HEMA General - Historical European Martial Arts

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So anyone got an opinion on the Konig gloves?

>>2884538
The fuck are you doing? The old thread isn't even autosaging yet.

>>2884545
They're pretty good. Probably the best dexterity/protection combo out there, but I've heard from one person that they aren't terribly durable. That might have just been a fluke, though.

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PSA

>>2884545
>>2884710
Ya as far as I know the general consensus is that they don't last as long as you'd expect for the price but no major problems otherwise.

>>2884531
No, just on the gravel road behind my house (and sometimes on the playground where some kids watch me)

>>2885009
Saber the best!

>>2884545
afaik they're pretty big but very good

>>2884538
is that picture from salzburg??

>>2884538
Why do so many people not wear the suspenders on their pants? Do they not know how to wear them?

>>2885449
I guess some people have the same problem as I have, they're too long.
I've started crossing them and now they're kinda fitting.

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>>2884538
based medieval anime

Best way to learn Rapier? Giganti?

>>2885277
>[Broadsword] the best!
ftfy

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>>2885449
In my club it's because of fashion.
>>2885662
>Best way to learn Rapier?
>Giganti?
Yes. Then move on to others. Leave Thibaulet and Fabris for last.
Also fuck Swetnam.

And can any European or American (et al.) give me their opinion or perception on the State of HEMA in Australia.

I'm having to move to the Netherlands next year, so I need to upskill to fight those 6'5 fuckers.

>t. 5'7 NSWman

>>2885291
looks more like Vienna to me

>>2885564
>I've started crossing them
so what every sport fencer does, since like forever.

>>2885877
dunno, not a sport fencer

>>2885866
but the guy's from austria, right?
he looks like one I've fought some time ago, especially with the HRE flag

>>2885920
>fighting imperial Austrians with the sword
My ancestors are smiling down on me

>>2885932
the hema life is a good one

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>>2885009
Japanese sabres were a pretty short lived experiment. Really it was just the government going full westaboo.

>>2885920
I think he is, yes. The hall could be from Dreynevent, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

>>2886212
I think you're right, really looks like the halls there!

>>2885570
>arumingo_sordo_and_buckuru.jpg
"Bakkura", anon. Good show otherwise though.

>>2885920
>Vienna
>but the guy's from austria, right?
Anon where... do you think Vienna is located

>>2886264
so every person in vienna is automatically austrian?

Just wrote a local club that I'm interested in joining.
What can I expect?

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>>2884545
A bit bulky, but not overly so.

Decent combination of dexterity/protection.

Very easy to put on. You just slip them on like a pair of gloves, unlike sparring gloves/neyman's where you have to wiggle them on tight.

>>2885009
>>2886166
I thought those d-guard katanas were interesting.

>>2887404
>I thought those d-guard katanas were interesting.
For those who haven't read it:
http://www.kendo-world.com/wordpress/?p=2838

I'm thinking of doing some videos on the basics of Longsword, can you recommend what format or kind of details you think would be important?

>>2887449
This is great stuff. Its interesting how the European techniques were gradually abandoned for modified kendo techniques

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So here's an idea from over a year and a half ago I had.
>Picture related.
However couldn't afford to IP/Patent or even get prototype built.

HOWEVER! Here's a great HEMA group from Taiwan on FB called Backofhead who have decided to do exactly that!

Just goes to show how most good ideas aren't necessarily new ideas, and that actions speak louder than words.

I think it's a great idea tbqh.

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>>2888457
>tfw have an idea but no money to patent/get disgruntled old metal fabricators to make you one
>Decide no market for one, you can't afford to prototype one anyway, and can't even talk about it because of shitty IP and Patent Laws in your cuntry means speaking to people without a "Non-disclosure" statement turns it into "Common Knowledge" so it's no longer "Novel" or "Original" by 51%. Oh, and it's a "First IP'd/Patented best dressed" model with no room to contest, even with proof.
>tfw just over a year later another company does exact same thing and start raking it in
JUST

>>2887183
Why didn't call them?

Cheap but good rapiers from where?
Are Regenyei and Berbekucz best regarding value/money?

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>>2891443
I've heard decent things about Jin Ke rapiers.

>>2891500
>Jin Ke rapiers
Never heard of them before, but looks interesting.
Thanks!

>>2887704
Nationalism is a hell of a drug. (see this in another vein: http://hroarr.com/napoleonic-flame-war-cut-vs-thrust/).

Also, there's a point to the fact that they had few teachers of the european method compare to the dozens (if not hundreds) of legitimate kenjutsu and kendo masters and teachers available, and those would have been taught by people who fought in the Boshin war (see Negishi Shingoro for instance). They formed the DNBK in 1906 and kendo became formalized in the 1910's so why not use the bulk of the native japanese martial arts community? Especially considering fencing was really a little part of training and mostly there for status and morale, so it makes even more sense to stick to a native method.

>>2890722
no number on the website

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What do you guys think about sharp blades, sharp simulators and binding in general?

I keep noticing how different (and arguably closer to the medieval artwork) sparring with sharps looks compared to blunt feders and whatnot. The sheer amount of binding seems to change the game completely.
Roland Warzecha outlines this stuff here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T21uXihIZcI
It really gets me worried that the current training swords are teaching people wrong stuff. Shouldn't the HEMA community be taking this very seriously?

So far only Black Fencer has made training swords designed to have sharp-like binding characteristics (pic related). I wonder if something similar could be done with steel? Either way, more companies should be trying to find ways to emulate sharp binding. One thing I thought might work would be to stick a layer of some high-friction material like rubber, sandpaper (although I doubt that would work) or perhaps even some sort of foam to the edges of a feder. It would be probably take a lot of experimentation to find the right stuff, but I think we could come up with something truer to sharp steel than naked blunt edges.

What would be really interesting would be to see sharp simulators in a tournament setting, just to see if it makes a major difference in how people fence.

>>2891443
Regenyei rapiers are weirdly made (built to accomodate huge gloves, weird shapes and proportions to the hilts in general), I wouldn't recommend them.

>>2891500
Jin Ke rapiers are so subpar in handling and historical accuracy of the design that you'd be better off using a Hanwei. This is not a Hanwei recommendation.

>>2891443, I think your best option is Darkwood Armory. Right now ordering from them will be megafucked as they're gearing up for Pennsic, though. You might have to wait until it's over.

>>2892020
I've heard about friction tape on regular nylon wasters before the sharp simulators came out

>>2892040
>You might have to wait until it's over.
Not in a hurry, so thank you very much for the input!
What about Fabri Armorum? They have a rapier for less than 200€ and that's my target price.

>>2891443
A few days ago I handled some synthetic Rapiers from blackfencer. They were surprisingly good and for 90€ quite a good price for what you get. A little too bendy in the bind and less mass to control steel Rapiers well in sparring, but still good feel and handling

>>2892054
I have a longsword from them, I never tried one of their rapiers. Everyone I met that had someone with a fabri armorum sword in their club told me it is going to break another sword sooner or later, because they are quite heavy

>>2891500
Are those epee blades?

Does anyone know where the Italians get their rapiers from? I heard rumors about a bladesmith, but couldn't confirm so far. Anyone can ask around?

>>2887582
Footwork, posture, ect.
The basics.

>>2893255
yeah angles and distant control would be nice

>>2892186
Why don't you ask an italian?

>>2894444
Nice quads, but this ain't fucking /int/; we don't have flags here. Any one of us could be an Italian and we wouldn't even know.

>>2891443
No idea about Mr. Barbecue, but I've heard that Regenyei's are ok. Darkwood is pretty much the standard in the US; it's good stuff, but their cheapest is 300 USD. I'd stay away from Castille. I don't remember Danelli's prices, off hand, but it's probably more than you're looking for.

>>2895094
>I don't remember Danelli's prices, off hand, but it's probably more than you're looking for.
Danelli is entirely closed for orders, and his waiting list is over two years. For the foreseeable future, unless you're on the list already Danelli doens't exist.

>>2895094
What's wrong with Castille?

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Are there any good HEMA memes?
Pommel throw/end him rightly needs not apply, plebbiest normie meme in existence.

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>>2895766
Fiore giving you a hand or a pair of them when you are in need.

>>2895766
>>2895776
The MS.3227a and Fiore's "sword and buckler".
Apparently, ironic distate for smallsword and their user is a thing as well.

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>>2895766
>Are there any good HEMA memes?

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>>2896450
Based Meyer

>>2896450
>Fiore eating the baby Jesus with a fork
For what reason

>>2895881
Ironic distaste? That doesn't sound too bad, but I'm curious what sort of fucked up neo-hipsters you're dealing with.

>>2895321
They're too light. There's also no quillon block, and I don't like the shape of the grip - though the latter is just personal preference, obviously. If you can find one for cheap, it'd certainly be serviceable, but there are better options out there.

