Why would anyone EVER pick a martial over a caster?

>>52616903
Because they're playing a game that isn't shit.

>>52616903
Because they're not playing D&D 3e/4e/5e/pathfinder/anykind of D&D 3e clone.

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Why would anyone EVER pick cheap parlor tricks over real physical power?

>>52616903
Because you don't expect the game to last beyond level 3.

>>52616903
People keep making these stupid threads and asking that stupid question, and yet, on a table with 5 people, the average magic user number is 1.5. Often one, sometimes 2. Most people end up playing martials or mixed stuff.

I mean, i think the people who create this thread actually never played a tabletop, or at least not one with magic.

>>52616922
FPBP

>>52616903
For Roleplaying purposes.

>>52616903
>Why would anyone EVER pick a martial over a caster?

More fun to play

More powerful

Swords

Mayday

Would you rather be a Navy SEAL, or Steven Hawking? Who would you want on your side in a bar fight?

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>>52616922

>>52617015
>Who would you want on your side in a bar fight?

Hawking. I might get my ass kicked, but the cops will hunt those fuckers down to the ninth layer of hell for even laying a finger on him.

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>>52616903

Hit Points. Saving Throws. Magic Swords.

>>52616903

so they can not die to a stiff breeze I assume.

Is it me or has /tg/ turned into /v/?

>>52616927
I don't know why people insist like this is only a D&D problem, Is it because they've never played anything else? Other popular alternative systems have it way worse, you can literally end the word at level 0 with GURPs.

>>52617057
Do you fuckers forget that wizards aren't the only spellcasters?

>>52616927
I'm not sure why you mention 4e there. That's the only Wotc made D&D where the Martial/Caster thing isn't an issue.

>>52617076
Because it is. Breaking GURPS with spells is a lot harder than breaking it with powers or advantages, and even in Shadowrun, a mage throwing elementals every which way still isn't 100% obsoleting a street samurai and the street sam can actually handle himself for the whole game.

>>52617116
By making it into a tactical video game. Great job.

>>52616903
>caster: does sleight of hand tricks and hypnosis for minimum wage
>martial: bangs Afghani war brides, makes six figures contracting, does MMA and three-gun competitions

Martial everytiem.

>>52616944
because the people who make these threads are basing it off the ebin screencaps where everything is made up.

>>52617127
Apart that's fucking wrong, with a decent mastery of Shadowrun Its extremely easy to break the game with a mage, why the fuck did you think everybody abuses the fuck of sustaining Foci and Geas?

@52617139
Laziest attempt at a (You) I've seen all day.

>>52617076
WH40k RPG strikes a good balance there, I think.

Sure, Psykers are good, but they're also a massive liability. As it should be. Fuck up with magic, you cause massive harm to yourself, others, and the very fabric of reality.

>>52617139
I *wish* there had been a 4e tactical video game. The 3.x one was total shit. A 4e rpg on the DS with branching story paths could have been rad.

>>52617116
I didn't like how they did 4e (in my opinion they made it into a WOW ripoff) and that's why it's on there.
>>52617076
Because it's very easy for mages in D&D 3e and the newer editions to completely break the game in their favor. I've never had this problem in AD&D, which is why I've never gone pass 2E. Hell one of my favorite memories in AD&D is when a 3e faggot came in and thought he could he control the party, by force, because he was a level 10 wizard. Should of seen his fucking face when my fighter killed in him single segment to be fair though, I did have a vorpal sword.

>>52617238
It's weird how they most "video gamey" edition is still the only one that's never gotten a video game even remotely using its mechanics, 5e not withstanding since it's still ""new"".

>>52617262
>I didn't like how they did 4e and that's why it's on there.

Removing the tired Wow meme bit, your fibre to dislike 4e, but listing it here is still dumb because it's a martial/Caster thread, with is one of the few things that WASNT a problem with 4e.

>>52617304
I will admit, I'm on the wrong with that one. I shouldn't of put it on there, but too late change anything.

>>52617338
I'm fine just leaving it at that then.

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>>52616903
>implying I don't pick both
Spellsword is the best class and archetype.

>>52617354
Thank you. I was excepting someone to keep arguing and insulting me for a personal opinion.I think I've grown more jaded the usual because of the internet

>>52616956
>more fun to play
>hitting shit with a sword is more fun than making the laws of the natural universe your bitch

>>52617158
No, what you have to realize is that these people get their kicks off the mere existence of this thread. They go to page 1 and Jack off to the fact that their thread is on it, and continues to be in it, because the retard machine that is /tg/ can't ignore bait, has to argue about everything, and in general spouts vitriol and bile over the stupidest shit because person A disagrees with person B.

The whole point of this thread is to Shit on D&D, because idiots like you and me can't ignore things we don't like.

Sage

>>52617015
Hawking, if hawking could stop time and drain all the moisture from your body with a thought

>>52617064
We're still a bit less angry than /v/

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>>52616903
I enjoy playing my barbarian. I like the resource of always being able to resort to violence, and always being able to resort to violence *first*. It's a lot of fun because it works pretty well for a savage who obeys civilization's laws when she feels like it and relies on violence practically as a second nature.

>>52617427
Yeah, cus for Magic there is only one """explanation""" for how you did it. Magic.
For Swords, you can describe the action in any number of ways.

>>52617139
When a tactical video game stands head and shoulders above everything they made before or afterwards, maybe there's a problem.

>>52616922
If that's true how come nobody plays those """"""games"""""" btfo kiddo, btfo.

>>52617543
>Not fluffing your magic to be like one of the different schools.
>Not describing the fireball's roiling volatile fire curling around your hand, like you have a deathgrip on it, before launching itself, faster than it's own flames can keep up with, at an enemy, where it scorches and blackens their flesh, opening up cracks through which blood pours, before they finally keel over, charred and ashen.

>>52617272
Yeah. D&D Online's mechanics were much closer to 3.x than Neverwinter's were to 4e. Yet which one is remembered as the MMO edition?

>>52617151
In your dreams martialfag
>caster: in a position of power making six figures running a government due to their intellect and charisma.
>martial: sent to die in a war or come home to become a hobo who asks for change to fuel his alcohol addiction.

>>52617468

but just as shit and unfunny

>>52616933
Because being able to lift heavy shit doesn't mean shit if you don't have the intellect or charisma not to make yourself look like a fool in front of women.

>>52616956
>More fun to play
Yeah, because "hit shit" and "hit shit harder" will never get old after the first dozen times you do it.
>More powerful
Not when spells exist. Hell, magic missile is more powerful than any weapon in the game, simply because it's straight damage that most creatures won't be able to block unless they have very specific items.

>>52616903
You would pick a martial over a caster if your DM banned or changed spells on a whim, but handed out magic weapons and armor like candy, a type of DM I've too often had the misfortune of playing under.

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>>52617379
Mah nigga!

But seriously, if magic is part of the world the "Martials" who don't know magic of their own will just die. There's no sense not to be a mage of some kind.

>>52618020
I weep for you sir. I truely do.

