/sfg/ - Starfinder General

>>54955450

Based Paizo

>>54955450
Good

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>>54955411
>What kind of frontiers are you hoping to explore?
i want to goto the gas giants and see whats in there. i bet there is spooky stuff in them. also, i want to goto ocean planets and fight space seamonsters. i want to goto all kinds of far off places and see whats there.

im excited, its like the wild west

Rules wise how is Starfinder compared to normal Pathfinder?

My group is pretty deadlocked on playing Pathfinder forever but are willing to try it out, though I'm worried about dealing with some of the same bullshit but in space.

>>54955086
Pale-skinned blonde Icon human who videotapes her sexcapades with swarthy Mwangi men.

>>54955411
I was hoping to explore the final frontier but the rules right now aren't really conducive to getting much of that done.

As for how hard the sci-fi... It's not so much hard or soft that I care about. What I like is when it's internally consistent. Like, MAKE the physics for your setting. By all means. But stick to it.

>If a particular type of technological FTL is what's spread throughout the galaxy because magic couldn't pull it off, don't fill the book with mid-high level spells that not only do so but can be an even cheaper item than the hyperdrive to use.

>If plasma is a good way to destroy stuff, don't make everything highly resistant or nearly immune to it and belie that.

>If even the most basic clothing completely immunises you against even significant radiation for entire days at a time, don't pretend that low level radiation is a powerful class ability.

>If stealth is something you can train and upgrade, don't make it impossible by the very basic mechanics by which it works.

>If automation has made 5km dreadnoughts need only what a modern frigate would consider a skeleton-crew, don't make it fucking impossible for a fighter pilot to properly fly and aim his guns at the same time.

>>54955537
A lot of the same bullshit, but in space.

Caster supremacy is gone, and so is any hope of functioning at higher levels.

>>54955411

>Ix is a beautiful planet with no development on the surface, and practically no one goes above ground. The developed part of Ix is subterranean, mainly consisting of labs and factories. The Ixians are the leader in technological production and have the monopoly on producing the starships known as heighliners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ix_(Dune)

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>>54955502
GAS GIANT LIFEFORMS!

>>54955537
Same shit, except better in basically every way. This does not necessarily mean it's good.

>>54955537

They made Vigor + Wound Points the canon HP system, but instead of making Armor as DR the canon armor system they just granulated it further by adding different types of AC for different damage types

It's weird

>>54955549
>>54955614
Even a slight improvement might be nice, and at least the book bloat would be gone, so part of me is tempted to pitch it to my group anyway. What about high level play doesn't function?

>>54955537
Goddamn mess for anything related to DCs other than saving throws; they used multiplicative scaling.

Weapons are also kinda iffy and right now the tables are spotty at best. Say you want to use a crossbow: not only are they unavailable at the lowest levels, but the mid level ones are heavy weapons (so different proficiency/specialization) and the high levels have none at all. Some weapon types literally end at level 2. Power Armor is sparse as fuck and doesn't go past level 15. Ship actions/roles are a mess, and levelling up literally makes doing the same thing you just did right before you levelled (without changing ANYTHING about the ship so the fucktards on the forums can go fuck themselves in a fire with their already-shitty-even-were-it-not-for-this "more complex and bigger ship lol) progressively less likely to succeed even if you're specializing in your bonuses to that...

It's clear this game was NOT playtested, played a little sure but never TESTED. Basic, basic fucking errors in math and rules show that no effort was ever put into this mechanically.

They wrote a setting, they spent two days each separately writing the rules of a chapter without even fucking talking to each-other, and then they slapped an NDA on it.

>>54955603
>why not just play Mongoose Traveller?
Redpill me on it.

Friendly reminder that the suggested 10 PB is still a 15 PB.

>>54955537
Some mechanics are good, e.g. Blindsense/Blindsight are reworked in a remarkably great way, but the math is retarded.
If you get the highest DC's humanly possible in the game, monsters will fail 50% of the time using their weak saves of 25% of the time using their good saves.
Characters extremely specialised in a skill will typically succeed about 50% of the time.
Characters not extremely specialised in shit might as well not bother with skills at all.
Ship math is an entirely different bag of retarded, with high level DC's becoming flat out impossible to meet.

>>54955502
I want to explore the plains of cuckoldry thank god Starfinder finally is an RPG made for me!

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>>54955411

I want to have a world similar to Destiny's Fundament which was a massive Gas Giant where continent sized islands float on a strange ocean and various alien races are stuck there with equally giant creatures that live beneath the planet's oceans.

>>54955782
And those DCs are for what used to be a basic action when you were low level - doesn't matter what ship you're on or how big or advanced it is or isn't. Only your level.

A slide maneuver is exactly as difficult in an interceptor as it is in a dreadnought. It's entirely based on what the average party level is. The envoy gains a level from a diplomatic scuffle down on the planet, and suddenly because you've reached a high enough level the chief engineer can never again balance the shields.

>>54955782

I suck at the math, but shouldn't it be relatively easy to homebrew adjusted DCs? For instance:

Starship Combat: Reduce the DC of checks by the following amounts according to this table:

Level 10-11: -3 DC Modifier
Level 12-13: -4 DC Modifier
Level 14-15: -4 DC Modifier
(...)

Same for other problematic DCs.

Thoughts?

>>54955924

Err.... made a few typos, but the idea should come through.

>>54955924
I have a starship DC fix brewed up, but rebrewing the math of the entire system is far too much work.

The fix is, blanket replace DC's on the left with DC's on the right:
10+2*tier -> 10+1.5*tier
15+2*tier -> 15+1.5*tier
20+2*tier -> 20+1.5*tier
10+3*tier -> 25+1.5*tier

Someone made a spreadsheet that showcases my starship combat math rebalance suggestion.
Original, paizo math: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10F-R-yGim9_DYfxpjKCmwf1tD7EikKyCtekRtZ5ezhc/edit?usp=sharing
My math alteration suggestion: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GsIX_efmjsPa0zXH93Gt_pG38S50iLUvhJMsHJOr0Hg/edit?usp=sharing

>>54955924
It can be homebrewed, but never forget that homebrewing a fix is just a dose of cough-syrup.

The disease is still there. The bad mechanics are still inherent to the system.

I wonder what the new edition of traveler is like.

>>54956000
Quite good, I recommend it.

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>>54955706

It's still an extremely crunchy system, but Traveller started off in the GURPS era of tabletop (I've seen original Traveller handbooks printed on pulp paper and yellowed by age!) Mongoose took up the license and remade it, sort of like what Paizo did to the 3.5 OGL, removing a lot of the rules hemorrhage and streamlining a few systems. It's primarily hex-based, and it's pretty blatant that Starfinder stole most of its technological systems directly from MT (the computer rules are almost word-for-word!) If you read the spaceflight rules and the vehicle rules for Starfinder, you basically already know how half of MT works.

I personally REALLY like MT's character creation system, where instead of rolling up a character normally, you go through a process where you flesh out a character's life with a series of jobs, with success and failure dictated by stats and rolls; sort of like a character creation minigame. Personally, I like playing tabletop RPGs for, well, the roleplaying, so it really gives you an opportunity to flesh out a character before even jumping into a session in a unique and interesting way.

Granted, it's still kinda stupid in that there are no FTL communications, the fuel rules are a pain in the ass, and the game locks you into more of a gritty economy where you're barely making it day-by-day, but if you like the tone of that sort of space-opera Cowboy Bebop rough-house life on a ship deal, it's definitely for you. No magic, though, it's all weird high-science.

Original Traveller still exists under the name "Traveller5," but... I don't like it. That's my personal preference.

>tldr; MT is a hard-scifi space opera game that Starfinder stole the worst parts from. If you like Cowboy Bebop's tone, play it. If you also like being an awful person in space, play it. Pic related.

>>54956046
Where can I get it for free?

>>54956046

There's a few actual play videos on Youtube.

>>54956087
www.thepiratebay.onion

>>54955450

Why are you posting here? You need to go back to pleasing your black Muslim gay communist atheist master's cock like the good little welp you are.

>>54955450
>writing up a white male heteronormative human mystic who loves having sex with his wife in the missionary position for the sake of producing children

Call the police, I don't give a fuck

>>54956046
>I personally REALLY like MT's character creation system, where instead of rolling up a character normally,
Two things:
MT usually refers to the much older MegaTraveller, while the Mongoose editions are referred to as MGT1 and 2.
Second, "normal"? Traveller has been doing the lifepath thing since 1977. Your Gygax Hash process is hardly normal.

Okay, three things. T5 is not "original Traveller" either.

>>54956186

You degenerate is he also going to hold her hand...In public?

>>54956087
There's a Traveller General up fairly often. Look there.

There is also an OGL version called Cepheus Engine that is officially "pay what you want".

>>54956347
Isn't T5 the mega-autism one with QREBS?

>>54956347

1. Didn't know about that! I usually play PF and sometimes my own custom TTRPGs (some based on Apocalypse World, some not,) so thanks for the trivia!

2. We're in a Starfinder thread, I figured "normal" in this context meant Pathfinder, 3.5. etc.

3. I've never slogged through the entirety of original Traveller, and I've never gotten in-depth with T5. Good to know!

>primary fighting style can't be changed
What bullshit

>>54957043
???
You mean soldiers?

>>54957062
Yeah

>>54957078
what is so bullshit about that

>>54957091
Why can't you change It? That doesn't make any sense thematically and seems to be just an arbitrary videogame rule

>>54957188
to make each soldier special in a way

>>54957188
The primary fighting style is the one your character probably spent years honing before they gained their first class level from whatever space-commoner is. Picking it gives weight to your character, and stops him from blending in with every other soldier if all of them were able to just swap around like you change skill sets in games.

It makes perfect sense, and it's far less video gamey than the alternative.

