Warmachine / Hordes General - /wmhg/

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>>51333732
This world lacks Warmalewds.

>>51333786
>Only female character in Skorne is Makeda who looks like a hag
pls no

Did they start uploading the army cards online? I remember hearing they were gonna change to that

>>51334347
After Lock and Load unless your card got an errata.

>>51333732
What booty?

>>51334019
The titan cannoneers are female

>>51334655
>characters

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>>51334647
dis booty

>>51334863
Is that what Irishmen consider booty nowadays?

>>51335476
Better than the cellulite inflated cottage cheese farms wrapped in a plastic bag that most 'groids and 'groid media brainwashed mongoloids prefer.

>>51335537

Sounds like jealousy to me bro.

>>51335537
Low test.

So who's the best caster in Skorne now: Rasheth, Makeda1, Zaadesh2, or Xerxis 1? Pls don't say Naaresh.

>>51335537
Nice strawman and nicer projection. Doesn't change the fact you like man ass

I guess Skorne errata killed WMHG. Now there's nothing really bad left to bitch about, and it's not like actual discussion ever happened here.

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>>51338389
Cryx players are the new Skorne. I'd love more discussion around here. Is the Eye of Truth worth putting in a Thyra or High Reclaimer list do you think?

>>51338417
This would also be taking him over Scourge, too.

>>51337504
It's damn hard to say. Makeda1 gets the most hype. Makeda2 was best before the errata and got buffed. Rasheth got a massive buff in every way and is probably our best straight-forward lock. Xerxis2 deserves special mention for making everything Sanic Fast and outthreating basically any non-Cryx jack spam. Zaadesh2 was good before and got a buff to everything he likes.

I don't know, I can't decide. And those are just the ones I have my eyes on.

>>51338417
EoT is just universally amazing.

I need help building my first Legion army, but I have virtually zero experience playing as or even against Legion, and reading the stats only gets me so far. So I have pretty much no idea which models to buy.

Here's a list of models I like the looks/abilites of:

Casters:
Saeryn2 & Rhyas2
Thagrosh1
Vayl2

Beasts:
Scythean
Typhon
Angelius
Neraph
Bloodseer
Protector
Raek
Zuriel

Units & Solos:
Raptors
Blackfrost Shard
Warspears
Sorceress & Hellion
Hellmouth
Anyssa Ryvaal

And of course the obligatory Shepherds/Forsaken, I suppose. I really dislike Striders for their looks, and Swordsmen for being bland as fuck despite their strength.

Now, how the fuck do I build a decent list out of those pieces? I usually like to play aggressively and go for assassinations, either via shenanigans/control or just plain punching through.

>>51338417
wow that is a gorgeous model

So my animantarax arrived yesterday

Meant to be a new Hordes faction in February, right? Do we know anything about it?

So I ordered a Cryx starter box. I played like two games of warmachine back in the first edition. I like the pirates of cryx, is it possible to do well with Skarre and some kind of satyxis/pirate list? From what I read, Cryx used to be overpowered, but now seem nerfed which is fine, balance comes and goes.

>>51338389
I have much to bitch about my trolls but I'm tired of this game and especially the company so I'm not that invested.

After speaking with people it's very painfully obvious that wm's success was despite PP's attempts not because of it.

I got other games now. I just don't have or have to care about the game anymore

>>51340585

So what wargames do you play where you love the company? Because I cannot think of a single game that gets discussed on /tg/ where the topic of conversation is "Oh man I love this company so much"

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In an attempt to revive the thread:
How to we fix trollbloods /wmhg/?

>>51340897
Revert most of their animi from being self/beast only, and give their dedicated support pieces a way to make up for their cost.

The latter is the biggest problem with trolls in my opinion. If I take 40 points of units and 20 points of support, I expect to have 60 points of effectiveness on the board, ideally, given how my army isn't self-sufficient, it'd be nice to even have as high as 70 points of effectiveness.

However, as it stands right now,in the above scenario, you'll end up with about 50 points of effectiveness, because a) our support models bring pretty much zero threat to the table on their own, and b) many if not most of our models' baseline is ever so slightly below par, so that the support doesn't bring them above par to make up for the points we lose in support pieces, but rather makes them finally perform up to par.

Basically, Trolls are built as a support and synergy faction, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but neither the workhorses nor the support pieces deliver on that promise.

given the fact that trolls are now arguably the worst faction in the game, would now be the best time to pick up a bunch of models secondhand? I've always loved the troll aesthetic, and I'm fine sitting on the models and waiting for them to be viable again

>>51341048
>Trolls are built as a support and synergy faction
Maybe in Mk2 but not anymore. They lost everything that supported this playstyle and gained nothing to compensate

>>51341213
That's what I'm talking about. They still have a huge amount of support pieces, but the whole math of the faction is off. The support has gotten too expensive and the models you're supposed to be buffing to a degree where they make up for your points spent on support can barely carry their own weight.

>>51340403
Skarre and satyxsis are pretty solid. Hard to go wrong with either skarre in my opinion, but I prefer skarre1

>>51340367
Not February, I am pretty sure its summer with locknload

>>51341514

Huh. Wonder where I got February from, then.

I mean, I play Warmachine myself (Go Retribution) and so does most of my local scene, so I can't see the new army having too much of an impact on me personally, but I guess it's neat.

>>51341048
>>51341213
>>51341275
Have PP said anything about the state of Trollbloods?

>>51341554
>>51341514
The faction is officially, for reals this time, going to be announced at Smogcon in February. The rules will be released on March for community play testing with the actual models will be prereleased at Lock N Load in July.

>>51341957
Only that they're listening to feedback and that there won't be anymore faction overhauls like the Skorne errata.

If you're lucky when new theme force books come out existing stuff might get looked at

Does anyone have the stat card for the Skorne battlebox caster? My buddy lost his.

>>51338503
The Angelius is great. Typhon is great, the Raek is fun as balls, and the Neraph is my personal favorite shenanigans warbeast. and the sorceress&hellion gets better with more flyers. Sccythean is a decent workhorse heavy though I prefer carniveans.

>>51342353
http://imgur.com/a/Sd9St

Hopefully that works anon

>>51340205
I'll play it with Morg2. Now if I heard that sentence a few months ago I'd call the guy insane.

>>51342515
Thanks mate
What app is that?

>>51342539
Warroom 2, the official PP app for warmachine/hordes. You can buy the decks on it and they auto update with all the stuff for whichever factions you buy

On the note of giving out cards, can someone give me the Winter Guard Artillery captain?

I can't run War Room on my Blackberry and the model hasn't released yet, so I have no actual way of checking what he does.

>>51340762
I have no love but I think ffg has done better job than ever expected with their star wars line given how poorly wiz kids handled trek in comparison.

It's really less love for companies but rather extreme bitterness against PP staff in general. I can't really think of other table top companies where frustrations can be directed at staffs by name as much as PP.

>>51342520
I was thinking hexy1 or hexy2 but morg2 is legit

Might be good to run with xerxis1 also, it's basically a heavy warbeast that he never has to worry about fury management with

>>51342725
He's a 3 cost solo with three special actions. Artillerist, or gives a weapon crew reposition 2, or Close Fire which does essentially nothing. It makes it so your weapon crew automatically misses friendly models, but that doesn't apply to blast damage so all it really does is make it so if you shoot an FFE'd field gun shot into a melee it can't miss and hit your own guys.

>>51342841
As a note, Clear might be future proofing for some kind of SP10 flamethrower or grapeshot weapon crew. As of now it does basically nothing.

>>51342873
It lets you not take friendly fire from aoes since aoes auto hit under the template but clear lets you auto miss

>>51342841
What does artillerist do?

Seems okay so far, but I don't think I want this guy when I'm running Field Guns.

>>51342898
AoEs don't work that way. If they did, stealth would also stop AoEs. Automatic miss, such as from stealth and from Clear! only works on direct hits, and aoe blast isn't a direct hit.

>>51342956
Target friendly faction model gains +2 RAT on its next AoE attack. If it misses, you can reroll the direction and/or distance.

Highly relevant because unlike the other abilities artillerist doesn't require a weapon crew, so he could target Victor for example.

>>51342979
Oh wow, that's actually pretty cool. Probably not for this list

Khador Army - 72 / 75 points
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand

(Irusk 2) Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27]
- Conquest [37]

Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0]

Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]

Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]

Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]

Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0]

Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0]

But he sounds pretty cool for my Broadside spam list. Can't wait for that model.

>>51342957
Stealth is targeting from origin from more than 5 inches away. Blast doesn't target and even if so the origin of the blast, the center would be less than 5 inches away

>>51343102
The origin of the blast is the firer. The only thing the center of the blast matters for is trenches and shields. Distance is measured from the firer.

Clear and AoEs do not interact.

>>51343091
Broadside spam advice:

Take two kapitans. Kapitan #1 uses artillerist, victor shoots as per its normal activation. Kapitan #2 uses artillerist, broadside is cast, and now the second mortar shot benefits from artillerist as well. Being able to reroll deviation is so fucking good on victor.

