/WMG/ Warmachine and Hordes General

First for Skorne whining.

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>Khador
>Using jacks

>>54076297
you seem new here. You're aware there was an edition change that incentivized taking robots in the robot fighting game, right?
http://www.allnewwar.com/

>>54075848
>reading Ossyan's fluff blurb
>Ghyrrshyld had his arcanists taking apart elf kids for "science"
Elf Hitler triple confirmed

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So how does one effectively use the Demolisher and Devastator?

And is it better to use their abilities and shooting on your caster's feat turn?

And between the Destroyer, Decimator and Demolisher, which one has better shooting?

>>54077249
>So how does one effectively use the Demolisher and Devastator?

You walk it forward. Sometimes you slam things.

>And between the Destroyer, Decimator and Demolisher, which one has better shooting?

I'd go with Destroyer. Longest range and sizeable AoE.

>>54077249
>So how does one effectively use the Demolisher and Devastator?
You don't

>>54079876

I hope that doesn't imply their trap options then.

Otherwise I'm getting one of those "if I want to keep the jack closed all the time, why am I being taxed points wise for their abilities and guns?" feelings.

>>54077249
Basically, you sit them on objectives and watch your opponent seethe inwardly.

Also, slam.

>>54077038
But Hitler never did that

>>54083349
Herr Mustache may not have personally ordered Mengele and friends to vivisect conscious child (and adult) prisoners for "research purposes", but the vague parallel is still there.

>>54079876
Bad player detected.

>>54083680
Perpetuating those "vague parallels" only helps to further reinforce the mountain of lies surrounding Germany in the 1930s and 40s.

Most people don't know about the easily Googled aerial photo of Auschwitz taken by a US plane in 1944 where you can see the bombs being dropped on the camp

>>54083805

/pol/ please go

Ded fred.

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>>54075848
I regret sticking closely to the studio scheme.

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>>54085598
As well you should. Khador lends itself really well to alternate colour schemes.

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>>54085598
>>54086935

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>>54086963

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>>54086983

>>54077249
Read which actions don't open it and use those.

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>>54087008
delet this

>>54079876
>ARM 23 on the defensive
>no KD no pushing
Nothing short of Dawnguard Sentinels with Scything Touch are going to put a dent in the thing before it blows its load, how is that not a potentially useful role?

>>54088813

>i'll brainstorm on the general and be glad to do it
>but I'd never take an anons neg as definitive for anything

On that note I've been baited by them successfully before and away from things that hit harder and are easier to kill, even after I noticed that as a thing they can do. Heavies with threat are heavies with threat.

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>>54088747
nyet

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>>54089118

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>>54089195

>>54085598

At least you paint. Most people in this game don't give a fuck

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>>54089226

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>>54089487

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>>54089523

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>>54089798

Zevanna Agha chuckled, "You mean, ze Chaos Emeralds?"

Seriously rough, but:

https://conflictchamber.com/pdf.html

"Fixes" card bundles from PP's card database so they print out in a more useful way.

>>54090822
>https://conflictchamber.com/pdf.html
Wow thats way superior. Il be sure to save this.

>>54090822

>Conflicanon continues to do a better job than PP does, unpaid

But appreciated.

>>54087555

Sounds like I'm better off picking something else then as those do not sound extremely useful.

>>54075848
>wasting all that time and effort on a nothing system when you could have been playing warhammer

>>54093401
>Warhammer
>2017
Did nobody tell you, anon?

>>54075848
Murder dolls are stupid.

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thoughts? I want to try a theme non-theme pairing, and I figure Lucant probably does it pretty well.

When the new CoC theme gets CID time I'll probably change this, though.

>>54093401
>>54093586
Can a man not play both games

>>54094488
Nope.

So, I'm working on a terrain system for a campaign and right now I<m trying to get land mines right. Here's what I've got so far.
When in a mine filed, you roll a D6 every time you move a full inch. On a 1, mine blows up. Place a 3" AOE on the model. After damage is resolved, model is knocked down.
What should the POW be? I'm hesitating in the range of 10 to 12. I want it to feel really lethal, but not go overboard. Other models in the AOE are hit at half POW.

>>54096306
Interestingly enough, there was a PP article about this very subject. Scroll down a bit, past the modelling section, and there are ideas for rules and whatnot. http://privateerpress.com/hobby/hobby-blog/minefields

>>54096349
>http://privateerpress.com/hobby/hobby-blog/minefields
I've actually seen this a while back while mindlessly browsing through shit.
> On a 1 or 2 a mine explodes and that the model suffers a POW 14 damage roll
jesus fucking christ that's gotta hurt. It's a land mine, not a goddamn seismic canon shell!

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How do I get better at doing freehand? Every time I try it just turns out looking like a garbage fire.

>>54089523
>>54089226
>>54089195
>>54089118
>>54087008
Illegal conversions pls go

>>54096638
you practice writing/drawing things with a brush instead of with a pen/pencil

>>54097153
None of the conversions I posted are illegal. Stormhammer (the Cygnar/Khador one) was explicitly made for PP old, more draconian, conversion policy; Robo-Legion was made as part of the driving force of PP's new conversion policy.

>>54097261
You are wildly misinformed about the stuff you're talking about

>Robo-Legion was made as part of the driving force of PP's new conversion policy

This army for example is from mid mk2 and is as illegal as it gets. Cygnar jacks are not Legion heavies.

>>54097518
RoboLegion was started in mid/late Mk2, yes. It was started along with a petition to change the conversion policy, and by the time the 2 Armies were finished, PP changed their conversion policy to what it currently is. Thus by the time this project was finished, it was a completely legal army.

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>>54097518
You sound like a miserable person. These conversions are fucking awesome, and I'd gladly play against them in any tournament.

Do you lack all joy from seeing cool custom models?

>>54098216
The thing is, regardless of their legality half a decade ago, these models are entirely legal today. This guy is literally just ree-ing about "non-regulation paint schemes".

Fuck, Stormhammer is just a Khador army painted blue with some cygnar stormcoils stapled on, and that Defender is just a stock defender with a gunswap and a cape. This guy is probably just a guildball-fag.

>>54098216
Your opinion is irrelevant. All that matters is the TOs and they will rule these as illegal. Sucks for the guy who put all the work but that's the way it works. TOs would rather see u unpainted armies and flat tables before dealing with this bullshit

>>54098273
>>54097912
I'm sorry but they are illegal. Don't do conversions like this and expect it to be legal. Thankfully PP at least got rid of the paint scheme nonsense. That was stupid but the conversion rules remain the same.

>>54097518
>Cygnar jacks are not Legion heavies.
Which is totally irrelevant under the "new" conversion policy.

How's Kryssa?

>>54099802
>>54099802
Supposedly good. But I don't get it.

>>54099733
You don't get it. Your conversion could be perfectly legal under the guidelines and it will still get banned.

>>54093207
Not everything has to be able to murder a whole army in order to be useful.

>>54100177
If it's not top tier competitive it's not worth playing

>>54100210
Man..Just holy SHIT is this general UTTERLY and DEEPLY awful at warmachine.

Is this the Warmachine Shortbus? Like they send off all the loosers and idiots into this general in order to be euthanized?

>>54100210
I know you're joking but that kind of attitude is why the game is dying.

>>54100210
You know what? Just for that I'm going to go buy a box of Ryssovass Defenders AND all their accompanying solos, because they look cool.

>>54100264
You're money anon. You'd get just much use out of tossing it in a dumpster and setting it on fire.

>>54100239
You can play bad stuff if you want anon, but you will lose. Because you're bad and should feel bad.

>>54100241
I'm not joking

>>54100347
>You can play bad stuff if you want anon, but you will lose. Because you're bad and should feel bad.