>>54957188
With multi-classing so open, turning six classes with slight variations into one class with Styles is the only way to keep people from dipping too much.
In a setting with cybernetics and brain grafting, retraining should be trivial. House rule and move on to more important issues, like the task numbers being fucked.

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>>54956186
Literally Hitler, anon.

Someone is doing RPG minis for this game. Is anyone going to do ship minis?

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Gentlemen, this is how I wish to Android Mechanic Pilot

>>54955784
mind to elaborate on that, what did i miss ?

Any leaks of the GM screen yet?

11pb or 13pb?

15pb is definitely too much. It trivializes racial bonuses by allowing anyone to take two 10s to 18, only the penalty will be very relevant.

At 13pb you only need to care about one of your bonuses to go hard into your main scores, but it still might be too easy getting things up and 16s will be way easy to come by if you decide to take advantage of those +2s at 5.

At 11pb though you're really not much different from 10, naturally, and buying up a race with a penalty stays difficult in how it impacts your spread.

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>no expectations for the game
>still let down

I think I'm done with anything Paizo makes. Pathfinder nearly burned me out on tabletop RPGs forever back in 2014, and Starfinder looks to turn out to be a gigantic fucking mess.

Polite sage.

How did Paizo fuck up the math so badly?

>>54959755
I just saged with an image. Sorry.

>>54959759
I'm not really that convinced Paizo fucked up the math on Starfinder. I think that the math might've been fucked up on Pathfinder and we're so used to it that we don't understand the fixes here.

>>54959759
other than some space combat stuff?

>>54959680
We're playing with 15pb; trivializing the racial bonuses is actually an upside to me / my group.

On the other hand we played PF with the rule that you can just pick whatever race's stats and then play something else aslong as it makes sense.

Different tastes I guess.

>>54955695
>Ship actions/roles are a mess, and levelling up literally makes doing the same thing you just did right before you levelled (without changing ANYTHING about the ship so the fucktards on the forums can go fuck themselves in a fire with their already-shitty-even-were-it-not-for-this "more complex and bigger ship lol) progressively less likely to succeed even if you're specializing in your bonuses to that...
So, gaining levels makes check DCs higher? That's 4e levels of stupid.

>>54959846
That's TRUENAMER levels of stupid.

>>54959755
Then get the fuck out of here.

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>>54959846
The best part of starship combat is that the Stunt to improve your ship's AC and missile profile gives you a fixed +2, but letting the computer handle it with the 'glide' minor action gives you a scaling bonus of half your Pilot's Pilot ranks.

Yes, listing lazily to the left is considered the ultimate defensive maneuvre in the Golarion System.

Do quickened spells provoke AoOs in this game?

Are spell cache's free like wizard arcane bond?

>>54960573
Why only half ranks? The Glide action listed on pg326 indicates full piloting ranks. But other than that, yes; as long as the pilot does nothing, they massively boost your starships defenses much higher than actively taking evasive manauveres. Thos really makes no sense, unless the intention was to take the piloting skill of the ships computer into account, rather than the passively observing crew pilot?

>>54960573
You know that starship AC always includes the pilot's full skill bonus, right? 10+ranks+armor+size+maneuvers?

Half ranks would be a pretty big negative.

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>>54961484
I did not know that, because I'm retaaaaarded. Sorry.

I want to make love to my ship's computer!

>>54961518
Easy there, Adam Susan, those ports are not for that kind of entry.

>>54961484
That makes more sense.

>>54961572
But I wanna give her the USB!

>>54961518
I want to downgrade my computer from a Mk. 10 Duonade, step by step, without telling her!

I want her to wake up and be just a little bit less useful, a little bit slower, apologizing for being stupid whenever she can't help the crew as much anymore!

I want her to beg for another 'upgrade' night after night when she keeps getting worse at the same tasks, slowly growing more dependant as she grows dumber and dumber!

I want to install my shipfu in a slutbot after she's become a functional retard, telling her she can still be helpful one more way when she's too stupid to say no!

>>54961609
You'd bypass her firewall, which means you'd give her malware. Do you want to infect your computer or do you want it to do calculations to catch those dirty wrongthinkers and undesirables?

>>54959792
Sorry but that's bullshit.
Ignore pathfinder for a moment and just actually look at the fucking math for fucking starfinder.

Its retardation stands alone. It's not only retarded in comparison to pathfinder.

When actions that anyone can somewhat-reliably pull off (very reliably or almost guaranteed if specialized in it) at low levels gradually become impossible even for hyper-specialists like operatives at the highest levels to even succeed at, merely by factor of having levelled up, YOU DONE FUCKED UP NOW

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>>54962175
give me an example
i dont believe you

I'd like to play a Goblin mechanic or Envoy, is that a good idea /tg/?
I just want to play an obnoxious partier guy with a bunch of little robots/drones creating distracting lightshows, hologram shenanigans and playing loud music.

>>54962266
Envoy? Not sure how that would work, with a -4 penalty your saving throws and resolve points would be in the toilet.

>>54962204
Demand. Captain Action. By succeeding at an intimidate check, you give your crewmember a +4 to rolls to do what he was doing otherwise. DC...15+x2 Your Starships Tier. Say you're piloting a Norikama Dropship, Tier 8. That's DC 31. Alright. But what about something beefier? Say, a Vindicas Dreadnought (Tier 16). Have fun trying to hit a DC of 47.

Now, what kind of DCs can a character hit? To be fair, say you've actually picked a social class like Envoy to be your captain. Someone with CHA 18 and a class bonus to Intimidate. You can at most put (Your Level) Ranks into a Skill. If the skill is a class skill, you get an additional +3 bonus. So, if you're a Level 16 Envoy (to match the level 16 Dreadnought), you've got, from skillpoints and CHA alone, a +23 to Intimidate. Congrats! You only need to roll a 24 to succeed! But how do we boost further? Slap Expertise from Envoy into Intimidate. You're adding another +2 and rolling an extra 1d8 on intimidate checks. If you've got Skill Focus Intimidate, you get to roll expertise die twice and pick highest, and get a +3.

So, tallied bonuses; +27 to Intimidate, Rolling 2d8 take the highest and adding, vs DC 47. You could get away with a barely squeaked out success if you roll 12 and an 8, 13 and 7, 14 and 6, so on and so forth, to succeed at this roll at all. If you're not an Envoy? Get fucked. Why did you even try to be a Captain.

>>54962374
B-But pazio never does anything wrong!

>>54962374
Well. Shit.

>>54962312
would a gnome work for either class?

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>>54962175
so to patch a glitching system on a tier 15 starship is a DC 40 check.

a lvl 15 engineer has this as an engineer skill:
lvl 15
class skill 3
bypass 4
int 5
skill focus 2
droid assist 2

thats a 55% chance, which seems fine to me. that doesnt include magic items or other people helping or assisting, like the captain, or rerolls from class abilities.

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>>54962505
whoops, skill focus is +3 not +2
so 60% chance.
WITHOUT MAGIC ITEMS OR EQUIPEMENT AT ALL BTW.

>>54962505
This is a complete specialist (and it's a Mechanic not an Engineer, Engineer is the ship role he's taking at that moment. He could be the pilot instead). Trying to patch a glitched system requires one action.

Class abilities and items only affect crew actions if it explicitly states so in the ability. Bypass therefore does not apply here. The mechanic's drone or exocortex are class abilities and do not apply here.

Engineer has 15(ranks)+3(class)+5(Int)+2(Focus) = +25 and can succeed at this simplest grade of repairs on a 15+: 30% of the time.

A Malfunctioning system requires two actions and DC 45. He can then succeed at this 5% of the time. If class abilities COULD work then at least you would still have +31 and be capable of succeeding 40% of the time

A Wrecked system was DC 22 at level 1. Not an easy roll by any means. But by level 15, that is DC 50 even if the ship has remained entirely unchanged (so no 'it's bigger/more-complex now' excuse). A +25 cannot succeed.

The captain wishing to assist with diplomacy to give you a +2 to your roll requires a DC 15+Tier check, so DC30. If he's good at diplomacy he has a good chance of pulling this off, but a non-specialized character won't always succeed. A Demand (+4) or a moving speech (to give you a reroll instead) would be DC 45 however.

>>54962668
You can't use magic items or equipment at all.
And that was the easiest engineering check since more damaged systems are harder.

And you used to be better at making that roll: Back when the party was level 1 it was a DC 12 to fix a glitching system. It can still be point-for-point the same ship: DC increases when party gains levels, even if nothing else changes at all ever.

>>54962753
>>54962668
my bad as well, +26 with focus so 10% on the glitch.

10% is goddamn lame.

>>54962374
So what would you recommend over this Starfinder?

>>54962505
Page 322: Class abilities and items don't apply unless they specifically say so in their descriptions. Drone and Bypass don't so it's not even allowed to assist you.

>>54962841
any game with a space setting that's not this.

If you like this game its fine but anyone who thinks that the book is fine is cazy

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>They nerfed the charge action in starfinder
I guess they don't like melee combat huh?

Anyone have a PDF of the first adventure path? I want to use the monsters in it but I'd rather not pay 16$ for them.

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>>54962374
lvl 15 engineer:
lvl 15
class skill 3
int 5
skill focus 3
racial bonus 2
themeless 2
captain encourage 2

TOTAL bonus = +32

>>54962841
If you wanna go really star-trek, Ashen Stars has the right 'feel' to it system-wise. Lot of focus on clues and puzzlesolving and completely bullshitting things with the deflector dish.

If you don't give a rat's ass about ever touching starfighter combat in any way at all from any angle, the whole 'Edge of the Empire' (and its other splatbooks) from FFG are actually pretty good - just keep away from the retardation that is their ship system, that company is notorious when it comes to equipment rules.

Traveler has quite a bit of things stolen clean from it as one anon mentioned. There is a new Mongoose Traveler edition, which is the good stuff. Simple, and similar playstyle as what starfinder was going for and what most people wanting starfinder were probably hoping for. Not identical (it's less magicky though there's fairly extensive psi abilities if you go that way) but a lot of the same 'feel'.

