/5eg/ D&D Fifth Edition General: Raven Queen Edition

>>51772756
What classes do you recommend MOST for storm king's thunder? What's hard to go without?

>>51772756
Something I can play on Wednesday.

I like keeping the number of classes few and Archetypes many, but I don't mind a new take.

Lore wizard. Without their versatility, the party is doomed.

>>51772756
I want another fucking Int caster that isn't wizard or as OP/invalidates another class like fucking lore wizard.
Continuing from last thread.
>>51772799
Yeah, I want to encourage them early to play scared enough that they think about what they're doing before they do it. Also, should I roll stealth for traps and pit that against their passive perception to notice something 'off' like a tile out of place? From there investigation to see what the trap is and sleight of hand to disarm if they get access to the mechanism?

>>51772364
The options in our setting are:
- Revivify within one minute with no penalty (their soul hasn't departed yet)
- Resurrection, but they come back wrong (the recipient rolls on the madness table)
- Resurrection, but the caster has to offer something in exchange (eg., a huge chunk of their own lifespan)
The latter two are both considered heretical, and most people would feel ambivalent at best about being on the receiving end. They do have a choice in whether they return or not, but they don't remember that (or anything of the afterlife) upon awakening.

We used to have pay-to-revive clerics at every temple but that just ends up being so fucking dramatically limp.

>>51772717
Fuck that's a pretty good idea.
There's actually a unicorn from our first session Summoned by a sorcerer's wild magic, and tamed by a sequential nat20 that the group is acquainted with, and I had a silly "One of you is the chosen one" trope to hook them into the adventure. Maybe they have to sacrifice it to bring him back, albeit with a curse.
I might have him revive anyways because I'm a pussy but have him attract demons, and I could do the resurrection catastrophe that I mentioned a few posts early.
>>51772811
You're right, and that's another one of the reasons why I really don't like resurrection. I think, in that sense, one revive might just might shake him up a bit.

>>51772812
They are all fine, ranger with Giants as a favored enemy and giant killer is kind of really good.

Things to soak up damage, things to pass Arcana checks on Giants and history checks would be great.

I guess bard is the best.

>>51772836
The Psion seems to be a pretty good Int class, and it also makes Int saves worth something. Maybe Int won't be a dump stat anymore for fear of having their brain melted.

>>51772845
Actually, I guess you could say that their god took pity on them and helped mitigate whatever super extreme ressurection difficulties there were, but on future occasions characters will probably suffer some major problem from ressurections.

>>51772836
Have an activated trap at the front of the entrance that will tell them traps are present.

Have a thieves cant symbol marking danger ahead.

I made traps with DCs for investigation attached to them. They rolled an investigation for a ten foot cube and if they rolled high enough they see it. I do put a few at 20 or so to be sure they don't get through completely unscathed.

Be sure to have a clear stop when traps stop though, cause then the session is boring and takes forever

Why the fuck does psionics key off of intelligence? It's about exerting mental force to affect your surroundings, isn't it? You don't have to memorize arcane formulae, you don't have to perform complex math, etc. It should key off of charisma, shouldn't it? That's what force of mind is, right? At the very least, wisdom, because of willpower saves/checks being regulated to wisdom. But not fucking intelligence, that one makes the least sense of the mentals.

Another class Int class to go with the Int skills.

>>51772896
Wizards program the universe
Psions hack it through a backdoor (the Far Realms).

>>51772896
Charisma is force of personality and emotion. Wisdom is a mental fortitude and focus, intelligence is the power.

Imagine a car, charisma is the look of it and the style, wisdom is the framework and quality of the parts. Intelligence is the engine.

>>51772896
There's two ways to tell you why your opinion is wrong and why it should be Intelligence.

The first way is to say that psionics isn't about your force of will, it's your brain working in a fundamentally different way to manipulate the world around them (much like wizards).

The second way is to tell you that we have 3 Charisma-based classes and only 1 Intelligence-based one. Intelligence as it stands is a dump stat for anyone not a wizard, and it needs to be more powerful.

>>51772965
Quantity is entirely irrelevant to a discussion about how fitting a stat is to a certain ability. There could be a thousand charisma-based classes and one intelligence-based class, and it still wouldn't matter - it's about how fitting it is. If you want, for example, another constitution-reliant class with abilities that key off of it, that's fine, just don't make it something that doesn't fit just because you need to fill the quota.

>>51773059
But Intelligence is fitting to psionics.

>>51773093
I wasn't contesting that part of your argument.
Just the last bit when you brought up the amount of classes keyed to certain stats.

Also in regards to it, artificer :^)

>>51765412
All the Gods have a variety of creatures that serve them that they can send around to help out their followers and people doing good shit for causes the God cares about (you don't necessarily have to be a devout of Ilmater to help treat the diseased and dying; showing up and helping you out is one of the primary ways by which Gods gain new followers).

Mystra reveals objects of importance and clues by surrounding them in a blue-white, pulsing glow. If you're a cool Mystran follower trying to kill a lich but you can't find the hidden entrance to his phylactery storage room, Mystra might just put a light on that for you. She also sends a VERY wide range of creatures (angelic beings, certain dragon types, a few birds and horse/donkey/mule-like animals with blue/white heterochromia) to help her followers out and will occasionally show her approval by making the character stumble across valuable gemstones.

Torm, in addition to walking around in his humanoid avatar form and smiting evil shit a lot, will occasionally show up as a huge floating gauntlet that can speak to characters, move PCs or large objects, break down walls and doors, and point stuff out. He may also cause animated swords and shields to spring out of nothingness and help defend the faithful. He may send dragons, lammasus, pegasii, and einharjer to help out as well. If you do something that pleases him, he'll stick a diamond in a nearby wall or doorway, burn an image of a gauntlet/shield/sword into fabric, or cause a white rose to grow nearby.

>>51773059
Wisdom classes don't gain the power themselves they get it from a god. Charisma does this to a similar extent save for bards.

Psionics learn it all from scratch and the only class that does just that is a Wizard. I think they are doing fine.

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>>51773162
Explain atheist paladins
Explain druids and rangers

>>51773185
Self-conviction.

>>51773205
Then it's not getting it from a separate entity

>>51772848
As a bard that is nearing the end of STK I have to say I've been quite instrumental yo my party's success. Being able to sing to the tune of giants really helps in persuading them into not crushing you.

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>>51773185
Not him, but paladins aren't a wisdom class. Their powers come from their devotion to a set of ideals. Wisdom in the case of druids and rangers represent their awareness of primeval magics surrounding them.

Remember, pretending to be retarded isn't actually trolling.

>>51772836
>I want another fucking Int caster that isn't wizard
1) Archmage patron allows warlocks to cast using Int. Class abilities include one free counterspell (no slot expended) per short rest.
2) Witch is a full caster who gets Hex in its spell list and can throw off curses as class abilities
3) Arcane Archer is a half-caster like the paladin and ranger, can use arrows to goof around with the range of spells.

>>51773264
>homebrew classes
opinion discarded

>>51773264
Archmage patron? Witch? Is that a homebrew, or what?

>>51773258
>"Charisma does this to a similar extent"
I sincerely hope you were only pretending to be retarded, anon.

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>>51773264
> Archmage patron
> Witch
N-n-n-nani?

>>51773307
I think you replied to the wrong person.

>>51773220
Yes, and?

Paladin should be a wisdom class, while cleric should be charisma class. Fight me.

>>51773280

but he didn't even post an opinion? good meme

>>51773128
In addition to sending creatures around, they like to throw out a lot of buffs.

Talos, God of Destruction, will make stormclouds that zap red lightning onto people and objects and bless, heal, or buff them. But if you're pissing him off, the cloud shoots normal lightning and smites your dumb ass. This could also be construed as his favor if it's striking your enemies, not you.

Waukeen drops money in your path where it really shouldn't be, and will point out objects of interest to her / you with floating coin "snakes" that remain legal tender.

Oghma will send a blue-green light and spooky music to let people know that he's watching them, and will occasionally give them a verbal pat on the back, tell them to fuck off, or give them a hint about something in his old man voice. Weirdly, the song that plays when he manifests is always the same, and if anyone tries to play it back at any point, the manifestation appears and will burn the shit out of them (even to death) until they stop. He'll also show up as a ball of white light that shoots rainbow lasers out of two flaming eyes to buff people.

Kelemvor will appear as a ghostly skull (with or without a skeletal arm) that points stuff out, talks (usually mentally), handle items, move people, or just skeletally bitch slap stuff. He can dispel and disrupt all undead in a wide area, or raise all nearby corpses into undead and turn control of them over to a mortal.

Gond drops items (even magical ones) into the lap of his faithful when they're in some dire pinch, but doesn't mention why or how they're supposed to be used. He leaves it up to the worshipper's ingenuity to get themselves out of that scrape with the object(s) provided, which will then disappear when they've served their purpose. Sometimes he shows up as a small black cloud or hammer to talk to and cast spells on people.

>>51773329
Nope.

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>>51773344
Okay, you're wrong?

>>51773185
I'll quote some PHB then.

Druids:
"Druids revere nature above all, gaining their spells and other magical powers either from the force of nature itself or a nature deity."

Rangers:
"... rangers acquire the ability to cast spells that harness nature's power, much as a Druid does."

Both are catalysts for the powers of nature nerd.

Paladin:

"... but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work."