>>51343154
Page 53 on hordes pdf.
Center of blast damage is origin for blast damage. Only model directly hit counts the shooter as the origin of the damage.

Give me the exact wording on clear. I don't use warroom

>>51343247
Attack sequence, prime, page 90.

Step 4: Resolve effects that cause an attack to hit or miss automatically

Step 7: Resolve the AOE hit or deviation. All models within the AOE at its final position are now hit by it.

Step 8: Resolve all other effects triggered by hitting or missing.


Automatic miss from Clear! and Stealth happen before you even check if models are hit by the blast template or not. Automatic miss cannot apply to blast hits.

>>51343379
Huh, so the sequence trumps it. Weird.

Alrighty then

>>51343184
Sounds dope, I like it.

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>>51341048
>Basically, Trolls are built as a support and synergy faction, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but neither the workhorses nor the support pieces deliver on that promise

Convergence says welcome to the family

>>51342740
Any caster that can drop ARM makes the Animantarax insane. Hexxy1 has now become very strong become of this. Suddenly our low damage infantry can actually just kill heavies. Against a Circle heavies, he makes Nihilators need 5 to hit, then 3d6-2 each. Like damn son. The only problem is Hexxy1 is still too narrow. He still wants to be playing against Hordes armies spamming infantry.

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Are people enjoying mk3 yet? I've been away for about a year.

>>51344557
The difference is that Convergence isn't hardlocked into having to pick 20+ points of pure support just to get the rest of your models up to par.

>>51344896
Imho, what we lost:
>jank and shenanigans
>realism
What we got:
>no more casting after charge
>no more upkeep cycling
Shit tradeoff.

>"Hey, do you know Warmachine? It's a tabletop game about huge steampunk robots controlled by wizards beating the shit out of each other."
>'That sounds sweet, how many robots do I need?'
>"Oh, just one. Maybe two. Not more than that though, since you need to play all this infantry."

pre-mk3 was a great game.

>>51345698
>upkeep cycling
You can still do this you know.

A gamestore near me is closing down and selling everything for 75% off, including a bunch of warmachine/hordes kits. Is this game any good? I dig the aesthetic and I've heard it's based around small unit combat so I won't need to put in too much money to put together a relatively sizable army.

>>51344896
Yes and no.

The game is absolutely better than Mk2. There's been a couple hiccups, all centered around goofy Infernal rulings, but the core rules are much better.

The problem is internal balance for a lot of factions really sucks. Factions have a handful of good models and then a large pile of garbage pieces. The best factions right now, unsurprisingly, are the ones that have more good models and the worst factions are the ones that lack decent answers

>>51345970
Can we stop this meme? The game isnt better now. It was better with more power attacks, psychology, water and wreck markers, because it felt like controlling tiny soldiers in a tiny world. Now it is just putting your model next to the enemy model and checking who got the bigger numbers on their card, because they removed any and all strategy and tricks.

>>51346057
>more power attacks
Half the power attacks didn't get used, and if they did, rarely for their intended purpose. Because 9/10 times, just slapping an enemy with one more attack was better than stalling him with a weapon lock.

>psychology
Fear checks were cancer.

>water
I guess, although it was kind of a part of why jacks weren't used back then.

>wreck markers
I actually agree, I wish they came back.

But don't kid yourself, Warmahordes has always been about checking who got the bigger numbers. In the end all you did was play alpha strike chicken about whose weapon master infantry would charge first.

>>51346057
What's it like being so wrong?

>>51346057
Those "strategies" as you call them, were called loopholes.

Before the power attack changes, DEF was an utterly pointless stat to skew and removing them opened up more of the game than it closed (anti-DEF models/spells have an actual use now, wow).

Water and psychology added realism at the expensive of keeping things simple and were simply cut for being too niche to come up frequently enough (water) or added another layer of randomness into a streamlined game (psychology).

Premeasuring always existed because of control-range bullshit and low-focus caster finally lost one of the biggest disadvantage high focus casters had over them for no reason.

And wreck markers... Are you seriously expecting this game would've survived if everyone has to spent 10 additional bucks for every warjack in their army when the game changed to having bigger battlegroups? This shit is expensive enough as is.

And that last point is trash too. All that ARM and POW is no use to a Khador Juggernaut if it gets out-threatened by EVERYTHING else n the game.

>>51346139
Power attacks did matter. Taking away a shield would allow to crack open a jack. Hold Mulg club and he suddenly is way less scary. Handholding was hillarious and I wholeheartedly support such tactics-they make the game interesting. Fear checks were a big part of list building (ua, fearless, terror) and something to consider before commiting a unit, adding a layer of strategy. But most importantly they made the games more immersive and worth remembering. Water was fun because it gave a fluffy strategic advantage to amphibious models and slamming stuff into water required positioning and thought, again making it more interesting.

>>51345964
You 250, bro?

>>51346057
Can we stop this "dying game is bad" meme?

The game is fine without your le unique arm locks and knockdown in shallow water gimmicks

>>51346246
I actually like premeasuring and agree with you on that. I hope you do realise wreck markers were perfectly legal to proxy in games, right? Water and psychology were the ONLY immersion measures in the game. Without them it reached the apogeum of bland. And power attacks could have been addressed differently. Like being able to dodge throws easily for high def.

>>51346253
I play Warmachine ever since pre-colossal mk2 and I have never seen Water or powerlocks ever come up in a game.

90% of all players probably didn't even know rules for either of those things existed.

>>51346318
"You're allowed to prox!" Oh gee, what a fantastic solution.

Why am I not replacing my Battlegroup with empty bases that have names written on them too? The game doesn't change after all, since the rules are the same.

>>51346246
At best, and this is a big IF, the game itself is better. It's a better board game.

Unfortunately, I got into a miniatures game. Yes, the rules were more complex and there were a fuckton more options. That's good. That's fun. There should always be more strategies, and being able to have a "Surprise, asshole" move in your back pocket with crazy shit is fun.

Mark 3 is probably a more solid game. Unfortunately, it's come at the expense of the big, white buzzword in the room - Fun. 2/3 of every army is garbage because there's always an objectively better choice; In Cryx, it's Satyxis, for example, but every army has it's must-pick models. 2/3 warcasters never see the light of day because of the game's focus on competition and it's emphasis on making such good choices; Yeah, you could take some warcasters, but why would you? Why take pStryker when Striker 3 works better with the best parts of the army and has a much more focused game plan?

And the game's been heading this way for a while; Remember when you could arm-lock larger models, and there were warjacks specifically made to run up and lock the weapons of dangerous warjacks, weakening it for the rest of your army? They invalidated at least 4 light warjacks with open fists when they changed that ruling for Colossals. And just like they did then, they invalidate a unit every time they make a new one or print a new errata, instead of just making a halfway balanced game with fun rules that doesn't need to be played in a tryhard manner.

>>51346393
>there were warjacks specifically made to run up and lock the weapons of dangerous warjacks, weakening it for the rest of your army?

That was never what they were intended for and you damn well know it.

>>51335537
go fondle boys somewhere else.

>>51346315
Well the game is dying ...will take a a while thoigh.

What are you talking about, in mk2 we had the same amount of overpowered god-choices and underpowered trash as far as in-faction balance was concerned.

Think about mk2 Winter Guard Infantry vs Winter Guard Rifles or just mk2 Cygnar in general.

The same goes for casters. Have you ever seen anyone ATTEMPT to use Zerkova1 in a game?

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>>51346393
>my definition of fun is better than your definition of fun

For what its worth, there was probably a better way to fix arms locks and water effects, but over all, MK3 is better.

>>51346057
>It was better with more jank.
FTFY.

>psychology

lolno.

>water

Yes, because having a terrain type that was devastating to half the game but completely irrelevant to the other half was "better".

>wreck markers

I honestly forgot this was a change until mentioned.

>>51346561
The issue now is that it's hit egregious levels. The games are smaller so even slightly small power level difference are very apparent.

The other issue is that mkiii has made problems where there were none while not fixing existing issues.

No one was using throws as a reliable tool for consistent caster kills in the past because throws were unreliable. No one had issues charging knocked down models or flanking stationary models before.

This is on top of balance issues which still haven't addressed the garbo stuff of last edition while mucking around with things for "fluff" reasons.

Also the horrible PR after all that didn't help either

>>51346253
>Hold Mulg club and he suddenly is way less scary.

Horseshit.

Anything that had enough STR to reliably hold Mulg's club *and not have it broken on Mulg's next activation* was scary enough to just fucking kill Mulg to start with.

The core problem with it was that the ease of breaking out of locks (at least, on models scary enough that locking one of their weapons would be useful) made it so that it was essentially never a good play as opposed to just putting damage into the target.

>>51346488
>Well the game is dying ...will take a a while thoigh
That's what they said about GW for at least two decades.

>>51346488
>Well the game is dying ...will take a a while thoigh.

It's getting bigger in my meta. Your meta may just suck, probably because you're a part of it.

>>51346794
GW did have a steady decline until recently. While you can ignore the dead in a year naysayers, GW was effectively dying, on life support with licensing and massive fanbase they built over the decades.

