arguing. You're just objectively wrong. Suck on a goddamn dick and choke on it. Never lecture people on DJT again, you piece of goddamn garbage.
r u ok
>>
>>17635105
It's a rare opportunity that a "smug DJT fuck" as they're called slips up and says something thoroughly wrong to the extent that they can't worm their way out of it with whiny argumentation. I wanted to use it this opportunity to the fullest to really beat him down. Maybe he won't ever post here again out of shame, if we're lucky.
>>
>>17634996
そのいみだと

He is あぴありんぐ death.

のほうだとおもうよ
>>
>>
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>回す
>輪姦する
>>
ヘッドセットふっかつしたー

ありがとうおにいちゃん
>>
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勉強 pro-tip: Fap in Japanese.

https://djtguide.neocities.org/resource%20guide.html#Visual%20Novels
https://vndb.org/v/all?q=&fil=tag_inc-214.tagspoil-0.olang-ja&rfil=&s=title&o=a
>>
まえのヘッドセットより

コードがすごくみじかい

ちょっとやばい
>>
I kind of feel like a retard for failing to remember that 慎 has the onyomi of しん even though both 心 and 真, its components, can be read しん。
>>
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COMPELLING CONTENT
>>
I memorized all the jouyou kanji. Can I speak Japanese now?
>>
>>17635401
あめのなかかさをささずにおどるにんげんがいてもいい
>>
Does anyone else find Yomichan to be really slow and unresponsive at times?

Sometimes it works almost as well as Rikaisama, but equally often it seems to have delays of several seconds when hovering over a word.
>>
>>17635435
Just switch to Firefox
>>
>>17635464
I'm on Firefox already, but since Rikaisama won't work for much longer, I decided to switch to Yomichan in advance so that I can get used to using it.

I had a few gripes with it at the beginning, but I've pretty much got used to all the ways it's different from Rikaisama now. The only thing that still bothers me is the unresponsiveness it often seems have.
>>
>>17635364
Forgetting things is natural.
On a side-note, question for everyone.

I'm dimly aware that many kanji are split into two halves, one for sound and one for meaning (roughly). I've currently been steadfastly ignoring this and just remembering the readings/meanings as they come.

Is it at all useful or worth it to remember the thing about halves of kanji?
>>
>>17635418
Why would you want to dance in the rain without an umbrella, though?
>>
>>17635524
>Is it at all useful or worth it to remember the thing about halves of kanji?
There's nothing to really "remember" about "halves." When you see a kanji you take the whole character into account, right? The only thing to "remember" is this:
The smaller half gives you a rough ballpark idea of the kanji's concept while the other half tries to specify the meaning and/or reading. This is not always true though.

位 for example has person on the left for the ballpark idea of what it's about: people. Then on the left you have "stand/rise," which can be interpreted as "standing." While this is a rare case of a kanji making sense with very little extra thought put in, the idea of a "person's standing" equating to its meaning (it means "rank") it's not the norm.
液 has the water on the left but the 夜 on the right doesn't have anything to do with its reading and doesn't add much meaning to make it mean "liquid."
And lastly you have ones like 観 which I personally don't find any meaning in neither the radical nor the phonetic compound. The best I have is that 見 can be read けん so if you change it a little to かん then you have the reading for 観.

In short:
There's not much to really "think" about once you know kanji just give you a clue into the concept and then either specifies or gives you a phonetic hint. Nothing you need to actively keep in mind.
>>
>>17635524
Sometimes you can guess a kanji's reading based on its radicals, but to be sure about it you have to have the readings memorized. It's more of a funny thing that works sometimes than it is a technique you should rely on.
>>
>>17635563
>>17635564
Ah, well - kind of what I expected, unfortunately. I'm not the type to look for magic keys that will let me instantly understand a kanji without studying it, so this isn't a big deal, but at least it's one more little trick for the toolbelt. Thanks weebs.
>>
>>17635601
>Thanks weebs.
なんて生意気なやつやな、お前
>>
>>17635105
he just really wanted to believe that was me or something i think
>>
キングコンガできもちわるくなった

リズム酔い?
>>
>study another language in classroom setting
>there's no compelling content
>we spend the class discussing easy grammar that could be easily internalized by READ MORE
>then we need to produce sentences
Thank god I have Japanese and you guys.
>>
>>17635668
キングコンガ音痴みたい
それにしても諦めないで
>>
ちょっとできないかも

スケルトンとかドラゴンにとびこんでしぬー
>>
>>17635601
radicals are useful for learning kanji. sometimes they intuitively suggest meaning and pronunciation, sometimes just meaning, more often they're just vague clues. however, I find that being familiar with the basic set of radicals helps you process and remember the characters.
>>
How many kanji compounds do you guys have in your mining decks?
>>
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>>17635880
そんなもの知らん
>>
>>17634889
だめ!
>>
>>17635263
What goes around cums around.
>>
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Is it just me or are there excessively many pointless words in Japanese for things that in other languages would've just been expressed with a few other words? Things like 氷塊, which is just a "lump of ice", but instead they made an entirely new word for it.
>>
>>17635998
>pointless words
No such thing.
>>
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あの声優が読むあの名作 - Highlights from various classic novels read aloud by anime seiyuu. mp3

https://mega.nz/#!sI4QAIhK!ku823JWFgReJ9iVlQj3M2aEIk6lmczYunzo8irf-CFo
>>
>>17635998
嫌中憎韓
嫌韓
眼球舐め
邯鄲の歩み
轍鮒
仏倒し
蛙の面に小便
プリン頭
畑水練
辻斬り
壷洗い
盗伐
斬り捨て御免
切り得
取り殺す
五分試し
厭魅
矯角殺牛
四当五落
天下り
屍山血河
八つ裂き
不可説不可説転
>>
>>17635998

氷塊 is literally ice + lump, how is it in any way different from saying "lump of ice" in English? What exactly should they say instead?

Are you high anon
>>
>>17636031
Some of those are pretty funny, I've got to say.
>>
>>17635998
こおりのかたまり is a mouthful, while ひょうかい is short and sweet. There's a reason why onyomi compounds caught on in Japanase.
>>
Is there a way to select what word I want to mine when I hover over a string of kanji or hiragana with Rikaisama?
As we all know, there are a lot of different words in japanese that are pronounced the same or written the same, and Rikaisama lists those pretty exhaustively.
Is there a way to select one instead of always mining the one at the top?
I have heard that there was a version of the plugin that let you select what you wanted but it got abandoned or lost, IIRC.
Can anyone help me out?
>>
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can someone help me by typing out the text for my picture?

im trying to solve a capture to register for something but don't know japanese well enough
>>
>>17636204
>>
Try harder in figuring it out, it's not that difficult.
へむおらえふ
>>
>>17636196
The fork with that feature is
https://github.com/txgio/orikaisama

Personally I just make the card manually when necessary.
>>
>>17636204
hemu ora efu

kana are not difficult to learn, there's no reason not to master them.
>>
>>17636204
he mu o ra e fu
>>
>>17636229
I'm a lazy cunt though and the cards I make look like ass, even compared to what Rikaisama generates.
Thanks.
>>
I envy people who have learnt Japanese. I can't even learn English. I have been at it for twenty years and I still come across a cromulent word I didn't know before every other day. This week it was "elation" and "kerfuffle".
>>
>>17636359
I was about to say your english was fine but "elation" is a very common word. "kerfuffle" is not that common anymore but any native speaker with a basic education would recognize it.
>>
>>17636359

Native English speakers don't recognize every English word, nor is it a realistic goal to aim for with any language.
>>
>>17636359
Even assuming "fluency" meant "knowing every single word in the language" then English would probably be one of the most difficult languages to learn because of the massive total amount of words it has in its vocabulary.
>>
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Reminder.

