/civ4xg/ - Strategy/4X General

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>>173007401
Postan'

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Reposting complete 1.5 Civics list. What setup will you go for first?

http://archive.is/c4HZY

>>173011513
>hivemind civics are just renames of other civics

that's sort of dissapointing

>>173011835
To be honest the whole implementation makes it look like an afterthought.

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>>173011835
They dont have any of the fun stuff other authorities have. But they function differently so I guess that makes up for it. Looks to me like they wanted to make a few play styles possible instead of making hive minds pure expanding war machine

I want meaningful spying, something like in imperium galactica 2.
to steal shit from tech through ships to pops themsefs
to catch enemy spies and turn them double agents
to set off weapons off mass destructions on planets
to convert pops to my views
to puppet planets into my empire
to incite rebellions, to create factions
to basicaly found KGB so niggers asking for independece somehow disappear

>>173012268
>Stealing tech
I'd want this to function the same as salvaging their wrecks. You dont get their tech you just get some research and research their tech faster.

>to catch enemy spies and turn them double agents
Sounds boring like just getting a free unit, mechanically.

>to set off weapons off mass destructions on planets
So they have to repair a pop tile? I suppose I can see that. Doesn't seem like a big deal though

>to convert pops to my views
Pass, I would wait for that to be in the religion system.

>to puppet planets into my empire
I don't know how I'd feel about planet flipping. That was an unfun mechanic in civ.

>to incite rebellions, to create factions
Thats the only thing I'd really want from a spy system. That and being able to give troops to another nation for proxy wars.

>>173011835
Eh, I've been wanting to play as a hivemind for awhile, it's nice they finally did it but it does seem rather...basic in it's implementation. Not terrible, not great, just ok. Which is fine, it still does its job and I'm debating on either a full on 40k Imperium complete with god emperor, or a hive mind bug race and face off against the Prethoryn.

>>173012268
for 20$ 1 from now :^)

>>172981428

Just wanted to compliment that guys emblem for 10/10 aesthetics. I really, really liked it.

>>173014439
> play Hivemind
> win
> special post-victory screen with "You turn your attention outwards, there are more stars to become You"
> You are the HAK now

>>173012491
>Sounds boring like just getting a free unit, mechanically.
Not the guy that made that post, but when I read "turn them double spies", I was thinking sending them back with your stolen tech (or so the enemy thinks) and instead they give them false leads on my tech/sabotage their current tech for them so they have to research it again.

>>173015676
It would be better if you could use entirely organic ships, maybe a special tech branch and skin focused on that only available to hiveminds.

>>173016310
Should have been part of biologic ascension, or talking to/taming space amoebas.

>>173015676
related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POYgUfr9XeI

>>173016310
Some ideas:

>Hiveminds get access to special ship sections that have more hangar slots, simulating their ability to greater coordinate large wings of smaller ships and less accommodations for their drones
>tech that increases fire rate, simulating a smoother operating crew
>bioengineering drones to be vicious warriors for ground combat
>more militia in ground combat, everyone is capable of fighting and dying for the hive
>A policy setting for how autonomous you want your leaders to be, possibly risking a breakaway section that must be reintegrated by force or a special project, or alternatively, a tradeoff of efficiency in certain areas like energy/mineral production for research and vice versa

>>173016798
Hive mind doesn't really specify bioengineering.
That's a general thing they can persue as anyone else can.

Should be able to have hivemind robots too.

Is to say that the first statement is fact and the second statement is opinion.

>>173017468
They can, but I'd like to see an all organic Hivemind that is capable of pushing the bioengineering further than non-Hiveminds.

>>173018360
I just checked and they can't do the spiritualist or mechanical ascensions.

>>173019159
I wasn't referring to the robots thing, that's just retarded, I meant "they (other civs) can (do bio engineering) but..."

Should have made it more clear.

>>173019793
Oh okay, I got you.
They're fluffed out to be a psionic hivemind, but they can't do the spiritualist memery. Which I guess can best be written off as like the Tyranids, being psychic and of the warp, but not interacting with anything else as an individual.

For additional bio-engineering I guess it'd be fine to give them more. That's one of the weaker parts of the game. Need to go full combine rather than the weak system we have at the moment.
The ascension is just lackluster as well because it just strengthens the existing mechanic rather than fixing it.

>>173020069
That's my point, I'd like to see the ability to create certain drone castes that excel in mining, energy production, fighting, adapting to new enviroments, etc that you unlock and then improve through research and the traits thing.

Gentlemen, how do we make armor relevant? I just don't see any point in wasting a utility slot when I can get another shield.

>>173021032
by balancing the numbers obviously

>>173021616
In what way? I'd like to see them be a flat reduction in damage as opposed to percentage based. That way you wind up with battleships that need Large weapons to even pierce it's armor, and slapping a bit of armor on a corvette actually helps it survive for longer as opposed to reducing damage by like 6%. 6% of only 10 damage ain't shit, especially when HP is only 300. Shields outright eclipse it in terms of actual damage soak and that's before you even get into the fact almost every weapon reduces armor anyway.

>spiritualist ethic
>no religion mechanics

>>173022062
Doesn't matter in which way. Only difference would be in how many numbers they change.

shields take more power is probably the most simple idea
Or you could move around every number and have EVElike setups with no generator spots(even for weapons) and full armor
Which is okay in theory but would obviously fall apart in practice considering how easy it is to ignore armor. Which would then require adjusting the things that ignore armor.
And so on.

The how is basic, the maths are the hard part.

>>173022134
But the spiritualist ethic IS a religion mechanic.
And there's literally "theocratic oligarchies" and everything (for the next 2 days).
What more do you want!?

>>173022336
Will we get separatists fighting for different interpretations of some old scripture?

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>>173022336
>tfw you will never be able to convert the heathens from other systems to mormonism

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Is anyone playing the ES2 early access? Thoughts? I enjoyed ES1 a lot, debating buying in early or waiting for the full release.

>>173022835
>I enjoyed ES1
Serious question.
How?

>>173022917

What are you comparing it to? I didn't play thousands of hours, I doubt its mechanics would hold up that well, but I played a few games and enjoyed it. I haven't tried Stellaris, is it significantly better? What other modern space 4X is the frame of reference?

>>173022315
I'd say make armor a flat reduction in damage, slightly increase power consumption of shields, maybe an extra 2.5 across the board and a slight buff to shield regeneration. Shields drop like nothing once a ship gets focused on, a slight regen buff means they get a bit more survivability, combined with flat armor means you have to think more about weapon and fleet composition. A battleship with 30 armor is effectively immune to small weapons. You would need specialized ships to deal with it, counter ships, counter-counterships, etc, etc. I think it would do a pretty good job at forcing you to build more than a model or two of each ship size and calling it good.

>>173022917
I could easily see someone who only put a dozen hours or so in to it finding it really comfy.

>>173022917
I've got almost 150 hours in ES1, played most of those with a friend. I think the tech tree and building system is done pretty well. Not to mention the music is worth playing over other games!

>>173022976
Unironically yes, it's better, even with its flaws. And define modern. MoO is fucking amazing. Distant Worlds isn't pretty, the UI is a bit opaque but it's basically what Stellaris was shooting for with more casualized mechanics. There's a shit ton of space 4x games that are better than Endless Space. Not that Endless Space is terrible, it's just an average game in a field of giants.

Is the new Master of orion worth looking into?

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>>173022336
An actual religion mechanic with bonuses as it spreads through spiritualist empires.
Religions having a chance to split into sub-factions which causes friction inside an empire.
Materialists spreading their own "atheism" religion/education to prevent spiritualism religions from entering their empire and ruining their materialism bonuses.

Would add a cultural element to the game.

>>173023090
>music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yupbwsSfGsE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exRFQXX3oeg

high hopes for ES2 music

>>173022976
I don't really have a frame of reference and I hesitate to call Stellaris better than anything.

>>173023020
>>173023090
It failed to catch me at all, not enough atmosphere, not enough of anything in general.
Hands off battles fell flat. Hardly any opportunity to roleplay.
Didn't much care for the races, though the setting was fine.

I fucking loved Endless Legend, it's great in every way ES1 isn't.
I played one game, I think about average map size and enemy civs. I got around 1/4 through before I entered automatic mode and disregarded everything in order to win as quickly as possible, because I was offered nothing else in that first period, and it sure as hell didn't appear later on.