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>>2896450

>>2896504
that's spaghetti

>>2896987
nude fencing is now on my bucket list

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>>2897685
You have to look like that though!

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>>2897706
What is this terrible quality for a sketchbook.

I'm currently a sport fencer and I really want to get into HEMA, but all the clubs are over 60 miles away and I can't practically go to any of them. Is there a way to get started without a club.

>>2897706
TFW you will never look like a Greek god.

>>2897906
>Is there a way to get started without a club.
Possible but hard!
The best thing in your situation would be to get the basics down in the nearest club and then start training with a friend also interested in HEMA.
Thanks to Youtube there's A TON of content out there, still, nothing beats a good training and a good club!

>>2897933
Well, I do have a friend in my fencing club who learned rapier from a coach, so I guess I could start learning from him.

>>2897956
If you're interested in rapier then yes, that would be a great starting point! (also rapier is "closer" to sport fencing than e.g. longsword)

>>2897964
Not as close as Smallsword

>>2896987
ABSOLUTE MAD MAN!

>>2898149
Obviously, but I think Rapier will be far easier to learn for a sport fencer than e.g. longsword, langes messer or poleaxe

Are there any HEMA clubs on Sadrinia?
I plan on going there on vacation next year and some new fencing impressions would be nice.
Haven't found anything though, so do you guys know of any club or at least practitioners?

>>2899651
>Sadrinia?
*Sardinia, dammit

What does /hema/ think about training in 2 different clubs? (longsword in one, rapier and saber in the other)
I plan on attending some tournaments, which club should be the 'main' one for me if there's e.g. longsword and rapier?

>>2900155
Whichever you are better at or enjoy doing more

>>2900155
Train in two clubs. If they get shitty about it, fuck them.

Compete in all of them, even if you suck at it.

>>2888457
I believe in integral head protection too. Hope somebody will produce some affordable prototype in the near future

>>2900155
>What does /hema/ think about training in 2 different clubs?
How would you even live otherwise? Unless one club has classes on several days, that is.

Especially if they teach different systems, going to more than one club is only common sense -- spar with more different people, and more often. The difference between training once a week and twice a week is huge, if you're anything like most people you'll see an almost disgusting spike in improvement from increasing frequency of practice.

>>2900682
>Unless one club has classes on several days
My main club atm has classes on monday, wednesday and friday.
The other club at monday, tuesday, wednesday and thursday.
Pretty cool tbqh and one of the main reasons to additionally try the other club (except for my interest in rapier and saber)

>>2885564
Put some black electric-tape to attach them to each other at the height of the shoulder blades on the back and then they will fit as normal suspenders.

>>2900155
Whichever you like the most.

>>2884538
http://imgur.com/a/GxTIW

>>2884538
Do we talk about traditional/historical archery here too? Or do I need to make a separate thread for that?

>>2902760
I don't know if it was talked about before but I do know we had some nice discussion with the japanese sword arts guys before, so why not.

>>2900707
In that case just go, for the new weapon styles and sparring partners.

Why am I closing my eyes and freezing in the exchange?
I'm getting so frustrated with this. It's been going on for a few months now, since I started sparring.
I get in reach and suddenly I close my eyes. And stop. And it feels absolutely awful. An devastating, because I know I'm better than this. The club trains me really well and everyone is safe, and has good control.

But my ape brain hates me. Why?

>>2903090
focus on breathing, drill more, start with slow sparring and increase speed slowly till you reach full speed. if you freeze during this, stop, take a few deep breaths, start again. repeat till you get used to it

>>2902760
>Do we talk about traditional/historical archery here too?
I got you knigga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxophilus

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So I'm joining a club, first training will be in almost exactly a month's time because the gym hall they're using is closed for the summer.

The club focuses heavily on sword and buckler, which just happens to be my primary interest too. I'm naturally quite hyped.
What should I do and buy in the meantime? They say that any sort of protection and training tools are unnecessary for absolute beginners, so the question really is about the mundane shit like indoor shoes, pants, stuff like that.
As for what I should do, I suppose the question is if there's anything exercise-wise I can do to avoid waking up with horrible muscle aches the day after my first training. I'm skinny and relatively unfit at the moment.

>>2903411
L I F T
S
Q
U
A
T
But seriously, you'll do fine. Comfortable pants, preferably track pants. Indoor shoes. Shirt.
You can start conditioning by holding a small weight out in front of you. Keep the arms flexed. Don't hyper extend your elbows.
Just hold it there.
For better effect, stand with your feet shoulder width apart and lean forward just a little. Also keep your knees bent.

Also run.

>>2902760
You could, but then you likely get a lot more people for a discussion in >>>/out/ , no pun intended, /out/ has had some quality archery threads.

I'm starting a colonial period focus HEMA club, with sabres and bayonets and stuff.

Or am I fucked because it's not longsword focused?

>>2903576
>saber
>small sword
>wrestling
>staff
>bayonet (meh)
>wrestling & pugilism
Could be fun if done right.

Thoughts on sabres being a meme and having no practical advantages, not even in cutting, over a straight sword?

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/antique-swords-uk/research/articles/1845blade/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO7c0BON4UQ

>>2903576
Many salles don't focus or even have longsword teachings, they are certainly a minority, but rapier, sidesword, sabre and smallsword centric historical fencing schools are certainly out there. So I wouldn't say that it's fucked because it's not longsword focused.

Nonetheless I'm curious, do you have examples of New World treatises? I've briefly looked "that hungarian site" to no avail.

Also, guess it's the opportunity to post this (though I've yet to read it entirely):
http://ahfi.org/wp-content/uploads/library/estafilade_fencing-in-america.pdf

>>2903576
>colonial period focus HEMA club
>sabres and bayonets
It should first mean smallsword though. Not flashy but then...

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>want to get into fencing
>classes in club nearest to me are $100 a month
>am a poorfag
Now what am I supposed to do?

>>2904545
>77 bongdollars monthly
What the fuck? Schola is £8 per session. Does your club train three-four days a week and expect you to want to go to as many as you can, or what?

>>2904545
That depends a lot on how attractive you are and how flexible your 'morals' are.

>>2904583
There's like one beginner class per week

>>2904601
Your nearest club is a den of cunts.

>>2904583
>Schola is £8 per session.
sounds mc dojo desu

>>2904615
After doing some more searching I found one that's farther away, same price of $100 but they do three classes a week. Is it worth it?

>>2904653
Well, are you going to GO three times a week? Exactly how poorfag are you?

Only you can really decide if it's worth it.

>>2904674
I definitely wanna go as much as possible. I've been searching for a while for a sport to get into and fencing seems like something I'd really enjoy so of course I'd wanna get gud at it

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>>2904545
>tfw 180eurorubles a year

>>2904698
>220€ a year
>Training twice a week for 3 hours.

Chinese, not European, but I figure I'd ask here cause it has to do with swords and I want to avoid /mag/ autism.

My teacher started teaching me bagua, which is primarily hand techniques. The only weapons the system uses are those weird deer-horn claws since it is extremely close-range oriented.

However, I've also heard of a sword set. Apparently it's a greatsword-size blade, sometimes single edge and sometimes double. My teacher said it's just for conditioning, not combat, and the videos of shitty Wushu guys doing "bagua sword" seem to indicate that.

However, I also found part of an instructional dvd for the bagua sword that looked a lot more legit. This was a slightly shorter longsword. I'm just curious if anyone knows anything more about this style using swords for combat.

>>2903090
Do you have a followup to your first strike in mind, when you go in? The freezing might be because you don't know what to do after the initial contact, and with no visual information can't come up with anything quickly enough.

For the eye closing, I can't help you. I have the same problem and I've been sparring for about a year now. It doesn't happen as often as it used to, so I'm hoping it'll keep improving. One thing I've wanted to try but haven't gotten around to yet is having someone whack me in the mask continuously, just over and over again for a minute or so - not real hard, but enough to make me flinch at first - and see if I can get used to it, and, more importantly, if I can retain that later. I'm skeptical, but figure it's worth a shot.

>>2905025
Bagua is known for its oversize training weapons and your teacher is correct in saying that the preposterous oversize dao is merely a training tool. However, it's a training tool for using a normal-size dao with that much more ability -- the giant sword gets you used to something that handles like a dao but is much heavier, so a real one feels very light, quick and precise in your hands afterwards.

There's a fuckload of dumbasses doing dumb and bad CMA though, unfortunately, so you do have to wade through a ton of non-legit stuff to find a reputable instructor/correct forms.

>>2905264
Okay, cool, thought so. The guy I saw doing "legit" bagua had a much more reasonable sword. Guess I'll just keep practicing...

