Egg and Breeding RNG 2

Tododile guy here and I wanted to thank >>30749709 >>30749737 for using Excel spreadsheets. I thought it was a bit weird to use excel, but it made sense and it was easy to color categorize it.

Looks like we exploded 300 from the last thread. Let's keep up the good work!

>>30751140
Ayyyyyy

Reposting my question from 1st thread.

Could someone with PKHex find out what happens if you have a parent thats genderless that hatches a pokemon with 50:50 gender ratio?

For example shedinja and nincada.

>>30751140
figured it'd be the right place to ask, apologies in advance for the probably stupid question, is it possible to set up PKHex so you can view your IV/shiny egg spreads without going through homebrew and all that? Or do you need to? I was hoping to save time hatching all these eggs

Someone delete this thread. The old one can go past 300 now.

>>30752521
Nah newfriend, old thread hit 'bump limit' which means once it goes past 300 posts, the thread will autosage, meaning that it will no longer be bumped to the top of the board and eventually delete itself.

This is actually super interesting

I'm not sure of the details though

Fill me in on the last thread

>>30751140
Does this mean I can breed a pokemon with a 50/50 gender ratio until i get a female shiny, then reload, swap out and breed a salandit for a shiny female salandit?

Ok so I saw the first thread last night but didn't study it entirely. Can someone explain to me what's going on?

>>30753160
>>30753238
>>30753219
Taken from my post on Smogon:

"tl;dr eggs are always gonna be in the exact same sequence for each specific gender ratio. This includes shininess, IVs, and gender (abilities unconfirmed, natures are confirmed to be the same however using the everstone only carries over nature and doesn't manipulate anything else).

Essentially, I hatched around 10 boxes of Mimikyu (50/50 gender ratio) with a shiny Japanese Ditto holding the Destiny Knot and Mimikyu holding an Everstone, as I was MMing for a shiny Mimikyu. Unfortunately no shiny Mimikyu hatched from any of the eggs, so I decided to reset back to when the 10 boxes worth of Mimkyu eggs were never generated/taken/hatched.

This time I replaced Mimikyu with a Genderless pokemon, Minior. I got a shiny in 6.5 boxes of hatching eggs!

This all seems like drivel to people whom have not participated in the thread listed above, but I can guarantee you that this is true to some degree. Somebody tested it with PkHex, generating loads of Mimikyu eggs by breeding Mimikyu with JP Ditto holding Destiny Knot and identifying two eggs that were shiny. He then reset, generated loads of eggs using Bounsweet (100% female) with the same Ditto. The eggs that were shiny were no longer shiny. He reset again, this time using Magikarp (50/50 gender ratio, same as Mimikyu) as the other parent with the same Ditto, and behold! The exact eggs that were shiny when breeding with Mimikyu were also shiny when breeding with Magikarp."

>>30753219
Also no, that wouldn't work because the 50/50 gender ratio pokemon you use is different from Salandit's gender ratio, 87.5/12/5.

I actually want to test this with Togepi in the near future since it hatches in less egg steps than Salandit, while having the same gender ratio as Salandit.

>>30753566
I see, but assuming with the togepi, you'd still have to hatch a shiny female togepi because the gender is locked as well right?

>>30753635
Yes that is correct.

Currently people are testing how the egg sequences or 'lists' as I like to call them get 'rerolled' so to speak, as well as how long an egg list's eggs can be predetermined until they start getting randomized or just outright start a new list.

To help this anon in a previous thread >>30754079

You're just getting unlucky. You're better off brute forcing it until you get your desired Mimikyu. Unless of course, you hatched those 10 eggs only to reset and hatch the same 10 eggs again, in which case, don't do that because you're wasting your time, as you're hatching the same Mimikyu over and over again.

To answer your other question, this can benefit those who want to breed slightly faster, or want to breed for a specific hidden power, although we're still getting there.

tl;dr keep on hatching and hope for the best

>>30753141
Thanks again anon. I went to shower after putting up the spooky anchor. I just finished my first 5 iv pokemon in gen 7. An adamant magicarp. I'm going to turn him into a DDoS then I plan to work on a wishiwashi, salazzle and a spooky marowak since they're all in similar egg groups and I already have a few of them hanging around since I used them to ferry IVs onto my karps.

Can someone test if the RNG is fixed only for the eggs, or if it is the same for fishing/encounters/etc.?

I don't have the game yet, so I can't test it myself.

Well, even if encounters really are fixed, maybe it will be hard to tell since grid movement doesn't exist anymore...

So what was determined right at the end of the last thread is that when breeding with ditto, swapping the other parent out for one of a different gender ratio does NOT affect the IV output or whether the offspring is shiny. Using Mimikyu and then resetting and replacing Mimikyu with Popplio resulted in the same IV spread for all eggs, and the same two eggs became shiny, despite going from a 50-50 gender ratio to a 7-1 gender ratio.

However, fewer of their eggs turned out female, because of Popplio's lower chance to be female. They didn't say exactly which eggs were female in each set, so I can't confirm, but I'm confident this means that gender is rolled 1 to 100, and if they posted the specifics, none of the Popplio that came out female would have been where male Mimikyu were previously.

Additionally, genderless and 100% gender pokemon share a table, and genderless Pokemon appear to be treated as a male in this case with regards to inverting the IV distribution to the offspring.

>>30753219
What this should mean is that if you do that, you will in fact get a shiny Salandit, but your Salandit may not come out female despite the original being female. The egg may have rolled a number that was sufficient for generating a female on a Pokemon with a 50-50 gender ratio, but will still result in a male on Salandit or any other 7-1 ratio Pokemon. It is still possible that your Salandit would be female, though.

I would like to begin writing an easy-to-understand but comprehensive guide about the findings in these two threads, but there are some things I think we need to figure out concretely first, like what exactly you can do to cause the eggs to be re-generated.

Does removing destiny knot (or putting it on), change the generation? If so, could you remove it for an egg or two, put it back on, and see the eggs continue back along the path they were on before? Or is it irreversibly changed.

How wildly can you change the parents and still maintain the pattern? If you swap from Ditto + Popplio to Caterpie + Scyther, will the results stay the same? If you're doing your experiments with Destiny Knot, note that you need to take the Destiny Knot off of a parent in the first set and put it on a parent in the next set to replicate that. That might cause it to not follow correctly. If so, try doing the same thing but with two Destiny Knots, never removing one from the first two parents. Additionally, try the experiments without Destiny Knot at all.

Currently the only known way to break the egg chain is to put in a parent with a guaranteed gender, and current theory is that breeding with destiny knot, and then breeding without destiny knot, change results. The latter is very likely but needs to be confirmed.

If nobody else does it before I'm able to, I will try testing these things myself, but without Pkhex, it will go slower, and I do not have a destiny knot to begin with.

>>30759609
I don't have PkHex either, but I can test these things easily with access to Destiny Knot and a setup that lets me hatch pokemon one-handed. I've been planning to test these things since yesterday, but was consumed by work and other stuff. Now, for what I plan to do:

I'm going to grab a 50/50 pokemon and a 6IV Ditto and roll 10 eggs. These will work as a base for us to compare results. I'll then switch to a genderless pokemon so we have the same 10 eggs from the other table it generates. From there, I'll try swapping out parents to check how sequences can be broken / reset, and how much we can "undo" them, if at all. I can try swapping out items to see what happens, too.

I'll note down IVs, gender, nature and ability, so we can see how all those factors are affected when we try to break the list, and perhaps gain some insight on how predictable abilities are inherited. I'll post results as they come, which might take a while since no PkHex.

>>30760517
Oh and I can test how MM affects it, too. As well as not having a Ditto at all.

>>30760517
>>30760634
Alright, I'll get to work then too, and we can compare results.

>>30761461
For reference, I'm going to do
Ditto + Pokemon (Gyarados) as a baseline, then test varying it with
Pokemon (f) + Pokemon in same family (Gyarados (f) + Magikarp)
Pokemon (f) + Pokemon in same egg group (Gyarados (f) + Sharpedo)
Pokemon (m) + Pokemon in same egg group (Magikarp (m) + Lanturn)
Pokemon + Pokemon of same species (Abra + Abra)

And we'll see if these all inherit the same way that the original Ditto + Gyarados did.

>>30751193
No problems! Thanks for your work too!

>>30758902
Good summary, you are correct.

>>30759609
>>30760517
>>30761799
Good luck! I'm interested in your test now.
Sorry I can't be of much help today, I'm going to be working, but I'll stick around the thread.

Currently breeding eggs for a shiny, so I can't contribute until after I finish.

Bump for Bulu.

>>30761799
Alright, I'm not quite done, but here are my findings. First I did Ditto + Gyarados (f). Then I did Magikarp (m) + Gyarados (f). Then I did Magikarp (m) + Lanturn (f), which naturally produced entirely different offspring (Chinchou rather than Magikarp.

My sample size was only 5 eggs, no Destiny Knot was used, so only 3 IVs passed on. The inheritance of the five eggs is as follows

>Egg 1
x / M / F / x / F / x
Hasty, Male
>Egg 2
M / x / M / F / x / x
Brave, Male
>Egg 3
M / x / x / F / x / M
Gentle, Female
>Egg 4
x / x / M / F / x / F
Hasty, Female
>Egg 5
x / F / M / x / x/ M
Adamant, Female

In all three experiments, the eggs inherited stats in this exact way. They did when I switched Ditto out for Magikarp, and they did when I switched in a Lanturn to produce an entirely different species. The inheritance never changed. So changing species does not break the chain. Also, like what seemed to be the case when the Pkhex anon did his tests, the stats that were randomly generated produced the exact same numbers every single time. Those are also locked. Everything stayed the same.

I still have to go Gyarados (f) + Sharpedo (m), but I doubt that will change anything if Lanturn didn't. I also have to do Abra + Abra. I'll come back in with those results.

>>30764035
I did Abra + Abra, which finally breaks the chain. The first Abra that I picked up matched the other Egg 1s perfectly. IV distribution, nature, and gender were all perfectly on point. All 5 other eggs were not.