Of course if what you want is to become powerful characters with even bigger ships, Rogue Trader is easily just as insane as anything you're used to in pathfinder and in my experience has made for some utterly amazing campaigns. It does specialize in 'larger-than-life' characters and obtaining anything 'item' (including ships) actually represents checking if you can obtain the full logistics train to keep it fully supplied and in top shape from this day forward.

Fragged Empire has pretty decent ship combat at smaller scales, and is like a slightly crunchier, more action-oriented equivalent to Ashen Stars. Pretty decent stuff.

>>54962902
I haven't had a chance to look into the books yet, how'd they do that?

>>54962777
Wrong: DC only increases with tier of the ship, not with the level.

Assuming the PC's have a ship of the same level is iffy - It seems like the idea is that tiers are the minimum level that you can get something, not that you need to have at-tier gear every level.

Also weird - The examples in the book for the combat section don't match their own numbers. Someone fucked something up, because the crew isn't adding their ship's tier to the checks they're trying to make.

>>54962958
Charge now gives -2 to attack and to AC.

>>54962958
Full actions in general consume swifts as well as moves and standards now, and charge now provides a -2 penalty to attack roll and to AC, with no benefits other than the charge movement itself.

I think people're reacting too harshly to this and a lot of other changes though. There's no doubt that there's some fucked math, but I think the system is still fundamentally better than Pathfinder has been throughout the entirety of its life.

>>54962374
Can't use expertise on a crew action.

>>54962983
Wait why- Does it not offer anything in exchange? I mean other than double-move-and-attack

>>54963002
It does not offer anything in exchange other than double-move-and-attack.

>>54962990
Oh, I asked too early. That's a fair way to look at it, but, I'd still question the need for that sort of change. Oh well, thank you very much for your input!

>>54962982
TIER OF SHIP = APL.

>When the characters' Average Party Level increases, so does the tier of their starship (see Table 9-1 Starship Base Statistics on page 294). The PCs receive a number of Build Points equal to their Build Points listed for the starship's new tier - those listed for its previous tier, which they can use to upgrade their starship.
>blah blah blah
>Some GMs might require the PCs to visit a safe, inhabited world before they can spend these Build points but this shouldn't be allowed to impact the campaign too much.

You don't even have to use the build points. You can stay in your starting shuttle, and because of some heavy ground combat while you were on the station, it just got harder to pilot than before.

>>54963002
Because you have to jump through all these hoops and the reward was being more accurate. So unless your enemy is reeeeeeeeally far away, then why bother? Why risk yourself when your attack will not only leave you isolated but also hurt your chances of hitting?

Fuck that shit I'll just take a move and attack action normally.

>>54962990
...I don't know.

Perhaps this is simply a matter of balancing sins. But to me, the Pathfinder CRB's sins are strange biases and design decisions.

The Starfinder CRB's sins are laziness and botched execution.

While I'm not saying the PF CRB didn't have its flaws and fuck-ups, the laziness seen seems a lot more damaging for SF, and you can find it everywhere- in its setting with the Gap, in its lack of playtesting, in how they chose to restrict equipment by an MMO-esque level arrangement.

I've run two SF games. It was fun to include some scifi tech in my fluff scenes. Vidscreens on an asteroid colony set to dark themes to indicate station's night. Getting shot in a capsule down into the atmosphere.

But it wasn't enough to make me want to invest the time necessary to play SF- not least because all the tools I use to make GMing PF easier don't exist yet.

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>>54962374
>>54962505
>>54962668
>>54962753
>>54962777
>>54962788
>>54962841
>>54962942
>>54962950

so there are some starship actions that are very difficult at higher levels, but some that dont increase in DC much at all.
encourage is easy to pass at high lvls.
but moving speech is hard
overpower is VERY hard
but target system is easy

you have to pick your action carefully based on the type of ship you are on. you cant do crazy shit when you are on a tier 15 battlecruiser, but you can easily do crazy shit when on a tier 5 transport.

i think it is fine

>>54962374
You can make up for this with a good computer system.

A tier 16 ship starts with, base, a rank 8 computer, and every round that rank 8 computer can give +8 to any skill check it wants during the round. If you've got a Duo, which - It's a fucking dreadnought, just spend the money already - Then you can add that to two skill checks a turn.

It sucks that it's a low chance but I'm assuming the computer systems are what's needed to make up, and there's probably equipment and crew bonuses that can be had in there somewhere. After all, most jobs in a Dreadnought have 12-45 people helping them out, it's ambiguous whether or not they're supposed to be rolling any Aid Another actions.

Last point - The only dreadnought in the book, the captain has a +33 base to intimidate, not a +28.

>>54963062
Most humanoid enemies will have a ranged option available at least. Depending on your class and armor the type of AC the ranged weapon will effect could make you be more likely to hit regardless as opposed to the AC their melee attacks will hit

>>54963062
That's the thing. The -2 is what you're paying for getting twice as far as before. And most people have guns so eh.

>>54963077
Yeah, but while some skill checks and stuff are fucked at high levels, Pathfinder is fucked at low levels in the worst ways.

Wizards and spellcasters completely dominate the game at all tiers of play and most martial and skill-based characters just wind up fucked by math early on and then fucked by specialism later on.

Starfinder seems like it's pretty messed up 10th level and on because of the skill check math, but on a baseline level the classes seem better balanced and despite the HP bloat the way that weapons scale probably helps to fight that.

The setting is lazy, but we knew that when the words "Space goblins" came out of Paizo's mouth.

>>54963061
Not that merely the tier of ship going up - even were it not based on level and nothing else - would necessarily ever even make sense: Why would a level 10 interceptor be so much worse (no matter WHAT the target or the target's tier is) at not provoking free attacks while flying through an enemy's square than a level 1 interceptor? Why is a level 20 shuttle DC 50 to divert auxiliary power to shields - even if it is exactly the same exact perfectly precisely exact identical shuttle to that level 1 shuttle next to it who can do it with a DC 12 for not only the exact same action but the exact same bonuses?

>>54963152
Paizo'as obsession with the dumb potatohead goblins of theirs is annoying.

>>54963151
>>54963125
Yeah that actually kind of justifies it now, though they can always guarded step on their turn and open up on you safely unless charging with a ranged weapon somehow ends with you in point blank.

>>54963152
I kind of have to wonder how much it feels 'better balanced' just on the basis that for once we have a decent Fighter (soldier). Perhaps other than that, matters are far worse than many think.

>>54963107
THAT TIER IS WHAT LEVEL YOUR PARTY IS.

If you guys own a tier 5 transport but you're level 15, it's a tier 15.

And that battlecruiser, transport, it doesn't matter. ALL of the same actions - including slide and maneuvering, are EXACTLY as difficult on a tier 15 supercarrier as they are on a tier 15 interceptor.

And the actions are becoming impossible at the same rate no matter what the ship is.

>>54963180
If they guarded step away, you can just guarded step after them. And given that you charged into melee with them and they're trying to get away, you're hopefully more inclined to fightan than they are.

>>54963077
There is a very clear lack of playtesting, but while I haven't given a single look into the setting, I think the new equipment system is far better than the old one. Pathfinder is filled with traps, there's really just one effective strategy for combat through DELETE and building to keep up with that is necessary to not waste endless hours of character to the volatile math.

Using your WBL efficiently on your weapon was one of the barriers in Pathfinder. Starfinder simplifies it, leaves more design space for future gear instead of the very limited viable options available in Pathfinder over years, and from all the playtesting I've done, it feels like the existing options are far better balanced too. There'll be people pushing to maximize their full round damage, but there're more reasons to consider one-handed weapons, potential builds around unwieldy weapons, or sacrificing damage for utilities since rocket tag isn't the name of the game.

A lot of the judgment on Starfinder seems to be treating things as though it were just Pathfinder in space, and while there's some stuff that's objectively true such as ship math being fucked, there're a lot of assumptions that I think are way too hasty. Combat has been far more tactical at all the ranges I've tested so far than it has ever been in my years of Pathfinder experience, and one of the biggest misconceptions I see around Starfinder discussion is that damage is king as it always was before.

>>54963210
The point was that breaking into melee isnt that rewarding since you can't keep them pinned enough to put them in positions that would otherwise force AoOs from the range attacks they make while you threaten them or force them to draw melee weapons in an attempt to fend you off.

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>>54963112
>>54963112
>>54963112

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS POST PLEASE
YOU GUYS ARE MISSING A +8 BONUS FROM THE SHIP COMPUTER

>>54963226
One thing I liked that they did was weapon fusions.

Since they exist as items on their own, you can just find a 'do a special thing' in a box, rather than 'sword that does a special thing'

And swap them around if you get the slightly more expensive ones.

>>54963246
If you wanna pin someone down, grab Step Up, and then Step Up and Strike. You charge in, bop them. They step away, you step after, bop them again for free.

>>54963107
Basic, basic actions. Transport or Battlecruiser matters not. It's in no way as if some ships make some actions easier or harder - that would actually make sense so they didn't do that.

You might think "oh this makes sense" at first glance when fixing a wrecked system on a Galaxy-class starship is more complicated than on a TIE-Fighter. But that assumed the crew of the enterprise vs namless faceless guy who explodes in the background of a dogfight scene. *All* actions based on tier become increasingly difficult for *both* vessels at the *same* exact rate and the *same* exact level of difficulty. If that completely mundane, stock TIE fighter is currently being flown by an ace pilot, it's currently *exactly* as difficult to repair as that galaxy-class starship, it's *exactly* as difficult to run through an enemy hex without being shot as that star-destroyer.

Angling shields is exactly as complicated and unlikely to succeed for Wedge Antiles in an XJ-series as it is for Palpatine himself on the Death Star.

>>54963273
limited actions per turn. computer can not give more than three +5s (if mark 5 trinode), no more, no less, OR can give two +6 to +10s.