Same goes for Rikaidrones.
>>
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>>17636461
>that blocky font
>>
>>17636493
I can read it just fine. It's not particularly pretty but it's nowhere near bad enough to be unreadable.
>>
>>17636461
They're archaic sina runes anyways, get on with the time くそじじ
>>
Sup guys. Just ported my japanese app to iPhone. Here's five free codes if people want to try it out.

https://pastebin.com/J1e4ZFuK
>>
>>17636367
I think "kerfuffle" has a bit of an onomatopoeic aspect to it, so with a little context you can easily figure out what it means. The same goes for a lot of Japanese onomatopoeia, even metaphorical or indirect ones.
>>
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http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-to-use-a-japanese-textbook/
>Skip the vocabulary lists; a list of words out of context (outside of a sentence) is nearly useless to you. Go straight for the dialogues and example sentences. Copy those into your SRS. If you work efficiently, you can mine a typical textbook in its entirety, over like 3 – 4 hours of actual working time, perhaps more, perhaps less.

Has anyone actually done this? Did you have any success with it or was it just a waste of time?

I'm past the point where there would be any point in me doing this with Genki or Tae Kim's guide, but I was thinking of doing if for the HJGP. It would be a gargantuan undertaking to mine however many thousand example sentences are probably in that book though so if it's pointless then it would amount to a massive waste of time.
>>
>>17636662
I skipped the list entirely. There's no point in SRSing anything from a textbook.
>>
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Why do the Japanese need Kanji when they can communicate verbally just fine?
>>
>>17636671
Why does any written language exist when we can just communicate verbally? Seems a little pointless.
>>
>>17636687
The point is they could just exclusively use Kana instead
>>
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>>17636662
>It would be a gargantuan undertaking to mine however many thousand example sentences are probably in that book though so if it's pointless then it would amount to a massive waste of time.

If you're using modern OCR the accuracy will be good enough that you just have to check it for mistakes on each sentence. If you're doing this one "card" at a time, it won't be too much work on a day to day basis, but it'll still take a while since there's so many example sentences in HJGP.

1) Download Tesseract 4 and extract it somewhere under your user directory. (your documents, desktop, etc)

https://github.com/tesseract-ocr/tesseract/wiki/4.0-with-LSTM

"zip file with cppan generated .dll and .exe files"

2) Install Imagemagick. Use the installer.

http://www.imagemagick.org/script/download.php

ImageMagick-7.0.7-2-Q16-x64-dll.exe

3) Install ShareX.

4) What we're going to do is add extra hotkeys to ShareX that run a program that invokes imagemagick on a screenshot, sends it to tesseract, and copies tesseract's output to the clipboard. ShareX can't run shell scripts, so you'll have to use a separate program to invoke those programs. Here's mine:

https://a.safe.moe/JY7Ew.zip

My hotkey in ShareX is configured something like picture related. I have separate hotkeys for vertical and horizontal text. If you're OCRing HJGP in particular you're going to want two horizontal hotkeys, one that prioritizes English only and one that prioritizes Japanese over English, by giving ocr.exe different scripts.
>>
>>17636706
The lack of spaces makes it awkward to read.

With speech, you get audible cues as to which words are being used and where words end and begin in the form of intonation and so on. Even homophones are distinguished in speech via different pitch accents (there's a dorama called Trick where this becomes an important plot point in one of the episodes). Kanji performs these functions in writing.
>>
>>17636731
>dorama
What's that?
>>
>>17636706
anDweCouLdjUstWriTeeNglIshLikEthIsaNdstIllGetTheMesSagEacRosSevEnifItbeComEsaHugEpaIntoReaD

You can much easier understand from context in spoken form when there's tone of voice and the pitch accent, neither of which exists in text.
>>
>>17636737
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_television_drama

>Japanese television drama (テレビドラマ terebi dorama, television drama), also called dorama (ドラマ), are television programs that are a staple of Japanese television and are broadcast daily.
>>
>>17636741
Why did you insert a random Japanese word into your English post?
>>
>>17636706

But Japanese would be even harder if it was kana-only, only beginners think otherwise.
>>
>>17636709
Thanks for the advice, but it looks like that ShareX program is only available on Windows, so I'm not able to use it.
>>
>>17636745
Why do you say "anime" instead of "cartoon"?
>>
>>17636755
If you're on a unix-like OS you can bypass most of the complexity there, including the .exe in the safe.moe link. Look up how to make a global hotkey that takes a screenshot on your OS. You'll still want config.txt though (tesseract 4 will insert spaces, invent characters, and drop lines without it), and ocr.txt as a basis for your script.
>>
>>17636763
Anime is a shortening of "animation", and is pronounced as such. You don't say アニメ when you read "anime", you say ænime or ɛʌnime.

"Dorama" is insane. It's not an English word. You don't say "bideo geemu" or "bijuaru noberu". Why would you say "dorama"? If you wanted to use the Japanese word with some kind of sincerity you would have written ドラマ. "Dorama" isn't English, and there's nothing more especially Japanese about dramas than there is about anything else.

You're not loaning a word from Japanese into English, you're just spelling an English word the way it's pronounced in Japanese, with English text, not Japanese text. It's toxic exoticism. It's systematically responsible for Japanese live action television not being taken seriously among critics abroad.
>>
>>17636229
>rikai-kun
>rikai-sama
>orikai-sama
Where does it go from here?
>>
>>17636781
Kisama
>>
>>17636731
>>17636740
>remove Kanji
>add space
Do I deserve a nobel prize for this groundbreaking suggestion?
>>
>>17636781
rikai-chama
>>
>>17636774
>Anime is a shortening of "animation", and is pronounced as such. You don't say アニメ when you read "anime", you say ænime or ɛʌnime.
What about "manga" and "comics" then?

>If you wanted to use the Japanese word with some kind of sincerity you would have written ドラマ.
Romaji is a valid writing system for Japanese, even if it's seldom actually used. I can't be fucked with switching my keyboard for the sake of typing one word. Stop being a sperg.

>You're not loaning a word from Japanese into English, you're just spelling an English word the way it's pronounced in Japanese
"dorama" does not translate to "drama", so no I'm not.

>It's toxic exoticism. It's systematically responsible for Japanese live action television not being taken seriously among critics abroad.
You can't be serious...
>>
りかい殿
りかい侯
りかい公
りかいの君
りかい陛下
>>
>>17636797
theres no reason to get rid of kanji and using kana only would not only lead to confusion in a lot of things but your eyes then have to cover way more real estate to take in the same amount of information
>>
>>17636774
>It's systematically responsible for Japanese live action television not being taken seriously among critics abroad
???????????
>>
>>17636797
It's too late for that. Over a thousand years of Japanese literature and written documents would become unreadable by the next generation of Japanese were kanji to be eliminated now.
>>
>>17636746
What if they used spaces like normal peoples?
>>
>>17636830
Good.
>>
>>17636808
>What about "manga" and "comics" then?
"Manga" is a loan word. It's pronounced on the basis of English pronunciation, and has a meaning different than what マンガ means in Japanese. Manga also doesn't literally mean the same thing as "comic". Manga is just another one of the bajillion words English has for art panel stories, some of which, like comic, are loans from other languages the same way as "manga" is.

>Romaji is a valid writing system for Japanese
Do you see people writing novels in Romaji?

>"dorama" does not translate to "drama"
Yes, it does, actually. 1:1. "Drama" translates exactly to ドラマ. ドラマ translates exactly to "drama". By your own admission that you wrote a Japanese word in "romaji", "dorama", i.e. ドラマ, is the same thing as "drama".

>You can't be serious...
Go look for reviews of dubbed Japanese dramas on western television criticism outlets.
>>
>>17636827
welcome to the harsh world of reality where your opinions have consequences

exoticism is evil
>>
>>17636831
? spaces are used in kana only text
>>
>>17636832
no, not good.

besides, there are many other reasons to retain kanji, such as differentiating between words that sound the same, conserving space, overall swag, etc.

like it or not, stuff gets established in society and it's generally not easy to make drastic changes. if it were, then we could all switch to speaking Esperanto as a more logical language, but we don't.
>>
>>17636831

They already do that in old games for example, and such text is far more annoying to read than text with kanji.