I'm not going to check all of their IVs, but the second egg's IVs didn't match up, and the natures and genders for eggs 2-5 are

Sassy, Female
Bold, Male
Hardy, Male
Hardy, Female

which is completely incongruous.

So completely swapping out both species seems to do it? In light of this, I'm going to try breeding Gyarados with something in the Dragon egg group. The Magikarp and Lanturn I used are both Water 2. Changing the egg group might change it. I will also try selecting two totally different Pokemon in the Water 2 egg group, neither being Gyarados or Magikarp, and see what happens.

>>30764359
All *4 other eggs were not, is what I meant.

>>30764035
Fantastic! Thanks anon, this is helping us understand the scope of seeded eggs, and confirm what people have been saying, so really good data. Looking forward to seeing the results of the next tests.

>>30764359
Breeding Lanturn (f) with Sharpedo (m), resulted in the eggs retaining the original chain. They inherited the same IVs, Natures, and Genders are the eggs in this post >>30764035

It seems to be that changing the egg group also resets it. I'm about out of time for experiments for now, but we could still check to see if breeding Gyarados/Magikarp with Pokemon in the dragon egg group keeps it the same, if breeding two dragon egg group Pokemon who aren't Gyarados/Magikarp keeps it the same, and we could still check to see if there's some way to slowly move the breed across to a different egg group by using Pokemon who are in two of them, like going from Water2-Dragon, to Dragon-Field, to Field-Amorphous, to maintain the chain going from Water2 to Amorphous.

The reason then, that the chain doesn't break when breeding with Ditto even if you totally change the other parent and get a wildly different offspring, is that it's all still within the "Ditto" egg group. That could be why the anon from last night switching from Ditto + Totodile to Ledian + Scyther saw the chain break, which means the Destiny Knot being removed might not be the culprit.

>>30764702
Also I'm really into this shit, so pardon me if it's too early, or the method just doesn't pan out, or some other group on some other corner of the internet has already fully uncovered this shit and come up with something else, but I think we should call this Swap Breeding.

has anyone tested out to see if going to poke pelago or festival plaza might reroll the seed? also might wanna check whether battling a pokemon will affect it in any way as well

>>30764359
That would explain a bit with the Ditto + Tododile and the Ledian+Scyther scenario.

Also currently working with Gothita. Can we get someone with pkhex to test out my theory about twin offsprings/clone of parents. I'm aiming for the shiny Gothita and I compare IVs and release the ones that suck. In doing so, I sometimes come across two offsprings that are exactly identical in ability, gender, and IV. Maybe with some of the people in those Shiny Hunt General/Weekend thread can help. The test would be to breed a bunch of eggs and compare offsprings to see if it is chance or not that the off springs are identical. Maybe it can give a clue on how these seeds behave.

https://twitter.com/pokemon_PhD/status/808679887150153728

>>30764937
This was posted last thread, and I'm not even sure what the value is in knowing what your egg seed is. What exactly does this tell you / do for you? These offhand tweets about a Japanese website don't really explain much.

>>30765064
Agreed, knowing what your egg seed is doesn't do much if you don't know what is inside the seed. Unless we have something like a MH data bank that generates charm tables, it won't do us any good right now. It's the same as not knowing and just playing as usual.

>>30764702
I suppose it might be worth mentioning that when I was doing checks last night, I got the same 5 natures. Hasty, Brave, Gentle, Hasty, Adamant. I bred with a Magikarp, as well as with a Gastly, Litten, and Growlithe. All of these maintained these natures, because they were bred within the same Egg Group: "Ditto", because they were all bred with Ditto. Then today I do Ditto + Gyarados, and get the same natures. Again, because they're in the Egg Group "Ditto". But when I reset again and did just Lanturn and Sharpedo, in the Water 2 egg group, I got those same 5 natures again. But reseting and doing Abra and Abra, in the Human-Like egg group, the chain broke.

This could be evidence for some sort of ability to shift the egg group along, or it could be that the Abras failed to maintain the chain because they're identical species, rather than because the egg group changed. I'm going to try two human-like Pokemon who aren't the same species.

>>30764862
Battling wilds is confirmed to not change the seed at all, and if anything would it would be that.

>>30765299
What gender is the Growlithe used?
It's actually the odd one out of the others, since it's the only one with multiple abilities instead of just a single ability.
Gender might have something to do with why it changed if it's male, since females pass on their ability more often

>>30765482
The initial Gyarados I used (I said Magikarp but that was just the offspring, I started with Gyarados) was female. The Gastly, Litten, and Growlithe were all male, and they all maintained the chain. The abilities don't seem to effect it.

>>30765299
I think I've confirmed this by breeding Abra with Kadabra. By doing this, rather than Abra + Abra, my offspring are just like the original chain in this post >>30764035

Hasty, Male
Brave, Male
Gentle, Female
Hasty, Female
Adamant, Male

Rather than the egg group, it seems the problem was breeding two Pokemon of identical species. This is probably because ball inheritance has been changed such that two identical-species Pokemon have an equal chance to pass on their ball, and incorporating that check screws it up when doing this with identical species. Two Pokemon in the same evolutionary family still works out.

My plan to finalize this will be to breed Magikarp + Magikarp, rather than the Magikarp + Gyarados I did before, to see if the chain breaks again.

>>30765593
...fuck, that's right. I completely forgot about ball inheritance. An extra roll the game has to make, apparently at the end, explains why the first egg was the same but all the rest were different.
It also means that the game is almost certainly outright skipping gender rolls for monogender/genderless pokemon, and that's why they end up having results.

>>30765593
>Adamant, Male
was a mistype. I meant to write Adamant, Female.

However, my 4th and 5th Abra came up female in spite of the original chain.

This would be because of Abra's 3-1 gender ratio that I wasn't aware of before I started this. The exact same thing happened with my Litten, Growlithe, and Popplio last night. It means for egg #3, it rolled gender high enough that the resulting Pokemon would be female regardless of if it was a 50-50 ratio, a 3-1 ratio, or a 7-1 ratio. All the Pokemon I have bred like this have turned out female on the third egg. It would also mean eggs #4 and #5 are rolling just high enough that a 50-50 Pokemon turns out female, but not high enough for a 3-1 Pokemon or 7-1 Pokemon to turn out female. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well. Essentially, if it rolls from 1-8, you need to roll an 8 for a 7-1 Pokemon to be female. For a 3-1 Pokemon, you need to roll 7 or 8. For a 50-50 Pokemon, you need 5, 6, 7, or 8. That's my theory, anyway. Simplified from what I was trying to say last night where I suggested it rolled from 1 to 100 for gender. Rolling from 1-8 would be simpler given that every gender ratio is out of 8.

>>30760517
This anon here. I ran several experiments but couldn't really sort through them since it got so late. I was going to gather up a bunch of data and analyze it all together, but now there's too much and it's 1am. Glancing at it seems to lead to most conclusions the other anon has been making in the thread. Maybe there's one or two things to add, but I'll sort them out whenever I can tomorrow and report here. Why do these cool things have to happen right on finals week?

Anyway, I'll compile results and post here whenever I can, there's probably not much to add though, so don't get too hype yet. Thanks to all the anons contributing, keep up the good work!

>>30765908
The more I'm looking at this, the more I'm thinking it's a series of prerolled numbers, used in order as needed, and the various discrepancies are from added or skipped steps in the process.
If that is indeed the case, and we can figure out how much of what's there is used in a single egg (with the various variables), then it may well be possible to outright break breeding via carefully placed magikarps and genderless/monogendered to get what you want.
Or maybe I'm wrong or there's too much going on for that to be feasible.

>>30765593
>>30765908
Alright, I've done the Magikarp, and it appears to confirm the issues I had with the Abras. It does in fact appear that breeding same-species Pokemon resets the seed because of the check for ball inheritance. The more interesting thing though, is that the seed I got reset to was the same. When I bred Abra with Abra, I got

Sassy, Female
Bold, Male
Hardy, Male
Hardy, Female

After the seed reset. With Magikarp, I got the same results. Breeding two Magikarp resulted in the first one being Hasty, Male, like all of the other chains, but Magikarp 2 through 5 got me

Sassy, Female
Bold, Male
Hardy, Male
Hardy, Female

Exactly like the Abras. So even it seems like switching over to "identical species" breeding switches you to another predetermined seed that doesn't change, even if the species you're breeding is completely different.

What debunking the egg group theory meant was that the anon's issue going from Ditto + Totodile to Ledian + Scyther last night was not an egg group problem, it must have been the Destiny Knot.

If that's the case, we can identify that the things that break the chain are:
Switching to a Pokemon with a 100% gender or no gender, because it skips a check
Switching to two identical-species Pokemon, because it ADDS a check for Pokeball inheritance. This is true even if both Pokemon are in the same ball. Both of my Abras were in Pokeballs, although my two Magikarp were in different balls.
Equipping or Unequipping the Destiny Knot or any Power Item, because this directly affects the IV inheritance.

The last thing I think needs to be checked is if equipping and unequipping an Everstone will also reset the seed. I'll check that in a little bit, my 3DS is about to die. Once I figure that out, I'm going to compile the information and make an image or something that explains it all.

Somebody link this to Pokemon PhD (>>30764937)
He seems like the kind of guy who, at the very least, would find it interesting

>>30766593
We can send him the compiled information later, with a link to the thread for a research source if you're feeling daring.

>>30766477
Oh, one last thing I would like it if somebody else could check. It seems the seed is reset if you remove the Destiny Knot, but I want to know how sensitive it is. If use Ditto 1 with Destiny Knot + Pokemon you want to breed, see what the results are, reset the game, and then take Ditto 1 out, take his Destiny Knot off, give it to Ditto 2, and put Ditto 2 with Destiny Knot in with Pokemon you want to breed, does the seed reset? This would be useful for people who do not have 6IV Dittos, it would let them figure out which Ditto to swap in to get the breed they want more quickly, rather than waiting for it to randomly inherit the stats you want. It makes it a lot easier to get by 100% legitimately using the 4IV dittos you can easily SOS chain for yourself.