PP hasn't done any of those. While the death isn't imminent, they do need to realize that they have bled now and more wounds will eventually be lethal

>>51346914
PP and GW survived the latest depression. Unless the new president crashes the world economy AGAIN I think both companies will be fine.
Barring any supreme ass fuckery.

>>51346998
>Unless the new president crashes the world economy AGAIN I think both companies will be fine.

So, they'll both be bankrupt within the year is what you're saying.

>>51346380
PP had cut out wreck markers in the back of the RB you plebs.
>>51346246

Why is Beast 09 21 points when Eye of Truth is 20?

>>51347539
Soles plays Menoth.

>>51347539
Because Protectorate needs something to make up for the brutal nerfing they received in the errata.

>>51347185
>Champagne socialist who doesn't understand how or why economies work

There was a good reason the US stock market boomed right after the election. In fact a lot of big-dick market speculators (Hillary donors, of course) lost truckloads of cash because they were operating under the assumption that she would win and the market would tank.

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Who would've thought that an errata would make you want to finish painting a model?

>Inb4 "How to photo a mini.jpg"

>>51347969
Clean your fucking keyboard

>>51348116
Suck my dick.

>>51348127
You probably don't clean that either.

>>51348148
Why would I when your sister does it for me.

>>51347956
>There was a good reason the US stock market boomed right after the election.

Because the stock of businesses that were linked to people Trump was putting on his cabinet started selling like hotcakes under the assumption that they would do really well in the coming years what with having a bunch of people in high ranking government positions pursuing policies that would presumably help said companies regardless of their benefit to the economy or country as a whole.

What kind of terrain do you use? Self-built? Premade and bought?
Do you use big setpieces for terrain with different elevation levels and such? Do you use the hazards (burning forest) or the timed terrain (smoke clouds)?

We've been using a big lake (shallow water) with a bridge in the middle and it's really good at dividing zones and such, but it feels that it hampers non-pathfinder dudes just a bit too much

>>51341183

I'll sell you mine. 300 clams.

>>51348973
what all do you have?

>>51348992

>Warlocks:
Doomie3
Madrak 2
Ragnor
Horgle2

>Beasts:
Axer
Bouncer
Mauler
Earthborn Dire Troll
Pyre
Mountain King

>Solos:
Janissa
Fell Caller Hero
Runebearer

>Units:
Northkin Fire Eaters
Northkin Fire Eaters
Champions
Warders
Warders
Krielstone Bearer+UA

I'm negotiable on price desu.

>>51349102
you got some way for me to contact you, skype or an email or something? I'm broker than a joker right now, but I'll have some funds soonish and I'll be able to talk shop then

>>51349208

Sure thing, chief. You can get in touch with me at [email protected].

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Time for troll tears now that Skorne's been fixed, I guess, even though they're well balanced now and still placing regularly in tournies.
But oh no, no more weapon master infantry with arm 24 def 14. They're just completely unplayable now that they don't get as much free shit as they used to.
What a shame.

>>51350078
>still placing regularly in tournies.
People need to stop parroting this shit as if it's an example of good balance.

Balance is both external and internal. Just because trolls can place with 2 lists over and over again doesn't mean that the faction is in a good place, it means the opposite, it means that there's a crutch and power disparity is too strong internally for list diversity to come out.

>>51335537
>Called Irish
>retaliate by confirming Irish heritage.
I don't understand the point of your post.

>>51350078
Hey, I recognize this. This is a shitpost. :D

To be fair, their weapon masters aren't exactly Bane Warriors in terms of value. or Nhilators.
Trollkin champs even manage to seem worse than Exemplar Cinerators from the outside looking in.

Also, is it just me or does the Krielstone suck? It seems like a ton of points for what you are getting. I understand it is "THE" big troll unit, sort of like Choir for protectorate, but it just doesn't seem as good. They have other support pieces don't they? Even whelps seem better for fury management.

>>51350237
>Balance is both external and internal.

Yeah, strangely, Cygnar is as good as anyone, but has basically one list that they swap casters.

>>51350273
>Also, is it just me or does the Krielstone suck?

Are you fucking trolling me?

The problem with the Krielstone is not that it's not good enough, it's that it's so good it's *necessary*, and everything else in Trolls assumes one is always present.

>>51350078
So how many times have Trolls kicked you in the dick?

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>>51350273
well, whelps ARE better than krielstone for fury management considering that whelps do something while krielstone does no fury management.

>>51333786
Shit man, I've seen as much fuckin Farrow smut as goddamn normal smut, there's just not enough appreciation for the human/elf gals.

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>>51351914
>farrow
>smut

>>51352208
Pig orcs I guess?

>>51350273
>or does the Krielstone suck
12/20 is a really good heavy stat line. And that is before caster buffs.
Krielstone scribes are also crazy hard to kill, considering they are support models.

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>>51352304
>Krielstone scribes are also crazy hard to kill
>12/15
>Hard to kill

>>51352318
Are you forgetting tough, immunity to continous effects and the fact that they are sitting behind a horde of other tough models?

And are you sure you are comparing them to other support models like mechanics, beast handlers, choir or even stones? Because the comparison seems pretty favorable for the trolls.

>>51352404
Not that anon, but it's important to note that no other support unit requires directly spending your warnoun's primary resource just to be able to use it.

>>51352404
tough is trivial to remove now since it's just double tapping now. The screen is also the same as well.

Actually try to play the krielstone and try to get their auras on the front line model. without also completely blocking yourself in the future turns. Krielstone is very vulnerable this edition and the cost has increased as well.

There's also the fact that once the unit leader actually dies the aura is gone for the turn.

finally they are medium based. even among the sea of medium bases, getting los to them is not that difficult as you think.

Actually finally, since infantry damage buff is gone from the faction, +1 str will see more play than before meaning that krielstone will be burning just fine.

>>51352570
But its a bank so if all your beasts die you still have fury :^)

>>51352404
OK, so clearly you have no idea how to play against trolls.

Consider apply things like elctro leaps, Widow Makers, death stalkers, and other sniper models. Just shoot the leader model and you're opponent will either be forced to let the aura drop or use self sacrifice and remove a grunt from the unit.

This is not hard to do and you should have some these models in at least one of your lists.

>>51352802
All those things are better at killing most other support models. Kirelstones are better protected against common support killers like blast damage and electro leaps than most support, which is my point.
>or use self sacrifice and remove a grunt from the unit.
You see if he does this then I've accomplished pretty much nothing.

>>51352871
aura size decreases with each casualty. With no tough option, you should be able to shave at least 2-3 inches off the aura size.

It's a big deal

>>51343091
Why max infantry and no max rifle?

>>51353003
Presumably because the extra infantry with grapeshot add a lot to the package, but the extra riflemen shooting their pow 10s don't add a lot

>>51343091
Here's how I would do this:


Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand

(Irusk 2) Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27]
- Conquest [37]
Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0]
Winter Guard Gun Carriage [18]
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan [3]
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0]
Battle Mechaniks (max) [5]

I appreciate the mass rockets plan, but I think it's dumb to own 3 copies of the same unit and 12 rocketeers. It's not a good investment for the future.

>>51350515
>>51350982
This is what I get not having actual cards.

I like to imagine what a troll army might look like when I actually have a job.

10 points for +2 armor sounded a little steep. But I freely admit my grasp of what is "good" is tenuous at best.

I imagine they'd combine well with kriel warriors as an anvil to pin the enemy lynchpins against, but I figure if that was any good, people would do that instead of bitching about how weak trolls are.

>>51352871
>Kirelstones are better protected against common support killers
Not really? Like, at all? Blasts kill them pretty dead and sniper models are fantastic into trolls. Elctro leaps ignore self sacrifice and are pretty brutal for Trolls.

I think you just need to git gud anon

>>51352596
>Actually try to play the krielstone and try to get their auras on the front line model. without also completely blocking yourself in the future turns.
Troll players around here don't have a problem with that. Maybe it's just you.

>>51353867
>Blasts kill them pretty dead and sniper models are fantastic into trolls.
Blasts usually need 8s to 10s to kill them BEFORE they activate their aura. And if enemy snipers can get shots on your stone you need to git gud.

How to lift trolls to the big kids level without creating a lot of work for PP:
>a) ban krielstone, every model gets +2ARM and +1POW on each weapon
>or b) every models gets a 10% discount, rounded up (the discount, not the cost)

What are the chances that we will ever get a retribution of scyrah bondless jack or character unit?

>>51354581
Character unit is probably a matter of time, bondless character jack not something I'd expect.

>>51354393
Fucking no. Every faction has support and trolls are no different. The Krielstone is fine.

Here's how you fix Trolls:
1) Take one of their bad models/units.
2) Improve it.
3) Repeat.

You know, like they did with Sluggers?

But I guess some people won't be satisfied until they get to dominate every game without using any form of tactics.

>>51354095
If they don't see that as part of their turn planning, I assure you that they are bad. krielstone needs to be mid line, but it's also most vulnerable there. If the list is infantry heavy enough for this to be an actual issue then the screen is also very weak as well.