Man. Your like an oroboros of being up your own ass. So your arguing for not Using Devastators for no reason. Their not even uncompetative you retard. They are used quite Commonly!

>>54100386
Over juggernauts or Behemoth? Why bother? You're just making your list worse for the sake of including an overpriced jack that doesn't do anything.

If you want to play fucking casual mode Warhammer may be more your style.

>>54100443
>holding a zone and demanding the opponent commit more than it's cost to dealing with it
>not doing anything

I know it's bait but maybe some other Khador players will appreciate the advice.

>>54100347
>im not joking.
Then we all laughed harder.
Good to know you only tolorate the highest tier armyman play.
I can imagine you are a joy to play with.

>>54100495
Just TK, slam, push, whatever it out of the zone and move on? Pop feat and laugh at your opponent's stupid jack while you win in scenario?

Devastators are fucking scrub tier. There are so many good things you could be playing instead

>>54100544
>slam, push, whatever it out of the zone and move on?

You should have quit while you were ahead my man.

>>54089439
And rightly so. Painting appeals to so few people, making it a big deal is the mark of a cunt.

>>54100668
I'll be handing out points for painted lists and best painted prizes and there's nothing you can do to stop me. I want this game to be beautiful. It's already fun, but why settle?

>>54100347
>You can play bad stuff if you want anon, but you will lose. Because you're bad and should feel bad.
I'll let you in on a little secret: Good players play good lists. Excellent players invent good lists.

>>54100135
>You don't get it. Your conversion could be perfectly legal under the guidelines and it will still get banned.
And I could spontaneously explode into a bukkake of molten cheese, but I don't calculate that as incredibly likely.

>>54099362
>All that matters is the TOs and they will rule these as illegal.
You have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Do you even know at which events this very army was? Because I do.

>>54100735
The WTC where it got a special exception because the owner bribed the judge? I'm well aware anon

>>54100701
Sure, but you don't qualify as either of those. So why are you trying?

>>54100640
Nothing stops you from slamming or taking the devestator anon

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>>54100544
>push
>Devastator
>push

>>54100898
>Well DUH! You gotta Knock it down first! Then just use a Chain Weapon to bypass its armor! You scrubs know nothing of warmachine!

>>54100913
>Are you retarded anon? Knocked down models can't use shields, no need for chain waepon!

On a serious note, people should really notice that many competitive tourneys are won by people not using theme lists. Mainly for more diverse lists and using Mercs (Like Orin Midwinter).

So that's good at least for the people that want it.

>>54101558
I really hate theme lists. I don't care about playing against them but the lack of variation available seems so boring. I don't like running 3 units of the same thing. Shit is dull.

>>54101622
They're literally supposed to be thematic. Without theme lists someone could still roll up to a game and say LMAO IM USING GHOST PIRATES XDDD. The real problem is the effectiveness of skews and spam.

>>54101622
So dont. The idea is to expand them later.

Its not so much theme forces that are the problem. Its skews in general.

>>54101650
I get that themes are thematic, just saying I find them boring and people dismissing anything that ISN'T a theme list as being automatically terrible are dumb. PP really should have gone with the Trencher theme style from the start of Mk3 because at least then there would be enough units available to make themes less spammy.

Not that the Warmahorde community would, they're like worst aspects of the 40k "competitive" player base all condensed into one place. They ruin their own game by being overly competitive and calling anything that doesn't place in tournaments trash then wonder why no one likes their game. Love the game, the people that play it are an issue though.

>>54101715
Amen.

Its not even the super competative kings. Its the wannabe kings.

The ones that say "the devastatir sucks jugger only!"

>>54100681
Paint all you want. Celebrate and reward good painting. That's fine by me. Just recognise that you're in a subset who value style over substance. It's the people who act like everyone who doesn't paint is some kind of shitheel that are the cunts.

>>54101800
No, I'm pretty sure the people who don't paint their stuff are the cunts.

>>54101849
>>54101800
How about we respect those who paint and not insult the ones who dont?

Ghost Fleet is responsible for Khador giving up double Theme and forces people to tech for something that isn't 250 boxes. It's also a list that cannot beat Circle at all, balancing itself out in the end.

Overall, I think it's better for the game to have it around than if it didn't exist.

The only thing I actively dislike about Ghost Fleet, is the "cheating". Keeping 1 of your grunts out of formation and using that model to endlessly resupply your unit, should it die, is super dumb. This kind of loop-holing is exactly why PP removed Power Attacks and charges on friendly models, so I don't understand why it's in the game.

>>54100743
So you're talking out of your ass all day?

>>54102094
Hand out special prized among fully painted players. A lottery system with wins and painted lists giving you points works well for us.

>>54102108
I think it would be a good idea to only allow field promotion to models within formation. It's just rather tricky to implement since once th leader is destroyed, there is no longer any formation.

>>54102334
I would be willing to in exchange give up on the RFP against the leader thing. Because that falls into the same category.

>>54100347
>You'd get just much use out of tossing it in a dumpster and setting it on fire.

Are you retarded anon?

Ryssovas are pretty good. They're not Sentinels, but they're not as expensive as Sentinels either.

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Excuse me for asking dumb questions, but am I reading Sorscha 2's feat right?

If I have a Juggernaut, punching an ARM 18 Heavy with the POW 19 Ice axe and roll a 10, will I seriously do 22 damage?

>>54103233
Yes. But it speaks miles about Khadors Selection that she's generally viewed as "Eh".

Its an amazing feat, but funnily enough doesn't Synchronize the best with Winter Guard anymore.

>>54102922
>They're not Sentinels
And thus why they are garbage and belong in the trash

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>>54104728

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Happy Leaf Day!

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>>54105036

>>54100722
You don't attend many events I see. I guess you can do whatever you want in your basement but keep that shit where it belongs

>>54104983
We need a warmachine version of that meme.

Maybe a Reaper and a swamp horror?

>>54105068
Anyway its leaf erikson day plebian.

>>54105347
Which Gallows caster looks most like an old fisherman?

>>54107618
It should be Garryth or Aiakos or a Reaper/Malice.

>>54107907
Cryx has the advantage of having chained hooks and being the sort of dillweed faction that would shitpost for shitposting's sake, but Garryth's goofy knifepistols would be great for a bait meme of the "are you even trying" variety

>>54107618
It should almost just be Rask poking up from the bottom Right and a Reaper's or Galleon's harpoon coming in from the top Left.

>>54108052
Too bad the photoshop anon making Derlyss and/or general Cryx memes went silent ages ago. Constant shitposting does that to content production

>>54100177

I don't need it to get rid of an army, but I want something that I'm generally getting use out of all of it's abilities and aspects.

For that purpose, I'm not sure a Demolisher or Devastator work as I'm going to use of their guns or abilities one way or another, no matter how much they put them at risk of being destroyed.

If that is using them wrong, then it's time to look elsewhere, like the Destroyer, Decimator or Behemoth.

>>54108342
>I want something that I'm generally getting use out of all of it's abilities and aspects.

You're looking at this all wrong then. You don't judge a model by whether or not you get use out of all of its abilities. You judge it based on how well it fulfills a role.

So, the question is, what is the role you're looking to fill?

>>54108342
>I don't need it to get rid of an army, but I want something that I'm generally getting used out of all of its abilities and aspects.

So use it to Mulch infantry. Its good at that. Even with Dropped shields it's only Armor 19. Thats still very high.

>>54108945
>Lower PS than a Juggernaut

>>54109002
>he says, as though +2 str and free charges don't come stock in Skorne

>>54109203
>He thinks Beast Handlers cost 0 points!
>He thinks Beast Handlers aren't dead points for the first few turns!
>He thinks Skorne players don't auto lose to a stray blast landing on their Handlers!

