Warmachine/Hordes General

Anybody try out the Morghoul2 gunline thing yet? That guy's probably about as close to Denny1 as Skorne is ever going to get. 21" threat on the feat (without a charge), him and puffypants each toss out a Mortality, and he Fate Walkers back to safety... then your army shoots the snot out of em. Are there any guns in Skorne that DON'T love having +6 to hit and +2 to damage?

It might even be the way to play the Venator theme... you lose access to Molik, but you do get a wall for Morgs to hide behind mid-table, plus a couple free catapults (which can actually hit things under his feat). Seems good.

>>51869324
I'll try him with Stomples and a Mammoth. He seems strong, but I've get to figure him out.

>>51867924

I like how the response to "non cetrati cataphracts are shit" is "cetrati are good tho"

Like not even an attempt to mitigate how fucking terrible arcuarii and Incindiarii are

>>51869370
Right now I'm trying out this:

Morghoul 2 [+29]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Aptimus Marketh [5]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Cyclops Shaman [8]
Venator Reivers (max) [15]
- Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4]
Venator Slingers (max) [13]
Paingiver Bloodrunners [9]
Venator Catapult Crew [5]
Venator Catapult Crew [5]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]

I've definitely toyed with the Mammoth (both gargossals are actually pretty interesting with him) but for now I'm trying troop heavy and long range (for Skorne). There's probably another version of this where you focus on one turn of hyper-accurate shorter range shooting... things like Drakes and Arcuarii go crazy under feat and/or mortality.

>>51869548
Looks good. Stealth WILL be an issue though.

>>51869466
>how fucking terrible arcuarii and Incindiarii are
Why do people insist on lumping all models into the two categories of "OMG Broken" and "Unplayable Trash"? There's a definite spectrum between those two extremes. Sure, the shooting cataphracts are pretty niche, but they're still going to do work if you take them. It's not as if auto-fire AOE's or weaponmaster shooting are things you're sad you brought in your list. They're just maybe a little overpriced for how difficult they can be to deliver.

>>51869582
>Looks good. Stealth WILL be an issue though.
Definitely some truth to that. Could try to work in soulwards to deal with it. On the other hand, mass stealth (and LoS blocking) only shows up in a couple factions... maybe that just ends up being your other list.

Some varieties of anti-gunline, you might be able to just shake up your strategy too. Even with the guns on lock, Morg2 still has a nasty assassination and, into some matchups, a crippling control feat. It may be enough to just play through.

>>51869639
There is a spectrum. It's just that those two.units are on the absolute shit end.

In comparison, nihilators are "okay", swordsmen and karax are "pretty great"

Arcuarii and Incindiarii are irredeemable trash.

War Room Army

Skorne - New Army

Theme: No Theme Selected
75 / 75 Army


Master Ascetic Naaresh - WB: +32
- Archidon - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Cyclops Savage - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7)
- Cyclops Savage - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7)
- Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8)
- Aradus Soldier - PC: 16
- Titan Sentry - PC: 15
- Agonizer - PC: 6

Feralgeist - PC: 2
Saxon Orrik - PC: 4

Nihilators - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5

>>51870318
>Arcuarii and Incindiarii are irredeemable trash.
Right, except that they're not. Maybe "redeemable trash"? Like, they're not that great out of the box, but if you support them a bit they can do some good work.

As a convenient for-instance, in a heads up fight Incindiarii will make all three of nihilators, swordsmen and karax cry sad, sad tears of sadness.

http://conflictchamber.com/#b71bfL0h0j0i0j0r0r0b0lcF

Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points

(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Troll Impaler [11]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Dire Troll Bomber [19]
- Dire Troll Bomber [19]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
Fennblade Kithkar [4]

thoughts? I posted it last thread as it was dying and was recommended to put in a solo, so I threw in the Kithkar since I'm running Fennblades.

>>51869466
I don't think Arcuarii are that bad considering their guns one shot solos. And a min unit of Incindiarii is better value than a max ;^)

I like how /wmhg/ lately has been Skorne Army Lists General because every other faction has nothing to talk about.

>>51870735
I think a fell caller hero is generally considered better

Steamroller 2017 will shake up the meta, simply because it will FORCE everyone to play combined arms.

>>51871541
Not entirely sure about that. It just means that if you skew you better skew hard.

Also, if you've already cleared a zone, you won't have too much trouble running a vassal/SpellMartyr/etc. in there.

>>51871541
You only need to combined arms if you plan to win on points. Not to mention that warnouns might still be able to contest a warrior zone which sort of ruins the idea of needing combined arms.

>>51870591
Shield wall works against fire now so fire rolls on karax need 8s

>>51871725
>Karax
>Ever using Shield Wall
Nigger you best mean Cetrati.

>>51871739
Learning when to SW and when not is step1 in learning to play Karax. ARM19 is not trivially cracked.

>>51871756
Yeah but if you're putting Karax next to each other you're negating how strong a screen they make. Set Defense is all the protection they need unless you have a seriously good reason to actually use Shield Wall. It's their worst ability by a margin.

>>51871541
Or you could just go lmaoassassination

>>51871803
When you're up against POW10 shots or ELeaps you need to SW or they'll all just die.

>>51871843
The shots would be less of a problem if you just tied the cunts up in the first place :^)

>>51871675
You need to score points because scenario points matter more than assassinations in tournaments ranking.

>>51871858
You know fully well why that is not an option.

>>51871882
Not if you win every round on assassination because then you win the tournament.

>>51870735
Not to be rude, but it is a very bad list. You never want impaler in 75pts lists. Both bouncers and bombers can be run as double but probably not in that list so think what role two can fill that one cannot. You need a mauler because pp hates you and your beasts hit like wet noodles, which is only partially offset by pulverizer. Ragnor wants a runebearer and fennblades MUST have the officer&drummer. Stone scribe elder is also really good in that list.

>>51871530
Hero costs one point too many.

>Sees Steamroller 2017 spoilers
>Looks at all the stuff I bought last week for my Irusk2 list with Behemoth as the only jack.

T-thanks PP...

>>51871942
http://conflictchamber.com/#b71bfL0r9D0h0j0ibL0b0c0l0m6G

Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points

(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Dire Troll Bomber [19]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Troll Axer [10]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
- Troll Impaler [11]
- Trollkin Runebearer [4]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [5]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Fell Caller Hero [5]

I think my only problem now is that since this was going to be the end goal for a Journeyman, it has three items too many for it to properly fit. I think. It's my first journeyman so I'm not 100% on the rules, but we'll see.

>>51871725
Two thoughts there:
First, as a few others said (>>51871739, >>51871803) shieldwall is not something Karax usually use, although it does have some niche applications.
Second, against something like Incindiarii, it might actually work against you. Yes, fire is less likely to kill them individually, but on the other hand bunching up makes it much easier to set all of them on fire.

File: Kriel-Warriors_Andrea-Uderzo.png (2MB, 1040x979px) Image search: [Google]

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Gentlemen, how do we fix Trolls?

>>51872365
With garden shears?

>>51872365
More autistic screeching should help. Skorne did it, Cryx is currently doing it and Trolls should just jump on the bandwagon.

>>51872245
You only need them in 2s or 3s. Standard procedure for shield wall is to have small packets of them spread our to the extent of the command range.

>>51872038
That looks pretty decent and should get you far. If you want to make it extra good drop the impaler and make stone min+elder and get two units of fire eaters.

>>51872365
Ban krielstone, everything gets +2ARM and +1POW. It will make trolls equal to other factions point by point, remove the need to go first and make ranged game on par. It will also free up #designspace by removing stone from the stacking allowance.

>>51873040
Ban agonizer beast handlers and krea, give every skorne model +2 arm and the beasts +2 str

Huh, just saw the new faction.

So, what are people's thoughts on Grymkin in general?

I'll for Fuck Menoth: The Faction, but when it comes to otherworldly nightmares from beyond I'd probably have preferred Infernals.

>>51873040
>>51873137
Ban sentry stones and give every beast +1 fury and the ability to teleport

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>>51873196
I like their design, they certainly captured the otherwordly tone well, but probably not enough to actually get them. That said, the casters all sound fucking awesome, they went into some of their rules in the newest primecast.

I just got the original Monsternomicon a few days ago, and I never realized just how fleshed out Infernals were right from the start. Design wise they step on Everblight's toes a bit, but it almost feels like they did something different just because Infernals were the obvious choice.

>>51873040
>It will make trolls equal to other factions point by point
Your 12/18 statline is much better than the 10/19 and 11/18 that Skorne and Legion get for the same or a LOT more points. You also get bigger inbuilt threat than a Titan, Smash and Grab, and multiple self-heals on top of your animus that turns anything into a serious threat. Suck my dick if you think Trollblood heavies are even close to bad.

>>51871725
wait why does shield wall work on fire roles now? it shouldn't?

>>51869255
Never trust beautiful scantily clad women that live alone in the woods

>>51873479
Because shield wall doesn't end until next activation, and fire damage isn't back arc.

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>>51869255
>>51873551
How do you know that? It's not like this idea has ever been done before..

>>51873425
I think the consensus is that Grymkin feel like uninspired Malifaux ripoffs. They'll appeal to a certain segment, but I'm not part of it. On the upside, if you already have Neverborn models, Free Army! So, hooray, I guess?

We've only had hints about their rules, so nobody is really in any position to judge there.