>>52617587
This. Market share is king, anyone who disagrees is welcome to head back to >>>r/rpg

>>52616903

Because it's cool.

>>52617587
>>52618213
Because the majority of people are casuals like you and can't be assed to learned anything other than muh d20, while at the same time trying to b e hip and complaining about d20.

>>52616903

You look cute in those robes, mageboy. Don't worry, I will protect you. Then maybe later you can... help me with my armor~

>>52616903
For one, the setting might not have any magic.

I like being limited in the scope of my abilities.

>>52617783

>wizard
>charisma
>points in social skills when there is Lore to learn
>wasting time with nations abd world domination when there are Mysteries to solve

You are the massive fuck up here, Sorcerer-kun. Maybe you should go use those extra spell slots to impress some small children? Seems about right for your level of intellect.

>>52616903
They're not playing D&D.

>>52617543
>(You)

>>52617427

>being such an insecure pussy about your DM that you need to play a full caster to have a good time

No anon, you are the bitch.

>>52617139
I mean...it's not a video game. It's a game.

A tactical fighting game. Sans video.

Still the best version of D&D WotC has ever produced, but not the best version of D&D period.

>>52617869
>being able to lift heavy shit doesn't mean shit if you don't have the intellect or charisma not to make yourself look like a fool in front of women.
Being able to recite nonsense doesn't mean shit if you don't have the grace or stamina to actually please said women.

Women go for Conan, not Merlin.

>>52616903
Some people are born with more chromosomes than necessary.

>>52617379
>Im-fucking-plying
Ky Kiske is proof that you can be a paladin and not fall for banging the dragon (even though he still sort of needs to work on his parenting).

>>52617427
Why not just beat the Laws of the Universe literally with your bare hands and make them do what you want?

Or bard can seduce Laws of the Universe and marry them all at once. He probably will need some endurance training but we are talking about bard here. He is a professional.

>>52617902
>Yeah, because "hit shit" and "hit shit harder" will never get old after the first dozen times you do it.
Somehow it is not a problem in systems that care about doing combat right.

>>52617379
Muh nigga.
There's no sense for a martial not to take a magic initate feat at least to know a little bit of magic.

>>52617869
Dude. Thats projecting. Thats both projecting and sexist. Hell, there are plenty of dudes that mainly sweat looking like a fool in front of dudes.

Wait. You are baiting right? Cause that looks like bait son.

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>>52616903
Tfw the op was being sarcastic and nobody got it.

>>52619153
This thread is never sarcastic. It's a shitpile stewed in bile and vitriol and constantly put on display because some idiot thinks it's funny.

Just martial so well it seems magical in nature

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>>52616927
>4e
>having that problem

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>>52616922

>>52619271
See >>52617262 and >>52617338
Shouldn't of, but did. Also, maybe you should find a better image then the one you used. Nobody likes watermarked images.

>>52618450
>Being able to recite nonsense doesn't mean shit if you don't have the grace or stamina to actually please said women.
Tell that to Danny Devito.

>>52618353
Just because you're stuck dividing yourself between being strong, fast, and enduring doesn't mean that I suffer from MAD as well.

Maybe stop projecting your problems onto me and worry about surviving the next campaign that I put into motion to fuel my next excursion to the underdark.

>>52618653
>Somehow it is not a problem in systems that care about doing combat right.
Even if the system has "depth" the most you're doing is "I hit" and "I hit harder" except maybe you cause a status effect or you hit two guys instead of one.

Meanwhile, I can cast one of dozens of spells and each one has a quantifiable effect on the battlefield beyond just dealing damage to X enemies at once, yet I can still do that without sacrificing my versatility.

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>>52619552
>Nobody likes watermarked images.

>>52620326
Ok, I deserved that one.

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>>52616903
>Why would anyone EVER pick a martial over a caster?
Look at TTRPGs as they are intended, not as they are often written. Imagine a land of swords and sorcery, where gigantic monsters roam the lands and cruel demigods reign arcane magic down on the populace. Imagine being the guy who just casually walks up to them and punches them in the face so hard the impact transcends space and time and crushes them before they ever even rose to power.

The problem is that TTRPG rules dictate that a lvl 1 fighter swings his sword really hard and a lvl 20 fighter swings his sword really really really hard, while a lvl 1 wizard throws fireballs around and a lvl 20 wizard can summon legions of angels and be above the laws of physics and logic. A lvl 20 fighter should be more than that, by that time he should be a veritable challenge to the gods themselves. A level 20 fighter should be someone like Goku or One Punch Man.

What's not awesome about that?

>>52620407
>Should be someone like Goku or One Punch Man
>Should be
>They aren't
I mean, it is pandering to geeks for a power trip, but it makes a bit of sense when you remember that humans got to where we are because of intelligence and communication over brute strength. Endurance hunting didn't hurt either. In realistic settings strength is linear and intelligence isn't.

>>52620543
High fantasy isn't realistic
Any setting with magic isn't realistic

>>52620543
>but it makes a bit of sense when you remember that humans got to where we are because of intelligence and communication over brute strength.
If you're going down that route, then there shouldn't be a split between magic and mundane in the first place. Every PC should be magical, and magic should simply have different means of manifesting itself. The arcane and divine schools of magic should be joined by perhaps a "ki" school of magic, which does not seek to master an energy granted by an outside source like the gods or the powers cosmic, but instead draws them from within humans themselves. This would result in warriors who can literally punch an enemy until he explodes, scream poison away and escape magical bonds purely by wanting it hard enough.

But that's "too anime" for a lot of people, even if Wuxia predates anime.

>>52620585
Yet in most settings, the dude who is clever, capable of making friends, and is willing to push themselves beyond their limitations are the ones who end up becoming the main character while the guy who focused on brute strength jobs to the biggest threat just to sell how badass the BBEG is.

>>52616903
Because i enjoy it

>>52620735
>clever, capable of making friends, and is willing to push themselves beyond their limitations

None of that is caster specific though. In fact the clever, charismatic hero is more often than not a swordsman.

>>52620735
>>52620840
In 3.5e, possibly the most unbalanced of RPGs, dedicated martials are horribly starved for skill points and suffer from extreme MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency, ie. the need to have high points in multiple skills), which means that INT and CHA are often the only stats they can truly afford to dump. Guess what two stats are the most important for making friends?

That description, in 3.5e terms, fits the bard more than the fighter. And given the right feats, prestige classes and alternative class features bards can give all but the cheesiest wizards and clerics a run for their money and simultaneously invalidate fighters and rogues.

>>52620889
Yeah, 3.5 sucks.

>>52617051
>Fighters have the best saves across the board
Why did they get such shitty ones in 3.PF then? Good fort save, weak reflex and will is like the worst combination and doesn't equate to what they had before at all.

>>52620968
becuase everything is clear in hindsight and the guys making it thought they were making everyone as 'balanced as possible'.

Then math happened, then common sense and now everyone with emotional maturity greater then a 9 year old realizes "wait, people who can't cast spells can only do one thing really shitily, while people who can cast spells can do everything well, and do the not caster guy's thing better then him, so why have one when you can have the other?"

