Horus Heresy General /hhg/

First for tabletop standard!

>>53430214
>>53430250
>That would be me, although I don't get the reference. Everyone on board!

Thanks!

The reference is to the Mechanicum Stormbird that anon is going to build using a toy whale. He's been talking about it for ages but it looks like it's getting close to happening.

>>53430214
Comfy bread summary. +1 to your Reserves rolls

>>53430214
First for secondment to the third legion, fourth company, fifth section, sixth bunk.

>>53430323
>"First"

A classic example of the most excellent perfection of the Third Legion.

Thread is dead so I'm reposting my old 3k list of Iron Warriors, now 2500 points of infantry.

HQ:
Legion Centurion, volkite charger
- 60 points
Legion Centurion, Legion Vigilator Consul
- 85 points
Elites:
Legion Terminator Squad, 10x Cataphractii Terminators, lightning claw on Sergeant, 2x Terminators w. heavy flamer & single lightning claw, 7x pairs of lightning claws
- 465 points
Apothecarion Detachment, 2x Apothecary
- 90 points
Apothecarion Detachment, 2x Apothecary
- 90 points
Troops:
Legion Tactical Squad, 20x Legionnaires
- 225 points
Legion Tactical Squad, 20x Legionnaires
- 225 points
Legion Tactical Support Squad, 5x plasma gun
- 175 points
Heavy Support:
Iron Havoc Support Squad, 10x Havocs, 10x lascannon
- 460 points
Iron Havoc Support Squad, 5x Havocs, 5x lascannon
- 260 points
Iron Havoc Support Squad, 10x Havocs, 10x missile launcher, augury scanner on Sergeant
- 365 points

Blobs and plasma squad fight infantry, Havocs take care of fliers, tanks, MC and elites, apothecaries boost 10+ power armour units, terminators look cool, wreck stuff in melee and waste points and can quickly be hacked off alongside the Vigilator for a quick 2K list.

You know how there was a minor uproar about the rumor that the Horus vs. Emps fight would get changed relative to old fluff?

I'm not sure I see a problem. The story of The Emperor holding back against Horus until a human soldier/Custodes/terminator gets zapped to death doesn't really make sense. Horus had already killed Sanguinius at that point! I can't imagine the Emperor playing nice at the start of their duel.

Also, Oll Pearson has a chaos blade with him in the novels, so he's likely to do more than just get fried in an instant.

>>53430278
Well, I just ordered the whale, a greenstuff cable making thing and also a Ferratonic Incinerator for the walkways (from Triple Helix, because it was the only place going) so I should be able to start things off. Obviously that's not all the stuff I need, still needs four Stormraven engines and a bridge, plus armour, but I can certainly get started.

>>53430695
Yep. It's old fluff that's likely to be propaganda in the "IRL" of 40K

>>53430657
I'd add Siege Tyrants at the expense of some Iron Havocs. They stick together, and the Siege Tyrants defend the Iron Havocs against deep striking assault units.

Did Imperial Fists have a preferred armor mark and think others shit, or did they use whatever for the job done?

>>53430931
Mk III is the most common between IF

>>53430931
>>53430966
Nah, they might have used more Mark III than the "average" Legion before Mark IV was developed (what with their speciality of boarding assault and assaulting enemy strongpoints) but I don't imagine it'd be more common than MK IV or II, considering the very significant drawbacks MK III have in comparison and the fact that they were largely stationed near Terra and Mars.

>>53431008
I don't know anon. I might identify them with mk III because of their use in boarding and defense operations

>>53430931
Officially (going off book 3) they didn't have a strong preference except that they used more Terminator armor than most and were among the first to use Indomitus-pattern Termie armor. I think it's reasonable to assume that if they're into Terminator armor, they'd like Mk III more than the other marks.

But they're not like the Emperor's Children who actively disdained certain marks (Mk III in their case).

File: EC MkIII.png (2MB, 863x1253px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 863x1253px

>>53431297
They used less MkIII because that's a full-frontal no-nonsense "specialist" armour, and ECs used other tactics like outflanking, and even counted the time they'd spend on shooting point A or cover point C. Other legions used it more because they had more zones mortalis missions, like siegeing garrisons, zones mortalis garrisoning corridors, ship boarding agressive garrisoning or frontal assault garrisoning no man's land

>>53431415
>full-frontal
Funny that they weren't into it.

File: 1479584712048.jpg (369KB, 2656x1494px) Image search: [Google]

369KB, 2656x1494px

>>53431297
>>53430931
The IF enjoyed MkIII (due to greater protection), but would happily use anything available. Like the IW, they tended to prefer heavy armor options, but they also weren't too picky, and would use the full range of what they had available.

Few legions had actual 'preferred' marks, since usually it was either due to tactical viability (i.e. EC not using much MkIII since their combat doctrine is centered around speed and flexibility, not slow armor, RG preferring MkVI for it's enhanced stealth and recon capabilities) or due to supply limitations (i.e. a number of the Loyalist legions had limited supplies of MkIV compared to MkII+III because Horus had many of the shipments routed to his own forces, or how in existing canon MkVII was only available for the Legions present at for the Siege of Terra)

>>53431485
EC would rather get you from the sides or from behind than full frontal. And even then, they'd much rather be in a more 'aesthetically clean' suit like MkIV than something as crude as MkIII.

>>53431616
Yeah, there aren't many examples of legions feeling strongly about it.

In Brotherhood of the Storm, Ilya wonders if Yesugei (White Scars Librarian who was the Khan's buddy/vassal before the Emperor arrived at Chogoris) is wearing Mk II out of conservatism. She's a general in the Departamento Munitorum, so presumably she would know that he could've gotten a newer suit of armor and chose not to. He's of the Khan's top men, after all.

It's probably true because it fits the character - part of Yesugei's story is that, as a child, [spoilers]he went up to the mountains where they send presumed psykers and had a vision where representations of the chaos gods asked him to drink a strange brew while the Emperor watched. He took a sip, said it was polite to only take a small amount, and the gods' avatars left disappointed.[/spoilers] Basically, a 'take only what you need' attitude. Mk IV doesn't have wheels or jets so no big difference.

File: 8th CCW - WS3+ S4.jpg (268KB, 1027x521px) Image search: [Google]

268KB, 1027x521px

Reminder that power axes will remain the smart choice in 30k (if you don't have access to power fists).

>>53426664
Pigeon girl? I started into these breads a little after her; like I said would tap but faces are for selfie land, (even if they are nice)

As for exercise thats the spirit! Work on the aim so you can average a better than 50% hit ratio and your a Veletaris Choom/Axeguy without the armour! Oh and chop wood. Lots of it. FORESTS of it to get that swing just perfect

>>53426863
I trust my fists to be more accurate than the lasgun however.

File: 1475168432256.jpg (152KB, 1233x812px) Image search: [Google]

152KB, 1233x812px

>>53430214
post Big War Machines, Titans, ships, superheavy Tanks. preferably Heresy Era. Anything you have please.

>tfw no Horus Heresy Battlefleet game

I'm thinking about going pre-heresy/great crusade theme with my bases. Which one would be the most interesting?

> IG/human
> eldar
> orks (ullanor)
> tyranids (murder megarachnids)

>>53432116
I have a small-ish Firestorm Armada fleet that's mostly finished. Black with grey drybrush for the wonderful instant tabletop quality, though the ships need to be touched up and have details added.

It isn't 30/40K though, so I'm guessing that won't cut it?

>>53431221
Yet the likes of Phalanx Wardens are in MkIV.

MkIII was a specialist armour not really designed to be standard issue.

Would it be inappropriate for shunned-within-Legion Terran veterans to wear Mk 4s? Because I have Mk 3 for all those painting nightmarish ridges and rivets.

>>53432322
Which legion, and what do you mean by the second part of your post?

>>53432247
Astartes are also specialists not really designed to be standard issue.

>>53432322
Not necessarily, though it's a bit odd for shunned guys to have the latest tech

File: IH_Legion_Glaives_battle.png (2MB, 1078x705px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1078x705px

>>53432116

>>53432350
I'm suck at painting and highlighting 40~50 Mk 3 legs who are (my headcanon-wise) RG Terran-born vets seems nightmare.

My bad for posting half-asleep

>>53432350
>Astartes are also specialists not really designed to be standard issue

Not what he's talking about. MK III is MK II with additional armour bolted on for increased protection, with a LOT of flaws in return. I'm not sure but it makes sense for MK III suits to be suits of MK II produced on a Forge World and modified on an as-needed basis by tech-marines and attached mechanicum personnel, considering.

Also, Astartes are too designed for standard use? It wasn't until after the Heresy their numbers dropped too low to fight massed battles by themselves. And with a lot of Primarchs dead/gone traitor with their Legions, their ability to rebuild their numbers took a huge hit as well.

>>53432350
>Astartes are also specialists not really designed to be standard issue.

Fucking retards...

>"MkIII was a specialist armour for the Space Marines not really designed to be standard issue Space Marine armour."

Do I really have to fucking spell this out for your autistic ass? You think if Delta operatives have a standard issue flak jacket and then a heavier one for special operations, you're gonna say neither of them are standard issue, because Deltas are not regular troopers? Learn to fucking context.

