Pathfinder General /pfg/

So to start of the thread I have a question.

What /pfg/ games are currently recruiting? Which ones actually look like they may see play and won't just have an absent GM?

Bathe Yourself In Blood has an active GM. Crusaders and Pirates game both have absent GMs. Wrath of the Raunchy seems to be able to get off the ground. Shattered Star might as well.

So what I am seeing is:
>Might actually start
Bathe Yourself in Blood
Wrath of the Raunchy
Shattered Star

>Likely Bamboozles
Fookin' Sky Pirates
Crusaders n' Shit

Is there anything I'm missing? Also this is not an invitation to start drama

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>>51655712
>minor deity
Is Groetus minor?

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>>51655712
Besmara best goddess.

> Mostly just in the deity business to cause horrible bloody conflict
> Praying to her is mostly a crapshoot on whether she bothers caring about you
> Pirates tribute to her to avoid her as much as ask for her favour

>>51655712
If you don't play with literally every god ever printed for D&D in effect somewhere in the world you're a scrub.

If you don't play with different churches and interpretations for each major god, up-to-and-including alternate alignments for that god, you're a double scrub.

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>>51655712
>favorite obscure deity
I really like that they made the elder fey on par with deities for all intents and purposes.

>>51655712
Achaekek and Lymnieris

>>51655743
Honestly I sort of see the same thing. It is sad that Paizo doesn't want to expand upon the powers hidden away on the moon having an eternal war with demons.

Most of them are still around are probably both immortal and nigh unkillable. It makes think of something similar to The Taken in The Black Company, but on a more high magic stage.

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>>51655712
Fen'harel.

>>51655768
A lot of people you can worship and get spells from aren't dieties. Examples including:
>demon lords
>infernal dukes/archdevils
>daemon harbingers/horsemen
>empyreal lords
>elder fey

Non-deities outnumber deities for things you can worship for spells.

>>51655786
Yep. Too schizophrenic and psychotic and involved in rivalries with each other and their wars to even notice Azlant is gone.

>>51655807
Bigger list:
>Ahirman
>Archdevils
>Arisen
>Asura ranas
>Demon Lords
>The Eldest
>Elemental Lords
>Empyreal Lords
>Four Horsemen
>Golbin Hero Gods
>Infernal Dukes
>Kyton Demagogues
>Malebranche
>Primal Inevitables
>Protean Lords
>Psychopomp Ushers
>Kami Lords
>Rakshasa Immortals
>Whore Queens

Demigods vastly outnumber gods in pathfinder.

>>51655786
They're probably going to have to address the issue of the moon when Starfinder releases, though how useful the post-timeskip information will be to Pathfinder is up in the air

>>51655712
Andoletta. I like that there's a firmly LG version of the "weird old grandma out in the woods" archetype, since Baba Yaga's been pegged as totally evil.

>>51655712
>Desna
>Totally a lovecraft level elder god masquerading as something relatable.

>>51655863
Doesn't that also apply to Nyarlathotep's various disguises, the Black Pharaoh and so forth?

Doesn't mean she's not benevolent.

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>>51655763

https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/68106/volorexis-streets-of-cantha

Is still accepting applications up to Monday for the Wednesday slot. Thursday is already full.

There's also...
https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/67687/the-sultanas-hot-slave-harem
Which, I have strong doubts about, but the DM has been posting recently.

Where is a list of the gods and demi-gods for Pathfinder? The Paizo list under Clerics doesn't have much.

>>51655845
Luckily there's Achaekek to keep the scum in line.

>>51655952
Archives of Nethys will have the best source, I think.

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/Deities.aspx

>>51655952
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Category:Deities

>>51655712
I really like the fey gods and am mildly assblasted that they've become a part of the latest optimization bullshit factory.

>>51655983
Except Ranalc or whatever his name is, he can die in a fire.

>>51655712
That art can't be genuine.

>>51655983
>optimization bullshit factory
Explain?
If it's feysworn that doesn't make sense, since it can be revoked at will?

>>51655996
Might be talking about Mahgd's fae obedience.

>>51655712
F E R O N I A
E
R
O
N
I
A

>>51656009
I am, yeah.

>>51655995
It certainly can be. They had fun with the anti-paladin. There's another one of them kicking some small animal.

>>51656009
>>51656066
It looks nice, +4 on int skills is nothing to sneeze at, but is it so good?

>>51656101
It was a pig.

Hey guys, Dragonborn DM here. So I'm thinking of creating a monster for my next session that's essentially a Cloaker but replacing a lot of the usual stuff it has with Construct Traits and giving it the Sleeper Hold feat so it can knock out the PCs after a few rounds of them struggling with it. Does this sound like a good encounter for a group of decently built level 3's?

>>51656124
that's +4 on like 14 skills for a single feat, and that's not even counting the fact that it's incredibly easy to swap most charisma-based skills to int, as well.

Do improved familiars give the character any bonuses? Doesn't look like it, and even if the new familiars are good and capable on their own somewhat they're still not too hard to kill and for someone like the Witch it mean you can lose your spell book easily still.

>>51656170
You can get it, as an investigator, to 20 skills.

>>51655763
>Likely Bamboozles
>Fookin' Sky Pirates
The DM has disappeared before and eventually resurfaced. Granted it was only 3 days and not a week, but... here's hoping?

>>51656124
Skill Focus might not be such a good feat, but one feat to get Skill Focus 14 times is much better.

>>51656124
With traits alone you can UMD, Diplomacy and Bluff, Intimidate, Heal, or any one Charisma skill working off Int.

>>51656177
That's why you get something with invisibility and other ways to get out of combat if your GM likes targeting your spellbook.

That being said, if your GM wants your spellbook dead, he's going to kill it.

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>>51655995
>>51656101
>yfw Seelah ends up getting [ANTAGONIZED]

>>51655995
Totally is. It's in Unchained.

>>51656254
Thinking about the tidepool dragon. Faerie dragon looks nice but the tidepool attracts me way more.
The nosoi seem cool but rather useless, sadly.

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>>51656261
Wasn't easy!

>>51656170
Wait, so if you pull pragmatic activator or that other talent that lets you do int for cha skills does it mean that buffs like tears to wine which usually only buffs int/wis skills now work with previously cha based skill?

>>51656293
Nosoi are adorable and that's really all that matters - but they also get at-will invisibility, flight, immunity to death effects, and the ability to shapechange into a more unremarkable bird to hide.

>>51656312
If you're using int or wis to roll them, they are an int or wis skill, yes.

>>51656312
Of course, anon. Hey, want a +5 untyped bonus while you're at it?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-mind

>>51656329
But the tidepool dragon is cute too. It automatically grabs if it attacks and can spew a small line of fire from its mouth. Can also do some cantrips with a CL4

>>51656364
I guess this is why 2hu wanted blood money

>>51656364
Christ, at least they were kind enough to make this 2nd level.

>>51656369
>it automatically grabs if it attacks

Son, if your spellbook's attacking, something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Another adorable choice: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/wyrm-calligraphy

>>51656383
It is precisely why 2hu always asks about Blood Money, yes.

>>51656391
Huh, never seen that one. But what about a pipefox? Seems adorable as hell.

>>51656423
Its modes of movement and spells/spell-likes aren't as useful, I feel, and the fact that you have to hunt one down and get it to pledge service to you instead of just handwaving it can make it difficult for GMs.

>>51656447
That's what I thought. But the calligraphy wyrm also can't really escape or anything. Maybe it can change into a pen to hide on your person but that seems about it. The ink spray with a DC 13 doesn't feel like it'd hit much of anything and having such few spell casts feels like a big problem.

>>51656009

Isn't Magd the one that's all about fucking like animals and then dying like animals?

Why do so many people seem to forget a core tenant for a min-maxed character using that obedience is being a vicious little pillow-biter?

>>51656494
the disguise, improved initiative, and a 80 ft fly all help. Again, you shouldn't be using your familiar to fight if it's your spellbook; its focus should be getting the everliving fuck out of dodge.

>>51656502
That's Lamashtu and/or Erastil

>>51656502
No, Magdh is the vague FATE AND PROPHECY one. The obedience is literally tossing some stuff into a bowl and looking at it.

>>51656141
It sounds like you want to introduce your creepy rape fetish fantasy into the game.

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>>51656521
>>51656536

Well, shit. Call me an idiot, because I was thinking of the Green Mother.

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I'm sorry what.

>>51656383
>>51656410
Visualization of the Mind + Tears to Wine + Fey Obedience nets you a total +11 to all int based skill checks at level 3 for 3 spell slots.

For knowledges one can easily pump them all to +25 at level 3, which is enough that on a take 10 you identify CR 20 rare creatures on sight. You know about anything CR 10 or below in excruciating detail. You can name the heraldry, titles, and ancestors of every noble in the world. You can recite the name of every commander in battles that occurred 500 years ago. You know why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch.

>>51656560
What about the best hug in pathfinder has you confused?