>>52620840
>None of that is caster specific though. In fact the clever, charismatic hero is more often than not a swordsman.
The clever, charismatic hero also has access to magic, so he might as well be a Bard or Sorcerer in most cases.

>>52621103
The counterargument to this is often that the fighter can be made as strong as he needs to be with buffs from casters. The thing is that wizards and clerics would be better off casting these spells on another cleric, another druid or themselves. Especially the cleric who, through heavy armor proficiency and just one spell (divine power) can become objectively superior to any fighter. But we shouldn't underestimate the druid, whose animal companion alone is roughly the equivalent of a fighter.

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To the people who think nobody should ever play martials, do you think they should just forcibly remove martial classes from the game or make them NPC-only?

>>52621193
>from the game
*from all games with magic

>>52621103
>becuase everything is clear in hindsight and the guys making it thought they were making everyone as 'balanced as possible'.

>Gives most martials shit will saves across the board
>Have most SoL/SoD abilities that target Will.
>Have most SoL/SoD spells that target Will.
>Have Fort be relegated to shit that most players will be able to survive anyways due to having shitloads of HP.

This goes beyond a mathematical issue, this goes straight into full retard territory.

>>52621253
I think you missed his point, he's insulting martials. He said OD&D tried to be balanced, but then the mature intellectuals who impress all the ladies with their classy fedoras realized balance is stupid and went for "realism" in 3.pf by making the fighters as shitty as possible.

Someone post that strawman comic where the nerd gets beaten up by the football player and then goes and plays D&D where the GM talks about how his wizard beat the brooding monster, proving that brain beats brawn. It seems apropos for this thread.

>>52617238
The closest thing I can think of is Fire Emblem, but even then.

The cool thing about 4e was that it had also influence from card games which meant that you could do all sort of cool combos with powers or with teammates and stuff.

Goddamnit I wanna start a /4eg/ thread now, they're great even if they're really autistic.

>>52617076
LOL, Mages in GURPs rarely got a spell off in combat and combat spells kind of suck. Now out of combat the mind magic rules. Never play the new ed but ever caster I played with used a gun/sword/bow. One: due to the fact you stand there casting and one hit ended the spell before it goes off you got it off. Two: GRUP system means you could be good at both arms and magic.

>>52618468

You know, I never thought of describing the Gears as Dragons but that analogy fits very well

>>52617127
In the new shadowrun, a mage player worked the rule to have high increase in STAT with a small exp cost. Sure anther mage might remove it but that is one round of the caster not casting damage spells, Along with showing everyone he/she was a caster needed killed first. The player also pointed out the other caster needed to know he had all those buff spells on him.

>>52617262
in most AD&D player mages were never allowed to become high level. Mages also needed a great deal more exp to level. If He was level 10, your fight was like level 20 something LOL

>>52616903
I like swords.

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>>52616903
I like weapons although to be fair I barely get a chance to try magic but it seems like a hassle to me.

>>52621911
First, my DM allowes high level mages. Second, he was added into the campaign at level 10 because we lost our mage player. Third, he fired off a death spell, I saved, I rolled a 19 with my vorpal sword an took off his fucking head.
Lastly, what the fuck is with the "LOL" at the back of that? Yes, I'm in a foul mood so I'm going to be an asshole.

>>52617076
The thing with GURPS is at the end of the day the GM can say "no you cant take the universe destroying power created with a math exploit on a modifier that really wasn't meant to be scaled that high." while in something like DnD the classes are the classes and while theres somethings you could say no on you'd really have to do some homebrewing to retool the classes to be somewhat balanced. Also GURPS chargen is about making an actual character not just a combat statblock like DnD.

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>>52617869
*tips fedora*

>>52623339
Typical martialfag, defaulting to stale memes when confronted with his own mediocrity.

Sad.

>>52616903
It's fun, and it's way less complicated which is a boon for new or longtime players.

>>52623545
>It's fun, and it's way less complicated
Well you're half-right.

I honestly do not understand the mentality of people who jerk themselves off about how strong their imaginary characters are, or who refuse to acknowledge that in different games, systems and/or settings magic may not allow you to become a invincible god

>>52620245
For one example in m&m it does not matter 90% of the time whether you're conjuring fire blasts or using your flame breath mutant powers.

You can have dozens of spells as an array with the magic descriptor, but the GM would need to be clinically insane to let you have an array that large instead of making you use power stunts for the more obscure stuff. You could have it as a variable power but again, the GM would need to be insane to let you have Variable unless it was absolutely vital to your build. And literally anyone who can afford and justify it with their character concept can buy Simultaneous Nullify (Magic) or an affliction with Transformed as a 3rd degree condition.

No "no-save" stuff because the system inherently doesn't support it. Almost any effect you're going to use on other people is going to be resistible somehow. Save-or-lose is possible if you're willing to blow like 1/3 your PP in a single Affliction power, which means the dude who bought a lot of Expertises, social skills, benefits and a equipment array is almost certainly going to have much more utility than your character, and this still applies if you spent your points sensibly.

>>52616903
The only people who pick casters are those sad bitter nerds that take the game way to seriously because they have nothing else in their lives, the people who play martials are well-adjusted and only play the game to have fun

Because you're not fucking Monte Cook

>>52617379
A jack of all trades, master in none.

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What if I play a martial caster?

>>52624100
On the negative side, casters can theoretically do anything within reach of their PL at any moment. You can shit up encounters of any kind with power stunts if you're good at power design.

On the positive side, exploiting that more than once in a blue moon means that you're converting your hero points into spells directly while everyone else gets to use them to affect the game in ways that aren't spells.

>>52616903
>Cancellation of Magic/Binding/Matrices Ki Techniques
>Laughing Nemesis Technicians and Taos
>Crying Wizards, Summoners, and Mentalists.

>>52616944
This is a good post

>>52616922
>>52616927
These are memeing retards

>>52621911
No, retard, Fighters end up leveling slower than Wizards. Look at the XP tables.

>>52624772
This dude needs to decide on a look.

Either he's going to be a scot, a shitty gladiator, or a gentleman musician. He's got like three shirts, a leotard, and a scarf. He's trying to have everything and it just really isn't working out for him.

And I really feel bad for his instrument. Its strings are exposed and doesn't have a proper case, meaning that shit's gonna get rekt the moment it starts drizzling. And he better hope his sudden arm movements don't accidentally snap the neck right off during combat. Plus if he falls on his back, that thing's toast. Not to mention if he narrowly dodges an attack, that thing's probably the first to go.

>>52617744
This is either retarded or incredibly dishonest.
"MMO edition" does not man "the D&D edition that inspired more vieogames/MMOs". Many games put 3rd on the screen, but the GAME adapted its mechanics to simulate the Pen and Paper.

4th edition D&D is accused (right or wrong) of being too "MMORPG-like" because the way the AEDU system remembered the different cooldown in wow. Along with the unfortunate use of the art (like the blood-elf/high elves in the core) people assumed that the designer were chasing WoW.

