/pfg/ Pathfinder General

>>53141672
fetish shitter leave

>>53141690
Really?

Three possible characters for Serpent's Skull:

>Serial Killer Vigilante | Vivisectionist Alchemist, tells others he signed on to forget about his since deceased wife but is in fact running from persecution for a grisley string of politically motivated murders in Maginmar against the Council of Ushers. Signed on as the expedition's physician.

>Scared Witch Doctor | Warden Ranger field guide. Signed on at the edge of the Mugwani expanse to go looking for a brother deeper into the enormous jungles.

>Cloistered Cleric | Preacher Inquisitor, signed up in Taldor to bring the good word to the people of the Mugwani expanse. He's the ship's missionary.

Which should I go for? The doctor, the guide, or the missionary?

>>53141719
Doctor is most interesting, but missionary would probably be more fun to actually play.

>>53141719
>Cloistered Cleric
Why not Evangelist? I'm not Cleric archetype savvy but it fits the flavor better.

It was an idea I had but I already chose my app.

>>53141750
Evangelist would also work.

>>53141719
>literally 0 lewd potential
Give up, you're not getting in.

>>53141765
The doctor has lewd potential. Who knows what deviant activities the natives are into?

If nothing else, he could offer play-by-play when the others get captured by lizardfolk tribesman, describing in great detail what horrid fates await them.

Non

Consensual

Cuddling

>>53141765
>>53141757
>>53141719
Go with Evangelist Cleric|Preacher Inquisitor, and make him sexually obsessed with nubile native girls and/or boys.

Problem solved..

>>53141793
>not being chaste

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Who's your favorite applicant so far? mine's Awinita The Ox

>>53141807
It's far more compelling a story for the man to try his very best to be chaste in the face of overwhelming, all-consuming lusts.

What is your favorite 1pp class(es) in Pathfinder? My personal favorites is the Magus and Paladin.

https://strawpoll.com/g6f6fer

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>>53141929
>https://strawpoll.com/g6f6fer
Gunslinger, by far.

I don't care if it's shit mechanically, I've always loved firearms and being able to go the next step with my spaghetti western inspired characters.

>>53141822
Shit taste, shit app.

>>53141822
>same filename as when you showed it around the discord
Subtle self-shill is subtle.

>>53142090

Its also the same filename it had in the filename threads too.

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>>53141822

i like the original art better than the recolor.

>>53141672
What are some good short modules, something that would take like, 4-5 sessions?

>>53142222
If I'm not mistaken, modules have gotten longer since Dragon Demand a couple of years ago, and now last about 6-8 sessions. You'll have to look at the older ones: I find the Midnight Mirror pretty neat.

Is Kuzad Graves a good name for a necromancer wizard?

>>53142493
Is Johnny Sword a good name for a fighter?

I'm very new to pathfinder and /tg/ in general, I'm trying to make a decent dervish of dawn character but I'm having questions on the mechanics.

Let's say I have a scimitar in my main hand and nothing in my offhand, can I strike with it if I take improved unarmed feat? Do I get the dex bonus from Dervish Dance on it? Do I get the maluses from TWF?

>>53142703

>malus

Learn English and KYS

>>53142703
Are you asking if you can punch someone while holding a weapon in the other hand? Yes but why would you do it?

>>53142726
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/malus#English
Fuck off and die.

>>53142726
http://latindictionary.wikidot.com/adjective:malus
Go and delete bonus from your dictionary too while you are at it

>>53142726
Are you retarded

>>53142689
It's not bad

>>53142727
I tried googling and some people wrote that the dervish dance bonus from dex also works on unarmed strikes and the double inspire courage works too so I thought why not.

>>53142689
Why not swordy mcswordface?

>>53141672
They are really fun mounted characters. It seems any time a Medium loser would be granted a noncombatant horse, Small characters actually get a selection of cool shit like wolves and geckos, and they can take them into dungeons.

>>53142782
no GM will allow that RAW an interpretation. the intent is very clear.

>>53142927
I'd probably allow it to be honest
I mean come the fuck on who cares it's unarmed

>>53142934
because weapon finesse already covers unarmed strikes

>>53142956
I'm not him I'm just saying if he wants to just start punching crap why not

>>53142956
>weapon finesse
>he doesn't use Feat Tax
made me think

>>53141929
Summoner because one of the only PF classes that doesn't have some form of 3.5 equivalent and building your own pet with a point buy system is cool. Too bad it's overpowered.

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Carrion Crown is an amazing adventure path, too bad players will get minus trust in 3 hours of play. Like seriously, is it possible to run this for people who don't role play?

>>53142976
Weapon Finesse isn't a feat tax, it's a desirable benefit taken for its own sake. Same with Power Attack. It's like "trans-racial" people trying to hop on the pity train, you don't know shit about the Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise, IUS and Dodge life you fucking fraud.

How do you make Lucky Ted?

>>53143186
>Power Attack isn't a feat tax
All of those being feat taxes don't make Power Attack and Finesse not feat taxes you dumb cunt

>>53142726
This is latin not English you done fucked up

How I get into the Discord room?

>>53143319
By fucking Broodie's ass

>>53143319
https://discord.gg/pCzjP

>>53143340
And how I fuck his ass?

>>53143352
With your dingdong.

>>53143319
Why do you want in the discord? Its pretty terrible. Are you just consuming the salt from whenever Vult opens his mouth?

>>53143667
He's probably Based Magyar Refugee, I never seen him before
He's also a retard with broken English apparent

Whats up with the serpent skull apps? Is it some sort of joke game or something? Because only maybe 1~2 apps seem like they werent written as a joke.

kind of reminds me of that doctor evil app from HV

>>53143800

I'm waiting for the cute Chelaxian girls who got some of the jungle fever.

What was that one book that had all those rituals and spirits such as dancing kobold, rapist jaguar, and non-allegorical jesus?

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> Pssshhh... Nothin' personnel, kid...

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ljsh?Class-Preview-The-Operative

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>>53143945

>Human
>MALE

Question for anyone who has GM'd the Emerald Spire. Would Psionics/Path of War be too powerful for this module?

>>53143945

Highlights to take from Operative
>3/4 BAB, poor/good/good Fort/Ref/Will
>Light Armor, basic weapons, small arms, sniper weapon proficiency
>Trick Attack is Sneak Attack that can be done regardless of distance or combat situation, requires an opposed skill check roll
>Operatives get a Cloaking Device, activation is a Move Action and gives +10 Stealth while standing still. Gives no bonus while moving, but allows you to make Stealth Checks even while being observed

>>53143979
It should be okay, but it also depends how many players are in your game. Also be very wary of the first floor of the dungeon, with all the goblins. The first room is a player killer straight-up.

>>53144012
I read through the first few levels and noted that.

The party is 4, two are most likely going to be URogue and Inquisitor, the last two are asking about Psionics and path of war.

>>53143945

Only one issue i have with this.

TIE YOUR DAMN SHOES YOU MORON!

>>53144091
It should be okay then, remember you can always add a little beef to your encounters if they start to eclipse combat.

>>53143910
Anyone? There was a huge stink about it here when it was released?

>>53143945
>>53143993
>It's just a space rogue
>except they wised the fuck up and have it a good will save
>they also sounds like they made sneaks less shit and have it an actual way to stealth properly

WOW PAIZO WHY COULDN'T YOU DO THAT WITH UNCHAINED ROGUE YOU COCKSUCKING'S FAGGOTS

Is cooke still in charge of Starfinder? Doesn't sound like it because mages seem to not be amazing by default anymore.

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>>53141822

The way its written it sound like she's trying to make an excuse for why she wants to eat strong things, rather than that whole honor the clan buisness.

And i like that.

