Warmachine/Hordes General /wmhg/

Cryx sux

>>51377191
....justice for cryx? :(

>>51377191
Salty tears are the best tears.

At some point, enjoying Cryx tears will get old. But that moment is not now.

Is it just me or does it seem like journeyman leagues for skorne are broken now

How the fuck do you deal with a skorne player dropping an archidon in week 2?

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Best infantry choice for trolls?

>>51377548
Brigands

>>51377548
Salty Troll players aside, either warders or fenns.

>>51377262
>a year later he's still butthurt about being a bad player who couldn't win against a balanced faction like Cryx

>>51377548
Melee infantry, Fennblades.
Ranged, Fire Eaters are great and Sluggers are very good now. Highwaymen pretty reliable also.

>>51377610
You mean highwaymen?

>>51377789
honerable mention to runeshapers.

>>51376572
reposing this question because I would like help with army positioning

>>51377888
Runeshapers are as bad as your ability to spell.

>>51377301
JML are always kind of a balance shitshow. Trolls get btfo week 1-3, malekus and some flamethrower bros kill your entire battlegroup first few weeks. It's good times.

>>51377879
highwaymen are bad. No camo means that they can't be used as counter shooting units and their range is still terrible. It doesn't hurt that due to krielstone cost bump, you don't want to take the full unit + elder so stealth is also an issue.

Just a lot of mediocre meh in general.

>>51377898
they are fine. They protect themselves, they go where needed, they have boxes so they don't auto die to snipers. they certainly deliver themselves better than fire eaters for most part and not completely useless while engaged

Why are people in these threads always such cunts anyway? No one ever writes a post that somehow doesn't always involve insulting someone else.

>>51378037
It's the product of the 4chan/anonymous mentality.

>>51378037
Anons gonna anon -- Need to filter that out when you read.

Does anyone here happen to have a scan/ picture of the Blighted Warlord or Hellmouth cards?

>>51377059
No, you can attack a very large amount of prime times.

>>51377879
No, I mean brigands.

>>51378849
Oh wait you're talking about farrow
I was looking through the trollbloods units and I couldn't find a unit called brigands

It's my birthday and I play Skorne. My faction is still more or less shit after the errata. Please cheer me up.

>>51379687
if you think that Skorne is still shit after the errata, the only thing you should be asking for for your birthday is the ability to git gud.

>>51377301
If you can't handle Archie, there are far worse things waiting for you down the line. He's actually good now, thanks to the errata, but he's still basically a medium warbeast. What are you playing that you're having trouble?

>>51379773
Literally the only relevant changes are to warlocks and the return of free charges. Titans didn't get back their DEF12, Karn didn't get back Mk2 Fate Walker, Beatback is still shit, our solos are still shit, our infantry is still shit.

>>51378879
Brigands might be one of the best units in Hordes and if you want a shooty u it in Trolls they are the best choice.

Troll players that argue for Highwaymen are just bad. The unit is bad, straight up. Garbage stats, high point cost, and the fact that you need a bunch of support just makes the opportunity cost too high to be worthwhile

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>>51379687
>I play Skorne
>My faction is still more or less shit after the errata

>>51379844
Karn didn't get mk2 fate walker because jackhammer would be impossible to give mak1

>>51379889
Which means Carnage is relegated to the "too dangerous to realistically use well" tier. Meanwhile everyone else with Carnage either has a bigger bubble, or ways to protect themselves.

>>51377548
Krielstone.

>>51379687
Go read that errata again... as many times as it takes to actually understand the changes. That should cheer you up.

If you are still not cheered up, then you either have a brain defect that makes you unable to understand how this game works, or you have a separate but unrelated brain defect that makes you incapable of experiencing happiness. Which... sucks either way, honestly. So hopefully, re-reading the errata cheers you up.

>>51379927
>I'm going to say absolutely nothing constructive and just throw insults around
Top quality posting, right here on 4chan. Allow me to list the models that are still shit and why. I'll ignore warlocks.

>Sentinel
16 point single shot gun with a small aoe and small range
>Drake
8 points for a single spray 8
>Krea
Infantry isn't worth spending another 7 points to protect it with a model that's useless against warjacks when there's less guns on the table and Makeda1 got buffed into relevance
>Savage
Only a complete overhaul could make this crock of shit useful
>Shaman
Talisman still doesn't work through arc nodes
>Reptile Hound
Actually got nerfed
>Rhinodon
Still not good enough
>Scarabs
Still not good enough
>Cannoneer
No one brings infantry that dies to that blast
>Arcuarii
Complete trash
>Incindiarii
No one brings infantry in the kind of numbers you need to make your points back
>Advocate
Immortals are still bad
>Keltarii
Go ahead tie up the gunline, they're all MAT7 and will go through your ARM like a hot knife through butter
>TyCom
Doesn't do enough for 6 points
>Slingers
Still no good at killing or debuffing anything
>Ancestral Guardian
Immortals are still bad
>Marketh
Still can't cast anything relevant
>Hakaar
Immortals are still bad

Add the warlock changes to this and you've got the bulk of the errata. Hence why I believe that the only real changes to Skorne were warlocks and free charges.

>>51379844
>Literally the only relevant changes are to warlocks and the return of free charges.
OK, first... go look up what the word "literally" means, you sound like a damn fool.

Back? OK, to the question... HOW do you figure? Getting free charges back, and the various warlock changes ARE big deal items, but hardly the only ones.

1) You got buffs sprinkled liberally across your whole stable of beasts. Changes to the bronzeback or the aradus, in the vacuum, aren't that big - but taken together you now have a dozen or more useful beasts, where before you had three.

2) Answers to gunlines are everywhere now. Krea, the Hydra, Keltarii - not only are they individually answers, but their abilities can be stacked to get as much protection as you need.

3) Random other buffs are just scattered around. A whole class of units just randomly got tough AND got cheaper. Immortals / AG's got their core mechanics retooled. Costs got lowered here and there. Again, nothing earth shattering individually, but you need to look at the whole picture.

Results of the last big (35 players is big for us now) tournament in Poland:
http://tournykeeper.com/#/tournament/details/228

It was fun format, 3x 75 pts with ban:
>Before selecting the lists players present all 3 lists to their opponent. Than every player chooses one list that his or her opponent will be unable to use during the game. Than everything proceeds as normal and players choose from their remaining 2 lists.

Top10:
1. Cryx
2. CoC
3. PoM
4. Khador
5. CoO
6. PoM
7. Cryx
8. Cygnar
9. Cryx
10. LoE

Best Trolls: 13
Best Skorne: 19 (just one player, the other one dropped after the first day
Best Merc: 12
Best Minions: 24 (just one player, it was his first tournament)
Best RoS: 33 (just one player)

>>51380158
The whole picture is the same as it was before. Fuck off with that "buffs sprinkled liberally" shit. Gladiators were nerfed, Sentries weren't change, and Bronzebacks didn't need that point of fury anyway. Immortals still require expensive bad solos to be as fast as the rest of our infantry. They also require Hakaar to not be MAT6. Why would I bring them why I could just bring Nihilators or Swordsmen? And as for answers to gunlines, gunlines were never really a problem in the first place. ARM19 heavies were already a solid answer to them. Unless you're advocating some hardcore list chicken that is because oh boy I love boiling games down to a coinflip.

I'm not magically winning games now that my Bronzeback could've bought 3 more attacks instead of the 2 it needed to pound an enemy heavy into mush. And I'm slowly coming to hate the Gladiator now since a Sentry is just better. 15 points for what amounts to a support heavy, fucking brilliant.

>>51380431
Nah son, you're just a shitter. Get good and fuck off

>>51380385
That format actually sounds really cool. Means Circle doesn't need Una2 to do well and Circle players are just big bitches.

>>51380562
>Meanwhile in >>51380385 Skorne manages 19th

>>51380596
Ah yes, that one dude, who we have no idea how good he is and still got a respectable 19 out of 35

>>51380761
>Respectable
>Bottom half of the table
>Literally a losing record
>Respectable
>Right after a "huge" errata

Is it just me or trollkin champion hero and fennblade kithkar sculpts were accidentally swapped during production and they decided to go along with it? Kithkar is stockier, has two medium-length weapons and a bright armor with visibly parting pieces. Hero is lankier, has a single long weapon and. A less ornamental, more concise armor. They perfectly fit each others units. Was this ever addressed?