>>51873479

Continuous effects don't bypass shields, because the only thing that bypasses shields is attacks from the back arc and chain weapons. It's fucking stupid, but there you go.

Find yourself on fire? Block it with your shield.

>>51872960
Yeah, thanks, I've been playing this game for more than 5 minutes. Putting them in 2's and 3's for shieldwall is "bunched up". AOE's still set multiple models on fire. In that scenario you probably lose 4 models to direct hits on average rolls, and everybody is on fire. Spread out, and you still lose the 4, but only maybe 2-3 of the remaining 6 are burning.

Karax don't have to worry about blast, fortunately, so it IS an option for them. I was just pointing out that there is also a downside, at least if you're dealing with a continuous effect. Against something like e-leaps, magic bullet, or ashes to ashes the shieldwall option becomes more appealing.

>>51874385
It kinda makes sense, from a fluff perspective. Most of the things setting you on fire are coming from the front (sprays, blasts, etc), so you just hold that shield up Dragonslayer style and block that shit. You're still on fire, sure, but the fire is mostly on your shield, not on your face. Seems ok.

When it was the other way in Mk2 everybody bitched about it, so now they did this. I'm ok with it, this way is probably more intuitive. Saw a lot of new players balk over the years explaining the various shortcomings of shield wall.

>>51873425
Godammit, Infernals would have been such a cool faction.

>>51874524

That's not how "average rolls" work.

Needing a 7 to kill does not mean 4/4 are dead. It means 58% of the ones directly hit are dead.

>>51874622
Unless you mean a max unit of 6 shots? In which case, about 3 would be dead from direct hits and 6 would be dead from direct hits outside of shield wall.

>>51872365
The faction definitely does need some love, but I think the super-cheap kriel warriors are one of the things that actually work OK. They're a bit like Karax in skorne now, you can just throw em in any list as a screen. 1.1 points per man,1.2 with the (pretty solid) UA. I know of at least one player that's been tooling around with 2 full units, just like "kill these 20 tough dudes, and then you can deal with my actual list". Quite a few popular list styles, notably heavy spam, really struggle with that.

>>51874524

Feels like it's reaaaally stretching the imagination. Like rolling boxcars for damage means oh the fire was actually on you and now youre dead. Roll snake eyes and it's a bit of warmth on your shield arm.

Maybe I'm just annoyed how the rules just don't outright say it. Like, if I recall, continuous damage has no origin of attack and so that's why it can be blocked, because only attacks originating from the back arc can't be blocked.

I mean, I get why they did it, still don't like how they did it though. Then again I think spraying someone with a template and rolling to hit everyone underneath it is also a dumb concept they went with. Templates punish clumping, but your rat 5 flamethrower will rarely touch my def 15 striders no matter how clumped together they are.

I'm just in a sour mood desu, work sucked today.

>>51870735
How good are bombers? I have very little play experience and i play protectorate. But i love troll aesthetics and the bomber is one of my favs.

So to the cuck in the last thread saying that Rasheth wasn't the best in Skorne, who do you consider to be the best, and why? At present it looks like players are only using Xerxis1, Rasheth, Makeda1, and Zaadesh2 besides a couple outliers in lower level events. Rasheth seems to be the most commonly used among those 4, and in my own play I've gotten way more juice out of him than the others.

>>51873196
Alot of people are griping about how hodgepodge they seem but from what ive been reading the units are physical embodiments of each one of the 5s different nightmares which makes sense thematically why hollowmen and the pumpkin dudes are so different. Other than that the units kind of just fit their own theme with the kits. Pumpkin guys throw that whole children of the corn "the harvest" thing and they generate resources by harvesting bodies. The hollowmen are a nasty gunline. Just parodying the idea of strategy warfare and how many people needlessly died before geurilla warfare was just deemed a smarter way to handle things. I like how they combo differently, heretics arcana with hollowmen seems fun. If i was going to play a second army and try out hordes id probably go for them.

>>51874341
>Malifaux ripoffs

Malifaux did not invent grim fairy tale aesthetics. Hell, there's only really one faction in the game with that theme.

>>51875234
I really wish the pumpkin guys weren't so pumpkin-y.

And while the idea of the pig cavalry is great, as gluttons who get fat through other people's accomplishments transformed into steeds for pig monsters, they look kinda... I dunno, out of place.

The hollow men look fucking great. Without a doubt the creepiest undead stuff in the game.

>>51875417
On primecast they said they were intended to look out of place. The soldiers of the iron kingdoms are inured to the horrors of cryx and everblight. Grymkin represents a kind of insanity that they can't handle.

>>51875417

I just find it weird to have pig monsters when there is an entire faction that is pigmen.

who's ready for a caster that can technically hit something 45 inches away?

>>51875506

...that seems a bit difficult to believe. I mean, if you can deal with Cryx and Everblight I'm not sure that Pig Cavalry will scare you.

>>51875010
Used in just about any trollblood list you will ever see, sometimes 2. Building a list usually starts with a Mauler, Bomber, and krielstone, then you go from there.

>>51876185
It wasn't about being scary, it was about being insane and incomprehensible. You can comprehend a mechanithrall or a spoopy skeleton, or an emo elf.

>>51875234

all the unit are actually former sinners that the defiers reprogrammed to be embodiments of the worst parts of themselves in urcaen then sent back to caen to fuck shit up

the hollowmen are battlefield deserters of war and now trap other souls on the battlefield.

the pumkinheads were farmers who took advantage of helpless people in a famine. Because they watched people die of starvation instead of doing something, they were forced to were a pumkin on their head that grew roots in their limbs so no they have to watch people die by their own hand without being able to help.

it's pretty cool imo

In an escalation league playing Thags1, week 1 i've only got his 28 warbeast points, was gonna use a Carnivean and Raek (27pts), how does that sound? Then week 2 I get +18 pts, eventually ending up playing 58pts. Don't ask why my store chose 58pts cause I don't know

>>51875506
This. The primecast brought to mind the same idea behind the Lovecraft mythos, just taken in a different direction. The idea that something so drastically incomprehensible to the human brain can be far more terrifying and mentaly draining than something that's 'normal' but threatening.

In this case, the grymkin aren't traditionally frightening (save perhaps the hollowmen) but they are at best offputting and on a battlefield with multiple raining down on you and harming, wounding and even killing the people around you, they drive you insane due to how out of the world it is. You can't believe it's happening because it makes no damn sense.

Cryx and everblight are scary shit, but they're mostly traditional fears: undead, scary momsters, etc. Things that, even if you haven't seen for yourself, you can't deny they exist.

>>51876288

that's a solid base to start on. is week 2 BG only or can you put anything in?

returning player and i would appreciate some advice. i have reznik1, kreoss1, and sev2.

who should i focus on building up for mk3?

>>51873560
holy shit, that's amazing. I've been losing cetratii to fire rolls :(

>>51875359
>Malifaux did not invent grim fairy tale aesthetics. Hell, there's only really one faction in the game with that theme.
Malifaux took the idea of a tabletop game based on a mashup of myths and ran with it. They absolutely didn't "invent" the original myth ideas, but the approach and the style are definitely unique and easily identifiable.

This isn't just a ripoff of Malifaux in the sense of "general concept of fairy tales as supernatural horror"; that's been done all over the place and is fair game. It's a ripoff in the sense of "all the best ideas appear to be directly lifted almost whole cloth from specific malifaux characters".

The only way it makes any sense is if the devs come out and admit the grymkin are supposed to be a malifaux homage or something. I mean, they even called the not-a-feats "Arcana" for crissake, like from tarot. You know, those cards you can use to read people's fate? Yeah, like that.

>>51876654
Grymkin were part of the IK before Malifaux even existed.

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>>51874685
>Feels like it's reaaaally stretching the imagination.
No more of a stretch than believing Peter McNichol could win in a fight against a badass dragon though, is my point.

>your rat 5 flamethrower will rarely touch my def 15
See, that one makes sense to me too... nimble elf guys can jump out of the way. At the end of the day, the rules have to serve a fun game, and if we can justify those rules with fluff, then great.

>>51874685

the only auto hits are from explosions. dodge a grenade

>>51876699
>Grymkin were part of the IK before Malifaux even existed.
That argument doesn't hold water. The things that were called "grymkin" in the old RPG bear no meaningful resemblance to this new faction. Please dig out your copy of Witchfire and point me to the bit where hordes of pigs riding on guys' shoulders attacked. Page # or it didn't happen.

Why the heck does everyone think "fairytale monsters make for a good RPG villain-of-the-week" translates to "fairytale monsters make a good basis for an army"? Hell, the only "old" grymkin we've even seen, far as I can tell, is the gentleman stranger. And even he doesn't seem to have much in common with his original incarnation.

>>51876881
Weren't glimmer imps in the monsternomicon?

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>>51876881

tell me this isn't malafeux art

>>51876881
>Hell, the only "old" grymkin we've even seen, far as I can tell, is the gentleman stranger

First off, Lord Longfellow (the spider in a trenchcoat) isn't a Gentleman Stranger. He's just a character grymkin. Secondly, they've already confirmed Gremlins, Trapperkin, and Cask Imps as well for the faction.

