CGA graphics weren't as ugly as we think

Still looks like shit.

>63 views

When will you faggots stop shilling your channels?

>>3127984
cool

I mean yeah it's better than people give it credit for, but it's definitely shit. The different video modes are still too limited to be anything but awful; it'd be equally good to do greyscale with those palettes.

It's no better or worse than the Apple II but at the same time, FOAD and quit shilling your vids, Trixter, you fat unemployed 40 year old neckbeard. I know it's you.

>>3127991
It says 215,323 views. I'm not OP and have watched this guy before.

RGB FAGS BTFO

>>3127991
I saw this video because Carmack tweeted it. Even he didn't know about these modes.

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Cool. I never knew this was possible.

I will be sure to check your channel for more videos.

Does DOSbox have a composite filter?

>>3127984
Dat Moire Pattern. The monitor segments need to be filtered, bad.

>>3127984
where's the heat sink?

>>3128074
Looks like 90% of that thing is TTL or something. Ain't no significant heat comin' of that thing.

>>3128045
>I will be sure to check your channel for more videos.
>Does DOSbox have a composite filter?
Yes but it doesn't support the 320x200 variant of it.

>>3127984
>we
Speak for yourself faggot. It's just as shitty as I remember.

>>3128045
Why do you all keep saying OP is the guy in the video. He has over 250,000 subscribers. I've already seen this video and I am subscribed to him.

>>3127984
>1:14

That's EGA, not VGA, dude.

Also holy god is this guy's voice annoying.

I notice also he's apparently unaware that in Mode 6, you can change the foreground color to anything you like or that Color 6 (brown) is actually dark yellow and the monitors just change it to brown.

If he wanted a game that really looks like shit in CGA, Indy and the Last Crusade. If you run it with the composite output, it's full of red and blue stripes.

>composite signal abuse

Neat to see someone explain this to the masses.

On the original IBM PC, the motherboard has a trimmer cap which is used to sync the NTSC burst to the composite signal. If it's not adjusted properly, then you'll just get a B&W picture and based on my experience, every TV seems to be a little different in where it expects the color burst to be.

How did NEC manage to produce a graphics chip that could handle 640x200@8 colors and 640x400@2 in 1981?

>>3128176
It's not that complicated since the graphics are just a frame buffer with no sprites or scrolling.

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I've always found how many graphics modes old DOS games had very interesting. People all over were playing the same port of the same game, with different results.

>>3127984
interesting video, /CRT would love this

>>3128194
It wasn't very fun if you had to program that shit.

>>3128021
It is better than the Apple ][ actually

Try watching Part 2 of the video before you sound off m8

>>3128141
The dude is using a Commodore 1901 monitor - since this wasn't a PC display, it lacks the circuitry to change dark yellow to red.

Roberta Williams reputedly called the CGA palette "ghastly" after seeing the PC port of Wizard and the Princess running for the first time.

>>3128314
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/238983-hi-res-adventure-2-the-wizard-and-the-princess-apple-ii-screenshot.png

http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc-booter/hi-res-adventure-2-the-wizard-and-the-princess/screenshots/gameShotId,239001/

I can kind of see her point...

>>3128321
How do you get white text on an Apple II?

>>3128314

The CGA palettes were chosen for business applications so not surprising it wasn't great for artwork.

>>3128330
It's using Mode 2 which is split graphics/text. This causes the bottom 20% of the screen to use text mode while the top half uses bitmap mode. Typing HGR in BASIC throws the computer into split screen mode while HGR2 throws it into normal bitmap mode.

>>3128330
Actually the colors were picked simply because they're complimentary. Cyan compliments pink and red compliments green, and then white/yellow was just added for a third color.

>>3128314
>>3128321
>>3128308
Since the game would have come out in 1982, this was before IBM had the 5153 monitors out so whatever display Sierra used was either composite or a third party RGB monitor that just displayed dark yellow instead of brown. Some of these monitors (eg. the NEC PC-8801 display) also lacked an intensity pin meaning they can only display 8 colors.

With the 5153, IBM added a circuit to reduce the green component in color 6 which changed it to brown. Most CGA monitors afterwards did likewise, also IBM retained the brown color 6 on EGA/VGA. Monitors like the Commodore 1901 were not designed with PCs in mind so they still display it as yellow.

>>3128362
>>3128321
Actually the emulator used to take the screenshot is inaccurate since a real Apple II would have color fringing around the text in split mode (remember that the NTSC burst is enabled here). If you were in straight text mode, the burst is off so this doesn't happen.