>>51380941
Champion Hero was released 4 years before Kithkar.

>>51380385
>C-CoC is b-bad
>C-cryx is b-bad!!

BOW DOWN FLESHY FUCKS

>>51380385
I want to see that format catch on.

>>51381272
I posted the tournament in my LGS's Facebook group and people said they liked the idea. It deals with obvious problem casters.

>>51380788
Yes right after a huge errata, as in about a week after. I doubt anyone other than the highest tier tournament players could reasonably parse and test that many changes in a week. I'm not saying they're amazing now, all I'm saying is it's too soon to tell. That guy could be the best player in that tournament who struggled his way to 19th with 3 shit lists, or he could be an equally skilled player as the rest of them but simply didn't build the right 3 list pairings for the matchups he got.

>>51381375
>I doubt anyone other than the highest tier tournament players could reasonably parse and test that many changes in a week
Oh shut up you actual fucking cuckold.

>>51381272
Talk with your local TOs about it. Pretty much every player liked it.

>>51381396
do you have anything to say besides buzzwords?

>>51381917
That you're basically just handing PP a get out of jail free card on the Skorne errata is why you're a cuckold. If Skorne did well you'd say the errata was a success, if Skorne did badly as they did you say the players haven't had time to parse the changes. Just admit it, the changes were nowhere near as impactful as they'd need to be to make Skorne competitive.

>>51381403
Our store ran one of those in December. Everybody loved it

>>51381917
Let it lie, anon. Why do you think I didn't respond? It's obvious he doesn't want to have a conversation about it, so why bother.

>>51382173
I think the main thing that the 3 list format does is remove a lot of the list chicken and generally polarized matchups, while at the same time dealing with problem casters in a way that PP refuses to. My next Steamroller is too soon to change to this format but I can easily see our next one using it.

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Look who finally arrived.

>>51382671
Model name accurately describes kit.

>>51382211
There was a reply posted 10 minutes before you posted this.

>>51382671
Does no one on /wmhg/ clean their keyboards? Savages.

>>51382925
I actually bought a new one yesterday, I just couldn't be bothered to hook it up yet. : >

>>51380385
>Take 3, ban 1
Ugh, not this again

I'm glad this worked out for you guys but this format inevitably devolves into a crapfest and just doesn't work.

Here's what always happens:

Somebody brings 2 to 3 of versions of a skew list, say Khador jack spam, bans their opponents one answer to their skew, and then steamrolls the event.

It's a neat idea but somebody always ruins it

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>>51380385
>Best Trolls: 13
*Sigh*

>>51383068
Yeah, I'm sure the Khador player who came 4th would've just run spam lists and won the tournament if he was as smart as you.

So models are first disabled, then boxed, then destroyed. This means that the Hellmouth spell and Snacking don't prevent you from rolling tough, as they remove from play when the model is boxed. Intredasting.

>>51383568
There was one player with two bunny spam Merc lists, one with Gorten and one with Ossrum, the third list was Bart with Galleon, two Nomads and some other stuff. He was 12th.

>>51383745
I'm glad to hear you agree that spam lists aren't really a problem with 3 list formats. I mean, without Karchev's feat making Mad Dogs an actual threat for a turn, the spam list wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective.

>>51381272
It somewhat caught on in Germany. I really wish we'd see it more often though. It gets rid of so many terrible games.

>>51383568
You don't need to be rude, we have no idea what the Khador player was running. It's possible they didn't have the models necessary to run multiple skew lists for example. The list is what, 6 to 8 Marauders now?

I am saying that this what the format always devolves into though. Back in Mk2 the issue would be a player bringing multiple Cryx dude spam lists, banning your Cryx answer and then winning pretty handily. Other factions couldn't really take multiple Cryx drops because then an armor skew would just ban your one good list into them and then you'd usually be stuck with a bunch of low pow guns into Meat Mountain or something like that.

Now it's the same issue but with different skews, I listed the Khador jack spam one as a random example. Other lists present similar problems and the format just punishes people who want to bring all comers list.

If you want to try the format I wish you luck but as soon as someone figures out the trick to winning it's pretty much game over

>>51385785
Khador player = tryhard spamfag

Why would anyone play this aesthetically superior faction for any reason other than that they're overpowered and autowin tournaments?

The true hero is obviously the Cryx player. He defeated mk3 despite playing a faction that is "literally the worst faction in the game".

>>51386327
Don't be silly, Troll players bitch at least twice as hard as Cryx players.

>>51386327
As has been said often, Cryx isn't necessarily a horrible faction power wise. It's just that the options at the top end of the power curve are so horrifically narrow.

>>51386447
Well, not without reason. Trolls are pretty terribad now

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>>51386447
This
>>51387250
They're not bad this season and weren't bad last season and they STILL bitched about being too weak. Then and Khador players are the worst about crying incessantly for petty reasons.

>>51388039
Not sure what you mean by season, but if you mean Trolls were OK in Mk2 that's kinda true. They had a pretty short list of good options in Mk2 and unfortunately that list got shorter in the transition to mk3.

They're OK, but they're options are severely limited and the faction, as a whole, is pretty weak into some of the best/most popular lists in the meta.

I wouldn't say Trolls are the worst in the game, but their balance could seriously use some work

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>>51388293

I agree Anon. Trolls have some absolutely garbage tier warlocks.

Madrak 1 is probably the worst in the game. Jarl and Borka 2 are pretty garbage too.

Plus, I know when I play against Trolls, they just look boring as fuck. Looks like they lost what made them Trolls in Mark 2. PP fucked them up pretty good, as far as making them unique. Just fucking bland now.

How to grow community at local game store

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Guess i made a mistake in grabbbing these!

>>51377191
Yeah they only keep winning big tournaments.

>>51391055
>Axer
used only for his animus
>2x Impaler
overcosted, Bomber does more than two of them and is cheaper
>Grissel1
bad, no feat, on of the worst warlocks in the game
>2x Scattergunner
meh at best, you need 4 or 8 more
>2x Kriel Warrior
usable if you want to drown your enemy in cheap bodies, you need 4 or 8 more
>Sons of Bragg
really bad
>2x Chronicler
one could see some play if you have 4 spare points or something, there are many much better choices
>Long Rider
you need 2 or 4 more, 1" range is a joke, weak attacks without any dmg buffs
>Whelps
ok, those are decent, even if you don't put them in your list you still need those models when running Mountain King, also often free in Power of Dhunia
>Doomshaper1
not terribad, fun warlock
>Madrak1
just bad and boring

>>51385785
No but really, you can just click view in the link to see everyone's lists. The Khador player used lots of infantry and like 50 points of jacks in each list.

>>51391171
They suck because they aren't fun to play, but that pretty much goes for mk3 in general.

>>51391402
What exactly does "fun to play" even mean? Should Banes be juggling colourful balls as they charge across the battlefield? Should Cryx heavies fire confetti and sunny days?

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>>51380385
>http://tournykeeper.com/#/tournament/details/228

I can honestly say I am surprised at Cryx taking the top. Not because it can't happen, but because Deneghra 2 is widely considered to be one of our worst casters now, and because I do not see the Witch Coven anywhere.

Winning a tournament with a caster that doesn't have a feat in a faction that has been so dramatically nerfed is impressive- it really speaks to the skill of the top player.

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>>51391640
There's not a lot of inter-faction synergy left. The changes to Spell Slave made it so that only 1/4 of the spells in the faction are usable with it, and of those 1/4, a fair amount do nothing, and even more are just shitty nuke spells.

I think that some of our crucial offensive upkeep spells are overcosted compared to buff spells- you don't need to boost a buff spell to hit and receive the same benefit.

A lot of our units overlap in terms of role- killing light infantry. We have a lot of that, so more diversity in terms of role would be welcome. Even Bane Warriors (our premiere heavy-target-killers) are incentivized to go after light infantry with the mini-feat on their UA "kill a dude, turn it into a bane warrior".

Cryx isn't 'bad' but they are one of the less good factions, and they are not as interesting as several other factions in terms of synergy and interactions. Also the 'defining faction characteristics' for Cryx are "swarms of shitty infantry backed up by powerful casters and deadly magic". Our primary infantry are elite Satyxis, our casters are somewhat underwhelming with a handful of exceptions, and our magic is not as good as several other factions.

