Defend this

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Most modern games don't run off a life system and just penalize you for dying and sending you back to X checkpoint. Who cares?

>>383026762
*defends your mum*

>>383026932
FPBP

I'd glady defend Bloodborne while I'm at it.

>>383026762

so you dont die but get taken back to last checkpoint?

besides, they're no game overs in real life; only for sinners.

Lives in video games are hideously dated. The punishment for dying should be an actual punishment, not "play more game". Taking your precious money is perfect because you're actually losing something that has value, not an arbitrary number that signifies how many times you die until the game puts you a couple feet farther back when you respawn.

>>383026762
There's no game overs in dark souls either

>>383026762
You loose you coins to buy things with everytime you die. Seems like an ok trade off seeing as most mario games have nearly infinite lives.

You couldn't even die in Wario Land 2 and it's one of the best platformers ever made.

>>383026762

It's about time. Game Over screens are an archaic relic of the past that need to be done away with. It's irritating to have to sit through a 5-10 second animated GO screen just to be able to restart where I left off.

Lives are an outdated design choice and they've been a vestigial feature in 3d Mario forever since lives are abundant and you don't get punished much for game overs.

>>383026762
Don't need to. Attacking the notion is foolish.

>>383026762
Outdated concept that originated from pay-to-play arcade games. If you didn't 99 lives in any Mario with a save feature, you're a fucking bottom tier scrub.

>>383026762
It isn't 1991 anymore anon

white males are an archaic game design
nintendo should replace mario with a person of color

>>383026762
Game Over screens are triggering and problematic
i'm glad they're getting rid of them
and besides they do nothing but just waste the developer's time and money
now that time and money can be used to make the game even more inclusive and welcoming to different abled persons and poc

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>Introduce Super Guides in Galaxy 2
>As an excuse to make it the hardest 3D Mario ever anyway

Really tantalized my grey matter

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>Get Game Over in SM64
>Go back to title screen
>Walk back to level in under a minute

Game overs in Mario games are pretty pointless because the overall punishment is so little

>>383026762
When have you ever gotten a game over in Mario
This is fine because it literally won't effect anyone with a brain. The thing I'm worried about is only losing a small amount of coins after death. Penalty should be higher, maybe like 30-50 instead of fucking 10.

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>>383026762
Defend this.

>>383026762
If you get a game over, the game sends online feedback to an assassin who will come kill you in real life.

>>383027280
>needing a saving system in order to rack up 99 lives
I want casuals to go

>>383026762
Because game overs don't mean shit in modern games anyway.

>>383026762
Darksouls has no gameovers

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>>383026762

>>383026932

>Most modern games

well thats the problem, modern games are casual, and so you are scum

Also LAIN a shit

It sucks in the sense that there's basically no punishment for being a total fuckup, but as others have said in the thread, Mario games were already very forgiving despite having a lives system.

As such, I actually sort of approve of this. Keeps you in the game more.

>>383026762
Does it really make a difference? Game Overs make sense in a time when beating a game in a single run would only take half an hour. Now that games last upwards of ten hours on average, Game Overs are pretty hypocritical since they never force you to go back to the start anyways. Take Galaxy for example, dying in that game really barely sets you back at all. I'm all in favour of more creative penalties.

>>383026762
game over is an outdate mechanich in mario games since super mario world (at least), where you basically had infinite lives.
also, it is going to be easy as fuck, so you weren't going to game over even if there was.

>>383026762
Lives systems are pointless in modern platformers, or any game, really.

The only reason lives existed before was because arcade machines needed to eat children's quarters, and that was the easiest way to do it.

The only reason it's continued to exist on consoles at all is just a matter of tradition.

>>383027096
>5 ways Mario is LITERALLY Dark Souls
I can see the headlines now

Game Over's have essentially not existed in Mario games since 64 since you can just continue from where you left off. all this does is save you not having to get booted back to the title screen and reloading you're save.

losing lives was artificial punishment

Is Mario going through a mid life crisis?

>>383026762
So will Wario get his immortality back for the next Warioland?

The only reason games ever had a "lives" system is so they could run up all your quarters at the arcade.

>>383027659
>why is MUH MARIO too casual
not sure what you were expecting

>>383026762
Lives have become moot since checkpoint systems. As long as there's still penalties in game economy for failure, it should still be fine.

>>383026932
"modern games" is the wrong word. what I think youre trying to tell is that "aaa+++ games are aiming for the stupidest and the biggest audience". if you never even liked video games to begin with.

>>383027659
(you)

>>383027879
hey man don't remind me that there's never gonna be another 2d warioland

>we want the Call of Duty audience

why is modern gaming so soulless? i bet even Sonic Mania will not have game overs. dieing to some bullshit late into a Sonic game and having to replay the whole thing was an essential part of the classic Sonic experience.

>>383026762
Why are people bothered by this? Will you people cry when they remove boss battles too? Why do people like outdated shit?

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God-Tier Game over screens: The Series
Especially 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ-HwojX40E

>>383027776
>game over is artificial punishment

Dark Souls doesn't have game over

Monster Hunter doesn't have game over

BotW has game over

I'm glad Nintendo finally took a stand. Dying in videogames is an outdated system and people shouldn't be penalized if they do a mistake. It is a perfect harmony; a hard, challenging game that doesn't make you retry something that proves to be difficult.

>>383028107
I know this is bait but is COD even relevant anymore?

>>383026762
it's a collectathon you dumb cunt.
Does banjo tooie has a life counter?

Because it's okay when Nintendo does it.

>>383027435
>triggering and problematic

Does it really matter? the last real challenging Mario game was World and and the newer mario games you;d just end the game with 300 or so lives anyway since they hand out coins and lives like candy

>every decision nintendo makes it bad

remember mario galaxy is shit because it has the pointless lives that do nothing
but odyssey is shit because they removed lives

It is okay when Nintendo is making games more casual.
But if only would that be any othercompany, /v/irgins would be pissed.

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What does a game over even mean in a mario game? Will you save file be deleted or something?

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You niggers don't even play the fucking games you bitch about

>WAHHH NEW MARIO HAS BUBBLES
>Once you get towards the end of the game the platforming becomes so ridiculous and intense even my buddies and I had to abuse the bubbles
>WAHHH ZELDA HAS A SUPER GUIDE
>They give you vague hints at best and the entirety of SS was a nonstop dungeon with constant puzzles
>WAHHHH MARIO HAS A SUPER GUIDE
>You don't even get real stars for using it and are blocked from endgame content until you go back and do it for real
>WAAAHHHHH DONKEY KONG HAS A SUPER GUIDE
>You're penalized for using it and don't get to keep any of your items until you go back and collect them again for real

I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that not a single one of you faggots watched the E3 coverage where the section they talked about not having lives looked like the most insane platform hell I've seen in a Mario game.

>smb1
>infinite lives in world 3, never get a game over
>smb2jp
>infinite lives in world 1-1, definitely never get a game over
>smb2usa
>slots shit out lives, might get a game over but probably not. plus you got peach (babby mode)
>smb3
>infinite lives in world 1, never get a game over
>smw
>infinte lives in top secret area, never get a game over
>sm64
>game overs have no consequence
>sms
>no consequence
>galaxy
>lives grow on trees
>galaxy 2
same
>nsmb (all)
same
>3d land
infinite lives in world 1
>3d world
pretty sure infinite lives in world 1
this literally effects nothing

Mario the new Dark Souls

>mario goes hollow when dying once
>Every death brings down your health
> You can change your mario outfir to be carrying less weight and jump further

Is there any game that wouldnt benefit from being literally dark sools

>>383026762
>Defend this

Just look at the available gameplay and how the game is designed. Coins are actual currency and there are warp points everywhere.

