/osrg/ OSR General - New Monsters Edition

>>51063807

>>51063161

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Looking for more submissions to add to Troll Gods Issue #2, /OSRG/'s very own fanzine.

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>>51064209

So here's a quick question.
I'm running a game using mostly 2e ADND rules, we're using the speed factor and cast times for initiative rolls however what about monsters? Do they always have no speed factor on attacks or should I just use my own judgement on if the monster is Fast/Medium/Slow as many monsters do not use weapons

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I was saving up this post until the new thread.

Essentially I've seen a lot of back and forth on the issue of the Cleric. There's a lot of good arguments on both sides here, so let's compile them.

Cleric Pros
>Unique, sits outside normal dynamic
>Juicy worldbuilding opportunities, picking Gods essentially lets DM get in on the fun
>Supportive character that doesn't feel like a healslut

Cleric Cons
>Sits outside the perfect trifecta of classes (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard)
>Like above; steps on people's toes a bit (Fights well like Fighter, Does magic like Mage, etc)
>Somewhat setting A-Neutral (implied priesthood and not!catholic church)

I'm not sure where I fall on the above controversy. But I have thought of a way to change Clerics a bit to make them stand out a little more while keeping the core gameplay.

New Cleric
>No more attack bonuses/spells
>Instead gain 'Faith' dice, always a d6
>One Faith die per level
>Use Faith die to heal others, added to regular attacks (smite), or turn creatures opposed to your alignment.
>When Faith dice are used they are considered lost until Cleric performs Rites of his Church. ie; Death Cleric performs a burial of party member, or they pray at a temple.
>(Rites can not be very common, as they must be restricted to lessen the amount of free healing clerics get)

How does this sound for a 'new' cleric?

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What are some good compilations of random tables? I'm running a Searchers of the Unknown game for a friend via email and mostly I've been using the tables from Maze Rats for ideas. More tables for dungeon dressing and things to flesh out room descriptions would be fantastic, though.

>>51064209
>>51064223
What gaps do you have in the next issue's content?

>>51064327
I don't really have anything constructive to say about your new cleric, but I have to ask
>the perfect trifecta of classes (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard)
I keep reading this in these generals. It almost seems like a meme at this point because an argument is rarely made for this pretty broad statement, sort of like the True AD&D thing. Is this a joke I'm not in on or something?

>>51064396
I think it's because they are the main character archetypes you see in most fantasy literature. How many series have a cleric as a protagonist?

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>>51064396

Not but its a really common thing (mostly in vidya) but I think it has a lot of merit.

Considering the adventuring lifestyle there are basically 3 things you're doing all the time. Fighting, Bypassing obstacles, and Magic. Each of the classes falls in line pretty well with each objective. Additionally, each one is useful in combat to some extent; we can extrapolate the fighter as being the tank, the Rogue as being a kind of sneaky damage guy and the Wizard as magical damage artillery/crowd control. Each one also covers the primordial stats; Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence. If you reduced all that stats down to what is most inseparably different about them, you would get something like those three. Pretty much all ancient legends and lore involves either really strong dudes, really sneaky dudes, or really magical smart dudes. Obviously there is overlap here but it's a very nice clear-cut triangle of three classes.

Naturally the Cleric fucks up this natural order by doing things that the other classes are meant to do, as opposed to the ordered perfection of the class-triangle.

Three is just a magic number man, I don't know how to explain it any better.

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>>51064396

>>51064427
Horror, I guess? Like Dracula and The Exorcist.

>>51064458
I dunno, you're making some kind of odd stances here. It might be a perfect trifecta for something else, but for old school D&D I'm not so sure. What's this idea about "primordial stats"? Primordial how? You basing each classes merit on their combat ability is also very weird.

That thing about legends and lore seems kind of cherrypicked too.

>>51064333
Stars Without Numbers has some solid architecture tables, as well as some other tables for creature creation, NPCs, and races. Godbound has stuff for random monster tactics (read actions taken in combat), though I'm not sure if that's something you would find useful. There's the Encounter Anon who's a mastermind, and showers these threads with reliably high quality encounters. Finally I want to highlight the blogs Elfmaids & Octopi and Goblin Punch who both have a million interesting and thought provoking tables to rip from.

>>51064507
Do you mean to tell me that this is a good way to look at D&D classes?

>>51064537
>I dunno, you're making some kind of odd stances here

Well to be fair I'm basically just trying to justify my own beliefs. So you'll have to excuse me.

By 'primordial' I mostly mean if you reduced every attribute and rolled them together I would imagine you would end up somewhere with Strength, Dex and Intelligence as your stats.

You could argue that Strength and Constitution go together, a general whole body wellness. You could also argue that Charisma and/or Wisdom could be folded into Intelligence for a total Mind stat, but what about Dexterity? You can't really mix that in with mind because its more of a body/coordination thing but you can't really mix it in with Body either because that's how we differentiate people. As far as people go we know Smart people, Strong people, and Dexterous/Graceful people. It's just a good grouping to use, even if it is somewhat a cherrypicking sort of thing.

I just really like the idea of being forced along using a class that does fighting ok and magic ok, like the cleric. I don't like that. I want classes that are broad and reductionalist as possible.

>>51064644
I understand if it's your personal preference, but I personally can't really see the appeal of what you're talking about. I think classes are a bit more than their proficiency in fighting and magic, since this game about dungeoncrawling has to do with a lot of other stuff and has been balanced on account of that. I also think that putting stats in categories that don't really have anything to do with the game is kind of poorly thought out too. I mean, I get that the idea of the game rules resembling some sort of deep fundamental tripartite theory of the body, soul and mind is very appealing, but is this actually making the game better or does it just block discussion of actual balance and rule issues?

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>How much of your games happens outside "crawls"?
Most of it. The PCs own a ship, although they have taken part in a couple Vornheim-style neighborhood crawls and "Forgive Us".


>Do you have an ongoing intrigue that the PCs are caught up in or do you focus purely on the dungeon delving?
Most of the intrigue is payer-generated. They've pissed off a few powerful/influential NPCs and are getting involved in national politics, although they've also abandoned a couple of really juicy plot hooks as too much effort.
I do use a Coincidence Dice system; I forget who I stole it from (it sounds like one of Rients' ideas). Basically any time there could be a reasonable literary coincidence where none currently exists, roll a d6. On a 6, it happens. For example, a generic plotting Frenchie-on-the-run in one port popped a six when the French player (a former Royalist agent) ran into him; post Reaction roll, I determined that the NPC was a French agent of the Queen and former ally of the PC, before a disastrous falling-out in the court set them both to flight. Now they're conniving to get back in the Royal good graces, while another pair of PCs is tits-deep in a brewing slave revolt and the rest are mostly trying to score drugs and pussy.

>Do you roleplay shopkeepers or do you give your players an item list?
At creation, players get a list just to keep things fast and fair.