>>53144250
>>53143993

Anon forgot to mention two other qualities the Operative has,
>Operative's Edge is a class ability that gives bonuses to skill checks as well as Initiative, it will either be passive or something you only get so many of per day (encounter? Could be tied to the Stamina system.)
>Receives a special bonus at level 7 for a skill in which they have the Skill Focus feat

>>53144325

Sounds like Investigator's inspiration.

>>53144325

The wording implies it's going to be passive, meaning eventually your Operative is going to be really, absurdly good at their job.

I had been lurking for a while and from what I could gather seens people is obsessed with making the most optimal or broken character possible and that nobody cares on the themes nor plot of a campaign.
This almost feels like free form Donut Steel F-list shit.

>>53144325
>>53144607

I'm willing to bet absurdly petty amounts of cash that Operative's Edge will be an ability with uses per day, but they can be regained during a short 10 minute rest.

The theme of Starfinder seems to be big dumb action flick, dividing PC health into Stamina (representing your "luck" in not getting hit) and Health (representing you, uhh, health, and needs medical attention) is evidence enough of that.

>>53144698
Either you haven't been lurking for as long as you think or you're shit at information gathering.

How many games are you basing this off?

>>53144698
>and that nobody cares on the themes nor plot of a campaign.

Can you provide examples of characters that have successfully gotten into games without being tied to the plot or theme of the campaign?

>>53144698
Thats because those people don't get in games and therefor spend more time posting about builds

>>53144753
What do you expect from NEETS?
That they be mental healthy functional individuals even with their hobbies?

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Is anyone else having trouble with mega right now? I can't access the trove.

>>53144991
Trove is dead, babe.

>>53144698
>no examples
>no sauce
>not even a smug anime girl

What a shitty b8

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>>53145017
Is it really?

>>53144991
Why you keep fighting it?
You will never be chosen for a game and soon Paizo will collapse when Starfinder or the MMORPG, you are wasting your time downloading those pdfs trying to figure out the next meme character from which you will get that sweet rush of self-realization that should bring sense to a meaningless existence.

>>53145061
I like pathfinder and my gamegroup isn't nearly as cynical, hate-filled, and optimized as most of the people here.

>>53144250
Because old fat greasy neckbeards freak out when a rogue uses improved evasion against a fireball

>muh no place to dodge too unavoidable damage no save

So far it seems people prefer the Starfinder classes to Pathfinder's.

Now I'm just worried about the Solarion and Technomancer. You guys think they'll make them strong enough that everyone will want a dip I to their cookie jar?

>>53145299
In general, pazio has done a really good job with designing classes that aren't 9th level casters and that don't have to follow the 3.5 shit-stain defaults.

>>53143910
>>53144248
Anyone?

>>53145334
>swashbuckler
>cavalier
>Gunslinger
>Kineticist

>>53145368
Akashic bullshit by Nightmarescares Hacks.

>>53145368

It was a big hubbub around here but we forgot about it because, surprise surprise, it was only useful for memes.

>>53145374
>Cavalier, Gunslinger
These two were from WAY earlier in Pathfinder's history, when Paizo was trying to break off from 3.5e designs. Same deal with the Magus. They're in need of a good unchaining

>Kineticist/Swashbuckler
I concede here, these two are poorly designed at best, though I'd rather play a kineticist over a swashbuckler.

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What sort of characters do you want to see apply for Serpent's Skull?

>>53145488
Jacknife Trousersnake, the dwarf that heals by snakes biting his dick.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471110-The-Trouserfang-Dwarf

>>53145488
Why would I care about a game I will not join nor even will apply to? Why would anybody care about it beyond just applying and then having a good old fashioned circle jerk with the other applicants!?

>>53143910
>>53145384
No, it was the other book by Augunas published by Radiance House.
I believe it was Grimoire of Lost Souls

>>53145524
I miss Incarnum.

>>53145452
>Paizo will never release Pathfinder Unchained Book 2

Fucking end my life

>>53145374
>3 of the 20 classes were shit
what is your point?

>kineticist
DON'T START WITH ME

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>>53145583
We all do anon. We all do

>>53145605
What other changes do you want them to add?

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>>53145605
Okay.

>>53145583
What's that anon, you want another samey vancian caster? Coming right up!

>>53145605
>tfw this will never happen, come with a boatload of unchained classes, and punish all the homebrewers who had the idiotic idea to name all their class fixes [Class] Unchained for no good reason

>>53145639
>More uses for stamina, expansions upon the old unchained classes
>Unchained Magus at bare minimum
>A look back at hybrid classes, with a patch for the shitty 1-5 of investigator and a redux of the Martial Artist for Brawler
>The chucklefucks left URogue half finished, it still only has one good save for fucks sake
>Unchained Samurai and Ninja, the 3pp version if the latter hurts to look at

>>53145688
You sound bitter, anon. Did something happen? Do you wanna taco 'bout it?

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>>53141672
Booo, go back to posting anime and furry

>>53141954
Any splat material for lever actions and other western guns?

>>53145784
>The chucklefucks left URogue half finished, it still only has one good save for fucks sake
It also is super fucking lethal now. Full attack sneak attack doesn't leave anything alive.

High risk high reward works for me I'll say.

>>53145784
What about fixes for Unchained Monk?

Blargh. I just finally changed my application from gnome to kobold, but it's so hard finding all the options I want on the sheet. I guess that's mostly just details for the moment, but I've been wracking my brain on it for days now. I think I need to take a break.

>>53145804
Sneak Attacks were always retardedly lethal if you could somehow manage to full attack with them active. Rogue is still shit and Alchemists still do it better.

>>53145834
Aside from MADness, what even is there to fix with UMonk?

>ywn fall asleep while being told comfy bedtime stories about heroes past
Literally why am I still here?

I have an idea for a campaign I'm going to run:

Pathfinder rules.

The whole known world is flat. The "sun" is literally a giant orb of light ~500 miles up in the sky. The further away you get from it the darker it gets, but it is always visible. Further into the darkness are where the monsters are. There is some kind of big kingdom right under the sun, and around the whole "people live here" area is arranged a bit like a wheel. Food can only be grown near the sun so civilization basically doesn't exist further out.

I have no idea how this works with teleporting, different planes, etc.

Couple of things about playing in this world: Direction is easy to know, and "go this way to safety" is simple. The limited range of darkvision adds a tactical level to high level far from the sun combat, meaning that 300+foot standoff battles between wizards isn't a thing that far out.
What do you think?

>>53145784
>USamurai and UNinja
That could work as patches for the URogue and a UCavalier. No need to rewrite everything, just add notes considering how similar they are.

>>53145884
Overly reliant on ki pool, with no way to replenish it in a timely manner. Maybe give all UMonks something like the Hungry Ghost Monk's ki draining ability.

>>53145803
Says he posting anime

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>>53145974

>>53145960
I was about to say Ki Leech should cover that, but that doesn't come online until 10th level and requires a standard action to use, so damn.

>>53145803

I kinda liked this comic, though its not my normal cup of tea. Bellies like that should be protected and not abused.

>>53146040
Yeah, so UMonk needs a bit of a change there. Maybe also give it a better will save, because why the fuck does it have a Fighter-tier will save?

Is PF fun to play if you don't care about optimization or anything? I haven't really tried it but I just want to run something fun for people who aren't too into RPGs and are attached to the idea of "D&D".
Considering trying something new since I rarely play actual D&D, and introducing them to Pathfinder or FantasyCraft.

>>53146223

Its pretty alright.

>>53146223
>Is PF fun to play if you don't care about optimization or anything?

I'd say it's enjoyable, but most of the real fun comes from interacting with the other players and the DM... Which is something you can get in almost every other tabletop out there.