And you could succeed on these checks without the computer more easily than with the computer at low levels.

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>>54963061
Wait a second... I feel a dark presence.

An evil force... A great darkness that I haven't felt in a long, long time...

>>54963357
Yeah, it's limited, but not all actions are as difficult as others. Some of them are just DC 10+Tier, which are ezpz to get finish out by yourself, even with an NPC crew member.

Managing performing difficult actions and performing simple ones turn by turn is, like, gameplay or something.

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>>54962175
>>54962204
>>54962374
>>54962438
>>54962452
>>54962498
>>54962505
>>54962668
>>54962753
>>54962788
>>54962842
>>54962883
>>54962942
>>54962982
>>54962983
>>54963061
>>54963107
>>54963077
>>54963112
>>54963152
>>54963195
>>54963193
>>54963210
>>54963226
>>54963273
>>54963312
>>54963357
you guys need to pay attention to the computer post please. you guys failed to include the computer bonus to your checks, which will be +8 for a high lvl ship. that bonus negates the issues that you are having.

that is all

>>54963361
The one where Ameiko looks like an ugly shit that's also some sort of philippine-nigger halfbreed instead of an actual asian?

>>54963361
Don't forget ship combat. Y'know, the boats?

They fucking sucked too!

>>54963397
>Quoting posts who had said nothing about the fucking spaceships

>>54963390
What used to be basic sci-fi actions like angling your shields gradually become difficult for shield-angling specialists to succeed and flatly impossible for more generalist characters. Actions are by comparison to the characters becoming more and more difficult, less and less likely to be successful.

You're leveling in reverse.

I wish I could play a Starfinder campaign with 13 PB and Dead Suns!

>>54963459
Speaking of Dead Suns, do campaign traits exist in Starfinder and if so, what are they?

>>54963397
You need to get your head out of your retarded fucking asshole you brainless moron.

The computers don't make up for those. And the bonus isn't to all actions. That +8 computer can be used twice a turn, and is only partially mitigating the increase in difficulty on the toughest actions.

Jesus fucking christ learn math instead of taking the one post from some paitard that made it sound like maybe the system isn't borked and screaming that it's your lord and fucking savior.

Fucking trash.

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>>54962374

You're forgetting something.

You CANNOT apply class features unless they SPECIFICALLY say they work on ship actions.

So yeah, your envoy? They can't use Expertise on ship actions.

Good fucking luck.

>>54963397
20 ranks
3 class skill
9 stat
8 computer

That's +40. 42 if your race gives a skill bonus, 45 with Focus. Still misses the D.C. 70 tasks every time.

>>54963473
Nothing like traits exist yet.

>First campaign in 15 hrs
>Still torn if my technomancer should have str or dex as his secondary stat
On one end the dueling sword is badass, but on the other, having nonexistent AC is terrifying specially when it starts at malfunctioning raygun zaptown.

>>54963488
Plus someone else is gonna need that computer. Maybe the gunner. Maybe the science officer. Now both of them have been used up and the pilot can't fly straight anymore. Hopefully the captain didn't waste that +8 just so he could finally give a +4 successfully to someone's action.

So Starfinder uses the Wound Points/Vigor system by default.

What if it also used KAC/EAC as DR?

>>54963499
They are probably scared of int to social skill like PF.

Operative Ysoki named Missile Mouse.

Bad idea or worst idea?

>>54963535
It would be a very dumb game

>>54963559

Technically, it would be RIFTS

i.e. a very dumb game

>>54963555
Strap missiles onto her and get immunity to explosions somehow
Make the Soldier toss her onto enemies.

>>54963555
Does he have a sapient fruit tree partner named Froot? Does Froot's vocabulary by chance only include "I" and "am" and "Froot"?

>>54963616
>other members of the party include a human envoy from Golarion whose references are 30 years out of date, and a Batista

>>54963616
I now know what the leadership feat is truly for.

>>54963650
>The party is called Sentinels of the star cluster

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>>54963555
>>54963616
>>54963650
>>54963677

Since starships and their problems are such a topic right now, how about something else in there? How would all of you handle boarding? There's no rule support for switching from abstract starship scale to personal scale, and the only acknowledgement they even give to the concept is to say that you can't teleport if either ship is moving.

How would you do it, /sfg/? Because the rules don't want you to.

>>54963879
I swear that at some point, some day, in some campaign, I will orchestrate a scenario to stop both ships in flight so that I can tele-board the enemy command.

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>>54963488
>20 ranks
>3 class skill
>9 stat
>8 computer
>That's +40. 42 if your race gives a skill bonus, 45 with Focus.
47 with theme bonus
49 with captain assist
im sure theres a random +1 somewhere

can hit DC 70 with a 20

>>54963879
It's not exactly a hard concept. Shoot the enemy ship until they can't fight back anymore, move ships adjacent to each other, DM draws map of two ships/enemy ship on conventional grid, commence encounter/s.

>>54963909
I can't wait for my technomancer to get animate dead so I can board an enemy ship with an army of spooky zombies.

>>54963879
Actually, is boarding even possible?

There's no rules regarding airlocks let alone docking. And if that shuttle's has to take down a shield before it can do so then forget it, it's going to take forever to punch through OR forever (at equal level fights) to destroy the would-be-boarders especially since such a small craft can't really put their build points in anything other than bigger shields and defense scores.

>>54963922
At tier 1 that's fine but at high levels that may just take all night unless you're both huge or greater capitals.

What are you gonna do, twin-coilgun a 320 down and hope they don't have an engineer diverting back to them?

>>54963966
Maybe a maneuver/action to merge shield bubbles?

>>54964004
Yeah I've plenty of ideas too but, right now there's nothing in the rules.

The fact that we're having to homebrew how to board another ship in a space system... what the hell happened with that dev team.

>>54963879
>How would you do it, /sfg/?

>disable enemy ship
>move into disabled ship hex
>"we board"
>GM opens up the tactical map for that ship, plus the airlock of our ship or the boarding shuttle
>"roll initiative"

This sort of falls apart if there's more than one hostile ship, because as far as I know there's no timescale for ship turns like there is for normal turns (6 seconds), so it would be impossible to coordinate the continued battle while the boarding party gets on board. It's basically limited to only a post-ship combat action, which is a hell of a lot less dynamic than boarding and forcefully becoming the captain of an enemy ship mid-fight to suddenly multiply friendly firepower.

They really should have added the Star Trek rule of "if the shields are up, you cannot teleport" or something like having to make a caster level check vs enemy TL to make boarding possible but not an necessarily super easy or an opening move. At the very least there should have been an abstracted boarding action where you do simplified combat rolls while grappling an enemy ship.

>>54964034
I need some kind of autistic write-up explaining everything wrong with ships.

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>The group is composed of military personnel
>Get into combat against intelligent enemies using similar level of technology
>Ask them to maintain noise and radio discipline
>Begin communicating in Sign
>Table suddenly quiet
>I'm the only one who took sign and tactile
>In a campaign the revolves around operators operating
Fucking normie randos

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>>54964119
>not having telepathy
normalfag

>>54964149
>Low tier Xcom- the campaign
>Telepathy

>>54964204

>literally two major PC races are telepathic.

>>54964113
Tier system is broken with level. Skill checks become too difficult around level 10, probably a bit earlier. Only weapons and thrusters matter; You can fill your ship with useless crew quarters, labs, or whatever else but they have absolutely no impact on mechanics, there's no built-in way to get the bonuses you need to succeed.

The ship levels up every time your party levels up, automagically, but you can't spend your points that make the ship better until you get back to a drydock (Unless your GM lets you). This means that the first shitty ship you game literally scales to you the entir egame, meaning that you're taking it against the baddest asses in the galaxy - Milennium falcon has the same level as the Death Star by the time you're ready for it.

TL:DR - It's the Caravan or Ship rules again, just as shitty, just as ill-thought out, only now a core rule. Ignore it and just use the X-Wing Minis game rules instead.

>>54964228
What part of Xcom don't you understand?
Humans first. Humans only!

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>>54964259
theres telepath stuff in xcom anon.
youre right tho, your buddies should have taken tacticool language

>>54964277
Its still low tier like I said, bullet shooting guns and kevlar against aaayys.

>>54964113
There's just so much.

For example you can't upgrade tiny ship weapons. There's rules on upgrading weapon mounts and then right at the end they turn right back around and say "none of this has anything to do with the majority of ships PCs are allowed to own or use because fuck you". Shields and defenses and to a much lesser extent HP grow and grow but there's no improvement in weapons. You also can't have side-arc installed weapons pointed forwards (so no x-wings for example who aim forwards but would lose the guns from damage to the side far more easily than front or rear).

The difference in engine growth vs size is pathetic: Tiny ships can get +1 to piloting with speed 6 (T6) engines. A colossal gets the same bonus from the same (C6) engines. Medium or larger ships can have +2 with rating 4s. The fastest engines are T14 which give -2 piloting, while Huge 10s, as fast as a huge can get, are still +0. They based the maneuver bonus on the speed rating and not the speed rating compared to the size, so that the medium dreadnought engines (C6) give +1, the fastest (C8) are still +0.

The actions well, ignoring the one guy pretending computers fix everything, the actions are based on multiplicative DC just like many skills (CR 10 encounter means stealth is against the higher of either 10+Perceptionbonus OR 30, usually the former because most creatures/groups/squads/whatever are specialized in perception but will still have a 30 if they're blind deaf and dumb)

Weapons are all over the place too. Tell me why anyone would ever use a light particle beam cannon over a coilgun when the coilgun has twice the range, virtually the same damage (0.5 less average) and costs 4 less BPs, using the same PCU. Or why the light particle cannon is in no way similar to its larger versions.

Or why fighters unlike every other ship MUST have a TL type weapon in one of their (maximum, not upgradeable past this) two front slots when even interceptors and racers don't need to.