Once you're in-play, I roleplay. Have a system for dealing with them:

>Shopkeeper reaction system
Hostile: Refuses to deal with any PC(s) present. Charges at least double if forced to deal, and will gleefully slander them to other shopkeepers/town watch if possible.
Unfreindly: 1d10x10% surcharge on all goods. Will be surly and uncooperative, and require extensive bribes or other convincing to find rare items.
Indifferent: (1d6-1d6)x10% surcharge/discount. Will not go out of his way for PCs unless tipped.

>>51064095
>What's the most interesting monster you've ever seen?
The Sussurus if we're just talking gimmicks.

>Or clever take on a classic monster?
Ravenloft's Halfling Vampires, who are repelled by tobacco smoke and fire-places.

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>>51064779
<cont>
>Indifferent
should be "neutral". Also, in all cases a "0" on the D10 indicates a zero, NOT a ten. Positive is a surcharge, negative a discount.

Indifferent: (1d6-1d10)x10% surcharge/discount on all items. If prompted, will look for/order rare stock or otherwise help PCs. May buy stock from them, depending on quality and heat.

Friendly: 1d6x10% discount on purchases. Will suggest useful items, even if he doesn't carry them, and provide recommendations to other shopkeepers in town (+1 bonus to Reaction rolls and general quality of items).

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>>51064427
>How many series have a cleric as a protagonist?
Le Morte d'Artur, especially the sections dealing with Percival and Galahad. Gawaine is some kind of Warlock/patronized by an Earth deity. Roland is a Cleric, as are most of the "holy knights" in European romance. Note that they're heavily-contrasted with the more Earthly warriors, like Kay and Bors. Arabian stories have a crap-load of them, in particular the Thousand and One Nights, usually portrayed as mendicant warriors.

>>51064327
>>Somewhat setting A-Neutral (implied priesthood and not!catholic church)
It implies >only< a religion that has Holy warriors.
Sikhs, Moslems, Hindus, Zoroastirans, Mithrains, and many African or American native cultures have similar traditions of wandering warrior-mystics who heal, oppose evil magic with their own more Lawful charms, and shank a motherfucker, while still not being especially Thiefly or Magey, and more magical than a straight fighter.

Clerics are NOT priests.
They were never meant to be; they're holy warriors and monster hunters with a god over their shoulders.
It's only in the Satanic Panic and after the creation of the Paladin in 1e pushes them out of their niche that they start going there, and then 2e wasting half of a book to create a bunch of more "priestly" kits.

I really don't mind an Evil High Priest/White Wizard/White Mage/Priest class based on the Magic-user, but the Holy Warrior is a different thing than the good old Murderer we all know and love as the Fighter.

>Class suggestion
It's an okay idea, if a bit simplistic at this stage,
Just have Rites be efficacious only once per day, and they must be performed with believers in attendance. If you really want to be mean, use something like the Force Points system from WEG d6 Star Wars, where you lose points/have them corrupted when you do things opposed to your deity and only uncorrupt them with great services.

>>51064458
>Complaining that clerics messed up the natural order
>Not the thief
>Probably doesn't realize the original three classes were fighting-man, magic-user and cleric

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>>51064166
>What are some good classic TSR modules?

I'm fond of:
B1 - In Search of the Unknown
B4 - The Lost City
I1 - Dwellers in the Forbidden City
I2 - Tomb of the Lizard King
WoG04 - Forgotten Temple of Tharizduin (it's just FUN, damnit).

So, my OD&D digest came, and I have two questions, /osrg/.

One, does anybody have a similar link to a Chainmail? I have a serious need for the proper combat rules now.

And two, what the hell happened? Why did so many of the *really good* rules in OD&D just fall by the wayside? LBBs get a lot of (mostly deserved) flak for being unclear, but I can't remember ever seeing clearer or simpler overland travel rules. Even Basic manages to make them clunkier somehow. Where did the rules for evading monsters and for inhabitants of castles go? Why do the djinn and efreet suck compared to the straight LBB ones in every other edition? (That is, they suck in implementation, not in terms of power level. On the contrary, their power level rising made them worse.) And so on, and so on.

>>51064779
>>51064871
Dulac is *the* GOAT but your scans are terrible.

>>51064209
Are you TroveGuy? If so, did I ever send you my Martyr class for Basic?

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>>51065312
>Dulac is *the* GOAT but your scans are terrible.
I agree, I should probably hunt some more up. I've just been on a Harry Clarke kick recently when I'm not writing (how the fuck did ~10,000 words come out of my hands in the last two weeks, and why did I have to delete half of them?).

>>51065359
>how the fuck did ~10,000 words come out of my hands in the last two weeks, and why did I have to delete half of them?
Fuckin' nice, what are you writing?

>>51064377
Right now, as far as I know it's a lack of *any* content, not a specific kind. There's a small amount but not enough to fill pages.

>>51065342
Nope, I'm just the OP. If you're not sure if you've sent something already, just try again. If there are edits to the previous version submitted, note them it in some capacity or a revision number. I'm sure it will help TroveGuy spot the changes.

Can anyone suggest any good OSR podcasts? Not actual plays, just discussions.

I've listened to some Save or Die and Roll for Initiative so far.

>>51064095
Does anyone have; Blood & Treasure 2nd Edition Monsters?

It's not in the OSR Trove

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IT BEGINS

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>>51065386
Bunch of different shit. I'm still transcribing some of my old notes and rules from back in the '90s, and revising them for modern play, plus I'm writing up a toolkit book full of random shit that I use during play so I can finally get it all out of my head.

Highlights (subject to change):
• "Wunderkammer" system for nerds who want to Carouse but also want to spend money on things like spells.
• A series of essays on treasure and alternate stuff to make hoards more interesting, along with a bunch of treasure tables (this got lost when my tablet got stolen last week, I hadn't backed it up to my desktop yet)
• Those Familiar rules I posted the back-of-the-envelope notes for last week.
• An ongoing project to make an NPC-generation supplement that doesn't suck, either by being too goddamned clunky to actually use, or too sparse to be useful. Goal is to combine it with some stuff I've already done on generating wizards and make a publishable book (see: http://wp.me/p2mOz7-pR )
• Writing up administrative shit for my next campaign session, which my players have made vastly more-complicated than it needs to be. As long as I can get all the fuckers in one place for long enough to start a game, anyway..

>>51065501
Stop asking, if you haven't found it only 4/7/ 4+4 or here it probally doesn't exsist, so stopnasking about shitty retroclones, when there is REAL D&D to be discussed.

Retroclones were a mistake anyway, a bunch of fucking pathetic nerds who are trying to scam other 40-50 basement-dwellers by selling them their homebrew.

It's like Pathfinder

>>51065505
>Combat Maneuvers allows you to reduce enemy's AC by one OR make the next attack they take gain an additional attack die.

Wouldn't making an opponent gain an attack die be a losing move?

I like the armor simplification but the extra AC modifiers seem weird.

>>51065537
Fresh and spicy.

>>51065312
In my TSR Trove...

