/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>51686536
Turn him into an ashtray.......wait

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The NPCs in the M20 quickstart are beyond cringy.

>>51686568
so the normal mage player?

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>>51686568

>>51686587
ba-dum-tsh

>>51686624

WE

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>>51686624

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>>51686568
>5'2"
>an amazon

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>>51686644

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>>51686663
And the only male NPC of the book.

>>51686649
Thanks for the pic of this small lizard

>>51686624
>can sue successfully for emancipation
>but can't do the job she got because of her talent
>or do the math to keep a bank balance
>or pay fucking bills

If you wanted her to be homeless so badly all you had to was have her run away, Brucato.

Is the Technocratic Union right?

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DEATH TO THE GLASS WANKER VEGANS!

PURGE THE WEAKNESS FROM THE GAIAN RACE, MY COUSINS!

>>51686768
Well, I'd definitely argue that the Order of Reason was right when you consider how vamps and garou fucked over humanity.

>>51686823

>garou
>fucked over humanity
>the one species that has undeniably raped everything by spreading the Weaver's stranglehold and the Wyrm's corruption where ever they go

>>51686823

Didn't the vampires basically ensure humanity's congregation into cities and its rise of civilizations, technology and so on?

>>51686833
Technically speaking, humanity is the fault of the mokole and the Weaver is just mad because humans were her favorite pets but the garou were big meanies to them.

>>51686853
"Canon" is contradictory but they are at least one cause.

Is Onyx actually planning to stop doing open dev and is /tg/ to blame for it?

>>51686536
>How would you improve Samuel Haight without outright removing him?

Make him less of a metaplot meme and more of a background thing. In a WtA game I'd have the PCs hear scattered rumors of skinned garou, usually loners and ronin.

By the way, are there official rules for Skin Dancer characters?

>>51686768
If by right you mean do they provide Mankind with its best shot at survival, and the highest general standard of life?

Then yes.

If by that do you mean do they rampantly ignore civil liberties and various other principles which most would consider sacrosanct? And is such a thing worthwhile in the grand scheme of the world? Well, don't you enjoy the way the world is right now? I mean, more than mucking around in shit as a glorified blood-bag for some asshole parasite? Or as sport for some horrible fucking half-spirit jackass who hates you for wanting an enjoyable life?
Omelettes and Eggs.
Omelettes and Eggs.

Anywhere on the net I can find a decent campaign for NWoD? My group doesn't wanna run it.

>>51687334

gamefinder thread
roll20

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I am currently reading through Vampire the Requiem for dummies and soon I will reading the general WOD rulebook. What else should I read before looking into joining a game? I understand some parts of the lore, but a chunk of it I don't know much about.

The Followers of Set seem pretty cool

>>51686644
>>51686624
>>51686568

This is what I'm talking about when I'm complaining about SJW-infestation in modern WoD, jesus.

>>51686568
>>51686624
>>51686644

What the fuck is this shit.

>>51685439

I'm imagining you've read the 1e core, Chronicles of Darkness, and Mortal Remains. Given that those are nessecary to run a 2e game of Hunter.

If you want them to fight magic users, use Witch Finders, the rules in it allows for challenging and diverse magic users that the Hunters can conceivably kill with the right plan and cunning.

Both Night Stalkers and Spirit Slayers are good, if nothing else check them out on the Mega drive for the tactics alone. They're naturally a must if you're gonna have them fight Vampires and Werewolves/Spirits respectively, especially if you don't have the core for those game lines yourself. The one for Beast really isn't nessecary, though it's nice if you want to do dream based stuff.

Especially if your group wants lots of tactics, have them browse all the splats, Night Stalkers and Witch Finders both have some of my favorite tactics.

Any other questions, fellow Hunterbro?

>>51687608

My father's thrusting cock.

>>51687420
V20 and Lore of the Clans are pretty good if you're interested in VtM. VtR 2e is generally better than 1e if you're into Requiem. People seem to like the VtR clan books, but I read Ventrue and Mekhet and wasn't very impressed

>mage supremacy

Is there an invite for the Discord?

>>51688217
This one is for CofD
https://discord.gg/hQbCv

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>>51686663
Fuck this gay earth. Trannies need to register on a government data base reeeeeeee

What's this mage second edition stuff, how cucked am I by not knowing it?

>>51688899
Don't you fucking dare try and lump M20 in with Awakening.

>>51688940
Did they make a 2nd edition of Awakening? What was M2O?

>>51688964
>Did they make a 2nd edition of Awakening?
Nigga, where have you BEEN?

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>on a quest to rip the artwork from every single one of VtM books
>decide to start with Vampire: The Dark Ages 20th Anniversary
>8 times out of 10 the artwork in the book is of female characters

This is... weird. Like, you can't help but notice.

>>51687558
Phil Brucato isn't 'modern Wod', he's been there all along.

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>>51689006

Nigga I live in the hills as a modern day Thyrsus
I got magic irl but I won't go into big cities to catch up on the latest hullabaloo. I can talk to spirits of the prairie but all they care about is being blown around by ephemeral winds.

What did they change in second edition mage? Did they retcon all that tower stuff yet? Aren't yani or whatever they are called just a sanskrit word for prostate massage?

>>51688964
>Did they make a 2nd edition of Awakening?
Yes. It came out nearly a year ago.

>What was M20?
A horrible crusty cumrag monogrammed "P.B.".

It's been copied and sold under the pretense of being a 20th anniversary edition of Ascension.

>>51688252
I was hoping it would be WoD but thanks.

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>>51689049
Thank you

So m20 is drastically different from the original? What did they try to fix?

>>51689074
Well, here's the oWoD one:
https://discord.gg/WQGd8

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What are the bare minimum requirements for turning somebody's offal into a sea cucumber?

>>51689112
>So m20 is drastically different from the original?
No, just worse.

Welp, now I'm sure the Daeva is trying to blond bond my Gangrel, both ways. It was pretty much confirmed by the end of the last night's game session and I have no fucking clue what I'm going to do, since we're both part of a group that has to stick together out of necessity, rather than choice. The GM seemed to hint that there was a way to avert the Daeva's attention, but again, I have no idea how.

>>51689042
>What did they change in second edition mage?
A lot of quality-of-life improvements. Practices now actually reflect the level of the spell, Paradox is more dangerous (though often not for the mages themselves), spellcasting is more standardised.

>Did they retcon all that tower stuff yet?
You mean the Watchtowers? Nope, they're still there, there's still five of them (of course, Chronicler's Guide gave already options for other/more/no Watchtowers).

>Aren't yani or whatever they are called just a sanskrit word for prostate massage?
Don't know Sanskrit, but Wikipedia says that a yantra is "a mystical diagram", and the word seems to come from "yam", meaning "to sustain" or "to support", also in a structural sense.

>>51689789
Blood bind the Daeva before the Daeva blood bounds you.

>>51689875

I'd rather look for ways to just move away from the Daeva, away from the whole city where we're currently at in-game. Having the Daeva tag along is not my idea of fun. The character is heavily entrenched in said city and them going with my Gangrel out of the blue would pull a lot of eyes on us. I just want to be done with this particular effort and leave.

>>51689798
>Paradox is more dangerous
It has more ability to spiral out of control, but that's when you're an idiot.
On the whole it's weaker.

>>51689798
>(of course, Chronicler's Guide gave already options for other/more/no Watchtowers).
What are these options? Every time I posted my One Watchtower idea I was told that this was already done in the Chroniclers Guide. Is that true?

>>51689789
>I have no fucking clue what I'm going to do
Don't drink her blood.

>>51688252
>>51689124

Both of those come up as "Expired/Invalid".

>>51690220
I don't think I've ever read your idea, so I can't be sure, and I don't think there was something about only one Watchtower, but it may be functionally identical to the option that every mage just picks their superior and inferior Arcana.

Basically, the options are:
More Watchtowers: There's more Watchtowers! Maybe another set of five, maybe enough so every possible combination is represented. Have fun homebrewing all the different Paths.

Other Watchtowers: See more Watchtowers, but keep your homebrew ones.

No Watchtowers: Mages awaken to a personalized supernal truth. Pick superior (an inferior, or not) Arcana.