>>51876365

Week 1: BG only (0 pts)
Week 2: BG + Solos (18 pts)
Week 3: BG + Solos + Units (20 pts)
Week 4: BG + Solos + Units (20 pts)

>>51877167
kk anyssa is fun

>>51877233

I wanted one more beast though, any suggestions? I was thinking an Angelius or something

>>51877326

angel would be a good choice. so would proteus or another carnivean. depends on who youre up against

>>51877610
My main opponent is Cryx, I'm having trouble against the Coven feat and my lack of anything to boost attack roles. Maybe Anyssa's prey will help

>>51876881
>if it wasn't in Witchfire, it absolutely isn't in the Warmachine/Hordes/IKRPG setting
Calm your tits, are they not supposed to expand the setting beyond what you've seen before? That's like saying the greylord MoW on the way doesn't belong since we've never seen one in MoW armor before.

>>51873196
I like 'em. I like the fairy tale aesthetic and ya, there basically just the neverborn from Malifaux, but I really like the look of the neverborn from malifaux. I think the heavy warbeasts they showed are probably the least appealing, visually, to me. But the light warbeasts and all the infantry I really enjoyed.

>>51878050

Assuming you could get it within shooting range, a Seraph might help.

Worst case you could use Slipstream to push the Carny up the Coven's collective asses faster.

>>51878553
for the first week theres not much you can do vs coven. i'll parrot the seraph advice. put either raptors or hell mouth in as soon as you can add units

>>51873040
Yeah, let's make their beasts 12/20 natievely. Sure thing bro.

>>51871807
This. I'm just gonna say fuck it to random turn ending and try to just end the game when I want it to end.

NOW

>>51876148
Vayl2?

>>51878922

who's ready for a second one in the same faction?

>>51878942
Are you referring to Kallus setting dudes on fire?

>>51878910
I'm going to assume that even if you can't score an objective, you can still contest. in which case, why ever play scenario?

>>51878957

brand is a pow 14 on the initial target. it's not much but that's why i said technically

I like big healthpools, elite statlines and low model count, basically 'jackspam or MMM
What faction does this best?
Khador?

>>51879262
Yup, that's Khador. Harkevich and Karchev in particular.

>>51879278
What about man'o'war?

>>51879301
Shocktroopers and Drakhuns are good, especially with Koslov, Irusk, and Vlad2.

>>51875234
Why is a 6 year old girl one of the top 5 biggest heretics against Menoth?

I'm pretty sure all the other factions that openly fling shit at the guy have stronger contenders.

>>51873201
>>51873137
Except krielstone is 12 points, requires fury and needs to sit close. Gladiator with just the paingivers hits for 27.5, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25 (37.5 against arm 20) and is 10/19. Mauler with minimum stone hits for 29.5, 26, 17, 26, 26 (27.5 against arm 20). On top of that the stone needs to be fueled and be more forward that beasthandlers and mauler will be harder to leech from(no fury management, higher fury investment and low fury warlocks).

>>51879925
Fueling the stone is a problem and I hope they change that (free upkeeps in theme already help). The rest is just a matter of git gud.

>>51879939
>your beast deals way less damage and is about as survivable for the same points
>therefore, you need to git gud
How exactly? By switching to warmachine?

>>51879840
I think the Defiers are somewhat metaphorical. They're the embodiment of emotion and resistance, manifested as single entities. The Child is the rage aspect made into an avatar. Their original human selves may have been vessels for some reason or another that amplified these resistance paths against Menoth.

>>51880179
Or having your Warlock cast Rage. I know that's a pro technique but you'll get the hang of it.

>>51879840
So, Menoth doesn't really give much of a shit about humans, by and large.

The Defiers just happened to be the humans that openly flounced his godhood when he was actually hanging around, paying attention.

>>51880437
He really needs to get out of his edgy "Old Testament" phase if he wants to stay popular in this day and age.

>>51880448
No, that's the thing. There's no real indication that Menoth even cares about being popular. His priesthood cares a whole fucking lot, but Menoth hasn't really shown a preference either way. The only thing he really said was

"Don't worship the Wurm, build cities, and understand that I am your creator."

There's no actual, concrete proof of what transpired between Morrow and Menoth when the Twins ascended, but all Morrowans do acknowledge Menoth as their creator, and many Morrowan churches contain shrines to him as well.

A lot of the current Menite crusade shit is about the priesthood losing huge amounts of political power over the last thousand years because their religion has slowly been taken over by massive dicks(and they keep refusing to help with shit).

>>51879543
>Drakhuns are good
Interesting.

What are good khador lists?

>>51880500
Well he'll care once too many turn from him and his steady income of cheap souls runs dry.

>>51880417
If my warlock casts rage then for the comparison to be equal their casts a damage buff/arm debuff and they are still on top.

>>51880643
This is pointless. You are just salty for the hell of it. Nothing will convince you that Trolls are in fact playable. We are done here. Fuck off to the PP forums where your ilk dwell.

>>51880643
Holy shit, this is an amazing post.

I want to frame this post, show it to people. Show people what the shittest person in this thread is.

>>51880693
>>51880673
Instead of using buzzwords, show me with numbers how trollbloods can compare with good factions on point by point and piece trading basis. And I am not just talking about beasts.

>>51880749
No. I will not bend over backwards to do your homework only for you to throw another tantrum. Fuck off.

>>51880776
Because you can't. So far your examples came down to
>troll models can be just as good as other factions if you spend twice as many points and caster resources on support as other factions

>>51880796
Troll stuff is BETTER if you do that. That's the point.

>>51879840
Probably two reasons. They acted like a child even as an adult, so they're post-torture sslf looks like one. And it's important to remmeber that Menoth is an asshole qhen it comes to people who don't obey him and his punishments are fairly extreme going by the Protectorate's standards.

>>51880796
has it ever occurred to you that maybe models in different factions aren't designed to be equally as good as one another?

>>51873551
>implying a tree is not fine too

>>51880500

I really would like to see more actual infighting/religious differences within the Protectorate explored.

99% of the time it's just:

>Scrutators: WE ARE SLAPPING INNOCENT PEOPLE WITH OUR GIANT TORTURE ERECTIONS.
>Paladins of the Wall: We disprove but not enough to actually try to stop you. Despite the fact we are supposed to be one of the three pillars and the Scrutators are not supposed to be in charge.
>Avatar: I've not been relevant since Colossals and Power up came into existence.

>>51881687
Doesnt that just prove my point? Trolls clearly have not been designed as as good as other factions.

>>51882130
Trolls have problems. They are NOT the worst ever at everything and can never win.

>>51882157
They are not massively worse, but in a game where small mistakes can make the difference between a win and a loss, having to choose models that fill the same role as other models in different factions, but have slightly worse statlines for the same cost or comparable statlines for higher cost puts you in a position as if you have started the game with those small mistakes in play.

>>51882272
I know what you mean. If you ask me, the Stone should just be independent from Fury (so aura size = 3" + number of members or something) and some of their warlocks need small revamps. The good parts of the faction are really good though. Horgle, Doomy2/3 and Ragnor are really solid (sometimes literally) and there's still some undiscovered tech in the faction (Sluggers for example).

>>51882359
The warlocks are actually really decent. The only ones that stand out as bad are Jarl, eBorka and Madrak3. The stone would be solid, just how it is now, if other models weren't understatted. Now it is 12 points plus all your fury turn one and one each turn to bring your army up to other factions standard that still dies to electroleap. Look at mauler. Supposedly a superb beatstick with powerful animus. That is if you forget that warpwolves/titans/war hog/legion flightless heavies hit harder, are tougher to kill without the stone, and the rest of their beasts dont struggle to one round a light without rage. Take a look at fennblades. They are the premiere troll 10man melee unit. Best for the job, often taken. But they are still subpar compared to iron fangs, sentinels, skorne and legion swordsmen etc. Now consider that these models arent taken often in other factions because they have better value for their points in other models, while for trolls they seem like creme de la creme. Really puts it into perspective.

>>51876654
>"all the best ideas appear to be directly lifted almost whole cloth from specific malifaux characters"

Specify maybe?

I guess the Child sort of has the same thing going as The Dreamer, but the idea of creepy kids with giant monster alter-egos/protectors is older than the written word.

There's actually almost nothing in the Grymkin lineup so far that matches up perfectly with anything from Malifaux.

>the approach and the style are definitely unique and easily identifiable.

You are absolutely delusional if you think Malifaux has its own style, by the way. It has the same style as everything with a grim fairytales aesthetic.

>>51879925
The krielstone is 12 points, and in skorne you need 13 points of light warbeasts to get the same defensive benefit as the stone, but the warbeasts have a smaller effective area.

>>51882444
I don't actually play Trolls, but I thought Madrak3 was a pretty good caster? He removes the need to take Krielstone, I thought that was something everyone wanted?

>>51882655
Like, understand. To get a similar benefit as the stone, the skorne player needs an agonizer, a krea, and beast handlers. That's at least 18 points. The beast handlers don't make infantry hit harder like the stone does.

To get +2 arm against shooting, my models have to be within 3 inches of my krea, which is way less than your stone. The agonizer also has to be further forward, as it's not an arm buff but a str debuff and so the enemy has to be within 8 inches. Considering base size and reach, that means to be effective it needs to be about 4 inches behind the front line.

And even then, all we have is a STR debuff and an ARM buff vs ranged attacks. If any damage source doesn't care about STR and isn't a ranged attack it goes right through.

As far as you saying that our caster could just buff the gladiator's damage or debuff the enemy's armor? There's like 3 casters in skorne that can do that. One with abuse, two with debuffs. The rest of the damage buffs are feats. Every caster in trolls can cast Rage on a mauler.