Whether you agree or not, is the DIRECTION of the chasing/imitation that gave 4th edition that name.

>>52618256

I could be assed to learn something other than d20 but then I would have no one to play with

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I just want to have high cha and magic, be special for once.

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Because Raistlin Majere is a faggot.

>>52621193
What's with all the Samurai Jack images popping up all over 4chan lately?

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>>52626524
It's because Jack is back and the hype train is in full gear.

>>52624592
>Lawful stupid paladins
>Dickass thieves
>le human fighter
>well-adjusted
Nice joke martialfag.

>>52620968
>Good fort save, weak reflex and will is like the worst combination
Fail a reflex save and you take damage. Fail a will save and you're out of the fight. Fail a fort save and you're dead. The worst combination (aside from the commoners saves) is good reflex, bad will, bad fort.

>>52627551
As long as you have enough HP, you can usually fail a reflex or fort save and still be in relatively good shape most of the time.

Fail a Will save though and you're basically standing around with your dick in your hand waiting for the DM to give you back control of your character, assuming that it's not a Will save vs. death or some shit.

>>52625116
That's not true. Iirc (in 1e) fighters hit 20th level at 1.75 mil xp but wiz does not until 3 mil. How is the fighter NOT hitting his higher levels faster?

>>52617902
>Yeah, because "hit shit" and "hit shit harder" will never get old after the first dozen times you do it.

Also the social aspects of being a mighty warrior. Way more interesting to play.

>>52617902
>Not when spells exist.

Sure it is. HGD beats DOB any day of the weak, even in situations where AoE is supposed to shine.

You cast a spell per turn, I do 7 attacks with advantage. Why would you ever not be martial?

>>52629003
>Also the social aspects of being a mighty warrior. Way more interesting to play.
Not when you're a high-functioning retard who can only afford to be strong and tenacious at the cost of everything else.

Tbh, someone like a Bard has a better potential for being a might warrior than the fighter does since the hallmark of any warrior in stories is being strong as well as clever and charismatic, which Fighters just can't live up to.

>>52629014
Because I can cast a spell that makes you believe that you're my best friend or cast a spell to make it so your attacks auto-miss due to my body becoming ethereal.

>>52624721
The shotos of RPGs.

>>52629127
There's absolutely nothing forcing a Fighter to have above average intelligence, and in fact tend to have good wisdom to boost will saves.

>>52629135
There's plenty of magical gear and feats to cover vs that, and the high base saves caused by the ridiculous amount of stat improvements the fighter has doesn't make it a guarantee.

Beside you're supposed to be on the same team, idiot.

Martials just don't tire and will keep working at peak efficiency. Casters need to rest or be useless. Having both is important.

>>52616903
Martial: I'm gonna run the goblin through and then kick him off my blade into the goblin behind him.

Caster: The spell description says that the nearest enemy with intent to cause damage or otherwise harmful effects to myself must make a will save vs DC 12 or he takes 1d4+2 boredom damage or half damage, rounded down, if he is successful.

Casters are boring as fuck for everyone else at the table who doesn't get hard for tedious descriptions of math.

>>52629127
>can only afford to be strong and tenacious at the cost of everything else.

Fighters have 6 more attributes points then the other classes and only need STR since heavy armors ignore DEX... wtf are you talking about?

Or are you still playing the twin brother of FATAL that is 3.X?

>>52629193
>Fighters have 6 more attributes points then the other classes and only need STR since heavy armors ignore DEX
They'd also need good CON to boost their HP and WIS if they don't want to get ambushed by an enemy trying to take advantage of their passive perception being low.

>>52629163
WIS will always be the third best stat a Fighter has by default simply because there's no reason for a Fighter to have good CHA or INT.

>>52629176
>There's plenty of magical gear and feats to cover vs that, and the high base saves caused by the ridiculous amount of stat improvements the fighter has doesn't make it a guarantee.
The problem is that all the money that you're spending to boost your saves is money that isn't being spent on dealing damage or buffing your defenses. If I can't mind-control you or go ethereal to escape your attacks, I'll just cast a spell to boost my defenses so you'll have a harder time hitting me.
>Beside you're supposed to be on the same team, idiot.
Doesn't fucking matter chief, eventually you're going to be going up against creatures that are about as powerful as a mage of equal level, so if you can't beat me when I'm not actively trying to kill you, what makes you think that you'll be able to kill something that is?
>Martials just don't tire and will keep working at peak efficiency.
Hardly, a martial will run low on HP a lot faster than a mage will run low on spells.

>>52629243
>good CON

Whatever they started with is probably enough. The +2 health feat is technically better for that than raising your CON, too.

>WIS for Perception

Mostly for the saving throw, the cleric/ranger/druid can take care of the observin'

>>52616903
Because he's playing a game that allows martials to have as much fun as casters (cough...4th...Cough...cough)

>>52629272
>if you can't beat me when I'm not actively trying to kill you

Any well built character can defeat another of equal level on their first turn, almost the entirety of the fight will be decided by who wins the initiative... which the Ranger has advantage on.

>I'll just cast a spell to boost my defenses
Adding 1D8/1D12 to your attack roll is great for that. Warlord and the UA classes variants with similar abilities are really, really good.

>>52629284
Why would you waste a feat just to gain 2HP? Also, raising CON is a boon simply because you retroactively gain HP equal to your level.

>>52629333
>waste a feat just to gain 2HP?

Per level, numbnut. It's also retroactive.

>>52629338
What feat is that again?

>>52629332
>which the Ranger has advantage on.
Since when?
>Adding 1D8/1D12 to your attack roll is great for that.
It's really not if you can't hit the enemy's AC. Also, if you're referring to weapons with the "versatile" tag, I'm pretty you'd only add 1d8/1d10 to your roll.
>Warlord and the UA classes variants with similar abilities are really, really good.
How so?

>>52629385
>>which the Ranger has advantage on.
>Since when?

Since the recent update in UA. Ranger got a bunch of buffs and completely rewritten powers.

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf

>>Adding 1D8/1D12 to your attack roll is great for that.
It's really not if you can't hit the enemy's AC. Also, if you're referring to weapons with the "versatile" tag, I'm pretty you'd only add 1d8/1d10 to your roll.
>Warlord and the UA classes variants with similar abilities are really, really good.
How so?

You don't get me, the combat maneuver that allows you to add 1d8/1d12 to your ATTACK roll, not damage roll.

>>52629358
Tough. p.170

>Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your leveI when you gain this feat. Whenever you gain a level thereafter, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points.

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>>52616903

>>52617015
>Would you rather blow a Navy SEAL, or Steven Hawking?

>>52621793
The titular Guilty Gear is a literal dragon.

>>52624721
"Often times better, than a master of one".

People keep forgetting the second half.

>>52616903
Because the autistic head god smites all casters on sight.