>>51391667
Denny2 has a strong spell list (ARM debuffs, DEF debuffs, Hellmouth, all in a faction with arc nodes), and while her feat isn't obviously insane, it does deprive enemy warnouns of attacks by choking resources. It also means that your heavies can just barely fail to kill an enemy heavy, while allowing your gunlines to finish it off since it's only +1DEF in combat now.

>>51391722
>The changes to Spell Slave made it so that only 1/4 of the spells in the faction are usable with it, and of those 1/4, a fair amount do nothing, and even more are just shitty nuke spells.
Join the club.

>I think that some of our crucial offensive upkeep spells are overcosted compared to buff spells- you don't need to boost a buff spell to hit and receive the same benefit.
Join the club.

>A lot of our units overlap in terms of role- killing light infantry
Dude are you joining this club or what?

>our casters are somewhat underwhelming with a handful of exceptions, and our magic is not as good as several other factions
Somewhat underwhelming? You're a faction full of 7+ focus casters with 5+ spells each, and ARM debuffs out the fucking wazoo. Like what the fuck do you want?

>>51391725
>Cryx
>gunlines

>>51391640
Something more than moving towards the enemy so you can hit it in close combat.

>>51391667
Looking at the winner WTC results....
2016 - 4:2
2015 - 5:1
2014 - 6:0
Bretty good.

>>51391742
>Like what the fuck do you want?
Vocal Cryx players seem to want to go back to the days when their list construction consisted of checking if the warcaster's feat worked well with infantry spam.

Now that they have to think like everyone else they feel like their faction in garbage.

>>51391928
Cryx does have a few problems, like dealing with gunlines is harder for them than most other factions and their own ranged game is lacking. Their jacks aren't easily spammable and as such can struggle against box spam.

BUT, Mk3 Cryx is now what Cryx was supposed to be all along, a magic-based faction. Almost every hole in your models can be patched by the right caster. Baseline Cryx is just slightly underperforming, but land the right spell and suddenly your unit becomes a massive threat.

Cryx babies just need to learn to be smart with their casters. Pick the right tool for the job.

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Can you guys recommend me some things to run with Vlad1? I never played him before, but I had the luck to pick him up at a local flee market yesterday.

I thought about using Ruin and a Spriggan for the 12"-14" charges and use my Rocket Corps, because that seems just broken with Signs and Potents.

But where do I go from there?

>>51392029
Spam gunlines and cast Signs & Portents every turn. That's basically it. It's hella strong.

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Important Worst Faction strawpoll
http://www.strawpoll.me/12193199

Let's settle this once and for all. Winner gets an expected reply from PP, detailing as to why they can't give said faction an errata.

>>51392063
Why isn't Skorne on this list? Both Trolls and Cryx placed higher than them in Poland. The factions placing lower were new players and people who only owned enough models for 1 list.

>>51392063
I'm voting for Cryx. Both them and Trolls are in dire need of a serious errata, but at least Trolls still have their faction identity largely intact. PP doesn't seem to understand what the hell the want to do with Cryx any more.

>>51392145
PP doesn't know what to do with ANY faction. Lets just be real here. All this shit about faction identity means nothing when the game boils down to rock em sock em robots.

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>>51392063
What if his gums were his mouth? Look how happy he is!

>>51392117
Because there was literally a Skorne errata, and don't even say that nuSkorne is worse than Cryx or Trolls

>>51392029
>flee market
Psychology checks were removed from Mk3, you're good.

We're all fearless now, my brave anon

>>51392192
>Because there was literally a Skorne errata
The transition from Mk2 to Mk3 was a giant errata too. Just because there was an errata doesn't mean things got better. Yeah a bunch of warlocks lost their garbage spells and gained something that might be useful, but the rest of the faction is still very underwhelming. The only notable change to infantry was mini feat WM on Swordsmen. There wasn't really any notable changes to beasts besides the Archidon. Solos are still pretty awful.

>>51392224
You can keep on deflecting, but Skorne are not the worst faction anymore.

>>51392238
No faction that's forced to bring a 15 point support beast that it can't risk losing can be good.

>>51392224
>Yes, the faction got better, but the faction did not get better.

>>51392267
Trolls say hello

>>51392267
I know, that's why I voted Trolls as the worst. :^)

>>51392277
I never said it got better, I just said that an errata doesn't mean it got better considering Mk3 was an errata and it nerfed Skorne into the dirt.

>>51392281
You can still kill heavies without Rage since the Krielstone UA can provide STR too. Dire Trolls are also faster than Titans and have a better defensive statline than Titans. Even without Rage, a Mauler can kill a heavy relatively easily and has smash and grab for shenanigans. Meanwhile Gladiators have rules for slams. In 3 years of playing Skorne I think I've only ever slammed with one once, and I play at least 1 game per day on average since Mk3 dropped.

>>51380568
They don't need Una2 circle was doing good before her.

They need Wurmwood because the other anti ranged caster aren't really good.

>>51392382
I really really wanna see Mohsar LOL HE'S BLIND get played. His spell list seems really tricky to use well, but has a lot of depth to it. Pillar of Salt just seems sweet in a warnoun metagame.

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So, new to Warmahordes and starting with Legion.
I'm doing a slow build up and playing a few games with the guys from FLGS @ 25points before we move up to 35 in a few weeks.

I've built the following list with some advice from other, but was wondering what experienced players would be able to tell me.

System: Hordes
Faction: Legion of Everblight
Caster: 1 / 1
Points: 25 / 25
Thagrosh1 (Thagrosh Prophet of Everblight) -28
- Typhon 24
- Seraph 14
Hellmouth 6
Strider Scouts 9

Does this work or should I be dropping scouts and such and be picking up Warspears?

>>51392388
My only problem with Mohsar is that outside Pillar he doesn't he usually play passive adapting to enemy plan thanks to his spell list.

I would play him if he had a different FEAT, but as for now every time I am thinking how I would play him I see me only spamming pillar.

>>51392466
> he usually play passive

Correction.

>>51392267
I think it's not Skorne but you who needs to git gud. Played them the first time post-Errata yesterday with a very suboptimal list and was surprised at how well they hold up, even against a good player.

>>51392466
He has an ARM debuff, can extend a model/unit's threat range, has Pillar, and can teleport around after doing shit. You could move up to an enemy heavy, drop Doppeler Bark, then teleport to safety. You can't understate the value of him being fury 8 with Maltreatment too. Circle generally lacks fury management, with Shifting Stones often filling the role. Being such a huge fury caster means you can just leach everything back. I don't know about him being competitive, but he certainly seems like he could do very well in medium power level environment.

>>51392515
Yep he can do a lot of things, but being 14/14 (So camping at least 1 could be a good idea) and having some upkeep means that often you just have the Fury for a spell and a Teleport.

I will play him if he had a more incisive FEAT or at least one that had a major impact on Warmachine.

Someone has MK3 card for Storm Raptor and Stone Shaper ?

>>51392505
Literally nothing changed though.

>>51392768
>literally nothing
>89 changes, the vast majority buffs
>literally
>nothing

>>51392768
>>51392870
The finest salt.

>>51392920
A finer salt is the one QQing that 89 changes is "nothing" :^)

gitto gud

>>51380596
>>51380788
For somebody trying to play what is effectively a brand new army one week after release, yeah, 19 out of 35 is fine. Even a very skilled player would likely struggle under those conditions. At that point, you've played each of your lists, what, twice? Maybe?

>>51381396
>>51381917
Is "cuckold" a buzzword now? I must've missed that.

>>51382294
>I think the main thing that the 3 list format does is remove a lot of the list chicken and generally polarized matchups, while at the same time dealing with problem casters in a way that PP refuses to. My next Steamroller is too soon to change to this format but I can easily see our next one using it.
What's really cool about it is that it deals with "problem casters" organically, in a way that's fair and shifts with the meta. I think I'm going to run my next event this way.

>>51393071
The only thing it does is killing the Faction that has one caster to do thing.

Just think how troll are happy without Madrak or how cryx can't run the anti ranged caster against Cygnar.

The format just incourage to play the Faction that have a good stapple of caster rather the one with 1 or 2.