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>>51656560
vore fetishiests are the worst.

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>>51655983

>mfw people going through all that pain to optimize
>mfw you could just grab Avowed and take the Clause that gives a +6 to all Knowledge skills

>>51656560
vore-finder

>>51656560
late to the party, bro, we've already had all the 'I want to be a kitsune gingerbread witch and eat people!!!' bullshit months ago.

>>51656556
Eh, you can't be faulted for not memorizing all of PF's obscure-ass gods

>>51656560
You know the story of Hanzel and Gretel and the witch that wanted to gobble them up?

>>51656560

It's intended as a reference to all those stories about witches and whatnot trying to eat children. Skeevy as all hell, but it's been around for a little while now.

>>51656538
That seems like an odd assumption that I can only assume stems from being on this board too much. I also plan on including other constructs that are going to recreate stuff like those floor tiles from LoZ and possibly a normal mimic. Plus plenty of traps, after all this is taking place in an area that used to be owned by a sneaky thieves guild-like organization.

>>51656598
But then I'd have to be a Charisma based fuccboi

Also avowed fluff sucks donkey dick.

>>51656598
If it was just knowledge it wouldn't be a problem. Irori's dedication already did that.

It's EVERY KNOWLEDGE SKILL PLUS WHATEVER CHARISMA SKILLS YOU'RE SCAVENGING BECAUSE CHA CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS that's a problem

>>51656626
>*every intelligence skill

fuck I'm tired

>>51656520
Well now I'm between a nosoi and calligraphy wyrm. Do you know of the nosoi's haunting melody ability can be blocked with something like ear plugs? I can see it easily used offensively by having it fly somewhere above out of sight and singing to fascinate enemies.

>>51656626
>EVERY KNOWLEDGE SKILL PLUS WHATEVER CHARISMA SKILLS YOU'RE SCAVENGING BECAUSE CHA CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS
Charisma gets plenty of nice things. Saves. Initiative. AC. Attack and Damage. Hit Points if we're using DSP stuff.

>>51656623
Let me write this out in different words to you.

You want to introduce them

to a monster

That turns invisivble

and chokes them

until they pass out

and once they're all passed out

what is it going to do them?

Rape.

It just screams of someone who wants to rape, and I highly suggest you seek consoling before you actually go out and rape someone.

>>51656651
Getting things as class features is a higher opportunity cost than getting them as feats.

You can get Charisma to HP in 1pp if you turn yourself into an intelligent undead that retains class levels, the easiest in the juju zombie.

>>51656645
Earplugs give +2 to the save, but wouldn't give immunity.

>>51656560
Pathfinder is full of shit like this.

Where's that Mythic monster that impregnates people (of both genders)?

>>51656667
Might need to find a better way then. Shit, I can't decide between a cool and adorable bird with a cooler mask or a cool and adorable golden dragon that can turn into a pen and make secret pages.

>>51656624
>Also avowed fluff sucks donkey dick.

Avowed have endless variation in fluff, anon. What's wrong with being empowered by a powerful being?

Speaking of Avowed, is William from Nioh an Avowed (Fae) or a Medium? Saoirse is pretty explicitly his Guardian Spirit, but he seems to be able to cycle through them at will.

>>51656658
Do Cloakers turn invisible? I thought they just had a really good stealth check to look like a cloak. Regardless, I can only assume from your needlessly hyperbolic statements and >implying that you're trying to bait me, which, past this reply, I will not dignify with any further responses.

>>51656697
MY WORK HERE IS DONE

Too bad there's a lot of overlap in their theme, so you can't go 'which suits your character's personality best' either.

>>51656698
>. What's wrong with being empowered by a powerful being?
It makes your character a lazy bitch that owes their assent to a handout from daddy.

>>51656708
Yeah I can very easily see my character wanting the nosoi due to how cool it is but also wanting the wyrm because she needs to write better, and it being so tiny and easy to carry is like the current scorpion.

>>51656624

>He doesn't want to be a cutie patootie launching eldritch fire from his fingertips, empowered by his nymph girlfriend

>>51656718
Do you hate clerics, sorcerers, oracles, witches, druids, mediums, occultists, and inquisitors, too?

>>51656729
>he doesn't want to conjure fire through his own force of will and not some dumb contract.

>>51656728
I can't help you there, anon, because every time I get the opportunity to have a familiar, I have the exact same problem.

>>51656741
>do you hate
>clerics
>Oracles
>Witches
>Mediums
>Occultists
>Inquisitors
Yes

Sorcerer's are just working a natural part of their own being and don't count.

>>51656755
Oh yeah, and Druids. Hate those too.

>>51656755
But since it's in their blood, they're literally getting their powers from mommy and/or daddy!

>>51656718

Do you get angry when a player is gifted a mighty blade from a grateful king? After all, the player is only becoming powerfuler through a handout.

>>51656768
>But since it's in their blood, they're literally getting their powers from mommy and/or daddy!
Don't be facetiousness. That would include everyone alive.

Also they can just be the product of random mutation.

>>51656718
>DM gives me exp and gold coins for killing monsters

Stupid faggot thinks i need his charity

>>51656624
Actually, you can make yourself STR or CON-based now as an Avowed instead of CHA!

>>51656755
Why Oracles? They are cursed and fucked over by the gods for the most part. Their powers come from understanding of the gods being a bunch of pricks.

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>>51656754
Shit, this is tough. I wish the GM would allow 3rd party feats so I could get the one that lets you have a second familiar with no problems.

But looking at the nosoi, if its invisibility is at will then can it stay permanently invisible?

>>51656743

That's called Self pact. That's called Nation pact. That's called Elemental pact, where your union with the Elemental is symbiotic.

That's even called Fae pact, when you're juiced up with moonfire after rescuing a deathly ill Hamadryad from tree-rot! Are you a bad enough dude to save a Hamadryad?

>>51656771
>Needing weapons.
>not crafting your won shit

No, because they can always pick up another blade. The blade doesn't make or break them, it's the warrior.

The pact does make or break the Avowed, without it they are nothing.

>>51656777
You're the one making arbitrary distinctions.

>>51656796
>2nd familiar
Let me have a look

>>51656777

Did you know Avowed can gain their powers from an ancient pact signed by their daddy or mommy?

An Avowed can operate exactly like a Sorcerer!

>>51656796
>permanently invisible?
Generally, yes.

>>51656807
Except you can't get your pact taken away from you. That's explicit in the fluff and the crunch, in that there isn't a hard-line-in-the-sand "don't do this or you lose your powers" caveat. If a demon grants you the power to shoot lasers, it can't do a damn thing to stop you from shooting other demons with your lasers.

>>51656796
More or less, keeping in mind invisibility's limitations (breaking if the subject uses an attack, needing to be refreshed every few minutes, antimagic fields lol).

>>51656803
>That's called Nation pact. That's called Elemental pact, where your union with the Elemental is symbiotic
>That's even called Fae pact, when you're juiced up with moonfire after rescuing a deathly ill Hamadryad from tree-rot!
These are all handhouts and self-pact makes no sense.
>>51656820
>Did you know Avowed can gain their powers from an ancient pact signed by their daddy or mommy?

That's a handout and not a mutation, therefore shit.

>>51656771

Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger!

>>51656826
Which brings up the question why would anything make an avowed pact, if you've no guarantee the pactee won't fuck up all your friends and demon college dormmates.

>>51656837
>how to have shit taste: the post
Just when I thought /pfg/ couldn't get any worse it manages to surprise me

>>51656837
How do you feel about something like the Symbiotic Slayer where you are infected with a likely hostile entity you need to keep in check and keep the reigns on lest it take you over and use your body for its own purposes.

>>51656850
if you're a demon, chances are you want them fucked up anyway.

>>51656826
>Except you can't get your pact taken away from you. That's explicit in the fluff and the crunch, in that there isn't a hard-line-in-the-sand "don't do this or you lose your powers" caveat.
That's entirely because the Devs hate fall mechanics despite them actually making sense thematically.
>>51656850
This. Like it works for "insane unknowable Cthulhu motherfucker" but doesn't make sense for anything actually sapient.

>>51656856
It's a neat idea, I loved Parasyte but terrible for a PC class.

>>51656837
Why do you hate nation pact, where your power comes from patriotism?

>>51656815
Called Extra Familiar. It is a 3rd party feat however from Gnoll something or other so most likely not going to be allowed. Already asked the GM for my game and he said no 3rd party content at all.

>>51656837

So you're telling me the ability to craft a binding agreement with a mighty Nymph or infuse yourself with an increasingly powerful Elemental is not itself a sign of your power?

Wizards learn how to cast spells and read ancient glyphs, Rogues train their fingers and minds, and Avowed court the mighty and draw power from them.

Taking handouts is not a sign of weakness, not if only a select few are able to take them.

>>51656876
So it is not a "handout" despite being an external entity you use the power of.

>>51656857
This is why no one takes Demon U graduates seriously.