I completely redid Chainmail 3rd print from scratch, and it now matches the format of the OD&D Premium Editions (which are also on there). And I even did a whitebox version that is made from the Premium Editions, but changed back to all the 6th print version including what WOTC removed.

bit<dot>do/TSRTrove

Then I have white background covers of all these so they can be printed on colored paper.

bit<dot>do/HomebrewDesign

>>51065501
Isn't it here

https://mega.nz/#F!7xdGUDaR!DAHjel-07Eq__KdJAHPgXw!ngFxWJRJ

>>51065595
No only the first edition of it

>>51065591
>Wouldn't making an opponent gain an attack die be a losing move?

I'll need to reword that.

>I like the armor simplification but the extra AC modifiers seem weird.

This is somewhat intentional; I want the stats of all characters to play in to what equipment they use, not just fighters.

>>51065591
>>51065605

This is exactly my point, we live a shitty world where fat grongards repackage D&D dozens or hundreds of times to resell like your mothers rotten cunt to every sailor on shoreleave.

We should just bann all retroclones and tell those shitty fucks that if they don't like how we play D&D they should just fuck on back to pathfinder and leave us to proper discussion of the original and best edition of D&D.

>>51065644
Better WotC should actually do their fucking jobs and rescind the OGL, then we wouldn't have to deal with Pathfinder or the endless stale retreads of chetoos-stain personal wank material called OSR.

>>51065520
>"Wunderkammer" system
Sounds cool. Does it basically entail buying weird shit like mummified crocodiles, human-skin belts and huge bits of coral for your weird-crap cabinet and then the cabinet counts toward the value of your lab, or something?

>my tablet got stolen last week
God dammit, hate that. Sorry to hear it, OSRbro.

>Familiar rules
I missed these, kinda skipped a bunch of threads when they got all spergy there for a bit. Standard familiars, or is it more like a historical-style familiar-spirit thing where their main function is to help you with spells?

>dat map
I like the Kirby Krackle coastline and the Western ship a lot, but the dating is almost certainly off; it shows the flag of the Hospitallers over Mdina and apparently Valletta on Sciberras in the Grand Harbour, which makes it post-1570. Even if those are just supposed to be the forts that still dates it to post-1530 when the Order took over the island.

>>51065644
>proper discussion of the original and best edition of D&D.
So, not AD&D.

>>51065592
Thanks! I don't have a Lulu account and don't know diddly about how to put up private books, though. (Plus, I already have a PDF edition of Chainmail, I guess I was unclear but I was asking for a digest print like the one Anon posted for OD&D and the supplements a few threads back)

>>51065738
>Better WotC should actually do their fucking jobs and rescind the OGL
they legally can't rescind either the OGL or the SRD

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>>51065644

>it's an 'anything I don't like is pathfinder' episode

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>>51065644

>>51065979
I'm sure the new american administration would be happy to give an american company sole market dominace.

>>51065501
So since I started the topic, does anyone have a scan of the Second edition Blood & Treasure Monster book?

can an open world sandbox game be properly run in OSR?

>reading The Horde
>a paragraph or two of clever material sandwich between dozens of pages of boring encyclopedia entries

Is this just a hallmark of 2e FR? I don't remember Maztica or Ravenloft being this bloated.

I like the traditional d20 vs target AC combat system, but is there a way to avoid the endless AC inflation that happens at later levels?

>>51066336
>can an open world sandbox game be properly run in OSR?
...Yes? That's the default assumption.

>>51066345
man have you even played games that aren't modern d&d
so many don't have that

>>51066358
I am a 3.5 babby and reading a few OSR books including AD&D I was under the assumption it was tailored for dungeon crawls and modules mostly.

>>51066345
>traditional d20 vs target AC combat system
Ascending AC ain't traditional.

>is there a way to avoid the endless AC inflation that happens at later levels
Make modifiers smaller, set up a hard limit (like AC 30 or something)

>>51066372
Traditionally dungeon crawls are aimed at low and high levels. Mid levels get tasty wilderness adventures and hexcrawls. And of course AD&D 2e kinda abandoned the dungeon crawl as time went on. There's a reason WOTC tried to hype the "BACK TO THE DUNGEON" meme.

>>51066372
Oh, I get it. Well, the explanation is that old-school D&D kind of expects you to center your game on one central megadungeon with a hexcrawl around it, with no "plot" or anything like that in evidence (story is created by the crazy shit players get up to -- obviously NPCs will have motivations and do things as the game goes on, but not in a way where you're obliged to give a fuck). So, the two things gameplay focuses on is dungeon exploration and wilderness exploration. In original D&D ("OD&D", "LBB") there's a clear expectation that characters will level up into rulers of provinces and commanders of armies in a wargame, basically, and of course that involves hexmaps and shit extensively. But yeah, absolutely the dungeon play is also crucial. In the base style, that is -- you don't have to use it.

Modules, though, are actually something that never really sat totally well with the creators of the game themselves, and were produced mainly because they sold like hotcakes, since it ended up that lots of players were babbies or literal children who couldn't make good campaigns on their own. Old-school rules are not really optimized for module play at all.

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>>51065744
>Sounds cool. Does it basically entail buying weird shit like mummified crocodiles, human-skin belts and huge bits of coral for your weird-crap cabinet and then the cabinet counts toward the value of your lab, or something?
Basically, yeah. I'm also writing up a Carousing-style "complications" table for it, and granting XP. Penalties are a little harsher, since you're getting more out of it, but I was having real problems with the Magic-users (and other nerds) falling behind the rest of the party in XP simply because the player didn't feel that riotous partying was in-character. And now I have players in bidding wars over two-headed calf skeletons and shit, so it's all good.

>Familiar rules
Semi-historical, semi-spirit stuff. Basically natural animals are easier to bind, but ultimately more limited and fragile; supernatural familiars are harder to find and harder to keep but more useful. I'm also referencing hte Homunculus rules from England Upturn'd, with an eye to Khoura from Golden Voyage of Sinbad instead of Kabbalah.

>Map dating
Yeah, I wasn't certain of the exact date, since it came up in an academic discussion of ship designs, and the Knights of Malta aren't exactly one of my specialties.

>>51066336
>can an open world sandbox game be properly run in OSR?
Absolutely. So can a pointcrawl. It's all about how you present shit.

>>51066345
See LotFP's combat rules for one way to avoid it (Fighter is the only one to get additional bonuses to-hit, various weapons ignore some or all armor, no +AC magic items). HP bloat is still an issue, but you're not dealing with the geometric effect of unhittable characters with more HP than a stone tower.

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Since we're talking about it, what game has your favorite Cleric + Cleric spell list?

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>>51064209
It's cool that you're doing this. I just don't know OSR well enough to write anything.

>As arcanists advanced in level, they gained access to a greater number of arcs. These arcs equated to the number of spell levels that the caster could cast in a single day. In addition, an arcanist’s level dictated how deep into the weave he could go for spells (the maximum level of spell he could learn or cast).

From Netheril: Empire of Magic. An interesting variant of the traditional M-U. Clerics use the same system but with winds/wind depth instead of arcs/weave depth.