I know having to deal with them is rough at first, but you'll come to appreciate their existence eventually.
>>
>>17636865
this too. kanji anchors the text and gives it structure. kana only might seem simpler at first glance, but it's more taxing to read.
>>
>>17636833
>"Manga" is a loan word.
How convenient.

>Yes, it does
Learn English.

>Do you see people writing novels in Romaji?
Do you see me writing a novel?

>Go look for reviews of dubbed Japanese dramas on western television criticism outlets.
So me writing dorama in romaji instead of katakana is single-handedly responsible for Western critics not being interested in Japanese TV shows, the same way that they aren't interested in Chinese, Indian, Russian, Egyptian and Brazillian TV shows?

dorama
>>
>>17636879
>How convenient.
When the truth is convenient for me and not you, that means you're doing something wrong.

>Learn English.
I know more about English than you even realize is possible to know.

>Do you see me writing a novel?
This isn't about you. This is about the creators of Japanese media.

>So me writing dorama in romaji instead of katakana is single-handedly responsible for Western critics not being interested in Japanese TV shows,
You forgot the part where you inserted a random Japanese word into an English post for the purpose of emphasizing the fact that it's an exotic thing, valued for being exotic. The disdainful cultural alienation that Japanese media is analyzed from (lol Japan is making such perverted games! etc.) is nothing but bad for Japanese creators that try to bring their works west, because the media can't be marketed on its own merits. "Dorama" perpetuates one small part of this.

>the same way that they aren't interested in Chinese, Indian, Russian, Egyptian and Brazillian TV shows?
The ones that actually get brought over have lasting success inversely proportional to how exotic they were perceived. Look at the western version of Macross, which was seen as so unexotic at the time that the localization production company forgot they didn't own the rights to it.
>>
>>17636897
His use the word "dorama" is correct because he is a native English speakers and natives don't make mistakes.
>>
things i enjoy: doramas and baldr sky dive
>>
>>17636671
What's the point of the current complicated English spelling when a phonetic one can be devised? Oh, you don't want that? The current system works just fine for all but the retards? Figures.
>>
>>17637044
but see english is the official language of the world
>>
>>17637059
The fact that it is is so stupid. It should have been a proper Indo-European language with case and gender on all nominals.
>>
This language is completely sublime. Hearing it spoken is so comfy and it looks beautiful written. I'm not sure why, but I just started to feel so this week after studying for the last four months. Does anyone else feel the same?
>>
>>17637093
Nah, it's overly complicated, relies too heavily on Chinese characters for specific uses, and tries too hard to compensate for non native words through imitation rather than direct consumption.
>>
>>17637093
Nah, sorry. It's always felt very utilitarian to me, and yet its inherent vagueness and context-dependence works against that purpose, creating an odd tension. I think English is far more beautiful.
>>
>>17637044
Joke's on you, English used to be phonetic.

>Oh, you don't want that?
Says who exactly? I'd be down for that. A shitton of languages could use some modernization, English included.

>The current system works just fine for all but the retards?
I fail to see how making a language considerably harder to learn for the sake of tradition and customs benefits anyone in any way, especially in the era of globalization. Of course I like Japanese in its current state as well as its history, but from a technical standpoint Japanese is dumb as shit
>>
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>>17637106
>it's overly complicated
Now who would ever say that.
>>
>>17636948
He didn't say anything about correctness, dumbass.
>>
>>17636948
Oh and
>he is a native English speakers
>>
>>17637125
>I fail to see how making a language considerably harder to learn
False premise. The only thing kanji makes harder is avoiding bad learning material like RTK. There's nothing harder about learning words written in kanji than learning words written in phonetic script. In fact, once you get outside of the most common 500 or so 大和言葉, kanji make words much much easier to learn due to extensive homophony, especially with しょう, せい, かん, etc sounds.
>>
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>>17637130
GOOD LUCK REMEMBERING THE CORRECT WORDS WITH THE PROPER SOCIAL CONTEXT MOTHERFUCKER HA HA HA HAAAA!!!
>>
>>17637125

It makes the language harder to learn but a hundred times easier to actually use and read you dummy. As has been said kana-only text with spaces already exists, and it fucking sucks.
>>
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>>17637146
Hot take: it makes the language easier to learn because you learn languages by reading and it makes reading so much easier.
>>
>>17637146
Do native speakers think it sucks though?
>>
>>17637164
Not since computers obsoleted regular handwriting.
>>
>>17637143
the problem is thinking of it as a flowchart where you have to pick something and make decisions

people do whats in that chart unconsciously every second of every day with the english language
>>
>>17637160
I'll take your hot shit take and throw it right back in your face and remind you that language written in books tends to be written in a way to be easily conveyed through literature and doesn't necessarily convey how it is used in actual conversation. Take fucking keigo for example >>17637143 >>17637130 and don't say that you'll never need to learn it because it only comes up in certain situations because it basically shuts you out from those specific situations if you didn't learn it. You will only actually get better at a language by repetition and use and not just reading it from a book.
>>
>>17637160

Well, it makes the initial hurdle steeper is what I mean. Once you're past that it makes it easier for certain.

>>17637164

It makes text more difficult and annoying to read which is why nobody does it even though they 100% could if they wanted to. It's not really a matter of nativity, it's just a choice between better readability and worse readability.
>>
>>17637053
The commenter is saddened by the notes posted at Ouji Station (Tokyo Metro) and attached to the tweet.
The two handwritten notes are by girls, addressed to their mom:
>How are you, mom? Please call!
The printed notice is by the station master, and it reads:
>For the sake of the station building, notices cannot be pasted without a permit. Since many people use the station, we can't just accept one customer's request. However, feeling for these girls, we have hesitated to remove the notes. We will be removing them soon. May they get in touch.


>躊躇
Saved.
>>
>>17637182
Reading it from a book is exactly that repetition. It's true that you need multiple sources of input, but input is the only thing that actually causes acquisition to take place, and reading is the easiest/most convenient one. There are very few people in the modern age who have become fluent in a foreign language without forced life-changing immersion (e.g. moving to sub-asian country X and having to live daily life there, with almost no speakers of your native language there) or extensive reading.
>>
>>17637125
English can never be phonetic again, unless we force every single dialect in the anglosphere to use their own unique spellings. You would probably have to switch to that funny alphabet they use in pronunciation guides as well, in order to capture all the sounds that are merged or unrepresented in English spelling.
>>
>>17637201
Or you could just update it to the point where American and British English split apart, in the late 1600s. English spelling goes much much further into the past than that.
>>
>>17637180
Except that English doesn't have a separate way of speaking to indicate politeness past using "sir or madam" and remembering to include please, thank you, or I'm sorry. It would be the equivalent of using English from the past century in present day conversation "Sire wil'st thou prefer an addition portion of frittered potatoe to accompany thine hammedburger?"
>>
>>17636781
Yomichan
>>
>>17637146
>>17637160
i know the thing about ideograms conveying an idea "faster" than words but if you mix letters in an english word you still can read it conclusion words works as ideograms themselves, and you can read most of them at a younger age and can practice with them longer, even technical difficult word can be apprehended quite easily
>>
>>17637208
but it does youre just not even aware of it thats how unconscious it really is

a waitress doesnt ask you something like "what do you want" they ask you something like "what would you like to order"
>>
>>17637208
My humble appreciation for your post extends no further than the fury behind the tips of my fingers. It does not suit the worldly situation to perpetuate such vile lore that the English language has no permanent formal registers; rather, it begets the difference between formality conventions that are codified, and those that have been lain by the wayside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King's_English

>The King's English is less like a dictionary than Modern English Usage; it consists of longer articles on more general topics such as vocabulary, syntax and punctuation, and draws heavily on examples from many sources throughout. One of its sections is a systematic description of the appropriate uses of shall and will.
>>
Stop procastrinating with bullshit and start studying, the language isn't gonna change anywhere no matter how much you whine about it.