The power is granted, they don't learn it. They are given it. By what, that's for the philosophers.

You could just play in a setting where it all comes from hard work but this is what the PHB says. But if your Druids Rangers and Paladins aren't from the PHB then:

Depends on the setting.

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What cute monsters has your party faced recently, /5eg/?

>>51772841
I make reincarnate the standard low level option to get brought back, unless the party are in a huge city. Easier than finding a caster 4 levels higher, and easier to obtain the materials (where the fuck are you gonna find a diamond worth 1000 gold)

Of course, this entirely depends on the players whether this is a punishment or not. If it is, it provides a pretty good quest hook for the player to search for a way to get back to their original race, without immediately screeching the current quest to a halt.

Anyone know if there's a way in Roll20 to make a macro that will change the value of an attribute?
For example, I have a monk with attribute @currentKi. I want to make a macro which will, with one click, do something like
>/me uses Flurry of Blows
>@currentKi = @currentKi - 1

>>51773344
>Paladins
>Wise
>Charismatic
Pick none.

>>51773367
An orc orphan with a shiv, trying to collect a bounty.

He almost got taken home, too.

>>51773367
>nargacuga
>cute

Motherfucker, you surely have never fought that particular son'bitch, but lemme tell ya, it's anything but

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>>51773364
Not the anon you're replying to, but I felt the need to say that oaths seem really fucking retarded in 5e. How's a nigga getting power from an oath even if he has no god? It's just fucking weird. Oaths are just oaths, nigga.

They should have kept it simple and said no atheist paladins because paladins draw from their god. Fucking hell, man.

>>51773413
Unfortunately to make macros go back and change something on a sheet, you need API access (from the $10/mo plan).

>>51773428
Something something universe isn't completely understood. Something something promises have some kind of magical bond if you can hold to it hard enough.

I usually think of it as something like that

>>51773428
It's the power of their conviction to follow the oath, in some way. force of will is basically an unstudied source of magic

Sorcerer UA is missing from the trove.

>>51773511
Got my vote for tiniest archetype ever.

I wonder if they were trying to keep it short enough they could tweet it.

>>51773349
Shaundakul has a green ghost hand that points the way and cast spells. Sometimes he'll protect the faithful in battle with walls of wind that block off enemy attacks. If things are really dire, he might warp you into a wraithform so you can fly to safety. And if you piss him off, he'll just put a wind wall in front of you and block the way.

Lliira will surround people in a bunch of dancing lights and soft music which either casts spells directly on them or places the ability to cast spells in their mind. You don't have to be a spellcaster or have any of the components or knowledge of spellcasting to use this, it's just, "You can cast Fireball once and only once now."

Mask manifests a hand that chokes people.

Selune sends not-really-will-o-wisps around to guide people at night, and they occasionally drip a silvery liquid which can be used for healing potions and shit.

Helm will animate suits of armor and other guardians, heal fighters, empower magical wards, and force ethereal, invisible, or otherwise out-of-phase creatures into a state where they can be beaten to fucking death by normal swords and warriors. Anyone who can be construed as a "guardian" or "defender" for miles around also wakes up and becomes instantly alert, with no trace of sleepiness, nausea, or weakness, and ends all charm spells.

Sune appears as a scented breeze and makes everyone nearby happier and more in tune with the pleasurable scents, tastes, and feelings of whatever is going on. She'll also surround people she likes or who are doing important things for her in a glowing pink light that heals them at the end of some task, and she occasionally hands out a drink that acts like a +Cha buff and love potion to her priests (but is poisonous to anyone else).

Is there any way to make Eldritch Knight Archer worthwhile or should I just stick with the generic "tank with magic defenses"?

I somewhat want to remake my first 5e character, who was an Eldritch Knight since they seemed like a good "generalist" that ended up as an archer by coincidence.

>>51773511
Such lazy niggers. They didn't even put a properly functional table of contents into that.

>>51773550
Why wouldn't it work? What's your definition of work?

You're still going to use your magic for defense and mobility regardless of your preferred weapon type.

>>51773428
In many mythologies, oaths have their own magical power. It's fair game and it does a good job of reducing classes that are dependent on NPCs to function.

Okay guys here's my fixes for 5e.

Cleric
>Make into a Cha class, to show how they convince the gods to give them powers and destroy their foes
Monk
>Remove all archetypes except Wot4E, base ki saves off of Cha
Psion
>Base all disciplines on Cha
Ranger
>Remove from game entirely, must be druid/fighter multiclass
Rogue
>Make into a fighter subclass, rename to thief
Wizard
>Remove necromancer, diviner, and lore wizard

>>51773550
Buy one adamantine arrow, serrrated edges, everything to get +1 to +2 damage. Weapon bond to it.

Standard action fire, bonus action pull it to your hand, fire.

Get jump spell for getting into good spots, shield, and true strike. Level 3 spells are your fly. Level 4 is greater invisibility for advantage forever.

>>51773428
If you think of it as a reverse geas spell it makes perfect sense

>>51773605
what does this fix?

>>51773605
So the only wisdom class is Druid?

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>>51773572
Sir, I like my paladins to be instruments of their god's will akin to crusaders. Not any joe schmoe who makes a promise and intends to keep it

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>>51773428
They had to change it because everyone wants the power of the Paladin class but they can't be assed to actually play, you know, a fucking Paladin, especially of a given god.

We're two editions away from Bards just becoming sonomancers who make wubwub or static noises with their mouths and don't even bother with poetry, instruments, or anything that could be considered music by someone that isn't a mustachioed, kratom-huffing hipster dipshit rambling on about "dark ambient micronoise-house".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS8YSWpBCjs

>>51773605
Eat shit/10

>>51773634
so play that instead of telling us about it

>>51773571
Well it just seems like every time someone discusses EK they never even mention ranged combat, so I assumed that was because there was little point to it when you can pick up Firebolt and be passable at range.

>>51773607
Funny that you mention that, the original character had a homebrewed Greatbow that used Javelins for ammo, so I was looking for a Lightning Javelin to use for it. (That was before I understood that you could only call it back in hand once per turn, I was under the false impression that "bonus action" meant "free action")

>>51773634
Sure, they can still be that. Besides, not anybody who makes a promise has the purity of spirit and force of will to be a Paladin. A good comparison is how not every man-at-arms is a Fighter.

>>51773629
Yeah. Spellcasters almost exclusively cast spells using their force of will. It also fits because spellcasters naturally will gravitate to the upper echelons of society, and therefore would have high Charisma scores.

>>51773550
ray of frost to slow an enemy from getting into melee range with you

shocking grasp when a foe is in melee range to back off without taking an OoA

Mending so you never have to buy arrows again, you can fix all the broken ones you fired.

>>51773162
>Sorcerer

>>51773605
What did he mean by this?

>>51773634
>this is my opinion, it is entirely subjective, but you are nevertheless badwrong

>>51773660
>Well it just seems like every time someone discusses EK they never even mention ranged combat, so I assumed that was because there was little point to it when you can pick up Firebolt and be passable at range.

Back before the SCAG cantrips, it was somewhat accepted that archery was the best way to play an EK because you could use War Magic effectively with a bow and use magic to just avoid being in melee situations. Archery just doesn't attract as much attention because there's not a lot of archers in anime.

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How do we fix gnomes?

>>51773665
Objection, fuckface.

Dwarves and Orcs were traditionally the most forceful people around with the strongest force of will, yet they had -2 Charisma. From this we can conclude that Charisma has nothing to do with magical bullshit, and is specifically how much people like you or how cute they think you are.

No one fucking likes Wizards. They're all assholes. They should have a Charisma penalty.

>>51773605
Keep fixing things that way and soon Paizo will call you offering a job

>>51773665
But their moderate/low wisdom scores means they do not have a strong mind, so enchantment spells are very common, and Druids are the only one who are able to counter such things.

Now with the fear of spell casters being magically turned, they are not put in places of power and treated fairly, as they are one failed wisdom save away from turning evil for 1 minute.

>>51772812
Bard, Wizard, Rogue and Ranger.
Deffinetly a healer which can be either a fast hands thief or cleric.
And don't forget monks for scouting ahead.

>>51773697
Add in Yuan-ti purebloods which are literally gnomes but better.

Oh, wait, Volo's already did that.

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>>51773713

>>51773634
You sound like a faggot who is entirely too preoccupied with the way Forgotten Realms does things.

>>51773705
I agree, that's why Wizards still key off of Intelligence instead of Charisma.

>>51773697
Mechanically or fluffwise?
Make them a Goblinoid subspecies that adapted to civilization/split from Goblins because Garl decided "lmao itd be hilarious"?

>>51773681
The power then comes from not their person but their connection to something, dragon blood or twisted magic. Thy still aren't starting from scratch with no magic.

>>51773715
Do you recommend the ranger (revised) to go fully into ranger for the full 10-12 levels? I was considering rogue 6/ranger 6 to fulfill those two roles, DM is a-okay with it if I decide to go that route

>>51773697
Give them more stereotypes than just inventor.

Does anyone have any homebrewed stats for the Slayer form of Bhaal, that actually make it dangerous?

>>51773765
Eberron did that. I only remember FR and Dragonlance depicting them as 100% inventors.

>>51773777
FR needs to do it, then, because nobody plays in Eberron

>>51773744
UA is definetly good and most DMs will at least allow the Hunters conclave for multiclassing.