>>53146223
>Is PF fun to play if you don't care about optimization or anything?
As long as everyone in the party is on the same page

>>53145488
Pale, busty Chelaxian woman that gets real comfy with the natives.

>>53146150
Make the hungry ghost leech ability into a 6th level Ki Power and you're probably good to go.

>Fighter-tier Will Save
WISDOM BASED CLASS REEE except when it's not, like Scaled Fist/Invested Regent

>>53146223

It's a bit of a messy system, especially for people who aren't very experienced with RPGs. You might have better luck with 4e or 5e if you guys are just starting out.

Still, you can have a lot of fun with PF, and it's certainly got a lot of freedom in character design, which a lot of people like. New players tend to get pretty excited when they realize that. While optimization can lead to some fairly glaring discrepancies, low-optimization play is pretty common, and works well enough to be enjoyable.

>>53146266
I only agree with this because color contrast is real fucking hot.

>>53146299
Sounds good. What about Brawler, does that need fixing? I mean, aside from awesome blow being useless.

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>>53143945

>>53146337
That's meant for tan lines, not interracial!

>>53145960
>ki pool
eh...That's fine. It can do a lot of really good things with that KI pool, and not being able to do a few of them in the third fight of the day isn't really a problem.

>>53146150
Because it is already one of the most powerful martial classes. We are talking pouncing barbarian tier damage on a dimension door ranged pounce charge.

IF anything, it needs a few nerfs.

>>53146457
It works for both, anon! BOTH!

Besides, if she's pale than she's going to be getting plenty of tan lines anyway, lots of sun down south!

has anyone played DHB's classes/races? How are they?

>>53146468
>UnMonk of MADness town
>Needing nerfs

Ahahaha no, are you fucking high?

>>53141719
I have woken up. I am thinking about this ability score spread for the serial killer:
8/18/14/14/12/14
Or
10/18/14/14/10/14

For carrying capacity worries I planned on having a man servant for heavy lifting.

>>53146468
>Umonk
>Finally a T3 Monk
>needing a nerf
Sasuga buildposter.

>>53146535
UMonk only needs Dex/Con/Wis

Literally less MAD than base ranger, fighter, and bard if they ever want to pick up a bow.

>>53146535
>mad
>meemes
>no builds
>no math
expected

>>53146560
The things that make it T3 would not be touched by what I'm talking about. I also don't think it needs an actual nerf, but it really doesn't need a buff.

>>53146558
I didn't actually ask my question. Which should I go for? Since he is a Dex mutagen character his Wis goes down when he mutates.

Is there a discovery that reduces mutagen penalties?

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Is there any way to get hooves without playing a Ragebred Skinwalker?

>>53146572
>only needs Dex/Con/Wis

If you play with 3pp that gives easy access to D2D maybe

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>>53146457
>Journeying into darkest Not!Africa
>Not expecting interracial

I mean, you could run into some Sargavan Colonials sure, but once you get in there it's going to be swarthy as far as the eye can see.

>>53146612
Tieflings get hooves, and Agathion-Blooded Aasimar can be easily fluffed as having hooves too.

Hoo boy, BP is going to start spamming "OMG TOLDS!!!!!!1!" again until he gets banned for another 3 days. Brace yourselves lads and remember to not feed him

>>53146612
Do you mean hooves flavorwise, or hooves as in natural weapons?

>>53146626

I meant the hooves natural attack.

Speaking of Monks, would this old Dragon magazine feat be allowed?

Kung Fu Genius
Prerequisite: INT 13, Must be gained at or before the first level of the monk class is taken.

Benefit: You use your Intelligence modifier rather than Wisdom modifier for all monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom.

>>53146633

Natural weapons.

>>53146625
It's literally a +1 weapon enchantment, put it on an amulet.

>>53146626
>I mean, you could run into some Sargavan Colonials sure, but once you get in there it's going to be swarthy as far as the eye can see.
>laying with filthy magic savages
Disgusting m8

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>>53146643
>Dragon Magazine
>Proto-Paizo

>>53146639
>>53146646
If 3pp is on the table, Decataur.
Advanced Race Guide can, if custom races are on the table, get you damn near any form of natural attack.

Or yeah, shapeshift your shit up.

>>53146643
Ask your GM, retard.
And if your GM is here, make it obvious who you're asking.

>>53146648
And before you say 'but what if muh GM doesn't let me buy it'. Literally every martial stops working if deprived of gear so this isn't an argument. The assumption is you can get a hold of gear.

>>53144736
Arahnha or whatever the hell the spider thing is.

>>53146590
>says it needs a nerf
>when asked if he's high, shits himself and demands a build and spreadsheet of math
>in the same post, says that it doesn't need a nerf

:thinking:

>>53141672
I once worked up a tiny race with a Strength bonus with the race builder, basically forge sprites that coexisted with dwarven communities, building homes in their forges and helping out with the smithing in return for the living space. The one I played was a DSP Myrmidon Fighter with a lot of heavy-hitting maneuvers and a longhammer (so he could actually hit things 5 feet away from him). It was pretty fun being that small and knocking everything around the battlefield with tons of melee damage.

>>53146496
Anyone?

>>53146727

DHB is a meme, we praise his cooking but we never actually buy the cookbook.

>>53146560
Are Brawlers T4?

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>>53146675
What the fuck, that's not my pic. I've never even saved that pic before. What the hell is going on?

>>53146743
I thought his stuff was free.

>>53146758
4chan does this weird thing were if you and someone else post an image at the exact same time shit gets fucked.

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>>53146665
Depends on your definition of "savage," of course you aren't going to wanna bone the violent primitive cannibal tribes that comprise the majority of the campaign's antagonists, but a Kalabutan? They're pretty much Chelaxians after someone used the paint bucket feature on them, and the Mulaa are much the same albeit still clinging to some aspects of the old ways.

>>53146678

What I was going to do is make a Bloodrager or Barbarian Horc or Tiefling, grab claws from Beast Totem, but I also wanted to get a Gore , Tail and Hooves in there if possible. The Gore can be bought with a magic item, Tail can be taken with the Adopted (Kobold) trait if necessary, but idk how to get Hooves in that build.

I was going to do a synthesis summoner but the hard cap on natural weapons rankles me something fierce.

>>53146777
Well, now I need to find where my original pic is, and what poor soul got my heresy pic instead.

I'm going to first start by looking and trying to find >>53146673 >>53146674 >>53146676 >>531466757 and see which of those guys got my pic

>>53146434
I wish Awesome Blow was easier to grab, that stuff is fun.

>>53146777
Holy shit

Fucking 40k grade timeloops or some shit

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Since I'm kinda disappointed with Steel Serpent and the lack of viable damage over time in Pathfinder, I started homebrewing my own discipline for the games I run. The general gimmick is DoT/Combo based gameplay, doing little damage on the first turn, but quickly ramping up to a beast at turn three-ish.

I'd love to get some feedback on my first draft (Only goes up to level 5 maneuvers). I feel like it's pretty OP as it stands, but it's surprisingly hard to balance something like this. From ballparked estimations minmaxed characters of other disciplines were still doing more damage and weren't reliant on the enemy surviving a turn or two.

Anyways, here's the link: >https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uz4luyrGQPGECrW20K3x3lstkRQNpTXYzeWewbla6lQ/edit#

Any feedback even if it's just you telling me how stupid and incompetent I am would be very much appreciated. Also if you have any ideas for a better discipline name, that would be good too. I don't really like the current one but can't think of a better one.

Sorry for interrupting the lewdgame circlejerk.

>>53146801
And what if I wanna bone the violent primitives

And what if I wanna bone those that aren't even humans

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>>53146694
Certain builds of it do way too much damage for how durable, versatile, and hard to counter it is.

The abilities that make it T3 are fine, and don't need to be changed.

See attached math.