>>51656850
Because generally speaking in the fiction/fluff/story that it's assumed you're writing with your GM, there's a reason you got those powers. If a demon approaches you and offers you the power to shoot hellfire from your hands, it's probably because you're either already evil, or a target to fall into evil by virtue of utilizing hellfire wantonly.
>>51656862
>despite them actually making sense thematically.
Mechanics that punish you for playing your character differently than the developers intended is terrible game design. If you have a deal made with something, or are gaining your power through an outside source, it should be something you work with your DM on deciding how it works for your game and your character, not something hard-coded into fucking your character. Some paladins might be alright with allying with evil to face a greater evil, some clerics of LN deities won't lose their divine blessings just because they drink and party, and some Avowed won't suddenly fall from the sky just because their Dragon Pact boss decided to hate them today. But some DO, and that's something that should be catered to individual stories.

>>51656918
>some clerics of LN deities won't lose their divine blessings just because they drink and party
This depends entirely on the deity

>>51656903
>So you're telling me the ability to craft a binding agreement with a mighty Nymph or infuse yourself with an increasingly powerful Elemental is not itself a sign of your power?
It's not. It's a sign of the Nymph's and Elemental power respectively. You, yourself, are powerless.
>>51656905
>So it is not a "handout" despite being an external entity you use the power of.
You would still need to be a powerful melee combatant yourself to take full advantage of the symbiot. You also need to fulfill the symbiots needs and accepting it has consequences( life if those needs aren't met it will take over your body and ruin your life).

It handles the concept way better than Avowed does.

Wait, so if I wanted to play a super Int Kensai Magus, after having seen this whole Maghd and Int buffing business. How far can I take this Int efficiency? For fun, I wouldn't dare bring this to an actual session.

>>51656918
Oh I agree, it just still leaves a terrible fucking taste in my mouth.

>>51656937
Or if it's in Eberron.
>>51656943
>You would still need to be a powerful melee combatant yourself to take full advantage of the symbiot.
No you don't. It's entirely possible for the symbiot to be everything that makes you empowered, as it basically supercharges you. Absolutely nothing suggests that you are any good yourself without it.

>>51656850

Patrons take petitioners for the same reason petitioners take patrons; it helps them grow.

Using the Elemental example, a lightning Elemental living within your body doesn't *care* that you're using it to kill his friends, because honestly fuck those guys they were jerks. Hell, the Elemental is growing stronger while you grow stronger too, hence symbiotic or even communalist!

Every single Patron is something that either has the utmost faith in you upholding your end of the bargain (Celestial), or they don't care you're using their power to slaughter kin (Dragon, Demon, even Elemental.)

>>51656961
>No you don't. It's entirely possible for the symbiot to be everything that makes you empowered, as it basically supercharges you. Absolutely nothing suggests that you are any good yourself without it.
Except the symbiote turns on and off, when the symbiote is off it isn't powering you up.

>>51656943
>You, yourself, are powerless.
This is the part I don't get.

Every time I go back to read the Avowed stuff, it draws a nice clear picture to me of how getting the pact/first level of Avowed just plants the seed of power in you.
After that, it's up to you to nurture it and help it grow. Like any muscle, it gets stronger the more you use it and push yourself, and it becomes a part of you.

Hell the Betrothed archetype is even about a partnership of equals.

>>51656961
>It's entirely possible for the symbiot to be everything that makes you empowered, as it basically supercharges you. Absolutely nothing suggests that you are any good yourself without it.
The actual mechanics of the class. A STR 10 Dex 10 Con 10 Symbiotic Slayer would still be incredibly weak in their Symbiote form.

>>51656943

A nymph is not going to grant power to any fucking loser, and an Elemental explicitly writes contracts because it grows alongside the Avowed; the Elemental owes everything to the Avowed, and the Avowed has taken a quick trip to success because of the Elemental. It's less "you're their bitch" and more "the Elemental is your horse, or dog."

>>51656962
Then why isn't literally every fucking person ever an Avowed if there is no consequence for creating a pact and no consequence for not holding one up?

As an Avowed can I force or trick the one giving me power into signing the contract?

>>51657007
>A nymph is not going to grant power to any fucking loser
Oh great, a nymph gave you a hand out because it wants to fuck you. That's nice. I'll be training my own strength that I earned for myself with my own blood and sweat.

>>51657013
The same reason not everyone is a summoner or a witch or an oracle? There is no way to take away any of their powers either.

Finding and contracting with such an entity is relatively difficult. Summoner and Witch are the best to draw parallels with.

>>51656978

This, I can't quite grasp the complaints about being "powerless" because nothing about the fluff seems to suggest that to me.

You took the easy road to success, but the very existence of that easy road means it's a viable option for power.

>>51657021
Devil went down to Georgia

>>51656988

So would a Cha 10 Avowed.

>>51657032
>Oh great, a nymph gave you a hand out because it wants to fuck you. That's nice. I'll be training my own strength that I earned for myself with my own blood and sweat.
So you're saying that clerics, for example, have no skill or competence?

What about an avowed to tricked or forced the entity they signed with into sealing the contract?

>>51657013

Same reason literally everyone isn't a Wizard.

>>51657013
>anon doesn't understand roleplaying implications and/or doesn't have a GM that actually gives a shit about story: The Post

>>51657039
>You took the easy road to success,
This itself is the issue for me and the fact that your power isn't entirely yours. It's someone elses check, even if it's basically a blank one.

>>51657032
>I'll be training my own strength that I earned for myself with my own blood and sweat.
Which amounts to jack/shit.

But hey, at least you got to stroke your ego, right?

>>51657021

Yeah. Or you can just backstab them.

I mean, Spawn is basically the iconic Devil avowed.

>>51657021
If you want to fluff it that way, sure. King Solomon fucked around after getting his powers from YHWH, tons of stories tell of people that tricked The Devil for some cool shit, Aladdin got his first wish in the Disney movie by tricking Genie into using magic without actually wishing for anything.

>>51657039
>You took the easy road to success, but the very existence of that easy road means it's a viable option for power.
Except it isn't? You need just as much experience as anyone else to level up.

>>51657052
>So you're saying that clerics, for example, have no skill or competence?
Kinda?
Idiots that are begging to get screwed over down the line. If you're strong or clever enough to trick the entity, you're probably better off just doing your own thing.

>>51657050
The Avowed is functional even with 3s across the board, just like Great Grandpappy Warlock.

>>51657084
>If you're strong or clever enough to trick the entity, you're probably better off just doing your own thing.
Why thought? If you're strong/clever enough to pin down and force something to give you power then why shouldn't you? It is a legitimate route to power like anything else, and as has been stated, it can't be taken back.

>>51657013
Why isn't everyone a wizard? Why isn't everyone a Sorcerer? Why isn't everyone a summoner? Why are you so stupid?

>>51657032

Or maybe the nymph's pond was poisoned and binding herself to you is a way to regain her strength?

Maybe you met the Giving Tree as a kid, and the Giving Tree gave you the power to launch moonfire from your fingertips along with delicious apples and a place to swing?

Oh god I need to make that now. An Avowed that gained his powers through a motherly dryad.

>>51657064
>But hey, at least you got to stroke your ego, right?
And you get to raise your half troll """"son""" when your nymph grows bored of you.

>>51657090

About as much as the Str 10 Symbiotic Slayer. A lot of attacks require attack rolls (Not touch attacks) or have saves. He's stuck using the most basic of attack options.

>>51657109

You're assuming the relationship is romantic or even sexual.

So I'm GMing for the first time and have an outline of the key points I'd like the campaign to hit, but I feel paralyzed by all the openness and material at my disposal to pad it out. I know I'm gonna have to improvise, but I also want to give decent detail to everything? Eugh. Doesn't help that I'm probably going to forget tons of mechanics.

>>51657084

So Aladdin would have been better off without the Genie?

>>51657109
Jokes on you.

While you wasted your days at the gym in the pursuit of vanity, I cultivated Inner Strength

What is the best way to gain more spells per day?

>>51657115
You say that like there aren't enough clauses with no save or that aren't permanent effects, anon.
You can be a skillmonkey, treasure-detector, flying watchman, curse-spewing, wish-granting motherfucker with terrible stats, simply because none of them need to target AC or a save.

>>51657102
> If you're strong/clever enough to pin down and force something to give you power then why shouldn't you?
Because your already stronger than it, so it doesn't have anything to offer you.

If it does, it probably *let* itself get caught and you're getting played.
>>51657105
>Why isn't everyone a wizard? Why isn't everyone a Sorcerer? Why isn't everyone a summoner?
Because Wizards require training. Same goes for summoners, also the eiodolan can't be in two places at once. Sorcerer's are the product of rare magical bloodlines/circumstances/freak mutations.

As written there's no real incentive for any random outisder to not just pop into the middle of a city and make a shit ton of ""Pacts""" with every Tom, Dick, and Harry that passes by.

>>51657109
You have to be trolling.

Ok, I think the argument has gotten away from out.

