Why do people go to Stannis instead of Daenerys? Daenerys is

hur medieval realism WOMEN LEADERS BAD hurrrffff

>>52710528
>female leaders
>good
>any time, any scenario

>>52710514
But won't compromise ultimately just perpetuate the same system of fundamental inequality in the long term?

I think a crazy guy that ultimately ruins society might be good for the people in the long run.

>>52710514
Because in the books Dany is a dumbass 13 year old that is just as insane as her dad and consistently makes very poor decisions based on emotion. Any "good" decision she makes only comes about from good advice from other people.

Stannis is a seasoned military commander that is fair to a fault, but is fair. Book Stannis is a little less fanatical about the Red God and is just using it as a means to an end. He refused to ally with Renly because the throne is technically his by right of succession. His failing politically is that he's a bit TOO pragmatic and isn't concerned with the "game"

>>52710514

One is a liberalist trying to function in an absolute monarcy, and the other is a cut and dry monarch that is hardened against the backstab-prone nature of his region.

>>52710514
Because Daenarys is an incompetent emotional child. Stannis is harsh but he's incredibly fair. The Lords of Westeros are so corrupt that they need a firm hand like Stannis to keep them in line.

>>52710514
They're both terrible choices as leaders.

Daenerys is an impressionable young woman who leads with her tits and thinks with her gooch. Almost every single person she's met has tried to shag her, manipulate her, or both, and she's been blind to almost all of it. She talks a big game and she can kind of back it up with her dragons, but she can barely even contain those monsters. Her open disgust towards slavery is sympathetic but she is not Lincoln. She simply does not have the resources, support, or the circumstances to win that ideological battle.

Stannis is an inflexible turbo-sperg who cannot function unless everyone plays by his rules. He is completely joyless and uncharismatic and the only people who respect or like him do so because for all his faults he is a fair man. He does not have the makings of a good king and it's obvious he doesn't want to be king anyway. He'd rather just stay at home and grind his teeth for the rest of his life. The only reason he's even waging this war is because he cannot even comprehend he has a choice. This, combined with the fact he had two charismatic and friendly brothers makes him an unpopular and unpleasant man with a persecution complex. He's basically the setting's version of Squidward Tentacles.

>>52710514
>Why do people go to Stannis instead of Daenerys?
1000 miles of fucking water maybe?

Meh, whatever, it's gonna be Jon and Daenerys joining up to rule everything in the end anyway.

>>52710923
Doubtful, one or both of them is gonna eat shit before the story is done. "Bitter-sweet" is how GRRM described the ending.

>>52710912
Shit like this is why I'm actively cheering for the goddamn ice zombies.

>>52710923
>>52710970
>implying we will ever get to see GRRM's ending

>>52710698
This. This so much.

>>52711019
>This.
Fuck off. Return to Reddit if you want to upvote posts.

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>be the writer of a beloved book series
>write under a page per day
>be morbidly obese
>also getting pretty old
>and also not making an effort to improve my health
>people still think the series is gonna end before me

>>52710698
Literally every other sentence here was wrong. Stannis is far from "too pragmatic". Renly was pragmatic, because Renly was willing enough to play the game to actually promise people things to get them on his side rather than "Follow me because I am your rightful king" Stannis is a "seasoned" person who got stuck in a siege. That was his big military achievement before the War of Five Kings, and during the War of Five Kings, he didn't really do much better. In fact, now that I consider it, if we're comparing him to Daenerys in that regard, her military successes outshine Stannis's as well.

>>52710912
This is a good post.

>>52710514
>Stannis fulfilling a great prophecy
>Stannis has a flaming sword
>Stannis has awesome fire church on his side
>Stannis has a great legacy behind him
>Stannis is fighting for the fucking land they grew up in and know and love

>Daenerys is a young woman
>Daenerys is in a far away and exotic land
>Daenerys is a Targaryen who sleeps with her brother and is the mother of dragons, like all Targaryens.
>Daenerys has a weird slave army (this is what everyone else hears about her)
>Daenerys crucifies people
>Daenerys breaks her treaties with merchant lords and has them killed
>Daenerys abandons her subjects to go fly around on her dragons

>>52711306
>That was his big military achievement before the War of Five Kings
He crushed Victarion's Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion which allowed Robert to invade and put them down.

>>52710514
Only faggots care about your stupid titty show

>>52711382
Alright, fair enough.

>>52710514
>>>/tv/

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>>52710998
The Night's King is the real hero.

>>52711306
Re lay is pragmatic? He arbitrarily decided that he had to be king for literally no reason other than he wanted to be. He could have been the next heir to the throne (the laws don't clearly support Shirene over Renly) and Stannis is fairly unlikely to produce a new son with his wife. He would have been a prince with no responsibilities and the heir apparent if he'd simply acted dutifully. But he was easily manipulated by his boyfriend's family and fucked the realm

>>52710514
Every other hero in GOT had to break their backs to get into the positions and status they are in. Danys got her position only because of her dragons. She doesn't know shit about politics which to other characters is a very fatal flaw but hold really no repercussions for Danys. There is whole love triangle thing that turned me off of Korra for the same reason of not being appropriate at all and makes the character not very likable (one thing to not be pure, it's another for them to play with the hearts of multiple lovers, we would call a guy scum if he did that, hell that was the reason for the Red Wedding). She pretends to caring while caring nothing about the cultures of whatever country she is in control of. Added to the fact that all her villains seem to be Mwahaha evil in a series that's suppose to be morally grey. And the reason she's doing everything is not because of any noble reason but because "muh birthright" which is bullshit since the only reason her family was in charge was because of hostile imperial takeover.

basically Deanerys whole arc is if you inserted Twilight into Berserk. Everything about it is wrong and jarring. At least the flawed but well-intentioned Stannis fits the tone of the fucking story

>>52710514
Daenerys was a goddamn hobo Targaryan pretender that people mostly forgot about.

Stannis the Mannis was the rough but effective master of one of Westeros's main naval fiefs, the brother of the usurper king that ousted the increasingly unstable Targaryans, and Robert's kids are all either bastards or abominations that aren't even his.
And Targaryan was founded on access to dragons they haven't had in centuries.

>>52711306
The Siege of Storm’s End

Stannis reluctantly joined with the rebels. Robert tasked Stannis with holding Storm’s End while he marched the majority of his forces west. When Robert was defeated at the Battle of Ashford by the Mace Tyrell (actually Randyll Tarly), it cleared Targaryen loyalist forces to move on Storm’s End. The Tyrell army set up camp outside of the walls of Storm’s End while the royal fleet led by Paxter Redwyne closed off Shipbreaker Bay.

A lesser leader would have capitulated; a lesser leader would have sought honorable terms for surrender, but Stannis did nothing of the sort. His orders were to hold the castle, and he did so at great expense. Here, Stannis demonstrates two aspects of leadership that defined his character as a commander: personal courage and loyalty. He would suffer death before disobeying the orders that his brother had given him.

Despite being cut off from the world, Stannis held. He refused to surrender for an entire year. At death’s door, only the timely arrival of Davos’s onion and salt fish kept the entire garrison from starving to death. And so, they continued to hold out against Mace Tyrell.

Following the Battle of the Trident and the Sack of KL, Ned Stark moved his army to relieve the siege of Storm’s End. The Tyrells dipped their banners at the news of the results of the Trident and the approach of Ned Stark and swore fealty to Robert Baratheon.

It is not explicitly stated that Stannis knew how important his task was, but I’d like to think that Stannis was keenly aware that his efforts tied up one of the largest contingents of Targaryen loyalist forces. I’d also like to think that he understood that simply holding Storm’s End for honor’s sake was not enough reason to hold it for an entire year. My guess is that Stannis saw the strategic value in holding the castle.

>>52710998
Good news!

Everyone else is so incompetently power mad that it'll be series breaking for them to not win!

>>52710970
>"Bitter-sweet" is how GRRM described the ending.

Eagerly anticipating it coming out in 2039 from whatever _____anderson finished it from his notes.

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>>52711420
Being undead doesn't seem all that bad, anyway.

>>52711306
Amphibious Assault: Dragonstone
After holding Storm’s End for a year, one would think that Stannis would be given a respite from war. But this was not to be the case. Stannis was then tasked to take Dragonstone, the traditional seat of Targaryen power. Utilizing part the turncloak fleet of Paxter Redwyne and building a brand new fleet for his brother, he prepared to invade Dragonstone.