>>52628853
Most save-or-die spells target fort. Most effects that do ability damage (like consitution) target fort. It's alot easier to bring back an ally from a save-or-suck state caused by a will save than it is to bring back a dead ally.
Having a high hp can give the impression of being able to fail fort saves without devastating results, because high hp implies high CON which means a good bonus on fort saves. Also, classes with high hp and good fort saves are usually frontliners who roll fort saves more often as well as against effects that aren't very life threatening. Because of this, the big stupid fighter can relatively easily shrug off the effects of a poison that he failed to save against while to squishy wizard failing the will save part of phantasmal killer means certain death.

>>52617015
Have you seen Hawking's chair? Theres no way that thing isn't loaded to the brim with defenses

>>52630169
Practicing one punch 10,000 times may make you pretty lacking in other situations, but when you pull out that punch it's gonna get shit done.

>>52629191
If you are unironically complaining about the level of math in what appears to be some edition of D&D, then you are probably either retarded or you never bothered to read the rules. Most spells follow one of the few simple templates that are easy to remember if you've ever bothered to learn them in the first place. The bare minimum needed to play a caster is higher than it is to play a martial, and it's easy to accuse other classes of being boring math wanks when you only have to know how to make an attack/CM roll while conveniently leaving the math part to the DM.

>>52629127
>Not when you're a high-functioning retard who can only afford to be strong and tenacious at the cost of everything else.

Nah mate even the worst still has at least human-average intelligence and charisma and it's actually very hard to make one who isn't well above average in at least one of those.

>>52617427
Some of us prefer to play games where mages gently coax the laws of the natural universe into giving them a bit of wiggle room without getting slapped upside the head for their impertinence. It's more fun than one guy playing omnipotence power fantasy and the rest playing tagalongs.

The amount of fun gained from playing a martial class is directly related to how good you DM is while casting classes can always be fun.
If all your DM lets you do is hit things because nothing else gives a significant enough reward to be viable then you have a shit DM.

>>52616903
Because full mage is subpar in Tyranny.

>>52627369
t. sad bitter nerd that takes the game way to seriously because he has nothing else in his life

>>52617902
Martials have their tricks, most rely on being creative though. Obvious include all the maneuver related debuffs and brute forcing through obstacles. But you can also do things like reliably knock people unconscious, torture people, carry tons of stuff for itemancy, lop off limbs, break terrain (I've gotten three kills via falling stalactites), and more.

>>52631252
>maneuver related
Stopped reading right here.

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>>52631244
>Click on site for shits and giggles
>it's real

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>>52632232
>>52631244

>>52631234
>Look mom, I'm projecting again!

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>The folly that only casters, and not martials, can "break reality/physics"

>>52630565
>Nah mate even the worst still has at least human-average intelligence and charisma
Since most people are idiots who can only attract other idiots, that doesn't really inspire confidence when the Fighter is just as dumb as everyone else.

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>>52629272
How come casterfags always act like their hypothetical mage has access to every spell in the book simultaneously? If you have three spells docked just for "I have to make sure this martial doesn't hurt me!" what are you going to do in actual encounters against different enemies, including other mages?

>>52632992
Because being able to turn ethereal or mind-control people is almost always useful regardless of whatever we're fighting that day and being able to buff one's own defenses in a pinch is also pretty fucking useful.

What I don't understand is why martialfags continue to push the "hurr just get in close and kill them" meme yet get butthurt when the mage prepares ubiquitous spells that are generally useful for most situations when the mage can also dedicate plenty of their other spell slots to situations where those spells won't help as much.

It's like going into a RPS competition and getting mad when your opponent throws paper when all you throw is rock each and every turn. It's like, yeah, how dare an opponent exploit your weakness when the goal is to win?

>>52633092
It really seems like your hypothetical caster is speccing themselves explicitly to fight against a fellow party member martial. Everyone agrees that casters have too many options in 3.pf, but you're going out of your way to stack on as many "fuck you in particular, fellow party member!" spells as you can, it seems.

>>52633185
>It really seems like your hypothetical caster is speccing themselves explicitly to fight against a fellow party member martial.
Anything that can allow me to deal with an Orc will also allow me to deal with an uppity Fighter. Even then, dedicating three ubiquitous spells to the task isn't really what I'd call "speccing."
>Everyone agrees that casters have too many options in 3.pf, but you're going out of your way to stack on as many "fuck you in particular, fellow party member!" spells as you can, it seems.
Again, three spells isn't what I'd call "stacking" either, you're operating off of pure hyperbole at this point.

>>52616922
>>52616927

These are correct. When magic can theoretically range from "i can throw sparks" to "i am virtually omnipotent", the game designers have to make a choice to set the power level of casters to something reasonable.

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>>52616903
Armor

Robes and staves are fucking gay

>>52616903
>In shitty systems where casters > martials univocally:
Because I don't need to overcompensate in fiction for my inadequacies in real life by playing a stupidly game-breaking character that I don't like just to prove how much stronger than anyone else I am.
>In other systems:
Because I want to.

>>52633897
>Because I don't need to overcompensate in fiction for my inadequacies in real life by playing a stupidly game-breaking character that I don't like just to prove how much stronger than anyone else I am.
Projection ahoy cap'n!

Because martials are cooler, easier to sympatize with and generally more interesting characters.

Most of fiction/legent characters I can sympatize with are martials. Most of fantasy fiction is about martials indeed - with a dip in caster sometimes, but primarily martial.

Seriously, only "caster" protagonists I can think of that I LIKED (and liked doesn't mean
"sympathized with and would like to play such character") are Ged from Earthsea,Gandalf (not even a "caster" by your typical game standards) by and wizards of Black Company.

Meanwhile martials: Aragorn, Conan, Turin Turambar, Beowulf, Sigurd, Kane (from K.E Wagner's books), Geralt of Rivia, princes of the Noldor, countless characters from vidya and besides even fantasy plenty of books/movies from historical fiction with no magic at all.

I just find no appeal in playing bathrobe faggot handwaving to make things happen. It's boring. Epithome of "meh". There is no thrill to it.

One kind of mage I do like enough to play (and still I did it is an antagonist, dark mage or something like that. Ultimately unsymphaetic and vile.

>>52633271
Why do 3.pf players always get this autistic about how weak martials are? Everyone knows it by this point, because both systems are horrendously balanced, not because being a caster player gives you some divine right to being the strongest character in the party. Every edition before and the one immediately after don't have caster supremacy, and in 5e the problem's nowhere as dire along with fighters getting actually useful options. The game simply isn't balanced for pvp.

>>52616903
because there're other system besides 3.5/Pathfinder

>>52620245
Systems with depth or even just with semi realism either try to spice it up or show that combat is not only about "I hit stuff".

The status effects that you mention so offhandedly, let's take for example GURPS, may range from "enemy is wounded and doubling over from pain" to "berserker got both of his arms cut off and now has only useless stumps". Things that DnD makes you to do through 5-7 feats with a ridiculously easy save for the enemy can be done by any semi-professional fighter reliably.

Heroic fighters can transform the battlefield through brute strength, social/mental skills or just preparation. Because they are not relegated to only "I hit stuff" part. Even their presence already alters the battlefield because unlike in DnD being on the other side of their weapon is basically a "save or die" or sometimes even "no save you die horribly".