From what I have seen the problem you have with avowed is the power comes from an external source and is thus a "hand out". Except often it comes from concepts, like a country. Also Avowed are entirely capable of stealing or forcing their way into contracts.

In this case how is it a hand out? A patriotic soldier can spontaneously become an avowed. Is that a handout?

Elementals and Otyugh count their pacts a symbiotic where you two grow and feed off of one another. One does not work without the other. It is a power exchange. is this a hand out?

Patron pacts (like fiend) can be stolen and taken. Symbiotic are just that, symbiotic. Esoteric don't even come from entities.

>>51657141
>What is refluffing: the post

>>51657141
>Because your already stronger than it, so it doesn't have anything to offer you.

Or cleverer. You can be more clever than something without being stronger. I mean, that's kinda how most stories about getting one over on the devil work.

>>51657127
No, because he's a powerless street urchin.
>>51657135
>While you wasted your days at the gym in the pursuit of vanity, I cultivated Inner Strength
>inner strength
>literally an external source, most often powered by the "beauty" stat

>>51657141
>Because your already stronger than it, so it doesn't have anything to offer you.
So you're saying that in "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" the Devil has nothing to offer the Fiddler as the Fiddler was obviously more powerful than the Devil?

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>>51657032
Strength of arms will not bring victory. Your armor means nothing. Your faith even less.

The capacity of your kind for improvement without outside aid is limited. You are weak, mortal, fragile - and always will be. This world would have devoured you, were you not granted the secrets to survival by your betters.

Accept your place, insect - only then will you know peace.

>>51657166
>inner strength
>literally an external source, most often powered by the "beauty" stat
You realize he is reposting a meme to mock you, right?

>>51657166

>No, because he's a powerless street urchin.

You mean the guy who was shown to outwit and bamboozle things vastly more powerful than a mortal without any help from the Genie?

>>51657148
Also what about Self Pact, which arises spontaneously from one's force of personality. Is this a "hand out"?

There are literally pages about this.

>>51657148

I don't see the big deal about handouts anyway, isn't that giving the DM ammunition for sidequests or roleplay?

Like, imagine having a cute Celtic Merrow as your Fae patron, and she often shows up in all sorts of aquatic places to talk with you and catch up because hey, she didn't give you those powers just to be a stranger!

>>51656060
Speaking of I'm working on a cleric of Feronia. Any obedience/ritual ideas? Little flavor things to add since there's so little information on her?

>>51657196

Or to phrase it a different way: What is wrong with devoting yourself to something greater than yourself?

Lancelot was the greatest fighter of all the Knights of the Round Table and is known as the Greatest Knight.

But it was Galahad's devotion to his faith and chivalry that earned him the Holy Grail and the title of the Perfect Knight. He wasn't just 'Given' the holy grail, he earned it with each step along the path testing his devotion and his faith.

>>51657167
>" the Devil has nothing to offer the Fiddler as the Fiddler was obviously more powerful than the Devil?
Debatable. Fiddler's ass is still going to hell for making a deal with the Devil. So really, who lost here?
>>51657194
Self-Pact is a half asses nonsensical concession that makes zero fucking sense.

>>51657166
>When you were partying I studied the blade
>When you were having premarital sex I mastered THE BLOCKCHAIN.

>>51657244
No, because the Fiddler gets into another contest in a second song by the same writer, and ends up saving his soul from Hell by beating the Devil AGAIN.

>>51657175
Oh look another uppity lizard.
>The capacity of your kind for improvement without outside aid is limited
And yet we're the ones living in cities while you live in caves full of shiny goddamn rocks you don't even need?

>>51657244
>Self-Pact is a half asses nonsensical concession that makes zero fucking sense.

How does it make zero sense in a setting with multiple classes that are 'Yeah, I just do magic because I'm personally awesome'

>>51657244
>Self-Pact is a half asses nonsensical concession that makes zero fucking sense.
Why? Should one not be able to draw power from their force of personality?

Also do symbiotic relationships (or pacts in this example) have mo merit. If you do not do everything alone it has no meaning? Why have a party then? Or a companion in any sense, like a familiar or animal companion?

>Debatable. Fiddler's ass is still going to hell for making a deal with the Devil. So really, who lost here?
It is an example in this case. Let us say you have managed to trick any sort of powerful entity into signing a contract. Stories like this exist throughout history and mythology. Are these still hand outs? Does this have no merit? You have said that obviously the person is more powerful if you can trick them. Except there are numerous examples in history when it is not true.

Also the Fiddler manages to beat the devil a second time to win his soul back.

>>51657244
>Self-Pact is a half asses nonsensical concession that makes zero fucking sense.
Do you also hate psionics? Or what about Destiny Bloodline Sorcerers where you are literally just born with power because you're you.

Also you still have not addressed the nation pact, the fact that a patriot can spontaneously connect with their nation. Is that a Hand Out?

Jesus christ this whole "hand out" and "has to be me who does it" is asinine anyway. Why do you work with a party? Because having a symbiote and having a party member is essentially the same thing. You are working together either way.

>>51657244
Johnny was guilty of the sin of greed, too.

>>51657196
I prefer being a self-made man. I guess you can enjoy your complimentary waifu class if you really want to.
>>51657224
>What is wrong with devoting yourself to something greater than yourself?
>being a lapdog constantly needing to prove and mold yourself to appeal to others
>not being self reliant
>not forging your own path with your friends and your own strength.
>>51657290
>Why have a party then?
They offer skills separate from my own. That's fine. I could care less where they get their skills, I prefer mine to be mine though.
> Or a companion in any sense, like a familiar or animal companion?
Those are legit liabilities.

>>51657224

History and myth is littered with people immortalized through deeds done in service to those they deemed their superiors, I don't see how the Avowed should be viewed any different.

They're effectively Paladins, just on a more personal scale. A Paladin may never directly meet their god until death takes them, but an Avowed might have personally talked to or even become friends with their Patron.

Knights devote themselves to a lady, and if that lady happens to grant them powers for their devotion than golly gee you should be in love with that witchy woman.

>>51657326

What prevents someone being self made AND serving an ideal?

Galahad didn't just get handed the grail or his prowess. He worked hard both physically and spiritually to get there.

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>>51657326
>not forging your own path with your friends and your own strength.
But anon, friends aren't your own strength. They're just hand-outs to make you feel better.
What, do you only ever play Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues or something? You're boring as shit, man.

>>51657326

If I wasn't phoneposting I would edit one of those AnCap Ball images just for you, because holy heck do you sound like you've got issues with authority, binding agreements, and the law in general.

>>51657326
>I prefer being a self-made man. I guess you can enjoy your complimentary waifu class if you really want to.
You can be self made, the esoteric pacts are all self made, drawing power from a source that doesn't really have a say that you're tapping into it.

Is tapping into any power wrong? Anything but internal power?

>They offer skills separate from my own. That's fine. I could care less where they get their skills, I prefer mine to be mine though.
What do you define as "you're own"

Again this argument has gotten away with us. I literally do not care about your preference in classes, it's the saying that anyone else is "taking handouts" that is asinine.

>>51657317
>Do you also hate psionics?
No I actually like Psionics.

The Self-Pact isn't your own force of personality. It's an external psychic connection that just loops back in on itself because reasons.
>, the fact that a patriot can spontaneously connect with their nation. Is that a Hand Out?
No, just kind of dumb.
> Why do you work with a party?
Because I need their unique skills? I like the people in the party? Their goals and mine coincide?
>>51657350
And now you're just srawmanning.
>>51657348
>What prevents someone being self made AND serving an ideal?
Being an Avowed for one.

>>51657326

But isn't being a wizard not being self reliant? Magic is external, not internal. The mage needs to draw on the power of magic around himself rather than on his own power.

>>51657326
>I prefer being a self-made man. I guess you can enjoy your complimentary waifu class if you really want to.
What's sad is that I generally agree with you, and I prefer playing characters who are more self-reliant then not.

But you're being such a goddamned faggot about it that I'd rather keep mocking you.

>>51657326
>They offer skills separate from my own. That's fine.
Allies are hand outs, you need to do it yourself.

>I could care less where they get their skills, I prefer mine to be mine though.
Except you obviously do as you were ranting about caring about other's choices a few posts ago.

>>51657360
>Because I need their unique skills? I like the people in the party? Their goals and mine coincide?
You were being an asshat to anyone who allies with an external force, insulting them in broad strokes. Do you do this to the cleric in your party, or the witch, or perhaps the avowed?

>>51657360

>>What prevents someone being self made AND serving an ideal?
>Being an Avowed for one.

That's...not really much of an answer. Being an Avowed isn't just 'Have power'. That's why you need to level like any other class.

You have been given a tiny seed and it's entirely up to you to make that seed grow into anything or wither away and die. You need to work like balls to make that power worth anything.