File: IMG_2837.jpg (164KB, 1214x701px) Image search: [Google]

164KB, 1214x701px

What are you guys working on?
Assembled three Haeteroi myself, now that the paragon blade/spear issue is finally clarified. Tried to make them look totally at easy to convey just how good they are in battle. Not sure if I really succeeded, but I quite like the blade resting on the right guy's shoulder.

>>53432401
You could always follow my tabletop-level way of painting black power armour:

>Prime Black
>Drybrush Dawnstone
>Wash Nuln Oil
>Clean up with Imperial Primer/Abbadon Black if you really need to
>Apply damage and weathering etc to taste

>>53432444
They look great, I might have to steal that idea

>>53432401
If the rest of the legion gets Mk VI then I can see them giving the Terrans Mk IV. Especially if it's post-Isstvan V, when there were few legionnaires left and they could basically get whatever they wanted from the legions' stores.

>>53432444
Where are those power sabres from, anon? They give an EC look. Positively regal.
Also, what was the issue with Paragon blades and Hetairoi?

>>53432498
>what was the issue with Paragon blades and Hetairoi?

Seeing the amount of typos and no other unit, not even the shield captain, having the option, people assumed "paragon blade" meant "paragon spear". Then FW said "no, it's totes blade".

>>53432498
They're found in the Sanguinary Guard kit. Sadly only one such blade per kit, though there is alot of other neat stuff in there.
As for the paragon weaponry issue, Haeteroi have the option to take paragon blades, but many people, me included, assumed that entry to mean paragon *spears*, what with the general quality of Inferno and all. Now that's been cleared up by an email from FW and it actually is paragon blades.

File: mad-marine.jpg (67KB, 855x377px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 855x377px

>>53432443
You're right, anon, but watch out you're going to burst a vein there.
>>53432416
The bulk of Compliance were mortal armies, and in fact displays of power coupled with diplomacy could win worlds over. Some of them didn't even have space capabilities but still had desirable resources or, lacking that, had people. You know, like Caliban, Chemos, Olympia, Chogoris, Fenris, Nostramo, Baal, Medusa, Barbarus, Prospero, Chtonia, Colchis and Nocturne.
I'm omitting Nuceria because fuck worthless Nuceria
My interpretation is that, while mortals did the bulk of the compliance, the astartes legions were the leading edge of it, and when requested would solve whatever conflicts mortals alone weren't able to.

>>53430734
Post pics when it arrives.

>>53432617
Makes sense that you'd use Astartes on the offensive then use pre-posthumans to consolidate the gains. Kind of how you'd use tanks and infantry in the real world.

I don't think there's any hope of asking players to restrict Mk III to specific squads. Lots of us are starting with BoP, and 30 power armored dudes is enough for a lot of armies.

File: Page50-1.jpg (5MB, 5262x3502px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 5262x3502px

>>53432116
Big tonks

Has the Mastodon appeared in a spread like this yet?

File: Warlord-vs-Knight.jpg (193KB, 2378x1415px) Image search: [Google]

193KB, 2378x1415px

Just read Fallen Angels.

and holy shit, why are the Dark Angels so fucking terrible? How can you even lose control of your own fucking homeworld.

File: Page86-7.jpg (5MB, 5224x3528px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 5224x3528px

>>53432732
Slightly less big, but more numerous tanks

>>53432764
>don't talk to me or my son ever again
Also
>putting a CCW for a warlord

>>53432617
That doesn't make the Legionnaires less standard, especially in the early years of the Crusade. Astartes weren't anything close to as rare as they'd become in later millenia, and Legions could use tactics more reminiscent of Imperial Army formations if they had to without crippling themselves.

The Legions were a wholly different organisation than the Imperial Army and predated it, if memory serves, so Army regiments outnumbering them doesn't make a bolter+power armour marine any less standard issue than a lasgun. Arguably more so, considering how wildly individual worlds supplied their regiments (while the Legions were largely uniform, even more so internally).

File: Page54-5.jpg (5MB, 5256x3522px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 5256x3522px

>>53432791
Man, years ago, when it first got released as a plastic kit, I remember the Baneblade being hyped as a big tank in the heresy - they said there were "whole brigades of baneblades" back in the day, while in 40k every one was a rare and precious thing - any of you guys see many 'blades?

And would you use them in your armies, especially when the legion tanks exist?

I'd ask if any Imperial Militia/Auxilia players use them, but are there even any players in the first place?

File: 1475244102719.png (891KB, 1200x927px) Image search: [Google]

891KB, 1200x927px

>>53432791
>>53432732
lets post some actual big guns

File: I have become [WORST PRIMARCH].jpg (94KB, 740x591px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 740x591px

>>53432764
>How can you even lose control of your own fucking homeworld.
It's more likely than you think. Free PC check.

>>53432939
Ok.
>unzips dick

File: Lance.png (1MB, 1055x800px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1055x800px

>>53432939
Alrighty then

>>53432764
>How can you even lose control of your own fucking homeworld.
Ask the Iron Warriors.

File: 4DdD2uO.jpg (595KB, 1680x1289px) Image search: [Google]

595KB, 1680x1289px

>>53432982
is there one of a Plasma Macro Battery?
>>53432915
I still prefer the Baneblade to all it's peers. And Tanks being crewed by Astartes just feel wrong to me. I think a Techpriest and half a crew of Servitors would do a better job of it than Spess Marens.

File: Genome soldiers.jpg (89KB, 520x585px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 520x585px

>>53432814
I get your point, but I wouldn't call a heavy assault trooper a baseline trooper, especially when they weren't the first ones. Before getting Thunder Warriors and back when he was but a warlord, the Emperor used genehanced mortal armies. Not to mention at the end of the Unification wars the legions were a few chapters in strenght.
At the end of the assault on the Tempest Galleries, the brand new XVIIIth of 20000 legionnaries had been reduced to but a thousand warriors.
My argument isn't about standards per se, but more about who was the baseline warrior of the Great Crusade.
In 40k marines are too few and are less common than the actual special forces Tempestus Scions, and in 30k there were more of them but still they were heavy assault rather than "the norm", simply because there has always been more mortals than marines in the Emperor's service.

File: IMG_20170525_064949.jpg (236KB, 1133x616px) Image search: [Google]

236KB, 1133x616px

>>53432444

Slowly working on the crew.

File: Defence Laser.jpg (120KB, 1000x793px) Image search: [Google]

120KB, 1000x793px

>>53433009
I don't think so, sadly.

I love that diagram though, one of my favourites for showing the land-battleship nature of the superheavies

>>53433140
>I wouldn't call a heavy assault trooper a baseline troope

If you're in an army of heavy assault troopers with more specialized heavy assault grenadier troopers, heavy assault sapper troopers and heavy assault artillery troopers, then then heavy assault trooper that's not one of those, who is the most common type of heavy assault trooper, is the standard, baseline heavy assault trooper.

>>53433209
>tfw you never got to deep strike an orbital defence laser onto the battlefield

>>53432814
Consider that Germany and its allies invaded the USSR with 3.5 million men. There were probably 2-2.5 million Astartes at their peak. Doesn't that make their numbers look small? If you're invading a world with regular humans, you're going to several million at the very least, more likely dozens of millions, and suddenly you've dwarfed the total number of Astartes just to take a single world.

Now repeat 100,000 times (assuming most compliances were peaceful).

>>53433293
When a massive space fleet parks on your orbit, nukes a few strategic sites and super soldiers bash your armies, it doesn't matter if the people want to surrender or not, they're outgunned and can only comply. Then Marines more onward and it's the Army that's left to pick up the pieces.

It's usually the worlds with any good tech and orbital defences that give Marines a hard time.

File: ImperialArmy.jpg (219KB, 302x685px) Image search: [Google]

219KB, 302x685px

>>53433255
>Pic related is a heavy assault trooper
200 000 posthuman supersoldiers among a planet's worth of mortal troops aren't really the baseline.

File: Gardinaal.png (457KB, 365x544px) Image search: [Google]

457KB, 365x544px

>>53433335
>When a massive space fleet parks on your orbit, nukes a few strategic sites and super soldiers bash your armies, it doesn't matter if the people want to surrender or not, they're outgunned and can only comply.
If only that was true. Yet another falsehood.
The Imperial army did its thing, and whenever it encountered an impass, they called specialists like marines, or Titans / Taghmata / Reductors / Knights if available.
Against planets with M3-tier militaries like ours, they didn't have that much of a problem.

>>53433388
Did you even read my post to the end?

>>53433339
Anon, you're not getting anywhere by ignoring what's being said.

File: MaSade.png (592KB, 284x1476px) Image search: [Google]

592KB, 284x1476px

>>53433471
What you say reads like mortals don't exist at all. And Gardinaal had shit orbital defenses, and mostly used tank waves, nukes and AT-ATs to repel the Ultramarines.
So, I disagree with all three sentences of your previous post, yes. The second one is true, but you're not accounting for when the fight isn't fought by marines.
Like pretty much all of BL.
>>53433504
Ignoring what?
All of this comes from the fact someone said marines weren't the baseline human soldier in reference on how MkIII isn't a baseline armour mark but one designed for specialist use, and now you're saying humanity's armies are heavy assault troopers, with even heavier grenadier troops and heavy sapper and heavy artillery troops.
How do (You) describe mortals, then?

>>53433689
>What you say reads like mortals don't exist at all.

By mentioning Army?