>>51066512
I really like DaS's magic systems. Pyromancy in particular can be dropped in almost any campaign.

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>>51065644
Cletus, look at all them kids on your lawn!

>>51066658
He's a cuck

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>Murder
>Killing any creature in Karsus imposed a steep penalty, normally the loss of the guilty party’s own life. Unlike most cities, however, even the death of a cat could prove a fatal offense (archwizards got very upset when their familiars were slain).
>Archwizard Ruler: This entailed a painful, torturous death and the resurrection of the offender. This cycle was continued (varying the death each time) until the creature’s body could no longer be brought back to life (a failure of a Resurrection Survival or System Shock roll). Then the criminal was reincarnated and then forced through a planar conduit into the Elemental Plane of Fire.

>>51064256
Check the DMG, natural weapon speed factor depends on size category.

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>>51064166
>What are some good classic TSR modules?
I'm partial to the S series--Tomb of Horrors, White Plume Mountain, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth--though they're pretty special snowflakey, for good or for ill.

Question for Encounter Tables Anon, whenever you might appear: what's up with the low HD in your Great Wall table? I didn't see anything going above 4, even for the giants, immortal warriors and such.

Also, what do you use to make your PDFs? I'd like to be able to make some simple ones, too.

>>51066619
I was referring to OSR systems, but I'd love to put a Sunlight Spear style cleric spell in my homebrew.

>>51064396
You said it, it's just a meme really. Many people don't want to add the skill system magician (thief) into their games and stick to the original three of Fighting Man, Cleric and Magic User.

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How should ancient magic scrolls and towers be handled in a setting where most magic these days either comes from a quartet of prestigious arcane schools or passed down from tribal chants, hymns, and introspective spirit quests with nature.

>>51067364

Well, to tell you the truth I think most monsters and encounters should be geared to low level characters, so that anyone can pull out the encounters list and go to town.

Secondly? My not so solidified rules don't involve people doing much more damage or getting much more health at higher levels, so I don't like inflating health pools too much.

Maybe I'll make a high powered monster or encounter list, just for you.

My program is open office. Just a shitty littlw thing with the ability to have columns and export to pdf

>>51064396
It's really about pulp S&S stereotypes. The Cleric was invented as a Van Helsing figure to deal with a specific gameplay problem (viz., Sir Fang) in Blackmoor, which was pretty wobbly and even silly (Super Berries, Blue Bill, Marfeldt the Barbarian, I could go on) thematically, so clerics don't have much of a basis in the fiction, albeit they have much better *mechanical* underpinnings in OD&D. Thieves and rogues are everywhere, however, much like warriors and magic-users are. So in that way the trifecta makes a lot of intuitive sense.

>>51067541
>My program is open office.
Oh, OO can do PDF conversions/save as PDF? I guess I'm downloading that now, then.

>>51067541
Oh, also, I don't really need high power encounters. I was just curious about your thinking.

>>51067575
So can LibreOffice, which is better.

>>51067638
>better.
Explain.

>>51067654

It's a fork of OpenOffice. OO has stagnated, the community all jumped ship to LibreOffice.

>>51067654
http://www.howtogeek.com/187663/openoffice-vs.-libreoffice-whats-the-difference-and-which-should-you-use/
Basically, LibreOffice can steal all the good features from OpenOffice, but not the other way around. LO development is also faster than OO.

>>51067513
They're sudden and chaotic. Their effects are greater when wielded by those outside of modern magical traditions because their minds have not been tainted by fail-safe programming.

>>51067654
As an example of what the above are talking about - LibreOffice can save as a decent version of .docx, while OO.org fails miserably without extensive plugin fuckery.

>>51067994
OO.org is dead, man, it's Apache OO now.

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>>51065759
Only True AD&D can be superior for only True AD&D encompasses all rules from the 1970s into the next millennium.

>>51068042
>the original True AD&D claimed that the WotC takeover was the cutoff point
>in other words this one's demonstrably not the same guy
This is some Subcomandante Marcos type shit.

Wow, Ronin's Challenge is really fucking weird.

How many other adventures have the boss fight be all your PCs controlling a single dragon while fighting a giant head that spits streams of bones? It's pity the set-up is so boring though.

>>51068075
I've been the Prophet of True AD&D since 2007 at least. Summer of 2000 has always been the cutoff. WotC did nothing to harm 2E until they destroyed it in order to sell an inferior ruleset (3rd edition). Lorraine Williams was the villain. This is our doctrine.

>>51067587

Oh you done it now boy.

>>51068161
>there has only ever been one Subcomandante Marcos, the mask is Marcos
Yeah yeah, I know.

>>51068161
Yay, for Gygax did return in Dragon Magazine Annual after the defeat of Lorraine Williams by the superior monies of Wizards of the Coast. And lo, did Gygax finally speak to the fans once more as a game designer, and reveal secrets of Castle Greyhawk. For the Lump was dead, and True AD&D could finally continue unfettered—until WotC became turncoats and destroyed True AD&D. But True AD&D can never die, and is now immutable. Only House Rules can threaten it.

True AD&D is a Platonic Form and the AD&D we play is but a shadow of its ideal concept. One may only approach True AD&D asymptotically.

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>>51068183
>One may only approach True AD&D asymptotically.
Which I do through the Heartbreaker. And thus the Heartbreaker is at once the Truest of the Deeundees and the falsest.

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Give me your ideas for OSR fighter "feats"

>>51068253
Weapon specific feats
I.e. due to their martial expertise, fighters get extra benefits from a weapon other classes don't. Such as when a fighter wields a shortsword, he gets one extra attack per round or when a fighter uses a polearm and attacks a foe with (acending) AC above 15, is calculated as if it were 15.
tl;dr Fighter exclusive bonuses for each type of weapon.
Don't know how multiclassing would work with this idea tho.

Encounter Table Anon here again- any requests?

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various town/village festivals and observances?

So then, people of the OSR thread, should I make classes for this shitty homebrew I'm planning or do a pick'n'mix talent system like Godbound mortals?

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>>51068910
Vicious hares and bunny rabbits.

>>51068230
why did you post a picture of a vagina?

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>>51068910
Witches, and things associated with Witches

>>51068927

Just make a whole bunch of shitty specific classes. Whacko and weird but fun and engaging.

Don't even give an option for Fighters or Clerics. Naw man, you're a Shield Bearer or a Medium.

>>51068927
Specific classes all the way. I like them even though it's not the default way to go.

>>51064396
REMOVE THIEF

>>51066336
The classical LBB campaign is an open world sandbox wandering around the map from Outdoor Survival, with various features on the OS map being translated into castles and shit.

Speaking of classes; do people prefer more generalist traditional classes (Fighter, MU, Cleric, etc) or more really weird and specific classes (Torturer, Goblin Punch's Classes, etc)?

>>51064327
>Sits outside the perfect trifecta of classes (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard)
That sounds like nonsense to me. Perfect trifecta of classes is fighter, cleric, mage.