We still need to figure out how far it goes before it starts to deviate.
Unfortunately, with there being different things that can affect it, that's going to be different for monogendered/not, destiny knot/not, and same-species/not things, and likely masuda'd/shiny charm/no shiny manip as well.

>>30766477
Using an Everstone obviously changes what you get for natures, but it does not change the gender of the output Pokemon, nor does it change their IVs. These Magikarp are all Calm, but otherwise are identical to the Magikarp I got from my first Magikarp + Gyarados experiment in every way.

I just need a Destiny Knot to properly experiment with that.

>>30767064
That's true, too.

>>30767540
>Destiny Knot
Put something up on the GTS for a male Shellos and I'll send you one. I've got a few extra lying around.

>>30767770
Sure thing, I'm depositing a female lv.4 Spinarak with the message I want to trade for a pokemon that will help me with my adventure. Thanks in advance.

>>30767864
Sent.

>>30753453
So what you're telling me with this info is that if I am breeding and say I get a shiny after 50 pokemon, that I can swap over the female parent and produce a shiny egg of that species instead on the 50th, so long as the gender ratio remains the same as the other female parent?

I mean essentially this is just saying the PIDs generated are set in stone for each gender ratio in each game right? Since breeding PIDs (which determine several factors like gender, nature, ability, characteristic etc) can be separated through force by using everstone and destiny knot, then the genders are quite literally the only things left that are tied to PID generation 100%.

This is why IVs don't matter for the 50th egg hatched, while those may be different, the PID should be the same.

>>30768191
or at least it should generate a shiny PID on the 50th hatch, I suppose it doesn't have to be the same PID, but there might be some hidden function that forces your game to generate a shiny PID.

>>30768191
>>30768239

I can at least confirm it when breeding with Ditto, but the anon in this thread said it may work differently for same species pokemon since they require a Ball check (which parents' ball gets passed down). But yes, I do believe that the PID stays the same in the stuation you've portrayed.

>>30768191
Gender ratio is debunked. The two females do not need to have identical gender ratios, you just can't switch to a Pokemon with a completely fixed gender.

If you got a shiny Magikarp after 50 eggs, you could switch the female Magikarp to a female Rowlet and still receive a shiny Rowlet at egg 50. You couldn't switch the female Magikarp with a Bounsweet, though, because those are always female.

>>30768269
>>30768286

This is the most interesting thing I have heard since XY and the whole destiny knot thing.

I guess the reason why the gender throws off the PID generation is because the gender is still attached to PID in breeding. It would essentially force the game to make up PIDs that are only female and from what I assume, it's overwriting or delaying the other set of PIDs?

Idk if you're checking this already, but have you bred like 20 pokemon that can be m or f, recorded the PIDs, then bred 10 pokemon that can only be f, then another 10 and recorded all 20 of those PIDs to see if it overwrites or delays?

>>30768381
sorry I'll put that in a better form
>set 1: breed 20 rowlets and record all 20 PIDs
>set 2: breed 10 bounsweet and then 10 rowlets and record those 20 PIDs
>compare to see what happens with the PIDs of the set 2 rowlets and if the PIDs are the same as the last 10 or first 10 of the set 1 rowlets.

http://blastoise-x.hatenablog.com/entry/SM-breed

>>30768575
Is there a reason you keep posting Japanese resources with no comment? I can tell even without understanding the language that this is likely the same thing we're working on now but posted over a week ago, but I still can't read what it says, and it doesn't appear as though any english-speaking community has picked up on it.

>>30768416
Someone tried this last thread with Bounsweet and, I think it was Mimikyu. They had a box that had two shinies in it, and used that to test quickly by examining the egg contents in Pkhex. They identified that Bounsweet broke the sequence, and that going back to Mimikyu before the shiny eggs were supposed to appear resulted in them not appearing. You don't seem to be able to bounce back and forth between the different seeds so easily.

>>30768719
Amazing.
So In general, you shouldn't switch what you're breeding ever.

Does this mean you can save after every 50, then whenever you get a shiny you reset and save closer to it to reroll IVs and nature (clearly gender wont reroll if its the exact same PIDs)

>>30768813
unless saving and resetting also debunks it

>>30768813
No, the reason the chain broke was because Bounsweet is a female only species, causing the game to roll another list. If you change it to another species that can be male or female it will keep the shininess, but depending on the gender ratio it will be male or female.

>>30768813
IVs and nature cannot be rerolled. Those are fixed as well, sort of. If you tamper with the IVs using a Destiny Knot or a Power item, you will completely break the sequence, the shiny won't appear, the genders will be different, and you'll need to reset. Which IVs are inherited, and from which parent, are locked in.

However, putting an everstone on a Pokemon to guarantee nature does not break the sequence, the IVs, gender, and whether or not the egg is shiny will continue as they should, with the nature you want.

If you were using a female Mimikyu to begin with, the IVs that came from the father would come from your Ditto, and the mother's IVs would come from Mimikyu. If you reset and swapped in a male Rowlet, now the IVs inherited from the father from from Rowlet, and Ditto is the mother. However, you cannot change which stat gets generated randomly. The destiny knot only passes on 5, so one will always be randomized. That is also fixed. Not only is the same stat going to end up randomly generated no matter how many times you reset, it will also randomly generate the same number for that stat no matter how many times you reset.

As long as you don't switch to a 100% male, a 100% female, a Genderless Pokemon, or a Pokemon of the exact same species as the other Pokemon you have in the nursery, you can switch what you're breeding at your leisure.

>>30768575
Highlights:
Rejecting an egg uses up 1 RN.
Gender/nature/etc is generated at the start and genderless mons use up 1 fewer, so you can easily switch from gendered to genderless/fixed gender by rejecting an egg beforehand.
Masuda method uses 6 extra RNs (so it's been buffed this gen to 7x from 6x).
Same species breeding uses 1 extra RN at the end for ball inheritance.

>>30768191
From what it seems, as long as you aren't switching to/from a monogendered/genderless species, introduce two parents of the same species prior to Egg 50 exactly (unless all previous pairings were that, in which case Egg 50 needs to be the one you switch at), and keep the Destiny Knot status the same the entire time.
Unknown if masuda method or not on the previous eggs will change the later one or not, that needs to be tested.

>>30768984
So you can swap from gendered to fixed gender by rejecting an egg because they use one fewer, but Masuda and Same Species use more. Is there any way to swap to those? Because same species breeding uses one extra, could you reject one egg to swap back to different species/gendered? Reject two eggs to swap over from same species to different species/fixed gender?

>>30768945
Brilliant, this is exactly what I needed to know.
So you either start with the destiny knot or don't? It sort of sounded like you could add in destiny knot in the middle of breeding and still stay on track, but in the first sentence you spoke of tampering with them debunks the sequence and begins a new one. Either way, I think it's safe to say that you should just stick with what and how you want to breed the whole way through. Begin with a destiny knot, keep a destiny knot on. As you said the everstone doesn't matter, which is great. I assume that on the 50th roll of breeding you would still also end up with either the everstoned parents nature, or the nature that was based on RNG. So throwing in a new parent with the everstone wouldn't change the nature if the nature upon the shiny hatch was not the one that the everstone should have provided. But it would change it if it was the nature provided by the everstone.

Sad about the gender thing, but this makes breeding 100% legit in-game shinies with appropriate natures much easier.

>>30769438
The thing with the Destiny Knot is the current theory, I'm going to research it more thoroughly later tonight to confirm whether or not is does change the sequence.

>I assume that on the 50th roll of breeding you would still also end up with either the everstoned parents nature, or the nature that was based on RNG. So throwing in a new parent with the everstone wouldn't change the nature if the nature upon the shiny hatch was not the one that the everstone should have provided. But it would change it if it was the nature provided by the everstone.

If the parent in the daycare at the time the egg is spawned has the everstone, you will get that parent's nature. If you used a Magikarp with no Everstone to get up to 50 eggs, and got a Shiny Calm Magikarp, reset, switched the parent with a Modest Rowlet with an Everstone, the Shiny Rowlet on the 50th egg will be Modest. The current everstone in the nursery will always be the one that is used.

Is there any way to know the contents of the list?

>>30769519
What list?

>>30769564
of the sequence, that determines the eggs

Going back to this >>30764935

If we have enough people working on the natures of the seeds, then I think we should have more help on debunking what goes on in a seed.

So I am breeding a 6IV Foreign Ditto holding a destiny knot with a 5IV Gothita holding an everstone and I compare IVs and toss away the ones that I don't want. In less than a box of eggs, I found "triplets" in the sense that their IVs were identical, but their other details were different. One was Male/Competitive, 2nd was Female/Frisk, and the last was Female/Competitive.

I also had a pair I kept because they had bad speed and attack which could be good for trick room sets and lowering damage received from foul play. The twins had the exact same IVs, gender, and ability. These aren't off by 1IV. These are dead on set exact same IVs for those in each group.

The reason I think this is significant is because the low amount of eggs can't say this just happened by chance seeing as one of those IVs had to be randomly generated. In the cases of the twins, since the attack was the IV missing from the parent Gothita, the randomly generated IV came from speed in both cases, both being the same.

Just an observation for now. I'll keep breeding more eggs to see if these triplets and twins will have more clones. If anyone would like to help observe the content of seeds, you can try with a box of a same parents for example and see how the eggs compare to one another. Even though the eggs are supposedly randomly generated, maybe there's a pattern we can manipulate such as " 50-50 gender roles have a higher chance to copy 4/5 of the stats from the mother compared to genderless pokemon."

>>30769586
Not yet, if ever.

>>30769597
Keep up the good work. What you're doing is a bit beyond me, so I don't know if I'd be able to contribute to your effort.

How the fuck do I get a HP Fire Magnemite?

>>30769597
>>30769597
To add clarity: For genderless pokemon when they breed with a Ditto, the Ditto takes the role as the father I believe. The statement would imply that the it can be equally likely that 4/5 IVs can be taken from either the ditto or the genderless pokemon in comparison to those with the 50-50 gender splits.