>>51882700
He doesnt grant the elder aura and you need to camp all his fury to use it. His feat does almost nothing and his spell list is a great toolbox that answers a lot of the meta, but none of the things trolls struggle against. And his personal combat proves are just meh.

>>51875081

SKORNE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY ANON!

...And the allowance for Zaal2 was "a couple outliers", what the fuck is wrong with your head?

>>51882933
Don't engage the troll. Maybe he'll go away. Though he's been with us for some time now.

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>>51869255

Quick, post tier lists
> S
Cygnar, Khador, Skorne, Circle
> A
Protectorate, Mercenaries, Retribution
> B
Cryx, Convergence, Legion
> C
Trollbloods, Minions


How would players feel about another complete errata rewrite for the 'problem'' factions? It seems to have gone down fairly well and it would be nice to strip Trolls out and start again.
There are a lot of legacy problems that are just weighed down by excess patches, so a completely fresh overhaul would be nice.

>>51883356
Not necessary. Smaller changes would make more change at this point.

>>51883356
>>51883449
make more sense*

>>51881951
>Paladins of the Wall: We disprove but not enough to actually try to stop you
You know Paladins are an extreme minority, right? It's not a coincidence they are represented on the table by a solo. The scrutators and their hyper-loyal exemplar henchmen outnumber the paladins hundreds to one. Any sort of "paladin uprising" would just result in the paladins being wiped out and abolished. So they just do what they can, doing good in small ways. But they have no ability to control the direction of the ship.

Plus, the Harbinger generally backs Severius's claim to leadership. It's not like you can get much of schism going when the literal Voice of God throws in for one specific guy.

>>51878097
I was really just addressing >>51876699, which implies that being in the lore from "before" somehow gives this BS a pass. If you want to talk about the material on its own merits, that's something else again.

>>51882624
>Specify maybe?
Please refer to >>51874305

>>51882700
>I thought Madrak3 was a pretty good caster
Nobody really knows yet. He's very much in the standard Troll caster mold of "good but understated". He'll probably have a niche just by having Spellpiercer if nothing else, that's a great spell.

His protective aura is really just a convenience thing. It gives you some flexibility. It's possible you will also take the stone with him, for more coverage and versatility. But you have it if you need it. The rest of his kit is just all-around solid with no specific standouts.

>>51883781
Another stock trope from dark fantasy. Fae women attached to trees that lure in men have existed since the ancient Greeks.

Really, Grymkin and Malifaux have pretty different themes. Malifaux Neverborn are a hodgepodge of horror themes from everywhere, with a vaguely Victorian coat of paint. The Grymkin we've seen are agrarian horror. They're the sorts of nightmares associated with the outdoors, peasant life, and harvest season - people often refer to this as the 'grim pastoral.' Their monsters are derived from livestock, or crops, or trees. Agha herself is the archetypal witch of the forest who menaces farmers and woodsmen. The Child appears as an iconic country girl. Even the hollow men look like they're made of burlap, the kind you'd carry grain around in.

I'm not a fan of some of the models, but the Grymkin clearly have pretty solid themes running through them as terrors that prowl the edges of civilization, far removed from the cosmopolitan cities and industrial property of the Iron Kingdoms.

>>51883878
As of now, thinking the way to run Madrak3 is probably going to be a beast brick supported by a couple low-mid cost infantry units. You probably want the Fennblade boat plus something that can get good mileage out of Fortune (usually high volume shooting works best for that).

Feat early to deliver the army and then leave the infantry to their own devices while your beast brick runs amok. If you're only worried about your beasts, Mad's protective aura is probably enough on its own.

>>51883919
This makes double sense from an in-universe perspective.

Grymkin are adversaries of Menoth. Most Menites are people that live in the countryside, and even in the Protectorate, they tend to live less 'modern' lives than people in Cygnar and Ord and the like.

Their devils take the form of the things they see around them and the things they fear. Bad harvests. Mad livestock. Witches in the woods. Temptation, which is associated with the wild because Menoth is the god of civilization.

>>51883919
Aright, you know what. That's a pretty sound argument, I think you win that point. The "ugh, this looks like badly-done Malifaux" was maybe at some level just a gut reaction. I'll buy into your argument that there's something there with grymkin fluff-wise that's worth exploring.

Thing is - the gut reaction is still there. Maybe it's just that the designs are lame? I can't speak for the room, but I did an actual forehead-slapping "doh" when they showed "skin and moans" and "cage rager". That feels excessively corny in a game that already has a sub-faction made entirely from bacon and bad puns.

>>51884059
>double sense
Double sense? Like from 1984?

>>51884074
>Thing is - the gut reaction is still there. Maybe it's just that the designs are lame? I can't speak for the room, but I did an actual forehead-slapping "doh" when they showed "skin and moans" and "cage rager".

Yeah, I'm the guy that has been arguing with you, and I do agree. I don't think these things are Malifaux ripoffs and I can appreciate the amount of thought that's gone into them, but... I'm not sure I like them. I definitely like some of them, like the Rattler and the Hollowmen, and I know exactly what they're doing with a lot of the models, like the pumpkin head dudes and the Piggybacks (also nice to see an Orwell reference there). The grim pastoral can be really effective when done right (a good recent example would be a lot of the stuff in Over the Garden Wall, a 10/10 miniseries), but I think they needed to go the extra mile to make this stuff more horrifying than cartoony.

The Witchwood for example is just too Disney for me.

>>51884329
>The Witchwood for example is just too Disney for me.
I think that's really it. Now I feel somewhat inspired to do a darker-themed conversion for the whole army. I've actually got a pretty decent witch-woody type conversion I did of a wood elf Ancient for Warhammer back in the day... gotta dig that out.

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>>51883919
>>51884074
>mfw someone puts together such a well-reasoned and obviously learned argument that even people on the internet can be convinced to change their opinions

I love seeing this happen. It's like bumping into a unicorn.

>>51885733
The whole internet isn't trolls and lunatics, you know... they're just the loudest voices most of the time. I think most people are generally open-minded and can be swayed by things they read online, it's just those same people also tend toward lurking.

I really really hate the grymkin as a faction. Hate em. I think they're boring and derivative. And that's coming from someone who's historically been a huge Privateer fanboy. But as the dude says, "that's just, like, my opinion, man."

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>>51885733
>It's like bumping into a unicorn.
On a side note, bumping into a unicorn would probably hurt a great deal. Seeing one? Great. Bumping into one though... those pointy bits are sharp. Just ask the Darkness.

>>51885879
I like the idea of them, but I dislike a lot of their models.

They should have really gone the same direction as the hollowmen with more of them. Keep the ideas similar, but ramped up the horror. The pig cavalry should have been like porcine wendigos - nasty, half-butchered pig ogres with screaming human gluttons trapped between their exposed ribs, constantly being covered in whatever the monsters are eating. The guys with the pumpkin heads and scythes should have been more scarecrow than jack'o'lantern - in fact, drop the pumpkins entirely and just make them demonic scarecrows. The tree monster just needs to look less fucking cartoony. Skin and Moans needs a better pose.

All in all, good ideas, poor execution.

>>51886137
I don't get the all pumpkinhead hate. With a darker paintscheme and no white facepaint they're going to look really good. The sculpts on that unit are fine.

>>51883356
Skorne isn't S tier in the least. There's 3-4 casters who are A tier at best, most of the casters are still very underwhelming.

>>51882968
Trolls are people who add zero substance to a thread and just shit it up with vacuous replies and posts. I asked a legitimate question and got vacuous incredulous responses rather than a real answer. So who exactly is the troll?

>>51883356

Stronk tier:
Cygnar, Khador, Circle, Protectorate, Retribution, Skorne

Good tier:
Mercenaries, Minions, Legion, Convergence

Maybe not good tier:
Cryx, Trollbloods

so if I want to do a Trollbloods army with a balance between beasts and non-beasts, who would my best casters be? I've already got Ragnor, I was thinking Madrak3 so I could do a Braveheart paintjob but if there's someone better I'm gonna grab them instead

>>51888125
I think you mean

STILL THE BEST BBY:
Cryx

Stronk tier:
Cygnar, Khador, Circle, Protectorate, Retribution, Skorne

Good tier:
Mercenaries, Minions, Legion, Convergence

Maybe not good tier:
Trollbloods

>>51887931
Fair point. If you want to have an actual discussion, maybe just rephrase your statement/question in a way that doesn't make it sound like you're a know-it-all who thinks anyone that disagrees with you is a moron. Trolliness is at least as much about attitude as it is about content.

If you come into a thread and say something like:
>So to the cuck in the last thread saying that Rasheth wasn't the best in Skorne
it's pretty obvious to everyone (except you, maybe) that you're not looking for a discussion, you're looking for a fight. Nobody wants to fight, though, because an internet fight is maybe the most pointless activity a human being can engage in. The "don't feed the troll" comment, therefore, isn't that surprising.

I get that you might not have intended the comment exactly the way it came across. Your main argument and supporting points are reasonable, even if I don't personally agree. (It's definitely Makeda1)

>>51888182
>so if I want to do a Trollbloods army with a balance between beasts and non-beasts, who would my best casters be
Most of them, actually, really prefer a combined arms approach with a good mix of beasts and infantry. The Doomshapers are very beast-centric, and Madrak2 and the Grissels focus heavily on infantry. But outside of that, most Troll warlocks are typically showing up with a good mix.