Its a perfect gradient of fighting ability to magic. Thief is the weird one out.

>>51070765
I like the core fm/c/mu, then weird stuff. I'm not too keen on dull inbetweens like rangers and archers, and screw thieves.

>>51070882
>Thinks Basic DnD got it right

The only case where that'd be true is in a system without any sort of skills. If it does have skills, you need a skillmonkey class, and that's thief/specialist/rogue

>>51071038
Or the fighter. Casters get the spells, martials get the skills.

>>51065501

NO SPOON FEEDING!

/osrg/ I fear I might have made fighters too powerful.

here's the thing. I created my own, slightly nerfed version of the weapon mastery rules from BECMI. Basically, using the same damage tables, but the attack bonuses being only +1 per mastery point, instead of +2 per mastery point like in the actual tables. I also removed the special maneuvers because everything there could be replicated by Mighty Deed of Arms, which I already gave to fighters.

Also, fighters only started with 3 weapon mastery points instead of 4, and every other class got nothing at level 1.
But I forgot to impose level limits to putting points in your weapon mastery.

So now, I have a level 3 fighter with rank 4 mastery in battle axes, and he is doing 1d8+10 per hit.

Should I do something about this or is this fine?

>>51071038
>The only case where that'd be true is in a system without any sort of skills.
remove thief, remove skills. I see nothing wrong with that.

>>51071344

You fucked up son.

Two methods;
>Method A
Talk to your players and tell them the origin of the mistake. Offer them full refunds on their weapon mastery choices thus far and let them spread their points around in the new less OP system.

>Method B
You can also instead keep the same system, but require that your weapon mastery only applies based on how high quality the weapon is.

So a regular woodcutting axe/tool axe weapon has a max of 1 Mastery. Battleaxes maybe get 2, 3 if masterworks. For him to continue getting his huge bonus at 4 mastery he'd need a truly exceptional axe. Something forged by the God of crafters or the blade of the axe is created from the permanently frozen ice from a glacier, which has the past million years been cutting through the world like a giant axe. Something similar to that can also trigger quests and 'bonus content' on your players side, which I think is cool.

>>51070882
Cleric is the odd man out, because there's not very good historical counterpart to it. Classically healing has been the field of wise men and magicians, so separating it from magic use in D&D feels odd, too. Thus the perfect trifecta is warrior, trickster (i.e. thief), and wise-man.

>>51071447
>historical counterpart
I find this argument very flawed. D&D is not a historical game. Not to mention someone already mentioned several historical examples earlier in the thread.

>>51071418
I think I'm gonna go with method B. Seems like the best solution.

>>51071447
I'd argue that the wizard (being an asshole) better fits the trickster role, and that the wise-man should be the one who unfucks your shit after a trip into death cave.

>>51071649
Perhaps? Jungian archetypes are Warrior, Trickster, and Wise-man/Sage mentor type, and when you think how these map to D&D classes I could see the argument for conflating wizard and thief into one class, and wizard and cleric into another class.

>>51071718
>Jungian archetypes
>map to D&D

why would you do that? What do these have anything to do with a looting dungeons game?

>>51071793
It's a re-enactment of the myth, descending into the underworld and facing death only to return with riches. The heroes gain experience and are reborn into stronger, wiser selves.

>>51071974
>The heroes gain experience and are reborn into stronger, wiser selves.
>wiser selves.
Friend, have you ever played D&D?

>>51071974
So basically the figter thief mage thing is by people who are reading way too much into an ex-wargame
While the fighter cleric mage are by people who actually understand how the game plays.

Besides
Nothing about the thief abilities imply trickster. Disarm traps and opening locks is his main in game job.

And since when are wizards actually wise? If were going warrior trcksters wise man shouldnt it be fighter thief cleric?

Thief is cancer. that needs removing.

>>51072064
Counterpoint: fuck you, I like Thieves.

>>51072064
It doesn't need removing if you stick to lbb, friend.

>>51068910

Things most likely encountered while wandering around a fantasy town.

Offense Defense Versatility
Fighter 3 3 1
Thief 2 2 2
Magic-User 1 1 3
Cleric 2.5 2.5 2

>>51072329
Fucking whatever, hopefully you can still read this.
It looked fine in the reply box.

You know what? Why do we need any other classes besides fighter?

Just have fighter, and at level 1 you pick between special skills, casting arcane magic, or casting divine magic as an extra. Now everybody is fighters!

>>51072042
Fighter Thief Cleric is actually a better approach thematically than Fighter Wizard Cleric OR Fighter Thief Wizard

>>51072362
yup, you got your healing, your thievery, and you keep the weird arcane magic unique and interesting solely in the hands of the monsters/villains/mysterious NPCs.

Thief/Cleric/Wizard, imo.

Only monsters just fight.

Why not remove all classes and just have "adventurer" and as you level up you pick from more fighting, more casting, more supporting, and more skilling?

>>51072826
Because those are choices, and choices lead to builds, and builds turn True AD&D into MMO boardgame storygame magical tea party swine food.

>>51072826
Skip the choices and just have 'em cast from scrolls and heal from potions. Everyone can fight and skill equally well, define the magical stuff by magical items.

>>51072826
Why just play GURPS but using a d20 instead of 3d6?

>>51072826
I do this in my Searchers of the Unknown games, though it's a bit less explicit. I allow players opportunities to learn various spells on adventures, though all spells can only be cast once per day.

>>51072891
How about a new series of magic item artifacts that you can only use one at the same time. These strange artifacts then give characters the ability to cast spells.
Or something like that?

>>51072904
Because having 10 "points" across10 levels is much simpler than 100+ points at character creation to distribute among skills, stats, magic, equipment, etc.

>>51072904
GURPS and BRP are really stuff grogs should get more into instead of trying to kludge/unkludge D&D.

>>51073107
Get.
Out.

>>51072971
Well, I more meant that you literally just use the same old treasure lists but let anyone use any magic item. Pippin wants to use the Palantir? Sure, go for it. Conan finds a Staff of Power? Let 'em blast some fools. They find a Scroll of Remove Curse? Well, that's a valuable party resource now that anyone can use (rather than having to keep the Cleric alive).

>>51073107
OD&D works pretty fine on its own, But I won't deny that Torchbearer and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy also look pretty sexy.

>>51073107
I generally prefer West End Games' D6 system myself when it comes to generic systems to tweak.

>>51073107
Generic Universal Role Playing System is a much less sexier name than DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS

And I pick my games solely on their titles so

>>51073107
Well, there is the problem that GURPS is shit, so that's something to consider.

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>>51064327
I like the idea of clerics who just write "fighter" on their character sheet, and are a battle priest, but in certain specific situations gain divinely granted powers. Their healing isn't quite as powerful, and they need to perform real healing (nonmagical-bind wounds and wash sores) to restore hitpoints.

to counteract the added powers, they have sworn an oath to never use edged or pointed weapons, because "a holy man may shed no blood."

that's about it

Hey, did the Raging Swan generator pdfs get uploaded to the trove after all? Can't seem to find any.