Although we don’t know much about the particulars of the battle itself, we do know that he commanded the invasion of Dragonstone from the deck of his flagship, Fury (ACOK, Davos III). This gave Stannis the best command and control of his forces – perhaps the single-most important tactical aspect of leadership. We also know that Stannis was successful in seizing the island fortress from the last Targaryen hold-outs. But amphibious assaults coupled with sieges are among the most dangerous and difficult tasks an army and navy can perform. His utilization of joint warfare was most likely key to winning the battle there. The fact that he was successful speaks volumes of his tactical adaptability as we do not have evidence he commanded a navy before.

In fact, the only real ‘black mark’ is that Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen escaped to Essos – a ‘failure’ that soured the already cold relationship between Robert and Stannis. But I tend to feel that Stannis is justified in having a grievance against Robert, who blamed him for the loss of the last two Targaryens.

>>52710514
>not wanting Aegon to win

Full pleb

>>52711527
>implying that all his notes aren't in locked in a device that's set to burn them all when his heart stops beating

>>52710514
>Rightful king of Westeros who always keeps his word and believes in actual justice

>Histrionic psychopath from a line of psychopaths who rules according to her feelings and crucifies hundreds of people on a whim

By pretty much every metric, Stannis is the better man and the better ruler.

>>52711306
>her military successes outshine Stannis's as well.
But her military successes gained her literally nothing, rendering them meaningless. She stole one city, ruined it, and then left and allowed it to collapse into ruin. Then she stole another city, ruined it too, spent several months getting rekt by the resistance and then burned it down by accident and flew away on a dragon.

Stannis's failures all stem from unexpected circumstances, but Dany's failures were all entirely predictable. Nobody could've seen Blackwater Bay coming, that was Tyrion being a genius, but anyone could've seen the Meereen fuckup a mile away.

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>>52711306
Battle of Pearl Harbor (Battle of Lannisport) Battle of Midway (Fair Isle) and Operation Downfall (Great Wyk)

The Greyjoys struck before Robert could assemble. Victarion Greyjoy and the Iron Fleet sailed into Lannisport and burned the Lannister fleet that was preparing to sail against the Greyjoys. This brazen surprise attack put the Iron Throne on defense. Ironborn raided the West and Rodrik Greyjoy laid siege to Seaguard. Basically, the Greyjoy rebellion got off to a great start, and it may have continued except for a certain Master of Ships.

Stannis, being the master of ships, joined the royal fleet with his former enemy, Paxter Redwyne and sailed north on the Sunset Sea. Off the coast of Fair Isle, he laid a trap for Victarion Greyjoy. Here’s how Victarion remembers it:

The memory of Fair Isle still rankled in the iron captain’s memory. Stannis Baratheon had descended on the Iron Fleet from both north and south whilst they were trapped in the channel between the island and the mainland, dealing Victarion his most crushing defeat. – ADWD, Chapter 56, Victarion I

Stannis’s careful selection of the point where the Iron Fleet was decisive in destroying the Ironborn’s greatest advantage: seapower. With Ironborn seapower destroyed, Robert and his army could move easily into the Iron Islands and destroy the Greyjoy Rebellion.

The actions of Stannis and his fleet cleared the Sunset Sea of the Iron Fleet and allowed for Robert and Ned to ferry soldiers into Pyke for the main assault against the base of Greyjoy power. And while Robert took Pyke, Stannis led the successful invasion of Great Wyck.

>>52711575
Anon please.

They're probably just on a computer from 1985 that will get thrown out by accident.

>>52711179
Hey anon.

I have a question for you.

Do you have anything negative to say about this post?

>>52711639
Martin does all his writing on typewriters.

>>52711569
>implying fAegon has a claim to anything other than a shallow grave in Pentos

Come on, anon.

>>52711639
>>52711659
Jokes aside didn't he confirm he writes all his books on DOS?

>>52710514
Because Stannis is a mannis who works hard for every scrap while she's a SUPER SPESHUL little girl just handed her most valuable assets. In the real world, much less this insanely brutal nightmare she'd be a puppet or dead within a week if the universe didn't keep tripping over itself to hand her shit. Free dragons, her domineering brother dead, her husband dead, etc.

>>52711767
Yeah, I was sure I remembered reading something about him still using the same word processing software he started with in the 80s.

>>52711438
>He arbitrarily decided that he had to be king for literally no reason other than he wanted to be.
>wanting to be king
>arbitrary

>>52711960
Yeah, gonna agree with this. There wasn't anything arbitrary about Renly's ambitions. Foolish and impulsive, maybe, but not arbitrary.

Renly took the opportunity to declare himself king because he rightly assumed no one would willingly choose Stannis's brand of autism over someone like him. Thing is Renly would've been just as terrible a king as Stannis. If Stannis's biggest flaw is he takes everything too seriously, Renly's was he never took anything seriously. Cat herself mused how Renly's entire bid for king was basically throwing a giant Renaissance Faire. Yeah it won a few hearts and minds but Mace Tyrell is a pretty poor ally when you get down to it.

>>52711420
Is he the night's king

>>52710514
Compassionate rulers are shit rulers. The best kings are those completely willing to kill people or get people killed to do what needs to be done. If Danny was a Roman Empress she would get shanked by her Praetorians for being weak. Stannis however would be able to rule.

>>52712466
Dany had no problem murdering people she didn't like. That's how she got the Unsullied.

>Stannis however would be able to rule
Not for long. Everyone hates Stannis because he's a joyless sperg with no compassion at all. He would've been an iron-fisted dictator and those breed rebellion regardless if the rebellion is just or not.

If Westeros was filled exclusively with Ned Starks he'd probably be able to rule pretty well but that's not the case. By the close of Book 5, the closest thing to Ned 2.0 is a teenager who's more interested in stopping the impending zombie invasion, and even then he just lay down for a dirt nap.

>>52710514

You're aware that Daenerys is going mad, right?

Her brain is slowly being eaten because of too much incest. She's going to be one of the mad Dragon-Kings, with a stash of living WMDs.

Basically, shit is going to get fucked up.

Does it matter? Stannis is dead.

>>52710923

You know, thinking about it...Doesn't that just start the cycle of incest all over again?

I mean, Daeny is his aunt, right?

>>52712588
>I mean, Daeny is his aunt, right?

In the show yeah. In the book Jon's origins are still kind of ambiguous. Personally I like the idea Jon actually is Ned's son even if that kind of spits in the face of Mel's spidey-senses.

>>52712581

Interestingly, the book sets up a conflict between Dany and Aegon. A second Dance of the Dragons.

>>52711569
Didn't Varys say he's been working over a decade to make the perfect king?
And doesn't Aegon have the madness of his family?

>>52710514

Television or Books? Makes a hell of a difference. Book Stannis is a good man. Show Stannis is a child murdering fuckwad.

Still probably a better ruler than Dany could ever be regardless.

>>52712547
A compassionate ruler is one who acts like Danny, she was driven to end slavery. A smart and politically adept King or Queen would only do such a thing if it did not weaken their position.

And people can only rebel if there are people left to rebel. Look up the Harrying of the North. If people do not comply, you genocide them.

>>52710514
Daenerys would never work in real life because she gives her people too much freedom. People don't want actual freedom, they want the illusion of it.

>>52710698
Yep, the Stannis/Daenerys argument essentially boils down to popular appeal and its realities.

Daenerys is the cool, popular choice with the peasant appeal and prophecies to bolster support, but GoT shows the reality of giving a sheltered early teen the keys to power through ancient rights/dragons, she fucks up repeatedly because she is all dreams and wishful thinking with no expereince or practicality.

Stannis is the opposite, no awesome prophecies or dragons(although he does hire a witch) he isn't exciting or the chosen one but...he actually knows how to run a kingdom and has practical day to day logitical knowledge.

Its essentially image versus function.

>>52710514
>>52710528
Because he's the one rightful king, do you not understand how lines of succession work? Targaryens lost the throne fair and square Dany can go get fucked.

>“Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.” Donal Noye

What did he mean by this?

>it's a showfags jerk off Daenerys without knowing about the Siege of Meereen and what happened to Astapor and Yunkai after she abandoned them episode

>>52711507
This, stannis won the war as much as his brother. He pinned half the enemy forces for the duration of the whole war.

>>52714048
he means that Robert was the most effective ruler because he was more pragmatic than Stannis but less faggy than Renly

Stannis is the rightful heir to the throne. End of story.

>>52710514
>>>/tv/

Stannis is a boring, stick-in-the-mud, by-the-book person and that's the type of ruler he'd be. Law to the letter every time.

Danny is young and has no idea how to be anything but a conqueror, which she thinks is the same as being a ruler. It's not.