For space 4X sort of game I'd rather play over ES1 I'd list Distant Worlds(also deeply flawed in the economy{the player's ability to interact with it and the simplicity of raw cash, the resource simulation was spectacular}), Stellaris(flat and soulless but still kinda fun and kinda immersive at the faceless leader figure level of Grand Strategy, along with a great aesthetic),
Sins of a Solar Empire(basically zero ability to roleplay and slow to the point of obnoxiousness, but still more fun to actually try and win, also it's an RTS I guess)

>>173023417
Ah yeah, I've played more DW than ES1, but it really sucks that it's so clunky and singleplayer only. Stellaris is my favourite so far though, I can't wait to see what it's like after a whole bunch of major DLCs in the years to come.

>>173023306

>define modern. MoO is fucking amazing

I wouldn't call 24 years old modern for a video game. Obviously everything is relative but for this industry I'd say 5-10 years is modern. Unless you're talking about the new one, which I haven't tried but haven't heard great things about.

The visuals of Distant Worlds really put me off but I'll give it a shot. I just feel that calling it a "field of giants" is inaccurate, unless you're going back to the 90s. 4X is not that big of a genre and the only dominant force is Civ, which is obviously not a space game and is significantly different from ES/Stellaris/etc

>>173023349
Oh, you want some Civ style religion. Nah, you already have that with the ethics system and having something stupid like space missionaries spreading a religion that gives bonus unity or minerals is too stupid and illfitting for the style of game Stellaris is.

>>173023417

>Didn't much care for the races

I felt the same way, ES2 seems to be stepping it up a bit in this regard. Baffled as to why they brought the Sophons back though, I thought they were one of the most generic and forgettable designs of ES1.

>I fucking loved Endless Legend, it's great in every way ES1 isn't.

Could you elaborate? They seem pretty difficult to compare, but I've played very little of EL. The races of EL did seem to have very distinct playstyles though which I appreciated and it seems ES2 is trying to carry that forward.

>>173023797
You have to go back to the 90s for space 4x games. There just haven't been many made in the past 10 years, I could probably list the major ones on one hand and if you want to count Sins. But if you go bacj to the 90s, you're stacked up against some pretty damn great games.

>>173023878
There is literally no reason a civ style religion system could not work for stellaris. Ethics are also nothing like religion.

>>173022835
It has all the bugs, issues, and general weirdness that comes with an early access game, but it plays well. It very much shows how much Amplitude learned since ES1.

>>173024250
I'm not saying it couldn't physically work. I'm just saying it would be stupid and not fit with the rest of the game.

>>173024315
It would add more depth. As it is now stellaris is just about war.

>>173024403
>implying religion is not just about war.

"My God has a bigger dick than your God!" *blam*

>>173024403
It wouldn't add anything. It didn't even add anything in Civ other than another batch of units to manage and a new diplo modifier that was irrelevant due to the retarded AI. At best, it added your choice of bonuses which are mechanically fulfilled by the ethics system. The difference being, with the ethics system you're not going to have your preferred bonus yanked from you by an AI that cranks out a million fucking missionaries to spread his shitty religion and take away your pagodas and Jesuit education

>>173024534
t. materialist

>>173024630
t. Main reason why we can't have nice things.

>>173024604
I have to agree with this. Despite the fair effort behind the religion mechanics in (for example) Civ 5 & 6 it's just adds nothing in the end. It's extremely unnecessary and shallow.

>>173024604
It adds a way to achieve victory through means other than MOAR WAR. I'm sure some faggots just want to kill others but it is also a very shallow way of playing.

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>conversation got me interested in possible future victory conditions
>find this
>AI doesn't even try to win

>>173024604
>>173024739
without the missionaries it could be kind of interesting

>>173025470
Technically, the AI never tries to win. It tries to oppose you, but doesn't aim for winning.
This is why I don't play with humans, they're much, much worse than the AIs.

>>173025470
I'm honestly okay with that. Winning has never really been the point most of the time in these games anyway.

>>173024856
While I agree there should be more ways to achieve a victory in Stellaris aside from conquer everyone, religion definitely isn't the way to go. Hiveminds alone would throw that out the window. What about fanatic materialists? Just fuck you, you believe in an alien god now because I sent a missionary to your planet? Nah. If you want to broaden it to be more representative of a culture kind of thing, maybe. But even then, mechanically that's being handled by the ethics system and internal factions in the new update and I don't think Civ's way of doing it should be the blueprint for refining it in the future. While it would be nice to slowly influence smaller/neighboring empires to be more in line with your ethics, maybe have special culture type stations that, I don't know, beam your TV into neighbor empires, I can also see why it's not something they've gone into yet. It just doesn't fit with the type of sci fi setting they've built or themes they're exploring. It's very Star Trek, Heinlein, Niven inspired stuff, as opposed to exploring softer social oriented topics. Simply put, this is a game about starships, future tech and robots, not Coca Cola and jeans.

>>173025681
Most don't have the mechanics to support a sandbox style of play for long and need a victory condition. Stellaris is one of those.

>>173023316
not very much.
its better than stellaris tho

>>173023878
civ style religion isnt very good. i find it very gamey
but stellaris needs a cultural push/pull mechanic. ethics dont do it because its basically a homogenous/heterogenous axis instead of locus based

>>173025729
>While I agree there should be more ways to achieve a victory in Stellaris aside from conquer everyone
There should be LESS ways to achieve victory than conquer everyone.
If I wasn't chasing that shitty victory screen like some sort of retarded crack baby, and the game was just sort of open-ended a'la CK2/EUIV, I think we'd all be a lot happier, and just have a comfy time making our own fun rather than blobbing obsessively.

As >>173025807 notes though Stellaris currently isn't deep enough to support sandboxing. We all complain about watscore shittery, but that's mostly because there is literally nothing to do but amass warscore.

>>173025729
>victory
>in a paradox game
theres no point talking about win conditions. What you want from stellaris is roleplay mechanics, because it is already completely void of strategy.
Other than map painting, which is redundant in a completely random symmetrical generated galaxy, theres none of the aspects of gs games that make stellaris fun.
A culture mechanic is great because it allows you to do rp shit like convert everyone without conquering them

>>173025470
AI not winning is perfectly fine.
The AI not wanting to lose is where emphasis should be

>>173026154
The saddest part is that victory conditions can be easily implemented through your National Modifiers. Like:
Xenophobic? Remove all aliens.
Materialistic? Have more income than everyone else put together.
Spiritualistic? Be more happy than everyone else.
Shit like that.

>>173026380
Sounds cool but the problem is that many of these aren't permanent, So really, what's the point.
Maybe win conditions should end the game for you, but the rest goes on. like ascending out of the universe or building a shielded world. Might be interesting for multiplayer.

>>173024534

Religious could add to Unity and Influence, maybe?

>>173026154
What the game really needs is something to fill the role in the mid-late game that exploration fills in the early game. Once you are in the mid game you are either at war or preparing for war. Culture, religion, some amalgamation, both or something completely different would be nice not just for rp but just as something else to do.

>>173026123
Listen man, it is what it is. I'd like it to grow into something more, and I'm sure it will, but I'm fine with war being the main goal. When I play Hearts of Iron 4, I'm not pissed that I can't peacfully tech up and go to the moon as Venezuela while the world burns around me, or that as Italy I can't just make everyone bow down to my mighty Neo-Roman culture or convert people to catholicism. Same for cities:skylines or anno 2070, I don't get pissed that there is no military side to the game. It's just not the focus. Can it expand and incorporate it? Sure. But just like CK2 has a shitty combat system, I'm not expecting much out of any non-war oriented mechanics for Stellaris.

What I absolutely don't want to see is the implementation of copied mechanics that were shitty in the first game they were tried like the religion thing. Mechanically, ethics give you the same bonus as religion in Civ minus the bullshit. It lets you customize your empire a bit further and helps shape your playstyle or compliment it. I have fun playing Stellaris and trying to spread my people throughout my federation and coopting leadership positions in other empires. I also have fun playing full on fanatic purifiers waging war on the whole galaxy and seeing how long I can last. I also have fun quietly teching up in my home cluster and accidentally kicking off an AI rebellion or venturing forth only when a major threat pops up. I also like engineering massive Galaxy spanning wars where everyone fights everyone.

But I understand wanting more. Hell, I want it too. There's a shit ton of potential in Stellaris, but I'm guessing like EU4 it will only come out over the course of several years and through DLC.

Leftover trait points can be used later when I get access to genetic modification, right?

>>173026969
Yes. But you probably shouldn't, you're hamstringing yourself for awhile.

>>173026783
Stellaris was marketed as grand strategy meets 4x. That is not what it is.

>>173027208
Sad, right?
Especially when the only difference between gs and 4x is a single X.

>>173027290
Even worse is the fact it is a barebones 4x.

