/wmhg/ - Warmachine and Hordes General

Are Character Colossal or Gargantuan likely to ever be a thing?

What are your thoughts on the changes to scenario scoring in SR2017?
Somehow I seemed to have missed all the discussion about it. To me it seems like it skews the game towards assassination victory or attrition based play

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Is the age of Infantrymachine over?

With the way the meta is now and the changes made to the game, is there any point in taking things like Cataphract Incindari or the Assault Kommandos?

>>53361600
Most of the SR2017 scenarios are dead as a doornail.

That said, Standoff is probably my favorite scenario that's ever been in Steamroller.

"Race to 5" doesn't work anymore, which I think is a good thing, but it's replaced by "build lead and stall", which definitely isn't great.

Assassination is more prevalent, but most games seem to go hard attrition for the first few rounds then turtling.

If more scenarios were live, I'd really like it. As it is, I'm left with hoping to roll Standoff.

Also, most terrain placement methods encouraging LOS-blocking terrain in the middle of the board is great.

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>>53361293
Post C U T E Kaelyssa lists

>>53361715
>"Race to 5" doesn't work anymore, which I think is a good thing, but it's replaced by "build lead and stall", which definitely isn't great.
This is what I'm mostly concerned about. I've had some games where the scenario points just ticked up and I could have pulled off a scenario victory if I had then cleared a zone/flag, which made the scenario feel relevant (I haven't played much against scenario oriented lists).
With SR2017 it looks like I have to go all-in on the scenario to even remotely have a chance of using it

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>>53361710
It's somewhat coming back. Iron Fang Pikemen are brutal with the new theme and CID Banez and Grymkin are looking good.

Assault Kommandos are okay against Infantry spam (Cephalyx for example) and still okay against certain Cryx/Menoth lists, but outside of that, they are pretty bad. Hope is on the horizon though, because there was a leak for AK unit attachments.

>>53361888
In my dozenish SR2017 games, scenario has been in play every game in Standoff, and basically nowhere else. I have not rolled Spread the Net, but it might be in play as well with 5 potential scoring opportunities, although I'm not a huge fan of SR17 flags.

Breakdown and Pit II are almost in play. Recon II and Outlast are terrible.

Standoff I love, though.

I'd take SR17 over SR16 just on terrain placement alone; having more terrain on the board and *especially* usually having a LOS-blocker in the center of the board makes the game better. But it needs more scoring density in most maps.

>>53361710
The age of infantrymachine is gone. Incindiarii at present are a completely useless unit, trust me I've tried. Even if your opponent has lots of infantry, it generally won't struggle to kill the Incindiarii next turn owing to how they went from 12/15 8 boxes to 11/15 5 boxes. Then PP "buffed" them by increasing the POW of guns that were only ever intended to drop continuous fire on things. Ever killed a Dawnguard Sentinel with your splash damage with a damage roll that wouldn't have killed it pre-errata? I have. It lost me a LOT of points and the game. Haven't fielded them since. Don't regret it at all.

We're now in the age of theme lists. A faction gets a new broken theme list, and suddenly it's all over the competitive scene like a rash. It could be heavies, it could be infantry. There is no rhyme or reason to the metagame now, it's just a crap shoot as to what's overpowered at the moment. Oracles of Annihilation, Heavy Metal, Ghost Fleet, Winter Guard Kommand. There is no metagame, only overpowered theme lists. Your faction doesn't have a good theme list? Sorry you're not part of the "metagame".

What's a better ADR replacement for Cetrati in Zaadesh2; Karn or Despoiler?

>>53362134

Well, what Skorne infantry are worth taking then?

>>53362134
Uh, no. The Dirty Thirty is coming back as soon as Cryx changes in CID go official.

>>53362268
Ferox are great.

Nihilators, Swordsmen, and Cetrati are playable with support.

Karax are borderline.

>>53362268
>Arcuarii
Garbage
>Cetrati
Good with a few certain casters. Xerxis1 and Zaadesh2 are the best
>Incindiarii
Garbage
>Immortals
Very strong in multiples with Zaal1
>Legends of Halaak
Very strong with anyone who can help keep them alive to get work done
>Nihilators
I'm convinced they're an excellent unit choice with Mordikaar
>Handlers
Still go in every list
>Bloodrunners
Niche jamming unit, no real reason to be fielded
>Ferox
Excellent unit when supported
>Karax
Excellent tarpit
>Keltarii
Still too niche
>Swordsmen
Minifeat weaponmaster on a cheap unit is fantastic, they just need support to get across the table
>Tyrant Commander
Not really worth the points. Reveille is much worse now that you don't slam Nihilators into every list
>Catapult Crew
Still nothing special
>Flayer Cannon
Still nothing special
>Reivers
Fine unit, one of the best UAs in the game, and Skorne's only theme list at present is a gunline one
>Slingers
Pretty shit

So many of Skorne's things are so situational (Bloodrunners, Keltarii, Krea, Agonizer, Soulward) that I'm convinced at present that the faction is meant to be played under ADR. Either that or PP thinks Skorne should be playing list chicken every round. Agonizers in the right place at the right time win games, but those games are not games against gunlines. ADR lets you swap him and a Gobber Chef for your Krea, once again a model that wins games when it's there at the right time.

>>53362419
Coincidentally at the same time everyone is planning on using the new Bane theme list.

>>53362440
>>53362419

I think it's worth pointing out that you can count all of the infantry that are worth taking without explicit caster support on one hand, and most of them require support packages of their own.

There's lots of *playable* infantry, unlike a lot of jacks/beasts, almost all of that playable infantry requires a lot of help to be worth it on the table.

>>53362440
Cetrati are garbage with Xerxis1. I've completely replaced them and never looked back. You go into the game praying for tough streaks otherwise you lose an expensive unit that doesn't achieve shit all game.

Nihilators might be good if Mordikaar ever stopped sucking giant dicks in Mk3.

Catapults are ok as free points with certain casters in tier, the CID changes to the SA's actually make them a useful option. They hide behind the SA's and help them deal with infantry jam, which is what they suck against. Flayer Cannons still suck dicks though.

Slingers exist for Rasheth and that's about it. AD Arcnodes that are relatively cheap. He likes a min unit of them and every now and then their ammo types come into play.

>>53362775

What about the solos?

I remember the Pain Giver Master Tormentor, Extoller Soulward and Void Spirit all being good or decent.

>>53362803
Extoller is still as usual, either you really needed it for the matchup or you don't give a shit about him

Void Spirits are fucking shit with everything except Mordikaar, similar situations for the AG's and Zaal.

Master Tormentor is better than he used to be, but it's a hard ask to find room for him or any combat solo that doesn't hit like a fucking freight train when Skorne has so much fucking support bloat because PP balances them around a bunch of situational support because they're fucking retards.

>>53362775
>Cetrati are garbage with Xerxis1. I've completely replaced them and never looked back. You go into the game praying for tough streaks otherwise you lose an expensive unit that doesn't achieve shit all game.
15/24 against charging infantry is not garbage. You don't pray for tough, it's just a nice thing they have. Do you even know just how huge their buffs were in the errata? -2PC, +Tough, +Set Defense. These guys with buffs and an Agonizer can hold off fucking WAVES of infantry man.
>Nihilators might be good if Mordikaar ever stopped sucking giant dicks in Mk3.
Mordikaar is fine so long as your opponent's list complies. He can't beat heavies, and has a strong assassination game. Ferox being strong works out well for Revive, but fuck man I'd love if he had SOME kind of buff. Hollow doesn't really count. D&C0 + ADR are the only way he can be played semi-competitively. The real problem with Nihilators is they're a solution to a problem that doesn't exist right now; masses of melee infantry.
>Catapults are ok as free points with certain casters in tier, the CID changes to the SA's actually make them a useful option. They hide behind the SA's and help them deal with infantry jam, which is what they suck against. Flayer Cannons still suck dicks though.
Yeah they're great when you don't have to pay points for them. See: they're shit.
>Slingers exist for Rasheth and that's about it. AD Arcnodes that are relatively cheap. He likes a min unit of them and every now and then their ammo types come into play.
Slingers are yet another unit that makes me think Skorne is the ADR faction. Even though their base POW and RAT are laughable, the extra dice against non-Menoth warmachine factions will actually get damage in. Flare on a low RAT model is a piss take though. Having a min unit in your Specialists to bring in and scare Wall of Steel/Shield Wall infantry into spreading isn't the worst thing though.

So what's good in Skorne then?

>>53362902
>Good tier
Makeda1
Makeda2
Zaadesh2
Rasheth
Xerxis1

>LGS tier
Zaal1
Morghoul2
Hexeris1
Mordikaar
Makeda3
Morghoul1

>Shit tier
Naaresh
Zaal2
Hexeris2
Xekaar
Morghoul3
Xerxis2

>>53362900

>15/24 against charging infantry is not garbage. You don't pray for tough, it's just a nice thing they have. Do you even know just how huge their buffs were in the errata? -2PC, +Tough, +Set Defense. These guys with buffs and an Agonizer can hold off fucking WAVES of infantry man.

Pretending that infantry still get used. Kek. They're so fucking terrible right now people are taking CID SA and using it to replace them.

>Yeah they're great when you don't have to pay points for them. See: they're shit.

They do a job you need them to do in tier and they're really your only option. What you were going to pick, another extoller?

>>53362256
Despoiler.

>>53362134
>We're now in the age of theme lists.
Yes and no.

There has been only 1 theme list to elevate what people where not taking already and made people take it (And I think the list just brought it to peoples attention).

In the popular theme lists, nothing in them was something that nobody took or spammed before.

>>53363052
No need to put on the Jamaican accent.

>>53362980

>They're so fucking terrible right now people are taking CID SA and using it to replace them.

I kind of want to know what building around a Siege Animantarax would be like.

I was thinking Rasheth and a Titan herd, but I'm not sure, nor am I sure that building around a Battle Engine is worth it.

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>>53362624
For the Retribution of Scyrah, what myrmidons are worth taking, and in what numbers?

I heard Gryphons are amazing.

>>53362980
>Pretending that infantry still get used. Kek.
>what is Legion of Steel
>what is Ghostfleet
>what are Steelheads

>>53363544
one of these things is not like the other

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> tfw I go to a game store where they are selling their WarmaHordes inventory for 55% off because nobody buys it.
> tfw I don't buy any of it because Trollbloods are my main and I have no faith in PP to make them better even when they've been average at best for over a decade.