>>2905229
>One thing I've wanted to try but haven't gotten around to yet is having someone whack me in the mask continuously, just over and over again for a minute or so - not real hard, but enough to make me flinch at first - and see if I can get used to it, and, more importantly, if I can retain that later. I'm skeptical, but figure it's worth a shot.
Sounds awfully like kendo training (somehow like a reverse kakarigeiko) so it's probably not that absurd to develop the ability not to flinch/be too preoccupied by people smashing your mask.

>>2905229
>Do you have a followup to your first strike in mind, when you go in? The freezing might be because you don't know what to do after the initial contact, and with no visual information can't come up with anything quickly enough.
Good point there, try to think of a follow up and see if you still close your eyes.

>>2904583
I go to Schola too. Who are you anon?>>2904652
Based on what? Hall doesn't pay itself

>>2907245
>Hall doesn't pay itself
Who are you trying to shit, time at the public hall costs a few hundred $£€ a year at best, add beginner and loaner gear costs to that and you got your HEMA club budget more or less together.
You pay for the tutors fees at Schola and that is something you get for free in most other clubs.
>smells mcdojo

>>2907281
Isn't schola in London? Wouldn't that make the venue more expensive?

>>2907291
you can rent hours at public gyms (schools, whatever) at a very small fee, even in London.

>>2907281
Schola is one of the cheapest clubs in London. Waterloo, L.L.A, Renaissance, London Sword and Dagger.. all cost more per session.

Schola rents their space for 3 hours and most places in London charge £35 an hour. That's £105, without adding kit loan (all beginners get loaned weapons), insurance, fuel and everything else. I don't think the instructors make anything.

>>2907447
That's a £105 per session.

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>that one guy you want to get your ass kicked by
Would be Jake Norwood for me.

>>2907281
>time at the public hall costs a few hundred $£€ a year at best
Where the fuck are you at that you believe this? Schola is way the fuck out in Ealing and the hall rent is probably fifty-sixty per *session* all the same.

>>2907417
Renting time in sports halls in London also costs like £100 per hour and even with those fees the halls are usually booked solid with a waiting list every night of the week. Most London clubs have to use church halls, schools etc.

>>2907447
>I don't think the instructors make anything.
They don't, Schola spends their excess take on Fightcamp IIRC and the only London guy who makes money teaching HEMA is Dave "Autist" Rawlings.

>>2903588
>Could be fun if done right.
Thanks man.
I'm current taking Judo/Greco to up my wrasstlin game, and got in to a boxing club that's taught by a really old Irish dude. I'm subtly trying to scope out anyone in them who'd be interested coming over to the dark-notmma-side.
>>2903702
>do you have examples of New World treatises?
I've been given a heads-up on one that could be sweet, but I'll have to check it out (it's not online... Yet) and get back to you.
>>2903730
>It should first mean smallsword though
Obviously, however I've found that people get too confused and just think I'm an Oly foil epee fencer in a different colour, so it's more a branding change than anything else.

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>>2904737
>$500 AUD per year
>Discount on National Events, seminars and gear
>All beginner equipment provided
>Include insurance
>Three classes per week running two hours each
>But the dude is shutting it down and moving to a bigger city soon because of lack of interest/running costs

JUST

>>2907960
I used to go the the club he ran.
I had to bike about 10 miles to get there but was always fun. I had to stop going after one night I only made it most of the way back home on the bicycle and my knee got messed up pretty bad, followed by moving 1000s of miles away

>>2909625
His workshops seem clear and fun to follow, honestly he seems all the way up there with Keith Farrell in terms of pedagogy in HEMA.

Here comes a ridiculous post.
I was looking at yet another silly comparison between sword and dagger and the japanese two swords fencing, but then it obviously, as always, falls short because one-handed swords aren't exactly the same as a japanese long sword in this context and the kodachi isn't really a dagger, it's clearly more of a short sword.
So considering that the japanese long sword is closer in its use with the longsword and that the closest to a kodachi would most certainly be a dussack/messer... this brings to us... longsword and messer together...
After all, Paulus Kal has longsword and buckler, Fiore shows longsword in one hand as well, messer/dussack and longsword are pretty much the typical "german fencing" weapons, it's a bit absurd but well. Did anyone thought about it or any other ridiculous combo, face off, just for the heck of it?

>>2910292
>Keith Farrell and Jake Norwood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojxInw4grrU
with a funny finish.

>>2911067
>Keith Farrell bouncing forward when doing the final move
That's a really cool video and that finish with the reversal of the grip, I want that in movie choreographies.

>>2911067
Isn't dual wielding a meme?

>>2914127
>rapier and dagger
>a meme
you what

>>2911067
THAT'S IT
FUCK IT
I'm moving to Europe, there is fuck all here in Australia, the overall quality is trash, and there's no chance of getting decent regular training or being able to make an income off it.

So Anons, how do I move to Europe?

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>>2904545
Small town club instructor here.
I want you to go talk to the head instructor. See if there's any deal you can make.
What's the most you can do without tightening your belt?
Can you do some work for them?
Offer rides?
Mop floors?
Run a website/channels?
Make posters/cards/shirts?
Can you guarantee that you'll be in that door day in, day out?
Can you bring a friend with you who will be able to pay full dues?
If I found out that someone isn't able to come to my class because they can't afford it, I would try to work something out with them. I have so much work that needs to get done which isn't sword fighting.

The club is run by humans. Talk to them.

>>2914127
It existed but was rather obscure (except for rapier and dagger or X and buckler if you call that dual wielding)

>>2915362
>So Anons, how do I move to Europe?
pretend you're from syria

>>2903199
I'll do this. I have two plays in mind to go over which will involve me getting hit.
Breathing exercises should also help some. I've been more present in trying to breathe, but I sometimes still forget in sparring.
>>2905229
I usually lock two plays in my mind, and that helps my nervousness. But I've noticed I also don't regard my opponent in my tactics. I think in a vacuum, apart from the match.
I find it helps because I don't overthink.

I will keep going with sparring. Maybe I'll blindfold myself and become the next big weeaboo.
>>2906176
Fun fact: our HEMA class is doing a cross-club promo with the Kendo guys and it's going really well. There's a desire in both communities for more sparring partners, and more swordsmanship classes in the area.
There's also talk with sport fencers. But they're a recruiting ground for the olympic team, so they're much more serious about their activity.
We're hoping we can make a big swordsmanship event for the public, and tournaments for ourselves.
>>2907101
Preloading a one-two combo helps. I can usually use it to probe in the first few exchanges. But I still flinch sometimes when I get to that bind.

It's probably down to the hard road of practice and more sparring and drills.

>>2914127
As said, it depends.
Fencing with two similar weapons (typically two swords) is/was some sort of a "meme" as it was mainly for demonstrations or as a supplement, to perfect your more regular fencing. It definitely existed though, almost all of the 16th century italian sources mentions it and it was quite popular in Spain and France as well.

Wielding two different weapons is definitely not a meme though and it was pretty much the usual way to fight in southern Europe from the 1550's up to 1650-1700's, mainly in the form of sword and dagger. If you consider sword and buckler "dual-wielding" (the shield is a weapon after all), then... it was done since at least the 13th century.

And then you got stuff like this...
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Einige_Figuren_von_Fus-Thurnieren_(2%C2%BA_MS_Math.7)
Yes, double messers!

>>2916592
>http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Einige_Figuren_von_Fus-Thurnieren_(2%C2%BA_MS_Math.7)
Spicy, that's really some interesting stuff!

>>2885009
How easy is it to learn 19th/20th century saber?
And what are they even called, military/dueling/classical/heavy saber, or are they all different?

>>2916636
Someone can correct me as it's mostly "educated guesses" but, military sabre obviously refers to the various military traditions (mainly english, french, dutch, swedish). dueling sabre refers to lighter models that started with a more civilian vibe like Marcelli (late 17th), heavy sabre refers to those closer to the broadsword traditions (english sabre being very close for the most part to scottish broadsword for that matter), this and heavy cavalry inspired stuff. Classical sabre would be the one that is originated and coming from the italian and hungarian traditions of civilian sabre fencing like late neapolitan, Radaelli etc.

All in all, 19th c. sabre is usually quite a simple system to read and understand, it's very easy to get partner drills and cutting drills out of (straight from the manuals), most descriptions are plainer and simpler to get than in earlier texts. One very influencial source is Henry Angelo (both of them), they pretty much defined english military sabre for an entire century and it's an easy and clean system (see Le Marchant as an even simpler earlier version). Sabre has typically the good parts of the later eras, it's better described, more systematic, more rational but certainly a little bit too short, there's not as much to do text-wise as with rapier or longsword (many manuals are like 50p), on the other hand there are more texts...

Here's Angelo's 1845.
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/topics/sources/1845-infantry-sword-exercise.pdf

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>>2911067
Katana is close to longsword in use, but size-wise its like a messer with a long handle. Not designed for one-hand use, but not so dissimilar.