You either gotta deal with how it is in its current state or quit.
>>
>>17637208
Even English has registers, it's just that the borders are murkier and the difference is more along vocabulary and pronunciation-oriented, and less about grammar. You won't talk to the customer out front the same way you would talk to your coworker or to your boss in the back office.
For grammar-oriented differences outside Japanese, consider the way a lot of European languages use second person plural to refer to individuals when they're distant or higher in status.
>>
>>17637225
you can also just procrastinate and whine for a while and then begrudgingly do your flashcards :^) thats the great thing about life its all one big grey area where you dont have to be limited to binary choices unless you choose to be
>>
>>17637217
Yes there are ways to indicate politeness and formality with English but it doesn't take an entirely different vocabulary to do so, let alone two or more of them depending on the situation.
>>17637219
>My humble appreciation for your poſt extendſ no further than the fury behind the tipſ of my fingerſ. It doeſ not ſuit the worldly ſituation to perpetuate ſuch vile lore that the Engliſh language haſ no permanent formal regiſterſ; rather, it begetſ the difference between formality conventionſ that are codified, and those that have been lain by the wayſide.
Fixed for accuracy.
>>
>>17637240
The long s was not used at the ends of words.
>>
>>17637246
And people don't speak like that on a daily basis unless to prove a point of how obtuse and archaic something is, except in Japan where knowing keigo is an absolute necessity.
>>
>>17637250
People speak like that in court all the time, and the simplified formal speech used by customer service workers is genetically related.
>>
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>>17637254
don't forget about announcements
>>
>>17637225
I guess calling other anons out on their studying habits is that much more productive!
>>
>>17637254
The courtroom is probably the last place you'll find anywhere near that level of speaking, now imagine if you had a letter from Amazon on the same level because your package arrived late.
>>
>>17637267
https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2016

MR. KIMBERLY: The short answer, Your Honor,
is no. There are distinctions to be made in -- in the
context of the public-trial right, for example. Those
distinctions play out as -- at the threshold question
whether the public-trial right, in fact, has been
violated.
>>
>>17637267
An example of a company user email:

>Hey there!

>We’ve registered changes to your Unity news settings.

>Should you want to change your preferences at any time, or if your settings have been altered in error, just visit our E-mail Preference Page.

>Should you want to ...

The conditional subjunctive is basically one of the English "keigo" things.
>>
>>17637274
Like I said, the last place where you will find that kind of language because there are very real consequences for stating something incorrectly, however imagine using the same kind of language on a daily basis for something as mundane as a late package.
https://blog.gaijinpot.com/keigo/
>>
>普通通り
>>
im confused on what this person is trying to say. girl tries to give him a handkerchief and he says
貧乏人のくせにいっちょまえにハンカチは持ってんだな。悪いな、俺は人から施しは受けね一主義。それが貧乏人なら特にな
particularly the いっちょまえに
is it "you try to fit in with society by carrying a handkerchief because you're poor... my number one rule is not to accept charity from other people. especially from poor people"
>>
>>17637281
I think you didn't notice the formal register there.

>Your Honor
>excessive use of the passive for the sake of politeness
>"whether" instead of "if", "about", or "of"
>inserting adverbial conjunctions mid-sentence (, in fact,)
>>
>>17637280
It still uses words and phrases that would be considered part of everyday conversation to convey their meaning though, the same context of how Japanese polite language would be on the same level as King's Court English.
>>
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I am following the Anki guide and I'm currently doing the default 20 new words a day. However, I feel like the 20 new words a day is a bit too fast-paced, and the new vocabulary doesn't sit too well... Should I dedicate a day a week only for reviewing / revision?

Also, I only use "Again" and "Good" without pressing "Easy", even on painfully easy words. Does this make any real difference?

>>17630464
This is one thing holding me back. I'm utter shit at listening, not only Japanese, but even English and Arabic.
Whenever I'm in a casual conversation, I have to act like deaf and ask again, because my listening skills are so shit I cannot turn them into sentences in my mind fast enough.
On the other hand, reading written languages feels easier. Getting a gist of what is written in Japanese is much easier than listening.
>>
>>17637297
I think you underestimate how normal keigo is. Keigo phrases aren't magic, they're basically glorified euphemisms. In English you you replace short words with longer ones and use dead grammar like the conditional subjunctive. In Japanese you replace short words with longer ones and use dead grammar like the conditional 仮定形.
>>
>>17637292
Again it is necessary because the courtroom deals in facts alone and there is a need to use bleeding edge context in every single word or phrase because there can't be a single hint of doubt or suspicion in the words that are spoken and you won't find the same kind of need outside of some science journals. The difference is that keigo is used in almost all facets of conversation between a difference in authority or respect in Japanese culture, and being that it is Japanese culture there are a shitton of them.
>>
>>17637313
Formal English is used in exactly the same places as Keigo is used in Japanese.
>>
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>>17637303
>Arabic
Delete yourself please.
>>
>>17637312
>dead grammar like the conditional 仮定形
I'm not part of this conversation at all and couldn't care any less about it than I already do, but just out of curiosity I'd like to know what you meant by this.
>>
>>17637327
Using ~ば conditionals (or other conditionals based on the 仮定形) where they're technically logically inappropriate, where ~たら or ~と conditionals would be better.
>>
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Fingolia rules
>>
What can I use instead of:

{{#textnotes}}
<hr>
{{/{textnotes}}

Anybody knows? (It's supposed to insert the black line only if the field isn't empty)
>>
>>17637338
Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that using the ~ば conditional for those kinds of conditions is "dead", not ~ば itself for the conditions it currently logically fits well.

>>17637357
No idea but you might be able to

<hr
{{#textnotes}}
<!-- markup that makes the hr disappear>
{{/textnotes}}
>
>>
>>17637357
That should work. Either the fields aren't really empty (they have to be a 100% blank string, IIRC) or something in the CSS is preventing the <hr> from rendering.
>>
>>17637371
What happens is it bugs out completely and won't accept this at all.
>>
>>17637378
Did you copy paste it? You have a stray { in the example in your post.
>>
>>17637385
I'm blind. Thanks for that.
>>
>>17637360
Okay. ~たら would also fall under the umbrella of "conditionals based on the 仮定形" so you should be careful with that too.
>>
>>17637393
Grammar people treat たら like its own thing these days rather than the 仮定形 of something. It's like calling "went" a form of "wend" instead of "go". Like, it's technically right in terms of etymology, but that's not how people think about it.
>>
>>17637291
Despite being poor you hold out a handkerchief to an actual member of society like me?
>>
>>17637408
that makes more sense, thanks
I confuse くせに with せいで
>>
>>17637406
>Grammar people
Who? What if I consider myself a grammar person? Why do you get to speak for how people think about things and I don't?
You can't just make a claim like "that's not how people think about it" and expect people to accept it without any kind of proof.
I just googled たらとは and right at the top of the page it says 「た」の仮定形。た助動。
I understand that you're tying to save face and have no desire to argue with you over something so trivial, but come on. Why is it so important to you to always have to have the last say and be right about everything? At least back up claims with proofs.
>>
>>17637425
I, too, know how to use online dictionaries. A dictionary will also tell you that "went" comes from "went" if it goes any further than "past tense of go".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/went

>Originally the past tense of wend.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/went

>old pt. of wend, used to replace missing form of go1

Finally:

>You can't just make a claim like "that's not how people think about it" and expect people to accept it without any kind of proof.

たら doesn't actually come from the 已然形, it comes from the 未然形. た was special in that the modern ~ば usage standardized on the 未然形 rather than the 已然形. Before standardizing on mostly the 已然形, both could be used, depending on the situation. This is why it ends in an a instead of an e.

In this conversation, I was using 仮定形 as the modernized name for the 已然形, not as "the form used in hypothetical statements".

I know that for a at least a short period of time, 仮定形 wasn't just a modern name for the 已然形. If I'm wrong here, this is where my mistake is, not in making shit up. I studied classical Japanese much more than I studied modern Japanese, so there's a good chance that I misunderstood how the modern terminology works.
>>
>>17637461
comes from "wend"*
>>
>>17637133
I am a native speakers, so that isn't a mistake.

