/vgcg/ - VGC General

second for FUCK snorlax

>>32048951
So back to the subject of spread moves doing 75% damage, how long has that been the case in vgc? Is that a recent nerf? What's the point of this? A spread move in singles that can only target one Pokemon does 100% of the damage calculated off of it's base stats, ivs, and evs, but when it's able to take advantage of its spread feature it only does 75% of it's damage, that seems really strange. This really neuters decent non- stab coverage like dazzling gleam and rock slide, making them effectively 60 and 56 bp respectively. Does anyone feel this is beneficial or a necessary evil? And if so why do you defend your really strange format? Who makes the rules for this shit? I cosign it because I want to fucking win at any cost, but this shit is absurd.

>>32049192
One other thought, wouldn't the best way to promote pokemon to casuals, normies, or noobs be to hold consisentant game operations between formats?

>earthquake is an awesome stab option with 100 base bp
>but it's not gonna do that damage in vgc
>buff Garchomp, it doesn't need Dd, give it high horse power to have a real stab option in vgc!

Bonkers

>>32049192
>how long has that been the case in vgc? Is that a recent nerf?

It was made when double battles were introduced, so gen 3.

>but when it's able to take advantage of its spread feature it only does 75% of it's damage, that seems really strange

It doesn't for me. Like, the Pokemon have so much more room in a double battle and are put farther from each other, so it's only natural that the damage gets reduced when it reaches the targets; it's not a 1v1 combat with Pokemon facing each other at a very close range.

This was made more for balance purposes though, since having a fully powered move hit everything on the field instead of just one thing would be really overpowered.

>And if so why do you defend your really strange format?

Because it's really fun. I tried playing singles for over 8 years; Smogon's tiers, BS ladders, friends' 6v6, you name it, but all of them felt boring after a while, especially since they started introducing a bunch of abilities and moves that are literally useless in singles. Also, in singles luck is much more of a factor since the battles are longer and you're almost forced to use the high-powered, low accuracy moves because it's a Pokemon alone against another.

Many Pokemon are also completely useless in singles, like almost all the Aloladex, yet in VGC they can find their niche because they have partners to help them, and I find that really awesome and makes me want to explore more Pokemon to find what works for them, something that can barely be done in singles.

I'm not shitting on singles though, it's just not for me.

>Who makes the rules for this shit?

Now here comes the weird part: The rules are made by the TCG higher-ups. Yes, you heard that right: The TCG rulers control the videogame's format. They literally know nothing about the game too, so that just makes it even more annoying. I mean, just look at the rule revisions about shinies and ball legality; they're ridiculous.

>>32049192

Spread moves have dealt reduced damage since double battles debuted in RSE. It's a trade off. You get to hit both targets, but it does less damage as a result.

>>32049423
I understand your prerogative. It is fun, but Pokemon is run in almost all formats. Even battle spot singles can be fun, but damage getting dealt differently is fucking weird, and worse it's unspoken. I went to St. Louis believing a Xurkitree's dazzling gleam could necessarily ohko an assault vested garchomp because i damaged calculated on showdown. Had I know it'd only do 75% its damage I would have brought a Lele or an entirely different team. Fucking with base power is silly and head canon justifications don't make sense. It is a fun format, but it's subtleties are very odd.

>>32048951
>tfw when you lose to a girl in a children videogame

>>32049491
Pokemon barely explains most of the competitive mechanics and it's really fucking hard to get started in the competitive world, it's no wonder that nobody can consider it an eSport. Worst thing is, it will stay exactly like this because it's a children game first, and a competitive game second.

>>32049491

Not the anon you're replying to, but I think the subtleties are what makes the format fun. Just the inclusion of Protect in the format gives you a lot to think about in the short term, such as when your opponent is likely to Protect, when you should or should not Protect yourself, what you can punish the opponent's Protect (especially in this year's format where self-buffing Pokemon are better than they have been in years). There's lots of little intricacies that a player can consider or utilize, and that's what makes the format fun to me.

Singles probably has its own subtleties as well, like trying to move into position over several turns to win. I haven't played singles beyond a few randbats since Smogon banned Garchomp back in D/P, so unfortunately I don't have much of a reference for what they are.

>>32049491
Nigga this shit has been on the game since 3rd fucking gen. Since double battles were introduced. Because if you can hit two Pokemon at the same time there has to be a trade-off.

Don't blame the game for your ignorance of the mechanics.

>It's a singlesfag who doesn't know jackshit about doubles and comes to spout his ignorant opinions as fact episode

>>32049480
That's just conditioning. Rock slide is hardly justifiable at full power. All this does is further narrow viability, i've been arguing for years that the best way to slow power creep in 6v6 is not bst boosts, but access to more diverse move pools opening greater niches. Taking moves that have interesting dynamics to them and lessening their power doesn't seem to make sense. It deters carrying different moves because they struggle to surpass the damage output of stab options, making some mons really narrow and others unviable. I know this doesn't matter to much in shit mons the format, which comes the first year of every GEN, but when the gates open to megas and future power creep, you're gonna wish Bulu could justify rock slide, or Charizard X could justify earthquake.

>>32049491
All I'm reading here is that you think Garchomp's Earthquakes, Xerneas's Dazzling Gleam, Groudon's Precipice Blades, Kyogre's Water Spout, Torkoal's Eruption, Gigalith's Rock Slides, Heatran's Heat Waves and Ninetale's Blizzards are all too weak and need to be buffed.

>>32049491
I'm pretty sure it's said in the game

>>32049547
>but when the gates open to megas and future power creep,
You know this has already happened in previous years and everyone handled it just fine? Even last year when big legends were allowed?

Why are you coming in here acting all condescending about a format you clearly know nothing about?

>>32049531
I'm not blaming the game, i'm calling it a shit mechaninc. It was a mechanic that predates the physical/special split. Was that a poor adjustment?

>>32049547
You're making it sound like coverage spread moves do literally no damage. Also, you have a partner Pokemon at your side; if you really need to KO something, use it too. Double targetting is a thing that you should do more often if you really fear a certain Pokemon from your opponent. It's not a 1v1 battle anymore.

>>32049547
>That's just conditioning. Rock slide is hardly justifiable at full power.
Are you sure you're still talking about Doubles?

Because Rock Slide is and still continues to be one of the most overpowered moves in the format.