>>54964294
If only this was the kind of game that allows and even encourages ignoring and replacing the rules with some sort of house rules.

If only.

>>54964335

'You can just houserule it' does not excuse poor game design.

>>54964294
Missiles are bad.

TL tends to be against 1-2 lower than AC on non-PC ships (it's an easy and cheap upgrade the stock ships shown in the book just don't take for some reason, plus there's science-officer actions to raise it too). However, succeeding on a hit only moves the weapon that much closer to the target (its speed) so beyond what would be the first rangeband of most guns, they'll need multiple rolls to actually hit. The weapon is lost if it ever rolls a miss.

IF the weapon finally hits, if you have a point-weapon you now get a free check to delete it anyways, and only if that also fails does it roll damage. Their damage is potentially double that of a normal gun on average, but they're limited-fire 5.

>>54964335
I mean if this were 5e in space then sure, but Pathfinder is pretty resistant to house rules as far as tabletop games go. I haven't dug into Starfinder enough to see if it's as much of a problem, but I'd be concerned about making house rules before understanding the ramifications.

>>54964335
"you can just houserule all of this" does not mean the rules are good at all.

It means "if you don't like it go write your own game", really. That's what they're saying. They put out complete trash, charge us for it, and say "well why don't YOU write the rules then?"

Then some people tell us how the houserules mean the game with the broken rules they had to houserule mean the game didn't have broken rules in the first place.

Stockholm Syndrome.

>>54964294
>Or why fighters unlike every other ship MUST have a TL type weapon in one of their (maximum, not upgradeable past this) two front slots when even interceptors and racers don't need to.

Looking at stats and crew and such, I *think* fighters are more supposed to be fighter-bombers, with the inceptor chassis being the actual standard dogfighter/anti-fighter setup.

>>54963397
>t. Jason Bulmahn

>>54964379
Could make sense in a way, but then shouldn't it be able to mount bigger bombs? An interceptor could load twin nuke launchers too.

>>54964415

You also get an aft arc weapon for a Fighter, though; I think the 'usual' loadout for a fighter would have something in the back, either a second 'bomb' type weapon or something to chase off interceptors with.

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>>54964113
>I need some kind of autistic write-up explaining everything wrong with ships.
the real problem is that there are anons that think they should be able to do barrel rolls in a battlecrusier because they are such amazing pilots.

>>54964442
yeah... yeah I'm starting to kinda see it too. But, you know what... urge to make big homebrew document rising.

I'm no NJolly but... this is pissing me off to "fix the kineticist" levels here.

>>54964467
Die in a fire.

>>54964113
Ignore the lying paizo-cumbucket: A fighter can't do barrel rolls any better than the dreadnought can at high levels. In fact, the dreadnought MIGHT be better at it if it's NPC-driven due to the crew bonuses.

>>54964475

Fuck man, I've done similar with the Envoy. Got a whole bolt-on casting/sub-class chassis set up to try to fix this shit.

Want to do the same to Solarian, but no idea how to start, really.

>>54964467
Maybe make the difficulty of skill checks scale up with ship size, rather than a ship's tier, eh?

>>54955411
>What kind of frontiers are you hoping to explore?
Those of alien space babes.

>How hard do you want the sci-fi on new planets?
How do you want to rate it? Going by TVTrope I'd like it about 2.5.

>>54964467
the problem is that you can't do barrel rolls in a fighter, either, because you're so high level your fighter craft spontaneously grew a few hundred extra upgrade points.

>>54964496
... Let's do this. I'm gonna need some input on everything that needs fixing in the starship chapter to get as much done as possible before I get bored and distracted

>>54964554

Short list: Skill DCs. No rules for Boarding. That stupid-ass teleportation rule (fuck you teleporting onto the enemy ship is cool as shit). Weapon rebalance gravely needed, as well as weapon scaling. Chassis should be re-invented from the ground up and more clearly defined and explained (fuck is an Explorer anyway? Just call it a long-haul freighter or something, fuck).

>>54964554
the ship rules can get fixed pretty easy, really - Fix the weapon mounts by making them work more loosely. Give a bit of detail to the difference between a fighter's forward-mounted wing weapons and the side fusillades of a battleship.

The scaling skill DC's should be based on the size of the ship, not the tier. Maybe make some more of the advanced crew actions, they've got a few but not enough.

Give the add-ons a reason to be there. Why should you ever have luxurious crew accommodations when there's no bonus? Give at least a +1 or something for a happy crew.

>>54964507
>>54964517
theres nothing stopping you from houseruling it you know

>>54964797
That doesn't stop the default rules being shit.

>>54964802
I mean it's first edition, of course there's stuff broken. There isn't a ruleset in existence that was perfect first try

>>54964797
Holy shit, are you really gonna pull the Oberoni Fallacy? You're really this fucking stupid? Get out.

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>>54964802
thats true but some pretty deep on the spectrum, like yourself, would have the emotional inability to just change it. the rules are a tool, anon, and tools can be shaped to achieve your goals.

>>54964838
*only someone

>>54964830
There was no attempt to make it not broken. It's obvious that they didn't playtest or even really think about this at all, they just shat out the first thing that came to mind and called it a day.

>>54964856
Paizo's always been sketchy on coming up with new systems on their own. Caravans, ship combat, kingdombuilding, now space battles...

>>54964778
Luxurious accommodations should probably give the ship one resolve point that can be used only for crew actions, or something like that maybe?

>>54964958
ormaybe they give... GASP.... roleplaying benefits
i know those cant be represented by dice, but they exist

>>54964958

My thoughts were '+1 to all ship actions for good, +2 for luxurious'. A simple but effective boost.

>>54955660
The space combat systems are the most glaringly obvious issue. We have yet to seem what exactly the monsters will be like because they are going to have a set of rules for building them based on their CR and you aren't going to calculate what they can do and what their modifiers are like PCs.

>>54964984
Much of the issues currently found are due to it not even using enemy CRs for DCs, but now that you mention it it's certainly possible that space-monsters are going to have bonuses that completely take the scaling into account... unlike players.

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are you guys sure the custom rig doesnt apply to starship engineering checks??? it seems like it should. that seems really really really wrong.

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>As the events of Crystalhue wind begin to wind down, you lay atop the quiet rooftop of the Dragon watching your misty breath float up, dispersing amongst the shining stars above. You focus on a particularly bright star, seeing hints of blue and red in its twinkle, but you notice something odd about its appearance. You prop yourself up on the slanted roof and squint at the star and begin to see... pixels? The closer you look, the more you notice the lines and seams appearing across the darkened night vista. In an instant the stars disappear from the sky and words appear across your field of view reading "Simulation ended." You lift the mask that covers your eyes and look around in confusion and see your crewmates sluggishly rising from their own beds, echoes of the virtual town of Sandpoint wind down inside their own synapses. Only the ship's navigation officer is already on her feet, eagerly studying star charts; the Tien woman sees you, still feeling a slight buzz from your implant, and flashes a smile in your direction. As you rub your eyes and bring the ship into proper focus all you can manage to utter is: "Really, Ameiko? Gnolls?"
As you may have gathered, those of us in SotJR have switched over to Starfinder for the past few weeks, playing an adapted version of Jade Regent set amongst the stars. We figured that we might as well update the general about how we've been doing so far via greentext. First let's reintroduce our Dramatis Personae, a group known as the Heroes of Sandpoint Station. This intrepid team unwittingly rose to station-wide fame when they turned away a Goblin attack on the sleepy little outpost in the frontier system of Varis.

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>>54965032
>Seht [Human Priest of Desna Mechanic 1 (exocortex) / Soldier 3 (sharpshoot)]
Captain and Owner of the starship Comet Chaser. Left his people (among whom he never truly felt at home) with the distinctively styled ship to find the fate that Desna had for him, he travelled the system with only his AI (the Mobile Operations Resource Intelligence, M.O.R.I. for short) to crew the vessel.
>Casimir Aldori [Human Spacefarer Soldier 4 (guard)]
Foreign exile spent most of his life travelling the stars with his wife. Settled down on Sandpoint Station, but fell into a deep depression after his wife was killed in a freak accident some years back.
>Corwin Brin [Human Mercenary Soldier 1 (blitz) / Envoy 3]
Moved with his father to Sandpoint Station at a young age. Fell in with the children of some of the station's most elite families, but watched them leave one by one for lives of adventure. Seeking his own adventure he travelled as a mercenary, but the things he saw out there left an indelible mark on him.
>Valeriya Deverin [Human Ace Pilot Mechanic 4 (drone)]
Daughter of Sandpoint Station's Commander, joined the military as soon as she was able and was shipped off to the nearby colony of Magnimar. Military life didn't suit her, so she returned home with a combat drone (Recon and Assault Vanguard Node) driven by the near-sentient AI she created from the bones of a standard Virtually Intelligent Logic Drive Engine program.
>Aranha [Human Bounty Hunter Operative 4 (ghost)]
Often mistaken for a Shirren, Aranha learned from her famous father how to take the form of a spider, she just never bothered to learn how to change back. Always one to find the silver lining in life's little foibles, she took her newfound abilities and used them to become one of the best trackers in the sector.

>>54963918
And that's a check you could hit 75+% of the time at level 3. Case proven.