>>51657360
>Because I need their unique skills? I like the people in the party? Their goals and mine coincide?
There is an avowed whose goals coincide with an elemental. They work together to accomplish them. Earlier you were calling them out as taking hand outs, weak, etc. How is this any different from you seeking party members as allies?

Also an avowed may do services in exchange for power, like you could do services in exchange for coin. Though less direct this is a similar exchange.

>>51657360
>Being an Avowed for one.
Except that isn't how the avowed is fluffed? Did you not actually read it.

An Avowed could have been passed power hereditary, power given to their ancestor going onto the them (if their family signed a contract for the bloodline).

Or you could be given a small bit of power to nurture and grow. Basically a jump start to your own power, this is in the lore for them.

>>51657366
>But isn't being a wizard not being self reliant? Magic is external, not internal.
That depends entirely on the type of magic. See Psionics and Ki use.
>>51657389
Where was I ranting about others people's choices. I dislike the avowed. I hate everything about the fucking fluff, but it's obviously not for me.
>You were being an asshat to anyone who allies with an external force, insulting them in broad strokes. Do you do this to the cleric in your party, or the witch, or perhaps the avowed?
Not really. I might think slightly less of them but I wouldn't treat them like shit.

Does Vigilante really NEED Charisma? I always thought they were a Charisma class, but I'm not really seeing the pull.

>>51657419

Psionics and Ki are not magic. They are Psionics and Ki. That's why they are separate systems from the magic system.

>>51657419
>Where was I ranting about others people's choices.
Let me point you to
>>51656718
or
>>51657032

>>51657389
>Allies are hand outs, you need to do it yourself.
And now you're just straw-manning.
>>51657419
>Not really. I might think slightly less of them but I wouldn't treat them like shit.
I meant this from an IC perspective. OOC, I don't really give a shit because who the fuck does?

>>51657419
>Anon likes to play the angsty teen rival

>>51657426
Not if you don't want to. Though making use of the social identity tends to put you in situations where Charisma and associated skills are useful. And if you aren't making use of the social identity, there's not a huge reason to play Vigilante.

>>51657419
>That depends entirely on the type of magic. See Psionics and Ki use.
Psionics and Ki are supernatural, not spellcasting. Spellcasting in all forms is tapping into an external source.

>>51657438
>And now you're just straw-manning.
Explain how allying with party members any different from allying with symbiotic pact.

>>51657438
>I meant this from an IC perspective. OOC, I don't really give a shit because who the fuck does?
Ok, we need to pin this down.

Do you, as a person, care what other players choose for their characters, and, if they choose external sourced powers, make you think less of them?

If it is just in character I couldn't care less, unless you only play characters with this personality trait, then I would think less of you as a player for not being creative.

>>51657437
>bantz is suddenly ranting
I'm sorry I can't talk about my preferences in a fun way, but I see what you mean.
>>51657445
I'm not stuck with a party member if we go out separates ways.

My PERSONAL ability is not influenced by the growth of my party members and vice versa. We're connected but not nearly as intimately.
>>51657445
>Psionics and Ki are supernatural, not spellcasting
Supernatural effects are magical.

>>51657454
>Do you, as a person, care what other players choose for their characters, and, if they choose external sourced powers, make you think less of them?
No, god no! I'm autistic. Not that fucking autistic.

>>51657454
For this character his logic seems sort of inconsistent. So he hates in all instances a character being beholden in power to someone. "Always self made all the time" sort of deal. How does he then view Avowed, for instance, who are not beholden to any higher power, who stole their power, who tricked or forced their way into their power, or are in a symbiotic relationship where both individuals are working together for their power?

How does he feel about a general in an army, given power by the ruler. In this case his command can similarly be taken away at any time by the ruler? Is he less respectful for not rising and building his own army?

Does the respect of another have meaning? Garnering the respect of a powerful being as a patron, does this have meaning, or because they then receive external power does it render this exchange pointless?

>>51657460
>Supernatural effects are magical.
Yes, this is true.

>>51657460
>I'm not stuck with a party member if we go out separates ways.
So what if your character has stolen their power. An Avowed can steal and nurture a seed of power. is this not your personal ability? It is in your possession, tied to you, and can not be taken away. However it originally came from an external source when you stole it.

Would your character refuse a boon from a powerful entity it impressed?

>>51657496
>How does he then view Avowed, for instance, who are not beholden to any higher power, who stole their power, who tricked or forced their way into their power
Fools who probably got tricked and or are wasting his time.
>or are in a symbiotic relationship where both individuals are working together for their power?
They're okay, I guess. Still not ideal though.
>How does he feel about a general in an army, given power by the ruler. In this case his command can similarly be taken away at any time by the ruler? Is he less respectful for not rising and building his own army?
Yes, a lap dog.
>Does the respect of another have meaning?
Yes but only when you can meet one another as equals. Not as patron and servant.

>>51657500
>Would your character refuse a boon from a powerful entity it impressed?
Yes. They would.

>>51657515
>Fools who probably got tricked and or are wasting his time.

So someone who took their power and now own it completely are wasting his time?

>Yes, a lap dog.

Where does it stop then? As the Divine Right of Kings runs into that 'Divine' part, despite them being the highest ranking mortals about. Does this guy consider gods his only equals?

>>51657515
>Fools who probably got tricked and or are wasting his time.
And what if they are not? Is it any different than you if you stole a magic sword? Your character knows for a fact that the Avowed was not tricked, that he legitimately pooled the wool over an entity's eyes.

>Yes, a lap dog.
So anyone not the top of the pyramid is a lap dog.

Your character then never does a job for anyone ever I assume, as then you are beholden to someone. If you are being paid for a service you are then in service to someone, and thus yourself a lap dog. Unless there is a hypocritical clause that excludes yourself.

Your character seems highly judgmental and hypocritical to the point of powerful self destructive narcissism, and essentially unable to function in a society.

>Yes but only when you can meet one another as equals. Not as patron and servant.
Your character is level 1 let us say.

>>51657519
Does your character refuse pay for services?

Are we just arguing with John Galt?

>implying the source of power matters in the slightest

I'll just use whatever it takes to crush you, and rewrite history to depict me however I want.

>>51657515
Don't you have some Ayn Rand slash fiction to jerk off to?

>>51657568
Xykon, we get it, power equals power. But come on, don't you have a Gate to be finding?

>>51657539
>So someone who took their power and now own it completely are wasting his time?
Yes because
A) The entity actual out played them.
B)If the entity didn't out play them, then it was a weak/foolish instance of it's kind and you probably could have gotten a better deal somewhere else.
>>51657554
>So anyone not the top of the pyramid is a lap dog.
No, but anyone who relies on power that can be taken away with a snap of a finger is.
>Your character then never does a job for anyone ever I assume, as then you are beholden to someone
>durr hurr I don't like your character so he I say he can function argument
No, he would still do jobs if they fit within his morals and ability to actually do them because he needs money to live most likely. You're not a lapdog because assuming you can finish the job, you get paid. If you don't do the job, you don't get paid and deal with the consequences of your actions. That being said, unless the character is borderline destitute quitting said job won't ruin them/render them powerless like having an army taken from them.
>Your character is level 1 let us say.
Then he probably respects friends, peers, and family.
>>51657554
You know I probably should say "depends on the boon".

>>51657611

So anyone who isn't a mercenary isn't worth respect? A great general of a dozen campaigns who's genius tactics has slain monsters and armies isn't worth respect because he's army could be taken away by his king?

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So SoM playtest breakdown, characters were as follows (this happened in eberron)

>Wendy: A warforged Paragon who was build in the image of a great hero, total chuuni
>Justnya: A shifter Armiger who really doesn't want to be here, total tsun
>Belnali: A tiefling Striker with an extended family in the area, total flirt

The party starts in a tavern because I found a good tavern map.
>Everyone gets to know each other
>Some of Belnali's bitchy tiefling sisters tease the girl
>Meet Grell, shifter bar owner who takes a shine to fellow shifter Justnya
>Meet Abel, babby faced mayor with Ardus D'denith, his 7'12 defender
>Get first mission to go clear out bandit path
>Map has a choke point, and Wendy sets up to kill 3 opponents through just patrol
>Other goblins get beat pretty hard and quickly.
>realize it's time to step it up
>Next encounter is against 1 goblin Paragon and 3 goblin Strikers
>Belnali rushes in, and is subsequently punched by almost all of them.
>Wendy rushes in, is tripped and pounded due to lunging strikes + snap kick combo on the goblins
>Justnya switches from lucerne hammer to longbow, manages to toast a few of the strikers.
>Belnali helps trash the rest
>Group meets their new ally, also chuuni Kanya, the flame fisted Striker
>Head back to camp listening to Kanya brag about dragon mark and misc sexual tension between everyone (Except Ardus)

All in all, it was a great session, and I really enjoyed it. SoM plays REALLY well, the enemies and PCs were a lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to next week's session.

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>>51657633
>SoM Playtest
>Eberron

So you have space for one more, right?