>>30752415
Why would the parent affect the offspring's gender ratio in any way

>>30769040
There's no real point in using non-Masuda parents, but a non-Masuda shiny will always be a shiny when replaced with a Masuda pair (but further eggs will no longer match because of the extra RNs used), while a Masuda shiny only has a ~1/7 chance (~1/3 with shiny charm) of still being shiny when switching to non-Masuda parents (and you'll obviously need to reject 6 eggs if you want further eggs to match).

The number of RNs used while determining IV inheritance isn't fixed (and depends on whether you're using destiny knot/power items), so there's no easy way to swap back to anything that uses more RNs.

The important thing to note is that the shininess check occurs near the end after everything except ball inheritance, so switching to/from same species works fine for the first egg after switching. The further eggs will no longer match if going from different parents to same species, but when going from same species to different species you can reject an egg afterwards for it to match.

Though really, having the chain match afterwards isn't really something that matters too much given how unlikely it is to hatch multiple shinies in a single batch and how 2x Magikarp with Masuda method is probably the best set of test parents anyway.

>>30769677
the IVs need to match up to a certain set of IVs.
If you're breeding with a ditto and another parent with full IVs youre not going to see it because HP fire can only have a max of 30 in speed and special attack.

Example: A ditto you would want to have is 31/30/31/30/31/30. Pray that you get all 5 Destiny Knot stats from the ditto and that the 6th RNG stat is 30 or 30 minus multiples of 4.

That's another thing to note, IVs, regardless of the HP type and specific max IV spreads that's needed for them, you can still get a certain HP if you decrease each IV in multiples of 4.

Take the IV of 30 speed for example, 26, 22, 18 so on will all still produce a fire HP so long as the sequence is 31/30/31/30/31/xx

The same would apply to 27/30/31/30/31/30, as 31 - 4 in the HP stat is 27. Can also be 23, 19 etc.

(xx being the number decreased by multiples of 4)

>>30769687
Ugh.. I made another set of twins. 31/31/31/31/31/30. Both female, but one has Frisk and the other has Competitive.

>>30769863
HP type is based on even/odd, not multiples of 4.

The multiples of 4 thing was for determining the power of the move, which was removed in gen 6.

The triplets became Quadruplets. I made a second Female/Competitive.

>>30769927
OH right, forgot.
multiples of 2, then.

>>30769858
Alright, so you can swap your sequence from anything that has FEWER random numbers by rejecting a number of eggs equal to the number of fewer random numbers. Fixed-Gender uses one less RN than Gendered, so you can swap from Gendered to Fixed-Gender by rejecting one egg. Different-Species uses one less RN than Same-Species, so you can swap from Same-Species to Different-Species by rejecting one egg. Non-Masuda uses six less RN than Masuda, so you can swap from Masuda to non-Masuda by rejecting six eggs, not that you ever would in practical terms, and there is no way to swap over to something that uses more RNs.

>The important thing to note is that the shininess check occurs near the end after everything except ball inheritance, so switching to/from same species works fine for the first egg after switching. The further eggs will no longer match if going from different parents to same species, but when going from same species to different species you can reject an egg afterwards for it to match.

None of my experiments involved Shiny Pokemon, but I did notice that when going from Different Species to Same Species, the first egg would always match the other experiments, and it would start to deviate at Egg #2. That's what you're describing here? Because the check for ball inheritance is made after every other part of the Pokemon is generated, the first Pokemon would generate properly w/regards to what was observed previously. And because the ball inheritance check is what messes with Same-Species swapping, the fact that it checks whether or not it's shiny before that is why you can swap to same species and get the shiny one egg beforehand.

I know I'm mostly saying exactly what you said back at you but wordier, I just want to confirm that I'm understanding you right. Are these the only notable things from that blog post that we haven't already figured out? That person's post seems pretty in-depth.

>>30770069
Did that blog post note how many random numbers are used total, for things like IVs and whatnot? Or is that still unknown?
I think I said this before, but if we can figure out how many RNs are used total for any particular combination of things, we might well be able to magikarp our way into guaranteed shinies

>>30769858
Also, Masuda adds 6 random numbers, from what you're saying, the shiny charm adds 2? So something as passive as getting the shiny charm in the middle of a breeding project would alter its course, albeit as a one-time deal.

>>30770069
Pretty much. Though you can actually swap back from different species to same species by switching to a genderless/fixed-gender mon for one egg, since breeding with same species is basically the same as breeding with different species and rejecting every other egg.

Most of the post is just going more in-depth into how things work with charts and examples, especially stat inheritance, and there's a summary at the end.

As far as I understand, the post is saying egg generation works as follows:
Roll 5 RNs for nature/gender/etc, do not roll for gender if genderless/fixed-gender so only 4 RNs in that case.
Roll an RN for a stat. If it hasn't been inherited yet, roll an RN to determine which parent it comes from, otherwise ignore it. Repeat until enough different stats have been rolled (5 with destiny knot, 3 without).
Now roll one RN for each stat (so roll 6 RNs), which is the random IV it gets if it wasn't inherited.
Roll 1 RN for PID (determines shininess). Roll 2 more RNs if you have shiny charm. Roll 6 more RNs if using Masuda method.
If parents are same species, roll 1 RN for ball inheritance.

>>30770411
The IV inheritance step doesn't use a fixed number of RNs.

>>30770490
Yep!

>>30770737
Does something having an HA (and is able to pass it down) change anything? Is it an additional roll in ability determination, or just a different way the ability determination roll is interpreted?

>>30770737
>Roll 5 RNs for nature/gender/etc, do not roll for gender if genderless/fixed-gender so only 4 RNs in that case.

What are these 5 rolls?
Gender, Nature, Ability, ..? ...?

>>30769698
I think you've missed my point.

It was to discover whether those Pokemon would be the same as the genderless group of Pokemon or the same as split gendered Pokemon.

If it's part of genderless group then shedinja is fastest to hatch genderless pokemon. So it would be the genderless version of magikarp.

If it's part of the split gendered group then it means the seed is based on the outcome of the egg and not the parent.

Sure it's not super important but the more we understand the better.

I'm 90% done an image guide to this method, sure hope nothing game changing gets discovered over night.

>>30772996
Oh wow, thank you anon, that will help a lot. Glad to have contributed!

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>>30772766
Is english not your first language or am I a dumbass?

Shedinja is an interesting pokemon in many ways. It's genderless so it will only breed with ditto AFAIK. The offspring will always be nincada. The gender of the offspring will not be affected by any factors whatsoever besides the natural gender ratio all duo gendered mons observe. The nincada should be in the regular Bug egg group and thus won't be able to breed with pokemon in the mineral egg group. Shedinja shouldn't be able to breed with ninjask or nincada.

I have not tested any of this. It's just my guess on what SHOULD happen based on experience.

>>30773056
English is my first language but I am retarded.

I'm not talking about the gender outcome of the nincada. I'm talking about whether the shiny seed/IV seed of the nincada will match that of the genderless/only one gender group or that of the split gendered group.

So if the IVs and shiny match what would happen with a Bounsweet then it would be part of the genderless group. Meaning it relies on the parent.

If the IVs/shiny match what would happen with a magikarp then it would be a part of the split gender group. Meaning it relies on the child's.

This whole idea was to give a pokemon that would be the fastest alternative for the genderless group. So if you want a shiny beldum you could hatch nincadas until you get a shiny and then you'll know which the shiny beldum is, saving you a huge amount of time.

Has anyone tested if region of one of the parents changing impacts the table?

Say you breed with Magikarp(ENG) and Magikarp(JP) and get a shiny, would changing either parent to say...(GER) matter?

>>30773710
Switching from two parents from the same region to two from different regions impacts it, as this person said >>30769858 because then the Masuda Method kicks in and adds extra rolls.

Switching the regions any further than that hasn't been tested, but I can't think of any reason why it would change anything.

>>30773728
Not quite what I was asking, Since MMing kicks in when 1 is from a foreign region than the other(or is it just foreign from your region), I was wondering if you were to swap from a JP karp to a GER karp would reroll the table or if it would keep it in the MM table rolled when it was ENG + JP

Can someone explain what's going on here? Also I have PKHeX so I could do something

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Someone proof read this shit for me.

The only thing that stands out to me as something we blatantly don't know is how far in advance eggs are determined. I think knowing that it's at least one box makes it usable in practice though. Anything else that could crop up seems like it would be the result of doing something really strange.

>>30773906
You can read this thing and tell me if you understand it enough to do anything with it as somebody who hasn't been neck deep in this shit all night.

>>30774019
Different anon, clears up a lot of things for me as someone who's only been semi-regularly checking up on it. The biggest problem I had was some conflicting info as people refined the experiments and disproved older ideas.

At the very least, you're explains what's going on very clearly if there turns out to be further changes to what affects what. From knowing the usage of terms like RN and so on, your guide also does a good job laying out what those are without actually digging into the jargon.

It also provides the first real example I've seen of just how useful this is beyond speeding through breeding with Magikarps for shinies (ie. that you can use it to switch your shinies if you end up with one with traits you don't want for one species but do for another).

>>30774019
The only thing I'm not sure is explained (or tested throughly) is the egg rejecting part resetting the sequence. Shouldn't you reject one egg for every egg you pick up to keep the sequence, since every egg uses one less RN if you swap, say, from gender to genderless? I think the way you put it kinda reads like "you should reject an egg once and it should now work fine", when it should read like "you should reject an egg for every egg you pick up to keep the sequence equal".

>>30774523
Ah, hmm. You might be right. I probably misinterpreted that and didn't test it as much as I should have. I think that's true for the results of rejecting eggs as an entire concept.

>>30774523
Shouldn't keeping Magikarp in, rejecting a single egg (not sure if it should be the one just prior to the desired egg or the original desired egg's spot) and then swapping in the desired genderless/monogendered parents work?
For same-species parents, you just need to put them in AT the desired egg, rather than doing any rejecting, since ball roll is at the end.
That said, both should be tested before given a definitive.