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>>54965042
>Onryou Kaijitsu [Oni-Spawn Tiefling Priest of Irori Solarion 4]
Daughter of one of the wealthiest men on Sandpoint station and younger sister of Ameiko. Her demonic taint was always a mark of shame so she was kept as far from the public eye as possible until a wandering master took her on as a disciple. She followed him across the cluster learning the fighting styles of every culture she came across.
Our adventure begins with the Sandpoint Heroes being recalled by Commander Deverin, the Goblins of nearby the Brinestump nebula had recently hijacked a shipment of military-grade ship-to-ship munitions. If left to their own devices the beasts could do irreparable damage to the local shipping lanes. The Comet Chaser was dispatched into the nebula in an attempt to seize control of these weapons, sent to meet with Walthus Proudstump (an expert guide skilled in navigating the dense nebula).
>Comet Chaser arrives at the rendezvous point, but Walthus is nowhere to be found
>Scan the area and ping his ship's transponder, find it floating off course with a damaged life pod docked
>Raise comms with Walthus and see he's wounded, claims his electrical system was fried by an electrical fault from the vacant life pod
>Valeriya does a quick EVA to break the life pod free
>Dock with his ship and board, Corwin tends to his wounds while trying to ascertain the truth of what happened
>Walthus slams Corwin into the ground with surprising strength, Corwin feels blood being drained from him by Walthus' touch
>Onryou warns him that he's outnumbered and outgunned, but Walthus just laughs and threatens to kill us and take our ship
>Valeriya's drone jumps into action, blasting away with a laser barrage
>Onryou's glowing solar weapons tear into the creature's flesh
>Corwin forces his way off the ground and lifts the creature off the ground
>Casimir scores a killing blow, shooting the creature through the eye, it squirms and shrivels into its true form: a faceless stalker

>>54955411
Working on a rule for a LICHES IN SPACE.

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>>54965058
>The real Walthus emerges from a saferoom, badly injured
>Faceless stalker was in the life pod transmitting an SOS and ambushed him with hopes of stealing his ship
>Party gets him back on his feet and brings him aboard the Comet to guide them through the nebula
>Along the way get plenty of "false pings" on sensors, very spooky
>Find the Goblin mothership floating derelict with its airlock blown off
>Spacewalk across to the mothership leaving Walthus with the Comet, Aranha and Valeriya take the lead since they're the stealthiest members of the crew
>Ship is mostly abandoned, finding only a few small groups of Goblins trembling in fear of something they called the "Eating Ghost", but bridge is on lockdown
>Rest of the crew summoned while Valeriya hacks the bridge doors
>Goblin chief surrounded by guards taken by surprise
>Gunfire flies taking down the guards and a well placed stickybomb from Seht immobilizes the chief, allowing the crew to interrogate him

>>54965066
The Eox are probably going to get stats soon.

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>>54965072
>Chief's story goes as follows:
>>Goblins found derelict ship floating in the nebula, they looted it for treasure
>>Last night a group of ghosts boarded the ship, killing most of the crew and taking back the treasure
>As party presses for more information, chief struggles free and pulls out a grenade
>Most dive out of the room, but Onryou tries to smother the grenade taking nearly half her hit points in damage
>In the chief's private quarters, group finds an ancient treasure chest bearing the markings of Minkai (a distant system from which Onryou and Ameiko's ancestors once came)
>Inside the chest is a datapad with several waypoints inside the nebula marked
>Crew skuttles the mothership and brings the data back to Walthus who knows nothing about the chief's stories
>Navigate to the nearest waypoint to find the wrecked hulk of a ship, it's ancient and its spaceframe is barely intact, but the ship's nameplate remains mostly intact: "Kaijitsu Star"
>Onryou doesn't know why her family's name would be found on a wreck in the nebula, or how a Minkaian ship made it this far across the void
>On the way to the next navpoint, Comet hits a severe gravitation eddy and only makes it out without severe damage thanks to some expert piloting
>Find a second wreck, this one far more intact than the first with the name "Kaijitsu's Blossom"
>Session ends with Aranha, Valeriya and V.I.L.D.E.R.A.V.N. preparing to EVA over to this new mystery

>>54965032
>>54965042
>>54965058
>>54965072
>>54965089
No one fucking cares, please kill yourself.

>>54963455
This whole discussion makes me really sad.

What could we do to patch it? Can the system be fixed by making each ship's numbers fixed (as opposed to dependent on character level)? That would make characters have to buy new ships all the goddamn time but then it would hopefully make it feel like the basic actions are easier.

I guess ultimately I don't really know; I was really excited to DM this game but now I'm not, if it's just going to be a mechanical nightmare.

>>54965066
>>54965078
The eox are getting stats in March, if you can wait that long.

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>>54965042
>Mechanic 1 (exocortex) / Soldier 3

Literally no point to this.

>>54965001
seems really really wrong? absolutely
correct that it does not apply? absolutely.

Class abilities do not apply to starship stuff UNLESS they specifically say they do.

>>54962498
Are you asking for thematic reasons or mechanical ones?

>>54962950
>Ashen Stars
The book is a bit of a clusterfuck organizationally and grammatically. It is where SF got its mystery event, though.

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>>54965188
it doesnt apply to the starship tho.
it applies to your engineer check

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>>54965188
>>54965227
it applies to your engineer skill i mean.

Stop.
Playing.
d20.

>>54965244
Stop getting butthurt about badwrongfun.

>>54965244
Make me.

>>54965124
working on it on the number parts (just finished a piece on starship and personal scale interaction starting with pointing out starships are at least *STURDY OBJECTS* (so a T1 TIE/LN is hardness 7). Damage is halved against shields (a pistol is more of a navigational-deflection affair than a devastating threat) but hardness does not apply to them.

where's the damn conversion table for ship size to personal size? if it's missing I'll default to +4 (so tiny starship = huge creature and so on)?

So a level 1 character shooting a tier 1 racer with a pistol ain't doing so hot. Neither would a modern man with a 9mm trying to gut a humvee. Things really start to change with weapon specialization though.

A level 15 character with a 7d8 weapon, 15 BAB+Deadly Aim would be doing 54.5 (54) on average with weapon specialization on a hit. Against shields that's 27 damage, which is a lot more than fighter guns can do normally, but against hull (hardness 5+2*Tier=35) it's 19 damage. High level characters are a threat particularly to grounded vehicles, but the return-fire from a similar tier craft could end the battle then and there.

>>54965236
doesn't matter. Crew action, class ability. Does not apply.

again; it's completely retarded I agree. Just saying that's what the rules say.

>>54965351
Where's it say that anyway?

>>54965339
There's a sidebar for ship scale on 294. "Tiny" is 20-60 feet, and everything from there is not only larger, but increasingly so.

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>>54965124
A big part of the issue is that they removed a ton of things that were basic in pathfinder but gave you increases. Skill focus needs to scale again. There needs to be implants that give anywhere from +1 to +10 competence bonus to a skill.

That alone makes the easier checks reliable for a character that poured everything into making them work, and makes the higher-scaling checks possible but still require computer use to function.

One could argue that having a +10 skill implant would make checks too easy, but you're now spending an implant slot. Also, nobody wants to stack bonuses once they can reliably perform actions. The goal needs to be adding ways to hit the DCs without taking literally every bonus in the book.

>>54965397
Pic related. It seems intended to stop people from using odd abilities to affect starship combat, but they worded it in a way that, as written, states that nobody can use even their skill bonuses gained from their class Envoy/Operative/Mechanic/Technomancer class. No skill bonus abilities note that they can be used during ship combat, so I'm assuming they were just being stupid.

Fuck getting playtesters, they need proof readers more than anything.

>>54955660
On a positive note, I personally like the suggested character stat generation and at a glance the classes seem largely functional (though some are a good bit better than others). On the down side with out some creativity on the players part and some permissiveness on the GM's part at lot of skills aren't very useful while others are nearly required. Some skill suffer from having DCs that are harder than they probably should be. I think they could have handled feats better because while there aren't nearly as many trap options they still vary wildly and inconsistently in power.

>>54965397
Bottom of 322 leftmost column:
>Class features and Items affect crew actions only if specifically noted in the class feature or item.

So yeah. Even for something as stupid as moving backwards without changing facing at half speed, if you're level 20 (doesn't matter if it's an interceptor or Deep Space Fucking 9 you're at the helm of) you need to succeed a DC 50 check to pull it off.

>>54965464
In theory I actually appreciate having character sheets be less of a "ten different sources of +x per effect/ability/skill/save/etc", but they borked the math by simply removing the bonuses.

>>54965032
Fuck off, Disk

>>54963918
>47 with theme bonus
Theme bonuses typically only give +1 and only Ace Pilot give a bonus the a ship related skill.
>49 with captain assist
IF the captain makes that check, which eats up one of the two computer bonus for the round, which would be better off just going directly to the people making the useful checks.
>im sure theres a random +1 somewhere
Currently, there is no such bonus in the book, so as per RAW
>can hit DC 70 with a 20
No you can't at all. And even if you house ruled in +2 from some source it would only be a 5% chance of working so if players were actually trying to make such a check they would fail over, and over and over and it just wouldn't be fun.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13roWDS4O5EEqyf5LGO8tAvlm0cML2sd4p-X1GLu62Bg/edit
Yo /sfg/ I tried to make a vampire archetype. How does it look?

>>54965698
Its shit

>>54963390
>Some of them are just DC 10+Tier
No, lowest is DC 10 + two times the ships tier. There are no checks that are just DC 10+Tier.

>>54965704
Ok, why?

>>54965504
It's not even that they removed the bonuses, it's just that the difficulty of maneuvers is almost entirely unrelated to your actual ship.

>>54963390
Here's a breakdown of Paizo starship math:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10F-R-yGim9_DYfxpjKCmwf1tD7EikKyCtekRtZ5ezhc/edit?usp=sharing
As self-evident from the numbers, it's completely broken.
An easy substitution to make it work is replacing all the DC's in the following manner:
10+2*tier -> 10+1.5*tier
15+2*tier -> 15+1.5*tier
20+2*tier -> 20+1.5*tier
10+3*tier -> 25+1.5*tier
The new math then becomes this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GsIX_efmjsPa0zXH93Gt_pG38S50iLUvhJMsHJOr0Hg/edit?usp=sharing
As can easily be seen, this is much saner.

>>54963312
The issue is, the difficulty of the task goes up as the as the players get better even if the ship does not change in any way related to the task. And the difficulty climbs more sharply than the player's skill does.