>>51690495
My idea was no Watchtowers, but not the personalized supernal truth thing. Sounds too much like Paradigms for me.

Basically I proposed that there's one Supernal Realm, with each of the Arcana having their own territory (Land) within it. The Watchtower is in the center where they all meet.

What this means for a Mage is that when they first Awaken they have all Arcana as common, and they can pick whichever ones they want to study without coming up with not!Paradigms or their own Realm and Paths or whatever. Mana can be adjusted to be more common because common spells still cost, but Rotes/Praxis/Attainments are still free.

Once you become well studied in your chosen Arcana you can pick a Legacy to join, and you would gain its Arcana as Ruling. For example, if you studied Forces or Mind you could join Tamers of Fire, and gain both of those as Ruling after your initiation.

No inferior Arcana.

>>51688217

Message me for it

Malfeas#0987

>>51686915
More likely they've decided open dev is terrible, it's not like /tg/ isn't the only place that isn't a 'ZOMG SO GOOD GAIS KEEP IT UP' echo chamber. There's legitimate criticisms that come out of many of the places that discuss their things, but their 'official forums' are the primary place where it SHOULD happen, but gets shouted down.

>>51687420
>Requiem
>Followers of Set

You're mixing things, probably unintentionally. Followers of Set are a clan in Vampire the Masquerade, which has nothing to do with Requiem.

If you're going to be playing in a Masquerade game, all you'll need is either the V20 or Revised VtM core book. If you're playing Requiem, if it's 1e you'll need the WoD core (this is all the core rules) and the Requiem core (which contains the vampire rules, Requiem for dummies is just an annotated version of the core, not really uses as most other 'for dummies' books).

All other books are as optional, or required, as your ST has set up for their game.

>>51689031
Gamers need fap material I suppose?

>>51690690
I cut off my reply. If you're playing Requiem 2e all you need is the Requiem 2e core.

>>51690602
I'm not sure why you don't like the paths, but that sounds sounds workable. You might want to allow players to have pseudo-Ruling (for purposes of Mana consumption) Arcana from the beginning, because if you start to mess with the Mana economy, you'll have to adjust a whole lot.

Trying to come up with a basic intro game for nWoD Mage, ideas I've got so far are:

>Set in local cathedral city that the group all knows
>Group is out in the town like normal, go exploring around the cathedral
>Awaken either on a whim or through some connection to the MacGuffin
>At this point they might bump into NPC for basic info and intro to the mystery
>Because it's late night not too many people are about and they end up using their new powers/skills to get into the cathedral
>Cathedral interior is basically the dungeon for the thing
>Thing is either the not-Death Note (Fate/Death Grimoire) or the artifact from the Abedju Cipher

And as this point I'm stuck as to what the thing should be, and what the antagonist is. I'm thinking of riffing off the Abedju Cipher, the only difference being that the intro's replaced with the above.

But at the same time I'm also trying to avoid mage politics too much for the start, and try to make it something they'd be more invested in, hence me thinking of the 'not-Death Note' being in there as a reference they'd all get.

>>51690728
I think the Paths are fine. I just came up with that on the fly because one anon kept posting about how awful and themeless and restrictive they are and kept claiming that coming up with more awful and themeless Paths was the way to true player freedom.

So I just made up some way to play with no Paths. Problem solved.

As for mana costs, I was thinking of maybe just upscaling a bit, Let players hold and spend more, let Hallows produce more, etc. But I also toyed with the idea of letting Path tools be replaced by Arcana tools. For example you could have a Forces Arcana tool in the form of a golden dagger that functions as a wand, and all Forces spells cast with it cost no Mana. You would have to attune it to your aura and all that still, and attuning a second one of a different Arcanum would take even longer. What's more, any Paradox rolls made as a result of the spells cast with a tool have a chance to degrade it a bit, or give it an Abyssal taint for a while. If players choose to absorb the Paradox, the tool takes the brunt. They can break on a critical failure, but only if they've been degraded a bit first.

My logic behind this is that I don't want the Arcana tools to just replace Ruling Arcana. I want them to be a big incentive to join Legacies. In fact Legacies in general have more emphasis in this play style, for obvious reasons. They take the place of Paths, basically.

>>51686536
The Technocracy try to clone him to use him as an agent, but guess what? He can't be fucking bought off, or reasoned with. He destroys an entire Horizon Construct and makes off with billions of dollars worth of Hypertech, returning to Earth pissed off and ready to rock. In his absence the Skin Dancers have swelled in numbers from hunting Ronin Garou and Black Spirals, and they're ready to take whole Caerns. Haight plays his way through Diablerie Mexico and gets a few jugs of sweet, sweet vitae, then he infiltrates the Society of Leopold and takes over fucking Venezuela, I mean the whole fucking country, ready to experiment with the skins of other Fera.

Are you a bad enough dude to take him on?

Are you such a bad dude that Trump quivers in fear at the thought of you bluffing your way through immigration?

>Business or pleasure?
>Pleasure.
>Are you a terrorist?
>......no.
>Seems legit. Welcome to 'Murrica, here, have a gun and a pound of high fructose corn syrup.

>>51686568
>>51686624
>>51686644
>>51686663
>>51686705

I don't see what makes them cringy, nor do I jump at the idea of "SJW's hiding under every bed" the way you other poor, paranoid faggots tend to. Time to put down the Fox News broadcasts, boys.

What I would say is this - these NPC's are all excessively damaged and traumatised, and their heritages are hopelessly muddied, to the point where it would be almost impossible to characterise one enough to be playable. How am I supposed to understand how to play someone who comes from four different ethnic backgrounds, on top of having a mental illness, a learning disability and social problems?

Sabra is almost playable - almost - except that his refusal to communicate would turn every game into a fucking pantomime. Khan sounds like a fucking timebomb. Synder would, played correctly, be too difficult and obnoxious to spend any time with at all. Chopper's life derailing at 17 makes absolutely no sense, given how smart, erudite, and good at her work she's supposed to be - couldn't she just get another job in IT filed away in a basement somewhere where she wouldn't need co-workers? Didn't it literally say she had multiple job offers?

Also, how can they be homeless if they have a place for all this technology, books, magazines, dog kennels, fire-twirling gear, etc.? It's kind of hard to find electrical outlets in back alleys, let alone safe storage.

TL:DR - Brucatto is a fucking hack, and you're a dumbass if you paid money for this shit

>>51690664
If we're not doing Open Dev any more, no one's bothered to tell me.

>>51687023
20th Anniversary Edition had some pretty lame shit about them. They went from a group of hardcore, wyrm-tainted hunters to hippies taking in Ronin and, like, calming their Rage, man.

>>51691518
We aren't doing Open Dev anymore Dave, sorry you didn't get the memo.

-Onyx Path

>>51687071
>gentle reminder that the original coiner of the "gotta break a few eggs" quote was Joseph Stalin

>>51691483
>nor do I jump at the idea of "SJW's hiding under every bed" the way you other poor, paranoid faggots tend to
But is it really paranoia if Brucato is actually hiding under this particular bed?

>>51689038
that doesn't excuse his recent SJW-wank

>>51691483
it's coupled with the general trend of the M20 book, the general unusefulness of the NPCs who seem to act more as an insert for several mental illnesses and other (SJW) issues than actual characters, as well as the general dislike that Brucato gets since the botched M20

>>51689112
>What did they try to fix?
Brucatto was concerned people might cast real world Magick with the game, so they totalled Paradigm and blended it with Foci so badly that the individual factions cease to have any meaning.

You can now have a Virtual Adept who casts spells by, no joke, smoking weed and doing yoga.

They suggest name-changes for a few Traditions on the baseless idea that the old names were "racist", then go back to the old names in the chargen chapter.

Most of the rules are copy-pasted from older books with no context, no further explanation and no expansion. Some rules are broken - a direct hit from a tank will kill everyone in a hot air balloon but leave the balloon intact, for example - other rules are missing (there is nothing on damage in the Digital Web, nothing at all) - and finally, some rules blatantly insult the reader's intelligence (aura colours, under Nephandi, says "wouldn't you like to know? ;)" .... well, yes, PHILLIP, some people paid nearly $400 to back this fucking turkey, we'd like you to actually do your goddamn job for once).