>>51392388
>I really really wanna see Mohsar LOL HE'S BLIND get played. His spell list seems really tricky to use well, but has a lot of depth to it. Pillar of Salt just seems sweet in a warnoun metagame.
Mohsar is cool and a lot of fun to play, but unfortunately he is down on the low end of the power curve right now. I played him a lot in Mk2, less now, but he hasn't changed that much. He's a very high skill cap caster, I'll say that - you may not win most games with him, but playing him will definitely make YOU better.

>>51392267
YEAH! Damn those squishy support solos like the Titan Gladiator, they are so easy to snipe out and if you lose them then your whole list just falls apart! Oh, wait...

>>51392768
>Literally
Literally

>>51393043
Yes. Everyone is cuck on the internet anon.
"Autistic Memeing"

>>51380089
http://conflictchamber.com/#b91b3V5J4D4D4D6r6r5U6agh

Skorne Army - 75 / 75 points

(Morghoul 1) Master Tormentor Morghoul [+30]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Agonizer [6]
- Agonizer [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Praetorian Karax (max) [11]
- Praetorian Karax Officer & Standard [4]

I Know nothing about Skorne but 4 face fucking heavies seems like a good start with shield wall infantry screen.

>>51393099
The point about multiple skew lists makes sense, but could you explain the "one caster to do a thing" problem? Why would trolls be happy without Madrak?

I mean, yeah, I get that you don't get to play your list that's specifically tailored to beat the opponent, but same rules apply to the opponent. All it does is smooth out the field... your faction is as strong as your average list.

Really, you're in much the same position as you'd be with a two list format, it's just instead of coming up with a pair that works, you have to come up with three (any of lists A+B, A+C, or B+C need to be able to cover the whole field), EXCPEPT that if your pairing has a glaring weak spot, like Wurmwood or Haley2, you don't have to worry about that specifically.

>>51393254
I stand corrected

>>51393315
>EXCPEPT
it's a word now

>>51393326
Yeah ya dirty cuck monkey r8 my b8 m8

http://conflictchamber.com/#b21b0A243U1S2jfV2jfV2jfV3D3p3p3t

Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points

(Kreoss 2) Grand Exemplar Kreoss [+28]
- Templar [15]
- Sanctifier [14]
- Castigator [12]
Knights Exemplar [9]
- Knights Exemplar Officer [5]
Knights Exemplar [9]
- Knights Exemplar Officer [5]
Knights Exemplar [9]
- Knights Exemplar Officer [5]
High Exemplar Gravus [9]
Knights Exemplar Seneschal [5]
Knights Exemplar Seneschal [5]
Vassal Mechanik [1]

>>51393315
>Why would trolls be happy without Madrak?

That the point. They aren't happy. Madrak 2 is considerated the best caster you can have in Troll and the one that is keeping the faction on his back, on this list format everyone would simply ban Madrak 2 list.

Another example I play Circle. Proably my pair would have another caster to drop against gun line and the best bet is pKrueger.

But if I go against a Ret player that run a Ossy and Issy gunline I probably go against a poor match because he ban Wurmwood and both Ossy and Issy gunline have a good game against pKrueger.

Against a Cygnar player is more or less the same, everything he has to do is running Kara in his pairing so that I have to ban here every single time while I am left against H2 without my best drop.

>>51392145
>Trolls still have their faction identity largely intact
I'm a troll player and I have no idea what's their faction identity right now. Buff faction? Not with animi being self. Light beast faction? Lol, nope. Tough infantry? Not anymore. Please, enlighten me.

so, I'm not sure because I haven't done any tourney play yet, but wouldn't your best bet in the "ban three" list be to bring an infantry skew and a jack skew, then bring a middleground army with your strongest caster? that way if they ban away your skew list that beats theirs you can just run your middleground caster and beat them through skill/raw power instead of skew?

>>51392920
>i was just pretending to be retarded

>>51393549
I think the best way to do it is to answer the following two questions for every faction:
1) What will they ban?
2) Can my pair still deal with them?

rules question: if I use Father Lucant and cast Positive charge on one Inverter, he gains +2 on Attack and Damage rolls. I have another Inverter within 3" of him, so it ALSO gains the buff. If I cast Positive Charge on the second Inverter, since it becomes a SOURCE of the spell instead of just a recipient, does it gain +4 instead? Why or why not, because I can't find anyone arguing for or against this and everyone at my LGS is confused by it.

>>51393670
then wouldn't it be logical to just bring a ridiculous list that you KNOW will be banned, and then use the other two slots for something you can still win with reliably through practice?

>>51393682
Nope. Same effect, same name -> does not stack.

>>51393682
>then wouldn't it be logical to just bring a ridiculous list that you KNOW will be banned
Yeah, I usually bring Haley2 for that explicit purpose.

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Anyone have working links to Mark I books? The OP links do not work.

>>51393304
You've probably got a couple two many titan eggs in that bronzebasket there, anon. It DOES have the general shape of a Morg1 list, but it's missing some elements that you're going to, uh... miss.

- Get a gladiator in there. Rush is too good on slow heavies to pass up, and he'll do almost as much work as the BB's with Abuse. And SPD 8 bronzebacks with Rush/Abuse are fucking terrors.

- You'll miss having the Archidon, I expect. Sprint is a favorite for Morg to pop in and out of the midfield. He can of course use MK's reposition, but it costs one more and is 2" shorter. Nice to have the flexibility.

- The new Krea puts Morg back in "can't touch this" territory against shooting. You can try without it, but getting shot down is a major vulnerability for him, since he likes to play forward.

- If the karax are just going to be fodder, the officer doesn't do much for him. I'd ditch the officer, maybe drop 1 Aggy, and try to get a 2nd unit in there. 20 bodies in your screen is a lot better than 10.

>>51393453
OK, right.. I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe trolls suffer in this format, I'm not sure. But it's pretty clear the intent of the format is to limit the power of S-tier problem casters, so yeah, if you're crutching on one specific power caster, you're gonna have a bad time.

Yes, you're going to bring Madrak2, and no, you're probably not going to get to play him much. So, yeah, your other pair needs to be able to cover as much of the field as possible. But on the upside, you also get to ban the specific troll bogeymen from other factions. No Denny1, no 2Na, no Haley2, etc.

>>51393549
>bring an infantry skew and a jack skew, then bring a middleground army..
>>51393682
>bring a ridiculous list that you KNOW will be banned
I'm sure there are a lot of ways to game the system, like any tournament format. But it doesn't seem like any of these would break the game. The "two different skews and one normal list" is honestly probably what a lot of people would do, and you probably end up with something like a normal two-list experience. The "one ridiculous list" thing is probably just gimping yourself, since your opponent can then force a list chicken on you if they want (especially if they think they have a shot against your "ridiculous list"). And the "three of the same skew" thing only works if you get lucky enough to not draw an opponent with two lists that can beat the skew. Some factions just automatically slam specific skews, without really trying, so it's harder than you think.

What if 5 list 2 ban?

>>51394029
>and you probably end up with something like a normal two-list experience

A) Bring infantry Skew, ARM skew and Balanced list.

B) Has Anti infantry list, Anti ARM list and balanced list.

It's literally a 50% chance that one of the player auto lose.

A) Ban anti Armor -> B) Ban Infantry list = A) Win dropping ARM;
A) Ban anti infantry -> B)Ban infantry = B) Drop anti ARM;

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Redpill me on Manhunters.

I picked the Yuri Squad up for cheap and scratched the old paint job off of them.

Anyone have a link to today's no quarter? My worthless fucking subscription gets me the magazine 1-2 weeks after the street date.

>>51394178
not very good. threat range is weak, and don't survive counter punch.

>>51393834

>>51393304
i was just making a list off the top of my head trying to show the guy that maybe not every thing is bad.

>>51394096
>Carrying 5 lists worth of models to an event
lol

>>51395047
Easy if your PoM Khador or Cygnar

>>51394133
So you're saying, if you bring a specific set of skew lists, and your opponent brings a specific set of answer lists, then you'll end up in a list chicken situation? Seems... pretty status-quo, honestly.

The big problem with being guy A in that picture is if your opponent doesn't play ball. If he brings two lists that crack armor, say, he can just ban your dudespam and knows what A will have to play.

>>51394931
>i was just making a list off the top of my head trying to show the guy that maybe not every thing is bad.
Oh, definitely. Everything is definitely not bad.. quite the opposite. But AngryAnon's gonna be angry, what can you do.

