Things in a rulebook that make the game an instant drop for you

>>53651751

This is gay and you're gay. Instead of being gay, why don't you tell us what are things in a rulebook that make you instantly excited for a game?

>>53651751

Okay, I'll take the hook on the first one; the rest I don't care on.

Aren't they the most easiest dice to find, if somebody was getting into RPGs for the first time, and you just meandered into a grocery store or arts and crafts store and asked for dice?

> it's called ___ & ___
> furries at the cover

>a 20 sided die

>>53651812
Fantasy & Ferrets?

>>53651751
>3d6 is somehow bad
>non binary success is somehow bad
>generic system is somehow bad
>last one I agree with

>>53651751
We get it, you like D&D and are terrified of moving out of your comfort zone. You didn't need to make an entire thread for it.

>>53651751
>"As a rule, your setting must be inclusive to everything. Don't let a little thing like narrative integrity get in the way of your autistic friend bringing their trans-pony-kin not!Werewolf genderqueer character into your Game of Thrones setting!"
Remember when it was just the people who thought this way who got triggered?

>>53651751

>"The game only uses six-sided dice, the easiest dice to find!"

People don't typically have enough unless they raid their Yahtzee dice anyway. With the internet we can do about four clicks and have a bag of various dice on its way to our door within a day or two.

>"We use non-binary success to make those failure rolls less BORING!"

I've played a binary system and it's opposite. Here's what happens:

"I rolled a 22." "The rocks are too slippery, one by one your fingers slip from their hold and you plummet to the ground below! When your hip makes contact with the ground, you feel a sharp pain spring up your spine like you've never felt before. Take... 18 lethal damage."

"I rolled one failure, and two threat." "The rocks are too slippery! As you grasp at any nearby ledges to prevent your fall, you manage to cut your hand on one of the sharper handholds and the sudden shock of pain causes your balance to shift! You plummet to the ground below, and now you feel it will be even harder to climb back up!"

My players don't see a difference.

>"This system can be used for ANY setting! We promise!"

"This means the DM has even more work to do than usual!"

>"As a rule, your setting must be inclusive to everything. Don't let a little thing like narrative integrity get in the way of your autistic friend bringing their trans-pony-kin not!Werewolf genderqueer character into your Game of Thrones setting!"

Never seen this shit, but I have seen people legitimately try and bring in the stupidest shit they could possibly have come up with on the shitter and actually get offended when the GM says no. "What do you mean I can't play a time-traveling detective from the 1910s in your space opera?"

>>53651785
>Aren't they the most easiest dice to find
While it's technically true, with how many gameshops exist + the internet, it's not hard at all to find ANY type of dice. Hell, assuming you're not even a filthy pirate, you're likely reading the book inside of a store that will SELL you these funky dice for cheap. In fact, local bookstores in my area are now selling polyhedral dice even though they aren't game/specialty stores.

Declaring you only use d6 because the dice are easy to find is a great way to broadcast that your game is intended for people who can't even be bothered to step inside of a book store on their own and would need to scalp their yahtzee supplies to get a game going.

>>53651751

>"We use non-binary success to make those failure rolls less BORING!"

Why is this a bad thing?

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>abstract wealth

>>53652052

Yes please. Fuck granular wealth systems, they're always overcomplex and provide no benefit over a well designed abstract wealth system.

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>Fail-forward, don't let the players run into any ACTUAL hardships that might burst their safe space

>Forced roleplay mechanics

>System spends more than one paragraph making snide, backhanded remarks towards the way other RPGs do something

>Uses a word for the Referee of the game other than DM, GM, Referee, or Keeper

>>53652165

>I don't understand what fail forward means

>>53652204
>Uh oh, you rolled really poorly with this life-threatening psycho holding a knife against your throat with 2 HP left who has stated he wants nothing more than to kill you!
>. . .he instead knocks you out and locks you up! "I'll deal with you later!"
>Whoops, looks like he accidentally left the key inside the lock. What do you want to do?

I understand fail-forward perfectly fine.

>>53652276

Your example proves that you don't.

>>53652293
You're just proving his point. If you could give a good example you would have instead of just going "no, you're wrong!"

>>53652406

Failing forward relies on the idea that success or failure should both drive the story forward. If failure is always a dead stop, it makes consist storytelling impossible, although there are also cases when nothing else makes sense, such as the stupid example he used earlier.

Without the extra bullshit that makes nothing but a lethal ending appropriate, though, it is a vaguely accurate example of failing forward. Being captured rather than killed after losing a fight.

The big stupid though is that failing forward is all about creating extra challenges and complications. It's not like fake QTE's in games, where the same thing happens either way, but that a sub-optimal outcome should still lead somewhere, to keep the game flowing and events moving, but that it should be more difficult, less ideal or otherwise a greater problem.

An example from a game I ran had the PC's chasing someone they needed to get information from. They got unlucky and failed the chase, instead ending up lost in a bad area of the city and being ambushed by thieves. It was a hard fight that got more than a few of the PC's injured and cost them some resources to survive, but from the surviving enemies they got a clue about where they could find the person they'd been chasing.

A failure is still a failure, and they suffered for it, but it doesn't put a roadblock in the way of progress.

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>what do you mean my demon cannot be a saint!
>there is no redemption system at all?

>>53651957
It was never only those people

>>53652406
As I understand it...

It is a Chase Scene, you fail whatever you're using to catch the villain. Instead of just "Haha the Batmobile lost its wheel and the Joker got away" it is "During the chase Batman managed to grab the Joker's coat and it ripped, but it spilled the contents of his pocket which included a vital clue that Batman can use to find the Joker later."

Now the PC (Batman) has a chance to move the story forward, but still failed in his objective (Catching the Joker).

>>53652406

Zweihander uses fail-forward skill checks when the players are not actually in any danger, but the characters have reason to think they are.

For example when sneaking toward a bandit camp, the GM knows there are no patrols in the area, but the players don't. If the characters fail a fail-forward sneak check and snap a twig, it doesn't actually alert anyone, but the fear that it might stresses the characters out - and accumulated stress is really bad in that game.

>>53651896
>GURPSfag detected

It's okay, I like GURPS too.

>>53652530
>>53652570
Ok, that makes a little more sense. But at a certain point you just have to have a dead stop failure. Otherwise you rapidly get to the point where you're defying coincidence just to keep the players from losing, and nothing they really do matters.

Also, I prefer to put in redundancies, so if they do manage to completely fuck up one avenue, they have two or three others to pursue. E.g., if they fail to catch the enemy, they have to find another source of that information, or follow up on a different lead entirely. But individual trails can still completely dead end if they fail.

>>53652639

Yeah, dead stop failures do exist, but the point is to make them the exception rather than the rule. Those pivotal moments when it's victory or death matter all the more if they're scarce.

>>53652204
>I don't understand what fail forward means

I do. It's a meme created by Koebel and LaTorra when they ripped off Dungeon World and pretended they knew shit about narrative gaming. For fuck's sake, these faggots wrote an entire blog post about how a boring dragon can be made really scary if the DM describes it well and puts in his own fiat bullshit. Seriously. They spent about 1000 words explaining the obvious.

>>53652530
The problem with Fail-forward philosophy is that there is never a clear example of when failing forward should stop. The example I used was cartoonish, sure, but it the point was made that using fail-forward and adhering to it will cause a break in the narrative and relieve tension in the story. It makes the players think "I don't have to worry about failure, because I will accomplish my goals regardless."

A more realistic example is if the players get caught on all sides by a pack of powerful, hungry animals and proceed to lose the fight spectacularly. There is no logical way that these animals can give up killing the players and eating them, so this would result in failure. But fail-forward philosophy being applied cheapens the situation in an unsatisfying way.

>Oh, the animals just leave now. They're done with you
or even worse, deus ex machina.
>Oh look! Someone more powerful than you was in the area and scared them off!

>"B-b-b-but failure means they could lose something important to them"
All that does is encourages players to make characters with no emotional connection to anyone to counter a DM making cheap drama.

Also the concept you seem to be talking about there is "breadcrumbs" which is used in adventure.mystery games, not actual fail-forward philosophy.

>>53652661

The fundamental flaw is that you assume you always have to apply it. It's a useful principle, but if there's no basis for it then of course you don't apply it. If there are people who argue you should, then they're fucking stupid.

>>53652661
I mean, in a proper game, your characters would have to fuck up spectacularly to get into that kind of situation.

>>53651751
Reissues that update everything for the modern era and current political climate.

>>53652661

>All that does is encourages players to make characters with no emotional connection to anyone to counter a DM making cheap drama.

Get better players. Struggling through adversity and dealing with that kind of thing can create some of the most fun moments of roleplaying, and I say that as someone who has experienced it from both sides of the screen.

>>53652087
>no benefit

In what possible way is actually controlling what you buy and knowing how much you have instead of an absurd immersion ruining abstraction bad?

Abstract wealth is pointless in anything other than a game like Rogue Trader where the player is throwing around planetary levels of wealth.

>>53652649
This, to continue my Batman example...

The Dead Stop Failure would be climactic battle on the Joker's Zeppelin filled with his Patented Laughing Gas. If Batman fails to defeat the Joker, the Joker will spread his poison over the city and countless lives will be lost. How much of an advantage the Joker has in the battle will depend on how often Batman had to fail forward. If the Batman bumbles through he'll only see the Zeppelin as it launches and has no time to prepare, putting him at a severe disadvantage. If Batman aces things, he's got the Batwing and missiles the balloon before it leaves the dock and confronts the Joker in its burning wreckage with little danger to the innocent citizens of Gotham City. But in both cases he still must face personal peril in bringing in the Clown Prince of Crime.

If anything having some Fail-Forwards ups the stakes and makes the climax all the more exciting.

>>53652802

Abstract wealth can give you the exact same amount of control and understanding of your buying power, if not more so, without having to deal with granular bookkeeping bullshit. Granular wealth is a mechanic that should die forever.

>>53652087
Abstractions are supposed to make things simpler. Concrete wealth only requires kindergarten-level math and is totally intuitive. Abstract wealth always requires looking up a bunch of tables and always has issues where buying and selling things in different orders can leave you with different amounts of money at the end.