Like shit its not like its level/course based so game over or lives will add nothing to it. Since at a game over one can just teleport to a check point and bam be back at where they just were.

>>383028170
CoD basically invented the modern casual gamer. and now they are coming for Mario.

>>383026762

>hurr durr nintendo makes only good games
>hurr durr i suck marios cock

Defending this would be like railing against the fact that the special olympics feature retards.

Anyway, limited lives have a place in roguelikes/roguelites. But not in anything else. They're an arcades relic. You should be penalized for dying, though. Souls series does it right. That's the only way to make you care about dying and put some tension in the game.

>>383026762
>no game overs

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>383026762
>no game over
>instead of lives Mario loses coins when he dies
Is this.... dare I say....... the Dark Souls of Super Mario Brothers?
Crash fags on suicide watch desu

>>383028439
no that was Halo

>>383026932
And does that mean that's acceptable because most modern games do it? Most modern games are shit.

Nothing is better at taking the tension and challenge away from a game if you know in the back of your mind if you die you'll only be placed a few feat backwards with no real punishment.

>no more *1-UP* sound

what's next our BINGS and WAA-HOOs?

>>383026762
"Game Over" lost all meaning after the SNES where the fuck have you been?

>>383028323
This. This is cutting out useless a "feature." Bitch about Amiibos and DLC or some other real problems.

>"I'll be your 1Up girl"
>No 1Up Mushrooms
I'm fine with the change but this is triggering my tisms

>>383026762
>what is wario land

>>383027096
Finally, the Dark Souls of Mario games we've all been waiting for!

It looked fucking awful the second i saw realistic graphics with marios cartoon style.

Nintendo will finally have a huge fuck up. It its going to be a disaster.

>>383026762
I can't remember the last game with a GAME OVER

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Game Overs have been pointless since the save feature was invented

Most of the time Game Overs were a punishment for sucking too much, and its sends you back to the beggining of the game

But nowadays? It just sets you back like 5 minutes at your last checkpoint. They're pointless nowadays

>>383028673
>tension and challenge
>Mario

Casul

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I asked this before in the last thread and couldn't get a genuine answer.

Why does it matter? How does it affect you? Why do you care? You whiny faggots keep saying that MUH CASHUALS are going to ruin gaming, but yet we still get Dark Souls, the Crash remakes are phenomenal, and you still get tons of balls hard shit like Hollow Knight.

Where is this supposed casual takeover? I can stomp the dogshit out of Bayonetta or Wonderful 101 on the hardest difficulty and have a great time, and I lose absolutely no sleep if someone wants to play on easy.

How autistic do you have to be to get upset at how someone else wants to play a game?

>>383028075
N-Never say never, anon!

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>>383027097
What happens when you run out of coins to lose?

>>383027052
I know it's only topical because of the remake but Crash/Spyro did lives well. Lives used for checkpoints and if you ran out you it just sent you back to the home world where you restart the level. It was easy as shit to collect wampa fruit/butterflies to get 99 lives.

>>383028132
If gane over, go to title screen, load save data loads you at you last checkpoint, and dying with extra lives respawns you at the same checkpoint, then game over is just an unneccisary kick to load menu.

Game overs only actually mattered in early mario 2d platormers where game over would force you back to 1-1, but death with extra lives just made you restart the level.

>>383028340
>infinite lives in world 1-1, definitely never get a game over
Speaking from experience, if you get too many lives, it loops over and you're back to one life. I don't know when it loops over because if you have more than ten lives the start screen has a fucking seizure, but I assume it's about 99 lives. It probably works the same way for smb1.

>>383028945
>Game Overs have been pointless since the save feature was invented
Super Metroid

Game overs only mattered up to Super Mario Bros 3.

Super Mario World had levels that remained unlocked even when you Game Over and Super Mario 64 had no punishment for game over apart from going through a minute's worth of menus. Lives are only good if the game actually punishes you for losing them.

>>383029148
it's 127
you won't lose near that much

>>383026762
Do people really have a hard time with lives in Mario games? You get so damn many of them it's just pointless to even have a counter

>>383028993
Just the usual pissing and moaning over a change. In 6 months nobody will remember this.

>>383029148
I remember when I got more than 9 lives, the 1 in ten turned into the same sprite thy used for peach's crown

Game overs were an arbitrary point created to limit sessions in arcade machines. They're obsolete by now.

>>383028945
This should change. I'm tired of damn near every game being a casualized piece of crap. I'd love to see a game come out that does something like Demon's Souls. You die and it is back to the beginning of the level for you.

Nintenbros going into maximum damage control.

I refuse to believe people could be stupid enough to repeat IGN "gameovers are bad wah" complaints.

>>383026762
Dark souls has no game overs either.

>>383026762
The game still has a penalty system in place and that penalty impedes you from buying cool shit sometimes.

It's like on JRPGs that punish you by halving your gold. You still continue with the progress you made, but you lost half your money. 10 coins is a nominal fee but having to farm coins for those hot ticket items is gonna be a bitch when a course starts to kick your shit in with pit deaths or what have you.

The only mario games where lives/continues are an actual impediment on your progress is SMB(NES) and the lost levels.

>>383026932
>everyone else is doing it!
Wow, just like paid online. Nintendies are the worst.

>>383029401
>reddit spacing
>>>/out/
Reported.

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>>383029323
There was some asswipe in the last thread who was whining about how it literally hurts his feelings and makes him feel like less of a person

Like holy shit lol imagine if games meant that fucking much to you

My other hobby is to build models. I love building the super ridiculous gundams, does that mean I'm allowed to throw tantrums at the people who just want to put together the little snap together models? Am I allowed to snort and laugh at people who read short novels while I'm sitting here with my big medical textbooks?

Imagine being so much of a faggot you get upset at what others do in their spare time

>>383029401
>he's never played Wario Land

Be honest

What's the last Mario PLATFORMER game past 1996 you had a game over on and was said Game Over any more punishing than losing a life?

>>383028602
You lose what, 10 coins?

That's nothing. I make 10 coins an hour at my job.

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>>383026762
Why? You're just gonna shitpost anyway by making more threads and never responding after you drop some bait.

>>383026762
Game overs in Mario haven't been relevant in fucking decades.

This isn't even a matter of them being antiquated or some shit; they haven't been used to any real extent in any of the 3D mario games.

>>383029854

>bump

What did he mean by this?

>>383026762
No gameover in souls games and you lose currency when you die in those as well.
LITERALLY
>it's okay when sony does it

oh wait no
>it's okay when a game that makes my insecurity issues go away does it

>>383029598
>Imagine being so much of a faggot you get upset at what others do in their spare time

Pretty much the universal sign that your life has become completely stagnant and boring. Old people do it constantly.

>>383028945
depends on the game really. it adds at least somekind of challenge when instead of always going to the last checkpoint, you'll end up at the start after running out of lifes

>>383029806
T. Luigi

>>383029604
Wario Land 2 and 3 dished out punishment in different ways. Losing coins, not getting the treasure piece you need, getting ringed out of a boss battle and all that. 3 did have a Game Over though, but only because Wario can't shrug off rape by a demon clown god.

4 had a health system but all that does is kick Wario out of the stage.

>>383029574
I'm

sorry

are

you

triggered

>>383027096
but dark souls is shit

>>383027529
Shut your fucking mouth.

>>383029401
Game overs aren't bad, just in most(?) post-SMB3 games they were meaningless since they didn't even boot you back to the start forcing you to replay the entire game as punishment. They were pointless as fuck in Super Mario 64 and was not even a punishment since you'd just start your save again seconds after hitting the game over screen.