I want them to be fun/good, but they just aren't. I have spent so much money already. I just can't justify buying more. Even at 55% off.

>>53362937
>Naaresh
>Hexy2
>Xerxis2
>The locks I picked up to start this army
>Shit Tier
Welp...

>>53363460
Griffons are still good, but not as amazing spammed with Vyros2 as you might initially think, as the limit on Synergy to +3/+3 caps them on the top end. It's definitely playable, but it's not in the same league as Amon or Harkevitch jackspamming.

Discordia is awesome.

All of the heavies except the Daemon have some sort of place; if you're looking to spam a heavy, multiple Hydra lists are freshly hot. With infantry (at least Cryx infantry) coming back, I'm painting up multiple Manticores to deal with them.

Ret has the best jack marshal game, with being able to give Righteous Vengance or d3 force field regen in addition to the standard marshal bonuses, *and* having the cheapest Focus economy via Arcanists.

>>53363619
Naaresh and Xerxis2 are not shit tier, regardless of what the other guy said.

>>53362937
>Xerxis2
>Shit

If you think he's bad you have no idea how to play him.

>>53363236
Zaadesh2. Put Inviolable Resolve on him and watch how he's goddamn unapproachable by anything less than DEF 13.

>>53363612
You don't need to buy more stuff. But I have faith in PP. Cryx has sure received pretty great buffs overall for a large core of their faction identity, expanding towards even stuff that PP wasn't planning on fixing up.

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>>53361293

Can someone critique my Exemplar Interdiction theme list? Pic related.

The biggest problem I see with it is that I won't be able to make much use of Reznik's feat without hurting my own guys as well, but the idea is to get Death March on the Knights Exemplar. One gets destroyed, the rest of the unit gets +2 mat and vengeance. If they're fighting infantry, they're basically getting 3 attacks each in one turn (vengeance attack, normal combat attack, cleave).

Kreoss 2's feat would be a lot more friendly to the troops, and sacrosanct is a pretty sweet upkeep spell, but he doesn't seem to have a whole lot else going for him.

Kreoss 3's gonna do a lot more for the Exemplar Vengers, and he's got a lot more upkeep spells but his feat is just a tad lackluster.

What do you guys think?

>>53364051
Reznik 2's main sparkly is Spellpiercer.

The theme list grants blessed weapons to warjacks.

It's not a great match due to the redundancy.

While the theme benefit overlaps a lot with Kreoss3's feat, Purification is perfectly fine as a feat, and free casting on top of that doesn't suck. He also has one of the best spell lists in faction.

I'd look at High Reclaimer as well because even before the theme he liked to run Exemplars, and your general list build plays into HR's strengths pretty well.

The Judicator is honestly not very good. You will most likely do betting taking Tristan with two Redeemers and then something else to fill out your jack points (a second Reckoner isn't bad, Templars are a good choice for the slot, too).

>>53363920

What synergies does Zaadesh have with the rest of the Skorne army?

>>53364223
>>53364223
He can deliver our slow beasts with cloudwall, makes Archidons disgusting with Flying Counterchargers, and his fear allows Titans to one round colossals with paingivers. He's most comparable to a blend of Karchev and Haley 1

>>53364349

>his fear allows Titans to one round colossals with paingivers.

Couldn't Titans already do that? A Bronzeback or Gladiator doing that wasn't uncommon in MK2 from what I've seen.

>>53364364
An enraged Bronzeback can't even kill a Cryx colossal.

>>53363847
How do you play Naaresh, beast heavy?

>>53364477
An Enraged Bronzeback (With a Free Charge) has like a 52% chance of one rounding a Sepulcher.

>>53364517
47.6%, actually.

>>53364663
Well shit, no, that's ignoring Grab and Smash; with that it's around 73%.

>>53364481
Naaresh has a lot of merit as a counter to jack spam and beast spam lists, because his has the armor cracking to deal with them and Lamentations makes many of those casters very sad.

Defensively, the feat allows you to survive an alpha from most of those lists, while also giving you the armor cracking to deal with them as situation dictates.

Naaresh is also incredibly mobile, allowing him to exploit mistakes those lists often make in narrow positioning.

>>53364716
Whatever. The point is whiners wanna whine.

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Curious, but has fortress construction changed in Immoren at all since the last conflict?

With things like the Khadoran Empire's Marauder, the Circle of Oroboros's Wold Guardian (though I suppose this one isn't exactly new), the Skorne Empire's Siege Animantarax and Colossals-Gargantuans in general, are fortresses going to be built to withstand an onslaught from such engines or creatures of war?

Is there even any defense against any of that other than trying to neutralize it before it nears range of a fortress wall?

>Start to get into the game, followed it for years but never got much farther than picking up a model here and there
>Find a local store to play at
>Small but healthy player base
>Overhear one of the players talking about battle engines
>Learn the group has a house rule to inform your opponent beforehand if you are going to use a epic caster, battle engine, or gargossal
What have I gotten myself into?

>>53365175

Since when did Battle Engines ever need a warning?

>>53365168
Well there were even more Titanic Colossals before them, so I assume they already are.

>>53365235
All I know is its their group's rule.

>>53364945
72.9% it looks like.

But yeah, whiners gon' whine.

>>53364477

What's the most damage a Gladiator can do to something then?

And is it even still useful in MK3?

>>53365175
People that think that their perception of what is broken is the law and refuse to learn to deal with new tech. Welcome to Stagnation.

>>53365565
It's the only model to get nerfed in the Skorne errata because it was so point efficient.

As it stands, it's still arguably one of the best beasts in the game.

>>53365643

Where do people stand on character beasts like Molik Karn?

>>53365574
To be fair, its a few that have admitted to not playing since MKI and some of their store regulars they roped into starting since the store moved to a new location with enough floor room to actually play. It may be an attitude that is dropped after the group adapts to the new edition. I hope so, would be annoying otherwise.

>>53365688
Take him with Xerxis2. You now have a P+S 18 WM that threatens 15" with free charges.

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>>53366028

What about Chiron here?

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Can anyone good with photoshop do a color test for me? I want to try and translate the colorscheme on the left to a Retribution army, but I want to see if it will work across both infantry and Myrmidons.

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>>53366231
This image would work well for the color test btw

>>53366092
>>53365688
Karn's much less universally useful than he was in Mk2, but certain casters still very much enjoy him. His assassination threat under Makeda1 is real, for example.

Morgul2 often gets a lot of use out of him as well, given his constant need to move around.

Chiron is much less known, because he's so new. He's very expensive and isn't obviously good, but he has a lot of tools and benefits under the trunk, so to speak. His gun is great, his defensive abilities are a lot better than people give him credit, and his ability to manage fury is far more powerful than one would expect. The fact that he counts as a Drake for Kreas is also very nice.

>>53362440

>Niche jamming unit, no real reason to be fielded

I heard Mordikaar had some odd but effective synergy with Bloodrunners.

>>53365743
If they played MKI then I'm not sure what the hell theyre bitching about. The entire game was broken as fuck back then.

>>53366581
Hence the stipulation on epic casters.

>>53366469
Chiron feels like he's missing something from the army to make him really stand out. I'd personally like to see some new basilisk beast to really make him shine. Make a unit of basilisk pups or something.

>>53366092
He looks derpy as fuck, that's what. Lazy damn sculpt, looks like a regular basilisk.

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From the most recent insider.

What 'jack is in this picture? It looks Khadoran in style, but it doesn't look like any of the current lineup of Khador warjacks.

>>53366849
Its the Khadoran Colossal missing its head and extremities.

>>53366701
He's just an all game piece.

Good gun, still good in melee, good defensive tech, good fury management tech, has extra tech against Hordes.

No one good, obvious reason to take him, but a lot of little reasons.

I'm personally running him with Hexy1, and enjoying him in there. He's got the tech to deal with a lot of infantry, and Parasite means he hits way harder than one would expect.

>>53362937

>Shit Tier
>Zaal2
>Xerxis2

>and hell, Morghoul3 just came out

Oh /tg/, why can't you be good at games?

>>53363619

Anon, it's the general. The more certain an anon sounds, the less authoritative the statement.

>>53362937
So what's wrong with Morghoul3?

Who are the best warcasters/warlocks in the game?
If you're feeling more ambitious, how about per faction?

>>53367653
Harkevch and karchev.

Run many jack.
Jack is funny looking.

>>53367653
best casters: Haley2, Haley3, Deneghra1. in no particular order.

>>53367640
A few things to be honest.

>Hidden Blade instead of Weapon Master
>2 upkeeps basically mandating either Despoiler or Marketh or both
>Cost 3 offensive spell basically being his main schtick on a Fury 6 caster which basically means you definitely want Marketh
>Said cost 3 spell is also low range so you want bonegrinders/cyclops shaman as well and/or Marketh
>feat is warrior models only
>escorts don't have Acrobatics
>his main schtick is completely ignored by Legion
>no damage buff
>hit buff is dependent on Marketh/Cost 3 spell/sacrificing an escort
>flashing blade is wasted on him

>>53361600
I hope you are prepared to grind all day long.

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>>53366231
Hey dude, I'm the autist that posted the Jak and Daxter scheme a while ago so this didn't take long to do. If you'd like anything changed I have some time tomorrow.

Also found this for reference: http://img09.deviantart.net/4978/i/2015/106/e/2/samus_variants_by_tchukart-d8pwsxl.jpg

>>53362937
>Naaresh
>Zaal2
>Hexeris2
>Xekaar
>Morghoul3
>Xerxis2
The only ones in there that are shit are Xekaar and Morg3. And the latter only due to being worse than Morg2.

>>53368087
>>53367897
Worth noting that Morg3 has one of the best games against CoC in the entire game.

>>53365175
Ouch. Seems they only did the jump from GW games quite recently. It'll take a while for them to get away from the mindset that houserules are necessary to fix the game.

>>53368109
But does he really do it better than Morg2? I know blinding TEPs is disgusting, but do you really need more than 1 turn of that?

>>53368145
Morghoul2's range of blinding is also 2" further.

>>53363612
You need to git gud anon. Trolls are fucking awesome and have a bunch of excellent options

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>>53366231
>>53367958
Put this together real quick too.

>>53363612

Remember when the Trollkin brick was a thing? Remember when they nerfed warders as soon as trollkin started doing well in the meta? Remember how they sat on their hands with respect to BANEZ for all of MK 2?

PP doesn't care about making a balanced game. They wish they were GW. They hate the players who want a competitive game with balanced rules, because it makes them do work. They want to dictate what people buy without having to earn it; they don't want players to avoid underperforming units because it hurts their bottom line.