>>173027208
It is that. You explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate. You also deal with macro-level empire management in typical Paradox fashion. It is literally 4x and GS mashed together. Is it rough and lacking? Yup. But if you don't try to make it some sort of autistic simulator of life 300 years from now and just have fun blowing up space ships and committing genocide, you'll have fun with stellaris.

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> tfw waiting for Utopia to hit

Meanwhile I tried playing civ VI over the last week, but the AI is unbearable. I'm just not having any fun. Is it bad that I still enjoy civ V a lot more than VI?

>>173027416
10/10 would murder that guy and rape the bitch while whipping her ass until she begs for death.
Or the opposite, I bet that guy is a real cute when you remove the gas mask.

>>173027409
There is nothing grand strategy about it. It's a run of the mill 4x. There is no in depth diplomacy. There is no espionage.

>>173027510
>t. Fat manlet Jew

You'll either be executed or she'll use you to test out her new stapons while keeping your tiny dick caged up so you can't even pleasure yourself as she throat fucks you.

>>173027409
It's a good 4x game, with a good setting, but it's not grand strategy. Do you honestly compare to let's say Vic 2?

>>173027409
Have you heard about Distant Worlds, our Lord and Saviour?

>>173011513
My first setup will either be a military republic with citizen service and aristocratic elite or parliamentary system.
Or an enlightened kingdom with philosopher king and distinguished admiralty.

One being space romans and the other space prussia. I will try to build somewhat wide but be as efficient as possible.

>>173027627
I'm neither fat or a manlet.

>>173027692
>Distant Worlds
Don't play that shitty, awful game.

>>173027581
Aside from CK2, NONE of Paradox's games have that either. So why is Stellaris different? Hell, DW is total shit when it comes to diplo.

>>173027687
>good 4x game
Tastes and opinions on this are vary.

>>173011513
Man, I'm not sure.

Psionics are going to be the strongest endgame, right? Because I'd focus on Spiritualist in that case for the benefit to Unrest.

But there's a civic there that also reduces unrest...

I might just focus on making my slaves more productive.

>>173027764
EU4 has it. You need to take espionage ideas though. The only ones that don't have it are the ones with a very narrow focus like HoI.

>>173027764
stellaris has civ style board game mechanics

>>173027746
>Don't play that shitty, awful game.
>>173027764
>DW is total shit

You have strayed from the path, children! You have been seduced by vile swedish perverts! How dare insult The Lord?

>>173027941
Distant Worlds is trash. You can't even play as a pirate!

You must play Distant Worlds : Universe instead! That game is so good it's like having an angel licking your butthole while massaging your testicles at the same time with her silky, smooth, soft fingers!

>>173028056
>no gravity wells
>shitty ship designer
>plays itself

>>173027901
EU4 is ok when it comes to indepth diplomacy, but far from good. Honestly, games in general don't pull it off.

>>173027941
Only in diplomacy does it fail, it nails everything else though.

>>173028115
>no restrictions on where you can warp
>simplistic ship designer that spares you many headaches
>he doesn't know the automatons can be turned off
Let me guess, you played it for five minutes before deciding it was shit?
Goi, at least reach the resort stations and the pirates before you start crying like a little bitch.

>>173028140
>Only in diplomacy does it fail, it nails everything else though.
Yeah, diplomacy is kinda meh, tho for me videly availible espionage options compensate for it.

It does rise an interesting quiestion tho.

How do you do in depth diplomacy between civilisation that only have use of violence to advance their goals in common?

A hive mind, a popular democracy and ascended technocracy walk into a bar, the fuck do they talk about?

>>173028193
>overly complex ship designer that causes you many headaches for little benefit
>can warp directly to enemy homeworld destroying all sense of strategy or tactics
>muh pirades :-DDD

>>173028332
>moving the goalposts
I accept your surrender.

>>173028278
take a page from economic competitive games like offworld, railroad tycoon, ttd and that sort of thing

have a system where you can gain political capital on other factions and use that to force them to do things

>>173028278
>"you like tentacle porn?"
>"HAK HAK HAK!"

>>173028364
>fallacy fallacy

noice

>>173028404
Like buying parts of your enemy's market to raise their units' costs due to a shortage of iron or minerals?

i hope pirates will be more like a real faction instead of some random mobs that are hanging around one system.
Let them raid planets and destroy stations and build larger fleets if they are succesful.
Also let them expand their territory.

>>173028278
I'd be perfectly happy with hive minds never being able to engage in diplomacy or having very limited options.

What tier are Australia? Their housing bonus and extra adjacency means they're so flexible, which is what I look for in a civ. Bit shit that their culture bomb can't extend beyond 3 tiles of the city centre, though.

>>173028278
That's the point. They don't. Which is why I view religion and cultural stuff as pointless in Stellaris. The empires are just too different to have a meaningful mechanic that implements it without straight ignoring the fact Cyborgs, Xenophobes, and Hiveminds just don't give a shit about your cool alien art or fashion.

At best, they'd talk about exchanging resources or mutual protection pacts against the fanatical purifier on the otherside of the galaxy that has run amok and wiped out it's neighbors and is about to launch an invasion of your side.

>>173028527
That's one idea, would require the civ to allow free trade rather than state trade though.

Could have like engage in free trade, and enemy sector 4 comes to rely on ally sector 7 for SPACE DRUGS or something.
Then you threaten massive tariffs on space drugs, swallowing that loss to your economy to cripple enemy sector 4 and shit
Unless they do X

>>173028650
And you could have currency exchange, where your currency's value is determined by how many ressources you stockpile, which could translate in game as a huge investment (since you're buying something more valuable than gold) in exchange for -5% cost on everything and an advantage in trade.
But that wouldn't work in Stellaris, since everyone uses the same money. But at least they could have different kind of minerals like in Deadlock 2.

>>173028603
Shhh, this is a space nazi thread now.

>>173028646
The same way a fanatical purifier would try to kill all aliens a fanatical spiritualist empire should also try to convert all the non-believers.

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>>173028056
>This Windows 3.0-looking clusterfuck of MS-Paint garbage costs 60 dollars.

Is this real life?

>>173028404
Political capital requires diplomacy or at the very least trade, be it ideas or resources.

Say that technocracy has a prime directive and doesn't want to even talk to you?
What if democracy has a superiority complex and sees any attempt to interfere in their politics as an act of war?
What if the hivemind doesn't see a point to sharing and just wants to consume you ?


>>173028570
And what if it's obsessed with learning more about the universe and wants to trade ideas all the time?


My point isn't so much that you can't find commonalities, it's thats trying to model it with any precision is lunacy, you can build an entire game just about it and it would still probably not do the question justice.

>>173027627
Are you implying I couldn't take that twiggy bitch in a fight?

Nazis get out ree.

>>173028278
>A hive mind, a popular democracy and ascended technocracy walk into a bar, the fuck do they talk about?

Well for a start we could talk about sabotaging the defensive pact between the technocracy and the popular democracy so the hive can power-project on the latter without having to fight a two-fronted war.
Seriously the diplo option I used most in EUIV was the war demand "annul treaties", to force B to stop collaborating with C. It was an invaluable way of cracking power blocs and helped prevent one of Stellaris' main pathologies: the ossification of alliances which means every war against a federation is almost exactly the same as the last one.

Other than that one specific bugbear, I would suggest that diplo could be enhanced by coupling it to a much better strategic resource system. If you really really *needed* those resources to stop your fleets fighting at 50% efficiency, or to stop your industry grinding to a halt in unhappiness revolt, then this would simultaneously make diplomacy relevant AND make territory control of resources relevant.

Is there a file I can edit to unlock the preorder stuff (creatures of the void + extra empire symbols) for Stellaris? Didn't even know the game existed until after it came out.

>>173028775
>And what if it's obsessed with learning more about the universe and wants to trade ideas all the time?
Simple. They are too fucking strange for anyone to like.

>>173016798
I just want the option that if you pick cyborg ascension, you can become synthetic hivemind and have the ability to assimilate other races

>>173028772
>wants to play an autistic game
>is concerned about graphics

Normies get out, reee

>>173028603
They're really, really fucking good and if you use True Start Location you're untouchable for most of the early game. Colonize the edges of Australia and fill the desert interior with Outback Stations.

>>173028772
It's niche. It's pretty decent. Not worth that money though.
Speaking of money, you can absolutely destroy Distant Worlds with the most simple tax manipulation imaginable.