>>51395193
Help my anon brother regain his confidence and show him the light. My friend plays legion but with a bit of help hes coming back from all hope is lost.

>>51395209
Man, it really feels bad to know that people get tabled so hard in mk3 that they lose interest in the hobby.

>>51395282
Honestly I am seeing less tabling in MKIII than MKII.
In my zone we have always been 4-5 active player, but with MK3 we are arriving to 10+ player.

The truth is that the state of the game is better than MKII a lot of the problem we see in new edition is just because we had really high hope, hope that could had been keeping if PP had another year for internal playtesting.

Soles admited in the Skorne Errata insider that they didn't have time after finishing MK3 to revision it at army finished so a lot of things passed in the way we know.

I was one of the player that lost hope in PP, but with Errata I am really starting to give them some trust. Especially in the light of the fact that they are admiting their mistakes.

I think that with the new mode of testing model and the speed in which PP wwant to address problem in another year we will have a MK3 that is everything we wanted.

>>51380431
>Bronzebacks didn't need that point of fury anyway
THIS is my favorite. Sure, free charges and an extra point of fury? Who needs that? Damage output is for losers. It's not like anybody's trying to skew ARM or boxes lately, right?

"I wrote to the paingivers, to send me a pet. They sent me a... BRONZEBACK! He was too furious. I sent him back."

>>51394178
A cruise missile that will kill anything it hits besides a beast or jack. They die pretty much right afterwards though. Forest sight is pretty troll for charges though.

>>51380568
>That format actually sounds really cool. Means Circle doesn't need Una2 to do well and Circle players are just big bitches.
If anybody was going to break that format, it would be Circle. One of the few factions that has multiple very powerful casters to choose from.

>>51395460
>I was one of the player that lost hope in PP, but with Errata I am really starting to give them some trust. Especially in the light of the fact that they are admiting their mistakes.
Yeah, same. Very happy that Privateer issued the mea culpa and seems to be back headed in a positive direction.

>>51395282
>Man, it really feels bad to know that people get tabled so hard in mk3 that they lose interest in the hobby.
To be fair, WMH has never been very friendly to people who get discouraged easily. They've actually toned down the noobstomping a bit in recent years... used to be accepted wisdom that any new player would get their teeth kicked in for 20 or 30 straight matches before they even started to make a game of it.

>>51395603
>pick up Vyros1/Helynna
>play into Haley2 constantly
And that's how I lost the will to play regularly!

>>51395193
I'm still waiting.

>>51395655
>And that's how I lost the will to play regularly!
That's too bad. I find the game is very rewarding, but you definitely have to get over that steep part of the curve first.

>>51395696
For what, Legion advice? I'm not good with Legion, wasn't even when they were on top of the game. Can't offer much... just the usual, "take something that looks cool, get it on the table, rinse, repeat". Mk3 is still young enough that nobody's really got the answers, you just have to get something on the table and start figuring it out.

>>51395655
Helynna should play well into Haley2. Depends on the list, honestly. If Haley's gun-heavy she'll have a bad time.

>>51395525
>[Manhunter is] a cruise missile that will kill anything it hits besides a beast or jack.
Correct. Problem with being a hard hitting melee solo in Khador is that's their whole thing. The faction has got hard hitting melee models coming out their backsides. It's a bit like being a solo with a cool gun in Cygnar... like, yeah, that's a cool gun, but I'm already bringing 30 points of solos with cool guns.

Look, if you dig the aesthetic, great - you can absolutely put manhunters on the table, and get some good work out of them. Even if they die early, they're pretty cheap, so it doesn't hurt much. They just don't really have anything to distinguish them over any of the other choices that do similar things.

>>51395526
Eh, I think Karchev/Harkevich is probably the most format-breaking pairing.

>>51395525
>>51395810
Feels like a missed opportunity that Manhunters didn't get Ambush in the edition jump, even if it meant their stats had to be toned back a bit for the points to make sense.

Ambush would give them a distinct role in the faction, it fits thematically (Yuri's entire fluff piece basically just describes an ambush, for instance), and it would give them a little more to connect them to the Woodsmen, for whom they feel a bit like the "solo version of an elite unit member" model.

>>51395868
>Eh, I think Karchev/Harkevich is probably the most format-breaking pairing.
Really? Post-errata, I think most players would either ban your 3rd list (if they are confident facing Khador armor), or ban Hark and just deal with what comes. Karchev is still good, but he's a lot less scary for many lists with his feat toned back... jamming up his BG is actually possible now.

So speaking of manhunter talk

Which caster would you use to bring yuri, 2 manhunters, and a unit of kossites vs circle? There's a circle player here that loves his forests.

Anybody have Grind spoilers? My LGS shit the bed again, like third time this month on my orders and now I'm not gonna see the rules until Monday.

>>51395969
>Which caster would you use to bring yuri, 2 manhunters, and a unit of kossites vs circle
Nice thing about those guys is they're kind of an independent module. You could do something like Vlad2 and buff those manhunters to god levels (that's some RETRO khador tech for you, right there), but it's not really necessary to do so.

Better bet is to take a list you're comfortable playing in to Circle anyway, and swap those guys in. Use them to keep the Circle player busy and to enable your list to do what it wants to be doing anyway.

>>51395969
Speaking of manhunter talk some more - when I first read the Khador cards, I really expected one of the first lists I'd see to be Zerkova1 with her 12" cloud wall and just all the weaponmasters. Haven't seen it yet... or really much Lady Z in general, actually. Butcher and Karchev I guess have just been too good.

>>51396216
The first mk3 list I played was Z1 with two units of doom reavers. It went pretty great.

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Opinion on those?

How the fuck do you transport Satyxis Raiders without them falling apart. Especially the leader. Those whips are fragile as fuck.

>>51395969
Kozlov is a safe bet. +2 speed is nice.

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So I haven't played Hordes in years (I think summer of 2013) and I used to play Trolls. I was told they weren't so great, but I liked their appearance and ended up having fun, especially with Gunnbjorn. I played 35 points with my friends, and now I'm seeing that the formats are a little different.

Is 50 points the way to go now if you used to do 35?

Should I buy the Mk3 deck for Trollbloods? All of my cards are Mk2 I believe.

I probably want to keep using Gunnbjorn, especially because I just play fairly casually, but any suggestions in that regard are greatly appreciated. I have a bomber, slag troll, 2 impalers and an axer for beasts, pyg burrowers and fennblades for units, and janissa and totem hunter for solos. The only other warlock I have is Madrak1.

>>51396600
I got so frustrated with mine that I cut them off and just replaced the entire arms with whips from some GW kit. Sisters of Sadness or something like that? I've also seen people rebuild them with floral wire, jewelry chain, etc.

>>51396302
Opinion here is their pretty great. Cool models, cool rules.

>>51397015
>Is 50 points the way to go now if you used to do 35?
Yeah, 50 is about the same model count as old 35. Points costs about doubled, but BG points increased dramatically also.

>Should I buy the Mk3 deck for Trollbloods?
You can if you like, but you will have to do something about cards that got errata'd or are new - either mark your cards up with corrections, or print replacements. They are shortly (at L&L, I think), releasing PDF's of all current cards, with blanket permission to print as you like. So you can get the deck, or just wait a bit (or find a pdf of the cards and print them out now, if you just want to take it for a spin).

Welcome back!

>>51396258
Yeah, I think those first couple months Kara maybe had people feeling down on clouds and cloudwalls. It's just one of those binary things - people either have an answer, and you lose, or they don't and you win. Good to hear someone had a little success with it though!

>>51397015
>Should I buy the Mk3 deck for Trollbloods?

If you have an iOS or Android device to run it on, I would suggest getting the Trollbloods deck for WarRoom 2 instead.

Full cards will be available online at some point in the future, and some of the cards in the 2016 deck are already obsolete by erratas. The WarRoom 2 deck is cheaper than the physical one, anyway.

WR2 does suck, though, but right now it's the best way to get the cards, and is fairly cheap if you just care about your faction.

>>51397469
Awesome thanks, I'll probably just wait for the pdf then. I'm excited to get back into things, I'm just hoping people will play 50 points at my LGS, its notorious for having players from most games who are a bit more into their respective hobbies than casual players are.