>>53367958
>>53368475
Wow, thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for, it really gives me an idea what I'd be working with. I'll likely do some tweaks along the way, but it looks promising.

>>53368532
Whoa there lad, be careful you don't cut yourself with all that edge

>>53368619
Your welcome, dude.

I think that Myrmidon has potential. Reminds me of Megatron from War for Cybertron. I hope to see something like it in /wip/ one day.

>>53368475
Props anon for helping another anon out, that actually looks like a prett slick scheme

>>53368532
Well Trollbloods are the victim faction in the fluff.

>>53369017

Also Menites, who, based off of the Siege of Sul, their own god doesn't even want them to win.

>>53369094
>Siege of Lul
Menoth realised that his Protectorate are a bunch of assholes doing more to harm belief in him than good. When your followers are burning down towns because they can't physically build a church in your name, something's gone wrong.

>>53369094
>their own god doesn't even want them to win
He wants them to win. But what is far more important to Menoth is that his followers stay 100% loyal to him. And Hierarch McFucktherules was not. he got drunk on power that wasn't his.

>>53368087
Naaresh is a worse Zaadesh2, Hexeris2 was quite literally created to deal with the Bane spam that no longer exists, Zaal2 doesn't do anything that Zaal1 doesn't do WAY better, and Xerxis2 is a fury 5 caster that wants a huge battlegroup.

>>53369118

Yeah, I still think that that was the Harbinger backstabbing Voyle because she knew that if he pulled off what he was going to she wouldn't have as much power; he'd be too powerful of a leader. Giving a relic sword to Stryker, a guy who had gone genocidal on Menites? Fuck her. Fuck her forever. The fact the the writers thought that made sense? Fuck them too.

>>53369115

That was literally just the Harbinger. Who was also the person who engineered Voyle's death. Reznik's a loony but Severius understood how to play the politics game and get people to convert.

>>53369144
If only there was a single part of your post that was not totally wrong. I don't even know where to start.

Naaresh and Zaadesh play completely differently, but i do agree that Zaadesh2 offers more flexibility. Hexy2 might be our best Cryx answer right now (if you don't believe me, listen to Mr Banky) and we sure as hell need one. Zaal2 plays nothing like Zaal1 aside from wanting infantry. They don't even want the same kind of infantry. And if you think X2 has Fury issues I must seriously question your sanity. Are you trying to play him as a spell slinger? Him only getting a single Stranglehold per turn is by design.

>>53369215
>Hexy2 might be our best Cryx answer right now
Meaningless in a world where you don't have to worry about Cryx at every single event.
>Zaal2 plays nothing like Zaal1 aside from wanting infantry
Yeah because Zaal1 actually does good stuff like fueling PS13+4d6 Immortals.
>if you think X2 has Fury issues I must seriously question your sanity
I'm pretty sure that 5" x 2 = 10". Maybe I'm wrong.

>>53369252
>Meaningless in a world where you don't have to worry about Cryx at every single event.
Do you even fucking play this game? Or do you just repeat hot memes? Cryx is one of the hardest matchups for Skorne.
>Yeah because Zaal1 actually does good stuff like fueling PS13+4d6 Immortals.
I thought you only had no idea of Zaal2, but you also have 0 clue of Zaal1. He doesn't even take Immortals.
>I'm pretty sure that 5" x 2 = 10". Maybe I'm wrong.
Now if only we had ways of getting around that. Like three different ones.

How would I go about finding a scan of the Iosan terrain guide from No Quarter #34? There doesn't seem to be a NQ collection on any of my usual sources.

>>53369290
>Do you even fucking play this game? Or do you just repeat hot memes? Cryx is one of the hardest matchups for Skorne.
Well if you're asking for my personal experience, then I've played against Cryx quite a bit and the only time it's felt like a struggle was Denny1 Ghost Fleet, which even then I've done okay against because unlike most Skorne players, I have a list that can assassinate.
>I thought you only had no idea of Zaal2, but you also have 0 clue of Zaal1. He doesn't even take Immortals.
I've been stomped by one of the best Skorne players in the UK, and one of my friends has too. Both times he used Zaal1 with 2 units of Immortals and all the trimmings. He said that he can't understand why people have such a low opinion of Zaal1, and honestly I can see why. They're like Dawnguard Sentinels except being constructs means lots of rules don't work on them. And when they go in they're higher MAT and higher PS. I've seen a Khador player from the UK team get beaten by the list.
>Now if only we had ways of getting around that. Like three different ones.
And what do you get for bringing models that deal with your caster's problems? A huge base that wants to run around the map but has to fuck around with flags and objectives. You literally have to play Xerxis2 like a man in a wheelchair, making accomodations for him non-stop.

Anyone complaining about Ghost Fleet in Skorne should consider Hexy1. He has one of the best matchups against the list.

>>53369471
And one of the worst matchups against the rest of the game.

>>53369471
You have one turn to get rid of three unit leaders with Hexy1. Hexy2 can do it any turn. And his other spells are just great into Cryx aswell.

>>53369477
Maybe you should try playing him more if you honestly believe that.

Parasite in a faction that can put good guns on the table is something to behold.

>>53369495
Hexy2 has issues removing heavy armor through, unless he shells out for a Mammoth. And while that combo is good, it brings weaknesses and issues that aren't always easy to solve with whatever list you pair it with.

>>53369568
If I was going to support guns I'd rather bring Morghoul2 or Rasheth.

>>53369568
>Hexy2 has issues removing heavy armor through
Is that really an issue into Cryx? Or most factions for that matter. I wouldn't play him into Khador (unless they bring two Infantry lists) or Protectorate, but the other factions don't bring insurmountable amounts of armor.

>>53369576
I'd do the same, but neither of them bring reliable RfP.

>>53369576
Rasheth only gets a single turn to do it, requires more commitment from his army to arc his spells, and is still a large base ARM14 caster who can often be difficult to hide. He also has no effective RFP for the situations that most benefit it.

Morg2 is a great caster, yes, but gunlines aren't really his jam. He can absolutely make them work, but it feels far better to use his feat to just set up for an alpha, rather than trying to gun them down. Plus, he fixes RAT in a faction that generally doesn't have much problem hitting with their guns, besides maybe slingers.

Hexy can put a combined arms list on the table that guns well and melees fairly well that can deal with single large targets as well as more numerous targets, while also boasting some of the best RFP access in the game. And for a bonus, he can often win attrition even when he's bit hit hard against infantry lists, as he can simply devote his turn to the enemy army instead of his own.

>>53369600
You still see various colossals on the table, and the only one Hexy1 doesn't really like is the Woldwrath. I don't know if jackspam is something he likes, but basically everything beyond that he can clear.

Plus, as an added benefit, he's got some pretty damn good game into Grymkin as well, once they drop.

>>53369568
But I STOPPED playing Hexxy1 because he felt weak against the field. I got sick of Iron Fangs and Dawnguards shrugging off Obliterations, sick of his feat's impotence against CoC and heavy spam in general. What good is Death March in a faction whose infantry needs help surviving the perilous journey across the table? He doesn't give infantry what they need, doesn't do anything for heavies. He's a spell slinger whose biggest spell is a fucking awful version of Hellmouth.

Is the community ever going to settle? People massively come and go on a monthly basis. First, because new ed was shiny, thrn because it sucked. Then back again when it was patched and out again when pg program was dropped. Back again for cid and out again because new models are shit. Can't you get your shit together like gw cucks? Gives me conniptions.

>>53369708
Death March is absolutely a way for infantry to deliver themselves, man. Just because you suck at positioning your shit doesn't mean it isn't.

And his feat is the weakest part of his kit, man, situationally amazing but otherwise something not really worth using.

And why would you Oblit fucking Iron Fangs or Sentinels? Just Parasite them and then shoot them off the table.

So will Kraye2 get off the horse, or just get a fancier horse like Stryker?

>>53369877
Parasite is no better than Mortality. 1 more ARM but the 2DEF isn't nothing. It's perhaps worse as Marketh can't cast it so you only get to bring down 1 big target per turn. It's also a bit of a nonbo with Death March. Why would you Death March your Reivers? Just incase? Or are you bringing melee infantry with him too? So you're not playing theme? Then why are you using Hexxy1 over just about any other caster?

>Because of the Cryx matchup!

Suck muh dick.

>>53370050
Why the fuck would I play him in theme when Brigands exist?

And Swordsmen are exceptional Death March targets.

And you're bringing him over any other caster because Hexy reliably puts his debuff on the opponent with very little risk to himself, and he can do it every single turn.

>>53370107
>Why the fuck would I play him in theme when Brigands exist?
Because Reivers are better than Brigands and they're in theme. RNG16, can CRA, can reroll any missed hits when doing a CRA.

>you're bringing him over any other caster because Hexy reliably puts his debuff on the opponent with very little risk to himself, and he can do it every single turn.
Any other caster except Rasheth then.

You know, Swordsmen were the ONE unit I didn't think you'd say. Because my god if you want to Vengeance them just bring Makeda2 because it's her elite cadre. And she can Stay Death the very vulnerable, very squishy UA. If he dies then you've got a worse unit of Nihilators. And she has Dash and Deflection. And her feat is ALWAYS good. Is +3POW on your Brigands really worth losing all of your infantry in its attempt to cross the table?

>>53370223
>Because Reivers are better than Brigands and they're in theme.
Now if only those two units were even comparable. But they do completely different things.

>just bring Makeda2
And play an entirely different list?

This started out fucking retarded but we have transcended that state.

>>53370236
It started out with a question of casters being better than other casters. You suggested Hexxy1 do something that Makeda2 can do so much better, begging the question of whether you should just force that to be your gameplan because one caster is just plain better than the other. This was never a question of who does the best gunline, it was a question of who are the better casters.

>>53369912
Battleengine

>>53370285
>it's just a huge wooden horse

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Leaked Butcher4 concept art

>>53370787
>SPD decreases as the dogs die
I'm sold.

>>53370812
Warjack Allowance: -12

>>53370822
It's a warcaster unit, and each dog has Vengeance but with a different name.

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>>53368422
Can you list a few examples? No need to get super detailed...

>>53370966
>>53368422
I'm curious too. What would you say is a good list pairing in Trolls?

>>53361710
>is there any point in taking things like Cataphract Incindari or the Assault Kommandos?
No, but not because infantry is less played. No theme for model = model not played.
Meanwhile infantry made reappearance with intoduction of infantry themes.

