Realistic post-apocalyptic weapons

>>55022867

We'd likely revert to flintlock weapons, as the ammunition is just simple lead balls in paper cartridges. Repeating firearms aren't really practical without percussion-sensitive primers like mercury fulminate, which are almost certainly outside of an average Joe's ability to synthesize. A fairly organized faction with access to books and lab supplies might be able to, though.

>>55023005
Would black powder be easy enough to manufacture for any fire arms? I would think it would require some sort of access to materials that aren't easily acquired.

>>55023043
Black powder I super easy to make lad.

>>55023043
>manure
>charcoal
>sulphur
if you can get your hands on that you can make gunpowder, basically, any community with a garden centre has everything they need

>>55023043
Just make sure you set down the rule that all piss is never wasted and collected in the community you setup. Sulfur would be about the hardest thing to find and it is not really rare.

>>55023174
sulphur's also the ingredient you need the least of, about 11% by weight if memory serves

>>55023043
Things you need to make black powder:
1) excrement
2) sulfer
3) charcoal

You use the excrement to make potassium nitrate, mix with sulfur and charcoal, and you've got black powder

>>55023005
You can make primers from match sticks dude.

And there is enough ammo around for a long time.

>>55023252
You've got about the worst black powder you can possibly make, something that wouldn't propel the lid off a five gallon bucket assuming you could get it to light in the first place. Your best bet for finding KNO3 is from a hardware store. It's called stump remover.

>>55023102
What process would you use to achieve air float particle size of charcoal without flash igniting it and blowing yourself up?

>>55022867
Guns. Post-apocalypses where everyone falls apart into roving bandit gangs are implausible. Realistically people will band together and make new societies, and the existing supply of weapons will last long enough for them to get their infrastructure back together and make new ammo and spare parts.

>I mean clearly, for a while, you'd have guns being pretty prevalent. And certain popular guns have large supplies of surplus ammo and parts, so they would continue to exist for a while. But without manufacturing and industrial gathering of raw materials, the supplies would dwindle.
Given the stockpiles of ammo in military armouries, warehouses, and the prevalence of reloading (at least in America) you would most likely see people get to the level where they can produce new (if subpar) ammunition before they run out.

>>55023336
you add water before grinding the mixture together and dry it afterwards

>>55023367
So close, yet so far.

>>55023260
Match heads, not match sticks. They have to be strike anywhere matches

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>>55022867
>sharpened pipe?
Car parts, the steel on them is superior to a lot of medieval weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/videos
Channel about primitive technology

https://youtu.be/aElI3Doa8mE
https://youtu.be/X-I5RjodS80
Can't stress how easy to make and practical slings are. They are very cost-effective and can launch many kinds of projectiles. This includes staff slings.

The other projectile coming back could be the javelin. Against an unarmored human, a fire-hardened wooden javelin is enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle
https://youtu.be/juOQ9Ij3G1c
If gunpowder is a problem, there is this, but it requires considerable skill and/or machining. Probably easier to make gunpowder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMmr_g7Oc30
How a repeating musket works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpzrIL5p16U
This shows some level of firearm artesanal production is viable, but mining raw materials and making metal parts out of them is another thing that I can't really say. It probably would be half crafting new stuff, half recycling pre-apocalyptic objects. The end results would very wildly in looks, quality, mechanism and century. Some would be made of pipes.

https://youtu.be/XT0frOVpm-Y

I guess crossbows would be more common than bows because they are easier to learn, can be kept cocked and if there is no local archery tradition to derive from. Even a common bow fixed to a wooden stock already helps, like chinese did with nomad composite bows for their troops to use. Bolts are also easier to craft than arrows.

I imagine it depends on the apocalypse. That said, I can easily see descendents of the AK being used for a long ass time as the core mechanisms for a weapon. Primer can be made though its a notch and likely not seen outside some serious powers.this all said muzzle loading weapons likely will be the most common at the end of th day.

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>>55022867
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhGCRIQnCA
Guns are really, really not hard to make, and even then, the hardest part is a good magazine.
Reloading spent cases is also already a hobby that a lot of people take part in, and humanity wouldn't run out of bullets, powders, and primers for a long time. Sure, it might be fun to try to make a setting where technology exists but is rare mixed with old fashioned medieval fighting, but it just isn't realistic. You can't get rid of knowledge that easily.

>>55023751
Ak's will not function with black powder. Low peak pressure, lots of smoke, and lots of fouling will all contribute to auto loading weapons dying a quick death once the industrial processes necessary to producing smokeless go away. You are much more likely to see a Henry lever action or a mossberg pump shotgun going strong after the apocalypse than an AK. There are a few auto loading pistols that can handle black powder, namely ones chambered in .45 acp. Good luck with anything else, and I pray for your sake you went with stainless.

>>55023929
You over estimate the availability of powders and primers and don't take into account the level of manufacturing that churn out ammunition by the millions of rounds daily. Ammunition manufacturers do not waste money by making more ammo than they can sell. Stores do not stock more product than they can move. The only people stockpiling ammo are preppers and militaries. In a world ending calamity, that ammunition is going to be expended quickly. This is likely a world war event that manages to drag every nation into a simultaneous ground war. An event large enough to kill industry will absolutely kill knowledge. How do you think the dark ages happened? Gun powder and primers will be some of the first expendables depleted as they require specialized manufacturing to produce. Home mode alternatives are possible, but not of the quality required to function modern automatics.

>>55024063
>An event large enough to kill industry will absolutely kill knowledge
Not a chance, these days. We have these wonderful things called 'printed textbooks' which I am told contain this 'knowledge' of which you speak.

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>>55022867
As long as you have 5.56x45mm and stamping presses you're good to go

>>55024256
There were books before the dark ages, friendo. When 90% of the population is exterminated and humanity is facing an existential threat, knowledge will be lost. When survival means foraging, hunting, and forming tribal societies, we will be lucky if literacy rates don't drop to less than 1 percent of the surviving population. Imagine the number of orphans whose parents have been killed due to what ever event. Imagine the number of people who will grow up having never opened a book because why would their guardian take the time out of fighting for their lives to open one up? There are parents RIGHT NOW who don't read to their children and society is perfectly fine.

This is all disregarding the fact that outside of large cities, libraries are failing. Hard copy books have been on the decline for years, especially reference material. There will be entire populations whose only access to books will be a 1200 square foot building with more children's picture books than detailed instructions on how to cold forge, harden, ream, and rifle a barrel. I challenge you to go to any city or suburb with less than 50,000 people and find a single book on manufacturing ANYTHING with enough detail to create a complete product within 10 miles.

>>55024294
You forgot the bolt, trigger group, springs, and barrel. None of those can be stamped. Good luck with any accuracy past ten yards sending 5.56 down a smooth bore, a round already known for being incredibly under stable and requiring an extremely fast twist rate. Also, have fun blowing your hand off when your out of spec cast bolt shears a locking lug and the 62,000 psi peak pressure of a 5.56 round detonates essential in your hand.

>>55022867
between groups of survivors? whatever weapons they were lucky enough to find. they'll straggle around with a pipe and maybe a gun if they have one. if you start with bullets, improvising a gun wouldn't be too hard (pipe shotguns, zips, the like), but manufacturing ammo would be the harder issue, and a bad round will ruin your gun. if you really had to make a ranged weapon, a crossbow would probably be the first one that comes to mind if you don't have ammo

at the scale of factions once you have your food/shelter situation sorted out you have more time to focus on other things,like defense/medicine. i'd say it's safe to assume that an organized faction has attracted somewhat skilled people inside it that could assist in such (chemists, survivalists, machinists, paramedics, carpenters, anyone that can tell the less skilled people what they need to do)

>>55024364
10% of the population is over 700 million people.
And what apocalypse? You're making assumptions on the outcome of something that has not happened yet and automatically assuming everyone is going to end up a mindless brain-dead savage just because you don't like how other people do things
>We will be lucky if literacy rates don't drop to less than 1 percent of the surviving population
According to whom? You? You're making up the specifics of this so called apocalypse as you go along and all you're gonna end up doing is moving the goalpost to try to counter whatever someone says.
>outside of large cities, libraries are failing.
>[citation needed]
And even then, I can find something even better- people who already know how to do those things, because they're not Starbucks employees, office drones, or the type who wears pants around the ankles.
The majority of your post is you bitching about people because you think you should be able to dictate whether they read to their children, or because you think that they're just dumb inbred hicks for whatever reason.

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>>55023043
Gunpowder is easy to make, but isn't as high yield as modern chemical cocktails needed for proper bullets.
That isn't the bottleneck.
Bottleneck in bullet production isn't chemicals, but casings. Casings require a lot of work to make, and once you got em, the work to assemble them with the explosive charge is a lot of work.

>>55023354
>>55023348
You would think so. But then you realize that 1000 men, with 6 shot weapons, would spend at the least 1.200.000 bullets for a year of active gun shooting.
Gunpowder storages will run dry for any larger mass mobilization, so unless the civilization breaker is nuclear war decimating infrastructure, population is high enough to spend billions of bullets within just a few short years.

>>55024256
>Printed textbooks
>Textbook has schematics, but is designed for use with CNC machines
>Finding CNC machines post global civilization
Plz

>>55024256
>>55024730


Yeah, solid high carbon steel just turns to dust when people don't touch it often, right?

High quality weaponry would dissapear in ten years, durable guns would last for a half of a century, and I'd imagine that in the event of some supervirus killing a high proportion of people--we'd stay at a wild-west level of weapon tech for quite a while since it doesn't require a power grid

>>55024730
The lake city missouri plant can produce over 4M rounds of small arms per day, with a yearly output of over a billion rounds. I wouldn;t put it past the US military to have at least 5 billion rounds stored "just in case" around the country at bases and such. That's not even counting state police forces, militias, private producers, etc.

Funfact people, rifled weapons have existed since the 1400s, if an apocalypse occurs and mankind no longer can rely on factories, it's going to be become a valuable skill to understand how to manufacture things we take for granted, firearms included. We also have all sorts of fancy machines and tools to help people make shit these tools, like lathes, presses and CNC machines. People will manufacture rifled barrels, sears, bolts, everything you need for a firearm, you just won't get the crazy high quality ultra precise sub 0.5 MOA barrels like we have these days.

>>55024925
Metal suffers fatigue and rust.
Simple parts can be manifactured so long you can salvage and recycle existing metal.
So you get to the point where there is a difference between the durable good, the guns with the good ammo, and post war reproductions that is a lot worse in every single way.
Its also why roving bandit bands are unlikely to exist: They will run out of ammo at some point,

>>55025083
What you mention is a yield of 4m rounds per day. Of different calibers.
With a material storage of maybe a week, so once the apocalyptic event happens: Maybe at best, the plant will be able to produce 30 million rounds, and then run out of supplies.
But there is a even bigger issue: Scarcity doesn't hit until there is sign of scarcity, which means storages of ammo will be severely dented before scarcity is recognized, and rationing or training is changed to deal with the issue. So effective ammo storages might be 1/4 of what the actual numbers are. Thats also assuming things like Suppressive Fire has to go, to have ammo scarcity.