>>54109280
>He thinks Beast Handlers aren't dead points for the first few turns!
Yeah, meanwhile the Juggernaut is pure gas turn 1 and 2 with his amazing ranged capability

>>54109290
Are you implying the Desert Hydra has amazing ranged capabilities or something?

>>54109002

Doesn't it have more attacks than a Juggernaut though?

>>54108491

>So, the question is, what is the role you're looking to fill?

Based on what I've heard so far, I'm not sure I can find a role for either of them.

>>54097153

Oh shut the fuck up you joyless shitpail.

>>54109302
It certainly has more than the Juggernaut. Dhunia help the infantry unit that tries to jam the garg with a corrosion spray.
I just want to know why we're comparing a infantry-melting, anti-shooting utility, multi-initial garg to a generic Khador beatstick in the first place.
>waaaaa my garg with a million attacks doesn't hit as hard as an SPD4 armorcracker aaaaaaaaah

>>54109668
The answer is Skorne.
The answer is always Skorne.

>>54109668
A better comparison would be:

>3 juggernauts
vs.
>1 Desert Hydra

Has anyone here actually paid the Chain Attack guys for those Faction episodes they just threw up?

>>54109610
What are you talking about? Devs and Demolishers have their uses as people have already pointed out. They're really good at not dying. Plant those fuckers in a zone or on an objective.

You can also dick around with enemy positioning with Bulldoze and slams. And it's not like you CAN'T use the guns or Rain of Death or just punch things, it's just that's not the reason you take them.

>>54108025
Shut the fuck up Retrifag, your faction is ten times more annoying to play against and all you faggots are insufferable.

>>54110197
But I thought Ret wasn't a real faction. Why you mad doe

>>54110197
I was taking from a fluff perspective. No need to get so defensive, Cryxfriend :^)

>>54110197
>Shut the fuck up Retrifag, your faction is ten times more annoying to play against

Literally nothing is more annoying to play right now than Ghost Fleet.

Also, seriously, don't be an idiot. Ret is a high tier faction right now but I can't think of a single truly OP unit or warcaster in their lineup. They have consistently good stuff that works, rather than a bunch of good stuff, a bunch of super OP stuff, and a bunch of trash nobody uses.

>>54111083
>Consistenlt good stuff that works
Daemons, Nayl, Destors and Destor Thanes would like a word.

>>54111186
>only Ret unit+solo set with honest to god Skornergy
Being Destor is suffering

>>54110197
See? This is where we need our Bait.png to be.

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>>54109958

>it's just that's not the reason you take them.

So if I'm looking for something that hits hard in melee or shooting, I'm looking in the wrong place?

> Bulldoze and slams.

I kind of had the Spriggan and Marauder in mind for that.

>>54109775

Hydra has that one, if it starts hitting first.

>although if you add an agonizer, or a warlock with an armor buff, or both...

>>54112770
If you're adding an agonizer alone, the Khador team has another 8 points to play with (3 juggs is actually 2 pts down). At which point you're starting to get into an area where the sheer efficiency of the juggs might overwhelm it. And warcasters can skew it heavily on Khador as well.

>>54109905
I was thinking about. It's like 7ish hours of content and is to raise money for the WTC

Why do Warma gags insist on playing this game on ugly, flat tables? It's just ugly looking and I don't understand the appeal even if it is easier to measure.

Why even ay with models at that point?

>>54109280
Skorne whiners pls go

>>54113614
You're talking about a game with 1/4th of an inch can be the difference between winning and losing a game.

That's why they play on flat tables.

>>54113765
So why play with models then and not empty bases or card board print outs? Surely that would allow you to be even more accurate. I already see a lot of people at tournaments playing with mostly proxy bases.

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Who complains more:
Trollbloods or Skorne?
Who probably deserves to complain more?

>>54114522
Skorne complains more because it's part of their faction culture. Trollbloods deserve to complain more because they win significantly less tournaments and even when they do win they only bring less diverse models
.

>>54114522
>Who complains more: Trollbloods or Skorne?
Depends. Trolls are more passive aggressive with their complaints than Skorne are, so while Skorne may outwardly appear the most vocal of complainers that doesn't necessarily mean they are the ones lodging the most complaints. You'd also have to decide if you wish to include Mk2 complaints.

>Who probably deserves to complain more?
Depends on the topic. Each faction has legitimate complaints in different areas. Trolls can argue their tiers are less than spectacular, effectively giving them Ghetto Family Reunion, Ghetto Runes of War/Ghetto Evolutionary Elementalism, and a Gunnbjorn tier. None of those are exactly gonna be as prominent as Ghost Fleet or Storm Division. That said, Skorne has 1 theme. And aren't getting their other 2 until September. By then Cygnar and Trolls will have 4, most factions will have 3 and even Grymkin will have 2. With themes becoming such a significant factor in play, until the Skorne themes drop they have a legitimate complaint.

>>54112719
The Spriggan is overcosted and bad. Don't use the Spriggan.

Question do Ryovass Defenders or DG Sentinals work better with Rahn? Ryovass give a reason to take Nyss Priests, but I don't know if that is worth relying on tough to improve survivablility.

>>54114057
That is some weak-ass bait my mans

>>54111186
Daemons are actually good with certain casters.

Nayl and Destors are indeed shit, though, I forgot about them. And I forgot that the previously amazing Destor Thane was pointlessly sacrificed in order to make Destors seem better.

>>54114522
Cryx.

>>54116048
Sentinels work better, but, then again, Sentinels are more expensive.

Ryssovas are better if you want to stack DEF from stuff like Artificer Force Walls.

>>54116400
We certainly complain more, but don't really deserve to. Ghost Fleet gives us at least one solid competitive option and with the recent CID tweaks now brought into the main game, I'm happy with where the faction is on a more casual level as well.

>>54109905
>Paying for autistic screeching about a toy soldier game

Ok, get a life

>>54114057

This isn't a hobby game. It's basically a board game, no one really gives a shit about how their models or game looks.

If you want something that looks pretty and is narrative, WH 40k and Infinity are the way to go. This is a board game.

>>54113004

Yeah, KISS. Hydra out-threats comfortably enough that on most tables it can park outside charge range and do a combined spray until the Juggernauts send at least one of their number into it's melee threat to set up a charge. Even after it takes the bait and enters charge range of the rest of them, a hydra will beat two Juggernauts even if it gets charged first.

Privacy error on Conflictchamber.

Conflictanon, is everything alright?

>>54117392

>if it doesn't take the bait, Juggernaut #1 charges and fixes the Hydra in place. Hydra kills it on its turn, but then the other two Juggernauts get a charge having set up in the meanwhile, and Khador takes it.
>really, this is why Warnoun on Warnoun fights are for suckers
>bring some infantry

You know what Juggernauts can't do? Unjam themselves from a shitload of fucking infantry.

I'm regularly playing against a Steelhead merc list with my 8-jacks theme bullshit and basically every game, my Marauders and Juggernauts get stuck in those Steelheads the whole game.

>>54117421
Shit, working on it

>>54116839
>no one really gives a shit about how their models or game looks.

I do. Many people do.

>>54117421
>>54117477

Should be working now.

And yeah, everything's fine, I was just updating the certificate while leaving the office Friday (since it expired yesterday), didn't get done, and promptly forgot about it before getting home.

>54097153
>illegal
Prove it.

Also, not gonna hand out my (You)s that easily, troll. Get thee hence.

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>>54117477
>>54117645
You are the best Conflictanon.

>>54117605
Nah you're the exception.

This is a competitive board game, don't like it, get out.

>>54118014
I'm staying right here. With my painted miniatures.