I've lost count how many important games have all been decided by people randomly slapping on Rock Slide and spamming it.

>>32049530
Move subtleties are good. Protect, feint, quash are all great, hidden damage output not so much

>>32049583
I'm starting to believe we are getting baited.

>>32049569
yeah, a 100 power move that deals damage to all opponents with barely any drawbacks is truly a shit mechanic.
take your weak bait somewhere else

>>32049587
>Hidden Damage Output
I agree that there needs to be more comprehensive in-game tutorials on competitive battling, since going from single-player to competitive Pokémon must be one of the biggest and least helpful differences in any single- and multi-player game, but it's certainly less 'hidden' than a lot of other game mechanics. Double battle damage reduction is definitely mentioned by NPCs in multiple games.
By comparison, I don't remember any NPCs telling me 'basic' things like how many stat points EVs and IVs give, the fact that move damage has a random damage roll, or even any mention of how the order of Fake Out, Extremespeed, Quick Guard and Quick Attack would work.

Competitive Pokémon is quite clearly restricted to people who can be bothered to spend the time looking up fan material online, but your one example of it really is nothing special.

>>32048951
>Beta nu-male gets beaten by a superior asian well dressed qt

>>32049681
>tfw go to Melbourne hoping for a good run, you want the title after coming so close in london
>borrow the team of the smogon admin that's wrecking shit in the USA
>everything goes well, you make it to day2 easily
>you're required to compile a teamsheet
>np, I know my team well
>judges call you
>there's a discrepancy in the teamsheet
>you wrote your kartana had protect but it has detect instead
>you are forced to play the rest of the tournament with 5 mons AND start the first round with a game loss
>tournament over
>except you come back and claim the first round
>then the guy that gave you your team destroys you by playing the complete verison
>but you still manage to win another round
>you're in top8
>you win the top8 match against a top german player
>and then you win the semifinal after two terribly close games
>all of this while playing a crippled team, you're basically on god mode
>get to the final
>and lose to a random azn grill coming out of nowhere that reached top8 with a negative record in day2 and had a free game in top8 because her opponent (the 1st seed) dropped because he had to go back to his homeland
I wonder how he felt at that moment

>>32049858
oh, and on top of that, his top4 opponent had just beaten the complete version of that team in top8.

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>>32049858

>>32049655
>By comparison, I don't remember any NPCs telling me 'basic' things like how many stat points EVs and IVs give
I always think about this when commentators say something like "depends on how he trained his pokemon". I have a feeling TPCI forbids them from saying anything about EVs or IVs, like how they're supposed to say KO/faint instead of kill.

>>32049655
>>32049980
EVs and IVs have never been officialy acknowledged. We mainly know of they and how they work due to datamining. While newer games have shown more about their existance ingame in different ways I'm pretty sure that TPCI actually forbids the commentary on such things.

>>32050092
well, they have been acknowledged in the game but they are not called like that

>>32048951
Zoe Lou won the Wolfe Glick
And is a girl, WOW!

>>32049858
>I wonder how he felt at that moment
don't fuck up your team sheets, kids

>Cybertron Top 64
All that Melbourne International money went to waste.

>>32050216
He's just a shit player. He literally only has fans because of his channel.

>>32050241
Cybertron is just a chokemaster.

>>32048951
Why is she so perfect?

>>32049858
you know everyone is just going to pretend that stuff didn't happen because it's better PR to say random player came out of nowhere and stomped people

>>32050312
History is written by winners lad.

>>32050312
well she did play very well in top4 and the final was totally deserved, I think it just makes a good story about vgc: a consistent player getting close to an important victory by overwhelming terrible condition (but not winning, so that he's still hungry for more) and a random girl that has a wonderful run despite not being known at all in the vgc circlejerk. It tells at the same time that it is a game that rewards consistency and skill and that anyone can pick it up and win tournaments if they're good enough.

>>32049858
>a random player
she played well and won, it was deserved, who cares if she's new. everybody starts being "a random player", no need to treat them as if that was bad thing.
also
>still making mistakes on the team sheet

>>32050460
I wasn't implying that it was a bad thing, actually it's great when new people show up. I just wanted to make it sound more heartbreaking for the poor guy

>>32050460
If you consider yourself good at something it'll always be a kick in the balls when someone no one has ever heard about comes in and beats you. No one is saying that it is bad that she won because she was a random, we are talking about how the guy must have felt.

>>32050510
I don't think it makes a difference. I mean is the final, whoever you're playing is most likely skilled. I consider myself fairly good, and losing against someone skilled I know or someone skilled I don't know makes absolutely no difference to me.
If he had lost because of hax then I'd understand feeling 'worse', but it's not the case so I'd assume he would have felt the same losing against Ben Kyriakou, Tman or Sebas

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>>32048951

>>32051693
How's the Argie 5th if he ended up dropping?

http://pokemonaustralia.com/vgc17-staples-guide-march-update/

>>32051798
>tapu fini with more """"metagame importance"""" than tapu koko

the fuck is this shit?

>>32051912
They're still stuck in early February it seems.

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Meanwhile in BRland

>>32052123
I see shoma's influence

>>32051693
>Arcanine on every team

My boy is finally getting his moment in the spotlight

>>32055219
Arcanine is just so good in this meta, a strong, bulky intimidate-user that can have so many different sets. No surprise that it appears so often in top cut.

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>>32049423
>rule revisions about shinies and ball legality

The only thing I know out of something like that is how none of the shiny locked pokemon are allowed and ball legality seems self-explanatory.What kind of new nonsense did they implement this time?

>>32055219
the meta would honestly be a broken mess if arcanine didn't exist

>>32051759
He finished the highest in Swiss out of the players who didn't make top 4.

>>32051693
Intimidate Incineroar when?

They should release it early to spice up the Arcanine meta

>>32056094
It's not like you can't use it now, Incineroar is still a pretty solid bulky Fire type if you can live without the Intimidate.

>>32056180
But clearly not good enough to compete with Arcanine, Intimidate will be a game changer

>>32056205
>Intimidate will be a game changer
Realistically how much will it change? I don't think it's as big as you think it'd be.

Assuming it does get it's HA Arcanine is a little less fat and weaker not by much but a lot faster with a far superior movepool.

Incineroar's boons are it is a Dark type that doesn't get annihilated by Fairies and it learns Fake Out, U-Turn, Leech Life and Taunt. Everything else it does get Arcanine gets in some form as well and more.