>>53371001
Unrelated anon here, Ragnor is pretty good and Calandra is huge pain in the ass to play against.

>>53369576
Nigga, Hexeris1 turn Reivers into fucking cannoneers.

>>53371021
Yeah but what about a complete pairing?

>>53369387
We have fucking Archidons, your argument is invalid.

>>53369626
I've been playing Rasheth with the CID derp turtles, he fucking loves them.

>>53369144

Zaal2 doesn't do anything that Zaal1 does at all, anon. They have two different playstyles that happen to make use of the same models.

>>53371254
>that happen to make use of the same models
And even then Zaal1 likes Karax and a Mammoth while Zaal2 likes Immortals and a smaller battlegroup. In general, that is.

>>53363612
The game is dead. Get over it mate, better games out there.

Help, I can't beat Convergence
My army of choice is Khador. What can I do?

>>53371794
Uh...Adjust strategies.

What list you like to play and what in specific is troubling you?

>>53371866
Usually I run jack heavy lists, but I have tried zerkova 2 with outsiders. Opponent runs two TEPs and 4 heavies, which he varies based on his caster. Usually three of the ones with the macro pummeler.

>>53371794
You can't just.

Just try to avoid all three of the people who play Convergence.

>>53371025
>>53371021
>>53371001
>>53370966
What pairing you take is going to depend on what you're comfortable with and what's strong in your local area. What works for one player probably won't work for another.

Some examples I've had really good success with are Grim2 for killing dudes, Horgle for blowing up heavies, Doomy3/Ragnor for attrition, Doomy2 for aggressive alpha strikes, Grissel2/Madrak2 from running infantry, and Calandra/Gunbjron are strong generalists.

Which ones you want to run are going to vary based on your meta. Personally I've been winning a lot with a Horgle and Grim2 pairing

>>53371954
Zerkova 2 is not a finished caster in my opinion. More magical hard hitting options have to come out for Khador to be viable.

What's your other caster?

>>53372519
I've got Hark 1, Sorshca 1, butcher 1, and I was gonna try Vlad1 this week

>>53372449
What sorta list do you run with those two?

>>53372591
Honestly, there is no 1 Trick to Defeating the COC. Id say balanced lists go well into them.

Also, they suffer the most when separated by terrain. Just kill models that are the most killy, then focus on support. Without that they mainly can't scratch you.

Is it just me or is there a section of Ret players that will actively ask to be kneecapped every time they get something nice? Someone is unironically asking for Skareth to be removed from the free models list in Defenders of Ios.

>>53373130
A lot of Ret players are nervous about the current state of the game and don't want to see massive nerfs come down later.

The AFG is overpowered with the most recent set of changes, and Kaelyssa is fucking broken in SR2017. We haven't yet achieved the level of community-wide hatred Storm Lances are at, but I can't help but think we're going to be really high up the list after the next errata knocks Cygnar down a touch.

And no, I wasn't the one asking for the change, nor do I think it's particularly important. I am really nervous about what nerfs the AFG is going to get to bring it back into line, as I cannot imagine it going to normal play in its current CID state.

>>53373627
Point me to a functional list that runs 2 AFG's.
Spoiler: You Can't.
I can't say the same about the other BE that isn't a War Wagon.

>>53372449
>Horgle 2

I'm a Troll player anon and laughed at that. Let me know when you win something other than an 8 player local SR.

>>53363612
Don't anon, just buy into another game. If you buy another faction, it's still the same mechanics, just different models. Most of the factions are similar now and the game sure got dull with pre-measuring/proxy hell.

Just try another game, so you have two games to fall back on. PP doesn't really deserve any more money at this point until they get their shit together.

>>53373657
2 AFG lists won't be terribly common if the AFG goes live like it is, but that's no guarantee it's not broken.

Rahn will run two in Defenders of Ios, and people will bitch about it because it removes the charge mechanic from the other player.

>>53373861
>hurr durr hurr
You could have just not posted at all.

>>53373861
You're either trash or don't play Trolls if you think Horgle is bad. I can't help you

>>53368532
>They want to dictate what people buy without having to earn it
What the fuck does that even mean?

>>53372631
My Horgle list starts like this

Horgle, the Anvil - WB: +29
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 4
- Mountain King - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29)
- Dire Troll Bomber - PC: 19
- Earthborn Dire Troll - PC: 15

Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6
- Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3

The last seven points can be spent on whatever. You could drop the Earthborn and take a couple lights instead. It depends on how relevant heavy spam is in your meta. Doomy2/3 are good alternate of you don't like setting the world on fire or your meta is all immune to fire

For Grim you take a combined arms list with punching and shooting. He'll be amazing in the Kriel Company theme force. Take stuff like fire eaters and Sluggers. Mortality stuff and shoot it off the table

>>53374149
That it's okay when GW cycles flavors of the month with every fucking release, because they've "earned it" by being around forever.

>>53374244
>>53371025
>>53371021
>>53371001
Also remember that just because trolls can have lots of guns they cannot play a gunline. You can try but it's not their strength

All your guns exist to soften up the bad guys before you eat them with a Mauler

>>53374260
I get that PP has fucked up and Soles is a cunt, but I don't get the impression that PP doesn't care.

I don't have a feeling that they are purchase fishing, or trying to cycle stuff. They fucked up massively by splitting up too much stuff at the same time, but it's slowly beginning to come together.

I think the Trolls Book comes after the MOW Book, and then Trolls can get some extra theme lists, some revisions, and some lovin.

>>53373874
So Mk1 and 2 pHaley? Got it.

>>53374359
The fact that they nerfed her only after she lost the no charging part of TB was such a kick in the dick from PP.

>>53374244
Have you tried sluggers with horgle? They sound (if not good) pretty dang funny.
>potentially 15 fully boosted shots on feat turn

>>53374322
The troll book is already out
Or are you talking about the northkin book?

>>53374322
I think there have been two massive fuckups that look like purchase fishing in Mk3: Mad Dogs and Scarsfells. I'm not convinced these were purchase fishing as opposed to just fuckups because the designers who make the final decisions weren't as familiar with the competitive scene as they should be, so they hired Pagani, and nothing ridiculous has happened since.

The Battle Engine CID cycle was expressly designed to sell models, yes, but I don't think you get to complain *unless* the game effect of it is to make those models mandatory, and only a couple look like they're anywhere near that power level (Animantarax, maybe?), but holy shit, if they don't fuck the game up but make more shit playable, that's a clear plus, right?

>>53374521
Yeah the Northkin Book.

Like The "Bane Theme" readjustment just began with Mechanithralls and Banes...Then expanded to The Stitch Thralls. And then the Desecrator, and then the Sepulcher!

Point being that when PP doesn't have some asshole breathing down its neck about direction (The Gun Carriage must be in melee!) they where very flexible.

Who says that can't happen with trolls?

>>53374497
I have, and they're pretty awesome. I just never seem to have enough points to squeeze them in. Maybe once Kriel Company is out I can get them in, right now Fire Eaters are just too important

>>53374322
>>53374577
The Trencher theme is up next for CID followed by Northkin. They haven't announced actual dates yet but June seems likely.

MoW are going to be sometime after that in July or August

>>53374557
>The Battle Engine CID cycle was expressly designed to sell models, yes, but I don't think you get to complain *unless* the game effect of it is to make those models mandatory, and only a couple look like they're anywhere near that power level (Animantarax, maybe?), but holy shit, if they don't fuck the game up but make more shit playable, that's a clear plus, right?

Exactly. I don't get it. Why does GW fuck over its fanbase for years, Deletes ENTIRE FACTIONS (If they just don't feel like it), and then their "Grand Return" is making NuMarines (When PP made bigger jacks they where just bigger jacks, And made them modular thus made the whole game cheaper).

Im not saying PP is perfect. It definitely took massive hits for being shit in many categories. But I feel like its TRYING. Trying much harder then in MKII.

>>53374359
Basically.

With the upgrades and the grindiness of SR2017, you're going to see dual AFG lists built to not just win on hard attrition but to wear down the other guy's soul.

It will be glorious; we will add "tilt" as a dick-move list design win condition to "clock".

>>53374620
Yep.

I'm just waiting for full stats to come out on Tacticals vs. nuMarines and waiting for the nuMarines to completely obsolete the existing ones.

While PP is currently making shit that people already have collecting dust on their shelves work better in-game. I think my biggest fear is that the Battle Engine push isn't *entirely* to clear out stock, but to also change the aesthetic of the game, pushing it more towards WHFB-style centerpiece model stuff, which I'm not *entirely* opposed to, but, y'know, I'm not sure I'm fully on-board with game decisions being driven by aesthetic reasons. But we already hate Soles, so I'm just beating a dead horse...

>>53374710
>I'm just waiting for full stats to come out on Tacticals vs. nuMarines and waiting for the nuMarines to completely obsolete the existing ones.

Even if they don't, It's so...Fucking pathetic. When A Warmachine Faction gets a New Jack, it's this new design with new function. Not just "Slightly bigger and slightly bigger stats".

>I think my biggest fear is that the Battle Engine push isn't *entirely* to clear out stock, but to also change the aesthetic of the game, pushing it more towards WHFB-style centerpiece model stuff

I think it's quite frankly that's impossible because of the points cost of the stuff. Colossals come much closer to being centerpieces, but they are balanced by being actually less healthy than just 3 jacks or beasts.

>>53374710
How dare PP make those underused models interesting and playable! The audacity!

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So I'm still trying to figure out Ghyrrshyld. He has three really good spells (Frost Field, Ghost Walk, and Hex Blast) and a really good field marshall but I just haven't been able to figure out if he wants a big Battle group or not. I find myself wanting to take advantage of Arcane Vortex and the Feat by bringing lots of jacks but he doesn't do enough for lights to justify spamming them. On the other hand Ghost Walk and Frost Field are great on units but most Ret infantry dies too easy for the feat. Revive has been a trap every time I've used it.

>>53373876
Nah I'm helping another gamer out. He'll be happier with two systems. Strange it made you mad.

>>53374038
Win something with him. Show me where someone placed in a major tournament with him.

Oh that's right, you can't. Because you're some random gamer on an internet forum that really doesn't know what he's talking about. You probably played him once, against someeone that doesn't know the rules and now you illuminate the entire internet on how someone just needs to 'git gud' and learn how to play. In truth, if you played a serious player, you'd have your shit shoved in.

It's been like this since Mk 1 with bad player advice. Show me the money or stfu and masturbate to your theory games.