There's page upon page of wordy rants against the sins of modernity, industrialization, western culture, why you're worse than Hitler if you eat pizza with your gaming group.... and a sidebar telling the reader there was "not enough room" for rules on Sorcery.

The section on Magick is so broken that it necessitated a second book, "How do you DO that?" to explain how Magick works in a fucking game about Mages. As of that second book, we still don't know how it's supposed to work, and we're currently waiting on a third one.

The layout sucks total balls, with useless sidebars and text boxes that could have been easily included in the body of the text. Some of them are in the wrong section. Twenty entire pages are taken up by full-page artwork. I haven't bothered to try counting the half-page artwork that often seems abstract and completely inappropriate.

Did I miss anything, guys?

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Walk in her Sanctum

>>51691682
If I can just walk in then she's a pretty shit Mage desu

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My Moros who is a loving wife and mother.

>>51690833
I think in that scenario, dividing up the Supernal Realm(s) into ten Arcana-based regions is a bit too reductive, but whatever, it works.

That's actually what I meant about fiddly Mana economy stuff; the game is more or less balanced around having to Ruling Arcana, and theoretically at least, the Mana you get from Pattern Scouring, Hallows and so on reflects that. It just seems a bit unelegant to go "yeah, a five-dot Hallow gives seven Mana".
I do, however, like your ideas about magical tools, and joining Legacies should always be encouraged.

>>51691682
I wish.

>>51691742
>look at the art
>internally classify the style as "mixture of InCase and ShindoL"
I mean, I'm not technically wrong, but it still sets some alarm bells.

>>51691739
>I'll have "what is sexual innuendo?" for $200, thanks Trebek

>>51691636
>an insert for several mental illnesses and other (SJW) issues
>anyone not white, straight and stable is an SJW

Yes, yes, and everyone who disagrees with you and your limited worldview is literally Rosie O'Donnell. You need to be 18+ to post here. Go back to Breitbart Jr. or whatever.

>>51686536
How can you possibly improve on the Ultimate Badass?

>>51691518
It's something that Matt posted, so maybe that's just him.

>>51691966
What could possibly move Matt to quit Open Dev? Mhhh

>>51691957
Have him rescue the newly elected POTUS from ninjas from Street Fighter crossover.

>>51691762
It's just a rough idea, really. I haven't devoted much thought to it beyond what it would take to win that internet argument, so there are bound to be flaws. The one thing I'm dedicated to is putting more emphasis on Legacies, both in play styles and Mage society. I feel like doing away with Path-based Ruling Arcana opens that up a bit, since you can mix-and-match the ones you want to invest in without being tied to this Ruling Arcanum you don't even use all that much. Like going for Spirit and Death and making a Medium style Legacy without having to neglect Life or Matter or feeling like you should at least invest a little bit in one for the free spells, even though you don't particularly like them.

As for the Mana upscale, it was just a half baked idea to make the pre-Legacy play less grueling in terms of expense. I actually like the Arcana tools more too, although they would need rules to stop someone from trying to be the Mandarin with a ring for each Arcanum on all his fingers.

>>51691483
>>51691957
t. triggered libcuck hedge wizard

>>51691957
This stuff doesn't need to be shoved into a game though. Addressing these issues should be a per-group decision on whether or not the group feels this needs addressed in their games. That's the problem that I have with it (not that guy). It's pointless because 1) people who care about this are probably already dealing with it in some way and 2) people who don't care are just going to flip past it or ignore it.

Are these acceptable Yantras for Moros?

Bone Knife
Calcified Coral
Mortar and Pestle

Are there 2e rules for creating a legacy?

>>51691957
>tries to deny that those characters are aggressively "progressive"
>thinks Sam Haight is cool
I'm starting to get a clearer picture.

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>>51686536
Has any of you guys ever run a story containing playing characters from different sides of the WoD?

How did it go?

Is there anything in particular that I should know before attempting something like this?

>>51687420
Clan books for VtR kinda suck. Get the covenant books though, as a VtR Forever GM I can say they are a treasure trove of knowledge.

If you have questions im right here

>>51692213
>Clan books for VtR kinda suck
I don't know, I kinda liked the Daeva one. The story about that guy throwing his entire life in the shitter for an average Daeva was really neat.

>>51687789
Not that guy but i recently came into quite a few wod books one of which is hunter which i am interested in running. Any tips for a comeplete noob or suggested reading. I have no experience with this system and im having a little trouble.

>>51692199
>Is there anything in particular that I should know before attempting something like this?
Pretty much all the splats hate each other.

>>51692199
Yes. Summer Court Fairest Draconic and his best friend, a Frankenstein, against life-sucking reaper things. We both got the ability for lifesucking ourselves, and in the end, were forced to duke it out. High-octane action, so not typical WoD, but that's what our ST does.

Mind that the different themes are probably totally incompatible.

>>51692199
>>51692271
This. Additionally, the cosmology gets really messy when you mix splats and the different types of supernaturals have different agendas.

>>51692264
Vigil or Reckoning?

The only splat mixing I do is when the other splats are NPCs

>>51692362
How it should be, really.

>>51692199
They're hard to run, but pretty fun to play in. I'm in a mage/demon game right now.

I want to know what happened to that Cotorie and the teen Obrimos Mage

>>51692434
Guy said he would report back after the next session.

What kind of spell would you need so that a certain force like fire, will be drawn towards a target?

>>51692515
Fate and Forces, I would say.

>>51692261
Oh that was really cool, no doubt. My thing was that it felt like there wasn't a whole lot about them.

I may be a little harsh because for clans they're more general sub groups with certain quirks whereas the covenants are profoundly important

>>51692271
>>51692319
>>51692332
>>51692430
Thanks for your responses people.

My group has been wanting to run a multi genre story for a while now. We have done vampire and werewolf combined before, but I was the werewolf and I am bit of a powergamer and totally abused might of Thor.

Anyway, I feel like mage is a little more incompatible with the vampire and werewolf than these to between them, hence why I asked for advice. I also have no experience with changeling, demon, or prometheus so I can't really say if it will blend well together.

Generally we don't mind house ruling stuff if people are not actively try to break the system (i.e. me, I will resist the temptation this time)

>>51692553
That was most likely intentional. Werewolf and Mage also put more emphasis on what group you belong to over what subset of that splat you are.

>>51692152
Yes, in the Awakening 2e corebook I thought?

>>51678593
Posting the rest of the fallen tribe scenarios:

>Black Furies - A strange Wyldish disease known as the Metamorphic Plague infects a large amount of the Furies, and in desperation they turn to ancient Balance Wyrm spirits to cleanse themselves of the Plague. While they don't immediately fall, over time they become corrupted by the insane darkness of the Wyrm. Caught between the Wyld and the Wyrm, they decide their purpose is to attack the Weaver, by destroying the structure of civilization, regardless of the millions of human lives lost in the process. They take on the new name Widows and their totem Pegasus falls to the Wyrm.

>>51693020
wasn't there also an alternative scenario where the Furies go to genocide all men because of rape camps and similar shit?

>>51693081
What are rape camps and how do I enroll?

>>51693150
go to africa, where rivaling tribes enslave another tribe, kill all males, systematically rape the females and raise their kids as their own
also happened in the Balkans after the collapse of Yugoslavia.

>>51693020
>Fianna - Former Ard Righ Brendan O'Rourke returns from an Umbral quest into Malfeas where he had been turned to the Wyrm. He brings back massive reinforcements for an assault on the British Isles. He strikes at several Fianna holdings and even convinces many of the other Garou tribes that the non-fallen Fianna are the ones who are of the Wyrm. They do not realize the deception until it is too late, by this point Garou have been fighting Garou until only a few thousand still survive. The Fianna become the Black Stags, but Stag their totem does not fall, nor does he cut off his fallen children. Some Black Stags follow Whipporwill and some follow other Wyrmish Incarnae spirits.

>Get of Fenris - After discovering a series of underground cave networks that lead to the Black Spiral Hive, the Get mount a massive assault on their enemy. But as the Get travel further into the tunnels, they go deeper and deeper into the earth as the Spirals pick off the Get less likely to fall. The Get in the tunnels begin to experience a variety of visions that slowly drive them mad, and they fall to the Wyrm. On the first full moon of the month, they lead an all out assault on the Garou of Europe, destroying or desecrating Caerns and eventually slaughter the Shadow Lords. The Get are renamed The Pure, and their totem, Great Fenris, is chained up in Malfeas, never falling.