Because for all of Stannis' many flaws he had a strict code of honor and principals. It had been made abundantly clear that he valued talent over lineage, his skill as a combat leader and as a just ruler were likewise unquestioned by literally everyone in the book. He and Eddard are two of a kind. Stannis doesn't play the game because he doesn't give a shit. Just like Eddard. He's stubborn and set in his ways but for people who have gone through the books or the series or are just sick of the constant politics of real life a guy like Stannis has appeal. He's there to do his job. He'll do it well, without complaint, and he'll throw people that try to play politics against him off a wall. That's pretty in vogue right now. Stannis is everything people want out of a leader. Someone fair, competent, and free of corruption. Stannis does what he does because he's technically the rightful king and frankly everyone fucking knows it so he's doesn't really have incentive to legitimize his claim.

>>52711769
>her husband dead
How was this a good thing for her? He JUST agreed to take his Dothraki and conquer Westeros for her.

>>52714048
He means he was gay for Renly.

>>52714583
Renly is gay?

>>52713378
But her house were rulers for 300 years

>>52710514
Daenerys is loved by everyone because she is young, a woman, and she has dragons. She is also an incredibly poor leader, constantly making rash decisions motivated by whims and flimsiness, and unable to grasp the simplest politics. She wins by virtue of having the biggest hammer of the world and a large amount of plot device.

Stannis is hated because he is stern, uncharismatic, and often not understood by those around. He is also a just man, deeply preoccupied by the values and ethics of justice, a military genius beyond measure, and a good politician.

Daenerys is the leader everyone want. Stannis is the one everyone need.

>>52712061

It doesn't really matter that Renly was so frivolous, though. First off, his army was so ridiculously huge that he would have won the crown even without being a skilled strategist. No other army was a match for those numbers. And as for ruling, I don't see a problem there either. All he has to do is make friends (easy for him) and make sure the small council members do their jobs.

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>>52710514

>>52710514
I don't care about either of these dumbos. In fact, I'm just waiting for the Others to wipe out all of Westeros, then jump out of the books and eat GRRM. He's too bad a writer and too fat to live.

>>52714969
>He is also a just man, deeply preoccupied by the values and ethics of justice

Tell that to his daughter.

>>52710514

They're in different fucking countries.

>>52710567

This.Unless Sweden crashes and burns soon, there won't be a Sweden left in 2100.

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>>52710514
>Wouldn't it be better to go for her

>>52715000
>All he has to do is make friends (easy for him) and make sure the small council members do their jobs.

Renly's too much of a dumbass and a pussy to hold the kingdoms together. And a kinslayer on top of that - one who doesn't even follow the rules of the kingdom he purports to rule? At least Robert's rebellion had a pretty good justification. Renly's rebellion? Its only justification was that his army was bigger. Yeah, that sets real great precedence. If he succeeds, what he's doing is just set himself up to be overthrown by the next guy who manages to put a big enough army together, which is gonna start being real easy to do now that he has even further undermined the legitimacy of the throne.

>>52715133
we talk of book!Stannis, not the abomination that is D&D's caricature

>>52715225
Dungeons and Dragons?

>>52710970
I'd pay good money to see Jon Snow get killed again.

Hate the little shit more than any sane person should hate a fictional character.

>>52714759
>Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I'll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.
Yeah.

>>52715240
David Benioff and DB Weiss

>>52715141
This.

"I'll send a raven across the Narrow Sea, and tell them that I support the usurper over there, instead of the usurper over here!"

>>52715286
Ah, yes.
Those motherfuckers.
What a pair of tools.

>>52710514
Stannis = Putin.
Here you go.

>Lawful Lawful vs le chaotic good meme

Stannis is the principled choice. He might as well have written Meditations.

>>52715466
>implying daenerys is good

Reminder that the future Hand Ser (Lord?) Davos will fix any problems the Mannis' unbreakable will could cause.

>>52710560
>who is Olga of Kiev?

>>52715831
who

>>52715852
A woman from kiev

>>52712623
But Aegon doesn't have any dragons

>>52715852
If don't know if this is bait or you're this retarded.

>>52717838

You're aware that the Dance of the Dragons is because both were members of House Targayen, right? The fact that actual dragons were involved are basically incidental.

>>52717977
The civil war shouldn't even have happened. God damn hightowers

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>>52715852
>Pretends to be redpilled
>Doesn't even know history

>>52710514

Daenerys is a complete shit leader who Mary Sue's her way to victory every time. Basically everyone does everything for her because of XYZ reason. Stannis would have made a solid king, but his extremes and burning people isn't

The ideal kingdom would be one with Ned Stark on the Throne and Post Nose Tyrion as the hand. Ned could be substituted for one of his kids or Jon. King needs to be someone who believes in doing what is right and is strong enough to make tough decisions. The hand needs to be someone smart enough to ensure that course of action happens.

Everyone else is pretty shit at it.

>>52715831
St Olga didn't do anything remarkable. Her greatest accomplishment is burning a bunch of Belaruisans alive in a bathhouse.

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>>52718432
And extermination a bunch of Ukrainians

>>52711612
>Rightful king of Westeros
That "right" is literally only based on military power. Anybody who has the might to take the throne has just as much right to rule Westeros as anybody with Targaryen or Baratheon blood.

>>52711507
And let's not forget that he utterly broke the Iron islander fleet during their jnsurrection.

Robert repaid this loyalty and skill by giving the ancestral Baratheon seat to his useless youngest brother and further banished Stannis to watch over a sterile rock and its unimportant lords. Finally, he even saw fit to humiliate Stannis at his own wedding by fucking a woman in his bed.

And yet Stannis remained loyal to a King who humiliated, mocked, and abused him.

Is Selyse Baratheon /ourgal/?

>>52710514
>Her liberation of the slaves is pretty admirable
So what did that do besides make herself happier & the slave owners unhappy? Her "freed" slaves, the Unsullied, they continued serving her all the same. Behavior wise, they're unchanged.

>>52715831
Catherine the Great, too.

So good that the propaganda her enemies made is still taken at face value by idiots today.

Queen Elizabeth probably qualifies.

Thatcher fucked over her economy, but stepped on the throat of Societ-backed commie fifth columnists and humiliated a thieving bunch of third world apes that thought they could take from the Crown.

Weirdly, peasant lunatic Jane d'Arc.

>>52718975
Jeanne, fucking autocorrect.

>>52718432
>>52718535
Well you know, someone's gotta take out the trash occasionally.

>>52715279
You're not alone Anon, I can't even tell you why I hate him. I just do.

>>52718975
Brit here, Queen Elizabeth I was fine, but didn't really excel. She just held the country steady enough for life to get back on track, and happened to be in power when God himself fucked the Spanish.

>>52715418
Nah, he is too good and honourable of a man to be Putin.

Stannis probably would have been much happier being a simple knight who didn't need to think about politics.

>>52710514
>>>/tv/

>>52719277
Tywin - Putin as portrayed in the media.
Stannis - Putin as he actually is.

>>52710970
If there is any justice in Westeros Dany will be killed, and not in a glorious epic way either. A shitty, insignificant way.

>>52719647
Congenial heart defect from all the incest?

>>52719296
>implying anyone here's talking about tv

>>52719560
Where are all of Stannis' oligarchs?

>>52719861
Thankfully dead

>>52719560
>Putin
>As Stannis or Tywin
>Not Little Finger

>>52710514
>and unlike Stannis, she can make compromises with people.
Your joking right?

>>52720803
She actually did make compromises with people, and they even worked. Then she decided: "Wait, no, compromises suck. Fire and blood!" and flew away on a dragon.

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>>52720925
What a wise and caring leader.

>>52720803
>>52720925
Her compromises were basically to return Mereen to its shitty durka culture.

She can't fucking make up her mind on whether or not she's on charge, and whether she wants to be stern or forgiving. Fucking pick a side. If you're gonna crucify the nobles, crucify ALL of the nobles, don't only do a few and piss off the rest.

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>>52720746
This happy merchant is the Littlefinger of Russian politics.

>>52721205
>Her compromises were basically to return Mereen to its shitty durka culture.
That's not even remotely true. She opened the fighting pits, she married Hizdahr and allowed slaves to sell themselves. This is called a reasonable compromise, and it actually got Meereen to finally accept her as a ruler.
Which, naturally, resulted in Shavepate poisoning the locusts to destabilize the situation, and then Dany throwing a hissy fit over diplomacy being too hard and unsatisfying.

>>52721231
Rowen Atkinson?

>>52715204
>Its only justification was that his army was bigger
Nah, it was because people would unite under his banner and with his big army he would be able to quell any opposition and set realm at peace, while Stannis, despite being rightful, would not be followed by many and realme reamins in unrest and civil war. So yeah, it was not lawful, but it was common sense for the benefit of all. And come on, like Mace wouldn't be able to hold everything together while Renly fucked around on tournaments.