>>173028832
annul treaties is useful yeah

but

>big blob
>want to crush bigger blob neighbour
>they're allied with half the world
>half the world includes some pissant little city state
>declare war on city state
>fighting blob and city state alone
ahhhhhhhhhh suck my fucking dick poland

>>173028938
He just wants an autistic game with AAA graphism. Nobody has the heart of explaining him that a niché game will never have as much money as Call of Warfare : Electric Boogaloo XXVIII.
Just let him dream.

>>173028895
But you aren't thinking about modeling, you are just trying to justify your idea with excuses. How is it any better than simple primitive system of like/disiike ala DW?

>>173028929
Borg?

Stellaris needs deeper trade mechanic.
Like, trade and supply lines.This would also solve doomstack problem,because if supply line for your fleet is cut, it would suffer greatly

>>173029008
A hive mind is fundamentally different from every other species. There would be no way to not seem them as very strange.

>>173028929
Would be neat as well. They should lift the restrictions on ascension for Hiveminds and just change the fluff text.

Borg and geth need to be a thing.

>>173029017
Kinda like borg but not full hostile like regular hivemind but more like a collective mind that can have limited diplomacy with other races and offer them a place in the collective mind.

even if its no diplomacy, they should at least add the change empire to synthetic hivemind option.

it just makes sense

I think building armies should consume pops.

>>173029036
Ehh, let's be real here. If you have FTL fleet that can supply itself you have failed at building FTL fleet.

>>173029081
Yes, but that's the point isn't it? Acutal aliens would in all likelyhood all be fundamentally different, so unless all you want is rubber forhead humans modeling diplomacy is gonna be a pain in the ass, and you can under no circumstances make it generic, without abandoning any pretense to realism (as in realistic/logical, not as in real).

For example the best alien diplomacy system I've seen exists in a game called Last Federation.

It take a number of concessions to achieve it but a result is genuinly interesting, varied diplomatic system that I can see as plausible for an interspecies dialogue.

But that would mean no custom civilisations,ever. Which to me is - good riddance, but many people seem to like it.

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>>173028832
I think the problem with diplomacy is more a to do with the fact that the game is too easy, rather than there being nothing useful to diplo about in general.

Aside from the first 50 or so years, when you might find yourself getting shat on by someone who had a luckier start, the AI is never going to beat you or force you into an unwinnable situation. If you survive to 2250, you have essentially already won.

So what do you need diplo for? All allies do is cost you blurple mana, and gain you not really anything. This is especially true when you can just pull random third parties into your side for wars of aggression at the drop of a hat, an option that so devalues the notion of long-term diplomacy I am amazed they put it in.

Contrast this to EUIV, where a man without alliances is instantly ganked by all his neighbours at once and unceremoniously dismembered. You grub around for allies like a little bitch because if you go it alone, you fucking die.

I don't know how much of this comes from EUIV's asymmetric starts (so someone will always be bigger, or at least comparable, to you) and how much of it comes from Stellaris' bad combat system that the AI cannot into. But either way, THAT'S why diplo is bad. Not because it doesn't have enough options, but because the bread-and-butter of diplomacy - alliances - are largely worthless thanks to the player having so much of an edge edge over the AI.

>>173029036
Agreed. Supply ships for when venturing out beyond your limited supply area, maybe supplies consuming minerals and energy to create at designated supply depots that are a space station module.

Also, trade routes and way more resources that impact fleets, research, happiness, production, etc negatively if you don't secure an adequate supply.

>>173029005
I just don't understand how your GIMP meets excel spreadsheet-game costs as much as Electric Boogaloo XXVIII does.

>>173029240
I think FTL fleet still needs some kind of fuel

>>173029240
I could see a xenophile conducting diplomacy with a peaceful hive mind but not anyone else.

What's the point in "pre-ordering" Utopia from paradox store when it will be on Steam the same time and probably won't even be 2GB?

>>173029415
Just pirate the fucking thing and shush.

>>173029415
Because it's the base game and several expansions. I think it's 2, maybe 3 of them. So you're basically paying for an entire pack rather than just one game.

Doesn't the Steam store explain that? That's it's Distant Worlds + Age of Shadows + whatever else there is?

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>>173029001
In 1.0, when you could DoW Protectorates, I did this all the fucking time.
The best part was that you could use it to easily circumvent the 10 year cooldown. DoW the blob, then when that war ends immediatly DoW their protectorate.

It did not escape my attention in the patch notes that you can DoW protectorates once again in 1.5.

[Rolling aggression intensifies]

>>173029504
You give your shekels to Johan directly.

>>173029415
Ha, found it. You pay for :
- Distant Worlds, the base game.
- Return of the Shakturi, who adds stuff,
- Legends, who adds a story mode and events,
- Shadows, who adds playable pirates.
If I got things right.

Anyone here playing Endless Space 2?

I liked the original, but ES2 has a shit-ton of new features that help it measure up to any 4x game you care to compare it to.

>>173029639
DW:U and Aurora. How does it stack up to those?

>>173028929
>you can become synthetic hivemind and have the ability to assimilate other races

You can do this as Horatio in ES2!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGkgwKaQLpc

Assimilating a species into the Horatio genotype gives your Horatio population some of the beneficial attributes of the assimilated species but increases the amount of food needed to maintain your people.

>>173029428
Yes, but if your FTL fleet doesn't have resupply ships that can mine/gather resources from systems and refine thiem, you have failed at producing a fleet.

We are not talking about patrol fleets defending the empire, we are talking about expeditionary forces? Because interstellar war with a few small ships is lunacy, most you can do is raid trade with that, and then you can just scavenge for resources.


>>173029452
What, you think a bunch of militant pragmatists running a dictatorship give a flying fuck how their allies control their ships? They have a war to fight, hive mind is an enemy of my enemy. Who gives a shit what else it is.

I can produce any number of plausible examples, please don't waste your time trying to convince me, it's just not gonna work.

You have to go to heavily pre defined races with lore set in concrete if you want advanced diplomacy. Otherwise you are kinda better off with something basic, or rubber foreheads.

>>173028056
>You can't even play as a pirate\
yes you can, as one of the game modes, its be a pirate factions

>>173029691
I can't say, I haven't played either of those. My 4X experience is relegated to entire Civ and Endless series and Age of Wonders

>>173029786
I doubt that Stellaris ships are self sustained at default.You still need to get them to spaceport for repair
It could be a researchable technology though

>>173029786
You have a very naive view of how a non-xenophile would react to something so alien. It's cute.

>>173029905
Not in Distant Worlds.

>>173029915
>It could be a researchable technology though
It IS a researchable technology.
In fact it's two: living metal and regenerative hull plating

>>173029924
get the addons you dumbass

Endless Space 2: Riftborn Update (MAR 23)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJl254O6do4

>>173029923
That argument can be used as an argument against all interspecies diplomacy. Because what you are not seeing is that they are all would be too fucking alien.

But honestly, from what little we know of it - sapience adapts to enviroment. First contact will be a shock, second a revelation, after that, buisness as usual.

>>173030051
But then it's not Distant Worlds anymore, it's Distant Worlds : Universe. You could have avoided embarassing yourself if you read the entire chain of posts before commenting but you didn't, and now you look like a complete moron and your parents are disappointed in you.

>>173029761
go away amplitude, i will not pre-order your game

>>173030004
Yeah, but we are talking about supplies
I meant that it's unlikely for military ships to have mining modules by default

>>173028542
Pirates will only be implemented more realistically if they have trade routes to prey upon. They should spawn in empires with trade routes that don't have the means to properly patrol/defend said trade routes. Until there is a decent trade system in which goods actually travel from A to B having pirates in the game will be rediculous.

>>173030130
ES2 early access build is better than 95% of final release sci-fi strategy games.

I just want people to play multiplayer with ;-;

>>173030069
>the minor factions are more interesting than the major ones
>dat shitty design for riftborn

>>173030124
>a completed game on the market for 3 years already
>hurr durr addons dont count
wow, dat autism

>>173030086
An alien would in all probability be viewed as a threat. Even weird creatures on earth met with "ew kill it". Realistically speaking unless aliens look a lot like each other it would take a very long time for any trust to develop between them. Now add to that members of that species do not act as individuals but as a hive mind and they would be even stranger.

>>173030226
Sorry, Stellaris in 2 days, gonna play that for the next 2-3 months

>>173030347
>digging himself deeper
Noice.

>>173029786
Food, dude. Food. And ammo/replacement lenses for lasers/whatever bullshit you want to come up with to justify it. Nuke subs are capable of operating indefinitely but still need food for crew.

>>173030478
> the year of our lord MMCCXV+II
> running kinetics
> "Sorry lads we have to go back to Earth, we need more cannonballs"

>>173030467
no u faget

>>173030625

>2456
>not using glorious torpedoes

Also, kinetics are best weapons. Autocannons for life.