Has anyone checked if the RN's "shift" one place if you start using monogender/same species pokes?
So if your first egg produces a 31/28/31/30/31/0 IV's for an Abra + Ditto, would it give 28/31/30/31/0/XX for a Tauros or XX/31/28/31/30/31 for two Abras?

>>30778856
If you want the first egg only to match, yes. But if you want to, say, keep a sequence of 5 eggs constant after swapping, you should reject one egg per egg. Of course, this needs testing. The logic is:

Generate 5 eggs with gender parents
Reset, use genderless parent now
Reject egg since gender roll is ignored
Hatch egg that matches egg 1 from original sequence
Reject egg again so next egg isn't off by one RN
Hatch egg that matches egg 2
Etc

The way the image put it, an uninformed person could believe the entire sequence would stay the same by rejecting only the first egg, when in fact you should reject one egg per egg you want. I'm going to test this as soon as I get home to confirm.

>>30780229
Didn't mean the first egg, just whichever egg was desired - the one with the IV set you want, or more likely the one that is shiny.
Like if Egg 23 is determined to be shiny via magikarping, how one would best go about fixing that to work with a genderless.

>>30780308
Probably by breeding 22 Magikarps, swapping parents, rejecting an egg and then hatching the next one. Or, you could try swapping parents at the start and reject one egg before picking up every other egg (totalling 46 before you got the right shiny). This still needs testing though, I think.

Can I do this with genderless mon and a ditto?

What are the applications of this?

>>30782466
Yes, but it's a little different. We're trying to iron that out right now. Slowly, anyway.

>>30782495
Take a look here, >>30774019
this image is more or less all of our findings

>>30782466
The dummy Pokemon you start with will be different. Magikarp works for all Pokemon that can be male or female. Pokemon that are 100% male, 100% female, or genderless are grouped together in a separate category because the game has to generate one less thing for them (gender roll). That means the dummy Pokemon you use will be different. The fastest hatching Pokemon in this Fixed-Gender category are things like Volbeat and Illumise, but those two only hatch 25% faster than most Pokemon.

When we figure out exactly how rejecting eggs affects it, it'll be possible to use Magikarp as your dummy Pokemon even for fixed gender Pokemon.

>>30782752
Don't Volbeat and Illumise have a 50/50 chance of hatching as each other anyways?

>>30782997
Oh yeah, they do. Hmm. There might not be any fixed gender Pokemon you can use that's particularly fast to hatch. All the more reason to make sure we know how we can use Magikarp for that, too.

>>30774019
You are doing god work anon, nice job

I'm the shiny magikarp anon from last thread, and I'm not sure what happened between now and then but there seems to have been some misinformation along the line.

Using Destiny knot and masuda method I got a save file where a shiny magikarp is next in line. From that same magikarp I've swapped parents and bred a shiny togepi, bounsweet, minior, dhelmise, mareanie, mimikyu, etc, every type of gender ratio except pyroar. When changing between gendered and genderless/one gender pokemon the iv spread changes as it should, but the shininess always remained as long as the parents were from different regions and held a Destiny knot. The gender was also always male regardless of the offspring ratio except for female only/genderless obviously. The ability was also set to be the hidden ability if the mother had it, or ability 2 if not.

>>30783730
That is very interesting, but it also really screws with what I thought I knew about the order that the specifics of a Pokemon were generated in the egg. We thought before that because gender was one of the very first checks, that switching to a Pokemon that doesn't roll for gender like Bounsweet or Minior would alter everything that generates after that, which we thought included IVs and shininess. But you're saying only the IVs get changed, and the shininess, and even the ability stays intact.

So swapping the parents so that it wasn't Masuda method made the egg not shiny, and taking away the destiny knot also made the egg not shiny, yeah?

>>30774019
The question isn't how far in advance everything's generated but whether anything else draws from that same source of RNs. As far as I can tell, it seems at least battling doesn't affect this.

For going from same species pairs to different species+gendered pairs, you reject one egg AFTER receiving an egg from the new different species+gendered pair, and you only need to do this if you intend to continue the sequence after getting your desired egg.

Equipping/unequipping destiny knot breaks the sequence, but the first pokemon should still have the correct nature+gender+ability.

>>30783730
Try rejecting an egg before swapping to genderless/fixed-gender parents. That should result in shininess with the same IV spread as before. The reason shininess is preserved is because Masuda method rolls 7 times for shininess (+2 if shiny charm), while going from gendered to genderless only skips one RN, so the shiny rolls should usually have significant overlap (though problems can occur due to IV inheritance using a non-fixed number of rolls, and the one with shininess might just not have been in the overlap to begin with).

>>30771037
The author of the blog post is unsure how it works, but my guess is that these determine gender and then (in some order) nature, whether hidden ability is inherited, ability (1 or 2), and encryption constant (determines Spinda spots, characteristic, Wurmple evolution).

>>30784095
So basically, if he rolled for shininess 7 times and got it on roll number 3, then even when switching to fixed gender Pokemon, he only lost one roll and the successful shiny roll would be offset to roll number 4. Or would that be roll number 2? If it was 4 in this example, then that means that had he got the shiny on the very last shiny roll, he wouldn't get it when switching to fixed gender parents because it's offset too much. Likewise if the offset moved it forward to 2, then that means if he got it on the very first shiny roll, it wouldn't maintain when switching to fixed gender parents.

So there is a chance that switching to fixed gender parents one egg before the shiny would still screw it up, and the only way then to rectify it would be rejecting one egg beforehand egg to stop the offset. Am I getting this right?

File: breeding.jpg (950KB, 1500x894px) Image search: [Google]

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So, I ran experiments to test the rejecting egg part for swapping between gendered and genderless/fixed gender mons. You can see them in pic related. I took a Marill and an Alakazam and bred 10 eggs with each of them. Noted down the IV inheritance, gender, nature and ability. The other parent was a Chinese 6IV Ditto. The cells in pink are inherited from the mom, blue from dad, green are random and orange were random incertainties that got taken care of by comparing Marill and Alakazam results.

Then, I did the same for Miltank and Lilligant, which can only be female. The catch is, before accepting an egg from the day care girl, I rejected one. I repeated this pattern 10 times, for an alternating sequence of rejecting and accepting (20 eggs total). The results matched the Marill and Alakazam results EXACTLY for IVs and nature.

Ability was also exactly the same for Miltank, who had the slot 2 ability just like Marill and Alakazam. Lilligant, however, had the slot 1 ability, which generated a completely different ability spread. Clearly, the numbers used for randomly determining the ability were the same, otherwise we wouldn't get 10 eggs to match IVs perfectly. So it seems there is a more intricate mechanism at play for ability inheritance, that takes into account the parent's ability.

Unfortunately, I have to go right now so I can't run more experiments. I will come back in a few hours to do more, though, so keep the thread alive.

>>30784500
Obviously I fucked up on the copy/paste of the gender column, the baby Miltanks and Lilligants were all female. My bad, had to hurry it.

>>30784290
Pretty much, though stat inheritance can also break it, since it keeps rolling until it gets 5 different stats (which means the number of rolls used isn't fixed).

>>30784500
So you can in fact breed magikarps for quick shinies even for genderless mons, huh. You just have to reject every other egg.

>>30784556
So he just got lucky with the Fixed Pokemon then. Lucky within reason, but it's still not safe without rejecting an egg.

>>30784500
This is irritating. I have no idea why Lilligant wouldn't pass its ability on correctly.

>>30784628
Wait, I can't even read. I misinterpreted what you said, and now understand that the reason it came up differently was that the Lilligant parent has ability slot 1. That sounds comprehensible. If the Pokemon you swapped in had an ability slot different from the original dummy Pokemon, it makes sense that it wouldn't work out correctly. But I wonder if there's a pattern to that.

When you have time later on, you should try to do this again with more parents that have their first ability, to see if it passes in exactly the same way as Lilligant.

>>30784057
Yes, if one or both are not factors it results in non shiny offspring.

>>30784095
You are correct, rejecting an egg and hatching the next one with a genderless pokemon results in a shiny pokemon with the same iv spread as gendered pokemon. It works if you swap parents before or after rejecting an egg

>>30784500
>>30784712
One set of numbers I've seen floating around is that as of gen 6 there's a 60% chance of inheriting hidden abilities and an 80% chance of inheriting the mother's normal ability. The most intuitive way this could work is that it's actually rolling a 60% chance of inheriting mother's ability and then rolls again, which determines ability 1/2 if the previous roll failed.

>>30784890
I heard it's still a single ability roll still. Instead of 80/20 inheriting mother's ability it's 60/20/20 inheritance.

Alright, later I'll add this stuff to the image, most importantly a much better explanation of how egg rejection works and how to use that to swap for fixed gender pokemon, and a better explained ability inheritance explanation. I'm also going to add a disclaimer that we don't know yet which things you can do in-game will tamper with the egg generation, if any. Not to mention whatever else gets figured out between now and my actually editing it.

>on a 700+ eggs streak for a shiny minior
>this happens

Fuck
I hope this produces results FAST

>>30785505
It's already produced results, anon.
Just breed 2 magikarps and save every 30 eggs or so. Continue until you get a shiny. Then count how many eggs you got since the last save. Breed that amount minus 1 Magikarps and then swapt to Minior. Boom, shiny Minior.

>>30785586

Minior is genderless.
It fucks with the chain.

>>30785609
Read the thread, we can manipulate that now

>>30785651

I saw something about rejecting an egg, but I don't get what it means
I just don't want to fuck up after spending days doing this shit

>>30785717
you can always SR if you dont get the shiny. But to get the shiny minior you have to reject and accept eggs in an alternating way.

>>30785796
>>30785796
>you have to reject and accept eggs in an alternating way.

I don't understand what that means
Like, accept only every other egg?
Do you start by rejecting or accepting one after the swap?

>>30785717
The entire reason that Minior and other Fixed Gender Pokemon break the chain is because right at the start of their generation, it skips the roll for gender. This offsets all of the other rolls forward by one, causing them to roll differently. In the case above, there's still a chance you'd get a shiny (if it was going to be shiny in the first place), but all of your IVs will get screwed up by the offset.

