/WMG/ Warmachine and Hordes General

>>53385294
>>>53384886
>>>53385246 (You)
>>Mk3 was rushed ahead of schedule. It's pretty obvious. There was nearly a FULL YEAR between the announcement of the mk2 field test and actually getting to test the new rules.
>Mk2 field test announced early 2009.
>Mk2 field test commences Nov 2009
>Mk2 field test update Jan 2010
>Mk2 printed July 28th 2010
>Community knew about Mk2 like nearly one and half years before it was released. Mk3? Announced 2 months before release, no testing done.
>AND IT FUCKING SHOWED. KEK.

>>53385264
More like:
Everything sucks, the game is dying, for while you still can edition

>>53385308
Eh it will live. It got a massive knockdown sure, but PPs working on it. And if they really follow through on errata, then I think people will regain some confidence at least.

>>53385303
Here's the (You) that you clearly so desperately wanted you had to bring your shitpost over from the old thread.

>>53385385
Yeah, they made their tough check. Now it's their chance to do something exciting with the game to revitalize it. I don't think Grymkin or the SR17 mess are enough to do that, but I'm hopeful they have enough cool stuff around the corner like the Trencher and Northkin stuff.

>>53385409

Can't make tough checks when you ain't on your feet no more, son.

(Man, that was one of the worst changes in the new edition. People whining about tough were scrub tier.)

>>53385422
I too remember the forums circa 2012

>>53385399
Better to shitpost than suck Soles' cock like you.

>>53385422
Can't comment on that. half my fation is steady.

>>53385433
Truly there is no in-between. Well, whatever gives you some entertainment factor I suppose.

>>53385422
Mk2 Tough was a stupid fucking mechanic. I once lost a game because a Bane Thrall passed 7 back to back tough checks and I couldn't get it to stop contesting a zone to give me the scenario win. Nek minnit Gaspy2 feating his shit all over my caster.

>>53385555

And sometimes you roll snake eyes on a series of damage rolls and accomplish much the same thing. It's just your emotions frustrating you.

>>53385573

No, because I can mitigate the odds on my rolls by applying buffs or modifying the situation. Unless you had access to Grievous Wounds sometimes Tough would just fuck you.

In that scenario I just described I did everything possible to guarantee that win. I shot the Bane once to KD him, then had Molik move over to kill him. That's 6 auto hit, auto damage attacks.

>>53385308
Why is it dying?

>>53385639

The odds of that are like 1/729. You just got unlucky. It happens.

>>53385667
That's the point. Stupid situations occured because Tough was a stupid mechanic allowing them to happen.

>>53385725

Same thing as missing on double ones. People just got salty.

>>53385667

Alot of "bad luck scenarios" have really low odds of happening. Yes, you could roll alot of snake eyes in a row, that might happen.

The thing is when you have lots and lots of potential "bad luck scenarios" the cumulative odds of one happening jumps up the longer the game goes on. Adding the old Tough mechanics in as they did was a bad idea, especially when players could literally put down armies of practically nothing but tough (not just Trolls mind you).

The new Tough mechanics are much smarter from a game design perspective. You can still pass something stupid like 5, 8, or 10 tough checks you cumulatively make in a row, that hasn't changed. But it doesn't have the same game warping effects it did before. It's a more reliable speed bump rather than a potential brick wall which makes it less random and less frustrating for players.

>>53385801

>But it doesn't have the same game warping effects it did before.

Why? Steady is everywhere.

>>53385829

In a vacuum purely from design perspective, Tough isn't as mechanically broken as it was before.

Putting Steady on tough models like Cetrati was a completely separate act of retardation by PP. But I don't blame that on the mechanics of Tough.

>>53386083

It was never mechanically broken. Just because you had an NPE with it doesn't mean it's broken. Just because it relies on die rolls, like most things in WM, doesn't mean it's broken. You're making an assertion without evidence.

>>53386138
Mechanics that largely exist in a vacuum, are difficult to influence (entropic force and and grievous wounds not being widespread or easy to access for every faction), and lead to potential NPEs are broken mechanics. Adjusting them to remove the NPEs is the smart thing to do from a design perspective.

Don't get that confused with unbalanced, because broken and unbalanced mechanics are two separate things though they aren't mutually exclusive.

>>53387138
Continuing on you introduce other mechanics to allow for direct interplay, like every +2 STR over ARM the target gets -1 to the tough roll or something. You allow a player to make decisions and mitigate it.

But setting it up so the game is hurrhurrrhurr lets roll 4+/5+ to block infinite damage is a badly done mechanic. GW is over that way if you truly miss that sort of game mechanic.

>>53387138

The counterplay to tough is to use multiple lighter attacks rather than one heavy one. A troll has a 1/3 chance to survive being hit by a pow 20 hit, if you hit him with 2 pow 13s it'll be better.

Stealth was no better and that's been in the game since forever.

>>53387203

Stealth has a variety of counter buffs. Eyeless sight, True Sight, Flare, to name a few, or you can simply move a unit closer to completely negate the ability. You can't do this with Tough.

>>53387203
>The counterplay to tough is to use multiple lighter attacks rather than one heavy one. A troll has a 1/3 chance to survive being hit by a pow 20 hit, if you hit him with 2 pow 13s it'll be better.

Which works right up until somebody chains a bunch of tough rolls together, leading to an NPE. And that's the problem with it, there's no real counter to that it just is. If somebody rolls 7 Tough rolls in a row, there's not much you can do about it it just happens.

>>53387203
I work in the casino industry, I work around chance and probability every day.

Here's the thing with averages, they exist over a massive, and I mean massive, amount of data. You don't roll dice and get 1 through to 6 in any order in an even spread.

How chance actually works is you get big streaks of shit. This is how card counting works at a basic level, it helps you find the big streak of 10s and picture cards coming up in a shoe of cards so you can bet hard on the streak of 10s.

Dice results work just like that as well. You get streaks of results, and the fewer dice you use the more likely your results are to get influenced by this. When you roll a series of 1d6 you are likely at some point to get a series of 5+ results in a row, which leads to what everyone calls a negetive play experience because you'll get moments where this one faggot model just won't fucking die and it's important.

I remember reading an article on a math teacher who would give extra credit for any student who in their own time rolled a dice 10,000 times and recorded the results in order. He could tell which students cheated and which didn't purely on the basis that the ones that cheated arranged the results with a fairly even spread, they lacked big streaks of the same number in a row. For him that was a dead give away.

That's really the reason tough can feel like such fuckery sometimes.

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Gobber Warcaster, when?

>>53385659
As with any new edition of any game some players have left. Vocal idiots have decided that since people they know have left then everyone must be leaving. There's no sales evidence to support this, WM was in the same place on 2016 sales charts as it has been for years.

Does anyone have the Mk1 books? I'm looking for the fluff in Prime and Primal but the links in the text file are broken.

I bought a unit of Bloodrunners and you can't stop me fielding them!

>>53387658
Gobbers can't become warcasters.

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>>53388976
Not with that attitude they can't.

>>53389019
Word of god cucl

>>53388556
Well, technically I can. It will take at least 6 attacks though.

But let's talk Bloodrunners, as I'm painting mine right now. I plan on trying them with:

1) Hexeris2 for Ashen Veil, which is a massive issue for living models to get rid of.
2) Mordikaar, because screw your support staff.
3) Rasheth for the exact same reason.
4) Morghoul2 just to see if that Elite Cadre actually does something useful.

Now if only we had a theme that gave them ambush.

>>53389146
I'm the epic ADR memester from the last couple of threads, and got them mainly for use as a Specialist. They do their job brilliantly, the problem being that sometimes your opponent's list doesn't comply, so being able to bring them in after lists are chosen is ideal. They're going in Zaadesh2's specialists because he's far worse at dealing with infantry than Mordikaar. As far as ADR casters go they're probably best with Naaresh because Blur means that even sprays have a hard time getting rid of them at DEF17. Rasheth is pretty funny though.