>>51888252
>Implying calling someone a cuck on this site means anything anymore
Would you think the same if I'd called them a faggot?

>>51888125
>>51888229
You're both wrong.

Presidential tier: Cygnar, Retribution, Steve Bannon's Flying Circus

Good tier: Khador, Circle, PP Community Communication

Unplayable trash: Tyranids, Necrons, Guild Ball, Trollbloods

>>51888300
I'm the guy you're talking about btw. And like last time, I'm not here to convince you. If you want a meaningful discussion, provide something as a basis.

But if you just throw insults around without any substance and reiterate your shitty memes nobody will take you serious. It's a life lesson, learn it.

>>51888300
>Would you think the same if I'd called them a faggot?
Probably, yeah.

Look, you asked why people are calling you a troll, I answered - It's because of your troll-like behavior. You can go on calling people names, if you want, and the rest of us can go on ignoring you. What're you looking for here?

>>51888622

Tbh, you retards responding are just as bad as he is

>>51888622
>What're you looking for here?
4chan users, not Reddit ones.

>>51888125
>Skorne tier: Skorne
fixed

>>51888714
Thing is, that's a two way street. You're free to talk however you want and we're free to assume anything about you based on that.

>>51888904
And I'm free to shit up threads until it's answered ;^)

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>>51883356

An alternative discussion, which factions have the best internal balance? Where players can generally use every model at a decent level and nothing is a must-avoid pile of shit?
Something where you can dabble and tinker endlessly and never get bored. I'd prefer that over a bland, one-dimensional faceroller.

So Cygnar might be OP bullshit, but if every list starts with Storm Division + 10 Lancers, it gets old fast.
Skorne seem to be in a good position after the reboot?

>>51889371
Protectorate is in a pretty good place. Even the shit units people are playing occasionally, like Zealots and Deliverers. The only thing I never see are Bastions.

>>51881951
Well, one of the big issues is that the PoM Menites are semi pissed at the Khadorian Menites, who generally don't want much of anything to do with the crusade.

Hell, a good portion of the Khadorian army is made up of worshippers of Menoth.

>>51887907

Yeah, as a Skorne player, Skorne isn't even close to S-Tier.

Skorne WAS in F-Tier until they got their Errata. Now they're probably a good B to B+. They have game but nothing is broken which is actually a disadvantage for them.

I do actually think Skorne has a higher amount of playable casters though. I think there is a lot more variation in what casters you can use in Skorne than most factions. Most factions almost require certain casters to be competitive.

>>51889035

So you're just out here to be a useless piece of shit because your opinion is shit and you're upset that people don't agree with you on your favorite toy figures site.

Stay cool bro.

>>51890133
I asked a question. That's all.

Is Legion underrated when it comes to /tg/'s tier lists, or is Jake VanMeter just good enough at the game to carry the faction on his shoulders?

>>51890544

Honestly. Legion is probably in better shape than people think they are (Kind of like Cryx) but a lot of the stuff they used in MK2 has been downgraded. So Legion requires a new game plan that hasn't caught on yet. JVM is just dedicated to figuring it out.

At least that's my view of it.

>>51883356
>God (S tier)
Cygnar, Khador

>Good (A tier)
Retribution, Circle

>Mid-High (B tier)
Mercs, Minions, Convergence, Skorne

>Mid (C tier)
Menoth, Trolls, Legion

>Mid-Low (D tier)
Cryx

I was collecting some Skorne in Mk2, but never actually started playing. I have Morghoul 2(I think, the BB caster), a Gladiator and Canoneer, a unit of Arcuarii (I thought they were really cool), a unit of PGBH, and a Mortitheurge Willbreaker.

From here, where should I go in terms of collecting? Through August, I can spend about 50-100 dollars a month on this. My ideas, mostly from reading these threads, are to build a Mordikaar Despoiler/Archidon/Void Spirit list and some kind of ranged/attrition list. Anything in particular that I should look out for when building besides the usual support options?

>>51891454
The BB caster is Morg1. If he has tickle fingers, Morg1. If he's got a sword and a fan, Morg2.

>>51891454
I would go the makeda + ferox route. Also, for beasts and the collection you can't go wrong with the agonizer, Tiberion, and a Krea

>>51891454
Get some Karax. Honestly they're the best unit in Skorne.

>>51890971
Khadors broken shit keeps getting nerf hammered. A is a better guess.

>>51889371
Protectorate and Retribution.

There's not much competition for best internal balance, honestly. Protectorate has more good models, but Retribution had fewer bad models.

so is it a meme for trollbloods to always need Krielstone, or is it legitimately impossible to play without it

New player here. I can't choose between Protectorate and Convergence.

I hear Convergence is harder to play but I like their models more than Protectorate's

I like fielding lots of bots

>>51892743
if you like the look of Convergence more then go with Convergence

>>51891471
Ah, my bad. I have tickle fingers man.

>>51892782
Yeah I suppose you're right

>>51892737

To be honest, the vast majority of the time, you are going to want to take a Krielstone.

However, it is possible to build an army around units that don't really require ARM buffs (Fennblades, Highwaymen, Scattergunners, Etc.). Also, running them with someone like Gunbjorn who's feat can keep them alive might be worthwhile as well.

The problem is keeping beasts alive at ARM 18. This can make cracking armor kind of tough and that's pretty important with the amount of jacks floating around.

>>51892986

If you're learning the game from scratch, it won't be any harder to learn one or the other.

If you go with Convergence, just so you know, they are a "limited faction" which basically means, they don't really get new releases. In about 4 years they've had 1 new release. Basically, they're just one complete faction that probably isn't going to be getting new units any time soon.

>>51893034
Yeah that does worry me too

>>51893111
honestly, I started CoC without knowing it was a limited faction, got a little mad when I found out, and then realised: I can buy everything in the faction, get real good at it, then buy into ANOTHER faction when I'm ready and use both. Which is why I now have a battlebox of trolls in front of me.

>>51876504
All trash

>>51876504
Kreoss and Sev2 are pretty good. Especially Sevvy.

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have i done goofed?

Anyone know if there's an update or something for the WHAC? it doesn't seem to have the recent errata, especially for Skorne, available.

>>51895242
>Apple
Yes

>>51895242
Possibly. We don't know yet. They WILL get nerfed but I don't think they'll get Mad Dogged.

>>51895242
I sure hope you did.

My friend has convinced me to get into Warmachine/Hordes with him, and I'm looking at getting some jihadist magitech elves. My friend sold me on them being shooty bastards, but they seem to have a bunch of routes you can go down. I don't expect you guys to make my list for me, but I am curious what caster/'jacks I should go with. I'm considering Ravyn at the moment, but I have no idea if I should focus on light or heavy myrmidons.

>>51897234
Ret warjacks generally aren't that good honestly. They're more for utility than raw punching power, while your infantry tends to be able to get a LOT of work done. Dawnguard Sentinels and Invictors are incredibly powerful units, but other units can be dumb with the right caster. Rahn with Battle Mages can lose you friends.

>>51897362
So maybe utilize a bunch of light 'jacks just for the arc nodes? Gorgons stick with my goal of being shooty, Apsis sound really tough for how cheap they are, and Griffons look to be touted as badasses and appear to be hyper-mobile.

House Vyre's heavy 'jacks also seem to have a good deal of utility by slamming, knocking down, and pulling around enemy units with their guns.

How stupid would it be to keep an Apsis with each infantry unit to boost their survivability?

>>51897839
You have to remember that this is a game of 1+1=3. If your support isn't making your shit insanely hard to deal with as a single shield guard really won't, then you're better off just bringing more shit. Why support when you can just replace? If you're worried about giant AOE effects, Battle Mages might be a consideration as they're immune to blast damage.

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Finished my Karax, /tg/-kun~ n_n

>>51897234
Manticors are great to roadblock infantry focused opponents away from zones/flags. They also punch hard enough, although at a cost.

Gorgons are nice disruption and either prevent fast things from getting the alpha on you or utterly deny SPD 4 Khador heavies from going anywhere.

Chimeras are nice Arc Nodes, because it's very easy to unclog them from melee with Apparition.

Imperatus is in my opinion Retribution's universally best jack. That thing is a pain in the ass to get rid off (effectively having 47 boxes) and can do some cheeky things with sidestep to get into melee ranges your opponent thought to be safe from. Great for scenario, great for piece trading, bad for tight points and doesn't hit very hard without help.

>>51897839
Okay, so, you want at least one heavy warjack.

Generally, for Ret, this will either be a Phoenix, a Banshee, or Imperatus.

The Phoenix is a durable, hurty arc node with solid melee and shooting capability and an AoE special attack for burning up tons of infantry in close range. It's one of the best arc node packages in the game and almost every high-magic warcaster Ret has, like Issyria or Rahn, benefits from having one around.

Banshees are brutal in melee, have a fair bit of utility and power in their slamjam gun, and the ability to shut down magic and orders can sometimes be really useful.

Imperatus is straight up one of the most durable models in the game and an utter melee rapist. He's expensive as hell, though.

>>51890609
If JVM hasn't sussed it in the 7 or so months since Mk3 started then there is no plan. Isn't he one of those guys that ays every day near enough?

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>At this exact moment in time, there are people on the official forums saying Behemoth is a bad jack

>>51899055
>Reading official forums
If they spent half as much time playing the game as they do coming up with snazzy names for their memelists, maybe I'd care what the forums say.