Rejecting an egg counts as only one roll. If you do that before the egg that was supposed to be a Shiny Minior, the rejection roll will take the place of the gender roll Minior was going to skip, and Minior will come out identical to the Magikarp you had in before.

That's if you swap to Minior RIGHT BEFORE the shiny egg. If you swap Minior in several eggs in advance, you have to reject an egg before every single Minior egg to make up for the lost gender roll.

>>30785825
After you've swapped Minior in, you reject on egg BEFORE receiving your first Minior egg. Then you alternate if you need the sequence to continue. If the shiny is one egg away, you won't need the sequence to continue after getting your shiny egg and can just drop it.

>>30785866

That's for shinies, right?

Is there any value in using a 6IV magikarp of the right nature, so that the shiny will have better values?

Or do IVs get fucked by the chain switch?

>>30785911
The IVs aren't what get maintained when you swap, just who they're inherited from.

For example, if the shiny egg pulled three IVs from its father (Magikarp), then when you swap in Minior, it will pull the same three IVs from its new father, Minior.

That means the Magikarp doesn't have to have the IVs you want to pass on, because they won't be what gets used. The Minior does.

If the egg inherits HP, Attack, and Speed from the Magikarp father, and the Magikarp has like, 6, 5, and 17 in those stats, it's fine, as long as the Minior you swap in has 31, 31, and 31 in those stats. It will take Minior's stats.

So it's not particularly useful if you only want to breed for a Pokemon with good stats. It's useful for shinies.

>>30785911
IVs are determined by the parent, you should have a Minor with good IVs instead of a Magikarp with good IVs

>>30785911
The IVs depend on the parents, the inheritance is what is set in stone.

Suppose your Shiny Karp gets 3 IVs from Magikarp and 2 from Ditto, while the other one is random. You then reset and change the Magikarp with a Pokemon that has the 3 IVs that got inherited from Magikarp. The resulting Pokemon will inherit those IVs.

>>30786044

Is the random aspect set in stone?

Say it's determined that all 5IVs will come from Ditto, and the sixth will be random.
If the "random" was decided to be 31, will it be 31 on every SR, or can I retry?

>>30785990
>So it's not particularly useful if you only want to breed for a Pokemon with good stats.
It's useful if you want to breed a specific spread for Hidden Power, or you can do it if you want to get 5 perfect pokemon just by swapping parents.

>>30786095
Yes, the random IV will have the same value.

>>30786095
It appears to be the case that the IV that gets randomly generated is set in stone. If you randomly generated IV is 31, it should always be 31. Every test I did led me to believe that's the case, and this graph done by another anon earlier
>>30784500
seems to show the same results.

>>30785505
Please keep in mind that it doesn't decrease the number of eggs you need to hatch a shiny, it just makes them hatch faster.

In Minior's case, using Magikarp, your eggs will hatch four times faster.

>>30786462

Yeah, I know
It means I could've hatched 2800 eggs in this time
That's bound to have a shiny, right?

RIGHT!?

>>30786500
Random is random.
It could have. It's also possible that it wouldn't.

Bump, gonna go test if other pokemon with slot 1 ability follow Lilligant's pattern

>>30789331
Have you tested HAs?

>>30789638
Not yet, mostly because I don't think I have any pokemon with their HAs.

>>30789728
I can throw one at you in an hour or so if you'd like.

File: breeding.jpg (1MB, 2150x894px) Image search: [Google]

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>>30790227
I can chain something real quick, it's fine. Here are the previous results with the new ones added in for comparison. Bred a Poliwrath and Porygon-Z with their slot 1 abilities, and got the same ability pattern I got with Lilligant, so it seems to be consistent at least. What's weird is that there isn't much of a pattern to it, even though they're supposedly using the same rolls.

>>30790729
That's weird. Maybe it's something like roll under 80 to pass on Ability 1, but roll over 20 to pass on Ability 2.

>>30791487
If abilities are 80-20 or 60-20-20 or the likes, wouldn't it be easier to do it out of 5?

>>30790729
Looks consistent with 60% chance to pass same ability and then randomly choose between 1/2 for the other 40%, since every time the child has the opposite ability matches.

>>30791692
By matches, I mean every time an ability 1 parent has a child with ability 2, it's still ability 2 when using the ability 2 parent, and vice versa.

>>30791727
That is not the case at all, child 3 (first bold) got ability 1 when parent had ability 2 and still got ability 1 when parent had ability 1.

>>30791487
I've been thinking and I think I have figured it out, or at least this makes sense:

Roll a number [0, 100] for ability. Let's say, for the sake of an example, that the parent breeding with a Ditto has 80% chance to pass down its ability. However, the parent can have one of two abilities, so you need to map the roll according to the ability the parent has:

If parent has ability 1, map it 80-20.
If parent has ability 2, map it 20-80.

That way, let's say that the first five children in that example from the image rolled the following numbers:

50, 98, 11, 44, 2

If we use the mapping above, we would get the following results for a parent with ability 1/2, respectively:

1, 2, 1, 1, 1
2, 2, 1, 2, 1

Basically, you map your interval from the left when the parent has ability 1, and from the right when it has ability 2. We'd need data for HA to see if this makes any sense though, this is just a wild guess. Unfortunately it's late and I can't test more stuff. Is there a way to check which numbers are being rolled with PkHex or some other software?

>>30791846
Actually nevermind my reply, I understand what you meant with the 60/20/20 now. It's a possibility, but I guess we'd need the HA data to test it out, since we'd have 3 different outcomes to look at.

>>30790729
Well, alright then. Just thought I'd offer.

>>30791846
That makes sense. Maybe it's actually mapped 20-60-20. That way, the middle 60 passes on the mother's ability, the first 20 maps to ability 1, and the last 20 maps to ability 2.
If this is the case, then the theoretical rolls you provided with a HA mother would map to

HA, 2, 1, HA, 1

>>30791846
That's exactly what I meant by match.

>>30791903
Ah well, now I see this.
Yeah, the HA data should make it clear whether it's the case.

>>30791846
You should see what happens if you start with Magikarp, who has no ability 2, and then swap it out for a Pokemon with ability 2. I'm curious about if the roll it makes for Magikarp (does it still make one? It must), will translate to offspring from the new parent getting a mix of abilities 1 and 2. Or if the ability 2 parent ends up only creating eggs with ability 1 despite the fact that ability 2 should be more likely.

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I'm not exactly a breeder, but I wanted to test this and got a shiny Mimikyu in 15 eggs using the MM. I'm trying to follow as good as I can these threads, but sadly English isn't my first language.

Has Serebii or any "poketuber" confirmed or tried this?

>>30792473
None to my knowledge. Is there anything you would like to know?

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Bumpy

why are you all so allergic to using disassembly
http://pastebin.com/tTgGEZ5t

>>30792473
Oddly enough, nobody outside of this thread seems to be putting any research into it, which is a bit of a shame. I guess SOS chaining is just too popular for quick shiny hunting.

A basic rundown of what we've found is on >>30774019 but what you really need to know for shiny breeding is this:
>As long as you Masuda Method for the entire breeding process, your eggs will always be the same when you soft-reset
>Therefore it's possible to breed Magikarp (which have the fastest hatching time), saving every box or so.
>When you hatch a shiny Magikarp, soft-reset your game without saving.
>Your file should load to before you even got the shiny magikarp egg. This is important, if you've already picked up the egg that will hatch shiny, it's not-exploitable
>Replace both parents in the daycare to the desired Masuda-compliant pair
>If your desired shiny is of a one gender or genderless species, you must reject every other egg, starting from the first egg you receive (reject, accept, reject, accept, etc.)
>Your shiny will hatch in the exact same egg that used to be a shiny magikarp before the soft reset
Right now, we're determining how the RNG parses other results, such as IVs passed down with Destiny Knot (we've got that mostly figured out), gender (also mostly figured out), and Ability passed down (currently in experiments/theorycrafting)

>>30792512
Nah bro, I think I'm good for now. Still following these threads, tho. The question is: will GF patch this?

>>30792874
Wow, thanks for tl;dr everything for me on these threads. Thanks!

I also sent the Serebii Twitter account the preliminary info image on this thread but I think he ignored it. Maybe if enough people or Verlisfag/Tamashi report it he will catch on.

Has anyone checked to see if the "same-species" sequence break still applies if both parent pokemon are in the same type of ball, since that would in theory get rid of the ball check? Or is it still doing a check for ball type, just that it's the same regardles (i.e. 50% chance of Great Ball, 50% chance of Great Ball)

>>30793015
The image has some mistakes in it and is lacking a few key pieces of information we've found, so that's fine. It would be better off sent out when it's more finalized.

>>30793023
Yes, I used a pair of Abras (both in Pokeballs), and a pair of Magikarp (one in Pokeball, one in Beast Ball), and they both had the same issue. It must roll even if they have the same ball.

>>30792845
If you know how to use and comprehend it, you're welcome to use it to contribute.

File: breeding.jpg (308KB, 760x473px) Image search: [Google]

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>>30792845
Nice, I'll take a look at it now and see if I can deduce anything interesting. And well, you can't expect most people to understand what's going on there, naturally they won't jump to disassembly.

So I decided to say fuck it and ran a quick experiment with a HA Mareanie. Results in pic related. I'll take a look at the disassembly now, since I couldn't quite conclude much from the HA test.

>>30792845
Where exactly did you get this from?

>>30793015
No problem! Just some additional conditions to point out:
>If your desired shiny is offspring of two of the same species (not evolutionary line, the specific species), your magikarp breeding must be between two magikarps. This ensures consistency due to the extra roll to determine ball inheritance.
>If your desired shiny uses Destiny Knot and Everstone for IVs and Nature, the Magikarp breeding must also use Destiny Knot and Everstone, because Destiny Knot breeding involves a different number of rolls compared to breeding without Destiny Knot. I don't know for sure whether Everstone locking in nature also has an effect.