>>53652835

Sounds like you've just been using some shitty abstract wealth systems.

>>53651751
>d20
>classes
>spells per day
>levels
>HP per level
>x% chance for your firearm to explode and hurt you lulz
>abstract HP
>alignments
>critical anything
>anal circumference charts
>armor class
>weapon damage as die type
>genders not having a mechanical impact
>high/heroic fantasy
>"hard" science fantasy
>effect does X to Y unless Y is being held/worn by someone.

>>53652661
I think that the mistake you're making is that there's no risk of player death in "fail forward" game philosophy, when all it means in effect is that the game doesn't come to a stop until someone passes a skill check.

The traditional example of failing forward is a thief trying to unlock a door in a dungeon. All "failing forward" means is that instead of a failed check meaning the game stops until someone else finds a way to open the door, the process of opening the door alerts nearby threats that attack the group. That's far from a "safe space" bubble, as you characterize it: the most common way to "fail forward" is to fail forward directly into a threat.

>>53652850

>genders not having a mechanical impact

You had me up until then. Good effort.

>>53651751
My favorite system is Runequest actually. Really the thing that this system has done is spoiled me on having hit locations.

I hate that most RPG's you're just a bag of hitpoints. In Runequest you get arms damaged and can't use weapons or get limbs/heads chopped off.

>>53652822
Yes, but it makes rewards/roleplaying kind of bullshit.

"The Governor offers you a rich reward for your resources. It's a +2 bonus to your next wealth roll."
"Which means what exactly?"

It's counter-intuitive and breaks immersion. I've never seen a system that does it well. I'm not saying it can't be done well, but I've never seen it done.

>>53652850
>genders not having a mechanical impact
Sneaky, almost got me

>>53651896

Came here to say this.

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>>53651751
>three stupid and wrong opinions, plus one that never actually happened and you just made up

Wew lad.

>>53651751

>"rules light system"
>uses like 6 kinds of proprietary dice where most of them are for very similar things

>>53651751
You're not very bright.

>>53652661
Yeah, I mean, there's no clear example because they usually figure you'll know when it's time to stop by yourself.
That's the thing with rules, you know, most don't state exceptions outright, it's up to the people to understand when the benefits from breaking them or drawbacks from following them outweigh the opposite.

>>53652894

Fair, that kind of mechanic can be easy to fuck up and do badly. Still, with your example they could just provide some solid descriptions of various levels of wealth and what the bonuses could represent, to ensure it was easy to understand.

The immersion thing is a bit weird to me, but peoples immersion seems very variable. I'm never bothered by having to deal with game mechanics, but suddenly having to start beancounting to account for my travel rations and arrows is the absolute worst thing if I'm trying to get into the fantasy of a big damn hero.

>>53652881
>>53652895
Thread hijack lol.

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>>53652685
>The fundamental flaw is that you assume you always have to apply it
My main complaint was someone presenting it as a hard-coded rule in their rules to begin with.

>>53652690
Is this not normal?

>>53652713
>Get better players.
If I could do that, do you think I would even come here?

>>53652858
>that there's no risk of player death in "fail forward" game philosophy
That's what fail-forward philosophy is, isn't it? Instead of them failing and losing their character, the story should continue and the failure should be anything other than death. I have seen games encourage this part of the philosophy, and I have even seen other games that outright remove death as a mechanic to propagate this, let alone the systems and blogs that encourage this philosophy who berate "Killer DMs" for harming their precious players.

>All "failing forward" means is that instead of a failed check meaning the game stops until someone else finds a way to open the door
I also have a problem with this as well. This IS the traditional go to example of fail-forward, but ultimately it's heavily flawed. If there's no penalty, then there should be no roll and the thief should unlock the door automatically if it's within their skill reach.

>the most common way to "fail forward" is to fail forward directly into a threat.
And then when you fail that threat, the philosophy encourages you to make the fall into another threat, and another threat, but never ACTUALLY follow through with it.

>>53652987
kill yourself porkeye

>>53651992
5e, at least I think it's 5e, has a line in it akin to "characters can be whatever [out of place sexual persuasion/expression] you want and everyone has to deal with it". That's not what it said at all, but the line had this weird double meaning that you can do what you want with your group which doesn't need to be fucking stated, while also implying that there will be no repercussions and that conventional mores even apply in a fantasy setting. The line was out of place, pandering, and a little insensitive on top of being fucking ignorant.

>>53652968
>beancounting to account for my travel rations and arrows

The GM I've played the most with eschewed this completely, and adjusted the amount of gold the party got down by the appropriate amount. Worked out fine for the games we were playing, but there are some kinds (hardcore dungeon crawls, explorationg games) where you might want to do said beancounting or come up with another reasonable mechanic to enforce the sense of limited resources.

>>53651751
The type of dice used doesn't matter. The only exception is if the game uses dice specifically designed for it, because that's just pants-on-head retarded.
Non-binary successes are a safeguard against shit GMs/players more than anything, to enforce some variety in results other than "you do it" and "you fuck up forever".
Nothing wrong with universal systems either, really - although the rules for those tend to either be dull as shit or obnoxiously complex.
As for inclusiveness, pandering exists everywhere. I'm sure the developers realize that if people want to player their special snowflakes and the group is partial to it, they'll do it in literally anything, from D&D to Shadowrun, and they don't need to be told it's possible. But they want the bennies from appealing to a certain audience, which is currently more widespread than the sort of audience that hates it.

>>53652938
>Trusting people to know when to break the rules reliably and safely
Do you even belong here?

>>53652987

Your main problem seems to be with extremists and idiots, not with the principle itself.

Failing forward is a tool that can be useful for keeping the flow of the game going. It's not something to use without thought or to always apply it no matter what.

I run narrative focused games where PC death is very rare, but I never say it's impossible. Even if I avoid it most of the time and focus on alternate consequences, there's always the chance a time will come when nothing else makes sense or is more appropriate to happen, and I'm lucky enough to have players who'll often agree with me and accept it, even enjoy playing out a heroic sacrifice or a tragic death.

>>53652052
Every system I design has abstract wealth, fight me. Anything you do in the game should serve the narrative, which can include resource management, but granular money management is inane and boring.

>>53653019

I suppose I should be specific. This is my key problem with granular wealth systems. When I might have tens or hundreds of thousands but there's still all kinds of little, pointless things that cost a couple of coppers and managing it is just aggravating and pointless.

>>53652661
>The problem with Fail-forward philosophy is that there is never a clear example of when failing forward should stop. The example I used was cartoonish, sure, but it the point was made that using fail-forward and adhering to it will cause a break in the narrative and relieve tension in the story. It makes the players think "I don't have to worry about failure, because I will accomplish my goals regardless."
THAT'S NOT HOW FAILING FORWARD WORKS.

FAILING FORWARD JUST MEANS THE ACTION CONTINUES RATHER THAN STOPPING

DEATH IS STILL ON THE CARDS AS THE END TO THE ADVENTURE

FAIL FORWARD JUST MEANS IF YOU ROLL THE DICE, SOMETHING HAPPENS IF YOU FAIL

An example:

You're hanging by your fingertips by the cliff edge. What do you do
>uhh call for help - rolling for, I don't know, luck.
Hmm, bad roll. Your calling gets a giant spider crawling towards you. It's going to bite your fingers.
>shit shit shit I stab it with my knife. Roll.. aw, shit, another low roll
The spider dodges back, and bites your other hand. You start falling. Any last actions?
>I try to grab something as I fall, a cliffside edge, roots, anything!
Sorry, dice really want you dead. You fail to grab something, and you die splattered at the bottom of the cavern.


See, at NO POINT did rolling keep the situation the same. Calling didn't get no-one coming over, trying to stab the spider but failing didn't mean the guy's still hanging on the ledge, failing to grab something didn't mean the guy's still falling.

SOMETHING HAPPENS EACH TIME, INSTEAD OF NOTHING WHEN YOU ROLL THE DICE.

THAT IS ALL IT MEANS SERIOUSLY

>>53652968
>>I'm never bothered by having to deal with game mechanics, but suddenly having to start beancounting to account for my travel rations and arrows is the absolute worst thing if I'm trying to get into the fantasy of a big damn hero.

Mechanically that's true, I've rarely seen that in practice.

Minor costs such as arrows, stays at inns, rations, etc. are generally hand-waved and ignored in all but the most hardcore of campaigns. It's just assumed you refill when you get back to town and the costs ignored. Money is used for important items (weapons, important consumables like potions, armor, luxuries, bribes, transportation, etc).

I've had players micromanage those things in a few campaigns but that was because the focus was survival and it was actually hard to find those things.

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>>53653080
Actually you're wrong

>>53651771
>Good Editing
>Clear divisions of Fluff and Crunch sections

Why do you suck so bad at this, Shadowrun. I just want some magical cyberpunk.

>>53653049
>Your main problem seems to be with extremists and idiots, not with the principle itself.
My main problem is actually with games that present it as a hard-coded rule, meaning that the system is designed to force you to take this route and engenders this type of playstyle in an extremist manner. Which is what the thread is about.

I also have problems with any philosophy that tries to put a padded glove on a game, which is ALREADY a safe space for a player to encounter various failures and learn from them. I have no qualms about not making every failure punishable by death, but rather I use it as the situation calls for it.

>I run narrative focused games where PC death is very rare, but I never say it's impossible.
Yes, and I bet you're the type of DM who says "I don't kill PCs unless they do something REALLY stupid", right? Sorry, as a player, I hate that type of nonsense. But you do you.

>>53653080
You're so hilariously wrong it's not even worth responding to.

>>53653113

Eurgh. I wish more books did it. One of my favourite games, Legends of the Wulin, is a posterchild for the opposite, and it's a crying fucking shame. A great game crippled by awful editing and layout.

>>53653101
I've provided a concrete example of how failing forwards doesn't mean characters can't die. How about YOU show ME how failing forwards means characters are fucking invincible always succeeding in their goals?

>>53653121

Can you name a game which has it as a hardcoded rule? Because I've never heard of them.