>>51693081
I haven't actually read the book so I can't say.

>>51693255
>Glass Walkers - The Walkers tribal totem, Cockroach, strikes a deal with the Corporate Spirit Incarna of Pentex, essentially offering the tribe and totem positions of safety during and after the Apocalypse. The Glass Walkers, now calling themselves the Raiders, maintain their connection with the Gaian tribes, hiding their taint with wolf-skins until they are discovered to have kidnapped the Perfect Metis, which eventually leads to the Final Battle. The Pentex Incarna is consumed by an avatar of the Wyrm, and becomes a Celestine and controls all the employees of Pentex as a massive powerful hive mind.

>Red Talons - A disease similar to Mad Cow infects the Red Talons due to the consumption of Human flesh. While the disease has little harm on the Garou, it is devastating to their wolf Kin. Within a short span of time the infection spreads killing more than 90% of wolves in the world, making wolves all but extinct with no chance of ever recovering. The Talons blame the humans for this and decide to kill them all, by communicating with ancient spirits deep in the earth to release methane gasses trapped deep in the earth into the atmosphere, dooming billions of humans. The Talons new name is the Predators. Griffin, mad with Rage, remains their totem.

>>51693277
>Uktena - Urge Wyrm Spirits hold a "contest" to see who can make a Garou tribe fall. Lady Aife, the Urge Wyrm of Cruelty focuses her efforts on the Uktena, effecting their Banetenders' dreams, and assaulting the Uktena homeland in the Umbra with Banes, Black Spirals attack Wendigo and Uktena camps pretending to be members of the other. With these and other attacks, the Uktena start turning to the Wyrm out of desperation, killing off non-fallen tribemates or crafting Wyrmish fetishes to corrupt them. Finally, the Uktena become the Snakes and begin attacking the other Garou, starting in North America where they're stronger. Great Uktena, their totem, is captured by the Wyrm until it goes mad and falls.

>>51693277
>be a Red Talon
>talk about how disgusting and poisonous humans are nonstop
>eat humans nonetheless, eventually contract a disease
>wolves I bang get sick and die out
>damn humans

>>51692118
>Are these acceptable Yantras for Moros?
>Bone Knife
>Calcified Coral
>Mortar and Pestle

Bone Knife - Definitely. Correct weapon and material.

Calcified Coral - Depends. First, your ST would have to approve of coral as bone or an equivalent substance appropriate for a Moros (p, 121). More importantly, it would need to be an appropriate object, i.e., an Order or Path tool. Unless a lump of coral would be acceptable as an additional Yantra under a chosen Shadow Name or Techne merit or Legacy, a lump of coral is not a Tool Yantra.

Mortar and Pestle - Again, if an appropriate Moros material (lead, bone, etc.), a ST may allow it as a "cup" Path tool (it's not any Order tool), although I would not as cups are supposed to be drinking vessels, and mortar and pestles are not.

>>51693350

GLASSFAGS GET OUT AAAWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>51686568
LITERALLY ME

>>51693491
Isnt mortar and pestle a crushing instrument that fits Moros theme of alchemy and destruction of matter using a crushing implement?

>>51692058
>Arcane tools
>Mana
Have you checked out the alterative costs for imbued items in 1ed? I think its like in tome of mysteries or tome of watchtowers

Let's create a Mage legacy /tg/

Roll a 1d5. Most rolls wins.

1.Moros
2.Obrimos
3.Mastigos
4.Thyrsus
5.Acanthus

Rolled 1 (1d5)

>>51693744
Why not.

>>51693744
Rolled 2 (1d5)

>>51693623
Sure, problem is that there's more to Path Yantras than just "fits the theme".

>>51686536
>How would you improve Samuel Haight without outright removing him?
I'd some how roll in the other templates he was lacking for true ULTIMATE cross over. Some Changelings, some Mummy, and maybe some Demon.
Have him diablerize Caine. Maybe just a general end time supplement with Sam Haight trashing every major NPC in every book.

>>51693623
>Isnt mortar and pestle a crushing instrument that fits Moros theme of alchemy and destruction of matter using a crushing implement?

Crushing *weapons* of the appropriate material can be used as a Path Weapon Tool Yantras by a Moros. Crushing *implements* are not all Moros Path Tool Yantras.

Useable Yantras must fall within a delineated category of Yantras as described in the book. Yantras are far more limited than just "fits the theme of [Path]."

If a character wants to expand their Yantra repertoire, they need to purchase applicable merits like Shadow Name and Teche or join a Legacy.

>>51694135
I know realize the promise of the OpenDev regarding Yantras as a tool to personalize you magic style is a lie. The options in the book are far too limiting to build any kind of casting style. I assumed you didn't have to take extra merits/legacies to have a personal casting style. I feel cheated.

>>51691518
>If we're not doing Open Dev any more, no one's bothered to tell me.

Well, if that's the case, we definitely need more spoilers for Signs of Sorcery and the Mage sections of the Dark Eras Companion.

Also, has work actually begun on Tome of the Pentacle?

>>51694315

"Personal casting style" is not the same as "get spellcasting bonuses for doing whatever you want." Awakening, as promised, is definitely sufficiently open-ended that a character can have any "style" they want, unlike the limited Paradigms of Ascension.

Merits and Legacies are the appropriate avenues to expand Yantras to develop personal styles that actually provide magical advantages. It's one of the reasons why the setting expects characters to join or form a Legacy early in their magical careers.

>>51694448
>unlike the limited Paradigms of Ascension.
nigger wut? its like you dont even know anything about the game.

>>51694717

I've been playing WW games since Masquerade 1e when I was in college, and many here were in diapers.

Paradigm was limiting in that all spells had to conform to the character's supposed worldview due to the concept of consensual reality. This was mechanically enforced through the use of foci (and butchered terribly by Brucato in M20). Since Paradigm was mandatory in Ascension (although routinely ignored by powergamers), following it offered no mechanical benefits.

In Awakening, a mage can use whatever style he or she wants for their magic, and change such style as often as they want without penalty. Even Paths do not mandate style of magic. With no consensual reality and strong gnostic underpinnings, mages are mostly free to do as they please. Certain universal objects, environments and actions do provide bonuses to all mages in the form of Yantras, and with select merits and legacies, the class of these Yantras can be expanded to allow certain styles to provide spellcasting and other bonuses.

>>51692348
Vigil

What would be a good secondary Arcanum for a contract-based Fate Legacy?

>>51695239
Spirit or Space.

>>51691674
>and finally, some rules blatantly insult the reader's intelligence (aura colours, under Nephandi, says "wouldn't you like to know? ;)" .... well, yes, PHILLIP, some people paid nearly $400 to back this fucking turkey,

I am pretty sure this implied that going Nephandi doesn't change your aura otherwise from what you once were, and it was a more wistful "Wouldn't it be cool if one could detect them on Sight".

>>51695239
Mind

>>51695476
> it was a more wistful "Wouldn't it be cool if one could detect them on Sight".
It would be nice if this was stated anywhere in the book then.

>>51695503
I admit it was shittily worded, I was just saying it's not that offensive imo. Just stupid.

>>51695239
>What would be a good secondary Arcanum for a contract-based Fate Legacy?

Death for endings and transition, or Space for threads and sympathy.

>>51695239
Which Path is it tied to? That's the important question, because I can see it going many different ways.

>>51694051
and then defeating him with a smartphone and yelling "YOU ARE BEING RECORDED"

>>51695499
lol(?)

>>51695787
>magefags

>>51693727
It's in Tome of the Mysteries, yeah. I've seen them. Curses, life spans, spell bundles, all that. Interesting stuff.

>>51695787

Hold on..., are you suggesting gays aren't magical?

A Moros Legacy that treats Endings of things as time metaphoricaly stopping for the particular subject. By studying a subject's timeline until its end they attempt to break this "stasis" by finding a way to make time start moving again for the subject and begin transistion into something. Often they merely just restore damaged or destroyed things, sometimes make something's death/destruction become catalyst for change, on the rare occation, bringing something back from the dead in case their time stops prematurely.