Marines were the spearhead of Great Crusade. It wasn't until the very end of the when Army began to move to the front of the advance and pick up the slack. A planetary assault would need to start with Marines leading the way and targeting the primary threats while Army and other forces handle the secondary targets and mop up after the Marines.

>Gardinaal had shit orbital defenses

But clearly didn't have shit tech. It's not like the claim was that for a plane to fight back, they needed to have good tech AND good orbital defences. Either or both would do for the most part. Good orbital defences would mean the ships have harder time approaching and good tech means they can fight on the ground with more than sticks and stones.

>>53433689
>someone

Could you point to the exact post, so I don't have to speculate here?

File: Mk III jump pack.jpg (90KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 480x640px

I think a lot of us are just talking past each other now.

Marines were specialist if you look at the Imperium's forces as a whole. That's true. But they often had generalized tasks so they might not necessarily wear task-specific armor. Mk III is often described that way... but it's also pretty damn common in the stories. Not talking about Black Library here, but FW's black books.

There are a lot more Mk III color plates than Mk II, and all of the Mk II color plates are either set earlier in the Crusade, belong to a poorly-supplied legion, or a legion that expanded earlier than the rest. The black books seriously make it look like Mk II was used less than Mk III during the Heresy.

The modeling situation (plastic Mk III) greatly compounds that. You are going to see a lot of Mk III in real life. I'm just going to ignore the objections in my head and embrace the Mk III.

File: salsuginis jago keck.jpg (1MB, 2592x1456px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2592x1456px

>>53433689
Not him, but Astartes being Standard doesn't exclude the Imperial Army being the largest fighting force.

Basically, the early Astartes were the baseline soldiers of the early Crusade. As the campaign progressed their function remained the same (strike planetary targets with immense force, destroying leadership and in general cutting the head of the snake), though their role in the overall armed forces changed (from the common baseline troop fighting in the front to assault specialists) - though not without exceptions like the Iron Warriors, who appear to have trucked on as usual.

This doesn't mean Astartes aren't "standard" soldiers, in the sense that their organisation is entirely separate and by far more cohesive than the Imperial Army or the various Forge Worlds etc supplying other specialist forces.

All good? All good.
Now tell me more about how my drybrushed marines are too sloppy for tabletop standard.

>>53433823
>make it look like Mk II was used less than Mk III during the Heresy.

Wouldn't be surprising, seeing that the MkIV was already replacing the MkII as the standard suit with MkVI being tested, and with the Heresy both it and the MkV began to see more use.

MkIII, as a specialist suit, would still retain its uses due to the heavy front armour. There wasn't really any alternatives for it, so it would stand reason that it got used for the purpose it was built.

File: WP_20170520_002.jpg (1MB, 2592x1456px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2592x1456px

>>53433823
Go ahead. It's perfectly reasonable for a company-sized force to go all MK III even for EC, considering the number of suits spread across even the smallest Legion.

Real men don't use power armour tho

>>53433878
>Real men don't use power armour tho
Boys join the marines; men join the Auxilia.

>>53433822
By >>53432350

File: Everyone's a hero when there's nowhere left to run.jpg (47KB, 272x579px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 272x579px

>>53433805
>A planetary assault would need to start with Marines leading the way and targeting the primary threats while Army and other forces handle the secondary targets and mop up after the Marines.
That's not the only way, as pic related says.

>>53433265
>deep strike an orbital defence laser
...there's something I'm missing here, isn't there?

Though I know in Planetstrike there was such a thing as a Drop-Bastion available as a stratagem

File: clean IW.png (48KB, 291x496px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 291x496px

>>53433843
I disagree in all senses with your post.
Especially about this Warsmith (?) Salty Jago being too sloppy for tabletop use. He looks nice, especially with all that brass.
You won't give him hazard strips?

>>53433689
>now you're saying humanity's armies are heavy assault troopers

No, I'm talking about Marines. In a Marine army you have the "baseline marine" and then they have specialist troops. Aka. troops that aren't the baseline tactical mook rank and file Marine. And the MkIII is a suit for units engaging in situations where heavy protection is needed with minimal cover. Otherwise you'd use any number of the "standard issue" power armours, since the MkIII isn't the best all rounder, it makes compromises to achieve that protection.

>>53433947
If you just believe in yourself, you can achieve anything!
>Overwhelming firepower helps too.

>>53433947
That doesn't say they were landing on the planet without Marines, or that they were spearheading the assault, etc.

File: MkIII Fluff.jpg (2MB, 2321x3201px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2321x3201px

>>53434010
>No, I'm talking about Marines.
But I wasn't. I was talking about humanity in general.
I mean, of course MkIII isn't a baseline armour. Nobody would argue it is, when it's clearly not. Even the legions that had lots of MkIII, like IWs and IF and WE & DG still had a lot of MkIV base.

>>53433955
Old, 4e rules. If an immobile unit is held in reserves, it enters play via Deep Strike. Fortification rules didn't exist, so buildings were just immobile units you deployed normally.

I think 5e had something similar. I remember fantasizing about making Guard drop pods from Bastions by packing 20 dudes in and deep striking them onto the board.

File: guard assault.jpg (1MB, 1280x797px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1280x797px

>>53434040
Imperial Army has ways of landing on a planet that doesn't require marines.

For all intents and purposes, an Imperial Army/Guard Planetary Invasion is much more savage and severe than a Marine drop, since Marines do surgical strikes, compared to the mass assaults done by Guard/Army units.

Granted, before Guillimans reforms the Army units were more Auxilia and not equipped for the same challenges, but at least since the reforms the Imperial Guard is definately the Sledgehammer of the Imperium. Overshadowing even the old Expedition Fleets in terms of force.

File: SA landing Omahus beach head.jpg (50KB, 213x607px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 213x607px

>>53434040
True. It says that on another page. Oh so many marines in this one.

File: Mastodon.jpg (6MB, 5396x3480px) Image search: [Google]

6MB, 5396x3480px

>>53432732
Yes.

File: Drop Bastion.jpg (27KB, 299x400px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 299x400px

>>53434064
30k can still technically use Planetstrike I think - it'd be a very flavourful way to do Istvaan, that's for sure

I do kind of want to make some "clearly just deployed" fortifications and stuff - drop bastions in legion colours with big engines, aegis lines - some deployed, some about to be, drop caches, that sort of thing

File: sledgehammer-surgery.jpg (898KB, 2560x1440px) Image search: [Google]

898KB, 2560x1440px

>>53434096
>Imperial Army has ways of landing on a planet that doesn't require marines.

Yes, but none of that says Marines aren't also landing on the planet and going after more important targets, or haven't already wiped those targets away and the SA are there just to mop up.

>Marines do surgical strikes, compared to the mass assaults done by Guard/Army units.

...

File: Castellum Stronghold.png (725KB, 713x640px) Image search: [Google]

725KB, 713x640px

>>53434115
Thanks, that in book 7?

>>53434158
And of course you can't forget this amazing prefab motherfucker

File: ig deepstrike.jpg (165KB, 1280x1920px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 1280x1920px

>>53434064
I like this deepstriking fortresses thing.

File: d3d36fd358b1b3ffae47fd8cf4562a30.jpg (163KB, 1200x800px) Image search: [Google]

163KB, 1200x800px

>>53434160
Horus was literally famous for his "tip of the spear" surgical strikes at the enemy Command/HQ. While the Marines assault a single city or even valley at a time, the Imperial Army can open frontlines covering entire continents.

There is only so much ground you can cover with a few thousand Marines, as opposed to multiple million Human Soldiers.

File: Page80-81.jpg (5MB, 5324x3484px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 5324x3484px

>>53434202
Book six. Which also had this.

File: kasrkin.jpg (561KB, 1200x1491px) Image search: [Google]

561KB, 1200x1491px

>>53434160
>Sentences must explicitly include "and space marines weren't there" or else space marines were there
>I cannot prove a space marine isn't in this picture, since it's not stated he isn't there.

>>53434272
There's also no line that says planets were conquered by a force with no Marines of any kind attached to the force.

In, say, 4e IG codex it says that it wasn't until the end of the Crusade that Army units were being moved to the offensive on their own, as Marine lines were being stretched very thin. It also makes notes that it was a mistake to put Marines in charge of humans, because they demanded too much from the humans and exhausted them fast.

>>53432915
>any of you guys see many 'blades?
knights killed the baneblade

which sucks, because baneblades are awesome

>>53434158
Honestly, I love the idea that the Auxilla/IG could use larger pre-fab structures like that and either drop them in from orbit in fall-away drop equipment, or are eased down by bulk landers. Provided orbital support is on hand (and anti-air threats have been taken care of) Aux/IG forces could rapidly tighten their grip on an area by tossing enough pre-fabs at an area to create a heavy defensive line

>Terran Legionaires are all pretty chill dudes or at least honour bound

>primarch homeworld recruits are traitorous scum and barbarian savages easily tempted by chaos

this is the impression a wide array of HH books gave me. Pretty much everyone of the "Arch Traitors" (aka Erebus, Typhus, Kor Pharon, Ahriman, Abbadon etc) were from the Primarchs homeworld and any loyalty they ever had to the emperor seems feigned at best.

Compare that to people like Marius Gage, who loves his Primarch dearly but still recognizes his duty to the Emperor above everything, or Garro, who appears to be the only Death Guard not itching to betray the emperor.