>You're so hilariously wrong it's not even worth responding to.

No, I'm pretty sure what he's talking about is the common definition of 'failing forward'. What you're talking about is something weird and extreme and dumb.

I like d6 only games because they're the dice most commonly sold in bigass bricks.

>>53653138
How about you stop having a tism spasm and maybe human beings will actually want to talk to you.

>>53653121

>Yes, and I bet you're the type of DM who says "I don't kill PCs unless they do something REALLY stupid", right? Sorry, as a player, I hate that type of nonsense. But you do you.

...No? But I already clarified this in the post you replied to, so I'm not sure why you said this. Did you just not read the rest of the paragraph?

>>53653148
It gets me irrational when people think dungeon world isn't an excuse to murder player characters for fucking up bad. Instead of failing meaning the players get to try again, failure now means you got more problems, and those problems build until usually two or three characters are dead and the others can barely recover let alone carry on.

>>53652987
It's not about being entitled to PC survival. It's about the fact that the entire story grinding to a halt because the characters failed to spot a secret door is deeply unsatisfying and requires patchwork solution. If, like you, the GM has backup solutions and the players know they exist, there's no problem. The rule exists to prevent bad story construction resulting in a 'welp you lose because you rolled bad'.
Some people misunderstand it to mean nobody dies ever. Sure, it COULD lead to that if someone was fucking stupid - but as designed, its most extreme variety is only delaying the victory or death to suitably dramatic moment, like facing a proper villain rather than a random bandit group.
It's basically putting the story above the game part. Which is purely up to taste.

And there IS a penalty, on that note. Always. It's just the penalty isn't game-ending. It doesn't have to be in order to be a penalty, you know? If someone fails to open the door, they could instead do it so loudly it draws some guards, turning the whole thing into a clusterfuck. It's a penalty, it's not 'you lose, defeated by the mighty door'. See the difference?

And the last point boils down to you not understanding that rules aren't meant to be followed forever, again.

>>53653157
I read it, but it didn't really disagree with my synopsis of the type of DM you are. Death is to be avoided at all costs unless the players are specifically asking for it, am I wrong?

>>53653080
You're right, but most DMs turn failing forward into "I'm scared of the PCs dying because then they won't get to see the ending to my oh-so-original donut steel adventure" and start wanking them off.

Hell, I've been guilty of it too. But that doesn't excuse it. The main issue is failing to distinguish the "forward" meaning moving the story forward (correct) as opposed to moving the characters forward (wrong).

>>53653188
>dungeon world
Oh dear, you're retarded

>>53653188
So "failing forward" just means "shit on the player characters when they fail a basic check until they all end up dead and/or turtling because they can't do anything."

Nice meme. Thanks for reminding me why Apocalypse World mechanics should have stayed in Apocalypse World, where they actually worked. Not in fucking heroic fantasy where you start out with as many hit points as an elder dragon.

>>53652987
>I also have a problem with this as well. This IS the traditional go to example of fail-forward, but ultimately it's heavily flawed. If there's no penalty, then there should be no roll and the thief should unlock the door automatically if it's within their skill reach.

Typically, this IS supposed to be what failing forward is coupled with. The original rules for Apocalypse World, for example, stress that players do not roll if there isn't a meaningful consequence to failure. If the only narrative risk to unlocking a door is that the door takes a very long time to open, then most systems that employ a "fail forward" philosophy will also say to just let the door open.

>And then when you fail that threat, the philosophy encourages you to make the fall into another threat, and another threat, but never ACTUALLY follow through with it.
I think this is where your misunderstanding with failing forward is causing issue. The only thing that failing forward is intended to be a stopgap against is nothing happening as a result of a skill check. Nowhere has a writing on failing forward - at least as far as I am aware - suggested that the consequence of failing to safely navigate a narrow ledge isn't still falling down a pit, or that the consequence of failing a roll in combat isn't still getting stabbed, and both of these are things that are fully expected to deal the appropriate damage and potentially kill a player.

The only thing that failing forward means is that a player who fails a roll to gather information gets bad information instead of no information, or that a player who fails a roll to negotiate with NPCs is betrayed or led into a bad situation instead of stonewalled. I think it might be the "forward" that's throwing things off. It's not about providing a safety net for players, because things that are expected to kill player characters are still supposed to be able to kill them. It's just a matter of keeping things moving towards those threats faster.

>>53653193
Side note: in dungeon world, there's three types of result for a roll:

Success
Success with a price (fail forwards)
Failure (also fail forwards)

If you do well enough to succeed, good job, you're done.

If you don't get it done good enough you can switch one problem for another (run out of ammo, monsters turning up, the eye of sauron is upon you, whatever).

If you fail, something else happens but it's still moving the story forwards towards your inevitable demise.

The success with a price is where you get to choose if you want to die to get something done, as the ultimate price.

Failure is just where you may just flat out die.

>It uses a 20 sided dice for its main resolution system
>Its rules are just holdovers from the 70's kept to preserve the system's identity
>It promotes obsession over "builds" and general gamey bullshit
These three things always bugged me.

>>53653244
>shit on the player characters when they fail a basic check until they all end up dead and/or turtling because they can't do anything
You only make the players roll when they do something that matters, idiot. That's basic GMing.

It just so happens players will do a lot of stupid things that matter in keeping their dumb asses alive.

>>53653196

Yes, you're wrong.

Whenever a fight happens in my games, it will always be for a specific reason- I don't do 'random encounters'. There will be a reason why people are fighting, something to lose and something to gain. Most often, the goals of their opponents won't include the explicit death of PC's, so they won't be on the table outside of unusual circumstances. However, if things come to a head and someone is out for blood, if that PC goes down that PC is very probably dead.

It's not about players being stupid, it's about what makes sense in context.

>>53653244
I find that Apocalypse World's engine also works really well in The Sprawl, since it sticks to the harm clocks instead of DW's bloat HP and the level of character-driven grit that AW encourages also ends up being a good fit for Cyberpunk.

There's a lot that DW does wrong, and I feel the biggest issue is that AW's mechanics just aren't meant for heroic fantasy.

>>53653193
>It's about the fact that the entire story grinding to a halt because the characters failed to

>>53653254
>The only thing that failing forward is intended to be a stopgap against is nothing happening as a result of a skill check.

That's not really fail-forward philosophy though. Fail-forward means that an abject failure is turned into a chance of success or a minor setback. While your example with the door could be likened to fail-forward, in reality what you're talking about is the breadcrumbs philosophy, the idea that the adventure should always be "solvable" and not have a single point-of-failure that could prevent it from being solved, something codified with the Gumshoe system.

This is a little different because it's mostly talking about fixing gaps in design on the DM's side rather than fixing problems with the skill system on the Players side, which is more or less what Fail-forward philosophy attempts to address. Which is the second problem I've always had with the door example. The problem with the door example isn't that the players choked on a single point and now the adventure sucks, it's the fact that the DM designed the adventure in such a way that the adventure failed due to bad rolls.

Something closer to the fail-forward philosophy would be the example Dungeon World gives in their handbook of the thief sneaking through the mansion (at least I think it was DW), where they failed, then alerted the guard, but the guard wasn't FULLY alert yet, as opposed to the thief failing and alerting the household entirely.

>>53651751
Two of these points can be applied to GURPS and GURPS is fucking great. Especially because it uses 3d6 and not a single funky die.

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>>53653334
Then I misjudged you completely. Carry on.

>>53651751
I'm in a game that uses 1d6 as the only fucking dice, execute me please.

>>53653657
simpled6 isn't bad brah

>>53653196
Often times failing your goal, surviving and having to move on with the repercussions can be far more cutting than getting a blank slate free of your past fuckups.

>>53653877

This is what super lethal GMs miss out on. They're not being harsh, they're always giving players an easy out.

>>53653877

Those are, in fact, the campaigns that stick with you much longer. Not just losing but FAILING, and having to see the consequences thereof, really eats at players.

>>53654013
>>53654048

Actually, as a player, I tend to hate this. It feels more like I got by on luck and because of a passive DM rather than my own skill, and even when I die I feel like I learn something from my character's death and improve.

But I play OSR, so what do I know?

>>53654198
OSR failure can be more than a party wipe. Sometimes you have the choice to run and that can be a worse failure.

>>53652858
Normally I just have multiple routes, with the locked door either being the safest or most direct way.

different approaches and all that

>>53653019
>>53653088
Saying 'this sort of rule system works well if you ignore this part of it' isn't really a stellar defense. I mean yeah most groups will ignore the minor costs you're right, but those rules are still there, I'd rather just play the system that doesn't have those in the first place.

>>53654288
Running away isn't failure in OSR, though. It's a means of survival. The only real failure in OSR is retirement or death.

>>53652881
>>53652895
It's a matter of group preference. My groups enjoys gender having both a narrative and mechanical impact. We feel that it gives your choice of character gender a greater meaning than just "lul penis/tits."

It does help that we don't use humans as a playable race. It deters people from sperging out about feminists/misogyny and such.

The only complaint I've gotten is that I didn't give a transgender character the full mechanical benefits of both sexes.

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>>53655574
>The only complaint I've gotten is that I didn't give a transgender character the full mechanical benefits of both sexes.

I sincerely hope this was only a moment of idiocy on your player's part, because even objectively that doesn't make any fucking sense.

>>53651812
Snouts & Slaves

>>53653018
The line was in the section about character sex, right above the section about character weight.

It says:

>You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture’s expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface.

>You don’t need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon’s image. You could also play a female character w ho presents herself as a man, a man w ho feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character’s sexual orientation is for you to decide.

If that triggers you then you have lead an extremely sheltered life. Fantasy, literature, and actual history is full of examples of people who defy gender norms or even blur the lines. Loki & Odin, Eowyn, Vivec, Joan of Arc, Mulan.

>>53651751
Printer errors.

>>53655749
>History is FULL of examples!
>Mentions the 10 or so edge cases out of the entire thousands of years of human history
>Hundreds of thousands of examples of regular gender norms

>If that triggers you then you have lead an extremely sheltered life.
Yyyyyeah, we're the sheltered people...