>>51890609

I don't think Legion has really changed that much though outside of losing Machinations of Shadow and the Blightbring Warspear module.

Outside of Kallus it's still shoving a fuckload of heavy beasts with key support solos (of which I'm going to count the Hellmouth because it doesn't really function like a traditional unit). Season with Raptors, Swordsmen, and Raiders as you see fit.

I mean we're still seeing weird new lists like Ravens of War Fyanna2, but overall things aren't that different.

>>51898925
>>51898124
>>51898019
Okay, with these in mind, here's my pototype list for some casual gaymin' with my friends.

Ravyn, The Eternal Light
--Phoenix
--Phoenix
Mage Hunter Assassin
Houseguard Thane
Heavy Rifle Team
Heavy Rifle Team
Houseguard Rifleman (Leader & 9 Grunts)
--Houseguard Rifleman Officer
Stormfall Archers

Should be pretty obvious I haven't finished reading the rules; I hope to have that done by tonight.

>>51899055
Honestly, I haven't actually taken Behemoth in a while.

I don't think I've ever committed Behemoth to melee in mk3 because of how valuable he is and still not that hard to kill. After the destroyer buff, a lot of my lists have been taking a destroyer instead.

I don't think behemoth is bad, but I think that 14 point destroyers are such a bargain. Even if he has twice the ranged output plus powerful attack, a destroyer and a juggernaut feel like a better point investment usually. I can always add a mortar in for a little more infantry killing, a mortar blast is about as effective as a boosted bombard blast.

>>51899426
Actually I take that back, in an early Mk3 game I had Behemoth go into a unit of D-warded vengers that were trying to flank. I had behemoth in a spot by an obstacle so only three could actually get a charge in on him, which broke one of his arms, and then behemoth slowly punched them to death while Hark kept staggering them so they couldn't fight back. The rest of my list was able to brute force the opponent because Behemoth had been blowing shit up for the turns before that.

So apparently Mohsar can use Sands of Fate to teleport around even after using the Wild Growth animus to place a 4" forest even though the animus says you can't be placed, as Sands of Fate says you replace the model, so in an asinine way you aren't placed. So you get to place two 4" forests between the enemy and you, then teleport away to safety.

>>51899426
I tried two Destoryers after the points drop and hated them. They got engaged by enemy heavies and weren't dying but weren't doing damage either. Behemoth could have punched his way out with one arm in a single turn whereas the Destroyers sat there weakly flailing like a couple of spastics.

>>51899601
Like I said, destroyer + juggernaut.

One bombard is still going to be clearing out infantry, and the juggernaut can take on anything that tries to engage your destroyer. Or if that's not a threat, the juggernaut can move in aggressively while the destroyer hangs back. Behemoth doesn't have the flexibility, he's either back shooting or in the front line being threatened. And the destroyer + juggernaut pair brings 32 more arm 20 boxes onto the field.

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>>51899578
Sweet. Mohsar is a hoot because he's always got some crazy way of surprising you when an educated and experienced player uses him. He's really one of the best examples of a 'think outside the box' caster.

>>51899578
Source?

>>51899787
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-t2RnO52eA

What's C&C1?

>>51880796
This autistic shitfit was hilarious to read. Youre literally just throwing a fit dude. All these people are giving you examples and you dont even consider any of it you just whine more. Youre only option is to quit playing. For the last month or two ive been reading this general and its been nothing but Skorne and cryx players whining but ive never once seen someone openly bitch about trolls. They have some of the most options to pick from. Hell, theyre the first faction to have 3 collosals. Now pick and shut the fuck up.

Does anybody want to see my merc homebrews? :3c

>>51901291
Cryx can't get their heads around not playing banespam. Mechanithralls with 3 brutes attached, and the Necrosurgeon are a solid recursion flood of infantry. Sprinkle in 3 heavies and an arc node, use the infantry to absorb attention while they advance up and tear everything apart. Cryx has good infantry besides Satyxis, use your fucking debuffs.

TLDR: But muh banes
Play other shit.

>>51901879
sure, as long as you're fine explaining why they do what they do and also people calling you shit

>>51901969
I'd be disappointed if they didn't:

Bolton Crisper and ‘Darling’

Bolton Crisper was born in a gutter in Five Fingers to parents he never knew. His earliest memories are of the gangs of children that plague the poorest sections of the island, and the theft and struggle that was necessary for survival. In adolescence he found himself the leader of his band of misfits, and as they aged so did their criminal ambition. Little did he know that his petty crimes would lead him to a prize more valuable than he’d ever imagined.

One night Bolton and his gang summoned the courage to raid a freighter that had stopped in a local port for the night. Though it proved to be more heavily guarded than expected they successfully made it to the hold and began to plunder. In the search for anything of value, Bolton opened a large crate to discover a clockwork creature of exquisite beauty and craftsmanship. It was in the shape of a woman but covered in blades and, in his haste to escape with it, inadvertently activated it. This permanently bonded her to him, and Bolton found himself an incredibly deadly bodyguard in an environment where such a thing is priceless. In short order Bolton’s gang had conquered its rivals in the local slums, but this only made it easier for ‘Darling’s’ rightful owners to find them.

After the bloodiest night that neighborhood had seen in years, Bolton was left the only survivor and was forced to flee Five Fingers entirely. ‘Darling’s’ skills proved lucrative no matter where he ended up, and Bolton has stayed on the run using the funds from selling his services. Armed with a stolen rynnish walking stick and robed in the garish garbs of someone new to wealth, Bolton winds his way through western Immoren with his carelessly concealed companion.

>>51902025
But for all the changes she has brought to his life, he has no idea of her true nature. ‘Darling’ is an Iron Maiden, a horrific blend of necromancy and mechanica from the Clockwork Renaissance hundreds of years ago. Each Iron Maiden contains the soul of an innocent, held in an iron prison, and forced to act as bodyguard and assassin at the bidding of its master. Agony is the reward for failure, and even the powerful sorcery that compels obedience cannot always calm such tormented souls. Iron Maidens often slowly regain fragments of their shattered minds over the years, and a Maiden who fully awakens is indelibly focused on killing the one who’s kept it as a slave. The criminal Bolton Crisper might be less complacent with his place in life if he knew the thoughts that had begun to form behind ‘Darling’s’ immaculate mask.


Mercenary Character Unit
FA: C
Points: 7
Small Bases
Mercenary: This model will work for Cryx, Cygnar, and Khador

Bolton Crisper
Health: 5
Spd Str Mat Rat Def Arm Cmd
6 5 5 6 13 13 8
Gunfighter, Officer

Rynnish Walking Stick: Rng 8, Rof 1, Pow 12
-Black Penny: This attack ignores the firing into melee penalty.


‘Darling’
Health: 10
Spd Str Mat Rat Def Arm Cmd
6 8 8 0 15 13 8
Undead

Claw x2: Rng .5, Pow5, P+S 13
-Rend: On a critical hit, this weapon gains an additional damage die.

Berserk: When this model destroys one or more models with a melee attack during its combat action immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attack against another model in its melee range.

>>51902025
>>51902038
Overtake: When this model destroys one or more enemy warrior models with a normal melee attack, after the attack is resolved this model can immediately advance up to 1”.

Repairable: Other models can make Bodge or Repair special actions to repair this model as if it were a warjack.

Affinity (Shield Guard): Once per round, when Bolton Crisper is directly hit by a ranged attack during your opponent’s turn while within 2” of this model, you can choose to have this model directly hit instead. This model is automatically hit and suffers all damage and effects. This model cannot use Shield Guard if it is incorporeal, knocked down, or stationary.

Soul Vessel: This character has a soul and generates a soul token when destroyed.

Unwilling Captive: ‘Darling’ leaves the field if Bolton Crisper is disabled.


Notes: So the Iron Maiden is one of my favorite creatures from the new Monsternomicon, and I'd had an idea for a unit of one and its master since I read about them. It was a simple enough concept so I had no excuse not to try it out, so I dug my book and got to it.

>>51902025
>>51902038
>>51902046
'Darling's' stats and rules are almost entirely copy and pasted from the rpg, but with the addition of berzerk, overtake and unwilling captive. The prescribed rules were pretty kool, but lacked the menace these things have in the rpg, so I made her more of an infantry blender in a characterful way. Being tethered 8" to a squishy ranged solo feels like a quirky little spin on a combat model, and unwilling captive is the best way I could come up with a way to represent her subservience to him without some big crazy set of rules with her attacking him or something.

I'd originally imagined Bolton as maybe a magic user but couldn't think of anything interesting to do with that. I'd known I wanted some kind of support solo that used the Rynnish Walking Stick (a weapon from the rpg that's just a stick with a hidden gun in it) also, but couldn't think of anything else to do with that either. So I slapped one on 'Darling's' companion with the idea of him being a scum bag noble, but couldn't think of a reason for to travel as a mercenary, so he transformed into a 'self-made' noble of sorts. Black penny is a neat little rule that shows how little regard he would show someone else (especially Darling) and it interacts nicely with her by freeing her from combat to give her more options or whatever.

I was gonna make them 8 pts, but I had a hard time justifying making the range on her claws more than .5 which greatly limits her potential to shred infantry. I dunno, maybe that's even too expensive, Bolton's really not that hard to get rid of.

>>51899376
Okay, so, first of all, don't use Ravyn.

Ravyn is at present utter shit. If you want to shoot, you want Ossyan.