Might be BLs fault.

>>53434462
Ahriman was Terran though. As was Kharn.

>>53434475
I honestly assumed Ahriman was not terran, but it makes sense with him not even being loyal to his own primarch in the end.

And I don't remember Kharn ever being mentioned to be terran.

>>53434532
One of the stories was about Kharn's training on Terra at the dawn of the crusade. Kharn is from the Urals. Ahriman is from the Achaemaeid Empire.

>>53434532
Kharn is a slav.

File: Ireton Motherfucking MaSade.jpg (130KB, 1061x434px) Image search: [Google]

130KB, 1061x434px

>>53434347
So apparently mortals can't win wars even against literal spearmen and horse archers. This is reaching "If a battlegroup lands on a hostile planet but no marine is there to fight, did it still happen?" levels.

>>53434272
>>53434347
Far be it from me to add fat to the fire of people just talking past one another, but I though you might be interested to remember that the setting of Legion is that an Exp Fleet specifically without Marines specifically asks for Marine reinforcements, as they can't crack the last bastion of the enemy on a planetary conquest campaign with just their own mortal soldiery.
I don't know if that helps or hinders either one of you, but it seemed pertinent.

File: Iron warrior squatting.png (23KB, 843x328px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 843x328px

>>53434565
I wonder about the power of his squats.

>>53431297
>and were among the first to use Indomitus-pattern Termie armor

>stationed on the capital of the Imperium
>right next to Mars
>use dogshit poorfag termie armour

File: there it is.gif (2MB, 390x205px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 390x205px

>>53434596
Nice. So this fleet had been operating without marines for some time, made planetfall without them and pretty much enacted an entire campaign in their absense, until they asked for extra help when faced with an obstacle they couldn't sort out.
I like those hats they wear.

>>53434532
Ahriman is one of the oldest marines kicking about by the time of the great betrayal my bro. He was in the first induction group of the XVth, which were made from people from one of the very first areas the Emperor conquered.
The only marine character we know for certain to be older that Ahriman is Astelan, who was literally one of the first ever 5,000 marines.
Though Iacton Qruze may be older, chiefly due to a continuity error Ben Counter made not being actually completely impossible.

>>53432322
They should have mkII

File: DG Heraldry.png (3MB, 1173x1594px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1173x1594px

>>53432732
Man, I already like the DG because of how they are and what they do, but their livery simply looks good.
>>53432791
Best legion serf.

>>53434626
Would you rather three tartaros or ten indomitus?

About when the Warrior Lodges began to spread out within Legions, and how did the Primarchs react to it? I remember Khan was pretty cool about it, but nothing else.

>>53434626
indomitus is bestitus

>>53434626

Isn't indomintus supposed to have better targeting systems but FW doesn't want to give them special rules because they want to sell Cata and Tarts?

File: Hades Drill.jpg (25KB, 600x620px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 600x620px

>>53434384
Fucking knights

>>53434398
It's definitely something cool - obviously you can have big dug-in fortifications, but these deployable ones that can pop up just hours after the marines or SA initial landing is very cool to me.

Course, for every fortification you need a fortification remover...

>>53434626
>dogshit poorfag termie armour
Oldfags, Indomitus used to have some kind of targeting systems, right? Besides deepstriking (which I think all termies should do), how could we make Indomitus great again?

>>53434727
We actually don't know for certain how most of the Primarchs reacted, we know more about how the Legionaries reacted as it happens.
I guess the implication is that if the legion had a WB-inspired Warrior Lodge, the Primarch knew and was 'I don't see the harm' in it tier.
Some legions told the WB to fuck off, either because legion culture was too impenetrable, or because they already had their own version.

File: Death Guard fellblade.jpg (415KB, 1600x1068px) Image search: [Google]

415KB, 1600x1068px

>>53434701
>Best legion serf.
Indeed.
I also find it notable (in light of my comment on the next pic) that it was a Legion Baneblade he was crewing

File: 1484574419728.png (28KB, 510x546px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 510x546px

>>53434752
>His termies can't teleport

>>53434588
How is it news to people that the Crusade was under the command of Marines who also spearheaded it? When you look at the list of known Expeditionary Fleets, Marines are in command of almost all of them.

So I'm sorry I'm expecting Marines to command and spearhead a typical Compliance Action with Army pulling up the rear and handling secondary and tertiary targets, as well as mopping up after the Marines once they move onto the next target.

>>53434728
It's explicitly the wors.

>>53434626
I bet anon is also upset that Knights-Errant make use of shitty MkVIs fresh off the factory floor from Mars, rather than superior MkII-IV suits.

File: do you even siege.jpg (189KB, 798x445px) Image search: [Google]

189KB, 798x445px

>>53434787
I'm thinking about our brother legions, anon. Teleporting is ranged garrison anyway :^)

>>53434836
You got any fluff to back that up, or just crunch?

>>53434752
>Indomitus used to have some kind of targeting systems, right?
the shoulder cameras are in-built targeters, which granted +1 to all to-hit rolls

it's an easy way to differentiate indomitus while giving it a niche of its own, which means FW will never do it

>>53434863
>Perhaps the most advanced form of Tactical Dreadnought Armour, the Tartaros pattern shares many systems with the MkIV ‘Maximus’ pattern of power armour, and provides greater mobility for its wearer than the Indomitus pattern with no loss in durability or protection.

>>53434987
By that same metric, every other PA that isn't MkIV is dogshit tier garbage.

>>53431616
i really like that purple cape

>>53435011
Does mkiv "provide greater mobility for its wearer with no loss in durability or protection" compared to all other armour marks? mkiii is tougher than it. Indomitus is dogshit because it's weaker than tartaros and cataphracti and also slower than tartaros. It's junk.

File: saturnine pattern.jpg (36KB, 360x480px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 360x480px

>>53435046
Considering MkIII is a frontal assault armour and the MkVI has an enhanced sensor suite, the correct comparison would be between the old MkII and the MkIV that was made to replace it. Supposedly the MkIV's solid plates were easier to repair than the multisection limbs of the MkII, that had micro components in them.
Give Saturnine plz

>>53435046
>Does mkiv "provide greater mobility for its wearer with no loss in durability or protection" compared to all other armour marks?

Is it not the best PA around?

>weaker than tartaros

No its not. Also, it wasn't long ago when Tartaros had 6++ instead of 5++, and after that it didn't have the ability to Sweep, but I guess FW smelled money and had to make their OC donut steel better.

>It's junk.

An insightful analysis.

File: sudden realization.gif (1006KB, 260x187px) Image search: [Google]

1006KB, 260x187px

>>53435114
>Also, it wasn't long ago when Tartaros had 6++ instead of 5++
Different anon, WTF when?

>>53435114
>An insightful analysis.
It's better than your non-arguments. Indomitus in the rules and fluff is the welfare suit. That doesn't mean you can't like it.

>>53434809
What's more interesting is the disposition of the marines. Like, in Horus Rising or someplace it says there's something like 4,500 fleets. Concurrent with this, we see that a great number of the legions are concentrated in single fleets.
The guys on detached duties on the other fleets, when we even see them, are sometimes not even company strength.
I wonder how these factors were decided upon. And that's not even getting into the infamous IW garrisons of a single squad.

>>53435187

GW can't into numbers.

Legions should have been at least 10x the size.

Just like how in 40k 1000 marines per chapter is laughable in effectiveness, should be something like 10 or 100k.

File: identical.jpg (97KB, 856x155px) Image search: [Google]

97KB, 856x155px

>>53435163
>suit isn't as advanced as the most advanced suit
>isn't as tough as the slow ass old suit
>ergo it's dogshit tier welfare junk

Do you write for BuzzFeed by any chance?

>>53432498
>>53432546
>>53432579

Wait does that mean the Shield captain can't take a paragon spear?

>>53435187
Even with a mere million marines, you'd still get well over 200 Marines per fleet.

Also, was every fleet a front line combat unit, or were some for reinforcements once areas were taken, exploring regions, etc.? Would seem like a second tier fleet sweeping in and setting up shop at a world would be a good thing, allowing the first tier assault fleet to move out and not bother with the world any more than necessary.

>>53435227
"Ayyy Sanguinius, Uncle Mal here. Just checking in on some numbers, how many of your dudes are rolling with you right now?"
"Like 80,000 my man."
"In one fleet?! Wow, you're blowing my mind here, Gwinny. Where's the other 20K?"
"Well there's 50 on Baal, maybe another 50 dudes on honour postings here and there, the other 19,900 are split up over the 4,500 fleets."
"Gwin...that'd be like 4 and a half guys for each fleet."
"Mal, we took 250 fleets each"
"Oh right, gimme a sec...so you sent...79 guys to each of your fleets? 79?! That your lucky number or something?"
"Nah, I sent out 100-strong companies to keep the numbers straight and then we just ran out of Blood Angels, so the last expeditionary fleets under my purview don't have any marines in at all!"
"You absolute madman, Sanguinius. Are all your brothers doing this shit?"
"Bro, half of them don't even gaf about the fleets and are rolling balls deep"
"Then whose marines are spearheading the crusade?!"
"Perturabo, we make him do everything."
"Who?"

