/rlg/ - Roguelike General

1st for angry ogres and trolls and ruks

/rlg/ discord channel where

>>148775593
Never ever.

>>148775593
A literal circle jerk like /trash/'s except roguelike themed?

>>148775593

someone kill this man

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>>148775593

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Is this possibly the most anti-fun mechanic to exist?

>>148777002
are you playing that race that mimics other races and then can only learn a permanent form if he absorbs the corpse of said creature

that sounds fun against the serpent

>>148777496
>watch native chinese movies to write unique dialogue for blork and azrael
what

what

what?

>>148777736

Context: it's a reply to the question about Wiglaf being removed in DCSS.

>>148777496
hangedman's rants are absolutely fucking unreadable.
Top fucking autist.

>>148777940
but
what do native chinese movies have to do with those uniques
urug doesn't even talk
what the fuck!

>>148777246
Nah I'm just playing a normal mimic. You're thinking of possessor and they can permanently take over a form if the monster they kill drops a corpse and they possess it. Mimics can only mimic live monsters and they have a really low chance of remembering a mimicked form permanently. Not sure what the actual value is and I don't feel like digging around the .c file for it but I'm convinced it's something like a 1% chance.

>>148774854
>you see here: 7.5kw generator
Where do you find these in DDA?

>>148778087
That comment is referring to Bai Suzhen.

>>148778087

Fuck if I know, I was just giving the overall context.

>>148777496
simple question

i get that he doesn't add much to the game
but why remove him

>>148778191
ah, the dragon lady.
isn't she a touhou or something

>>148778270

I guess this is supposed to explain it:

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a3cd88f795e7

>>148778397
>they're 'plain'

what an awful excuse

I want a crawl fork with ALL the fucking removed monsters
bring them all back I say
and make more monsters spawn on every floor
make that fucking XP FLOW

>>148777496
>removing hippogriffs
wow um can you like, not?

Hill giants have a unique role so I don't know what the fuck they were mentioned for.

Is Caves of Qud a good startpoint for a newbie?

>>148778270
If something doesn't add anything to the game, removing it is a reasonable thing to do.

You don't have to write a 400 word essay in multiple places on why you did it though.

The problem with DCSS devs is that they *know* that some of their changes will make people bitch and whine. Then, instead of being sensible and ignoring reddit's tears, they involve themselves with it- as above.

>>148778391
Like tzitzimeh are based on an obscure mythological creature from Aztec lore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzitzimitl
Bai Suzhen is an obscure mythological creature from chinese lore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Snake

I think I got the references right, forgive me if I'm not as much of an autist as regret-index.

>>148778704
>tfw never enough xp to get 27 in a weapon skill before Lair even after clearing D
And that's JUST a weapon skill. Not even including Armor, Shield, Dodge, Evo/Invo, Spellcasting and possibly Stealth or Trasmut

>>148779086

Try Tales of Maj'Eyal. That should get you started and then work your way up to the harder RLs.

Caves of Qud could work for a newbie but it depends on how much of a newbie you are when it comes to roguelikes.

>>148779154
That's so much XP. Even on a HO with axes or a Halfling with slings.

Why would that ever be reasonable?

>>148779154
>dumping all your exp in one skill
hello diminishing returns

>>148778818
To this day I cannot remember if Hippogrifs or Griffons are the more dangerous ones.
I think it's Griffons? No clue, honestly.

Hill Giants should be renamed to GREATER OGRES.

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>>148778090
Well I dug through the mimic code anyway and it turns out it's a 1 out of 20 chance to get a permanent form.

>>148780481
lmao

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>>148773310
>not learning all of the 2hus from bkub
baka senpai desu

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playing felids makes me want to fault myself IRL

There is in fact an arrelgian IRC channel but it is only for people named Chris so I can't share it

>>148779091
>The problem with DCSS devs is that they *know* that some of their changes will make people bitch and whine. Then, instead of being sensible and ignoring reddit's tears, they involve themselves with it- as above.
Yeah, god forbid the devs listen to the opinions of the people who play their game. What kind of idiot would do that?

>>148779678
Griffons are more dangerous.

Hill Giants exist to punish bad players who think "I have some armor and evade. I'll be fine getting close to it" on D:10

Like me

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>148744624
>I was curious and there is actually a /rlg/ steam group
pffahaha

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>>148782048

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>>148782048

>>148782048
That's disgusting

>>148781594
One or the other is fine.
But you don't do something you know will cause an uproar and then descend into the squabble yourself with a retarded essay like that.

>>148782548
Fair enough.

>>148781648
I would be okay with saying goodbye to both.
Hippogriffs do literally nothing. It's okay to have chaff monsters, but even an orc can threaten with a branded weapon in early D. I have never considered a Hippogriff a threat.

Cut Hill Giants, replace with more Cyclopses.
Cyclopses are more dangerous and it also means more ruks in the dungeon!

>>148782048
both of the members are me

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>>148782861

>>148782849
>Cyclopses are more dangerous
Not really. Cyclops in DCSS have slowmove.

Replacing hill giants with more rukthrowers does sound fun, though.

>>148782048
>>148783135
I wouldn't mind joining, but I'm wary to share any of my information with you guys beyond my online dcss stuff.

>there's actually a youtube channel of someone LPing DCSS
>he's been doing it for years and doesn't seem to have an ascension video on his channel
>watch one of his latest videos
>"I'll start doing shorter sessions regularly instead of long one, that should help. I know how to win this game goddamit"
>faults two minutes later
roguelikes are cruel

>>148783208
>Cyclops in DCSS have slowmove
doesn't really help when you cross their path at an intersection

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A
FUCKING
MOLD

>>148778397
I agree that Wiglaf isn't threatening, but I disagree with Donald's removal from Labyrinth.
Personally, I never see him there.

I think they should give Donald different skillsets, Might and Haste aren't really threatening for unique that can appear anywhere.

I'm more scared at unique with Banishment than Donald.

>>148783208
Even with slowmove, they are still far more dangerous than "bigger ogre by the time you are guaranteed to have an Ogre Debilitization Device", simply by virtue of monster ranged attacks being really strong.

>>148782849
There is a point at which variety for the sake of variety is not a good thing(DDA comes to mind), but DCSS is nowhere near that point. Having some "pointless" fluff adds breadth to the game.

DCSS has body dysmorphic disorder with a side of bulimia. It does not need to lose more weight.

>>148783895
Nah it's just fine in terms of content, it just needs to be shorter

>>148783483
>mimicking a mold instead of the hound spammer
How are they later on? I tried one out and so far I've only learned nibelung form, which was actually nice except I'm too high level for it now.

Donald does not need to be threatening. He is amusing, and that's what made him a valuable unique.

>>148784003
>it just needs to be shorter
I feel like this is an opinion primarily held by people who have played the game too much and just want to get the game over with faster because they play out of habit more than anything.

When I first started, I loved how big the game seemed. I was excited every time I entered a new branch, and they felt like distinct sub-areas as opposed to pit stops on the way to the orb.

>>148781498
kitty

>>148783312
>not spectating him and handholding him to a win

>>148784478
I don't mind the branches, it's just the start is so slow and pretty much always the same

>>148783895
Nah, I'd rather every piece on the board had a thought-out purpose.
You can create monsters with both interesting properties and interesting flavour. The Griffon/Hippogriff distinction doesn't really manage that though.