>kodachi isn't really a dagger, it's clearly more of a short sword.
Kodachi sometimes referred to daggers and kogusoko was a term used the referred to both daggers and short swords up to a certain length.

There were small wakizashis that were 30-40 cm and large wakizashis that capped out at 60 cm. That's easily within the range of main gauches and alehouse daggers.

Prior to the katana/wakizashi combo, samurai carried tachi+tanto, though I can't find any references to dual wielding them.

>>2916670
But what I'm interested is was specifically usage and not shape. Besides shape is one thing but it's hardly a fair way to compare one thing to the other (the khyber knife videos of scholagladitoria were interesting in that regard). It serves little purpose, according to me, to compare two similar-ish objects that were, in their respective culture, used for different purpose and in different ways.

The fact is, the japanese long sword was used much more closer to the european longsword (because two-handed mostly, but also because of cultural reasons) than to messers or cutlasses. And then you'd have to think that the blade is more important than the handle in regard to use, it's then another point.
Same thing with the kodachi which are pretty much always (would love to see a counter-example) used as short cut and thrust swords. All styles that depict its usage that I know of both used largely cuts and thrusts. Doesn't matter what it "looked like" compare to the european counterparts.

Maybe there were instances of dual wielding with tachi/tanto, but there are no sources of it, on the opposite side, I could easily cite at least five important styles that taught long sword/short sword together, so the question is somehow moot.

I realized it's pretty much a sticking to your guns answer, but the angle of approach was pretty clear, if silly. The longsword is a better analog to the tachi, the dussack/messer, the closer analog to the kodachi, hence nito/ryoto being closer, even if in fantasy land to longsword and messer, in their use, rather than sword and dagger. In that regard, tachi/tanto is as fantasy and silly than longsword and messer, considering we have no sources of it.

Also what do you call "alehouse dagger"? I'm suddenly interested now...

>>2916670
>>2916731
Depending on the length a tachi could be as long as a katana or closer to a longsword. The second blade was not always a dagger either. IN addtion to a waki there were also various daggers like a yoroi doshi that could be carried.

Duel weilding almost certainly predates musashi so it was probably done with tachi,

As for katana I would say it was often used like a long sword but not exclusively. Look at how styles with a large batto focus uses the sword.

>>2917220
>As for katana I would say it was often used like a long sword but not exclusively. Look at how styles with a large batto focus uses the sword.
How exactly? How do styles with a "large batto focus" uses their swords differently that any other two koryu? TSKSR and Shinkage-ryu both have a good deal of iaï in them, doesn't mean that their kenjutsu is more outlandish than styles that don't have some, doesn't also mean that they don't stand as their own thing, iaïjutsu or no iaïjutsu. Both proved to be some of the most influencial styles of Japan for that matter.

Of course longsword fencing and the japanese one will be different, but the implementation of a iaïjutsu curriculum in the latter as nothing to do with that.

Also, the tachi is a sword designed to be used on horseback, so I doubt that dual wielding it would have been a trained thing (would have been fun to witness it though). It's common knowledge that nito/ryoto was done before Musashi founded HNIR, it's really not relevant to the whole thing. Tachi/katana/uchigatana aren't about length, time period often dictates more about blade length than fittings.

>>2917377
I would not say those two styles have a large batto focus, talking to people in those styles, they tend to imply its very much a secondary study for them. But the point isn't that iaijutsu led to different usage, But that the same design elements that allow for the focus on iaijutsu allow for different usage.

At the time the uchigatana began to eclipse the tachi in prominence you had very tight formations and a greater emphasis on infantry tactics. way the blade is worn and the usually shorter length allows for quicker deployment, however its two handed design gives it leverage to deal with longer weapons if necessary.

While I dont deny that kenjutsu and European long sword share certain similarities, at least with the sengoku and early edo period kenjutsu, I think there practical usage was somewhat different. My worry is that the comparison leads some people to assume the katana was like a long sword only shorter. Its not

>>2917613
The base point wasn't that the european longsword and the japanese long sword are used pretty much the same, just that comparing it to european weapons, it's closer to the longsword than to the messer or one-handed sword, that's all.
Along the way the silly but potentially fun Longsword + Messer/Dussack combo.

I'm still wondering what style with a "large batto focus" (why "batto" btw?) you would be talking about that still incorporate a good deal of "regular kenjutsu". I don't think that MJER qualify or pretty much any pre-Edo one either and then we'll get into stuff like Shindo Munen-ryu of which I don't know enough about.

>>2918396
There are lots of kenjutsu styles with a strong iaijusu focus, also some jujutsu styles that have a large iaijutsu curriculum.

The historical MJER would count, before it was truncated and effected by modernization.

That said the your first point is totally valid.

>>2918415
Then please name them my dear, it's only the third post I'm begging you to. I certainly don't doubt you, but as much as I like to look into things, I enjoy shortcuts too.
I suppose you're implying stuff like Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu or Sekiguchi-ryu (or maybe even Asayama Ishiden-ryu and I only remember of Suio-ryu now...)?

(now this is some thread-hijacking - but longsword and messer fantasy practice still is in talk)

>>2918472
you named a few, though I am not sure SYR would count tasumi ryu would also be there. Taisha ryu and mugai ryu might also count, and maybe a few of the more obscure Iai styles whose names escape me

>suddenly JMAshit all up ins
Shoo, weebs, shoo, shoo!

>>2907447
What are the instructors at Schola like?

>>2918590
When I visited three months ago they were cool. Matt teaches and the other instructors walk around helping newbies. Seemed friendly enough, I think there were three. They wear grey shirts.

>>2918553
in previous threads they said JSA is welcome here

>>2884538
So after talking to a freind of mine I am thinking of trying hema but I have some questions.

Do clubs generally try to keep material from different manuals separate?

Once I have some experience if I want to play with a manual the club doesn't really rely upon will that be frowned on?

Do clubs lone beginners equipment or expect new members to quickly buy stuff?

>>2918821
>Do clubs generally try to keep material from different manuals separate?
Depends on, early manuals are often so patchy that you need to fill up the gaps with another manual from the same lineage. Apart from that materials have to be treated as a separate thing.

>Once I have some experience if I want to play with a manual the club doesn't really rely upon will that be frowned on?
Doing your own research? No thats normally encouraged. Just try not to be the one year noob that fucks up class because he read something.

>Do clubs lone beginners equipment or expect new members to quickly buy stuff?
That depends mostly on how much you enjoy sharing sweaty fencing masks.

>>2918821
Experiences from my club:
>Do clubs generally try to keep material from different manuals separate?
Kinda, we learn stuff across all manuals, but it's always mentioned where it's from (e.g. we're comparing the texts from Ringeck and Danzig regarding e.g. mutieren)

>Once I have some experience if I want to play with a manual the club doesn't really rely upon will that be frowned on?
Generally not as long as you're not disrupting the training with it.
That's more something for freeplay or sparring

>Do clubs lone beginners equipment or expect new members to quickly buy stuff?
Yeah, in the first year in my club there are Feders, masks and gloves for the beginners but after that year they're expected to at least get those three things for advanced training.

>>2908473
Devon Boorman from Acadamie Duello also teaches professionally
Aaron Shober from Sword Carolina also teaches professionally

I should know as I'm trying my damnedest to quit doing work and pursue teaching swordfighting full time. Or to at least strike a balance between work and life.

Part of it is that I've gathered everyone I know of who teaches full time, and I constantly ask them questions about their success. They've been a big help for me.

From september on I'll teach the longsword beginners in my club, is it the right thing to do lots of footwork, oberhau/underhau and parrying drills?
I want them to get the basics 100% before beginning masterhaus in the advanced classes.

>>2921720
>Part of it is that I've gathered everyone I know of who teaches full time, and I constantly ask them questions about their success. They've been a big help for me.
Care to share, or trade secrets?

>>2922337
The big answer is that each of those guys put more than 10 years into their clubs before the club started paying them to live. Each of them lives "within their means", which is to say that no one gets rich teaching swordfighting unless there's an urgent market demand for it.

Two of them also live in major metropolitan areas. That must help. Shober is an outlier in that regard.
Most people seem to be happy to teach as a hobby to their regular day job.

The big problem is that there isn't an established method to become a HEMA instructor full time. You can't go to school for HEMA. Sport fencers can take coaching classes and go through the school or national sport systems to teach, for example. Such a thing does not exist for HEMA.

I would say that fitness instruction should help, along with some formal education in history, to help with your ability to research. Other than that, it's networking, it's organizing, and so on. You'll need to know how to make events, get a poster made, logos, run websites/social media. Cross-club training, gear rentals, tournaments if you think you're hard enough. AND you have to find time in the day to research a swordfighting system and develop a curriculum to teach it.