>>3128372

That's exactly the point. High contrast, not beauty.

>>3128393
You said it had to do with business graphics and now you say it was for contrast.

>>3128396

Business graphics = high contrast, readability

>>3128396
What'd you suppose was important for business graphics?

>>3128405
accurate reproduction of the colors of your company's logo. Also, slide shows.

>>3128398
*shakes head* Actually it was just for simplicity of design. In fact the Apple II uses the same setup of complimentary colors (green, purple, orange, blue, black, and white) and Steve Wozniak was hardly thinking of business stuff at all, he just wanted to play games.

Reminds me of the thread where the guy was arguing how 80s-looking the CGA/EGA palette is when actually it was just done for engineering purposes not out of some warped 80s fashion statement.

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>>3128413
>*shakes head*

>>3128417
80s fashion was all about engineering

CGA is too low-res to be usable for business graphics anyway.

>>3128427
what graphics mode of the time was more suitable?

>>3128427

It was for charts, dumbass.

>>3128434
After the Hercules card comes out during 82, that had enough resolution for business graphics. CGA was more designed as a typical home computer display of the time.

If you wanted to do stuff like CAD design, that was all done with expensive workstations costing $10,000. The early AutoCAD versions on the PC were mostly a novelty and it wasn't until the very end of the 80s when PCs were powerful enough for CAD.

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>>3128459
CGA handled CAT design just fine

Partially correct. In fact the classic DOS versions of Lotus 123 all supported dual monitor mode which meant that you could have two video cards and display text on a monochrome display and graphs on a color display. The very first version of Lotus (released in early 83) only supported text mode, CGA, and mono/CGA dual mode. As more video standards appeared, these were added on and IIRC they began supporting Hercules within a few months of the first Lotus release.

Lotus 123 was a big factor in moving Hercules cards since you got much sharper graphs (albeit at the expense of color) plus sharper text and no need for two cards/monitors.

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Lotus was one of those software devs that ruled the 80s but they couldn't survive the transition into the 90s. These later versions of 123 from the 486 era were not a success and Microsoft Excel had taken over the spreadsheet market by this time.

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>>3128450

Monochrome isn't so great for pie charts though, higher res or no.

>>3128506
not like 4 colors are much better. At higher res in monochrome you could use dithering.

>>3128509

There's nothing stopping you from using dithering under CGA, and having more colors multiplies its effectiveness even at low resolution. Color is also naturally easier to differentiate visually than patterns.

You could use higher resolution and put a snowy black/white dither against a slightly snowier one, but it'll still be easier to tell apart, for example, cyan/magenta and cyan/black even if both are under the same pattern.

>>3128526
Like I said, one of the advantages of Hercules was that you got high-res graphics plus text in one card. Many people were willing to forsake color rather than look at the CGA card's Lego Block 8x8 text.

>>3128526
>There's nothing stopping you from using dithering under CGA
resolution

>Color is also naturally easier to differentiate visually than patterns
When you dither, you don't want to "differentiate patterns". Dithering relies on high resolution, where you don't see the pattern but instead the resulting shade

>>3128531
>resolution
doesn't look pretty but can still be done
>you don't see the pattern but instead the resulting shade
that just makes color mixing/shading all the more useful than shades of just b&w

>>3128529

They tended to do that just to save money. Doubly so when the revision with a parallel port onboard came out.

>>3128468
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAs64xbFlys

The original Atari port is actually much better but also quite obscure compared to the PC.

>>3128541
Hercules cards always had a parallel port on them; in fact that was part of the original IBM MDA spec.

>>3128539
>that just makes color mixing/shading all the more useful than shades of just b&w
resolution on CGA is on the low end for effective dithering

>>3128543
>better
How so?

>>3128552
Didn't you actually watch the video? It's vastly above the PC port for color, sound, fluidity of the animation, and graphics effects.

>>3128559
so, not really better? Ok. Thought it fixed some bugs or added stages or something

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>>3128551
>implying dithering needs high resolutions

>>3128572
GB has considerably higher dpi

>>3128561
>Thought it fixed some bugs
What bugs would be fixed? The Atari version was written in 6502 asm and the PC port in x86 asm. They would have been reprogrammed from scratch and didn't share any of the same code base.

>>3128597
>What bugs would be fixed?
No idea. Anon said it's better, but didn't show anything to confirm that.

>>3128603
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkj71R16kVQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdKfG6VKLt0

You be the judge.

>>3128578
But the viewing distance is typically much closer, and the Super Game Boy exists.