>Carnivore
>PGMT Leadership
>Gang
>Back arc

Pseudo-MAT14 with precision lel.

Im a noob, can anyone point me to a good battlereport using mk3 starter set? or any general info/tactics on how to use units from this box effectively?

>>53389225
2 players starting set

>>53389213
Oh right, Specialists. That's where such a unit shines. I'd really like to know what the ADR will be like in two months, but PP have been keeping silent here.

>>53389243
Every faction has its 2 newest casters so we know that Zaadesh2 and Morghoul3 will be on there, likely meaning that Skorne will have a good ADR seasons purely because of Zaadesh2 and the removal of D&C1 allowing you to potentially play him every round. We can assume Mordikaar and Naaresh won't be repeated. I think PP try to put weaker casters on there because in theory specialists are strong, so I'd put my money on our next ADR being Zaadesh2, Morghoul3, Hexeris2, Zaal2.

>>53389225
Which starter set? Warmachine two player, Hordes two player, one of the single faction battlebox, or one of the all-in-one army boxes?

>>53389286
>Every faction has its 2 newest casters
Is that still going to be the case though? As far as we know we have no info on that. But if Zaadesh stays in there I'll consider it. If one of the Hexy's and a beast caster make it in I'll be happy.

Here's an idea. Grab the faggots from loremachine or wherever the forums community went, redditors and sign a well argued petition to get soles fired.

>>53389333
My personal dream ADR would be Zaadesh2, Rasheth, Makeda3, Xerxis1.

>>53389379
I'd say Makeda2, Morghoul2, Zaadesh2 and Hexeris2. But that's sure as hell not happening.

>>53389330
Warmachine mk3 Cryx vs Cygnar, im more intrested in Cygnar tho, so if you have Battlebox it would do too

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>>53388248
>There's no sales evidence to support this

Hi there. I have been playing off and on since Mk2 release. I dropped back in on these generals to see what the fuck was going on. Spent plenty of money into models - more than I'd like and more than I'd ever use. I haven't had a game of Warma in about 2 years and I'm going to be moving soon, so rather than move about $2000-3000 worth of assembled models, I figured I would try and at least sell a few armies.

Lol boy was I wrong.

Check Ebay "Completed Auctions" - and things that have actually sold. Look at comparables. There are A LOT of army lots up right now, and A LOT of good army lots, fully painted to decent standard, that have sold barely 50% of retail. I figured I would get 50-65%, it's looking closer to about 35%, which is kind of sad considering what's gone into them. I see GW stuff going for 80%.

People can cry apples and oranges, but it is very indicative of the health of a system. When Age of Sigmar dropped and the Fantasy players revolted, you had fire sale level prices on all Fantasy stuff. I picked up huge armies for close to 25-30% retail. Age of Sigmar did piss off some old dudes who will never be coming back, but with the last revamp it's attracted some new people to the game. Point being, Sigmar / Fantasy stuff is back at holding its value.

I'm actually worried if I should try to cash my Warmachine stuff out now or just wait until the company (hopefully) fixes the game. Demand is going to change with the health of the game. Just my 2 cents but any quick look at the number of firesale price armies on Ebay across all factions should tell you about how healthy things are, which is to say current players are leaving in droves. New people looking to pick up armies should check there if they're interested in that sort of thing.

>>53389745
>I see GW stuff going for 80%.
Because GW fans are Rabid and Grown in test tubes.

GW could sell minis made of pure cianide, and literal piles of dogshit, and people would take it and demand more. And talk about how excited they are to buy them.

Sigmar DESTROYED a core faction because GW didn't feel like supporting them. That's how shitty GW is. GWs fans are just RETARDED.

Gws stuff is also used for other game types, so there is that.

>>53389745
50% retail is pretty standard dude and being painted just lowers the value even more. Nobody wants to deal with striping your shitty paint job

>>53389286
>Every faction has its 2 newest casters
This is 100% not true. It is the case right now, but what ends up there in the future is up to Hungerford

>>53389019
>>53389019

Gobber Warlock 'jackmarshal on the otherhand is the right kind of impossible to actually happen.

>>53390817
>b-but mah stuff is p-pro p-p-painted

>>53389361
Great idea, we can even put it on change.org

>>53389745
>Hasn't played in 2 years
Yeah you're an authority on the matter

And why the fuck would you paint up Khador to look like Cygnar? No shit it'll never sell.

>>53390196
>bretocuck still mad
go snuggle with sobtards and a 20gauge

Lol, MM has their entire PP stock on clearance.

BUT THE GAME IS TOTALLY DOING FINE

>>53392811
>See post
>Go to buy shit on clearance
>Sold out in 5 minutes

Damnit ><

>>53392908
That's just how dead the game is apparently.

>>53393001
Yep, so dead everything I want for Ret sold out between opening the page and trying to add shit to my cart.

Sigh.

>>53393128
Just sold out of Marauders while I was pondering starting up Khador, too.

>>53392811
>just bought stuff online
FUCK

>>53392811
>One store is having a sale

The game is totes dead guys!

>>53393805
yeah rip

>>53393805
>>53393814
What a shame
It was a good game
What a rotten way to die

I think interest is waning currently until Lock & Load. We're not excited about the command books, because we've had the Journeyman v2 casters for a very long time, and the other 2-3 models per book (Retribution excluded) just haven't been that compelling. Combine this with a lack of fiction and story progression, and these books are just plain boring. Old players have no reason to purchase them, so there's less to talk about.

Theme books will get many people interested again, myself included. I am expecting a decent amount of fluff in each, and very curious to see just how much each theme book expands upon their subfaction. I have a suspicion that we're going to see a new round of battle engines, along with a warcaster, 1-2 solos, and an attachment or two for existing units. As for new units, I have no idea. Maybe we'll see 1-2 per faction? We know there aren't parallel releases anymore, but I just don't see how else the theme books could work.

>>53393892
Trencher CID just got announced on primecast.

>>53387479

>Stealth has a variety of counter buffs. Eyeless sight, True Sight, Flare, to name a few,

Yeah, so Grievous wounds etc. Did you just play a setup without a way to get around tough and then insist it should be removed from the game?

>>53394513
New primecast today!? Well thanks a fucking lot, podcast app, way to keep me updated!

>>53394513
Express team: Trollkin trenchers with big-ass sniper rifles.
Trencher longgunners: Tough, "better accuracy", "very different CA", CRA
Mechanics: Wrenches and carbines (same as commandos)
Patrol Dog: Trench Buddy rule: gets dug in if B2 with dug in. Trencher WA. Removes stealth in range, gives unit Dodge.
Character solo of some sort
Some solo gives unit Feign Death
New model type: Block House "bunker with guns". Structure. Shoots and makes more trenchers. Terrain with stats that can be destroyed.
Siege2: deployable turret that he can redeploy

Almost all trenchers have tough. Cycle starts late June. Theme force gives Rise to all units.

Black fleet theme later

>>53394919
>Express team: Trollkin trenchers with big-ass sniper rifles.
Here's hoping Trollbloods can steal these

>>53394513
So once every like 2 months they'll look at one warrior caste in one faction? It's been 4 months since the Skorne errata, what excuses do they have left now for the glacial pace of their balance updates?

>>53395388
Man, I knew someone would find a way to get mad about this post but I was hoping it would take more than two replies.

I think the game is in Purgatory as opposed to dead. It's dying but I don't think its abandoned or forgotten. People want it to live.
>>53394919
>New model type: Block House "bunker with guns". Structure. Shoots and makes more trenchers. Terrain with stats that can be destroyed.
Wow. Thats a pretty big change.

Both the recursion element and the structure element.