>>53146873
Taking a look now.

>>53146743
Why though? I thought his homebrew fixed fighters and such?

>>53146886
>Not calculating "probability to kill CR X monsters in Y rounds"

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>>53146887
Much appreciated.

Bushi Warlord or Bushi Warder?

>>53146873
Turn on comments first.

So, certain people were discussing how T5 classes could be improved. Someone suggested giving them free archetypes that don't replace their normal abilities, but add them onto what they normally have. T5s get two-three free archetypes, T4s get one-two. Could this work?

>>53146945
It's damage against ac. I'm sure you're not stupid enough to not be able to figure out the rest. Or can you not use google to look up average monster stats?

>>53146873
Yeah, you've jumped over where you should have been.

>Crimson Tempest Maneuvers and Stances require the use of a discipline weapon.
Why?

>Furthermore the damage is taken at the end of the opponent’s turn, not at the start.
Why?

Rake is way too much damage for a 1st level maneuver.
Ditto for Hemmorage.
Exsanguinate is absurd, because it lets you spam things even harder and remove the only weakness DoT has.
Hamstring is strictly better than other L1 maneuvers that restrict speed.
Serrated Blade beats most L1 damage stances.
Aggravated Wounds is actually likely fine if you don't throw around OP nonsense elsewhere.

And yeah, generally you're dramatically undervaluing the power of damage over time. Paizo overvalues it, true, but you've gone full retard the other way.

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>>53146957
If Strength Warder.
If Dex Warlord.

Strength Warlord also works fine but Dex Bushi Warder is probably a little tricky since Bushi doesn't go with Dervish Defender iirc.

>>53146945
Do it yourself. This table doesn't care about the HP and AC of different monsters. Look up the monster you care about.

jesus christ

>>53146974
No. That wouldn't fix their issues. People keep trying these 'hot fixes' when they don't actually solve anything.

Do you think vigilante need a rework? Because under these rules they now have 6 level wizard and cleric casting on top of their normal kit.

>>53146974
...no. It would make things worse probably.

>>53147006
>>53147013
Got it. I just wanted opinions.

>>53146982
>>53147001
I can, but I'm saying that HP damage and AC are abstractions, and bringing it to probability to kill based on a fight difficulty, even with how busted CR is, is a more tangible result.

>>53146886
>See attached math
>which has 0 context and no builds

Nice, I'll be sure to prep my wizard accordingly

>>53147025
SO describe to me what that graph would look like.

What is on the x axis.
What is on the y axis.
What is in the legend.

I don't understand the "we shouldn't need anyone, martials just need to be buffed attitude", because that's fucking retarded. Low tier classes( 5-6) need to come up and high tier classes (1-2) need to come down to meet in the middle. People who think fighters should have fist wish, or that anyone should have the kind of versatility a wizard does, needs to be shot.

>>53147052
I agree. Though honestly I think most tier 2 classes would be fine if they had some way of having a theme enforced on them. The truth is that certain spells/play styles grant abilities that shouldn't be in the hands of players.

>>53147025
No it isn't you fucking tard. Do you have any idea how wide of a fucking gap there is between same CR monsters you'd realize that. If you seriously fucking think that'd be more useful you need to get your head checked.

>>53147040
>lists build parts next to name
The fuck context do you even want?

>>53146974
I really don't think approaching it like that would work very well. Some archetypes only replace one or two minor things. Others are nearly a different class onto themselves and replace almost everything. And then there are some archetypes that are just flat-out upgrade over the base class while others are worse.

>>53145913
I dig the setting, but what will the campaign b about?

Also, to be more /tg/,
How big is the place to justify so many species?

>>53147052
Nobody thinks fighter should have wizard tier Gabe changes, but not being laughed out of the room by a Bard when he wants to do anything besides "hit dude good" would be nice

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>>53147040
>lol wizards
No one is talking about that.
Also here is the monk build. It can't pounce with the dragon stance yet, but at level 13 it can.

I've posted builds before, if you want more search the archive.

>>53147052
Agreed. The main problem with the game is that the strategic abilities of 9th level casters is just off the fucking chain.

Simulacrum clone armies are a level 13 ability of a sorcerer and wizard for fucks sake.

Is Zweihander Sentinel a must-take archetype for all Warders, given how much better it is over the others?

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>>53146895
Because we discovered there are already better, more interesting alternatives to the fighter, and none of us are ready to learn more about DHB's fixes for classes we've turned away from.

>>53147094
>Nobody thinks fighter should have wizard tier Gabe changes,
Then why do I see people asking for that shit in these very threads?

>>53147110
Yeah, like Advanced Weapon Training. Not that PoW shit though.

>>53147110
Like what? Because PoW doesn't really solve the "nothing to do out of combat" issue. Is there something else I don't know about?

>BP shitposting
I had hoped we had moved on from this old meme

>>53147093
In terms of size, literally infinite. The things further out start approaching more eldritch horror "there's no food what do you eat out here?" levels of nasty.

I'm not quite sure what the actual initial hook would be. IT depends on what the group wants right now. making a nation and conquering the world, finding out why everything is like this, etc.

>>53147101
Depends, do you want to use a shield(Vanilla), Demon Gauntlets(Fiendbound), or Ranged Weapons(Hawkguard).

If you answered yes to any of these questions then no, you don't need to be a ZS.

If you answered no to any of these questions, then the answer is still no, you don't NEED to be a ZS by why wouldn't you want to. It's like being a Bloodrager and not picking Primalist.

>>53147142
PoW demands a high mental stat and many disciplines have out-of-combat valuable skills as discipline skills. Between those two, an initiator is much more likely to have something to do besides stab really well.

>>53147148
What is your malfunction?

>>53147175
So they demand a high stat in a mental score, and give you a few skill points. That wasn't impressive when the original rogue did it ether.

>>53147046
Probably CR on the x axis, with KO probability on the y. Legend would be either by build, with level set to match for all of the builds, or it'd be by level using the same build overall. The latter case would likely change the x axis to not be exact CR, but something like "level -2 CR, level +4 CR" since it'd match up with the changing levels better.

>>53147175
So you're telling me they don't actually do anything to help you out of combat? Because that's not actually helping out of combat, it's making fun of you for being poor out of combat.

>>53147201
>Probably CR on the x axis, with KO probability on the y.
Nigga how the fuck do you measure CR when CR means essentially nothing for a creatures AC and HP. You may as well write "ass cookies" instead of CR because it's about as meaningful.

>>53147175
This is incredibly dependent on the Disciplines people pick. PoW ENCOURAGES(not demands, the minimum of two recovery maneuvers sees to that) high mentals because you can just pick things with no saves.

The vast majority of Disciplines don't provide significant out of combat utility you might get "I can fly on my own power" or "I can punch through walls faster and earlier than the barb can get an adamantine weapon".

It helps but doesn't really solve. Path of War helps the "in combat utility problem without needing to fucking pour over a bunch of horsehshit CMD rules and gimmick archetypes" problem.

>>53146558
>>53141719
I'd say that the Missionary or Guide are more interesting/fascinating to explore than Serial Killer. The SK angle takes way too much faith and expectation in the rest of the party being shocked or repulsed by your actions but still finding you necessary; if others have already committed similar or worse atrocities by the time you reveal yourself, or simply don't give a shit about what you've done, it falls flat. Meanwhile, a connection to the NPCs (as either a priest spreading the good word of Jebus Kreis or as an explorer looking for his lost brother) is more reliable, and more interesting to watch unfold without needing to interrupt or push onto with other PCs.

>>53146883
Then you just go back to Step 1 of this conversation.

How do initiator classes work with gestalt, when it comes to determining initiator level? Does it count the same as multi-classing, so a warlord/zealot 6 would count as initiator level 9 for both classes?