>>53655749

It astonishes me how bent out of shape some people get over something that seems like common sense.

>>53655749
>Cross-dressing is in the same category as believing you are trapped in the wrong body.
wew lad

>>53655837

Your ignorance is showing

>>53655885
Do tell.

>>53652087
>economics is hard, just gibsmedat

>>53651785
>if somebody was getting into RPGs for the first time
This is true.

However, I'm *not* running an RPG for the first time, and even before I started playing I had no trouble grasping the concept of dies other than d6, and getting the dies are basic fucking prep-work for trying something new.

If you're a total scrub, trying out your first RPG, that's fine, and it's even fine if it does use d6, but there are dedicated starter-RPGs. But I'm not, so I'd drop that shit right without a second thought.

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>>53655837
You want more examples? How about a few from Dark Souls?

Gwyndolin, Ciaran, Pinwheel, Lucatiel, Nashandra

>>53651992
>Never seen this shit
It's way too fucking common, especially in more modern RPG:s. Part of the issue here is that since that is in some RPG:s, it's used as an excuse to play exactly the kind of bullshit you pointed out that retards do, and when they actually get offended, part of the whole thing becomes that the book basically tells the GM to accept this shit, so when he doesn't, it goes beyond offended, you're basically breaking RAW by saying no.

It's fucking cancer.

>>53656077
Not mythology or history, and were creations of a modern society which fetishizes these edge cases.

Well, either way, that was your one shot to prove you weren't stupid or bait. I won't be giving you (you)s anymore.

>>53655749
Holy shit that's some obnoxious shit right there. That's maximum overcringe.

>>53655837
>a game that is about being SUPER SPECIAL people
>but you aren't allowed to not be CIS

D&D isn't your safe space, snowflake

>>53652846
>Sounds like you've just been using some shitty abstract wealth systems.

I've never seen an abstract wealth system in an RPG that wasn't shitty, thought.

>>53655749
>Loki & Odin
Get your SJW bullshit out of my cultural heritage, you plebian whore. Also, kill yourself.

>>53656077
Now name the ones that don't defy the norms

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>>53656077
Here's a few more from mythology:

Hermaphroditus (Greek)
Agdistis (Greek)
Phanes (Greek)
Hapi (Egyptian)
Ardhanarishvara (Indian)
Lan Caihe (Chinese)
Ymir (Norse)
Ometeotl (Aztec)
Ahsonnutli (Navaho)

>>53656260

It's 'sjw bullshit' to accurately state that there is plenty of mythological and cultural precedent for characters who don't adhere to the gender binary and cultural norms relating to it?

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>>53651751
While it's not an instant drop a lot of systems with certain spells being tied to morality bug me. I don't mind if good and evil get different but in say Pathfinder (Yeah I know) there is a really good spell called Infernal Healing were you smear devil blood on to a wounded creature to give them temporary regeneration. But using this spell is considered an Evil act, but using shit like burning hands, acid splash, or what is effectively an arcane roofie is fine for fucks sake YOUR BURNING PEOPLE WITH FANTASY NAPALM AND MINDRAPING THEM. But binding an Imp as your librarian or having a zombie butler are crimes against all that is good in the world.

>>53656260
From Lokasenna, Odin and Loki take turns goading each other:

>ODIN: If I have allowed, as allow I should not, Faint-hearted fighters to win, You lived under the earth for eight winters, And bore babies there, Were milked like a milch-cow And played a woman's part.

>LOKI: Charms on Samsey, they say you worked, Wicked spells like a witch, Flew about in the form of a wizard And played a woman's part.

>>53656313
Considering it's a demonstrably false statement? Yes, actually.

>>53656403

...But it isn't? They've given you a large number of clear examples.

That there aren't more of them isn't a refutation, because at no point has it been argued they're not a minority, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist as options within fantasy games if people are interested in exploring that kind of storytelling.

>>53656403
But it's not. Odin and Loki were both known for taking a woman's form on the regular.

>>53656403
So did loki not go and turn into a QT mare to seduce some guy's horse to help win a bet?

>>53655837
Native american two-spirits,
Thai Kathoey,
Albanian "sworn virgins"
The Zapoteca "Muxe"
Maori Akava'ine
Oman has the Khanith.

>>53656452
>a large number
You say large, but I entirely disagree. You're talking about a handful of people at best vs. a cornucopia of entire cultures that exist on strictly defined gender norms. You must first prove that the small list you have made is "large" to begin with.

>>53656454
And? Supposing you wish to make the argument that they're not existing under gender norms (which they are, by the way. They just switch which gender they are, but largely follow the norms regardless), it still doesn't change the fact that they use this as a basis of humiliation towards one another.

>>53656464
I didn't say the examples given were false, just that it's a false dichotomy to list 15 or so religious figures, a few historical ones, and then make the claim that this is a large example of gender abnormality in history and mythology.

>>53655749
>Loki
The shapeshifter that gets fucked after turning into a mare? You realize that that is actually making fun of Loki the trickster? It's quite literally a tale about Loki getting his comeuppance and being used like a woman and how he deserved it.

Had this tale been told today, SJW:s would lose their shit because of "rape culture", "transphobia" and "objectification" of women as "the other sex".

>Odin
You best be fucking joking. Odin is literally the personification of the paternal all-father, practically representing an olympian ideal of manhood as wise, strong, proud and inspiring, which is often contrasted against womanly cthonian ideals. The imperfections of Odin is representative of the nordic conception of men as imperfect beings (such as his unfortunately common status as an adulterer, a position shared with many classical paternal deities, such as Zeus).

The duality of the sexes is further reinforced by the relationship of Thor and Sif, who represent the potential ideal of mutual co-dependence in monogamy. Never is this duality broken in a positive sense, and any deviations from it is either derisive or subject of reprehension.

>Eowyn
Yeah, not really "defying gender norms" or "blur the lines" much here. The movie took a lot of liberties here, but even there, it's pretty far off, aside from "can fight".

>Vivec
You're citing the fucking Elder Scrolls?

>Mulan
At first I assumed you meant the real story, but then I realized that you're retarded and you're probably only familiar with the Disney movie, which is both sad and hilarious.

>>53655749
Yes I'm triggered. My setting has its own entirely arbitrary local customs and your weird gender bullshit would be seen as bizarre and subversive because they have their own that they fight about and kill each other over.

>>53656549

Why does it need to be larger? It's significant enough that a few examples were easy to provide, so why not include a mention of the storytelling potential it presents?

>>53656549
>And? Supposing you wish to make the argument that they're not existing under gender norms (which they are, by the way. They just switch which gender they are, but largely follow the norms regardless), it still doesn't change the fact that they use this as a basis of humiliation towards one another.

Literally nobody claimed that gender norms don't exist you fuck. Just that they didn't exist under our gender norms, and that they transgressed even their own gender norms on the regular.

Why is the /pol/io always so fucking stupid?

>>53656556
>You best be fucking joking. Odin is literally the personification of the paternal all-father, practically representing an olympian ideal of manhood as wise, strong, proud and inspiring, which is often contrasted against womanly cthonian ideals. The imperfections of Odin is representative of the nordic conception of men as imperfect beings (such as his unfortunately common status as an adulterer, a position shared with many classical paternal deities, such as Zeus).

Odin was known to practice a strictly womanly form of magic and regularly took the form of a woman, even going to bed with men in this form; a fact Loki called him out on. I know you're all hopped up on Evola, but stop being a fuck.

>>53656260
>my cultural heritage
Oh god I'm fucking dying.

>>53656313
>It's 'sjw bullshit' to accurately state that there is plenty of mythological and cultural precedent for characters who don't adhere to the gender binary and cultural norms relating to it?

No, no, not at all. But making shit up is definitely SJW bullshit.

>>53656291
You're just listing shit from Wikipedia as you find it, aren't you? Because many of those are entirely debatable. Take Hermaphroditus, for example, a symbol of the marital union of the two genders.

Or Ymir; why he's on your list makes me go all kinds of fucking what. He was always described as distinctly male. There is nothing whatsoever there that fits your deluded narrative.

And fucking Agdistis? Agdistis was considered fucking *insane* because of her androgynous state of having both sexual organs, and the gods *punished* her for it

>>53656628
>Why does it need to be larger?
To justify the inclusion of a line in a rulebook such as "Be whatever special snowflake gender you want to be regardless of history or circumstance!" as something other than political pandering. The rules should be neutral on this and it should be up to the DM to decide how he wants his society and setting to be made up. Whether he wants everyone to be a trans person, or if he wants to run a patriarchal society.

>It's significant enough that a few examples were easy to provide
They're easy to provide because they are the go-to examples. They stand out because they're the few differences in history.

>why not include a mention of the storytelling potential it presents?
Because their storytelling potential surmounts to a gimmicky punch line like a Gnome Barbarian. You get much more interesting stories out of women following gender norms while on adventure as opposed to a woman who must become a man first to prove anything.

>>53656639
>even going to bed with men in this form
Bull
Shit

>a fact Loki called him out on
No, a "fact" Loki accused him of.

So, what are we triggered about today? Is it that paragraph in the PHB that makes bigots freak out by reminding them trans folk exist?

>>53656556
Actually, here are some historical and cultural examples of nonbinary behavior throughout history and culture.

Native american two-spirits,
Thai Kathoey,
Albanian "sworn virgins"
The Zapoteca "Muxe"
Maori Akava'ine
Oman has the Khanith

They exist historically and culturally, you just haven't been looking in the right place. Most history books tend to focus on western european history. And you clearly are a big fan of the school of thought of:
"I listened to a bunch of Heavy metal albums and just think of vikings as armored murdermachines rather than the democratic, philosophical tradesmen and capable women that made up the norse people."

>>53652002
There's no good reason to use any dice other than d6s.

>>53656639
>Literally nobody claimed that gender norms don't exist you fuck. Just that they didn't exist under our gender norms
No, the original claim was there were characters who defied gender norms therefore it's okay to include special snowflake made up shit.

Also you're retarded.