What i suggest is:

Hunter Ranger 6/Scout Rogue 6

I suggest going Sword and Board with a rapier and wearing medium armour.
As for skills...Well you get 6 (2 from Ranger, 1 from Rogue and 2 from scout for which you get free double proficiency and still have expertise for 2 more of your skills).

>>51773795
You could go read the Eberron manuals for inspiration to use for your characters or settings.

>>51773185

>Explain atheist paladins

Wall of Faithless

>Explain druids and rangers

Nature dieties like Mielikki and Malar

>>51773829
I don't want to read a manual for a setting that's fucking shit

>>51773605
???

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>>51773697
Pre-extinction Dark Sun Gnomes.

Dwarves remain the industrious, inventive race that's good at engineering and blacksmithing and metalworking.

Halflings remain the annoyingly happy prankster-jackass race that your lelsorandum69penguin little sister always wants to play and/or the flavorless shortstack that is otherwise presented like the most boring of all humans because your munchkin player selected it solely for the stats and doesn't give a rat's ass about culture or background.

Gnomes are now the intensely studious, magically-inclined race that dabbles in transmutation and genetic fuckery rather than illusion. Instead of shitty mechanical inventions, they grow biological tools. Instead of harvesting rare plants to make some alchemical concoction, they breed slug-braclets that secrete a variety of useful biochemicals. They all have a secret Nazi streak that makes them think maybe it'd be better if they just made a nerve agent that kills everything on the planet except Gnomes. Their dreams are a fevered mixture of David Cronenberg, Guillermo del Toro, Ken Ishikawa, and H.R. Geiger. They are responsible for the creation of goblinoids; one of their past bioengineering experiments went awry and turned Gnomes into shitty Goblins, rather than the physically superior form they were hoping for, but they continued breeding them as a slave race and experimenting with making more powerful forms (Hobgobs, Bugbears) because they are devious little fucks, but a slave rebellion ended that and all the Gnomes got owned.

>>51773836
You:
>I want non-inventor gnomes.
Also you:
>I won't read this book that has non-inventor gnomes.

>>51773777
FR Forest Gnomes have a non-inventor depiction. They're literally just David the Gnome-gnomes. They walked out of a Disney movie, wear mushroom caps for hats, and talk to birds and chipmunks all day.

>>51773834
Except that's not how it works

>>51773856
Is that canon or did you just make that up? It's pretty cool either way.

>>51773869

5e is officially FR, so tow the line.

>>51773885
No, because the PHB says it is not so.

>>51773820
Interesting, my original intention was to go for: Variant human (Sharpshooter), Deep Stalker Ranger 6/Assassin rogue 6
To make someone who can knock off huge chunks of health against someone from 600 feet away before we get spotted/they realize there's a threat.
I was going to do the first level as rogue to profit on the higher amount of starting skills, too.

>>51773891

But all the adventures tailored to it do...

>>51773885
Toe*

It's meant to represent standing in a line.

>>51773550

level 11 sharpshooter fighter does enough damage to kill an archmage on an action surge before he can get a single spell off

what you REALLY wanna do is get trained in use of poisoner's kit if you can't get nature skill, and harvest poison whenever possible, slather it on your arrows, even an imp familiar (someone in the party probably has one) can add 3d6 to each hit, while a wyvern's poison does 7d6 save for half!

fighters have the unique advantage of more attacks than anyone else, poison wipes off in one hit, so archer fighters can get a lot of extra damage by using individually poisoned arrows

>>51773905
Doesn't matter. PHB says my Paladins, Rangers, and Druids don't need gods for their powers, so I'm leaving it that way.

>>51773873
Dark Sun gnomes actually did do a bunch of bioengineering before they got genocided by Rajaat's champions.

>>51773885
canon default setting for D&D is the multiverse including all published campaign worlds

>>51773926

In your fanon campaign. In my official campaign that is supported by the Adventurer's league, your atheist ass will experience true death and annihilation in the wall of the faithless.

>>51773934
Cool, where can one read about that?

>>51773950
canonically everyone goes to the Wall, usually to be tortured for a few hundred years, then eventually your god may show up to help you, or a devil may show up to recruit you

>>51773697
Fluff-wise, I've found making them into the weirdo exiles from the fey realm helps to make them interesting. It allows them to have bizarre culture motifs and be distinct enough from halflings, dwarves, or elves. For instance:

"Because of their connection to the fey, some gnomes grow horns, have hooves, bark-like skin, or even small stubs for wings. They take the most delight in puzzles, riddles, and surprises, and so enjoy the complexities of tinkering."

"Gnomes do not gender their names, generally. Surnames are picked out of a hat at age 40, after a bizarre ritual involving a duck (or parrot), four harps, a mushroom pie, and blindfolds for everyone involved."

>>51773220
No, they're getting it from the god of atheism.

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>>51773950
People always forget that a rad adventuring atheist is far more likely to be reincarnated along alignment lines than they are to ever get near the Wall of the Faithless, e.g., a Neutral Good Fighter who kicks a lot of ass and then dies is probably being reborn in Elysium as a holy furry.

>>51773965
>>51773965

That's the fugue plane, which does have the wall, but is separate.

>>51773972
Atheismo is growing too powerful these days

>>51773976
I'm talking about 5e fluff dude.

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>>51773511
>Make character who's an edgy soul-golem similar to the Broken Lords from Endless Legend
>Using Warforged as a race, thinking it's close enough
>See this
>Aetherborn is a perfect fit even down to life draining ability
sheeitt

>>51773973
>People always forget that a rad adventuring atheist is far more likely to be reincarnated along alignment lines than they are to ever get near the Wall of the Faithless,
No. 'Everyone', by canon of the Forgotten Realms, who doesn't devote themselves to patron deity (this isn't about Atheists btw, you can just think they're all dicks not worth special attention) goes into the Wall. It literally doesn't matter how good or bad of a person or how cool you were.
No ptatron god? Wall.
The Wall is meant to be unfair and bullshit, both in-setting and in meta.

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>>51773987

We're both wrong.

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>>51774004
I should make a Revenant who's goal is "MR. GODS, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL RAARRGLL REGAN SMASH"

>>51774041
Thats literally the plot of Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer

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>>51774041

REMOVE WALL

>>51773961
I got slightly confused. It was HALFLINGS that did all the bio-engineering (or the cruder form, life-shaping). So turn Gnomes into Dark Sun Halflings. Although I can't be sure Gnomes also did it. Either way, this stuff is rarely mentioned in setting fluff, since Dark Sun really tries not to go into any detail about what happened in the past, but I swear there were scattered mentions of Gnomish bio-artifice in old modules.

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>>51774041

>>51774004
The Planes can claim souls just as well as any God can. Alignments and their cosmic forces predate the Gods. Someone who lived their alignment well enough and advanced its causes, even if they were a total non-worshipper, could very much get snatched up by an Outer Plane and reborn as one of its denizens. That's how they got populated to begin with, before there even was a Wall of the Faithless.

>>51774081
That makes me want to find pdfs of 2e Dark Sun stuff without giving money to WotC because they won't just print some 5e campaign settings or compile all that old info into an edition-agnostic form.

So, again, why is Loremaster Wizard so overpowered? Honest question.

>>51774122
Because the company is not called "Sorcerers of the Coast"

>>51774122
Did you fucking read it?

>>51773950
Its kinda funny you consider the wall some kind of anti-atheist thing.
The Wall exists because the gods, even the good aligned ones, want to blackmail people into worshipping them to avoid it. And they are strictly opposed to removing it because they fear it might lead to people stop paying attention to them.
Its a enormously fedora concept, portraying all deities as worthless douche bags not actually deserving worship.

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>>51774122
If I'm being honest, the ability that interests me the most is the first one, where you double proficiency on knowledge skills as long as you're proficient in them to begin with.
It's just a really nice ability when it comes to roleplay. Having access to knowledge is better than not.

>>51774111
>The Planes can claim souls just as well as any God can.
Not in the Forgotten Realms

>>51774111
Yes, but now there's the wall. And if your bitch ass hasn't found a god then it's going straight to the wall. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 years of reincarnation. Do not escape in three turns, on doubles, or by paying 50 gp.

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>>51774171
What's so hard to remember about the forgotten realms? Why are they forgotten?

>>51774175
Technically you can always just make a deal for your soul with a Fiend, or possibly another powerful planar being to claim.

>>51770530
Yeah, lesson learned there.

Played a sleeps around dragon sorcerer and an online party member got way too into it. It was awkward. I am not cut out for ERP.
>>51770606
But why the greatsword?

>>51771309
Raven Queen doesn't have a weapon invocation yet. There's gotta be possibilities.

>>51772003
You used to have to eat the spider. It might have also had to be alive.

>>51772219
They are lost in space. They can turn on a rescue beacon, but whoever finds them may not be friendly. They should still have a way to navigate space, however. IOW, wandering monster with a map.

>>51772578
When he's revived, some monster hitches a free ride. Maybe it possesses the cleric that raises him. It could be subtle for a while.

>>51774171
That's literally how it works in FR, though.

>>51774142

How can they blackmail people when the average person knows nothing about it?

>>51773550
Use spells mainly to position your self and utility.
That being said you can cast shield on someone else within 30ft of you so you switch it to support.