>people being impressed by common trivia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNRO7lno_DM

step it up

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>yfw this is what passed for computer gaming in America
Sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMf0I_TyMsc

Complete with digitized speech.

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>>3128631
Fixed.

>>3127984
Yeah I had that graphics card. I tried connecting the composite to my TV once. Looked flickery and wrong, but I'm in a PAL region.

>>3128076
>Looks like 90% of that thing is TTL or something. Ain't no significant heat comin' of that thing.
What's TTL and why would it emit less heat?

>>3128676
>What's TTL and why would it emit less heat?
Wikipedia, and because it does very little that causes heat

>>3128680
Fuck you then.

>>3128676
They can't display color on a PAL TV at all because the color generation completely depends on NTSC trickery.

>>3128667
Might as well move Wizardry to the Japanese games. CGA Wizardry is just a shitty port of their version.

>>3128682
That's what I thought after watching that video.

If only that small bit in the bottom corner is the video RAM, what the hell are the rest of the chips for? They look like RAM or some such.

>>3129182
I think those chips are both VRAM and ROM characters, for the ASCII set.

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>>3128676
TTL is a popular logic family.

A logic family physically implements boolean algebra and is characterized by the semiconductor devices it is composed of. There are lots of different types of logic families (CMOS, etc) that vary in how they encode signals (voltage or current) and how they operate on a fundamental level (Insert Quantum shit here), but they all serve to implement boolean algebra at the end of the day.

I will admit, I'm not an expert on semiconductor processes, so take this with a grain of salt. TTL uses low voltages. TTL also doesn't draw a significant amount of current in steady state (0->0, 1->1). It only really draws an appreciable amount when changing state (0->1, 1->0). Physics says that the amount of power (P in (W)atts) dissipated as heat is equal to the current (I in (A)mps) times voltage (V in (V)olts).

P=IV

As power is only really consumed when switching, switching is brief, and TTL uses low voltages and currents, the amount of heat per switch is tiny. Even when operating at it's fastest of up to ~MHz frequencies, TTL doesn't need any real consideration to cooling.

Anyway, TTL was popular because it was easy to work with. Furthermore a whole catalog of TTL DIP chips implementing everything from basic logic gates to accumulators, registers, timers, and RAMs made making a microprocessor from scratch totally doable.

>>3129182
Most of the chips on OPs graphics card are probably simple logic gates, like ANDs, ORs, and XORs. It's weird that the VRAM chips (composed of thousands of circuit elements) are the same size as 4 AND gates.

>>3129232
>DIP
Dual In-line Package. The chips with rows of legs on two sides. As opposed to chips that have their legs on all four sides, or the whole underside

>>3129182
It's a giant mass of TTL chips. Most clone CGA cards had a lot smaller chip count than the original IBM card.

The original Apple II/II+ was made entirely out of TTL logic and later on with the IIe, Apple started using custom ICs to reduce chip count and also prevent cloning.

>>3129232
Nice explanation thanks. I dabble with electronics (Arduino, shift registers, LED matrices, etc) so that may well come in useful. I kind of feel now that I shouldn't have thrown away all my old boards, as the logic gates might have come in handy for something later on down the line. Maybe not, who knows....

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Hold on there, game. Dddddid yyyyyyou say Bbbbbruce Jenner?

Oh...god...

>>3129310
It was a more innocent time, the 80s. They couldn't have known...

>>3129275
Except for the 6502, of course, which was made out of 6502.

>>3129523
6502 of what? finish your statement

>>3129531
>herpingderpy-doo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_6502

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>>3129310
You are allowed to acknowledge that transgender people were previously known in the public eye by other names, e.g., the Wachowski brothers or pic related. Nice straw feminist tho

>>3129594
barely 4/5th the processor the three years older 8008 is, pathetic

>>3129613
>the Wachowski brothers
I know, what the fuck was that shit about? First the one which was pretty mad, then the other one. Surreal.

>>3129619
artists. Don't look for sanity or reason. Good movies though, occasionally

>>3129232

Complex ICs of the era rarely produced enough heat to require their own heat sink, let alone that TTL logic.

Even my old 20MHz 386 required no heat sink whatsoever.

>>3129617

And yet it was still far cheaper to buy than the 8008. The 6502 was very low cost and that made it the bang-for-buck champion for years.

>>3129629
That's like buying 4/5th of a car and claiming you got a bargain. Everybody can see you only have one headlight, the steering wheel only goes one way and the doors are missing.

>>3129617
When one costs $30 and the other $200 I think I can live with that difference.