>>51354125
it's not matter of getting gud. snipers have high rat so def 12 is a joke. it ignores tough so it's just 1 model death away from getting los. a unit of widowmakers or 2 deathstalkers alone should be able to get to the krielstone. It really isn't that hard unless the opponent went full defense mode with warders (the problem being is that warders are slow as balls so krielstone tends to drag if doing this)

>>51354393
>not a lot of work
>let's errata EVERY CARD

Animi fixes and krielstone cost would need to be the primary focus. since slag is completely fucking out of a job now, some kind of infantry damage buff animus would be very nice. I kinda want single target dark shroud as the animi. Make it non-warlock so the pyre still has a purpose for beatstick casters.

>>51354651
Yeah, or they waste the damn errata like what they did with the night troll. Woo, mat 6. Yeah, THIS is what was wrong with the thing, improved mat on a beast that still doesn't have a clear goal and would still want to boost to hit to fish for the paralysis crit.

Also way to fucking strawman.

>>51354651
Trolls dont have much access to tactics now that they lost animi and power attacks against own models. And the issue is that, yes, support models are important when they come at one cost, not four. Trolls are made with krielstone in mind, akin to choir. Fine. Except that, to account fro that, their models are subpar without it (so it is mandatory), are overcosted to account for what they theoretically could do when buffed (which would be fine if not for the other points), the support models themselves are overpriced (on top of other models), and the stone is very unreliable (hogs fury, fucks you over if you arent going first, dies to two electroleaps). Choose one disadvantage, remove remaining three and trolls will no longer suck.

>>51354735
>>51354727
>>51354709
Wow, you are terrible. Cry more, maybe PP will hand you free wins.

>>51354741
here's a (you) for your troubles.

>>51354741
>t. Ret player
I dont want free wins. I want my battles to be even, not uphill because I field 25 effective points less than anyone else and losing one beast, unit or support piece to shooting or an alpha strike means game over because I have nothing else to compensate. And with def 12 and speed 5 on most models it will happen.

>>51354782
>25 points support
Let me guess, you also consider junior+firefly 12p of support, do you?

>>51354796
Junior yes, firefly is just filler

>>51354804
What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? Are you saying people take him ans an 8 point filler?

>>51354822
firefly is just filler

>>51354827
Fillerfly

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>everyone is crying about Una2 on the PP forums

God damn I'm sick and tired of crybabies bitching about Una2. For one, its the Scarsfell's fault, not hers. All this "le I can't do anything fun at my FLGS (((tournament))) because muh Una" garbage.

Faggots who bitch about Una2 need to git gud. They're fucking LIGHT Warbeasts, with low ARM. GIT GUD.

>>51355017
She's really easy for some factions to deal with and really hard for others. But it's probably the Scarsfell that needs to be changed, that's true.

>>51355017
>that feel when ya boi Bradigus is shit now
>that feel when you played him out of his broken theme force in MK2 and simply enjoy his "baldur, but no a huge faggot" character

>>51355127
He will have his comeback, I'm certain. But I'm equally certain it will be quite different from his Mk2 incarnation. He's just waiting for Wolds to get good again and some of them are already there. Wasn't there also going to be a Wold Theme in the forseeable future?

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>>51355041
It's absolutely the Scarsfell. There's a reason 10 out of every 10 griffons in an Una2 list are Scarsfells. The people using Rotterhorns are "muh infantry clearing" memelords and people using Razorwings are just bad. Even the fucking Shrike is better at being less bad than the Razorwing.

Drop an initial from the Scarsfell. Lower its STR by 1. Or increase the PC by 1. And maybe make the other griffons worth a flying fuck.

>>51355151
Let's hope it doesn't get mad Dogged. I like 2na visually and hope she stays part of the game, but the Angry Birds list as it currently is just needs to go.

>>51355127
>tfw you enjoyed ruckspam
I just like very high health and high ststs elite forces in general.

>Khador MoW block and meme jack spam
>and same on coc

I dont care its redundant. I will have my huge HP elite models.

>>51355173
There's nothing really TO Mad Dog. I think the most Mad Doggy change it could get is changing Stealth to Prowl, but that would break what the unit's theme is about. Stealth is easy to counter anyways. Long Leash is another iconic trait. Aside from those two things, there isn't anything else to change.

It's just that the other two Griffons are SO BAD that there's no justifiable reason to take them.

>>51355204
It's really hard to say what should change with the griffons. Their damage output with Flank and Primal is so ridiculous and that's without Hand of Fate, which just turns it up to 12. I'm not sure it's possible to balance that without making the birds useless with any other caster.

Getting back to 2na, I think she is also part of the issue. She has the kind of feat that really shouldn't exist in the game anymore. Even Haley2 doesn't have a 100% Time Walk.

>>51354796
There's a difference. Most Cygnar lists can work completely fine without those models. Both Jr and Firefly bring a bonus to the army, plus the Firefly is a solid light on its own.

With trolls, your support isn't a bonus, it's mandatory.

>>51355475
That's some weapons-grade bullshit right there. Cygnar giving 1 model/unit +3ARM is a bonus but Trolls giving their army +2ARM is mandatory?

>>51355277
Una2's feat only works with literally 3 models. It is nowhere near Haley's time walk and it is stupid to make such a comparison.

>>51355553
It works with all the models she needs and synergizes incredibly well with. Sure it doesn't work on Woldstalkers, but who gives a shit?

>>51355514
Yes, because cygar models arent overpriced and understatted to account for possibility of getting bonus arm.

>>51355905
That means it's no different from the other specialized feats out there.

It's easily countered too. Just don't melee the birds. :^)

>>51355911
Have you actually read the Cygnar cards? Please do it now so you can contribute to this discussion with a bit more insight.

>>51355943
The Krielstone sets you back up to 9 points and delivers its bonus in a limited aura that gets smaller with every grunt lost and completely disappears for a round if the unit leader dies and can't sacrifice someone.

This means the stone has to move with your frontline to deliver its benefits, but is harder to screen than, say, the Choir, and doesn't have the stats of a model you want to keep this close to your front.

The Junior costs 4 points, can upkeep it anywhere from anywhere, meaning he can safely hide all the way in the back, so unless you want to feed his jack focus, he's never in danger of actually dying.

So basically, you're paying a good chunk of points for a squishy unit that you need to move with the rest of your army and which quickly gets a lot worse as it loses even a few models for a decent but not great benefit (compare to the benefits the Choir provides).

Is warmahordes the second most popular miniature wargame that uses units?

>>51356211
Other than Gw, what else comes to mind? So I guess yes, it is.

>>51356211
Pretty much. Infinity and Malifaux are too niche.

>>51356283
They dont use units.

>>51352596
>Actually finally, since infantry damage buff is gone from the faction, +1 str will see more play than before meaning that krielstone will be burning just fine.

If there's a significant possibility of the Krielstone burning and you still take +1 STR, it's the player, not the unit that's at fault.

>>51352596
Fellow troll player here. If your Krielstone is burning to death while you have the UA, you are bad at trolls.

>>51357394
>you can chose between your infantry not struggling against cheap lights and saving a unit with no combat potential because of muh design space
>somehow it is just because you need to git gud
Clearly a khador player.

>>51355017
Any good cry threads? Just went to a large FLGS tournament this weekend and there were three Una2s.

>>51355151
At least put the right Griffon in the meme.

>>51355151
The Scarsfell is terrible without Una2, but with her it's a perfect storm.

I think removing Long Leash fixes most of the problem, honestly. That's what allows Una to give it a huge threat envelope and still keep them safe from melee prior to feat turn -- being able to run them along both board edges. Take that away, and make her get close to the griffons she pushes behind the enemy caster on the feat-run-assassinate-next-turn trick so she's at least somewhat vulnerable to counter-assassination, and I think she's still really strong but a lot less bullshit.

>>51357578
Or switch Flank and Sprint so Sprint is in Control and Flank in Command.

Replace Flank with Gang?

>>51357644
That would also help.

>>51357473
See >>51357434

Actually I'm a Protectorate player, so I'm particularly sensitive to it, and none of the Troll players in my meta are stupid enough to let me burn their Krielstone to death.

They're also not salty about Trolls at all, but they're not retarded like you seem to be.

>>51357700
Saying allowing the Krielstone to burn to death if you have the UA is "retarded"?

Okay, chum.

>>51357598
That probably kills Una2. Which is fine if that's the point.

>>51357644
That, I think, would make Una2 an interesting caster with a strong feat instead of ball-busting.

I think the problem with her is that she has an insane assassination threat and solid scenario play with her feat, but then also gets ridiculous armor cracking from Flank. Drop Flank to Gang and you lose the armor cracking, forcing her to take some heavies (if you want to *not* rely entirely on her assassination game; without the armor cracking she has, her scenario game isn't *that* good), and balance out things.

Great idea.

>>51357747
>I think the problem with her is that she has an insane assassination threat and solid scenario play with her feat, but then also gets ridiculous armor cracking from Flank.
And ridiculous hit fixing. And a thousand different defense mechanisms.