I'm actually a prescriptivist. I just like to troll with the "natives can never be wrong" thing.
>>
>>17637472
Natives can be wrong but when enough of them think something's right it basically automatically is.

There's no such thing as language actually anyway so it's all sociopolotical semanticism in the throughbouts, amiwrite.
>>
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How long did it take you to read VNs without texthooker?
I have been playing with texthooker for a few months and while it feels like I'm not progressing while playing I have really progressed when I look at the beginning.
It's a bit frustrating but I guess I have to keep playing. I just with to be able to read without crutches. So what timeframe should I aim for?
2 years?
>>
>>17637510
Nobody's experience on this topic will be more valid than the Moog's:

https://curiouscat.me/Moogy/post/205509862
>Do you remember how many games in you stopped text hooking?
>Baldr Force was the first game I played without a text hook, I think it was my tenth?


>So what timeframe should I aim for? 2 years?
It's about how much Japanese you consume, not how much real time passes.
>>
Hello! I recently found this really nice rap/pop-song-with-really-fast-lyrics and I'd like to be able to sing along to it. The main thing I'd need for now is the chorus (it goes from 0:59 to 1:20 in the video down below), so if you have the spare time, could any of you please write the Romaji and maybe even the translation for me? If so, thank you very much!
Here's the link: https://youtu.be/mEmznINVGV8
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>>17637514
I see. So i should aim for around tenth game.
Thank you for quoting that post anon.
I have just finished 1 and another one so I'm just at the beginning, but I'll give my best!
>>
>>17637510

Just keep at it and take it a day at a time instead of thinking years ahead because too many factors play into that. Occasionally do as you have seemingly done and look back at how much you've improved, and draw your motivation from that direction instead.

It's a gradual process, but also one that slowly continues accelerating for as long as you keep at it.
>>
>>17637543
and dropped another one*
I think I should go to sleep already.
>>
>>17637475
>when enough of them think something's right it basically automatically is
Is it how it works in Burgerland? Here it's only right if the linguistic elites agree that it's right (i.e. a lot of shit that 90+% people say is still considered wrong).
>>
>>17637461
>A dictionary will also tell you that "went" comes from "went" if it goes any further than "past tense of go".
And what does that prove? Your original analogy doesn't even work, in my opinion. If you had said, "たら is the 仮定形 of た," and then I said, "No, it's actually the 未然形 of たり," then it would be a valid comparison, because we would both technically be correct but I would only be correct in the context of the classical language. In the modern language, たら is the 仮定形 of た. In the modern language, went is the past-tense of go.

>In this conversation, I was using 仮定形 as the modernized name for the 已然形, not as "the form used in hypothetical statements".
There's only one usage of the word 仮定形 that I'm aware of, and that's in reference to conjugation form number 5 out of 6 in modern Japanese, which comes between the 連体形 and the 命令形 in traditional ordering.

If you were to try to make the claim that "たら is not the 仮定形 of た," then you would be wrong, and that's all I'm pointing out. "Conditionals based on the 仮定形" would have to include both ~たら and なら, along with 仮定形+ば, because たら is the 仮定形 of ~た and なら is the 仮定形 of だ. The fact that ~たらば and ならば are still valid constructions proves this, because the conjunctive particle ば attaches to the 仮定形 of inflected words and never the 未然形 in modern Japanese.

We can talk about the difference between 未然形+ば and 已然形+ば in classical Japanese if you want, but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about before and I think you only brought it up to try to scare me away from replying.
>>
>>17637548
It's how English linguists treat it. We don't have faux-linguists running an academy dedicated to preventing English from adapting to modern needs, so we're not stuck with things that are ridiculous today like "I am become death" (grammatically correct at the time) and "for whom the bell tolls" (which, still correct, sounds much less natural than the "incorrect" alternative, "for who the bell tolls")
>>
>>17637548
but the elites of society regardless of country affiliation decide whats fact and whats fake and if theres resistance they just spend enough money to buy the ability to dictate the truth to the unwashed masses
>>
>>17637559
You obviously understand what I was trying to say and what the thing I actually said meant, so just say it without acting like I'm supposed to know everything that you know and take it for granted. Am I wrong about 仮定形 being a modernized name for the 已然形? This is obviously not an unsubstantiated belief, but it's actually technically wrong, say so. Get off your high horse.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/已然形

>已然形(いぜんけい)または仮定形(かていけい)とは
>>
>>17637561
>sounds much less natural
I agree.

Also, seems like a great way to only use nigger-speak in a few decades.
Have fun with that.
>>
>>17637579
>but it's actually technically wrong
but if it's actually technically wrong*
>>
>>17637582
AAVE was actually the high class dialect of southern US plantation owners before they decided to stop saying things like "ain't" and making their negatives agree to distance themselves from their ex-slaves after slavery reformation started.
>>
>>17637559
he wasn't making an analogy to the entire situation, he was making an analogy to your use of the etymology information in online dictionaries
>>
>>17637588
>Southerners devolved thanks to consorting with niggers
Nice.
>>
Can your IME produce 砕屑物 if you type "saisetubutu"? Mine apparently can't.
>>
>>17637599
The fuck is clastic?
>>
>>17637613
shit that comes outta volcanoes my ninja
>>
>>17636021
Whoa anon thanks for this.
>>
>>17637559
>In the modern language, たら is the 仮定形 of た. In the modern language, went is the past-tense of go.
If you're talking about generative linguistics instead of schoolhouse grammar, たら isn't a form of anything in the modern language. It has its own semantics and function, completely unrelated to how the 仮定形 works with normal verbs. However, true generative linguistics doesn't care that much about categories, so whether it's a 仮定形 or not would basically be information about how people "think" grammar works to a generative linguist, rather than how it really does.

It's only correct to call たら a 仮定形 in the capacity that it's 仮定的, not as a stem to which other conjugations are applied. In a way, it's strange that grammar teachers insist on calling it a 仮定形 in the context of regular conjugations, because 仮定形 is "supposed to" replace 已然形 universally, as the name 已然形 doesn't intuitively apply to how the "e" forms work anymore.

In たらば, it should be considered 未然形, not 已然形, and retains the nuance caused by choosing the 未然形 over the 已然形. The construction たらば is the only real excuse to call it the 仮定形, but classifying it the same way as the 仮定形 of normal verbs is intellectually dishonest. I don't think anybody can disagree with the notion that it's intellectually dishonest, even if they continue to call たら a 仮定形 for the sake of being logically reasonable to natives that aren't scholars.

Assuming that たら being a 仮定形 is 100% intellectually honest given the context of what the 仮定形 is for other verbs, all 未然形 should be 仮定形 as well, since it's still grammatical to say 死なば, even though it's uncanny. A similar issue exists with the 未然形 of normal verbs and the hortative, but I won't get into that.

No reason to start an intellectually dishonest argument with no benefit to anything other than your own ego.
>>
>>17632286
Just saw the first episode of Ao Haru Ride with Japanese subtitles. It's pretty easy to follow and it's good practice, if you're interested.
>>
>pennwisedom

grammarians pretending to be linguists, never again
>>
the penis is mightier than the sword
>>
>>17636709
can you make a video?
>>
>>17637676
Too lazy, sorry
>>
>>17636709
Have you ever tried running tesseract on japanese text? I don't think it's as reliable as you think it is. I tried it on a blu-ray subtitle file a few months ago and it could barely produce a single readable sentence out of hundreds of lines of background-free text.
>>
What do you think about watching an episode with Japanese subtitles and then rewatch it without subtitles of any kind? Good, bad?
>>
>>17637738
It's very bad with certain fonts, but it's fairly reasonable with clean text.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot. Tesseract 4 completely removes the "old", non-neural-network based character recognition engine, and you have to use the "best" training data from here to get the best results: https://github.com/tesseract-ocr/tessdata/tree/master/best

This "best" training data apparently has some problems with things other than actual character recognition, which is why the config.txt in the archive I posted earlier is so important, it disables the neural network being used for character position detection or something.