>>148784003
Strongly agree with this, but I think a shorter crawl would do better as a fork where you could really go all out and tighten up the game.

I think a crawl with more variety in the areas you can visit (more portal branches/alternate lair branches, alternate elf/crypt branches), but shorter branch lengths could be a lot of fun.

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>>148784195
They're actually pretty strong and fun but avoid mimicking monsters without innate attacks (like ultra-elite paladins and stuff) until you find a really good weapon. Try and get a basilisk early game because they have innate +10 speed and a suspension gaze attack that is infinitely suspend your enemies, there's one in arena but sadly the memory for that didn't stick so if the same thing happens to you I'd say grind up until the later 30s and go to arena to get Dracolisk which is pretty much just a stronger Basilisk but be careful because whenever you get monsters with bite/claw/crush/whatever attacks you'll start out with -20 unskilled. I didn't mimic the Zephyr Lord because when mimicking a monster you do get their abilities but sometimes you might too low level to use them and I have no idea what level hound summon is so I didn't want to waste 4 turns and I couldn't teleport away because I was fearlocked because death molds apparently have really low charisma modifiers.

>>148782849
If you remove all popcorn monsters you are left with a very stressful, very short game where the only times you actually play is to make high-stakes tactical decision, which is very mentally taxing and tiresome and ultimately not fun over long periods of time. This only leads to people actively avoiding said tactical decisions and simplifying gameplay to a RNG showdown.

This can already be seen on, say, Orc:2 where you can either attempt to kill the hordes of orc sorcerers, high priests and knights coming to you from all directions with next to no cover in the whole level, or just go there with a trusty wand of disintegration to make a killhole and ctrl-direction away until.everything is gone

>>148785310
>If you remove all popcorn monsters
Quoting myself:
>It's okay to have chaff monsters.

The cool thing about having levels is that you can re-purpose low level dudes to be weak dudes in higher level fights.

Then those lower levels dudes are interesting and relevant in multiple ways and that's awesome. Hippogriffs, giant newts, and giant cockroaches are not awesome.

>>148785310
Your orc:2 example is bad because there are plenty of corners to take out the orcs 1 at a time.

Agree with the post though! It's not good game design to have every monster be a special snowflake.

>>148786040
They're not chaff if they're a serious threat.

>>148786609
They're a threat early on, and they become chaff later.

>>148786780
The same could be said of virtually every monster.

>>148786871
Not Hippogrifs, giant newts, giant cockroaches, and ball pythons.
They are always weaklings.

>>148778704
Feel free to maintain a bloat branch.

>>148787081
I've died to a ball python before.

>>148787081
And giant rats, bats and grey oozes. Removal is strength.

>>148787259
Yeah, ball pythons are probably workable.
It's fun to have quokkas for example, because being killed by one is the pinnacle of an embarrassing rip.

>>148786040
That is focusing a bit too much on the endgame for a genre where most players only see the early-to-mid game. Giant newts and giant cockroaches serve the purpose of being handy xp bags for level 1/2/3 characters who are too weak to safely take on much else. D:1 and D:2 are generally just loot and xp-reaping levels. This is a common feature on rpg-inspired games, and one that people accept as necessary to get to the meat of the game (this also shouldn't take over 15 minutes or so unless you're doing some gimped combo or conduct). Occasionally they're also useful to keep stronger enemies away (keeping a newt as a buffer between you and the GSC ogre for instance)

Crawl also has plenty of dangerous monsters on early game, it's not that bad. Adders, gnolls, ogres, orc wizards and priests, shadow imps, occasionally even hounds can all fuck you up if you aren't carefu. Once you LEARN to be careful they are boring (except gnolls, D:2 gnolls with polearms and throwing nets are universally bullshit), but a learning curve where you are expected to die at least a few times before getting it right is common on roguelikes.

>>148784478
Not him, but I've only ascended 4 times and I still think the game is way too long. I like how there are all these different branches, but there's over 50 large levels to go through to win a game, even if you minimize the number.

>>148787406
Also, for the first three or so levels there's such a thing as biting more popcorn than you can chew. If you're fresh from killing an adder and at 1/3 of your puny level 2 elf HP bar, seeing a jackal pack approach can be horrifying. Or a quokka.

>>148786780
A monster that poses no threat is a monster that poses no threat, regardless of what it may have done ten floors earlier. Replacing all hippogriffs with orcs is just cutting down variety with no net gain other than removal for the sake of removal.

I don't want to fight the same enemies over and over the whole game.

Is a Blowgun of EV a good statstick?

>>148788020
Yes if you're in a phase of the game in which centaurs can wreck you.

Since DCSS provides the player with most of the monster's information in the x-v screen, I don't see the problem with having more quantity. Even if the number of monsters and uniques was quadrupled, with major overlap between them, that wouldn't be bad in any obvious way.

>>148784478
>people who have played the game too much and just want to get the game over with faster because they play out of habit more than anything.
I have played the game too much and you're damn right I don't enjoy it anymore.
But I don't play it out of habit.

I play it because goddamit shit fuck I won't die without having done a 15 runes ziggurat-clear ascension with an octopode necromancer

>>148788312
It would be harder for new players to get into the game since they would have to check monster stats more often than they do now.

Quadrupling seems like too much monsters to remember even for veterans, but doubling would be fine in my opinion.

>>148777496
I can't read this shit, what the fuck is it about?

>>148788743
Why can't you read it?

>>148788743
He's arguing that DCSS has become "quality over quantity", due to activism on the part of a small number of devs, often to the detriment of the game as OK content like salamander firebrands gets culled just to so that the devs can stay busy.

>>148788743
Read the responses to the post.

For me, the most fun parts of roguelikes are when I get in over my head and have to suddenly shift from comfy otabbing to unfucking myself in a tactical panic.

If you remove all of the "bloat" and relaxed parts, then the pacing becomes a flat line. It's just tedium from start to finish.

>>148789353
>then the pacing becomes a flat line. It's just tedium from start to finish
Either that or every single fight is a struggle just to survive.

>sprite artist molests my little sister
>want to ruin this fucker
>turns out he draws sprites for some freetard game from the 80s
>infiltrate his weird little development cult as an idea guy
>come up with ideas for characters to add to the game
>he has to draw sprites for these people
>some of them have special clothing, which he also has to draw
>then I use my alt to argue why that new content should be removed
>all of his effort goes to waste

It all makes sense now.

>>148789792
As I said, a flat line.

>>148789075
How has it become quality over quantity if quality content is cut?

>>148789889
at last I truly see

>>148789994
I agree, their ideology seems to be anti-quantity rather than anything useful. However, again, whoever feels passionate about this needs to show them the light by maintaining a branch that preserves the good content, rather than merely complaining on a board that nobody cares about.

>>148789994
Why don't you ask the guy who made the post originally.

So to powergame the energy system with ogres and similar you do some low-aut action until they attack you once, then move away while they recover? And you keep it up by moving while they attack? I don't fully understand it yet

I have 3 pips of rN and have completed Lair, Dungeon and Orc. Should I go for Depths, Pandemonia or Elf next? I found Snake, Swamp and Slime but fuck those for now

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Quality travel pathing

>>148790641
Snake or Swamp. You will die if you go anywhere else.