Really the only weakness I can think of for her list is an infantry swarm. And I'm talking 40+ dudes here.

>>51357713
Yes, unequivocally.

If you:

a) have the Krielstone UA
b) allow me to burn your Krielstone to death
c) have not put yourself into a winning position as a result

You are bad at Trolls.

>>51357774
Sentry Stones are ridiculously good at clearing spammy infantry, and most Una2 lists take a Pureblood, so even large-scale infantry spam isn't particularly a counter.

She doesn't like high-quality shooting lists. That's about it.

>>51357850
They won't clear 40+ dudes. If you're going to bring them, bring all of them.

>>51358271
They'll clear enough.

Sentry Stones do a ton of work against dudespam, and the Pureblood can take care of harder stuff, and realistically, you don't need to clear *much* infantry to set up an assassination (or a second turn assassination).

The problem with dudespam, though, is that even if you can get guys in melee with the Griffons (which isn't a guarantee due to Long Leash), DEF 15 is a serious barrier to most infantry, and her feat stops jamming for one turn -- which is probably all she'll need.

>>51358616

Watch out for Skorne, though.

Wow that was weird to say.

>>51357578
Tuna turns the Scarsfell up to 11, but it's absolutely not terrible with other casters. Even with "only" Primal, it still hits way above its weight class. Any caster with a damage buff on their card can turn it into a heavy killer - Tuna just does it for very little investment.

>>51357831
So, basically the thing I said initially?

>>51355204
>>51355277
If you wanted to tweak the griffons, I think you just change the stats. Bring the Scarsfell down a little, bump the other two up. Right now, scarsfell is the "everything" griffon, where it should be the stealth/flanking griffon. Rotterhorn's obviously got a niche, you just have to cost him right. And the razorwing SHOULD be the fighty griffon, that's taking down heavies with help, so buff him up a bit.

>>51357831
See, section c is why you do it, but still doesn't excuse the massive point investment rest of the faction being gimped. Back when animi can be spread, this was not an issue. Now trolls got hit with double whammy with more expensive krielstone and shitty animi.

It doesn't help that trolls don't really operate with grade a casters due to assumption of wide spread support

>>51347839
Nerf where?
I play PoM

>>51354727
>Yeah, or they waste the damn errata like what they did with the night troll. Woo, mat 6.
Can't wrap my head around why people say this? Waste the errata? What? It's not like there's some artificial limit. It's not like if you didn't get that, you would have got something else instead. There's no equivalence. It's a little gimme buff, for a model that obviously sucks. They probably didn't even have to playtest it to know that MAT 6 there wasn't breaking anything. Who cares?

>>51346329
My old gator men Army says hello from the water template

>>51359658
Troll players care.

It's a change that absolutely no one wanted. Night troll has a lot of issues. Animus is shit on it or other casters. Paralysis on melee which means follow up shooting is still not optimal you can only melee it, it doesn't have a gun so eyeless sight is a dead rule on it. Stealth is the only saving grace it has and again he needs to go into melee range while needing an entourage of support to accomplish anything in there.

It's compounded by the fact that trolls in general are not good at running beasts and other beasts are so important that no one can afford the night troll as an luxury.

Long leash, gun, any better animus, etc would've actually let him see table. Mat 6 bump on a model fishing for crits with just fucking nothing

>>51359258
>Even with "only" Primal, it still hits way above its weight class

With Primal, into a Crusader (10/19, 32 boxes, chosen for fairly generic heavy stats), a Scarsfell averages 14.3 damage; that's boosting all damage rolls (buying attacks instead averages 11.9).

Stacking Forced Evolution on the Scarsfell or Curse of Shadows on the target goes up to 21.5 (with buying attacks; it's past the threshold where boosted damage rolls is beneficial, and boosting damage rolls only yields 19.9 average damage).

So I disagree that it's a heavy killer with "only" Primal. Without any other damage buff, two Primaled Scarsfells don't kill a Crusader on average dice.

Against the Crusader, two Scarsfell under Primal only have a 34% chance. Adding a third Scarsfell with a full Fury complement (but no Primal) bumps this up to 76% (or 87% with Primal).

So to reliably kill a generic heavy warjack, you need to expend the activation of 24 points of models doing the damage, spend 4 Fury (between your caster and Gorax) to Primal up two of them, lose the activation of two of them *next* turn, and then have to manage Fury from the third one (or you can Primal it, in which case you lose its activation too, and have to spend 6 Fury between caster and Gorax).

I don't think that's "above its weight class" at all. And even with a STR buff/ARM debuff, you still need two to kill a heavy, which I don't think qualifies as "a heavy killer".

Two of them under Primal *do* kill a Warpwolf on average dice, though.

I still don't think it's enough.

>>51359504
If that's what you want to believe, sure.

If your Krielstone burning to death is a problem, you're bad at Trolls is what was said, and spelled out in more detail. You earlier had some problem with that.

>>51359650
That was sarcasm.

>>51359569
Completely different point.

It's a legitimate complaint that the Krielstone is so good it's mandatory and by being mandatory everything else is designed assuming it's around.

Having your Krielstone burn to death -- and this *mattering* in a game -- means you're bad at Trolls and shouldn't be talking about balance until you git gud.

>>51361679
That was the only thing I said. You were talking to some other anon.

>>51361748
Sorry then, carry on :)

>>51359658
If I was a trollbloods player who liked the Night Troll model, I'd care.

It sucks to see something get buffed, but get such a joke-stool of a buff is just awful. Its like being handed a slice of delicious pizza, only to realize its the chef's first time making pizza, and hes only vaguely heard about what pizza is.
maybe I should just go get some pizza.
REGARDLESS, it feels like an actual nothing buff. No niche, no value, just a hodgepodge of thematically cool stuff that does near nada on the table.
love the model though.

>>51355192
CoC only spams jacks because we have so few other models that are viable and work SPECIFICALLY with other models.
Aurora has Angels, and I GUESS you could run the Foundries with infantry spam but then you'd lose out on the field marshal ruling. Actually, I guess the big problem is actually Field Marshall; since the faction's pretty well designed around FM and it doesn't work with non-warjack models, what's the point of running non-jacks if I'm losing out on a central part of my faction's design?

>>51361726
As I've said before. This is a new problem. You have to risk your stone burning if you want to accomplish anything with the rest of your infantry since there's no damage buff for them.

You basically have to choose between doing nothing or opponent doing slightly worse. It's a choice that was unnecessarily put on trolls for no benefit.

Try playing some trolls. People thought skorne was fine until they tried it themselves

>>51361852
You are saying +1 STR is the difference between "accomplish[ing] anything with the rest of your infantry" and not.

That is hyperbole. It's ridiculous hyperbole.

You need to git gud because you're making bad arguments.

Please, show me the math on how +1 STR is the difference between accomplishing "anything" and not doing so.

Best I can do is Kriel Warriors charging single-wound models with ARM 21, which ain't exactly common, and even then it's only a 26% loss in efficiency. Which is, of course, meaningful, but that's the biggest swing I can find, and in that case you're still doing *something* without the buff.

You can talk swinging the odds on killing a Colossal, but if you have to sacrifice something to kill a Colossal, you still end up with a dead Colossal.

>Try playing some trolls. People thought skorne was fine until they tried it themselves

I haven't said Trolls are fine. I've said your arguments about the Krielstone suddenly being a fire hazard are shit because they are.

>>51362282
It's not a big swing by any stretch, but it's choice that needs to be made.

Armor 19 and 20s are where things begin to concern you over that due to dice -7 math. Which is where a lot of meta boogeymen lie unsurprisingly.

>>51362417
>It's not a big swing by any stretch, but it's choice that needs to be made.

Yes, it's a choice, but in most cases where having a Krielstone trivially burned to the ground is an option (like, say, against the dual Sunbursts I often run in my Protectorate lists), you have an option that is *better than +1 STR*, so you take it.

"The Krielstone is overpriced as a faction-defining support unit that is always assumed to be present and its mechanics make already-slow Troll casters more awkward to play on the first round." is an excellent argument about problems with the Krielstone. Shit about having to choose between two good options is not.

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Pondering EoT stuff for Protectorate.

This is an iteration of a list with it.

I like the idea of stacking Vision and Oracular Vision, so I can ignore two hits on my ARM 21 jack.

Ok , so next Circle Theme is Wold as spoiled by primecast.

Now I know Wold aren't the best right now, but there are good potential in Theme.

It just need to give the Wold something they miss. Optimal would be a bonus to damage, something like al Wolds gain Dark Shroud, but I don't see that coming.

Some side thing like all Construct Warbeast gain shield guard could be nice and could actually help Bradigus or Baldur2 watcher spam return to the table.

From what we have seen I think we can expect the bonus to be :

Every 25 point of Wabeast gain a free Druid solo;

Constuct gain X ability;

And then I expect something to offseat Wold lack of SPD so something like +2" Deployment.

Has anyone played Amon theme yet (with or against)?

How good is it?

Question: How does RoF work now? Only denotes initial attacks you can do with the gun?
Can I shoot viktor's gun 3 times now via focus?