>>51774122
Granted the changed damage type is not *too* big a deal, it's pretty much a slightly fun way to give players license to metagame

It's the other stuff, like changing the saves

Plus, the whole "change damage type" thing should be a sorcerer skill, specifically a wild magic sorceror skill
Or just for all sorcerors, that way anything that isn't a red, gold, white, or silver dragon could actually have RAW thematic spell lists

There is no reason why the storm sorc shouldn't be able to do "thunderball" or "lightning hands"

There is no reason why the green dragon sorc shouldn't be able to do "poisonbolt" or "wall of poison"

>>51774213
Its literally not. "The Planes" don't even exist in the planar tree cosmology the FR operate on.

>>51774218
>How can they blackmail people when the average person knows nothing about it?
They do though. The Church of Kelemvor preaches about it as do other churches if you bother to ask.

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Considering making a stereotypical "muh good/neutral guy Necromancer engineer".

Would you, as a DM, allow a player to use a second third level spell slot to add modified Glyph of Wardings to undead raised by Animate Dead set to destroy them in the event that the PC lost control (Due to time or other reasons)?

I don't mean a massive explosion like the spell normally casts, more of a small burst of Radiant damage in the right spot to destroy the animating part of the spell (In this case think of it like damaging the seal in Alphonse's armor in FMA)

>>51774122
>acts first in combat
>always uses damage types that monsters are vulnerable to
>adds 2d10 force damage on everything
>able to cast spells for a full mile
>able to make saves where failing the first one means you are disabled for the full duration
I could likely go on but I really don't need to.

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>>51773697
Problem is that every niche gnomes could fill is already filled by something else.

Mysterious and wise forest dwellers? Wood elves. Short people who live underground? Halflings. Reclusive and skilled craftsmen? Dwarves.

>>51774234
>3aboo cosmology

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>>51773950
>Adventurer's League

>>51774244
>>adds 2d10 force damage on everything

They have 4 1st level slots a day. They can use Arcane Recovery on some of those. Everything is a stretch.

>able to cast spells for a full mile
3 2nd level slots per day.

>>51774237
Yeah. Just not a portable Glyph, for obvious, barrel related, reasons.

>>51774237
>Would you, as a DM, allow a player to use a second third level spell slot to add modified Glyph of Wardings to undead raised by Animate Dead set to destroy them in the event that the PC lost control (Due to time or other reasons)?
Probably not. It changes how GoW works, which is normally broken when the object (the undead) moves too far away from the place of casting. But more than that, I think the potential story implications and situations that can arise from them getting out of control are too good storytelling material to handwave away like that. Its a good idea though and I would probably allow a custom higher level spell that does that.

>>51774237
Level 1 spell cast during the creation forces a save by your spell casting save to take damage that could kill it. It can save for half and then come after you.

>>51774237
I'd probably allow it and make it cheaper than that.

Having to spend enough money to make a glyph of warding every time and an extra 3rd level slot sounds tedious, but it'd still be good to emphasise there's a reason evil necromancers don't just put this on all of them.

Maybe a unique magic item facilitates it without you having to spend extra spell slots, or if you do want to do it maybe there'd just be some unique level 2 or so spell that you enchant your undead with.

Either way, good on you for actually thinking it out beyond 'W-well I'll look after them and feed them and take good care of them and definitely make sure none will go and murder everyone! Except the few times I inevitably will.'

>>51774237
>not implanting an alchemical timebomb or booby-trap in all of your undead that requires either constant maintenance when you re-up your magic control (so they blow up if they've been out of your control for too long) or can be struck by a knowledgeable person to instagib your undead

>>51774244
>>acts first in combat
And so does any DEX-class.
>>always uses damage types that monsters are vulnerable to
Like he wouldn't be doing that normally.
>>adds 2d10 force damage on everything
Reducing effectivity by about 40% at lower levels and being on par with others at higher levels.
>>able to cast spells for a full mile
I've yet to see an encounter with a range more than 150 feet and rapidly closing in. Irrelevant. Also, see the previous statement.
>>able to make saves where failing the first one means you are disabled for the full duration
Like he wouldn't be doing that normally.

>Be me, average wizard
>Learn about THEWALL.JPG through studies of the planes and the afterlife
>Every single one of my instincts tell me to disrespect those asshole gods for perpetuating this bullshit
>Use mastery of magic to obtain immortality through undeath and spit on the concept of an afterlife that forces you to suffer if you don't pick a god to suck up to
>Everyone thinks I'm evil now
Fucking cuck gods.

>>51774309
>Like he wouldn't be doing that normally
Normally you have a chance to save against hold person every round
Not against a lore wizard's hold person.

>>51774286
On second thought I'm changing my answer to this >>51774288

Necromancy is generally safe and harmless but you should have SOME element that is playing with fire. In this case if you die your minions go haywire and its your fault.

Even evil necromancers in the campaign I'm working on take tremendous precautions (Forbiddance etc) to keep their minions from breaking free.

>>51774335
>once per short rest

>>51774318

I'm pretty sure there is a god of undeath

>>51774341
>being able to do that ever

One thing I like about FR is that part of Tiamat's dogma is that the worship of deities is inherently unjust and that the afterlife system breaks the NAP, so she will help provide enough strength to counter it. I doubt any of that showed up in 5e though.

>>51774349
Obviously the most reasonable god.
Death is bullshit.

>>51774309
>like he wouldn't be doing that normally
considering all of the decent damage spells all deal fire, no he wouldn't be

And if you fail to see how changing a spell's saves to an easy fail stat isn't game changing, I don't know what to tell you

>>51774341
Once per short rest you can pick someone and if they fail a save they're as good as fucking dead.

Or you can upcast it and cast it on a whole group of enemies.

>>51774370
Wtf I like tiamat now
Chaotic evil my ass

>>51774237
No. It's not an accident that glyphs of warding don't work that way. The closest thing you could do is put a glyph in a room where you keep your skeletons, and have the glyph explode (or the contingent spell go off) if the skeletons try to open the door.

What you could do if you wanted to ensure the good behavior of a mobile skeleton is to put a Geas on that skeleton.

My understanding of the FR afterlife is that when you die, you might get offers from the servants of various gods (or fiends) to go to their particular plane. My impression was that you don't have to be an active worshipper of a god to get that offer. For example, a lawful good fighter might not worship any god in particular, but a lawful good god might still like him anyway and offer him a place on his plane.

The Wall of the Faithless, on the other hand, is reserved for those who actively scorn the gods and reject them. So if you're an evil warlord who doesn't worship anyone in particular, you might still get an offer to hang out with an evil war god. But if you tell that god to fuck off, you'll probably get sent to the Wall.

Tell me if I'm wrong, since I don't know for certain.

>>51774379
Whine about how unfair WotC is to sorcerers. It never gets old.

>>51774370
WTF, I hate Bahamut now. From now on I'm #DoormatForTiamat.

>>51774309
A DC17 Wisdom save is not impossible with 2-3 tries. A DC17 Strength save when you automatically fail strength saves is much different.

Two Level 1 spells now does 3d4+6d10+3, breaking their own rules for damage per spell level.

With a mile range it is easier to finish fights before the enemies know there will be a fight. If the players have the drop on them. There is zero chance of a win.

>>51774386
>Geas
>5d10
>Minimum of 5 damage
>Skeletons have 13 HP

A good idea but it's not an effective enough countermeasure to me if they have a chance, even if minuscule, to survive.

>>51774391
I've heard that Wall of Faithless exists in the first place, because during the second edition a very nasty woman was in charge, and atheist heroes offended her christian sensibilites. Don't know how true that is.

>>51774404
I'm honestly impressed there are people who don't realize still that sorcerer has problems.

And then it's even more funny when they come up with some great ideas for fixes to sorcerers, only to cuck sorcerers out of it and give it to the one class that's already overshadowing them more than anything.

>>51774433
No-risk solutions are boring and stupid

Something I just noticed... Does Aura of Protection work on death saving throws as well? I mean, for the paladin's allies at least.

>>51774452
It's a saving throw, so...

>>51774452
Yes, if something effects all saving throws that includes death saves

>>51774370
VIVE LA RÉVOLUTION

>>51774237
I'd have to give that a reluctant no. You're pretty much changing everything about the spell to the point that you could justify making a new spell and it's not even in your school specialization.

Is Bladepact Hexblade Warlock 5/Stone Sorcerer 15 good? Looks tough and looks like it will have good synergy. Only two relevant stats, one of them is both casting and melee and other is CON, ghetto smites, no need for armor cuz imma rockman and no need for weapons cuz magic weapon out of my ass, sorcpoints. Thoughts?

>>51774475
>>51774479
Holy shit that's awesome. It means it'll be much harder for me to kill anyone in my party with a 20 Cha pally... Which is good, cause I like to throw them against overwhelming odds but don't actually want them to die.

>>51774434
>Don't know how true that is.
Probably not true at all because the Wall has been from the start portrayed as a bad thing.

>>51774490
>Multiclassing with UA content

Why not just play bladepact hexblade 1 / oathbreaker 19?

>>51774433
>>51774442
Yeah, if you want to play it safe, maybe you shouldn't be creating abominations with an innate desire to kill living things that needs to be constantly kept in check to prevent disaster.

>>51774370
Tiamat can eat as many dicks as she has heads; her entire fucking race isn't the ancient space aliens they claim but were instead animal husbandry'd out of the ocean by bird people.