I'm working on a video-game inspired Boss Battle type thing right now, and looking for any feedback or ideas, especially regarding strength and organization.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18gCJGF8qm9qPoXFvhqvttrzj26AYa8ICeRqm3UcE0o0/edit?usp=sharing (Doc has commenting enabled)

>>51072085

I'm with you, Clerics might be better mechanically, but they're a poor fit for a game about ruin-running grave robbers.
Have Doc Grognard's argument in favor of thieves, or "Why one old fart thinks another bunch of old farts are Wrong about the Thief in OD&D", in five posts:

http://docgrognard.blogspot.co.nz/search/label/Thieves

>>51072085
Thief is the best class. Fuck the haters.

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>>51072826

>>51073824
If we're talking thematically (and I don't usually talk thematically, since mechanics are more important) then the problem with the thief is that there is no reason reason why a fighter can't learn thief skills. Or why a thief can't be good at fighting.

I can think of several thematic reasons for having wizards being noodly armed wimps, or why heavily armed crusaders of the faith go into ancient dens of evil, but none explain why a dude that is good at fighting doesn't eventually learn how to deal with traps that he faces on a daily basis.

>>51073902
Not bad, but I'd put spells into categories (like healing & buffing, attack spells, divinations etc.) and you'd get to pick a category where you then roll randomly. That way you get some direction where to specialize in.

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So now we've upgraded the Grand Cleric debate to the Grand Cleric and Thief debate.

I'll break down how I see it.

Fighter: Not a problematic class, never has been.
Mage: ditto (let's ignore the martials vs casters problem in later editions of dnd. I've never had a problem with that in Odnd due to mage's more strictly limited hp and defenses.

Cleric: With blaster-type spells, becomes a mage/fighter hybrid. Problematic to adjucate religions, and odd that medieval Europe-analogue has 12 differant churches. (can fix this by limiting spells to protection and healing, can fix multitheism by resorting to saints instead of christ versus Baccob versus elbereth gilthonial)

Thief: I like thieves, but they are problematic. In odnd supplement one, the thief class is the first class which must roll for its abilities (pick pockets, find traps, hide, etc.) This needs fixing if you assume fighter's can't climb, since thieves can.

What I generally do for thieves is give them a GREATER chance to climb or hear noises through a door than other classes. Of course a fighter can do those things just fine.

Then, I have things which make sense as thief only abilities (disguise for assassins, pick pockets for grifters, open locks for burglers, move silent/hide in shadows for any thief worth his pay)

>>51074073
What's stopping a magic-user from creating a spell that knits flesh back together?
And the cleric class assumes a catholic style religion. I doubt a cleric of Anubis would be healing people.

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>>51074115
>hating on thieves.
>universally praise the LotFP Specialist.

>"everyone should be able to do the thief's skills."
>"only fighters should be able to fight. only M-Us should know magic."

>"skills ruined muh D&D."


some of you fucktards are unreal.

>>51073824
Graves are full of undead though, so they're a more useful specialist.

>>51074160
>And the cleric class assumes a catholic style religion. I doubt a cleric of Anubis would be healing people.
you're confusing cleric with "priest". Clerics are crusaders. They hit people in the head with a mace, wear heavy armor. You don't have to pick "cure light wounds at all".
A cleric of anubis could pick curse spells or whatever instead, and obviously they would control undead instead of turning undead.

I think a big problem is that people think "cleric? that's like a magic user that heals, right?" which is just wrong.

>What's stopping a magic-user from creating a spell that knits flesh back together?
balance. Having both offensive and support spells greatly increases the importance of a mage.

>>51074160
>What's stopping a magic-user from creating a spell that knits flesh back together?
Any m-u worth the name is going to think, "I wonder, could I create a spell that knits flesh back together?" and continue on to," Forming it into terrifying abominations against nature?" and eventually arrive at creatures in vats.

>>51074242
I don't like this obsession with role protection that /osrg/ has either. I see nothing wrong with the cleric or the dwarf or the halfling being able to fight as well as a fighter of similar level. Or having a class that can cast and fight. It's why I'm not a fan of LotFP which its "strict role protection" bullshit that ends up fucking over every demihuman and making the cleric into a wannabe white mage.

I've noticed people take LotFP assumptions as what everyone else is playing. Notice how no one mentioned turn undead as a cleric ability?

>>51074242
Little curious about LotFP since I've never looked at it. What's the difference between the Specialist and a Thief in any other system?

>>51074363

He's as good at fighting as any non-fighter class. He can be pretty good at a skill or two right from first level. You can use his skill system to turn him into different kinds of character from sneak-thieves to assassins to rangers to scholars. It's a simple and flexible class.

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>>51074363
LotFP has a small Skill set. Everyone has a 1-in-6 chance to do anything. The specialist gets to allocate points into any skill(s) of choice. He's also no worse at combat than others (aside from Fighters). Also, none of that d4 HP bullshit.

You wanna create a traditional Thief? Invest in Sleight of Hand, Tinkering and Stealth, etc.
Wanna create something more original? Invest in the relevant skills. It's pretty simple and elegant.

>>51074255
>They hit people in the head with a mace, wear heavy armor
Sounds like a fighter.
>You don't have to pick "cure light wounds at all".
Clerics have access to all clerical spells. Sure in the interest of RP they could choose not to use it, but nothing is actually stopping them.
>I think a big problem is that people think "cleric? that's like a magic user that heals, right?" which is just wrong.
No, I think "cleric? that's like a fighter that heals, right?"
>balance. Having both offensive and support spells greatly increases the importance of a mage.
But that's only if the cleric is still in the game. And a MU still has to find those spells unlike a cleric that gets them all automatically.
I don't see how a MU learning cure light wounds is impossible, but every fighter learning how to lockpick makes perfect sense.

>>51074255
>A cleric of anubis could pick curse spells or whatever instead, and obviously they would control undead instead of turning undead.
This also means you would have to create a slightly different cleric class for every type of god in your world. A cleric of Poseidon isn't going to turn or control undead.

>>51074606
I'm >>51073287 and I solve the problem of clerics having access to too many spells by making clerics either mages or fighters. Instead of having the cleric class, its a role. Mages can heal, although healing is adjudicated to required physical care first, which might be augmented by magic but never replaced. Clerics swear an oath to destroy the evil and unclean (demons and undead) and to never use edged weapons, (in my rules mages can use swords, though they are weaker than fighters-see gandalfandalf) Multi classing is possible, but it increases your xp required, and mages can't cast 90% of spells while wearing armor, though they can wear it and benefit from the ac. Essentially the only spells castable while wearing armor are ones which effect your own armor, body, or weapons.

Clerics are not neccesarily healers at all, unless they pick the magic user class and take healing spells. In that case, they learn spells as a magic user, and must keep a spellbook. IF the cleric is a fighter, they don't have spells.

All clerics have divinely granted abilities of a very limited nature, such as detect evil and detect lies, and a duty to their religion. Hell, even thieves can become clerics.