Unless Mario Odyssey has some kind of 1-life mode or something similar to nuDoom's Ultra Nightmare difficulty, then a game over screen is pointless and other games which don't have a game over screen does punishment far better than Super Mario 64's game over screen (Demon's Souls with its health bar reduction, world tendency change and loss of currency or even something like Payday 2 where your team mates are forced to take and guard a hostage and fight waves of cops one man down during the wave).

how often do you shitty casuals die in mario games of all fucking things

even in lost levels a game over is fucking nothing, you're still doing the level over again or costing yourself an extra ten seconds to do it over again if you 'game over'

big fucking deal you god damn babies

>>383026762
so this is the new nintendo dark souls, hilarious

>>383026762
Game over hasn't been so I is a cc he since at the dad es

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>>383026762
>Implying game overs have been consequential at all in the past 2.5 decades

oh no i die i go back to a checkpoint but if i die 5 more times i go back to a slightly further checkpoint

oh by the way hidden 1-ups are spread liberally throughout the entire stage so getting a game over to begin with is a sign of borderline retardation

When was it ever ballbustingly punishing to get a gameover in any video game? Whoopie I'm back at the title screen, guess I better reload my save and go fight that boss again that's 1 event flag away from the room the save point was in!

You lose money instead
...
YOU sure do ahahahahahahaahahahaahahahahahaah

>>383027010
completely different system in souls

somehow i dont think super mario odyssey is going to have an xp puddle that you need to reach to restore your xp so you can increase your stats, i mean, i might be wrong but i'm willing to bet i'm not

>>383030231
You

>>383026762
We've already seen from the gameplay that you lose coins when you die. What would be the point of a Game Over w/ lives system?

>>383026762
Rayman did the same thing and nobody seemed to care.

>>383030508
When was a Game Over screen actually punishing enough to warrant it's inclusion in a Mario game? Because the last time I remember it being actually punishing was with Super Mario Bros 3.

>>383026762
What's the big deal? When you die you lose 10 coins, which are a big part of the gameplay in Odyssey, so it's still a penalisation you want to avoid. Seems similar to the system in Shovel Knight.

There's no point in game over screens in games like Mario anymore, who isn't just going to hit continue anyway? Based Nintendo forward thinking as usual.

>>383030796
This guy gets it.

>>383026762
Who is this news for? Game overs haven't been a thing for awhile so I don't even know why Nintendo had to even say anything.

>>383027447

>galaxy 2 is hard

Excellent meme

>>383026762
Looks like Nintendo is taking notes from David Cage.

>>383029392
>die and it's back to the beginning of the level

Literally hundreds of fuckloads of games do this and some are even on nintendo systems. Ever play banjo kazooie, for example? One of the kiddiest easiest games which according to /v/ has one of the most punishing death penalties in gaming history judging by this thread? Maybe you should if you havent and you want to prove to stacy once and for all that you're that hardcore gamer she's been lusting for.

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>Mario has death animations like 64-Galaxy
>Death sequences are brief, but trying to play for laughs like 3D World

I don't see the problem. 10 coins in chicken feed to watch Mario die in different ways.

deaths in dota 2 are a pretty big penalty if we want to talk about masculine games here

>>383031007
David Cage and Mario crossover?

I'd buy it.

>In mario 3D world you could get thousands of lives with literally zero effort
>People mad that they are just cutting out the bullshit

>>383030753
>SMB3
>punishing

>>383029062
You can't buy outfits.
So instead of punishing you for sucking, they reward you for not-sucking

>>383031287
Don't act like loading a save in Super Mario 64 due to losing all your lives was more punishing than being made to replay the entire game due to losing all your lives in Super Mario Bros 3.

>>383026762
Do I have to either defend or attack it?

I am pretty surprised I admit. But when was the last time a game over in a Mario game really did anything substantial? I honestly don't see it being that much of a difference.
I'll still probably miss the idea of a game over screen though.

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>>383031142
I was just thinking that. The possibilities are fucking endless, anon. It would be the best worst video game ever made. Swery eat your heart out.

Mario isn't hard and I end any game except for 1/Lost Levels/2 USA with such a surplus of extra lives that the entire concept is negligible to me, and I'd imagine anybody else who has motor functions and isn't a literal child. Don't expose yourself for being bad at Mario of all things, for fuck sake.

>>383028143
>BotW has game over
Botw's Game over was soft as fuck, just booted you to the last save, which couldve been 2 minutes ago.

>>383030521
>>383030521
>>383030521
>>383030521
OH FUCK

SLAY QUEEEEN

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>>383026762
Eh, I'm pretty sure that most people are able to beat the recent Mario games without ever seeing the game over screen anyway. Losing all your your coins actually seems more of a punishment.

>>383030521
My sides ahahaha

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>>383026762


Lets grab hands Mario!

>>383030240
Sorry but that's nonsense and only surface level analysis of game design.

It doesn't matter if you are never likely to see a gameover screen if you're remotely competent. Deaths and game overs are as much about the players perception of challenge and the rewarding feeling of accomplishment of beating that one level you lost five or ten lives on (verses the malaise players get when they realize there is no punishment for loss, so they trial and error any hard parts and don't engage in the game).

Have a live system also allows the game designer to implement a very simple reward system. 1-up mushrooms are great. The play finds a hidden block or completes a small task, give em a 1-up. You literally can't give meaningful rewards for every gameplay challenge, so either you cut the amount of non-core challenges, or you reward with lives, coins, powerups etc. And you'll want as big a variety of reward points as possible because players will grow board of the points or coins you give them fast if that's the only thing you give them.

Removing a gameover screen also gives game developers a chance to be lazy. Not that I'd expect anything noteworthy from a Mario game over screen, but it was a delight to see the gameover for Banjo Kazooie or Donkey Kong 64 and polenty of other games because they put effort into it. Removing a live system adds nothing, it's just cutting a feature for laziness.

In an open world 3D game, what would be the fucking point of a game over?
Breath of the Wild penalizes you for death to the exact same degree as Mario Odyssey but the only reason that didn't cause outcry is because they still call it a game over.

>>383030521
Rekt how can they recover, you gotta screen cap this!

What's the big deal, I don't think I've ever seen a game over screen in a Mario game since World.

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Lack of Gameovers is a plus until they start practically putting you back on the spot you died.

Also a great game with no life-losing/gameovers, hell you dont even take damage but just lose money.

>>383029214
>Ever dying in Super Metroid.

>>383026762
This is literally no different than before, why is anyone acting like this is a big deal?

>>383031906
>Muh failure state in vidya

I see their point as it encourages you to not play like garbage but from a technical standpoint Life systems were archaic garbage that were irritating and time wasting when lives were scarce or absolutely pointless when there were too many lives.

>>383026762
Why the fuck do you need a Game Over screen anyway? It's stupid and pointless. Once all those lives are gone, the game doesn't actually end. Sure you have start from the level and do everything all over again, but that's it. Again, having lives in video games now are pointless. With them it just feels like a pointless collectible item that doesn't DO anything but add up once collected or subtract when you die.

>>383031401
You could continue indefinitely in SMB3.
Your punishment was usually doing every course on the map, give or take a fort.

>>383027881
ah yes, platformers, the famous arcade genre

How the fuck can anyone say that taking game overs out makes the game easier? Punish the player by taking shit away from them is way more difficult. Especially if you respawn where you keep dying so you either have to quit the game or overcome what's been killing you. Game Overs only give the player an option to do something else.

>>383031795
>>383031795
>Removing a live system adds nothing,

Not inherently but it can open up design space so they can add new features. It seems like they're actually making currency a thing. In essence they're shifting priorities for lives to coins. Nothing wrong with that.

The only reason platformers have lifes is to artificially extend the length so no one catches on that there's less than 2 hours worth of content

Game overs didn't matter in Super Mario 64, and I doubt anyone ever game overed in Galaxy.