>>51774370
Where can I read more about that? Never seen it before.

>>51774433
>>51774442
>>51774386
Geas is definitely the way to go, yeah.
Guess he has to actually be kind of careful.

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>>51773367
>tfw dungeons and dragons turns into bunyips and billabongs

Goddamn Kiwi DM

>>51774520
underrated even if this post is like two minutes later

>>51774510
Why would I do that?

>>51774525
>>51774525

What bird people?

>>51774520
Well maybe it shouldn't be so fucking expensive to make a human size golem then!

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>>51774549
Fuck "good" necromancers.

>>51774540
but that sounds fun

>>51774544
Because if you're already allowed to multiclass into two UA content class archetypes, nothing's stopping you from becoming broken.

>>51774554
>Daily reminder that Golems are made by stuffing elemental spirits (many if not most of which are sentient) into it, therefore condemning a sentient being to captivity in a unfeeling shell for possibly millenia just to get your moving toy

>>51774583
And what exactly is broken in the combination you suggested?

>>51774583
Believe it or not, but maybe he's not wanting to make a 'broken' character and instead wants to play something with the flavor offered by the two classes mentioned

Not everyone is a munchkin like you seem to be

>>51774579
Absolutely.

Goddamn him anyway, the bastard.

>>51774554
>and messing with immortal souls
Their souls have already passed away. All necromancers do is fill long-dead bodies with evil shadowey creatures that they then effectively bind.
>magic is literally antithesis to life, they're 99% evil and they go and murder people once you stop controlling them
And this is exactly what the guy earlier is fixing by putting a sort of collar that explodes when they're out of service.

>>51774616
Oh yeah, fuck all GM's, just on principle

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>DM starts Bane-posting

>>51774613
>Enabling fun
Go away, fun-enabler.

>>51774607
Oathbreaker is already powerful enough, without giving it shillelagh (charisma) for free as a one level dip as well as an ability that increases their damage even more with the extra crits and all of that.
Usually a paladin has to take 3 levels of warlock or 6 levels of paladin to get charisma shillelagh, but here it's being given for just one single level.

>>51774630
> All necromancers do is
...actively make the world a shittier place by bringing negative energy into it and creating monsters.

>>51774528
>To Tiamat, deities of all creeds and from every pantheon are inherently tyrannical, and therefore her rivals. She considered herself the only being powerful enough to defy these gods and overthrow their despotic rule, as demonstrated by her overthrowing the other Untheric deities. Her followers worked tirelessly toward her agenda of world domination. When Tiamat assumed her throne as the only goddess of the Realms, her draconic children would served her as dukes, or so her followers believed, and her clergy struggled gain the position vassals when that moved came.

Obviously she has a strong hypocritical side but she is one of the more easy to relate to evil gods and has power to spare.

>>51774665
Creating monsters and using the monsters for labour and ensuring that the only way the monsters could cause any harm is if someone came along and, say, used disspell magic on them, when such a person could have just cast 'animate dead' instead if they have such magic anyway.


Why's it any better to bring positive energy into the world? Do you know how fucking awful unicorns are? Vile creatures.

>>51774665
negative energy is a natural part of the world and no worse than bringing positive energy into it with healing spells.
And any animating spell does that, making golems is just as problematic and animated tools can also go haywire.

>>51774545
The Aaerae were one of the fight Creator Races responsible for making many of the other races and monsters that currently inhabit Forgotten Realms.

The race itself split into protoforms of the Kenku and Aarakocra after Akadi (Elemental Lord/Lady of Air) banged a bunch of birdmen, and they used both magic and selective breeding to turn the sea wyrms into more specialized forms (including those capable of surviving on the land) to fight in their wars against each other and the giants. These wyrms were under the protection of Ialdabaoth, who would later come to be known as Tiamat. The proto-aarakocra created wyverns and the proto-kenku created manticores and domesticated all other manner of draconids.

Eventually the dragons grew some brains and wings and got some magic (or the draconic gods gave them those) and they rose up and kicked the shit out of all the bird-people. Mostly just the aarakocra, because the kenku (some of whom became tengu) had previously gotten the shit kicked out of them by demon-gnolls.

>>51774664
>a paladin has to take 6 levels of paladin
>has to take
This is some next level shit.

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>>51774630
For zombies this is true, but skeletons retain some part of themselves.

I prepared an argument that undead are just more raw flesh golems until saw that skeletons when having no orders begin to mimic what they did in life.

An undead midwife cradling a bundle of blankets doesn't really seem like a mindless golem when you say it out loud.

>>51774748
MRA here, all women are already mindless golems

>>51774710
> negative energy is a natural part of the world and no worse than bringing positive energy into it with healing spells.
This is what corpsefuckers ACTUALLY believe. "Please don't mind the fact that we're turning land into lifeless wastelands where wild undead rises by itself and preys upon living, it's only natural."

Can you take Martial Adept more than once?

>>51774775
Yes. It's dank.

>>51774775
Not by RAW, no. Only feat you can take more than once is Elemental Adept.

>>51774775
RAW, no, but that's dumb. Also don't even bother taking Martial Adept, it's bad.

Wizard/EK multiclass (Ranged EK), y/n?

>>51774768
>that we're turning land into lifeless wastelands where wild undead rises by itself
That has nothing to do with necromancy and no necromancy spell can cause this. Regular graveyards and battlefields do this.
By your logic cemetary keepers and funeral organisers are the most evil people in the world.

>>51772756
>tfw playing Ravenloft with a paladin of the Raven Queen.

So far it's only resulted in two near tpks.

>>51774768
Replace "negative energy" with "magic" and "corpsefuckers" with "magicshitlords". Nothing changes.

Fuck magic.

>>51774789
>>51774793
Never mind just looked it up you can't.

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>>51774665
>negative energy

Typical life-centric thinking, you filthy breather. Just because you don't approve of other forms of existence doesn't mean you can go imposing your mortal-morals on others, meatbag.

>>51774793
By RAW you totes can boyo, and there are more, like the one that gives save proficiencies

>>51774710
Nuclear waste is a natural part of the world guys dumping it into the lake causes radioactive mutant frog men to rise up and start killing picnicking families that's just natural guys it's no worse than aloe vera as a herbal remedy.

>reading UA for Warlocks
>oh hey, they brought back hexblade as an archetype, that's neat
>use charisma when using one-handed weapons
>one of the invocations requires you to use a greatsword

Wait, so if you take that invocation you can only use it if you give up one of your patron features?

>>51774796
I want more die for my battlemaster though.

>>51774554
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btdM9E8X5nA

>>51774804
do tell

>>51774816
So from your perspective, positive energy is evil?

>>51774830
>Nuclear waste is a natural part of the world guys
All you're saying is that necromancers need to be careful about containing the fallout of their work like a nuclear power plant.

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Why don't we just kill all magic users for altering the natural balance of energy in the world?

>>51774817
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/07/the-only-feat-that-you-can-take-more-than-once/

>>51774832
Yes if you want to join the big hitters party you can't just come with charisma. D8s can stay in charisma town.

>>51774745
Sorry, typo, meant bard.

>>51774607
>>51774664
Actually, thinking about it, I'm thinking that a hexblade-bard (3/17 split) is probably one of the most overpowered things when you consider the strength of their sort-of-smites.
Not only more spell slots than paladin, but also much better damage progression on smites.

That said, paladin wins out on over time damage with improved divine smite + oathbreaker's level 7 and has some other good points to it.

>>51774664
>>51774613
Also reading their statement again, I'm finding it really hard to defend them as 'doing it for the flavour' when there's something so incredibly obviously overpowered about the multiclass.

>>51774855
There we go with the "good and evil" crap again. It's just energy, stop applying labels to it just to satisfy your very limited perspective of existence.

>>51774768
You've both got a simplified view of things.

On the whole, Positive and Negative energy aren't any better or worse than each other. They have no leanings towards or relation to Evil or Good, which are also elemental forces. It is merely considered that Positive is "good" because it's the stuff of life, but that's a very biased view of things coming from us, living creatures.
Channeling Positive energy isn't Good, but healing people with it is. If you heal someone to death (it's possible), that could very much be an Evil act.
Channeling Negative energy isn't Evil, but creating classical undead with it always is. There are non-Evil uses of Negative energy, like using it to speak to the dead and solve a mystery or even killing a demon with Negative damage (which would even be Good).

So it's a quirk of the way the universe has decided to order itself and define what Good and Evil is that "making undead", which involves Negative energy, is Evil. But bringing Negative Energy on its own over isn't bad, and if it is, it's because you're dealing with quantities that would be dangerous even for Positive energy. You know what happens when you put too much Positive juice everywhere? Fucking Fey, and no one is under any illusion that they're Good.

There's one other imbalance here that gives Negative Energy a bad rap. Positive Energy likes to spread out everywhere, as a gas does. Negative Energy likes to pool in one place, like a liquid running down a slope. This means you are far more likely to find areas absolutely soaked in Negative Energy, which causes Bad Things to happen, but a bunch of assholes who were determined to collect too much Positive Energy in one place would be setting everything on fire, causing out-of-control plant growths and cancer, reanimating dead as equally mindless automatons, or fucking summoning xag-ya who start lasering everything.

Don't hate the player (negative energy), hate the game (undead).

>>51774830
But what if you enslave those frogmen and use them to benefit society?