>>173030625
>rev up this forgery boys, I gonna make some quantum torpedoes
Lower supply cost for kinetic could be a thing though
Also autocannons do need ammo.Railguns need spare parts too

>>173030625
Cannonballs in space actually sounds like fun.

>>173030478
>Food, dude
God, of all the fucking silly things to bring up.

Subs need food because they are stuck underwater with minimal light and building an algae farm inside is rather pointless, not because it would be hard.

Anyone who can breach FTL can make food in space in amounts far in excess of their need for kal intake. We can do it on ISS, and you think civilisation with FTL can't?

As above, ammo/fuel/whatever. All you need to resupply this shit is a mining/refinery support ship, or a bunch of deployable mining drones and an armory+refinery on your mothership(s).


All of those things are trivial compared to tech necessary for interstellar war. Namely ship to ship armament and drives quick enough to make such a war practical.

>>173030782
I can no longer tell how many layers of irony we're on, so I'm taking you literally.

I thought torpedoes were in the same "irredemable shit" bag as missiles.
Have I been misinformed? Why are they any better than their last-tier kin?
I know torps were great 1.0 through 1.2, but I was under the impression that in 1.3 they got nerfed so hard it's basically a bug.

>>173029561
I like it when you transition from keeping everyone under 50 AE to not giving a fuck and relying on your big booty force limit to scare normies out of coalitions, along with having a rhythm of keeping your rivals on seperate truce timers so they can't gang you together

>>173030802
Well that's literally, unironically what kinetics is, so... do you feel cool?

>>173030802

It's all about speed, if you had a bunch of guns that could accelerate a grain of rice to 90% speed of light it would be like the largest nuclear bomb detonated on earth hitting the target.

>>173030243
best theme desu fampai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM0JHl_EZJ8

>>173030892
FTL travel is not really a very high tech in Stellaris.
I mean you could have it while not even have thermonuclear weapons researched

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>>173030980
YES.
Hell, I want chained cannonballs too!

>>173031057
BUT CANNONBALLS
Shoot a fucking BALL in the enemy ship's bridge, and behead the enemy admiral with a GIANT FUCKING BALL.

>>173031147
Doomsday weapons in Stellaris when?
Like building a really huge black powder cannon and destroying a planet with it

>>173031125
Renaissance FTL civs and medieval civ ships when?
>tfw ballista and trebuchet got needed for mass arrow-men spam

>>173031125
Pretty sure that's not true, and if it is stellaris is even more of a space fantasy that I thought.

>>173030892
>here's a guy who knows nothing about war, space, or agriculture

Gee, lets just build a fucking hydro farm on our military vessel, it's not like that will be a serious weakness in our combat vessel.

And while they CAN grow plants in space, they CAN NOT grow enough on the ISS to actually feed the crew and make them self sufficient.

Same with manufacturing a torpedo or spare parts in space. While you CAN do it, doing it on a military vessel is retarded and when you're only a few weeks in terms of travel from home, just load that shit on a fucking ship and send it. You'll save money from not having to outfit every fucking military vessel to be a god damn habitat station and you'll make your military designs less vulnerable.

Also,

>implying food is ever a trivial issue for organics, even with FTL

>>173031273
For all the atrocities Banks promises, it's still impossible to kharak a planet.

>>173031275
That's stupid, ridiculous, and silly.
I like it.

>>173031334
Yeah, I remember that bothered me in Planetbase.
>you have small shelves on which you grow tomatoes
>somehow produce enough to feed 6 peoples

>>173031286
Fusion Missiles are tier 2 missile weapon as I remember

>>173031406
But you can bomb the pops to oblivion

>>173031286
Reminder that FTL travel is a lower tech level than rail guns.

Stellaris is pretty much space opera fantasy, but that's ok, if anything it always touted the space opera aspect more than any science fiction aspect.

Realistically we'll be in good shape if we can manage a non single digit percentage of c by 2200 when Stellaris starts.

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>>173030802
yes

>>173031453
But you can't GLASS THE ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET.

>>173031147
I don't think kinetics are supposed to work that way.
As >>173031057 says, the forces and heat generated when you collide 2 solid objects at 90% lightspeed would instantly atomise the projectile into a cloud of superheated plasma. The material of the shot might not even penetrate the hull at the impact, but the explosive force generated by the impact would be like detonating a nuke at point blank range.

Nevertheless, I agree that cannonballing the enemy captain would be pretty rad.

On that topic, incidentally, how does everyone picture their ships being crewed? Do you imagine a Star Trek / WH40K style setup where it's effectively crewing a boat: IN SPACE? Or do you imagine everyone bound up in cocooned in acceleration couches, controlling the ship by neural interface?

>>173031529
Can't you let me dream? I love broadside fire, and I want to believe that my kinetic weapons actually shoot giant magnetic cannonballs that go through the enemy armor like it's fucking paper. WET paper!

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>>173031334
>organic problems with food
Yes, my fellow meatba- errr humans... we should start casting off this WEAK FLESH for strong steel...
I know just the ai to subm- errr... trade with...

>>173030892
>Ay lads, government decided that our military ships need to be self-sufficient. So everybody needs to grow food for himself now

>>173031529
Corvettes and destroyers are like in the expanse. Cruisers and Battleships are advanced enough that we have artificial gravity and shit so it's star trekky.

>>173031334
>it's not like that will be a serious weakness
It can be as armored as any storage area and use artificial light.

You are being silly. And yes they can grow enough to make it self sufficient, it's just impractical. Lifting equipment/maintance required to run it costs more than lifting food. But you don't have an option of lifting food to a fleet hundreds of lightyears away from your worlds, now do you.

>>173031491
>Realistically we'll be in good shape if we can manage a non single digit percentage of c by 2200 when Stellaris starts.
Nah, it's entirely possible to get to double digit percentile of c even now. The problems are:

1) It's still to fucking slow to get anywhere worth going anytime soon.
2) Using nuclear explosions as propulsion is frowned on for some inexplicable reason.

>>173031653
Not ships. Fleet. You are missing my point. I'm not saying making every insystem patrol boat self sufficent is pragmatic. I'm saying that making expeditionary fleet self sufficent is more pragmatic than running FTL supply lines.

>>173030907
Armored torpedoes are when they start becoming decent. The enemy needs a fuckton of point defense to actually take one down before they hit and they do a good amount of damage. Of course, the more you put out, the better they get as the PD get tied up shooting a one for a second just as it's about to hit, then switching to another that's about to hit, never actually destroying one before impact, effectively making any PD useless unless their entire fleet is packing top tier PD and fighters.

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>>173031529
>Star Trek / WH40K style
>crewing a boat: IN SPACE
not even close, boats are cramped as fuck, especially military vessels
the closest ive seen in a tv show is probably new BSG

>>173031738
What if enemy destroys your precious farm you drag around the galaxy with your fleet? It clearly can't be as highly protected/armed as usual military ship
Everybody going to fucking starve now?

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/THICC/
T
H
I
C
C
/

>>173031448
>>173031529
Welp, at least it's not pretending to be scientific then. Honestly if unscientific tech was the biggest problem I have with that game, I'd be a happy camper

>>173031653
Thanks a lot anon, now I'm fantasising about being a crewman on a xenophile Earth ship crewed by humans and plantoids where I lick the hot dryads' "sap" for sustenance and reciprocate by providing them a diet exclusively consisting of "protein rich fluid"

>>173031738
>It's still to fucking slow to get anywhere worth going anytime soon.

I wouldn't say that. While the ultimate goal is interstellar travel like the way we fly around the globe today, the first step has to be ocean liner style travel within the solar system. Just being able to reach Jupiter or Saturn within a week or two to explore their moons would be a game changer.

>>173031106
theres only 3 things i like about ES
>ost
>planets arent tiered, tied to system output
>the crystal race from ES1
everything else is so meh

>>173031738
>capable of sending a fleet across the galaxy in a meaningful time frame to wage war.
>Supplies? Fuck that. They need to grow their own food and carry an entire industrial complex with them

You're beyond retarded. ANY storage space is a weakness in a military design and is deliberately kept to a minimum. And you're severely underestimating how much food is necessary to feed a large crew of a few thousand. And if they're far enough away that they need to think about GROWING FUCKING FOOD INSTEAD OF RESUPPLYING THEM, your reach is exceeding it's grasp and you may need to rethink your war there.

Also,
>you don't have the option of lifting food hundreds of light years away
>in a game where FTL is common place and the average travel time from one star cluster to another is maybe a few months.

>>173031653
>We captured a space amoeba! Meat is back on menu boys!