本来ならもうとっくに完成しているはず
なのですが、工事は未だに中断された
ままで、再開のめども立っていません。

from https://core6000.neocities.org/hjgp/entries/54.htm
>>
>>17637753
>config.txt
Change preserve_interword_spaces 0 to preserve_interword_spaces 1 for Japanese by the way, otherwise it fills the output with spaces.
>>
Best Japanese OCR software is probably FineReader but it's propietary so you'll have to buy/pirate it.
>>
>>17637756
Also only recent versions. I got an ancient version as a bonus with some hardware I bought and it was awful.
>>
>>17637750
i dont think it does much for you other than begin to memorize the episode itself which may or may not be useful
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>>17637750
depends what you want, reading prac or listening prac
with kanji subs, you're just cheating on listening prac
>>
>>17637753
Holy shit, any chance of using this to make a digital version of DoJG and HJGP?
>>
>>17637753
I uploaded a page of HJGP to https://ocr.space/ a while ago and it was pretty good (but not perfect). Not sure how it compares to Tesseract though it claims to be better.
>>
>>17637762
Go for it.
>>
>>17637762
KKLC's mnemonics would be good too. People still using RTK because it's easy to put mnemonics for it on flashcards.
>>
>>17637750
You should do it the other way round, so you can at least have a go at recognizing the words by sound alone.
>>
立つ = opposed to sitting
立てる = the action of standing up

is this right?
>>
Probably a retarded question, but
>そうですね……。わたくしは少々特殊な鬼でございますので、能力と言えるような能力は
>ただ強いて言うならば、真様のお世話をするために必要な知識と、主のおそばを離れても活動できるだけの力を与えられております
Am I right in assuming there's some kind of negation implied at the end of the first sentence?
>>
>>17637955
Negation? Of what?
>>
This is the first several pages from HJGP, OCR'd:

https://pastebin.com/raw/Lbjws1H5

I'm probably going to stop. It's mentally painful to do this.
>>
>>17637988
No example sentences by the way.
>>
>>17637856
I'm pretty sure tateru means to build.... sorry dude, i think you might be a dekinai
>>
>>17637972
I was thinking something like
>能力と言えるような能力はありません
because it's the only way I can see it connecting to the following sentence. Basically meaning "I can't talk about my ability" "but if I must say...".
But I might just be missing something much more obvious.
>>
>>17637988
>It's mentally painful to do this.
What do you mean?
You had to get rid of the mistakes? It requires you to select the language for each part manually?
>>
>>17637641
>>17637579
>Am I wrong about 仮定形 being a modernized name for the 已然形?
Yes, in this context. The auxiliary verb た derives from the classical auxiliary verb たり, but they are two separate words in two separate languages:

In classical Japanese, where the term 已然形 can be properly used, たり had a ラ変 conjugation:
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/139244/meaning/m0u/%E3%81%9F%E3%82%8A/
未然形: たら
連用形: たり
終止形: たり (later たる)
連体形: たる
已然形: たれ
命令形: たれ

This then evolved into the classical version of た, which was intermediate between たり and modern た:
http://kobun.weblio.jp/content/%E3%81%9F
未然形: たら
連用形: たり
終止形: た
連体形: た
已然形: たれ
命令形: x

And now in modern Japanese, where the term 仮定形 is used because the function of the form previously known as the 已然形 has completely changed, た has an irregular conjugation:
未然形: たろ
連用形: x
終止形: た
連体形: た
仮定形: たら
命令形: x

This modern conjugation that I refer to to show that たら is the 仮定形 of た is not "etymology information" as >>17637591 says but a guide to how the auxiliary verb conjugates in modern spoken Japanese:
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/132183/meaning/m1u/%E3%81%9F/
>[たろ|○|た|た|たら|○]
in just the same way that this guide to the conjugation of the auxiliary verb だ:
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/132198/meaning/m1u/%E3%81%A0/
>[だろ|だっ・で|だ|(な)|なら|○]
is a guide to the modern spoken conjugation of だ and not to its etymological origin, which would be split between である and なり.

The 仮定形 of the auxiliary verbs た and だ in modern Japanese are unique in that the particle ば is optional:
https://kotobank.jp/word/%E3%81%9F-

556028#E5.A4.A7.E8.BE.9E.E6.9E.97.20.E7.AC.AC.E4.B8.89.E7.89.88
>仮定形「たら」は、接続助詞「ば」を伴わないで、それだけでも用いられる。
https://kotobank.jp/word/%E3%81%A0-

556047#E5.A4.A7.E8.BE.9E.E6.9E.97.20.E7.AC.AC.E4.B8.89.E7.89.88
>仮定形「なら」は、接続助詞「ば」を伴わないでそれだけで用いられることがある。

>>17637641
>classifying it the same way as the 仮定形 of normal verbs is intellectually dishonest
I disagree. And if it's intellectually dishonest then almost all J-J dictionaries are intellectually dishonest.
Let's examine the definition of the word 仮定形:
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/43088/meaning/m0u/%E4%BB%AE%E5%AE%9A%E5%BD%A2/

>口語の活用形の一。用言、助動詞の第五活用形。接続助詞「ば」を伴って順接仮定の条件を示す。「行けば」「書けば」などの「行け」「書け」の類。
One of the conjugation forms of spoken language. Conjugation form #5 for inflected words and auxiliary verbs. Shows a resultative hypothetical condition when accompanied by the conjunctive particle ば. For example the 行け of 行けば or the 書け of 書けば.

Modern た is an auxiliary verb used in the spoken language. The form of た that ば attaches to is たら, and XたらばY expresses a "resultative hypothetical condition," i.e., given a hypothetical condition X, Y will subsequently result. So far, the form たら matches this definition.

>文語の已然形が、その機能を変えて、主として仮定表現に用いられるようになったところからついた名称。文語では、この働きは未然形が有する。
Named for the way the 已然形 of the literary language came to be used mostly in hypothetical expressions through a change in function. In the literary language, this function is performed by the 未然形.

In the literary language the 未然形 of the classical version of た (see the intermediate conjugation explained above) would be used to perform the function of the 仮定形 of modern た. This remains consistent with everything I've written so far.

>仮定形 is "supposed to" replace 已然形 universally
That's begging the question: Who says it's supposed to?
>>
>>17637579
>>17638103

>Assuming that たら being a 仮定形 is 100% intellectually honest given the context of what the 仮定形 is for other verbs, all 未然形 should be 仮定形 as well
I don't think that's true either.
The meaning of 行けば in modern Japanese corresponds to 行かば in classical Japanese.
The meaning of 行けば in classical Japanese does not have a direct equivalent in modern Japanese. It would be translated to something like 行ったので, 行ったからには or in certain contexts 行くと (and by your own admission ~と has a different meaning than ~ば). If you decide to use 行かば instead of 行けば in the modern day, you are still expressing the same meaning, but you are now using a literary form of the language rather than the spoken form. The term 仮定形 as defined in the dictionary above does not apply to the literary language; in that case its function is performed by the 未然形. 行か is the 未然形.

According to my classical Japanese textbook, the shift where the function of 行かば was transferred to 行けば and the original function of 行けば was lost began in the Muromachi period, specifically.

Also:
>If you're talking about generative linguistics instead of schoolhouse grammar
I'm not talking about any kind of linguistics. I'm talking about Japanese. This is the Japanese thread. I do Japanese grammar in Japanese.