>>51657611
Again, all I am seeing is a character seems to be highly hypocritical and narcissistic. If a character in my party displayed this personality traits openly I would likely attempt to ditch them as they clearly are going to get me into trouble.

>No, but anyone who relies on power that can be taken away with a snap of a finger is.
So anyone who has a position that can be taken away is not deserving of respect, no matter who they are.

>No, he would still do jobs if they fit within his morals and ability to actually do them because he needs money to live most likely.
So you make an exception for yourself, this is where I am getting the hypocritical part from.


>You're not a lapdog because assuming you can finish the job, you get paid.
This general, as an example, can win the war and conquests he sets out to do. However his power is still beholden to his king.

>That being said, unless the character is borderline destitute quitting said job won't ruin them/render them powerless like having an army taken from them.
Again all I am seeing is hypocrisy. Having subordinates in any situation when you are not the top of your organization seems as if it is a condition to lose all of this character's respect.

>You know I probably should say "depends on the boon".
Again, this just reeks of a hypocritical narcissist.

>>51657659
Also you did not answer the first post >>51657554

How does having stolen/plundered their power any different from your character if he stole/plundered his gear, or anything else he owns. Does none of what he has attained have meaning? Is he a fool who got tricked into letting the magic sword be taken?

>>51656837
>self-pact makes no sense

You've never gotten superpowers from your own hype? I feel bad for you, anon, you should have better self esteem.

This thread has me asking just one question:

Who is Anon Galt?

>>51657629
>So anyone who isn't a mercenary isn't worth respect?
Where are you getting this from? That's not the fucking end all be all of what defines people to him or anyone really? Just a factor.
>A great general of a dozen campaigns who's genius tactics has slain monsters and armies isn't worth respect because he's army could be taken away by his king?
He's worthy of respect for being a genius and a great warrior, but loses points for being someone Else's lapdog. Though sometimes that's a necessary evil. If he was a real man, he'd raise his own army.
Said character probably wouldn't even give a damn about organization structure at this level anyway
>>51657659
> If a character in my party displayed this personality traits openly I would likely attempt to ditch them as they clearly are going to get me into trouble.
And you sound like an ass who whines the moment party member's have opinions they don't like.

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>>51657678

>>51657679
>And you sound like an ass who whines the moment party member's have opinions they don't like.
No, mostly the attitude your character has is the kind that will get the party into trouble with any authority figure. Also he would likely blanch if the party ever tired to enter any form of hierarchy.

Basically he seems to be a liability in anything but a mercenary campaign because as the character stands the only individuals who can garner respect are mercenaries adhering to a relatively narrow code of conduct. Well, them and emperors.

>>51657659
>So anyone who has a position that can be taken away is not deserving of respect
If they depend on that position and act like it's anything other than that, probably.

It's probably my fault for speaking in absolutes.
>>51657673
>How does having stolen/plundered their power any different from your character if he stole/plundered his gear, or anything else he owns.
Physical goods aren't equivalent to a metaphysical connection with a sapient entity.

>>51657679

What about someone who got to a position that now doesn't have anyone commanding them but did it by obeying orders. The Grand Commander of a Knightly Order who willingly obeyed orders and served the order his entire life until he was promoted to his current rank.

After all, he's got no one over him at this point, he's no one's lapdog.

>>51657649
Maybe? We're having debates about a 4th person, but it's not super likely.

>>51657679
>If he was a real man, he'd raise his own army.

And no members of the army he raised would be worthy of respect as they chose to obey someone?

>>51657702
>Physical goods aren't equivalent to a metaphysical connection with a sapient entity.
Except Avowed don't need a connection, did you not read their fluff? They can steal a kernel of power and grow it themselves, having no connection to their entity.

>If they depend on that position and act like it's anything other than that, probably.
So a general of a dozen campaigns, a patriot, who treats his nation and position as a honor does not deserve any respect. Let us say this man conquered half the known world for his emperor. He treats the position as a gift and a service to the nation he loves.

Or someone who was at one point at a low part of an organization, but worked their way to the top? Do they not deserve respect because

>>51657716
This man raises a fair point. No member of his army thus deserves respect because they did not raise their own army. How do you reconcile the fact that you are incapable of respect of any of your subordinates.

>>51657699
>No, mostly the attitude your character has is the kind that will get the party into trouble with any authority figure. Also he would likely blanch if the party ever tired to enter any form of hierarchy.
Why. He might not like it but that doesn't mean he immediately would proceed to undermine them. At worse he'd just complain. As long as they aren't getting him to sign any dotted lines they're free to do as they wish.

You assume my character would immediately act out the moment they encounter a situation they didn't care for.
>as the character stands the only individuals who can garner respect are mercenaries adhering to a relatively narrow code of conduct. Well, them and emperors.
Again, it's probably not the end all be all of how he judges people. Just an aspect.
>>51657716
>>51657740
Now you people are deliberately misconstruing my character.

>>51657740
>Except Avowed don't need a connection, did you not read their fluff? They can steal a kernel of power and grow it themselves, having no connection to their entity.
Did you? They get their power from the psychic bond their connection creates?
>So a general of a dozen campaigns, a patriot, who treats his nation and position as a honor does not deserve any respect
No, he'd probably deserves some respect for pulling that off but also loses some because of his opinions. Again this isn't a fucking bianary 1:0 thing. He'd think less of them, but more details are needed.
>This man raises a fair point. No member of his army thus deserves respect because they did not raise their own army. How do you reconcile the fact that you are incapable of respect of any of your subordinates.
I form a party of equals and don't try to raise an army.

>>51657633
>smol shifter fighting on the shoulders of the warforged
>tiefling comboing off on a goblin who started with 0hp
>warforged literally picking up PCs with one arm
Good times.

>>51657754
>Now you people are deliberately misconstruing my character.
We are going off of what you have said. I am giving examples of situations and using what you have said to base the apparent result.

What I am getting is your character actually has a mild problem with authority and does not care much for being in a hierarchical organization. Also loses some respect for individuals who don't hold his pessimistic view on being in a hierarchical organization. However in this argument you have talked in only absolutes, and now are forced to backpedal to make your character not appear as he has been thus far, an extremely hypocritical narcissist.

>>51657773
>Did you? They get their power from the psychic bond their connection creates?
Read the part on pack making in avowed 1 and 2. The psychic bond can also be to the power itself and not lead back to the entity.

>No, he'd probably deserves some respect for pulling that off but also loses some because of his opinions. Again this isn't a fucking bianary 1:0 thing. He'd think less of them, but more details are needed.
See, earlier you had been.


>I form a party of equals and don't try to raise an army.
So you work in some kind of strange anarchist structure of all equality.

Honestly it still seems like your character does not function well in any form of society.

>>51657773
Why are you playing a difficult and contradictory asshole who reasonably shouldn't have friends?

>>51657800
>See, earlier you had been.
I just said lapdog. You're the one who's been jumping to conclusions. I'm just giving clarification since anyone who doesn't immediately lie down with all authority ever must be some kind of super anarchist that will REEEE at any structure ever.
>The psychic bond can also be to the power itself and not lead back to the entity.
And that part is really goddamn dumb. You're right, but that just means the avowed is a stupid class.

>>51655791
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ4OkZun3VA

>>51657773

>I form a party of equals and don't try to raise an army.

And what happens when a situation calls for more than say, 10 people? It's simply not efficient to try and have everyone as an equal in a high stress environment or one where communication is difficult. Armies or Ship Crews don't have ranks just because people like wanking over the people they have control of.

>>51657820
>Why are you playing a difficult and contradictory asshole who reasonably shouldn't have friends?
I'm not. You just don't personally care for him. I've played this character and he got along great with the party for the most part.

>>51657834
>And what happens when a situation calls for more than say, 10 people?
Not a problem he'd like to deal with, but he'd think of something as the situation calls for it.

>>51657842
No one cares, can you just leave already?

We get it, this guy doesn't like the traditional DnD Warlock. Why is this a problem?

>>51657773
>I form a party of equals and don't try to raise an army.
What if you need 10 people to accomplish your goal, or 100, or 1000?

>>51657825
>I just said lapdog. You're the one who's been jumping to conclusions.
Lapdog is not a kind term, and you are the one who said you did not respect and and backpedaled to it not being binary.

> I'm just giving clarification since anyone who doesn't immediately lie down with all authority ever must be some kind of super anarchist that will REEEE at any structure ever.
Not what you said. You said anyone who can have their authority take it away and does not treat it in a pessimistic light is a lap dog or a fool.

You are trying to soften things you said earlier to make your character not appear to be an asshole when I suspect that he is, indeed, an asshole.

>>51657850
So your character is incapable of dealing with any situation requiring more than 5 or so folks.

>>51657850

So you don't really have a solution to any situation that actually calls for ranks and command?

That's the issue. Not being in command doesn't make you worse or less deserving of respect. A clock won't work without all the small cogs turning and a great hero can't fight without the food from the farmers.