>>51363684
Amon was already S-tier.

The theme makes him better.

Any questions?

>>51363703
Not unless it has a Reload value. Models cannot, as a general rule, buy more ranged attacks than their initial ones. Reload values indicate how many times fury or focus can be used to buy additional attacks, like the old RoF rule. Best example I can think of is Caine2's guns, which went from RoF Infinite to Reload: Infinite but mechanically work the same as in Mk 2 (he can potentially dump all of his focus into more shots).

>>51363703
RoF does indeed only indicate how many initial shots a model gets with any given ranged attack.

>>51363703
RoF is how many initial shots you can make with the gun, yes.

You need the Reload rule to spend focus to buy additional ranged attacks, and the Viktor has no Reload rule, so it only gets the 1 RoF shot.

>>51363282
With Kaya3 getting Synergy, the Wold list is going to have to be bonkers to make Bradigus good in comparison.

Shield Guard isn't enough for Woldwatchers with Synergy capped at 3.

I'm hoping for something actually interesting, like giving Blessing of Vengeance's bond ability (+2/+2 to the first spell channeled through it per turn) to Geomancies.

>>51348205
Lets keep politics on Pol, we don't need to turn this into that kind of scub-fest.

>>51363949
Way to reply to something posted a full day ago.

Real fucking class act there

Guys I played Hexeris1 today and it was FUN. My list had a Reptile Hound to use as a cheap arc node. It was surprisingly effective.

>>51353650
Bro, all this thread is is a place for people to complain and ask to be spoonfed basic shit.

Notice how it's been kinda dead since Skorne errata? The Skorne players are too busy finding new things to complain about so they won't look like huge retards when they go back to complaining in a week or two.

None of the factions are so far above the others as to be unbeatable, none are so far below the others as to be unwinnable. Some may be slightly easier or harder to play with, but faction balance only comes into play when the guy across the table is extremely close to your own skill level.

On an unrelated note; when the fuck are minions gonna get a new caster? It's been like 3 years Jesus fuck.

>>51364704
when Convergence gets another model, Minions will get another caster.

>>51357578
Removing Long Leash removes the uniqueness of the Scarsfell. Not gonna happen. Also not the problem.

>>51361647
Addendum:

Average damage to a 10/19 jack:

Scarsfell, Flank, full Fury load: 19.5
Scarsfell, Flank, Primal, full Fury: 30.4
Scarsfell, Flank, Hand of Fate, full Fury: 29.6
Scarsfell, Flank, Hand of Fate, Primal, full Fury: 41.2

With Flank alone, a Scarsfell is just ~2 average damage below a Forced Evo (or Curse of Shadows) Primaled Griffon, and it gets more insane from there.

They're just not very good without Una2. Kaya3 will have some game with them (Primal + full Synergy load is 27.2 damage, full Synergy alone is 16.1), but still isn't in Una's league for running them.

tl;dr - Scarsfell Griffons are bad. Una2 is OP. No great surprises.

>>51364933
Nobody plays Scarsefells outside of Una2 (although Kaya3 will have some game with them). Their uniqueness doesn't matter, they're crap without multiple stacked bonuses.

>>51364740
Except when PP released CoC they outright stated that CoC wasn't on a primary release schedule and that they *might* receive occasional new models.

Mercs and Minions are supposedly on a similar (albeit delayed) release schedule. It's been time for a new gator and/or piggy 'lock for over a year now.

>>51364993
Una2 is "OP" for literally three models only.

Textbook glossary definition of a SPECIALIST.

>>51365018
Tanith, Una1, some Kromac2 and Wurmwood lists. You can confirm on DCI.

>>51365041
I'd really say it's only one model. But you can take that model for almost your entire army, so it really doesn't matter that it's just one model.

>>51365063
Fair enough, there's a Tanith build that some people ran in the WTC that included them, and some other casters on teams that finished out of the top 5. Outside of that tournament, going back to July, I can't find another non-Una2 list with Scarsfells.

"Nobody" is hyperbole, but they're *rare* outside of Una2.

>>51365216
By that logic, Sloan, Amon in theme, Abby2, Nemo eLeaps, and other similar lists deserve to get hit. You know, since taking models that work with their caster's specialty is OP now

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My army ^^

>>51365430
By that logic nothing in the game could ever be OP because it's something's specialty.

>>51365677
What's Kreoss1's specialty? Wurmwood's specialty? I could go on and on with the numerous generic all-rounder casters. Quit with the asspulls.

You don't take melee units with Sloan. You don't take snipers with Karchev.

SKORNE IS SO GOOD NOW SKORNE HAS SO MANY OPTIONS AND VIABLE LISTS

>(Makeda 1) Archdomina Makeda [+29]
- Agonizer [6]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]

>(Makeda 3) Makeda & the Exalted Court [+24]
- the Exalted Court
- Agonizer [6]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]

These are the two lists I'm bringing to my upcoming Steamroller. About 90 of the points are exactly the same. Makeda1 is there because she's just fucking stupid, and Makeda3 is there as an assassination/anti-infantry list. There's no solos because they're all shit. I only use the Willbreaker because he makes my plays efficient and safe. Wouldn't wanna surf on infantry without Puppet Master desu senpai.

SEE JUST LOOK HOW VARIED SKORNE IS NOW AFTER THE ERRATA WE'RE USING THE EXACT FUCKING SAME LISTS AS BEFORE EXCEPT THE BRONZEBACK IS FURY 5 AND KARN GAINED A STRENGTH

SOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOD

>>51365986
>Skorne errata makes your old army better
That's kind of the point of an errata desu senpai.
If PP was a money-grabbing machine they'd make you buy all new things. :^)

>>51366043
But like, absolutely nothing about Skorne changed in the least. Where's this faction identity that PP talked about? Also please come on PP just buff fucking Nihilators they haven't received a single change single they were first released.

>>51365986

It looks like you doing the build lists towards ease of Tournament transport thing desu.

>>51366222
I store my models in a cabinet in my LGS anyway

No but really Skorne's best models are still heavies by a long shot. Sentry + Agonizer can win games, and Nihilators still do the same old job. Solos are pointless when they're as bad as ours. Why bring a few solos when I can just bring max Nihilators? 4 heavies and a solid toothed tarpit is a recipe for success.

>>51366085
PP just likes thowing around buzzwords like "faction identify" and "design space"

Who should I use my animantarax with

>>51366554
Your desert hydra.
Your books will be standing straight as fuck.

>>51366604
lolol

Anyway I was thinking of giving it to xerxis1, to let him have essentially a heavy warbeast he doesn't have to fury manage

>>51366517

Also Buzzwords like "it" or "the." Fucking assholes, just use plain English!

>>51366554
Anyone who can drop ARM on demand. Hexeris1 and Rasheth come right to mind.

>>51365973
So Mad Dog spam wasn't OP because it was Karchev's specialty?

>>51366880
>implying Harkevich didn't do it better
I want no terrain fags to leave

>>51367328
Hush now, I want "but muh specialist" to defend 2016.1 Mad Dogs.

Harkevich Kodiaks are fucking scary.

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>>51365496
Interesting unit choice, but not bad!

>tfw Makeda1's feat is Martyrdom + Retaliatory Strike
>mfw if I wanted Martyrdom I'd have just played Makeda2 for Stay Death as a passive and she supports infantry better
>mfw if I wanted Retaliatory Strike I could have just played Zaadesh2 for Defensive Strike

When will the memeing end?

>>51361812
This. The nerf to Enigma Foundries really weakened already weak infantry.
Couple this with the fact that your infantry are really only good against infantry, and infantry aren't run anymore, and CoC has no reason to use anything but support and jacks.
I'm not complaining though. I've been running dual Axioms since MK2 and see no reason to switch up my tactics now.

>>51367804
> whining about a thematic and interesting caster whose feet superficially resembles an ability from her second form and counterpunch army theme

When will the Whining end, for fucks sake

>>51368018

It's just 4-chan faggotry at this point. The Skorne forums are still spewing post after post sunshine and goodwill to the world yet. They think they can take on 2una.

Rhulic army. What kind of terrain do they live in? Mountains?

>>51369205
Yes, the dwarves live in the mountains.

>>51369205
Its called the Seaforge commission so probably an archipelago.

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>>51365986
You know there are plenty of other viable lists in Skorne, right? You don't have to play the same thing if you don't want to

>>51369288
>Seaforge commission
>Seaforge
WAT?

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>>51369288
It most certainly is not. It's called the Searforge Commission
Sear Forge
Sear.
Like searing heat.

But I get it, sometimes the "r" just disappears into the "a" and the "f". As for not getting the geography that can be hard too, it's not like the Mk2 rulebooks had maps in them or anything.

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So if I want to build off of the Trollbloods battle box, where do I go from here? Just reading through the thread tells me that Krielstone is mandatory, but what else?

>>51365041
So 40k lists that only spam 1 OP model are fair and balanced because they're "Specialists"? Sure m80. If their specialization is killing everything from a mile away and not dying they are NOT a specialist, they are just broken.