>>54115008
at that point in time, though, Convergence will have JUST finished testing their second theme. I don't expect them to actually flesh it out enough to drop it on the table until September at the earliest, so I don't understand why Skorneposters think they have shit to complain about. "waah, we've only got one list! It's not that good!" nigga Convergence only sees competitive play WITH our theme, out of it we seem to get shitstomped for some reason that is honestly beyond me.

>>54118163
>WHY DOES MY LIMITED RELEASE FACTION NOT HAVE AS MANY RELEASES AS OTHER FACTIONS
This is you. Skorne players actually have legitimate complaints to make. You don't.

>>54118492

Although I'm not sure where these complaining Skorne players actually *are*. IRL they seem less salty than they were mk2.

>>54108945

Well, that's one way to use flayer canons.

>>54118903
Don't let Mordikaar-anon hear you say that

>>54120293

I might be Mordikaar-anon, and I'm not complaining about Skorne. I did spend much of a thread trying to explain how he's a hot mess to design for and play now, and his feat got nerfed because of other changes.

>The thing to bear in mind is that +DEF and Poltergeist (push back an attacker if it misses) together meaning a warnoun not going through a complete stack of focus or fury against a target
>but that the skorne warbeasts that is true for is very specific now, so strict list design rules
>for non-warbeasts the feat just means being missed outright, which a number of infantry can sort of manage against likely opposing models
>but anons need to let themselves understand that if if their warnoun isn't liable to miss a skorne warbeast before it's third attack, Mordikaar's feat is not working
>there was an anon that was all "boo-hoo, you're crying that you aren't immune to an alpha"
>BUT THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF HAVING A FEAT ANONS!
>POP FEAT/YOUR WARBEASTS CAN'T REALLY BE ALPHA'D BY ENEMY WARNOUNS FOR A TURN/END FEAT
>THAT'S HOW THIS GAME IS SUPPOSED TO WORK!
>NOT POP FEAT/GIVE OPPONENT A WARM FUZZY FEELING AS HE PERSEVERES THROUGH A MINOR NONIMAL CHALLENGE AND KILLS YOUR BATTLEGROUP!

They probably should have given him that thing Helios has, pushed back after a *successful* attack.

>>54121191
I suppose "push attacker after taking damage" sounds like a Skorne sort of thing.

Anons, question for a game happening right now, does poltergeist work against ranged attacks?

>>54121648
Yes.

>>54118163
CoC is fine outside of theme, it just turns out they got one of the best themes in the game.

>>54121664
Thank you.

>>54121648
It's just AN attack, not melee or ranged attack.
Works on both.

>>54118492
I'm not complaining that I've got less releases than anyone, I just don't get why Skorne players are bitching as much as they are. You've got a theme, and you're getting another two in September. You've got lots of models. Your faction isn't complete shit anymore. Welcome to the playing field; you can't complain about your gimp anymore, you're just bad.

I can't believe how bad premeasure has ruined this game.

Another anon said this a few days ago on here and my mates and I decided to go back to no pre-measure for a few games. Holy shit what a different that makes, the game is actually a bit tense.

>>54122366
Premasuring existed in Mk2 as well, it just required you to do more math and play a high FOC/Fury caster.

>>54122164
>I just don't get why Skorne players are bitching as much as they are.

Skorne has 1 theme list - a ranged theme list which is supported mainly by 2 casters (Rasheth and Morghoul2) and antithetical to faction identity (dakar came ou recentlyt/models werent commonly owned)
Skorne's command book still isn't out
Competitively, Skorne is stale at the moment, pretty much hinging around Makeda2, Morghoul2, Rasheth and Zaadesh2
Not all your options can be shared across the competitive builds for these casters ie. Makeda2's ferox aren't really gonna sit with Rasheth's competitive gunline
Recent meta changes, in particular to jack heavy support has left Skorne in a poor state for piece trading heavies - a notable example is Harkevich who runs more heavies than you and trades up via Marauders/Juggernauts
Skorne's recent releases (Chiron and Morghoul3) are rather hard sells
Morghoul3 hinges around a cost 3 offensive on a Fury 6 with no arc node
Chiron suffers in that his PC puts him in competition with strong heavies/char heavies such as Despoiler or combinations of lights which save points (ie. Krea + Drake has same offensive output and is cheaper)
ADR season 6 trades out one of their strong competitive options and an otherwise moderate lock for a lock that meta is currently not good for (Hexeris2) and a mediocre lock (Morghoul3)
And leaves in Mordikaar (who hasn't really made a splash since Mk3 began) and Xekaar (who plays around as a Cost 3 offensive on a Fury 6)

Competitively, none of Skorne's main roster of warlocks can take advantage of ADR's biggest benefit which helped mitigate the lack of themeforces, and Skorne does not have themeforces and aren't seeing any soon which tentatively means that in many matchups they will be playing 12 to 15 pts down.

To add insult to injury, Trollbloods, Cygnar and Cryx received a new themeforce in the CID, Trolls will have finished testing a 4th theme and Grymkin's entire faction will be out before the Skorne themes drop.

>>54122366
Said noone ever.

>>54122388
>lock that meta is currently not good for
>(Hexeris2)
Are you drunk?

>Mordikaar, Zekaar
Yeah fuck those guys.

>>54122366
Lets also add random movement and gun ranges. Will increase the tension 10 times.

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>>54122388
Yeah, you're just bad. So many of these complaints are totally trivial and pointless. I only have the energy to explain why you're wrong, just trust that you're a moron

>>54122388
So wait, are you actually just complaining because you don't like the theme of your theme force? And you're jealous that other factions might have more?

What are you, 12?

>>54122825
Hexeris2's selling point is against High DEF infantry, he was literally made as a counter to Mk2 Winter Guard Deathstars to help plug Skorne's complete inability to fight them (with no Hexeris and no Incindiarii the go to method was slamming Kreas and Drakes over shit).

He sucks against anything high ARM. Low impact against Beast/Jack spam lists, and ineffective against the infantry that mostly gets played because they're like Dawnguard level tough. His go to method to deal with that type of infantry was taken away from him in Mk3 because Beatback no longer works when you kill a model, so you can't have Savage/Sentries beatback surf through whole units with Black Spot.

The only common list he's really got much traction against right now is Ghost Fleet, but really you could just play Rasheth into that and not give a fuck anyway.

>>54122825
He's a High DEF infantry spam counter. Iron Flesh Kayazy and shit from Mk2.

Mk3 killed that off and in doing so killed of Hexeris2's purpose in life. He's not great right now.

>>54123229

He's a Banishing ward caster that can play a generic game well enough using faction resources, and then there's his having RFP on a 14-inch stick.

>>54123229
He's also a mass infantry counter, like, say, Ghost Fleet.

Bonus points for BW being super good against Denny.

>>54123301
That's Hexy1 with the RFP.

>>54123313
>That's Hexy1 with the RFP.

Hellfire.

>>54122366
Yeah, I can't imagine anything more enjoyable than going to a store and arguing with strangers I met and played for the first time about decimals.

>>54123418
Hellfire is RFP, yes, but it's hardly on a 14" stick.

Hexy1's feat would be better described that way.

>>54122366
>the game is actually a bit tense.
Yeah... This just means your bad anon. There's no reason anything should be tense. If you know what you can and cannot measure there's very little to no risk in the game

>>54123706

>Hellfire is RFP, yes, but it's hardly on a 14" stick.

Battlegroup channeller.

it's not super important but why the fuck don't croaks have leap?

>>54124382
I am aware of Hexy2's abilities.

However, BG channeler doesn't have a defined 14" range, and once again, it is not an ability that can be defined as "on a stick".

>>54124410

Pretty damn sure battlegroup channeling and a RFP spell with Fury 7 is RFP on a 14 inch stick, anon.