>>148790541
>then move away while they recover
And you're done, because you're not adjacent to the ogre anymore.

>>148790541
The first thing you said is right. I don't know what you mean by the second sentence.

Basically the only time you NEED to game the energy system is against ogres, and then only when you want to escape from them by going up stairs. So, run away from him, going towards the stairs, then stop when you're pretty close. Then do something low-aut like unwielding your weapon, which gives the ogre a free hit against you. However, now he will not follow immediately when you move away. This way, he will not be adjacent to you when you use the stairs, and thus he won't follow you up the stairs.

>>148790541
Monsters which wield weapons take randomly between 10 auts and the weapon's base delay in auts to attack.
You take actions such as swapping weapons (0.5 auts) so that when they attack you, they are more likely to be out of energy on a half turn. Then you step away and can get to the stair safely, stranding them on the level.

>>148790641
Doing Dis(in Hell) is probably optimal at this point.

>>148790872
>>148790908
Ah, thanks for clearing it up

>>148790641
Sorry dude, it's a more linear game than the branching system lets on. You could have 3 pips in everything and Elf is still suicide if you haven't plundered snake and swamp for their xp.

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>>148791009

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I just know I'm going to fault using these.

>>148791217
>pillar dancing
The game spawns OOD monsters after ~1000 turns. Going up the stairs is almost always a better move if you don't want to be DPed.

>>148790756
>>148791132
He was clearly joking, anons.

>>148790641
Swamp->Snake->Vaults->Depths
The differences in difficulty in branches is far, far larger than you think if you fell like you can take on Pan or Elf before even doing the vaults.

>>148791414
Did they remove that green portal spell that ants like? I always thought it was good in a -Tele situation.

>>148791672
What was the joke?

>>148791651
OoD only matters really early on. Lair+ are great areas for consecrating pillars because you're strong enough to take on whatever.

>>148791832
I know it works with stasis, but no idea about -tele.

>>148791414

>rC++
not really useful unless you're in Ice Cave

>Regen+
nice, one pip isn't really useful though

>Int+3
meh

>rElec
Do you fight against electric eel now ?

>-Tele
Yeah, this one will definitely kill you in early dungeon.

Feel free to equip that glove until you identify scroll of teleport.

>>148792109
It does. Passage of Golubria was not removed. It will probably get nerfed in some form or another though. It's way too good currently.

>>148792340
One pip of Regen more than doubles an early character's rate of regeneration.
That said I wouldn't use those gloves either.

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>got banned from #rlg for making a rape joke

Oh god I was copying another person's character with the info in his dump and apparently the secret to get good well-balanced defenses on early D with a scale mail and 18 strength or more is to get precisely 3 armor and dodging. Almost the same EV as a meme mail with no training, and more AC. That was my least favorite about early fighters

>>148793026
But rape isn't funny, senpai.

>>148793026
>#rlg
This meme needs to die.

>>148793026
kate asked you to stop nicely, and you didn't, so you were banned

>>148793138
we're on undernet

>>148793127
Yeah, it's erotic.

>>148793026
What was the joke?

>>148793264
>we made an unreasonable demand nicely so its okay
kate sounds like a cunt.

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>>148793026
>using a chat channel when we have a thread
You people are the fucking worst.

>>148784478
>I feel like this is an opinion primarily held by people who have played the game too much
I looked up some things with !lg, because your point seemed like an interesting lens through which to look at dungeon length.

Average winrate across all games, excluding games where the player quit on turn 0:
>!lg * !boring / won
><Sequell> 44955/5042356 games for * (!boring): N=44955/5042356 (0.89%)

Winrate among not-great players:
>!lg !greatplayers !boring / won
><Sequell> 28338/4771603 games for greatplayers (!boring): N=28338/4771603 (0.59%)

Winrate among not-great players, in games where they've managed to get at least 1 rune:
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune>0 / won
><Sequell> 28260/100076 games for greatplayers (!boring urune>0): N=28260/100076 (28.24%)

Median, mean, and standard deviations of the absolute dungeon depth at which zero-rune games end, when played by not-great players:
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=median(absdepth)
><Sequell> 4671555 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): median(absdepth)=3
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=avg(absdepth)
><Sequell> 4671555 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): avg(absdepth)=4.24
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=std(absdepth)
><Sequell> 4671555 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): std(absdepth)=4.8

Median, mean, and standard deviations of the actual time spent per zero-rune game, (not counting idle time), when played by not-great players:
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=median(dur)
><Sequell> 4671558 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): median(dur)=0:06:52
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=avg(dur)
>[<Sequell> 4671558 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): avg(dur)=0:20:53
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=std(dur)
><Sequell> 4671565 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): std(dur)=0:55:51

(cont)

>>148793718
>not hanging out on IRC

Have fun missing out on all of the in-jokes.

>>148793849
Have fun getting banned by the stupid bitch kate.

>>148793264
>kate asked you to stop nicely, and you didn't
So you're saying poor kate got e-raped?

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>>148793961

>>148793718
>wanting IRCfaggots in this thread
Shush anon.

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>kate won't spectate you on webtiles

>>148793753
what does !boring refer to?

>>148794534
>not quaffing boring

>>148794534
Boring games are games which are quit, or games which end by the player taking the D:1 upstair without the orb.
! before a term means "not".
So !boring is not-boring, and !greaterplayers is non-greaterplayers.

Who is Kate and why does anybody care? We already know that there aren't any women involved in roguelike games at all.

>>148793753
>>148793753
As a sanity check of the above results, let's check the character XL too:

>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=median(xl)
><Sequell> 4671570 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): median(xl)=4
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=avg(xl)
><Sequell> 4671572 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): avg(xl)=4.85
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=std(xl)
><Sequell> 4671572 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): std(xl)=3.55

Interpret the results of these queries and any others you can think of as you wish.


(If the typical DCSS player who isn't shit hot is winning SIX TENTHS OF ONE PERCENT of the time, and it's taking them 20 minutes per game to lose those games, and they rarely make it past D:9, napkin math seems to suggest here that it would be a good idea to move more content towards the first ten floors of the game, at least for the sake of exposing these players to the loadsofcontent in Crawl that they will otherwise never see that might as well not exist, for this vast majority of the playerbase.)

>>148794804
what about amy

>>148794805
If they have no game, then let them git gud.

>>148794804
Probably some retarded cunt who acts like a grrrrl gamer nerd and shits up the IRC with her feminist bullshit or some fatass imitating a girl over the internet.. Let's just stop talking about it, whoever he/she is they don't matter and only serve to fuel the namefag circlejerk.

>>148793127
>implying clown rape isn't funny

>>148794804
It's an ancient joke. There is no IRC channel, and hopefully there never will be.

>>148793753
>>148794805
>those standard deviations
Absolutely horrifying.

>>148795017
>>148794805

It's an obvious truism that players see the beginning parts of the game more often than the later parts. That's why hobgoblins have more kills than any other monster.