But none of this should require any explaining. The only point I was making in the beginning is that たら is the 仮定形 of た and so strictly speaking "conditionals based on the 仮定形" should include the conditional ~たら. The goo.jp link above that lists たら as the 仮定形 of た should be proficient to prove this. Arguing that the ~たら conditional is actually a conditional based on the 未然形 would be the equivalent of saying went is actually the past-tense of wend, because it would have to operate on the assumption that classical grammatical rules supercede modern grammatical rules. You are the one making the vain appeal to etymology to try to prove your point, not me.
>>
>>17638102
Waiting for the OCR to complete each time and removing newlines. Also everything other than the main full sentences (the headers, etc) had to be mostly manually written.
>>
>>17638061
The は particle here translates pretty well to the English "as for". Like, "As for the ability which I can call an ability, just to say it forcedly, ..." (not a good translation stylistically, but literal enough).
>>
>>17638061
Xと言えるようなX
is a pretty common form that means what
>>17638113
said.
>>
>>17638103
>>17638107

I'm >>17637312 and >>17637338 .

"or other conditionals based on the 仮定形" doesn't mean conditionals that are literally a 仮定形 form. It means conditionals that use the 仮定形 as their basis. If the conditional is the 仮定形 alone then it's not based on the 仮定形, it's just the 仮定形, dude. I'm giving you the full benefit of the doubt, it's totally legit to misunderstand "based on X" because it's used both ways, but I never thought ~たら wasn't a 仮定形. I just didn't mentally include it in "based on 仮定形" because it's literally a 仮定形. Arithmetic isn't based on arithmetic, it's just arithmetic, instead algebra is based on arithmetic.

You got into a really autistic argument with multiple people about something that doesn't matter at all.

Not only that, but grammar isn't reality, dude. It's an abstraction. You just wrote a two post long argument about labels invented by idiots that didn't know anything about how the brain handles language on an anonymous forum. I'm not saying that because I hate the labels they chose, I'm saying that because basically all "grammar" for every language is like that. I want to tell you to take a linguistics 101 class because you somehow think that linguistics has nothing to do with grammar, but instead, I'm going to tell you something really funny.

You could have done something productive like write a post about how western civilians fuck up Japanese grammatical jargon (which is legitimately a problem, jargon means people can talk about stuff, which makes abstractions like grammar useful), but instead you decided to fight over trivial bullshit.
>>
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>出来ない
>>
>>17638107
>The term 仮定形 as defined in the dictionary above does not apply to the literary language; in that case its function is performed by the 未然形. 行か is the 未然形.
Could have made >>17637425 or >>17637559 consist entirely of this line and avoided however much time you spent writing everything since then, as well as not made yourself look like you're a socially retarded argumentative autist.
>>
>>17638113
>>17638131
I see, thanks. I think the reason I didn't pick up on it is that "the ability which I can call an ability" sounds off enough I assumed it had to have some more complex meaning, and fucked myself over in the process.
>>
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>>17638039
馬鹿
>>
>>17638151
So give me an example of a conditional "based on" the 仮定形 that isn't 仮定形+ば or ~たら or ~なら, then. If you can't, then "other conditionals based on the 仮定形" would be an empty category so it's confusing what you could possibly be referring to.

Also, it's my time, not yours. How I decide to use it is my own, and I enjoy in-depth conversations about grammar like this because I'm an autist like you say and Japanese grammar is one of the main objects of my autism. I consider it leisure time well spent.

>but grammar isn't reality, dude. It's an abstraction
And people argue over abstractions all the time. I think it's fun. And at least I back up my statements with facts instead of just talking down to everyone who disagrees with me and expecting people to kowtow to my non-existent authority.
>>
>>17638220
>So give me an example of a conditional "based on" the 仮定形 that isn't 仮定形+ば or ~たら or ~なら, then.
Compound conditions that start with 仮定形+ば but where the actual logical condition being expressed isn't the one that ば attaches to, like ばよかったら.
>>
>>17638160
I made this image at 6 months or so of learning Japanese feeling despair at the thought of struggling like I was forever, but now at 3.5-ish years I don't struggle with easy stuff at all, so I guess if I were the front I would say "like 2-3 years"
>>
>>17638192
just give it a minute, here that dude comes back with his "epically trolled!" response
>>
>>17638109
Post the raw output in a pastebin, those things you mention can be all be fixed with a script and regex.
>>
What's the deal with 喰う? Why is there a kanji like that? Why not just 食う? Same meaning, same reading, so why?
>>
>>17638392
There were much worse problems than that, but they were more rare.

I might go the full out unedited route, I don't know.
>>
>>17638482
Oh, and the problems included missing words at the ends of lines because lol heuristics
>>
>>17638418
Google and you will find a nice answer on Stack Overflow.
>>
>>17638418
Same meaning, different sense.
>>
I followed the advice about J-J dictionaries and have now been chain reading definition after definition on weblio for hours instead of the manga I was supposed to be reading.
>>
>>17638566
Boring.
>>
I try to ctrl+f キングダム in the cornucopia of resources and it just takes me to the bottom of the page with 2 hits. Is there some secret next page button or something?
>>
>>17638290
That doesn't make any sense in the context of your original post and in general. That's not a "compound conditional" (I've never even heard of such a thing) it's just a conditional nested inside another conditional (which is strange).

http://nana-music.com/sounds/013f1ade/
>短いので暇があればよかったら聴いてみてください
It's short, so if you've got the time [and] if it's alright [with you] please try giving it a listen.

You could rewrite it with a comma between あれば and よかったら and the meaning wouldn't change at all, to my ears.
>短いので暇があれば、よかったら聴いてみてください
(But I'm not even sure if this is natural-sounding or written by a native, there's very few search results for "ばよかったら" and most of them sound like they're written by gaijin to me, but I could be wrong.)

What makes this ~ばよかったら a "compound" conditional that deserves to be treated apart from ~ば and ~たら in their individual meanings?

Is it this?
>where the actual logical condition being expressed isn't the one that ば attaches to
So 暇がある isn't the "actual logical condition" being expressed, but 良い is? Then how does 暇がある fit into the sentence?

have free time + it's alright = please listen
don't have free time + it's alright = it's okay not to listen
have free time + it's not alright = it's okay not to listen
don't have free time + it's not alright = it's okay not to listen

The "have free time" condition is still required for the subsequent result to happen, so I would say it qualifies as an "actual logical condition" but you might have some definition of one of those words that I don't.

And in the event that you decide to say that this one particular instance of ~ばよかったら is not actually a compound conditional but there are other instances out there which are, please give me an example. The burden of proof is on you.

And, how does it fit into your original point that ~ば conditionals and other conditionals based on the 仮定形 in certain contexts are keigo? In what situation could you use ~ば+(用言の連用形)+たら (supposedly a compound conditional based on the 仮定形) to express something in keigo where, in your words ~たら or ~と conditionals would be better? In non-keigo, should the example above have been expressed 暇があったら聞いてみてください? Because that means something completely different.

If your original point had been worded along the lines of "たらば and ならば sound more stiff and formal than たら and なら" then I would have had no issue with it, but that's not what you said. So again I'm going to suggest that you're just making stuff up to save face because you hate admitting that you're wrong and/or baiting me because you know I'll bite.

But I can't argue with you if you use terms that only you know the definitions to so please define your terms concretely for me if you want this to continue.
It'll be Japanese grammar jargon vs. linguistics 302 grammar jargon and neither of us will get anywhere but it might be fun.
>>
>>17638567
Well, it's studying. Doesn't have to be fun, just effective.
>>
>>17638569
Probably a bug or something. You can probably find links from the source code if it has them
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>>17638570
ばよかったら was a terrible example and I have no idea why I posted it. Here are some that I was actually thinking about when I posted about compound conditionals already. It's the sort that still makes sense when you insert a 、, not the sort that acts as a true compound like たらば・ならば.

>危険だということを生徒達に周知してもらえれば、もしかしたら被害は抑えられるかもしれない。
>今の僕の位置からアゼルを攻撃すれば、もしかしたら。

In situations like these, 口語 would use different wording to avoid the ば altogether, rather than choosing a wording that uses it and adding もしかしたら to change the nature of the condition. The first one uses both もしかしたら and かもしれない not because they serve slightly different attitudes of possibility, but because もしかしたら changes how ば relates to the conclusion of the condition.