If you really want to get into the morality of it, then "Good" necromancers would probably more accurately labeled as Neutral. The commit Evil in order to do Good, resulting in the action being Neutral overall. Not much different than killing orc babies, really.

>>51774944
>"Good" necromancers would probably more accurately labeled as Neutral
A Good necromancer is a person of a Good Alignment who is a necromancer. They are by definition Good. Otherwise they'd be a Neutral or Evil necromancer.

>>51774944
>The commit Evil
No they don't, because necromancy isn't inherently evil. They 'can' do evil, because everyone can, but its not tied to their profession.

>>51774830
So what's the necromantic form of radioactive hormesis?

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>Trying to think up a "fun" character concept
>Notice that Artificer gets Fabricate (unsurprisingly)
>I now want to make an Artificer that's got as many tool proficiencies as possible for fabricating stuff
>Then realize that you have to be level fucking 19 before you can get it

FUCK.

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>Play the new Hexblade Patron
Why are we just not using this?

>>51774979
>No they don't, because necromancy isn't inherently evil.
Necromancy, the spell school, is not inherently evil.
Creating undead through channeling negative energy is. They get a little more Evil every time they make a zombie or whatever the fuck. There is no way around this. It doesn't matter what their intentions are for the undead, they're getting Evil regardless. They now have to run off and do enough Good to offset their Evil gains.

>>51775022
Because unlike your garbage it's official.

>>51774912
I don't actually care about swinging for more damage, I was looking at it more for the utility of being able to keep your curse around after the target dies.

>>51775034
Just ignore it, obvious oversight

>>51775024
>Creating undead through channeling negative energy is.
Not its not. Your personal wishful thinking and subjective morality is irrelevant here.
Animating Dead is not a act of evil in 5e.

>>51775022
UA content or Homebrew garbage?
Hmm
Hmmmm
Hard choice indeed

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>>51774979
> necromancy isn't inherently evil

>>51775024
>There is no way around this.
Raising Undead isn't a evil act, you can do that in your personal campaign setting, no matter how absurd the idea is, but its not true anywhere outside of it.

>>51774979
I'm trying to be conciliatory here. My point is that even if you grant that raising the dead is Evil, doing it in the name of Good should negate that. The result, therefore, would be overall Neutral.

In other words, making undead servants tells you nothing in particular about one's alignment, provided that they're doing it in the name of helping others.

>>51775024
>Creating undead through channeling negative energy is.

In 5e, it isn't, its just "not good" and "only evil casters do it frequently."

That being said, alignments are pretty vague in 5e and there seems to be no reason why LG types can't be animators if society condones it, as the answer to "oh, so if society condoned x abhorrent thing, can you still be lawful good?" is universally "yes."

Has anyone here played a necromancer? What was your alignment? And what were some of the things you did that defined your character?

>>51775080
>My point is that even if you grant that raising the dead is Evil, doing it in the name of Good should negate that. The result, therefore, would be overall Neutral.
Thats not how Alignments work though. Doing a few acts of evil doesn't make you neutral. A Good character can lie and cheat on occassion, for example, and still be Good not Neutral.

>>51773918
It is amazingly effective to harvest poison, if you could do it without daily limits, from a PHB ranger's giant poisonous snake or flying snake companion. You could get ~30 doses or more at high level in a day of downtime.

>>51775080
There's a special kind of undead servant that was released in 3.5 that is specifically what you're talking about; Raised undead that are raised with positive energy, instead.

It's a much higher-level spell and it's far more difficult, as the undead being made are more sentient and aren't consumed with an all-inclusive hatred of the living. But it exists.

Just gonna throw in my two cents.

Necromancy is only evil if the DM says it is, because he runs the setting. I've had campaigns where I've allowed Neutral or even Good Necromancers, though my current setting forbids PCs from even casting Necromancy because of how Soul-destroyingly evil that particular setting sees it as.

So, it depends.

>>51775044
>obvious oversight
Of the players. :^)
It's not meant to give you Cha attack/damage, and super smites even though it's feelbad game design. When it inevitably comes out, it'll probably have more distinct options.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/831262145597693952

>>51775024
A corpse is just biological material, no different than golems. It happens to be a vessel purpose built for animation which helps the process, but that doesn't make it evil except in the eyes of your silly superstitions.

>>51775160
>A corpse is just biological material, no different than golems.
Also, Flesh Golems exist.

>>51775080
>My point is that even if you grant that raising the dead is Evil, doing it in the name of Good should negate that.
Not how it works. Your intentions do not matter. You can't do Evil for "Good down the line" and have it equal out or not be Evil to begin with. Again: intention doesn't enter into this. The reasons WHY you're doing something have no bearing on the actual Evil or Good-ness of the act itself.

If you create undead, boom, Evil, full fucking stop. Now you can go off and do Good with them after the fact, but you are only now trying to earn enough Good points to offset the Evil you demonstrably just did.

If you performed a magical ritual to kill an entire country and reanimate them as undead, you would accrue so many fucking Evil points at once that devils would be teleporting into your business to offer you timeshares in Hell and angels and inevitables would be raining from the sky to smack your shit in. It doesn't matter that you plan on using your enormous army of the dead to scour the land and erect new roads, windmills, and primary schools for all the children while eradicating all goblinoids. That shit is later, making undead is now.

>>51775024
Animating dead isn't evil.

The fact you're animating dead that might potentially lose control and fuck someone over and you know that is.

If you get rid of the 'potentially fuck someone over' part, it's no longer evil.

Or you could have an extremely naive character who thinks they'll never lose control and thus animates dead and tries to keep them under control and may or may not succeed. In which case their evil is an accidental evil.

>>51775170
Sure, if you want to just cram that shit together all inelegant like. I'm not judging.

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If you want an army of servants, why not...teach everyone the easy-to-complete ritual for creating a homunculus? If every single person, down to the dumbest villager, had a personal homunculus to help with their everyday tasks and work, efficiency would increase fuckloads.

Seriously, all you need is clay, ash, mandrake root, and blood. Bam. A servant for the rest of your life.

>>51775115
Tons and tons, I was lawful good, nobody had a problem, and they liked having a solid front line to protect the party. As of Tome and Blood, you can basically have unlimited minions of tough undead, so it was pretty cool.

The DM decided to rule that I became evil though, so my character became severely brain damaged due to having a violent personality shift for no reason, and went from being extremely morally rigid to becoming a hedonistic degenerate, he used Gentle Repose to keep female zombies from decaying and to keep them more "lifelike." One female party member bragged that she had a power that, if being killed by being reduced to -10 hit points, her body disintegrates, and that she'd be safe from my character. Well for some reason (probably because she didn't like necromancers? not sure), she wound up attacking my character, as it turns out Finger of Death doesn't kill you by doing hit point damage, so her body was fine.

The character was ultimately very stupid and didn't make sense anymore, I did far too many edgy things and I was ultimately relieved when after using him as a BBEG a campaign later when he became a lich, he was put to death (ironically another party member, who genuinely loved everything devil and hellish related, after he was dead, decided to open a Gate to Hell as a favor to an archdevil, which set the scene for another campaign).

>>51775170
Golems are Evil because they require enslaving an elemental to animate them. Not even debatable Evil like "well maybe my skeletons won't murder a baby", just outright objective Evil.

>>51775187
>If you create undead, boom, Evil, full fucking stop.
>[Cititzation needed]
Sorry, but your preachy bullshit doesn't fly here.
>hur dur things are evil because they offend my sensibilities

>>51774233
The whole dragon sorcerer archetype is trash and should be redone anyway. It isn't suitably draconic. You should dump strength. You can't even breath fire. WTF kind of dragon is this?

>>51775117
That depends entirely on the severity of the act.

Again, I refer to the example of orc babies. Killing innocent babies who have the possibility, however large or small, of becoming good is not a good act. Recognizing that the low chances of redeeming evil creatures such as orcs and therefore doing such an act for the sake of the greater good? The moral calculus gets complex, hence the many lengthy threads on the subject. But in my opinion the goodness and the evilness of the action balance each other out and makes the action best labeled as neutral.

>>51775227
Elementals are just dumb spirits. You might as well believe owning a dog or a mule is evil.

>>51775189
Animating dead through the usual means of channeling negative energy is evil. There are other means of "animating dead tissue" aren't evil, and other means of creating undead with positive energy (Deathless) that also aren't.

"Down the line" effects of what your undead may do if you lose control of it have zero impact on your alignment due to >>51775187
Otherwise you'd have to worry about getting Evil points if you were a blacksmith, because some guy who buys your shit may be a murderer. Fuck, even if you know the guy you're selling to is a murderer, you're not getting Evil. You could set yourself up as Chief Armourer to Killface the Dreadblooded, Scourge of All That Lives, and it would have zero impact on your alignment because all you ever do is smith swords and the universe never decided that "crafting weapons" was aligned one way or the other.

>>51775170
Construct. Not undead. Use of negative energy is to preserve the flesh, not provide the animus as in traditional undead.

>>51775235
> Hurr durr, I'm so smart because I subvert the fantasy genre
It's like certain people haven't read Frankenstein. Or watched Jurassic Park.

>>51774261
There are too many elves. There are always too many elves.

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>>51775160
The corpse is just material. What you fill it up with isn't.