>>51657850
You can't solve any situation that calls for an organization, working for or with an organization, or any form of hierarchical structure or interacting with said structures.

>>51657864
>Lapdog is not a kind term
Yeah.
>and you are the one who said you did not respect and and backpedaled to it not being binary.
Where did I say that? If I did. My bad. Now I've clarified.
>You said anyone who can have their authority take it away and does not treat it in a pessimistic light is a lap dog or a fool.
They probably are. Doesn't mean their human trash or something.
>>51657879
That's a wild fucking conclusion and non-sequitor and you know it.

>>51657888
>That's a wild fucking conclusion and non-sequitor and you know it.
Generally if you can't respect anyone who works within a hierarchal structure, except the person at its head, and are unwilling or unable to work within a hierarchical structure, either as a member or as a commander (as you have stated) then you can't really solve any problem requiring one.

>>51657864
>So you don't really have a solution to any situation that actually calls for ranks and command?
>So your character is incapable of dealing with any situation requiring more than 5 or so folks.
No they can. They just don't like it.
>>51657879
They can. They may not like doing it, but they can if it would bring them closer to their own goals because he's not a goddamn robot.

>>51657850

How does your character handle 'Travelling on a boat'?

Because if you are on a captain's boat, you are his to command. No matter if you are a paying customer or not. If he says jump, you do so. Because if people don't, everyone can die. It doesn't matter if you are a captain of the industry or a great wizard, on a boat he commands you.

>>51657888
>They probably are.
And this is why my character would not be able to view your character as anything but an asshole. He sounds like a huge asshole.

>>51657908
Again all this does is make him sound like a hypocrite.

>>51657912
If the boat is sinking, He probably listens if the command seems sound because he doesn't want to die.

If it's some arbitrary command, he probably complains if it's something he gives a shit about but probably won't because chances are it's something petty that it would take less effort to just do.

Then he would just get and learn to sail his own goddamn boat with the party.

>>51657953
I'm a complete outsider and a pamphlet spreading anarchist and your character sounds like a pain to be around.

I hope you don't think this is cool or romantic.

>>51657953

So basically 'By disrespecting the rules designed to keep people alive'.

As this runs into the area of incomplete information. The reason you are supposed to always obey the captain is that in an emergency there isn't time to get every single person appraised of the situation or to understand why what they've been told to do is important.

It's kinda amazing how long it takes most people to actually realise there is an emergency during one.

>>51657903
>Generally if you can't respect anyone who works within a hierarchal structure
He can. He might think less of them for it, but if the person doesn't use his position to lord over people or recognizes it as being transient/not his; he would probably be fine with it.
>>51657980
>So basically 'By disrespecting the rules designed to keep people alive'
>he does it because he doesn't want to die
>he does it with some grumbling if it seems petty, because it's easier not to argue
Yeah , no. You don't like my character, I get it. But now you're just making shit up.

>>51658008
>Yeah , no. You don't like my character, I get it. But now you're just making shit up.

No I'm not.

>>51657953

>If it's some arbitrary command, he probably complains if it's something he gives a shit about but probably won't because chances are it's something petty that it would take less effort to just do.

That sort of shit you are not supposed to do for the aforementioned reasons. You don't know if a command is arbitrary or not.

>>51657975
Maybe I'm autistic but I don't see why. He chafes under authority, but will yield to it with some grumbling in life or death situations or times where it's more convenient for him to so. He tries not to make a big stink about shit, because sometimes it's just easier to go with the flow like that.

>>51658008
It's not "if it seems sound" your character isn't a sailor. He isn't the one appraising the situation. If the character stops to appraise it then something is wrong.

>>51658021
How you have stated everything and how you presented it make your character seem like a huge ass hole and a pain to have in one's party under most conditions.

>Muh edgelord "I stand alone" character.
Jesus christ get a load of this hipster fuck. Whoah dude you mean to tell me that someone else made the shirt youre wearing? Whoah I... like totally dont respect you and stuff. I bet that lapdog who made it had a boss who ran the shirt shop! Whoah what a lapdog... what? He's self employed? Wait a second i bet someone still had to teach him how to make his shirts and I bet the lapdog brought the cloth from someone else. Oh oh whoah I bet the food everyone is eating was made by someone else. Cant respect people who dont catch and prepare their own food. In fact even if they did fish for their lunch they still had to get it from the river whoah! What a lapdog to nature! Totally cant respect those lapdogs.

Wait wait dudes, get this. What if what if... we removed money and instead exchanged services and products? Whoah... like what if like... one guy made all the bread for the community and in exchange someone gave him a shirt to wear every once in a while and some fish to eat? Whoah!!!

Oh oh did you know that the city watch that protects us from monsters take orders from the mayor? Whaooh cant have that, what a bunch of lapdogs!

>>51658019
Yes, you are.

So characters can't even complain about things without being assholes? Even important things?

Like you need to give me a more specific thing than "command" because that includes a variety of things.
>>51658039
How is any of what I've said disruptive at all beyond "grumbles about what the party is doing a little".

Fuck I've played this character and had pretty much no problems, people loved him.

>>51658056
>How is any of what I've said disruptive at all beyond "grumbles about what the party is doing a little".
Not this one instance, but the entire conversation as a whole has done nothing but convey your character is a huge pain.

>>51658053
>>Muh edgelord "I stand alone" character.
And now you're just being silly and facetious.

What is the most powerful Bardic Masterpiece?

>>51658056
You probably presented the character to us poorly then, because if you grumbled nearly as much as I think you grumbled, I'd be super done by session three.

>>51658056

>So characters can't even complain about things without being assholes? Even important things?

On a ship? Kinda yeah. You don't have time to complain until after the fact. These rules are not really arbitrary, they are there to keep everyone on the ship alive.

And more specific isn't really needed. That's how it works. If the captain says something needs doing, you do it. You can bitch about it later but for now, shut up and obey.

>>51658074
>You probably presented the character to us poorly then
Probably because we've framed the discussion solely around "things my character doesn't like" and pretty much all of his negative traits.

>>51658067
Whoahhh i bet someone taught you how to read! What a lapdog!

>>51658090
Man you're such a lapdog!

Someone had to teach you how to gargle cock so well.

>my last party
>autistic spell caster who really wanted to wank off to nature spirits
>bum legged hyper paranoid cripple hiding an illegal firearm and a foreign lover
>perverted alcoholic gambilng addicted tattooed old pedophile monk
>giant heavy armored big man with a vocabulary with about 10 words in it

Now, guess who sacrificed themselves in the final moments to save the empire?

Why does everyone want spheres of might turn into pow version 2

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>>51657633
Hey, keep me posted on this, I want to know how well everything's working out. Also check out the new gun kata talent in Equipment, it's pretty cool.

>>51658086
Talking is a free action though.

>>51658056
>Even important things?
Thing is unless you passed a motive check or have some reason to be experienced in sailing I'm not sure that as a DM I'd allow you to think something is important or not because you don't know shit, the Captain is in charge because, and this is going to sound stupid but it's true, the Captain is the Captain. He knows what he's doing unless you pass a sense motive check or some observation like "the sailors seem nervous about their captain who is ruddy-faced and slightly tipsy but none dare to speak out". Under these circumstances your character is just mouthing off.

>>51658066
Why? Legit question. He doesn't like authority, but will work with it to pursue his own goals. He looks down on those who devote themselves to a structure, but none of it's enough to see them as something less than human. He wouldn't act out if he knew someone was party of an organization or something unless they tried to lord over him with it.

Like you assume the character just can't keep an opinion to himself.

>>51658143
Grumbling IS a subversion of authority.

>>51658143
If your character expressed or acted on the opinions displayed then my character would think he is an asshole.

>>51658131
> DM I'd allow you to think something is important or not because you don't know shit,
What shit DM decides what your characters opinion is. He's free to be wrong. Very wrong.
>Thing is unless you passed a motive check
Dude had like a +30 or some shit, but I see what you mean.
>>51658158
Minor as it is. Because who wants to fight over every single goddamn thing ever?
>>51658163
Well good thing there really wasn't a character that thought like yours in the party.

>>51658143
>Like you assume the character just can't keep an opinion to himself.
Well the player certainly doesn't seem able to, and considering what a preachy faggot he is I doubt he'd be able to resist using his character in-game as a mouthpiece for his shitstain agenda that no one who lives in the real world takes seriously.

>>51658100
Whoah!! Watch out everyone Jayden smith is starting to get angry!

>>51658169
>Minor as it is
Anon people have been tossed overboard for repeated grumbling in the face of the Captain

>>51658120
Because people are faggots who can't accept the fact that people wanna do what they wanna do.

People like PoW. That's cool.

People wanna like SoM. Also cool.

But trying to force one thing into being another ain't cool. If you want PoW, just play with PoW.