>>383027659
and Mario isn't? Kill yourself nintenbabby

Standard progression for nintentards.
>Mario 3d world is hot soggy linear shit that no one likes
>"Mario 64 was never good anyway!" (It is)
>Nintendo doesn't host an e3 conference last year
>"E3 is dying, it doesn't matter!" (It isn't)
>Nintendo confirms 3D world is linear shit and Odyssey is an actual 3D mario
>"Yeah, I never liked 3D world!" (you did)
>Nintendo gives you infinite lives in Odyssey
>"Lives are a dated mechanic!" (They aren't)

>>383032245
You sound retarded. What an 'up is down' argument.

>>383032328
Galaxy wasn't a good game hombre

I never thought I'd see the day /v/ defends one of David cages most infamous statements ("game overs are a sign of bad game design"). You nintenkids have finally come full circle.

>>383029062
They take your coins in real life.

>>383028132
Yea it is. Why do you think they're obselite?

>>383031795
>Deaths and game overs are as much about the players perception of challenge and the rewarding feeling of accomplishment of beating that one level you lost five or ten lives on (verses the malaise players get when they realize there is no punishment for loss, so they trial and error any hard parts and don't engage in the game).
Plenty of games give a better sense of challenge and accomplishment without the lackluster game over screen of post-SMB3 Mario games. I'm not arguing that game over screens are inherently problematic, just that Mario games have implemented it in such a dogshit way that it may as well be not in the game.

As for feelings of accomplishment and challenge, the Souls series has no game over screen and has infinite lives. Yet you'd find that critics, fans and developers would say that the games give a feeling of accomplishment when overcoming a boss, especially around certain learning curves like Bell Gargoyles, Ornstein & Smough, Ruins Sentinel, Royal Rat Authority, The Dancer, Pontiff among many others.

>Have a live system also allows the game designer to implement a very simple reward system.
The coins system feeds right into that where you could buy cosmetics which feeds into the completionist mindset. The game does negatively punish you for being bad by taking away resources that are required to truly complete the game and positively reward skillful players for completing stages without losing coins

>Removing a live system adds nothing, it's just cutting a feature for laziness.
I call bullshit, the Souls series largely those of the Dark Souls series used infinite lives as part of the lore and backstory of the game talking about how Undead who have determination would reach their goals and how Undead who lose their purpose would hollow and become mindless. This feeds into metacommentary where hollowing is symbolic of players giving up on the game rather than overcoming the challenge posed by the game/world.

>>383032123
Back in the NES days, everyone was still following arcade design philosophies because that was the norm.
Wasn't until the SNES that you saw more innovative punishment systems, and it certainly wasn't from AAA devs

>>383031795
>You literally can't give meaningful rewards for every gameplay challenge

Objectively false. Players love watching percentages fill up -- collecting things solely for the sake of collecting them is rewarding to the player as long as the game keeps track of how many you've collected.

And, of course, you could simply break a larger reward into many small pieces, such as locking the final level until the player has collected enough things.

How you can say that and then mention DK64, the prime example of giving meaningful rewards for every little thing, is beyond me.

>>383032386
It's painful how true this is. I need to stop caring about the fucking normies on /v/ because they are pathetic.

It's okay when everyone but Nintendo does it.

>>383032761
>Back in the NES days, everyone was still following arcade design philosophies because that was the norm.
yeah that's why zelda and metroid on NES had lives

you're trying too hard to not seem underage, underage

>>383032386
>everybody is one person

>>383032845
Why didn't you complain when Wario Land 2 did this negro

>>383026762
Just like the gold tanuki suit, this further proves Nintendo thinks its audience is a bunch of casual garbage that can't beat even Mario.

>>383026762
In Mario 64 all getting a game over does is send you back outside the castle, forcing you to walk back to the painting. It wasn't exactly the most punishing thing either.

>>383030558
>completely different system
>you die in souls games you lose the currency
>you die in Mario Odyssey you lose the currency
>'different'

>>383026762
>die in mario 64
>kicked out of the level, able to jump back in and try again from the beginning
>game over in mario 64
>kicked back to the title screen, able to load the game back up and try the level from the beginning
Literally no fucking difference. Meanwhile,
>die in Mario Odyssey
>lose money, which is an actual tangible loss rather than just a minor inconvenience
>die in hollow knight
>return to bench, risk losing all the money you had if you don't go back and retrieve it without dying
>die in dark souls
>lose souls, have to go back and retrieve them
>die in shovel knight
>lose money, have to go back and retrieve it without dying or risk losing more
>die in fucking minecraft of all things
>lose all items, have to go back and retrieve them or risk losing them
Game Overs are literally worthless outside of Shmups and other arcade titles where not 1ccing the game usually locks you out of a boss or something.

>>383032123
Why are you being sarcastic when it really is a famous arcade genre?

>>383027097
>>383027096
So odyssey is literally the dark souls of marios

This game isn't in arcades. No point in a game over/1-up system. next

>>383033161
>can't tell the difference between game designed around that as a feature vs Nintendo following a shitty casual trend that every sub-par game is doing lately

Sad. Even the commercials for Wario Land 2 mention the cannot die aspect so don't pretend it wasn't a game designed around that feature in mind.

>>383033174
As someone said years ago, the biggest problem with 3D World is pit deaths. Shit's like giving you a top of the line Super Soaker to hunt bears.

>>383032386
You misspelled Sonygro.

>>383026762
This is not new. You die and you respawn with most likely some items lost. Demon's souls introduced gaming to a better way of doing things.

Does not mean Mario Odyssey will be easy.

>>383033225
And if you were close to getting a star or beating a boss you have lost all that progress and are going to have to do it again, better this time.

What do you THINK the punishment should be? Should the game tell the player to sit in the corner? Delete save files? It's a perfectly fine balance of punishment that adds the the game.

And if you are getting game overs in Mario 64 you SHOULD be told by the game to essentially get gud.

>>383033429
Are you trying to imply that Nintendo had a life system in place and then pull it out so they could copy Dark Souls? Are you dense?

>>383033327
name all those famous arcade platformers popular in the 80s

>>383033656
>implying Demon's Souls invented this
fucking younglings, jesus christ

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>Pretty much every other dev has abandoned life systems.
>No one cares.
>Nintendo drops the life system from a series where you'd have to be braindead to ever drop down into single digit lives.
>NOW people care.

>>383033287
"Currency" in Mario isn't tied to character progression. You don't lose world-specific coins used to buy items either.

>>383033312
>>>383026762 (OP)
> >die in mario 64
> >kicked out of the level, able to jump back in and try again from the beginning
> >game over in mario 64
> >kicked back to the title screen, able to load the game back up and try the level from the beginning

Mario 64 has checkpoints you dummy, if you game over instead of a regular death you lose them.

>People are complaining that taking away Game Overs makes the game too casual
>tfw was almost always at 99 lives while playing the New SMB games

>>383033927
>>Pretty much every other dev has abandoned life systems.
How to spot the Wii U owner

>>383033927

Slippery slope is just a fallacy they said

>>383033752
Anon, dying has the exact same fucking result of starting the level over again. The only difference is that you have to load up the file and walk back to the painting instead of just getting kicked out of the painting. It's the same fucking thing, making having a game over completely worthless.
>>383033981
Fucking where? Last time I played M64, it just boots you out of the painting when you die and you have to restart thenstar again.

>>383033752

>
And if you were close to getting a star or beating a boss you have lost all that progress and are going to have to do it again, better this time.