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>>53652561
I like having having wholly good Angels and wholly evil Fiends because people usually like to do stuff like "Fallen Angels are a thing but Risen Fiends aren't" bullshit even though it's the same logic or "AHA the Not!Catholic Church is really corrupt/oppressive and Angels are just as Evil as the Fiends" Just because SMT can pull it off doesn't mean you can.

>>53656752
He didn't immediately challenge Loki, which was considered a tacit acceptance.

>>53656454
>But it's not. Odin and Loki were both known for taking a woman's form on the regular.
Yes, absolutely. This in no way defies gender norms or gender dichotomy. It is only ever used to reinforce it, no exception. SocJus-tards would've been driven out in practically any classical civilization, even the most degenerate ones.

>>53652802
Granular wealth is pointless in anything other than a tax simulation where the players is constantly reporting their income and deducts for travel expenses.

>>53656784
>No, the original claim was there were characters who defied gender norms therefore it's okay to include special snowflake made up shit.

What exactly is a special snowflake in your universe? Because trans people aren't made up, nor are queer folks.

>Also you're retarded.

And your a piece of shit, what's your point?

>>53656556
Historical examples of Nonbinary people in history and cultures across the world include, but are not limited to:

Native american two-spirits, Thai Kathoey, Albanian "sworn virgins", The Zapoteca "Muxe" of south america, Maori Akava'ine in the polynesian islands,Oman has the Khanith.

Do some historical research and you'll find them all over. You just have to actually look at the parts of history and culture that aren't wars, sword fighting and guys in big hats.

So here's a question for the people who are so angry-

Why is denying the possibility to people so important to you?

The GM has the final call, as always. If you don't want it in your group, you don't have to, but why does tacitly acknowledging it upset you so much? Why is something that will not affect you in any way such a big deal?

>>53656800
[citation needed]

And no, your Gender Studies textbook reinterpretation doesn't do.

>>53656811
>degenerate

Go home, /pol/io. Their norms are not our norms.

>>53656753
Yeah, basically. If a game even mentions you can play a trans character then reeeee sjws reeeee culture war reeeee political correctness gone mad reeeee.

>>53656811
Uh, hey, how about roman Bacchanalia where gender roles being reverse was the point of an entire holiday?

>>53652894
>wealth roll
Why even? It's not something that needs to be rolled for. Just use common sense. "Yeah, you can buy that but since you're poor you can only buy this many."

>>53656900

Sometimes randomisation makes sense in the context of the wealth mechanics, although there are also usually guidelines for what kind of purchases are automatic for what levels of wealth.

>>53656766
Larger grain of control on bonuses given with smaller sets of dice. Greater variety in outcome. Greater feel of variety between items or weapons. Better physical feel. Less chance of the game making the mistake of using dice pools. Larger numbers with smaller sets of dice. Ability to fine tune degrees of success more. Ability to use the same bell curves that d6 use with different sets of dice to control outcome even better than an all-d6 set.

There is literally never a reason to use an all-d6 game. The more dice variety, the better.

>>53656827
>nor are queer folks
I agree. Queers are indeed not real people.

All jokes aside, you're fucking retarded. Snowflakes are not made up, just "unique".

>>53656834
I would take your examples more seriously if I didn't feel like those examples were literally all of them. You posted that same list three times in this thread, and I was unimpressed the first time. Now I think you plundered the books and have posted ALL of them and are simply making the claim that there's many more on the belief that I won't fact check you.

>>53656925
>The more dice variety, the better
Nope.

>>53656887
Again, subject of derision and "opposite day" of the world going mad. Things like this is usually cited by marxists as being part of the "problem", but now it's a shield? Doesn't work like that, cupcake.

>>53656846
I don't even frequent /pol/. Go back to /r/politics.

>>53656978
Beeecauuuuuse...?

>>53656766
>he doesn't know about percentile dice

>>53656843
Refusal of Holmgang or outlawry after an accusation of argr was considered to be proof that the accuser was correct in making the accusation; this isn't new information, it's not my fault you don't know the basic history of the people you're championing as your "heritage."

>>53656929
But they're not unique. They follow pretty clear patterns of gender identity expression. Do you think trans people choose to join a demographic that's subject to staggering levels of physical and sexual violence for attention?

>>53656945
Nah that was actually more of a technical problem on my end. I didn't see the posts go through. And just because a thing is not common doesn't mean it didn't exist. It might have been more common in european cultures were it not for cultural enforcement of gender binary roles through the bible. "Women to be keepers of the home" "Obey your fathers and husbands" "Sheep, children, wives" Etc. The problems that existed with christian culture back then were the same problems that radical islam has now. I.E "Kill anything that doesn't fit the perview of our personal dogma." Hell, it's common NOW. And people who cite viking culture as this pillar of manly awesomeness are just as much of a problem because they just look at the swords and the berserkers without looking at the women controlling finance, the fact that odin did in fact practice "Woman's magic" (The art of Seidhr, the placement of seals and symbols to ensure effects like health, strength, safety, and the breaking of barriers just to name a few),

>>53656997
>I don't even frequent /pol/. Go back to /r/politics.
>talks like a /pol/io
>agrees with the /pol/io politics
>shitposts like a /pol/io

Yeah, sure bud.

>>53656129
A lot of PBtA books even have a space for alternative genders printed on the character sheet.

>>53656997
Not really a subject of derision, more a celebration of self-indulgence. You know, bacchus' whole deal. And Marxists also stated that owning any property was theft. Not everything Karl stated was a gold nugget of wisdom, my guy.

>>53657070
Neat.

I usually just write "Sex(gender)."

>>53651785
Adding to
>>53652002
>>53656051
If you honestly can't afford whatever dice the game is using for whatever reason, there are plenty of phone apps that allow you to roll virtual dice instead.

>>53655749
By the way, that line was inserted by an editor or writer against the wishes of the writing staff as a whole. It was completely deleted in the 2nd printing.

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>>53656833

>>53651812
>No __&___
>Duck and cover
>A setting about how long you can avoid dying from radiation sickness
Idk seems fun

>Highest success chance is 95%

>>53657115

Citation?

>>53656834
Most of the examples so far have been bullshit, though. Does it exist, in certain cultures at certain times? I don't doubt that.

But most of this is simply pulled out of some SJW:s ass and then reinterpreted to fit a demented agenda of psychological disorders as socially acceptable behaviour.

The vast majority of the examples given relate to the duality of humanity, man and woman. They don't break gender norms or even seek to do so, but reinforces them in accordance to the facts of reality as they could best interpret them at the time.

Paternal figures, motherly depictions, and deviations from this is almost entirely of the "batshit insane" or the "holy union of man and woman" variety.

I'm still wondering in what kind of fucked-up headspace Ymir fits into SocJus reinterpretations of mythology, though. Is it because he birthed both a man and a woman out of his fucking armpits? The reaching here is insane.

>>53656833
>>53657125
It's probably too late. Just report the thread for being off topic.

>>53657115
Good to know they had the sense to let players handle it themselves and not force it into places it doesn't belong, like my not!Japan setting where the options are boring pleb, a connoisseur of young me, a woman hater, and some kind of faggot.

>>53657222
>a connoisseur of young me
get your /ss/ out of here

>>53657050
I think you're piling up too much of the "blame" onto the religion, when in reality it was more likely the fact that if you didn't breed your society would die.

Also Vikings pillaged and raped, but you're making a claim that their society is not one based on manliness because their patriarchal father-figure who was 99% testosterone decided he wanted to learn women's magic? Really? That's your argument?

>>53651751

You can just say you're a shitter who hates PbtA games, anon.

>>53656260
>my cultural heritage
Oh, fuck, my sides.
Let's start calling bets, shall we? Is it an Amerifat mongrel trying to WE WUZ his way into European heritage, or Sven the New Somali desperately trying to cling to the last vestiges of his pride by posting from a phone hidden under his state-mandated burqa?

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>>53657139
What system has this? In my experience, systems that use something like this also explicitly state that you should only roll if there's a chance of failure. If the chance is higher than 95%, why would you roll?

>>53657115
That's fucking gold. So it was some SJW looking to usurp a pre-existing medium to politicize into a cultural platform. Big fucking surprise.

I hope xir was fired.

>>53657248

It's pretty clear that wasn't his argument, so all you're really showing off is your lack of reading comprehension.

>>53651751
The first three are just dumb. I'd like to know what game actually has the last one?

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>>53657238
Make me fggt.

>>53657173
These are just the recorded examples. Any possible nonbinary figures alive in, say, christian era europe would have likely been beaten to death or accused of demonic possession or witchcraft, kind of like women who wanted to know how to brew beer (Funnily enough the origin to the 'witch's brew' trope.) Also in the historical lense, victorian physicians beleived that women having a libido was considered a mental illness that needed to be treated with shit like cold baths and regular electrocutions.

>>53653193
>It's about the fact that the entire story grinding to a halt because the characters failed to spot a secret door

this is just bad dungeon design, not something that justifies fail forward.

>>53657273
WoD

>>53657335
It doesn't need justification. It's not a bad idea.

>>53657267

>>53657050
>And people who cite viking culture as this pillar of manly awesomeness are just as much of a problem because they just look at the swords and the berserkers without looking at the women controlling finance, the fact that odin did in fact practice "Woman's magic"
>And people who cite viking culture as this pillar of manly awesomeness are just as much of a problem

How was this not a core argument again?

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>>53657146
I own a copy of the different one so I can show you what changed. It looks like the "hermaphroditic" section was taken out. All of the other stuff is still there though.

>>53657335
I still think you have no idea what the fuck fail forward means. Getting the shit beat out of you and shipped off to a slave trader counts as well.

>>53657361
It's neither good nor bad.
Systems that have it aren't worse for having it, but systems that don't have it aren't worse for not having it.

It's a neutral idea.

>dragons, wizards, elves, cross-dimensional hijinx and all manner of ridiculous monsters don't bother me none

>but god help any adventurer that is already on the fringes of acceptable society not conform to normal gender standards

wat

>>53657248
No my argument is also that "Viking" is not a culture. It's a job. The culture is Norse. The norse were poets, bards, tradesmen and crafters. What's more, women controlled the property, so much so that touching women against their consent could easily earn someone "Outlaw" status depending on the nature of the contact.