>>53435311
>functionally identical
>besides the fact that indomitus is just slower
>he has nothing
Lol. Show me anything written by FW that gives Indomitus ANY advantage over Tartaros because I've done the opposite. I'll even accept a convenient little pocket for snacks. Literally anything.

File: 1494355283930.jpg (251KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

251KB, 1024x768px

>>53435187
Bear in mind, that the majority of the time Legions were being deployed in groups of anywhere from 500 marines to a few thousand (though this is far from being a rule, and some Legions preferred using much larger forces for balls-out frontal charges). This was mostly because, as we've covered many times before, a small number of Space Marines can accomplish much more with fewer men than Auxilia could. It allowed each Legion to cover considerably more ground, while larger targets would merit multiple fleets meeting up for a gang-bang.

>>53435367
Expeditionary Fleets are what it sounds like, so those 4,500 or so were frontliners. They supposedly all had to have enough of everything in them to be able to expand the Imperium.
Now, the ones shown tend to have WILDLY different orders of battle in the military component. 3 examples to show the scale:
>The fleet at Murder
3 companies of BA
4,000 strong army regiment
>Namitjira's fleet (Legion)
A half dozen regiments of fuckhuge size and a fucking Titan Legion. No marines.
>The good old 63rd
Most of the LW, most of the Legio Mortis, and a pretty enormous army regiment

I just picked 3 from the same author, there's others of bigger and smaller sizes. So I think from that we either take that the Imperial organisation was already a Kafka-esque nightmare, or more likely, they were assembling fleets for specific roles or campaigns. Primarchs had command authority over fleets, so presumably had specific fleets put under their supervision, to avoid everyone fucking over everyone else's plans.

The support and rear elements you mention are the compliance groups, the dudes who moved in to imperialise the planets after the fleets left. There were like 60,000 or maybe even 600,000 of those I think, can't really remember.

>>53435405
>unless a suit has something over the best suit, it's dogshit tier welfare junk

So, anon, do you drive a it's dogshit tier welfare junk? Do you enjoy living in a dogshit tier welfare junk?

Also, why is only FW fluff valid?

>>53435504
Compared to other terminator suits, obviously. A terminator suit is a terminator suit but Indomitus is the discount version.

File: Wolves do what they want.png (244KB, 362x379px) Image search: [Google]

244KB, 362x379px

>>53435383
>"Perturabo, we make him do everything."
>"Who?"
Son of a bitch, made me laugh.
Reminder that the DG usually fought as a single force, and the SW not only did the same but didn't answer mortal requests for help unless they felt like it.

>>53435410
I think the issue is not the logic in what you are saying, but the scale issue the other anon makes. Everyone says stuff like 500 guys are an amazing force multiplier or direct action group (true) so that's all the fleets needed. Cool. No problems with that or even lesser numbers.
The bit it becomes silly is conversely that you get the huge fleets with 80K guys in them, plus all the other shit. If you established you're good with 500 guys, why's the primarch always rolling with 60, 70, 80, thousand dudes.
Scaling is fucked, because then you could say, oh, they're taking on systems and star clusters etc, but then you get things like the main forces of the WB, SW and TS all teaming up to take on a system. So you go, okay, that makes sense, you would need 250K guys to do that. Then we're back to 500 guys being rather small.

I'm rambling and you know what I'm saying. At one and the same time we are told to be okay with small numbers and huge numbers. I don't mind, I'll turn off my noggin, I just think it's a shame it doesn't make sense. Best to go with the fleets were organised as projected needs demanded I think, and stop trying to apply orbat logic at all.

>>53435520
>Compared to 2 other terminator suits

FTFY

There were way more than those 3.

File: WE War Journal.png (2MB, 376x1818px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 376x1818px

>>53435410
If marines were deployed in groups of a few thousand, why was Aeonid Thiel's thesis about conservation of marinejutsu so revolutionary if they had been doing the same. And how come legions could lose tens of thousands of marines in single engagements if they deployed in groups of a few chapters strenght?
In fact, one of the characteristics that separated the IWs from most other legions was that they did obey when asked to fragment their legion into expeditionary fleets, while most others didn't.
You see >>53435383 memeing here about IWs spearheading the crusade? Iron Warriors were indeed the "Ramirez, do everything!" of the Great Crusade.
Source: the HH books.

File: 1455277930881.png (3MB, 1920x960px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1920x960px

>>53435630
As I mentioned, and as you've just shown, certain Legions preferred doing everything themselves, particularly when it came to steamrolling a planet. World Eaters, Iron Warriors, and Space Wolves come to mind. Some also had the recruitment capabilities to attach 30k marines to a fleet, throw that fleet in a general direction, and fuck everything in its way. Other Legions either didn't have that kind of recruitment strength/speed, or preferred to fight with more measured tactics.

But as >>53435549 said, scale in 30/40k is all over the damn place. In Galaxy in Flames, one marine remarks at how even a single Legion's strength is more than enough for a star system. 4 is straight overkill.

>>53432958

[Nuclear]

File: What your Warmaster tells you to be.jpg (36KB, 522x143px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 522x143px

>>53435704
>a single Legion's strength is more than enough for a star system. 4 is straight overkill.
Perhaps Horus wasn't as good a Warmaster as everybody thinks he was. He didn't even last a decade :^)

>>53435146
This was the hypothesized drawback when it was first previewed.

Cataphractii - 4++, Slow and Purposeful
Indomitus - 5++, Relentless, Can't Sweep
Tartaros - 6++, Relentless, Can Sweep

>>53432764
Well, if you read Fallen Angels you would know that it happened by way of Lion trying to completely remake Caliban into an entirely different world and Luther deciding that if that were to happen it wouldn't be Caliban anymore.

It's the exact same conflict as the Knights of Lupus had with The Order in Descent of Angels.

>>53435789
Wow, Sangy, way to come off as a whiny bitch.

>>53435937
>can you guys do this thing for me?
>are you sure? it's not really our area of expertise
>just do it
>k no problem senpai

Yeah, what a whiny bitch.

File: 1362798016100.jpg (857KB, 1600x1195px) Image search: [Google]

857KB, 1600x1195px

>>53435789
Not that surprising. For all of Horus' good ideas and plants, most were undone or warped by incompetent leadership among subordinates, outright refusal to follow orders, or cartoonishly villainous behavior. 2 allied primarchs became largely self-serving demons, 1 was batshit insane to begin with, 1 was all over the damn place in terms of behavior (AL), and the Word Bearers only value was to serve as a road block/distraction for actually competent Legions.

Hell. The Heresy was fucked right out the gate by Angron going LEEROY JENKINS on the Loyalist remnants on Istvaan.

File: 100_1288.jpg (325KB, 1332x999px) Image search: [Google]

325KB, 1332x999px

Pravian's vorax are done.
I'm just waiting on my 40k Thousand sons terminator crests to arrive and then I need to pull the rest of the bits together to get my Sehkmet assembled. In the meantime I'm thinking about doing the medicae consul next since I have so many grey knight terminator apothecary arms.

>>53436136
Done except for the ammo feeds, at least.

>>53436103
The only relatively competent and reliable legions Horus had were the DG and IW. Even then the former eventually became pawns loyal only to Nurgle and the latter would occasionally fuck off to fight Fists.

File: WhileMyPrimarchGentlyWeeps.png (319KB, 232x635px) Image search: [Google]

319KB, 232x635px

>>53435937
:'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''(

File: ANGRON JENKINS!.png (1MB, 1406x932px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1406x932px

>>53436103
Nevar forget
>>53436182
>Even then the former eventually became pawns loyal only to Nurgle and the latter would occasionally fuck off to fight Fists.
Kek what the hell are you talking about? Horus ordered the IWs to go to Phall, and the DG got transformed right before the very last battle. As in, to Horus, Mortarion's astartes had been plague marines for about 55 days until Emps erased his soul.

>>53436304
Exactly. DG was useful til almost the end, and even diseased they were still pretty useful since they didn't turn into mouthbreathing idiots. Perty was getting increasingly unstable as the Heresy went on though, and many of the Warsmiths under him weren't exactly incredibly sane either.

>>53436016
Genocide is every Legions area of expertise.

The Emperor ordered the Dark Angels to murder so many sectors that the other legions stopped trusting them and you don't see the First whining about it. Dorn and Perturabo can't agree on much, but they'd agree that when you're ordered to put a people to the sword you just fucking do it rather than whine about how it should be your brother's job because you're better than that.

>>53436182
The XXth were plenty competent and reliable, it just became apparent very early on that they were only nominally on Horus' side and were really just doing their own thing.

Imperialis Militia and Cults question
>Implying anyone plays Imperialis Militia and Cults

Are 10-man Grenadier squads in a "Survivors of the Dark Age"-based list actually viable?

I mean, it's IM&C so it's not "competitive" but is it at least "non-shit"?

>>53430214
will gw ever put out a start collecting box set just for heresy marines?
like a squad of mk IVs, a contemptor dread, and a cataphractii terminator captain

>>53437565
(You)

>>53437613
: (

>>53437025
>it just became apparent very early on that they were only nominally on Horus' side and were really just doing their own thing.

kek, I wish I could remember the novel that had Horus bitching that Alpharius was tying himself into knots with all his schemes

>>53432915
I'm bringing one in my Beastmen-oriented cults list.