>>53376292

More like;

"We can't balance our shit, so instead of giving you a balanced game to play, we need you to test shit for us and help us make it balanced in your free time. Thanks."

It may be a nice gesture but it's a pretty sad statement on their ability to make interesting models with interesting rules.

Maybe they should do a CID with their molding process too for their plastics. I've seen Chinese recasters do a better job, so they might get some help there.

Or they can reach out to electronic gamers and see if they can successfully (for once) launch an electronic IP foray that isn't a complete disaster :).

>>53376685
I think you have some anger issues that need to get worked out anon. Seek help

>>53376603
I feel like he's going to need some errata work pretty quickly.

Backlash is legitimately useless and should be switched out for Mortality or something. His feat is just awful, Ret can do almost nothing with it.

>>53376752
>It may be a nice gesture but it's a pretty sad statement on their ability to make interesting models with interesting rules.

Would you rather have the alternative of Mk1 and 2 where nothing gets brought up for years? Or the GW model of 'here's your Codex, you're stuck with it for the next 4 years'? I'd actually like to put some of my battle engines on the table instead of collecting dust on a shelf.

You may not love it, but having the community go over playtest rules first is only a good thing for the game. We won't be anymore Tunas and models that don't see play will get tweaked. That's awesome

>>53376886
Don't bother he's just looking for reasons to get mad.

>>53376886
I love that video games have been doing this for at least a decade and people love it but as soon as a tabletop dev does it its because they're shit at their jobs.

Shit, people pay to get beta access to video games.

>>53376987
>>53376940
There's a pretty vocal minority of the community that just hates everything PP does. They fuck up plenty, but they also do some actually interesting things now and then

>>53376753
>I have no evidence to backup my claims the post

I'm glad you tear up your small local meta, most of which probably don't know the rules. It doesn't mean anything at all though, except on the internet right?

>>53376886

It remains to be seen if it's a good thing. I'm sure it's going to sandpaper off the blatant rough edges but outside of that, I'm not sure.

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>>53376940

I bet you think they make great fluff too :)

>>53376987

The funny thing is that they avoided having a MK III field test because retailers (Like what's his bucket from black diamond) told them they didn't sell well while they were on. Remember that post from... Hungerford I think it was? Talking about how experienced players shouldn't give new players advice about which units were worth buying/effective?

Basically retailers were salty that the playgroups in their store made new players savvy buyers, so they couldn't upsell them on "You need every unit blah blah blah also like three copies of this thing that's been sitting around on my shelf that I can't get rid of." And PP didn't want to spend the effort to make a game where there were units that were just not viable, so they got salty at their playerbase for not only getting smart to their bullshit, but minimizing the amount of time new players could be taken advantage of. Hence no MK III field test, that's why the new edition was shit... they didn't want their customers buying smart, or holding off until they knew what was good and what wasn't. Moreover, based on 2Una, they are fine with making new broken models with abilities they knew were bullshit (Her feat was strikingly similar to some other casters' who got nerfed/altered... hmmm) if they think it'll sell. And then immediately nerfing things once they've got that first run sold.

>>53376603
Depends I see him using a lot of Infantry, and supporting them using a spam of griffons and Aspis with House Shyeel Archanist ( seeing how they can load them up for the Arcane Vortexl and Ghyrrshyld can revive them. Alternatively you can go Defenders of Ios go with 2 units of Halberdiers and use advance move and feat to discourage them moving into zones. Personally though I think that with Frost Field, Hermea, and an AFG he is going to be a decent control caster. And he does wonder with Invictors giving them reliable pathfinder and a way to break through stealth.

>>53377428
>The funny thing is that they avoided having a MK III field test because retailers (Like what's his bucket from black diamond) told them they didn't sell well while they were on. Remember that post from... Hungerford I think it was? Talking about how experienced players shouldn't give new players advice about which units were worth buying/effective?

That's a very shitty business practice and I'm glad it bit them on the ass. Im also glad they are going back on it. And every model will instead be proofed for people to buy it instead of just being jerks.

Now, of course, it remains to be seen what emerges from "Internal" playtests. I don't LIKE PP. PP isn't my friend. But I like stuff and I like playing games with people so that's what I want to happen.

>>53376603
His best abilities are FM: Arcane Vortex, Chiller and Hexblast. So realistically, you want to build him in a hard anti-spell denial list. Which isn't really a normal option you want for two list format - maybe in three list as a back pocket.

List wise, I tend to go like this:
>Colossal (strong Frost Field target) or 2x Banshees
>usually an arc node (Chimera for FM synergy or Hermera for Empowered Arc Node)
>Sylys
>Dawnguard Sentinels + UA
>Spears of Scyrah + Eiryss3 (only real solid option for revive)
>usual arcanists

Even then, I'm not sold. I've tried him with the Nyss boat, and he doesn't really support it. I've tried him with jack spam, and its not really worth it even with the Shyeel arcanists. Recently I've had some success with Houseguard Halberdiers - namely because the Thane brings a spd buff and Frost Field can help mitigate their Mat. But its almost like he doesn't really have a place.

Backlash was a terrible spell on him. It should have been traded out.

>>53377496
Mage Sight only affects Battlegroup.

>>53377269
There's no reason to be such a giant cunt about it. Cool your shit, it's a game and people were genuinely trying to help out the op with Trolls. My local area I happens to be Phoenix, which is about as competitive and cut throat as it gets.

OP asked for advice, i gave him informed advice based on a ton of grants played and observed both locally and internationally. Can you say the same?

Where do you play and what events have you won that makes you think you can try and tear down others that are trying to help out?

>>53377923

Texas is the most competitive meta.

It's the internet, grow a pair. People are blunt, if you're a cupcake, find the CID forums.

And giving him bad advice on how Horgle is going to tear shit up isn't good advice.

>on a ton of grants played and observed both locally and internationally. Can you say the same?

That gave me a chuckle anon. Sorry if reality hit a bit close there.

>>53377976
I didn't say Horgle would tear shit up. I said he's good depending on how prevalent jack spam is in his local area. There's a pretty big difference. I'm not talking about the international meta here, no one on this board is even close to that.

Read the actual post before jumping on your high horse and acting like an ass.

>>53378096

Not acting like an ass anon, keeping it real.

Your quote I responded to was "You're either trash or don't play Trolls if you think Horgle is bad" Not "He's good against Jack spam".

Even against Jack spam, with his Fury issues he's not that great unless they're shitty players and give you multiple jacks in his Ctrl area.

>>53377976
>Texas is the most competitive meta.
That's debatable, but even if it was do you seriously think there aren't any other competitive metas out there?

You're fucking delusional

My locals starting an escalation type league so I fugre its time to get out of Cygnar. What FactionCaster should I play for the next 6 weeks?

>>53378297
>"He's good against Jack spam".
Um, I never said that. He's good depending on how much jack spam you see. If you a ton of it he's not the right answer

>>53378356
Ret is pretty dope these days, very few dud models.

>>53378297
>Not acting like an ass anon, keeping it real.
You need to be 18 or older to post on these forums.

>>53378358
To expand on this, Trolls have a pretty rough time with the Khador jack spam list. You're best option is going to be Doomy2 or 3 and trading as effectively as possible

>>53378442
I think Trolls deserve the next big overhaul next.

So Far Skorne got the biggest and the Earliest, then Cryx got a pretty big rehaul as well, I think trolls deserve the next one.

Will all the errata it feels like there will be a MKIII.5 that will be the real edition purely from nerfs or buffs.

>>53374557
>Mad Dogs and Scarsfell
If you were a retard that ran out and bought 14 Mad Dogs then that's on you.

>>53376752
This is the thing that gets me to be honest. The idea that

A) They admitted their playtesting was severely lackluster by introducing CID.

B) They waited way too long to introduce CID and by the time they did interest had seriously waned.

C) They don't actually listen to most of the feedback until it's too late, and it's clear from their initial proposals that they don't have any kind of statistics to work off of - they're just throwing conceptual shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks.

The ultimate tragedy of Mk3 is that it's not even a terrible game. On the whole it might even be slightly better than Mk2. But the entire process revealed that PP in general and Soles in particular are pants-on-head retarded and their previous success was because they were capitalizing on an underutilized market with no competition. Now that there are better competitive games out there with less overhead PP is fucked.

>>53378583
Frankly Skorne deserves the next big errata. They're still underperforming.

>>53374784

>they are balanced by being actually less healthy than just 3 jacks or beasts.

I don't think I could really ever justify taking one in MK2 given it's too easy for a single Heavy to destroy them.

Take the Conquest or Viktor for instance.

Why would I ever take those when I can just take a Kodiak, Demolisher, Devastator and Spriggan or some other combination that isn't concentrated in one Large Base?

>>53379114

Looking at the evolution of Soles' hair over the years is all you need to see to know he's mentally challenged.

In any case, I think Soles is the kind of dude who was ok with Cryx being op for MK 2 because he felt they should have been. Like Ward with the Daemon codex.

I love how the player base is still arguing over what factions deserve the next big overhaul.

If your lead designer says the new edition was tested for 3 years, then 6 months after release you finally admit that you need public playtested, and shit still isn't remotely fixed? Especially after most people's favorite shit got axed in the transition to begin. With, and the collective salt is driving people to other games?

Supporting PP while Soles is still lead designer is dumb. Let the game get bought by someone who is competent enough to make the game fun again.

>>53379114
>C) They don't actually listen to most of the feedback until it's too late, and it's clear from their initial proposals that they don't have any kind of statistics to work off of - they're just throwing conceptual shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks.

Id say they do. Just do understand that when 50 people scream different things it is probably for the best to move slowly. But it IS true that they don't really follow any statistics.

What bothers me more is that they don't follow logical army progression.

>The ultimate tragedy of Mk3 is that it's not even a terrible game. On the whole it might even be slightly better than Mk2. But the entire process revealed that PP in general and Soles in particular are pants-on-head retarded and their previous success was because they were capitalizing on an underutilized market with no competition. Now that there are better competitive games out there with less overhead PP is fucked.

Now this is 100% True.

Before any fault PP had was shouted down with "THEY KNOW BETTER THEN YOU, YOU PROBABLY MISSED IT!"

Now it's "Yeah they probably fucked up". God just fucking fire soles! Lock him in a bomb shelter!

>>53379219

>Especially after most people's favorite shit got axed in the transition to begin

This is what I don't get. Like, a lot of people played Legion because they like big gribbly monsters that eat everything. Then they nerf those big gribbly monsters... why should those people keep playing Legion?