>>51365986
That's just your lack of creativity though. Those lists would be a LOT better if you varied them more.

>>51368111
>They think they can take on 2una.
Everyone is very realistic about it. She's probably the only thing we can't take on unless our opponent makes some big mistakes or we tech 100% against her and the tree.

>>51371774
Krielstone+UA and a Mauler should be your next step. From there on our you have multiple options. You could for example get a few Welps and play Power of Dhunia, which shoulkd work well with Ragnor. Or you could look into another Warlock.

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>>51371818
>So 40k lists
Stopped reading there because nobody gives a shit about 40k and comparing apples to oranges gets you absolutely nothing. But I'll humor you:

>only spam 1 OP model are fair and balanced
Scarsfell Griffons aren't OP. Una2 isn't OP. It just so happens that Scarsfells running under Una are just really good, but that's called being a specialist. That's called synergy. Better nerf Sloan, she makes ranged units really good. :^)

The Scarsfell needs to be adjusted down, while the Rotterhorn and Razorwing need to be adjusted up so that all three are viable.

>If their specialization is killing everything from a mile away
Una2+Scarsfell threat ranges are nowhere near the longest threat ranges in the game, and are nowhere near the strongest hitters in the game. Cry harder.

>and not dying
If you have a problem killing ARM13 light beasts you need to git gud. Hell, Nemo1 decimates half their health just by popping his feat, and that's a niche list. Dice+1? Better if you drop some Fireflies? Yeah, they don't die. :^)

>>51371858
I think there's some merit to Rasheth + Mammoth combo.

Feat means that even blast damage can seriously hurt a Griffon, and with the STR debuff stacking, it takes something like 4 griffons to kill the Mammoth back, which is a real issue for her.

>>51371874
Alright, am I always going to go for full unit of Krielstone?

>>51371999
You massive idiot. So Bradigus was fair and balanced? Denny2 that didn't need any other models at all was fair and balanced?

It doesn't fucking matter how many different units your list includes. If the list presents problems that can only be solved by an extremely skewed list or can't be solved by some factions, that list is OP. It's so fucking simple. How can you be so fucking stupid to not get this you fucking moron?

>>51372098
It takes the damage from 3 Griffons and the Flank from one to kill an effective ARM24 Mammoth. That is a real issue.

I think the better solution is to go with X2 and just outthreat her. Should work more or less against the Tree too if you take Orin.

>>51372134
>How can you be so fucking stupid to not get this you fucking moron?

Because your entire argument is "X is OP! You're fucking stupid!" and contains nothing of substance. You don't propose any fixes other than "nerf it" and refuse to consider any of the currently-existing counters.

>>51372174
You likely lose the Mammoth in this setup, sure. But you more than likely do some real damage before they get in, he very likely has to feat to even get to the Mammoth, and your counter punch after her feat can leave her hurting pretty badly.

>>51372105
Not always. You will always want the UA though


>>51372175
It fucking isn't. I'm saying your attitude of "it's just one kind of model so it can't be OP" is wrong, as has been proven in the past by various other lists, like B+S, WW or Mad Doggos.

2na is fine into some factions (mostly Cygnar) that can bring a strong ranged game and get around her three defensive layers while genereating automatic hits. She's not fine into factions that can't.

>>51372134
Brandongus is and was.
He is UP even. His theme was full meme.

>>51372254
And there were like five people who took him out of theme. When people say "Bradigus" they mean "Wold War".

>>51372198
Again, if you bothered to read:

>it's just one kind of model so it can't be OP
Mad Dogs aren't a specialized list. There were a drastically undercosted heavy warjack that could be taken by anyone and ran in any list, and often were. Spamming them exacerbated a core problem with the model coupled with the new Power Up mechanic and was corrected. Notice how it wasn't "Karchev is OP!". Notice how people still run Karchev but spam Juggernauts.

The Griffon isn't OP. If it was OP, it would be seeing play in literally anything else as well. And there are plenty of ways to counter ARM13 light warbeasts. Look into not taking two melee lists to an SR if you're so worried.

>>51372310
And Wolds were not broken outside of WW, so what's your point?

>>51372364
The point your missing is this:
1.) Outside of Una, Griffons are dogshit. Not just "not broken". They aren't taken.
2.) Inside Una, they aren't broken. ARM13 birds that have plenty of counters, but you're hung up on something or another.

Griffons != Wolds. != Mad Dogs. != whatever else you're trying to come up with.

>>51372278
Sometimes you REALLY want units

the people who bitch about una2 make me laugh. these were probably the same people crying on the forums about how OP she was even before the model was released. fuck people are even crying on the forums when only part of kaya3 is spoiled. "waaah a cavalry warlock with synergy and fm:reposition for warpwolves? nerf nerf nerf!"

believe it or not, if you want to play competitively, you sometimes have to play lists that arent your super special petlist of thematic idrians or whatever the fuck it is your using.

thank god she will only be subject to the community development this year. PP will be able to filter out all the shitters who think that "Una2 counters my Legion Samurai Company, this is problematic for my gaming experience."

>>51372577
You are missing the point. Nobody is bitching. There are some very fair assessments about her by people with lots of playtime into her. She's very easy for certain factions to solve and nigh-on impossible for others.

>>51372394
>1.) Outside of Una, Griffons are dogshit. Not just "not broken". They aren't taken.
I never said anything to the contrary. So I don't see how I'm missing the point.
>2.) Inside Una, they aren't broken. ARM13 birds that have plenty of counters, but you're hung up on something or another.
See, I get that that is an easy problem to solve for some factions, but it's a disaster for others. Not being able to shoot or melee them is huge. Cygnar can easily kill those Griffons, and so can Protectorate and Cryx, to name a few. Trolls might be able to do it with double Fire Eaters, but aside from that there's no real solution for them. And while I greatly enjoy the updated Skorne, we really don't have a good answer into 2na. if every faction could with reasonable effort achieve 40:60 against her I wouldn't mind her at all.

>>51372650
>Nobody is bitching
Okay, self-correction: There is quite some bitching, but this is not it.

>>51372577
Shitbrewers... shitbrewers never learn.

>>51372650
>She's very easy for certain factions to solve and nigh-on impossible for others.
Pretty much every faction except for Trolls has answers.

>Cygnar
The faction blessed with multiple counters (true-sight ranged, eleaps, etc.)

>Retribution
Not as many as Cyngar, but still decent and still able to pull their own shenanigans.

>Menoth
Now get access to the even more degenerate Amon Dervish spam, which has better movement, defenses, and damage output.

>Khador
High armor is hard for griffons to crack without extreme dedication, which leaves them over-committing units (16pts on a 12-14pt heavy isn't cost-effective) as well as exposed the turn after feat/primal to a retaliatory bloodbath.

>Cryx
Actually got shut out by someone playing pirate spam. Griffons are useless eating free strikes and having nowhere to land, on top of being unable to clear infantry.

>Legion
Has about as many answers as Retribution.

>Skorne
PP forums has a thread full of counter theorycrafting with various casters. That said, Skorne are able to cater to the core weakness of Una2 highlighted in my Cryx mention: they suck against infantry lists.

>Trollbloods
Are dogshit against pretty much everything already. Players should probably kill themselves to counter Una2, since they won't get a Skorne-level errata.

>Mercs/Minions
Not a real faction.

>Robutts
Who even plays these?

>She's very easy for certain factions to solve and nigh-on impossible for others.
That's not really a problem of the caster. The caster just exposes a fault with PP's development. It shouldn't have to be said that if a faction (regardless of the list) is somehow decisively crippled in a game by not being allowed to use melee attacks against the key models of an army for one turn, the problem is with the faction. Trollbloods.

That said, I've yet to see a faction other than Shitbloods be "a disaster" and lack a reasonable effort to counter birds.

>>51372836
>That's not really a problem of the caster. The caster just exposes a fault with PP's development. It shouldn't have to be said that if a faction (regardless of the list) is somehow decisively crippled in a game by not being allowed to use melee attacks against the key models of an army for one turn, the problem is with the faction. Trollbloods.
It's not just Trollbloods. The reason for the dozens of posts in the Skorne forum is that there is no Skorne list that plays well into her and doesn't auto-lose to WW. Other factions have the same issue. That pirate-spam you mentioned might work into 2na, but just loses so hard to WW.

And Griffons have trouble cracking armor? Since when? They crack armor better than most heavies and have a timewalk feat to help them with that. Do you know why Haley2 was Cygnar's armor answer for the better part of Mk2? Because of the feat. Because it allows for a double-alpha or a single alpha against very long-threatening opponents. And now guess what 2na does better than her. There's a reason Saeryn (or however you spell her) got her feat changed. It just produced binary matchups. And this one is even worse due to the choices available. It's like Mk2 Saeryn had fucking Shadow Pack.

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>>51372901
> The reason for the dozens of posts in the Skorne forum is that there is no Skorne list that plays well into her and doesn't auto-lose to WW.
Well, good thing you won't have to worry about auto-losing to WW for much longer. :^)

>And Griffons have trouble cracking armor?
A single griffon doesn't crack armor. A pair does. One of those is going to be down a die, and you're committing at least 16 points to a single model, some of which cost as low as 10pts. Makes it easy to blast them afterwards though.