There's so much back end to running a class, and trying to get to the professional point means you have to provide every single bit.

Like 90% of what I do isn't swordfighting. It's making sure that other people even have a swordfighting class to come to. Every day those doors open for two hours, there's six more of preparation, at least.

>>2921960
What style or master are you going to teach? I assume you're going Liechtenauer tradition since you named german strikes. Also, what about including thrusting in the beginner course?
How long will the beginner course last? Depending on the duration I'd include some binding drills and therefore a few masterhaus.

>>2884538
A presentation on the Liechtenauer tradition by M. Chidester and especially about apparently a not-so-used source that confuses everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r_cnXY6nMI
Without knowing much more than the general principles and basic history, it was a pretty nice lecture. The guard names swapping is interesting but confusing af though.

Also, I was having trouble recalling something about the five cuts in KdF, especially the way they are called. I've seen "master strikes", "hidden strikes", "five strikes" and especially the fact that the word "meisterhau" apparently appeared only later (like in Meyer's or something) and that "five cuts" was much more prevalent in the 15th c. What is it exactly? Thanks

>>2923061
>What style or master are you going to teach?
Liechtenauer, mostly von Danzig and Ringeck.

>including thrusting in the beginner course
Yes, is included but later.

>How long will the beginner course last?
One year

>I'd include some binding drills and therefore a few masterhaus
Some very simple binding drills are a great idea, masterhaus are for advanced classes though!
First footwork, then oberhau and underhau, parrying, then thrusting and absetzen, cutting and finally mutieren and duplieren.

>>2923210
oh and winding to the parrying

>>2918851
>>2921258
Thanks for the answers,

I would also ask what are the most popular manuals and why? from what Ive read alot of the clubs close to me seem to focus on Meyer and long sword. Ive followed this thread for awhile. I get why long sword is popular but why Meyer specifically? Is it because he focused on tournament blade work?

>the only London guy who makes money teaching HEMA is Dave "Autist" Rawlings.
>the only London guy

>>2921720
>Academie Duello
>Vancouver
>Sword Carolina
>Yokel Country

How's that ol' reading comprehension there, son?

>>2924787
K

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some redditor posted his hanging pell and it's pretty cheap and easy to make
how do you use that thing and what's it good for?

>>2924575
>I get why long sword is popular but why Meyer specifically?
Because he wrote in a manner that's more akin to a teacher teaching a new student and then adding more obscure history stuff later.
With this, you can start to read other older sources and go "Oh yeah, that makes sense..."
Basically he's the most "plain speaking", which is saying something.

>>2925966
>how do you use that thing and what's it good for?
Afaik thrusting and winding, hewing is also possible but you don't hit it full force (especially true for massive and fixed pells, they'll destroy your sword and joints!)
It's supposed to build fühlen, feeling for distance and flow (I think, I don't have one)

>>2924575
>I get why long sword is popular but why Meyer specifically?
Because 480 pages of detailed clear text instructions and illustrations on the 5 main weapons in a plain, understandable early modern German.

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What are Anon's thoughts on Joseph Swetnam?

I think he's basically a shitty Fabris ripoff.

>>2926422
>>2926046
I ask because Ive read several articles that suggest meyers long sword lacks thrusting, or only implies the possibility of thrusts, or uses them as feints but never brings them to effect.

This seems rather at odds with practicality.

>>2927876
Thats true, thrusting with longswords was at that time a social taboo north of the alps, so unlike earlier masters he did not describe the techniques but only mentions them briefly. So he teaches you fencing as it was done in the HRE in the late 16th century. In German regions they distinguished between Hiebfechten and Stossfechten for a long time.
On the other hand, for his Rapier work (which is really more of a side sword) Meyer uses thrusts all the time.

>>2927932
is meyers work a single system covering multiple weapons using the same principles?

>>2927876
>This seems rather at odds with practicality.
Anyone that has ever been in the middle of a Meyer helicopter of death (aka the storm of steel, aka the garden of blades) will tell you otherwise.

>>2927932
By the way, fencing styles/manuals
often reflect the society and values of the time, sometimes you got warlike kill'em all and rip their heads of manuals and sometimes you have be a good Christian and only disarm him manuals. And those "violence patterns" come and go in waves.

>>2927955
Yep, Meyer is a complete system, Longsword, Dussack, Rapier, Dagger and Staff.
Meyer was a licensed master, as such he had to master long sword, staff and dussack/messer. Dagger, which includes some wrestling, was expected of him as it was the most important self defense technique at the time, and since he was a well traveled man he decided to include some Rapier fencing which became fashionable at the time and originated from Italy.

>>2884538
>>2884538
While looking for late-ish manuscripts (1500+), I've found a little french rapier treatise (BSB Cod.gamm. 515) that I had yet to hear about, but that's probably because it's not exactly groundbreaking, and because it's severly unfinished but still, a manuscript about fencing...
It's dated from 1661, the guy would have been 60yo by then, he apparently wrote several other books about science, architecture, lute, carpentry, etc... He would have subscribe to Ramon Llull's line of thinking, whatever it is. Like his father, he served in some king's house cavalry regiment. The manuscript is at the last quarter taken over by his son and sole heir and then dated in 1664 (son would have been 20yo at that time) he wrote a bit more about fencing, but it's a bit different than his father though, writing wise anyway.

There's references to Agrippa and Cavalcabo (Cesar Cavalcabo wouldn't have been out there anymore though). The father does describe three guards Carte, Tierce, Seconde along the typical agrippean lines though there are a lot of descriptions and approaches that look indeed Cavalcabo-ish to my not-so-trained eyes (I've read him through at least).
Funny and most original parts are how to train people of different heights or with body defects accordingly, how to approach people depending on their size and the length of their sword (this part especially because of how painful it is to read). How to approach different sort of opponents and how to probe them.
And also the "General Rules" are presented only at the very end...

Anyway, I have done a (totally amateur) transcription of it, I intend to make a modernization of the language and if some crazy bastards are interested, I'll translate it in english as best as I can (it'll be like 10p long anyway).

The things I do for not letting depression take over...

>>2928267
I'm very interested in reading it if you ever translate it! Things will get better, hang in there

>>2927876
It was more of a "covering his ass legally" thing, since thrusting was frowned upon at the time. He still taught thrusts in case you were fighting someone who didn't follow the rules of the Feschtule

>>2927974
>>2927959
How does that compare to someone like Fiore who from what I can see gives pretty detailed instructions.

(Ive been reading is wrestling and its all really solid stuff, a lot like judo)

>>2928654
Meyer is very detailed, most techniques are illustrated as well. He is a little light on the wrestling though, most of it is in the dagger section.

>>2928267
>Anyway, I have done a (totally amateur) transcription of it, I intend to make a modernization of the language and if some crazy bastards are interested, I'll translate it in english as best as I can (it'll be like 10p long anyway).
Big based translator working the mono-languaged Anglos.

Look forward to it. Sounds very Cavalbro.

>>2928654
>How does that compare to someone like Fiore
Not really comparable. You'd be better comparing him to Marozzo.
>who from what I can see gives pretty detailed instructions.
Depends on which manuscript. Fiore is pretty sweet tbqh.

>>2928882
>Not really comparable.

why not?

Anyone here training northern italian sabre? Are there any good videos, especially drills, regarding Radaelli, Barbasetti, Masiello and so on?
I want to train as much as possible and use the time at home for some solo drills.

>>2928267
>>2928358
>>2928878
So here's the first (very rough) first transcript in le aulde françois. I didn't try to make it look pretty (yet), so bear with me.
I'm having trouble with the fracking p45 because he is writing the same paragraph four times without managing to find a way to be happy about it, ruling out what he just wrote multiple times and also, his hand-writing is just getting worse by the penultimate attempt, his ink is thinner and since it's just tryouts, I'm leaving it as it is for now (plus there's what is the "final" version of said paragraph one page later and thirty pages earlier).

I've decided to leave the ruled out words and sentences in because sometimes, they greatly help to understand what he meant, plus it's one of the funny bits of such manuscripts and I consider it integral part of the whole thing, especially since there's no real "whole thing" to begin with.
It'll always be a bit messy as it's the nature of such work, after all it begins with something along the lines of:
"It seems that the three (three ruled out) four principles or foundations of the arms or of fencing are the guard, the stoccata, all parries, the measure, all retreats, the speed".
Anyway first draft, certainly some typos, the words have sometimes considerably changed in 350 years and it was late.

https://dropfile.to/XCbcrpC
(I'm new to this upload thing so I might have flunked it somewhere)

>>2929793
>certainly some typos
certainly a lot of typos

>>2929793
Thank you for your effort! I'll be monitoring this and I am looking for what comes from it in the future!