>>52625008
Well strength 10+ alone without any stunts allows for pretty ridiculous things in M&M. Like juggling elephants or something similar.

But yes - you need to enforce thematical magic on wizards. School limitations, elemental limitations or whatever.

>>52635047
Ivory tower game design. If you saw through the traps you deserve to win, and everyone who didn't deserves to lose.

>>52633185
>Everyone agrees that casters have too many options in 3.pf
This is what 5e players unironically believe. The problem isn't that casters have too many options. It's that martials have too few.

>>52635047
Stop defending 5e. Just because something is less bad doesn't means it's good. If you want balanced D&D go play 4e. If you want an actually good system, try not playing D&D.

>>52638020
I'm already in a non-D&D campaign along with my 5e one though. I don't know how you misconstrued my post which talked about all versions of D&D as "defending 5e" other than being permanently butthurt towards a system you don't like and presumably don't play. My point was that casters being gods is a thing ONLY on 3.pf, as far as D&D goes.

>>52637933
Normally I'd agree with you, but in this case wizards have the ability to just completely overtake other classes if they build for it. Unless fighters are going to suddenly be able to do everything a wizard can do, it's wizards having too many options rather than martials having too few. I normally support "build up, don't tear down" game design but D&D casters are not something you want to make the standard for balance.

>>52617427
Why, yes, actually having to work for your victories DOES make them more rewarding. How much of a powergaming faggot are you?

>>52619121
>sexist
Newfag detected. No one gives a fuck if you're sexist, this is 4chan, not Facebook.

>>52638583
>My point was that casters being gods is a thing ONLY on 3.pf, as far as D&D goes.
Except that's not true. I've seen caster builds in 5e that certainly don't compare to their 3.PF counterparts, but are still nothing short of "gods". Just because 5e doesn't have it as bad as 3.PF doesn't mean it doesn't happen etirely.

>>52638662
It's not the amount of options that casters have, it's that the options are way too overpowered. Instead of scrapping them altogether, they should just be nerfed into having reasonable power levels.

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>>52617231
Bloodthirsters and insanity points everywhere.

>>52617379
I have always been preferential to melee alchemists. Something about chucking bombs then doing PCP and punching shit is so cool.

>>52630506
Of course, and there is nothing wrong with that.
It's just that sometimes you are better off augmenting your punches with lightning or something because an enemy is susceptible to it.

>>52638860
If you are talking about shit like nuclear druids, nobody is actually playing those. No decent DM would allow them in the first place

If you're talking about stuff like becoming immortal by spamming clone, those are just plain not possible if you read the rules properly

>>52639002
That's pretty cool too, especially in an appropriate setting.
Reminds me of Thief.

>>52639322
That's the equivalent of saying that nobody plays OP builds in 3.PF. No decent DM would allow them in the first place.

>tfw to smart to play martials

>>52616903
I want to be the swole heroic husbando I can never be irl, same reason you want to rp your waifu

>>52631244
this is some next level shilling

>>52631244
grats dude you will now be my next Shadowrun character

>>52637933
No, it absolutely is the problem. When you can interact with every single facet of the game with the full strength of a specialist, there's a problem.

>>52642159
see>>52638910
Again, the problem isn't the amount of the options, but them being way too powerful.

>>52631244
I don't get it

>>52617190
>@
>>>/out/

@52645782
>getting this butthurt over not getting a (you)

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>be fighter 6 gorillion HP
>I cast 'avada kedavra'
>mfw

I got no fancy trick.
I got no God to protect me.
All I need it's the blood in my vein and the steel in my hand.

>>52616903
-Because D&D groups work together - some classes are better at certain things than others. Its not a competition to see who is the best - its a team experience.
-Someone has a cool idea for a character that isn't a caster
-Someone doesn't want to have to keep track of spells
>The group already has enough casters
>The Campaign will likely involve long times without rest, and close combat and someone needs to fist-fight people when the caster runs out of spells.

>tfw playing anima
Because I want to be a normal grounded ubermensch who breaks spells with his fists and summons his buttbuddies with the power of his rippling muscular body instead of a 1 in a million snowflake.

>>52616903

Normally I play hybrids because they're cooler than full martials or full casters and they end up being vastly more powerful if you know what you're doing.

But these days, I'm playing overoptimized martials just to spite caster haters.
It's like they want to play the Chad that stole their "almost GFs" in some sort of weird NTR that not even /pol/ could qualify as "cuck" in a way that dilluted the original meaning of the word.

>What knowledge does in a real fight, weh.

All that hate centered in the wizard is also incredibly retarded when clerics can be friends with the gods. Like if a wizard starts up a deicide run, a cleric can round up a chuckload of gods, avatars and shit, and just fondletrain that fucker.

>>52616903
Because casters are fucking gay and pathetic!

Who would you rather be?

a) a virile and muscular warrior with an 8.5" dick who beats the shit out of bandits and monsters and fucks princesses, tavern wenches and monster girls
b) some weakling with bad eyesight and asthma who spends all his days locked up in a library reading forbidden books and masturbating frenetically reading erotic elvish literature
c) some edgy weakling with bad eyesight and asthma who spends all his days locked up in a crypt reading forbidden tomes and fucking whatever female cadaver his master resurrected

>>52649077
The warrior will become weaker as they get older while the "weakling" will eventually harness enough power to attain immortality while remaining in the prime of his life.

>>52649077
d) some skinny treehugger who spends his days in a stinking march carving runes and having bestiality sex with animal companions because there's no one else living around

>>52649116
>remaining in the prime of his life
He was already shit in the prime of his life. Enjoy spending 1000 years as a living cadaver everyone rejects.

>>52649170
>He was already shit in the prime of his life. Enjoy spending 1000 years as a living cadaver everyone rejects.
Why would I care about some dumb peasant's opinion when I have an indispensable resource of monsters and undead to keep me company?

Besides, there are other ways to attain immortality aside from becoming a lich. That and there are shitloads of spells that can make me look just as good as a warrior who trained his entire life to get his body.

Face it, you age like milk while I'll age like wine.

>>52629830
>>52629830
>>Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your leveI when you gain this feat. Whenever you gain a level thereafter, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points.

That is the 3.P "improved" version The old version of toughness was a flat +3hp.

>>52649257
>That and there are shitloads of spells that can make me look just as good as a warrior who trained his entire life to get his body.

At that point you might as well practice an actual martial art in case magic isn't an option. Even decent fighters do more than hit really hard. Not to mention, all this devotion to making near elder god spells means you're barely decent at anything else. The fighter probably knows how to bandage himself, the ranger can navigate, and the theif or bard could sell a bridge. How is this wizard not going to be a neckbeard when another person shows up?

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>>52649840
>Even decent fighters do more than hit really hard.

>>52638860
Clearly you've never played Rifts, Rolemaster, Mutants and Masterminds, RuneQuest, or pretty much anything that had casters.

>>52650041
How do casters work in rolemaster?