No, that's the punishment for dying. The punishment for a game over, specifically, is that you are booted back to the start menu and have to waste a few minutes getting back to the painting. The former is good, forcing you to redo challenges to prove you can overcome them all in one go. The latter is a waste of fucking time, as there is no challenge in returning to the start of the world. Mario 64 would be objectively improved without game overs.

>>383033927
It's not okay when Nintendo does it.

>>383027471
in the old 2d mario games game overs happen all the time and are a huge pain to deal with. you can go back like three levels

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>>383033906
It made it popular. Introduced doesn't mean invent you fucking retard.

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>>383029323

>>383034226
When was the last time you got a game over in a 3D Mario game

Game Overs can only be tedious. Are you niggers going to tell me you like having to farm lives in games ? That starting over from the beginning of the game is fun or interesting ?

Doing away with the Game Over system doesn't mean you're doing away with failure in general, it just means less busywork. Case in point: Souls games

>>383033927
>every other big game designer starts putting in shitty DLC
>Nintendo doesn't and cultivates praise for this, fans say their games are better because of this
>Nintendo starts putting in shitty DLC
>fans whine that Nintendo is unfairly blamed when they start following suit

>every other big console maker has paid online
>>Nintendo doesn't and cultivates praise for this, fans say their games are better because of this
>Nintendo starts to make you pay for online
>fans whine that Nintendo is unfairly targeted for this

Wow, it's as if following the trends of other people doing shitty things doesn't excuse you from criticism.

>>383034226
>Removing Game Overs is like adding poop.

Okay fag.

>>383033927
>abandoned life systems
LMAO no

>>383034226
>Removing is adding

>>383034118
Try dying to Bowser or in the lava volcano

>>383034182
Pretty sure super meat boy and to a lesser extent I want to be the guy made that style popular.
Especially since DeS was a fairly quiet release.

Name five modern games that have game overs that doesn't just send you back to a quick save/checkpoint/last save station.

>>383034119
If you waist all your lives on Tick Tock Clock or Rainbow Ride then fuck yeah you should be kicked out of the castle you casual pleb.

>>383034619

You don't even have currency to lose in Meat Boy or IWBTG, you illiterate fuck.

>>383026762
Worked in the rayman games

>>383034720
>currency is the only thing you can lose
Yeah because you totally keep the bandages if you fail.

>>383034707
>games should just shunt you into a five-minute loading screen if you die. I'm an excellent game designer.

>>383034720
>literally admitting you haven't played those games
Come in son, you've embarrassed yourself enough today.

>>383034865
Yeah they should. Games aren't your friend, a forgiving game is a bad game

>>383034947
Might I recommend your local S&M club ? Seems to be more your speed

>>383033896
Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Jr
Mario Bros
Ghouls 'n Goblins
Castlevania
Wonder Boy

>>383034947
There's a difference between challenging and tedious. At this point Game Overs are just a small waste of time instead of an actual challenge. It's almost like if you design the gameplay properly you can make the game difficult without wasting people's time. Woah.

>>383034921

Nigga I got the IWBTG fan game wiki bookmarked and there sure as fuck isn't a Dark Souls style death mechanic.

>>383034786
As someone who has beaten all Rayman games and loved them, no it didn't.

They were great fucking games, but the later 3D games could have been improved with better live system. Especially Rayman 2 and Origins.

Origns and Legends are so easy because of this, only putting to back a few feet most of the time, that you HAVE to collect every single lum to get the completionist run to expedience any sort of challenge.

And I can distinctly remember not even trying at points in Rayman 2 because trying simply didn't matter, like riding Sssssam. That point was almost buggy, and I'd go as far to say the devs used the lack of live system as a crutch in order to not have to balance it correctly.

Still fantastic games overall, despite this.

>>383035104
Good joke

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Funny how nobody threw a titanic shitfit about this sort of thing when Rayman did it. Sounds like you're all of the "IT'S EVIL AND HORRIBLE WHEN NINTENDO DOES IT BUT ANYONE ELSE IS A OKAY!!" crowd.

When Sonic stops using lives are you all going to fartdookie your brains out over it as well?

>>383026762
I'm way more concerned about how the gimmick seems to be aimed at just skipping over platforming sections entirely by flying straight over them.

>>383035297
>wiki
>now it's suddenly a souls mechanic instead of items
You're moving more goalposts than a tornado at a football stadium.

>>383035420
The bullet bills can only move left or right.

>>383029598
>>383030047
Gunplas are a relatively niche hobby and in no danger of becoming dumbed down and casualized in order to try and appeal to the lowest common denominator. Nobody cares what you do in your spare time, if you want to play games with infinite lives and god mode turned on go ahead and knock yourself out. It's when that shit becomes normalized and sets a trend that impacts games they DO care about, and the defense we're given is "you shouldn't care about those games! You just hate change! etc". A

You can't pretend this isn't happening either. We've reached the point where old platformers that literal children were able to beat are now considered too difficult and is being arbitrarily linked to Dark Souls.

>>383035420
Bills can't ascend.

>>383034226
Why should they go through the trouble of designing a game over scene when there's no long term punishment for it? You get so many extra lives in Mario games, they ought to make an achievement system just so getting a game over is an accomplishment.

EAD Tokyo has fresh blood that looks for these trends and it isn't the same guys in suits and post-war born kids that ate cup ramen while fiddling with Famicom and Super Famicom tools in their mid 20 to late 30s. It's people ranging from my generation to those who graduated high school in 2009 more savvy about games back then and games now being the pragmatic voices bringing Nintendo down to earth about design choices that probably shouldn't have a grandfather clause not because it's trendy to follow others but because it makes more sense for modern gaming tastes. It's a practical decision. Not saying it's a good decision or a bad one, but given that coins are sometimes used for currency, I'm sure there's incentive for the player to get better in the end.

>>383034538
>removing a good thing is totally different than adding a bad thing
ok

>>383035414
Rayman Origns and Legends were only following the tradition set by Rayman 2 and Hoodlum Havik.

Those games I'm pretty sure I don't have to tell you came out before 4chan was around.

And yeah, if Ubisoft came out and said they were going to make a Rayman 1 style game (ala Nintendo making a Mario 64 style game) and removed the lives because it was "unnecessary difficulty" it would be fucking shit.

>>383035578
>>383035664
Yes, and? The e3 footage still showed them flying right over big platforming sections.

>>383035414
when the new NSMB comes out and still has lives, will you be defending it and saying "Y-YEAH, I ALWAYS THOUGHT NO LIVES IN SMO WAS BULLSHIT"

>>383026762
Defend getting a game over in a mario game to begin with?
How shit are you at video games, OP?

>>383035770
Thy showed you flying to a part Mario couldn't access without it.

>>383026762
Lives were always just a hold over from quarter sucking arcade days.

Im glad its over

>>383026762
I don't particularly mind it because it has a completely different goal in mind with Odyssey than most other Mario games. It prioritizes exploration above all else, so getting rid of game overs makes sense. Besides, it would more or less be difficult to enforce anyway. There's checkpoints everywhere, so game overs would just be pointless and trivial. However, I don't hate the concept of game overs and I hope they don't get rid of them altogether for later Mario games.

>>383035556
That's only two goalposts potentially. Should have said, "You're moving goalposts more than a tornado at a football stadium".

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>>383034431
Pretty much any punishment for failure that inhibits progress can only be tedious. Games shouldn't punish you for failure, if you die too often in the Souls games you shouldn't lose souls because having to go around and farm souls you lost is tedious busywork

Losing can only be tedious.

>>383031142
No, Mario doesn't need to turn into an interactive movie series. It's bad enough that most Mario fans on the web prefer the RPGs over the platformers.

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>>383026762
Lives in 3D Mario games are fucking worthless.
>Oh no, I died 4 times, now I get kicked back to the opening section of the HUB and have to spend maybe 20 second walking back to where I was.