>>53147186
You're moving the goalposts, unless you'd like to claim that the original rogue wasn't useful out of combat.
Wizard level useful? Hell no. Fighter level useless? God no.

>>53147212
Please explain how a high [diplomacy/intimidate/bluff/sense motive/stealth/perception/survival] modifier is doing nothing to help you out of combat, and do so without also arguing that you need magic to be useful out of combat.

>>53147239
Teeeechnically yes they'd be IL 9 in that case.
Most GMs would slap your shit for trying that though.

>>53147201
And how the fuck is that more meaningful than damage vs AC. CR doesn't mean anything as an axis. It doesn't provide any actual information.

>>53147239
>How do initiator classes work with gestalt, when it comes to determining initiator level?

They're treated as separate "initiator trees," same way casting classes are handled. People generally don't mix n' match Initiating classes because of this, otherwise you'll have TWO separate lists of maneuvers you can choose from as a Warlord/Zealot.

>>53147227
By averaging the HP and AC of the monsters in the bestiaries?

>>53147244
>Please explain how a high [diplomacy/intimidate/bluff/sense motive/stealth/perception/survival] modifier is doing nothing to help you out of combat, and do so without also arguing that you need magic to be useful out of combat.
Excuse me? The class isn't doing anything to give you a high modifier in those any more than fighter is. It's pointing at them and saying "better have a high modifier bucko or you'll be shit at this discipline" without actually having any class features to give you a bonus to them or more ways to use them.

You can't be this retarded.

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>>53146983
>Requirement of Discipline weapon
I was a bit iffy on this myself. I'll probably end up removing it, but the initial thought was to restrict most of the higher-damage weapons from picking up the discipline (without wasting a feat).

>Damage taken at the end of the opponent's turn.
Balance reasons, mostly. That way the damage can be tuned higher without being rocket tag.

>Rake and hemorrhage is way too much damage for a 1st level maneuver.
Yeah you're right. I'll likely drop a round on those.

>Exsanguinate is absurd
Yeah this is the main offender for OPness in the discipline; but also a mechanic I really like.
Blowing Exsanguinate and (a nerfed) Hemorrhage and Rake you'd do +6d4 over two turns and recover maneuvers. That's a bit much, I agree.

>Hamstring is strictly better than other L1 maneuvers that restrict speed.
I balanced it against Whirlwind Sweep from Fool's Errand. But in retrospect I balanced it badly. I'll probablyremove the attack portion.

>Serrated Blade beats most L1 damage stances.
I actually don't entirely agree on this one. It's balanced against Elemental Nimbus (add IM to damage), but you don't gain the benefit on the first round and any round after you'd exsanguinate, that's offset by the +2 attack. Might lower the attack bonus by 1 but I really don't feel like it's overpowering, especially because it kinda locks you into Crimson Tempest as a whole.

Thanks for the feedback though! Any opinions on the higher level maneuvers?

>>53147244
Since you're a martial you probably won't have an exceptionally high bonus and that's also predicated on you being an Wis/Charisma initiator.

>>53147268
So how the fuck is that different than AC and HP damage as the graph axis? Because now all you're doing is making the graph give less information at a glance.

>>53147259
Knowing that your attack is 60% going to kill the guy compared to 80% is actionable information. You could actually use that to make a decision on trying to kill a thing or trying something else. It's the chance that your action is actually successful in doing it's job.

>>53147239
IL 6 on ech side
>>53147142
Warlord can actively stop nearby creatures into the negatives from dying out by designating them as allies via Indomitable Presence giving them Diehard.
Warder doesn't have stuff as baseline but inquisitions and blessings have utility if you go OD
Stalker also gets stuff from archetypes
Harbinger gets mostly on mobility methods
Creation Zealot can heal, supress negative conditions, create walls and platforms.
Mystic, at later levels can provide true sight and some other stuff to the party.

>>53147244
>Wizard level useful? Hell no. Fighter level useless? God no.
The thing is Fighter actually has a class feature way of increasing the number of class skills they have. In this instance they are quite literally better than most initiators are skills because of it. Your argument has no legs to stand on.

>>53147239
That comes under "no stacking" rule of gestalt, so no. Just like you can't double up on your wizard's casting progression by running PrC with +CL and wizard parallel.

>>53147239
>Lets take PoW, and then GESTALT IT?
jesus why?

>>53147244
>You're moving the goalposts, unless you'd like to claim that the original rogue wasn't useful out of combat.
It literally wasn't compared to anyone who had spells ever.
>Wizard level useful? Hell no. Fighter level useless? God no.
If the wizard is 100 usefull, and the fighter was 1, then the rogue's skills were a 2, not counting UMD.

>Please explain how a high [diplomacy/intimidate/bluff/sense motive/stealth/perception/survival] modifier is doing nothing to help you out of combat, and do so without also arguing that you need magic to be useful out of combat.

It is not that those are not useful out of combat, it is that "lol it has skill points" has been used to justify shitty classes with no strategic abilities since literally 1985.

It was a meme in the 90s, and memes didn't even exist then yet.


>>53147309
All of those combined isn't impressive when compared to an unchained monk.

>>53147303
>Knowing that your attack is 60% going to kill the guy compared to 80% is actionable information. You could actually use that to make a decision on trying to kill a thing or trying something else. It's the chance that your action is actually successful in doing it's job.

Except it doesn't do that because CR average stats are essentially meaningless as there is such a difference in stats of creatures within the same CR that number doesn't likely apply to your situation.

>>53147333
>has been used to justify shitty classes with no strategic abilities since literally 1985.
Initiators do have strategic abilities in combat.

They're way more interesting than a barbarian/monk spamming charge/pummeling charge. You have to admit that at least.

>>53147358
So look at the standard deviation when you average the stats from the bestiaries.

>>53147239
IL 6, because "Gestalt" is technically the merger of two classes into a single "class". People seem to forget that it's not a case of two "tracks" going on concurrently, but is rather the equivalent of taking two classes and smashing them together into one.

>>53146883
I'm perhaps in the same boat, except I wanna be the violent primitive doing the boning. C'mere colonists, I got somethin to show ya!

>>53147244
>Please explain how a high [diplomacy/intimidate/bluff/sense motive/stealth/perception/survival] modifier is doing nothing to help you out of combat, and do so without also arguing that you need magic to be useful out of combat.
What? Are you serious? They don't actually have any class feature support to help you get those numbers anymore than a fighter does. I'm not sure if you're being serious now or just arguing for the sake of it.

>>53147386
So now the chart is CR vs Rounds with levels as another third axis and a standard deviation within CR and levels. I'm going to need more dimensions to convey this chart.

>>53146632
>>53147148
We didn't listen. Now the thread is full autism.

>>53147333
I was just taking into account class features and not disciplines.
You mean dimension door via abundant step? What's Veiled Moon and Shattered Mirror, or the Unquiet Grave stance for walking through walls?
Most of the other stuff short of Augury can be replicated through maneuvers, and the initiators probably do it even better.

>>53147433
You don't graph the standard deviation, just take note of it for the different CRs and say "hey, this CR's data is really varied, so take this with that in mind"

>>53147440
>What's Veiled Moon and Shattered Mirror, or the Unquiet Grave stance for walking through walls?
Disciplines the bast majority of Initiators don't have or won't take.

When was the last time you've seen fucking ANYONE use Unquiet Grave.

>>53147384
>strategic ability
>in combat
The word you were looking for is tactical. Initatiors can't run a kingdom or solve a mystery any better than any other commoner of the same level.

>interesting
Personally, I find decisions interesting, in which case the initiators don't have many more than the monk. Most of their "attack routines" are just as canned and predictable, but wit the added penalty of being way more complicated.