It stands to reason that the game would be better-improved by adding content in the early game, rather than another wizard lab that nobody will ever see.

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>>148795108
Way to ruin the fun faggot.

>>148794805
>>148793753
Explanation for someone who can barely tie his shoes in the morning?

>>148795396
Anon he gives an analysis right at the bottom of his second post.

>>148795380
Off-thread communities are not a joking matter, motherfucker.

>>148795559
Anyone else here play Alice?

>>148795368
I'd advice against making mid, late and extended less fun in comparison to early, because otherwise all you do is encourage sloppiness and new starts.

>>148795543
>expecting me to read the entire post
Anon, my ears started billowing smoke as soon as I hit the green text.

But thank you. Now I understand.

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>>148795645

>>148795256
Early game has some of the most RNG depending on background. As a MiBe i can take on gnoll packs but as a MuJustAboutAnything i can get killed by two kobolds.

>>148796412
What does that have to do with the standard deviations of player XL/abs depth/time played?

What does standard deviation mean? In the case of


>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=median(xl)
><Sequell> 4671570 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): median(xl)=4
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=avg(xl)
><Sequell> 4671572 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): avg(xl)=4.85
>!lg !greatplayers !boring urune=0 x=std(xl)
><Sequell> 4671572 games for greatplayers (!boring urune=0): std(xl)=3.55

does that mean that the worst people splat at level 1.35 and the best splat at level 8.4?

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>first thing they all do is summon vastly weaker copies of themselves, so as to take twice the turns
>second thing they all do is hightail it to the farthest corner, taking ~4 seconds each to move one square of the 8-10 they can move every turn
>they all get one turn every time I move any of my units or something like that
>they all have upwards of 200 health
>there is no skip button
I think this is the first time I've seen a roguelike try to win by making itself too boring to play.

I call it clever, but I am currently too furious at Javelin's creator to compliment him in the slightest.

>>148797090
Lol how is that game anyway

give me a trip report

>>148795791
Well that's the thing. Despite what the devs seem to be implying, there isn't a maximum level of quality that the game needs to avoid going over. You can keep the late game as fun as it is, while focusing improvements on the early game.

>>148797090
> taking ~4 seconds each to move one square of the 8-10 they can move every turn
what

Anyone got that Transmetropolitan splat.jpg?

>>148794739
FR: Potion of Boring
Transmutes all monsters on your current floor into depth appropriate sheep/yak/elephant equivalents.

>>148797090
Hah he made a post on reddit about how his "real AI" was taking too long. I'm sure his AI is better than in most roguelikes but it must be programmed very inefficiently.

>>148797304
Make post-early game more fun instead. If people can play a bazillion games and never get past Lair, then what they need is motivation to git gud and progress, not to have more fun in early.

>>148797854
This actually sounds pretty cool, maybe make it a scroll instead.

>>148797854
Uhh, elephants have a cool trample mechanic, and sheep have some kind of fire fimmick that's relevant 0.01% of the time, thus making them not-boring monsters.

i m o Lair branches need to be unfucked. They are mid-game areas, but they keep tuning them closer and closer to end-game.

>>148797013
Standard deviation is a measurement of the amount of variation in a data set.
It's hard to explain exactly what this means in highly skewed data like these samples; it's easier to explain to someone who doesn't understand with a bell curve as reference.

Using the data you posted:
The vast majority of games end at very low levels.
The mean is higher than the median, which means that the data is being skewed by the amount of games which end at higher XLs.
The standard deviation is incredibly high, meaning that games end at pretty much every experience level.

It sounds obvious, but you can estimate the shape of the graph by knowing these three numbers, which is likely that of a long slope from low XL to high XL. Knowing the mode (most frequent value) here would also be extremely useful- there is probably a huge spike at XL1 or 2 before the graph settles into its slope.

I'm not an expert of statistics by any measure, so if someone knows their shit well, do correct me.

>>148798230
imo isn't filtered senpai

>>148797946
It's Java, which explains how even a simplistic SRPG can take 4 seconds per turn. It's the only language I've seen that has intolerable performance in roguelikes even before the game reaches a high level of complexity.

>>148798527
You don't have to know anything about statistics to know that Grinder is encountered more often than Saint Roka.

>>148798230
The difficulty is fine if certain stupid monsters are removed: shock serpents, electric wasps.

Thorn hunters should be weaker but not removed because they're not stupid, just too strong. They're comparable to a stone giant which is a depths monster.
I think that's it.

>>148798628
Sorry but it's not because of Java. It's popular to hate on java but there is 0 correlation with the choice of java as a language and game performance, when it doesn't involve 3d graphics or some crazy simulation like dwarf fortress.

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>>148798628
>It's Java

>>148798527
Thanks, anon.

I wish I could start school from the beginning again and actually pay attention.

>>148797201
Once you've gotten the ability to upgrade either Strength or Dexterity (or both, both is good), you've pretty much won, with all that's left being getting through the slow, slow tedium that is every single fight against the AI. The reason for this being that Strength governs to-hit and damage for melee, and Dexterity governs to-hit for ranged, and gives a bonus to AC. With Strength alone, you can oneshot anything (except when you roll a 1, because you automatically fail your to-hit if that happens). With Dexterity alone, you can dodge anything (except when your opponent rolls a 20, because you automatically get hit if that happens) and hit anything with your ranged weapon (again, unless you roll a 1). That last, super-accurate ranged weaponry, was good in 1.5, but is at best meh now, because the upgrade that improved ranged damage, "More Ranged Damage" doesn't work anymore. At least, 300 XP and literally 1 million $ wasn't enough to buy even one rank of it.

You still need a few utilities, like Flying, some extra HP, Energy/Spell Immunity, things like that, but that just requires searching for towns that have those abilities for purchase.

I'm a sucker for d20 so I play it anyways, but I wouldn't recommend it.

>>148797526
>what
I wish I knew how to make .webms so I could show you, but you could just download Javelin yourself and check. It takes several seconds for an enemy to even move, and sometimes they run as far away from you as they can, and you must chase them. This is also known as hell.

>>148798210
Actually, maybe it wouldn't be too bad as a scroll (?beasts, maybe) if it affected monsters in LOS and used HD to select the transmute target.

I think it would work better if it were MR-bypassing though. Imagine the ?immo ?beasts sheep bomb combos~

Actually, fuck, I might go code this and upload a patch to mantis or something, this sounds kind of fun.

>>148799009
yeah but how do you fuck up a roguelike so hard that it takes 4 seconds each time a monster moves 1 tile

>>148798804
Yeah, as I said, it sounds obvious, but the numbers are still useful- especially when you start plotting numbers against each other.
>>148798628
It could be a lot worse if it were an interpreted language.

>>148799009
Weird. Are there at least interesting monsters and stuff? I read something about squad combat on the site, how is that

i have never done necro shit before
what's a fun combo to worship kiku on

or maybe i'll just do a pcb5 mimic

>>148799110
Maybe really, REALLY terrible pathfinding algorithms.

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>>148798527
>Knowing the mode (most frequent value) here would also be extremely useful- there is probably a huge spike at XL1 or 2 before the graph settles into its slope.

Mode isn't listed, but it has variance available I guess. I'm not a stats wizard or an irc wizard, so I'm probably missing some things. If you can think of any more interesting queries, please post them!