>>30793309
Look who uploaded the paste
It's from the demo, but the same code is in the full game

>>30793325
Everstone doesn't change anything besides the nature in my tests, you can use it and swap it on and off without any harm.

>>30792874
So if I use masuda karps. I also need masuda new parents?

>>30793381
If you're breeding two Magikarp that are different languages (Masuda Method), when you swap, you will two parents of the SAME SPECIES that are also different languages

Magikarp (JP) + Magikarp (ENG)
swapped to
Ditto (JP) + Grubbin (ENG)
won't work because even though it's still Masuda, the species are different. You would need a Masuda set of two Grubbin.

Same-species breeding seems like a lot more trouble than it's worth for what you have to keep in mind.

>>30793381
>So if I use masuda karps. I also need masuda new parents?
Yes. The advantage of Masuda with Magikarp is that they hatch much faster than, say, Masuda with Gibles. This way, you can churn through 10 boxes of non-shiny magikarps faster than 10 boxes of non-shiny gibles to reach that one box with a shiny magikarp, which is soft-resetted into being a shiny gible

>>30793257
That is interesting, especially when compared to the previous entries
Also either you got very unlucky, or something with two abilities is much more unlikely to pass on its HA than something with a single regular ability trying to pass its HA via Ditto.

Not sure if this has been answered yet, but if you have already got the shiny Magikarp and know which egg was in, when you reset, are you able to simply reject the amount of eggs needed to essentially skip hatching potentially 30+ eggs?

To make it clear, if I got the Magikarp on the 10th egg (Magikarp ENG + Destiny Knot Ditto JP pairing), reset and put in Drampa ENG with Ditto, could I just reject the first 9 eggs and still get the shiny on the 10th egg? Or would that just mess the whole thing up?

>>30793257
So from what I can tell, HA inheritance is mapped to 40+. Consistent to the breeding that you did with the Ability 2 parent, the offspring that got Ability 1 stayed the same and HA offspring only replaced Ability 2 offspring. However, comparing the Ability 1 breeding, HA replaced both Ability 1 and Ability 2 offspring.

>>30793707
Rejecting an egg doesn't skip the Pokemon that would have been in it, no. If you reject eggs except to correct your sequence with gender-fixed pokemon, you'll mess it up. You don't have to hatch the eggs, but you do have to collect them.

>>30793707
That does not work. Rejecting an egg rolls the RNG a different number of times than accepting it and letting the game roll its parameter.
However, you don't have to hatch every egg leading up to the shiny one. If you know that the tenth egg after the reset is shiny, you can accept all ten eggs, but box the first nine and only hatch the last one.

>>30793257
So, I'm looking at the part of the code that determines ability, you can check it at line 273. This is about to get a bit technical, so yea.

Line 273 makes a call for gfl2::math::Random::Next(v6[3], 100u), which seems to get the next random value from the generator and put it in a [0, 99] range, including only integers. A guess would be that 100 is an upper bound that can't be reached and u says it's an unsigned integer. Similar function call happened before where 2u was passed instead, and it had a comment saying "50%", so I'd assume this is correct.

It then checks if you're breeding with a ditto, in which case the pokemon to inherit ability from is the first one (non-ditto). Otherwise, it always chooses the female. It then checks and branches control flow based on the parent's ability. From what I understand, 0 is ability 1, 1 is ability 2, and 2 is hidden ability.

If parent has ability value 0, it compares the random value it generated with 80, and if it is smaller, the child inherits ability 1. Otherwise, it gets ability 2. If the parent has ability value 1 however, it compares the value with 20, and then inherits ability 1 if the roll is smaller than 20, otherwise giving it ability 2. This basically proves my intuition on the 80-20 / 20-80 thing was right, it seems.

Now, if the parent has the hidden ability, it checks the random value against 20. If it is smaller, child is given ability 1. It then checks against 40. If it is smaller, child is given ability 2. If it is greater than or equal to 40, child gets the hidden ability.

So effectively, for non-HA parents, the roll is 80-20 for ability 1, 20-80 for ability 2. For a HA parent, the roll is 20-20-60. Other anon that said 20-60-20 was pretty close.

So there you have it, ability inheritance for gen 7 explained.

>>30793786
So does this mean that the number it rolls for ability will generate the same way even after reseting and swapping the parents. Which would mean that even if a Magikarp deposited first didn't have its Hidden Ability, it could still roll for ability such that when you deposited a parent that does have its Hidden Ability, you might still get an HA egg?

>>30793757
>>30793774
Ok. I knew you could reject to sync/correct in that situation, but as I haven't tried going for a fixed gender shiny this way yet, I didn't take a deep enough look. Thanks for letting me know! I find this kind of stuff interesting, and I'm surprised more people aren't into looking at it.

>>30793846
Yes, but it'd be safer to use a species that has 2 possible abilities, with a parent that has the hidden ability so you can know for sure what your child will have. Anyway, the number roll for ability is the same no matter what. How it is interpreted depends on the parent only.
tl;dr yes

>>30793846
Yes, that's possible. Other possibly notable interactions:
>a HA magikarp offspring will always be Ability 2 if the relevant parent after SR has Ability 2
>Ability 1 offspring of an Ability 2 parent will always have Ability 1 regardless of whether the parent after SR has Ability 1, Ability 2, or HA

>>30793909
Alright, cool.

So we know how ability is generated and passes on, as well as gender. The things we've found that cause the swap to not work correctly are:
swapping to/from Fixed Gender parents
swapping to/from Same-Species parents
swapping to/from Masuda parents
equipping/unequipping the Destiny Knot
and the last one is the only one we don't really have a solution for. I don't think there is a solution for the last one and it doesn't actually cause any problems.

What else is still a mystery? What other things you can do in the game that might influence the RNG the eggs use without you knowing?

>>30793786
So I decided to look back on the experiments and determine the possible rolls I got for the children there, and ended up with specific intervals for the rolls and the possible inheritances for each of them:

[40, 79] -> Will always inherit ability from parent
[80, 99] -> Will have HA if parent does, ability 2 otherwise
[0, 19] -> Always has ability 1
[20, 39] -> Will always inherit ability from parent, except HA, in which case, gets ability 2
[0, 19] -> Always has ability 1
[0, 19] -> Always has ability 1
[40, 79] -> Will always inherit ability from parent
[40, 79] -> Will always inherit ability from parent
[20, 39] -> Will always inherit ability from parent, except HA, in which case, gets ability 2
[20, 39] -> Will always inherit ability from parent, except HA, in which case, gets ability 2

So let's say, for sake of argument, I start MMing for a shiny Magikarp, saving every 30 or so, and I eventually get to a point where after I save, I do 10 eggs and get a shiny. I reset, but the Nursery girl still has an egg ready. do I take that egg, swap to the pokemon I want (assuming no broken chain), and then get 9 more eggs, or do I reject the egg that's already ready, switch to the pokemon I want, and then do 10?

>>30794201
You accept the egg. Rejecting any egg that you hadn't before throws off the RNG (except for the aforementioned rejections necessary to synchronize genderless mons)

>>30794201
Don't reject the egg.

>offsets
So you've figured out that the game makes a large number of RNG rolls, then assigns them in order to the egg attributes?

So looking at the disassembly, there is a section that treats the Illumise/Volbeat scenario someone mentioned earlier in the thread as being fixed gender, it actually isnt, the game rolls a random number to determine gender just like regular pokemon do. Also, the gender roll is based on the baby's gender ratio, so if you breed a Shedinja, your Nincada will roll normally for gender despite Shedinja being genderless. Just figured I should clear up the questions asked earlier.

>>30794049
I guess the only mystery left is determining what affects the random seed that is generating numbers, and how far ahead we can "foresee" the numbers / when it switches seeds.

Out of curiosity, does anyone have the disassembly for the function that generates a PID and the function that checks whether a pokemon is shiny? I want to see if I can manipulate the shiny rolls based on the gender / ability / IV rolls.

>>30794411
The big thing is that the game has a large number of rolls prerolled (currently unknown how far it goes), so soft resetting can get you predictable results even with different inputs.
Thus, the true reason why Alola has more Magikarp than any other region.

>>30794411
Basically, yes. The big thing is that Egg RNG is apparently not tied to system time, chatot cries, or any other obscure part of the game and so, even though traditional RNG manipulation is out, magikarp breeding and soft resets can still help you get a shiny or a perfect IV pokemon faster.

>>30794485

barrage of resource links below

https://gist.github.com/odanado/94c011ca482b46bb6cbe8e2e815066ce
http://pastebin.com/pKhUaK0A

egg RNG seed is stored in the save file (displayed by PKHeX)

>>30794702

links continued, the japanese researching effort:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/x_x_saki_x_x/archives/55570518.html
see links to blastoise-x and odanpoyo as well from ^

Someone confirm for me. If you were breeding via Masuda Method originally, and then for some strange reason decided to swap so that you weren't anymore, could you receive the first egg, and then reject 6 eggs, and then continue alternating like that to correct the offset?

Version 2. Much denser, hopefully with fewer inaccuracies.

Viewable RNG seeds and disassembly are a bit beyond me, so I don't think I can perform any more experiments on m

>>30795291
It won't be exactly the same, because you'll be replacing the beginning rolls (nature, gender, etc) and possibly one of the IV rolls I think? And as soon as you hit IV rolls it can snowball out of control.
You are best off doing either full masuda or full nonmasuda.

>>30795578
>Version 2
>Nothing linked or uploaded
??

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>>30795584
If Shiny rolls are at the end, why would be replace the beginning rolls? By doing that switch you skip six rolls, and replace it with six from the egg rejection, it doesn't seem any different in principle to me from doing the same thing to replace ball inheritance rolls when swapping from same-species to different-species.

>>30795578
>>30795616
>>30795620
I forgot to upload it, went to upload it, saw the post saying that rejecting 6 eggs for a Masuda -> non-Masuda switch might not work, went to edit the image, then inquired about the switch but still kept the image uploaded and posted it anyway.

Anyway,
>I don't think I can perform any more experiments on my own
is what I meant to write to begin with.