>>53434588
>Hover-barges
>Larger, manta-like Cyclotrathine aerodynes
>Unleashing Triaros carriers and Krios tanks

And you all said it didn't have any basis in fluff for me to steal the Manta rules. Come on, that sounds pretty fucking cool.

>>53437565
Because at $85 for the Start Collecting box, you're already paying a little over half of what it costs for BaC and getting worse value per dollar. You're getting a Termi-captain you'll only ever need one of (and can buy dirt cheap on ebay), and the most basic dreadnought since Attack on Black Reach. Really. Just put on the big boy pants and get BaC.

>>53434731
Does anyone else think that the teeth on that drill should face the other way, so that it's tearing the shrapnel aside, as opposed to inside its front door?

>>53438213
Kek dammit. I posted that excerpt and also told you it was cool but weirds and, to be honest, didn't read HH4+
>>53438301
They don't spin outwards? Think of a chainsword, then think of a circular saw and realize chainswords spin with the teeth backwards.

If I order from the Chinamens will it end in getting anally violated with some ICE dude's nightstick?

...Asking for a friend.

>>53438301
>>53438364
Regardless of which way it spins, all that dirt and rock has to go somewhere.

>>53438420
Redhatted Trumpenstaffel will break down your door and crucify you in the street.

>>53438420
theres only one way to find out anon

>>53438457

This isn't the thread for Genestealer Cult ideas, friend.

>>53438420
>aerodynes
You can't be raped if you like it :^)

>>53438420
>ICE
>caring about some resin toys

You realize how much shit gets shipped here from China? It's not something they even look at unless you're buying huge stocks to resell as a business.

>>53438477

THEY'RE NOT TOYS MOM, STOP NAMEFAGGING ON /TG/ REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>53438420
You'll be fine. Worst comes to worst, you'll be out the cost of the minis you ordered and get someone waggling a finger at you. I ordered some from a long time seller on eBay about a week ago, said it shipped, and all their stuff got taken down by eBay a few days later. I guess I'll find out in early June if it went through or not.

File: Quiet affirmative.gif (5MB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 500x281px

>>53438477
>Trap
Where the hell have you been?

>>53438502
I've had that happen before, the items still arrived just fine.

Some of the ebay sellers have been trying different venues, one them got booted from ebay but made a google+ catalog basically and just emailed the link to that out to everyone who'd prev. bought stuff.

>>53438515
I've been busy with work desu, then all this 8th ed and primaris stuff hit so I'm basically just watching and waiting to see what happens to 30k

File: 1486258355115.jpg (1MB, 1861x1477px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1861x1477px

>>53438531

File: 20170526_093104-1.jpg (362KB, 1683x1164px) Image search: [Google]

362KB, 1683x1164px

Is the shield on the right at all recoverable?

>>53438959

It might be, but I have some bad news about your camera, annon...

>>53438959
Paint as if that rough edge was battle damage, like burned on the edges for example.

File: hades drill rear.jpg (122KB, 640x485px) Image search: [Google]

122KB, 640x485px

>>53438301
There's a conveyor belt in the middle, like a real rock drill.

File: Death Guard Hades Drill.png (227KB, 405x226px) Image search: [Google]

227KB, 405x226px

>>53439297
Also, Hades drills do fit into the category of "esoteric shit the legions had in their reserves for special occasions" - whether they nicked them from the army or the admech, they did have them (I believe this excerpt is from Istvaan)

Magnus is up on FW folks

>>53439616
That duel actually looks pretty great

Wonder how many armies Maguns will be turning up in now he's for reals

File: HomepageBanner_GuardoftheCrimsonKing.jpg (317KB, 387x650px) Image search: [Google]

317KB, 387x650px

>>53439616
His proportions look fine. People here are always riling themselves up before they have all the facts.

>>53439703
>His proportions look fine.
In your opinion. I think he looks majorly off with his pose being awkward as fuck.

>>53439703
no they don't. they looking fucking terrible.
he's massively barrel chested and missed leg day forever

hai gais, do custards use bionics? do they scar? thinking about head options

File: Constantin Valdor.png (2MB, 857x1207px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 857x1207px

>>53439742
Going by this pic Custodes seem to scar and use implants of some sort. If you're talking about bionic limbs I imagine they're important enough to have replacement parts cloned.

>>53439884
Are they just an upgrade kit? Pretty nice desu.

...And they deny that Blood Ravens are TS descendants.

File: IMG_3074.jpg (106KB, 600x620px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 600x620px

>>53439894
Forgot the pic.

And yes an upgrade kit

>>53439884
>>53439894

Just as planned?

>>53439812
Custodes will use cloned parts, but also use such high grade bionics that can't be distinguished from flesh(synth-skin on top)

>>53439902
Not really digging the helmets. I think the Scarab Occult models look way better.

File: IMG_3075.jpg (68KB, 420x322px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 420x322px

>>53439735
Say what?

File: WP_20170526_002.jpg (2MB, 2592x1456px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2592x1456px

>>53433980
Thanks man. The thing about him not being tabletop was a reference to the last thread, when I and a few others disagreed over whether or not drybrushed marines could be good tabletop quality.

I wanted him to have hazard stripes so bad, but I couldn't find a place where my (quite thick, to decrease lack of cohesion) stripes looked good and "natural". Maybe sometime in the future? His chainsword would be a decent enough spot.

>>53432764
>How can you even lose control of your own fucking homeworld.
Ask the Night Lords.

>>53440119
They didn't exactly lose control, they exterminatused the bloody thing.
Conrad wanted to rid himself of that breeding ground of messed up psychopaths that were infecting his legion.

>>53440080
Perhaps on the inner plate of the left shoulder pad below the brass?

>>53438959
I can't see what the difference is supposed to be

File: IF Breacher.png (609KB, 643x548px) Image search: [Google]

609KB, 643x548px

>>53440241
the edge is a bit rough and the detail looks a bit damaged

Also I really wonder how good those shields would look in roman red and gold/yellow (maybe white?).
Obviously they're ulltras, but they have designs so close to actual roman I think they'd look pretty cool

File: WP_20170526_003.jpg (1MB, 2592x1456px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2592x1456px

>>53440153
Good idea anon, can't believe I didn't think of that.

For your service to the Warsmith, have some WIP apothecaries lazily converted from BaC, BoP and a normal tactical squad.

>>53439616
That price is way to high.

>>53440485
10 £ more than the earlier most expensive Primarchs. Me no gusta.

File: 1495288769387.jpg (459KB, 2000x2000px) Image search: [Google]

459KB, 2000x2000px

>>53440515
You can bet Sanguinius will be that much.
at least

>>53440614
That's some heresy tho

>>53440485
Really? It's 100 cheaper than the plastic version where I am.

Pretty disappointed by both Russ and Magnus now we've seen both of them properly. I know we meme a lot about it but I truly feel that FW didnt try very hard with Inferno.

>>53440677
Just wait until Angelus. Either the need to update to 8th fucks the balance, or the need to adapt to a redone 7th fucks the balance up. Either way, I predict Angelus will be far, far worse than Inferno.

>>53436103
IT IS WELL DONE!

>>53440688
Fuck. I'll enjoy my legion either way.

>>53440688
Inferno was sloppy because they were busy with 8th and the rules were a stopgap.

Have faith, Word Bearer.

>>53436995
Sanguinius was just being pragmatic as always. He knew exactly how great is legion would be at executing a planet, but he didn't want to upset the others by being better at their jobs.

>>53435342
why would it mean that?

>>53435342
No. Basically, Hetaeron have the option to take Paragon Blades, something unique to them. Since not even Shield Captains had the option, people thought that it might have been a typo or some sort of mistake from FW:s side.

As it turns out, they CAN take PBlades, unlike captains. Captains can still take PSpears though.

>>53439616
£20 for a diorama base...
>£20 for a diorama base.

>>53441723
to be fair, the base is better than whats sitting on it

>>53440080
Don't be salty over people telling your what they thought of your models my man and go fishing for reinforcement, have a little respect for yourself. Not even one of those guys but your Warsmith and that Dread are better than the marine you posted that drew the comments, that marine was not anything to complement or ask about and they weren't being unreasonable dicking on it when you were trying to push it as tabletop. If drybrushing is your thing that's great, own it and have more confidence in yourself and don't try and seek our approval like it matters.
You can do it anon be the best you can be!

>>53440658
I'm in the US and it's only $35 cheaper than the plastic.

>>53442054
Being down under is suffering.

Man I'm glad that Horus is still the best looking Primarch.

>Sons of Horus supremacy
>suck it other legions

File: New40kPrimarisCaptainAgainFull.jpg (94KB, 1200x606px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 1200x606px

Rules for a numarine captain. I post it here because there are a couple of things we might be able to glean from it.

First off, the only difference between a primaris and a normal marine is +1 W and A. If that carries into the characters as well, then space marine captains will be hitting on 2+, and presumably be getting 4-5 W (the extra point of toughness is from his armour).

The 'Rites of Battle' special ability gives us a sense of the kind of buffs that characters might bring.

Finally, and perhaps most interestingly, it looks like master crafted means that a weapon does 1 extra damage. Looks like eveyone can get a blade of perdition now.

>>53442302
Don't worry, Sanguinius will eclipse him also.

>>53442325
Perhaps but I'll be long dead before he's released.

>>53442425
Wow anon, didn't know you wouldn't last the rest of year.