>>148799578
death knight of Yredelemnul

>>148799578
do something with decent necro and ice apts and then use simulacrum to royally fuck everything's shit up

>>148799670
Dijkstra's can be pretty slow in a large empty field (100x100 would be too much, but I can't tell how big Javelin's areas are). However, judicious use of the algorithm shouldn't lead to performance this ridiculously bad.

>>148800710
Imagine it's calculating the path to every tile in the area for each monster turn.

Aside from pathfinding, if I were to take a guess, the AI might be scanning each tile in a large area multiple times during the decision process for each turn.

Something is wrong obviously.

>>148800051
Variance isn't terribly useful, since it's just Std^2

>>148799465
He is literally copypasting monster manuals into the game, I think.

As for the squad combat: it's kinda neat. There are some special bonuses you get for flanking enemies, you sometimes get a couple of free turns when you totally surround an enemy because they try to get out of your gangbang, you can have one unit hold at the front to draw all enemy combatants to him while you have the rest of your dudes plink away with ranged weaponry, and there are other neat things like that.

There's not a lot of variance with your units because if one unit can get an upgrade, every unit can, and since there are no limits to how many upgrades you can get, there's no reason to not give a unit an upgrade if it can afford it. The reason every unit can afford an upgrade if any unit can afford an upgrade, is that EXP is spread out such that even if one unit gets an inordinate amount of EXP somehow, he'll get less EXP for the next several battles, until every unit has an equal amount.

The most amazing things Javelin has are its battle maps, probably. Water squares penalize non-swimmers/flyers, non-flyers can't cross trees/walls/mountains, non-darkvision units can't see far in the dark, bushes and rocks break LoS for non-darkvision units, and so on. It's fun to play around on, but I wouldn't play the game purely for it.
>>148800710
Typically, an area is ~35 by ~35, but I've seen much larger. The exact area appears to vary randomly.

If it matters, some squares are inaccessible to some units, some squares give penalties when stepped on by some units, some squares break LoS, some units have a larger LoS, and there is a fog of war.

>>148801131
>Imagine it's calculating the path to every tile in the area for each monster turn.
Yeah that would be retarded, and incidentally would lead to turn lengths on the order of multiple turns.

I don't know how that level of performance is acceptable to the developer.

>>148801691
Is this a roguelike at all, or is it just Disgaea with bad graphics?

>>148801981
By the standards of the Berlin Convention (turnbased, permadeath, procedural generation) I think it is.

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I was just trying to upgrade from vibration hound to ancient white or green dragon, but this is even better.

It even has detect objects spell for loot gathering.

Found the post from the Javelin dev mentioning AI
>If AI takes ages to take his turn consider setting ai.maxthread to 1, 2 or 3.
>Yes, the problem here is that the AI is taking too much RAM (memory). Each thread will add to the load - so 4 threads is 4 times the memory usage. The game is getting to be very heavy-weight, which is kind of unavoidable because of the "real" artificial intelligence it has (during battle).
On his blog he says the AI delay is a problem that needs to be optimized.

It's a RAM problem and not a CPU problem. So it's not about shitty pathfinding. I have no idea what data it could possibly store that takes so much ram. Maybe it stores the list of tiles forming each path to each tile on the map :^)

>>148799578
HuGl. SpEn.

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>>148803383
>vibration hound
tell me more

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>>148798869
Branch difficulties are fine.

What they need to do is make the early game easier and make the late game harder. But that's a bitch since accumulated gameplay options are what make the late game easier.

>>148804719
Early game needs more popcorn, late game needs far less.

>>148804698
You can attach backpacks to friendly dogs in DDA.

Why not vibrators?

>>148804719
I fear vault far more than I do the lair runes.
The staggering quantity of really nasty shit that shows up on V:5 poses a significant threat to any character. The ambush itself is a joke.

>>148805186
Slime rune is actually far easier IMO.

>>148805401
>acid blobs
no

>>148805540
>rCorr
yes

>>148805657
rCorr is placebo.
You're gonna get -20'd either way.

>>148805540
>< and diving trivializes the majority of slime.
Proper TRJ techs trivialize the remainder.

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>>148804719
This graph seems inaccurate.

>>148805540
>>148805657
>>148805727
Man that game seems hard when you're playing a tablord. I should try sometimes.

>>148806102
Seems like a pretty good approximation to me.
Should start a little later though. D1 is easy, but D2 is ridiculously dangerous.

>>148806568
d1 is rng to the extreme

does everything go well, or do you run into a pack of jackals right by the entrance and then miscast magic missile 3 times?

it's easy on tablord characters tho

>>148806926
>not leaving the dungeon
I might not win but I'm not gonna die.

>>148807125
Does it break your winstreak on xtahua?

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>>148806102

>>148807315
Probably, but I don't play online anyway.
It's only for muh roleplay reasons.

>>148807315
I meant on webtiles generally

the people with mad winstreaks fascinate me

>>148807359
>difficulty decreasing as you approach lair
Dungeon with a late Lair is scary now.

>>148807359
outdated imotbhfam
if you survive the new Orc:2, runes 1 and 2 are a cakewalk

>>148807541
Difficulty decreases as you gain piety, experience and gear. By the time you get to lair, you should be almost comfortable exploring dungeon.

>>148807621
I find that it heavily depends on what build/what gear you have. Having rPois/rElec make it far easier and so on. I find first rune/second rune to be rather hostile if I'm a little unlucky.

>>148807359
>Difficulty not going up based on the level the lair is on

>>148808502
It'd actually be a really complicated chart depending on if you got 2-3 pips of MR, rPois, rElec, rF and rC along with varying levels of AC/EV. And your god. And your start.

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>>148807359
Mine

>>148808897
I like it.

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so is there anything ever in these cells or is it just decoration?

>>148809423
So, Were You Born Retarded, Or, Is This An Recent, Change....????
??

>>148809969
Jaden Smith please go and stay go.

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>Yamabiko comes into view. It shouts!

>>148807541
Except the scariest thing in the dungeon is the lair entrance. There's nothing in late D that's dangerous unless you don't have Sinv.

>>148811692
Ugly Things

Other than grinding, what is the fun aspect of Angband-likes such as PCB? Is the combat itself interesting?

>>148811692
>What are ruks
>What are ugly things
>What are unseen horrors
>What are uniques like Azrael
So on and so forth. Lair entrance can be spooky, but a single unseen horror can just outright kill you if you're unlucky.

>>148812375
The loot and weird classes you can pick. I don't like vanilla angband much because it is poor at both of those.

>Is the combat itself interesting?
Pretty much the standard bump to attack system. Strong monsters and especially uniques are more than capable of smearing you across the floor in a couple of rounds if you do something dumb in a way that you don't really see in DCSS or nethack. Whether that is an enjoyable thing is up to you.

>>148813319
The loot game in vanilla is great. No idea what you're smoking.
Items are overall way better designed aside from a small few (the artefact shooter with +10 speed for example).

>>148813510
You can't hoard though since your house holds like ten things and you have to spend it on late game consumables. What's the point of all that loot if you can't autism it up?