>>55025150
>Metal suffers fatigue and rust
So you mean your apocalypse scenario you keep throwing around as truth is well over 200 years in the future then? Because functioning antique weapons from the 1800s and before are still around and work quite well. Modern firearms would last just as long, if not longer thanks to our wonderful metallurgical processes. Just look at all the surplus Mosin Nagants we have, rifles that have been sitting in storage for the better part of 60-70 years at this point and function perfectly. Firearms don't magically decay unless they're in adverse conditions, and there are massive, massive stock piles of guns all around the world controlled by the military and sometimes private collectors.

Unless the collapse is brought about by some magical nonsense bullshit that kills 99% of people and only leaves retards alive, like your standard zombie apocalypse, society isn't going to utterly collapse to a point where you only have wandering scavengers left. At worst, it'll collapse to town communities and city states. And having a bigger community means you can have specialized workers and a lot more knowledge retained. Specialized workers mean that there'll absolutely be gunsmiths and people making ammo. It'll be a a slower process and you'll probably see barely any half or fully automatic guns, but the concept of the gun is too good and too easy to replicate to ever go away again.

>>55025416
Fully automatic firearms are actually easier to make than semi-automatic weapons. You'll definitely see a lot of full auto only machine guns, just like you'll see plenty of manual action weapons. Self loading select fire weapons will be rare, and probably highly prized.

>>55022867
>>55024256
>>55024364


I think, depending on how hard we fall, we may want to keep in mind how we will lead our descendants to not just the answers, but the process of how we came to those answers. That way they aren't just empirically copying what we left behind, but they learn why and it works. That way they can advance without being held back by the idea "This is the only way to do it" and will be able to advance and adapt with new knowledge.

>>55025448
I don't think you'd see them for difficulty of manifacture, but because of ammo scarcity. If a dude is making your ammo by hand, you don't want to go and blow through a few hundred rounds in a minute.

global stockpiles of firearms and ammunition are ridiculously huge

and it's not like a cartridge is some kind of advanced technology either

>>55025448
That's only true with cased ammunition. Brass WILL wear out and fuck steel case. Black powder is stupid easy to produce though, we'd probly fall back to somewhere near civil-war era levels if infrastructure never recovers.

>>55025502
Well I mean, depends so much on the type of apocalypse that it's hard to say why. But even with scarcity I can see people doing it anyways, because people can be dumb and because of the scare factor and CQB capabilities of a weapon. In a likely apocalypse scenario, there will probably be some form of production line to manufacture cartridges if not outright semi automated machinery. So the bottle neck would probably be non-fouling powder and primers, both of which would probably be manufactured in similarly large amounts.

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>>55025242
Stuff will endure, if:
1. Parts are replaced
2. Maintenance is lacquer is applied properly
3. They aren't used until they are broken

So what will happen is the crossroad between durable and non durable designs, as spare parts get scarce or the quality degrades from lack of Industrial Mass Refined Steel.
But that isn't the kicker.
Maintenance is not the kicker either.

The kicker is that there is a finite amount of bullets, that requires Industrial Scale Production to have its quality and power. And bullets are spent on a massive scale, and most nations doesn't have a years supply of the needed tools for war.
So ideally, you recycle the casings, because their quality would be superior. But that brings us to the next bottleneck: Gunpowder isn't complex, but high power gunpowder IS complex. So you suddenly go from 500J bullets, to 400J, maybe even with backsides such as gunpowder fog.
But once the casings can't be recycled anymore, you run into another issue:
You might not be able to make high power larger rounds, because the casings are no longer of the quality needed to withstand use.

But remember: The idea is "guns are scarce in post apocalyptica". City states allows that to some lesser degree, because it limits trade and industrial scale expanse.
So you can't field impressive guns due limited access to metals, chemicals and scale of industry.
And every population decimation makes the problem worse.
I get that underestimating how insane Industrialization is, is a good normal meme, but seriously, there is many things that are not possible without industrialization and scale of production.

>>55025536
Well yeah, but the likelihood of such a massively damaged and non recovering infrastructure is really low, and as much as you say "Fuck steel case" now, in a desperate scenario like the apocalypse you know people are gonna use the fuck out of it anyways. Not to mention it's not like the tools to manufacture new brass would suddenly up and vanish.

>>55025561
>parts are replaced
>maintenance and "lacquer"
You're straight up fucking wrong here, parts only need to be replaced if they're broken, which is a moot point, and any weapon in storage is already prepped for long term storage. Even then, weapons without much preparation for long term storage can last, since they're built to be resistant to wear thanks to processes like bluing. In normal use, yes, you need to maintain your firearm every so often, but that's not gonna stop thanks to apocalypse. And why do you act like nobody is gonna make small scale factories to help produce shit, infrastructure doesn't straight up disappear or become unsalvagable if it's busted, people will build it back up and you know damn well if some thing's important they're going to ease the process for making it.

>>55025584
Brass metal stock would though, as would most means to transport it. Also I'd say that simpler actions are roughly equal in difficulty to produce. Pump/lever/etc mechanisms might be easier to produce than a sturdy automatic with decreased metallurgy and precision milling options. Big heavy hand-operated block vs. roller or something is obvious but blowback.... well thats simple but still depends on reliable standardized ammo which depends on reliable standardized powder AND metals and that's gonna be tough to make NEW.

I think most of these things would end up together though, not like replacing it. Obviously there's going to be stockpiles that could last centuries but anyone could shit out a working single-shot gun in a garage with scrap metal and some stuff like breech guns are an obvious minimal improvement.

>>55024256
>printed textbooks
>>55024364
>There were books before the dark ages, friendo.
You mean there were incunabulae literally five hundred years before the western invention of movable type? Holy shit, alert the historians!

>>55025689
Metallurgy might go away, but we'd still have precision milling. Lathes and CNC machines also don't disappear. I can agree on the brass being difficult to source, which is probably why we'd move to steel case. The biggest problem with making repeaters wasn't really metallurgy, but rather the manufacturing of the more intricate parts and the lack of cased ammunition.

>>55025762
Yeah I guess you could even pot metal one off recycled cases. Not sure what's available for primers but I'm sure there's something if you've got the powder. Hell even electric ignition isn't out of the question in post-apoc. Repurposed piezo-lighter/oven-starter sparkers are always plentiful.

As for intricate parts they're not all heavy load bearing shit and you can always just make everything heavier & bulkier.

Realistically post-apocalypse wouldn't kill off industrial production. It would just set it back to pre-computer less automated time for a while. Then again not all CNC machines and the like would just disappear, so communities having electricity and those would be still manufacturing modern quality firearms. Then again whole breakdown of society and everything reverting to barbarism in post-apoc settings is inherently unrealistic itself, but it's fun, so there's nothing wrong with that. In fact realistic post-apoc would be quite boring (would be more akin to 1984 dystopias and/or rural 19th century living depending on setting) compared to fantasies of Mad Max barbarians on wheels and the likd.

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>>55023260
Good luck finding matches 10+ years after a total societal collapse. Particular enough of them to manufacture a reasonable amount of ammunition with.

Maybe if large societies survive, but if it's your Walking Dead style apocalypse where no groups over 100 people survived, matches are going to be gone rapidly, both from people using them because your average first worlder has zero idea how to make a fire without them and due to warehouses and stores being busted open and looted, even if the looters somehow left behind whole pallets of matches, being in an unsealed warehouse for a couple of winters will pretty much guarantee they'll be worthless.

I agree it'd mainly be black powder with pre-collapse centrefire shit being restricted to prestige weapons for warlords and their bodyguards. Average Joe will have a shitty flintlock/matchlock knocked up in a improvised forge.

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>>55025665
>parts only need to be replaced if they're broken
Or exposed to rust. Or metal fatigue.
> And why do you act like nobody is gonna make small scale factories to help produce shit
My point, which is the core point: Scale and quality decreases without access to industrial production.


I.E Modern ammo was invented in the early 1800s. But without industrial production, it couldn't be produced of a significant scale, and was mostly a dead beat until industrial scale was applied to it.
So once Industrial Production goes, you don't have a effective manner to replicate Percussion Cap Bullets.
So:
1. Lower quantity
2. Weaker gunpowder
3. Weaker casings
Sure, pre industrial gunpowder is impressive, but its no WW1 permanent artillery fire.

>>55024730
>1000 man standing army.
>During an apocalypse.

The amount of people who will be regularly using guns will be a much smaller percentage of the population, and the overall population of any community will be much smaller than it is now. A standing army of 1000 riflemen would be an unimaginable luxury until significant re-industrialization has occurred.

War in this society would probably be a handful of assholes with guns, fighting on behalf of feudal lords who have horded more guns and ammo than they know what to do with. The vast majority of the population will be farmers.

Anybody who tries to turn too many of those farmers into riflemen too quickly will have a famine on their hands, more devastating than any enemy invasion. And anybody who tries to train these men part time as reservists will quickly run out of ammo. Gun hoarders will be sitting on their hordes, protecting the local farmers from other gun hoarders in exchange for food, and sending their most aggressive sons to die in a vain attempt to steal somebody else's ammo horde. Stockpiles of Semi automatic weapons can sustain feudalism for much longer than homemade black powder.

>>55026066
>rust
>fatigue
It's a real good thing they're extremely resistant to those sort of things. You know that an antique weapon is worth the most if it's got 100% original parts correct? Even then, fatigue doesn't make a gun worthless, just a little bit less reliable if it's something like recoil spring or the sear. And fine, I'll conceded without industrial production, it'd be extremely difficult, but not impossible to manufacture cased ammo. But it's difficult to justify that all industrialization is completely gone in the apocalypse. Maybe immediately after the apocalypse, but in that case ammo and weapon stockpiles are gonna be full to the brim.

>>55026087
>A standing army of 1000 riflemen would be an unimaginable luxury
In what manner?
If premodern armies is to go by, they are going to be segregated by quality.
So maybe 100 pre war rifles.
200-300 worn/repaired pre war rifles
And the rest is using post war rifles, with all the reduction in quality you get from not industrialization.
And thats for 10.000, thats not a big army for a host of city states.

>>55026057
Zombie (or viruses in general) post-apoc is a whole different beast than your usual post-apoc because there's active apocalypse going on killing people and preventing rebuilding. In a normal (nuclear, meteorite, supervolcano etc.) you wouldn't have that problem and large societies are likely to survive. Hell, in such cases there's likely entire countries who only got after effects (radiation, climate change) of the apocalypse rather than being directly affected.

>>55026087
I should add, that this is what most (judging by land area) of post-apocalyptic america would look like. Results may vary by country and state. American gun hoarders are planning on becoming Feudal lords. Not all of them will succeed, but I expect the political situation to stabilize around them before they run out of ammo and get stabbed to death with pitchforks by angry farmers.

>>55026167
Premodern armies are limited by food. Those city states will be dependent on agricultural techniques that might not survive the apocalypse, particularly if it includes some sort of environmental catastrophe as well. Assuming any form of agriculture is still possible, it's probably going to be a LOT less efficient than we are used to. 10,000 might be very large for a post apocalyptic city state. And such a city state would probably have less than 100 full time warriors, each of which would probably have the pick of the litter when it comes to pre-collapse weapons, and the combined ammo hordes of thousands of idiots who thought bullets were more important than canned food.

If the farmers have any weapons for self defense at all, it's because 100 of the most aggressive men (and maybe some really butch women) with the best guns still in existence allow them to keep them. They probably also don't have much time to practice using them very well, and if they leave their homes for longer than a single season, everybody starves to death. That's feudalism. Fewer men doing more fighting while everyone else is more concerned with making more food until the population gets large enough to support other forms of specialization.