>>53395424
The anger was already there, you just provided an outlet.

>>53395493
I haven't decided how I feel about it yet. I'm not in love with terrain for points but I'm willing to see how the rules shake out.

>>53395605
Honestly, I'm with it if it at least makes the board more interesting.

I'm so sick of Goddam trees and Hills.

>>53395823
That's fair. Balancing them could be tricky but that's what CID is for. Curious if every faction will get one or if they'll be like beast packs and be more limited. Not sure how factions like Ret and Legion would make use of them.

>>53395889
>Not sure how factions like Ret and Legion would make use of them.

For most Warmachine Factions it's easy. Its a Bunker or a Holy Church of somekind.

Legion gets one of their Mega Pots that spawn beasts.

Really if PP introduced this rule earlier, there may have been more hype for the game in at least shaking things up.

>>53395956
And hordes could be beast pits or dugouts. I could see some sort of spine thrower emplacements or stone-guy-spawners for Skorne.

Probably a carbon copy bunker deal for Farrow.

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So how is this thing as far as Battle Engines go?

>>53396232
CID made it pretty neat. It spawns more dwarves and is almost a walking fortress.

>>53395889
Ret's mage hunters have dugout safehouses built for infiltration staging all over Western Immoren.

>>53396267

>It spawns more dwarves and is almost a walking fortress.

Now how does the first of those work in practice?

>>53396232
Fucking retarded if you just sit Assram behind it.

>>53396292
It can return D3 grunts to rhulic units within 10"

>>53396332

Also whilst kinda a loss, it was changed to be Girdes as opposed to providing cover. This was to allow the spawned Dworfs to huddle in front of it as opposed to hem having to spawn in the back to take advantage of it.

>>53396712
I meant to say it lost Roadblock and Gained Girded. It sucks somewhat but is much more cohesive design.

>>53392811
MM? I need to buy things for this dead game

>>53396322

How so?

>>53392811
Oh god, all these cheap Ret models
Time to decide if I really need Eyriss3, a second Chimera, and a third Griffon

>>53398040
It (At the moment) provides Cover as it has the Roadblock rule.

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Has the Wraith Engine gotten any better with the CID?

And what is considered the least useful or, dare I say, worse Battle Engine in the game?

>>53398501
>Has the Wraith Engine gotten any better with the CID?
Yeah

>And what is considered the least useful or, dare I say, worse Battle Engine in the game?

Whatever belongs to your faction is the worst and is total poo and crap.

>>53395526
Skorne already got a massive update, now it's Cygnars turn to get new stuff

>>53395823
Get more terrain?

>(Mordikaar 1) Void Seer Mordikaar [+29]
- Archidon [10]
- Archidon [10]
- Cyclops Raider [9]
- Despoiler [19]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Void Spirit [4]
Void Spirit [4]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [20]
>Specialists:
Basilisk Krea [7] (Deals with shooting)
Cyclops Shaman [8] - For when a valuable target REALLY needs to die
Extoller Soulward [3] - Cheap high POW gun versus warbeasts
Gremlin Swarm [3] - Soulward replacement vs Warmachine
Gremlin Swarm [3] - Even more Soulward replacement vs Warmachine
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] - More cheap souls if I have a spare 2 points
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4] - More infantry clear
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4] - Even more infantry clear

>(Zaadesh 2) Lord Tyrant Zaadesh [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Aradus Soldier [16]
- Archidon [10]
- Archidon [10]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
>Specialists
Basilisk Krea [7] - Deals with shooting
Bronzeback Titan [18] - Swaps in for Cetrati when they're a liability
Swamp Gobber Chef [1] - Granularity
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4] - You should know what this model does
Paingiver Bloodrunners [9] - Deals with light infantry spam such as Dawnguard Sentinels

Cont.

>>53398777
I have an upcoming Steamroller I intend to use this pairing at. Here's some examples from my relatively small local meta and what I'd do.

>vs Legion (Fyanna2/Thagrosh)
Zaadesh all the way, and it's pretty obvious to my opponent. The list is fairly set versus Thagrosh already as the Soldier's animus counters his feat. I'm pretty sure he brings out Fyanna with heavy spam due to this, in which case I don't need the Archidons or Vorkesh, so bring in the Krea to deal with his shooting, the Bronzeback as another heavy, and the Chef with my last point.

>vs Khador (Zerkova1/Vlad1)
Mordikaar due to the high volume of infantry in both lists seems a no-brainer. I expect him to bring out Zerkova because Mordikaar can't target her with Essence Blast. I take out an Archidon and the Chef, and bring in a Cyclops Shaman to ignore her cloud walls not to mention the list already has Snipe ready for him, and another Soulward so that I can ignore his clouds even more.

>vs Convergence (Axis/Iron Mother)
Zaadesh because I'm pretty sure he wants to use Axis most rounds and he stomped me last time I played due to huge fuckups on my part. I don't need the Cetrati here in the fucking LEAST or the Agonizer because he's trying to TEP me so hard. So I bring in a Bronzeback just to be another heavy, a Krea to minimize the TEP's effect on my beasts (A 16/18 Archidon won't die to one TEP, and threatens to kill it under feat next turn), then my last 5 points get a bit more awkward. A PGMT could clear a charge lane to a TEP of solos before Sprinting out, and my last point is a Chef.

How does it sound, /tg/? Am I onto something? Am I a raging faggot?

>>53398168
>Eyriss3

For realsies, what are you going to even attach her to? I feel like MHSF are less and less useful this edition, unless you're pairing them with Ossyan, and MHIs are pure ehhhhhhh.

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Oh wow, one of Strakhov 2's bodyguards is a girl.

Assault Kommando-chan is my new modelfu.

>>53399093
I had the mention of Spears of Scyrah +E3 under Ghyrrshyld in mind, but after considering it I'm not sure I know how to make adequate use of 4Shade in the first place.

Guess I'll just grab a Healer and Faction tokens.

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>>53399125
Assault-chan is always a cutie, no matter the setting.

>>53399168
Yeah he's a bit shit. I wish they put him up for CID.

>Hey guys I know you've been thinking about fixing Siege1
>But what if we just made Siege2 instead
>Then introduced a model type nobody wants because it's shit AND expensive
I imagine the meeting went like this.

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>>53399197
>tfw you will never be assaulted by her

why even play?

>>53399282

>>Then introduced a model type nobody wants because it's shit AND expensive

Which is?

>>53399340
Fortifications.

>>53399349
Probably no worse than colossals.

>>53399282
If you just ask on CID, and its well known enough, there will probably be a fix for Siege 1 As well?

Like PP wants ALL their stuff to sell dude.

Personally, I'm cool with terrain types.

>>53399349
>>53399513
Realistically how different can they be from existing models? Wouldn't it just be something like a stationary Battle Engine with a shit-ton of health boxes, or a more moderate amount and a rule like Impervious Flesh to reduce the damage it takes?

>>53392811
>get email on sale
>decide to add to my 2 player starter box
>add Satyxis raiders to cart
>immediately sold out

O-oh

>>53400606
Pretty much exactly this.

The Trencher one will also respawn trenchers and shoot stuff

>>53400619
#DEADGAME

>>53400437
>Like PP wants ALL their stuff to sell dude.

Are you serious? The game has as much unplayable trash as it did in Mk2 and they take so long between balance updates that they're never going to get around to fixing 10% of the game.

>>53400630
>>53400619
If the largest online retailer for minis put all of their X-Wing or Guild Ball shit on clearance I feel like you'd be a little more able to read between the lines.

This isn't their usual "shit, we need to clear these old 3-man man-o-war units" clearance. They put literally everything that is not a new release on clearance.

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>>53400606

>or a more moderate amount and a rule like Impervious Flesh to reduce the damage it takes?

Won't it likely take more damage against certain models?