>>53657376
I'm only going by the example provided by that guy.

>>53657375

Ahh, so the general substance was kept. That's good. Weird they'd single it out like that, but as long as it's present it's a good thing.

>>53657403
You should have stated that then instead of what you actually stated.

>>53657393

Because people are desperate to have media reinforce their biases and tell them they aren't just closed minded bigots. It's kinda pathetic. When a typically male oriented product like D&D starts to show an interest in appealing to a broader audience, they freak out because they're no longer special and being exclusively pandered to, so they whine and bitch about everyone else being pandered to instead.

>>53657393
Inverse SJWs. Exactly as thin-skinned, but for the exact opposite reasons.

>>53657418
Why does it need to be said at all? Chances are if you're a faggot, you're going to play with other faggots. I know I do. And if you don't, some words aren't going to fix anything.

>>53657418
Probably because Corellon is not and has never been a hermaphrodite.

I mean, he wasn't androgynous either but that's small potatoes compared to putting futas in D&D's RAW.

>>53657252
My bet is white kid who listened to too much heavy metal and got bullied by a black kid in high school one time.

>>53657458

Because there are a small number of people who will find it useful, meaningful and positive. Giving a marginal group a significant benefit at no cost to anyone else save a few lines of text seems pretty understandable in my book. Plus, it got WotC positive PR since acceptance and tolerance is the hip fashion these days, so it makes financial sense for them too.

>>53657393
Honestly? If this were maybe 8 or 9 years ago, this wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I'd have NO problems whatsoever including anyone like this, and would have even applauded lines like this for being true to life.

Problem is that there's a very clear agenda being pushed, and the fact is that people who complain about it like myself just simply don't trust the authors of the rule book. It's become a very good red flag to watch for if you want to see if a company actually cares about their product or not, much like how back 8 or 9 years ago you could signal out bad rulesets if they had a "GRRRL GAMER" paragraph written in them.

You want rulebooks to have this type of shit in again? Build up my trust first. Let me know you're not doing it to push a movement down my throat, and then I'll be more receptive to it.

>>53657465
I think you might need to re-read your 1e.

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>Thread that could have gone a decent direction
>This happens instead

>>53657487
It's a meaningless gesture, put out cash for hotlines and shelters instead. I've been burned by virtue signalling too many times.

>>53657498
>assuming anything Wizards has ever put its name onto was anything more than a cynical cash grab

haha

>>53657498
>It's only acceptable to promote things if it's not mainstream

get the fuck out of here hipster

>>53657033
> But they're not unique. They follow pretty clear patterns of gender identity expression. Do you think trans people choose to join a demographic that's subject to staggering levels of physical and sexual violence for attention?

I don't think he meant that trans are bad/want attention.
He mean (I think) that making a trans/... character is a way of making it a snowflake, just like making your character have Heterochromia (two eyes colors) / being half vampire.
He is not making judgement on trans/... he is just preventing the bullshit of snowflakes.

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>>53657498

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>>53655749

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>>53657050
>It might have been more common in european cultures were it not for cultural enforcement of gender binary roles through the bible
That's pretty laughable, considering that classical religions were extremely dichotomous in regards to gender roles.

In viking culture, women didn't "control finances"; they managed the home, and that was their domain. Viking culture was very much this pillar of manly awesomeness, but it was also the culture of strong femininity. As was practically all of the classical world.

The fact that Odin could practice "Woman's magic" doesn't really mean anything; Odin could practice all magic. To say that Odin was a god of wisdom and knowledge, the originator of magic and the one who quite literally gifted the runes/alphabet/futhark to mankind - long endowed with spiritual meaning - but would be unable to use Seidhr, would've been fucking absurd.

It was "woman's magic" because the art related to the home, the family, and belonging, it was practiced by women and it was their responsibility, but that doesn't mean that the magic couldn't possibly be used by men at all, just that it would be odd or maybe even a form of sacrilege to do so, which obviously wouldn't apply to Odin SINCE HE FUCKING INVENTED IT.

>>53657538
Boy that cover aged poorly.
Seeing as now frogs are symbols of the patriarchy

>>53657573
The witches are also called MAGAs.

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>>53657465
Now who's revising history?

>>53651751
Aside from the last thing, I am all fine with it. Second statement suggests that the system is very generic or very simple/light on the rules and the first is very simple but would explain the second. It's the moment someone tries to advertise certain social and political ideologies I am out.

>>53657599
So does that mean that futas are confirmed canon?

>>53653238
why is he retarded?

>>53657089
>Not really a subject of derision, more a celebration of self-indulgence.
It is a point of derision in that you did it because it *was* considered ridiculous and silly and degenerate. Then things returned to normal. The whole deal was to do something that was outlandish and absurdist.

It wasn't some transexual or drag-queen pride festival, or a celebration of gender dysphoria. It was a festival of self-indulgence and carnal insanity.

>>53657089
>Not everything Karl stated was a gold nugget of wisdom, my guy.
Literally nothing Karl stated was a gold nugget of wisdom.

>>53651751
3 and 4 I agree with, 1 and 2 I disagree with so long as they're not in conjunction with eachother.

>>53657537
There's literally nothing wrong with snowflakes in fantasy. Some of its most prominent figures are snowflakes.

>>53657572
Yeah which is why women managed the finances, could readily divorce their husbands and completely control the husband's property in the event of absence or death. And why female vikings were recorded in Varangian Vikings in a battle against the Bulgarians in A.D. 971. Plus saxon recordings of norwegian "shield maidens" who dressed as men, fought as men, and learned the art of combat. If you knew any viking history aside from what you get from revisionist documents and heavy metal songs, you'd know that Ragnar, one of the more famous norsemen, married a shieldmaiden named Lagertha.

>>53651751
>>"The game only uses six-sided dice, the easiest dice to find!"
>>"This system can be used for ANY setting!
My favorite system uses these.

I kind of hate non-generic systems to be honest. I don't want to have to relearn an entirely new ruleset, just because you can't separate fluff from crunch.

>>53657418
>as long as it's present it's cancer
Fixed that for you.

>>53657693
>Literally nothing Karl stated was a gold nugget of wisdom.
And yet here you are using him in an argument.

>>53657498
>agenda
>trans people are people too and don't deserve to be treated like shit

If you consider that a bad agenda to push, you're a pretty garbage human being.

>>53651751
>"We use non-binary success to make those failure rolls less BORING!"

But anon, the advantage/disadvantage system in the FFG SW RPGs is fun as shit

>>53657749
Calling me garbage is what makes me distrust you and put down your books and vote against you.

>>53653342
what are some things that DW does wrong?

>>53657782
>i think you're a meanie, so I won't think about what you have to say :(

>>53657782
I don't give a shit. You are garbage. I'm not going to go out of my way to shield your feelings because treating other people as human beings is too fucking hard for you.

>>53657811
Lemme get my lamp. Potentially human, sure, but that doesn't stop us from killing babies.

>>53657809
>>53657811
You can't try to take the moral high stance while simultaneously trying to bully me. It only makes you two hypocrites.

>>53657782
So not only are you a terrible person, you're also a thin skinned looser? Not surprising, but still disappointing.

>>53657487
>at no cost to anyone else save a few lines of text
Those lines of text could've gone towards something useful, like duplicating a stated rule in a relevant section. Even that would've been more productive.

>it makes financial sense for them too.
Pandering does not pay. The cultural marxist politicals are rarely the same people as the ones constituting your user base. This has been demonstrated time and again.

They'll cheer and cheer and cry tears of joy on their private Instagram account, but they won't actually buy the products. They'll watch The Big Bang Theory and laugh about how nerdy they totally are, all the while laughing about actual people that are actually sitting in their mom's basement actually playing games.

>>53653125
4e DnD had fucking fantastic layouts and editing.
I'm enraged that its so hard to find something of equivalent standards.

>>53657849
>Consider the feelings of these people!
>You're not? Then you're fucking garbage.
>What? You want me to consider YOUR feelings? You're a thin-skinned pussy faggot. Feelings are for the gays.

>>53657865
>Those lines of text could've gone towards something useful, like duplicating a stated rule in a relevant section. Even that would've been more productive.

Rulebooks aren't a zero sum game, dipshit. They don't have a hard limit on how many words they are allowed to print.

>>53657332
>cold baths and regular electrocutions
That's not how you spell "doctor-assisted masturbation".

>>53657872

Because for some reason D&D's audience fetishize obfuscation. Like the rules being hard to understand somehow assists in their 'immersion'.

>>53657662
if you want to run that sort of campaign, why the fuck not?

>>53657885

The only thing that cannot be tolerated is intolerance.

>>53657885
Reading into things a bit, aren't we?

>>53657840
>babies

Oh, so you think non-sapient clumps of cells qualify for personhood or as beings?

>ohnoit'sretarded.jpg

>>53657845
>bully me

Haha. You thin-skinned wiener.

>>53657894
That's not how you spell hand-cranked copper dildo.

>>53657885
>sugarcoating things for liberal nancies is bad and wrong
>now please sugarcoat all your statements towards me because my feefees are important

>>53657885
Yeah, surely the KKK would have listened if their opponents were just a bit nicer.

>>53656077
Pinwheel hardly counts since it was an undead abomination made from a whole family. Similarly Nashandra is a fragment of manus of the abyss so its gender is superfluous.

Also what did Ciaran do that defied gender norms? Female assassins are old enough to be in the bible, and nobody in world finds her odd that I recall. Lucatiel became some form of knightess so it didn't seem like she was defying the norms where she was: even with the mask you could hardly say she was hiding her gender in that outfit. Not every culture is one where fighting roles are always viewed as being wholly separate from women. Shield maidens and samurai wives come to mind.

Gwyn is a good example as he's a male who was raised as a girl, and though he uses male pronouns, is definitely feminine. He's not identifying himself a certain way, just filling a role.