>>55026155
I personally own a shotgun from 1905 and it still shoots modern ammo just fine. I also own couple of 1890s revolvers that still shoot fine too with black powder ammo. Guns are pretty durable stuff really.

>>55026354
>If the farmers have any weapons for self defense at all
Please don't confuse laborses, farmlords, and farmers.
And please don't think that "firearms are the great equalizer", because thats also a stupid meme. Every "estate" basically where forced to have a few firearms in common law, as early as 1500.
> And such a city state would probably have less than 100 full time warriors
100? Try like 10-15 at most. Even USA today doesn't really have that many "full time warriors", since there is only so so many generals you can have.
Segregation by class/heritage is also a good topic, since no mass production means no standardization for quality firearms. The lower class of a fielded army might not even use chemically fueled guns, but Air Rifles, but they will still use guns.

You also don't showcase that you understand what training is, or the mentality that fosters training via conscription. Or how training via Air Guns.
Or how waging wars work, since they are a permanent facet of feudalism.
You understand that farming is stupidly manpower intensive, but not how mortality rates forces that into stable no export of manpower.

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>>55022867

>>55024730
>casings
The current world supply of casings would last a fucking long time with reloading. They're also hardly magic to make.

>>55023929
>le fredumb murica xD
boy I'm glad redditors know this joke never got stale after almost a decade

>>55025060
>durable guns would last for a half of a century
I have two firearms that are over 100 years old that I shoot regularly. Steel frame guns last a very, very long time.

>>55026728
>The current world supply of casings would last a fucking long time with reloading.
No recycle? Maybe 2 and a half year of Global Warfare. Not a long time.
You underestimate how insane Mass Production is, for a war drug.

>>55026769
If the apocalypse only involves people shooting each other, it's not an apocalypse. Supply won't even be interrupted.

The kind of thing that leads to a "post-apocalypse" scenario most likely won't leave lots of people around to use the monster stockpiles of bullets. The survivors will have everything they need for quite a while.

>>55026354
>American gun hoarders are planning on becoming Feudal lords.
That's a big ol' generalization there pal.

>>55024364
>not having the ar/k/ive on a laptop in a watertight lead box

>>55026653
You raise a lot of good points, but I'm not sure you understand the point I was making. I was saying wars would be common, but waged by a very small minority of the population, who would therefore have access to the best weapons. I'm not here to showcase anything, only make a very specific point.

When I say full time warriors, I mean people who train more intensively than marksmanship practice every Sunday, and who can afford to be away from home for longer than a season without causing a famine. When i said 100 out of 10,000 I was making a very sloppy estimate because I really have no idea how efficient agriculture will be after an unspecified Apocalypse. I do however know that this kind of (Sociopath who is mostly good with weapons and not much else) person makes up less than 10% of almost any society that has developed some form of agriculture. These people are almost always dependent on the other roughly 90% of society in order to not starve.

Now, the "Guy who doesn't want to fight but can if he has to" is also important. But I don't think they will have access to semi-automatic weapons post Apocalypse, nor do I think there is much strategic value in sending them on offensive wars. It's mostly industrial society that puts them on the front lines.

>>55026845
This is one of the points i have been trying to make. America has a lot of guns and bullets, and an Apocalypse would destroy humans faster than it would destroy guns. The Limiting factor of any gun war will be manpower not firepower.

>>55026882
The ones who don't might not live long enough to say otherwise. An apocalypse is a great generalizer, or in this case feudelizer. Same diff really.

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Without talk of firearms, let's say that that knowledge has been lost, and we have to revert back to more primitive ways: how many people in the world would be able to blacksmith well enough to make swords, chainmail, spears, etc.?

>>55027165
an extremely small number of people. though acting as if the knowledge to make firearms is lost some how, it's extremely likely that the knowledge for blacksmithing is lost along with it as well.

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>>55027058
???
You might field 1% or 1 permille or your population as a army. A even smaller number of that, is going to be actual 100% full time soldiers. The rest will basically be war conscripts, using it as a chance to climb the social ladder.

So basically: Weapons usually get divided into 3 qualities:
1. Higher quality, which in this case is pre war or higher end special made copies
2. Normal quality, which would be partial armor set, stuff like what was found in Mass Graves at Wisby. Since this setting is gunsentric, that might include pre war ammo(using sparsly for special occasions), personal rifles, or anything
3. Army issues gear. The sign of a strong state, is being able to field a army, supplying it with gear. One of Feudalisms core selling point, is moving the burden of supply from State to Knight(and his gigantic retinue of pages), generally boosting quality.
And city states is really different from Feudal state, in the former the idea is often that overclass has to buy their entire warchest to enter the army, except for things like shields. Where conscripts doesn't get that.
And City States ability to field better masses of higher quality gear, is the reason states like Rome was able to expand massively, outside of a political goal of expansion.


>>55027165
Once the cat is out of the bag, it can't go back in.
Worst case, if supplies of bullets dwindle, it might not be feasible to field a army with guns. Maybe you have to settle for one regiment with it.
But the cat isn't the gun, its smaller scale artillery. Which do more damage than guns ever can do.

>>55022867
Guns would still be in use, even if current ammo stores are used up and infrastructure for modern manufacturing can't be maintained you don't really need that much tech to make bullets.
Anyone with the power and resources will still use guns, though maybe more conservatively, while bows and crossbows will be more common with those that get edged out in the race to consolidate remaining resources and tech.
For some time there will probably be hoards of larpers and edge-meisters with shitty replica or antique melee weapons that they have no idea how to use and once they're weeded out the weapons that aren't destroyed from misuse might stay in circulation for awhile as weapons of opportunity alongside improvised weapons for those with nothing better. Anyone with the organization will probably just make cheap and effective weapons like spears though.
I could also imagine slings making a resurgence to equip some who might otherwise not be capable combatants but again anyone with the organization will equip their best with the fruits of our technological progress.

>>55027381
bows and crossbows wouldn't even be used, because with modern tooling it'd be way easier to make blackpowder muzzle loaders, you can even make them rifled a lot easier than you could back in the 17th and 18th centuries.

>>55027435
Its not really theoretically or mechanically difficult to rifle barrels. It's always going to be labor/machinery intensive though.

>>55027352
Even without air rifles, I expect guns to be shootable for much longer than cars will be derivable. The really unrealistic part of post-apoc is it's car centrism. Where is the oil coming from? People can horde bullets, but oil dosn't really store well. Stockpiles will be gone almost overnight if production ends, even after mass dieoffs. Mad max was an allegory for the 1970s energy crisis, not a completely accurate depiction of an actual apocalypse.

>>55027564
i dunno man, cars will run on lots of things besides oil. they'll run like shit and be flimsy but so will everything else. Even electrics aren't completely unreasonable.

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>>55022867
Make a set of this and you're good to go

>>55027593
Most modern cars are super dependent on maintenance from specific companies which would not survive an apocalypse.

Although, it would be really interesting to see Musk suddenly making his cars EMP proof and including a "nuclear warfare defense mode." where the car can function without ever having to phone home to any of musk's companies. The mode could even be activated by the car losing contact with cell networks. That's a feature people might pay for, and only slightly more absurd than the "bio-weapon defense mode" (which makes a lot of sense if you have to drive around in china, where musk wants to sell his cars)

>>55022867

OK just because I'm responding to OP doesn't mean I didn't read the thread. As several people have noted, it depends in large part on the nature of the apocalyptic event. How much infrastructure is destroyed? How many people? Which people? How much warning do we get? A total collapse back to savagery is going to require some serious assumptions.

I think it's more fruitful to say, "OK, here's the setting I *want*. So what kind of apocalypse leads to that?" There are scenarios that lead to pretty much any kind of world you want. Obviously fantastic/magical stuff requires fantasy to be injected, but I think even then you can have something that feels right.

I think guns are the least of your problems. Within a couple years, gasoline runs out not just because it's used but because it has a very poor shelf life. Alcohol, bio-diesel and other fuels will be ok. But cars w/that are pretty rare and conversion may not be available in time.

Good batteries have a shelf-life as well. Wind turbines will be degraded by storms, solar by time. Electonics and especially IT equipment has a shelf-life, too, and I guarantee you that most of that stuff can't be re-manufactured.

Literacy might last much longer than you think. We have very widespread literacy now, and there will be time to pass it on. Eventually it will decline, but it will take several generations. STEM will go away sooner, especially engineering types seen as having no immediate use. Books will be preserved, but the techniques they teach will become very hard to use without a teacher.

So you can imagine a scenario playing out in phases. There's the immediate catastrophe and attempts to survive that. Then there's a few years of aftermath as people try to build survival infrastructure before they starve or are murdered. Warlordism. Then finally things stabilize on a long slow decline as things are lost but survival is no longer in doubt. Then eventually things reverse and you have a renaissance.

>>55022867
Aren't bullets reasonably easy make?
I know for a fact that there are pakistani smiths who make bullets out of their small home-industry furnaces.
In terms of having acess to guns I would presume that there would still be a large enough amount left after the apocalypse to make it possible for local warlords to field armies. As long as you take reasonable care of the weapon it should be useable for decades if not centuries.

Bows will probably not be used in any meaningful way as bowmaking is actually a quite complex/skillfull skill whereas the mechanics and material necessities for making a rifle are much easier to come by.
Spears would definitly be made however as they are incredibly versatile things.

>>55025107

>We also have all sorts of fancy machines and tools to help people make shit these tools, like lathes, presses and CNC machines.

Where the fuck will you get replacement parts or even electricity for those machines you dumb fuck? One tiny part breaks or fries, and you're done

Best thing I can think of is going to a museum and pick up some flint lock rifles

>>55027732
They certainly wouldn't survive in their current form but a lot of that bullshit can be stripped out once you don't have a federal highway authority or EPA to answer to.
>have shitty lead-waste and toxic acid battery
>have electric motor on wheels
>car goes when you give it electrics
Yes it would still run like shit but it's emp proof.

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>>55024063
>his is likely a world war event that manages to drag every nation into a simultaneous ground war.

Dude if they don't go full nuclear you just described a world FLOATING in ammo and well stocked production facilities. After WW2 weapons were around for decades. My grandmas brother was often catched playing with guns.

>>55023477
This nigga right here. There's a reason why slings were used for thousands of years.

>>55025416
This. Guns and ammo will be around the last things produced on an industrial level.

That shit is super easy produce and a barebone rail network isn't that hard to maintain either.

You will need this guns for when the modern agricultural system collapses...

>>55022867
it would probably be mostly like mad max for a while with most people having guns of some kind or another...guns would slowly become rarer until you had 1800s type shit going on...a mix of sword and arrow combat with black powder weapons...only groups with the means to make/maintain modern guns and those able to buy would have them eventually...say about...100/150 years

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>>55027777
Checked and "bullets" are the simplest shit ever. Lead will melt over a campfire and you pour it into a mold and maybe polish off some sprue and you're done. CASINGS are a little tougher with some stamping and brazing. PRIMERS are incredibly delicate snowflake chemicals that explode when you hit them hard enough. They're probly going to be harder to recreate from dirt farmers than powder. POWDER is really easy since you can make it out of human waste in its worst form and in higher forms still pretty easy with nitric acid and cellulose being really really really common on earth.