Like aren't Marauders, Hammerfall Siege Crawlers, Wold Guardians and Siege Animantarax's all fortress wreckers in the lore?

>>53400728
They literally do a sale like this every year in the summer.

>>53400700
>Are you serious? The game has as much unplayable trash as it did in Mk2
If you don't admit the Trash is at least better then before we have no common ground.

And Would you rather PP try to fix everything all at once? Or actually take their fucking time so there is no trash?

Or do you ACTUALLY think that PP doesn't like money?

>>53400728
For sure, but at least we can call it an undead game. People want to buy and play it its just suffering with releases.

>>53400819
Usually it's a dozen or so boxes marked down across every franchise they sell.

Doing an outright 80% is actually pretty uncommon. I was surprised when I saw it and I've been using MM for 4 odd years so it's definitely not regular.

>>53400843
I ACTUALLY think that Soles' ridiculous ego is getting in the way of PP making money, between his ineptitude as lead dev, and his disdain for customers expecting him to release balanced shit.

Literally day 0 any experienced player saw how bad a ton of the Mk3 shit was. Here we are a year later and barely 10% of it has been touched and even then it's often not enough. So yeah - I would expect them to fix shit in a timely manner instead of bleeding players to other games.

"See, they're trying" is not good enough. It's been a fucking year and they show no signs of picking up the pace.

>>53401131

I agree with you about a lot of this, but serious question: how do we know its Soles' ego and not somebody else's?

>>53400843
The trash didn't get better. It's just different models are the trash now.

>>53401236
He's billed as the lead dev, and he's the one who was constantly defending his stupid bullshit from the preview insiders. He's also been exposed as outright lying between the "3 years playtesting" and the fact that he was "working 100% on Mk3" despite having a shitty art kickstarted primed and ready to go right after it came out.

>>53401270

>despite having a shitty art kickstarted primed and ready to go right after it came out.

Huh? I don't follow.

>he's the one who was constantly defending his stupid bullshit from the preview insiders.

Got any links to that? I'd be interested to read it.

>>53401131
>"See, they're trying" is not good enough. It's been a fucking year and they show no signs of picking up the pace.

But they are picking up the pace.

Skorne got improvements so have Cryx, and they nuked problems (To my Chargin).

Im a "Slow But Steady" guy.

>MM doing a cleareance
>CSI doing a sale
>Pricing policy

Anyone else think that instead of getting people to buy at a retail location, it will just get people to leave/avoid the game? Especially considering the stigmas attached to it?

Do you think Sorscha ever sits on Beast 09 and gets off to the vibrations of his engine?

>>53401434
while staring at a picture of shirtless Vlad.

>>53401401
I talked to my store owner about it and he said that aside from the initial rush of Mk3 he doesn't really sell any WMH anymore, outside of a small group of people buying new releases. And even that is slowing down.

Honestly the pricing policy, in reality, was just a price increase for 90% of players. I'm all for supporting the store you play at but most people don't ignore 30% off if all you offer is a table that you're going to give to MTG players when there's a conflict anyway.

So with an effective price increase, and Mk3 being a dud they're strangling the life out of the game. On top of that I think that there is going to be a new trend of people buying games that they're going to play at home. Most skirmish games are playable on a kitchen table and require way fewer minis. If anything the stigma isn't against buying online, it's the stigma of going to the store to play with the smelly nerds who pretty much live there.

Realistically your LGS only has space to offer. Games can be bought online. You don't hear about new games at the store like you did 15 years ago, you heard about them on forums and podcasts and /tg/. And outside of 40K and Warmahordes the space is not really a relevant factor anymore.

Guys who are 30+ are generally stuck in the old mindset, but younger gamers find the idea of an LGS kind of silly. Tabletop games aren't some niche product I need a specialty store anymore - I can get them shipped to my house without having to deal with any of the autistic neckbeards who spend all day at the store and feel entitled to because they spent 4 bucks on paint that day.

>>53401401
People joke about MM selling out because the game is so alive, but in reality these are people who have been waiting for shit to go on sale because they don't want to shell out MSRP at their store. So sales have been down at stores this whole time, MM gets their burst clearing out shit that clearly hasn't been selling, and the stores get no support.

So big fucking lol to PP's idiotic pricing policy. The endcap to its stupidity is ending the PG program and insinuating that stores will be able to run their own events - because instead of compensated volunteers, stores are going to run events for games that aren't even selling anyway.

>>53401304
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aeeth/apocrypha-the-art-of-jason-soles/updates

I'd love to dig in the forums for him getting pissy about getting called out for getting basic model information (including getting the same fact wrong across multiple articles) but I'm pretty sure the forums have now been scrubbed of this.

His defense was basically "Look we playtested a lot of versions and sometimes I have trouble keeping them straight" which is a hilarious admission that you shouldn't be trusted with balance responsibilities at all.

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>>53385264

Hey guys, what are some good Warmachine novels to read? Preferably following Protectorate of Menoth, I don't have a whole lot of knowledge or interest in other factions except maybe Convergence of Cyriss or Cryx.

>>53401559
>His defense was basically "Look we playtested a lot of versions and sometimes I have trouble keeping them straight" which is a hilarious admission that you shouldn't be trusted with balance responsibilities at all.

How? Do you think they playtest from memory? Man I can't remember all the versions of rules we went through for Grymkin and that was only 5 weeks.

>>53401483

>but younger gamers find the idea of an LGS kind of silly

I wouldn't discount all older guys. A buddy of mine who's like 37 thinks the idea of a flgs is fucking stupid, and instead there needs to be a sort of club house that has space and tables.

I could see it working, membership is monthly and gives you access to the building. Maybe a premium membership gives you access to free drinks and all that jazz. Kind of sort of bypassing the need to have a food and beverage license to sell. That might not work, idk, but it can be done.

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>>53400437
>Siege1 is bad
Tell that to my warjacks, infantry units, and stealth solos.

>>53401808
>there needs to be a sort of club house that has space and tables.

As a Britfag, this is exactly how we do it over here. Your typical LGS is really rare outside of our larger cities, so most gaming groups rent out town halls or rooms in community centers and meet up once a week on a specific night to play. Our group has a room with enough space for 5 tables set up at once, plus can keep several large boxes of proper 3D terrain, plastic gaming boards for the 40k crowd, and roll out mats for the Warmachine players in the attic along with a big box of dice, templates and tape measures in one of the cupboards. It works out really well, and it always surprised me that it isn't quite as common overseas.

>>53402007

Here in the U.S. a lot of times game clubs will rent out Vets halls or other public buildings, but most often playgroups are centered around game stores. The one I'm at is pretty solid, but it's not always the case... some of them are terrible.

>>53401808
This is how LGSs should work.

In practice most of them are populated by the owner and his buddies and they expect to stay in business by charging full MSRP for shit you can get online cheaper. Gee, wonder why they have trouble staying in business.

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>>53388556
My friend just painted his unit and plays with them

Hey Discount Games is also having a sale on Warmahordes stuff
REEEE WHY DIDN'T THIS HAPPEN LAST WEEK WHEN I PLACED AN ORDER
FUCK

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>>53401559
Nigga, If been working on a War game for two years and I can tell you I tell you he speaks truth.

>>53401684
>Tabletop games aren't some niche product I need a specialty store anymore - I can get them shipped to my house without having to deal with any of the autistic neckbeards who spend all day at the store and feel entitled to because they spent 4 bucks on paint that day.

Godless just came out

>>53401483
>>53401808
>>53402338

Here's the thing you guys don't get that LGS do for you. They give a game exposure, they provide a new source of players to help keep a community growing and healthy.