It's quite interesting to me but for most of history that kind of thing (actually taking the role of the other) is reserved for gods in myths, who often are supernatural entities that are clearly above the norms, or those filling the role of them (queens usually). At least the dwarf thing could be plucked straight from Tolkien.

Just don't let in weird tumblr shit if it's not what you want: you sometimes just have to throw pieces out and that bit ended up removed anyways.

>>53657926
No, actual babies. Every year hundreds are killed for being witches.

>>53657749
>seriously thinks it's just about thinking that "trans people are people too!"

This. This is why we hate you. This is everything that is wrong with social justice warriors. The complete lack of understanding, and a complete lack of a willingness to understand, and a preference towards simply calling others "evil" (or variations thereof, whether they understand the term or not, such as "bigot", "racist", "fascist" or, in this case, "garbage human being").

You're a garbage human being, and I sincerely hope your dysphoria or related mental health issues makes you kill yourself, because we've had more than enough of this holier-than-thou bullshit throughout human history. You're little better than the Westboro Baptist Church and Bible-thumpers bitching about Satan's Butthole.

>>53657962
In the developed world, we don't do that.

>>53657966
Then enlighten us, what is it actually about? Because the gist of that line that has you morons triggered is "trans people exist, and it's OK to be one, even in a game."

>>53657966

But that really is all it's about, fundamentally. Some extremist idiots might go further, but they're a vocal minority who are generally better off ignored and have no real influence in the grand scheme of things. Using them as justification for being an asshole just feeds a cycle of extremism which isn't good for anybody.

>>53657977
>moral relativist tries to claim cultural superiority
zozzle

>>53657966
>The complete lack of understanding, and a complete lack of a willingness to understand, and a preference towards simply calling others "evil"

You are literally upset with them because they're using the same strategies that have visibly worked for the other side.

>>53651992
In Fantasy Flight Star Wars and games like it, you most often either get success with threat or failure with advantage, because the good dice tend to give you success or advantage but usually not both. Same with failure and threat. If you fail a roll, it's probably because the good dice only gave you advantage but not success. So the GM often has to awkwardly come up with a way for you to fail in a good way or succeed in a bad one.

>>53657966
>"You SJWs just presume we're all evil assholes!" God I hope that your decades of mental struggle end in you killing yourself!

>>53657893
Not him but at the end of the day people get paid to write rulebooks and I'd be pretty salty too if my money went towards someone who puts in useless pandering nonsense like "you're allowed to play as a transdwarf" or "there are only two genders" or " 'clip' and 'magazine' are interchangeable terms".

>>53658022
>moral relativist

Haha, no.

>>53657966
All those meanies better kill themselves! I'll call my dad if you don't stop calling me a faggot for being a faggot!

>>53658060
I don't like the "what is roleplaying?" section at the front of damn near every RPG, but I don't sperg out about them.

>>53657913
>>53657916
>>53657926
>>53657938
>>53657943

I'm mostly just posting to get you to out your hypocrisy to show to everyone here. If you want us to consider your feelings on the subject, you first have to be willing to reciprocate ours, and since you won't, I'll continue to distrust you, even after your ship starts sinking when businesses realize that catering towards your kind isn't actually sustainable.

Well, they already realize this. They're mostly just paying lip service to your talking points.

>>53657893
>They don't have a hard limit on how many words they are allowed to print.
Yes, yes, usually they do, in fact. Seriously, what the fuck, you thought page counts were just arbitrarily decided by the writers? Most books are written as projects, and the exact page count, as well as how many pages will be dedicated to certain things such as cover and such-and-such, are decided often long before editing starts. Sometimes even before writing.

If I could have endlessly big books, I'd reprint so much pertinent information in relevant sections. It still pisses me off that they don't take advantage of digital formats to actually do this. But even in a digital format I'd consider this line completely superfluous and actually detracting from the rulebook by virtue of it's meaninglessness.

>>53658024
Isn't your side supposed to be "above" using such strategies?

>>53658088
You're a fucking idiot. It isn't about getting you to consider feelings with nice words. It's about ruthlessly shaming people like you until you either change or hide in the holes you came from, because you are garbage and until you change you will continue to be.

>>53658088
>If you want us to consider your feelings on the subject, you first have to be willing to reciprocate ours
Your feelings on the subject are literally 'fuck off and die you degenerates', that isn't exactly deserving of consideration.

>>53658060
> "clip' and 'magazine' are interchangeable terms".

I too hate when games lie.

>>53658088
Bro.

You've been posting for about five or six posts now about how reading a a paragraph in a book makes you feel attacked and distrustful, and how upset you are about online bullies. I think it might be time to look in the mirror.

>>53658116
Oh it's a sex thing, I get it now. You really are fucking degenerate.

>>53656260
>that one time Loki turned into a mare to distract the horse building Asgard, had sex with it, then later gave birth to Sleipnir
>that one time Thor and Loki crossdressed to disguise themselves as Freya and her handmaid to fool a giant
Granted the second time is just crossdressing for a plan but I always think it's funny.

>>53658186

And why is other people being 'degenerates' at all relevant to you?

>>53658078
I think the heart of the issue, at least I know it's the case for me, isn't the substance of the text itself, but the connotations around it and the motivations behind its inclusion. "What is roleplaying" is fine because the intent is to help out new players (though doubtless there are grognards who'd be salty at that too) but here it's a case of someone not being able to keep their political ideas out of the game, and I dislike that kind of person just as much whether they're a developer or a player.

>>53658092
For a more intricate look at the nuances of publishing, people should consider that printers print books using leaves of a certain standardized size. The maximum size of a book is thus decided by the type and size of leaf used to print the book and the feasibility of mass-production using that size.

For an example, a book with 300 pages might choose to use a set of 5 64-page prints leaving 20 extra pages for copyright or left blank. Since books have to use standardized leaves, adding more pages to this particular book would require adding them in 64-page increments.

>>53658207

Why is it necessarily political?

Yeah, yeah, I know, culture war bullshit and everything, but is it really hard to believe that someone might include that entirely sincerely, because they thought that someone might benefit from its inclusion?

>>53658088
If you're upset by "trans people are people too and don't deserve to be treated like shit," then either you don't think trans people are people, or think they deserve to be treated like shit.

So why should we consider either of those things? There's no middle ground here. Either trans people are people or they're not - we tried the 3/5 thing, it didn't work. And either they deserve to be treated like shit or they don't, because treating someone like shit every other week and on Sundays is still treating them like shit.

Or do you mean that we should consider your reasons why it's OK to not consider other human beings to be people, or why we should treat them like shit? We have. They're universally terrible.

>>53658245
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that Wizards can be sincere about anything.

>>53651751
>"non-binary success to make those failure rolls less BORING!"

Fucking SJWs, getting their weird genders all over my action resolution mechanics

>>53658245
It is textbook virtue signalling that does nothing. I don't think anyone is really so dumb that they can't figure out they can do it even though it isn't written there. No one is going to benefit and it's just Comm Studies undergrads' attempt at media control instead of you know, actually doing something that would cost time and money.

It's like shaming someone for making fun of the autistic kid because they don't know any better because they don't have any friends instead of making friends with the autistic kid because even they know the autistic kid is a fucking shithead

>>53658245
Maybe being next door to /pol/ makes me see writing on the wall where there isn't any, but from where I'm looking the actual best way of handling it would be to avoid mentioning it at all, because it really doesn't carry any immediate relevance. In my personal experience references like this are usually progressive preening rather than born of any genuine concern for the minority groups in question.

>>53658179
>>53658248
I've also mentioned how I wouldn't have minded this before, and I have never told you anything about my personal life, such as the fact that there is a trans at my current table.

The reason lines like this bother me is because they're used as talking points by the other side as an excuse to ridicule and harass people like me. Why would I not find this distrustful, even ignoring the points where it doesn't come off as sincere and in many cases winds up being insulting to the crowd they're trying to make good with?

It doesn't really matter though. One person tried to open up about the real issues and was attacked. So it's an understandable position why this type of thing would be seen as bad.

>>53658248
>If you're upset by "trans people are people too and don't deserve to be treated like shit,"
That's a nice strawman you've built there.

>>53651751
Partial successes are pretty fucking sweet.

>>53658248
>we tried the 3/5 thing, it didn't work
To go off on a tangent, the North didn't want coloreds to count at all and all the abolitionists including Lincoln wanted to free the slaves so they could be sent back to Africa. Also, nelson mandela was a terrorist who bombed shopping centers on christmas and should have been executed.

>>53658207
"Trans people exist and you can be one" is not a political statement (except insofar as all art is political), are the kind of idiot that assumes every instance of a black person as a main character is a political statement too?

>>53658391
>as an excuse to ridicule and harass people like me

Tell me, did you feel like you were being targeted before or after you started complaining about a few lines of 'you be you' in a book?

>>53652406
>I understand failing forward
>Fails in giving an example
>Is corrected, with a better example shown to teach him the difference.
>Meta failing forward, rl.

>>53658494
Why would you roleplay as a trans character when you could just play as the opposite sex?

>>53657721
>Plus saxon recordings of norwegian "shield maidens" who dressed as men, fought as men, and learned the art of combat.
Questionable accounts at best, and even if true, constitute extreme outliers.

The rest is correct, and I see no reason to contest it. Gender roles were usually very strict, and basically everything you just mentioned tells of a different culture in which women were considered strong and capable.

This does not entail, nor imply, egalitarian - nor feminist. The fact that women had a strong social position is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that women had a very strong social position with clearly defined areas of ownership and control instead implies a social and legal framework relating to gender dichotomy and equal-but-different shared responsibilities.

>aside from what you get from revisionist documents
It's funny, because you don't seem to know what revisionism entails, you just use it as a slur, which is symptomatic of marxist politicals conflating reactionary with revisionist and/or relating revisionism as a whole with Soviet revisionism and "tankies".

My point being that it's ironic that you'd accuse me of learning viking history from "revisionist documents" when you're citing "saxon recordings of norwegian shield maidens", which is in itself part of relatively modern historical revisionism, as new facts are added and history reconsidered and thus revised.