At best Intimidate will let it maybe survive a EQ here and there but it still loses to Sash Kartana variations due to the dual type and is so slow it can actually lose to faster Celesteela's. At the same time it's too fast to actually go full TR.

So if you're not already using it for the above reasons then even with Intimidate people would still use the dog. I think it's overrated because the reason to use Incineroar is typing.

>>32056278
Nigga Intimidate + Fake Out is and will forever be fucking god-tier.

Do you see Hitmontop? He'd be a total shitmon without Intimidate, but the little fucker always managed to be relevant, why? Because fucking Intimidate.

On this meta that's starved for Fire types one that's bulky as fuck, can take a hit, can hit back hard and can support you hard with Intimidate + Fake out will be super good yes or yes. Saying otherwise is fucking delusional.

>>32056317
calm down bro it's just a game

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>>32056579

>>32056317
Intimidate + Fake Out wasn't everything for Hitmontop otherwise Scrafty should've been as common. It was relevant because it also had a strong Fighting STAB, Feint, Quick/Wide Guard and HH on top of all of that and less weaknesses.

Incineroar is already decent and it will be better but it doesn't change the fact it'll still be outclassed by Arcanine even if the HA somehow gets released before next year when Land-T will be flipping us off again.

This is also the first Gen ever where we have a certain pink little shit running around who just flips off every Fake Out in existence by simply staring at you and Arc happens to speed tie it.

A look at the current state of the Doubles stats where Hitmontop is literally non-existent whilst Lele is prancing around like a goddess just kind of shows Fake Out isn't a big deal this Gen.

>>32056317
Sorry if the truth about your baracat hurts you so much.

>>32056643
t. buttmad owlfag

>>32056607
Scrafty was more common in regular doubles, Hitmontop was only better in 2016 because it fit the legendary meta better. They are both great only because of that combo. Their declined usage in doubles this gen is more to do with Fairy being everywhere rather than Lele blocking Fake Out, 92% of Mega Kangs still use it for example.

>outclassed by Arcanine
Arcanine will still be more common but thinking it outclasses a very different Pokemon is retarded

>>32056607
Not that anon, but:
* Even without Feint or Wide Guard, as you said, Incineroar already holds its own niche. With Intimidate released, that would be more than enough reason to use it over Arcanine.

* Unlike Top and Scrafty, Incineroar isn't weak to Fairy

>252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 280-330 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even with max investment and Specs, she can't OHKO Incineroar with Moonblast. Not to mention Incineroar is inmune to Psychic.
Of course, Arcanine resists Moonblast, but that's another difference between them.

I think both will see a lot usage, they don't really outclass each other.

I'll never get why people think THEY HAVE ONE SIMILARITY THAT MEANS THEY ARE TOTALLY EQUAL AND ONE OUTCLASSES THE OTHER

I like that with their HAs primarina and incineroar will be pretty good, but decidueye gets shafted. I don't have that negative of an opinion of the bird, but those glasses completely butchered the design for me, and the fact that there's another grass/ghost that outshines it, hell, two of them, makes it even more hilarious.
Liquid voice will be rather nice, but I wish there was more than just hyper voice to use it with it. Unless we magically get a boomburst tutor and primarina somehow can learn that, which would be further hilarious with some water absorb/storm drain shenanigans you could pull.

>>32056832
the fuck?

https://twitter.com/APL_VGC/status/841281465069514754

>Let's calculate the spots for a inter-continental tourney only on the people we know are on just one country
Quality BR tournament organization

>>32056278
Intimidate Incineroar would have been great in very early meta when marowak and oranguru were still around and kicking. If it was released now it would still see less usage than arcanine because lele killed priorities and it can't freely switch into kartana.

>>32058810
That's why you should never trust these events to be run by TCG-obsessed idiots.

>>32059788
Have they learned nothing from gordion knot?

>>32059788
>>32059805
Reminder that VGC doesn't even make one quarter of what TCG makes. That TCG get preferential treatment is not a surprise in the least and it happens even outside BRland where TCG gets twice as much in prize support and sometimes with even less people required to hit the prize benchmarks.

>>32059809
your post almost killed the thread

>>32058810
what's wrong

>>32056607

Fake out is just waiting for Mega Kang to come back. Plus if genies are back, VGC2018 will probably be CHALK teams all over again.

Up you go

>>32062310
last time I checked the doubles ladder usage stats Kang was slightly less popular than Charizard and Mence.

>>32064666
It's less popular than even Lele.

The entire meta is basically Lele plus one of her interchangeable toyboys between Chomp, Land-T or Char-Y.

M-Khan is like 7th now and has been continuing to drop consistently every few weeks.

>>32065644
>check usage stats for battle spot doubles
>chomp and p2 in top 10 usage

what gives? they were the same stat-wise in 2015 but outclassed to hell and back by lando and cress. why are they good now

I just had an opponent DC on me because he tried to WoW with a Fini at the side of his Marowak, then tried to use Extreme Speed on my low health Lele while its terrain was up.

Can't believe it's fucking March and people are still forgetting what each terrain does.

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>>32068507
wolfey looks like he has downs and yoshi looks like he was lobotomized

>>32066476
In the case of Pory2 it's simple, no Knock Off tutor and poor distribution. Also the Land Guardians are just so retardedly powerful they've made almost all Fighting types unviable so Pory2 is still running around unchecked even in the expanded Doubles dex.

Just one look at the top 30 in Doubles and you'll see there isn't even ONE Fighting type up there. Everyone knows how hard it is to kill that duck even with a Fighting move.

As for Land-T it's that 91 base speed, Lele creeps it at 95 and annihilates it and the best it can do is run Scarf or AV to mitigate it and that is pretty much what every Land-T is using. At least Chomp just straight up outspeeds Lele which means it can use it's item slot for Z-EQ instead which makes it faster and stronger than Land-T

>>32068986
I like this. People complaining about how chalk will still reign supreme once it's available again, but the addition of new pokemon proves that wrong.

>>32069873
And then people will complain about the new something that replaced le chalk meme instead. The cycle is unending.

>>32068507
>>32068621
is it me or is markus' head really small compared to the rest of his body

>>32070036
Yeah, but it's cool to see something different.