>>51074242
Yeah, well, Lamentations sucks.

>>51074606
>No, I think "cleric? that's like a fighter that heals, right?"
And they are so close
The correct answer is
>it's a person that can fight, cast support magic and turn undead.

The thief meanwhile is
>oh, the guy that for some reason, is the only person that can learn how to disable a trap and how to pick locks

>But that's only if the cleric is still in the game.
No? M-U being able to get all spells ever would make him stronger, regardless of there being a cleric class in the first place.

You guys want to talk about flavor or whatever but that's pointless because everyone is using a different setting. D&D is not meant to be used to any and all settings freely without adapting the classes.

Mechanically however, having a class that has access to support magic and can fight a bit, while having another class that can't fight at all but has access to the most powerful offensive magic makes perfect sense.

Why isn't Turn Undead just a spell?

>>51074805
>D&D is not meant to be used to any and all settings freely without adapting the classes.
On the contrary, D&D is elegant enough that all settings should be adapted to it instead of the other way around.

>>51074779
Except it fixes the entire argument against the Thief class.

the obsession some guys in the /osrg/ have of trying to change what ain't broke is getting annoying.

Like if in your personal setting you think class X makes no sense, sure remove it. But don't come argue about how that is the way it should be or whatever. D&D has several setting assumptions, and if your own differs, please don't talk here as if everyone is following your assumptions.

>>51074821
because then it would never be used
>memorise turn undead with your 1 spell per day in the hope of meeting an undead you can use it on
>or memorise cure light wounds, because you know someone is gonna get hit

no choice at all.
Also makes clerics weaker for no reason.

>>51074834
it also goes way too far in the name of dumb role protection and glorifies fighters for no good reason.

>>51074821
Because that makes the cleric shitty?

>>51074910
Caster supremacist detected.

>>51074885
That's just the first level(s), you get more spells later on. And if you're going to explore a tomb it's pretty certain there's gonna be undead about.

>>51074910
In fact it goes against role protection by offering the flexibility to do things to everyone. It's the specialist not fighter that shines under that system.

>>51074805
I don't see how rolling clerical and arcane spells together makes the MU overpowered.
The DM has a lot of power over what spells a MU gets. Complete power if there is no spell research.

>The thief meanwhile is
I'm not actually one of the guys going for a Fighter-Thief-Wizard only game. I'm just not a fan of the cleric class.

>>51074885
>Hey why do some people think Fighter, Thief, Magic-User only is better?
>Because x,y, and z
>STOP PUSHING YOUR BULLSHIT OPINION ON US.

>>51074940
and here we see the real reason people over-praise loftp. Trauma from 3.pathfinder. Wish people could learn to let it go. the b/x 4 classes are pretty well balanced, with maybe the thief needing some buffs.

>>51074943
not every dungeon is a tomb
in fact, undead are rather rare compared to other monsters in the usual wandering monsters tables.

>>51075056
this argument literally started because people were saying the cleric was bad and should be removed. It got turned around into people shitting on the thief. And I'm complaining about both things.

>>51075104
>not every dungeon is a tomb
Not every spell need to be useful at all times.

>>51074479
I never understood what those diagrams on the bottom were.

>>51075148
>Not every spell need to be useful at all times.
Considering that turn undead may not even work, it is always a worse choice than picking CLW.
I also see no reason to remove class features. Like why do you think it should be a spell? Other than "it feels wrong"? Like, a real, mechanical reason?

>>51074821
It is in LotFP. I guess it's "balanced", but what's stopping someone from just making a bunch of "Turn Undead" scrolls and spamming them?

>>51075104
>this argument literally started because people were saying the cleric was bad and should be removed
No it started by someone saying "some people don't have clerics in their game", then someone else said "I like that idea. What do other people think about not having clerics?"

>>51075183
Making it a spell instead of class feature allows other classes to use it, basically. A wizard abjuring demons and undead is fitting for their role as masters on unnatural.

>>51075269
>Making it a spell instead of class feature allows other classes to use it, basically
But why would you want that?
And wizards already can do stuff similar with circles against evil and so on.

There are actual spells that are similar to turn undead anyway, like dispel undead. Turn undead is a class feature given to clerics to increase their power against undead. There's no reason to weaken them like that.

At the very least if you want to make it a spell, allow clerics to cast it for free.

>>51075177
The max lvl spells you are able to cast.

>>51075177
I know fuck-all about LotFP since I find it thoroughly unappealing, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're supposed to mark in as many dots as you can cast spell levels? The clerical star has seven points and the m-u star nine, see, and that corresponds with the common non-LBB spell levels.

>>51073107
Gurps is just a shitty meme

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Thoughts on expanding Turn Undead into a DCC-esque "Turn Unholy" that can be used against Demons and the like?

>>51075318
>At the very least if you want to make it a spell, allow clerics to cast it for free.
Nothing should be free in OSR as it goes against the main mechanic of the game, resource conservation.
(Unless it's the fighter's arm, that can always attack and never ever gets tired.)

>>51075320
in the same space one could just have
>Lv1:__, Lv2:__, Lv3__,
and so on
would be simpler and more practical since you could also list how many spells you can cast instead of just the max level.

>>51075350
You could just write that in the triangular spaces next to the points.

>>51075346
I hope you're being ironic, it's hard to tell in the /osrg/ these days

>>51075269
>A wizard abjuring demons and undead is fitting for their role as masters on unnatural.
>muh wizard master of all things magic
>and things magicish
>and anything they can describe using complex magibabble
>basically if it's not swole it's theirs

>>51075380
but that would look messy, wouldn't it?

>>51075382
I... I don't even know myself.

>>51075403
I don't know. I'm just giving suggestions.

>>51075429
It would be fine if there was a space between the words "cast X spell
so you could put a number under it
but since it's too tight, it would look ugly

>>51074160
>>51074255
>>51074287
>>51074690
>>51075334
The thing people really need to recognize is the cleric's powers are deeply rooted in humanocentrism and the generic D&D setting.

Curing diseases, curing poisons, and healing are all something that tie into human fears about mortality. Lycanthropy is also human-only in older editions.

The undead-hunting/turning aspects ties into most dangerous undead having human origin. Vampires, liches, and even wraiths (who only spawn from dead humans).

Clerics fit in the game as religiously diverse members of a non-denominational militant/auxiliary order dedicated to the protection of the human race as a whole.

Clerics work best when opposed by Chaotic Anti-Clerics, IMHO. With the Anti-Cleric being the one to get the reversed spells, so they can't heal but can harm.

But that might just be because OD&D's Evil High Priests are fucking rad.

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>>51075229
>what's stopping someone from just making a bunch of "Turn Undead" scrolls and spamming them?
Money and time, mostly. Also scrolls are vulnerable. But frankly, I see no problem with players throwing money down that particular hole, any more than I do with a lower-level MU being able to make (and use) a scroll with a 4th-level spell on it. Further, since it Turns >everything< Chaotic, it's useful against shit like hostile Elves, M-Us, and demons, not just the Undead.