Most of the interesting decisions in pathfinder combat involve positioning, target prioritization, and spell selection/use.

>>53147434
Yes, lets stop discussing tier abilities, damage math, and how to build good classes and go back to waifu and fetish degeneracy.

>>53147440
I didn't say "worse than", i said "not impressive". If a ranger has more strategic utility than you I think you need to start over.

>>53147440
Where do pure initiating classes do the following:
>detect lies (like the inquisitor does as a class feature)
>give extra skill ranks (as fighter does as a class feature)
>give a native scaling bonus to skills (as inquisitor, bard, cavalier, etc. do as class features)
>give new ways to use skills (as rogues, cavaliers, and investigators do as class features)
>give unique non-skill actions/abilities (like vigilante do as a class feature)

>>53147478
>Personally, I find decisions interesting, in which case the initiators don't have many more than the monk.
Then we're going to have to agree to disagree then.

>>53147478
>number crunching autism is the only thing /pfg/ will talk about besides waifu shitposting
You bring this autism with you like a plague.

>>53147282
>Excuse me? The class isn't doing anything to give you a high modifier in those any more than fighter is. It's pointing at them and saying "better have a high modifier bucko or you'll be shit at this discipline" without actually having any class features to give you a bonus to them or more ways to use them.
Which is different from a wizard who picks nothing but Fireball variants? Every class can be built to be dogshit off the battlefield. PoW is less likely than core martials to be dogshit out of combat.

>>53147287
If you're an INT initiator, then you'll have more skill points than the big stupid fighter. And thus likely to be not crap when the answer isn't murder.

>>53147322
And initiators can pick and choose class skills by trading disciplines they weren't using anyways.

>>53147333
If you're rating Fighter as 1 and Rogue as 2, then putting Wiz at 100, you're stating "Have magic or be useless out of combat".

And you're not defending your stance that having skills != utility, just shitposting right now. Sure, it's worse utility than magic. But it's still a margin of utility.

>>53147478
>The word you were looking for is tactical. Initatiors can't run a kingdom or solve a mystery any better than any other commoner of the same level.
And what classes that can't cast do run a kingdom better than Stitches Von Peasanting? Not fucking many.

>>53147465
>You don't graph the standard deviation, just take note of it for the different CRs and say "hey, this CR's data is really varied, so take this with that in mind"
So literally put "this chart doesn't actually mean anything" on the chart? How is this better than damage vs. AC, since that actually means something?

>>53147494
>>detect lies (like the inquisitor does as a class feature
Bushido
>give new ways to use skills
Skill to X manuvers
>>53147508
If you're an Int iniatior you won't have the fucking class skills to anything WITH those points. High Spellcraft doesn't mean shit for dick if you can't detect magic. And the Warder's native skill list is fucking pathetic.

>>53147496
Fair.

>>53147508
>>53147508
...So I'm thinking that I'm just being baited now.

>>53147521
Pls. Be nice. You have made your point and being mean isn't going to change his mind any faster.

>>53147508
>Which is different from a wizard who picks nothing but Fireball variants? Every class can be built to be dogshit off the battlefield. PoW is less likely than core martials to be dogshit out of combat.
Because they don't have any class features to help them off the battle field where as many non-initiators do.

>>53147508
>And initiators can pick and choose class skills by trading disciplines they weren't using anyways.
Yes and? That doesn't give them more ranks. Literally everyone can do that with traits, it says essentially nothing for the class.

>>53147521
>So literally put "this chart doesn't actually mean anything" on the chart?
Welcome to actual fucking statistics.

>>53147534
>Skill to X manuvers
That's not out of combat usefulness.

>Bushido
Fair, Bushido can do that. However none of the base initiator classes do. Some of the initiators archetypes can because they poach things from paizo classes, and a few of the archetypes have something similar.

>>53147540
>>53147542
I'm very confused here.
Are skill ranks considered to have meaning out-of-combat or to be hot dogshit out of combat?
Because I'm seeing arguments that initiators suck hot ass off the field of battle because skill ranks mean fuckall, and arguments that initiators suck hot ass off the field of battle because they don't have enough skill ranks.

>>53147552
Ok, explain to me how a chart with 'this chart doesn't mean anything, don't use it to make any decisions or expect it to be accurate' is more useful than 'this damage done to this AC'?

>>53147521
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3

Here's actual data on the bestiaries. Look at the AC std devs, it's basically constant at ~3 AC for a good portion of the game and bestiary. HP is a little less so, but Hit Die is, so it's likely just higher con bonuses. Just because there is deviation doesn't mean you throw the whole thing out. And how is DPR vs. AC any more actionable information?

>>53147573
Skill ranks don't mean anything special. Literally everyone has skill ranks. You need:
>bonuses to skills
>new ways to use skills (Skill to X maneuvers don't count because they're combat usage)
>non-skill things to do (like many vigilante talents)
>ways to get extra skill ranks (like fighters)

Skill ranks alone don't mean anything special. Everyone has them.

>>53147508
>And what classes that can't cast do run a kingdom better than Stitches Von Peasanting? Not fucking many.
Fine I'll fucking bite.

>long range instant communication
>creating water, food, raw materials (metal, stone, fabricate to other things) out of nothing
>reading minds, speaking with the dead, knowing the actual truth in matters of law and business.
>teleportation to any location needed to grant incredible force projection abilities.
>reading the god damn fucking FUTURE
I mean I could go on, but I think I have made my point. Welcome to a level 8 sorcerer who spent 6 spell slots on running a kingdom.

>>53147573
The issue is that skills do matter, but not that much, and everyone gets them.

"but they have skills!" has been the defense of every "can't actually do anything but HP damage" class design since I was literally in diapers.

>>53147583
Most of the iconic monsters are outliers anyways. I probably fight things inside 1SD from avg. less than half of the time.

>>53147583
>And how is DPR vs. AC any more actionable information?
Because it tells me how much damage I'm doing against different ACs?

The only way CR would be more meaningful if you're actually trying to use the chart as a means to decide whether to attack or not and not as a way to compare builds. Because the chart is going to be the same end result but will less comparable numbers.

>>53147608
The fighter getting extra skill ranks means jack shit because he had ass for should to begin with. Going from 2 ranks/level to an effective 5 ranks/level just means you're barely caught up to the human Barbarian

>>53147633
All your examples involve casting, retard.

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Huh, will you look at that. Different places will have different prices, of course, but this is a pretty good start for determining how much land costs in Pathfinder.

So my character is a smug wizard guy, and he's been sort of going steady with the nice paladin girl, right? Real wholesome, but great in bed for a rookie, you feel me? And he enjoys her a bunch.
But now the fighter girl is putting the moves on him. She's really funny, and she's got exotic sex appeal. He likes her a bunch too, and he wants to go further with her.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend he's a class that does have a sense of right and wrong. What should stud wizard do?

>>53147644
>The fighter getting extra skill ranks means jack shit because he had ass for should to begin with. Going from 2 ranks/level to an effective 5 ranks/level just means you're barely caught up to the human Barbarian

This isn't an argument on the usefulness of the fighter, but on the merit of those class features. Way to focus in on one point and ignore the rest to try and strawman.

>>53147576
It's a guideline and deviations must be expected.

>>53147657
...Yes they do. That's the point.

>>53147576
It's not that the whole chart doesn't mean anything, it's that the values for specific CR, (the high level CRs) would be particularly varied, and only those statistics should be looked at with more scrutiny. The low level stuff has plenty of data for averages and std devs to have meaning.

>>53147633
Then average the AC and HP of the monsters you do spend time fighting.

>>53147673

Is this even a question? Stick with the nice Paladin girl, you're already established with her and trying to double dip in dating will only result in sticky, ant-covered fingers.