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>>173031935

>tfw can't argue with people who point out that the speed of light is the hard cap of speed given everything we know about physics and that even if we could overcome the hurdles to both reach it and make it usable for humans, it would still take a long fucking time to get anywhere

>tfw still have a sneaking suspicion that we'll figure out some bullshit hacks to get around it like we've done with everything else

>>173032310
It'll probably be something boring like teleportation through quantum entanglement.
>all those dreams of space travel and exploration? Yeah sorry we skipped the fun bit entirely and figured out the most boring travel method first.

>>173031883
>Everybody going to fucking starve now?
First, redundancy is paramount in any supply scheme. Second, if enemy fleet has time to prioritze your "farm" over your military vessels, you have either already won, and they are trying to strip your ability to move further in, or you have already lost. Third, what do you think is easier to sustain, replacing an occasional lost farm ship or maintaining a patrol with escorts along the enitre hundred year long supply line? And finally, noone forbids you from having emergency supplies.

Is what I'm saying a perfect option? Of course not, those don't exist, is it better than dragging tradeships into hostile territory hoping they will never be intercepted? I sure think so.

>>173031935
Yeah, I should have elaborated on what I meant. Even if you use it for in system travel there is still no viable for profit option to utilise this tech. Even if you convinced governments to get over themselves and let private enterprise use nuke powered ships, youd still have an issue with the fact that running a ship like that would probably end up costing more than it can generate in income. You have to remember that any stellar voyage, even in system one, has any number of issues from radiation, to health issues, to funnily enough, supplies.

I think it would take a space elevator or similarly cheap lift system to make casual insystem travel viable. I.E. I believe the biggest barrier is gravity well preventing easy transfer of goods and people to the void, rather than any speed barrier.

>>173032223
As to the first part - I said my piece, you are free to disagree, I see no point in walking in circles.

As to the second one - Stellaris is a space fantasy, I thought we have established that. As such any arguments abot practicality go out the window, since you can just asspull shit to justify your ideas. I just wish it was enough to produce a game I can enjoy.

>>173032310
http://www.halepassage.org/?p=422

We ask that you try just one more thought experiment. Imagine yourself taking a stroll through Manhattan, somewhere north of 68th street, deep inside Central Park, late at night. It would be nice to meet someone friendly, but you know that the park is dangerous at night. That’s when the monsters come out. There’s always a strong undercurrent of drug dealings, muggings, and occasional homicides.

It is not easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. They dress alike, and the weapons are concealed. The only difference is intent, and you can’t read minds.

Stay in the dark long enough and you may hear an occasional distance shriek or blunder across a body.

How do you survive the night? The last thing you want to do is shout, “I’m here!” The next to last thing you want to do is reply to someone who shouts, “I’m a friend!”

What you would like to do is find a policeman, or get out of the park. But you don’t want to make noise or move towards a light where you might be spotted, and it is difficult to find either a policeman or your way out without making yourself known. Your safest option is to hunker down and wait for daylight, then safely walk out.

There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.

There is no policeman.

There is no way out.”

And the night never ends.

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>>173030375
>Even weird creatures on earth met with "ew kill it".

Bullshit. They're met with "Bring it to Sweden and give it lots of welfare".

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>2 more days

>>173032520
M8, if you have the capacity to extend military power into a distant part of the galaxy you also have the capacity to patrol the supply lines. Taking food ships with you is a fool's errand because they are just not needed.

>>173032707
The whole reason behind this discussion is someone wanting to introduce supply lines so they can be cut to counter death stacks.

My entire argument is:

Anyone with a brain building a death stack would not build it in a way to rely on supply lines because risk of some smartass cutting it and stranding the fleet is too high.

FFS.

>>173032541
“Attacking with relativistic rockets may be a good idea if there are only two technological species, but if there are two then it seems to me that it is likely there will be more. Using a relativistic rocket to destroy a planet will reveal your position AND

indicate that you are hostile to any possible third race that is out there.

To extend the Central Park analogy, the muzzle flash when you fire off your gun reveals your position and identifies that you are hostile to anyone else out there.”

Granted, there aren't many good alternatives either.
We're probably either fucked or we're in a zoo.

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>>173030375
>Now add to that members of that species do not act as individuals but as a hive mind and they would be even stranger.
Like muslims?

>>173032310
There's the Alcuriebe drive or however it's spelled. It's supposed to bend space-time around the ship in a bubble that would allow you to technically travel faster than light because you're not moving THROUGH the universe, you're moving the universe ITSELF around you super fast by compressing space-time direct infront and expanding it behind. Of course, it requires the energy equivalent of the mass of Jupiter to move even a few atoms and it also would apparently release a massive gamma ray burst from the from the front when it finally stops. But it's a potential idea and as science advances, I'm sure they'll refine it.

But it does make me think, there are unexplained directed gamma ray bursts in the universe that scientists haven't been able to explain. Maybe, just maybe, it's from aliens who discovered a way to make it work and that's just a by product of FTL like CO2 is from cars. And they do their best to not aim it at inhabited worlds but you know, space is big and you can't always be accurate...

>>173032541

Rods from God/targeted asteroids from paranoid ayys don't scare me (even though the HFY story about such an event was based as fuck).

If Ayys can efficiently monitor and decipher random-ass sequential signals from a shithole planet in the middle of nowhere that could be very well confused with cyclic stellar activity from a celestial body and confirm it to be intelligent life that could pose a threat, then it implies both that Ayys are relatively common (as a frame of reference and knowing what to look out for would be necessary to ascertain the presence of intelligent life from a patterned signal) and that the ayys receiving the signal aren't extinct, which would be impossible if the first response to the presence of alien intellgient life was immediate extinction contingencies in a universe billions of years old where organic life evolves hilariously quickly.

Either Ayys don't give a shit as it's technologically impractical to do so, or they're Xelee-tier and know we won't ever be able to do jack shit to bother them.

Tbh the way to eliminate death stacks isnt through supply lines, but by reducing travel speed. It has to take a prohibative amount of time to redeploy a fleet to another corner of your empire so you want to split up your death stack to manage the smaller incursions. Travel in stellaris is just too damn fast.

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>>173032541
The Killing Star is a great book and convinced me, a former Star Trek Green Space Babes xenophile, that in fact we must suffer not the alien to live.

>>173032541
meh

>>173032923

That's the great thing about the universe. We simultaneously know quite a bit and fucking nothing at the same time. If there's going to be any kind of efficient FTL ever, gravity-warping is the best way to go. At that point all we need is something to shield the crew and a mechanism that can make Fusion Power 1000000x more efficient. Which while Herculean effort-tier difficult, can probably be done. It's all about finding ways to get fundamental forces to work in synergy without needing planet-sized power generators to make it happen. Will be goat banter if nothing else.

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>>173031275
>Renaissance FTL civs and medieval civ ships when?
You're acting like this didn't happen all the time in earlier versions of Stellaris.

> AY HOL UP
*adjusts mandibles*
> SO YOU IS SAYIN
*squirts ink*
> YOU IS SAYIN
*inflates bivalve*
> HOL UP
*sucks ammonia through radula*
> YOU IS REALLY SAYIN
*deploys gastropod*
> WE WUZ SPACE DRONES N SHEEEEEEET

>>173033028
I’m not going to talk about ideas. I’m going to talk about reality. It will probably not be good for us ever to build and fire up an antimatter engine. According to Powell, given the proper detecting devices, a Valkyrie engine burn could be seen out to a radius of several light-years and may draw us into a game we’d rather not play, a game in which, if we appear to be even the vaguest threat to another civilization and if the resources are available to eliminate us, then it is logical to do so.

The game plan is, in its simplest terms, the relativistic inverse to the golden rule: “Do unto the other fellow as he would do unto you and do it first.”…

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won’t choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don’t survive by being self-sacrificing.
2. WIMPS DON’T BECOME TOP DOGS.No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.
3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

>>173033065

A touch of Hearts of Iron III's fleet mechanics might help quite a bit. Yeah it was bullshit in a WW2 setting, but is a tacticool as fuck model for spess navies

>soft fleet cap that decreases combat efficiency when over it, but can be mitigated through leader rank/skill, doctrines, and tech

>Ship class has an exponentially adverse effect on efficiency (20 destroyers with some cruisers will easily be 100% efficient, but four carriers with 10 destroyers will be pushing it)

>Focuses on the creation of strike groups instead of blobs that can be coordinated and will get bonuses if operating congruently in the same sector

>Range dependent on where their home port is and what their hardware is

>refitting/repair dependent upon securing supply routes to where they're operating

With the ship customization shit in Stellaris, it would be goat.