>>383026762
>people are more likely to argue against being sent to the beginning of the game

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>>383035920
Literally a meme opinion started by "game journalists" who were salty that games were too hard.

>>383036495
And nintendies that base their opinions on defending Nintendo

>>383035587
>Gunplas are a relatively niche hobby and in no danger of becoming dumbed down and casualized in order to try and appeal to the lowest common denominator.
I'm pretty sure that was his point. If you want some ball busting challenge in your video games their are still plenty of options. In fact I'd argue it's easier now than ever to get your hands on these types of games. They might be niche but by my count we aren't losing them. More and more people are playing games. Some of them want to be babied. Who cares? If they want the challenge they can find it. This thread is about an open world Mario game. Of course it's going to be easy. This problem of casuals taking over the market is a perception problem.

>>383036124
I want to be rewarded to failure too. Why can't the game just play itself like a movie =(

>>383036717
Just use super guide ;^)

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>>383035707
Why should they go through the trouble of implementing long term punishments in the game to begin with? Or any punishment at all for that matter? It's not pragmatic.

>it makes more sense for modern gaming tastes. It's a practical decision.

Newer games are story driven. Older games were just about the gameplay, if you couldn't beat it...fuck you try again.

Older games like Crash (and it's not even the oldest or hardest) gave you a set of skills to beat the level. They didn't really give a shit about the story, or other ways to beat it. It was git gud, or fuck off.

People unironically describe older action games from as "artificially lengthened" because you need to practice to beat them. It's not "pragmatic" or "practical" to improve your skills. This is the world we live in now.

>>383036495
>Literally a meme opinion started by "game journalists" who were salty that games were too hard.
It was the same reason that arcades had them, making the game longer.

SMB 1 is not actually that long a game, but forcing the player to start over inflates its length

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What's the point of game overs, really? I mean, even in other Mario games, what happens to you when you game over? You have to start the level over. Same exact shit that happens if you lose just one life.
Game overs are mostly in games today, because they're a carry-over from arcades. There are some games that have game overs that make sense, but they are usually straight up arcade games, or feature some kind of gauntlet structure.
A big part of the game is running around exploring levels and grabbing shit and the punishment for dying in Odyssey is, as far as I know, losing your coins and having the game send you back to the checkpoint. With how open some of the areas can be, I'd say that's a very fitting punishment. Making you go through the entire level because you died is not challenging at all, it's just boring since you'll run past everything you've already explored to get to where you were.

>>383028114
why did you post Boost Guardian's theme?

>>383036495
But if the game are too easy then wouldn't that also mean that lives redundant?

Lives in 3D Mario games have always been pointless yet harmless inclusions, the only game where they served any kind of purpose was 64 since the game didn't autosave. I'm surprised they didn't remove them with Galaxy.

>>383032386
>shit that never happened

>>383036937
Hmmm, And yet, somehow the "artificial length" b-b-b-benefited the game?!?

Whaa how? How could this be one of the best selling and highest rated games of all time.

I'm pretty sure like you, I would prefer the game to be about 9 minutes, and unable to die at all. Just a brisk walk left to right for several screens with optional enemy engagement.

>>383037004
kek

>>383035737
>Removing an outdated thing
yes

I'll wait for fat fuck sterling to laugh at your face.

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>>383036980
>What's the point of game overs, really?
to punish you for being a little fucking pussy

>>383036124
Losing souls in a souls game is not where difficulty lies. Same with losing lives in Megaman. It's the complexity and depth of the system that makes it challenging. These systems are just their to reinvest you. Game overs are a shitty way to pull this off. Maybe if you faggots didn't throw a fit everytime a devs tries something new we'd have a better system.

>>383028673
>Most modern games are shit

id hate to be you. never being able to enjoy things.

>>383037296
>removing a thing is a feature

>>383037227
>Hmmm, And yet, somehow the "artificial length" b-b-b-benefited the game?!?
It made people think they got more out of their money, there is literally no other benefit.

>I'm pretty sure like you, I would prefer the game to be about 9 minutes, and unable to die at all. Just a brisk walk left to right for several screens with optional enemy engagement.

How about instead of being lazy and making you repeat shit, you just make a longer game?

>>383027434
>italian
>white

>>383035792
No, because the lives system is outdated and needs to go. You can still make the game as hard as you want, shit you can make it even harder since the player can retry infinite times until they can figure out how to move past the trouble spots.

>>383037296
>its outated because we changed it and change is automatically good
no

>>383037512
Its obviously outdated since a save system is in the game that completely negates the intended effect of the game over screen.

>>383033968
But you do, you can buy shit for those coins.

>>383037421
Back to plebbit, child

>>383036980
What's the point of any repercussions in single player games? Punishment in games are mostly just a carry-over from arcades.

>>383037446
>removing things can only be a bad thing
Okay

>>383037446
Who said anything about features? It's an improvement. Really what did a game over do in mario 64 or sunshine? It's just a waste of time that's been removed, that's it. It's not praise worthy, just a good decision.

>>383037421
I literally have a backlog of games to finish that are fun as fuck and going to take me years to complete.

Because surprisingly games don't magically become unfun just because new more shitty things have been released.

>>383036980
If there are no conditions for loss, then who cares? If I know for a fact that simply putting in the time will net me a definate win, then why play a game at all?

And FYI, game over in classic Mario games, like smb3 forced you to restart the world, not level. Losing a life forced you to retry the whole level.

I know that to you, in this age if infinite retries that bring you back on the spot you died, and checkpoints every 3 feet with autosaves this may sound unforgivable or impossible to cope with. But honestly such things force you to get better or play easy mode.

I'm as good as I am be a use of things like limited continues and having to load save files you pampered children will never be this good, because you just want to win and not have to work for it.

>>383026762
no games over likely meaning no dated lives system that just forces you to restar level instead of at a check point. you can still die.

>>383037767
>Really what did a game over do in mario 64 or sunshine
That's been asked several times now and they can't answer.
Don't bother

>>383037512
Not automatically, but factually speaking it is. Unless you really loved being transported all the way back to the courtyard in 64 or the beginning plaza in Sunshine.

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>>383032386
>Mario 3d world is hot soggy linear shit that no one likes
Untrue. Most people liked the game, even on release and well after it. Some didn't though.

>"Mario 64 was never good anyway!" (It is)
People who say this are a small minority of Mario purists. Mario 64 still remains one of the most beloved games by more or less everyone.

>"E3 is dying, it doesn't matter!" (It isn't)
E3 has always been kind of shit, but ever since at least 2010, it's been severe shit. It's one giant commercial marathon. Sure, the hype it generates is fun, but the actual content is always disappointment and lies. Nintendo doing their own presentation changes nothing and just means there won't be cringey live performances like that terrible 2009 conference of theirs.

>"Yeah, I never liked 3D world!" (you did)
So, now you're contradicting your first point. But, I loved it. I also love how Odyssey is looking.

>"Lives are a dated mechanic!" (They aren't)
They kind of are, depending on the game. In the 2D Mario games that have checkpoints halfway in, or in SM64 where you can only save after grabbing a star they make sense. In Galaxy they generally don't matter. If you lose a life, you start off in the same spot as you would had you lost all of them, or just exited and re-entered the level. This doesn't apply to the more linear levels though.
There is a reason why most games don't have lives.

Either way, you're a massive faggot and I'm probably an even bigger one for replying.

>>383036805
>Why should they go through the trouble of implementing long term punishments in the game to begin with? Or any punishment at all for that matter?

It incentivizes skill growth, that's why. There's still a failure system in place, it's just one that doesn't set in immediately until the player realizes they need to hold on to their coins if they want real completion.