>>52616903
>i only play 3.pf, the post
pls go

why do gms always let casters access the entire spellbook

It's a shit system that doesn't let you play both. Hell, I even main Robin in SSB4.

>>52617231
I agree. Though as with everything, the system kind of breaks apart at higher levels. Still, Psykers tend to be useful but potentially dangerous and much less reliable than someone who's just a straight up warrior. Plus the rp penalties are fun and interesting. A feral warrior will do just fine pretty much everywhere, but if someone figures out there's a Witch in the party, the local redemptionists might get a lynch mob together and cause all manner of headaches.

>>52650449
Because a mage being able to learn spells as they level up is a base assumption of the game, with rules built around casters having X spells by level Y.

Besides, nobody wants to sit around waiting for the mage to find that one spell to tie it all together when everyone wants to get on with the adventure. It's the same reason why material components don't work.

>>52617701
>unfortunately they only take half damage and have fire resistance.

>>52616903
No one but a weakling faggot needing to massively overcompensate for his own weak muscles would.

>"B-But muh physical combat."

Kek, a wizard can just blast them with magic artillery from a mile in the air, summon demons to fight for him, or simply enslave their pathetic minds with a word. Wizards are just better.

>>52651724
>It's the same reason why material components don't work.
I thought the bookkeeping of material components was meant to be part of the balance between martials and casters. To ignore them is to give casters an even larger advantage, and as such is wrong.

Why don't worldbuilders just make high level fighters Heracles/Thor/Whatever tier? They pretty much treat casters like that. Also make magic deteriorate the physical form.

>>52655087
You're right but it's only for spells that list the price of their components in the first place. Otherwise, it is assumed to in the component pouch or replaced by an arcane focus

>>52655133
According to the devs who make unbalanced games, it's something about "verisimilitude." I think verisimilitude is my least favorite word in the English language.

>>52639460
The thing is that in 3.PF "system mastery" matters far more than in 5e and is commonplace. You need to very heavily restrict the system to prevent shenanigans

Most 5e tables don't allow UA, which already invalidates nuclear druid. Even if UA is allowed, the whole build is cheese based off a deliberate misreading of the mechanics, which would get it banned from another chunk of the tables that allow it. Then, the third layer is that you get called out for being a powergaming asshole

>>52655276
Oh wait, that'd be the fourth layer, the third is justifying your nonsensical multiclass

>>52631244
>number is in India
That is fucking commitment.

>>52617040
And cops would be martials.

>>52616903
For gaming purposes, it makes sense. Lots of options, different ways of fun, everybody having a good time.
Realistic speaking, it makes no sense. If magic was real and you knew one day you could fly, travel the cosmos and raise the fucking dead with a movement of your wrist, yeah, going martial would be silly and stupid. In fact, it would make no sense at all, unless you are unable to be caster; then it would be reasonable.

>>52650041
And clearly you misread my post. What do those systems have to do with the fact that 5e has broken builds?

>>52656168
Which D&D version don't have broken builds? Are you high? The system comes broken from the factory, anon. You just need to find the crack and everything is ruined.

>>52616903
>Why don't you pick the overpowered shit that completely breaks the system
You know how in videogames you can use cheatcodes, the easiest difficulty setting and game guides to win without any effort or involvement? You know how satisfying that is?

If you "win" with a caster you just barely managed to avoid looking like the biggest loser on the planet for even feeling threatened in the first place.

If you play a martial, you are playing the underdog. You are expected to fail. Winning is now an actual challenge. If that doesn't appeal to you on some level, you should stick with your easymode.

>>52655276
There are many other ways to easily break 5e without the hijinks you mentioned. Also, what's the point of restricting options in a game like 5e when there are many better alternatives to it? 3.PF fills the niche of being a game where character building is it's own minigame and having so much content that pretty much anything is doable, if not optimally. 4e, despite /tg/ memes, is actually a pretty good system in it's own way filling the niche of a balanced D&D with MMORPG-like mechanics. 5e is just a half assed attempt at making D&D more balanced while keeping it close to what it was in 2-3.5e. It doesn't fill a niche that isn't filled by a better non-D&D alternative already. In short, 5e is obsolete and trying to fix it with house rules is time wasted when it's just faster to pick up an actually working system.

>>52656204
My point was that 5e has broken builds. I never claimed there was an edition of D&D where this wasn't the case. I replied to a person who claimed that broken builds/caster supremacy was only a thing in 3.PF. Read the thread before you post.

I have yet to play a game that wasn't easily breakable, D&D wasn't any easier to break than RuneQuest or Exalted.

>>52656460
5th edition D&D is a lot better. Sure there are some strategies which are stronger, like in all games, but not to the extent that it trivializes the game or renders it unplayable.

>>52616903
Because I build my character sheet around the character concept, not trying to "win" at a collaborative activity.

>>52617051
The problem with this is how many different types of saves spellcasters can inflict. The save DC is based off of the caster's primary stat, whereas the martial needs to have high stats and proficiency in that saving throw just to match it....

Yeah, better than anyone else, but your defense is still not the equal of a caster's offense.

>>52657742
Any semblance of balance D&D may have is utterly destroyed if you bring pvp into the question, and the DM shouldn't be building encounters the party doesn't have reasonable chances of surviving unless it was for something important

>>52617869
>casting for women

>>52656396
At this point you're just asking me to "accept" you're right

>>52657831
It doesn't depend on it being PvP. It could be that the BBEG is a caster. The martial, especially Fighters and their feat dumps have the best opportunities to resist spells.

>>52620543

This post was made by someone who got bullied by Chad as a kid.

>>52658052
The fighter most likely wouldn't be against the BBEG by himself. The whole party of probably 4-7 characters of similar level taking on a single guy at once is different than a fighter trying to solo a wizard

>>52621123

Don't you mean Bard or PALADIN? Sorcerers don't use swords.

When did /tg/ become eternal summer? I leave /k/ to come here and immediately it's like I'm on reddit. Not just in terms of thread quality, but the stale jokes, childish posts, and sheer babyish tears over class balance. Holy fuck, some of you are worse than /r9k/.

>>52620543
Why is it so prevalent for caster-only players to project their real life insecurities this hard into the table? It's a game. It's supposed to be fun for everyone playing. I don't think this sort of person even realizes how much of a non sequitur "intelligence is more important to civilization than physical strength, ergo my D&D wizard's 20 int means he's a god" is.

The only reason intelligence can readily translate to offensive prowess on many fantasy games is the COMPLETELY FICTIONAL concept of a magic system. If I put Mohammad Ali and Stephen Hawking on a boxing ring, who do you think is going to win? Since the source of the wizard's power is already completely fictional, there can be as many arbitrary rules and limitations to its usage as the author wishes. There's a lot of tired phrases in these threads, like "wizards make reality their bitch". Oh yeah, do you remember the time Mordred tried to stab Arthur at the Battle of Camlann but Merlin cast Hold Person and threw a fucking fireball at him? What your wizard can or can't do is entirely up to the system, setting and GM because he does. not. fucking. exist.