>>54124410
>>54123706
You're trying really hard here to justify your Skorne bitching here. Just accept you're wrong and move on

>>54124544
>>54124528
The specific phrase is "14" RFP on a stick".

Channeling Hellfire both doesn't have a defined range and isn't really "on a stick", because it's a single spell that has tons of possible counters(not to suggest that Hellfire on Hexy2 is a bad spell to be casting, especially into Ghost Fleet, but it can hardly be described as universal).

Meanwhile, Hexy1 has a 14" control area feat that causes any enemy model killed in it to be RFP'd. So, in other words, 14" RFP on a stick.

This isn't a debate about something being good or bad, this is a debate about how the first poster got his shit wrong.

>>54124624

Same anon, anon. Hexy2 has RFP on a 14 inch stick.

>>54124665
No, he does not.

He can't, for example, RFP 20 models in a turn. He can't RFP models with Banishing Ward on them, or Sacred Ward. he can't RFP stealth models if he can't get close enough to them.

The are tons of limitations to the RFP he has.

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>Priest of Nyssor has cone of cold and the manliest of chins
>Lanyssa has Hunter's Mark and waifu power
>can't fit both into my combined arms list
Help

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rate my battle station

>>54125924
Stuff lying out or crammed in the drawer makes it look a touch haphazard, but has clear containment zones and isn't a shitheap like mine
9/10

>>54124712

He has an RFP mechanism. He can use it from up to 14 inches away than it normally gets used. He has RFP on a 14 inch stick.

"He does't have mass RFP" in no way interacts with, much less contradict "Hexeris 2 has RFP on a 14 inch stick."

>>54077249
Play Old Witch2. Put Reconstruct on One. Observe your opponent's seething frustration.

>>54099802
>>54099975
Kryssa can be made to be good (I'm currently tilting people with an Oracles list that is a pile of flying heavies) but pretty passive and fiddly. Her stock has gone down a bit now that some of our more niche casters can take Azrael in Children of the Dragon. Overall when she came out I was really down on her but she can turn things like Neraphs into actual heavies for a turn and her character beast is amazing. Overall I have been mainlining her and found her much better than I expected and enjoyable. Just don't expect her to do much herself and don't try the 16" jank assassination unless you're really desperate.

>>54126578
>and don't try the 16" jank assassination unless you're really desperate

Any tips on making it work, or is it really that unreliable?

>>54126578

i prefer fyanna 2 with flying spam. i think kryssa will be really good when we get our ogrun theme because her feat is amazing with warspears and azreal

>an industrialized military with sophisticated guns and magic

Vs

>a bunch of blue mutants throwing spears and setting shit on fire

The winner may surprise you.

>>54126712

can the blue mutants regenerate from almost any wound? i think that would skew the balance...

>>54126744
Yes but only 1/3 of the time.

>>54126774

that is to subdue them to the point of unconsciousness. they are really hard to kill and if not outright killed by something they will eventually completely heal from any wound. even lost limbs

>>54126630
The main problem is you're relying on getting a Crit on the charge attack and to get the full 16" she has to spend half her stack. If you want to have good odds of killing someone you need to still have her feat to get her to PS16. So, boosting the charge attack after +6" with Quickness leaves you with one fully boosted PS16 and (if you crit on that charge) two more unboosted PS16s, and then they're on fire. If you don't need Quickness she gets more attacks but still wants to Crit and only has a threat range of 10" with no pathfinder normally. Of course you can do things like activate a Seraph first to Slip Stream her forward before that but it's generally more of a threat you project if you hold your feat past your alpha strike than anything to bank on.

>>54126658
Fyanna2 is shaping up to be pretty bad in SR17 because her main game (at least for me) was a scenario push using her feat and high DEF models to ride out the crackback after her alpha. With the shift towards hard attrition and longer games in my opinion Fyanna2 suffers.

Kryssa isn't the end-all be-all of running flyers, but I've found that I get more work out of her four Neraphs and Azrael than I would in a similar loadout of things like Angelii under Fyanna2 (not having a hit buff means that even under Fury angelii probably want to boost the charge attack and that makes their overall output still less great than one would hope for a 17 point model that dies to a stiff breeze, in my experience).

Overall I think Fyanna2 is a better warlock (better abilities, more relevant spell list, etc) but for the sort of Cliff Racer-esue lists I've been running Kryssa's ability to alpha similarly costed warjacks off the table with her budget flyers and harass them with Azrael if they don't take the bait has worked out better for my style of play. Both of them are better warlocks than I expected. for my playstyle Kryssa has been performing better in the context of the CID SR17.

>>54126968

I can see where you're coming from. I think she's turned into an assassination caster. you still push scenario and force your opponent into making a dumb move that you capitalize on. of course I put her up to practice our adr casters.

>>54125924
creepybasement/10 would kidnap whore to force her to watch me paint.
Is that box for spraypainting?

>>54127069
It's a deconstructed light box. I need to safety pin the cloth back together

>>54122385

Absolutely not the same.

Gunline premeasuring is cancer.

>>54122875
So Mk 2 was as bad as random movement? You're a fucking idiot.

>>54123580
I played major cons in Mk 2. Number of times I had an argument about something that premeasuring would have solved = 0.

Now you can make an argument that LACK of premeasuring cost you the game. But in Mk 2 once you declared your action, you measured and either you were in or not.

If anything anon, I've seen premeasuring MAKE arguments about measuring come up. I'll give you a real life example;

Guy measures a distance, says ok this looks in. Opponent says ok.

later in the turn guy goes back to that movement, measures again. Now it's out. Was he wrong the first time or did the model move? Did he not give his opponent time to really see it? I've seen this play out.

Regardless, that's not my argument against premeasure...but premeasure hasn't solved any player arguments anon.

>>54123712
>there's no reason anything should be tense.

Abso--fucking--lutely there should be tense moments in a game. I'm not talking between players, I'm talking when you push your chips in an assassination run and watch your Goldberg machine play out. That's tense and fun as hell.

>>54127053
I've been trying a lot of different things just to try them out. Thags1 can be made into a devastating hard attrition caster (about the only one in Legion imo) and the changes to Children of the Dragon have brought Fyanna2 (getting Zuriel and Azrael in a theme that lets her take Swordsmen is a good deal imo) and Lylyth2 (Azrael and Bolt Throwers make for a fun combination) back onto the table. The lack of a Naga Nightlurker and/or a Seraph in CoD is really my only main complaint about its viability now. Having up to two heavies with anyone really makes it more attractive imo.

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>>54127680
(you)

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>>54127766
>Someone disagrees with me
>It's bait

>>54126441
>>54124624

Actually, the spell has a range of 10". If you're gonna argue that he can use it as a stick ignoring any obstructions that may between those two points, its more like RFP on a 24" stick.

>>54125924
My back hurts looking at that chair.

>>54127680
>Abso--fucking--lutely there should be tense moments in a game. I'm not talking between players, I'm talking when you push your chips in an assassination run and
I don't disagree, but if you think removing premeasuring adds that back in then you were just bad at mk2. There was litterally nothing in Mk2 you couldn't figure out by abusing the measurement rules in that edition of the game.

The current premeasuring rules just make it equal for everyone

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The ETC-winning team had three Skorne lists.

Discuss.

>>54128667
Skorne is not as bad as 4chan anons claim?
Stop the presses!

>>54128667
Nobody gives a fuck about the European meta

>>54128667
I wish people player casters I actually gave a shit about.
>TFW no one plays Hexy1 even though he's actually good now, and when I ask for advice its literally just "play Raaheth instead"

>>54128611

Nah anon, I've played since Mk 1. Your caster wasn't everywhere, not everyone had a Harby control area and units would still fall short model by model.

And I'm a good player, please don't assume I'm one of the internet experts here.