>Newer games are story driven. Older games were just about the gameplay, if you couldn't beat it...fuck you try again.

Older games were about gameplay on paper. Some games like Kid Kool had horrible game design in terms of jump physics and platforming mechanics. Then you have Athena with hit detection that stacks unfairly. Dragon Buster was somewhat playable but again, sticky controls and highly punishing obstacles that are unfavorable for the player to avert because the game wasn't fully balanced in terms of controls or enemy movement patterns.

It's easy to look back at older games like they were made of true grit when looking at the shining examples, but really in the early days most developers just kind of threw shit against the wall without much thought. Things were okay in the mid-90s to a point but good design philosophy wasn't always a guarantee.

you can only give this post a (You) if you havent had a game over in any mario game

>>383037868
>If there are no conditions for loss
Nobody is proposing this.

>>383037868
>game overs are the only conditions for loss

>>383033968
I'm pretty sure it is in odyssey. The coins are used to buy clothing items which give mario different abilities which is technically character progression

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>>383026762
A casual game for a casual audience. No one buys Mario games because they want a challenge. Speedrunners might, but that's a very small number of people.

>>383037480
Okay summer child. How would you recommend Nitnendo "lengthen" game SMB1 for the NES without repeating content, the technological powerhouse that it is.

You're fucking retarded, you know that?

I think lives still work for certain games but who the FUCK gets a game over in 3D Mario

>>383027096
What about the gigantic "YOU DIED" screen?
Just because it doesn't literally say "game over" doesn't mean it's not a game over screen.

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>>383026762

And what's wrong with it exactly?

The difficulty in mario games nowadays are the actual Platforming levels, not lives

Lives have been meaningless ever since NSMB where it's too easy to get them

They have nothing to do with difficulty

>>383038134
The same way they did for SMB3 son.

>>383037393
Losing a life and sending you back already does that. Did you not read the post?

>>383037702
Slippery slope fallacy. Not an argument.

>>383037868
>If there are no conditions for loss
There clearly are. Getting hit by an enemy without any life power left, falling into a bottomless pit, drowning etc. Those are clearly losing conditions. I'm referring to game overs, not solely losing a life.

>And FYI, game over in classic Mario games, like smb3 forced you to restart the world, not level. Losing a life forced you to retry the whole level.
Yes, which is exactly why I made sure to point out that game overs in 2D Mario games make a lot more sense. Playing a linear platforming challenge over isn't the same as playing an open, non-linear exploration level over.
If you're not going to bother reading through and spending at least a few seconds of thoughts about your arguments, don't even bother. Calling other people children when you can barely read through a post is pathetic.

>>383038232

That a regular death screen anon where you have to restart at your last checkpoint

A game over means you start from the very beginning that isn't a checkpoint

>>383037680
Not with the ones you lose. There are different types of coins in Odyssey.

>>383037945
PUNISHING YOU FOR SUCKING IS HOW WE KEEP NORMIES FROM RUINING GAMING EVEN MORE YOU GAME JOURNALIST APOLOGIST

>>383038134
Even in NES terms, there are much longer games.
Try again, maybe get a brain first though

>>383038232
Because you don't start over from the beginning of the game after a certain amount of you died screens

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>ITT: Fucking Morons who are confusing Game Overs with losing a life

Are you guys fucking retarded?

>>383038409
The game already does that by taking away your coins and sending you back.
Do you also want them to delete your save file and piss in your face or something? What's the point? Having a more severe punishment in a game like Mario Odyssey is redundant.

>>383026762
There weren't really any game overs in super mario 64 either. All they did was make you run from the front yard to where you left off.

>>383038548
YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT

>>383038175
>who the FUCK gets a game over in 3D Mario
People who really need to improve/concentrate/engage more with the game.

Instead Nintendo would prefer to give them a Golden Tanuki suit or just not have game overs at all so players don't improve, and quit when the game gets harder (while also reducing the overall difficulty of the games they make so people are less likely to quit because they're bad at it)

>>383038409
I can't tell if this is a response or not

>>383038353
>Slippery slope fallacy. Not an argument.
This in itself is Not an argument. Just calling it a fallacy doesn't refute anything, especially when the slippery slope has been proven to be real >>383033927

So again, what's the point of punishing the player for failure in single player games? Punishment in games are mostly just a carry-over from arcades.

>>383038341
That was only possible because of hardware upgrades.
>>383038427
SMB is probably the biggest game without a Memory Management Controller for the NES.

>>383026762
>Lose all lives
>GAME OVER
>"Well I guess it's over, time to go trade it in"

>>383038593
Exactly. The punishment for game overs in SM64 were the exact same shit as losing just one life, except it took more time. There was no challenge involved. You just ran to the level again. That's it.

What would having "lives" even do, in a game like this?

We have moved on past the dark ages of forcing you to play the entire game all over again if you die a few times.

>>383038409
Even with cruise control you still need to steer anon.

>>383037508
So you will be defending it, good to know.

>>383038341
>>383038427
So your suggestion is Nintendo should have held off making any video games until they could make more advanced microchips that they could put into the game cartridges themselves to give them a technological boost? Like SMB3

Fucking retarded, you don't know anything about game design OR technology.

>>383038075
Yes.because not being able to beat a boss and ragequitting is more akin to being a loser. Not losing in the game.
And like it or not "mission failed" ,"you died" and "try again" count as game over screens.

And the rest of my statements still stand. So try harder to prove me wrong fag.

Like it or not, videogames are still games. Games need win and loss conditions. If you can win simply by trying and staying with it, and all loss hoists upon you is reloading from a nearby checkpoint, then how is that loss at all?

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>>383026762

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>>383027461
wrong
If you are collecting the 100 coins star and you die, then you have to start over until you do it right, also I like being able to die in videogames, when you cant die its stupid, that means zero effort in killing bosses, zero effort in beating a level. Why would you like something like that?

>>383038696
If the player is not punished in any way for failure, they have no incentive to try harder and they will never improve. If we end up with players who are incompetent, they will never buy games that are even remotely challenging or interesting. It's detrimental for the player and the games industry. If there is absolutely no consequences to failure, it loses a lot of what makes it a game.
Now, if there was an optional ''Super Baby Mode'' or something where you can just breeze through the game like it's nothing, I wouldn't really mind too much. I still think it's a shame that developers are so afraid of forcing players to challenge themselves, but it's optional at least.

>>383038696
this

game overs only worked in old games because the game was so short that forcing you to restart was not a big deal

imagine if you died in Dark Souls and had to start the entire game over from scratch

yeah, that'd be bullshit and From would have gone bankrupt immediately

The entire concept of "lives" and "game overs" is just a relic of the days of quarter-sucking arcade games.

>>383039081
>also I like being able to die in videogames, when you cant die its stupid, that means zero effort in killing bosses, zero effort in beating a level. Why would you like something like that?
Good thing this discussion isn't about dying in video games.

>>383038932
Isn't that the exact opposite of what he just said though? Are you genuinely retarded?

>>383039081
>If you are collecting the 100 coins star and you die, then you have to start over until you do it right
You can save right when you are collecting the star. Or, are you talking about just dying? Because that's not necessarily game overing.

>when you cant die its stupid, that means zero effort in killing bosses, zero effort in beating a level.
This is not true. There can still be a challenge in defeating a boss or beating a level, even if you can't die. You still have to play the game. I don't condone it, but that's the truth.

>>383036709
>More and more people are playing games. Some of them want to be babied. Who cares?
Anyone who has ever had their favorite franchise ruined by companies trying to "broaden their audience" and enforcing design decisions to appeal to casuals at the expense of people who supported said franchise.
>This thread is about an open world Mario game. Of course it's going to be easy.
Older Mario games were hardcore games for casuals, much like tetris. Each attract casual players, and each have depths of high-level play.
>This problem of casuals taking over the market is a perception problem.
No, it's a demonstrable problem. Then again /v/ is overrun by dipshits who play mobile gatchashit so its no suprised there are so many casual apologists on here.