Keeping all of that exactly the same for every shot is probably where you'll have the most trouble. Also
>pakistani gunsmith
pic related

>>55026087

>Stockpiles of Semi automatic weapons can sustain feudalism for much longer than homemade black powder.

This tbqh. I once answered in a thread here about a realistic emergence of feudalism.

Take your scenario, add in old military ranks developing into a hereditary noble rank system and boom you have 300-400 years of neo-feudalism.

Than a friggin plague hits. the vlaue of labour increases and the commoners start getting uppity and more innovative and the whole cycle starts again.

>>55027435
I mean literally the outcasts of the new order.
Whoever establishes local organisation first will try to consolidate arms and ammo and gun shortages will most practically affect those who are outsiders.
People will still hold on to guns and find storages that others didn't for quite some time but those against prevailing power might have to abandon resources and equipment in the face of overwhelming force and can suffer the loss less.

Not everyone has the knowledge to make guns especially with less than modern ideal equipment and those people with be targets for conversion/capture or elimination.

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>>55026325
Well in a Z-apoc you have to assume that the government would take measures to assure a continued production of ammo for as long as possible with huge stockpiling efforts.

The military would be able to keep a few selected factories running for a while.

They even have fucking gun smiths in Afghanistan under really harsh and poor circumstances. They would develop shit like bren guns and keep on going for years.

>>55027785
Electricity is simple, it's called a generator, it's also not unfeasible for some larger community to get some form of powergrid back up and running. Even then you can smith a barrel with some metal. Then you'll be able to scavenge replacement parts from the places that have them right now or use the exact same machine to manufacture your own replacement part.

>>55028021
It's actually really really bad in the US. They don't have a force enough to project halfway across their own country. You'd have to keep your rail lines and your factory towns (including some which have already been shut down by EPA) completely manned. Bridges across even the tiniest rivers would be massively vulnerable.

Shit does not look good for the government in those prolonged power struggley situations.

>>55027777
checked

>>55026882

>implying you have to do that intentionally

Thats just how things would work after a decade or two. People would flock to preppers/military/police for protection in exchange for food. Close your eyes skip a few hundred years and suddenly you have dudes singing about how they want to bang their lieges wife but are to pious for that.

>>55026845
This. If we are talking real post-apoc and not desperate total war starvation and scarcity of guns won't be issues for a few decades.

A real post apoc like in the movies would need a ridiculous deadly virus for example. If even 5% survive you still have a shitton of people. Probably enough to maintain a decent early industrial standard that quickly rises again.

>>55027593
This. You would have weird coal/wood
driven cargo trucks for example.

>>55027761
>I think guns are the least of your problems. Within a couple years, gasoline runs out not just because it's used but because it has a very poor shelf life. Alcohol, bio-diesel and other fuels will be ok. But cars w/that are pretty rare and conversion may not be available in time.

If you don't have people knowing how to make a car run on wood/coal/bio-ethanol you have an apocalypse type where scarcity isn't an issue because so many people are dead and the few survivors have more stuff than they could ever use. Even without cars. They would drive around a year or two and then just walk.

>>55027761
>especially engineering types seen as having no immediate use
I completely disagree, engineers are vital for warfare throughout history from siege engineers to logistics and would be even more important in the post-apocalypse to survey and salvage infrastructure and dangerous ruins.

The prospect of engineering being abandoned is especially silly given its role in modern militaries who will also be some of those most in a position to establish a new order.

>>55028212
I agree. Engineers are pretty much an elite in modern day military, or at the very least valued specialists.

That's like saying doctors don't have an immediate value.

>>55028094

Well if we don't have a completely space bats unrealistic Z-apoc scenario the government has some time to prepare and some time where the country isn't fully overrun.

So they would probably quickly establish a safe communication central for the POTUS and the JCS and other measures to keep the Army, Navy, National Guards and Intelligence agencies running.

Then they would start taking the nuclear power plants of the grid and they would start securing the nuclear weapons.

After that they would start stockpiling military ammunition and they would start securing that stockpiles.

Then they would declare certain industries vital to national security (nationalizing them, when the crisis worsens further). In the process they would start stockpiling raw materials near the factories (with short supply routes). The national guard would be called in and a state of emergency would be declared.

If the situation deteriorates even further militias would be raised as auxiliary forces and they would start stockpiling weapons of civilians for the military and the militias.

With that you have an awful lot of guns and ammo, at least enough to keep them going for a few years. At some point they would start using Ammo in a very conservative fashion. Probably preferred use of civilian models etc.

>>55028675
They'd certainly try. Engineers and artillery though are what's going to settle any of it. If you're going back to feudal shit then it's all about the territory you can hold with whatever limited means you have. You don't have massive mobile armies to just throw around and conquer shit but without a reserve or resupply you can get seiged out super fast anyway.

>>55024364
That's fucking nonsense and you know it.

Given that it's impossible to turn your head without seeing printed text, there's no reason scavengers in the apocalypse would forget how to read.

>>55028094
>including some which have already been shut down by EPA
Oh come on, especially factories have largely shut down because of changing economics, not the epa.

>>55028880
>changing economics
Why is it cheaper to run a factory in China than in the United States?

>>55028820
Really they'd be better off just creating the exact scenario they want with some sort of "transported to another world" shit combined with mass amnesia, probably with plot convenient recalled memories of exactly whatever tech he wants.

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>>55028743

>Engineers and artillery though are what's going to settle any of it.

They would degenerate to WW1/2 level artillery at some point but otherwise you are right.

Feudalism with guns actually would have somewhat changed warfare. Area denial is even easier leading to the type of wars they have in Africa.

>>55028820
Ehh don't give him so much attention. These kind of people have dumb ideas about the post apoc.

I mean in a pulpy game I would let that slide but I was under impression where trying to get a more realistic feel for the scenario we are discussing here.

There was a thread discussing a breakdown of America, when people started talking about all of the convicts forming raider gangs and the cartel conquering California with the Hells Angels i was out of there.

I just prefer the gritty but realistic stuff. In that regard the last of us was actually good for a mainstream game.

Military zones and independent settlements made a lot of sense for the scenario.

>>55028880
No, there's literal chemical-spill territory that have gotten entire towns quarantined since the 70s. Mostly from lead refinery runoff which is explicitly part of ammo production.

>>55028904

>muh China

Senpai please. Environmental standards aren't the catastrophic issue murica has.

>fucking retarded unions narrowing down what a worker does leading to inflexibility
>high wages
>investments in research to low
>infrastructure is crumbling leading to over reliance on expensive trucking

Germany actually has well functioning industry and environmental standards here are at least on par if not higher than in the US.

Some measure of corporatism (google Betriebsräte if interested), conservative wage policies and a system that leads to more educated workers does the trick against low wage sweat shops.

>>55028904
Multiple reasons, government subsidies/manipulation, significantly lower wages, in some ways better integration of human and automated assembly lines which is also influenced by their dragnet of foreign tech secrets.

Do you seriously think big bad epa fines are the only thing driving factories elsewhere? Many factories would rather just take the fine even going on for enough years that it would be cheaper to just improve.
I mean there was a whole fad of buying up companies and sending them overseas as a quick way to make money that even big name politicians like romney made bank off of.

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>>55029033
>tfw you'll never get to systematically depopulate daeschland

>>55028952
Yes, there are those but they were shut down for major health hazards. Some local warlord might not care but larger organizations that are invested in their populace won't want them sick and literally retarded with kids and lead so they'll still try to limit or contain runoff and use non-contaminated source sites.

Anyway, especially with his response about china I assume that anon was talking about the epa shutting down factories more in the "damn regulations and epa fines sending all our factories to foreigners" way. The cost of regulation and fines is only a small part of that whole pile of shit.

>>55029222

>tfw when burgers have to resort to cheap race baiting while they are on track to be the hispanic states of america

>Some local warlord might not care but larger organizations that are invested in their populace won't want them sick and literally retarded with kids and lead so they'll still try to limit or contain runoff and use non-contaminated source sites.

>implying the warlord wouldn't accept the awesome muties

Well even if they were forced to use such sites they could always use forced labour/slaves.

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>>55029280
*forgot the face

>>55029254
second part of >>55029280
was meant for

>>55028094
>including some which have already been shut down by EPA

Can't have a country if earth can't sustain human life. China is also realizing this too by the way. It's just people who profit off of carbon trying to maintain their way of life. The north american technocracy will either switch to more sustainable forms of industry, or it will be destroyed by our mother earth. She's not a loving human mother. She's quite content to kill her children if they misbehave. Like all good parents however, she wants to create something strong enough to replace her. As long as something on earth evolves into a class II civilization, she'll be content.

But, Isn't it funny how post-apocalyptic narratives become more popular the more Co2 we put into our atmosphere? Perhaps the planet mind is trying to tell us something? She wants us to switch to renewable energy, or go back to being semi-nomadic megafauna killers (terrestrial mega-fauna being unlikely to ever build rockets or nuclear power, and the next biggest source of Co2 emissions after humanity.)

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>>55029280
>point out that krauts ruin everything they touch
>"y-you're not w-white!!"

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>>55029353

>ruin everything they touch
>from an anglo

That's rich for a change. And with Antifa and the other larpers now killing each other and cops I wouldn't scream Weimar...

Anyways now fuck off with your /his/ bullshit, if you don't want to believe that muricas industrial malaise is very much home made that's on you buddy.

>>55029280
>implying the warlord wouldn't accept the awesome muties
>le mutant wasteland thunderdome XD
If you wanna do some gonzo post apoc sci-fantasy that's one thing but people were talking about semi-realistic predictions.
Lead contamination does not turn children into badass mutants it just mentally retards them making them less useful or even potentially a burden.

I would agree that in a post apoc world slaves and prisoners might be used for dangerous labour but it's still not worth the investment to get a shut down factory at a contaminated site up and running instead of just going for better-maintained ones unless you make some convoluted scenario to necessitate it or you're a who cares warlord king of bobland who can't access the better stuff but is too insignificant for the big players to bother wiping out yet and then you probably wouldn't have the necessary resources to reopen a factory.

>>55029624

>If you wanna do some gonzo post apoc sci-fantasy that's one thing but people were talking about semi-realistic predictions.
Lead contamination does not turn children into badass mutants it just mentally retards them making them less useful or even potentially a burden.

I wasn't serious my man.

>I would agree that in a post apoc world slaves and prisoners might be used for dangerous labour but it's still not worth the investment to get a shut down factory at a contaminated site up and running instead of just going for better-maintained ones unless you make some convoluted scenario to necessitate it or you're a who cares warlord king of bobland who can't access the better stuff but is too insignificant for the big players to bother wiping out yet and then you probably wouldn't have the necessary resources to reopen a factory.

I agree but I could see a scarcity forcing outsider factions to actually go for such contaminated sites. You don't even need a convoluted scenario. The best spots are either taken, not reachable or unfortunately not usable to a nearby nuclear reactor that had a little accident...

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>>55029441
>MOMENT MAL
*collects bread dole*
>DU SAGT
*invades rome*
>MOMENT MAL
*destroys europe*
>WIR SIND
*lowers test levels*
>WIE KAISER
*gets run over by a truck*
>UND SCHEISE
*gets arrested for 'hate speech'*

>>55029338
It was kinda funny when they reduced smog for the olympics and people started to really realise the lines they'd been given about it just being fog were bullshit.