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>>52721334

>>52710514
In the show I think danny is going to get to Not!europe from Not!middle-east and decimates all the southern houses with her dragons and sand niggers. When she turns her sight on the north she attempts to invade but she pulls a Germany/France and half her army, who is unsuited to cold, dies while Jon barely even notices while he's busy fortifying the wall like Dorn. In the end Danny gets to winter hold with her dragons and a quarter of her army and demands surrender. Jon agrees because he has more important things to worry about and fucks off back to the wall leaving Sansa behind.

>>52721391
And why was he rebelling against Joffrey, again?

>>52711507
I would bet he would still hold it the same way even if it wasn't so important, he simply wouldn't be abel to bend and yeld.

>>52721417
Because Ned inadvertently spilled the beans about Joffrey's illigitimacy.

>>52721481
Except Renly believes none of that shit, which he confirms repeatedly. Why is he rebelling against Joffrey?

>>52721391
Has Mace been complemented, in any respect, by anyone ever?

>>52721516
Loras thinks he would look hot in a crown.

>>52721516
Because whether he believes it or not is irrelevant. It's a chance to take the throne. And keep the Lannisters off it.

Renly was ambitious, not smart.

>>52721516
You don't have to believe your king's a bastard to hate him, and Renly was kind of a fucking idiot.

>>52721517
Not sure about that, but i am pretty sure Tyrells as a whole would be able to do the day to day rulership of the kingdom, they just lacked the ability to take it by themselves. Otherwise they are pretty practical and without major conflicts within them.

>>52721516
Perhaps he though that living under de-facto rule of Tywin would not end well for him?

>>52721646
Thing with the Tyrells and especially Mace is they're transparent opportunists. They're not quite as bad as they Freys since most of them are actually honest and honorable but anyone with a brain can see through them. But the fact they can make or break a testy political situation with the sheer amount of food they produce means they're good allies to have. You just need to make sure you can convince them you're the winning team.

Stannis couldn't do this, mostly because he vowed retribution for them supporting Renly. So they became Lannister goons instead.

>>52721717
This the only honorable house in the reach are the florents

>>52721883
Tarlys aren't too bad. Randall is just kind of spergy.

>>52721883
>Florents
Finally! I have been waiting ages for the greatest of houses in the Reach to get their spotlight. The true lords of Highgarden that continue the struggle to depose the Tyrell pretenders, and the most loyal of houses to the one true king of Westeros, Stannis Baratheon.

I feel it best to highlight the awesomeness of this house by detailing its many distinguished members.

Selyse Florent: The One True Queen of Westeros, the lovely Selyse is a devoutly religious woman of the strongest moral standing. Unlike every other woman calling herself "Queen" in Westeros, she alone isn't being tried for being a whore.

Axell Florent: A MAN OF THE WORLD and the Hand to the One True Queen of Westeros. Axell is a noble and dependable man that is loved and envied by all around him. Currently betrothed to the oldest daughter of Gerrick Kingsblood, thus giving him royal ties to the Wildlings as well.

Imry Florent: Bravely led Stannis's fleet into the Battle of the Blackwater. Surely died early in the fight due to treachery, because all agree the outcome would have been far different otherwise.

Alester Florent: He temporarily lost the faith, and to repent, he willingly allowed himself to be burnt alive in order to provide Stannis's fleet with strong winds to reach the Wall in time and stop Mance Rayder. The NW and the entire realm is in his eternal debt.

Colin Florent: After the Battle of the Blackwater, the illborn pretender to the throne Joffrey claimed that House Florent was "attainted" and had the audacity to name Garlan Tyrell as Lord of Brightwater Keep. Well, three books later and pompous sellout opportunist jerkoff Garlan has yet to set foot in Brightwater Keep, because Colin Florent has been holding it down like a BOSS. Keep in mind that he is literally surrounded by enemies on all sides. Let them come, his sword THIRSTS.

>>52710514
Didn't he die or something?

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>>52722084
Alekyne Florent: Current Lord of Brightwater Keep, Alekyne is currently in Old Town, plotting his next move with the Hightowers. Make no mistake, he isn't "hiding," he is "planning" something. Planning something big. Do not underestimate the cunning of the fox!

Samwell Tarly: Literally every one of his positive attributes come from his Florent blood. I here he's a pretty smart cookie.

Melessa Tarly: A loving mother stuck with a douche of a husband. Sam is convinced that he can send Gilly and her baby to his home and they will be cared for, solely due to his mother. Given who his father is, that speaks volumes as to how awesome Melessa is.

Edric Storm: A fine young lad, eternally noble and proud. Showed eternal respect and love towards his father, even though his father was a prick that didn't care about him at all.

Shireen Baratheon: The heir to the throne, Princess Shireen is pure innocence and a true delight for the realm.

The nameless Florent bastard that refused to bend his knee to Joffrey after the Battle of the Blackwater and said right to his face that Stannis would be back and would totally kick his ass: This man was a legend. Eternal respect.

I could go on for days as to the glory of House Florent, but I'll summarize some key points:

House Florent loyally followed Stannis Baratheon despite being totally surrounded by enemies in the Reach as a result. That's how much their faith means to them. This wasn't just because Selyse was married to him, and it wasn't just because his was the true claim: The pretenders on the throne spread ridiculous rumors about Selyse cheating on her husband with Patchface. The Florents defend their own, and will not tolerate such slander and disgraceful behavior!

House Florent has a badass sigil. Seriously, that fox runs circles around the Tyrell rose for free.

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>>52722154

The Tyrells are a bunch of know-it-all pretty boys/girls that think they are the golden children of Westeros. The Florents are the scrappy underdogs that straight up have a better claim to Highgarden than these pompous jerks. How can you not root for them to knock the Tyrells down a peg or two?

While everyone is busy playing the game of thrones, House Florent's primary concern right now is dealing with the REAL enemy: The Others. This makes them part of a very very select few houses that actually GIVES A DAMN ABOUT WHAT MATTERS.

They are one of the biggest houses that we don't actually know the motto of yet! They are mysterious, that's awesome. Whatever their House words are, I guarantee they are better than "Growing Strong."

In closing: Screw Randyll Tarly. Screw the Tyrells. Screw the current pretenders on the throne. Screw The Others. Haters gonna hate. All hail the true Lords of the Reach!

>>52714841

And were overthrown in a revolt.

With the next of kin to the trone being staniss.

Though might mights right. so whomever has the might to take the throne has the right to sit on it.

>>52721516
Renly is given to fits of fancy, and Loras encouraged him (likely doing the bidding of his family). Once the bug of power is allowed to bite, the poison works fast. Why kowtow to a vicious cretin like Joffrey your entire life? Why place second fiddle to the Lannisters? His brother took the golden ring, and if Renly's sure of one thing, it's that he's smarter and more deserving than EITHER of his brothers.

>>52710528
Yes, you are exactly right

>>52721259
Hizdahr is gonna end up being the leader of the Sons of the Harpy in the books.

>>52720746
Nah, Poots is Roose Bolton.

>>52721414
dumbass show poster, dorne supports daenarys

>>52710514
Dany is a spoiled brat who has everything handed to her because she's the most prettiest, most perfectest girl to ever live. Also everybody loves her and she has magical dragons as pets ;D.

Conversely, nobody really likes Stannis. Every positive thing that people (other than Davos) has to say about him comes out as an insult. He's cold, stubborn, and unlikable. But he's the only person who takes being a king seriously. Everybody else runs around acting like being a king is some party and war is an opportunity for glory, but Stannis knows that he has a duty to his people and does not delight in war.

>>52722554
I should have phrased this as nobody in-universe likes Stannis, this makes him a likeable underdog for us readers.

>>52710514
She's a woman and female leaders make certain people uncomfortable. No deeper reason.

>>52722191
>>52722154
>>52722084
Wtf I love House Florent now?

>>52711306
>> Hurr Durr I only watch the shit tv show, what is the Greyjoy Rebellion? Stannis had NOTHING to do with that! HURR DURR
KYS.

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>>52722672

>>52711306
>Stannis who annihilated the ironborn navy
>militarily incompetent.

>>52711569
this
>trained from birth to lead
>has the natural charisma of a targ
>has the golden company who will follow him to the bitter end.
>knows the human costs of his decisions.

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>>52722752
>>52722154
>>52722084

>>52723072
>wanting another white male to run Westeros into the ground
The sand snakes shall be out queens.

>>52723171
The sandsnakes are white.

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>>52723131
10/10 ears
have a bitterfeel

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>>52723289
Yeah sure they are

>>52723315
Tyene is white.