>>51397015
Good news for you, Gunnbjorn is probably the best he's ever been right now. Biggest change is that the snipe animus is now RNG Self (although both the impaler and bomber have it).

Ranged beasts, especially bombers, are still great with him of course. He's one of the few casters that still makes Impalers really work. He even got his own character beast in the interim, Dozer&Smigg (jury's still out on whether that one's worth it). From what you rattled off, probably just throw everything in a list with him and see what clicks for you.

Madrak1 this edition is unfortunately a bit of a lame duck, but if you're just playing casual that may not bother you much.

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>>51393379
Too slow and to easy to remove. Knights are by no means first wave units. If you can't deliver them they are worthless better use some Errants for screening and shooting. Also HR would be so much better for this list.

>>51398558
I think knights can be first wave with Vindictus.

>>51397664
>Dozer&Smigg (jury's still out on whether that one's worth it)
Dozer & Smigg is worth it with Gunnbjorn. It takes your opponent putting a model in his charge range to max out, but 24" of threat on multiple fully boosted arcing fire POW 14's (even just the 7's if you miss)... nothing to scoff at.

Lucky shot is a great animus in this particular list as well... lots and lots of AOE guns that you'd really love to be a bit more accurate. The battle engine in particular really comes to life with that buff.

Played Hexeris1 today. The more I play him, the more I actually enjoy him.

>>51395511
Doesn't it also open up a possible fury to allow for transfers?

4 extra attacks and a transfer target sounds pretty okay.

>>51398558
>>51398615
True but this a Kreoss 2 list.

http://conflictchamber.com/#b21b0A1L1L1L2jfV2jfV2jfV2K2L3C3p3p7z

Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points

(Kreoss 2) Grand Exemplar Kreoss [+28]
- Vigilant [9]
- Vigilant [9]
- Vigilant [9]
Knights Exemplar [9]
- Knights Exemplar Officer [5]
Knights Exemplar [9]
- Knights Exemplar Officer [5]
Knights Exemplar [9]
- Knights Exemplar Officer [5]
Temple Flameguard (max) [11]
- Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard [4]
The Covenant of Menoth [4]
Knights Exemplar Seneschal [5]
Knights Exemplar Seneschal [5]
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [4]


How about this The wall of TFG supported by 3 vigilants. Rhupert to boost DEF on the TFG

Kreoss2 feats with a 2nd wave alpha of KES+KE

>>51399165
>Losing a battlegroup point
Muh autism.

>>51399189
>tfw running Behemoth as your only Jack
muh value

>>51399140
There's absolutely no reason being Fury 5 instead of Fury 4 is a bad thing. The Bronzeback being able to kill the world has been a faction-defining trait for Skorne since Mk1. I'm glad he's back.

>>51399313
>I'm glad he's back.
Apart from how he lost 2 points of DEF. Oh and how he lost his animus. Oh and he lost hyper aggressive. Oh and don't forget the leadership nerf.

But you're right, he's back.

>>51399420
What's his def 11? vs 13?

>>51399464
10 vs 12

>>51399464
He like all Titans, are 10/19. They were 12/19 in Mk2. We didn't really get any buffs to compensate for this pretty huge drop, PP just said "muh fluff muhfuggah" about it.

>>51399501
>>51399496
10/19 isn't gr8
10 vs 12 is still a hit on average dice rolls with mat6

PoM jacks are 10/19---way cheaper though.

INB4 CHIOR!!!!

If a Crusader and a Bronze Back start in combat with 3 focus or no fury. The bronzback will one round the crusader.

>>51399769
Depends on who hits first.

If the crusader goes first, it's not killing the bronzeback but it is taking out two aspects. If it has a choir buff, then it probably kills the bronzeback with 3 focus.

>>51399807
removing aspects matter little to beasts. If the crusader fails to one round the BB, it dies. practically unconditionally. This is the same with almost any non khador heavy going in on a warbeast.

>>51393938
Why not add an extra requirement for making the different list actually be different?

Like say you require the lists to be no more than 66% similar, then in a 75 point game you can't have more than 50 points match either of your other two lists.

>>51399878
The bronzeback is 18 points, the crusader 10.

>>51399878
A Crusader will kill a Bronzeback on average rolls with Choir, and a Crusader costs 10 points while a Bronzeback costs 18.

And please, fuck off if you think going down to DEF10 isn't a humongous nerf.

>MAT6 vs DEF10
8.32% chance to miss

>MAT6 vs DEF12
27.76% chance to miss

You think that's not a huge deal? This isn't even considering other things in faction that got indirectly nerfed by this, like Mordikaar's feat that provides +3DEF.

>>51399807
Crippling aspects doesn't fucking matter, since the only thing they COULD force, are order of activation issues or less spellcasting.

Warbeasts have to be one-rounded or else they will take away your Warjack. No buts, whens or ifs. That's exactly why Warbeasts cost more than Warjacks.

>>51399962
You act like warbeasts are difficult to one round with warjacks. Then you get stupid shit like Amon who makes it trivial to wipe any warjack off the table. A Titan Sentry with Agonizer backup dies to a Crusader with Choir and 3 stacks of Synergy. A 15 point ARM23 heavy with 6 points of support dies to a 10 point heavy. Fuck you.

>>51399962
So then you take your 10 point crusader to do ~25 damage to the bronzeback if it somehow doesn't have choir buff, and use your cost savings to send in a combat solo or something to finish the job.

>>51400015
Sounds fair to me, I don't see the problem.

The 18 model fucking obliterates the 10 point model and the 10 point takes out the 18 point model by using the support it got from the 8 points.

>>51400005
Not every Warcaster has synergy you dumb fuck. Try one-rounding anything with a heavy while playing Old Witch or something.

>>51400091
The 10 point model can do it either with a 4 point choir or a 5 point solo. Or with any caster buff.

>>51400123
A juggernaut with 3 focus can one-round arm 18 heavies with 0 buffs.

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Daily Reminder that Una2 will not face significant changes and you need to learn to counterplay.

>>51400123
Why would you play a caster that doesn't let your heavies one round their heavies?

>>51399908
A Bronzeback gets 7 attacks with out frenzying that's a crusader and a half.

>>51400175
And? It's not like it has 2 inch reach.

>>51400167
Not Everyone plays the same caster.

Why don't you just molik missile my caster turn two.

>>51399958
Whine some more about def 10
its still a negligible chance my entire faction is def 10 on the heavys.

>>51400210
Neither does the crusader. They both have 1" reach
Bronzeback has more speed buffs, but they are both mat 6.

>>51400236
You're saying it can kill a crusader and a half. Without reach it's likely that will just be overkill, there's not likely to be much in its 1 inch range.

>>51400221
>Why don't you just molik missile my caster turn two
Because Molik Karn 1) can no longer sidestep past models with immunity to free strikes, 2) can't bounce even further with a lack of Mk2 beatback, and 3) is only fury 4 now.

>>51400152
A Juggernaut with 3 Focus will rarely have a) 3 Focus due to a charge or b) a cortex/arm left to swing with if the enemy is too close

Unless you can get a free charge, A Juggernaut will not arrive combat with 3 Focus, due to how buttfucking slow it is. Unless the opponent already munched on you, in which case you probably lost your cortex or an arm if you're still standing.

It's almost as if there's some kind of balance involved...

>>51400306
Old Witch gives her battlegroup apparition, which does a lot to speed that juggernaut up.

>>51400349
And yet doesn't allow it to charge freely. Or buff it's damage output in any way. Or give it 2" range.

>>51400382
By turn 2 the juggernaut has gained 4 inches. 6 inches by turn 3. It's a nice speed bump.

>>51400414
Literally everything can out-threaten 10" charges.

Which is the point of Khador, you're supposed to take their assault and hit them back harder. (unless you play something weird, like Strakhov)

>>51400382
Hence why no one plays Old Witch.

>>51400530
That's some shit taste. Almot all of the good Khador lists can nearly double their 'jacks speed and give pathfinder or other useful abilities

>>51400548
There are plenty of casters who don't piece trade Jacks very well, even in Khador.

A Juggernaut under Irusk 2 will never take out another Heavy at full health and he is still played widely.

>>51399883
Just fuck my gators up. I mean Rask is getting banned every round anyway, but now my core is shot. I'd pick up pigs if alliance would carry them for once.