>>54965339
>where's the damn conversion table for ship size to personal size? if it's missing I'll default to +4 (so tiny starship = huge creature and so on)?

Full table from page 294 (mentioned in >>54965452)
Size: Length
Tiny: 20-60ft
Small: 60-120ft
Medium: 120-300ft
Large: 300-800ft
Huge: 800-2000ft
Gargantuan: 2000-15000ft
Colossal: over 15000ft

>>54962990
>I think people're reacting too harshly to this
I agree, people are over looking how much stronger a single attack is in SF compared to PF due to how it's been rebalanced around the removal of iterative attacks. Since one attack is much more valuable, charging rose sharply in value, and certain class abilities remove the penalty. There is a reason Blitz Soldier is considered the most powerful melee build currently.

>>54965858
Proficiencies and strength to resolve are great and all, but I'm kind of wondering if +4 initiative is that good in Starfinder. I mean, going first is never going to be bad, but it feels much less game changing than it did in Pathfinder.

>>54965464
Part of the reason they put such restrictions on skill bonuses being used for ships is they wanted players to not need to spend non-ship related resources to be able to contribute to ship combat. So they simply removed those from the equation. Unfortunately they were under a lot of pressure to have the book ready to sell at GenCon, and some of the people on the team have said there were systems that they felt they needed to tear down and rebuild from scratch that they simply weren't allowed to fix because of this deadline.

>>54965464

Hmm While GMing I would rule that by "Class Features and Items" they mean things like Mechanic Tricks like how Portable Power and Quick Patch mention their starship uses, and not Overcharge.

Passive bonuses to skills like Bypass shouldn't *need* text mentioning use for starships because they don't affect crew actions, they affect your skill bonuses you roll *while* taking crew actions.

Additional Clauses for things like that would look stupid and unnecessary

"you gain +1 insight bonus to Computers and Engineering Skill Checks. This bonus works while attempting Crew actions aboard a starship."

Spoilered because it's shitposting.

>Open /pgg/ for the first time all day to see what it's like after the split
Can I just say that I am so happy we split?

>>54965920
>Something you're hoping to support for years to come
>Rush the product
>???

It's bad enough if you're rushing out something like Sonic 06 for christmas, but you just drop that and you're done with it, they'll have to deal with these shitty decisions for ages now.

>>54965909
Don't forget the +10 movement and being able to charge as a Standard action with no penalty at 5th level. So at 5th level that can mover 40, then charge for 80 so they have a threat range of 120 feet. And at 11th level they can full attack on a charge.

>>54965773
The difficulties in ship combat should be in the AC, the to-hit, and the damage bonuses scaling properly, not being able to do basic ship functions. These things shouldn't even be skill checks!

>>54965958
Kinda like everything that's ever been in Pathfinder, right?

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>>54955411
what skill should i take for my combat droid?
im thinking engineering, computers, stealth, or athletics

Something I'd like to point out about the starship rules discussion is, it's all assuming players will specialize in this shit. Which they won't do. The system needs to work even if people don't specialize in it to the exclusion of everything else, and this doesn't work even if they do. Christ, what a dumpster fire.

>>54965464
all I'm reading from this is that ship-controlling should always be relegated to NPCs.

Unskilled hireling suddenly gains +20 for piloting a tier 20 ship for free.

>>54966016
Willfully misreading passages will get you there too.

>>54965452
So approx. the Phantom is a Tiny, an X-Wing is a Small, Ghost is a Medium?

>>54966016
to be fair... It doesn't work on both sides.

The math is so busted, that by the time it matters how busted it is, NEITHER side can comfortably use most of these maneuvers. A few 'boss' encounters have some bullshit bonuses that let them accomplish things every so often, but that' spretty rare.

Turning all the combats into just movan' and shootan' is a little lame, but let's be totally honest - The best way to do this is for everyone to get their own fighter jet, and then everyone just plays through it like they would play through normal combat instead of fucking around with different roles and stuff. NO matter how good these abilities would be, action economy is still key.

>>54965244
d20 is fine, its companies who design for d20 who are for some reason inherently bad.

Do you suppose they made so many bad rules so that it forces people to make their own house rules?

Like a "we know we can't balance this right, and in a way everybody will agree with, so here's the wrongest thing we can come up with, which will force you to fix it in your own way" kind of thing?

>>54964999
looking at existing stat blocks that's exactly the case.

>>54964830
I feel like there was one I could bring up out of spite, and it's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't place it.

>>54966055
to be fair it's just things connected to 3.x

Pathfinder, 3.x, and now starfinder, and everything based on that licence blow. 4e was fine for what it was, a completely unrelated game, and 5e is doin' just fine for itself. True20 is way better balanced, and Fantasycraft fixed it's own asshole.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that if a Solarian using Skill Adept to get Engineering as a class skill will lose his +3 class skill bonus while attempting any Engineering Crew Actions because Skill Adept doesn't mention uses on Starships

because holy shit if you believe that.

>>54966101
That is literally what the rules state. We all immediately know that's wrong - We can rule it however we want - But it doesn't change that it's what the fucking book says.

>>54966064
>Do you suppose they made so many bad rules so that it forces people to make their own house rules?
I've only been following the arguments over how broken or not the Starship DCs are, and it seems like the only real problems are at high levels.
Makes me wonder if it was ever tested beyond 4th level.

Also going through the equipment lists, it's kind of ridiculous how little there is between levels two and seven.
Makes me wonder if they just expect literally everyone's equipment to bottleneck at that point or to have overpowered gear from adventuring by then.

>>54955411
a world that has a very high gravity...only the top most parts of mountains and plateus are inhabitable, the people live in large fortified cities and travel around in large airships. this would be a planet in a rogue trader campaign.

>>54966064
Apparently they saw the hate 5e got for not keeping Martial Fice and other fun things,

And decided not to have a public play test at all

>>54966101
That's a good question but I think by "Class features" they mean any of the things that show up on the class feature table for the class, which class skill bonuses are not a part of.

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>>54964598
>That stupid-ass teleportation rule (fuck you teleporting onto the enemy ship is cool as shit)
>Transwarp beaming

ShaggyDoggy

>>54966116
The equipment scaling is one of the things they definitely did get right. Scaling isn't linear.

People're going mad over the shit that's gone wrong but combat feels fucking great in this system.

>>54964507
personally, I just say make ship tier purely based on spent BP cost, and you can't pilot a tier higher than your level.

>>54965464

Honestly, I just don't think skill bonus increases from any source are "affecting" the crew action you're taking. I feel like that argument has been a reach from the start.

>>54964598

I thought I saw a sidebar or something for Boarding, were my eyes deceiving me?

Trying to find it now.

Hum.

Does using that rule to divide your BP among multiple ships actually reduce the tier and thus penalties?

Maybe they expected people to poot about in like, two or three ships...?

Let's ignore the numbers problem on ships for a moment. We all know it's kind of fucked, I'm sure there're a lot of ways to fix it, someone will codify a house rule sooner or later.

Are the other aspects of ship combat even worth salvaging this DC problem for though? I haven't gotten to play it yet, but at worse it looks like a clunky dragged out mess with all the rolls going around trying to break into each other's ships. At best, it looks like enough of a departure from regular combat that it'll be a mess getting players into it and so divorced from everything else that it might kill sessions even if it runs well.

>>54966188
I feel like the piloting maneuvers, even if the DCs weren't fucked, are oddly complex.

>>54965773
I'm not a big fan of tier overall, I'm hoping we can adjust things in less retarded fashion by at least snagging tier to the amount of build points USED (within each tier's range basically) as opposed to fucking current-APL.

>>54965778
Exactly. I don't think complexity of basic actions should really be more than X+Tier, not even 1.5x personally...

>>54965822
This converts to personal scale directly (probably medium+ is colossal) I imagine? bit busy to go digging it up

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>>54963616
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZzcY7ASQno

>>54966149
yeah. on the GROUND.

>>54966222
Hey, his name's Toucan Sam, thank you very much.

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>>54966175
Here ya go anon.
How can you stop a ship so that you can board

>>54963616
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/ghoran-19-rp/
>As a full-round action, a ghoran can expel its ghorus seed from an orifice in its abdomen. If planted in fertile ground and left undisturbed for 2d6 days, the seed grows into a healthy duplicate of the original ghoran, save that the duplicate can reallocate all of its skill ranks upon sprouting. Once a ghoran expels its seed, it gains 1 negative level, and it dies as soon as its duplicate sprouts. This duplicate replaces the previous ghoran character.

Wait this is actually 100% possible.

>>54963499
I kind of feel like themes are like traits on steroids. Maybe campaign themes?

Regarding the spaceship thing, I'm going to house rule it so the checks are based on the tier of the spaceship itself and not APL. The rules as written seem dumb and my ruling makes more sense. I think it might have been an error and it will be errata'd/FAQ'd soon. one can hope, anyway[/spoileer]

>>54966244
Tractor beam? They have those already. They make people stationary. Then you can teleport on.

>>54966246
Themes will definitely be a bit too much of a workload to make a spread for every campaign, but I'll definitely homebrew some as appropriate for every campaign I run going forward. I kind of expect traits proper to enter Starfinder sooner or later though.

>>54963555
>Operative Ysoki
>Not a Soldier
That forest trap scene was the only time I'd agree with you.

>>54966219
>This converts to personal scale directly (probably medium+ is colossal) I imagine? bit busy to go digging it up
Nope.
Huge 16–32 ft. 2–16 tons
Gargantuan 32–64 ft. 16–125 tons
Colossal 64 ft. or more 125 tons or more
So a small ship is the size of a colossal creature. Also, they actually got the square-cube law right on this chart like they have for year, how did they fuck it up with ships?

>>54966244
I'm okay with this on the magic side... After all everyone would just teleport over to the bridge and take over everything every fucking fight.