What is a balls to the wall Garchomp counter? Something that can switch in on anything it tries to do, take two or three hits and then kill back easily? Not something like Ninetales. I need it to be able to take a few hits too.

>>32070257
Porygon2

>>32070257
If you're having trouble with eq and a bunch of ground weak mons, try wide guard.

>>32070281
Thanks lad. Somehow I didn't think of that one. Fits pretty well too with what I was trying to do.

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>>32070257
Trust no one. Not even yourself.

>>32070369
That's not very reliable. Anything could've done the 1 damage needed to ko a pokemon, and as long as it's used enough, it'll get to the top 10.

>>32070461
the left list is actually accurate, who in that top 10 list carries ice beam?

>>32070499
Sure, but ice beam is obvious. Question is, who can comfortably take a hit and learn ice beam? Besides porygon of course.

>>32070587
Ninetales, scarf vanilluxe, and fairium z koko can outspeed + OHKO, specs fini and specs lele can take a poison jab (if it has it) and OHKO back with moonblast unless you're fighting the rare AV chomp

>>32070587
The only Ice Beam user that's not Porygon I know is Gastrodon, but it isn't as bulky.

>>32070827
why does it have to be bulky?

>>32071501
>who can comfortably take a hit

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Give me your QR teams.

>go to PGL profile
>QR team
>register a team (has to be in battle box)
>"your QR team" tab
>click on team
>get QR code

It's a pain in the ass, so I understand if nobody does it.

>>32073015
You have to share the link, since the QR is unique to your account.

>>32073678
Fuck it then. Stupid convoluted bullshit.

i wish there was unrated/championship. i get so fucking frustrated losing 100 point in a sesion

>>32073810
If you're losing that much in a session there's something wrong with your playstyle and your team. You need a change of some sort.

>>32073810
Showdown ??

>>32074457
>unrated

>>32070257
Wide guard araquanid or ice beam P2

>>32070257
Slowbro is a decent alternative if you want something other than P2

>>32075437
no

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reminder

>>32065644

So all it took for Lando-T to be dethroned was an even more broken mon in Lele. Can't say im surprised.

>>32069873

To be fair, these new pokemon are pretty centralizing. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a new chalk with one or more of the tapus.

>>32049538
Doubles are still shit though

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So /vgcg/, is there any mon that has always been on your team since the begining of this format?

>>32079352
Fini. I don't like it anymore, but I can't get away from using it. I can't build a team I'm comfortable with like my fini team, despite its flaws.

>>32079352
porygon2 <3

>>32079352
celesteela indeed

>>32079352
Araquanid. I really liked him during my playthrough and I'm stoked that he's as popular as he is. It didn't take long for me to breed a 31/31/31/X/31/0.

He's so solid.

>>32079352
Koko, to be honest. Decent offense, enough movepool and amazing speed.

>>32079352
goodra, though I admit I stopped using it about a month ago when snorlax was all the rage

>>32081936
>breeding
Nice job friend!

>>32081936
lunge or leech seed?

>>32079352
kartana since day 1

>>32077981
Kek

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http://www.trainertower.com/caution-high-voltage-collinsville-regionals-top-8-hyper-offence-team/

Time for your weekly memedose

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>>32085903
>The name of the team refers to a long-range Thunder tome in the Fire Emblem series of games.

>>32079352
it used to be incineroar, finally gave up and went for cancerdog.

>>32088062

Wow, what a sell out. Now everyone will think you're a noob for using actually good Pokemon!

https://clips dot twitch dot tv/SpicyWittyEagleChefFrank

The madman.

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>>32088062
amirite

>>32090173
But incineroar doesn't have intimidate? I don't get it.

Also, why do people not use Z conversion on porygon2? And for that matter, why do people use porygon2 over chansey?

>>32090203
>>But incineroar doesn't have intimidate? I don't get it.
That's why people want it, retard.

>Also, why do people not use Z conversion on porygon2? And for that matter, why do people use porygon2 over chansey?
Are you serious? How new are you?

>>32090220
How new are you? Those posts are months old.

>>30877798

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>>32048951
Can she be my waifu?

>>32090613
No.

Oops

>>32090293
>months old
Not yet

Shiny Koko is available and BS legal now. Get your cute, black Tapu of balance into your game, pronto. SciresM posted the wondercard in his Twitter.

>>32088275
incineroar is good too, I just needed something more solid against kartana and I realized I don't really need fake out.

>>32093737
>nature locked
It's shit

>>32093847
Into Timid, the only nature worth running.

>>32093854
Only 3/4 are roughly, and regardless there's no reason to give your opponent that information

>>32093863
swag points are the key to good tournament performances you scrub, why do you think the top MTG players go for full jap/rus foil decks?

>>32093863
Why is timid run so often when koko's speed is already off the charts and it still won't outspeed anything that's boosted, like dragon dance gyarados?

>>32094151
you don't wanna be slower than other tapu kokos and the occasional aerodactyl, that's why
although there's some more uncommon sets like AV support or twinkle tackle that may run modest

>>32094160
That's what you're saying, but I don't know. I feel like people who invest in bulk end up winning a lot more than people who just invest to outspeed mirrors.

>>32094171
Bulk can be chipped away and when the time of the mirror comes you'll lose because you were slower. Ultimately I believe it depends on player preference.

>>32094151
I run timid because otherwise salazzle shits all over my team. And speed tying with other kokos is nice.

>>32094151
because unless you want to go modest max spatk, or something with no speed at all, it's most likely more efficient to run timid, EV wise

>>32095613
>more efficient to run timid, EV wise
How so exactly? How do you maximize the efficiency of your EVs anyway?

>>32097428
Nature is +/- 10%, so it has more of an effect on already high stats. You'd have to use more EVs to get the same stat value. I'm not good at math so I can't explain well. If you go play with a damage calculator, you can see that you can spare some EVs when you use the right nature.

>>32097428
Well, let's say I want a Koko with some bulk while also outspeeding Raichu. Raichu hits 178, so I want to hit 179. If I run timid I only need 100 EVs, but if I'm modest I need 228. To put this into perspective:

Timid 252 SpA 100 Speed leaves me 156 EVs to put into bulk
Modest 148 SpA and 228 Speed (same stats as the timid one) leaves me 132 EVs to put into bulk. I think' you'd agree that's inefficient, since you're wasting 24 EVs while gaining nothing.
That's why I said unless you absolutely want more Special Attack, Timid is more optimal.
The general "rule" that you use a beneficial nature in the highest stat unless you need the boost in other stat is based on this exact reason.