In order to raise undead, D&D has always said that you fill the body with Negative Energy. Negative energy is anathema to life and using it in such high doses is bad for your morality, in addition to the morality of everyone around you.

It's like using the Dark Side of the force. Sure, there's nothing inherently evil with shooting lightning from your fingertips, the evil is in hating someone or something so hard that the will of the Force lets you generate actual fucking lightning to murder them with.

Is it kind of stupid? Yes. There isn't a good real-life analogue. But it's a fantastical element that has remained a facet of D&D since it's inception.

>>51775121
Its not clear what limits should apply, up to the DM I suppose. Many, many DMs have an eternal hardon for undead and fiends it seems that grows with level, so in many campaigns it wouldn't be a serious problem if abused. In others, things could go full retard very fast.

Seems to me that a chainlock or ranger making good use of their pet is something to be encouraged by default, though.

>>51775253

Elementals have an intelligence score

>>51775277
This nigga gets it. It's part and parcel of Forgotten Realms' setting. If you don't like the creation of undead being Evil, play in another setting or DM fiat that shit away. Don't pretend like you're the one playing the game right and everyone else who's handling this cosmology as it's been written since fucking AD&D is wrong.

>>51775222
Because they can't, because there's no rules for it, etc.

>>51774309
>Reducing effectivity by about 40% at lower levels and being on par with others at higher levels.
There is no other way for a wizard to get useful damage out of 1st level spell slots. None. There are other things you could use them for though, just not damage.

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>>51775253
Say that to my face and not online, fucker.

>>51775227

Oh I see, your entire argument is "my tastes = objectively right, your tastes = SHIT."

>>51775312
They absolutely could. You just have to have the materials, listed above, and know how to complete the ritual.
There's no rules necessary for that. You know the ritual, you gather the ingredients, you perform the ritual, and you create a Homunculus, as statted in the monster manual.

>>51775115
Several over the years and all kinds of alignments depending on the game I was playing in.
My longest running was a Dread Necromancer noble from a Duchy at the edge of its kingdom where the family all learned necromancy as part of their upbringing to use those undead to defend the borders against the extremly fast breding and numerous goblin hordes constantly threatening the borders.
He was kind of a "spoiled good" kind of guy, liked to live it up with parties in nearly ever tavern whenever he had money to spend. Big on chivalry, defending the week, noblesse oblige etc.
He got into major trouble more for his tendency to lecture other nobles for their treatment of their subjects and neglect of feudal duties than any necromancy.

>>51775271
>It's like certain people haven't read Frankenstein.
You clearly haven't. Frankenstein was about Frankenstein being doomed from his prejudice and terrible treatment of his creation, not by his act of creating it being sinful or bad.

>>51775277
Animation of the dead being particularly evil is just a 3e thing. In OD&D, 1e, 2e, 4e (kinda), and 5e, its just a vague "not a good act, and only evil casters create undead frequently."

How you choose to interpret that is up to you, I choose to interpret it as "the necromancer is morally culpable for all actions the undead perform as well as there being certain limits on how he may morally obtain the dead bodies, such as via monstrosities, donors, etc." You may choose to interpret it as "something something negative energy makes the world a darker and skurier place."

>>51774391
I've heard you go to the wall if you aren't faithful to just a single god's ideals, as well as if you only pretend to be faithful to get the benefits, like not going to the wall. Just what I heard. Don't be a god-dulterer.

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Anyone ever had just a chill session?

Like, my players spent 6 real life hours yesterday hanging out with NPCs, learning about the setting, exploring some archaeological ruins, and doing some low-key skill challenges. Hell, one of them got high with Myconids at one point.

And they loved it. I couldn't really believe how much fun they all seemed to have NOT getting into a single fight.

Chill session stories?

>>51775354
Reminder that Dread Necromancers could not have good alignment. They could be neutral _at best_.

>>51774433
Geas does the damage once a day. It'll get him sooner or later. Unless the geas times out or he gets a remove curse.

>>51775187
>The reasons WHY you're doing something have no bearing on the actual Evil or Good-ness of the act itself.

Yes it fucking does and you know it. Consider killing, which is an inherently evil act. Yet good PCs do it all the time. How can a good PC ever kill and not be considered evil? Because killing to protect others and killing in self-defense are done with good or neutral intentions.

Intentions are a factor in the overall morality of an action, just as much as the initial morality of the action and the consequent morality of the action.

>>51775341
Suffice to say, the answer to a question is "Why don't you do something requiring DM fiat?" is the "DM fiat" part and probably that there is no particular set process (other than DM fiat) to turn herds of commoners into ritualists.

Homunculi are cute though

>>51775227
Slavery is Evil but creating constructs isn't, even though it involves the binding of elemental spirits. They're not considered "living" "people" that matter.

There are elemental beings that do qualify, that you could potentially shove into a golem and would taint you slightly for enslaving them, but for the most part you're drawing on a mindless mote of animate element (usually earth, since they're the most stable) and the universe doesn't have a problem with this.

That's not to say there isn't some Elemental Greenpeace running around and smashing every wizard's shit to free earth elementals, but the one group you'd think would be most prone to that (Grumbarryn Clerics) are very much opposed to upsetting shit, and a worldwide campaign to end the practice of golemcraft is way too much "change" for them to stomach.
also grumbar is totally just waiting for the right time to press the button and [ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL]

>>51775371
>Dr. Frankenstein denied love by his parents
>turns into an asshole
>Monster denied love by Frankenstein
>develops a hatred for mankind that he realizes is a mistake only after the majority of the cast is dead, including Frankenstein

???

>>51775412
I'd fucking love my players to do something like that.
Maybe I need to up my NPC game or something.
Any tips?

>>51775264
So summoning a meteor that will then wipe out all life on the planet isn't good nor bad because it only kills everybody down the line?

This isn't a matter of 'redeeming yourself'. This is a matter of 'making sure the evil thing never happens.'

What's so inherently evil about channeling negative energy? This turns evil and good into a very simplistic 'ying and yang' or 'darkness and light' type thing where technically the evil guys could be the nicest people ever and the good guys could all be complete utter dicks, because all good and evil here really is is 'light and dark', essentially.

If you look at it from a less black and white standpoint, you do not actually do anything that harms anyone by animating those dead with those negative energies, providing you have secured a way that they cannot ever leave your control and live. At that point, if you call it evil, all your evil means is 'this person is aligned with the negative'. Whatever the heck negative means.

5e seems to be tring to veer away from the 'good and evil is light and dark' interpretation. Already, 'detect good and evil' no longer detects an evil person, but rather planar beings. A person can be completely evil now because they're a fucking dick, but that doesn't stop them from then being someone who deals radiant damage.

Does dealing radiant damage make you a better person, and dealing necrotic damage make you a worse person, or is this just some arbitary blue and orange alignment?

>>51774592
>unfeeling shell
I'm pretty sure they still feel pain.

>>51775277
lollipops and kitten farts are bad for life in high enough doses, negative energy is still just energy. Compare it with salt and fresh water, different kinds of existence need different types and levels of energy.

Even before The Force was some kind of shitty microorganism, the "energy field" had some kind of subjective values of it's own, unlike D&D energy.

>>51775427
There is no DM fiat required. Again, like I said. You acquire knowledge of homunculi and their creation ritual, and pass it on to the public so that it's no longer a rare ritual.
I mean, there's even a background that would be perfect for having discovered the method for creating homunculi.

ALL the requirements you need to know are listed in the book, anon.

>>51775414
>Reminder that Dread Necromancers could not have good alignment. They could be neutral _at best_.
I don't give a shit? I read the mechanics as much as you did, but since literally nothing about it requires you to be evil in any way, I just ignored it, because who cares?

>>51775154
Doesn't really do the hexblade any good, since it robs them of their core feature.

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>>51775439
Also picture related.

What are some good homebrew classes? I have one guy running Dragon Rider and another running Chronomancer.

>>51775429
>Slavery is Evil
Probably not in 5e, if its consistent with how society defines good.

>>51775222
Mandrake roots would fucking skyrocket. People would cultivate, exploit and monopolize this plant for the express purpose of making cash off this trend.

Would honestly make for an interesting side-plot.

>>51773511
Sell me on this setting, magic fags

>>51775466
There's no particular way to obtain the ritual, is my point. Same with how there's no particular way to obtain the creation method of a manual of golems, etc. I think, but am not sure, that rituals also require some sort of feat or class ability, but I am probably wrong.

>>51775479
They're all shit.

No, really.

The best out there is maybe the pugilist (which is just a shitty barbarogue wannabe that enables people to play strength monk) and blood hunter (Whatever matt mercer thing it was, it's not actually that bad but not super great either).

From there down it only gets worse and worse.

If you post whatever classes the dragon rider (I think I might've seen that one) and the chronomancer are, I'm pretty sure I could find AT LEAST ten things terribly, terribly wrong with them.

>>51775468
This post is basically the entire argument of necrofags in this thread.
> I know the fluff of the game does not support me, the rules of the game do not support me, fantasy tropes do not support my vision and basic logic doesn't support my vision, but I'm right and you're wrong.
> Because muh gray morality!

>>51773555
It's one dude's lunch break project

>>51774309
>And so does any DEX-class.
Dex classes cant launch fireballs at the still tightly grouped enemy forces, can they?

>>51773605
>How to fix monk
>remove options

I am so fucking glad you are not in charge of this anon. I mean what the fuck were you thinking my man?