>>51400568
If by "all" you mean "two", then yes, you are right.

>>51400599
Irusk2 WAS widely played prior to the Wurmwood nerf. Even then it's not like people were spamming Juggernauts with him.

I assume that as the conversation has so easily been dragged onto Khador, that you've conceded the point that Bronzebacks are a shadow of their former selves?

>>51400634
I never cared about that, since I'm a different anon.

The point I brought up is that the reason why Warbeasts cost more than Warjacks is because of the healing rule. A Warjack that doesn't get one-rounded succesfully is usually heavily hindered in it's role to get anything done on the next turn, while a crippled warbeast is just healed from 12" away and able to fuck something up at maximum efficiency immediately afterwards.

If you Hordesfags want your shit to get cheaper, you have to trade the healing rule for it.

>>51400757
>is because of the healing rule
except this is wrong

>>51400757
A warbeast that's on 6 boxes with all aspects running will kill a heavy then die to a stiff breeze. This means that because warbeasts are so expensive, if a warjack gets the first hit in, the Hordes player has lost. Just straight up. Which is extra retarded considering the amount of Mobility there is in Warmachine.

>>51400757
Also a fury 5 bb has 8 attacks available to it. A Warjack has both less initials and a much reduced ability to buy more attacks. Bearing in mind that Warmachine factions typically have less ability to get free charges, so the average jack has 4 attacks available to it.

>>51400780
And that stiff breeze still has to come from somewhere, since the opponent cannot afford that beast to surive ANOTHER turn. Meaning a second resource has to be dedicated to the cause.

Where as the Warjack which is robbed of it's movement, cortext and primary arm just stands around and does fucking nothing. You can effectively ignore it for the rest of the game in favor of more valuable targets until you have to be bothered to remove it from your zone.

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>>51400757
>adds an additional spell to the warlock's list
>able to run a beast at max Fury on demand
>benefits from numerous control range extenders
>able to be fury-managed and healed by numerous supports
>acts as effective extra health boxes for the warlock

But yes, being able to have your warlock heal it is why it costs so many more points than a warjack.

A bronzeback is overkill. Unless I thought that I needed something to kill a colossal with by itself, it's just not worth its points. I'd much rather take a gladiator or a soldier. You're not getting extra value for the extra points in a practical sense.

>>51400959
Oh wow, an additional spell! And what a mighty spell Puissance is!

>>51400959
Warmachine has control range extenders, focus boosters, and repairers too. It's not like there's a lot of beasts with long leash. Razor worm, archidon, that one griffon, isn't that about it? Maybe a legion beast? And I can't think of anything in hordes with a squire-style control range buff.

>>51400987
Primal. Your turn!

>>51401045
Druid Wilder, Nyss Shepherds, etc.

>>51401071
Nyss shepherds do not extend control range. They, like willbreakers, allow forcing outside of control range, but do not allow for leaching or transferring like the druid wilder does.

>>51401045
And once you pay for those things, you approach the cost of a Warbeast. Wow, it's almost as if PP balanced this game around numbers somehow.

>>51401242
Wow, it's almost as if you're not counting the cost of hordes support but are counting the cost of warmachine support.

>>51401365
Feral Warpwolf - 18pts
- Extra spell
- Three stat-changing warps
- Force to regenerate

Crusader - 10pts
- 3pts Vassal of Menoth (Extra "spell")
- 4pts Choir of Menoth (Three stat-changing "warps")
- 1pt Vassal Mechanik (Force to regenerate)

R L Y M A K E S U T H I N K

>>51401410
Last I checked, a choir of menoth is 4 models that can do things to 4 different jacks instead of 1 jack absorbing the whole cost.

R L Y M A K E S U T H I N K

>>51401464
Last I checked the warps were better than the choir buff. It is like it all balances out or something :^)

>>51401548
Okay, lets check that.

+2 str: Essentially the same as battle buff
+2 SPD: Good, doesn't have a comparison
+2 ARM: Still puts its armor lower than that of the crusader, while the crusader can just be straight up immune to non-magic shooting or immune to spells.

I wouldn't call warping better.

>>51401620
Okay, let's check you.

>extra initial attack
>extra open fist
>extra base speed
>extra defense (on top of getting close with armor warp)
>extra MAT

I'm sure somewhere in there it makes up a few extra points if you cut the Choir's value to 1pt per jack.

>>51401548
>>51401620
So, not that I'm very good at balance math nor do I care to be, but why compare the cheap budget heavy of one faction with one of the workhorse ones of a different faction? I know the crusader is seeing plenty of use, but it's still not the comparsion PP would be trying to make while balancing right?

>>51401686
It's not, but, I chose that comparison because it made it nice and neat to illustrate the "worth" of points and solos compared to a roughly equivalent warbeast that has those innately.

Of course, autists love to nitpick the details.

>>51401685
Extra initial attack at a much lower P+S, sure.

Crusader with 3 focus and battle buff does 41 damage to arm 18. Assuming the feral leaves 1 open for transfers and warps strength, it does 35 to arm 18. If it doesn't leave one open for transfers, it does the same 41 damage, while costing significantly more, and losing out on one of the main advantages of beasts which is transfers. The warlock then needs to leech all that fury unless you want it to frenzy. But since you gave the crusader a vassal as part of its cost, all it takes is a 1 focus investment from the caster to hit 3.

You could have the caster put primal on the warpwolf, but there are more buffs in menoth on the casters themselves so that averages out.

>>51401830
Oh, and since the feral relies on quantity rather than quality of attacks, it suffers more from armor.

Crusader does 31 to arm 20. Feral does 23 if it spends 3 fury, or 27 if it uses all 4.

>>51401714
>>51401830
my point exactly

>>51401922
"nitpicking details" meaning "someone is disagreeing with me, better call him an autist"

>>51401958
You're not disagreeing, you're nitpicking like an autist would.

The point was, is that there is a rough comparison between warjacks+support and warbeasts in terms of point cost. You've decided that if there are minute differences the comparison falls flat. Everyone who has played this game at least once knows that 1 point here does not equal 1 point there.

>>51401986
It's not 1 point. It's a difference of at least 3 points if you're giving it a dedicated vassal for some reason and counting the choir. And I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a warpwolf's regeneration, so the vassal mechanik shouldn't be there either since I wouldn't repair a crusader.

So it's really comparing 14 points to 18, and the 14 points is doing as much or more damage with higher armor and with more boxes.

>>51402024
>1 point here does not equal 1 point there.
>It's not 1 point.
Do you even fucking read posts? That's not what was being said.

>>51402068
He was just fucking literally trying to make an argument that the points are equivalent. That was literally his argument. Bringing up point costs and going "hurr durr this 18 point warpwolf and this 10 point jack with 8 points of support are the same"

The entire fucking argument is meaningless unless he's arguing that the points are equivalent. If they're not then even attempting to equate them by breaking down support costs is beyond retarded.

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>>51402123

>>51402149
>Someone disagrees with me, must be autistic because I am infallible

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>>51402175
better greentext some more, i think you're close to winning

>>51402209
I'm sorry that your views on game balance are wrong. You clearly are having far too much butthurt about it. Seek help.

ITT: Autist's argument gets picked apart and he resorts to calling other people autists.

>>51402243
Everyone who plays this game is an autist, when things boil down to precise measurements of distances, and computing averages in your head.

>>51402294
That's basic math, dude.

>>51395969
I keep thinking about kossites with Sorscha 1. Fog of war turns on their stealth and making dudes stationary helps their garbage attack stat.

>>51402294
Speak for yourself bro, my day job is math teacher, I use averages and probability on the regular.

>>51402325
spend some time in the english department because your grammar sucks

>>51402321
I was thinking vlad1. S&P would go a long ways towards letting them hit and do damage. Question is how reliably they'll be in his control area.

Playing Protectorate in a league, moving up to 50 points next. Been using Reznik and it's been really iffy, and now I'm not sure what to run here. I've got two lists I'm fiddling with:

Reznik 1
-Heirophant (need to purchase)
-Crusader
-Castigator
-Dervish
-Revenger
-Repenter
Max Choir
Min Errants
Knights Exemplar
Vassal Mechanik
2 Wracks

Or

Harby
-Heirophant
-Crusader
-Castigator
-Revenger
Min Choir
Vassal Mechanik
Knights Exemplar
Knights Exemplar Seneschal
Max Errants + UA

Any advice? Also got Vengers, a Scourge and Reckoner kit I could put together, Daughters, a Redeemer, the Covenant and maybe another Heavy jack kit to work with.