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whatever happended to this kind of teams?

>>32099039
Flavour of the month got stale. Drifblim is what all the hip and cool youngsters are using these days.

>>32099039
shitters can't copy it because they end up thunderbolting their own marowak

>ladder in PS during USA time
>reach top 500 in a whim
>ladder during japan/east asia time
>lose 100 points in an hour

really stimulates the ol' grey matter

>>32099039
All metagames settle down into relatively predictable sets sooner or later.
VGC 2017 took much longer than the last two years. I wouldn't be surprised if Worlds was won by something previously unused though.

So does anyone have any idea what successful Bulu's are typically right now? Special defensive? Jolly? Adamant?

I know there have been a lot of successful Bulu, Araquanid, Arcanine FWG core teams lately.

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>>32102725
yeah, does anyone know pokealex's or albert bos' bulu sets?

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Apparently the streaming of the Ohio MSS have just starded on Twitch (linkyoshimario).

Shit quality though, but it will be the only VGC streaming for this weekend, right?

>>32102938
ded stream?

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Dhelmise on the streaming

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ohio's top 8 happening right now

>>32102725
I faced a couple of bulu on battlespot. One was scarfed (of course) and the other took my garchomp's poison jab like a champ. It was probably full bulk.

>>32106262
>Jojo Reference
>Just 5 mons
What a madwoman

finals now

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AV or sash?

>>32108170
Scope Lens

>>32108354
this

>>32108354
>>32108365
Is it actually good? 50% crit right?

>>32109207
With Leaf Blade and similar attacks (Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Razor Leaf).

>>32109785
I've been thinking about using razor leaf. It's a shame none of the UBs get any good spread moves to utilize their beast boosts with.

>try a new team
>works great, reach high ladder quickly
>try playing some more games to rise further
>lose almos all of them
>stuck in mid ladder hell forever

how does one get out of this loop?

>>32110449
My first Gen 7 team had scarf Xurkitree spamming discharge alongside Electric Terrain (with Xurkitree EV'd to underspeed Tapu Koko by one point, so it's the one that gets the KOs)
Worked pretty well.

>>32110722
I forgot xurkitree existed.

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what's even the point of grassy seed nihilego?

>>32112417
Japanese BO1 memes.

>>32112440
And what's so randomly good about it?

>>32112871
It probably survives incredibly specific shit, like AV Kartana but with a 100 times worse typing.

>Thread is nearly a week old
>Has not even hit the 200 replies mark
People kept saying that threads would be lively and bountiful with VGC17 because it would be a good format unlike VGC17 and yet things are super dead not just here but even on all other VGC circlejerks.

What went wrong with VGC17?

>>32113713
>What went wrong with VGC17?

People that discusses about shit like that instead of discussing about the format itself.

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>>32108170

>>32113713
According to shitters on Twitter, it's because the format isn't as flowcharted as VGC16. They've gone as far as to say 16 was more competitive than 17 just because of that.

>>32113713
not many events
not all events are streamed (like the malmo regionals, I don't even know what the topcut looks like)
ded meta, there's not much to talk about

>>32114083
>it's because the format isn't as flowcharted as VGC16
l o l
getting rid of megas was the best format move in years

>>32114044
But a critical hit is only x1.5 now, and it might not even happen.

>>32113713
>What went wrong with VGC17?
The circuit is shit. Literally the only bad thing about it.
Also, during the week the thread is dead because there are no tournaments going so there's little to discuss, so it's understandable. I think that the people that was more interested in VGC either moved on to better places to discuss it, or got discouraged by the circuit and lack of relevant tourneys.

>>32114083
well, to be fair, playing online Bo1 in this format is extremely frustrating. There are way too many possibilities for a single team to cover them all and every mon in the top15 can run like 4 or 5 different sets. Predicting is near impossible to do consistently (unless you're a really great player) and lots of games come down to a 50/50 read in the very first turns.

>>32114244
>and lots of games come down to a 50/50 read in the very first turns.
Or speed-ties. I've lost count of how many games have ended up on the flip of the coin.

I liked VGC14 because despite it being a regionaldex meta there were options. And as much as I hate saying something like this, it was not as much of a legendary/UB fest either. Last but not least, Alola shitmons, and the non-Alolamons being really underpowered stuff that then also have to compete with the Tapus. Restriction breeds creativity, but the amount of restriction here is smothering at times.

>>32115335
>there were options.

t. XxPachrisuFan420xX

"use mega kang or devote half your team to walling mega kang" isn't options, it's a shit meta. you can't honestly believe that 2014 was somehow more varied and better balanced than 2017. it had even less viable fire types and an even larger discrepancy between the good mons and the bad mons. don't pretend that the tapus are le evil broken legendaries when that is demonstrably false according to their base stats, movepools, and usage statistics.

>>32115335
>still sucking vgc14 cock
14 was just a stupid format, I think even 15 handled megas better. From what I've seen 17's biggest problem is the impossibility of making a safe play that isn't clicking muddy water with tapu fini and fishing for acc drops

>>32115371
>t. XxPachrisuFan420xX
Fuck you for calling me that.

>it had even less viable fire types and
Talonflame
Charizard Y and X
Chadelure
Rotom H

Meanwhile in VGC17
Arcanine
Aracanine
Uh, Arcanine
Torkoal (only and exclusively on TR)

Yeah, totally.

>"use mega kang or devote half your team to walling mega kang" isn't options, it's a shit meta
Mega Mom was overrated and that she got btfo at Worlds is proof enough that the meta evolved to deal with the oh so horrible broken mega even worse than 10 water spouting Kyogres.

Meanwhile no matter how many shit you devote to walling and countering the tapus they will still blow you a new one, or at least, the rest of your opponent team will because you prepared so hard for them that you left everything else unattended. With Mega Mom you could pack shit to deal with her organically and without leaving your team open to 3/4 of the remaining meta.

Le evil broken legendaries or not you have to be extremely deluded to deny that the tapus are not meta defining and have the meta by the balls. They share one similarity with the primals actually, that they provide such amazing board control that you'll be handicapped yourself more often than not by not carrying them. Unless you are Gavin obviously.