>Ragnar, one of the more famous norsemen, married a shieldmaiden named Lagertha
If you'd know any viking history aside from what you get from Tumblr and the TV-show "Vikings", you'd know that Lagertha is most likely entirely fictional, and subject of nordic legend.

>>53652850
In which systems does gender matter mechanically?

>>53658391
>I've also mentioned how I wouldn't have minded this before, and I have never told you anything about my personal life, such as the fact that there is a trans at my current table.
>I have many black friends!

Kek.

>people like me.

Which is? Because so far, it's proven to be "person who gets triggered when you're reminded that trans people exist and that prevailing opinion is shifting towards it not being OK to treat them like shit."

>>53658405
But that's literally the entire crux of the line in the book. They just say you can be some variety of non-binary, and that's OK.

>>53658474
That's awfully disingenuous, friend. If it weren't a point of contention then it wouldn't warrant mention.

>>53658535
>If you'd know any viking history aside from what you get from Tumblr and the TV-show "Vikings", you'd know that Lagertha is most likely entirely fictional, and subject of nordic legend.
???much like the games we play here???

Seriously, if it's good enough to put in nordic legends, what's wrong with it in games?

>>53658391
You've heard the saying "birds of a feather flock together"? If people like you are being ridiculed and harassed, then maybe the question isn't why the people on the opposite side are doing this, but what the people on your side are doing to make them think you're worthy of ridicule and harassment. You might want to stand up and say "no, that's not what we stand for, and fuck you for trying to use my affiliation for your bullshit."

If you're not garbage, then stop letting garbage associate with you.

>>53658405
Not a strawman. That's what >>53657749 posted before he got upset in >>53657782.

>>53658494
>all art is political
It is not, though. This is nothing but a regurgitated marxist meme.

>>53658530
Because maybe someone wishes to play a trans character? There is no further justification needed.

>>53658624
Sounds magical realmy, that doesn't fly at my table.

>>53658617
Art always expresses the values of society as you see it and as you wish it to be. There's no way around this.

>Marxist

Which makes it wrong how? It's not like everything ever said by every Marxist ever is wrong just on the basis of them being Marxists.

>>53658642
>gender identity is magical realm

So you have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old.

>>53658585
>But that's literally the entire crux of the line in the book.
Okay, stop right there. Are you confusing fiction with reality? "It is an option to pretend to be a fictional trans person in this particular game of make-believe" is pretty far from "trans people are people too and don't deserve to be treated like shit", regardless of the merits of either statement.

>>53658690
These statements are intrinsically linked, since all art is political. Making this statement in the book further the normalization of the second statement.

>>53658683
Have you ever met a tranny where it wasn't a sex thing?

>>53658108
The left in general tends to try and keep playing chess even while the right is busy setting fire to the room, but I think we can all agree that the stereotypical SJW is well beyond caring about such things.

Question to leftists: if a culture has strict gender roles and actively ostracizes or persecutes gays, trannies and "queers", do you hate that entire culture?

>>53658405
>That's a nice strawman you've built there.
I'd say that it's a full fucking hut they've got going, well on their way to a palace entirely built by straw, which they'll then do a home invasion of and squat in, claiming eminent domain and/or adverse possession.

>>53658726
All of the trans people I have ever met. It's just an expression of their gender identity; it's not intrinsically linked to fucking.

>>53657418
>>53657375
>>53657465
Probably because the term "hermaphrodite" has a stigma attached to it?
I believe the term that is used now is "intersex."

So yes. Pretty much for "political correctness."

>>53658535
The subject of historical context isn't what we're debating here. It's the fact that you seem to think that players of a fantasy game should not be allowed to play a gender beyond what is considered the norm, equating it to wanting to play a pony or a werewolf in Game of Thrones. Even if the concept of transgendered people was a work of fiction which it is clearly NOT, Magic, dragons, elves, dwarves and the like are entirely imagined. They are not real, they only care about what the writers say they should care about.

Transgendered and other nonbinary people are real. They are not "Degenerates." they are not degenerates any more than someone with depression is, or someone who's gay or bisexual. Transgendered women and men can, in fact, still have kids through donors and other modern medical processes. And this is ignoring the fact that the world is already overpopulated and there are millions of kids waiting to be adopted by parents who would otherwise be extruded through a system that plops them onto the streets at age 18.

>>53658766
That's weird because all the ones I know are autogynephiles and post their girldick on craigslist because no one else will fuck them.

>>53658245
To add my 2 cents to this whole conversation, I think the "you can play LGBT characters in a fantasy setting" paragraph wasn't included to preach inclusivity to groups who don't care about social politics, nor to pander to the SJ crowd and feel good about being "progressive"
I think the point was mostly to give trans players solid ammo and examples against the shitty mentality of "nuh uh you can't play trans PCs in fantasy, it's out of place/not ~realistic~/not part of the setting/out of place".
Basically just a reminder along the lines of "yeah you guys can play trans in our settings, here's a god whose gender is fucking weird, go nuts" and letting the decision of allowing this kind of character come down to the group/GM's preference, not to what the setting has room for.

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>>53658722
>all art is political
What about solely abstract art like that of Piet Mondrian?

>>53658759

They like Muslims and the Middle East, don't they

>>53658799
Why would you play a transexual instead of the opposite sex? Where's the escapism there?

>>53658759
Not necessarily, but that aspect of the culture is certainly something to dislike, and the more central those beliefs are to the broader culture the more I would dislike the broader culture.

>>53658792
Well maybe if you'd stop meeting trans people through craigslist you'd have a less skewed perception.

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>>53658722
>These statements are intrinsically linked
No.

>since all art is political
Lolno.

The reaching and the mental gymnastics here is astounding. Someone call Guinness.

>>53658722
You are correct but also being quite disingenuous. I could well use that same logic to show an intrinsic link between "you can play a trans character" and "trans people are a protected class who must be mollycoddled at every turn and mention of them must be shoehorned everywhere even when not relevant to the topic at hand". It's still a strawman.

>>53658824
That's like saying that someone likes the KKK because they like Tennesee williams plays.

>>53658819

I dunno, man, Red is clearly oppressing blue there, and yellow exerts an influence far beyond its alotted area.

>>53658662
>It's not like everything ever said by every Marxist ever is wrong just on the basis of them being Marxists.
No, but close enough. Marxists that aren't wrong stop being marxists.

>>53658624
>There is no further justification needed.
If you want to play a snowflake, then yes, you will have to justify it at my table. Magical realms and super-unique mary sues with more mental health issues and special edges than can be counted have no place in 99,9% of games and settings.

Much like in the realm world, really.

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>>53658883

>>53658869
Are Tennesse williams plays about persecuting blacks? Because Muslims in the middle east do actively persecute gays and all sort of other groups.

>>53658759
Well, nazi culture is a pretty good example of a culture that should be hated. Yeah. Hate, as an emotion, has a place. Hating a thing does not make you a bad person, WHAT you hate determines whether or not your a bad person. If you hate the injustices inflicted on a group of people, the men that perpetuate it, or the regiment that allows it, that is hatred well-placed. If you hate someone for having a different skin color, god, or lifestyle than you, that is hatred poorly used. It's like a house is on fire and you have a firehose, but you aim it at your neighbor's window and flood their living room because FUCK Greg and his god-damn lawn gnomes!

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>>53658830
A leftist who wants to gain the brownie points of being part of an oppressed minority group without actually having to live as one in real life.

>>53658777
Intersex=/=hermaphrodite

>>53658956
Problem with this logic is who gets to decide what constitutes a hateful action against another person or culture?

>>53658824
That's a pretty sweeping statement.

>>53658662
>Which makes it wrong how?
Because Marxism is by itself a rebellion against reality.

>It's not like everything ever said by every Marxist ever is wrong just on the basis of them being Marxists.
Individual would-be Marxists do not constitute Marxist memes. Not everything ever said by people that happen to be Marxists is automatically wrong simply because they were Marxists at the time, but everything ever said by Marxism is practically wrong by definition.

>>53658965
That's about as disgusting and offensive as the blackface trannies do pretending to be women. I'll allow it.

>>53658989

Yeah, I admit. It's really more of the radical left that seem to buddy up with them for some reason.

>>53658953
Which muslum sect? There are a ton. Suni, Sufi, Shi'a, Ahmadiiiya, Kawa'arij. Christians in america actively persecute gays and all sorts of other groups. So do a lot of asatru norse pagans.

>>53658956
But isn't it racist to hate muslims, latin americans, Eastern Europeans and pretty much all Africa?

>>53658956
But the *entire* culture? Nazi ideology was about more than just gassing Jews.

>>53658983
Please explain. I would like to learn more.

What is the difference?

>>53658830
There's no shortage of reasons. Off the top of my head, maybe someone wants to live out a fantasy of easy transition (both physical and social). And if the player is looking to play a self-insert fantasy, a PC who is going through the same issues may be easier to project on/relate to than a PC who's always been the desired sex.

Also, consider how a poor player who'd like to be rich may not specifically love playing a PC who was born into wealth, and might enjoy a PC with a (backstory or future game goal) rags-to-riches story arc.

>>53653193
Thats why you dont put the important stuff behind a secret door without a secondary way to find it. puzzels that open with the option to just open it if they actually find it. as a general rule of thumb, i only place optional shit behind secret doors, whether it be extra treasure or a shortcut out of the ruins.

>>53658766
>All of the trans people I have ever met.
How many trans people have you met? Transexuals only constitute 0.1-0,3% of the population, even in the western world, and it is often considered to be even lower than that.

Even if we were to count LGBT as a whole, only between 1,2-6,8% would identify with it.

If you're somehow surrounded by these people, it's no surprise your world-view is completely fucking distorted.

>>53658986
Easy.
>Is the action aimed at a person whose condition cannot be helped. I.E Race, gender, sex, birthplace.

>Does the action restrict or endanger the aforementioned person's life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness (Provided this happiness does not harm another individual)

>If so, then this warrants action. Whether motivated by hatred of the opressor, empathy for the opressed, or abstracts such as justice, law, or faith.

Hate is not the sole tool to judge that kind of behavior. A little common sense and empathy go a long way.