Our town went through a period of a few years where we didn't have an LGS that players could play it. We had players for various systems band together and form clubs and groups that cycled through different venues but over time they lost more players than they could replace. Getting complete strangers into your hobby when they don't know where you are or who you are, or aren't really interested in playing your game isn't easy when the only time they can meet you is after dark in some community hall or library meeting room.

Eventually one local gamer said "this is fucking shit," took his savings and opened a store. We quadrupled the local warmachine group alone over the first six months.

All it took was making some kind of acceptable meeting place where strangers could come in and the owner could funnel them into the various communities. "You're buying warmachine? Come in on Monday nights, people meet for Warmachine on Mondays. There's a tournament in two months as well if you're interested. Your son likes X-Wing as well? Bring him here on Thursday people will show him how to play then."

People talk about the whole anti-online store move by PP. They're short sighted idiots. This wasn't just a move by PP, this was an industry wide agreement coming from a meeting started mostly by board game companies. LGS's closing down was damaging sales because people couldn't find people to play with.

Simple as that. Games are more fun with people to play with. When it's harder to find people to play with, the games are less fun and people buy less of them.

>>53403043

uhh... what? Are you replying to the right person?

>>53403352
He was
He just accidentally had something highlighted when he replied

>>53403373

Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up.

>>53403043

Thanks, anon. I'm having a hell of a time finding anything else though. In the Fiction section of the PP website there are only 2 or 3 things listed and I'm not finding anything in the google machine, mind pointing me in the right direction?

>>53401808
>I could see it working
It IS working over here in the old world. FLGS are the exception around here.

>>53400733
I don't see what you're getting at.

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>>53389745
>There's no sales evidence to support this
What you are listing is NOT thorough sales evidence.


>>53390817
>>53392401
this

>>53388248
The fact that there's an 80% clearance sale at miniaturemarket is bit disturbing

>>53389745
>I haven't had a game of Warma in about 2 years
are you the same fag in the PP forums who says he hasnt played in years but acts like he knows everything?

>>53404614
I'm fairly certain there's multiple of those.

>>53404576
They're advertising "up to 80%", but most of the shit I looked at was 40%-50% off. It's a classic start-of-summer sale to get slow product moving and potentially snag people into future armybuilding, not a fucking PP liquidation crisis as some people in this thread might have you believe.

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>>53389361
>>53392333
What are you doing, Anonymous posters?

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>Grymkin have edgy and poorly structured rhymes written for every last one of their product descriptions
I'm mildly frustrated that this shit presumably made it through at least one cycle of product development. I imagine Soles is to blame for this meterless trash.

>>53404708

That fucking hair. I want to grab it and pull it out like a weed.

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>>53404812
It would be extremely painful.

>>53404899

For him.

So how are they going to do Mercenaries if there is not going to be a command book for them?

>>53405431
Same as with Skorne.

So let's assume the game does die eventually. Then what? There is nothing outside of 40K on the market that provides similar experience and wmh players generally tend to dislike 40K. They have nowhere to go unless they choose to play team skirmishes which isn't everybody's thing so they will be forced to stay.

>>53406115
Let me assure you that 40k does not provide a similar experience.

Maybe the new games by Steamforged or Wyrd could fill the vacuum. But that is under the assumption that the game is in fact going away. And that is an assumption only supported by the shitposts of angry nerds on the Internet.

>>53406115
Does not infinity exist?

>>53406133
Similar experience as in putting a heroic scale ARMY of fantasy soldiers on the table.

>>53406160
>There's miniatures on a board, so it must be basically the same thing right?

>>53406160
>infityshit
>spic game
>clown fiesta rng """" competitive""'' game
Hahha

Go roll d20s

>>53406170
There are dollies which have specialised roles and abilities, and some degree of limit on what cumulated power for a collection of said dollies can be brought to bear in a single tabletop experience.

>nah. They're completely different.

And faction identity is not a thing either.

>>53404804
The faction is pretty fun to play Anon. If nothing else the Arcana system is interesting.

It's just everything else. If it wasn't Soles pet faction then they'd be fine.

>>53403455
Skullislandx.com is their fiction imprint, all the novels are there.

>>53406508
Give me the gesltalt on memekyn both fluff and gameplay pros and cons cringe and good

>>53406621
Pros:
>arguably op
>have all the models they need to work, no waiting for a release to fix anything
>the edgy poems and all that viral marketing appeal to some, it's not that bad if you disregard the cringe
>unique playstyle
Cons:
>models are horrendously ugly for 2017 even by PP standards
>faction identity is all over the place
>there are only two army combinations you can make with them with slight variations

>>53400437
>just ask on CID

They'll only change things specifically related to the current CID cycle.

Like I'm fully expecting this Trencher CID to have a bunch of people asking for changes to warcasters because it'll effect Trenchers but the only things up for change will be Trencher models and the theme force.

It's like how people keep asking for the Throne Of Everblight to get MAT6 Murderous and nerf Rhyas's feat. Rhyas isn't up for change, the Throne is. They won't change unrelated models.

>>53406115
Wmh became what it is by luring over the cometitive tryhards from 40k. It will die only if another game manages to lure them over. So said game will be the "next thing".
Currently it is not the case. Malifaux actively tries to get competitive tryhards on it's side, we'll see how their big wargame will work out.

>>53406947
>Malifaux
How much strategy can there be in a game with 6 models on the table?

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>tfw when Trenchers have been showered with love for years
>tfw they are already competitive with Haley3 for cloud-bullshit
>tfw being an Assault Kuckmando

Why is my existence pain?

>>53406786
>They'll only change things specifically related to the current CID cycle.

Yeah and, if enough of an argument is made Im pretty sure they will add it. Siege 1 IS a Trencher.

>>53407028
Don't worry Anon. One Aks get their own book, they will the tits and stuff.

Are there even any other games at this scale? (Larger model count than skirmish but not as big as 40K)

>>53407143
Not that I know, which is why Warmahordes is unique to me and the Guildball and Infinity autists can fuck off. If I wanted to be lazy and play a skirmish game, there's better alternatives.

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>>53407141
There is hope, considering that there's a leak for UAs in the Command book. Also, AKs weren't IN the command book.

... Is it really possible for Khador to get 5 books? Or will they throw them in with the Man-O-Wars?

>>53407248
Everyone will have five or more books eventually. Pretty sure there's gonna be one theme book per faction per year. AKs could easily be the next one after MoW.

I'm curious about the inevitable Dawnguard book. Fuckers already have three casters, two character jacks, a melee unit, a shooting unit, and a cab unit. Wtf else can they add?

>>53407422
A character unit and Battle Engine maybe?

>>53404812
Somebody needs to buy the guy some appropriate hair products for that 'do. Nothing wrong with mohawks, they're fucking rad. Problem is, whatever Soles is putting in it, it always slumps over by the time he gets to work.

>>53407457
>A character unit
There's something I hadn't thought of. Until now every faction except Mercs has only gotten one character unit, wonder if that'll change.

>>53407121
PP have been pretty hardline that warcasters aren't open to change unless its a warcaster specific CID cycle.

>>53407422
>I'm curious about the inevitable Dawnguard book
> Wtf else can they add
A multi-wound medium base unit.

>>53407786
If enough people want it they would buckle.

Maybe Soles doesn't want money but PP does. If all their products sell that gives more trust to the retailers.

>>53407248
The AKs are awesome in my mind. Reall neat redesign of a German Shocktrooper.

There is OBVIOUS hope. And profit to be made.

>>53407786
>PP have been pretty hardline
about a lot of things until they suddenly aren't anymore. Bold declarations are their favorite past time.

>>53407851
>Bold declarations are their favorite past time.
Remember Colossals? Heh.

>>53407751
Cryx has two, unless you only mean 3 man units, though I don't remember Mercs having two of those.

>>53407826
No they wouldn't. People were telling them for 4 weeks that Vengence was too much for Piggybacks before they caved and they were actually in the CID.