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>>51335537
fag

>>51372836
>Robutts
>Who even plays these?

[Sad bleep bloop noises]

>>51372836
>>51373121
Robots should have a very easy game into 2na though. TEPs eradicate Griffons by the dozen.

>>51373029
>and you're committing at least 16 points to a single model
There is no commitment there. That's what the Time Walk is for. Or did you think Haley2 committed her Stormwall into WW back in mk2?

>>51373121
>>51373230
I only have 1 Robutts player (he has 120mm bases and everything) in my meta. I don't even know what they do.

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>>51373235
God damn dude, let go of WW. It can't hurt you anymore. Not even a good comparison.

>>51367804
Mak1's feat only says friendly models though, not friendly faction ;^)

>>51373244
So a spam list that skewed matchups in Mk2 is not a valid comparison for a spam list that skewed matchups in Mk3? Nice to see you have no semblance of a point.

>>51373253
Yeah, that's so getting the nerf bat in june/july. I'd be delighted if it didn't and will have fun with invincible Orin until then, but I think it's an oversight.

>>51373255
>Nice to see you have no semblance of a point.
Apples and oranges. Something that is broken can shift the meta. But something that shifts the meta doesn't mean it is broken.

>>51373115
thicc

>>51373272
It's not about shifting the meta. 2na does not shift the meta and neither did WW.

>>51373262
DEF15 Gobbers sitting in charge lanes is why it'll get nerfed.

>>51373312
Oh that's a good one aswell. Also Wrongeye.

>>51373303
When people are bringing Malekus and the siege engine as a counter list, I think the meta has been warped.

>>51373303
Una2 shifts the meta. Una2 is not "broken". Every faction, even the limited underpowered trolls, has an answer to an Una2 list.

You honestly just need to git gud and get over your WW PTSD. Maybe try actually playing a few games against Una2. Or hell, if you have friendly people at your meta, ask to pilot a list yourself.

You'll quickly see it's not some EZMODE list like you think it is.

>>51373317
Wrongeye does very little for Skorne considering Starcrossed affects attack rolls and our DEF is so low to begin with.

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>>51373303
>argues the entire thread you need to list against una2 with every faction
>una2 doesn't shift the meta its not about shifting the meta
ok

>>51373327
>all of that deflection and AH
I think we're done here.

>>51373340
We have some decent DEF on our Infantry. Put him behind the Legends, Feat with Mak1 and reap despair.

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>>51373298
The thiccest

>>51373346
Okay. Have fun with your "why bother?" attitude in matches. :^)

>>51373341
That's the thing though. Some factions can just take what they were already taking and do fine (Sloan, Fire Eaters for example) and others simply don't have an answer.

>>51373354
Enjoy the nerf in June.

>>51373381
Honestly tell me, what are they going to nerf?

I can break down every aspect of both the griffon and Una and I'm honestly not worried.

>>51373410
Change immune to melee to +3DEF.

>>51373430
Not going to happen. They don't retool entire feats. Even Karchev only lost the free boost on the attack roll, Wurmwood went from CTRL to CMD, and Madrak isn't allowed to affect himself anymore.

>>51373430
Kaya3's feat is going to be +2-3 DEF. They're not going to have the same feat on 2 casters.

>>51373442
>They don't retool entire feats.
Sloan says "Hi."

>>51373630
At the beginning of MK3, not in an errata. And it was a buff. :^)

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>>51373630
una2 lets you turn 1 assassinate in your opponents deployment zone? i must be playing her wrong.

>>51372836
I like how the factions that have genuine difficulty taking on Tuna you claim aren't real factions, nobody plays or suggest that the players should kill themselves. Real classy.

When 30% of the factions have difficulty countering something, there's probably a problem.

And any faction that can be taken into a tournament is a "real" faction. Despite what you might want to believe or if it suits your argument or not.

>>51374131
Taking jokes too seriously is a sign of autism, anon.

>>51374131
Coc have difficulty against everything, whu do you think they are bottom tier to begin with. Merc and minions are not much better except niche shit like bunny spam.

>>51374164
>coc
>difficulty
[INCREDULOS BEEPS]

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>>51374202
just sayin, not a lot of show, and most (((competitive))) tier listings put them at the bottom by themselves.

fun for casuals and clockwork fetishists

>>51372174

The Zaal2's think it'll just drop into their hands. There's something to it if Immortals are really MAT7 now.

>>51334863

Huh. Stryker has a type.

>>51371999
>Una2 isn't OP.

Horseshit.

>but that's called being a specialist.

So 2016.1 Mad Dogs were ok, because Karchev was being a specialist?

>Better nerf Sloan, she makes ranged units really good.

Sloan is overpowered too, but not as much as Una2. Sloan epitomizes "negative play experience" and should be changed, imo.

>The Scarsfell needs to be adjusted down

So you're saying Una2/Scarsfells *are* OP, because otherwise there would be no reason to "adjust them down"?

>If you have a problem killing ARM13 light beasts

With DEF15, Stealth, Long Leash, and a melee immunity feat.

Yeah, I've lost Scarsfells to boosted blast damage. There are ways around them. There are ways around everything. Doesn't stop them from being overpowered.

>>51372310
>Mad Dogs aren't a specialized list.

The mental gymnastics required to claim that 2016.1 Mad Dog spam was not "specialized" but Una2 running Griffons *is* "specialized" is ridiculous.

They're the same fucking thing -- a cheap, spammable model taken by a caster who grants multiple battlegroup-wide abilities.

You are making qualitative arguments that don't make sense.

>>51373303
>2na does not shift the meta and neither did WW.

What color is the sky in your world?

>>51375477
2na caters to the shooting meta that already exists. WW was part of the armor spam meta that already existed.

>>51373410
>Honestly tell me, what are they going to nerf?

FM: Flank to FM: Gang is the best idea I've seen. Preserves her scenario and assassination game, but drops her heavy killing abilities and/or requires her to not just spam more Griffons to do so.

With that change she'd still be a top-tier caster, but the fervor would die down.

>>51374221
What about that theme list with 16 bulldozing galvanizers?

>>51360089
>>51361803
So... you were upset about the night troll sucking (legit), and the MAT buff is worse than no change at all because... it being mentioned REMINDED you that you were upset? Do I have that right?

Because it's not "replacing" another buff (it doesn't work that way), nor does it preclude them from getting around to actually fixing the night troll down the line. And the most likely alternative is that the night troll just didn't get touched. Qualitatively, the only change pre-errata to now for the night troll, is a small improvement.

>>51374131
Iron Mother + Assimilator spam should put the hurt on Una2 or just taking the Praxiom / TEP.

That being said CoC's boner for prime numbers usually means they're 1 point understatted in one way or another. No caster / jack has a rat above 5, while their flarebots basically have to be in melee thanks to their prime number range of 7.

Good stuff

>>51363282
>Ok , so next Circle Theme is Wold as spoiled by primecast.
>Now I know Wold aren't the best right now, but there are good potential in Theme.

It doesn't necessarily need to be something huge to make wolds matter. We lost Brad in the jump to Mk3, but the wolds themselves mostly improved (esp the monkey). The errata gave a couple small buffs to wolds, the theme will bring a few more. The aggregate effect of a lot of small changes is often greater than people give it credit for.

Biggest hurdle for a Wold Theme is that most of the dedicated wold casters are a bit lackluster.

>>51376107
>Biggest hurdle for a Wold Theme is that most of the dedicated wold casters are a bit lackluster.

Depends entirely on what the in-game theme benefit is; assuming Kaya3 doesn't have a living-only battlegroup rule, she may be a better dedicated Wold caster than Bradigus.

I'm looking forward to it, personally, and hoping it gives something interesting -- a lot of Circle casters could work with Wolds fine; stuff like Kromac with living beast-only spells are really the outlier.

Is legion bad now? Or do you just have to build lists differently?

>>51376327
>Is legion bad now?

Official /wmhg/ tier list:

Strong: Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate, Retribution, Convergence, Skorne, Circle, Minions

Fine: Legion, Mercenaries

Maybe not fine: Trollbloods, Cryx

>>51376384
Could I ask the general for some Legion list examples, my buddy has this defeatist attitude and I want to get him a "gud" list.

>>51376246
>assuming Kaya3 doesn't have a living-only battlegroup rule, she may be a better dedicated Wold caster than Bradigus.
Seems pretty unlikely. Kaya's never been explicityly restricted to living warbeats only, but so many of her abilities trigger off living that it's hard to imagine going without.

>>51376327
>Is legion bad now? Or do you just have to build lists differently?
Hard to quantify #1, but definitely yes to #2 either way. We can definitely say they're not really performing right now, but the "why" is a bit of a mystery.

Legion certainly changed a great deal. You can't play them like you did in Mk2. So it could just be that the community hasn't figured out the new Legion yet, and when it "clicks" then they'll come back with a vengeance.

Just looking at their cards as an outsider, it certainly seems like the raw power is there... but who knows.