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>>53147633
>since I was literally in diapers
You should probably change those now by the way, seeing how much shit you're spewing.

>>53147508
>And what classes that can't cast do run a kingdom better than Stitches Von Peasanting? Not fucking many.
Vigilante by a massive fucking margin, rogue as well with rogue talents/certain archetypes. If we're limiting ourselves to zero spellcasting and not just full casters.

If we include any level of spellcasting rangers and paladins are better without their spellcasting. Six level casters alchemist, inquisitors, and investigators are all better without their spellcasting.

>>53147657
>>53147679
Oh wait I actually am retarded and can't read. My bad.

My point was that initiators don't have much strategic power over a fighter or a barbarian. This is bad.

Do you disagree?

>>53147679
Yeah, you're a damn retard. Learn to read.

>>53147688
>>53147676
Ok, you know what. It doesn't really matter. Either way the chart will still be giving essentially the same data just with different axis. The comparisons would still reveal identical information for the purpose of build comparison. How it's conveyed doesn't really matter.

>>53147640
There's some weight to that argument, honestly. DPR is probably a good measure of builds in a vacuum, and the kill chance would be a good measure for in combat. I'd still say that kill chance could be used to define someone as a "primary damage dealer" or just a "secondary damage dealer" like a bard or whatever.

>>53147674
I said those features are shit and not even worth considering, nothing more. But please, feel free to lay out at nothing some more.

Ah the joys of making d20 monsters.

"Why does this have this skill bonus?"
"Because I fucking said so."
"But that makes no sense."
"It's a 'Because I fucking said so' bonus and I'm the DM."
"Why doesn't it have feats?"
"Because I fucking said so. If I want it to be more accurate, I give it a +3 "Because I fucking said so" bonus to attack rolls. If I want it to have power attack, I say "Treat this creature as though it has power attack because I fucking said so". If I want it to have a feat that it doesn't qualify for, it gets it because I fucking said so."

You can tell I ran out of patience at some point. d20 monsters have no business having feats or spell likes. If you have to look away from the statblock, you fucked up.

>>53147749
>I said those features are shit and not even worth considering, nothing more. But please, feel free to lay out at nothing some more.
"Gets more skill ranks" isn't worth anything under any circumstances. Please, tell me more.

>>53147699
No use trying for a harem ending?

>>53147470
Using Unquiet Grave in a play-by-post right now, 's real fun.

>>53147478
>positioning, target prioritization, and spell selection/use.
Oh, you mean mobility boosts and strikes, being able to force an enemy to roll multiple times against a save DC ability or heavily debuff them, and having a variety of strikes readied for multiple situations? I find it common to at least have one single target debuff strike, one ranged strike, one AoE strike readied at all times.

>solve a mystery
OD Warder using inquisitions such as Reformation or Conversion to charm/dominate person, Recovery for locate creature/object, etc etc

>Solve a Mystery
Scent and Detect Evil are good places to start with, and at higher levels you can do stuff like friendship-striking everyone to be as helpful as possible.

>>53147494
>detect lies
Any ST initiator will boost Sense Motive to a point absurd enough that Bluff won't make it unless the DM optimizes for it and manages to bypass the minuses for the character not being willing to believe the lies.
Judge Stalker also gets detect lies
>give a native scaling bonus to skills
Stalker, Vigilante archetype via trapfinding, same archetype also grants investigator talents
Stalker baseline also has access to rogue talents
>give unique non-skill actions/abilities (like vigilante do as a class feature)
Mystic Glyphs, Claiming, Armiger's Mark
OD Inquisitions and Blessings
Judge Stalker Domains/Inquisitions/Greater dispel magic
Soul Hunter clauriaudience/clairvoyance, scrying, locate creature

Sorry if there is a /sqt/ and i'm missing it.

I'm a new player who's about to be fumbling in the dark with a bunch of new players, we've never played DnD or anything of the sort.

I know pathfinder is the more complex version, so I figured you guys would be more experienced, which version should I try and blind DM?

Sorry for the potential derail

>>53147787
No, god no. This isn't anime.

>>53147812
>which version should I try and blind DM?

Ah, you're going to stumble into this like a blind man in an unfamiliar hallway, eh? Personally, I'd recommend checking out 5e instead of Pathfinder, we're mostly the flotsam of 3.5e that didn't like the taste of 4e.

Pathfinder's got bloat and tons of mechanics, 5e's sleeker.

Is the PoW Medic any good?

>>53147812
Definitely not pathfinder. What kind of game do you want to run, anyway? There's a good chance that you shouldn't actually play D&D at all, but some other RPG.

>>53147838
If it wasn't anime, there wouldn't be thirsty wenches vying for his thick wizard dick! Checkmate.

>>53147812
...You have no idea what you are getting into. You will NEED someone who knows the game well to teach you how to play.

5th ed is good to learn how to play on. Once you have played for awhile you can move yourself into the big-kid-pool and try pathfinder.

>>53147812
5e. Pathfinder at its best is still an awful system to start on, even if the mechanics don't trip you up it'll color your experience of roleplaying games in a very specific way.

>>53147804
>OD Warder using inquisitions such as Reformation or Conversion to charm/dominate person, Recovery for locate creature/object, etc etc
"Gets paizo class features" isn't a good argument for PoW having good class features for it.

>the list for who gets what
I will agree Stalker by far does out of combat the best among initiators, a good 2/3 of your examples are Stalker related.

>>53147717
>My point was that initiators don't have much strategic power over a fighter or a barbarian. This is bad.
>Do you disagree?

Finally, we're on the same page.
My point is that initiators, while not the utility gods that casters are, can be reasonably expected to modestly outperform core martial types off the battlefield due to the way their class features encourage or require mental stats and/or skills that have utility.
I would not disagree with the general statement you made, but might bicker about the exactly meaning of "don't have much strategic power over" since it's so dependent on the builds involved and the scale of the campaign.

My experience, and I acknowledge that anecdotes are bad evidence, is that well picked stances will often provide solutions to environmental issues that a BSF cannot overcome and that the rate of "I use X skill to solve the problem!" is much higher from initiators than BSFes.

>>53147866
Going for a fantasy game, i'll be writing some sort of quest.

Since we are all brand new and are used to the limitations of video games I think even generic as hell vanilla stuff should be fun.

>>53147838
>>53147871
>>53147877
5e it is then, unless the above contradicts this. I think we'll all have fun.

>>53147871
>big-kid-pool and try pathfinder

it's not a big-kid-pool, it's a pile of writhing autists and spreadsheets

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>>53141672
I want to play a Kobold Snare Setter Unchained Rogue sometime, but I haven't had a good opportunity yet.

Well, or make the kobold a PoW character focused entirely around boosts and extra actions for others, a la a 4e Lazylord, and be the cute party mascot.

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What sort of character would you make for a Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign? Why?

>>53147903
>My point is that initiators, while not the utility gods that casters are, can be reasonably expected to modestly outperform core martial types off the battlefield due to the way their class features encourage or require mental stats and/or skills that have utility.
Except UC Rogue and Vigilante.

>>53147926
>extra actions for others
So, Bushi with Riven Hourglass?

>>53147932
>What sort of character would you make for a Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign?
A political terrorist.

>Why?
Burn the red harlot upon her stolen throne.

>>53147920
You have described /pfg/, and not people who play pathfinder. A lot of the people I play with can pass for normal humans for at least multi-hour long periods of time.

>Serial Killer and Night Terror do not stack.
DAMN.

I suppose I simply won't be an initiator then.

Also is Vivisectionist the most Doctor like alchemist, or am I missing something?

>>53147920
>it's not a big-kid-pool, it's a pile of writhing autists and spreadsheets
Most people who play pathfinder aren't as bad as we are. We're the bottom of the barrel.