Likewise people kept telling them they didn't want the Khador Gun Carriage to be a melee model but PP wouldn't budge on that so everyone just decided "whatever, if it HAS to be a melee model" and went along with it so they didn't fuck it up.

>>53408975
>No they wouldn't. People were telling them for 4 weeks that Vengence was too much for Piggybacks before they caved and they were actually in the CID.

"They won't buckle...Until they do"

You're correct about the Gun Carriage, but that still leaves it at a 50/50. PP are oddly pedantic about certain things but hopefully they won't be for fixing up Seige 1 (If he needs fixing)

You yourself proved that its still possible to sway them.

>>53406115
Actually there's Gates of Antares now and Runes of War.

>>53408472
>Cryx has two

We've got the Withershadow Combine, but that's the only one I can think of. What's the other?

>>53406947

>big war game will work out

I feel pretty certain that it won't.

>kickstarted with very little bonus incentive
>preassembled so hobbyists don't like it
>expensive so casuals don't like it
>they tried to appeal to some other wargame audience that exists outside of the one that plays malifaux. Just wat.exe

All this while malifaux suffers from model bloat and could really use a system clean up and streamlining to make it truly tourney accessible.

Seriously, you need like 20 cards in front of you nowadays to play (units+upgrades)

>>53409258
The pirates?

>>53409430
Oh yeah, Blackbane's Ghost Raiders. Good point.

>>53406998
Not as much strategy as in EXTREME COLOSSAL WRESTLING
2 MODELS
2 FURIOUS

...why the fuck do we need a "brand new game" in every single No Quarter? When will Hungerford stop dicking around with side projects, or at least run out of steam with this?

>>53410398
They sgpuld try to revive IKRPG haha

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>>53410398
Last week the "Warmachine guy" at my LGS was going nuts shilling his planned ECW league for the summer.

Meanwhile the store hasn't had a WarmaHordes tournament in nine months - ever since he took over responsibility for those events, of course

>>53406998
strategy does not come from model count. look at 40k.

>>53410408
IKRPG is literally waiting on Ios/Cryx stuff right now. Even Convergence got more support.

>>53398794
>I expect him to bring out Zerkova because Mordikaar can't target her with Essence Blast

You are aware that you absolutely can target her with Essence Blast, right?

Essence Blast is a spell when it targets the friendly model, it's simply a magic attack when it targets her.

>>53407751
Malcontents when?

>>53411312
Pretty sure it doesn't work that way. You can target something behind her though.

>>53404116

They may include a new rule that says certain units do extra damage to fortifications.

>>53411814
Isn't there already a rule for that
Or at least against huge models

>>53411158
IKRPG is dead.
I wanted to play it so much

>>53411814
>>53411834
Yeah, the Marauder has a rule for that
>Siege Weapon - This weapon gains an additional die to its damage rolls against huge-based models.

>>53411864
>I wanted to play it so much

Being dead does not suddenly make a game unplayable.

>>53411864
I'm in a group for it now. It's alright but it's not the best. One problem were running into is because the wmh uniiverse is built on conflict between factions. it's kind of hard to make a group that doesn't hate each other in game. we've had to houserule a lot of shit

>>53411834
>>53411876

I hope the other stuff like the Siege Animantarax and Wold Warde get it.

Assuming that wouldn't make those OP.

I think it would in the case of the Animantarax given that thing hits pretty hard.

>>53412090

>Wold Warde

Wold Guardian.

>>53412107
the wold guardian having it wouldn't mean shit. unless the guy deploys it on your side of the board. He's a speed 4 heavy, he'll never get there

>>53412152
>He's a speed 4 heavy
Well so is the Marauder.

Is this a game where i can get a satisfying game experience just by buying one of the 2 player starter boxes? I'm not really looking to get "in to it", but i wouldn't mind having it around as an alternative game for a couple of rounds once in a while, and the 2 player sets seem reasonably price, and the models look cool.

>>53412152
>>53412199

Don't Khador and Circle have shenanigans to speed that up?

>>53412208
Depends on what you mean by satisfying experience. If you want to play a normal game on a game night with it, you will need to expand off the box.

>>53412208
I'd say yes for some time. These boxes will get boring after a while. You can however extend slowly from there on if you wish to.

>>53412199
and? the marauder isn't going to 28 inches up the table by the time it's relevant, and if it is you've put so many eggs in that basket it might have been better to do something else.

>>53411968
>Not hating each other in game for banter

Anyone have a copy of the new nq?

>>53407248
Personally Im hoping we get an Assault Kovnik as they're the only winter guard group that doesnt have their own dedicated support badass well, that's not a caster.

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Is Butcher3 okay against the Haleys? I have troubles building a pairing for a tourney with 2 circle, 2 cygnar and 3 cryx players in it.

Irusk2 is definitely going to be my circle drop, though I'm still wondering how I should build him too.

>>53416072
As a circle player I don't want to see Harkevich on the other end of rhe table, hope that helps!

Opinions on Exemplar theme?

Free command models for 20 points, warjacks gain blessed on all weapons, +2 deployment inches

>>53416533
Points are points, but it's really uninspired.

>>53416533
Take Amon jack spam with it.

>>53416072
Irusk2? Walking a wall of infantry into Hellmouth?

>>53416684
>Menoth gets their first theme list
>It works well with Amon jack spam

>Menoth gets their second theme list
>It works well with Amon jack spam

>Menoth gets their third theme list
>It works well with Amon jack spam

I'm starting to get the distinct impression that PP hadn't anticipated jack spam when designing the game.

>>53416842
Irusk2's feat completely negates Wurmwood's and his infantry is tough

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So how is this for a Xekaar list?

>>53417480
Still suffers from the core problem of any Xekaar list, you're playing shitty Xekaar

kek

>>53417480
Needs more Rhinodons.
That's literally Xekaars shtick for fucked sake. He makes crappy cheap beasts hit as hard as bronzebacks.

>>53418230

>Needs more Rhinodons.

The fact that I should eve hear that means I've likely chose the wrong Warlock.

>>53417480
>>53418193
Xekaar has a few problems, yes, but I honestly think he's got something most other warlocks don't in faction, and that's the ability to both take an alpha and swing back pretty hard.

I think he benefits massively from the Desert Hydra, because it's animus forces gunlines into your feat turn, and his feat protects it super well, while hiding behind it protects him.

From there, he likes either gunline stuff himself, I think. Mortality is a hell of a drug for Reivers, for example, swinging your two man CRAs to RAT10, POW16 with a reroll. Pigs are another good choice for him, because their guns are very nice at POW16, and all of his defensive tech doesn't give a shit about them not being FF.

Another choice with him, I think, is WE&SJ, because Star Crossed + Feat means even he's pretty damn hard to kill, you just need the proper anti-gunline kit to work with him.

Chiron actually makes him kind of cute against Hordes list, believe it or not. Beast bricks that have to worry about frenzies can swing an entire game, especially at -4. If there were some other way to apply fury to beasts reliably, the tactic would be a lot better, but sadly there is not. Still, it can be quite powerful if done right.

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>>53406522

Thanks anon. Looks like Godless is literally the only book covering anything to do with Menoth though :(
Didn't see anything about Convergence either.

>>53419003
There's a couple Convergence books, but they're bad. Really bad.

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>>53419207

Oh :(
What are they called anyway? I'm short on stuff to read. I've read pretty much every 40k, Dresden Files, and World of Darkness book twice. Need more.

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How should I build upwards in this list?
I have enough points to afford another mauler and an earthborn, but I'm not sure if I should go that way.

>>53419630
drop stone down and take a gargossal?

>>53419566
Dark Convergence and Dogs of War: The Devil's Pay

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Seen the shit before with the last edition of Fantasy.