>>51775425
Killing isn't evil. Murder is. Methodology is important. Circumstance (of the act) is important.
The universe has like 90 different flavors of "ending the life of another creature" baked into its rule book with varying degrees of "Evil" or "Not Evil" prescribed to them.

Here's a bad guy holding a bunch of children hostage. He's got knives to their necks. Killing him isn't Evil, but neither is it Good. Saving the children is Good. If you stop him without killing him, you manage the same amount of Good, so it's just easier to shoot the guy through the head. It's not as Good as stopping him and reforming him, which is what a truly Good person would want to do, nor is it as Lawful (because he needs to face justice you aren't qualified to mete out), but it's not exactly Chaotic, either.

Here's the same guy, but he hasn't taken the children hostage yet. You know he plans on doing it, though. Stabbing him in the back as he's walking down the street is Evil. Even though he's a bad guy, even though you know he's about to do something bad, you just fucking murdered him. Your intention was the same (stop a bad guy, save children), but the act was very much different. Evil. Don't do that.

Here's a demon. Killing it is Good, because it's a demon and they have an asterisk next to their names in the universal book of creatures.

Here's that same demon currently in the process of boning the legitimate love of its life, a noblewoman who is fully aware of its heritage, was not coerced or magically seduced in any way, and simple desires to spend time with her infernally beloved. Killing that demon in the middle of his bone sesh would be Evil. You are still ending the life of a demon, so that's Good, but not really enough to completely override your completely uncalled-for murder. You have to wait until he's done, then scream, "Defend yourself, foul demonspawn," and run him through with your holy avenger. Nothing but Good points then.

>>51775412
I give players 1-2 chill sessions after every "story arc" because it does a great job at fleshing out the characters and having them explore.

Recently I ran a festival and one character who is cursed to weight 500+ lbs actively used that to exploit a "guess the weight" minigame. It was one of the funniest sessions we did.

>>51775536
>This post is basically the entire argument of necrofags in this thread.
No? Back in 3e raising undead and the spell were tagged as evil. Thus in 3e by RAW it was evil, no matter how much that made no sense.
Now in 5e, its not. So its not evil.
Its only the "muh necromancy is ebul" crowd that tries to argue against RAW.

>>51775489
Probably more in 5e more than anything because slavery is inherently 'Yeah, I don't care about how all these slaves feel.'

At the very best it's lawful neutral where being a slave is part of their social standing and they could always become freemen in the future if they do well.

The only way slavery could be good on 5e terms is if the slavery is absolutely required in order to maintain everybody's well-being and happiness.

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>>51775524
Dragon Rider is the .pdf here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzArt9stiOmmdmJqVkRmaUFDSFk/view <- Chronomancer.

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>>51775536
>fluff, tropes
Ok
>rules, logic
Nope

try again, dipshit.

>>51775519
"Shaping a mixture of clay, ash, mandrake root, and
blood, one can channel rare ritual magic to create a
faithful, squirrel-sized companion."

The wording is a little strange here. It doesn't say perform a ritual, but rather that you channel "A ritual magic". Does that imply that the mixture that you shape does the work for the most part?

>>51775436
>tips
Always build the setting in advance. That way improvising becomes second nature because you have a reliable framework to build everything off.

>>51775560
That sounds amazing!

>>51775536
>Let me just conglomerate all the different arguments in the thread into one indistinct strawman
>That'll show them!

Man, you really rocked my beliefs about the morality of doing evil for the sake of good with your superb rhetoric.

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I really don't care for the Artificer, neither the WIZ one or the class (The class one due to Fabricate being so stupidly far along the level tier for them).

Would you let a player use a Forge Theurge as a makeshift one?

This is assuming the game wouldn't get to 14 anyways, but hypothetically I'd say push back the level 14 ability to 17.

It's mainly the Channel Divinity to construct things I'm interested in.

>>51775558
I'm pretty sure it's A-OK to kill demons and devils whenever you can.

Similarly, it's never been unLawful (alignment law, not mortal law) to kill a violent criminal in D&D.

>>51775558
>>51775425
Here's a troll village. They're raiding the countryside, eating everyone, wrecking shit, being a general nuisance. Killing them is Good.
They have (troll) women and children in their camp. These aren't participating in any of the wanton slaughter. Holding an impromptu auto-de-fe for defenseless troll children is Evil, even though you know they're almost assuredly going to grow up and eat people. Don't do that.

Here's another troll village, but they're not eating people or wrecking shit. They eat deer and build log cabins. Now, they're trolls, and you just got done (righteously) exterminating another troll town for some Good points, but it would not be Good to walk into this one and start killing everyone, even if you limited yourself to just the able-bodied mentrolls.

>>51775597
Gathering and combining the materials is the ritual.

>>51775621
Adventurers raid monster settlements all the time to make the area safer for the mortal races. Not evil. Not always worth Good Boy Points, but almost never evil.

>>51774924
Everyone always jumps to "what about a warlock 3/othercaster 17 multiclass for more spell slots" but the warlock 20 gets plenty of smite power, fights better than the bard or sorcerer version normally, and doesn't have to spend their 6th-9th level spells, like foresight, to do it. It's shocking how deep the "warlocks are bad" meme is entrenched.

>>51775293
>>51775322
Apes have intelligence scores equal to or higher than elementals. Mastiffs and elephants have the same intelligence score as most golems. There is literally nothing wrong with taking an elemental spirit and sticking it in a golem.

>>51775606
>Similarly, it's never been unLawful (alignment law, not mortal law) to kill a violent criminal in D&D.
It's un-Lawful, but only in the sense that un-Lawful is Neutral, and anti-Lawful is Chaotic. Killing a violent criminal doesn't shift you away from Lawful in the slightest, but you are missing an opportunity to become MORE Lawful.
though some interpretations of alignment have held that the spectrum isn't law-neutral-chaos on a line, but on a triangle, in which case killing them instead of arresting them would shift you towards Neutral

>>51774937
Making undead isn't evil anymore. It's just dangerous. And that danger is to other people. To constantly risk that danger, you'd have to be evil, or something. But making undead isn't evil.

Riddle me this necromancer apologists. If necromancy isn't inherently evil, is cannibalism or necrophilia evil? What about cutting off a cadaver's head and playing soccer with it?

>>51775667
Law doesn't favor the death penalty nor does it favor reformation. No alignment seems to care that much, just depends on the aims of the individual.

See Evil, for an unusual example. Whether an Evil character corrupts others around him into depravity or simply slaughters them for the joy of it, both of those are equally Evil acts.

>>51775711
No, it's not. Your cuck morality and taste does not define good and evil.

>>51775439
>What's so inherently evil about channeling negative energy? This turns evil and good into a very simplistic 'ying and yang' or 'darkness and light' type thing
Refer to >>51774937
Channeling negative energy isn't Evil.
Channeling negative energy to create undead IS Evil.
Why? Is it some moral judgment? Some affront ot nature? Did the Gods decide this?

None of these. The universe decided at the moment of creation and that's fucking that. There is a cosmic arbiter, Ao or above, that decreed "making undead with negative energy is Evil" and so it was. There needn't be any grand design, nor does some inconsistency or hypocrisy on the part of this entity change the fact that it wrote down the rules in the space-book and that's what all the planes and alignments follow.

>>51775711
Those are just unhealthy.

>>51775558
>Your intention was the same (stop a bad guy, save children), but the act was very much different. Evil. Don't do that.

Arguable. If you have verifiable foreknowledge that a person will commit evil, then preventing that is good or at least neutral even if you kill him in the process.

>>51775663

the bigger ones are as smart as humans, but look at it this way.

When humans take care of animals, there is give and take. Elementals gain absolutely no benefit from being enslaved from their comfortable elemental realms, and forced into a narrow space and forced to absolutely obey every command given to them.

>>51772756

>Tuesday's UA

it's on Tuesday now?

>>51775711
Not really, just distasteful perhaps.

Unless we're running off egyptian-like death rules regarding the sanctity of the body, but the assumption throughout the thread seems to be otherwise.

>>51775571
>proficiencies, equipment
Unfortunately they've gotten this right. I remember a previous dragon rider class somewhere that did stupid shit like 'as your starting equipment, you get a pike with finesse'.
>Spellcasting
They actually did the spellcasting feature right. Fuck.
>Innate spellcasting
Okay, this is probably a minor infringement that could barely qualify for 1., I'm pretty sure innate spellcasting is a different feature monsters usually have, so you shouldn't title a tooltip inside spellcasting 'innate spellcasting'.
However, also, I just realized - they should have listed spellcasting as a level 3 feature. As it stands, multiclassing with it could cause you to lose spellcasting levels considering you get 0 levels of spellcasting on the first two levels, because you get the spellcasting feature.. .. As some sort of.. ? .. The format is just all wrong.

Yeah, okay, I'll admit this isn't half bad, but still, I'll skim read a bit

>dragon types
>lightning types stun, 'for one round' even though it says until the end of next turn
>acid types.. Wow! -1 AC to the enemy! That's sure to be much better than STUNNING them.
>Extra attack
Is worded really poorly, and they treat extra attack (2) like part of extra attack, when normally it's a unique fighter feature.
Also holy fuck dragons get extra damage AND extra attacks alongside you and there's way too much text

Okay, in truth, this class is 'BTFOing fighter': The Class

OP as heck.