>>53379401
This is a stupid Argument (In Isolation). Like Let's say a monster is too good, and mops the floor with everything else. Do we just arbitrarily raise numbers until everythings Stats eventually reach into the double digits to not "Nerf" anything.

Sometimes maybe one monster does too much, and overtakes the role of other monsters. Also they want to be viable despite the rest of the monsters.

Now Im not a Legion player, so the salt probably comes from the over nerfing of choices (Or Probably how they only have 1 truly beat stick beast). But:

"Waaah I liked it why they nerfed it!"

Is really childish argumentation.

>>53379495

While I agree that internal faction balance should be thought of, I feel that Legion players have a legitimate gripe with how things were handled in the changeover. I know I do as a long time Menite player; I felt like a lot of the "fun" was taken out of models in the transition to MK III. Removal of attack bonus from Choir, nerf of Avatar, all that shit...

It's not so much about nerfs, per se. You could nerf everything or buff everything. The dropping of the speed on the non-flying Legion heavies was the biggest thing. In MK 2 those beasts were very expensive but very well-rounded and effective (and not amazingly tough for their points investment). In MK 3 that's not the case; they're no longer a model that can change the course of the game in the same way.

And that's not even getting into Skorne, who clearly failed on a conceptual and mechanical level. I'm guessing nobody on the design team actually played/enjoyed Skorne so nobody cared if they were fun or effective on the tabletop.

>>53379114
>Now that there are better competitive games out there with less overhead PP is fucked.

Honestly I'd be perfectly happy if all the competitive players left for another game. As long as enough casual player stick around to keep the lights on I'd be more than happy to never have to deal with some of those tryhards again. And this is from someone who participated in the competitive scene until I realized how much it made me dread playing the game.

>>53379576
>The dropping of the speed on the non-flying Legion heavies was the biggest thing.
I can tell you exactly why this happened. Kallus2 and overrun

Is there some agreed point we are waiting for that will either kill the game or revitalize it? Conclusion of CID? I'm tired and worn out by the constant tide of people leaving and coming back and I worry what and when will happen to my favourite game. I just want people to agree on its state and stick to their guns.

>>53379114
>>53379616
>Now that there are better competitive games out there with less overhead PP is fucked.

Such as?

>>53379576
>Choir only give +2 to damage rolls now WAAHHHHH
Suck my Hoksune cock.

>>53379627

Of course. So that people would have to buy/play Kallus if they wanted that flavor. Nerf the usefulness out of existing models, make it so you have to buy new ones to make it work again.

>>53379660

Considering Khador got a shit ton of MAT 7 'jacks in the transition... I would have rather kept the +2 to attack rolls. Especially for the ranged game.

>>53379576
>While I agree that internal faction balance should be thought of, I feel that Legion players have a legitimate gripe with how things were handled in the changeover. I know I do as a long time Menite player; I felt like a lot of the "fun" was taken out of models in the transition to MK III. Removal of attack bonus from Choir, nerf of Avatar, all that shit...


Il be kind and Il call it "Simplifing" if you wanna be unkind you can call it "Blandifying".

My point is whilst allot of this stuff WAS fun (As a Khador Player I DID enjoy Defense 17-18 Infantry), it was also very skewing. The end result was that you picked like 1-2 Optimal models and then everything else fell by the wayside. Unless you could answer the hyper defense skew you where fucked. Unless you could also kill the banes before they got to you to where fucked.

Mechanithralls despite being super cheap, hit as hard as the most elite infantry.

I think this is where the #Designspace gag came from. Once You have a Optimum unit or Warnoun, everything else had to compete with it.

Personally, I'm glad that the Behemoth is less Taken, and that the WGI are less accurate, and easier to kill. But PP has fucked up in many places for sure.

>>53379726

The thing that was weird to me is that they tolerated the hyper defense skew and the BANEZ/McThralls imbalance for all of MK2, but then nerfed the shit out of trollbloods box spam as soon as it became extant. And in Cryx's case, it seemed their attitude was "Banes were too good last edition. Let's make them unplayable this edition."

They didn't escape the idea of autoincludes, they just re-randomized what they were.

>>53379724
>Choir are shit because <Another warjack using faction> got something good!
WANNA KNOW WHAT SKORNE GOT IN THE TRANSITION?

>>53379789

Heh, you won't find me suggesting that Skorne weren't waaay more fucked. But that compounds the problem, it doesn't excuse it.

>>53379653
Pretty much all of the smaller skirmish games that are picking up steam with PP shitting the bed. Guild Ball especially, locally WoK, Infinity, and Bushido are getting really popular too.

>>53377976
TEXAS? Holy dogshit! Only faggots come from Texas!

>>53379616
Casual players aren't going to start a fucking Warmahordes army now that you can field an entire fucking faction in other games for a fraction of the cost.

For the cost of one unit in Warmachine you can nearly have a full team in Guild Ball or Infinity. Casual are going after those games way harder than Warmachine ever dreamed of, and I've noticed that those games are a lot less soul-crushing for a lot of the casual crybabies that quit Warmachine because they kept getting assassinated.

>>53379830
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFSdj1J5Vw

>>53379785
>They didn't escape the idea of autoincludes, they just re-randomized what they were.

You are correct. Some stuff remains better then others. But that auto includes are nearly as dominant as in MKIII is a lie. It's a propagated lie, but it is still one. Things that where auto includes before were on a different playing field.

PP became more and more willing to nerf as the 2nd edition came to an end. Ultimately, their flexibility now is a good thing. I am a "Forgive but don't Forget" kinda guy.

Im also "Don't Assume Insidiousness when you can assume incompetence instead". Why does PP do shitty decisions? Because they had stupid people at the wheel. Letting us grab that wheel and steer them away from suicide is a good thing.

>>53379862
>"Don't Assume Insidiousness when you can assume incompetence instead"
Malice is a much better word than insidiousness.

>>53379886
>Malice is a much better word than insidiousness.

But insidiousness is a whole lot more FUN to say.

>>53379846
>Casual players aren't going to start a fucking Warmahordes army now that you can field an entire fucking faction in other games for a fraction of the cost.

I have talked to store owners and they say this is exactly why PP isn't selling anymore. It's too difficult to penetrate as a new player because of SKU bloat and the fact that people only ever want to play 75 pt games. On top of that half of the hardcore crowd quit because of PP fucking up Mk3 so the only people still playing are the mega-diehards who are going to auto-dominate every SR anyway which further puts them off.

So, spend 200 bucks and need to paint 30 models just to get rekt, or less than half that for games that are still pretty new and the playing field is more level. Why would a casual ever play Warmahordes at this point?

>>53379920
My question is why would a casual player ever even get into a Minis game where you have to paint the Minis in the first place.

Isn't that why X wing is Dominating? Because you just buy and play (Questionable balance be damned)?

>>53379846

I dunno, you can get fucked pretty hard by an experienced player in Infinity. Plus the scoring system rewards them for toying with you rather than finishing you quickly.

>>53379862

I think their incompetence combined with their insistence on being treated like they aren't incompetent is what gets me. They were rightly excoriated for their MK 3 changes and what do they do? They neuter their forums to avoid having to deal with an online forum that isn't a hugbox. Bitches.

And you know that new releases will have a disproportionate amount of these new autoincludes to help them move off the shelves. Old stuff? Who cares. Let it rot.

>>53379943
>I think their incompetence combined with their insistence on being treated like they aren't incompetent is what gets me.

Its both an Ego and Marketing thing.

I think Soles actually went over the heads of the marketing department when he started blabbing his fat stupid gob.

>>53379943
>And you know that new releases will have a disproportionate amount of these new autoincludes to help them move off the shelves. Old stuff? Who cares. Let it rot.

Which is why they are putting old stuff through CID, and will continue putting stuff through CID.

Look, I dislike a lot of PPs fuckups, but you just want it binary.

"PP is Teh Devil" when they are just really stupid people.

>>53379846
>>53379809
And what if I don't like skirmish games?

>>53379941
Painting 10 minis isn't as bad as painting 50 of them, but you do have a point.

Even worse, GW has been pulling people who are casually interested with shit like skirmish and kill team rules. PP can't compete with that scale and their fluff/models aren't big selling points either.

Warmahordes has always been about the game, and PP Old Yeller'd consumer confidence in the game. It's only a matter of time before they fold or are forced to sell.

>>53379846

Infinity is interesting and all, but I kind of prefer 40k and WarmaHordes.

I heard Infinity lacks the big units that those two have and is mainly infantry level skirmish, so that kind of turns me away from it.

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>mfw putting together the Slag Troll
Holy fuck never again
WHY ARE THERE A BILLION GAPS

>>53380145
>Warmahordes has always been about the game, and PP Old Yeller'd consumer confidence in the game. It's only a matter of time before they fold or are forced to sell.

But why? Why does PP have worse Consumer confidence then GW? Why can GW treat its consumers like shit but win them back with a flash of really superficial shit and rules really still bad in the whole scheme of things.

>>53380072
Then frankly you're kind of fucked. Warmahordes is the only game on the market that attempts to be competitive at that scale, but support for it is plummeting hardcore and unlikely to recover without Soles getting the axe or PP getting bought out. All the other games at that scale are generally hobbyist games like 40K or FoW or have no real consistent following.

This is really the only reason why PP succeeded in the first place. Mk2 wasn't perfect but we'd gotten used to it and there weren't alternatives. Mk3 made people realize they could get competitive games at a much cheaper price and I think a lot of players aren't likely to return unless something happens that doesn't make them feel like they need to reinvest in their own factions just to field playable armies anymore.

>>53380197
GW has stopped pretending to be anything but a miniature company that happens to also provide rules for a beer-and-pretzels game. People were way more invested in the models and the lore, which you would have to be a blind fanboy not to admit that they blow PP out of the fucking water. 40K games have been mostly an excuse to get painted forces out on the table for an epic narrative engagement and nobody has seriously considered 40K a remotely competitive game since like 3E or 4E.

PP doesn't have that to fall back on. The fluff is superficial, their plastic kits are trash, and people were mostly playing it because it was a great game. But as people start to feel that the game is less great, or only great by accident because their lead developer makes himself look like a moron every time he opens his mouth, it drives people from the game.

>>53380197
Sunk cost fallacy. GW fans have been invested in it so long, they can't bring themselves to leave it behind. PP hasn't been around long enough to get that kind of fandom.

>>53380145
>>53380277

Lore is one of the reasons I chose WarmaHordes over Warhammer Fantasy.