>>2930025
Thank you! Be warned that as of now it's quite disgusting, I had planned from the start to modernize the text and this is said modernized version that should be the clean one, I'm in the process of doing it right now.
You can have a look at it, but it's a quickly done thing as of now, totally unpolished with lots of small errors, it'll still give you a vague idea of the general plan of the texts.

>>2930041
>>2930025
And here comes the first draft of the modernization in French. Most of the typos and silly errors are corrected, changed some stuff on the editing. I hope it's less horrid than the previous version I might correct it in due time, at least, it should be readable for the people who can do it in French.

I did NOT modernize the effing p45 yet because it's a pain and we already have the two - I hastily presume - final versions of the paragraphs of said page in p11 and p46.

I didn't referred to the pages in the recto/verso manner but I might do it afterwards.
Any feedbacks welcome regarding the editing and/or anything else really.

https://dropfile.to/909OZvc

>>2884538
Here is a question. Many Chinese and to a lesser extent Japanese marital arts have intensive solo training or mediation practices such as

breathing
silk pulling
isometrics
stance holding
different types of meditation

are there any hema manuals translated or not that describe such practices?

>>2931333
>are there any hema manuals translated or not that describe such practices?
No. Capoferro says "don't waste your time teaching people who aren't strong and supple, there's no point in learning techniques if you're physically shit" and IIRC a few of the Germans say things like "wrestle with your buddies erryday" and "I can't believe you have to be told to wrestle your buddies erryday, Germany is going to the dogs. What next, will you need to be told to drink beer?" but there are no fitness practices and especially no sign of any internal work at all.

>>2931333
>>2931684
There is some illustrations of weight trainings, lifting stones and leather bags. Nots sure where I saw them.

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>>2931751
>imagine having a brothel and a jester in your hema club

>>2931684
>but there are no fitness practices and especially no sign of any internal work at all.

In a way it surprises me that something found everywhere east of India would have no equivalent west of it.

>>2931333
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI

Jean le Maingre, called Boucicaut, (1366-1421) was known for his rigorous physical training.

And now he began to test himself by jumping onto a courser in full armor. At other times he would run or hike for a long way on foot, to train himself not to get out of breath and to endure long efforts. At other times he would strike with an axe or hammer for a long time to be able to hold out well in armor, and so his arms and hands would endure striking for a long time, and train himself to nimbly lift his arms. By these means he trained himself so well that at that time you couldn't find another gentleman in equal physical condition. He would do a somersault armed in all his armor except his bascinet, and dance armed in a mail shirt...

When he was at his lodgings he would never ceased to test himself with the other squires at throwing the lance or other tests of war.

>>2931815
why would that surprise you? there are plenty of cultural/social differences between the east and west even today, let alone several hundred years ago

>>2931793
the fuck are the guys in the back doing?

>>2930623
i want english, motherfucker. especially the parts about fighting people of different sizes. come on frenchy, chop chop. we're counting on you here

>>2932557
>why would that surprise you?

Because there was a lot of cross over with India in the west, going back to prehistory, and hema seems to have many technique similarities with various Asian martial arts

Who makes a good steel sabre that looks similar to the 1803 pattern infantry sabre? The only one I've found is the Regenyei sabres, but the thumb ring and knucklebow are more Polish-y.

>>2932570
>hema seems to have many technique similarities with various Asian martial arts
That's because the human body is pretty much the same in the east and the west, there's only so much you can do with a body.
Obviously the techniques, especially in wrestling, are comparable everywhere in the world.

>>2932603
Dunno, maybe Berbekucz?
http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/nemet/54_kardok/html-kep/5451_sz01.html
(the 35€ is a mistake, it's 350€)

>>2932665
True, Its possible since many of the ideas and practices spread through Asia via Buddhism they never proliferated in the west, though again, humans being what they are and with what little knowledge of neolithic religious practices (cause some of this stuff goes way back) that I have it would really surprise me if no one in the west at some point knew of similar practices

>>2932679
Not that anon but cool stuff!
I'm not sure with those prices though, can the sabre and the rapier be good in any way for 140 and 110 euros?
The sabre grip looks kinda slippery and the rapier just looks off in general, am I just seeing things?
>http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/nemet/01hema/html-kep/11_hf05.html
>http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/nemet/01hema/html-kep/11_hf06.html

Does anyone have Berbekucz stuff?

>>2932557
>the fuck are the guys in the back doing?
Fitness stuff, probably. Lifting a stone was an alternative to the weights that were around. Kinda like today's kettle bells or bulgarian bags. Beats me what the other two are doing. But everyone in that scene appears to be doing something more fitness related than actual fighting. Reverse grip on the longsword in the middle, the one guy is...holding the crossguard between outstretched fingers? Another is balancing over giant daggers?
All of this must simply be the conditioning parts of their training.

Or the most simple solution would be that it's not a realistic portrayal of a fencing club at the time, and instead is comical.

>>2929793
Fucking nice one m8.

Keep it up.

>>2931793
>tfw your the club's resident Richard Tarlton
>but you don't get the hookers

>>2932557
>i want english, motherfucker. especially the parts about fighting people of different sizes. come on frenchy, chop chop. we're counting on you here
Hey everyone, get a load of this guy! He DOESN'T learn languages from fencing!

>t. Dude who learned to read Italian in order to study

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>>2933126
>I'm not sure with those prices though, can the sabre and the rapier be good in any way for 140 and 110 euros?

I'll be able to tell you soon.

I'm getting a 130cm rapier from him soon.

>>2933244
I'm thinking about getting the sabre but I'm not entirely sure yet, so I'm really looking forward to your review!

>>2933126
My club mate has a Berbekucz Feder. The handle is kinda rattle-y and the blade is a bit softer compared to the Regenyei's most of the club uses, but it works.

>>2933126
>>2933256
Most guys in my club also have one, can confirm that some of them start rattling after longer use and that they're a bit softer (and I think heavier?) than Regenyei's.
Only one has broken in the last 5-7 years but that one was used heavily.
They're absolutely worth their money!

>>2932557
>>2933232
I see you are doing the bad cop good cop on me... (it's actually working - I'm 40% done for the first draft).

Also, frankly, it's the fourth time I'm reading the piece, you shouldn't expect it to be like the second coming of the christ (or rather like the third book of Giganti). It's just a modest work done by an amateur who probably knew some stuff but mostly wanted to write about everything he knew, without managing to really finish anything. There's a couple of funny and peculiar lines (2me), but it's hardly revolutionary or even noteworthy. It's just a simple little fencing manuscript, which was more than enough to make me have fun.

>>2932679
Jesus Christ. Why do HEMA and sword smiths have the worst websites? Same with Kult of Athena. Their website looks terrible and it's difficult to navigate.

>>2935388
Mostly because we want to do HEMA and make swords.
We don't want to do things that are not what we want to do.
Unless someone steps up and starts taking paid commissions to make good websites for us, there's no motivation to make better sites. They already do the job, and they people who search for this stuff will likely not be turned away with a bad site.

>>2935388
>Jesus Christ. Why do HEMA and sword smiths have the worst websites?
Because they aren't run by experienced businessmen.

>>2935388
>http://www.swordsviktor.com/
that one's better but doesn't have everything (like the HEMA saber)

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Has anyone here very been banned from the HEMAA FB page?

>>2935388
It's the old and abandoned website

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>>2936731
>facebook

>>2936731
What's the meaning behind the flag? I'm new here.

>>2934144
>(or rather like the third book of Giganti)
DELET THIS

>>2937244
Because American groups tend to be cancerous echo-chambers where new or alternate ideas get shouted down, and if you provide evidence to support your claim you are banned.

Also there's a small cabal that makes most of the money leaving the ignorant to pick up the scraps.

Michael C. is the epitome of that. Fuck the translators and researchers, they should suck my dick for me even giving them the time of day.

>>2934144
>>2933232
>>2932557
>>2928267
So here's the first draft of my translation of the BSB cod.gamm. 515, manuscript by Pierre Baudouin de Montarcis and son.

Several things first, note that this is a first draft (of a first modernization draft of a first transcription draft), it's not to be thought as a perfect work, it's just a state in a work-in-progress, still... Note that I'm not a professional or a serious amateur translator, I just speak and write french and english as best as I can depending on my mental state. In that regard, the phrasing will most certainly be inelegant and weird at time. In many passages I've done a fairly brutal translation, keeping with the original arrangement; I think (hope) that the information contained here is still usable and understandable, since it's the point for now.
The editing is certainly to be upgraded, probably some typos left (it's a first draft), if you have any suggestions about this or that, feel free to give them.
This text is just a modest, probably amateur, attempt at a fencing manual done by two guys, it's not a revolutionary piece that will shatter the traditional representation of 17th century fencing, or any fencing really (and if it does well fuck yeah!), so keep that in mind when you read it and can't help thinking "yeah but I know that stuff", "God can't you just say something of interest at some point"...