>Make a fleet of corvettes/destroyers/fast escort carriers to harass the enemy while troops secure planets to create a corridor that your fuckoff-tier main force of battleships, gunboat cruisers, and dedicated carriers can use as a base for the main drive into enemy territory.

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>>173033720

Was looking for those three assumptions, thanks for posting them bb.

I agree with you that it's best to keep our heads down until we know what the playing field is like, but thanks to autists like Segan and just having mass media broadcasts in general, the cat's already out of the bag.

>that feel when you manage to pay off a $100 000 at Offworld Trading Company
FEELS
GOOD

>>173031057
It's actually 3.22*10^15 joules, which is about 3/4 of a megaton of TNT. So not that much but still a lot.

>>173034207

Are there any OWTC happy merchant shoops? That game is a Victoria 2-tier Shekel simulator IN SPACE

>>173034706
Dunno, but I find the game pretty easy once you get teleportation. I just recovered from a 200k debt and expected to lose the game.

>>173033396
Didn't they lower the chances of finding primitive civs in the new Banks-patch?
I don't even find them to be that common at all. Maybe I've just had bad luck in finding them?

>>173033396
>Early Space Age civs won't launch slow ships to scout their solar system

>>173035215
In 1.0-1.2 primitives were fairly rare.
In 1.3-1.4 they were much more common.
The patch notes say in 1.5 they'll be rarer again.

>>173034623

Yeah I meant 99 not 90%, once you get to those sort of speeds the damage potential is unreal. That's one of the main problems with a spaceship travelling to those sort of speeds, all they have to do is hit a pebble and the ship will be destroyed.

>>173035215
Have you played much of 1.4? I'm constantly tripping over them. I've got 4 in a 12 system empire. There's like another 3 that I know of in neighboring empires and I haven't even explored most of their territory. It's irritating finding them because they're at best turning a habitable world into nothing but a society research station, or at worst a diplomatic hit from annexing them, or they achieve space flight and take a chunk out of your territory and proceed to get guaranteed by anyone who hates you. Which means getting back whatever they stole requires a lengthy drawn out war fighting some other asshole before you finally roll in, blow their measly space station, and occupy their planet.

The economic and currency system needs a complete overhaul honestly. Make rare resources actually worth fighting over and shit.

>>173038251
Basically all resources should be more concentrated so you have systems that are more valuable and need to be defended.

What is the secret to expanding in Stellaris without being a space Nazi and without getting a bunch of rebel factions?

>>173038251
The whole "Colonize, Clear, Build, Upgrade" thing is one of the most boring forms of economic development that I've ever encountered in a 4X or RTS game. At least sector AI will build mining/research stations in space and save you the trouble. Being forced to click on things isn't gameplay.

>>173039525
Nobody gets pissed off at you for genociding a race if they don't know you existed when you do it.
So you're free to absolutely exterminate your neighbours early on, for the most part.
Just keeping troops on the planet and generally uprisings don't get too crazy.

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>>173033720
>I am not going to talk about ideas I am going to talk about reality
>[hfy 12 year old's fanfiction]

every time

>>173039703
I said without being a space nazi

>>173039768
People need to read Wittgenstein in elementary school.

>>173039816
But Stellaris is about being space nazi.

>>173039816
o-oh right
whoops
just gotta boom through peaceful means to the point that you can properly deal with dissent is all

>>173039768
>>173039901
People need to read in general.
It's like the exact opposite of HFY, even at the galactic civilisation scale we're basically just scared babies with relativity revolvers pointed at each other by necessity.

>>173040028
Is there no way to make dissent go away. Its just there forever?

>>173040076
no it's the exact same edgy shit based entirely in feverish fantasy

here's the actual reality:
1. the aliens are already here
2. the science is not perfect, it is in fact wrong
3. we already have the means to travel the stars, and it is not chemical rocketry

>>173040113
I dunno, desu, I usually just suppress factions until they disappear or I change the policy that they're protesting.

>>173039901
phylosophy isnt science kiddo, now go back under your blankit with your tin foil hat.

>>173040113
independence movements based on oh fuck we were just conquered goes away

shit from them being unhappy in general don't if you don't address it (different ethics and laws and shit)

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>>173040221

The fact is that the sky is an artificial projection. We have gone to space. The images are not fake. Our governments are not aware of the Ringworld. However, it is the true structure of our world.

If we dig deep enough into the ground, we'll encounter the artificial vacuum of space, not a molten core, not China.

A species of ape was deposited here millions of years ago; over time, offshoots developed intelligence, agriculture, metallurgy, militaries, economies. This was expected by the aliens who put us here, who are still in contact with various groups on the ground, having gone into hiding on artificial constructs across the galaxy, like our Ringworld but in many cases larger (i.e. Dyson spheres, O'Neill cylinders, etc. to survive a holocaust being perpetrated by another faction of beings from beyond our habitat (we ourselves, being aliens, are also simply a faction of beings).

The next X-Files season will feature a variation on Flat Earth theory to a) debunk dissident theories of terrestrial geography and b) draw attention away from Ringworld theory

>>173040113
As a xenophobe (Commonwealth of Man) assimilated xenos are unhappy so I've taken to building Symbol of Purity and Art Monuments from alien artist enclaves on their planets. So long as happiness on the planet is 45% or better there's no problem with dissent.

I've gone so far as to allow Xenos to vote to keep them happy enough to not rebel, which makes my pure humans slightly unhappy but that's easily ballanced out by having a Symbol of Purity on every planet.

>>173040631
So you're basically Donald Trump?

>>173040405
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUIcCyPOA30

>>173040714
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOk6HB609po

>>173040678
Won't be able to deport migrants and build space walls until thursday so not yet.

>>173040405
Holy fucking shit , you are one retarded nigga.

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>>173040405
Hey...this sounds just like Stellaris...

>>173040789
>deport

>not having zero food infrastructure after the early game and declaring war on others to capture their colonies to capture their population to use the convert to food purge option

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Just won a War in Heaven as leader of the independents. I was incredibly hyped when it first broke out but then I realised all I had to do to win was blitz a bunch of the shitty vassal states of the awakened FE's to rack up enough war-score to force a surrender (which literally just made the FE's empire instantly explode). Despite the fact that one of the awakened FEs bordered my empire I never thought directly with either of them once. I suppose I should be happy as both FEs had 1 million value fleets but it was still very disappointing.

What the fuck was paradox thinking with how Warscore is setup.

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>>173031453
>But you can bomb the pops to oblivion
Good, but could be better.

>>173031453
>Fanatic Purifiers +33% Fire Rate, +33% Army Damage, allows Armageddon bombardment stance, cannot use diplomacy, gains unity from purging xenos, automatically purges xenos in borders Fanatic Xenophobe, Militarist, no Syncretic Evolution
Not having access to any kind of diplomacy seems boring.

>>173041264
So is the diplomacy system in Stellaris, though, so it's a fair trade.

>>173041264
fucking stupid considering wars are still diplomatic things

>sir that nation which has refused any and all contact with us and every other race we know of is attacking us!
>fuck they wiped out our fleet
>fuck they bombed ten of our planets to lifeless wastelands
>their armies occupy ten more
>sir we're getting a transmission, the fanatic purifiers are asking if they can keep two out of the ten planets, they'll immediately hand the other eight back over

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>>173041337
I actually rely heavily on diplomacy, at least trading minerals for energy.

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And every once in a while one of my trading partners sends me this. Still a xenophobe but aliens seem to rely on me as a trade house for minerals/energy.

>>173041637
It's still boring. Besides, merchant enclaves exist.

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>>173041790
Merchant Enclaves trade at a 2:1 ratio, I can get 1:1 ratio by trading with alien empires.

>>173042036
they also run out of shit, and it's not like you need even double the amount of minerals you would be paying.
UNTIL THE PATCH THAT IS???

>>173042036
The point was about whether or not the diplomacy system is boring enough that losing access to it can result in a game that is not less interesting, not whether or not AI offers better deals than the merchants.

>>173041264
I thought you could also use armageddon bombardment stance if you unlock one civic?

>>173041232
>>173042517
>>173042572
>>173042709
>>173042865
>someone wasted time actually writing that shit

>>173043018
t. someone from Paradox

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>>173043215
>>173043293
>mfw this isn't much worse than actual Paradox posts

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>>173023349
>no tithe
get that shit OUT of my house

>>173043018
Time to do your duty, soldier.

>>173043215
>>173043293
>>173043125
>>173042865
>>173042709
>>173042572
>>173042517
>>173041232
You guys realize thus breaks one of the global rules right? I can appreciate meta narrative baiting but please don't get yourselves banned.