>>32115446
>From what I've seen 17's biggest problem is the impossibility of making a safe play that isn't clicking muddy water with tapu fini and fishing for acc drops
But what if the root cause of that then?

>>32115335
>Alola shitmons
There's plenty good alolamons, even without counting alolaforms. Granted, a couple of them are gimmicky, but if done correctly it's a strong gimmick.
Instead of Tapus and UBs we had Megas which were far more centrilizing, even with the 1 per battle limit. I do like VGC14 a lot, but this metagame is a bit better.

>Meanwhile no matter how many shit you devote to walling and countering the tapus they will still blow you a new one, or at least, the rest of your opponent team will because you prepared so hard for them that you left everything else unattended.
Okay, so you're either a whiny kid that sucks at this game or a shitposter

As a weatherfag I'm still buttblasted at how we have setters for all weathers but like 1 or 2 abusers at most and all of them being shitty as heck. I miss my HailRoom.

>>32115456
>actually being THIS bad to get btfo by tapus

Just admit that you made a shitty team weak to them and walk away.

>>32114244
I disagree, that's what makes the format somewhat interesting. If you play the same shit over and over it gets stale. Here you can modify your team in many ways with many mons and many sets. As a Mega lover I'm really enjoying the format as it is. It might not be perfect but at least it's something "fresh". Then again I agree in that for BO1 can be very tricky since you don't have a way to use the info you gathered to play around a gimmick or strat but I guess that's how it is.

But this >>32114234 is true. The circuit pretty much only favors players in the USA. Everyone gets fucked with little to no tournaments so a lot of people lost interest. Also there's not many streams and such so no reason to play "hardcore" when you have nothing to gain really.

>>32115524
>actually being THIS bad to get btfo by Mega Mom

Just admit that you made a shitty team weak to her and walk away.

But it's okay when VGC17 does it?

>>32115537
When did I ever imply that? You're getting a bit desperate, huh?

>>32115533
yeah, I guess the true problem is that this format is more suited for tournament play rather than online laddering and binge playing but the IRL event circuit is irredeemably fucked.

>>32114244
>>32115533
Agree with the BO1 comment. The format is not bad but with how, let's say "open" it, is information gathering is more important than ever which makes BO3 almost a requirement. Japanese BO1 memesets are stronger than ever thanks to this.

I really can't remember feeling like this with past formats even once, annoyed once or twice when that happened, sure, but nowadays it feels like it happens more often than not.

>>32115537
Try harder. Mega mom was easily managable. The true btfo'er was CHALK, and even then it was managable, just harder to prepare for as it was a really solid team.

>>32115537
lmao name one tapu that can sweep through teams like m-kang could

>>32115569
That's just the nature of BO1. If I'm laddering, I just take a hyper offense team, since it's pretty easy to blow up gimmicks with these kind of teams, and (not?) surprisingly, almost nobody runs Trick Room. If I'm trying to practice, I just get a few BO3s with friends and people that I know that play VGC.

>>32115574
No one is talking about VGC15 retard.

>Le CHALK meme
Oh boy here we go again.

What an awful discussion.

>>32115594
>and (not?) surprisingly, almost nobody runs Trick Room
almost every team I see on showdown is some kind of Koko/Dog/Chomp/filler with a p2/TR sweeper slapped on. Trick room is always there, even if it isn't as impactful it may be on a dedicated team.

>>32115456
>zard-x and chandelure viable in 2014, but talonflame, incineroar, marowak, and salazzle aren't viable in 2017

lmao

>Mega Mom was overrated and that she got btfo at Worlds is proof enough that the meta evolved to deal with the oh so horrible broken mega even worse than 10 water spouting Kyogres.

the metagame taking until worlds to move away from kang shows how centralizing it was, not how balanced it was.

>>32115569
>>32115594
Well, there are tricks here and there from bulky teams that destroy the hyper offense teams but I guess this applies pretty well. That or a disgusting gimmick that can't be stopped without info.

In the end since I got discouraged by the circuit I'm just enjoying the format as it is. Might be frustrating to lose to some stuff in the ladder but in the end there's nothing that one can do, and it's not like you'll get a Worlds day 2 invite if you're top of the ladder anyways so meh.

>>32115620
Talking about Trick Room, would it be viable to run it in other thing not named Porygon2 or Mimikyu? Like a Slowbro/Slowking or a Comfey? Has anyone tried with success?

>>32115594
>surprisingly, almost nobody runs Trick Room
See, that's the thing, everyone says "Wow everyone's playing fast teams! Why does no one just play hard TR and win everything?" but no one realizes it easier said than done.

There's very few viable Trick Roomers right now and literally all of them have a I'M GONNA USE TRICK ROOM HIT ME sing on their heads. Fake Out which used to the be premium Trick Room assisting tool is thoroughly cockblocked by Lele. Trick Roomers can now get nuked by Z-Moves and god help you if you are Mimikyu because you'll get double-targeted yes or yes. Furthermore, despite the "why does no one uses TR when everyone is running fast teams" meme more often than not all those such teams have a way or two to deal with TR or prevent it. And even then, those teams usually also have Porygon 2 with their own Trick Room to either cockblock other people's Trick Room or to run their own Trick Room move if they encounter someone's with a faster team.

The reason TR is not seen as much as it seems like it should be seem on paper is that faster teams have much more tools to work with than TR.

>>32115500
I miss excadrill. It'd tear this meta wide open.

>>32115627
>Talonflame
If I wanted to set-up Tailwind but actually last for more than one turn I'd just use Mandibuzz

>Inceneroar
When will you barafags ever learn? Come back when it gets Intimidate.

>Marowak
What's this? 2016?

>Salazzle
Have it seen it like thrice since it got Fake Out and that's being generous.

>>32115595
>complaining about megamom in vgc14
and you call me a retard

>>32115661
I'm not of the shitters complaining about her in 14 though.

3DS Metas
15 > 14 > 17 > 16

>DS Metas
12 > 13 > 11

Discuss

>>32115640
nihilego learns trick room and not everyone knows it yet, you can screw a bunch of scrubs over with it.

>>32115681
14 is overrated. It actually deserves to be down there with 16.

>>32115687
14 gets way too much unfair hate from people jaded by the epic pachi meme and retards who overrate it because of that.

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>>32115681
>I don't rate VGC2009

>>32115697
09 was way too underground.