>>51402357
Yeah, nah, you can suck a fat one. I have to censor myself all day, when I'm on the internet at night I'll be a shitter as much or as little as I damn well please.

Back on topic: how do Grotesque Banshees preform? Any casters they really shine with?

>>51402420
>telling people to suck a dick as a derogatory remark
That's not very progressive and is gay-bashing. I'm reporting you to PP.

>>51399021

I have killed many players AD forces with Gunny and Dozer. Snipe + Lucky Shot + Trample surprises the hell out of people.

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I need some help fellas. I'm looking for good scenic bases that would match Rhulic armies.

I've seen Scibors dwarf bases...but those don't really match Rhulic forces in Iron Kingdoms.

Any ideas/links? Money isn't an object.

>>51399883
>Like say you require the lists to be no more than 66% similar, then in a 75 point game you can't have more than 50 points match either of your other two lists.
Biggest issue with this is enforcement. TO generally has enough to worry about without having to go over every list with a fine toothed comb. A rule that requires the TO to calculate percentages of similarity between lists sounds like a nightmare.

Part of the beauty of a 3 list / ban 1 format is that it's self regulating.

>>51403056
Checking similar points between lists would be crazy easy to program though, simply requiring digital submission could do all the point checking for you.

>>51401885
>Oh, and since the feral relies on quantity rather than quality of attacks, it suffers more from armor.
>Crusader does 31 to arm 20. Feral does 23 if it spends 3 fury, or 27 if it uses all 4.
True enough, and that's mostly the case across the spectrum. Jacks have higher P+S, beasts have more initials. Worth pointing out though, that while beasts do suffer more against armor, they also benefit more from buffs. Classic example being our friend the Bronzeback getting enraged and a +2 STR from the caster, and then doing more damage on average dice than two fully loaded warjacks. 8 initials vs. 4, you essentially get twice the benefit from a damage buff.

>>51403179
BUT IT'S NOT BALANCED UNLESS IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME REEEEEEEEEEEE

>>51402997
I think one of the other resin base manufacturers... Coolmini, maybe, or Kromlech... was making bases with gears all over them. Could be what you're looking for.

>>51403176
Maybe so, maybe so... that's the kind of thing you really only get at bigger events though. Down at the local shop, where you'd actually see an unofficial format like this, it's still all handwritten lists and people walking in at the last minute and so on. The percentage thing just feels forced. Honestly, I'd rather bring back character restrictions if I thought people bringing too many of the same list would be a problem and it needed some shake up (and I'm not even convinced it WOULD be a problem).

>>51403206
>BUT IT'S NOT BALANCED UNLESS IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME REEEEEEEEEEEE
Yeah, nevermind, you're right. They should really make all the factions the same and just re-skin the units, like Warcraft. Then it could finally be balanced.

>>51403179
That's fair, but warmachine has more buffs than hordes.

>>51403368
Once these new-age MOBA/MMO players understand that, yes, different factions with different mechanics will not be technically "balanced" point for point, so much of the game's bitching will die out.

Just fuck the models. Buy a bag of bases, assign them equal stats, and roll D6s. That's the True Test of Skill™

any NQ links yet?

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>every month PP will develop a game for No Quarter Games
>instead of fixing their broken flagship

>>51404105
It's hungerford making these games, and he's not a warmachine developer. He's just the organized play guy, he does the leagues and steamroller packet.

>>51404232
>It's hungerford making these games

He's being shown the front door......

>>51404254
???

does anyone actually give an honest to god shit about Grind, Colossal Wrestling, or whatever stupid thing they put out?

>>51404301
I play bloodbowl and my group is starting a grind league.

Also very interested in colossal wrestling.

Turns out not everyone has to limit themselves to SUPER SERIOUS WARGAMING

>>51404333
>Turns out not everyone has to limit themselves to SUPER SERIOUS WARGAMING
hey HEY don't make fun of my serious war battle game featuring big smashy robots with tiny tiny legs, it is serious business.

>>51404333
I'm just more interested in playing SUPER SERIOUS WARGAME than HALF-BAKED NOVELTY SPINOFF

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>mfw finally painting again after 4 years of not paint stuff
Feels good man
Too bad I'm not that good of a painter ;_;
How the FUCK do they get the glowy effect on Trollblood runes

>>51404466
Then do so. The creation of these sidegames do nothing to stop you.

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>>51404514
try this maybe?

>>51402294
>Implying I know what I'm doing and don't just shove my plastic figures towards the closest opposing plastic figure.

>>51405195
premeasurin's fer casuls

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Talk me out of buying this big stupid pretty bird.

>>51405259
Why should we? It's a beautiful model to paint.

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>>51405283
Does it suffer from Hydra Hookitis? Or is it pretty good all around?

>>51404301
>Colossal Wrestling, or whatever stupid thing they put out?

That game is solely being made because sales of the Colossals and Gargantuans aren't very good and have been dropping.

Since most of them are still made in-house it's very expensive for them to be produced. PP want to get them sent to China so they can be made in plastic (for the Collossals and Battle Engines, and Restic for the Gargantuans) so they need more money to get the tools made, which they don't have.

>>51404279
>???

Apparently he rubbed someone the wrong way and they want him gone.

>>51405529
If the rules were even remotely decent I'd buy 2 Raptors. But they barely get to par with one or two of our casters; 2 warpwolves > 1 raptor, and it's only a novelty showpiece

>>51405543
source?

>>51405543
Hungerford is the only person on their staff that is remotely capable of talking to the public.

>>51391667

Cryx looks to be in a better place than people seem to think.

They just have to run their shit differently than they did before.

Can't just spam Banes, Satyxis and McThralls with recursion and expect to overwhelm the enemy. Ya'll need jacks and guns now.

Of course, Cryx could use some stuff. I wish they would get some more Pirate support solos like Mercs have. If they let the Stitch Thrall make Brute Thralls it would be sweet as well. Overall though, I do think Cryx has more game than they are willing to admit.

Also, for what it's worth, I like that someone used Carrion Thralls to good effect.

>>51405561
>source?

Other PP staff, and no I'm not telling you who.

>>51405568
>Hungerford is the only person on their staff that is remotely capable of talking to the public

Yeah, but someone else want's his job so there's some politicking/conniving going on.

>>51405628
You're not telling because you're full of shit. Why do we always get "I know PP personally!" roleplayers in these threads?

>>51405652
>Why do we always get "I know PP personally!" roleplayers in these threads?

Maybe because most of them are started by PP staff and more PP staff post in them in order to promote their own product.

It's on old marketing gimmick, you should know that by now.

Also, why are there so many posters like you that seem to think PP can do no wrong?

>>51402317

If you know math, you're Autistic.

Welcome to American views on education.

>>51405674
First of all, I've started 5 out of the last 10 threads. I don't work for PP. I voted for Trump. They won't hire me. :^)

Second of all, PP doesn't need to market on a chinese picture board. The culture at PP looks down on websites like this because they don't promote their safe-space brand of thinking.

Third, every thread without fail has someone who has some secret dirt on the going-ons at Privateer Press, or is someone who personally plays with the hired playtesters, or claims they were down at the PP office hanging out. 100% of these claims are unverified, false, and always are unable to provide proof, despite there being numerous ways to confirm what they're claiming without revealing themselves.

So yes, you know of a "secret feud between Hungerford" and someone else, while I was having lunch with Will Pastrami the other day up here in Seattle.

>>51405736
>while I was having lunch with Will Pastrami the other day up here in Seattle.

proof needed, knowing full well you set this up.

Also, PP staff do post in these threads regularly (I was one of them).

>>51405767
>proof needed
its called sarcasm buddy

>PP staff do post in these threads regularly (I was one of them).
Sure you were.

new PP shill thread
>>51405800

new PP shill thread
>>51405800

>>51395093
>CoC, minions and mercs
Youd need a cart

>>51405529
Probably also because the forums have been screaming for it.

>>51405568
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Pagani had a really good interview recently.

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>>51405942
The forums are known to be goldfish memers.

All this Grind (((hype))) is proving it.