It's also kind of a catch 22 thing. They want to improve their country and increase the wealth of their people for which bringing in the factories has been great but as the wealth increases the growing middle class begins to want clean water and air and food and free speech and so on.
It's a bit similar to the situation for both china and north korea, or any nation that sufficiently censors the internet and media. If they restrict information too much then they fall behind competitively but inevitably the more free information they allow the more subversive ideas spread too.

>>55029741

>president has the vocabulary of a 5 year old
>you can't even use a sentence that makes sense with google translator and the spelling is wrong too

Just stop and leave the thread sweety.

>>55029762
China also will pay a hefty price for their rapid industrial growth. They are comparable to the soviets even if they would never admit that and Russia still is fucked because the soviets had so little regard for environmental standards.

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>>55029797
>germans attempt to "improve" existing architecture

>>55023336
Modern gunpowder is fall different from less advanced black powder. do you really think the techniques that were used by the 10th century Chinese are outside of the reach of a post-apocalyptic society?

>>55029705
All the functional non-contaminated spots being destroyed/contaminated is kinda convoluted and like I said if you're just too small a player to access functional infrastructure that others have then you probably don't have the resources to get a shut down contaminated factory up and running.

Of course this is all straying away from the initial point of protesting the characterization that epa overreach has somehow undermined the hypothetical US post apoc infrastructure.

>>55029797
Oh yeah crazy shit like the pop up cities that are falling apart before they can even fill them and all the landslides and erosion/floods from big fast projects without the proper environmental oversight.

Russia has that whole dry sea/lake thing that produces duststorms contaminated with toxic pesticides that spread the damage and desertification and they're even still using the pesticides in the surrounding communities because they're too poor to do anything else and the government won't help.

>>55029876
>All the functional non-contaminated spots being destroyed/contaminated is kinda convoluted

They don't need to be. You just need a strong faction preventing their use.

"The reconstruction Authority lead by glorious Admiral Johnson views this town as their rightful territory..."

>Of course this is all straying away from the initial point of protesting the characterization that epa overreach has somehow undermined the hypothetical US post apoc infrastructure.

Is that really warranting further discussion? The dude obviously just sperged and spewed some propaganda.

>>55029987
Or nuclear subs contaminating large land scapes.

China in general is a planned economy even if they try to make it seem different. They are going to hit a wall at some point in the future where their extensive growth fails and the west takes over because we have sustainable growth fueled by technological innovation.

>>55027165

I could see warlords and elite soldiers wearing Kevlar-reinforced chainmail, and maybe the larger men wearing platemail. I imagine swords, clubs, spears, etc. would be the weapon to get a weapon, given to conscripts to increase their chances of killing and looting better-armed enemies.

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>>55022867
I'm not sure you understand the sheer number of bullets on planet earth. And the number of people that understand how to maintain firearms. Not sure what you mean by awhile but if a group of people could find power enough bullets will be assured for centuries to come.

>>55029873
It's arguably easier to do gunpowder than blackpowder.

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>guns and ammunition are hard to manufacture
You are like a little baby
Watch this

>>55030603
>watch this
>still image
???

>>55022867
Mostly depends on 3 factors to answer your question;

1: How hard did shit hit the fan? Is it yer standard post apoc where resource A ran out faster then humanity could find a replacement for it, nuke happy aftermath, or is it bullshit psuedo-science that prevents a form of technology from ever working (lookin at you Revolution)

2: How close to home did shit hit the fan? Did all the nukes hit all the major cities or did they scatter and just fuck up the landscape? Was the zombie apoc ground zero new york, or wisconsin? the more standing after the great fart of apocalypse the more likely industry will kick back up again.

3: Where were you when the shit hit the fan? Not you specifically, but people in general. For some reason most apoc stories happen when the protags on a camping trip or traveling or some shit.

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>>55027777
Yeah. They can't afford foreign guns or bullets so they make their own. The whole "mad max everyone using spears the moment their iphones stop working" thing really bothers me because it implies that people are incapable of making new things for themselves. Everything MUST be made by a corporation.

>>55032569
even if they could make their own guns they'd still want them banned after the world ends.

>>55028212

You misread me. When I said,

>especially engineering types seen as having no immediate use

I think you took it as:

> especially engineering types (seen as having no immediate use)

when a less ambiguous phrasing is:

> especially those engineering types seen as having no immediate use.

Aeronautical engineers, computer engineers, electronic engineers if they're too narrowly focused on microprocessor design or other things. Genetic engineers.

These are all simply too narrow and imply too much infrastructure to be relevant in the short term.

Whereas civil engineers are gold. Nuclear engineers, too, since a lot of their work boils down to plumbing. Chemical engineers are brilliant especially if they're not too specialized. EEs and MEs are valuable depending on specialty and what infrastructure is left.

But some specialties are dead weight until society has recovered significantly.

STEM in the long term has problems. There are simply too many specialties and they require a very limited resource (high-IQ mathematically inclined people) who are in demand for other jobs as well. Almost everybody is literate, so a few generations later it's pretty safe to assume that literacy rates will remain high. But with engineering, getting that knowledge preserved into the second generation is going to be a big problem. You'll have too many disciplines chasing too few brains. And those who do study it will inevitably pick up a simplified version of their discipline optimized for the survival/recovery situation. Stuff gets lost that way.

>>55025466
This man's got the right idea.

...All I wanted to know about is wasteland weapons you human garbage fires.

>>55022867
we have more than enough bullets to kill off every human, especially after an apocalypse.

>>55033059
But do we have enough for half of them to be lost, destroyed or made useless and then for people to spray them uselessly 90% of the time?

>>55033150
Humanity is a strange beast. No matter the supply, we will find ways to penetrate each other with fast moving objects at long distances.

>>55033150
Could probly do that. Gotta solve the caseless problem. Even the germans with their kraut space magic couldn't make it good.

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in surprised into the badlands has not been brought up seems the most similar to what is described

>>55035469
>has feudal lords ruling over slave workers
>said lords have banned guns and the warrior class use swords crossbows and martial arts

>the closest thing to bandits seem to act allot like mercenarys

>the lords trade resources they control (oil; opium gold slaves)

the only non realistic part is the psychic powers and the kung fu movie action also a lack of armor

>>55022867
Bolt action and shotguns would last the longest, along with drum pistols.
All automatic or semi-automatic weaponry would quickly become rare, expensive and probably reserved for the most rich and powerful warlords

>>55035679
No. Semi-automatic and fully automatic weapons are still very durable there are various automatic weapons from the early 1900s that function perfectly fine despite having all original parts. Revolvers are actually very delicate, they rely on a strict timing to actually fire and it's a real problem for that timing to fail and fire out of battery and snapping the cylinder closed, like you see in movies, by flicking it damages the revolver. This isn't mentioning manufacture of such weapons, which is actually extremely easy and can be done just by buying stuff from a hardware store.

>>55035737
I don'talk about actual durability. I know the 1911 is stil considered the best gun for a reason.
I'm talking about maintenance. I figure bolt action weapons and shotguns would be easier to mantain in less than optimal condition and by people who don't know how to gun

>>55027777
>Aren't bullets reasonably easy make?

Very easy if you have the basic equipment & knowledge

>>55035760
>1911 is considered the best gun for a reason
First of all, you're lucky this isn't /k/, you'd spark a massive inferno that way. Second of all, maintaining a weapon isn't hard, they're really not complex, most of the same processes you use on a manual action gun, are the same processes you'd use on an repeater. Even then, a lack of proper maintenance really won't brick a gun.

Even without access to gunpowder you can still have 'FULLY AUTOMATIC CROSSBOW'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKGjRoSofA
The range and penetration isn't great, but it will suppress the shit out of someone, or even a group of poorly armored someones trying to rush your ass with club and blade.

>>55024063
>Ammunition manufacturers do not waste money by making more ammo than they can sell.

Capitalism does operate on producing as much as companies think than they can sell, yes, which is usually a whole lot more than what they actually will sell. That's mainly because not having enough of your product to offer means that somebody else will start poaching on your market.

>>55035782
The real problem is bullets. Rapid fire weapons eat bullets fast, and in this day and age, there are a lot less people who know how to use reloading equipment to msake bullets, and even less who have access to said reloaduing equipment. Certainly there are some, but realistically, they are not going to be the urbanites and average joes that make up the bulk of the population who also have access to automatic weaponry. Gangs have tons of automatic weaponry nowadays, but they don't have access to homemade bullet production.

Also, not the person you were discussing this with before.

>>55035782
>you're lucky this isn't /k/
Guns are stupid anyway, but good to know about the maintenance thing, i guess

>>55035844
Right, but the thing is, in a real apocalypse, there's going to be many, many, many more available bullets than people. It's also going to be very valuable knowledge to learn how to reload ammunition, and there will definitely be some crazy Gun Runners esque bastards who will set up places designed specifically to manufacture guns and ammo.

>>55022867
A Warhammer or an Axe - the beginning and the end of the story.

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>>55035760
Not gonna touch it.

>>55035872
>>55035844
Sure, it's been done in the past too multiple times. It's actually easier to manufacture guns than ammo though and ammo is much easier to ship for obvious reasons. Not sure if it's easier to move a factory to the supply though, that's a tough one.

>>55035906
Even then, people really won't use that much ammunition, as much as we act like it's gonna be constant anarchy, it's more likely to be a lot of small and some large communities banding together with hardly any form of traditional warfare before things stabilize.

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>>55035941
I don't know what it'd be like, I just like to daydream about arming a 3rd world country/postapoc militia/resistance group/bandit army/whatever with improvised/lotech guns.

Ammo's always the critical point but it's also plentiful in the other guy's supply in like... 60% of those scenarios.

>>55035967
You know how in fallout there were a bunch of small, semi-stable civilizations scattered about? Imagine that happening maybe 20 years after the initial apocalypse and go from there. Unless everybody goes rabid for one reason or another, we'd still stick to stick to stable communities and build from there as is our nature as humans.

>>55022867
Depends on the apocalypse but 99% of the time people will use guns.

Consider that the there are more than enough bullets on the planet to kill everyone alive a dozen times over.

Consider that this post-apocalypse world has a tiny, tiny fraction of the former population but an equal number of guns and bullets.

Consider that most firearms are engineered well enough that a small amount of basic maintenance can keep them functional for centuries.

Consider that reloading requires a handful of common tools, that the ingredients for the gunpowder necessary for bullets are incredibly plentiful and easy to extract.

There's just no good reason, in the vast majority of scenarios, for people to not use guns.

>>55023005
>We'd likely revert to flintlock weapons, as the ammunition is just simple lead balls in paper cartridges. Repeating firearms aren't really practical without percussion-sensitive primers like mercury fulminate, which are almost certainly outside of an average Joe's ability to synthesize. A fairly organized faction with access to books and lab supplies might be able to, though.

I don't buy the idea of reverting to flintlocks in the post-apocalypse. The gap between even the most primitive cartridge gun and a musket is just so extreme that I can only imagine it would be worth the extra effort. The last time I've heard of flintlock weapons being used was the Russian Civil war where some Siberian guerillas used them (flintlocks being simple enough to being basically jam-proof even in the depth of Siberia's winter).

Thing is that's a very specific situation, guerilla war in an extreme climate, and in 99 of a hundred cases the simplest breech-loaded cartridge gun is going to come out on top against flintlocks, to the point where making the flintlocks would be a waste of time. If you could use the same man hours and materials to make either 10 cartridge rifles or a 100 flintlocks the cartridges are going to win out every time.