Also, I forgot to rate 10. It was like VGC16 but actually good and fun. I'd put it between 12 and 13 even.

>>32115711
If there was some kind of PS server for old vgc metas maybe I'd give 'em a shot. Playing the game before megas, genies, gems, explosion nerf were even a thing must be quite the experience.

>>32115684
Well, that looks fun. The only thing is that it's very fast even in the room. I was thinking of Slowbro/king as those can't be taunted and are base 30 so Snorlax need to be careful around you since you have Scald or something to fuck them over. And Comfey due to the priority healing.

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>>32115681
>17 behind 14
Congrats! Here it is!

>>32115727
VGC10 was the shit. This is my favorite team of it that I've ever seen.
http://nuggetbridge.com/reports/parasect-world-2010-retrospective/

I liked a Rayquaza/Kangaskhan team I saw once too but I can't find the video where I first saw it. It probably got lost when NuggetBridge decided to kill it's forums, there were some real good topics with tons of old shit on them. What a waste. There were some videos of 3rd gen games official tourneys and everything.

>>32115762
comfey is literally an empty slot
the slow-things look viable on paper, they seem less reliable than rubber ducky

>>32115694
It's not unfair, it was a legitimately shit format that everyone praises because of one Pokemon on a single team.

>>32115814
>Base 51 HP
>Support Pokemon
Quality Gamefreak game design.

The thing would improve by leaps if they removed at least 30 of those 100 speed it doesn't need at all.

>>32115825
Meanwhile for VGC15
>It's not fair, it was a legitimately fun format that everyone shits on because of one single team

Funny how things work.

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What nature can Klinklang use to make use of its special movepool as much as it does its physical one?

Modest?

>>32116600
>klinklang
Not in aloladex

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>>32116600
>mixed klinklang
>vgc 17

>>32116803
>>32116859
Just looking for tips. Thought I was in the right place.

>>32116582
Cresselia best vgc mon of all time?

>>32116955
It's clearly not. Now get out.

>>32117232
It's between her and Landorus-T. They both are just too good at their jobs.

>>32117277
you must be blind or unable to count

Alive

>>32114244
Please.

If anything this format there is an actual optimal team building setup in '17 because the distribution of types in Aloladex is so poor.

It basically amounts to Fire + Ground + Steel + Tapu + any form of speed control and you basically already have a team that will win more games than it'll lose.

The only teams I've seen which have managed to defy this setup are Gavin's hard TR and the recent Pikachu team so it's actually a pretty safe model.

>>32115641
To add to this as many people have said already is FUCKING SPEED TIES.

I don't think the 'just use TR' even realize just how many things in this dex sit on the same speed tiers even when underspeeding. This is amplified by near everyone using the exact same sweepers too because you know ultimately the best teams will always revert to what is reliable.

>>32115684
>>32115762
Comfey is pure support, thing may as well not exist because it's so unthreatening, it only works really paired with BD Snorlax who packs the immense offensive/defensive pressure to make up for it. Basically it can work but only with very specific setups.

Slowbro and Slowking are liabilities when everyone and their mother runs Koko, that thing is so stupidly overpowered because of the terrain and sitting in it's own special snowflake 130 speed tier. That having your TR setter weak to elec is a death sentence.

Having said that I do think Bro/King are still good but the options to make them work simply don't exist in this meta.

There are other decent TR options I've seen but they're not used for good reasons. Misdreavus is pretty damn solid in this format but you won't see it because it's competing with Pory2 for Evolite. Nihilego can actually catch a lot of people off guard and has the special bulk to pull off TR but it's basically playing Russian Roulette using it. Trevenant can usually get a TR up against almost anything but it basically shits all it's leaves the second Arc shows up.

>>32117632
landorus is better m8

Up you go.

I want to die.

>>32108170
scarf always

>>32079352
Alolan Muk, all day ever day. Guy looked clean as hell and I've had a soft spot for Muk since gen 1. So glad he has a place at last.

>tfw smogon is the more popular format because babies can't into perfecting stats or even playing on cart even though VGC is more fun objectively

Where's a good place for trades if not this thread? Seems like all sites are dead and I need a Tapu Fini for my HP fire Lele

>>32125484
wifi general
or else inject it

>>32125215
>clean

ehehehe

>>32122412

What's your favorite mon this format? Mine's vikavolt.

The reset is tomorrow or has happened already, right? Anyone have new teams they're making?

>>32128478
It happened 6 hours ago, and the ladders have been playable for two hours. I'm planning on using the same Japanese offense team ( https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/BT-4535-BE45 ) with my own tweaks, since it's really fun to use.

which mon will dominate the 3rd season?

Tfw you spend all day Monday trying to get your Battle spot Singles and VGC teams ready in time for the start of the 3rd season, but by the time you're actually done you have no motivation to battle.

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Speaking of the new BS season, the most fun mega is legal on regular dubs now, time to shit on some Tapus

>>32129442
this so much
>try out new team on PS
>win many games
>breed/train/inject mons
>try it again on PS in the meanwhile
>lose many games
>lose motivation

>>32129550
I tried to adapt my vgc15 team to the new doubles format but I've never actually tried it on the battle spot. Also I missed the registration for mawilite.

Any tips/guide from switching from singles to vgc?
I'm an average single battler but a terrible vgc one.

>>32129586
The importance of Protect is the #1 thing to learn when switching from singles. If you don't mind watching youtube videos, watching live commentary from good players like Cybertron is probably the easiest way to learn, I found that much better to understand things than written guides

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http://www.trainertower.com/malmo-regionals-2017/

SWEDEN YES results. Did the anons from here ended up going or ultimately were they too scared of getting culturally enriched?

http://www.trainertower.com/sao-paulo-challenge/

Results of the win and you'll get money to travel to BRland International online tourney thingy. I had completely forgotten this was a thing.

Meanwhile at Trainer Tower

>Kotaku

http://trainertower.com/forums/threads/next-on-kotaku-in-defense-of-legendary-pokemon.210/

>Hi everyone. I've got another article coming up for Kotaku, and I think it's an important one for the VGC community to weigh in on before I write it. As the title implies, it's a defense against the stigma that many casual Pokemon fans use to bring down VGC: that legendary ruins the game.