>Daenerys is clearly more compassionate and understanding of her subjects than Stannis
She isn't She is extremely naive, and doesn't understand the subtleties of ruling a multi-class society with many conflicting interests. At best only the extremely poor like her.
>It's quite impressive that she was able to take three prominent cities in Slaver's Bay despite being a foreign teenager
How is it impressive? She got the most elite fighting force in Essos handed to her on a plate, one of the most capable military commanders of Westeros on a plate, and several good officers from a mercenary company handed to her on a plate. Moreover, in the books, she has already lost all but Mereen. Yunkai reverted back to slavery in an instant, and Astapor was restored back to slavery because Dany couldn't beat the Yunkish. She is shock and awe, nothing more.
>And has a notion of right and wrong.
What? You're listing basic human emotions as pro's? Stannis has a notion of right and wrong too, and a lot more consistent one.

>Her liberation of the slaves is pretty admirable, and unlike Stannis, she can make compromises with people.
It's not at all admirable. In Astapor she burst in, freed the slaves and Astapor reverted back to slavery. In Yunkai she burst in, freed the slaves and Yunkai reverted back to slavery. In Mereen, where she actually decided to govern, poverty went rampant and she had to allow slaves to be sold back to slavery. "she can make compromises" what? Like abandoning all the things which, according to you, make her a good ruler? Okay.

tl;dr GRRM was born in 1948. He was a draft dodger, and a fairly liberal journalism student. So it is fairly reasonable assume that he was familiar with the hippie/anti-war/pacifist-idealist movement of that era. Dany is supposed to parallel that. A naive youth, who doesn't really understand the world around her and tries to change it all. In the end she just molds into the status quo. It is already happening in the books.

>>52723072
>has the natural charisma of a targ
>targaryens
>charisma
Just because they're pretty doesn't make it any nicer when they go mad and set you on fire.

>>52710998
>not rooting for ice zombies from start

Aegon wins because power resides where people think it resides, and because he's clearly the most qualified to be king.

This isn't traditional games.
Fuck off to >>>/lit/

>>52723955
>Aegon
>qualified

Fuck off, Varys.

>>52710514
Stannis is the reversal of who should be the epitome of a villain.
>He's the dour, unliked younger brother of the king
>lives on a giant black Dragon-Fortress in the Sea, gathering castouts and religious zealots to his banner
>Said to be "the chosen one" of the strange eastern religion of fire and blood sacrifice

Instead, he's an honorable reluctant king that is the only one to take the task of ruling the Seven Kingdoms seriously. Most characters in the books whose viewpoints we see are characters that should hate Stannis. All, in fact, except for Davos, Jon and Samwell. Perhaps coincidentally, these are the three characters with the least personally at stake in the war of the Five Kings.

tl;dr we should hate Stannis, and Westeros does, but he's the real hero.

ASoIaF is all about character reversals and subverting expectations.

>>52718662
Dragonstone was the traditional seat of the heir to the throne, which stannis was until joffrey was born. Also, while the land and holdings aren't amazing, it was the core of targ loyalty and did need a Robert-loyal overlord to keep an eye on it. Robert could have kept both it and storm's end for his future kids, but gave them to his brothers because he was generous.

>>52710560
muh boudica

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>>52710514
>Her liberation of the slaves is pretty admirable

>>52725196
boudica got fucking destroyed my dude

>>52725153
But he's right you know

>>52725731
>right

He's talking about a kid he hasn't seen in ages who's biggest influence is the despondent wannabe lover of his supposed father. The supposed "genius leader" who's only actual move so far to demonstrate any of this "genius" has been to take his army of ten thousand and attack one of the strongest fortresses in Westeros while the Lannister and Tyrell armies are still in the region and able to link up and destroy him.

More than anything, Aegon is living under the shadow of Dany having done more than him despite him being the one that's been chosen as the test tube king. Aegon just has good hype people, but as far as candidates go, he's untested and hasn't really shown much.

>>52725166
>Instead, he's an honorable reluctant king
>Stannis
>honorable
He murdered his own brother with dark magic. We can go back and forth on how Renly may have deserved to die for open rebellion against his rightful king but it doesn't change the fact Stannis used blatantly shifty and dishonorable means.

I think people generally miss the point of Stannis's bid for power. He does it all 100% because he thinks he's supposed to. He has no real desire to restore peace and justice. His war is completely because his autism-rattled mind thinks the world will break if he doesn't take his seat.

Stannis would ultimately be a terrible king. Sure, he's more competent than most of the people vying for the throne. He'd do a decent job at first of cracking down on the political chaos the realm is currently suffering but the Throne would eventually break him and he'd die early to a rebellion or rage-induced aneurysm. He lacks any of the charisma and social skill a truly good leader needs. He'd rule as an iron-fisted tyrant and this breeds dissent. Even Ned Stark was good at making most people like him. Stannis simply can't do that. He believes everyone just kind of hates him. The only real friend he has is Davos, who is an exception to people's perspectives on Stannis's sense of justice rather than the norm.


>>52725186
>Robert could have kept both it and storm's end for his future kids, but gave them to his brothers because he was generous.

This, honestly. Giving Dragonstone to Stannis was a generous gesture but Stannis just took it as his jock older brother patronizing him. That kind of persecution complex doesn't lend itself well to leadership.

>>52722374
Except Roos is an Other wearing the skin of a man and he's gonna jump into the Bastard's skin so that no one cops wise that Roos hasn't aged in 20 years.

>>52722374
They have a certain visual resemblance, other than that, not seeing it.

>>52725903
>Giving Dragonstone to Stannis was a generous gesture.
No

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>>52725844
>His war is completely because his autism-rattled mind thinks the world will break if he doesn't take his seat.
The world is breaking anon. From all the Tyrell-Lannister Bullshit.

>Stannis would ultimately be a terrible king.
For the Nobles and anyone else who plays the game of cloaks and daggers. Any person who just wants to live their life without any bullshit would be indifferent.

>He'd do a decent job at first of cracking down on the political chaos the realm is currently suffering but the Throne would eventually break him and he'd die early to a rebellion or a rage-induced aneurysm.
Either He breaks or the Iron Thrones Breaks. And Given Stannis Hasn't broken under the Failure of his Initial Campaign I doubt it.

>He'd rule as an iron-fisted tyrant and this breeds dissent.
I mean he did manage to Sway the Lords fervent loyalist to Targaryen to him.

>>52710514
Mary Sue, everything goes her way even when she fucks up.

>>52726664
Everything this anon said is correct, the nobles have grown out of control due to a series of weak kings. The iron throne must be ruled with an iron fist for the realm to prosper.

I don't think that the people of Westeros are going to like the rape/murder horde that is the bulk of Daenerys army. And i belive that the Dothraki will be okey with being forced to change that.
Also, 98% of Daenerys have never seen snow but she will invade during winter. How fucked is she?

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>>52727103
>How fucked is she?
She's is either Napoleon fuck or Hitler-tier Fucked.

>>52710514
>Her liberation of the slaves is pretty admirable
Creating more underqualified unemployment isn't good.

>>52715831
Very few female rulers, most of them aren't recognised by laymen.

>>52727140
There will be so many frozen off toes

>>52710514
>Why do people go to Stannis instead of Daenerys?

When it comes to the books, Stannis is generally one of the least shitty people in (and beyond) the Seven Kingdoms to potentially support when it comes to the bid for the Throne. He's one of the few people to pay attention to the Happenings Beyond the Wall, has at least two braincells to rub together that aren't pickled or malformed from incest, has the benefit of (mostly) good council with the added bonus of it typically mitigating his worst flaws instead of exacerbating them (emphasis mostly and typically), and looks to have at least some motivation in pursuing the Iron Throne beyond "It'll look good on my resume!" / "I'll show them, I'll show them all!" This may not be much when looking for king material, but when you look at his competition (as well as the looming Winter / Night's King when the Game of Thrones comes to an end and his experience as a military general) it's enough for many of the people who aren't thinking "Is equality in undeath really THAT bad a possible fate for Westeros?"

When it comes to the TV show, however? HARD MAN, HARD DECISIONS mostly.

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>"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

Is he dare I say /ourguy/?

>>52714841
>But her house were rulers for 300 years
>were rulers
>were
The only reason they even had the throne in the first place was by taking it, isn't it fitting they lose it the same way? Aw shit that was probably some kind of intentional lucasesque poetry.

>>52714048
Before we had superhero films and obscure sexual fetishes to understand the world through they had to rely on more primitive metaphors such as metals. What a primitive time.