>>55036000
Primers really are one of the hardest parts of the gun. They're all specialty chemicals and stupid dangerous to handle. The "common" ingredients are mercury or silver and the silver fulminate will detonate from a drop of water falling on it. The more common the chemicals in your primar(y explosive) the more volatile it seems to get. You're talking 100 cartridge ROUNDS vs. 1000+ musket balls with powder and a fucking flint ignition system for the same effort. Now again comes the alternate ignition stuff that's not in practice now because of the massive infrastructure that COULD still be effective. Flintlock cartridge rounds aren't even out of the question but piezo electric ignition or something is increasingly viable since quartz is fucking everywhere.

Even in the (US or british) indian wars guns didn't win out all the time simply because there wasn't enough ammo to go around while in the field.

>>55035981
Yeah it's travel and trade that'll be what suffer the most, which will cause the mass exodus of cities into rural areas causing conflict.

>>55036042
>it's dangerous
And that's stopped people... when?

>>55036065
HAH, never but the number of people capable of actually completing the production will inevitably decline explosively. Compare that to a fucking spark plug wired into your barrel or a burning cord or a chunk of flint rock. There's an advantage in numbers and effort to things being simpler for non-educated people to manage.

Combined with the simplicity of burning up all your ammo on ez-DIY full auto grease guns because adding semiauto makes it an order of magnitude more difficult and productive idiots will burn through a lot of your options.

There's enough info on youtube on how to make your own home made guns and crossbows, that I'm sure someone is backing that information up. You might not have rifles capable of making accurate shots at 500m, but you would still have guns capable of firing off shotgun shells.

>>55030243
>Platemail
Plate and mail? Plated mail? Explain.

>>55036088
I don't think there's any good reason to expect people to be incapable in the post apocalypse of doing things your great grandpa could do, or you could do, for that matter. It's not like they're charting new horizons - there'll probably be more reloading manuals around than people.

>>55036146
Well my grandpa and great-grandpa could order guns and ammo out of a sears catalogue or maybe if he was lucky find his gun's special snowflake ammo at a general store. Or a generic percussion cap (primer) with generic powder that fit multiple guns. My great-great grandpa would have had access to muskets or rifled muskets with flintlock ignition. Can easily cast ball ammo at home, maybe even make your own black powder in small quantities.

There really was no DIY ammo thing other than that, the industrial revolution pushed muskets out. They still use muskets in some parts of the world where powder is easy to come by but ammo is not. That's going to take a press and metal stock and large amounts of chemical factories. I mean MAYBE I could personally make smokeless powder but not primers/percussion caps.

>>55036190
It's very possible to make your own primer, I've seen it on /k/ a while back in an info thread. The only reason why people are doing it is because there's really no reason to do so besides being a madman crazy enough to load his own primers. In the post apocalypse, being the guys with the most bestest guns and ammo is going to be a real nice deal if we assume the scenario where everything is a wild murderhobo paradise.

>>55027761
All this. Mad max is the penultimate apoc scenario. A series of catastrophic wars and breakdowns as we burn through and fight over a rapidly diminishing pool of resources.

>initial war
>war over oil
>war over water
>war over life sustaining land
>war over the last scraps

Assuming any of the first three involve some level of nuclear retaliation we're going to very quickly skip to game over or the last jets loaded up with priceless fuel and more nukes then anybody could ever need and sent on spite runs to demolish the last vestiges of power

>>55036224
I've seen people make primers out of toy caps and stuff but having a stockpile of mercury or silver around is gonna be tough. I'm not a chemist so that shit's definitely out of my league. There might be chemicals developed in the past century that's easy and safe but I don't know it. It's plenty easy/cheap to stockpile primers/caps anyway.

I could totally rig up electric ignition in various ways but thats just better suited to my skills.

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>>55029338
>Perhaps the planet mind is trying to tell us something?
Yeah dude, like, you just have to like, open your third eye, dude. Mother like, Gaia and stuff, nature, bro. Like, those evil capitalist corporations, bro, they hate us commies because they're like, lizardmen from outer-space who hate mother nature, bro. like, dude, you can't like, do stuff or else like, KARMA and stuff, dude, mother nature will like, have her revenge, man.

Your hippie circlejerk will never rule the Earth, and people will never go back to tribal societies. As the other anon said, the cat can't go back into the bag. Whether it be forms of government, shit that goes boom, or fancy new ways to make "Mother Nature" our bitch. The fucking "planet mind" is not manipulating the media as a fucking "warning to her children". Jesus Christ, fucking eco-terrorists, I swear.

>>55036263
Why the fuck are you thinking people are using mercury and silver in their primers, this isn't fucking 1904

>>55036325
I don't know any better, see the problem? I totally know enough to blow my ass up though.

>>55036234
Fun fact: nuclear apocalypse is based on the long debunked, fundamentally retarded scenario of nuclear winter. Also, duck and cover is an incredibly valid response to a nuclear attack since the biggest danger to you is not the blast wave, which will be a absorbed by the building you're in, but rather, falling debris.

The reason there's such a strong "nukes = doom" meme is because nukes = no more festering metropolitan ratraps .

>>55036330
It's called a book. Which there will be plenty of around after the apocalypse.

>>55036330
Well crack open an Idiot's Guide and you'll know more than the rot you're talking. Basing the collective ability and intelligence of humanity on your own woefully misinformed ass is juvenile and dumb.

>>55036367
Even if there is nuclear winter it wouldn't lead to societal breakdown and anarchy portrayed regularly in post-apoc fantasies. In fact it event like that would strengthen societal bonds and likely lead to authoritan military dictatorships. Of course that's not fun, so we prefer the fantasy version.

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>>55036234
>You don't NEED those nukes!
>>55036367
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_influence_on_the_peace_movement
It's also because of literal commies and the KGB infiltrating and orchestrating western "peace" movements/organizations. They figured that if they can get everyone scared of it, they can try to pull ahead when their puppets raise a fuss about it in the other country.

>>55036383
>>55036386
I'm sure that would motivate me but honestly I couldn't care less about chemistry. I could totally tell you what cowboys were using though.

>>55029867
You are just jelly because your house has no dick.

>>55036431
Could also be a ruse to discredit the peace movement. Or both. Do you even do foreign politics and internal politics?

>>55036431
>Soviets fund the peace movement
>USA funds fascist secret societies, dictators and global terrorism

SIX-DIMENSIONAL HORSESHOE CHESS

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I imagine people would start produced high-caliber air-rifles and shit, ammo would be a piece of piss to manufacture and you don't need any special chemical components to make it work.

>>55036367
There's also the continued meme of nuclear war=everywhere becomes Australian desert a la Mad Max.

The Chernobyl meltdown happened in 1986, and the entire region has since been completely reclaimed by nature. Yes, the persistent radiation causes mutations in the wildlife, but it's not "giant firebreathing scorpions" bullshit. It's "This spiders web looks a little fucked up compared to an unexposed individual of the same species, and it probably won't live as long," kinds of mutation.

The effects of radiation are highly damaging in high concentrations, but still largely misrepresented by hollywood and Fallout as life-purging magic instead of being worse for Society than Humanity.

Same as a tidal wave, smart and able people can pick up and move in the wake of a disaster. It's just that the mindless heard of urban society is too dependent on their luxuries and convenience to contemplate the idea of starting over once the dust has settled, and would rather live like rats among the rubble.

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>>55029338
>

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>>55036824
Everything being overgrown by brambles and you moving at 0,5 MPH as you clear your way through them is no fun, bro.

>>55022867

It boils down to how much stable your society can set itself up during the "modern gun" period that would follow SHTF.

A well-organized group, with enough people and modern weapons, could endure most threats and secure some prime farming lands.
From there, it could just build up.

Now, depending on how devastating the apocalypse is, there might just be enough left over from the previous civilization to last until a adequate industrial base was grown up again.

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Living in Australia I can confirm this thread.
>the bogans and thicc breeders shall inherit the Earth

>>55036145
For most of its existence plate armour was worn with mail, to cover joints and other weak points.

>>55036694
Crossbows are probably more feasible for survivors to build in makeshift workshops.

>>55037855
So plate and mail.

Everything becomes magic once we forget how it actually works.
Except babies. We know how to make babies so we can have a feast 9 months later.

>>55036412
Niqqa. Wtf.

If nuclear Winter occurs as proposed food production would collapse and society would follow in short order.

Even your barebones military dictatorships wouldn't work if you don't have the food too feed your soldiers and Farmers.

>>55036367
Retarded opinion tbqh.

>muh cities are rat traps

Even if we just accept your premise of "lel no nuclear winter whatsoever" society would still be surpremly fucked if its a full scale nuclear exchange.

The dudes in charge of nuclear weapons actually have neat little lists full of value targets. They are dead set on breaking the enemy nation. Dams, military bases, infrastrucure, cities etc.

>muh self sufficient rednecks/Farmers

Have fun getting overrun by millions of desperate and irridiated refugees. Or having your farm "nationalized" by roving packs of leftover military.

Have fun drinking irradiated water (Reminder they would bomb Water sources dams, Israel for example has a nuke pointed at the Assuan Dam.).

Have fun in a barter economy where most goods come from nuclear bast zones and thus are irradiated.

Have fun in a world without the industries to provide fertilizer and gas for modern agriculture.

Oh and have fun with all kinds of exotic cancer. I am sure the local hospital is just as competent to deal with that as the large and well equipped Hospitals in the Metropolitan rat traps.

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>>55038156
>Has no fucking clue how nukes work other than from fiction and media
>Is just assblasted because his urban sprawl got insulted for being the shithead breeding ground it is
Long before your so-called "refugees"(looting criminals) go to urban areas, they would have mostly killed each other off.

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>>55025416
This, there are people in Alaska who make a living by building windmills to produce electricity from scratch, and then barter/trade those windmills with their neighbors for fucking wooden planks to build a house.

MGyvering shit up in your backyard is a hell of a lot easier than people think. It would be especially easy in a city where there is raw material just laying around all over the fucking place.

>>55027564
>electric cars
>biodiesel cars

I can easily see two post apocalyptic empires rising as bitter enemies, the Windmill empire, and the Olive empire.

>>55027777
>bows are hard to make

Maybe compound bows, or modern day bows made out of plastic and shit with multiple strings and a sniper scope on them that can shoot through a rhinos skull from half a mile away.

But shit like ordinary yew longbows are hella easy to make. There are tons of videos on youtube on how to make simple long bows. From super shitty ones made in a single day for hunting rabbit and other small game. To more high quality ones that can take down a deer.

>>55027785
>https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHkYrJ2Fbe7pBjEZvkFzi3A/videos?sort=dd&view=0&flow=grid

Watch this guy's video. He has all of that shit and not a single piece of his equipment uses electricity.

You are a fucking idiot for thinking people never had any of that kid of equipment before the invention of electricity.

Electricity couldn't have been invented, the fucking lightbulb couldn't have been invented, if we didn't already have such equipment.

>>55038668
>fucking redneck constantly shit talking cities
>hehehe you don't know how nukes work

Yeaah no... my school had more than 100 pupils.

>you don't know how nukes work

Niqqa. They destroy cities, irradiate water sources and are able to flat out wipe out military installations. There is no big nuke secret Making them okay.