Same goes for what martials can or can't do. When Herakles was tricked into holding the sky in Atlas' place, did he immediately call his wizard buddy because such a task was obviously beyond his pathetic brute strength? Why should wizards be able to "make reality their bitch" while fighters are subject to real-world limitations?

>>52616903
Because while I'd never call Shadowrun 4e's rules "balanced", there is definitely a use for every player archetype in your average 'sprawl run.

>>52657878
At this point you seem have ran out of arguments for why I'm not right.

>>52649257
>Besides, there are other ways to attain immortality aside from becoming a lich

Name one. It's the most common power fantasy spell, yes, we get it...but there's no canon way to do that, so better get on your knees and start sucking the DM's dick for the chance to be a cute fuccboi in a tower for a few centuries while the Fighter has aged into a badass DILF warrior-king and become his planet's Donald Trump.

>>52658891
You first made unsubstantiated claims about 5e being just as easy to break without UA, then threw the goalposts into the fucking moon with edition wars. It gets tiresome to argue with someone like that

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>>52656396
>Also, what's the point of restricting options in a game like 5e when there are many better alternatives to it? 3.PF fills the niche of being a game where character building is it's own minigame and having so much content that pretty much anything is doable

>PF
>better than 5e

This is some really good bait! Have a (You) and tell us all about these "easy" ways to break 5e O sage!

>>52659002
If you're talking about D&D 5e, that's just about the whole point of Clone, although it's more limited than certain memers would have you believe since it takes 120 days for the clone to mature, and RAI you can only have one at a time. Reincarnate also does the trick if you have a simulacrum or another caster use it on you, as long as you don't mind changing races

>>52659025
Why would I provide broken 5e builds for you to dismiss by "any sane DM wouldn't allow that". It's not that a system cannot be made balanced by the removal of broken components, but the fact that D&D (sans 4e) has these components "hardcoded" into the system itself. 3.PF and 5e can be played without a shitshow when all the players and the DM understand the flaws of the system and don't act like asshats, but it's still generally better to play a system that doesn't have so blatant design flaws.
>>52659056
>PF
>better than 5e
That's not what I said. I said literally what you quoted:
>3.PF fills the niche of being a game where character building is it's own minigame and having so much content that pretty much anything is doable
If there were only two systems in existence, 3.PF and 5e, 5e would be better. 5e is better. But it cannot do what 3.PF does and what 3.PF does appeals to some people. And there are systems that do what 5e does, but better.

>>52659329
>as these components "hardcoded" into the system itself
The only example you've actually provided requires the usage of a optional supplement and multi-classing (which is also an optional rule) along with using the most pig-headed RAW interpretation possible of a class feature from said optional supplement. The fact that no same DM will allow it is not the only facet.
>But it cannot do what 3.PF does and what 3.PF does appeals to some people
5e also appeals to some people, which is why it recently surpassed 3.pf in popularity. Your point?

>>52625208
The martyr problem.

>>52632292
Indeed. Good time to shut it.

>>52659329
>Why balance anything when you could just play some other unspecified game my way, which you hate because it's stupid and unbalanced?

Still not seeing a point there scooter.

>>52659329
>that soft attempt to equivalize 3.PF and 5e

Nope.

>But it cannot do what 3.PF does and what 3.PF does appeals to some people

Let's be honest about what 3.PF really does to appeal to those people. It lets them act out their Caster Fantasies and make up for being physically inept by catering to their belief in their own intellect. Or, in PF's case...well, look at the OP picture for any PF General, and you'll see who it's trying to appeal to. Blech.

>And there are systems that do what 5e does, but better.

Name them.

>>52659490
>The only example you've actually provided
I have provided no examples. You have. Caster supremacy in 5e still exists. Just because the level that wizard, cleric and druid need to become overpowered is higher than in 3.PF doesn't mean it's not there. The argument that "nobody plays past level X anyway" is often used to address caster supremacy in any edition, but it's serioulsy flawed. D&D should function as well on level 20 as it should on level 5. The overpowered niche builds just bring the level needed to break the game down.
>5e also appeals to some people, which is why it recently surpassed 3.pf in popularity. Your point?
My point is that 5e rides on the D&D brand name and that it's popularity is not because of it's great game design. Again, there are systems that do what 5e does but better, and the appeal of 5e would greatly diminish if people actually bothered to try something new. Also, if you're going to ask me for example alternatives to 5e, then I belive there is thread about that up right now.

>>52659661
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. Maybe if you used less memetext and more actual quotations your posts would make more sense.

>>52659747
>I have provided no examples.

No, nor have you backed up any of your points. You can deflect as much as you like, as smugly as you like, but nobody here is remotely fooled by your bald, unfounded assertions and repeated inability to provide a scrap of evidence for your shallow, flaccid rhetoric.

>>52659842

I don't think you have any idea what you were trying to say either. It's like you realized you'd fucked up and tried to make a post so stupid and so baldly full of bullshit that nobody would take the time to respond to it. Unfortunately, you're on 4chan.

>>52659712
>that soft attempt to discredit something by greentexting

Nope.

>Let's be honest about what 3.PF really does to appeal to those people. It lets them act out their Caster Fantasies and make up for being physically inept by catering to their belief in their own intellect. Or, in PF's case...well, look at the OP picture for any PF General, and you'll see who it's trying to appeal to. Blech.

I agree. PF fanbase here on /tg/ seems to mostly consist of degenerate weebs based on /pfg/ OPs, but I can't say anything about the caster fantasies, since I don't actually lurk /pfg/.
Nevertheless, the appeal is there.

>Name them.

Certanily.
>>52635645
An entire thread to provide alternatives and discussion on their strengths and weaknesses.

>>52659844
>nor have you backed up any of your points.
Wizard, cleric and druid become OP at high levels. Just like they always did before except later.

>>52659877
It's more like you realized you'd fucked up and tried to change the subject by going meta and not addressing your original post in anyway.

>>52619153

>>52647908

I have 90% spell resistance, and better initiative.

>>52647908
>not making your reflex save

>>52652192
>wizards can and should be able to do literally anything
Shit taste in RPGs detected

>>52659844
Are you training to be a political writer? You are doing very good.

>>52616903
balanced party?

>>52657870
>Not helping to sustain your population
Are you Japanese by chance?

>>52658165
Paladins are too restrictive due to that big ass cross they're carrying on their back. There's nothing stopping a Sorcerer from focusing STR and CHA (and maybe CON) during play, especially since there're spells that allow them to improve their physical stats in a pinch.

>>52617051
>magic swords
This.
a fighter with a good magic sword can easily match the damage output of any caster, especially if he's a champion.

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I'm DMing a Pathfinder game heavily inspired by late-70's kungfu flicks, and the Martians ARE the casters. Elemental fist here, Ki-fuelled ninja crap over there, samurai busting shit up with Book of Nine Swords shit, etc.

Do both, man. Both is great.

Picture unrelated

>>52667633
Is this a kobold?

>>52626524
>Why is this popular show that's currently airing popping up on my Mongolian Basketweaving forums?

People like you are why genocides happen.