However we definitely need rules allowing transporters or teleport supported by a ship's targeting systems, into low energy areas of the target ship with shields down in the arc you'd "fire" into. Like say directly into the control section or main engineering or the rooms directly adjacent to the sensor array or a weapon pod is basically Power Word: Scrambled Eggs, but beaming into ten-forward, or random corridor 8b not too far from something important, or the entirety of Deck 11? Totally should be doable.

>>54966219
>>54966271
Chart is on page 256 btw.

>>54966244
is there a tractor beam equivalent?
if not what the heck is wrong with you paizo it's in literally every sci-fi universe, but then again so is rerouting power throughout the ship during a fight and you didn't allow that either,

>>54966285
The grav weapons can double as tractor beams, with some limits.

No equipping a tractor unit on your missile boat to completely mangle TIE/Ds though.

>>54966285
they allow it at low levels, it's just that it's something like DC fifty fucking five if you want to do it when you're level 20

>>54965698
Why are you doing this as an archetype? Dead Suns 1 establishes that templates exist.

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>>54966285
>so is rerouting power throughout the ship during a fight and you didn't allow that either,
Did you mean something else?

>>54966285
Tractor beam is a weapon property on one of the ship weapons. And you sort of can reroute "auxiliary" power, it's the simplest (DC 10 + 2 x tier) engineering crew action. Also science officers can rebalance the shield systems.

>>54966300
Basic Divert at 20 is 50
But Overpower (the spend-resolve one) is DC 70.

>>54966311
yeah I was talking about the rule where it was saying you had to spend time out of combat rewiring it all.

>>54966306
Dead Suns 1 establishes that monster grafts exist, which are principally different from archetypes and only applicable to NPC's.
This is intended for PC's, however, which is why it's an archetype.

>>54966306
I would assume because templates tend to have Level Adjustment, where as this is something you can more easily convince a GM to let you have because you have to trade some abilities to get the bonuses.

>>54966306
>>54966339
Principally different from templates I mean. Typo.

>>54966285
>is there a tractor beam equivalent?
Certain weapons have the tractor beam feature, but of course you have to damage the ship to use it. So there's no standalone tractor beam or grappling hook or whatever. Though for once the tier of your ship is helping you because the pilot DC to break free is 15+1.5T.

Speaking of dumb weapon features:
>tactical nukes cause low radiation
>heavy nukes cause medium radiation
>MEGANUKES cause NO radiation

Most of the weapons list is missed opportunities. There are several special weapon features that are only used ONCE despite how cool useful or cool they seem. There's only one Broad Arc weapon despite the fact that attacking 3/4 of arcs would be a great trade off feature (less damage for flexibility, for instance). There's only one Ripper weapon, even though the idea of having weapons good against hull but not shields would be great mechanically (was good in Halo, would be neat here). There's also only one Vortex weapon, you'd think that "Vortex Torpedoes" would be a rad weapon but no it doesn't exist. There's also only one quantum torpedo.

There's also the two array weapons, which are honestly kind of dumb. They take up two weapon slots, and you have to target EVERYTHING in range. Being forced to target everyone in a cone was bad when it was the rule for automatics (basically implies the only way to fire an automatic is to sweep it 90 degrees while holding the trigger instead of, say, controlled bursts or in a focused area), and it's still dumb when applied to starships, perhaps even more stupid given the vastness of space and targeting computers.

I have a question, does it say you can't have more than one computer on the ship? Because if you could have multiple computers that would in fact be a huge help to the skill DC problem. I'm assuming it does in fact say that somewhere because screw the players, but if it doesn't that would allow more than 2 people to get the skill checks...

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>>54955411
guys wait a minute,
you can intentionally LOWER your ship tier by taking on another PC and keeping them at lvl 1

>>54966369
>MEGANUKES cause NO radiation
That makes sense, though.
The higher the yield of a nuclear weapon, the less radioactive fallout it leaves as the fuel is more efficiently consumed in the explosion.
That's literally how it works in real life - low yield nuclear weapons irradiate stuff much more than high yield ones.

>>54966418
Yes, if you can some how avoid them getting experience you can make all the checks easier by keeping a newby, shit PC around and making sure they stay that way. Why do you think Picard kept Wesley around?

>>54966418
Explains the redshirts, the Enterprise crew keeps dozens of level 1 people around to lower APL.

>>54966429
>tfw the redshirts are explained

>>54966260
Technomancer level or two.

>>54966429
>>54966434
>>54966435
>the captain routinely sends moderate lvl crew on dangerous missions so that they can be replaced with lvl 1 crew.

>>54966339
>Dead Suns 1 establishes
That they have a ways to go before this doesn't feel like PF with dodgy air.

>>54966434
An already-existing ship doesn't seem to LOSE build-points from lowered levels, so that might actually work.

Clearly not RAI, but very likely RAW. Sausage, Paizuri. Sausage.

>>54966418
>>54966429
>yfw THIS is the reason for wesley crusher
My eyes opened, my mind blown.

Someone know where I can find the Starfinder Core Rulebook Pawn Collection pdf?

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Three of the archetypes we're getting in March are Starknight, Skyfire Centurion, and Divine Champion.

What're you guys hoping to see here? All three of them sound pretty spell and sword to me.

>>54966424
>That's literally how it works in real life - low yield nuclear weapons irradiate stuff much more than high yield ones.
Somehow, I feel like I knew that but decided to complain about it anyway. Because god damn, we need more variety in starship weapons besides "this uses more BP and PCU but does more damage."

Also the lack of starship weapon descriptions doesn't help either. While I know what a bunch of stuff is based on previous scifi experience and plain intuition, I can't figure out some of the more obtuse weapon names. Like is a "laser net" a network of lasers (so more of an array) or a literal net made of lasers?

Oh and another thing I wrote down but forgot about: you get infinite light torpedoes. Granted, they're the lowest damage missile, but it's a strange exception to the rule.

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>>54966553
idk what an archetype is
that fluff book seems really cool tho.
the fluff in the PHB is 11/10

>>54966553
That's a fucking Naboo starfighter right on the cover. Paizo's getting sued into oblivion.

>>54966576
Yeah the green beams are coming out the backside, but... HOLY. FUCK.

And they copied some computer rules almost word for word as well from somewhere else IIRC someone saying in previous thread.

Is it just me or do personal upgrades not differentiate between mental and physical stats when it comes to the cap? So back in PF a cleric could get a +6 wis headband and a +6 con belt. In SF you're only allowed to boost one stat to +6 and if you ever had a secondary, the best you can do is give it the mk2 for a +4.

Am I missing something out?

>>54966607
No that's it. You can get ONE +6, ONE +4 and ONE +2.

>>54966607
You're not missing anything. The game is balanced around the assumption that you'll only have a +6, a +4, and a +2 from items.

>>54963488
Where are you getting DC 70 from? Like break down the math because I missed it apparently.

>>54966609
>>54966614
Are upgrade costs cumulative?
For example, will you only need to pay the difference if you wanted to upgrade your +2 whatever to a +4? Because I can foresee upgrading gear as you grow in level to be crazy expensive specially since you have to get a brand new gun everytime the old one becomes obsolete which can only be sold back for like 10%.

>>54966626
Personal upgrades you only have to pay the difference. Upgrading weapons, I think you have to get new ones completely... I'll have to look into it.

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>>54955411
do androids have their own android language? is common the same as the human language?

>>54966626
For attribute scores they're cumulative yeah. You can get them in varieties of magical crystals, brain implants, or magical brain slugs.

>>54966625
See:
>>54965773

>>54966660
Androids just get common. The book kind of does a poor job showing it.

>>54966660
Each person gets up to three languages, according to the bit on languages. Common, your racial language, and the language of your home planet, if it has one.

Androids don't have a racial language.

And your home planet is up to you.

>>54966666
Thank you Satan.

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>>54966679
i would think that androids would have the racial language of their creator, soo human.
but is human the same language as common?

>>54966625
Some of the starship action DCs are (10 + 3 x starship tier)
so (10 + 3 x 20)
Nobody is hitting a fucking DC 70, even at level cap.
Those DCs being multiplied by the ship's tier (which goes up automatically and almost entirely uncontrollably as you level) are fine at low levels, but they quickly grow to absurd numbers by the middle areas until they're just plain dumb at endgame levels.

Unless there are some upgrades we're missing or abilities/equipment that reduce DCs that haven't been noticed yet, anyone playing high level characters will be doing nothing but simple checkless maneuvers in starship combat.

>>54966625
Orders (Any Phase, Push)
At 6th level, you can grant an additional action to one member
of the crew by spending 1 Resolve Point and succeeding at a
difficult skill check at the beginning of the phase in which the
crew member would normally act. The type of check depends on
the role of the crew member targeted: a Computers check for a
science officer, an Engineering check for an engineer, a gunnery
check (see page 320) for a gunner, and a Piloting check for a
pilot. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + 3 × your starship’s tier.
If the check succeeds, the crew member can take two actions in
her role this round (both when she would normally act), but she
can’t take the same action twice. You can’t give yourself orders.
> DC of this check is equal to 10 + 3 × your starship’s tier.
For a Tier 20 ship that's 70. The engineer action Overpower has the same DC.

>>54966689
Yeah, human is common. There's also a "terran" languages from people from Earth but they're different.

>>54966553
divine champion is totally the paladin equivalent.

>>54966570
is THAT why photon torpedos show up so much

>>54966602
>And they copied some computer rules almost word for word as well from somewhere else IIRC someone saying in previous thread.
Maybe that's why ship DCs are so weird.

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>>54966602
>>54966739
Is that why the computer rules are so disconnected from the other equipment rules?

RAW, computers don't even have items levels (levels =/= tiers) and don't use batteries!

>>54966709
it's an additional action though. that's super powerful at high levels.

>>54966723
Actually, Terran is the language of the earth elemental plane. Not Earth.

We got nothing on Earth at this time.

>>54966570
Agreed on the weapon descriptions. What the hell is a Maser? A Graser?