And no your bumfuck remote area don't heroically rebuild.

>muh most refugees would be dead

Make up your mind. Not everyone would be dead before they reach you. The people from small cities would flee aswell even if they aren't that affected by radiation. Guess what the logistical system just collapsed and everyone would be moving to the countryside for food.

And nice way of dogging the rest of my points fgt.

>>55036270
I don't drink Kale and self destructive (not evil) corporations are just a pattern earth has used many times before. At one point in earth's history it was actually trees that were the biggest threat to the environment. Before that it was micro-organisms which breathed oxygen. Hippies are stupid because they can't understand how absolutely ruthless mother nature is. She's trying to make sure something on earth can evolve to travel to other planets and infect them with more of herself. Humanity may or many not be that thing. The only one's who have any concept of revenge are humans, who may or may not resent being used in such a way by her. She'll torture us until we do what she wants, and kill us if we fail to live up to her expectations. That's all there is too it. Why would a planet sized consciousness understand anything remotely conceivable as empathy for individual organisms, or even species? Do you care for the bacteria in your gut? If anything, the fact that you can even experience emotions like love or anger is just another one of her experiments, just like Sapience itself. If we are successful, Sapience and emotion will become more common. Otherwise they will go extinct just like everything else. She's been causing mass extinctions much longer than we've been asking why death is even necessary.

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>>55039934
>If he doesn't think of cities as an urban utopia, he's a fucking redneck! NIQQA!
I'm not going to spoon feed you shit, you nigger.. You're obviously not the learning type anyway, and you stick out like a sore thumb. I'm sure you hear this often, but, you have to go back to where you came from.

>>55040352
A fucking planetary consciousness? I mean come on, when's the last time you saw a shrink. I don't have a neural linkup to my fucking cat. Pic related is what I think of your planetary consciousness crap.

>>55036824
Everyone knows that radiation won't grow giant lazershooting killerants. But cancerridden slavpunk isn't most people's idea of a fun setting.

>>55040437
Yeah, you are so very close to understanding what Avatar was about. Who do you think put those words into his mouth? Pandora is a weaker planet than Gaia because they need to be plugged into things in order to be connected with them, but ultimately it's a computer generated spectacle for people ON EARTH who are constantly plugged into their computers, WHICH WERE BUILT ON EARTH. It also served to make a lot of earth money for earth corporations, who are laughing like hyenas all the way to the bank. (also surprisingly enough part of earth's ecosystem)

All these things can be understood as ecosystems, networks. Which is in fact how humans are trying to build AIs right now. The Gaia theory is just the idea that the earth itself can be understood as being another form of computer, and it predates Avatar by decades.

Why would you have a neural linkup to your cat? Maybe you and your cat are just very unimportant parts of the planetary consciousness? If you like the idea of going to another planet and killing people on it, maybe that's because the planet itself thinks you are more useful as an expendable soldier to use in potential wars against other planetary intelligence? The fact that you find the idea of a planetary mind incomprehensible might just be because the planet doesn't want you to become a vector of reverse infection from another planetary intelligence.

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>>55039934
>Niqqa

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>>55040689
It predates Avatar and follows the creation of LSD, I bet. And fuck you buddy, my dreams of slaying xeno shits are not part of your crackpot planet-mind theories. You should check out this thread, by the way. The OP would love it.
>>55033461

>>55040689
This is gold comedy, here.

>>55040860
Unless you've grown up outside of the planet, then your thoughts are part of a culture that is also influenced by the planet itself. Even LSD is something that was first synthesized by scientists who live on earth, and used by earth governments for mind control experiments. So called crackpots frequently turn out to have a surprising amount of influence on this planet. They end up making movies about cat people which make billions of dollars.

People who resist the idea of said global control often become some of it's most important weapons. Not as individuals, but as expendable foot soldiers.

>>55040970
Given the argument you two are having, that global conciousness you're rambling about must have one hell of a schizophrenia case

>>55027785
Electricity is only needed to power the motion of some equipment.
If you can get something else (like steam ? or water ? or even hand !!) to get some motion, you might have a way.

>>55041015
Schizophrenia would be the natural state of a creature made out of billions of smaller minds that only sometimes agree with each other on oddly specific things. We are the voices in the earth's head, not the other way around.

>>55039934
Wow you're a vile person.

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>>55036435
Cowboys where using exported Primers, from Industrial areas.
They where also using Fiat Money, with changing value. And moved between various settled lands, and unsettled lands.
Actually its funny: The railroad ended up killing The Wild West, because it got domesticated by army mobilization and a expanding police force.

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>>55040437

>edgy avatar pic
>muh you are not the learning type

Bring one good argument why a massive nuclear exchange wouldn't fuck up the USA.

>you have to go back
>you hear that often

Actually no.

>>55040777
>>55042322
Oh go cry a river.

Wouldn't this entirely depend on exactly what causes the collapse of civilisation?

>>55044917
Kill yourself, nigger.

>>55041067
If you can build steam engine, then building steam powered generator isn't really any more complicated.

>>55045539
>/tg/ prepper faction gets whiny when you point out a Nuclear War would fuck them

>>55022867
People talked about gunpowder already. I think you're going to see a lot of crossbows too, given the number of cars and spring steel lying around.

A lot of metal improvised armor too.

>>55044917
>Bring one good argument why a massive nuclear exchange wouldn't fuck up the USA.
Everyone would be fucked. Low population density areas, like the rural midwest would be less fucked.

>>55032825
But wouldn't a specific field like Genetic Engineering still have prerequisite knowledge that could be useful in such a setting?

>>55023005
There are literally trillions of bullets, dude.

>>55039399
Woodgas cars as well will be popular.

>>55049239
Yeah it would, engineering courses typically (at least in australia) start with a general foundation of physics, design, structural engineering and maths for a couple of years before you start doing your specialty.

While not as quickly or easily as a mechanical engineer a say aeronautic engineer should still be good to have on hand when dealing with machines and such.

>>55029222
jewfag found

>>55035559
I dont know your stance on the show

there has to be some fantasy element to keep it interesting

>>55049239
Okay so:
1. Genome stuff without equipment? No
2. Breeding animals? Yes
3. Crossbreeding plants? Yes
4. Fungal growth stuff for antibiotica? Maybe
5. Making jealously garded medicine without a reference textbook and some facilities? Unlikely

>>55056744
Go kill yourself. You don't need fantasy elements. Only style, substance and being cool.

>>55024063
>dark ages

>>55036145
>autistic enough to complain about platemail
>not autistic enough to complain about chainmail

>>55026057
I bet you also think that in a zpocalypse all those people who raided the supermarket had time to eat the food they raided. Most people will die before all their stores run out early on.

>>55024294
that's a nice artstyle anyone got sauce on the pic's artist

>>55051512
And people like to shoot millions of bullets a day.

>>55039934
>>55044917

> Implying a single remote self-sufficient hick compound can't easily defeat ten times its number in starving refugees given two weeks of prep time

>>55025502
full auto means i am forced to hold down the trigger? have you ever even held a fire arm. my metallurgy teacher made plenty of his own fire arms with out buying any parts just take the right material and equipment. people arnt as stupid as you make them out to be.

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I dont doubt bows would be incredibly popular as a way to conserve ammo via firehardened arrows and stay quiet(er), but mostly compound or crossbows
Ammo never will run out though, producing it isnt hard when you know the science, and there are enough people that know it that SOME have to survive if anyone does, especially since most bugouters and preppers know it.

>>55027165
its more likely people would forget how to make armor than firearms. useful ideas are pasted down i.e making firearms.

>>55063843
Depends on the armor.
If you're talking about "Armor that'd be useful against a modern gun" Yeah, that shit's getting lost instantly

>>55027664
literally bullets

>>55063857
actualy i think thats the only type that would stay. this is a guns world and no one in their right mind is going to specialize in making shitty tire armor. wearing armor that stops a bullet isn't always a 100% choice so armor that cant even do that is pretty much a no no. personal i like to keep it light so my bug out kit doesn't have armor. Id rather take more ammo or be able to move faster and use less water and energy.

>>55064176
I meant the good modern shit. I mean, yeah, you can still slap steel plates to yourself and hope for the best. But there's a reason people don't do that. Several actually.
Stuff like kevlar is going away instantly

>>55064217
>you can still slap steel plates to yourself and hope for the best.
this is stupid and no one stupid enough to survive this long into an collapses would this.
Several actually.
>Stuff like kevlar is going away instantly
what kind of apocalypse is this were useful ideas are forgotten and primitive ones are somehow remembered. I.e there are more people who know how to make bullets then fletch an arrow or there are more poeple who now how to work with kevlar and ceramics(btw the ceramics are what do most of the work)Then there are people who know how to make plate armor or chain mail.

>>55064342
shit that is useful today but wasn't useful 50 years ago is most likely still highly patented and secured trade secrets.

>>55064400
one of the first kevlar vest was made by a pizza delivery boy. Kevlar isn't some government secret tech. some one makes kevlar so that means someone knows how to make it.

>>55064176
I mean, people don't do that because we have the ability to purchase super strong plates with spall liners. Using a stupid argument like "Hurr durr why not just do something that's pointless in a society where i can order something better over the internet" is fucking retarded. There's plenty of different types of steel that can stop rounds, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that someone is just gonna strap a steel plate to their chest in the apocalypse if they're so worried about getting shot.

>>55022867
Rock in a sock
Nail in a board

>>55064597
meant to reply to >>55064217 this asshole.

>>55064616
they are both me :) why call me an asshole.
>>55064597
no there are many down sides to wearing good armor it makes no sense to strap steel plates to your body. Any one with half a brain would take using less water and food over the very small possibility you might stop certain bullets and you might not get a broken rib from the shock and you might not get hit by spalling

>>55064400
"Patented" is a short way of saying "we know exactly how it's done, and the government isn't here anymore to hold up their end of the 'tell everyone how and we won't let anyone else sell it for 20 years' deal".

Combat would look a lot like World War 1. Most of our tools to ensure offensive supremacy - the tank, the bomber, the missile - would be gone with a lack of high-density fuels and specialty alloys. Most of our tools to ensure miles of impenetrable trenches - the cartridge, the locomotive/short-range (so steam or lead-acid electric are plausible) automobile/bicycle to ensure arrival of reserves overnight, nationalism to ensure large armies - are steam, steel, literal bat shit, and figurative batshit, none of which will be in short supply.

It's also worth noting that modern military doctrine allocates several hundred thousand rounds fired per kill. Our stockpile to invade a pissant fourth-tier power like Iraq, a country about as strong as Ethiopia before two major wars and a decade of sanctions, could probably have depopulated most of the US in the hands of low-intensity sharpshooters rather than "that bush just shook in the wind, let's have the entire platoon empty two mags into it" politics-driven squad tactics.

>>55064520
>>55064722
Not government secret, corporate secret. The sort of thing where if people talk about it they get bankrupted and their lives ruined. Not the kind of know how that spreads.

>>55064597
have you ever worn body armor for an extended period of time?

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>>55064690
Someone's gonna rather take the risk of getting spall to the face and a broken rib over being punctured by a rifle round. It might not be commonplace but someone definitely might do it.

>>55064733
I have, it fucking blows, even with modern ceramics and vests. But someone is going to think the benefits of not having a sucking chest wound is going to outweight the suckage of wearing a makeshift platecarrier. I can definitely see it happening for guys who's job is to keep watch in towns.