Fantasy's lore was just kind of bland and they never touched on any of the more interesting facets of it like Cathay and what not.

>>53380332
You are in the extreme minority if you got into WMH on the strength of its fluff.

>>53380277
>they blow PP out of the fucking water.

Mainly in Novelty, but even as a guy whos a fan of the lore, Its a really stagnant setting. Even in the major shakups now, things could only be described as

"Chaos gets chaosier, the Imperium gets imperiumier, The Elder get elderiar".

Not to say I'm a huge fan of PPs lore, but I prefer its origins as a D&D setting to the sorta eh, ness of the GW lore.

>>53380072
Try Mantic games. KoW is a surprisingly solid game and I have heard good things about their 40K clone.

>>53380358
The novels make a big difference. Codex/Game fluff is pretty weak on both ends but a lot of 40K novels are wonderful. Can't say the same about Warmachine.

>>53380277
>The fluff is superficial

It's not though.

There is genuinely more depth to Llael than any faction in 40K.

Warmahordes fluff is not as BROAD as, say, 40K fluff, but it's got a ton of depth.

>>53380353
Wmh has lowish generic fantasy setting spiced up with varying degrees of technology that for me stays afloat by very well made grey politics. 40K is an extremely over the top ultra sci-fi that is impossible to take seriously with just how evil everyone is. Also, so many plotholes.

>>53380353

I also got into it because it was what I wanted from medieval fantasy.

In fact, Warmachine-Hordes was what I expected Warhammer Fantasy to be like when I looked into it.

When I found out it wasn't, I dropped Fantasy and started looking elsewhere.

>>53380387
That's a legitimate point.

Jesus fuck why is this game so expensive? Per model it's like the most expensive game on the market.

>>53380387
Wmh novels read like action fantasy for teens. 40K novels read like metal gear solid fanfiction in space and powersuits.

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>TIL mercs have a jr warcaster

wtf, I have NEVER seen this guy anywhere ever. He wasn't even included in the merc faction deck I bought at the beginning of mk3.

>>53380416
>lowish fantasy

Bruh, Immoren is high fantasy as fuck.

>>53380416

>just how evil everyone is

"Evil" would imply that such a word has a universal definition in that setting.

What disappoints me is that people often just look at how bad every faction is and never seem to look at WHY they're that way.

Yes the Imperium is horrible, but it has a very good reason for being that way from what I've seen.

>>53380353
>>53380332

LOL, that's no shit. The lore in Warmahordes reads like 12 year old jerk off fantasy. It's awful.

>>53380387
desu mate the novels aren't worth reading on either side.

Once you've gotten used to actually good writers like Bashevis Singer or Rushdie or even Pratchett, pretty much anything GW or PP puts out feels like pure garbage.

The best self contained story in wargame fiction may actually be the recent Infinity comic.

>>53380434
Because you don't need as many models as in other games.

Shitty excuse, I know, but the average 1500 points list of 40k has 100+ models in it, while the average 75p army has 20-30 models.

>>53380460
And 40K Isn't?

Can we just call all the lore shit then?

>>53380447
He used to be used in Mk2 a little bit more. Having access to a Rat 5 Rof 2 boostable handcannon was a solid solo sniper especially if he had Moving Shadows up. Unfortunately, the requirement to have a warjack really killed some of his use in Mk3, especially since he lost Scavenger.

>>53380460
This applies to 40K just as much as Warmahordes.

For real though I thought this until I read Gods, Nations and Kings. Then I realized that Immoren is a fucking great setting full of interesting shit. It's not as curhaaazy as 40K but it feels a lot more like a living, plausible world.>>53380499

>>53379132

I can't chip in with you there, anon. Pre-errata, I was actually getting the feeling that *everything* was my models' fault (and that's a weird feeling). Post-errata, I'm pretty sure there is room for improvement that I can provide on my end of things.

>>53380499
Howard Tayler wrote a pretty good psych-horror novella dealing with Cephelax

>>53380597
Check out unleashed as well. It shows that even the Boogeymen of the setting weren't as binary.

>>53380621
For me, post-errata has been a frustrating mess of models being in the wrong list at the wrong time. The Krea is ONLY good against gunlines. The Agonizer is ONLY good against melee armies. Bloodrunners are ONLY good against living single box infantry. Keltarii are ONLY good against gunlines. It's as if PP thinks Skorne should be played reactively, when the game doesn't allow you to do that outside of ADR, which is what I'm actually forcing myself to use right now because of this feeling. So many models are strong in their niche and ONLY in their niche.

Isn't it strangle how this game is supposed to be dead, but whenever the memeball players make their own threads, they die within an hour?

>>53380449

Yeah, I mean it's got living gods walking around in the setting (Dragons) and loads of nonhuman races with magical powers and so on.

>>53380358

Eh, Witchfire Trilogy was a trash series of adventurs with a built-in GMPC character. So much of the rpg aspect of the setting seemed to be based around "Here are these awesome, awe-inspiring setting-level threats. But it's badwrongfun to ever be able to challenge them as heroes."

Like why waste fucking pagecount on the dragons when word of god from the writers is that they're undefeatable? It's just them jacking themselves off.

>>53380597
I will concede their RPG fluff is top tier.

But they don't use it well. For such a well developed world most of their narratives are utter shit.

>>53380707
Most of these threads are driven by disgruntled former players dissecting the reasons why the game is dying than people actually still playing the game.

Locally some stores have stopped carrying PP product, but have 10+ people there on GB nights. I can't remember the last time that happened for WMH even in Mk2. Outside of SRs anyway.

>>53380778
found the guildball fag

>>53380778
Keep in mind your local meta is not really an example of the average. It sucks for you but a lot of communities are seeing growth and some are seeing players leave. It varies quite a bit from place to place.

You see a lot of bitching online because people are salty about whatever thing and like to bitch.

>>53380958
My LGS just got 2 new players in the last week or so. Whether they stick around is another question, but hey it's something.

>>53380511
Compare the best of 40k to the best of Warmahordes. It's not even in the same ballpark anon and I hate 40k (the game).

Warmahordes is cringe worthy.

>>53380958
My "local meta" is pretty much the entire northeast and player participation is less than half of what it was at the end of Mk2 and and an even smaller fraction of peak Mk2 (like 2014). I actually see less bitching than, say, a year ago. Bitching is good because it shows people still care about the games. Less true these days.

You don't need to see hard sales figures to infer that PP is not doing well. Going from "we definitely didn't need public playtesting" to "let's get CID running ASAP" doesn't happen unless they are seeing a direct sales impact. Dropping the max retailer discount, too. Eventually when they finally fire Soles (which will be branded as a resignation) it will be because sales have further dropped. All of their recent actions point to looking for a buyer - emphasizing the fluff, cutting expenses like the PG program, axing the forums so nobody sees the salt mines anymore. The game is not healthy anymore.

Look at your conventions and how fast events filled up - WMH used to be full up the day reg opened up, now I can usually snag a spot a couple days before the con. And fewer events are being run.

>>53380958
Regardless of how well you think the game might be doing locally it's hard to argue that the game is where it should be a year after a new edition.

>>53381088
I agree but I think this level of fuckup was needed for an objectively better game.

PP needed a kick in the pants in my mind. If they get resold to better management? Great. If not and they are FORCED to get better?

Also great.

Capitalism isn't a Monarchy.

>>53381060
I can actually answer some of these concerns for you
>Dropping the max retailer discount
This happened as a direct result of GW letting online retailers sell their stuff in the open again and with a discount. They announced this shortly after GW and like it or not they set the market trends for the entire industry

>cutting expenses like the PG program, axing the forums so nobody sees the salt mines anymore
Both of these are curvy result of the WotC lawsuit. They've axed all of their volunteers and things line judges and forum mods are now paid positions.

It sucks, but the decision came down to either no more volunteers or potentially get sued and lose everything.

This stupid lawsuit has had pretty wide consequences for the industry as a whole and other large events like your local conventions.

>>53381088
I was pretty hyped for Mk3 because it seemed like it was pretty obvious some of the stuff that needed to be fixed.

Instead they chopped off all the outliers, reshuffled the balance curve and we just got the same, lame, uneven distribution of outliers that we had in Mk2.

The problem is that those outliers are what makes the game strategically and tactically interesting - the problem was just that some factions had a lot more power models and deeper toolboxes than others. All they accomplished was creating an environment where all but the most hardcore players needed to rebuiild their collections to account for the new meta and didn't seriously improve the game in the process. And now we have the same bullshit theme list problem Mk2 had.

>>53381133
>WotC lawsuit

I think that was a very convenient excuse to drop a program they saw as an unnecessary expense because they didn't think they needed PGs anymore. PGs weren't nearly as coordinated as WotC judges and were unlikely to be subject to the same kind of lawsuits. It makes no sense to axe your army of super-motivated evangelists when you need them most, especially with no warning.

Also, like their one paid mod couldn't moderate faction forums? Please. The forums sucks but there was little there even worth moderating.

>>53381261
I can tell you from experience that modderating the forums was a nightmare. They cut it down so they could have less people involved. While there may not have been much in value on the forums there was piles and piles of shit that needed to be cleaned out.

>PGs
While I wish the program hasn't been canceled I don't think they had much choice. The only other option would be turn the 1000 or so PGs into paid contractors like they did with the judges and they just can't afford that. There's a reason a lot of companies and conventions are switching to paid contractors instead of volunteers. It's to avoid lawsuits

>>53381142

Theme Forces kind of fucked the game up, didn't they? Wonder why they decided to focus so much on them in MK III when they created so many degenerate situations in mk II....

>>53381060

As a long time Warmahordes player, I can testify to this. I don't bitch about the game, I just don't play it much at all. Still have some friends that I play casual with but don't (won't) travel to cons anymore.

I'm not sure what all it is. I know the release was awful and some things could just be glanced at and you knew it was broke. That's part of it, the obvious rush that Mk 3 was. There is no way it was tested for years.

Part of it was the attitude I guess of developers and the cringe worthy episodes where they would actually debate with people on models in the forums (Looking at you Will Shick) and get a litany of their own rules wrong.

Part of it is the failure they've had anytime they try to expand their business (electronic IP, new casting material, etc.)

There's probably other things too but I just don't give a shit about the game much anymore. I used to help run leagues, teach new players, actively recruit new players. Now I just play with buddies and branch out into other games.

It's pretty dead for me and kind of beer/pretzels. They really fucked up a good thing.