There's still a lot to be done, but this project is at a good point nonetheless. And without further ado...
https://dropfile.to/HO2O1Kb

>>2937381
thanks dude

>>2937381
Interesting read! Thanks a lot!!

>>2937381
Thank you buddy

Keep on the good fight, anons.

>>2937381
>cod.gamm.
More like god.damm
Amiright?

>>2937407
>>2937660
>>2937893
>>2939692
You're welcome anons, I'll keep on polishing it cause it's clearly needed, and if you have anything else french related (that isn't smallsword if possible) please post it in return.

can a guy with a sabre realistically win against longsword, rapier or sword&buckler?
I guess against dussack and long knife it's pretty much equal?

>>2938677
>>2940331
should be banned tbqh

>>2940516
why would you fight longsword or s&b with a sabre, tho?

>>2937313
Come start a splinter group with me

Im thinkin, HEMA Horde

Apparently theyve banned enough people for a solid user base kek

>>2940516
Why not? Masters describe dagger winning against a longsword, so why not sabre?
There's no reason why it couldn't be possible, not easy sure, but far from impossible. Quite anachronistic though as >>2940602 said.

Why the question exactly, why can't you imagine someone with a specific sword winning
against someone with another sort of sword and companion?

Y'all seen that new fightcamp logo? MLP version of Fiore's Lynx. Very cringe.

>>2940671
Post it

>>2940688
not that anon, but here you are, doesn't look like MLP but it's still some style that makes it look like an event for children

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>>2940836
Ah damn, I forgot to add the picture ;_;

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>>2936731
I see this circulating around the medieval LCS page and a few other bohurt pages.
Seems someone was being a fedoralord and got b& when they talked about cultural marxism or using the sword of their ancestors, or harassed women and brown people. Then they joined up in the bohurt community pages to try and get their community against ours. Which still advertises it's events in our pages. But holy shit talk about HEMA in their pages and it's an autistic shitfest.
>>2937313
Plenty of new ideas are talked about in American groups. Our tournament scene is rapidly catching up to Europe's, and our instructors are much more willing to put conditioning and other martial arts training tools in our classes.

>>2941128
I always have wondered what's the sauce of that pic. I see everywhere.

>>2940836
>>2940890
Thanks, it looks retarded. I don't understand why they thought it was a good idea

>>2940890
I like it, it is cute. CUTE!

>>2942174
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB9WgR_N4h4
Serbia Strong, Remove kebap!

>>2941128
>Plenty of new ideas are talked about in American groups. Our tournament scene is rapidly catching up to Europe's, and our instructors are much more willing to put conditioning and other martial arts training tools in our classes.
Yeah, because you have more money then sense.
I mean holy shit, you have not one but TWO viking HEMA schools...

"""VIKING HEMA"""

You've got to be shitting me.

Also stop ripping off the Europeans before they get a chance to translate or, I dunno, even take credit for finding new manuals.

The big issue I take is that you all want to be "First!" in everything, you have zero community mindedness because it must be socialism, and you just blow everything out of proportion and add dumb shit because you're impatient!

I've met so many great American fencers, but they are severely outnumbered by greedy, boarderline autistic, "muh" Americans.

>>2942975
I agree about this viking shit. And getting more community closeness would be great. But for that, you're more looking to geographic areas of America, instead of the country as a whole. Like pacific northwest, south east coast, etc, etc.
Those smaller areas tend to have more solidarity and coordinate better than the country as a whole.
But America does have the HEMAA going for it. Which is an attempt at coordinating HEMA efforts globally. Which is nice.

And we do have special cases of nerd-dom here, because of the special circumstances of American geeks. Like the folks who grow up in a country town, surrounded by future meth failures.

America is definitely different from Europe. But I don't think it will be long before America becomes a serious HEMA scene. Especially if the SCA continues to fall apart and bleeds members into HEMA. Like what happened to my club. Which was great.

>>2940890
IWTCIFC

>>2943237
>IWTCIFC
I would totally cum in Fight Camp?

>>2942975
>"""VIKING HEMA"""
Holy fuck
Why are people so obsessed with vikings? they have to make a viking version of everything cool, and they ruin it

>>2943419
>Why are people so obsessed with vikings?
"Muh heritage!"

>t. Some American probably

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>>2943146
>But America does have the HEMAA going for it. Which is an attempt at coordinating HEMA efforts globally. Which is nice.

This sums up my thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mlCPMYtPk

Take that as you will, both the good and bad.

>>2943146
>Which is an attempt at coordinating HEMA efforts globally
>globally
Try telling that our about 500 different "international" HEMA federations in Europe.

IFHEMA is probably the closest we have to an actual international federation.

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>>2943146
>Especially if the SCA continues to fall apart and bleeds members into HEMA. Like what happened to my club. Which was great.

Also on this. Too true. The SCA needs to adapt and stop living in its glory days. Same with Oly Fencing (I'm sure Classical Fencers are loving that).

Australia is unique in that we have the shittest parts of the US, Europe, Britain, etc.

... Not sure where I was going with that...

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>>2943508 see >>2943503

But yeah, I think one of the hallmarks of HEMA is that IT DOESN'T HAVE CENTRALISED AUTHORITY.

And tbqh I think it should stay that way. Like, I'd fight for it to stay that way.

North America has theirs.

Europe has theirs.

Asia (includes Australia and New Zealand) has theirs.

Etc, etc.

And I guess this is what >>2942975 was (in an ignorant way) pointing out. For all the great work the US has and continues to do, I just can't shake the feeling that there are some people who want to "own" HEMA... It's troubling.

>TL;DR: America, stop being the World Police of HEMA.

>>2943146
>I don't think it will be long before America becomes a serious HEMA scene.
So long as it doesn't position itself to become the self declared ONLY scene.

>>2943511
>Same with Oly Fencing (I'm sure Classical Fencers are loving that).
Is olympic fencing actually declining?
I've read about it a few times but all the sport fencers were like 'pfft, that's just bullshit propagated by haters'.
Has the time for the rise of HEMA finally come?

>>2943533
>Has the time for the rise of HEMA finally come?
It has Brother, but one of us must remain behind...

>>2943533
>Is olympic fencing actually declining?
>I've read about it a few times but all the sport fencers were like 'pfft, that's just bullshit propagated by haters'.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/6qn0bz/leon_paul_has_plans_to_create_feders_for_hema/

Leon Paul is hedging its bets senpai.

>>2943551
Oh, that's some fine stuff!

>>2943562
>Oh, that's some fine stuff!
Could be good if done right.
Could also fuck over a lot of people.
>i.e. Eastern European smiths who support themselves on the cost>effort ratio of feders.

>>2943634
Likely Leon Paul will work together with someone from the HEMA scene, like with their jackets and SPES.

>>2943696
I hope they do.
And this is the upside. They could do a lot of good.
If it was an American based company I'd be freaking out.

>there's still time for anyone who wants in on the market. Do it now...

>>2941128
>Our tournament scene is rapidly catching up to Europe's
LOUD KEK

t. Euro with rapier

>>2944114
Explain.

>>2944165
I've never seen a single American who could fence rapier for half a shit, vid or otherwise. Jerky-to-spastic movement, terrible attempts at stringering, everyone seems to think that fencing at half to 1/3 speed is legit, nobody can hold a guard properly, we won't even talk about the """destreza""". By all accounts US rapierists are a bunch of helpless oafs.

>>2943271
Close,
I want to cum inside Fight Camp

I'm making a fitness plan for my club members, and so far I've got basically SS for strength (bench, squat, deadlift), and uphill sprints for endurance. Anyone with more experience know what kind of workouts are effective specifically for HEMA?

>>2944270
Don't forget core

>>2940890
Oddly resembles Matt

>>2943419
Part "muh heritage" as the other guy said, combined with a dose of latent LARPiness.

Let's not forget that people in Europe also fool around with Viking-era things and other weapons that aren't covered in any literature.

Roland Warzecha springs to mind, but I think he separates the experimentation from the HEMA.

Most groups just spar with it for giggles and try to apply techniques from similar weapons that are covered in a treatise, i.e trying rotella techniques with a heater-shield.

So, who's going to Fightcamp?

>>2944583
Matt is cute. CUTE!

>>2944198
>By all accounts US rapierists are a bunch of helpless oafs.
Hush now you irrelevant country, when HEMA in the US finally comes good NO ONE is going to give two shits about you.
There's more people here.
There's more prestige here.
There's more tournaments here.
And there's more money here.

>>2944198
>we won't even talk about the """destreza""".
Who? The Martinez Academy? The only Destreza school that actually produced anything without trying to hide behind "Muh Secret Esoteric Circle".