>>55064732
there wont be a corporation left so they could spread it. again you imagine a world were all the useful people die and the cast of the walking dead is all thats left.

>>55064722
Well besides the fact that you think current squad tactics is "politics driven" makes you retarded, it's really difficult to get a good shot off when you've got rounds flying by your head, assholes shooting at you with machine guns and shit blowing up. All the rounds spent are because we use suppressive fire so the assholes we want to kill don't move or shoot our guys. If someone is shooting at you, you don't want your head up for longer than it needs to be, conversely for a good shot you need to keep your head up for longer than it needs to be. Hence, you have a machine gun shoot a fuckton of bullets at them so they don't shoot you and you can shoot them in a more leisurely fashion.

>>55064795
again i adressed this point in a world where supplies like water and food are low energy conservation is a must and if they are worried about getting shot in a guard tower then they can post hidden sentries. A steel plate thick enough to stop a average rifle round would be anywhere from 1/8 inch to a half inch.

>>55064732
If it's patented, it's not a corporate secret. Also, "bankrupt, life ruined" is not exactly a serious threat after the bombs drop.

And apart from those guys who really want wacky nanotech full plate, we're long-past patent relevancy. Colt's New Model is 1855 technology.

Think of the Roman fall - we lost the cutting edge and specialty techniques (though the Byzanties and Arabs kept them!) and preserved what was plausible knowledge for a villa passed by by the barbarian hordes.
The modern equivalents of villas nowhere near targeting coordinates are midwest market cities of 50,000, often with the physical sciences programs of a state university and a city library carrying several encyclopedias and an entire >>>/diy/ wing, to say nothing of possibly hosting a patent database archive or maybe going in on one of the "Wikipedia on 100 DVDs" offers. (And chicken wire was a common enough building material in those regions that, EMP or no, there are probably a LOT of surviving PCs).

>>55064795
you ignore the fact that not lugging around a steel plate helps you avoid those things being light on your feet and being able to out maneuver or at least disengage your combatant. the only time the body armor isn't a disadvantage is during the first contact of an ambush. really your chances of surviving that due to you hunk of metal are about as good as your chance they miss.

>>55064895
You're a moron if you think modern tactics aren't politics driven. The American public doesn't tolerate losses of its boys at any proportion, hasn't since Vietnam - Iraq in particular would have remained far more popular with our 100:1 kill ratio otherwise. Hence the $250,000,000 planes dropping $250,000 bombs on buildings suspected to contain $250 of military hardware.

>>55064953
Again, it's all personal preference in this case, people even now choose to either shed plates or wear more, depending. Some people think it's better to have a lot of maneuverability, some think it's better to have a good plate to stop a shot. It'll be the same after the apocalypse.

>>55064895
>>55064955
To clarify, I'm not saying that modern doctrine is a worse idea. I think it's a better idea. But it's a clear, and clearly politically-driven decision, to value the potential of a human life at a very high price in hardware rather than go "eh, we can breed another and feed it to 16 a lot cheaper than we can manufacture that many bullets".

>>55065031
I mean, it's not like they don't have the budget to blow on $500,000 bombs for every shitty little hut filled with slav surplus.

>>55065031
The issue is that the idea of "Potential value of human life" COMPLETELY falls apart when you remember how we just fucking abandon our vets after they come home

>>55065058
Focusing the budget to drop a $500,000 bomb on that $250 of Slav surplus, rather than send two dudes with $250 of Slav surplus and also send ten dudes at home to state university for four years, is pretty political. :^)

>>55065070
I didn't say we were efficient with it. But they high-expenditures low-losses doctrine is a direct, and admitted by both Republican and Democratic appointees, reaction to the effectiveness of nightly news listings of the day's dead soldiers as a tactic of turning public opinion against wars.
I wish we'd get rollcalls of vets who suicided or died of OD to match, but we don't because in the end capital's anti-war faction is just anti-war because it keeps their taxes high and labor expensive.

>>55059210
We live in the age of the 'just in time' supply chain. There's no colossal warehouses filled to the rafters with shit with a 10+ year expirery date.

Your average supermarket contains enough non-perishable food to sustain a single person for about 25 years, which sounds like a long time except realistically, if you're one guy, you've got no hope of defending a supermarket's worth of resources, so you'll need help.

Every man you add to your group to defend the supermarket, reduces how many years the supplies will last, but if you don't take on men and share, you'll end up losing it all a damn sight faster.

Realistically, you'll end up with a handful of groups who've raided every source of useful material within range of a tank of gas, then stockpiled it in a defensible location, so no, unless it's an apocalypse where there are only one or two people per hundred thousand km, you're not going to just wander down the street and dip into a pristine supermarket filled with edible goods 5+ years after the collapse of society.

This isn't even taking into account shit like massive firestorms sweeping most urban areas and destroying anything of value, nuclear plants melting down and irradiating large swathes of the country or other natural or manmade disasters reducing available pre-collapse stockpiles.

>>55064798
>>55064918
No it's totally spreadable its just not like public knowledge like all the gun shit BEFORE everything goes down.

>>55064999
but now we have light enough and useful armor a metal plate gives almost no benefit and is a placebo at best.

>>55061023
You're being a retarded faggot if you don't know the difference between millions and trillions.

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>>55065210
>the urban firestorm meme
1974 called, they want their crackpot doomsday propaganda back

>>55065210
Any apocalypse worth the name will kill humans and disrupt infrastructure faster than it destroys stockpiles of non perishable goods. There will be fewer people fighting over more stuff. It's unlikely that YOU will be the one human with a whole supermarket to yourself, but it is possible that there will be supermarkets who only get raided by one or two people, because everyone else is dead.

>>55022867
>But what do you think, realistically, combat after the fall of modern society would look like?
It will be people fighting with what ever they can get their hands on. This will be entirely based the population size of a survivor group and its proximity to stock piles of weaponry or a manufacturing base. Those two things will be determined by the type and scale of the apocalypse.

If a group is near a modern weapon stock pile then they use guns and possible heavy weapons. If the group has sufficient talent and manufacturing ability then it will take a long time for the stockpiles to be depleted. It is possible that they may even be able to manufacture ammunition.

Basically you will end up having frontline formations with the best weapons the group can muster and supply. Axillary formations will get second line weapons based on what can be scrounged. If there is a need for more formations then a group can scrounge weapons for, the group will be forced to manufacture weapons for them based on their tech level and the urgency of the situation.

You might have a small team armed with modern rifles supporting a large group armed with crossbows/bows/machete/pointy-sticks if thats all you can scrounge and make. If you hit the jackpot, everyone may have an AR-15 and enough ammunition for a lifetime.

beyond that its entirely situational.

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>>55065210
>nuclear plants melting down and irradiating large swathes of the country

This anon has a very valid point here :
In most SHTF scenario, all those high-maintenance nuclear powerplants are just going to be massive hazard.
Even if all of them safe one go to sleep peacefully by some miracle, that single accident will be enough to poison vast swats of lands... and most of the people inside the area won't even notice it until they start dying.

While it might not be that bad in the US, have a look at Europe.
France, Spain, Germany, Benelux and most of the UK and western Italy are going to be a big large red area.

If SHTF and you live in Belgium like myself, the best thing to do would be to try to go as far as possible from Europe, hoping no meltdown will occur before you are out.

>>55023477
>Girandoni_air_rifle
Awwww, yiiiissssssss

>>55037872
But isn't it pretty?

>>55063741
>producing it isnt hard when you know the science
Producing is hard without access to supplies or infastructure. Producing one blast cap might be fine, but hundres is hard. And real production means you want to produce at the least a few hundred per day, per workshop.

The plausiable scenarios is to fall back on on types of guns, like Air Rifles, and Post War ammo being shittier than pre war ammo.

>>55065210
>Acopalypse where city infastructure survives
>Raiding and anarchy
Go somewhere else. Police/surviving army making a City State is far more plausible.

>>55069231
>Nukes plants in Europa
>Norway has 2 experimental sites that isn't on map, or now Norway on map
>Most of Europa isn't even on the map
WTF.
Thats also assuming your plants are 1:1 Chernobyl plants, which they aren't. Go fuck yourself green hippie.

>>55069231
Nope, because in Continental (west)Europe unlike Japan and the USA, nuclear powerplants aren't built by corporations looking for profits. So they didn't skim on construction. Those nuclearplants won't break down if they get abandoned. They will just stop working because they're designed to just safely turn off if no humans activate certain processes after a few hours.

>>55070954

>Le nuclear power plants are secure meme

What are you smoking? Who do you think built them? Corporations?

In Germany we had a few really old ones. Belgium for example has Tihange which is basically an excident waiting too happen. The local government even handed out iodine pills on the German side of the border-as a preemptive measure.

And I can assure you that the situation in France and other countries isn't better. Oh and btw Fukushima was such a huge shock in Germany because everbody was certain that the japanese plants have a high security standard just like we do...

>>55071231
* who do you think built them ? Magical Elves? No Corporations.

If you have the knowledge and means to prepare black powder, it's not much more complicated to make smokeless powder. Primer is trickier, but both Potassium Chlorate and Lead Azide can be manufactured without complex or expensive laboratory equipment.

>>55024364
Any time someone starts throwing around the term dark ages I want to vomit. Society in the fucking west turned pretty shit, but the church retained a shitload of knowledge, and there was still the entire fucking eastern empire, and all of the shit going on in the middle east.

>>55071231
I think Nuclear Power is the best situation.
Where you got a old plant, using it for power, but you can't replace or decommision it, because you don't want to replace it with coal/gas or a newer nuclear plant.
Its like a tragic painting.

Then again, all of them would just stop working without operators, unless some idiot puts them in peak power mode before leaving.
Thats the only danger.

>>55071231
>In Germany we had a few really old ones. Belgium for example has Tihange which is basically an excident waiting too happen. The local government even handed out iodine pills on the German side of the border-as a preemptive measure.
>And I can assure you that the situation in France and other countries isn't better. Oh and btw Fukushima was such a huge shock in Germany because everbody was certain that the japanese plants have a high security standard just like we do...
You really don't know much about nuclear power. The local government in Belgium is using the Tihange panic to get some easy votes to stay in control of the municipality.

>>55028880
>Oh come on, especially factories have largely shut down because of changing economics, not the epa.
Hey, at least he didn't blame the feminists this time.

>>55071691
You are really ignorant. Tihange constantly has stuff that breaks. The reactor Simply is too old. And again the local Government is in Germany not Belgium.

>>55036270
>Yeah dude, like, you just have to like, open your third eye, dude. Mother like, Gaia and stuff, nature, bro. Like, those evil capitalist corporations, bro, they hate us commies because they're like, lizardmen from outer-space who hate mother nature, bro. like, dude, you can't like, do stuff or else like, KARMA and stuff, dude, mother nature will like, have her revenge, man.
>Your hippie circlejerk will never rule the Earth, and people will never go back to tribal societies. As the other anon said, the cat can't go back into the bag. Whether it be forms of government, shit that goes boom, or fancy new ways to make "Mother Nature" our bitch. The fucking "planet mind" is not manipulating the media as a fucking "warning to her children". Jesus Christ, fucking eco-terrorists, I swear.

Pretty sure that anon was making a joke, bro.