Ruling Arcana: Time

What would be a good Shadow name for Mage who has this Legacy?

>>51695849
A Mage's Shadow Name isn't entirely determined by their Legacy.

>>51691483
Playability aside, these look just like the sort of social cases you would find in some West Coast or European squat so I don't think these are implausible at all. I used to live and party with literally these guys, and yeah, they had dogs, books, computers, juggling and fire-twirling props, seriously.

But yeah, as far as example characters that you can use for inspiration I put them on the same level as that insane Baali who only existed to slice her belly open and bring forth a buzzing hellswarm of blow-flies and carrion beetles.

>>51692199
not explicitly in the same game but i do "crossover" events where the first group encounter e.g. a spirit and their actions influence the other game when the next set of players encounter it
(Only done it with Geist/WtF at the moment)

Since Death's perview is Enervation, can you cast a spell that makes them exhausted till they drop? Whay practice would this be? You aren't directly harming them.

>>51696136
You most certainly are directly harming them, that's the Practice of Fraying (3 dots), utilising an effect under the Arcanum's purview to deal Bashing Damage to the target.

>>51696136
Yes, but Death has a spell called Enervation that causes the target's muscles and ligaments to break down. Unraveling.

I would say the spell you're talking about would be a lesser version of that, and since causing extreme exhaustion to the point of passing out IS harmful, I would say Fraying. Ruling, if you're really set on it not being Fraying.

>>51696178
I just want them to become exhausted not deal damage. That's completely different

>>51691483
>TL:DR - Brucatto is a fucking hack, and you're a dumbass if you paid money for this shit

>TFW you're a $375 dollar dumb ass

>>51696270
Bashing damage can be representative of exhaustion.
You could also try and represent that through a Condition, that would just be Death 2.

>>51696270
Then you can have it be that way. Your call. Ruling.

If it were my game I would place it as Fraying and have some accompanying bashing damage to reflect that rapidly divesting someone of their energy to the point of exhaustion should be harmful, but that's me. You do you.

>>51696318
>Death 2 spell that exhausts someone till they pass out
That would be pretty broken if you ruled it as covert.

And before someone tells me so AGAIN, I know 2e got rid of the covert and vulgar labels, but since obvious magic still causes Paradox in fron of Sleepers I'm keeping the terms for simplicity's sake.

>>51696337
How I would rule it is not damage but Potency has to meet the healthboxes to trigger conciousness rolls

>>51691483
>What I would say is this - these NPC's are all excessively damaged and traumatised, and their heritages are hopelessly muddied, to the point where it would be almost impossible to characterise one enough to be playable. How am I supposed to understand how to play someone who comes from four different ethnic backgrounds, on top of having a mental illness, a learning disability and social problems?

The question you are ignoring is why this character are made the way they are? Why put 6 ethnic groups, on top of a mental illness and social problem?

Because that makes them better pcs? Not really, this are ready made characters designed for a newbie to learn the game.

>>51691561
>But is it really paranoia if Brucato is actually hiding under this particular bed?

Then you need to summon him with the goatboy ritual to see if he is really under your bed. First you need a homemade (or one bought from a small business) organic meal.

Then you need the jizz of a transsexual with 9 different ethnicity who worship an pagan religion. If you want a reduced difficulty on the spell casting, the transsexual needs to be called by her fursona name.

>>51691674
>>What did they try to fix?
>Brucatto was concerned people might cast real world Magick with the game, so they totalled Paradigm and blended it with Foci so badly that the individual factions cease to have any meaning.

What? This shit serious?

>>51696693
>four different ethnic backgrounds, on top of having a mental illness, a learning disability and social problems?

Sounds like the few people who were defending Beast at rpg.net during the Kickstarter, although they were also transexual.

>>51696693
>Then you need to summon him with the goatboy ritual to see if he is really under your bed. First you need a homemade (or one bought from a small business) organic meal.
>Then you need the jizz of a transsexual with 9 different ethnicity who worship an pagan religion. If you want a reduced difficulty on the spell casting, the transsexual needs to be called by her fursona name.

Alright. Anybody have any ideas on what I should do with him if the summoning works?

>>51696726
>might cast real world Magick
Yes. He thinks the Chick Tract about Black Leaf is true and he ruined m20 because of it.

>>51694956
>In Awakening, a mage can use whatever style he or she wants for their magic, and change such style as often as they want without penalty. Even Paths do not mandate style of magic. With no consensual reality and strong gnostic underpinnings, mages are mostly free to do as they please. Certain universal objects, environments and actions do provide bonuses to all mages in the form of Yantras, and with select merits and legacies, the class of these Yantras can be expanded to allow certain styles to provide spellcasting and other bonuses.

So what you saying ascension paradigm sucks because it forces you to have a style while Awakening is cool because it lets you be a bland fishmalk who cast whatever the hell is convenient at the time. Got it.

>>51696770
>nybody have any ideas on what I should do with him if the summoning works?

You should give him what he deserves for the abomination known as M20.

Dispose of the carcass carefully, and feel confident that any reasonable jury will know that you committed a public service.

>>51696770
>Alright. Anybody have any ideas on what I should do with him if the summoning works?

You need to stab him with a phallic symbol bought from a multinational chain.

>>51696854

While saying i dont believe in satyrs 3 times.

Is there any way for a supernatural to survive an Exceptional Success Unmaking Kill Ray of Death and Doom???

>>51696813
>Awakening is cool because it lets you be a bland fishmalk who cast whatever the hell is convenient at the time
Sounds like something a powergamer would do, not any decent roleplayer.

And didn't that guy just get done saying that paradigm is routinely ignored by powergamers?

>>51696898
Have a power which counters that, and succeed on the Clash of Wills.

>>51696850
>>51696854
>>51696884
Alright. I already have the organic meal.

Now I'm off to meet craigslist trannies until I find one that meets the criteria.

Wish me luck, anons.

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>>51696813

Ascension and Awakening operate under entirely different thematic and mythological underpinnings.

Paradigm wasn't the problem with Ascension, no less as a magical style. The problem was attempting to use consensual reality in a ttrpg, and not expect decades of arguments.

A playable game should never need a sidebar like this, particularly after a number of editions over more than two decades.

>>51696898
>>51696926
Do artifacts still let you break the normal rules and do whatever in 2e?

>>51696926
>counter whatnot
Anon said Exceptional Success, you fucking dumbass

>>51696898
>Is there any way for a supernatural to survive an Exceptional Success Unmaking Kill Ray of Death and Doom???

Not unless that supernatural is a mage, and he's damn proficient in Prime.

>>51696898
>>51696926

You can't counter an Unmaking spell when it bypasses all possible defenses. Exceptional Successes will do that.

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Iiiiiiiittttttttttsssssssssssssss GAROU TIME!

WHO IS READY TO BECOME EXTINCT?!

>>51694956
>hurrr paradigm is ignored by powergamers
>MtAw is better because mages dont have paradigms
seems legit.

>>51696972

Werefags get out

>>51696936
For all its faults, Awakening's magic is much neater. And you can actually make all the money you want with the right Matter spells.

>>51697010
But Awakening actually is better because it doesn't have Paradigms.

>>51696954
>>51696966

So, is there anything at all that could reliably 1v1 a Master then? Why is it impossible to defend against them?

If you're a mage who is a parent, can you raise your child in a way thay are better at recognizing mysteries so that they have better chance of Awakening?

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>>51697013

Sorry, no. We're here to stay. But have faith! All will return to the way it was suppose to be.

>>51697010

Awakening doesn't have paradigms because there is no need for it. In Awakening, mages and magic follow universal gnostic rules. If you want to specialize for "style," join a Legacy for added bonuses.

>>51696972
Is that a tiny werewolf penis?

>>51696944
Exceptional Success only blows past withstand you irredeemable cocksleeve. It can't prevent a Clash of Wills.

>>51696966
Read the rules Anon, the Exceptional Success option ignores Withstand, it does nothing to bypass another Supernatural's ability to use a power on the same frequency which could conceivably counter your Unmaking's influence, and thus demand a Clash of Wills to determine who triumphs.

The most obvious example is using Unmaking on a Spirit.
You first have to beat their Withstand (determined by Rank), and then beat them on a Clash of Wills as they use their Influences to attempt to maintain their existence. That's written into the spell itself.