>>148813319
>if you do something dumb in a way that you don't really see in DCSS or nethack.
That's interesting. Could you give an example?

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>>148811406
Tell me about yahoo. Why does she wear the ears?

>>148812439
>but a single unseen horror can just outright kill you if you're unlucky
Legit, how the hell do I survive if I run into one on goddamn D:8 with no SInv? Do I just pray?

I've only gotten the Orb as MiBe, which is starting to feel pretty sad. I've started to play as OgWi, but what spellcasters would you recommend. DeFe? Something else?

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>>148814324
>Yamabiko casts Raging Roar.
>"Yahoo!"
>Raging Roar hits you.
>You are confused

>>148814668
DEFE is ezmodo caster
TeCj is ez as well

>>148814561
Teleport, lure into a hallway, summon, area effect magic.

>>148814668
I wouldn't recommend casters at all.
Evokers and charmlords are much more fun.
DCSS casters are kind of boring terrible garbage until you can cast level 7 spells and channel or have some other way of rapidly restoring mana.
That said I would probably recommend DrCj first. Or --IE, any decent race works.

>>148814561
Keep any protection brand weapons you find specifically for unseen horrors and centaurs. Run for a corridor, close doors and generally just try to get to stairs. Fog + sticky flame will both reveal it.

>>148814738
y-yahoo...?

>>148814968
Seconded. Draconians seem to be pretty good casters (because they usually get an elemental bonus, and they don't have to fuck with armor), whereas elves are often too squishy.

Any conjurer or elementalist is easy compared to other magic casters, except some transmuters depending on species.

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Why

>>148815340
holy shit i haven't seen that vault in actual years

>>148814254
It's hard to die in two rounds against monsters in those games because of the way the combat works (DCSS combat is highly random. And, it's actually hard to die in nethack's late game by hitting zero hp outside of the astral plane because of immunities and ac being all of evasoin, damage reduction and easily available), whereas in *bands damage is much more constant-both player and monster-and as a result does a much higher percentage of player max hp. Healing mid-fight is a necessity in *bands.

Jorgrun and Nikola are probably the most pcb-y DCSS uniques, except for being too easily neutralised by resistances.

>>148814968
Thanks! I'll try DrCj.

>>148815340
That's a fun vault.
>Norris
May he rest in peace.

>>148815574
Also Erolcha.

>>148815340
The orc appearing on the up staircase is a nice touch. You have to go down.

>>148815340
>actually cropping out your name
this deserves worldwide recognition

>>148815574
Doesn't that just reduce each fight to a matter of whether or not you have enough healing potions to make it through, just like in a JRPG?

>>148815929
yes

>>148815829
Why? I let the random name generator give me something for each new build I try when I start posting here.

>>148815929
Somewhat, especially the final levels, but you can't buy more in town so spending all your potions makes it harder to get more.

>>148816261
He's playing online. It's trivial to find out who someone is online when only their name is cropped out.

>>148815829
Why would you crop it out if you're playing online? Its trivial to found the player, plus it just makes it harder to get help or for others to learn via watching.

>>148816426
>you are harmed in some way if people in a roguelike thread learn that you are playing a roguelike game

>>148816643
Which is why it's weird if you crop your name out?

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>can't animate people's flaming weapons or dithmenos will get mad
why does this fucker have to be on Lair:1

>>148817295
Ghost weapons can't be animated afaik.
Also Ha>Ko.

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Too much has been lost.

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>>148816757
What if I'm shy?

Did you ever stop for a moment to consider *my* feelings?

>>148817428
i like eating corpses but i will probably try Sp/Ha because this KoEn is not working out for me

>>148817429
>gargoyles and racial items existed at the same time

blew my fucking mind

Are there any roguelikes that are pretty easy to get into (i.e. don't just murder you dead constantly) but have a fair bit of depth to them?
I've played Cataclysm and really liked it, but kind of done everything there is to do in it and hoping for other similar things.

>>148817429
>>148817594

The sands of time run ever faster.

One day, children won't even believe you when you tell them about mountain dwarves.

>>148817720
tome4 takes some learning to really nail down, but it's easy enough to get into. It uses a cooldown-based ability system to spice up typical bump-attack gameplay.

You also have a limited stock of lives in the default mode, which prevents you from being totally assguttered without neutering the threat of permadeath.

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Hey Oka I'm doing this awesome shield bu-

o-ok

>>148818547
>shields with axes
nigger what

>>148818650
It works quite well with Oka actually since you are guaranteed a good broad axe.

>>148818808
the weapon availability is not the problem famalam

>>148818904
Broad axes plus shields is good. I know you were raised on memes, but you should give it a try.

>>148818547
>a voice booms from the heavens:
>"SHIELDS? DON'T BE A FAGGOT."

>>148818650
>>148818904
>t. wand acquirer

>>148819518
how dare you

i'm a member of AAA

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They don't do this anymore.

>>148820358
>The orc picks up an orcish dagger of distortion.
>The orc throws an orcish dagger of distortion.
>Welcome to the abyss!

>>148820358
Orc warlords could do that shit and peg you for like 30 damage

scary

>>148820643
They can still do that with stones.

>>148814254
in nethack lategame there's nothing that can really kill you in 2-3 turns except via instadeath effects like stoning, wand of death, drowning...

in *bands most lategame monsters have huge damage breath attacks, darkness/nether/mana storm spells, etc and can easily knock off more than half your hp in one round
which is why people spend shitloads of time in pcb grinding up healing potions for the final fight: the Serpent is tanky as fuck and will cast mana storm, hand of doom, etc multiple times over the course of the fight, at which point you need to IMMEDIATELY heal to full or else you're at risk of oneshot the next turn

>>148821567
that sounds like the antithesis of fun

>>148815929
there's tactics involved as well

healing potions can't save you if something summons greater demons and you're getting breathed on by 3 balrogs or manastormed by 3 archliches at the same time, so you need to position so they can't all get at you or blow consumables (genocide, destruction) on getting rid of them ASAP

>>148821947
It's pretty fun. I'll make a video next time I fight the serpent; a lot of people have really big misconceptions about it.

>>148821567
I don't know man, you made it sound like J is actually really tough. I think you should mention next time that if your character survived up to that point and you're actually prepared for the serpent you'll have amazing artifact armor which gives you lots of speed, resists, immunities along with a weapon with stupid-high dice and as you said lots of *healing*, life, with some mass genocide sprinkled in. The fight actually gets tedious if you've killed him a bunch of times because of the grind. I keep telling people the only reason anyone plays PCB is because of the artifact loot.

>>148822902
>gives you lots of speed
i mean when you're around the +35 the serpent's at you're hitting pretty serioius diminishing returns, so no matter how much speed you get you won't be often double-turning it and so a speed advantage doesn't matter much there

however having less speed than it does give you the chance to randomly instantly die to the serpent double-turning you.