>>54128842
I'm rocking Hexy1 as a Grymkin counter in case they become meta dominant.

>>54128919
Hell, the new themes (Gravedigger, Storm Division with nerfed Stormlances, soon Northkin) will make infantry more prevalent and he can already wreck two heavies per turn in WoD yet people still shot on him!

>>54128945
In that sense, Hexy2 is a better drop.

>>54128884
You're operating under the assumption that the only thing you could premeasure was your caster's control area.

You would be incredibly wrong

>>54128919
>Grymkin
>Dominate
I imagine they'll follow along with mk2 CoC.

They'll see a pretty big spike at first and then simmer down to a few niche players and a couple strong lists. But nothing in Grymkin can unseat Cygnar or the various boogeyman lists that currently in the national competitive scene.

Locally, will of course vary wildly and that's really all you should worry about

>>54129278
I'm not so sure. Grymkin are getting all their shit right the fuck away, compared to CoC getting their power shit years later, and Grymkin have a lot of game into skew lists just by the nature of their mechanics.

>>54128842

Well, Raseth Winds of Death doesn't get rec'd nearly as much as it deserves.

>>54129126
Pray tell, what else could you measure.

Tell me how incredibly wrong I'd be with all the pre measuring you could do outside your caster's control area.

Command? During the units activation. Big deal.

>>54129409
Sure. And thanks for proving that you were bad at the game.

Things like command, contest range, melee range, the range of inconsequential attacks (I shoot that dude way out of range with this pistol I don't care about), spells and range attacks in general, control range, zone size and placement, the distances your opponent moves, and so on could all be measured pretty much anytime on the table.

Of course there's also just the trained eye of an experienced miniature gamer too.

A skilled player, keyword skilled, could use these to know any important range on the table during their turn.

There was zero risk for an experienced player when it came to measurement. That skill gap has now been closed for less experienced players.

>>54129530
>Things like command, contest range, melee range, the range of inconsequential attacks (I shoot that dude way out of range with this pistol I don't care about), spells and range attacks in general, control range, zone size and placement, the distances your opponent moves, and so on could all be measured pretty much anytime on the table.

You're just reaching anon.

The range of inconsequential attacks? Did you declare charges from 20 inches away then measure the range? Did you declare shots from 24 inches away on an 8" gun then measure range?

Because in a tournament in Mk2, a serious tournament, you would get a warning for that.

Then you go on about a skilled player using their eyes. Yep, that was originally my fucking point autist. It was 'skill', not I know exactly where to put my models. Which is less dynamic.

And even good players made mistakes with measuring, you can watch any battle report from Mk 2 and see top WTC players make mistakes.

Then again, you probably don't actually play the game. Just cruise forums and talk about how skilled you are. Probably fat too :^)

>>54129530
>Things like command, contest range, melee range,

That's hilarious and wasn't his point at all. In order:

Command was during units activation to individual troopers
Contest was from a flag, if the scenario had it and if it was actually relevant to determining range of guns
Melee range was almost inconsequential outside of free strikes and determining if something would be 4+. Even then, it mattered if you had reach or not and they did.


Premeasure did take skill out of the game, no doubt. And with it, probably some excitement.

>>54128667
I was a bit surprised at 3x Skorne. I as expecting 1-2x. Other than that, it's interesting to see GF under Coven.

>>54128804
Only PP doesn't. And I'm fine with that. It just means they'll keep buffing my faction because the US is too stupid to play them.

>>54126712
Frankly, I can't imagine Legion being a threat to anybody outside of ambushes and shit, kind of like Convergence and Grymkin.

>>54129591
You're not very bright, are you?

>The range of inconsequential attacks? Did you declare charges from 20 inches away then measure the range? Did you declare shots from 24 inches away on an 8" gun then measure range?
>Because in a tournament in Mk2, a serious tournament, you would get a warning for that.
You fail to understand how this works. You can declare an attack and then you must measure range. That is within the rules and you wouldn't get warnings for it.

It's OK though because it would rarely come to that because I forgot to mention that you also have litterally everything your opponent ever measured as well to help determine ranges.

Lastly
>And even good players made mistakes with measuring, you can watch any battle report from Mk 2 and see top WTC players make mistakes.
Sure people make mistakes but you're rarely, if ever, are going to see measuring mistakes from a player. They don't fail charges because they short half an inch.

>>54129624
You don't get it either. You can use all of those things to determine ranges as necessary in Mk2. You combine these with other knowledge gained during your opponent's turn to know ranges on the table.

Sure premeasure takes some skill out of the game but only for players that didn't know how to do it properly in mk2

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>>54129658
I think the world would be in big trouble if Everblight ever got his act together
Luckly, Everblight is an idiot so Immoren is fine.

>>54129712
I think his problem is that he's an avowed waifufag. His dragon hubris will never allow him to admit the most fundamental truth to himself:

More than one waifu, ruin your laifu.

>>54129736
I think the bigger issue is that all of the Legion warlocks have massive daddy issues
>Daddy why don't you love me
>Daddy why did you leave me to die and basically tell me to go fuck yourself
Hell, Everblight probably brings that with his Anthrac
>Daddy why don't you love me
>Daddy why are you trying to kill me
>Daddy why are you trying to eat me

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The totally accurate and 100% undisputed faction rankings by Chain Attack

>inb4 who?

1. Cygnar
2. Cryx
3. Legion
4. Khador
5/6. Circle and Ret
7. CoC
8. Protectorate
9. Mercs
10/11 Skorne and Minions
12. Trolls

You may now screech autistically amongst yourselves

>>54129658
The most gratifying story development I can think of would be for the Legion or the Protectorate or both to actually try and start some major shit with Rhul. Like Everblight burns and occupies a dwarf city, and Reznik starts besieging Horgenhold.

I just wanna see the dwarves get serious.

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>>54129770
>2. Cryx
Damn, Ghost Fleet is really doing work it seems
>12. Trolls
Feels bad man

>>54129755
Surprisingly enough, the dragon-centaur-golem actually seems perfectly stable and even well-adjusted.

>>54129770
>by Chain Attack
Well that explains everything, doesn't it?

>>54129837
I mean, he's kinda the only one who's truly the Child of Everblight, and not adopted like the rest of them.

>>54129788
>Trolls
They've always been pretty close dumpster fire tier.

They had a few spurts in Mk2 but they were propped up by Runes the whole time and then EE briefly before everything got nerfed by errata or changes to Steamroller

>>54129912
They temporarily had MMM as well.
And Digmies.

>>54130253
Meh? That stuff was neat but it was going against Haley2, Body and Soul, Butcher3, Lylth2, Rad Brad and so on.

>>54130270
MMM had game against Haley2

>>54130270
>Rad Brad

I'm going to miss the days when he didn't suck. He's basically the setting's Piccolo.

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>>54130744
>He's basically the setting's Piccolo
Explain this to a non-DBZfag please

>>54130513
And you auto lost to Cryx

>>54129770
Cryx was number 1 for ALL of mk2 and then they get tuned down for mk3 for a brief moment then the Cryxfags raging about how shit they are in mk3 (they weren't) and PP goes and buffs them to the top AGAIN.

I'm sick of this shit. Why do Cryx players always have to ruin this game.

>>54130767
>grumpy, isolationist personality
>not such a bad guy despite his predecessor being a jackass
>is the most mature/least retarded in his circle of colleagues
>would rather not have a circle of colleagues in the first place
>powerful, but not so powerful that he's always taking center stage

>>54129776
PP would never do that. You know why? Because a fully militarized Rhul fighting a defensive war would absolutely positively shit all over everybody else in the setting.

Can people, who say that pre-measuring didn't change anything, explain why gunlines started dominating mk3 if it's not due to pre-measuring?