>>383039116
Forcing the player to restart the entire game is not going to help them learn and improve, it's just going to make them begrudgingly slog their way through things they've already beaten.

>>383039026

This tbqh senpai

>>383039232
Not picking up on social queues is a sign of autism

>>383039015
>And like it or not "mission failed" ,"you died" and "try again" count as game over screens.
If you define it like that, Odyssey propably also contains game overs.

They explicitly mean the Mario game over, which is dinstinct from just losing a life.

>>383039015
>dying is the same thing as game over

You keep saying this but it doesn't make it more true, dumbass. Who are you trying to convince with this line of argument? It's complete nonsense so you're not trying to convince anyone who disagrees with you. Do you even believe it yourself? Honestly I don't think so.

>>383039279
Yeah, I agree. I don't think game overs are a good part of game design. Having to replay a level is a completely different story though.

>>383039015
>Like it or not, videogames are still games. Games need win and loss conditions. If you can win simply by trying and staying with it, and all loss hoists upon you is reloading from a nearby checkpoint, then how is that loss at all?

So in your mind Dark Souls isn't a "real game". Interesting

>>383039015
>And the rest of my statements still stand
They would if you understood what a game over actually is.
And no "mission failed" and so on doesn't have the same effect as a game over the former acting as a regular lost life sending you back to the most recent save or checkpoint and the latter essentially resetting the game.

>>383039364
Oh sorry, it's just I didn't want to call you autistic because that's a buzzword now. Thanks for saying it's okay.

To be fair, you can die a lot on Galaxy 2's harder levels, but the game literally throws lives at you.

>>383039172
>imagine if you died in Dark Souls and had to start the entire game over from scratch

Nigga stop being a casual that's how I beat Dark Souls and Terraria

>>383039116
>If the player is not punished in any way for failure, they have no incentive to try harder and they will never improve. If we end up with players who are incompetent, they will never buy games that are even remotely challenging or interesting.

Who cares? Most modern gamers don't find challenging games all that interesting (although they love games that appear and have a reputation for being challenging), improvement is a tedious process for these people. If anything making games less skill-focused is beneficial for the player (since they can enjoy games without investing time in skill building) and beneficial for the games industry that stands to make more money by appealing to a wider audience.

The definition of what a game is has changed a lot over time. Most of what you think "makes it a game" are just archaic hold overs from arcades.

>>383039714
>Most modern gamers don't find challenging games all that interesting
I think this is wrong. DaS showed that a game can be fairly challenging and successful among the mainstream audience as well.
Hell, the new Crash remakes are pretty hard and people seem to love them still.

>>383039396
Not really. Having to replay parts of a level they've already been through is annoying for a lot of people. It's not good game design.

>>383026762
It's target is literally everyone. They made game that adult and kids may enjoy. Study game design so you maybe will ever undestand this.

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I don't see what the big deal is. Even back on the N64, Banjo-Kazooie had lives, while Banjo-Tooie did not. It didn't take away any enjoyment from Banjo-Tooie for me.

>>383039925
Agreed. No one could ever enjoy a Mario game in the past 30 years because they were too hard. Now, mario will finally find success.

>>383026932
FPBP

It was so retarded even having lives in 64. When you die you go back to the hub world outside the level you died in. If you run out of lives and gameover you go back to the hub world, but the only difference is you span outside and have the slight inconvenience of having to walk to the level you died in. It really felt like they had not even played the game any time they put 1ups in a level. they are the crappiest incentive/reward in the game.

The only reasons I can see to have lives in a game is if there is a threat of a loss of progress, like in the earlier Super Mario games having to go back to the first level in the world when you run out. The only reason is if you have high scores or something like that that gets affected when you run out of them, and so lives are a means to preserve that.

And none of you whiny tits would say a word if it wasn't Nintendo doing it.

>>383039920
I hate to break it to you but challenge is not directly enjoyable.

You fail, you get annoyed. You improve, you beat it, you feel reward.

Go back to school and learn some basic shit.

>>383039276
>Anyone who has ever had their favorite franchise ruined by companies trying to "broaden their audience"
Okay you can take that up with EA or whatever. Not the casuals. You're attacking a symptom instead of the problem.

>Older Mario games were hardcore games for casuals, much like tetris.
I would hesitate to call either of those games hardcore. Especially Tetris. Most of this can be attributed to arcades dying off. Japan still has plenty of these games. Again you attacking a symptom and not the problem.
>No, it's a demonstrable problem
Nope, you're attributing a mix of complicated economic and social factors into "muh casuals killing the market"

>>383037149
Try harder

>Nintendo skips E3 2016
https://boards.fireden.net/v/search/text/%22e3%20is%20irrelevant%22/order/asc/
>The E3 is irrelevant. That's why Nintendo doesn't bother with it anymore.
>Because it's becoming less and less relevant every year, social media and places like Youtube make it easier and cheaper to get information out to customers. Lots of publishers, not just Nintendo, have been scaling back their presence at E3, it's not worth the cost anymore.
>(in response to "why is nintendo not revealing anything at e3") e3 is irrelevant, anon
>Companies like Nintendo are dropping out for good reason and it's companies nobody gives a shit about that's still wasting time for E3 when nobody important is there anymore.
>And all the game sites will link to the direct and everyone will watch it anyway. E3 is irrelevant

Meanwhile, E3 2017 was the largest E3 ever.

Notice how it's the exact same droning you see in this thread?

>>383039920
Not having any challenge or punishment for failing is not good game design. People being frustrated isn't necessarily a bad thing. Look at horror games. Those sure as hell aren't supposed to be fun playing. They're meant to be scary.
If the developer's intentions are to challenge the player and the player fails the challenge, the developer has not failed at game design.

>>383040169
Hmmm yes, I wouldn't say anything about something I have low expectations in. Really makes you stank...

>>383037957
>It incentivizes skill growth, that's why. There's still a failure system in place

Why should there be? Again it's not really pragmatic

>it's just one that doesn't set in immediately until the player realizes they need to hold on to their coins if they want real completion.

This is arguably an even worse "punishment" than one that's immediately apparent to the player, but even if it wasn't you're not losing the same coins that are used to buy items.

>Older games were about gameplay on paper. Some games like Kid Kool had horrible game design in terms of jump physics and platforming mechanics. Then you have Athena with hit detection that stacks unfairly. Dragon Buster was somewhat playable but again, sticky controls and highly punishing obstacles that are unfavorable for the player to avert because the game wasn't fully balanced in terms of controls or enemy movement patterns.

None of this has to do with being about gameplay as a design philosophy and everything to do with poorly designed mechanics and lack of balance. There's a reason why most of these games are forgotten by most players, and it's not because they were somehow overly focused gameplay.

>really in the early days most developers just kind of threw shit against the wall without much thought

And now developers don't have to put any thought into it at all since gameplay isn't as important in modern games as the "experience" is. Whether that be experiencing a story or pretending you're skilled in a game that gives you infinite lives and doesn't' judge you.

>SM64
>game over
>sent back to title screen
>have to select file
>start from outside the castle
>backtrack back to the level you were doing

It was nothing but pointless tedium.

>>383040668
This
I'm just trying to play the game why does it need to waste my time because I forgot to farm a few extra lives

>>383040582
I think you're putting too much stock on something that's been little more of a deterrent than 20 seconds of fiddling between the title screen and restarting your save. Lives haven't been much punishment by the time damn near every platformer implemented a save function.