>>52715000
Renly would've just run the kingdom like a gayer version of Robert, that is straight into the ground. Only thing that would've changed would've been the gender of the whores, and there'd be a whole new reason for why the king has no natural born children.

>>52729188
>A joyless autist with a persecution complex and an insatiable drive to get the job done, and will ultimately be undone by his own inflexibility.

I can honestly see why /tg/ likes him so much.

>>52717878
Or maybe they're not an expert on russian history?

>>52718327
>you can't recognize the name of an obscure orthodox saint most well known for being the regent of a predecessor state to Russia for 18 years til her son could take the throne
>therefore you don't know history
Why couldn't the guy have just said Catherine the Great? Everyone knows who she was and she was, well, great. Died fucking a horse too.

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>>52718432
Also her son achieved significantly more then she did and in half the time.

The red shows the borders he started with (ie what Olga had), the orange indicates what he ended with.

What a bizarre example to use, is there something I'm missing?

>>52714841
The Starks have been Kings of the North for like 7000 years, and only got downgraded to "Wardens" because of Dragons.

>>52722672
>She's a woman and female leaders make certain people uncomfortable.
Only feminists and only when they're right wing leaders.

>>52725903
>wanting to live by the laws of your society makes you an autist

>>52724949
/lit/ or /tv/, it's all the same. But what else could you expect from the dullest franchise in the history of tv franchises. Seriously each episode following Daenerys and her wyvern pals as they fight assorted shitlords has been indistinguishable from the others. Aside from the gloomy imagery, the series’ only consistency has been its lack of excitement and ineffective use of special effects, all to make magic unmagical, to make action seem inert.

Perhaps the die was cast when GRRM vetoed the idea of Spielberg directing the series; he made sure the series would never be mistaken for a work of art that meant anything to anybody. Just ridiculously profitable cross-promotion for his books which he will never finish before dying of fat. The GoT series might be anti-Tolkien (or not), but it’s certainly the anti-fantasy series in its refusal of wonder, beauty and excitement. No one wants to face that fact. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to.

>a-at least the books were good though
"No!"

The writing is dreadful; the book was terrible. As I read, I noticed that every time a character went for a walk, the author wrote instead that the character "dies."

I began marking on the back of an envelope every time that phrase was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several hundred times. I was incredulous. GRRM's mind is so governed by cliches and literal shit metaphors that he has no other style of writing. Later I read a lavish, loving review of GoT by a Redditor. He wrote something to the effect of, "If these kids are reading GRRM at 11 or 12, then when they get older they will go on Reddit." And he was quite right. He was not being ironic. When you read "GoT" you are, in fact, trained to be a Redditor.

>>52710514
Because the former employs the Onion Knight. The latter only gets her followers killed.

>>52726664
Um...buddy...I was saying why Aegon wouldn't be Varys' ideal genius king?

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>>52722672
Good job! You identified the problem!

Now go play with your siblings and let the adults talk, okay? :)

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>>52730104
Kek. Varys will be probably be pissed that his golden boy in which he fucked over three different kings will turn out to be a failure.

>>52710514
Because everything you said isn't true in the books.

Go to /tv/ or /lit/ by the way.

>>52711450
>basically Deanerys whole arc is if you inserted Twilight into Berserk. Everything about it is wrong and jarring. At least the flawed but well-intentioned Stannis fits the tone of the fucking story
Yeah. I never really understood that.

>>52714841
House Baratheon was started by bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror, Orthys Baratheon, who married the only daughter of ruler of Storm's End.

Also, grandmother of Robert and his brothers was a Targaryen, so Rebellion had a leader with legitimate claim to the throne.

>>52717838
Daenerys won't have more than 1 dragon by the time we will see her again. The other two needs their own riders, because mother can't keep control over them anymore.

>>52719647
Fucking this.

>>52722084
>>52722154
>>52722191
You forgot Edric Storm - bastard of Robert and some Florent girl he shagged in wedding bed of Stannis during said wedding.
He's a nobleborn bastard, who is already swinging a hammer as a kid.

>>52710514

Daenerys leaves nothing but chaos wherever she goes, she's overly emotional, has no experience dealing with the real world, and has to rely on her dragons and waving her vag at men to get anything done.

Stannis the Mannis is realistic, gets shit done, won't let anything get in his way, is the rightful heir, knows how to rule, and is the best hope against the Others.

Basically, you can either pick a child-whore with an ego problem, or you can pick an experienced leader that never compromises.

Why did Barristan run off to Dany over Stannis?

>>52732325
Because Targs were his original masters.

> Slowly going insane
> Didn't realist that that farmer with the dead baby was probably making shit up because she gave a goat herder tons of money because he asked nicely
> Probably gonna wind up shagging her nephew
> Young Griff is clearly the better choise, and if he's a Blackfyre, even better! The Blackfyres are considerably more geneticly healthy than the Targaryens

>>52718975
As a Brit, Thatcher certainly didn't help, but it was Scargill spazzing out and forcing a strike when Thatcher originally wanted to slowly and responsibly close down the mines.

Either way, she was a strong leader, being a woman doesn't really come into it (which, if you want to have female leadership in a story, writing them as a strong leader irrespective of gender is how you write a good one).

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>>52732027
>and is the best hope against the Others.

No, that'd be the one with the dragons, as per the title of the series.

>>52732409
You would think it's the one who is Ice and Fire wouldn't you? Rather than just Fire.

>>52732409
>implying fire doesn't refer to the chosen of r'hllor >implying dany isn't just a distraction

>>52710998

This became the obvious choice early on. Everyone in power is either psychotic, over-the-top evil, hopelessly naive, or stupid. More power to the Night King.

>>52732368
>Who is Maelys the Monstrous
BIDF, pls leave.

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>>52732524
>Who is Maelys the Monstrous
A fucking Dumbass who killed the second to last male claimant because he told him his plan would never work.

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>>52713378
>>52714176
If he's so rightful, why isn't he king yet? Military might is really all that matters in deciding who is the rightful king, and his might has as of yet proven insufficient.

>>52732325
Because after like 20 years of serving a fat, whoring usurper, he was in no mood to have his vows further debased at the whims of a brotherfucker and her as-cruel-as Aerys son.

>>52731970
No, he did not, Edric is in there

>>52733130
>her as-cruel-as Aerys son.

Okay we can all agree Joffrey was fucking close but his worse excesse's WERE curbed by Tyrion and later Tywin when they could

>>52733195
Tywin kept a tight ship for Aerys too, until they managed to pass each other off enough to get Tywin bounced.

>>52733195
The war says otherwise

>>52733592
The war was brewing regardless of Joffrey, even if he wasn't the heir to the throne the rumours of their lineage was poison enough to ive renly and stannis grounds for a bid for the throne

Joffrey just bought the starks into it

What is the proof that the Shavepate poisoned the locusts?

>>52733610
This poster has it right. Renly wanted to throw down with Tyrrels even before Robert died (does anybody remember that really weird moment when Renly asks Ned if Margaery looks like Lyanna?), while Stannis investigated Jon Arryn's death and saw Joffrey's illegitimacy in the flames.
Balon would have rebelled too, no matter who the king was, because he's a fucking retard.

>>52725903
He's not honorable. But that doesn't make him wrong. Its his fucking throne. By law. God forbid a society follows its own goddamned laws.

>>52733665
>Balon would have rebelled too, no matter who the king was, because he's a fucking retard.
It's interesting that all the sons are fuck ups since their dad was actually intelligent but apparently couldn't manage his sons for some fucking reason so they turn the Iron Islands into the grave islands.

>>52733691
>Its his fucking throne.

House Targaryen might beg to differ.

>>52733652
>Shavepate is the only one who has the motive.
Sons of Harpy were mad and killed people because Dany wouldn't stop shitting on their culture and gave meereenese nobles no respect. After she opened the fighting pits and married Hizdahr, the Harpy got what they wanted. What's there to gain from poisoning the locusts?
Shavepate is another deal. He was virtually a nobody before Dany ascended to the throne, a minor house, but the tide of change made him important.
But now, Dany is suddenly making compromises and allies with his enemies. She's making Hizdahr, whom Shavepate fucking hates, a king. So Shavepate panicks - he needs to stop this somehow. So he poisons the locusts.

>Daenerys wasn't the target.
If the Harpy (Green Grace) wanted to poison Dany, she would not poison the locusts. She would not poison any of the gross ghiscari food, because she knows Dany doesn't eat any of this shit. It's revolting.
But Shavepate WOULD poison the locusts. Not to poison Daenerys, of course - because that would be biting the hand that feeds. Dany is good for him, he can't kill her.
But if he manages to create an illusion of somebody trying to poison Dany, and then frames Hizdahr for doing it, he would prevent the marriage and create tension between Daenerys and the Harpy again.