>>51658169
>What shit DM decides what your characters opinion is
Anon because unless there's some legitimate reason for your character to think the captain is not qualified, like your character having been a first mate before, having significant experience with sailing, or the captain obviously being a dimwit or drunk or both, then 'your opinion' is subversive. Like sure, you're not "wrong", but to use a similar example if a soldier mouths off to his superior officer or grumbles when ordered to do something, he can expect to get a stern talking to, at best.

>>51658176
>and considering what a preachy faggot he is I doubt he'd be able to resist using his character in-game as a mouthpiece for his shitstain agenda that no one who lives in the real world takes seriously.
I don't believe half the shit my character believes though. I don't really care about politics that much.

And how am I being preachy? I stated my opinions about a class and character I played. People inquired further, I responded. If anyone's being preachy, it's you.

>>51658143
Because those people irl are a complete drain on everyone around them because they think they're better than everyone else while walking the exact same path but bitching about it more. It sounds like your character is one IPA away from calling someone "sheeple" because they wanted to be a part of society instead of a hobo-wildman.

Also, lone wolves aren't the tough guys of the pack, they're the ones the others left behind to die because it was more of a headache than an asset.

>>51658210
>Also, lone wolves aren't the tough guys of the pack, they're the ones the others left behind to die because it was more of a headache than an asset.
Well good thing my character isn't a wolf then.

Though I really wouldn't call him a "lone wolf" to begin with. He can recognize people's talents and work in a group, he just chafes(a lot) under big infrastructure like an army or an organization.

>>51658210
Nuh uh! How many times does he have to remind you that everyone loved his original and cool character concept!

>>51658241
Man, I admit I was being a bit of a fag but you holy shit you are on a whole 'nother level. People mentioned how the character wouldn't work well in a group and I was pointed out they did. I'm sorry the idea of non-lawful characters offends you on a personal level.

To talk about pathfinder let's bring up a subject.

You need to narrow down the playable race list for your custom setting. You're allowed 4 primary races and 2 minor races. Feel free to put in homebrew races, but explain if they're not well known.

What races do you choose and why?

Personally I have:
>Major
Human
Orc
Hobgoblin
Goblin

>Minor
Bugbear
Half-orc

I put in all the goblinoids because I have a love of goblinoid. Also grouping together Humans, Orcs, and Half-orcs are races that I like. Though I changed Orcs racial stat block slightly to be +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis because -2 mental across the board is silly bad.

Judge other people's race lists, say what it says about them.

>>51658258
Wow! I never knew that being non lawful meant bitching 24-7 and demanding that other people had to PROVE themselves to said non lawful character before they could even be allowed the honor of providing their service to said character.

I bet every single service provider in the realm owed you a great debt for being graced with the priviledge of being allowed to serve you.

>>51658210
Lone wolves aren't the tough guys of the pack because they're not part of a pack to begin with
Like you literally cannot play a lone wolf in an RPG unless either
1. you're playing a solo game, rare as those are or
2. your character's personality arc consists of getting him to stop being a lone wolf

>>51656141
Look in Tome of Horros Complete or the Midgard Bestiary then use one of the templates from Advanced Bestiary.

>>51658299
>demanding that other people had to PROVE themselves to said non lawful character before they could even be allowed the honor of providing their service to said character.
What? You're not even making any sense anymore. Where did I say my character demands anything be proven to them before providing services, like at all?

>>51658258
>Being hurt this badly when someone points out any flaws or inconcistencies to his character.
Tell me anon, did you cry when you wrote your character bio? Did you mourn in advance due to misunderstood and tragic your hero was going to be?

>>51658317
>>Being hurt this badly when someone points out any flaws or inconcistencies to his character.
I'm not really hurt. I'm just really annoyed by passive aggressive bitching as opposed to regular bitching.
>Did you mourn in advance due to misunderstood and tragic your hero was going to be?
Like that.

That has to have been the least fucking productive argument I've read on /pfg/ that still had something to do with pathfinder.

I'm not sure if I should be impressed or disappointed.

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So anyways, has anyone else played with Spheres of Might? Seems like that playtest game was fun, here's hoping the final product delivers!

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So I've done the math. Done the research.

Pathfinder is the best system for napoleonic fantasy. God help me.

>>51658644
Explain

So in the The Black Company there are three sorcerers of the company. One-eye, Goblin, and Silent. For those who are familiar with the series what level and class do you think you would pin to them?

Goblin and one-eye are mainly illusionists and enchanters by trade. Silent more seems to be something else but I am unsure what.

What about The Taken?

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>>51655712
SHITSEEKER GENERAL
PAIZO GOING OUT OF BUSINESS EDITION

>>51658676
Oh man I hope they go out of business. I play this game and I still hate paizo.

>>51658676
Oh shit, Shitseeker guy is back.

It's been a while man. How's it hanging?

>>51658684
You know. Out of all the fighting and shit fining we engage in on a daily basis, I feel like this is the one banner we can rally around. The one thing we can all join hands and agree on and call each other brother.

Paizo
a
shit

>>51658120
Literally who?

>>51658193
I see it more as people who wanted SoM to be the 'PoW-killer' being disappointed when it can't match up.

>>51658793
>when it can't match up.
In what regard?

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>>51658793
>>51658808
I think people wanted SoM to SAVE them from PoW. As fun a concept as PoW is, it's just too broken and imbalanced to work out in almost any game. A dark fact that is, but a fact it be.

So now they can have a 'martials are cool' book that doesn't completely destroy the game for everyone.

>>51658808
Less versatility, less coolness, more investment needed to do basic things, still constrained too heavily by 'martials should be realistic' thinking.

>>51658817
>Martials should be realistic

That's what the legendary talents are for man. Stuff that shouldn't be the assumed default, but there if that's what the setting wants.

>>51658820
If spheres advanced talents are any indication, it's just going to be straight up game breaking stuff mixed in with things that should have been default.

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>>51658817
That's literally what legendary talents are for. Considering what I've played of it, it has tons of versatility coolness, and while the investment is needed, it lets you do things a lot quicker than core.

Hell, with gun kata and mobile striker while taking the leap package, I can run up to an opponent, jump over their head without provoking, punch them in the skull, then fire my gun down into them while still managing to finish the rest of my movement. Hell, if I took wall stunt too, I could run up a wall with the rest of my movement, and with climb package (which I could get both for taking athletics), I can hang on the wall and tell them to go fuck themselves.

>>51658817
>more investment needed to do basic things
That's inherent to the sphere's system. That's not a flaw it's a feature.

>>51658830
So we're going with pessimism then? Okay sure why not.

>>51658837
Why should I expect anything good to happen?

I'm just setting myself up for disappointment.

>>51658853
Because otherwise your life will be shrouded in abject woe, since even if good things do happen, you'll have something else to expect the worst about?

>>51658872
>Because otherwise your life will be shrouded in abject woe since even if good things do happen, you'll have something else to expect the worst about?
You say this like there's another way to live.

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>>51658889
There is, anon!

With happiness!

>>51658833
And that is a cool trick, no doubt, but how much /other/ stuff can you do? Can the build that does that pull out other equally neat tricks or are they stuck repeating a variant of run/jump/punch/shoot every turn of the battle and just normal attacking whenever it's not viable?

>>51658899
Yeah, right. Next you'll be saying I'll be able to sprout wings and fly around with the tooth fairy.

>>51658900
Considering I could do that at first level, almost certainly. None of that was with class features, just the 1st level talents. That's a 1st level trick, and things like mobile striker open up options like that to do cool shit. I mean hell, if I was a striker I could have added another hit to that while upside down over my opponent.

I built sample gobbos for my demo game, and the party actually got hooked by a few, tripped, and snap kicked hard, and that was just a 1st level trick. If you keep building on your basics, you can pull out some damn cool tricks.

Lunging strikes+snap kick+sweep kick is such a sick group of options, and you can do it first level as a striker, making a hell of a combat set up.

>>51658817
My third-level Armiger was able to do the following:
>attack multiple targets with a lucerne hammer
>skewer enemies with said lucerne, severely debuffing them
>make double-damage, debuffing attacks with a greataxe
>gain temporary hit points fighting with said greataxe
>make three attacks a turn with a longbow
>competently make unarmed attacks with all of the above
>spend AoOs to boost AC, counterattack if opponent misses
>climb and jump around with ease, climb or jump onto a foe as part of a move action, Shadow of the Colossus-style with bonuses for doing so
All of that was from Sphere talents on a third-level character. I had so many options that it hurt, and none of it used maneuvers or lazily-added bonus dice to damage. It was satisfying as hell.

How does one improve the reliability of Mystic's manuevers anyway?

Not getting the right one at times can be difficult

Out of combat stuff can only be fixed with a new system that replaces skills
Cry for that

New Thread: >>51659254
>>51659254
>>51659254
>>51659254
>>51659254
>>51659254

>>51659152
Sleeping goddess style + psionic meditation

>>51657007
Sorry, but now I am imagining an Elemental Avowed linked with a fire elemental being asked to stop in front of every fire they see and scream "BUDDY!!!" for their patron as part of the deal.

>>51658073
Legato of infernal bargain.