Game starts to stagnate, releases slow down, fewer people buy new shit. Ascended nerd-tier Grognards invested in the game for over 10 years spend more time bitching than playing or showing new people around.

Lack of new blood retards sales. Eventually (company) shakes up the rules or the setting or something in an attempt to breathe some kind of life back into the game.

Grognards who have been playing for a decade throw up arms at (company) shakeup and dump armies on the market to cash out. Market gets saturated with second-hand models, and even if new blood comes in on the wave of the shakeup, it will take a long time to clear the market of all those used armies and models. Money goes back to Grognards, not to the manufacturer trying to attract new blood.

Meanwhile the people who stuck in are trying to ride out the depression, hoping the company will right itself again. But as always, unless there's someone buying new models, new books, and new rules - shit's just gonna get worse, company's gonna go into deeper debt or go bankrupt trying to pay salaries to keep what little is left alive. Retailers cash out as popularity dwindles, and this just causes the whole reciprocating cycle to continue and new blood to be driven off and kept away as it becomes harder to find games or support.

Eventually one of two things happen. Either the fixes work and new blood saves the game with their money, or everything goes in the shitter and the firesales get even worse as the secondary market is fully flooded with people trying to cash out like rats fleeing a sinking ship. A few souls keep their models and wind up like the old dudes you see playing 8th or End Times Fantasy at that one table in the back for the rest of their days, or playing an obscure ruleset sourced online.

>>53421711
>Talking about 40k
This shit happens every game, every edition change.

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>>53421711
>drawing conclusions with a sample size of precisely 1
Also, if you weren't already implying it, Mk3 is the fix. They cut a massive slab of jank out of the game to simplify what they could, because casual simplicity is the new hotness in wargaming.

But they can't throw out their system and start up a shiny new "roll 4+ to win" system with three pages of core rules, because Warmachine is built on the idea of a robust competitive ruleset. Shitposting here about how the game is gonna die because PP doesn't know GW's Stockholm no Jutsu technique isn't going to change the actual course of Mk. 3's success.

>>53418530
>If there were some other way to apply fury to beasts reliably, the tactic would be a lot better
Agonizers and Beast Handlers can do it too you know. And where exactly can you put Chiron so that he can counterblast enemy heavies without your opponent being able to easily manipulate him into hitting your own heavies too?

>>53417480
(Xekaar 1) Beast Master Xekaar [+31]
- Agonizer [6]
- Chiron [19]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
- Aptimus Marketh [5]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Farrow Brigands (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]

>>53422592
Reliably is the key word there.

And it's called positioning. And you don't need to counterblast to do the trick I just talked about.

>>53422618
I just despise plays that work against one system but not the other. Skorne feels far more encumbered with that shit than other factions. I swear if we had someone simple and universally powerful like Stryker1 in faction we'd be unstoppable. None of this Naaresh +3STR/+3ARM bullshit that you're forced to only get half the effect of half the time, just a flat +5ARM on everything and a bunch of good spells.

>>53422797
I mean, +3STR/+3ARM means you hit super hard on your turn and then they're harder to kill in return.

Or you can take models like Sentries that can get the +3ARM when someone comes in and can Ret Strike to hit back with the STR buff still up.

And that play is mostly just gravy, it's not something you should consider part of his gameplan. Xekaar does plenty for Chiron, that's just a bonus tactic you can use.

>>53422809
It's a bonus tactic that'll probably never do anything. You're trying to put too much fury on a beast then drop its THR. But this just means your opponent will fully leech from it then take a threshold check off something relatively small in the back lines like a support beast. Xekaar's gameplan is simply to Mortality shit up and hope it drops, then have a turn of your opponent not being able to kill your heavies while you pray he survives.

>>53422809
>+3STR/+3ARM means you hit super hard on your turn
That assumes you're able to get in and don't need to pop the feat defensively. Xerxis1 suffers from the same problem.

>>53422904
Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

As I noted, Sentries can double dip even if you pop defensively, as can Bronzebacks.

>>53423144
Isn't Zaadesh just better though? You get to blow out systems and aspects in their activation, essentially wiping the model off the table.

>>53423194
Depends.

Naaresh plays much better into jack/beast spam because of Lamentations, which allows him to put a shitload of pressure on other jack casters. Forcing Hark or Amon, for example, to have to pay double for upkeeps/Mobility is a serious issue for them both. Naaresh is also far more mobile than Zaadesh, which lets him take advantage of random events or misplays by the opponent. Zaadesh weathers gunlines generally better, but Naaresh is also more difficult to kill in most other situations.

And when he can reliably get the alpha, as against heavy spam, Naaresh and his +1STR can be mighty useful, but that +3 ARM to maintain your advantage in attrition is massive. Defensive Strike is cute and can be very powerful, but a flat +3ARM is going to present more problems to a large majority of lists.

>>53423239
What if Bloodrunners had Inflict Pain?

>>53423627
Perhaps, but seems excessive.

I've honestly considered a max unit of paingivers with Xekaar just as an idea for anti-beast brick tech, but they just die too easy and do too little, especially since they struggle to hit anything but DEF10

>>53416971
Not if Hellmouth drags them away from Irusk2's Tough bubble.

>>53423654
I've considered bringing them as anti-infantry tech just in general with any caster with a MAT buff. Any living infantry they hit, they auto kill. Fuck your Dawnguard Sentinels.

>>53423679
And that'd be cute, except a PGMT does it cheaper and far, far better.

>>53423692
You get 3 Handlers for 1 PGMT, and they have additional utility.

>>53423695
PGMT can reliably kill 4 dudes a turn, and is far more likely to deliver himself and survive for another turn.

Plus, MAT5 vs MAT8

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>Gobbers Edition

About damn time!

>>53385264
Did this game die at anyone elses store?

>>53407143
Historicals... time to graduate I guess

>>53426591
Actually, we had it the other way 'round. The store that ran it the most died. But the shop I go to is gong to start running nights of it again. Considering the state of the game, I hope WAACFags will remain tame and not kill the potential for a new community.

Hey, I got these signed posters and a mk2 Menoth book from a charity auction. Anyone know the names? I'm trying to make rent and I'm looking to sell them off, I'd like to post the signatures with the listing.

http://imgur.com/a/0Qwzh

>>53427788
Going through the book credits might be your best chance of deciphering those.

And that's pretty cool, but they're probably not worth 'pay my rent' money

>>53426591
Yes but not because of PP, as apparently sales are at all time high. Instead the TO was bamboozling the store owners by getting rewards for one tournament from both store owners without telling the other and then selling the spare ones. When the owners they threw a shitfit and stopped supporting the game altogether.

>one of the game's main selling points is that you can pull off silly but awesome shenanigans, say gotcha and win the game
>completely remove it over an edition and errata
I fail to comprehend this.

>>53427981
It's things like this that give me the impression WMH is being killed by the largest cunts in their playerbase more rapidly than by any of PP's decisions.

>>53428049
They've been replaced by other shenanigans, that's all.

>>53428078
Why all the doom and gloom anyway? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but only warhammer beats wmh in its popularity and calling that dead is like wanting and mmo to topple wow's numbers.

>>53428094
Like what? Previously we had handholding, fastball specials, tactical use of deep water, area control through terror and scrapping your jack to block assasination. Now most games come down to forming a gunline and firing away or walking towards the enemy until he is in reach of an axe and then bonking him in an unispiring manner.

>>53428049
The main selling point is big smashy robots and monsters and a competitive, tight ruleset.

Gotchas are generally an undesired part of the game because they punish people for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of the enemy models.

>>53428187
Burden of knowledge is not the case in wmh where all information is open. Gotchas here were always about coming up with a unique and unexpected strategy.

>>53428251
Burden of knowledge applies whether it's freely available or not.

Is there any point in taking Aptimus Marketh?

>>53431986
Is there a point to free upkeeps and spells?