Kith Morrd

As a member of the nomadic Sinari ethnic group, Kith Morrd has never been a stranger to trouble. A childhood spent navigating the slums and forgotten wilderness of Cygnar has proven the perfect training for the life of a mercenary, and Kith has sold his skills to every interest and ne’er do well in western Immoren. From the criminal operations of Five Fingers to the power struggles of the wilds, Kith finds his skills in demand and his counsel often valued. But Kith has a secret: he’s a member of the CRS, and has never had allegiance to anyone but his homeland. By taking the contracts of Cygnar’s enemies he gains insight into their movements and motivations before passing what he’s learned onto his superiors. Though maintaining his cover sometimes necessitates the spilling of Cygnarian blood, he knows that in these uncertain times intelligence can ultimately mean the difference between victory and defeat.


Cygnar Ally Mercenary Minon Ranger Character Solo
FA: C
Points: 5
Spd Str Mat Rat Def Arm Cmd
7 6 6 7 15 13 9
Machete: Pow 5, P+S 11
Long Bow: Rng 12, Rof 1, Pow 10
Pathfinder, Advance Deployment


Mercenary: This model will work for Cryx, Khador, and the Protectorate

Minion: This model will work for Circle, Skorne, Trollbloods, the Blindwater Congregation, and the Thornfall Alliance

Sacrificial Pawn (Friendly non-Cygnar Warrior): When this model is directly hit by an enemy ranged attack, you can choose to have one friendly non-Cygnar, non-incorporeal model within 3” of this model directly hit instead. That model is automatically hit and suffers all damage and effects.

>>51902120
Prowl: This model gains Stealth while within terrain that provides concealment, the AOE of a spell that provides concealment, or the AOE of a cloud effect.

Snap Fire: When this model destroys one or more enemy models with a ranged attack during its combat action, immediately after that attack is resolved this model can make one normal ranged attack. Attacks gained from Snap Fire do not count against a weapon’s ROF and cannot generate additional attacks from Snap Fire.

Backstab: This model gains an additional die on its back strike damage rolls.

Stick to the Shadows (Special Action): Target friendly solo/unit within 3” gains Prowl for one round.


Notes: One aspect of the CRS that hasn’t been explored much in-game is the fact that it’s Cygnar’s espionage agency, but this is obviously kinda hard to represent outside of the rpg. What we got was a double agent type, who uses the guise of mercenary work to learn and keep an eye on Cygnar’s enemies. I kinda patterned him after the Saxon Orrik/Victor Pendrake scout mold with a ranger flair, and gave him a special action that ‘scouts’ for other models like Saxon. The Sinari ethnic group is mentioned as being proficient archers so I went ahead and replaced his rifle with a bow. Snap Fire and Swift Hunter (though I ended up removing Swift Hunter) made for a fun combo, and I like how Sac Pawn and Backstab kind of hint at his true intentions for the people he’s working with.

If I ever play the rpg, this dude would make a fun character. And is that the longest list of keywords ever, or what.

Javelin

The Javelin was the first in Cygnar’s often maligned Lancer line of warjacks, and was easily the most unreliable. Entering service around that same time as the Mule and Nomad, but ending it 20 years sooner than either, the Javelin was equipped with the precursor of the modern Arc Node, the Arcntric Relay. Though it gave casters a tactical flexibility they’d never had before, the relay itself hampered spells as it manifested them, and the frame, which was designed specifically for the accommodation of the relay, suffered in other areas. With the unveiling of the Arcane in 540 AR the Javelin was unceremoniously retired, and they all were queued for scrap or salvage in an effort to retain the secrets of the Arcantric Relay. A few unscrupulous members of the Cygnarian army saw the opportunity for profit, however, and a small number of Javelins were sold on the black market and into the thriving mercenary industry. Since then the Javelin has become an unequaled sign of status to any warcaster willing to spend the money to acquire one, but what begins as a sign of opulence often proves itself an invaluable tool of warfare.

Mercenary Light Warjack
Spd Str Mat Rat Def Arm
5 9 6 6 12 14
UA: 1
Points: 9
Same damage grid as the Lancer
Arc Node

>>51902187
War Spear: Pow 4, P+S 13, Reach

Shield: Pow 2, P+S 10, Shield +2


Arcantric Relay: Reduce the range of any spells channeled by this model by 2”.

Set Defense: A model in this model’s front arc suffers -2 on charge, slam power attack and impact attack rolls against this model.


Notes: So in an article in No Quarter 4 they have an article about the first Thornwood war, and it included a tiny blurb about this guy, including the rule adjustments between it and a Lancer. A widely available arc node in mercs sounded fun, and this guy having the same backstory as several other merc jacks made him the perfect way to make it happen. A faction getting an arc node is a pretty significant thing, there’s certainly a few mercs who’d like one, so he’s 9 pts. Pretty expensive considering his stats, spells lose some range, and you can only take one of him.

>>51901879
No. Keep that quarantined in the special snowflake section of the official forums.

>>51902110
Noted. I'll tweak things a bit too based on what I've been reading.

>>51902461
Well, if you do end up using Ossyan, you want Hypnos instead of one of the Phoenixes.

Once you've got that arc node, you don't really NEED another one. I'd suggest a Banshee for the slam gun or some Gorgons.

Invictors are better with him than Riflemen, but they'll both do their jobs.

>>51869255
Are warmahordes still the biggest 'warhammer but not really' wargame around?

>>51903429
Probably?

I think if there's a bigger game than Warmachine it would probably be one of those dedicated squad-sized model games (Infinity or Malifaux) rather than the ones allowing for proper armies.

My closest store that I can actually walk to only plays Infinity and X-wing so I have to drive 12 miles to another store

>>51901962
My cousin plays cryx. He plays alot of arc nodes cause i think they just buffed one of the chickenjacks. On my original point though the only complaint ive seen coming from trolls is the price to bring the spear thrower going up.

>>51903486
So if I am looking for actual armies gw games and wmh are the only ones I can reliably find games for? I didnt miss anything becoming the new big thing?

>>51903614
Well it all depends on what's being played near you. One store in my area advised me to not play Warmahordes because it was dying and another store almost the same distance away said that they're ending 40k events because nobody bothers to show up for the scheduled ones, while people play Warmahordes every time I go.

Just ask what gets played near you and choose what's available.

Had a He/She tournament today. Got my ass smoked. lol

>>51905547
elaborate?

>>51899235

No they really haven't but a few of the casters Legion used to use a lot of got big changes.

In particular, Vayle2 and Seryn1 got major changes that downgraded their game.

Seryn can't control zones nearly as well anymore without her old Feat allowing Angelius to Repulse and stay alive for a turn. Vayle2 lost a ton of cool spells (Obliteration, Purification, Refuge) and they got replaced by okay to "meh" spells. So she lost a lot of her spell assassination potential and range safety on her beasts from Refuge. Plus her crazy broken spell list is gone but she was good even without it.

Lylyth2 to a lesser extent got downgraded but she wasn't huge in the meta for a long time.

I think those changes alone changed a lot in Legion simply because it requires people to explore other casters that weren't MK2 monsters. Seems like Lylyth3 is becoming a thing now though.

>>51899578

Moshar actually does something cool? Nice.

>>51905782
100 points
Two casters from same faction
one male one female
Played Makeda 2 and Hexeris 2
Tibbs
2 Gladiators
Agonizer
Bronzeback
Cannoneer
Two Animantriax
Two max PGBH

seems when Khador brings three Conquests, Doomraiders, and Sorcha 2 and Vlad that POW 23 punches with 2x the damage over armor are great at popping Skorne.

:/

>>51906305
>Fluffycombo
>It's good too

>>51906343
I thought so too - I prefer fluff play to Type A Play

Is it just me that thinks Incindiarii aren't actually that bad now? I'm gonna be trying them out as a way of clearing out infantry with Xerxis1 since reposition 3 is insane on them and Xerxis1 struggles against infantry spam. POW13 guns are okay, they got cheaper, they got tough. I mean they aren't THAT bad honestly. Pseudo RNG13 is sweet when you rely on deviation anyway.

>>51906305
>One male one female
See now there's the point at which the rules went downhill because that's unbalanced as all fuck.

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So my PG is going to run a league where we take a solo and make a custom caster out of them. We get to pick between one of three generic statlines, pick some cool fluffy abilities, pick a feat and pointbuy a couple of spells from a list he made. How does this look? He's probably still too strong, this is after a first revision pass.

>>51907807
Thank god he doesn't have Madrak2's weapon because HIS FEAT AFFECTS HIM NUMBNUTS.

>>51907821
Supposed to say warcaster, missed that part.

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>ordered a dire troll mauler through my local store
>they got me an extreme on accident
This is an improvement I guess?

>>51869255
With the advent of Mk 3, has there been an errata to IK to keep it in line with any rule changes or has there not really been much movement in that regard?

>>51903657
I move a lot so that doesnt apply to me. I wanted to know what am I likely to find in general.

r8 my shit list
Ossrum1 (General Ossrum) +28
Ghordson Basher 9
Ghordson Driller 10
Ghordson Driller 10
Grundback Blaster 6
Grundback Blaster 6
Grundback Gunner 6
Grundback Gunner 6
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9) 16
Thor Steinhammer 4
-Ghordson Avalancher 17
Kell Bailoch 5
Lanyssa Ryssyll 4
Harlan Versh, Illuminated One 4
.
not sold on the basher, but i've played like one game with it. every time I look at the avalancher I feel like its way too many points for something that is pretty gimmicky but the constant threat of the knock down gun is real

>>51909621
no idea what i want to pair with this list either. Maybe I should spam a million more bunnies with ossrum and make a gorten+infantry my 2nd

>>51869255
can you still buy this stuff?