>>3129637
Car analogies a shit

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>>3129637
>"You think your Commodore 64 is pretty neat-o"
>"But what kind a chip it got? A Dorito?"

>>3129617
You realize the 6502 cost less than 20% of the price of its contemporaries, right?

>>3129653
>one costs $30 and the other $200
They both cost cents

>>3129653
>Car analogies a shit
Your prcssor a shit. See? It's only 80% of the real thing, and it's completely useless

>>3129660
Of course it costs less. It's incomplete, and they knew it when they made it. Can you really justify the price though when you're missing over 1500 of the real thing?

The maniac mansion thing blew my mind.

>>3129653

More like $25 vs $300. The MOS chip was originally devised as a cost-reduced 6800, which was still going for around $300 when they got to market.

>>3129665
>They both cost cents

Hahaha oh wow, get a load of this millennial.

>>3129679
of all the nonsense I said this is the one you point out? Damn.

>>3129629
>Complex ICs of the era rarely produced enough heat to require their own heat sink, let alone that TTL logic.
>Even my old 20MHz 386 required no heat sink whatsoever.

When did home computer processors start using heatsinks?

When did home computer processors start using HS plus fan?

Old computers always had noisy PSU fans.

If you block the fan with a chopstick you will notice a burning smell 20-30 minutes later so that is not good.

I want to wire in a resistor to the power lead of a PSU fan.

I think PSU fans use 12volts.

What voltage will make the fan less noisy but still cool the PSU?

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>>3129747

>>3129747
>When did home computer processors start using heatsinks?

Pentium era

>When did home computer processors start using HS plus fan?

Pentiums over ~133MHz

>>3127984
This guy needs a voice coach. His vocal fry is annoying as fuck.

>>3128176
They kind of HAD to, considering kanji's existence.

When Ken Williams from Sierra went to Japan, he was really impressed by the computers they had, and he suspected it was because of the resolution required to print kanji.

>>3128631
>>3128667
>it's a yuropoors shill their shovelware machines with terrible clones of japanese games episode

>>3127984
You can't tell me whether or not something is as ugly as I think because what I think is what I think and if I think you're a fucking gaylord then god damn you ARE A FUCKING GAYLORD!

>>3129789
You can't tell me whether or not someone is as gaylordish as I think because what I think is what I think and if I think you're an autistic wankmonkey then god damn you ARE AN AUTISTIC WANKMONKEY!

>>3129797
I will fucking curb stomp you if you reply to me without permission again.

>>3129802
I will fucking reply to you without permission again, should you ever threaten to curb stomp me for replying to you without permission.

>>3129802
>>3129804
Ladies please

>>3129804
*pushes you to the ground*

You messed with the wrong poster mother fucker.

*raises betsy*
*smashes your f*ckin brains in*
*wipes blood off face*

Fucking punks never give me a break.

you faggots and your youtube bullshit holy fuck you're gay

>>3129812
Says the queer who pounded my tight boipussy until he was dry last night.

>>3129807
>presses a button that makes you expand, then shrink to nothing while rotating, like a Mode 7 boss on a SNES game
>there is no body so, not only can murder not be proven, but your family can't even have proper closure with something to bury
>still, they erect a memorial but I do a massive shit on it every anniversary of your unprovable death until your mum has a nervous breakdown in 2023

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What is going on in this thread?

>>3129769
When did graphics cards start using heatsinks?

When did graphics cards start using HS plus fans?

When did motherboards start being able to control fan speed based on temps?

When did Intel CPUs start using fancy plastic methods of clamping the CPU to the mobo instead of the simple AMD metal strap method?

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>>3129847
>[raging externaly ]

>>3128681
>>>/out/
Go get triggered by reality, summerfags.

>>3129832
>>3129847

>>>/google it/
Spoonfeeding is cancer.

>>3129783
>>3128667
>>3128827
>>>/a/
>>>/out/

>>3129774
And no sense of humor either.

>>3127984
This is really fascinating. I was reading the Wikipedia article about the CGA standard a few weeks ago, and even though they mentioned the alternate color pallets and the 16 color mode, I didn't see anything about the composite dithering technique for getting more colors. I always thought CGA looked like shit but this makes so much sense.

There's one other point rarely mentioned, which is that CGA games tend to not run properly on VGA because of the refresh rate difference (60hz vs 70hz).

>>3128330
>The CGA palettes were chosen for business applications so not surprising it wasn't great for artwork.
Maybe they were also chose as they were because the whole dithering trick was meant to be from the start. Cyan, magenta and yellow is also the color scheme used by process color/CMYK with printing presses in order to achieve basically every other color they'd want.