>>54131626
Because infantry became more expensive (resulting in less models on the table), jacks get free focus to boost shots, tough got nerfed and people keep setting up bad tables without obstructions in the middle.

>>54131626
Because Ossyan hadn't been nerfed yet.

>>54131949
>trenchers
>wgrc
>idrians
>retribution

>>54131972
>Trenchers
Were shit at the start of Mk3.
>Would God Really Care?
Probably not.
>Idrians
A good unit in a mediocre faction. They were never a problem.
>Retribution
Gee the very faction I just named a caster from.

>>54128667
Team tournament format.

Shit factions can appear good because you're building specific lists to counter drop into green/red scenario matchups.

More than half the tournament is won and lost based on which captain does a better job of drafting matchups each round.

Skorne looks good in team tournament formats because you can get yourself those weird drops where you can stack a whole bunch of support one way and not get punished for it, because your captain does a good of dropping you into the counters he wants.

Whereas if you try to do that in 2 List Masters you just get fucked because your 2 lists can't cover jack shit.

>>54132036

Back in Mk2 Makeda3 was more or less a joke caster. But she had massive win rates at WTC and other team events, because a player would show up with a Makeda3 list sporting 6-8 shield guards and then their captain would drop them into every Cygnar player he could find and make them cry. His goal was to be dropped into Cygnar, so the Cryx player on the team didn't have to deal with it.

Team events should never be looked at seriously for any faction balance, the format allows for very weird skew lists that are either meant to win hard, or be thrown into a match they'll lose badly but it's good for the team because it's absorbing a problem opponent or list they don't want to deal with to allow other players on the team to win.

>>54123313

He's just not good enough at it to get picked over Hex1/Rasheth. There's not enough infantry lists going around that Hex2 is actually any good against. Ghost Fleet really is the only one.

>>54132069
Makeda3 had the most reliable Karn assassination of the faction in terms of delivery, and had tools that made her work pretty well.

She was also a pretty good drop into dudespam.

I think you're incredibly confused here, man. I especially don't understand why Makeda3 is bringing 6-8 shield guards, instead of someone else. Or why that was a major threat to Cygnar, because Haley2 didn't give a shit.

>>54132089
I mean, the other thing he does is make a Mammoth immune to debuffs, which is pretty huge in a lot of other matchups.

>>54131207
They aren't top. A single theme list is propping them up and Chain Attack are basically spastics who obsess over spreadsheets and tournament rankings.

>>54131626
No they for sure did. And gunlines made jack use more popular.

Good stuff overall.

>>54132194
This. Ghost Fleet is literally dead against Circle, meaning that once Ghost Fleet scares the Khador players away, Circle will swoop in and invalidate Cryx.

>>54131392
I don't see how they can keep Rhul out as a major faction if they're serious about this "one new faction every year" shit.

>>54133421
Hm, I wonder if we'll get back a free Llael...

>>54133700

Menoth is recalling their forces, Khador is having difficulties, and it's an agenda item for the new Cygnaran government (sort of, Llael Province with "...and Duke of Llael" getting added to the royal titles could happen).

>>54131626
It's a combination of things.

Power up made shooting jacks awesome, premeasure leveled the playing field for everyone and gunlines are easy to play, and Warjacks primary counter, infantry, were nowhere to be seen.

>>54131987
>Trenchers
>Were shit at the start of Mk3
>laughinghaleys.jpeg

>>54133933
>Warjacks primary counter, infantry, were nowhere to be seen.
So I didn't play much during mk2, but how are infantry supposed to counter Warjacks

>>54133421
>>54133700
Personally I'd like to see some kind of civilization from the Shattered Spine isles.

>>54133988
They're not really a counter, I think that dude means that infantry and warjacks generally have a hard time finishing each other off.

Unless they're specialized for the job - i.e. Weapon Master infantry or 'jacks with Thresher and other such abilities.

>>54133988
Lots of attacks, don't require focus, make better use of upkeeps, etc

For two editions of the game infantry were king. You wanted to take as few jacks as possible and maximize your infantry

>>54134034
I'm so fucking glad those days are over.

>>54134034
Yeah, but how are they supposed to kill jacks unless they are specifically designed to

>>54134034
That's not being a counter.

That's being a better option. Infantry still generally wasn't great at killing warjacks in most cases.

>>54134159
Weapon master infantry from mk1&2 would disagree. Hell, even basic units like Halberdiers murdered jacks with a damage buff.

There were very few if any reasons to take jacks previously. Doing so just made you're list easy prey for Cryx.

>>54134213
Can confirm. People who say otherwise are liars.

>>54134108
>how are they supposed to kill jacks unless they are specifically designed to
That's the thing, infantry in mk1/2 were so efficient that dudes who werent supposed to kill jacks could with the right caster.

On the off chance you couldn't kill the jack you just tie it up forever with so many cheap dudes that it's basically been removed from the game

>>54135484
Or cripple one.

>>54135484
So what happened?
Did Power Up end up change that much? Did infantry just get hit with the nerf bat all alround?

>>54135725
Infantry got more expensive (and individual nerfs, depending on the units) and jacks got both cheaper and you can take more due to higher allowance.

In mk2, a bunch of casters had 6-8 or so Battlegroup points, which doesn't even cover a 9 point heavy.

Now, with the averag 28 points, you usually get 2 heavies or 1 heavy and 2 lights for 0 actual points.

>>54133988
>>54134108

In a nutshell, infantry charge for free and every infantry model gets a boosted charge attack damage roll.

Most melee-oriented infantry can threaten warjacks easily, and some shooting infantry can on charges (for example, 5 Idrians, on average, kill an Ironclad chassis on the charge if its their prey target).

It's mostly a matter of charges being *very* powerful, infantry charging for free, and each model in the unit charging.

>>54135725

Jacks both got cheaper and Power Up means you can take more of them -- in Mk2, mostly you took very few jacks because they required Focus to do enough work to justify their point cost, and that Focus represented spells your caster wasn't casting (or Overboosted fields making them more vulnerable to assassination).

Now Jacks are cheaper, and do more with less caster resources expended, so they're a lot better (and more dynamic) on the tabletop.

I switched from playing almost entirely Hordes in Mk2 to almost entirely Warmachine in Mk3 because at the same time they made jacks more dynamic on the field with Power Up, they nerfed a lot of the dynamism of Hordes battlegroups by tightening Fury management and changing the way (most) animi worked. So Mk3 Warmachine looks a lot like Mk2 Hordes did -- battlegroups usually range from a third to all of your points, and while there are plenty of viable infantry builds, your battlegroup is almost always the core of your army.

>>54132421
>Good stuff overall.
>Gunlines

No anon, you're a fucking idiot. I've watched games where Sloan tabled someone while making sure they didn't lose by 5. I've watched Rockets blast people off the board.

It's utter shit.

>>54136018
Bring a gunline drop, you huge baby.

>>54136040
>Bring a gunline drop, you huge baby.

That's great for the game isn't it?

Why don't they try making scenario a little more live?

I don't think they thought through what premeasuring would do to guns. I don't think they thought much of anything through in Mk 3.

>>54133806
>Llaelese resistance is fighting Cygnar rather than Khador

That sounds pretty entertaining.

>>54136076
>That's great for the game isn't it?
Yes it is. Rather than playing your broken caster and a Cryx drop, you now have to decide what to bring lists against. Ghostfleet? Jackspam? Horses? Gunline? You can't beat everything just by counter-listing it anymore, so build two lists and learn how to play them, even if you happen to be the underdog.

>I don't think they thought through what premeasuring would do to guns.
It doesn't do anything for guns ever since a moderately sized LOS-blocking piece of terrain has to be in the center of each table via rules. Initially they thought players wouldn't build shit tables, but we apparently can't be trusted so now it's a factual handholding rule.