>>173043375

I bet the Blorg are the End Boss of Utopia, super powerful because everyone loves them even though they're repugnant.

>>173043438
Which rule?

>Blorgposting
Is this how the 4x general dies?

>>173038251
the whole game needs to be overhauled

>>173043572

I WAVE MY FRONDS BACK N' FORTH! I WAVE MY FRONDS BACK N' FORTH! ALL MY BLORG BUDDIES IN DA HOUSE TAKING DAT CHEMICAL BLISS!

>>173043528
3. " indecipherable text (example: "lol u tk him 2da bar|?"), "

>>173043412
Well i cant actually shoot him, can i ?

>>173043723
There's nothing indecipherable about my posts. I'm satirizing the developers of Stellaris.

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What's your favorite thing about the Blorg, guys?

Is it their hideous appearance hiding a beating heart? Their militaristic attitude unusually paired with fanatic xenophilia? Was it the Saga of Mercedes Romero?

I just love how much the Developers of Stellaris love the Blorg, they're EPIC! Epic for the win!

>>173043787
Which ones were yours cause only about two were acceptable.

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>>173043883
The mods alone know.

>>173043867
>>173043691
>>173043293
>>173043215
>>173043125
>>173042865
>>173042709
>>173042572
>>173041232
>>173042517
You are so unfunny its fucking painful...

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>my work position is done just as utopia releases
>there's people in this thread that have to go to work when stellaris updates

>>173043987

You got a problem with the Blorg, boy?

>>173043867
Blorg are alright, and if people like them then more power to them.

>>173011916
>>173014439
>esoteric DLC feature that, because of DLC model, they now can't revisit in any future patch
It's going to become the Republic of Stellaris.

>>173043438
S-sorry senpai! I just came back from a 3 day b& for not mentioning a computer game in a comment. I've learned from my mistakes, oh how I've learned.
So g-guys how about that Stellaris? Cool game, r-r-right?

>>173043752
You can report him for quality of posts.

>>173011513
>Inward Perfection
First game for sure.
>Agrarian Idyll
I like the idea of it, not sure how strong it is mechanically.
>Efficient Bureaucracy
So generic, but worth taking anyway I guess.
>Imperial Cult
I like the idea but the effect isn't that good unless things have changed. Might take it anyway. I like the idea, conceptually, of combining it with Philosopher King.
>Exalted Priesthood
Attractive mechanically, but who wants an Oligarchy?
>Nationalistic Zeal
Border range is always good.
>Ascetic
How does it make sense for a hive mind to have this? Shouldn't it require Spiritualist?

>>173022336
Actual religions. Ones that spiritualist pops follow and make factions for. Factions that can cross national boundaries and induce spiritualist empires to act on their behalf. So something like a mix between the religions in Vicky2 and the holy orders in CK2.

>>173023349
Bonuses seem like a bad idea though.

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>>173044015
>mfw working 12:30 AM to 8 AM the morning of the 6th and going out that night so I won't be able to seriously get into the meat of the game until at least the 7th

>>173044015
>I have a shit-ton of work to do this week and shouldn't even be in this thread right now
>it'll be done, for better or worse, tomorrow evening

>>173024074
I vastly prefer Sophons to "generic evil human space empire #3476", at least. I understand there needs to be at least one human faction for normies to relate to, and the Horatio don't really cut it, but I wish we got something at least a bit more interesting than the UE.

Also, has anyone noticed how the minor faction concepts tend to be a lot more interesting than the majors? Eyder, Deuyivans, and especially Bhagaba (a planet full of corals happened to naturally form computer circuitry, couple of million years later you get biological coral "robots") If they in particular ever got upgrade to major faction status I'd be ecstatic.

What's the most fun difficulty, especially on online speed? Could I get a few tasty wonders on deity still?

>>173025729
While I agree that religion shouldn't be a victory type, i do think it should be implemented as some sort of tag. Religion can be used to spread unity at home, and to influence the ethics or other cultures abroad.
Also, you caqn shit talk the coca cola annd jeans all you want, but there's a precedent for cultural victory in sci fi ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWIVEuK5ATw

>>173044740
Efficient bureacracy is a bullshit perk, the motherfuckers are already taking core systems down from 5 to 3
Also , building a ringworld costs 20k minerals, holy shit

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>My master race is now a minority compared to all the fucking slave shits

So when does my empire crumble and fracture?

>>173045871
That's the same as 10-15 well-armed battleships. Not that much, really.

>>173045690
probably a notch or two above prince, AI gets enough buffs to not be completely dull but not enough that it's obviously cheating

>>173045871
how much for a dyson sphere
I'm practically always overflowing with minerals if I'm not at war because I can't supply that many battleships/crusiers

>>173045937
>being a filthy slaver
>allowing slaves to procreate

You are the only one to blame nigga.
Reap what you sow.

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>The science tree perks

Holy fuck these are OP as hell

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>>173046142
If I don't enslave them, they just riot all day long. Its the only way I can expand anon

>>173045965
I'll go for the one above king tonight then. Kongo, Russia or China I think, probably Kongo.
The game is very fun up until about when you get to spies.

>>173046312
Purge nigga.
Purge.

>>173046312
Are you the guy who killed the merchants in the last thread? How's your energy production going?

>>173046171
It is to counter the fact that government ethics outside of fanatic purifier are all insignificant shit

>>173046389
No point in purging if I cant put my race on those worlds. Then I'm just fighting wars for space I cant even use

>>173046439
Then stop fighting those wars ?
You just admitted - you are conquering shit that you cant inhabit and have to use slaves and deal with slave uprisings OR being outnumber by slave filth..

>>173041086
>The Garden
Isn't that LEX shit? Are you telling me the AI can actually progress through the Arcadia chain?

>>173046407
Things could be going better. I'd be able to counter this if I had full control of my empire instead of relying on the shitty sector system

>>173046545
I have to expand to win the game anon. not claiming territory is effectively losing territory

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>>173045871
>20k minerals
>a lot
Maybe it's because I'm used to ISB but fuck, that's stupidly cheap. I can get several titans for that price and those things can eat up smaller ships

>>173046647
>win the game
No such thing.

>>173036639
Speed is important, but at those kinds of velocities the mass makes energies scale up immensely. A baseball at .9 is a massive fusion bomb.

>>173046120
I didn't see, but you can only build either of those in an unihabited system, which is lame because I was hoping to use a dyson sphere to freeze out some primitives

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>>173046841
It says in the menu to own half the planets in the cosmos or to kill all empires. Also there is really nothing else to do in this game but war from what I've seen. Peaceful is just waiting around for shit to happen so your miniscule fleet can get BTFO
>>173046407
Pic related

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>>173045534
When it comes to having one mandatory normie human faction I'm just glad they decided to bring back UE instead of Vaulters. The latter in my opinion were the least interesting faction of EL along with the furfag woodfuckers, and Sophons already cover the science aspect.

And yeah, the Bhagaba are easily the most interesting race in the game despite getting a minor role. I'm just hoping the wood people receive some interesting lore instead of being nu-Drakken.

>>173047154
I warned you about working power plants with slaves, dawg!

>>173045534
>>173047169
Good time as any for me to say that I'm STILL mad about Hissho being turned into a minor faction

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>>173046592
No, I colonized the planet from across the galaxy because I thought it would be fun. I had no idea about the quest line.

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>>173047276
What do you expect me to do, just free all my slaves? NONSENSE. The answer here is more wars. And more slavery. Things will balance out

>>173047339
It was pretty obvious that something really bad was going to come out of that system. On the bright side it happening across the galaxy means that you don't get those fuckers running around your important territory.

You should totally break the seals at Vanth

>>173047497
>16k mineral cap
Jesus, you're not even using slaves as effectively as possible in the area where it's most important

>>173047616
Take it up with the sectors. My fleet is maxed out and all I use those minerals for is to stabilize my energy deficit when I can. I have no need for them to be more effecient than they already are

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>>173047514
>On the bright side it happening across the galaxy means that you don't get those fuckers running around your important territory.

It ate up several factions that I hated including one I was at war with, I found it very humorous.

>You should totally break the seals at Vanth

The what at where? Im too shit to take on the guardians that spawned at the moment, although with my 5 new habitats dedicated to energy and minerals I might be able to build a fleet strong enough to crack The Garden.

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>>173047840
Vanth is a system added by LEX that has several seals around fuckin' nothing in it. Destroying them will give you a nice fat energy boost.

You can trust me, I posted a fairy. You trust fairies don't you?

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>>173047990
Thats not a fairy its an anime girl