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>>53147867
>If it wasn't anime, there wouldn't be thirsty wenches vying for his thick wizard dick!

Anon... That isn't how these things work. The Paladin likes the Wizard because she's got affectionate, intimate, and whatever other -ate is needed to say "she wants him." It isn't a case of being a thirsty wench, because she's already got exclusive rights to the well.

The Fighter's after the Wizard's staff because he's forbidden fruit, and if someone as lovely and wholesome as a Paladin is that man's happy girlfriend, why, the Wizard must be doing something right in the bedroom. She's not looking for a relationship, she just wants to jump the Wizard's bones and go for a spin. It might be fun, but this can and will ruin your relationship with the Paladin.

>>53147871
>Big kids pool
Pathfinder is like, the definitive system of millennial hipsters. Not the mainstream but not actually obscure enough to show any actual depth of knowledge in the hobby, with a noteworthy amount of pandering to the demographic.

>>53147976

It is doctor-like, yeah.

>>53147932
>what kind
An insane, incestuous Urgathoan cleric
>why
For fun!

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>>53147932
WASHED OUT, ZERK-ADDICTED BRAWLER.

>>53147932
A parkour-using paladin who's a big-city cop.

>>53148002
You sure impressed us with your big words and smart thinking. You are so cool. We are so impressed.

>>53148004
Yeah but I'm trying to find if there are any other better options for a physician alchemist, doesn't seem like it though.

>>53147992
/pfg/ hovers close to middle at worse. The average PF player observable in PFS, Reddit or Roll20 can't read raw and only does the bare minimum on roleplaying.

Good players are inherently rare no matter where you look. Domestication principles and all.

>>53148032
He says with no hint of irony after describing one tabletop as the big kids pool.

>>53148073
Most people who play pathfinder don't obsess over dick sizes and fat fetishization. Or talking in circles while shouting the word "CUTE".

>>53147996
All good points. You're kinda cute, Anon. What's your Discord

>>53148112
>What's your Discord

I'm not telling!

>>53147965
>>53147992
Actual "normal" people have a hard enough time grasping 5e, let alone the horrific mess that is Pathfinder.

>>53148104
As true as this is, those same size kings and fat-chasers tend to be pretty spiffy with the roleplay.

>>53148151
>Actual "normal" people have a hard enough time grasping 5e, let alone the horrific mess that is Pathfinder.
I don't mean we're worse at the game. The general game knowledge here is fine.

I'm saying we're awful people as a community. Particularly with the obsession with fetishes.

>>53147953
I don't really see what you're getting at.

>>53148170
>As true as this is, those same size kings and fat-chasers tend to be pretty spiffy with the roleplay.
I don't know who the fuck you've been playing with but I've experienced the opposite. ERP fuckers can't roleplay outside of describing the direction they shoot bodily fluids in.

>>53148148
But your advice was really insightful. I want to get to know the mind responsible a little better! Come on, what's the worst that could happen?

If you buy a pdf copy of Path of War or Path of War Expanded and they later errata it, will the errata be added into the pdf copy?

>>53148204
No, you'll have to edit your pdf

>>53148176
Basically, spam Gift of Time>Donate full round action to ally>refresh maneuver as free, and repeat.

Any good teamwork feats for an Archer Inquisitor? Or should I replace Solo Tactics with something else?

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Would a core Barbarian or PoW variant Barbarian be better for a horc?

I feel like Rage Powers (lol Pounce, lol Superstition) might win out in the long run but i'm not sure.

>>53148204
Don't worry, we're never getting that errata

>>53148237
>horc
?

>>53148234
Many teamwork feats require you to be next to someone. The donate a reflex save to people within 30ft might work. Otherwise I can't think of many.

>>53148234
All the enfilading feats plus wounded paw gambit. Just tit for tat bonuses and some free attacks

>>53148237
PoW stuff definitely wins out against rage powers. Take a look at what 6th-level maneuvers can do.

>>53148198
Sorry anon, but this is one anon that's going to get away remaining anonymous. Have fun with that Paladin girl, adn treat her right!

>>53148250

Half-orc, presumably.

>>53148237

A normal barbarian is quite effective at kicking the shit out of bad guys. The Invulnerable Rager archetype is excellent, and as a half-orc, you can use the Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored combination.

That said, PoW can do some seriously silly things. Might be worth checking out.

Have you ever seen a DMPC done well? Can it even work?

>>53148275

You don't get those until way high levels though due to how their progression would work.

10th level Barbarian is pouncing and shrugging off spells if built correctly. Probably better with a Ragebred natural attack build though.

>>53148171
That's just 4chan's influence for ya. I think it's good that all the degenerates have a place to play games and not infect the greater pathfinder community.

>>53148311

>run for a small group
>make a DMPC who plays a supporting cast role
>design their mechanics around buffing, healing supporting, or otherwise doing roles the PCs don't want to do themselves
>roleplay them as someone who isn't antagonistic or grating; prioritize how the PCs and their characters feel

There, DMPC done right.

>>53148311
Depends on what flavor of DMPC we're talking. Is it someone who's just the boss behind a desk? The team's valet or healer? Maybe a recurring merchant? Or is it basically another PC that the GM built just to enjoy his own game from both ends?

>>53148311
Typically people only call them DMPCs after they've gone bad, but practically speaking, there's no significant background difference between a DMPC and a cohort and usually no one will complain about a cleric NPC added to help a weaker group or whatever.

>>53148311
Realize that a NPC that travels with the party and a DMPC is the same thing, transcend past the label.

>>53148292
A worthy opponent...the true Anon

>>53148316
Compare to Temporal Body Adjustment, Direct the Pride, Dragon Rush, Shrug It Off, Impaling Strike, etc.

and then be a kitsune so you can get pounce full attacks anyway alongside boosts

>>53148346
>>53148351
>>53148352
>>53148379
So a pacifist sort of character would probably work best? Maybe a life oracle or a bard or something?

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>>53147932
A Phantom Thief! I want to be even better than Blackjack!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwKHxzfmAOY

>>53148346
>>make a DMPC who plays a supporting cast role
>>design their mechanics around buffing, healing supporting, or otherwise doing roles the PCs don't want to do themselves
>>roleplay them as someone who isn't antagonistic or grating; prioritize how the PCs and their characters feel
I disagree with these.

I have played a DMPC who was with the party for allies of circumstance. They needed him because he was the only one who knew the country, language, culture, and contacts. The party hated him, and they were supposed to. They were NG, NG, LG, and LN. He was TN & NE.

He was a vigilante and terrorist. The party needed into the country to try and find several friends who had gone in months ago before the revolution began and the capital city was put under martial law and shut under quarantine before of an outbreak of the melting plague. The DMPC was the one who knew the way in and out. Somehow they learned to like the man despite him being grating, but not because he was sympathetic, but because his ideals and goals were relatable.

>>53148418
>So a pacifist sort of character would probably work best? Maybe a life oracle or a bard or something?
No, fuck that. The DMPC needs to fit the story.

>>53148397
The lesson learned was, if you already have a main squeeze, don't go around looking for more, and you ask out your teacher? you're incorrigible.

>>53148450
Why couldn't a character like that fit the story?

Who is the final boss of /pfg/, the person who have to beat to prove yourself the strongest in the general? Who are the minibosses? Is the final boss a double boss fight against DHB and 2hu, or is DHB more of a mentor character who dies in the 2nd act?

>>53148488
DHB and 2Hu are the current rulers. But when you defeat them, you awaken the ancient drowanon

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>>53148434

Well, there is something to be said for less-than-pleasant tagalong NPCs.

It has to be said because it's unprintable.

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Would you play in a party with a kitsune mesmerist (vizier)//sorcerer (maestro) with maximized enchantment DCs and Bluff bonuses?