Sorry.

>>53442320
Reallllllly wish they would've spelled out And They Shall Know No Fear on the datasheet. I mean, isn't that the whole point of them?

Out of curiosity, how many people plan on bolting on their legion rules to 8th ed through houserules? My group is planning on doing this, and since I play Sons of Horus it looks like my stuff should line up fairly easily. I'm pretty hyped.

>>53432444
Love the dude with his shield planted on the ground, he looks boss.

>>53432444
>Assembled three Haeteroi myself, now that the paragon blade/spear issue is finally clarified.
Source? When was it clarified?

>>53442320
>Master crafted power sword
Makes me wonder how the Paragon Blade will transfer over

>>53442597
"6s to wound cause mortal wounds" most likely.

>>53440147
Could have just asked for a new recruiting world

File: DEATH HAD COME.png (2MB, 922x1186px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 922x1186px

>>53439316
HH1 :^)
>>53439703
He looks like shit, and his legs are still too short. Fucking TS defense force. Nice hand, though.
>>53440028
That's double shit. Even femarines wouldn't have that much chest. So much he could fly by flapping his arms.

>>53442982
well yes, that would have been the reasonable thing to do.
Conrad however, was far from reasonable.

File: 1474172007157.png (545KB, 482x712px) Image search: [Google]

545KB, 482x712px

>>53442320
>More wounds than ANGRON
>Looks like eveyone can get a blade of perdition now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4

mechanicum/militia player, BaC box in the mail, dubs decides the legion of my new astartes detachment

>>53443237
Nothing. You return it to FW.

>>53443237
Word Bearers, get some cultist support on the ground.

File: For_what_purpose.jpg (25KB, 323x454px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 323x454px

>>53443269
>mfw i bought it from my LGS for £65

Why return it to FW, anon?

>>53443296
I wanted to get dubs and utterly screw with you.
Srsly, what do you want of the marine force you just bought? You can't have absolutely no bias and expect absolutely nothing from them.

>>53443270
Seconded

File: BLPROCESSED-Unabridged-Shattered-Legions-MP3.jpg (36KB, 300x379px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 300x379px

anyone dumped Shattered Legions mp3 yet?

>>53443319
I like MkIV armour and Cataphractii terminators and I want some new dudes to paint. If I get some objective-securing bodies on the table that won't get swept off like my militia, that's a plus. If it helps, I will probably run them as vet squads like every other newfag to get access to special weapons.

I enjoy, in no particular order, Iron Hands, Death Guard, Imperial Fists, Night Lords, Dark Angels, World Eaters, Word Bearers and Sons of Horus. You can appreciate I'm having a hard time settling on one Legion in particular.

>>53443270
>>53443378

Thirded, your existing armies look and work well with them and all their unique models look sweet.

>>53443388
Either IF, IH or SoH. I think at least two of those are Sworn hommies to your Mechanicum.

File: Magnus the leg.png (653KB, 1326x588px) Image search: [Google]

653KB, 1326x588px

Oooooh so it really was perspective. Why did FW post such shitty angle as the promotional pic? The Magnus mini in Inferno does look good, but I always thought it was an unreleased alternate mini like Fulgrim with his banner.

>>53443503
Never got around to reading the books, was Magnus the Red holding back at Prospero? Seems like if he wanted Russ dead he could have just tossed a warp-vortex bomb at him and called it game right there, not much anyone can do against a psyker THAT strong.

I'm no fan of OP Primarchs killing everything, but he's kinda broken as hell lorewise.

(Caption is directing me to Albion. Yes, I know I've got a match against DG tomorrow, but thanks for the reminder.)

>>53443572
He was at first, because he felt bad about what he'd done and figured that he and his legion deserved to be punished. His legion fought without him, and finally he decided to come out and resist.

>>53443503
>Wow that model looks shit
>No no wait go stand over there
>Oh yeah its alright I guess

Its shit mate. If I was a TSons player I'd just use the GW model. Magnus was a Daemon for the entire real heresy anyway.

>>53443572
You must realize they needed a tragic story, so they tried to make it fit. To me, Magnus was fucking up Russ until he tripped on him and broke his back.
>>53443697
>Magnus was a Daemon for the entire real heresy anyway.
They're changing so much stuff I no longer know anymore, like the answer to "when did you guys become blue?"
But being TSs, I don't give a shit.
My point is, I like his cape and the fact him having squatmarch legs was an optical illusion

>>53443503
>0 nipple horns
Send it back. Also that old Blanche art had Magnus swole as fuck. Theres absolutely no reason why this Magnus couldnt have full armour on.

File: MagnustheRedCover.jpg (192KB, 792x1199px) Image search: [Google]

192KB, 792x1199px

>>53443951
I wanted the nipple horns, but FW will never deliver them
What are you going to do?
No, really. How can it be fixed, if not putting your hand to it.
Do you think people weren't angry at Mortarion's lack of a rebreather?
Magnus usually had his non-metal arms uncovered, though. Witch fashion, you see.
FW now has shitty rules, shitty models, books riddler with mistakes and expensive stuff
Why do we like it, again?
Can't find the Blanche pic in my folder, but I like this Magnus too. What I feel the 30k mini should look like.

>>53443951
Also, FW sells you rocks for 20 pounds.
Are they finally a full blown meme company or what? Artisanal asparagus water or something?

>>53441900
Thanks, I appreciate what you said - though the DAngel wasn't anything close to tabletop. Like I said, he was very much WIP - I've painted his robes blue since then and I didn't drybrush them. I'm not fishing for reinforcement, I just legit like talking about models and lists and discussing whether or not they work and what might be improved etc, even if things get a bit heated sometimes.

It's just Power Armour that I think looks great with drybrushing, with our without wash. I think the "chalky" look makes them look... worn, faded, sun damaged, you know?

As for being salty... There is a reason I named my guy Salty Jago!

>>53442466
I might, depending on how the local meta turns out. I defo think my IW list >>53430657 will benefit from the new rules for shooting and lascannons and, to a lesser extent, the changes to melee. What's your SoH list?

>>53443572
Theoretically yes he was holding back. Magnus is a master of all the different cults on Prospero and one of them can can boil an enemy's blood at will (Pavoni cult I think). He didn't because he believed he deserved punishment for breaking the Goldnen Throne. After he saw what Russ was doing, destroying the planet and slaughtering civilian and astartes alike, he decided to get involved.

File: IW Rhino.png (823KB, 901x612px) Image search: [Google]

823KB, 901x612px

>>53444267
>to a lesser extent, the changes to melee.
Now that charging out of a Rhino will be a thing, Despoilers become viable.
And that means IW marines in the Hammer of Olympia will be able to charge after rapid firing out of an extra armoured Rhino.
Probably won't go first since it's a disordered charge, though.

>>53444109
>but FW will never deliver them
Why not is my question? Just google Magnus the Red. Almost every GW image has him there with huge fuck off nipple horns. It's like Sangy without his wings. Feels bad man.

>Magnus usually had his non-metal arms uncovered, though
Yes because he was shown or described as huge. Thats not the vibe I get from the FW model at all. I cant wait till I see a proper comparison with him height wise with other Primarchs.

>>53444146
Gotta make it cost an extra 10 euro somehow.

File: Bitter.png (157KB, 305x479px) Image search: [Google]

157KB, 305x479px

>>53444XXX
We IVth thread now

>>53444341
Idk why, though. If I were him, I'd be clad head to toe in hermetic magic adamantium with truesilver and inscribed runes or something. Like SW runic armour + GK Aegis plate ^2
Not wearing a fucking metal undershirt.
As for why not, I don't know, anon.
Their fucking modelers fucking felt like it, and that's wrong.
Modelers must abide to whatever the fluff and the rulebook say, not the other way around!

>>53443237
Melee-oriented Iron Warriors. Thematically it fits, what with them using militia as cannon fodder and having close ties with the Mechanicum. The paintjob looks good and is easy get to a tabletop standard and they have good Heavy Support options to support your melee units/free up other forces to focus on stuff other than tanks/etc. BS 5 Tankhunting Lascannons? BS 5 tankhunting flakk missiles for the same cost as a normal HQS-squad with that loadout? The answer is yesh.

>>53443388
Anon who recommended IW here, if you want Veterans I'd actually recommend IF. That said, Cataphractii can be converted to Siege Tyrants

File: Thousand Sons old.jpg (214KB, 1962x472px) Image search: [Google]

214KB, 1962x472px

>>53443759
>They're changing so much stuff I no longer know anymore, like the answer to "when did you guys become blue?"

Space Marine (1st ed. Epic, 1988) has them at Isstvan III, and marines from those 5 legions took the Eisenstein. The painting section says to paint them red.

The Realms of Chaos books (1990) lay down the basics: Magnus was loyal but into proscribed magics, tried to warn the Emperor about Horus, Emps got mad, sent Russ to devastate Prospero, and Magnus found himself compelled to join the Warmaster. No color info that I know of (haven't read them 100%, though).

Renegades (Epic 2nd ed., the book with xenos and Chaos forces, 1992) is probably where they were first painted blue... sort of. The Thousand Sons are only briefly mentioned, though Magnus gets a coouple of paragraphs repeating the above fluff. This book focused on daemons, and in the color section it says that Daemons of Tzeench are painted in bright yellows and blues. I'm not sure the few marines shown are actually blue, more like a garish mix of yellow, blue, red (tabards and cloak linings), and even green. They seem to have decided that the cult legions adopted their patron gods' colors.