>>2944270
Yeah, unless you're a PT or otherwise qualified DON'T MAKE GENERAL PROGRAMMING.

I suggest body and buddy weight, maybe therabands as well.

Weight lifting is up to them to do in their own time if they want to get even fitter.

>>2945060
>going anywhere near bongland
Sorry, I like my butter knives and not getting beheaded

Had my first saber session yesterday, damn that was fun!

>>2948045
Oh, and I had no clue that the grip being too thin or too thick can lead to cramps in the hand/fingers.
Finally I can train at home without having to pause after 20 or 30 cuts!

>>2948139
</dick jokes>

>>2947235
I shudder to think about what hema will become in the hands of people like you. Luckily there are reasonable people in the us too

>https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/6qv217/this_is_lp_hema_guy_jacek_bujko_amaa/
You can ask the Leon Paul HEMA guy things, maybe you'll even get answers

>>2944198
Could you show us an example of good rapier fencing?

>>2943519
Yeah, I'm really skeptical of all these wannabe governing associations. If they want to help out with insurance or template liability waivers, then great, but as soon as they start dictating behavior - codes of conduct or inclusiveness standards or whatever - it's all over; they may as well say "we're going to run your club for you, according to the whims of whatever crackpot gets elected this year."

>>2948448
IFHEMA makes a great job so far and is as democratic as it gets.

>>2948471
>IFHEMA makes a great job so far
Honest question, what are they even doing?
I've only read of their yearly(?) assemblies and that other countries also joined.
There was only the one IFHEMA cup in 2015 and that's it regarding activity.
Am I missing something?

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>>2937381
A small historical update on the French manuscript.
I was looking into the mysterious guy who is quoted by the son at p79. Personally, if I made zero effort, I'd read it as "Troischa", but of course that would be quite a strange name. A tempting answer is to read it as "Touche" and to link it with Philibert de la Touche who published a treatise in 1670, it would fit perfectly: it's the good time period considering the son wrote his part in 1664 and according to Daressy, la Touche was active since 1644. Quite a long shot but a man can dream.

Another interesting thing I found while browsing Daressy is this. A "Lescuier" was active in Paris as a master-at-arms in 1633 (Pierre the elder was born in 1600). Daressy (thanks this man really) joins a freaking copy of the signatures of the Paris masters dating of 1633 and we can see that Lescuier's signature is fairly close to Pierre's writing (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k743602/f103.image in the middle, at the left). We also know that Pierre made a certain number of demands for changing his name, trying to add some nobility to it (hence the "De Montarcis" in the end). His father was named "Montersij", apparently until he could name itself "De Montarcis", he referred to himself as "Lécuyer" or "Lescuier" (literally "the squire") since he served as a squire in the royal cavalry units and probably wanted to get so prestige out of this.
So is the Lescuier of Daressy the same as Pierre Baudouin de Montarcis? The dates are matching, the calligraphy is somehow matching too. It's a long shot again, but it could work.
One thing that is a bit troubling is that Pierre the elder never make any referrence to the typical french weapons of the period (that would be sword, sword and dagger, halberd, staff and greatsword), contrary to Desbordes for instance (1610). Then again, it's true that the text we have is just a draft for a bigger book and by the 1660's the polearms and greatsword were being gradually phased out.

>>2948528
They serve as a platform to support the goals of their members, mostly national federations from smaller European countries.
They help to coordinate efforts on an international level, help with national level problems, organize national and international events for research, training and competition.
They act as conciliation board for any beefs national federations might have with each others (Poland/Sweden hint hint).
They provide gear recommendations, safety standards, instructor training standards, refereeing and tournament rules.
They help acquiring official recognition for the movement, which helps getting subsidized training halls and insurance reasons.
Last but not least they act as protector of HEMA interests, just in case IFF wants to take over.

And so far they do a good job, like they respect the diversity and culture of HEMA.

>>2948582
post this to /r/wma as well pls

Keep up the great work Detective Anon.

>>2948584
>just in case IFF
And they do. They're bleeding and they want to pivot. Look at FIE as well. Fuck, even LP is in on it because some Polack sold out to make some more rubles.
>>2948448
>but as soon as they start dictating behaviour - codes of conduct or inclusiveness standards or whatever - it's all over
To an extent. If it's within your own country, I'm sure it's reflective of that particular country.
>BUT
But when the HEMAArseholes start trying to INTERFERE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES because THEY THINK IT SHOULD BE DONE THEIR way, they can fuck right off.

Who the fuck thought Michael "The Dictator" Chidester was a good idea?

IMO if I had to choose I'd throw my support behind IFHEMA.

>>2948582
>quite a strange name.
Troischa is a rare German surname

>>2948795
>IMO if I had to choose I'd throw my support behind IFHEMA.
this, they're probably the best deal we can get atm

>>2948843
>fully federal and democratic governing boards
>explicit goal to understand HEMA as martial art and not as solely as a martial sport, research is integral part of HEMA
>explicit goal to support autonomy and traditions of national associations
>a dozen yuro countries or so are already member
>headquarters is at Lausanne, established association according to swiss laws
>IOC and Court of Arbitration for Sport are within walking distance
whats not to like about them?

>>2948920
>whats not to like about them?
They're SOCIALIST and UN-AMERICAN

>>2948769
I don't have a login for reddit but re-post this and the translation as well out there if you want (as long as you don't take credit and give it where it's due...). I don't do it for myself solely anyway, so it's all good if it's put elsewhere.

>>2948804
I thought that what I see as a "tr" in the beginning might be a badly written "p" so that it could be understood as "pascha" but it's quite dubious, even though Pascha probably had links to the french fencing (considering he had a french approach of the staff), dates would match too. Don't see why it could be conveniently mis-written though. Thanks for the germanic reference nonetheless, I'll look deeper into it; I'm already seeing some "Troisch" so...


Then again, everything is mostly suppositions and I would guess that I'm wrong on most accounts. I need to check the sources on Pierre Baudouin's name changes but I think that he started to be named De Montarcis (à la française) in the 1630's, so my theory doesn't match. Plus "Lescuier" isn't particularly a rare name (it's not like squires where rare or anything), but it's still fun to think that way.

>>2948952
>UN-AMERICAN
so perfect for literally everything?

>>2948920
>>headquarters is at Lausanne, established association according to swiss laws
>>IOC and Court of Arbitration for Sport are within walking distance
I had no idea, that's very handy

>>2941128
>Seems someone was being a fedoralord and got b& when they talked about cultural marxism or using the sword of their ancestors, or harassed women and brown people

Kek
Maybe, but I've seen many people being banned for simply disagreeing, or for pissing off a particularly insecure mod. And most were given no warning

HEMAA has some shit mods, and the backlash theyre getting shouldnt be brushed off.

>>2949111
>HEMAA has some shit mods, and the backlash they're getting shouldn't be brushed off.
Which is a damn shame, because so many of them are amazing researchers or practitioners who are very open.
But alas, one or two special snowflakes and they full "shut it down" mode.
The victim mentality is killing America. rip

>>2948448
>Could you show us an example of good rapier fencing?
anybody? genuinely interested

>>2950121
not one of those anons, but swordfish maybe?

>>2950144
I'm not sure whether the guy bitching about shitty American fencing would think the Swordfish stuff is any good. I'd like to find out, though. Are you there, bitchy Euroman?

>>2950121
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNkLgLyzTos
I don't know shit about rapier, I just find this friendly sparring good looking.

Hey guys, I'd just like to thank you anons for keeping me sane about HEMA.

Honestly most of the HEMA communities out there are on Facebook, or centered around clickbaitey youtubers, and it's nice to have a place like this without all that nonsense. Keeps me going in trying to get my country's HEMA scene caught up with the rest of the world.

>>2950798
>my country's HEMA scene
Which country are you in?

>>2951618
Morocco

>>2951646
>Morocco
Oh boy. What's the HEMA population like there?

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>>2950798
>trying to get my country's HEMA scene caught up with the rest of the world.
So Australian then?
You guys have potential, I just don't understand how you keep fucking it up.

Any austrian or german bros here?
Do you plan on going to the Salzburg championships?

>>2951797
1, soon to be 0.

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>>2953083
>1, soon to be 0

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Do black koning gloves even exist?
I've never seen anyone, not even online, who has them.
I guess the pictures only exist to coax people into buying the actually existing colors?

>>2953312
>>2953312
>>2953312
new thread

>>2953300
Matt Easton has a pair. Seems to be a later version/production run. He has a video about them where he wears them.

>>2953083
Hang in there fellow anon, things will get better, eventually (and hopefully).
Quite curious about what part of HEMA you're into btw... if it isn't too indiscreet.

>>2949124
You seem smart enough to undestand a very basic rule -

Good practitioners dont make good mods

And its starting to showing more and more