>>54136168
>Ghostfleet? Jackspam? Horses? Gunline?

What in the fuck are you talking about? You're saying theme lists being broke is good for the game too?

Top tip there bucko, the answer to a Gunline is usually a better gunline. Which covers a lot of other matchups, if not most.

The downside to gunlines and what ripped them from Mk 2 was that scenario was very live and you couldn't just toe to win. Now you can and what do we see?

Either casters with a time walk against gunlines or better gunlines. It's predictable, stale and fucking boring.

>>54136518
If you can find no way to possibly play a game where some shooting lists are viable, perhaps it's time for you to find a game you will enjoy playing? There's plenty of games on the market, and it's not like bitching about this one on 4chan is going to change the world to fit your desires. Some lists you'll go up against in Warmachine are gunlines, some will be dudespam, and some will be high armor, that's just the way the game is. Maybe play 8th edition or AoS if you can't find the will to deal with playing WMH.

>>54136518
Khador before themes were released:

- Winter Guard Rocketeers, Ruin, Behemoth, fill the rest with Juggernauts
- Karchev with 15 Mad Dogs

Khador after themes were released:

>Winter Guard Kommand:
Vlad Kommand: 5 Heavies and 3 Rocketeer Squads
Butcher1 Kommand; Ruin, Juggernaut and 5 Rocketeer Squads
Sorscha1 Kommand: 4 Heavies, 3 Rocketeer Squads, Snipers
Butcher 3 Kommand: 2 Kodiaks, 1 Ruin, 3 Rocketeer Squads, Snipers

>Jaws of the Wolf:
Karchev Jaws: 9 cheap Heavies
Harkevich Jaws: 8 quality Heavies
Butcher3 Jaws: Behemoth, Ruin, Rager, Kodiak, Kodiak, 2 Kayazy Eliminators and Snipers
Irusk2 Jaws: Behemoth, a marshalled Destroyer, 2 units Kayazy Assassins, 2 Kayazy Eliminators

>Legion of Steel:
Zerkova1 (fucking Zerkova1, the biggest joke caster in mk1) LoS: Colossal, 3 max units of Pikes, Greatbears
Zerkova1 LoS part 2: 2x Destroyer, 3 max Pikemen, max Uhlans

>Out of Theme:
Harkevich Anti-Meta: 3x Kodiak, 4x Marauder, 2x Bokus, Orin Midwinter, Marksman, Kell Bailloch

Sorscha's 13: Torch, Destroyer, Malakov with Behemoth, min-Winterguard Infantry with Rockets, Eiryss2, Kell Bailloch, Marksman, Winter Guard Field Gun Crew, Sylys

>It's predictable, stale and fucking boring.
You mean MUH BANEZ, right?

>>54136939
>Khador before themes were released:
>- Winter Guard Rocketeers, Ruin, Behemoth, fill the rest with Juggernauts
>- Karchev with 15 Mad Dogs
>Khador after themes were released:
>>Winter Guard Kommand:
>Vlad Kommand: 5 Heavies and 3 Rocketeer Squads
>Butcher1 Kommand; Ruin, Juggernaut and 5 Rocketeer Squads
>Sorscha1 Kommand: 4 Heavies, 3 Rocketeer Squads, Snipers
>Butcher 3 Kommand: 2 Kodiaks, 1 Ruin, 3 Rocketeer Squads, Snipers

Are you trying to prove my point?

>>54136831
>If you can find no way to possibly play a game where some shooting lists are viable

That's exactly what I said wasn't it fat guy.
(No it wasn't)

And you guys should really quit trying to tell people who criticize the game to fuck off to 8th edition, Infinity, Malifaux. People already are, con attendance and tourney attendance is the lowest it's been for years at Warmahordes, WMW had the first decline (ever) last year. So keep telling people that and they will.

>>54137336
For some reason I feel like losing you won't be much of a blow to the game.

Regardless, you're not being told to fuck off because you've criticized the game. You're being told to fuck off because you've been given answers to your complaints and you're still here bitching like a little baby.

Clearly there is no satisfying you, so why are you here?

>>54137336
>People already are, con attendance and tourney attendance is the lowest it's been for years at Warmahordes, WMW had the first decline (ever) last year
I'd love to see some actual evidence for this trend besides randos complaining and anecdotes from garbage communities and their salty PGs.

>>54137549
Check the muse forums, he's right about WMW. Not sure on other cons.

>>54137515
>You're being told to fuck off because you've been given answers to your complaints and you're still here bitching like a little baby.
>Clearly there is no satisfying you, so why are you here?

No I haven't. And fuck yourself fatty, I can be here if I want :^)

>>54137304
All of these are completely different lists. Themes made 3 sections of Khador playable, rather than only one.

How much of a faggot are you?

>>54137604
You have to be at least 18 to post on this site.

>>54137594
I believe it, new editions of the game usually see players leave and new players come in and new players aren't going to immediately rush out to WMW. From what I've seen the communities that actually try to attract new players are holding strong and the ones where the PGs quite or are just constantly complaining are shrinking.

I'm mostly curious what evidence people use or if theyre just shouting nonsense.

>>54131063
But that was pretty much always the case. You took one list against everything and one specifically designed to fight Cryx, and sometimes you were able to win with it.
And I'm talking about a good Cryx with a competitive list and a skilled Cryx player.

>>54137720
>I believe it, new editions of the game usually see players leave and new players come in

That's not been my experience. Mk 2 was a boom for us locally (and WMW blew up too) from Mk 1. The game got better though, much much better than Vlad Mk 1.

Mk 3 wasn't the same, we bled a lot of players locally and it died. Of course, Malifaux is a serious game now as is Infinity.

>>54137658
>How much of a faggot are you?

Don't be homophobic.

All of those lists are essentially the same fucking list.

>>54138042
No they are not, have you ever played this game? Each caster completely changes how the Winterguard works on the table and whether there's one more Jack, snipers over a fourth unit or even a horse wagon is a big deal.

>>54138042
>Don't be homophobic.
Have you tried posting on reddit instead?

>>54138410
>No they are not, have you ever played this game? Each caster completely changes how the Winterguard works on the table and whether there's one more Jack, snipers over a fourth unit or even a horse wagon is a big deal.

So it's not the same list because sometimes they get a different buff or Feat but regardless if they're taken in every list, the list is dynamic.

Kill yourself, you have no impartial perspective.

And homophobic is homophobic regardless of where you're at.

Get some help dude and lose some weight.

File: d5c.jpg (36KB, 625x626px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 625x626px

>>54138627
>regardless if they're taken in every list, the list is dynamic
You know, except for the lists not including winter guard, which people have been using. Pikemen took fucking 1st place under Jeff Everitt, supported by a caster people considered a joke in mk2

>"homophobic is homophobic regardless of where you're at."
>calls people out for being fat nerds

>>54132106
>Makeda3 had the most reliable Karn assassination of the faction in terms of delivery, and had tools that made her work pretty well.

Wut. You're thinking of Makeda2, not 3. Makeda3 had a shorter range, less non linear movement, no buffs, and no immunity to freestrikes.

>>54138906

People are born gay anon. It takes laziness and poor life choices to be fat.

>>54139558
>People are born gay anon
good joke, anon
good joke

>>54139678
>good joke, anon
>good joke

That's not a joke. There is strong evidence for genetic ancestry with a majority of homosexuals.

>>54139069
Less non-linear movement? Are you joking? She could surf half the army to their caster.

>>54139831
>>54139678
>>54139678
>>54139558
>>54138906
/pol/ pls go

>>54139835
If your opponent was a fucking retard and didn't place a simple safety dead zone around his caster, sure.

>>54140388
It's not like Mak2 didn't need side steps to get to their caster.