>>53432051

But is he worth it for that alone?

What if you have few infantry on the board to make use of his soul collecting abilities?

>>53431986
Like most things in Skorne now, it depends on your caster. He's an automatic inclusion with Rasheth as far as I'm concerned because you can sit out of threat range and be an annoying space restricting cunt, then can be an annoying channelling cunt. Other than that he's kinda shit. You can basically only cast offensive spells with him, and Skorne was never really a faction of offensive spells. Shit, we have entire casters he can't cast ANYTHING from like Mordikaar. The only casters I'd use him with are Rasheth for the above reason, and Morghoul1 because he lightens the load on his fury.

>>53433575
Very little. Marketh can spend up to all of his souls to upkeep that many spells. Despoiler is kinda redundant.

>>53433534

>>53433534

Is it worth it to pair Marketh up with Despoiler to improve spell economy?

>>53433534
Marketh is arguably a strong choice for Xekaar/Morghoul2 due to Mortality, and definitely Morghoul3 for Nights Reflection.

Seriously, putting cost 3s on a Fury 6 is retarded.

>>53433700
Why, that means you can cast two.

Putting a 4 on a Focus 6 however...

>>53434379
It means you cast one. Avg rolls put you at hitting Def 13, but not by much. You have a 41.66% chance of failing to hit Def 13. That is significant. That basically puts Def 14+ things largely outside of your range, and a not insignificant chance of failing to hit your target anyways. So realistically, you boost to hit. Cost 3s for a Foc/Fury 6 are more equivalent to a Cost 4 unless they have some other means to cast at a higher Magic Ability or access to additional dice/etc. that will fudge the roll.

>>53435918
Damn, not shirtless Thyron yet again.

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>>53435918

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>>53435918
>>53436602

>>53436504
Thyron a worst elf.
Shirtless Goreshade is a better deal.

>>53436504
No one really wants a "male pin up" except SJW faggots trying to impress a 250 lb pink haired girl they saw at the shop by standing up for feminism in a fucking toy soldiers game.

>>53437079
Goreshade's saggy old man tits would be a hilarious exception.

>>53437811
You should go read the threads in the Facebook groups.

>>53437811
>No one really wants a "male pin up" except SJW faggots trying to impress a 250 lb pink haired girl they saw at the shop by standing up for feminism in a fucking toy soldiers game.

Well, that and gay guys. Or straight girls.

>>53437818
No thanks, the doctors told me I'm in remission.

>>53437811
>No one really wants a "male pin up" except SJW faggots trying to impress a 250 lb pink haired girl they saw at the shop by standing up for feminism in a fucking toy soldiers game.
I do. Not even gay, but I think it would be neat to have one.

>>53438426
>Not even gay

got some bad news for you, anon.

>>53437811
>No one really wants a "male pin up"
I don't think that's true. Most people who care about the models want good looking interesting models. You can do that with a male pin up or something similar. See kingdom death of you want some examples

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I got into WarmaHordes because I thought the Scyir looked fucking cool. Now that I have an actual grasp of the game, I really want to get the poor guy off my shelf.

Is Vyros2 the best caster to lead up a Sentinel/Invictor/Scyir with a marshaled myrm list, or would it fall flat with his Synergy-centric toolkit?

>>53435918
>>53436602
>>53436615
Lemme smash, Reinholdt.

>people bitch on the CID forums that the Space Cricket is the strongest BE
>strongest
>Dwarf Shitter
>Dildo
>VoJ
>Walking Discoball

>>53439108
Just have him Marshal a Hydra in any list and laugh as you can effectively fuel it with Focus and still beat something I to the ground

>>53428113
>Why all the doom and gloom anyway?

>GW hires a half-decent media team to fix their abysmal reputation
>Has a new edition of 40k in the works, want to lure as many of their dispossessed ex-players back as possible
>Anti-Warmahordes shilling immediately skyrockets

Really activates my almonds.

>>53439528
>>Has a new edition of 40k in the works, want to lure as many of their dispossessed ex-players back as possible
Well, it's not working. Their rules get shittier with every leak.

>>53439108
Under Elara2 he can shoot a Griffon like 16" downrange with free charges so it can use the +2 damage jack marshal order thing. 18" with Lanyssa. Sphinx does the same thing, just exchange range for hitting power.

>>53437811
>old mab tits
t. Jelly little oldie

Goreshade has perfect abs

>>53439769
WMH 3rd ed may suck, but 40k sucks even more.

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>>53439476
But anon, it shoots TWICE
And it can BOOST ITS DAMAGE
That sheer power is completely unprecedented in the history of games

>>53437811
>No one really wants a "male pin up" except SJW faggots

Nigga, I wouldn't mind one.

These pin-ups aren't legitimately sexy, they're funny. To use that other anon's example, shirtless Thyron posing with his sword would be funny, and fluff appropriate, as House Ellowuyr swordsmen have "you can look but you can't touch" status due to their vows.

If you legit get randy over these pin-ups, rather than seeing them as something silly and fun, you've got more to worry about than SJWs invading your game.

>>53438463
I just hate raceswap. I would've liked a female gobber.

>>53443671
Did the alligator one trigger you too?

>>53439769
Dude, the fuck? They are now finally getting decent rules for abstracted combat. 8thed is going to be best 40k has been in decades.

I'm sure they'll fuck it up eventually, but for now, shit is great

>>53443957
If by trigger you mean bother, then yes.

The base and the human pose make it too tall. Female gatorman could've been cool to have since jaga jaga was the only one also it's not funny nor sexy.

>>53439476
>Walking Discoball

Which one was that again? The Circle one?

>>53444330
>They are now finally getting decent rules for abstracted combat.

I don't know about that. I like a lot of what I'm seeing, but the fact that rolling to hit seems to basically always be 3+ or 4+ for normals and 2+ for heroes, with no accounting for how skilled or dodgy the enemy is supposed to be, is a huge turn-off.

I really don't like the idea of an Avatar of Khaine and a Space Marine Captain, for example, both hitting each other on a 2+. It doesn't make sense.

>>53444684
Agile stuff like genestealers get invulnerable saves. Also wounds are inflated so better fighter still gets more licks in.

>>53445342
>Also wounds are inflated so better fighter still gets more licks in.

Yeah, that's not gonna be a whole lot of fun. Trying to track a large number of models all with 10-30 wounds at once without stat cards to note things down on?

I've been dithering between Warmachine and 40k for the last couple of years, splitting my time between the two, and this whole farce as finally pushed me firmly over into PP's territory. GW's made it very clear that I'm just not their target audience any more.

>>53446063
Stop being a bitch and use dice? Shit ain't hard also what the fuck is using thirty hp?

>>53446063
Yeah, I've been pretty solidly WMH since the end of 6th ed 40k, had no interest in 7th, and was briefly interested in 8th until the rules previews left me totally flat on it.

Fortunately WMH is bigger in my meta anyway.

>>53446336
Basic bitch grey knights probably

>>53446336
>Stop being a bitch and use dice?

Yeah, using dice to mark out damage for the 10+ vehicles my Dark Eldar typically bring is going to be so much fun, especially when they start getting accidentally left behind after the model moves, or grabbed and rolled, or knocked over, or whatever.

>>53446568
Why would your opponent be incompetent and stupid to lightly wound all your vehicles at the same time, instead of killing them off?

>>53446621
Because Dark Eldar vehicles are fast enough that they can typically position themselves in places where only one or two units can shoot at them, and with a 3+ Jink save are generally able to evade the worst of enemy shooting. So they get slowly whittled down by small arms fire instead of popped by heavy weapons.

>>53446678
I don't think jink is in the new edition

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>>53444330
>"5knight5plane lmao" is still a valid army
>best 40k in decades
Nah m8

>>53447769
And everything can kill the knights so you aren't autolosing