>>148821958
what if you're injured (i.e. one-shot death next turn) and also need to reposition because of new summons

>>148823221
then you read a scroll of destruction (which nukes the area near you and removes *almost* all monsters, although they can save vs it if mon level > 1d2000)
or a scroll of mass genocide (which removes monsters like destruction but without the nuke and it doesn't affect uniques)
or a scroll of teleport level (which almost certainly will save you but you're giving up on all the loot on the current level)

or just a normal scroll of teleport or phase door which might save you but is risky and rng

or you trip your character's 1% scroll fail chance (I think it depends on int?) and die

or if you're a cool class you cast dimension door (40? range controlled blink through walls) and literally never die because you can get it to a 0% fail chance at high enough level

>>148823648
>scroll fail chance
fucking garbage mechanic

>>148823818
The 1% minimum fail chance shit in PCB is retarded.
>its hardcore
>muh difficulty
Not really.

>>148823818
i swear this is one of those rng screw mechanics that PCB added that I don't remember being in angband

see also PCB's fear: take lots of damage at once and you need to roll charisma to save against fear (it also triggers in some other situations)
if you actually become afraid then there's a chance to fail any action and lose your turn, so just the fact that you were reduced to low hp might make you afraid enough to fail to use your emergency consumables

>>148823818
basically scroll fail exists as a way to randomly fuck over and kill warrior-types

mages with genocide/teleport/ddoor/destruction/wall of stone/etc spells can get them down to 0% fail chance, but they have the other problem that normal (low) mages are garbage at doing damage lategame while high-mages can only learn one spell school so they normally either get consistent damage OR good utility

>>148824012
Fear is better since Im pretty sure you can always quaff through it.
Fear is a Z thing, I think?
Definitely neither are in Vanilla.

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>>148824280
It's fucking retarded either way, warriors will have a 10 something percent chance of failing to pronounce mass genocide correctly at level 50.

>>148824467
gotta wear them gauntlets of the wizard (+5) {InMd}

>>148824512
>5 pval md
Talk about BIS.

>>148824512
Sacred Pendant is a lot better but good luck finding it.

>>148824615
they don't exist anymore in pcb5
nerfed to 4 max pval

even before then it was really hard to find a good pair though. most have -strength -con or both, and usually a low pval like 1 or 2

Is it just me, or does summoning suck in DCSS these days

>>148824757
remember when there was no limit on summons and they could attack even if not in LoS

good times

>>148824757
summoning stopped being good after .10

>>148824748
555

>>148824757
you're about four versions too late or whenever summoning was nerfed with an ugly stick

>>148824757
It's strong, it just feels like garbage to play because being able to have fun playing a summoner would be scummy and degenerate.

>>148824942
sticks2snakes tho

>>148824964
Artifacts don't spawn in 555 sadly.

>>148824757
Its very strong, but it plays poorly due to having to direct your summons and the experience loss kind of bites. Its way better to transition into summoning than to start as a summoner.

>>148824964
>>148824964
>>148825218
Well actually there's Sacred Pendant which is the artifact and it gives a pretty hefty boost to devices and there's Sacred Pendant which is just a possible amulet name.

jesus christ shoggoths don't fuck around

I unloaded my shotgun into its face and it literally had regenerated to full hp between shots

I never should have opened this fucking door, shit

>>148826365
>he fell for the gun meme

>>148826509
my hanzo steel was doing like 3 damage an attack so I decided to try shooting it

didn't work

>>148826365
They move like retards though so it's easy to outmaneuver them.

>>148826574
I was just shitposting, did you run into the ones in the Lab finale?

>>148817295
If that's my Naga, run. That's a +8 artifact dagger, and he could cast fireball reliably.

>>148826593
i'm encased in impenetrable armor and have repair nanobots running so it can't kill me either, but I'm too fat to outrun it

I'm just exploring the rest of this lab while it follows me around ineffectually trying to eat me

>>148826631
no, there was a mi-go in a cell and I was tired of having to confirm every action 10 times because I could hear it shouting from across the map, so I went to go kill it

I used the wrong console and it unlocked the shoggoth cell instead

now it won't go away

>>148826668
>responding to a post nearly 3 hours old
I think he found out already if it was or wasn't your naga.

>>148824976
Not even the ridiculousness of infinite Sif Muna channeling is enough these days. With conjurations, you could easily rip apart a lair branch with level 6 spells or less (see: Freezing Cloud, Fireball, the elemental bolts, etc.). With summons, you're in for a hell of a time even with Summon Horrible Things castable (i.e. a level 8 spell)

The summon cap and LOS nerf were both needed, but a combination of enemy power creep and general nerfs for the summoning school rather than buffs (Monstrous Menagerie's addition was probably the last time summoning got buffed rather than nerfed).

Three out of four lair branches are brutal beyond belief with a Summoner:

Spider? Ghost moths being permanently invisible would make you want to kill yourself if you weren't already going to die to them (and that's ignoring the fact that retreating when out of MP is extremely d//ifficult with how fast everything in the branch is). Emperor scorpions having such high defenses compared to most other enemies also means it takes a lot of summons to wear them down, although at least ice beasts still are somewhat effective against them if alone.
Snake? The entire branch is just an unending barrage of fuck you. Naga sharpshooters having portal projectile and thus being able to smite-target shoot you in your fragile face, shock serpent lightning bolts, constriction making escape extremely difficult, guardian serpents being able to surround you with enemies when you want to be surrounded by your own summons, and the only saving grace being that you don't have to worry that much about naga mages or greater naga because they're merely slow-moving offensive spellcasters.
Shoals? Hope you have Monstrous Menagerie or better available, because half of the summons from that are enemies in this branch! Also enjoy being surrounded because of how open the branch is and thus not able to focus your summons in a single direction to have them actually tear through enemies.

Continued next post.

>>148826793
>With summons, you're in for a hell of a time even with Summon Horrible Things castable (i.e. a level 8 spell)
Uh no, SHT would destroy everything. Monstrous menagerie, lvl 6, would kill everything without difficulty.

>>148826793


Swamp's the odd-one out in that it's not THAT rough, although if you're caught without MP or enough summons already out against a thorn hunter you're going to be in for a world of hurt.

At least Slime's easier than usual because you can flood the Slime:$ end vault with summons and somewhat cancel out TRJ's gimmick.

And then you hit Vaults with the unending barrage of reaching and hard hitting enemies, the yaktaur packs that will snipe your ass off if they spot an opening (or even if they don't if one gets a penetration xbow), and of course the chance of getting hit by a sentinel's mark and having to flee to the staircase before everything on the floor lines up to murder you. Oh, and word of recall when it inevitably goes off thanks to shitty summon AI also can suck ass. And having the doors or staircases locked away by a vault warden when you're out of MP is a teleport or die level issue.

Oh, and don't even try and do V:$ as a summoner. Go do Tomb instead, at least there you can stairdance your way to victory.

And then Depths is just an unending barrage of enemy packs that are each stronger than pretty much every summon you can put out and/or more numerous. If you don't have MM or better by this point, just ctrl+q+yes and save yourself the trouble.

If you somehow make it to Zot you can probably still win just off the back of Shadow Creatures there if you play carefully enough, but honestly you're better off doing what >>148825247 said and just learning shadow creatures later on with an actually good character rather than building up to it as a summoner.

I don't even know how the fuck you're supposed to win a pure summoner without Sif Muna's unending channeling, and I don't think I can bring myself to try. The effective infinite MP fountain for near no cost (or none if you're a Mu) is just too critical.