Codex: Chaos (2nd ed., 1996) basically repeats the story and adds details about the Rubric of Ahriman and his cabal getting banished. This is where the dark blue + gold scheme was cemented, without explanation.

Index Astartes (2002) added a ton of detail, like how the Space Wolves wrote that they caught the TSons by surprise on Prospero, but how improbable that must be given their psychic powers (already hinting that Magnus helped the Space Wolves approach unnoticed). This account then has the Thousand Sons fighting on the traitor side at Isstvan V with Daemon Prince Magnus there.

>>53445156
You know that previous lore can easily be invalidated by whatever is written afterwards. BL and FW have the fluff entirely in their clutches, and whatever they say will go.
If they had said the DG was turned into plague marines right after Istvaan V instead of right before Terra, that would be the new truth.
An ugly truth that tramples on anything we knew before it, but the new official one nevertheless.
t. unwilling Laurie, I guess :/

>>53445256
I'm fine with that. I was going through the old fluff to see when red gave way to blue (not well defined at all) and to see how much the Prospero fluff had changed. Not much, as it turns out!

>>53445323
When did the lore add Magnus ruining the webway project?

>>53440515
He's a big guy.

Are there any Mechanicum factions based around biological weaponry? Was reading about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vegetarian
and it seems like something they'd do. Waiting a few decades doesn't really matter to them even when they're not immune to disease, and that's a compliant planet right there. They're all dead, but whatever, we have boops.

>>53443572
Primarch have adamantium will.

>>53445435
And if I remember correctly Magnus was holding off the entire remaining army by himself at the same time.

File: 99020187278_GuardoftheCrimsonKing01.jpg (71KB, 600x620px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 600x620px

I'm interested in the forgeworld bundle for Magnus and the TS stuff, but is it worth it?

I have no idea if volkite culverns are good on dreads and same for non mortis auto cannons. Also I'm not sure if any of the psychic castellax variant is worth anything

>>53445396
An armed branch of the Biologis? Or a Forge World given over to them??

Instead of purely mech stuff you could give them fleshy alterations instead

>>53445518
Theres no savings involved there so just buy what you want.

File: Reductor.png (733KB, 727x532px) Image search: [Google]

733KB, 727x532px

>>53445396
They're like Chaos Marine Apothecaires
"""They're in the fluff"""
Also, do you consider cancer guns and cyber Tyrannosarx as biological weapons?

File: Tyranid weaponry.jpg (137KB, 1123x709px) Image search: [Google]

137KB, 1123x709px

>>53445545
That sounds fun. Now I'm imagining a squad of Secutarii armed with Tyranid guns but with a couple cybernetic parts still on them, the reverse of the Infested guns in Warframe. Problem would be finding one that didn't make them look like the Mechanicus Fetish Squad.

I can totally see a Malagra archmagos swinging around a Bonesword, though.

>>53445645
>cyber Tyrannosarx
WANT. Cancer guns not so much, I'd file that under Physics, but possibly Phosphex.

>>53443572
Magnus was basically holding off the Wolves so the Sons could fall back into the temple. He also had to deal with Freki and Greki (or whatever their names are) and for some reason Russ could reflect psychic powers.

>>53432791
That serf tho.

>>53445361
I think there are older hints of the Golden Throne being a webway portal, but it was first clearly stated in the art books that make up Collected Visions (2007) by Alan Merrett, who was at GW back during the days of Old Fluff. (Visions of Heresy retconned some details in Collected Visions, in case anyone here was thinking of buying it.)

A Thousand Sons came a few years later and added the fact that Emperor may have found the portal in the Himalayas and then built the palace (and all his grand plans) around it.

File: Belicosa Potentis Omnissiah.png (4MB, 2620x1680px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 2620x1680px

>>53445723
>Lacryaemarta
>Cyber-hybrid carnivora
Dinosaurtomata is go.

>>53445786
Thanks mang.

>>53445723
You could use Catachan minis to represent large numbers of vatgrown, genetically engineered examples of male perfection

>>53445844
Catachans look awful though.

>>53445786
>(Visions of Heresy retconned some details in Collected Visions, in case anyone here was thinking of buying it.)

Didn't it also replace some of the art and such? It's basically a Star Wars Special Edition version of the original. When I found out about it, I scoured the internet for the original Collected Visions.

>>53445887
I'm sorry your flawed eyes can't perceive their perfection. It must be hard on you, to live your life with so little taste.

And so on.

Jokes aside, yeah, they're pretty terrible. Mostly I was thinking about their muscled arms/torsos, which seemed kind of fitting for the Biologis, I guess.

>>53445992
>Mostly I was thinking about their muscled arms/torsos
Gaaaaaaaay.

File: 1494620345336.jpg (87KB, 961x1024px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 961x1024px

>>53446072

File: pure-secks.jpg (59KB, 374x567px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 374x567px

>>53445844
>catachan models
>cadian heads
>3rd party lasguns
>paint blue

About time for a new thread. Any takers? Alternatively, post instructions and I'll do it.

>>53446535
This isn't even autosaging yet. Give it a moment, man.

>>53446108
Fuck yes

>>53444109
>Do you think people weren't angry at Mortarion's lack of a rebreather?
What the fuck was up with that? It's one of his defining features. Does FW even care? If I was a DG player I'd pissed.
>but muh face
There's absolutely no reason why the Primarch figures shouldn't come with alternate helmeted heads for the price we are paying. Even the Eidolon mini has one.

File: IIIrd Crest.jpg (182KB, 719x810px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 719x810px

>>53446535
I'm here, I'll get it when it's ready.

>>53443384
this, anyone?

File: this is how he smiles.png (976KB, 644x730px) Image search: [Google]

976KB, 644x730px

>>53446960
>If I was a DG player I'd pissed.
>There's absolutely no reason why the Primarch figures shouldn't come with alternate helmeted heads for the price we are paying. Even the Eidolon mini has one.
And Typhus has one too. What can I tell you, anon. I'm MAD.

>>53446960
>>53447042
Don't forget that we know that, for example. Russ had a helmet and even have a model for it (Ulrik has it), but FW couldn't make a head swap for the model.

But lets make another set of Knight heads.

>>53447038
I can understand being unwilling to pay full price for a lot of these minis, but audiobooks? C'mon...

File: WP_20170526_004.jpg (1MB, 2592x1456px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2592x1456px

>>53446966
But then it'll be all purple and white and pimped out, as opposed to functional and surrounded by trenches and barbed wire.

I'd rather take on another Hrud migration than suffer through that hell.

>>53447153
I've already read or heard half of the stories in that HH book, so buying it seems wasteful.

>>53447125
Almost every Primarch is described as wearing one at some point.
>Jaghatai won't have his dragon helmet
Hurts a little desu senpai

File: 1494766727200.jpg (18KB, 292x300px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 292x300px

>>53447219
A bunch of threads ago someone posted it. Considering that a lot of the recent threads haven't linked to the predecessor, you're doomed. Give in to entropy and fade, as all life must.

File: 1488640343133.jpg (60KB, 577x619px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 577x619px

>>53447272
Someone actually posted it? Fuck, what a shame if I can't find it. I could use something to cheer me up, work was awful today.

>>53447272
>search shattered legions in 4plebs to try to find it for him because I'm bored
>there are 9 instances of his begging on the first page alone

File: 1494812137769.jpg (46KB, 309x323px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 309x323px

>>53447272
>Tfw we started the year with numbered threads and now we're lucky to get sequential summaries
HELLO DARKNESS
MY OLD FRIEND

File: a_clash_of_gold_and_iron_by_nalro.jpg (109KB, 900x741px) Image search: [Google]

109KB, 900x741px

>>53447330
Feel free to share. You don't get this salty without practice, after all.

>>53447348
Mede me lel, so thanks.

>>53447362
Bitterness is a choice. A choice I made. And, a choice we have in common. I may be a mere babe with less than a month of experience 'neath my belt, but the threads I started on were quite good with the summaries, I think I went 10-20 something threads back before someone fucked up

File: Thunder_Warrior.jpg (230KB, 913x947px) Image search: [Google]

230KB, 913x947px

A while ago someone posted a bunch of MK II marines with thunder warrior heads. I think these guys look way cooler, and if a kit is ever released with one or two of these heads I'll just cast more of them. Alternatively, I'll use MK VII heads, they look fairly similar

>>53447417
The thing is, if you want a good thread you gotta do it yourself, but then you get trapped in threadmaking.
>Cue MSGVposting Breadanon day never came

>>53447454
Why not use Stormcast as a base? They're
>bigger than marines
>have unpowered armour with that scale tabard
>lightning bolts and storm imagery already sculpted

>>53447523
The legs are too Sanguinius-y compared to normal power armour, they look way to refined. Also, I'm completely worthless at EC poncery like sculpting.

File: 14290004_10154005577345892_7231234819643950582_o.jpg (79KB, 942x960px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 942x960px

>>53447454
The sigmar bloodsworn or whatever have potential.

>>53447564
Certainly, but I suck at sculpting and I don't want to buy two or three kits, cut them apart and glue them together for a single squad - I'm way to cheap for that.