This example uses よかったら but it doesn't change the semantics much and doesn't have a non-口語 flavor to it.

>「スミちゃんが一緒にお茶でもって。忙しくなければ、よかったらどうかな」

>So again I'm going to suggest that you're just making stuff up to save face because you hate admitting that you're wrong and/or baiting me because you know I'll bite.

Actually I just want to see how far I can go from mainstream Japanese grammar and still dig myself out of the hole made by doing so.
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>>17638570
>>17638659
I'm going to bed, so pretend this is my next response to whatever you post. I sketched out several possible responses depending on what problems you find in >>17638659, but I won't get to your next post before falling asleep if it takes as long as the last few, so I decided to flesh out this one and post it anyway because it lets me go further away from Japanese grammar. When I wake up I'll still read whatever you post, I'm just going to be asleep when you post it.

ば is normally used with conditions where ば is a sufficient condition for the following statement. By inserting もしかしたら, the condition itself is doubted, not just the result. "Perhaps, if I X, Y (as opposed to Y not happening, because I only care about Y, like "Maybe if I eat fruit I'll stop being sick")" rather than "If I X, Y might happen (as opposed to something else, because I care about X, like "If I eat fruit I might get fat")". With doubtworthy conditions like the former, 口語 usually uses なら or たら on the condition because they have more modal flexibility about the condition itself.

It has to do with grammatical modality, but I'm not 100% certain whether different 口語 dialects treat the different conditions with the same grammatical modalities, so I can't give an exact explanation.

If you're interested in how western conception of modality itself might relate to Japanese, common moods associated with conditions are almost all the Epistemic ones, in addition to the Gnomic, Precative, Propositive, Imprecative, and Optative, though the last four (after Gnomic, not including it) would only be associated with conditions in Japanese in the sense that you could build them out of conditional phrases (like ばいい and たらいい). Those gaijin posts with ばよかったら (in the highly connected sense, not in the loosely connected sense that accepts a 、) were probably an unconscious attempt to use the Propositive or Permissive inside of a conditional condition (i.e. if so-and-so sees situation X with Y mood).

There are other examples where ば is used along with another conditional expression to change modality but I'm getting very tired and I would probably mess up describing them. That's why my last post was so vague.
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>>17638659
In your first two example sentences, もしかしたら is functioning as an adverb (you might think of it as a set phrase):
https://kotobank.jp/word/%E8%8B%A5%E3%81%97%E3%81%8B%E3%81%97%E3%81%9F%E3%82%89-645512#E5.A4.A7.E8.BE.9E.E6.9E.97.20.E7.AC.AC.E4.B8.89.E7.89.88
>[副]
Adverb
>可能性は低いが、そうかもしれないと仮定するさま。 ひょっとしたら。
Supposing that something might be the case, although the probability is low. Just maybe.

>adding もしかしたら to change the nature of the condition
Given that it's an adverb, it's modifying the following predicate in both sentences, stated or otherwise. Adverbs do not modify previous clauses unless it's some kind of inverted sentence, which this is not.

>危険だということを生徒達に周知してもらえれば
This still expresses "if we can get the students to understand (to make widely known among themselves) that it's dangerous..."
So it doesn't fit the "actual logical condition being expressed isn't the one that ば attaches to" remark, since 生徒達に周知してもらう is still the condition necessary for the subsequent result:
>もしかしたら被害は抑えられるかもしれない
[then we] might (かもしれない) by some off-chance (もしかしたら) be able to curb (抑えられる) the damage (被害は).

>今の僕の位置からアゼルを攻撃すれば、もしかしたら。
If I were to attack Azel (アゼルを攻撃すれば) from my current position (今の僕の位置から), then just maybe (もしかしたら)...
Attacking is still the required condition in this case for whatever the unstated result is.

>In situations like these, 口語 would use different wording to avoid the ば altogether
Your remark was about 敬語 vs. ため口 originally, have we shifted into 口語 vs. 文語? Because that's completely different. All of these example sentences so far have been in 口語. And even if you meant ため口 that still doesn't make sense because they're already in ため口 too.

>もしかしたら changes how ば relates to the conclusion of the condition
I don't think that's true. I think もしかしたら is just one component of the conclusion, and I don't think that makes ば、もしかしたら into a "compound conditional."

And I think your third example sentence is of exactly the same nature as the iffy ばよければ example I posted above.

I might be able to help make your point for you:
>WiiUのゲームだけ遊べればいいのならWiiU(プレミアムセット)。
In this case the necessary condition is not WiiUのゲームだけ遊べる but WiiUのゲームだけ遊べればいい, so I might be willing to call this a "compound conditional," but only in scare quotes because l don't believe there's such a grammatical concept in Japanese that needs to be distinguished from one conditional being nested inside another, separate conditional (as in this example).

And that still doesn't have anything to do with the assertion you made that
>Using ~ば conditionals (or other conditionals based on the 仮定形) where they're technically logically inappropriate, where ~たら or ~と conditionals would be better.
is a form or component of 敬語. The above sentence is definitely both 口語 and ため口.
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>>17638845
>Adverbs do not modify previous clauses unless it's some kind of inverted sentence, which this is not.
that's where you're wrong. this is one of the things we learn in linguistics, adverbs can change anything in the entire speech act. period. the statement i quoted is 100% wrong. i don't know how he did it but anon managed to ensnare you.
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Is anyone actually reading these walls of text?
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>>17638574
funness and effectiveness are often highly correlated though.
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>>17638887
Not really. I think most of it is just two autistics arguing, so it's not really meant for us to read anyway.
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>>17638948
misguided grammar vs armchair linguistics is the most fun thing to watch though
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Can (人)の参考にならない be used in the sense of "not regarding that person"?
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>>17638954
Should we ask Noam Chomsky for an expert consultation?
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>>17638959
No. It just means "It does not make for a reference for (other people)".
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>>17638959
>(人)
かわいいお尻ですよ
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>>17638998
Okay, since in one sentence it was used as 「彼女の参考にならないどころか。。」, and I thought of it as "Far to even compare with her situation, the other person's is much more worse)."
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>>17638966
>the fucking state of subs in 2017
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>>17638860
https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/191637/meaning/m0u/%E5%89%AF%E8%A9%9E/
>下に来る用言を修飾するもの
modifies the inflected word that follows
The only exception it mentions is:
>「もっと東」「すこしゆっくり」のように体言や他の副詞を修飾することもある。
So they can also modify nouns and other adverbs, which aren't inflected words.

>this is one of the things we learn in linguistics, adverbs can change anything in the entire speech act.
This is just a statement you're making based on your own personal studies of the "science" of linguistics, which I have no interest in and which I probably have less knowledge of than you do, because while I have studied linguistics in University classes I dropped out after only 3 years because I hated it.

I'm not speaking from a standpoint of linguistics, I'm talking about Japanese grammar in particular, and I'm not pulling statements out of my own head as proof, I'm giving you evidence form outside sources that support the things I'm saying.

So maybe in your mind もしかしたら is somehow modifying 周知してもらえれば instead of 抑えられるかもしれない, but I believe it's modifying the latter and I can cite sources to back up my positions.

What can you do except say "Nuh uh, linguists say that's wrong"? I have seen no hard evidence for any of your positions.

>the statement i quoted is 100% wrong. i don't know how he did it but anon managed to ensnare you.
I won't directly accuse you of samefagging without proof but I'm 95% sure you're samefagging. And I know your favorite debate technique is to latch on to one small part of the opponent's post that you think is technically wrong and use that as proof that everything they say is stupid because this isn't my first time in /djt/, but I don't think it works here.
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>>17639085
congrats you pulled off an oversimplified dictionary definition that doesn't have anything to do with reality outside of really basic examples and then called me a samefag

i'm very familiar with djt too and love watching your arguments because you stoop to insane logic like dictionaries > the entire field of linguistics to save face when the logic you use to corner people fails and it's amazing
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>>17639085
Grammar is linguistics, just simplified and reduced in scope for teaching normal people.

You're fucking retarded.
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