>>51697045
having no actual setting basis for magic doesnt really make things better. it just is a drool factory for powergamers.

so clearly a plus for most magefags.

>>51697048
Because of the way spells are resisted in 2e. Withstand. It goes away when you get an exceptional on your casting roll.

>>51697061

Its common for artists to give them a gigantic shaggy wolf-bush down there but yeah, it could be some flaccid wolf cock instead.

>>51697062
>Implying that all Unmaking spells are clashed
>Implying Mages aren't the best at Clash of Wills

Son, you're a god-damned werefag, aren't you?

>>51697053
Yes. Mage families are real, and what's more I don't think the Lie actually keeps you from telling Sleepers about magic and its history, although it is against the Lex Magica to do so.

The Boston book has a Mage family in it, and a suggested plot hook for it is an arranged marriage to have a notable PC marry into the family, male or female. You'd get perks like a sweet five point Hallow and an extensive library, as well as access to artifacts, but the elders would meddle.

>>51697064
>Awakening
>having no actual setting

Huh? Have you read 1e or 2e Awakening or are just illiterate.

Awakening doesn't have a *metaplot*, and pc's therefore aren't constrained by the actions and dictates of unfathomable powers. However, there's certainly a *setting.*

>>51697070
>Withstand
The Master in question can just bypass it.

>>51697053
No. There's no way to brute force an awakening. There are ways of making them sleepwalkers and giving them access to sorcery or powers though.

>>51697106
Of course not Anon.

I was merely indicating there is a chance, not a certaintly or likelihood, but a chance for a Supernatural to survive a Master's Unmaking attempt through use of a potential (and likely rare and arcane) antithetical power of their own, and succeeding on what is quite likely a very difficult Clash of Wills.

>>51697117
Those are proximi, and last I knew you couldn't just decide to have a sleeper join up. You're either born into them or not.

>>51697058

Werefags are fucking disgusting.

>>51697131
>There's no way to brute force an awakening.
There is, but it usually fails.
You've just got to throw them straight into the face of Supernatural weirdness and hope the Watchtowers are feeling generous.
Plus even if it does work, you'll quite likely get a Banisher.
Or even worse, a Twisted Awakening.

>>51697064
>Awakening
>no setting basis for magic
I'm sorry, what do you think a "setting basis" is?

>>51697138

Just a reminder that archmages automatically succeed in any Clash of Wills.

#PrepareToBeLawnFurniture

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>>51697013
no

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>>51697159
Or you spontaneously turn into one. That can happen too. Pretty fucking rare though.

>>51697179
Did somebody say Lawn Furniture?

>>51697159
Mages can still teach their Sleeper kids about magic though.

Are the Realms Supernal equivalent to the transcendent reality int he setting? If not, what is?

>>51697179

The little bit about Archmasters in the 2E core just screams "MAGES ARE STILL THE BEST, FOLKS!!"

>>51697189
Yeah, you can tell anyone. However you then take full responsibility for what they do with that knowledge.

You can't actually show them any Mysteries however, that's flat up forbidden due to the Dissonance it would likely cause, and you'd also not want to torment your children with Quienscence.

>>51697075
I mean, it's pretty pointed to just be a bush.

>>51697189
Sure. Showing them magic will drive them crazy if they're not sleepwalkers though.

>>51697221
They're Plato's folder of forms.

>>51697185
yes

>>51697249
is it transcendent though

>>51697221
When you Ascend you get into the Supernal Realms, if that's what you mean.

>>51697189
>Mages can still teach their Sleeper kids about magic though.

What could go wrong...?

>>51697266
If by that you mean "beyond or above the range of normal or physical human experience"?
Then yes.
Fucking absolutely.

The Mage supremacists are back?

I fucking hate you guys.

>>51697267
No I mean like, is it what gnostics would consider to be the ultimate reality

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>>51697251
no

>>51697290
No. By word of DaveB, it is not.

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>>51697305
YES

>>51697309
What exactly did he say?

>>51697268
>What could go wrong...?
They could become travelling circus Banishers who torture Mages into revealing all of their secrets and then kill them in front of an audience as the grand finale for their show, using magic to make the crowd dismiss the very real blood coming from the very real cuts and stumps as nothing but really good special effects. Some might even pay extra to sit in the "splash zone".

Banishers are fucking horrifying.

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>>51697319
no

>>51697010
>implying paradigms were anything else but a pain in the ass for ST and players alike

>>51697309
>>51697323
please respond

>>51697366
There is no ultimate, true 'reality'. The Fallen world is real, the supernal realms are real and the invisible realms are real.

>>51696731
and muslims, to round up the gamut of being oppressed

>>51697394
what did Dave B say?

>>51697365
yeah its so hard to have in-game laws for how magic works. thats why in literature mages never have paradigms, they're all just whiteroom wizards capable of everything by any means.

Does anyone have those links to the discords?

>>51697010
>>51697365
>>51697419
>Not just throwing out the foci rules and having Paradigm mean "Keep your magic thematic to your Tradition"

Literally never had an argument over whether something was within Paradigm or not.

>>51697419
So which Awakening books have you read, exactly?

Dear god, they're arguing about Yantras again over at the OPP forums.

Mages aren't powerful and versatile enough, and some still feel that they need to be able to use practically anything as a Yantra.

I'm a big Mage fan, but sometimes the arguments are just embarrassing.

>>51697454

>Mage supremacy is a result of anal leakage from OPP forums

I KNEW IT

>>51697440

Add me i'll invite you

Malfeas#0987

>>51697441
>Literally never had an argument over whether something was within Paradigm or not.

And that was often part of the problem with Ascension and its magic rule. Many never enforced the limitations of Paradigm, and mages could literally do anything no matter how incongruous with their purported beliefs.

>>51697454
>Mages aren't powerful and versatile enough

Of course we're not.

The great Yantra discussion lives on. Looks like people are disliking this the fact the Dave said you are only limited to this list of Yantras.

>>51697476
sent I guess

>>51697560

Yeah, but Dave has good reasoning behind it all. These tools are symbolic and shouldn't be treated like Ascension Foci where everything goes.

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>>51697488
Thats because your Spheres are the primary limitation on your abilities, Paradigm is a minor limitation. If you're constantly stopping the game to debate Paradigm, you're doing it wrong.

Half the problem is shit like this >>51696936
which complete misses the point of the game. Ascension is a post-modernist game about defining your own reality, the entire point is willworking. Shackling it with a ton of limitations on an otherwise freeform system is completely against the point of the game's theme.

If you're not okay with a kitchen-sink modern setting about feuding occultists with super-powers you shouldn't be playing Mage in the first place.

I always laugh when I read some of the WW material on Sorcerers vs Mages, or Mages vs any other splat, because they have to make up a ridiculously large number of artificial restraints just to keep them from dominating, when them dominating is the entire point of the game.

>>51697476
For what purpose is the discord server anyhow?

I know the Kindred are fucking terrified of Mages, but could a Moros and a Daeva become buddies?

I'm leaving out the Obrimos for obvious reasons.

>>51697560
>only limited to this list of Yantras.

In fairness, it's a pretty decent sized list, and with merits like Shadow Name and Techne, and with the advantages of Legacies, players can substantially expand the list to suit their character's style.

>>51697596
Clarifying that the post I linked I was referring to the pic only.

>>51697621
The point is everything should have symbolic value regardless of merits and legacies. Merits and Legaciea sould only serve to reinforce and strengthen the existing symbolism.

>>51697596
>Paradigm is a minor limitation

Paradigm is not a "minor," limitation. If the game is based on consensual reality, Paradigm is the very foundation of a mage's ability to effect change. If a spell does not conform to a Paradigm, it's not possible.

>feuding occultists with super-powers

Ascension was not a superhero game. Your entire post is precisely the source of many of the arguments over the years.

>>51697614
If they can stomach the presence of Beasts and similar vileness, anything goes I guess. It gets interesting when other factions learn about the friendship and try to exploit it for their own gain

>>51697663
>The point is everything should have symbolic value regardless of merits and legacies

Why, other than your personal preference? In the Awakening setting, magic follows universal rules. The standard list of Yantras reflect those rules, and they are quite broad.