When Daenerys flies away, Shavepate changes his plans only slightly - now he needs to worm his way into Barristan's trust. It pays off - Barristan soon becomes sure that Hizdahr did it, arrests him and takes power into his own hands, with Shavepate being his chief advisor.
Which is exactly what Shavepate wanted all along.

>>52733772
https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/

Here's a rundown on the whole locust thing.

Who has the better cavalry?

>>52733792
thank you.

>>52733731
House Targaryen only won the throne because fucking dragons. The moment the dragons died the Tararyens went to utter shit and the only decent one started a civil war to bang some northern girl.

>>52733936
The North.

>>52734310
At least they actually won the throne, which is more than Stannis has managed to do

>>52710514
>Daenerys is clearly more compassionate and understanding of her subjects

No she impoverished and killed half her subjects. The slavers were people to and she dismantled their economy, traditions and way of life through force. It is no different then if Stannis decided to throw the nobles out of Westros.

>Her liberation of the slaves is pretty admirable
no it wasn't. Yes ending slavery s admirable but she is literally breaking a system and not putting anything new in to replace the old. Hell everytime Dany has tried to save slaves it back fires (gets Drogo killed, loses cities, gets revolts). It is amazing the Unsullied didn't revolt

>It's quite impressive that she was able to take three prominent cities in Slaver's Bay despite being a foreign teenager
You can capture cities as much as you like but if they revolt and betray you the moment you leave then you haven't done anything but waste lives and resources

>And has a notion of right and wrong.
so did Robb and Ned Stark, look where they are.

>>52710698
>a little less fanatical
he's a lot less fanatical if we're comparing him to his last appearances
>TOO pragmatic
No, I'd say his lack of pragmatism is his main character trait - he doesn't even want the job of king. IIRC he acknowledges that Renly would make a better king, and supporting him would be the best option. But he can't, because he feels like the right of succession has to come first.

>>52732447
>>52732027
>>52732409
>muh prophecies
the Others haven't even done anything bad yet, the solution to them will probably have more to do with Bran or Samwell Tarly than any army, the armies are just fodder

>>52733731
House Targaryen isn't in Westeros, now is it? Yes, Daenerys has a claim because her family USED to rule. Then they were kicked off by the Baratheons. Its moronic to think that she has a better claim than Stannis does, since his family is the current ruler.

>>52733665
yeah people seem to forget that Renly's plan before Robert died was to replace Cersei with Margaery, which only works if he knew/suspected about the incest. The only reason he doesn't openly acknowledge it afterwards is because pretending Joffrey is legitimate makes him and Stannis both rebels, instead of an opportunist and the legitimate heir.

>>52710514

Most nerds don't want to see compassion for others. They want to see their enemies punished because they are frustrated with their own lack of power and agency. That's why they flock to Stannis, they think "He'll sort out the riff-raff" never thinking that they could be on the wrong end of his pointy stick.

>>52734682
I'm not sure why creating massive unemployment is compassionate but ok.

>>52725903
>shifty and dishonorable means

I remember a passage in an annotated version of the art of war mocking this idea. A war costs resources, lives and time. Saying that killing a single man to win it is somehow immoral is grotesque.

>>52734721

Yeah man, unemployment is totes more evil than slavery. Good reasoning there, bro.

This tastes like bait.

Danny is ignorant, naive and teeters between too much compassion and not enough flexibility.

Stannis is utterly inflexible, blunt to the point of insult and has very little tolerance for anything that falls outside his view of right.

Each displays their flaws in the series and/or books. Danny has been dealing with rebellion since day one because she can't find or accept the balance needed and Stannis shows every day how baddly he would need capable and loyal underlings who would by need, lie to him

>>52714428
>Someone fair, competent, and free of corruption.

Except for using a burning cult as a tool to gain power, and using shadow magic to assassinate his own brother.

>>52734765
>slaves are given whatever necessities they may need to be useful to their master, including food and shelter (usually)
>the unemployed can starve to death and lose their homes
But it's okay because they're free :^)

>>52734765
Slavery pre Daenerys
>people treat you like scum
>have to work all the time for nobles for little benefit
>food and boarding
Unemployment post Daenerys
>people treat you like scum
>have to work all the time for a queen for little benefit
>starvation and living in the streets
>end up selling yourself as a slave anyway
>may be randomly killed by anti-dragon terrorists

>>52734812
>the slaves were really lucky to have masters that took care of them!

Let me guess, you're from the South?

You could just, you know, actually pay them for the work they were doing like a decent fucking human being.

>>52734836
It's not like Dany enforced paying slaves, so what are you arguing here?

>>52734836
>board
>food
>not fair and just compensation
Stop projecting 21st century morals onto ye feudal fantasy land dim bulb.

>>52734859

Do you have that hard of a time following a pretty linear argument? People from the South argued for ages that black people were happier being slaves because they got room and board for their work, and outside of being a slave they'd be poor and homeless. It wasn't a compelling argument back then and it isn't a compelling argument now, it's just made by assholes who have never been in a position where they've been in danger of their basic human dignity being stripped from them.

>People are unironically arguing that Dany destroying slavery didn't make the situation worse
Slaves are still poor, but now they are also starving. A huge improvement.

>>52734905
Anon, getting people out of slavery is only a good thing if they're actually capable of improving their situation afterwards.

>muh human dignity
It may surprise you to learn this, but most people won't give a shit about dignity if doing so will make them suffer.

>>52734938

You know what, you're right. Dany should have just flipped it. Everyone who's an owner is now a slave. Everyone who's a slave is now an owner.

>>52734970
>implying that would have been any more viable

>>52734970
You know, we rightfully mocked this whole "take everything money and redistribute it!" mocked even after the revolution. I doubt you even understand why you sound like a huge retard right now.

>>52734968

Anyone with free agency is capable of improving their situation afterwards. You know who can't improve their situation? A fucking slave.

>muh

It may surprise you to learn this, but people will prefer to be poor and independent rather than well-fed and a slave.

>>52735003
Who are those "people" you're talking about? Because I'd rather be a slave, than starve to death. Sure, being a slave fucking sucks, but you know what sucks more? Dying.

>>52734938

Everyone's starving now, Mereeen as Xaro noted is dying because of Dany. Her children suffer, and I was going to make a comparison to her dead womb but I'm not clever enough for that.

What the FUCK does "I will break the wheel" even mean, when the Targaryens are a spoke?

>>52735003
>people will prefer to be poor and independent rather than well-fed and a slave.
It's funny to me that you believe this.

>>52735034
Please don't bring up the show. She never said it in the books, probably because it's dumb as fuck.

>>52710514
Why dont they marry?

>>52735029
>>52735046

Hey man, that's why all those black people in the South said "Gosh, thanks Mr. Lincoln, we certainly 'preciate that whole freedom thang, but wes jus want our warm beds and hot meals."

Who knows, maybe you're so delusional you think that happened.

>>52735052
Speaking of the show, I can't be the only one annoyed at how D&D simplified and dumbed down basically every conflict and story.

>The Faith of the Seven having legitimate points and grievances? Fuck that, they are ISIS now. They hate women and homos, and torture them!
>The Night Watch having any legitimate points and grievances? Fuck that, they kill Jon Snow because they are huge fucking racists.
>Meereen being a hot bed of problems with no easy answers? Fuck that. Daenerys defeats the Harpy in a battle. And they all lived happily ever after.
>Northern politics and people turning on Boltons? Boring! Have a scene of Ramsey raping Sansa instead. Enjoy!
>Jaime slowly coming to realize his sister doesn't love him, and he doesn't have to be her extension? Uh, no, they lub each other.

Jesus Christ.

Stan is a tried and tested commander who would never betray his men. I would gladly be a knight for someone who has proven himself again and again. Opposed to some nepotistic bimbo who thinks she is owed the world because of muh dragons.

>>52735079
You know that America is not the only country in the world? We too freed our slaves in Russia, except ours were serfs. Literally nobody was happy with results, and it directly lead to the communists taking power in a bloody revolution many, many years later, amongst many other horrible consequences. Should the serfs have been freed? Yes. Should it have happened in a way it happened? No.
The world is not black and white, and sometimes the easy solution only leads to resentment, and then - to blood and corpses.

>>52734970
But then there wouldn't be enough slaves to go around.

>>52735079
Lincoln had a program to get those people set up with something during reconstruction, Danny just sorta fumbled about going "slavery is BAHD!" without doing anything to help the ex-slaves improve.