>>53381458
Not really.

I think the idea was for armies to feel right I suppose. Also it can allow for armies that ususally couldn't get specific buffs.

Like lets say there is a purely greylord army. Usually, Khador can't get damage buff support. But in a pure greylord army, that stuff might be useful for Zerkova.

>>53381458
How? A lot of miniatures turned from trash into playable thanks to themes.

When was the last time you've seen someone go out to buy a fucking Manhunter? mk1?

>>53381744

Nah, people used them in MK 2. Saw 'em run with Butcher 2.

Question for you guys.

Since all of you guys seem to hate the game so much of thick it's a total failure, why are you all here? Do you actually play the game or do you all just sit around and complain?

>>53381782
Yeah, they were specifically available in his tier list

>>53381828

Even if you weren't running them in tier, they synergized pretty well with his feat.

>>53381811

I really enjoy minis gaming, the hobby, the competition, traveling around and meeting people who enjoy the same hobby, and so on. When WM came out I was like "Man, here's a game I can enjoy competitively, run by a company whose practices aren't as shitty as GW's, they've got page 5 so they're not going to use the sportsmanship excuse when their rules suck, and so on.'

But that promise has been broken. And I'm still pretty salty about it.

>>53381811
I don't play Warmahordes anymore. I play other games, but I haven't sold my Warmahordes armies off, and I don't intend to.

I think the fact that people are still this butthurt about Mk3 is a testament to how much they actually love the game, and how much they hate to see something they love die on the vine due to grossly incompetent management. It incenses people when you see fanboys sticking around defending bad decisions instead of just letting it go so PP is forced to finally fix some of the root causes of the problem.

>>53381960
>>53382110

Truth.

I RETURNED to Warmachine with the New Edition. I like this game. I like the setting (The writing is mostly miss). I like the hobby.

I want to see it live. Excel and surpass what it was before.

>>53381744
Models shouldn't need a theme to be playable, and making a theme to make them viable is shitty design. Fix the fucking model to begin with.

And don't even get me started on them publishing theme forces, letting the models get sold, then nerfing them once they become popular like EE or eDenny. Shit like eHaley goes untouched for like 7 years, but you fuck with EE after it moved a bunch of models nobody would otherwise touch? Thanks PP.

>>53383137

Yeah that's the shit that bothers me. It's like they were content with eHaley being broken, but as soon as troll players were having success it was like "Oh shit, can't have that, pump the brakes"

>>53383170
EE got nerfed because it was the ultimate Cryx drop. It was really hard for Cryx players to play into.

Keep in mind like half the tournament scene was Cryx in Mk2. They were way over represented in terms of total population, and way under-represented in tournament results relative to how many Cryx players there were because everyone needed to have a Cryx drop.

So when you're giving the faction selling the most dudes a hard time...

>>53383170
Best part was all the non-troll players claiming that that particular errata (which also turned Warders into useless turds) claimed that Trolls were finally free to build some new lists.

Bitch, do you not remember how bad we were before MMM and EE? Great, now we're stuck running RoW and pGrim again. Thanks.

>>53383284

Soles also verbally fellates Cryx any chance he gets...

>>53383306

Yeah, they fucked the external balance of Trolls for, supposedly, the sake of internal balance. But I think it was just because Cryx players were too salty; their attitude was that their faction could NPE others but nobody could NPE them or it was a travesty.

>>53383312
.....Wait....

Now it makes total fucking sense. The lack of Errata early on...

It scratches his stupid fetish! The only reason he dropped them now is because he had his own stupid baby!

I hope that man just quits. He decides his true calling is faggy art and he quits forever.

>>53383371
Soles is like the ultimate fa/tg/up. He's everything this board is personified and made real.

>>53383583

To be honest he seems like a refugee from 90's gamer culture, like V:tM fans.

>>53383673
no, he's in a different class. He's more like a V:tM writer, or even a V:tM splat writer. Remember this is the sort of man who believes a cat skeleton to be a fine desk ornament.

Who is Soles? Is he the guy in charge of balance?

>>53366769

Functionally it is just a larger version of the regular Basilisk isn't it?

Just like Molik Karn is essentially just a larger version of a regular Cyclopses with slightly more baroque or ornate armor.

>>53383837

I'm a biologist, so keeping weird skeletons around is kind of par for the course, that doesn't bother me. It's more his fanwank (creatorwank) of the evil factions; I think Menites exist to be the butt monkeys and jobbers of the setting in his eyes. He's the dude who came up with Alexia iirc, who's like the worst GMPC character ever. And he thought that people should play those adventures, which are just the PC playing assistants/handmaidens to Goth Princess #1. That takes a Wickian disregard for your customers' time, money, and enjoyment. I don't think he respects us.

That and his fucking hair. Jesus Christ. He looks like a goth Hare Krishna.

>>53383985
I think there are like 3 Critical people, that have climbed up the ladder through pure persistance.

Once they are gone, the game can live again.

>>53384100
It's really just Soles. The Wills are the only reason the game is even enjoyable to play

>>53384196
Like I guess it really shows that the ignorant and self-loving really can rise.

They just refuse to die.

I don't even HATE the Grymkin, but why now? Its the worst time possible for a new faction.

>>53384196

Are they? I thought Hungerford was shilling the lack of playtest when that was a thing.

>>53384263
If you hate the look of Grymkin, blame Soles. They are actually fun to play and real challenge to play against. That's thanks to the Wills.

>>53384568
The company line is that they had been working on mk3 for three years. Which is actually true. Turns out that wasn't adequate which is why they've decided to do CID.

I'm not sure how much to blame then for that. Mk3 was fucked at launch but I doubt anyone could have done significantly better rules wise.

>>53384646

>The company line is that they had been working on mk3 for three years. Which is actually true.

Well, I kind of doubt it's true, but even if it was, that was a shit effort. Seriously, in three years that was what they had for Skorne? I just can't believe it, you'd have to be blisteringly incompetent. There were so many things that the player base just eyeballed at launch and was like "this is bad" and, surprise surprise, it was bad. It honestly seems much more like a rush job than three years of planning.

>>53384646
>The company line is that they had been working on mk3 for three years. Which is actually true.

It's basic truth stretching. 3 years ago they had the first discussion about mk3. But the actual cunrch time grunt work testing period was about 9 month time period before the launch, and only a bit over 6 of those were actual test time because nothing could be changed for the last few months as everything was being approved and sent for printing.

The actual impetus for mk3 was brought to you by some faggot in accounting panicking over a sales slump and screaming "SHAKE IT UP. SHAKE IT ALL UP NOW."

>>53384824
Lastly nothing can playtest like a community can.

Like right now there is a stable meta. Playtesting based off that meta for small chunklets at a time is much easier then just redoing the whole game full throttle.

>>53384824
You're grossly underestimating how much shit there is in this game to test and go over. It would take months just to get the cards updated, proofed, and sent to printing.

>>53384721
I'm not making an argument for things were well done, but that they did actually work on it for the time they said. Think about how many actual models are in the game, then think about how they all interact with every other model in the game and then think about the core rules and any changes there.

It's a fuck ton of stuff to go over.

It did actually get worked on for three years, it's unfortunate that it got released as it was because it needed another year at least of fine tuning or a community beta test.

Thing is, I don't know how the game would have faired with mk2 the way it was at the end or another community beta test. Things sucked at release but at the game has been consistently improving

>>53384867
>Lastly nothing can playtest like a community can.
This is 100% true. I really wish they had just dropped CID in mk2 and slowly rolled out mk3 over the last year. Things would be so much better

>>53384886

>another community beta test

The last one did great work to balance things out. It would have really helped the game.

>>53384959
It would have also ended sales for the game until mk3 released.

>>53385015

I suppose. But back in MK II, the fact that they were doing a playtest was what brought me back into the game, because I was fed up with MK 1's meta. Dunno if that really bears out en masse; I heard retailers didn't feel any love.

In any case, the lack of proper playtesting drove me out of WM, at least for the forseeable future. So in that sense it's losing them some amount of money; I think they were chasing making retailers happy instead of customers.

>>53384886
>You're grossly underestimating how much shit there is in this game to test and go over. It would take months just to get the cards updated, proofed, and sent to printing.

Yeah no shit, that's how we know they didn't actually work on it for 3 years. The amount of fucked up, misproofed, untested, and goofed rules like the fucked up charge mechanics that initially went to print were a dead give away.

The actual Mk3 release was supposed to be late 2017. It was rushed forward because of a panic over a sales slump. They were gunning for a GW shake 'n' bake to spike up sales with a new edition.

Unsurprisingly this backfired with a community that was attracted by well tested rules did not react well to half baked GW shenanigans. Cue the "playtested for 3 years" memes and the rest is history.

Fortunately unlike GW they soon accepted they fucked up big time and actually took some apologetic steps to stem the hemorrhaging.

>>53385183
>Fortunately unlike GW they soon accepted they fucked up big time and actually took some apologetic steps to stem the hemorrhaging.

Which the community is strangely spiteful towards.

>>53384886
Mk3 was rushed ahead of schedule. It's pretty obvious. There was nearly a FULL YEAR between the announcement of the mk2 field test and actually getting to test the new rules.

Compare that to Mk3. It was announced in April 2016 and released at the end of June. That's about 3 months.

Mk3 came out of fucking nowhere, anon, it wasn't supposed to be released anywhere near that soon. That's why so many models don't make sense and there were so many misprints and failures.

>>53385219
I think they're just still all mad at Soles (and Schick, he's a fucking retard too), which to be fair, they should, and vent wherever about it.

>>53385264
>>53385264
NEW THREAD
SET SAIL

>>53385219
>Which the community is strangely spiteful towards.
The community hates everything at this point. The game could be literally perfect and people would still complain about some bullshit thing

>>53384886
>>53385246

>Mk3 was rushed ahead of schedule. It's pretty obvious. There was nearly a FULL YEAR between the announcement of the mk2 field test and actually getting to test the new rules.

Mk2 field test announced early 2009.

Mk2 field test commences Nov 2009

Mk2 field test update Jan 2010

Mk2 printed July 28th 2010

Community knew about Mk2 like nearly one and half years before it was released. Mk3? Announced 2 months before release, no testing done.

AND IT FUCKING SHOWED. KEK.

>>53380685
bo3 is best format tho...

>>53383350
nPE?

Hey guys I bought a unit of Bloodrunners and I intend to have fun with them.

>>53383985
Alexia has been there since the very beginning.

>>53388875
And arguably before that.