If you want to develop a personal style and acquire more Yantras, there are ample merits and Yantra to accomplish it (and it will likely be expanded further in Signs of Sorcery).

In fact, I'm glad the Yantra list is limited. As a practical matter, it helps to avoid some player and ST arguments at the table.

>>51697688
Its not a superhero game, but its also not a low-power system. The Spheres are fundamentally broken, and no amount of whining and saying you need 50 successes to change a tire is going to change that.

A starting Adept at Arete 3 has as much magical power, in a much more versatile form, as most level 5-10 D&D Wizards. They are not, and will never be, squishy occultists struggling to light candles. Ignoring the sheer power of magick with a K and wanting to apologize for it is retarded.

And yes, Paradigm is a minor limitation, because trying to quantify it beyond "Be thematic" is impossible, and as you yourself admitted only leads to countless arguments over trite bullshit.

Under the Hermetic framework for instance, or the Sons of Ether, just about any Effect is technically justifiable, just say "Well I invent a Do-This-Thing-Inator"

Whereas under Akashic or Euthanatos lets say, its much harder to justify an effect if you're being autistic about it.

Hell, lets just look at the grand-daddy of "Fuck your Paradigm", the Celestial Chorus, who if the only rule is stay-consistent can just fucking ask God to do it.

Paradigm is a minor limitation in my games, and in general, not because it has to be, but because its fucking impossible to make it work as a major limitation unless you're going to make house-rules for every single Tradition giving out boons and banes, which is counter to the whole point of the game.

>>51697614

Mages don't have "friends" that aren't other mages.

They just sometimes associate with lesser beings they temporarily find interesting.

#MagesAreAssholes

>>51688088
>>51690690
Thanks I didn't know there was a difference between the two. From what I see there is major lore and mechanical differences between the two.(Basically two different games) I think I might start learning Masquerade instead of Requiem for the moment. I really enjoyed Bloodlines and I already have some experience with the setting.

>>51697776
I agree.
While I've never played Ascension, Paradigm to me really just seemed to be a "try to stay thematically consistent" request.
Not a "let's set down rigorous standards on what each person can do".

Though when it comes to the example for the Technocratic Union examples for Enlightened Science, it does seem to me to be pretty retarded that through looking through their sunglasses, they can "determine" that the ceiling is weak and use Entropy to make it crack and break.

>>51697759
Its not prefernce. That's the entire idea behind Semiotics and Symbolism, it's subjective. Sure some symbols are stronger than others, but at its core evrythings IS symbolic. By making a game about subjective symbols, objective it misses the point. Now there are objective truths to Magic, which I feel feeds The Lie.

Now all I'm getting from Mage is:
Everything is symbolic... Until they're not!

Are mages stronger in MTAs or MTAw?

>>51697845
>two different games

This anon gets it!

>>51697948
Irrelevant since they're the most powerful splats in both the world and the chronicles of darkness.

>>51697467

I feel like every major dustup in these are ultimately just spillover from an RPG net or OPP forum thing that got cut off.

>>51697858

Where in Awakening does it ever suggest there weren't universal Truths.

Truth in Awakening is and was never about the beliefs or perceptions of each individual mage. Awakening is not Ascension.

>>51697858
Awakened Symbolism isn't subjective.
Your primitive monkey-brain just can't comprehend all the symbols that relate to something at once.

>>51698006

Of course it would come here because they can actually shitpost about it and not get in trouble.

>>51698000

Trips of truth.

>>51696778

Is there an actual quote of him saying that?

>>51697850
that is because of nanomachines within the sunglasses that reveal that. It's all (hyper)scientifically provable

>>51698032
Im not talking about beleif. I'm talking about symbols. Symbols is supposed to stuff the Supernal is made of. Everything in thr Fallen links with the Supernal Symbolicaly. By tapping in the symbolic meaning of something you use that as mnemonic to reach in that Supernal Power. That is what a Yantra is supposed to be. Its the Mage's innate ability to channel an object's semiotic Value to cast spells relevant to the Symbol. So know I am not talking about beleif. I hate that part of Ascension really.

If the intent in Awakening was that anything "symbolic" to the spell and Path could be used as a Yantra, why would the book have devoted so much space to an actual list of specific Yantras (and their limitations) and provided extra Yantras availability with merits and Legacies?

>>51697858
that is because these symbols are not subjective. The Truth they embody is not subjective. Subjective symbols are either Fallen (meaning that there is a kernel of truth hidden beneath layers of pancryptia) or are of the Abyss (which means they are False to begin with).

>>51698134
That would make sense, but the example has them just as perfectly normal sunglasses.
Which confused me to no end.
I mean, that's taking the concept of Enlightened Science so far beyond the ends of rationality that Control would likely impose schedule extensive re-education, if it worked in the first place.

>>51698164
I treated them as examples not limitations. But hey not my fault OPP made a game where its core underpinning is a subjective field of study than making objective claimes about it.

>>51698184
hm. Large-scale eye modification and training to spot weakpoints that allow the Operative to see potential weaknesses and cracks when a sunglass is placed near his eye?

>>51696930

You are doing god's work anon

Thisbis always the case with WW and OPP the idea of the game in my mind is always better than what they claim it to be. They make good concepts and themes but completely drop the ball in execution and specifics

>>51698152

Your view of Yantras is *far* more expansive that what's in the book (p.119), where they're little more than mnemonic devices.

As other Anons have emphasized, the symbols are not subjective, and the listed Yantras have specific resonance with the supernal (and according to Dark Eras, these Yantras evolve and change over time). Understanding the deeper symbolic associations in the Fallen World is represented by increasing Gnosis, and expanding viable Yantras is possible by altering and focusing one's soul and magic (i.e., merits and legacies).

>>51698260
like Beast proved again recently

>>51698257
>You are doing god's work anon

You are doing an archmage's bidding, anon.

FIFY.

>>51698230
Yeah, I get there's plenty of ways to justify the ability to "perceive" such "facts" based on previously unspecified modifications made to the individual. However it still feels... Unsophisticiated.
I guess I'm just not used to Magic as Solopsism.

I mean justifying all kinds of Mind abilities based on incredibly sophisticated and cutting-edge understandings of Psychology? That seems sensible to me, you're actually doing something, interacting with the person.

But using hyper-science to "detect" something, and have it come true? It seems to be against my perception of the Union. Though I will admit again, I haven't actually played Ascension.

>>51698207
>a game where its core underpinning is a subjective field of study than making objective claims about it

I don't believe you're reading the same book as everyone else, or you're letting your preferences cloud and overtake your reading of the actual text.

>>51697845
Most people outside of this general also prefers Masquerade be it for actual logic reasons, nostalgia or Bloodlines. So it will be way easier for you to find a group who wants to play Masquerade.

>>51698283
Of course my view of Yantras are expanive becaucse my view of semiotics is expansive as well. Its all about potential for me, which is a core theme of Mage. What I beleive a higher gnosis Mage has is relying less in one off low symbol Yantras and recognize more powerful symbols and attune her soul to a powerful symbols (Legacies/Merits)

I treat Merits and Legacy Yantras as specializations rather then unlocking a Yantra list

>>51697776
>Under the Hermetic framework for instance, or the Sons of Ether, just about any Effect is technically justifiable, just say "Well I invent a Do-This-Thing-Inator"

Well yes, you could theoretically make a potion to give you strenght to blast a tank through a building. Thing is on both paradigms (hermetic or ether) you need time to prepare said potion while the akashic just need a moment of concentration for his ki (if any).

You can get almost any end result with any paradigm but how you get there is affected inmesibly by it.

>>51698416
>What I believe

You can, of course, houserule as you wish, but your apparent insistence that the actual rules reflect your preferences is just not true.

I never understood why some people insist their desired changes really are the actual rules or setting. We all use some houserules. Is the desire to "play by the rules" so overwhelming that some need to deceive themselves?

>>51697488
and awakening fixed that by letting you do whatever you want without a paradigm concept at all?