>>32130042
>that guy with trevenant in top8
>an italian player actually winning a somewhat big tournament

weird

>>32130117
>an italian player actually winning a somewhat big tournament

newfags not knowing what went down in worlds 2013

>>32130155
this year's big meme is that italy is the stronkest country bunt no italian player has actually won a regional or international. Think of the poor dude that got 2nd place at both internats

>>32130155
>Arash
>Italian

>>32050241
And he's a dick in person if you don't praise him like he's some kind of a holywood actor.

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>>32130329

>>32079352
Garchomp. Snorlax was day one, then took a few weeks off, then came back. Celesteela was day two. Koko was day three.

>>32129586
op's pastebin

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>reset for an hour
>get Sassy Porygon as gift
>it has Trace
>Everstone
>all forty babies so far have Trace

Is it impossible to get Download this way? Or do I need to breed without Everstone for now until i gets Download baby, then go for Sassy download?

It's really grinding my gears.

>>32131216
Something something you already know it.

>>32131226
I'm not injecting because my autism and also bike simulator keeps me occupied.

>>32131216
you're just getting unlucky

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>Sick and tired of the format. Every match feels the same. Everything is indistinct blur. it all feels like I'm going through the motions in autoplay
>Realize I'm simply not having fun anymore and decide it's finally time to give up and wait for next year format
>Still, decide to play a few more matches to say goodbye to the format properly
>Decide to play 10 more battles
>10th battle
>I feel like I've been possessed by three Ray Rizzos at his peak during 2010, 11 and then 12 again
>Everything is perfect. Absolutely read every single thing my opponent does, perfect plays every single turn, nothing ever goes wrong, not a single turn is wasted.
>4-0 like I have never before 4-0 someone before
>Shaking out of sheer excitement and adrenaline when the battle was over
This is bliss. I hope you anons can feel this same feel someday.

>>32049858
why would you use detect instead of protect?

>>32132505
I don't think I've been on that level, but I've made reads that worked out and it feels nice.

>>32133904
Imprison

>>32133904
On the off-chance that you encounter Imprison Muk or something similar to that. Also, if you are running Fightinium Z and have no use for All-Out Pummeling, you can use Z-Detect for that glorious evasion boost (although highly situational and luck based)

I'm making an extreme eeveeboost team and I was wondering if you guys can help me with my last pokemon. I've been jugling many different flying and fire types as my 6th and I feel like there could be something different to put on. All I feel is that I should have a special attacker as well or a bulky support but im not sure. The pastebin below is my team, any sort of advice would be greatly appreciated, I've tested this team out in 50 games and I only lost 4 of them.

http://pastebin.com/RmTmUdAg

>kartana outslows nihilego

Nice, real nice.

>>32134155
Fini?

>>32134322
I don't have access to UBs and Tapus sadly. if I did I would have ran Celesteela.

I was told that my team needs a fire/flying or some check to common TR mons

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Hey guys, I have a fun team concept that you might wanna play around with. I'd like some feedback on it though please.

>>32134486
You might want to share the link to the team, since the QRs generated by the are account-locked, meaning that the one you just posted only works for you.

>>32134649
What kind of fucking sense does that make?

>>32134769
reading comprehension?

>>32134807
https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/BT-71D8-463C
I don't read, I used to play Yugioh. Everyone knows Yugioh players can't read.

>>32134807
I don't see anywhere where it says you have to share the team, not the QR code. But what I mean is it's a stupid way to go about it. Really roundabout. Why would you need somebody to generate their own QR code when you could just share it yourself? It should have the same data. I just don't get it.

>>32134889
https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/information/0024d469-f1d8-48be-a3c9-1da29e57ead3

>>32134923
Oh, well ok. But come on, if you need a disclaimer because your implementation is ass-backwards, there's a problem.

As long as we're on the subject, here's a team I've been trying out. Mainly I just wanted to use smeargle. It's alright. It's always a gamble if it'll outspeed other lele or arcanine, but it's definitly nice to be able to spore porygons or muks or whatever.

https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/BT-5E72-4B05

>>32134821
>there appears to be a problem with one or more pokemon in your battle team

Ayy

New battle spot doubles usage stats show CHALK making a comeback.

>>32136981
It was only a matter of time. Lando/thundurus/cress didn't see much use when ORAS just came out, but they slowly ramped up. In other news, my nigga marowak is about to fall off top 30 on the VGC ladder. He had a good run I guess.

>>32137005
So much for the nerfs to Mega kang. I thought Mega mence would have taken over

How do I use tapu lele well? Apparently it's the best thing ever, but whenever I use it it, it just dies. All the garchomp, CB arcanine, kartana, and celesteela come out of the woodwork and fuck me.

>>32137051
Kang is still way more balanced, it's just easy to fit on teams. Salamence probably would have taken over if it wasn't for the fairy meta

>>32137806
pairing it with something else that can psychic spam or oranguru

>>32137806
Scarf modest Lele is the way to go imo, there is currently the currently Lele+Dribflim core which is pretty good in which case protect and Psychium-Z would be fitting

>>32138173
I ran lele/drifblim but found it underwhelming. Drifblim got outsped by a scarfed garchomp which was unexpected. I'll put more speed in it and run thief to mess with porygon. Psychium Z with no eviolite OHKOs no problem, unless they change the terrain.

>>32138209
Thief gets rid of the sweet speed boost though.

>>32139489
No, unburden would've already activated. It's not gonna give me -2 speed for getting a new item. At least, that's how it'd work logically.

>>32138173
I found Scarf to be underwhelming and very limiting on Lele. I tried it at the start of the season, a month ago and this month too but more often than not, I wished I had Protect and wasn't locked into an attack.

>>32140128
fuck off fini

>>32137876

You're right, desu im surprised that GF didn't give Salamence a fairy counter, while Garchomp does with Poison Jab. And even though stat-wise, Mega mence is better, Garchomp is more used in teams thanks to it.

>>32140418
Even with the Aerialate nerf, Megamence's Return does more to most fairies than a potential Poison Jab or Iron Head would. Garchomp being slightly more popular is likely due to being good at spamming EQ, and not taking a mega slot.

>>32141533
Ebin twitter meme my friend. Upvoted.

>>32141533
>gigalith and ninetails as biggest representatives of vgc2017

File: he's dying vp....jpg (48KB, 400x300px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 400x300px

Migrate whenever:

>>32141763
>>32141763
>>32141763
>>32141763