>>148826917
The best and fastest DCSS player in the world, Demise, repeatedly failed to win Felid Summoner, even after getting MM castable

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>>148826996
"You're not supposed to play pure summoner, it's a support skill."
t. DCSS devs

>>148827035
Clearly he's not that good at playing felid summoner then. Also that has more to do with felids being shit than summoners being bad.

I did Lair branches in 0.18 with a summoner who didn't have monstrous menagerie. I used summon ice beasts, lightning spire and mana viper. It was tedious but not hard. Snake and swamp. Shoals would have been easier than snake.

>>148826917
That's the point; even with XXX castable there are tons of things that can go wrong due to how fragile you're going to end up being in between a lower XL and not having as much XP to divert to defenses.

Most characters are not going to have XXX castable by the time they hit their first lair branch anyways. Maybe MM at most, and that's if they get lucky enough to find it before then (since MM and XXX are Grand Grimoire only outside of sif-gifts).

>>148827296
Source this quote please.

>>148827035
>Felid summoner
Yeah, no shit that'd be hard.

>>148826793
>>148826996
I think the worst part of summoner start is having no melee. Its a beginning that wants you to be a combat mage ASAP so that you can wade into combat to get those distraction stabs. But it doesn't have the benefits of necromancy, where you have offensive spells and buffs. Necromancy doesn't constantly sap your exp or randomly get abjured all at once. So many enemies can just abjure your shit or literally just walk passed them straight to you. Its awful, and you can't even command your dudes without wasting a turn. Once you're strong enough, your ice beasts and lightning spires can actually clear your branches for you. Assuming you can help them out. Getting there is hellish though. You'll never be the MuSu who has infinite MP and dragons. You're more like an OK tab dude who summons backup for the harder encounters.

>>148827296
Basically this, sadly. I wouldn't say its a support skill so much as a "secondary" build. You do something well first and then branch into it.

>>148826793
>>148826996
>I don't even know how the fuck you're supposed to win a pure summoner without Sif Muna's unending channeling, and I don't think I can bring myself to try. The effective infinite MP fountain for near no cost (or none if you're a Mu) is just too critical.

About that...

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=ff1bd0964ec39ab475a87de2779313b4afd0ef25

>>148827545
Abjuration isn't even that big of an issue since enemy summoners capable of abjuring are on the rare side. It is worth mentioning that they've deliberately made pretty much all player-available summons have shitty duration these days, whereas back in the good old days of summoning XXX and dragons were basically immune to that particular screw-you. Oh, and you also had AOE abjuration yourself as a level 3 spell, rather than the current state of a level 5 spell that can take more than 1 turn to actually abjure enemy summons.

>>148827641
...What the fuck is this shit. Literally what the fuck.

>>148827871
From what I understand, most enemies who can summon something have a 50% chance to abjure instead. At the very least, enemies where you'd want to summon (like liches) basically come prepared for your bullshit. Not so much if you just make some simulacrum.

>>148827871
>e-sport
>turn count
Do you get it now ?
Anything that increases turn count (infinite mana channeling spam) is looked down by e-sport players.

https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/blog

Trunk updates, 12 July 2016
Sif Muna:
Channel Energy is gone. Replacing it at 1* is Divine Energy, a toggleable ability that lets the player cast spells without having enough mp. Using this effect causes a -Cast status for several turns, depending on how many MP the player was short by.
New 3* ability: Channel Magic, a Trog’s Hand-like invocation that trades piety for a brief, but significant, MP regeneration boost.
Book gifts now appear starting from 5*, not 6*.
Sif now gives partial piety for kills, in addition to (slightly reduced) piety from skill training.

>>148793264
>females with any semblance of power
I TRIED TO WARN YOU
BUT YOU WOULDN'T LISTEN
IT'S TOO LATE NOW

>>148828416
>implying females know how to use computers or access the internet
dont worry kate is probably just a trap

>>148828480
>semblances of females with semblance of power
IT LOOKS LIKE THE END

>>148797710
Give me an hour or so.

>>148828173
It was more that it was a really shitty ability to use in the middle of battle. You either had free turns to use it that weren't better spent doing other stuff, or you were trading HP for MP by using it. You spammed it after battle to regen faster, but it wasn't very useful otherwise. And I'm speaking as someone who was really fond of the ability. Sif's brain gain looks way better and probably works better in practice.

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>>148828769
Found it

>>148827641
No seriously what the fuck were they thinking with those changes in regards to summoning.

So when you inevitably run out of MP and need more summons than what the extra 1 cast from the new 1* ability would give, now you have to burn piety for the most piety-stingy god in the game.

Like for NON-summoners it seems like a massive improvement in every way, since being able to squeeze out another Fire Storm or other massive conjuration from your MP pool is huge (or being able to cast Death's Door at 0 MP!), and Trog's Hand but for MP means you don't have to stand around and do nothing for several turns channeling your MP back up enough for another huge spell.

It's just for summons that it doesn't seem to fit very well at all. One extra cast of a summon doesn't mean anywhere near as much as one extra cast of a conjuration or a panic "don't die" spell like cblink or DDoor thanks to the existence of the summon cap unless you're already having your summons die in droves, in which case one extra cast still probably won't cut it. So you use the 3* ability to get enough MP to maybe turn the fight around, but the advantages of being able to continue to act while getting MP back is somewhat diminished as a summoner unless things have completely gone south, and the piety cost is just a huge nerf because previously Su didn't have to worry about that.

It's just they pretty much went "ok so Sif's channel was basically the lifeline for Summoners but neglected by everyone else; how do we make Summoners cry even harder while making other people want to use Sif Muna?"

Oh yeah, the change also murdered the very last vestiges of MuSu being a remotely good combo. With the new equivalent to the old channeling having the main cost be piety rather than hunger, the lack of a food clock for Mu no longer gives you any real benefit for worshipping Sif Muna.

...actually, what benefit even remains for Mu's lack of hunger? Xomscumming?

>>148829734
Gozag I guess.
Gozag is pretty much tailor made for Mummies.

>>148829734
mummies get to ignore the most tedious thing in the game

>>148829734
Lack of hunger is really nice for spamming spells as soon as your learn them. More of an mid/endgame benefit, and a smaller one at that. Summoning most likely needs a rework. Again, your mistake is that you expect to survive with ONLY summoning. Just as you cannot have a PURE necromancy who survives only with skeletons and zombies, you also can't do so with summoning. You get through the dungeon by using your summons to supplement your melee or casting abilities. Its just a super shit start because you can't use it as a crutch without hobbling yourself.

>>148830037
>>148830057
Don't worry, they'll remove food too eventually.

>>148830118
I wouldn't really mind so much, but it really does limit casters on how much bullshit they can pull.

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>>148830185
Just watch them add "spell exhaustion."

>>148830271
What is the difference?

>>148830302
presumably you could refill it by pressing 5 instead of pressing c and then e

>>148830302
You can't pop a royal jelly in combat to fix it.

>>148830271
source fampai

>>148830057
Yeah.

Or you could just worship Trog and get BiA for 0 investment. Or any of the other deities with strong top-end summons from abilities.

Maybe I'll just try Nemelex evocations bullshit again and evoke cards/rods until I get a summon-style win with that?