Idk if this helps at all but I just tried this out and hatched about a box of magikarp and a shiny appeared. I saved before the daycare lady had an egg ready while Karp and jap ditto were in daycare. I Saved every 6 eggs or so cuz I have shiny charm and already masuda methoded myself some shinies. Anyway, I got a shiny karp then reset to make it a cubone. Did all this in less than 40 minutes. This method works great, gunna hatch magikarp forever now. The sad part is, wondertrade will be bland without breeding rejects.

>>30795620
Thanks for the image! Saved.

>>30795620
Currently breeding for a shiny female Salandit and it's killing me (of course, a shiny male popped out very quickly). Onto my third box now of 100% females (I just release the males). Breeding five boxes of dummy Magikarp sounds mighty tempting, to try for that roll of 8.

>>30795620
so, if i already have the shiny charm and already have the foreign ditto for breeding, i can just follow the basic instructions, right?

>>30795789
why'd you save every six eggs? should i do that? sorry, just trying to pin this down.

Friend of mine set me up on getting 6IVs, but is this the most effective method?

>Catch 2-3 Dittos with 4+ IVs
>Destiny Knot Ditto, Optional Everstone on parent
>Breed until child has the same IVs as the Ditto
>Swap Ditto out for another Ditto with different max IVs, at least the two you're missing on the child
>Breed until you get two 5 IV children with different IVs (one with HP, the other with Sdef, for example)
>Breed both 5IV children together with Destiny Knot and Everstone
>1/32 chance of getting 6IV

Is this right, or no? I'm going for a shiny Wimpod, but if I'm doing it, I want to go for the best IVs I can. I have bottle caps, but I still want to do this grind for once.

>>30796093
Just cuz high chance of shiny. I had a hunch it was coming fast. Make sure you only save when you DONT have eggs and everything's hatched. DONT save when the bitch has her arms crossed. You don't wanna save with a shiny magikarp by chance at all.

>>30796093
For those situations in the "Special cases and solutions" section, they can only affect what you're doing if you switch in the middle. If you already have a shiny charm and a foreign ditto, you should be fine.

You don't have to save every six eggs, but you do need to save regularly. If you only save at the start, and it takes 5 boxes to get a shiny, when you reset to swap the parents, you'll have to sit through recollecting 5 boxes of eggs. If you save after the egg has already spawned (which would be when the daycare lady folds her arms), you won't be able to modify it anymore. I would recommend saving every 15 or 30 eggs.

>>30796105
If you are breeding two 5iv parents, you do not have a 1/32 chance of getting a 6iv. What can happen is that out of the 5 IVs the destiny knot chooses to pass on, it selects that one pokemon's bad HP, the other pokemon's bad Special Defense, 3 perfects, and randomly generates the last one. So you could get only a 3iv.

The only way you'd even get a 5iv child is if you were lucky enough that the destiny knot completely avoided the bad HP and bad special defense stats your parents have and only picks perfects.

>>30796143
>>30796175

so, with the shiny charm already, i should -

-save in front of the nursery (empty)
-deposit foreign ditto+magicarp
-hatch one box of eggs, for example
-let's say the 15th egg was a shiny magicarp
-reset game, don't save
-deposit foreign ditto+let's say adamant kommo-o
-hatch the one box of eggs
-the 15th egg *should* be a shiny kommo-o with an adamant nature

is this correct?

>>30796210
sorry, obviously the adamant kommo-o parent would have an everstone equipped

>>30796210
>>30796219
Yes, that's correct. If it screws up somehow please let us know so we can figure out why. But based on everything we've figured out, it shouldn't.

>>30796210
Yes correct.

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>>30796238
>>30796241
brilliant, you anons are amazing. i'll be giving this a try tomorrow night for sure, hopefully this thread will still be alive. i want to at least try for one more shiny salandit (seems everybody wants the white lady, and masuda blesses everyone with a male instead), but otherwise my next MM hunt will certainly be using this effort, whether it be for a female salandit or for something else. using a magicarp to pop out two to three boxes at a time sounds like heaven, compared to dragon eggs.

>>30795620
Unfortunately, it's late and I need to sleep, but I am fairly certain that at least one way or the other, trying to drop six rolls is going to royally fuck things up and not get the results you actually want, simply because the IV rolls are not a set number of rolls.

>>30796435
For going Masuda->nonmasuda or nonmasuda->Masuda, can't think as to which, too tired right now. Someone better at this might be able to explain better but that bottom part is probably best removed, and you're best off just keeping things strictly Masuda or strictly non-Masuda.

>>30796435
Alright, I'll remove it then. It's not like dropping that many eggs every time is really practical when all it lets you do is swap over to a worse breeding method.

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but do I leave the ditto in? Like put it in, save, magikarp until shiny, SR, then put in the pokemon I want instead? Or am I supposed to not put it in, save, then put both in?

>>30796458
Plus, if you're shiny hunting, swapping to nonmasuda - even if it DID work like that - could well not net you a shiny anyways, due to what the masuda method does in the first place

>>30796521
You mean right at the start? You can save before you put either parent in, save after you put just the Ditto in, or save after you've put both parents in. It doesn't matter.

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>>30795620
Version 2.1

>>30796628
So this is awkward.
It looks like you might not be able to do this for shinies if you aren't using Masuda method and don't also have shiny charm. Anyway, best to caution against trying this without Masuda method.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/breeding-rng-quirk.3589338/page-2

>>30794485
The disassembly for the PID generation function is on page 1 of that Smogon thread, it literally just does TinyMT to get an RN though.

Also, if I'm looking at the disassembly correctly, it means Masuda method may not actually have been buffed, and shiny charm non-Masuda may have been nerfed (unless previous gen egg generation worked this way as well).

>>30797202
I've very curious now if Shiny Charm without Masuda Method does work.

Ah well, I found some typos there I wanted to fix but didn't want to flood the thread with tiny revisions. This seems like a good enough reason to edit it. Though I'll wait until we know a bit more to revise it.

>>30797366
Shiny charm w/o Masuda should work. It's only the no-shiny charm no-Masuda where it looks like it won't work.

>>30797414
Huh, so shiny rerolls are linked to the egg seed, but the initial shiny roll isn't?
Well, given the abundance of breedjects on WT and the distribution of hackdittos, it looks like there's no reason not to Masuda Method whenever you can.

Not really related to the research at hand, but is the Masuda Method based off language or region? Would an English-language mon from America work with an English-language mon from Germany?

>>30797618
What you're looking for is the little tab you can see on the Pokemon's summary that I believe would say "GER" if it's from Germany. As long as those tabs are different (or one has a tab and one doesn't), it'll be the Masuda Method.

>>30797681
All right, thanks!

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>>30797202
>>30797414
>>30797529
Hmm, I'm a bit antsy, especially given that I won't be able to update it until tomorrow night if I don't do it now, and this seems pretty concrete given that it's come from examining the inner workings of the game directly, so here's a quick fix. I wish there wasn't a timed cutoff for deleting old images here.

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>mfw reading the Smogon thread about this thing

>>30798645
I can't deny that their methods are more efficient and more thoroughly backed up by factual information, but I've really enjoyed the more backwater research we did here, even if that meant we needed to be helped along by people who could actually parse code and read the existing japanese research on this to make progress at certain points.

>>30798645
Can you please link it? Can't find it

>>30799836
Did you even try though?

>>30797202
Looking at the disassembly more carefully, it seems that you can yes manipulate shininess but it's not guaranteed. The code for that section, that starts on line 424, seems to go like this:

>Game makes a call for sub_296154, which simply generates the next random value via some TinyMT, based on the value of v6[3]. This will be the base PID for a pokemon, and it's the roll common to everyone regardless of charm or MM.
>Game checks if you have charm / MM / both, and updates the reroll count to 2 / 6 / 8.
>It then generates a new PID by calling sub_296154 with the value of v6[3] as well (note that v66=v6[3]) for each reroll available, stopping if it encounters a shiny.

What's curious is that if there are rerolls available, then the reroll simply overwrites the original PID without even checking for shininess. Meaning that if you rolled a shiny PID originally, MM/charm would ironically overwrite that and then check for a shiny PID again, effectively making the shiny rolls for nothing / charm / MM / both equal to 1 / 2 / 6 / 8. Just like what it was in the previous gen.

What is also curious is the fact that the first PID roll stores the value at the address outpkm, while the rerolls store the value at address outpkm + 0x08. What's worse, the function that checks for shininess takes in address outpkm + 0x10, which is 8 addresses ahead of where the reroll write its result, and 16 ahead of the original roll. I'm not too sure what this could mean, since I'm not even sure what is being stored anyway.

>>30799979
cont.

The point is, the game still uses a TinyMT algorithm based on the same seed as the other rolls, which means that you could reject eggs from changing to MM+charm to charm only, dropping the number of rolls from 9 to 3, so rejecting 6 eggs between children should mean that the 3 rolls for the second child will be the same between methods. Of course, this does NOT mean the pokemon from both methods will both be shiny, since the shiny roll could have been the last MM one, which you never rolled without MM, and ended up skipping over by rejecting eggs.

So to summarize, you could go from MM+charm to charm only by doing the following:
>Swap parents from MM parents to non-MM parents
>Accept first egg
>Reject 6 eggs
>Accept second egg

What this should do is preserve shininess if and only if the shiny roll originally came from the first 2 rerolls. All of this can be disputed if the second TinyMT function doesn't REALLY do the same thing as the global Rand one, updating the next value to be generated in different ways (example, instead of advancing 1 number on the list of random numbers, it could advance, say, 2), meaning that by skipping 6 values you wouldn't get the same results. We need someone to test it.

DISCLAIMER: This method, if it works, will fuck up with ball inheritance since the roll for that comes after generating shiny PIDs.

>>30799993
Not just fuck up ball inheritance.
Doesn't work at all with ball inheritance, due to what you're skipping.
But the cases where you're getting masuda ball inheritance and then swapping to nonmasuda are going to be low anyways - it's what, accidental shinies when going for egg moves with breedjects received from GTS/WT and that's about it?

Bumpitty