>>52735116

Don't forget a half scene where Tyrion quips about Mereen being wealthy and prosperous once again even though there's no mention of how or why. Also, Moqorro? Fuck that giga nigga, we're making the head honcho of R'hllor a woman who visits Dany and flicks her bean.

You know what it was? It was because they ran out of material. Dabid ran out of material. They couldn't copy+paste scenes from the book anymore, so they had to improvise. What you see in Season 5-6 is DnD trying to step up to GRRMs level.

Oh my god the guy isn't a brilliant writer, but GRRM is fucking Shakespeare compared to these guys. You know what scene stands out to me as a sign of this? When Tyrion is freeing the dragons, he recounts when he was a child he wanted a dragon - a little one, like him.

There was more emotion, more wit, more thought and more LIFE put into that scene than the rest of the episode... And it was a straight rip from the books, one of the last scraps they got.

And now Season 7 is supposedly a rip-off of Aegon's Conquest, because whoopdy-doo if they can't use the books than they'll use the backstory.

>>52735282
No, the worst part was when Tyrion quipped "I drink and I know things - that's what I do". It was meant to be funny, but for me it was horrifying. "They know what they reduced Tyrion's character to, they literally just aknowledged it. and they're proud of it."

>>52725186
In the books aren't there a bunch of Targaryen branch families and families descended from Targaryen bastards on those islands? Hell, isn't a reason that Robert even had a claim to the throne was that the Baratheons had a Targaryen ancestor somewhere?

>>52735158

Hey there Ivan, I never said it's all sunshine and lolipops after you free your slaves. Russia was hardly the first country to abandon serfdom. It creates massive problems on a societal level and an economic level that have to be addressed. And I actually agree with >>52735213 that Danny needed to actually do more to help the fix these issues. But I will still appreciate a person willing to liberate others rather than utilize the evil of slavery for their own gain or to "maintain peace."

You know Patrick Henry once put it like this: "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me Liberty or give me death!"

>>52735282
I was actually a little surprised they omitted Moqorro, a black man. Like, they turn an unimportant character into a black guy to diversify the show, but replace an important one with a hot chick?
What's the deal with it?

>>52735325

The show doesn't care, the show doesn't fucking care. One of the details GRRM put into the world was a glut of nobility - the series literally begins with a description of a Night's Watch member who was made such because, "like many families in that time, there were too many sons and not enough lands."

D&D snipped and sheared and decimated the number of family members the nobles had... Because those actors cut into the dragon budget.

>>52735359

Moqorro needed Tyrion to go on a long sailing scene, which was expensive and time-consuming... Or they needed Victarion, who is problematic because his role was taken by Asha.

>>52735394
Except they needed none of it. They could have him just come to the court. I mean, yes, his scenes with Victarion were awesome, but if we are omitting Victarion, there's no real reason for Moqorro not to just come out of nowhere.
Yet they don't do that. They replace the character entirely, with Kinvara.

>>52735282
>Season 7 is supposedly a rip-off of Aegon's Conquest
What the hell is that supposed to mean?

>>52735325
Baratheons are decedents of Aegon's possibly half-brother.

>>52735439

Ah yes, Kinvara. The one-scene wonder showing the Red God is staffed by little more than generic brown women. I mean, fuck trying to introduce a big scary buff black man who hints at the scale of the Church while providing all sorts of premonitions, right?

Oh my god, that reminds me of a scene that I feel is just disgusting; Pentos, Asha is showing herself off as a lesbian, gotta have that scene right? She jokes about Theon being castrated, and Theon is understandably upset.

And then Asha does the worst job at comforting a torture victim I've ever seen, telling him to "get over it or kill yourself" and "if you need something to live for, live for revenge."

Contrast this with Sansa and Petyr, which was played as acutely uncomfortable and Sansa in a clear position of hurting Petyr over his betrayal.

>>52735503

Danerys lands in Dragonstone, plots over the table of the seven kingdoms.

Gendry wields a Warhammer and becomes the new Baratheon, uniting the Stormlands. The Reach and Lannisters unite to stop Dany, and there will be a Field of Fire 2.0.

Jon Stark will bend the knee.

>>52735575
>The Reach and Lannisters unite to stop Dany
I was going to say "That's unlikely, since Cersei just killed them all", but after Cersei becoming a queen seated on the Iron Throne, all bets are off the table. The show jumped the shark.

>>52735596

It's the Tarlys, they'll betray the Tyrells because Randyll is a filthy misogynist.

>>52735603
I can actually believe in that happening. You know, it's funny, because both /pol/ and feminists have legitimate reasons to hate the show. Oftentimes those reasons are even the same.

For example, I've began reading this blog out of bile fascination, but then I started realizing that the author makes scary amount of sense.
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/119403805073/meta-analysis-roundup-post

>>52735596

How the fuck does Cersei even have an army by Season 7? Wasn't the Lannisters being decimated and supported almost entirely by the good graces of Tyrell a plot point?

>>52735696

Anon... It's confirmed from people snooping around GoT sets.

File: despair.png (1MB, 1606x1640px) Image search: [Google]

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>>52735804
No... Please... Not like this.

>>52735825

Peer into the darkness and witness oblivion, anon.

Daenerys and Jon go north to prove to Cersei that the White Walkers are real - Cersei is too powerful to remove, you see. Viserion gets killed and is resurrected as an ice Drake. Jon and Dany have sex on a boat.

>>52735603

BUT THE TARLY FAMILY ARE AUTISTIC ABOUT DUTY AND HONOR, THEY WOULD NOT DO THAT.

NO
NO
NO

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>>52735843
WHY

>>52735696
There's a reason you can play a game called "/pol/ or SJW"

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482KB, 433x624px

>>52735843
MAKE IT STOP. MAKE IT STOP.

>>52735521
>>52735325a
In the books the dragonstone area is where there's the most Valyrian heritage, but not necessarily legit Targs (through probably a fair amount of bastards in the ancestry). Robert's Baratheon claim to the throne is due to his paternal grandma being a daughter of Aegon V, he and Rhaegar/viserys/Dany are second cousins.

>>52735887
>>52735905
And this is why we discuss the books only.
Which in conclusion, answers OP.

GRRM does fantastic descriptions of food.

There, I said it.

>>52736734
This

>>52735318

That encapsulated everything that's wrong with the show, and was when I really stopped giving a shit about it.

Tyrion died as a dynamic character the moment he killed Shae - why? Because Dabid insisted on replacing Tysha as Tyrion's true love - they even did this in Season 1, when Shae makes fun of Tyrion for loving what was clearly a whore.

And then the whore died in Season 4, and did Tyrion ever recover as a character?

Also,
>Daenerys burns the Dothraki Khals
>This makes her Khaleesi now

>>52736976

Honestly, GRRM is a genuinely good writer with obvious strengths in detailed worldbuilding and casual character interactions. He's got problems with repetition and what might be his own personal kinks, but Dunk & Egg is one of the best casual reading series I've read, and I can't wait for the She-Wolves of Winterfell.

>>52737127
The problem is, detailed worldbuilding isn't a strength in and of itself. Detail only is good if the details themselves add to the work. Often, GRRM's details make the world make less sense, not more; and are born out of his noncomprehension of scale. As an example, the Wall being 700 feet high is stupid, as are some of the interactions that happen, say, the fighting with the wildlings, because of it. A less detailed "higher than any structure Jon had seen before" manages to encapsulate what I think he's going for while at the same time preserving a bit more of the suspension of disbelief.

>>52737189
>As an example, the Wall being 700 feet high is stupid
Wasn't Brandon the builder pretty much magic?
Therefore, he is a wizard and has no sense of Wright or Wrong.

>>52714969
>a military genius beyond measure
Where is he shown to be a genius? He's a competent commander to be sure, but Tywin was and is, the stick by which I measure ASOIAF strategic leaders.

>>52737189
>As an example, the Wall being 700 feet high is stupid, as are some of the interactions that happen, say, the fighting with the wildlings, because of it

To be fair, GRRM turned that detail snafu into some great imagery later on in the series, with Wildlings climbing the wall or describing it as the edge of the world.

>>52737329
It's stated by Tyrion and others that Stannis is one of the best military commanders in Westeros, having on multiple incidents defeated forces far superior in number or advantage to his own. Another note people tend to forget is that Stannis is also mentioned to have done administration in King's Landing when Master of Ships in working with various councils to try and deal with the laws of the kingdom, as well as actively investigating the birth of Joffrey and being able to deduce shit. People tend to mistake Stannis' desire to avoid intrigue as him being bad at it.

>>52738026
>Master of Ships
Still fucks me up that Stannis wasn't master of laws.

>>52723171
Pfff, sandsnakes. Arianne is the true heiress of Dorne!

>>52735116
You ar not alone.