>>51903429
It' not really warhammer and never was. Their appeal is quite different.

>>51907807
Seems a tad strong. I'd remove one of those A-Tier spells.

>>51909353
There's some adaptation guide, but I forgot where it was. But the editions are similar enough for that not to matter in the RPG.

>>51909850
You can't buy it yet. The new faction should come out 2017Q3.

>>51909304
Yes. 100% improvement.

A couple of questions about warmachine character fluff.

So Stryker2 has been an evil bastard ever since apotheosis but then Legends happened and he let go of his grudge of wiping the menites out of cygnar after the events of siege of Caspia correct?

>>51910099
What would you suggest? I could drop Blinding Light I guess. What could replace it? I'd like the nuke that kaya has that gives free charges but that's not really in theme.

>>51873196
Do they have a release date yet?

>>51911215
Lock and Load 2017.

I used a Fire for Effect Mortar for the first time yesterday.

My friend doesn't want to play with me anymore.

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>>51876504
>>51894326

Dude, don't listen to that shitposter, Severius2 is one of the most legit warcasters in all the game. Best field marshal IMO and great utility spells.

Other than that, Kreoss1 did not change a whole lot (Purification went up in cost and he got +1ARM I believe), so still okay unless you run into steady things.

Can't really speak for Reznik1. I only know of one local player who tries to make him work with mixed success. I know he did get better in MK3.

>>51912047
A lot of the weapon crews seem pretty legit now

>>51876504
In general, High Reclaimer and Amon are viewed as the top Protectorate casters, and among the best in game.

Unfortunately both want to have builds that are kinda unique to them; HR likes to go totally infantry heavy, and outside of Testament and Vindictus, most casters don't really like to go *quite* so heavy on infantry, and Amon wants all jacks all the time (something that's pretty unique in faction; Tristan2 can run all jacks, but honestly, if you're going to run all jacks with Tristan2, you should just be running Amon because he does it better).

That said, there's a huge list of *very good* casters that aren't Amon or High Reclaimer.

Kreoss1, Kreoss3, Sevvy1, Sevvy2, Reznik2, and Vindictus are all excellent. (Although with the Eye of Truth out, Reznik2 will probably fall out of favor somewhat -- he didn't get any worse, the Eye just gives Reznik2's main trick to every other caster, so everyone else got better in a way he didn't)

So with your casters, I'd suggest focusing on Sevvy2 and Kreoss1, but it's really hard to go wrong as Protectorate doesn't really have any *bad* casters, just several that are obviously inferior to the (exceptionally deep) bench of great casters.

If you're returning from Mk2, you've probably got Reckoners and Redeemers, which are still excellent (Redeemers actually got *buffed* in the transition to Mk3, and are now, in my opinion, broken). You want Idrians and UA if you don't have them; they're now among the best infantry in the whole game. The new character warjack Eye of Truth is amazing with most casters, too.

>>51910738
yeah

>>51909564
Help?

>>51914932
>Unfortunately both want to have builds that are kinda unique to them
That isn't a bad thing. Infact, it's a VERY good thing, as it forces your opponent to play list chicken. If they win they get to play a fair game, if they lose they have an uphill battle.

>>51916367
Unless your opponent has brought perfect counters (lets say, Harkevich and Old Witch) for that pairing. In which case the game is pretty much decided in a coin-toss.

>>51916563
Even then, that isn't favoured AGAINST the Menoth player. With two radically different lists you're either getting a coin toss, or getting an easy win. That factions can do something like that is sort of a problem.

>>51914932
Have you fielded Eye of Truth yet? I'm kinda on the fence, either him or Scourge of Heresy.
Everyone says that EoT is great, but I haven't read one battlereport including him. Scourge on the other hand has seen a lot of play and I know he works

>>51903429
I think it's different enough to be in a different sub-genre - what we around here refer to as a "tactical skirmish" game. Warmachine is spiritually quite close to things like Malifaux, Infinity, Wrath of Kings, Wild West Exodus, etc... but different from Warhammer and its offspring in almost every regard except the miniature's scale. Warhammer is really a strategic-level game by design, even if the number of troops represented is unusually low for that approach.

When you say "warhammer but not really", that puts me in mind of games like Kings of War and 9th Age.

>>51907752
You misspelled "Fun as fuck"

>>51917250
But wmh fields only slightly less models than 40k but way more than infinity/malifaux and is in between strategy and skirmish. Kings of war are very small afaik so that is why I put this the way I did.

>>51916367
It's a bad thing for someone getting back in to the faction and wanting to play a few different casters with limited stuff in a list.

Yeah, it's great for tournaments that you can build two lists that are almost totally different (my Amon and Sevvy1 lists share only a choir), but it kinda sucks for building out a collection to just play a few different casters.

>>51916563
I'm not sure what's supposed to be the perfect counter to Amon there. I've beaten Harkevich with Amon pre-Mad Dog nerf, and twice since then without losing to him, and have never lost to Old Witch. I think in general Harkevich is an uphill fight for Amon, but nowhere near a perfect counter.

>>51916760
Yes, and he's stunningly good. He lets you ignore the other guy's DEF and ARM buffs; it's straight up letting you pretend spells like Defender's Ward, Deceleration, Deflection and Arcane Shield aren't on the other guy's card. And then he's really hard to kill (ARM 21, ignore one damage roll a turn), and still has reach and swings at POW 20 with a choirboy.

>>51917770
An average Space marine army has like 40 Space Marines in it, while in Warmachine you rarely ever see more than 20 man-sized models on one side of the table.

>>51918108
Amon can literally do nothing against the Kodiak cloud wall. Harkevich will get always get the Alpha and his Feat nullifies Synergy for the turn after.

>>51918141
Not that anon, but Space Marines aren't what you should be using for the comparison. Was 5th edition a skirmish game becaise Grey Knights could plop down a dozen models at torunament level and win?

>>51918288
Uh, most non-space marine armies use even MORE than 40 models.

1500 points of Orks or Tyranids can easily reach the 200+ models range.

>>51918169
I think you're a bit overzealous with your theorymachine.

I've played the matchup, it's not good for Amon (and it's honestly something I'd rather drop another list into), but it's not an auto-loss.

You have to be good with Enliven and Fortify to dull the alpha and then counter-feat to get enough swings out to kill a couple of jacks in return; after that it evens out a bit.

I don't want to make it sound *easy*, but it's still a game.

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>>51918394
Fair enough. Auto-loss has always been a terms of exaggeration before Circle got Una2, which truly was an autoloss for the entire game, save for 2 or 3 casters. In the end, it always comes down to the player skill and dice.

However, if you were to put 2 equally trained AIs on both sides and let them play 10 sample games, Amon would lose more of them than Harkevich.

Which is totally fine. Said Harkevich list in turn gets countered by a Retribution player running Vyros2 (or even 1).

What I'm trying to get at, is that if both players each have one list that completely wrecks one of the opposing lists, but at the same loses to the other almost every time, we see one of many problems of the 2-list format.

Not that I'm saying I have a better idea as to how this could be fixed. 2-list is a broken mess, but it sure is more stable than the 3-list meme bullshit a few dumbos are trying to force.

Maybe single list with ADR is the way to go. I really don't know.

>>51918368
Might have misread the reply chain a bit there. Sorry bout that.

>>51918567
Yep. I'd say Harkevich into Amon is between 6-4 and 7-3 in favor of Harkevich at equal skills, comapred to Una2 who was 8-2 or better against most of the game.

I'm not sure the actual incidence of the paired hard counters vs. paired hard counters is all that high, though. Harkevich is a boogeyman in my Protectorate list pairings, though, because while I *can* play Amon in to him I don't *want* to, and he (at least, with the Kodiak build) counters a lot of the stuff I want to pair Amon with (like Kreoss1 (who hates Iron Sentinel and the clouds) and Sevvy1 (who just hates the clouds)).

List chicken sucks, though.

>>51918567
>No Auto loss until Una2
>He doesn't know about Body and Soul

What are people's opinions of Power of Dhunia? I get that it is the troll's best theme force, but do y'all think that, in most cases, it is better to play in theme than out of it? I want to know if I should just stock up on a bunch of warbeasts and runeshapers, or just play an army of only beasts and free whelps or something like that.

Do people here use specialists in steamrollers? It seems like a nice optional rule.

So how about THIS for a Skorne pairing?

>(Rasheth 1) Dominar Rasheth [+28]
- Mammoth [38]
- Agonizer [6]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Praetorian Karax (max) [11]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]

Pretty much the stock Rasheth list at this point, no reason to fix something that isn't broken.

>(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Cataphract Incindiarii (max) [17]
Praetorian Karax (max) [11]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Feralgeist [2]

Karn is the ARM crack of choice because Reposition 5 lets him walk back and get screened by Karax, something he couldn't do in Mk2. Cetrati are your brick, Incindiarii keep the board empty, Agonizer keeps it all alive, Feralgeist sits on a flag like a cheap cunt. And on feat turn, Karn kills anything.

>>51921507
>>51920447
>>51920319


New Thread! With the links!

>>51921580
>>51921580
>>51921580
>>51921580

NEW THREAD!