>>51696007
>not explicitly in the same game but i do "crossover" events where the first group encounter e.g. a spirit and their actions influence the other game when the next set of players encounter it

would it be feasible to run two campaigns simultaneously where the groups turn out to be each others antagonists

>>51698488
Well, the game set a specific theme and I feel this mechanuc doesnt represent the theme that well. I was never in WoD for the mechanics anyway. Yantras were the biggest thing that excited me in the DevBlogs which promised spell casting styles

>>51698110
Looking for it now, I recall it being popped up in a previous thread, but the archive is shit.

>>51698506
>and awakening fixed that by letting you do whatever you want without a paradigm concept at all?

Awakening hardly let's you do anything you want. More importantly, the magic system, both Arcana purviews and Practices, particularly in 2e, are not even remotely broken as Ascension.

>>51698543

I think your desire for certain themes and pc abilities overrode both spoilers and then actual text in the book.

I think you tried to make Mage the game you wanted, rather than what it is, and largely has always been.

Nevertheless, the OPP rules police will not come knocking on your door for the crime of badwrongfun.

People should always play how they want. My issue is how strongly some people insist their vision of the game is correct despite clear contrary rules and even explanations from the developers and authors.

>>51698110
Found it. It's in M20, where he hints at it.

M20 posted:

The real reason to avoid Nephandic player-characters, though, is this: Mage is an interactive game in which the players are encouraged to act out aspects of themselves. Those aspects have power , and the things we express through them can influence our daily lives. If you really want Nephandic deeds to influence your daily life, that’s your call, but we don’t recommend it.

>>51698709
Also, this is probably one of the more accurate/better reviews of M20 that I've seen.

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/latwpiat/mage-the-ascension-20th-anniversary-edition/

>>51698625
Also allows you to play mages that aren't willfully ignorant of the 'purple paradigm' (i.e. correct paradigm) starring them in the face.

>>51698433
Yes and I do that in my games. The dreamspeaker can just wave her staff and summon a spirit, the Hermetic has to draw a chalk circle and do the song and dance, as a rule.

But beyond minor things like that, I really don't push the matter, I try and let the PCs magic be as powerful as basic description would make it.
>>51698333
>>51697850
I ignore these things for the Technocracy and the Sons of Ether. The way I do them is, you cannot make up effects on the fly, you have to build an invention to do the particular Effect. However, those effects almost NEVER cause Paradox, and are almost always Coincidental, even if they're sci-fi-ish.

For instance, ray-guns or Iron Man suits would be completely Coincidental in my campaign, the downside is that you have to actually build them.

A Technomancer using his magic subconsciously I would allow, as a form of protagonist luck, such as what Doc Savage or Jonas Venture may do, but it would be EXTREMELY limited in application.

>>51698686
I never wanted to break the game. I just feel this stifled creativity quite a bit. If I were to follow the official ruling then half my character concepts would die.

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>>51693540

>>51698755
>I try and let the PCs magic be as powerful as basic description would make it.

This is the reason why Paradigms is generally ignored, and Ascension became a gonzo superhero game.

That certainly suits many players, but it wasn't what was intended, and certainly a major source of many arguments over the decades.

>>51698709
holy shit. Did Brucato not work on Mage before? How can one delude oneself so much?

>>51686568
>Synder

>They literally named her fucking "Sinner".

>>51698833
He's been a developer for Mage since way early. He's just an insufferable 'real magick using' pagan IRL who is still stuck in a 90's mindset (I mean, one of his images online is him doing the whole 'sparkly light chain club spinning' thing).

>>51698778
>I never wanted to break the game

IMHO, allowing mages to effectively use anything as Yantras removes one of the very few minor limitations on an already very powerful splat, and makes them even more unbalanced. As a practical matter, it also has the potential to slow down play if a ST actually demands a reasonable explanation for each proposed semiotic links, to say nothing of significantly reducing the advantages of legacies, something that is now emphasized in the setting.

>>51698836
well, she is white-passing and athletic, what did you expect?

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>>51698798
I really don't think its fair to say it wasn't intended, when the fluff itself has stuff like meme-spirits, wuxia exploitation and mad scientists complete with ray-guns and box robots.

Ascension is unapologetically pulp, if anything I'd argue the people trying to make it ultra-limited and controlled are the ones missing the point.

I'm running a game of Ascension tonight, and the PCs are in an umbral-realm that resembles ancient Camelot, meeting the reincarnations of Arthur and his knights to discuss what Excalibur is doing rusting away in a California museum, Arthur's new vizier is a Taftani who built the castle they're standing in using djinn, and their getaway in case things go awry is to jump in one of the PCs trucks which has been enchanted to act as a spaceship in case of emergency.

Ascension is not something to be taken *too* seriously.

>>51698709

Brucato is both a douche and certifiably delusional.

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I FUCKING LOVE PHIL BRUCATO

>>51698780

Is there an table for conversion for USD and points of essence?

>>51698869
I mean the Yantra has to at least reflect the nature of the spell of the casters Path or Order. That's all I ask. Im not asking my Moros Medicine Man to suddenly use electric fans to cast a cold spell.

>>51698889

Ascension Revised took so much of the gonzo pulp away, and we can still hear the cries and lamentations.

#PraiseTheAvatarStorm

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>>51698929
>mfw Medicine Man with a cold spell

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>>51698780

Penalize this you limp-wristed ivory tower Weaver humping faggots!

I bet you don't even have sex with females, you buttlicking omega retard!

Is The Matrix Ascension done right?

>>51698972

>The Matrix
>doing anything right at all

>>51698929

Under your houserules, if a mage actually throws shit at a fan as a Yantra for a Fate or Forces attack spell, how much of a bonus will he receive for his Yantra?

>>51698945
Man fuck Revised, that shit completely misses the point of the entire game, and whats worse it tries to redo the whole setting not by retconning but by contrived conveniences in the setting.

Fuck that shit. The metaplot never happened in my game.

>>51698972
>Ascension done right?

Dammit, where did I put that katana?

Double dammit, that stupid trench coat doesn't fit any more. It must have shrunk.

>>51699004
>Man fuck Revised, that shit completely misses the point of the entire game

How exactly can an actual edition of the game, written by many of the same authors and developers, miss the point of the entire game?

Here's something you might consider: Some of the fans missed the point from the very beginning, and WW no longer felt subtle hints were effective.

>>51698000

What's the second strongest splat after Mage, both old and new?

>>51699044
You mean like they did with every single game-line?

WW does this a lot, they make game as a tool-box with a setting, then recommend a playstyle that is totally counter to the actual logic of the setting, and then add contrivances on to the end to try and "enforce" the playstyle on their fans. What dorks.

>No, stop playing Vampire as urban fantasy, its supposed to be completely personal horror and intrigue!
>No, don't leave the city! There's uh, werewolves! Lots of werewolves!

Same with Mage, Werewolf, Changling, Mummy. They're absolutely terrible at actually seeing how most players would react to their games and actually use them in practice.

>>51698836
I think it's actually supposed to be a an edgy/hip alternative spelling of "Cinder"

>>51699179
Or a misspelling of Snyder, beloved movie director

>>51699370

>>51697858
Can't we all just cut it down the fucking middle? easy to obtain items of symbolic weight only apply + 1 die while rare and truly in depth and hard to maintain obtain items of symbolic weight grant a +3. I think that is pretty good. More work = more power?

>>51700088

That's basically already accounted for in the Sacraments section of Yantras.

>>51700122
so really this entire argument is already in the system both ways. but we're all righting about what it's implementation is.

>>51692179
>gets uptight over pre-generated fictional characters
>sees the dark hand of jewish leftist socialist marxist conspiracy in a fucking RPG sourcebook
>doesn't understand ironic quips

You need professional help. Back to Breitbart, little President Agent Orange fan.

>>51694448
>unlike the limited Paradigms of Ascension.
Orphans in Ascension can do literally anything as a style. Fallen Tower, the Vegas book, had a guy that believed in UFO's so hardcore that aliens and alien tech was his casting style.

You need to research things before you pretend to "know" about them. We will feel less embarrassed for you, that way.

>>51696693
>The question you are ignoring is why this character are made the way they are? Why put 6 ethnic groups, on top of a mental illness and social problem?

Because Brucatto has confused excessive complexity with depth?

It certainly explains his "rules".

Consider, every other 20th Anniversary book did away with secondary abilities. Not Brucatto. Brucatto even keeps "Occult", the only knowledge that can give you bullshit answers if you succeed at a roll.