>>51075334
>Thoughts on expanding Turn Undead into a DCC-esque "Turn Unholy" that can be used against Demons and the like?
So, uh.. you probably want to check out LotFP?

>>51075403
>>51075380
>>51075457
Here's an alternate character sheet. I'll post one of Logan's in a second.

>>51075581
>the generic D&D setting.
Yes, the classic classes are all based on the generic D&D setting.
Obviously, if you make your own unique setting that doesn't have the same assumptions as the generic D&D setting, then sure, change the classes.

But the classes all also have a mechanical reason to be there so unless you're doing some serious rebalancing, then make sure you redistribute all the abilities around to your new classes.

Ideally you'd have something like
>fighting man, hybrid support magic user, offensive magic user, skillmonkey. The names can change, the fluff can change, but mechanically, the typical dungeon crawl assumes all 4 of those are present.

I disagree with having only one magic using class that has all the spells.

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>>51075746
Larger sheet with more spell space. Still has the diagrams for spell levels though.

>>51075746
turn unholy is better than turn chaotic.
Elves being turnable is something that only makes sense in the loftp assumed setting of "elves are assholish fae" instead of D&D elves.

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>>51075581
It all comes back to the generic D&D setting and its assumptions, doesn't it?

Like the thing with the Thief, where people are asking why only Thieves can learn how to pick locks instead of everyone as a common skill and probably don't even think on the setting assumption that locks are that commonplace. In the British fantasy RPG Dragon Warriors (which is otherwise heavy on dungeon crawling or 'underworld adventuring' as they called it) lockpicking was a specialized ability of the Assassin class, who wasn't even in the basic game, and it says that in the very medieval setting of the game most people would rather bar their doors when they turn in for the night and thus expensive mechanical locks would only be really found guarding the stuff of very wealthy merchants and burghers.

>>51075778
Hah. I made that.

>>51075746
>So, uh.. you probably want to check out LotFP?

No one should ever do this.

>>51075991
You're right!
People should check ACKS instead?
Have you heard the word of the Adventurer Conqueror King System today?

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>>51076039
You guys talking about BFRPG, the most underrated OSR system available?

>>51076039
I like ACKS but the amount of shilling it's getting in these threads is probably just going to drive people away from it.

>>51075767
>the classes all also have a mechanical reason to be there

They really don't. You're just pushing a meme created by Gygax when he tried to "fix" OD&D via AD&D.

>make sure you redistribute all the abilities around to your new classes.

No. If I don't want healbots around in my setting then they won't be a class.

>fighting man, hybrid support magic user, offensive magic user, skillmonkey

Unnecessary AD&D memes.

>the typical dungeon crawl assumes all 4 of those are present.

The typical dungeon crawl assumes the players aren't retarded, not that party has 3.PF's forced party composition.

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>>51075991

>>51076100
It's a joke. Not a very funny one, but still a joke.

>>51076120
>healbots
If you think clerics are healbots then you clearly do not understand the class correctly and should abide by the cheserton's principle. AKA don't change what you don't understand

>not that party has 3.PF's forced party composition.
lol once again, every time there are people bitching about classes its because they've been touched by the molesting hands of 3.pf.

>>51076205
>If you think clerics are healbots then you clearly do not understand the class
Fine, Mr. One True AD&D, in MY setting there is no healing magic that can be cast by mortals. It's all in blessed springs and groves and graves of holy folk. Therefore, no standard clerics and no healing abilities for anyone.

>lol once again
The idea that there are party roles that MUST be played was created in AD&D 2e but consolidated and strengthened in 3.x then 4e. Your "mechanical balance" meme is circular logic that says we should have these classes because AD&D had these classes, which is bullshit.

>>51076120
So now we have a "true OD&D" anon?
Neat, I hope you spawn as many memes.

Why do we need Hobgoblins when we already have orcs and vice versa?

>>51076308
OD&D had cleric
b/x had cleric

but sure, clerics are there for no reason, right? I play b/x and am going by how the game, including the dungeon tables, modules, and everything else is structured. They clearly expect the 4 classes.

Some modules even specifically say "the party is gonna have a bad time if they don't have all 4 classes".

Also I find it ironic you're making fun of true AD&D anon while behaving like him but for OD&D.

>>51076375
>goblins, orcs, hobgoblins
because tolkien used all those names to refer to the same species but people got confused.

Classes should just support different playstyles. Not "Hey Steve, you have to play X because none of us want to and we can't play without it."
If all four players want to be MU that should be just as valid as Fighter/Thief/Magic-User/Cleric.

>>51076403
I want one roughly man-sized antagonistic species for my setting but I just can't choose.

>>51076308
Even if you remove healing magic, there are plenty of other important spells on the hand of the clerics. And there's still a mechanical niche for a caster that can fight and use support magic.

Maybe give have the elves trade their arcane magic for divine magic. Call it nature magic or something

>>51076444
hobgoblins get the bonus of naturally cooperating with goblins (since they're related), so you have both the horde of weaklings type of enemy and the roughly equivalent to the pcs type of enemies.

>>51076474
>Maybe give have the elves trade their arcane magic for divine magic. Call it nature magic or something
Oh yeah, also reduce the amount of XP they take to level up, they only take so much more XP to level up compared to clerics, because arcane magic is markedly stronger than divince magic.

>>51076375
Hobgoblins:
>Lawful Evil
>have interesting racial/religious tensions with goblins (and sometimes bugbears)
>have functioning societies
>technology on-par with humans
>pretty smart
>can be negotiated with/bribed
>don't have a lot of fluff (Eberron and Kalamar are the only ones I can think of)

Orcs:
>Chaotic or Lawful Evil
>tribal raiders and/or hunter-gatherers
>less technologically advanced than humans
>pretty dumb
>religious fanaticism/racism
>hard to negotiate with or bribe
>have a shitton of fluff, 5-6 subraces, and adventures focused on them

>>51076390
>OD&D had cleric
OD&D also had monk. Where are my B/X monks then? Surely the system falls apart without them.

>>51076474
Sounds reasonable.

>>51075334
That's what Protection From Evil 10ft is for.

>>51076416
Agreed. Plus, 3d6 (or even 4d6-) down the line makes forced party compositions even more untenable.
>"You rolled the highest Int so you should go M-U"
>"But I have 12 Str and Con and only 8 Int"
>"You should go M-U so we can have a balanced party"

>>51076770
>OD&D also had monk.
and yet it was abandoned on b/x.
Maybe you should ask yourself "why was the cleric also brought to b/x?" and "why was the cleric one of the 3 first classes of OD&D"?

My point isn't that "the cleric is irreplaceable", or that you shouldn't remove it. It's that it was there for a reason, and the game was built on the assumption that it exists.

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>>51076504
>>51076770


That's true, but Orcs feel very iconic and versatile. Something about an evil asshole wizard with a castle and dungeon filled to the brim with traps and guarded by a bunch of shitty orc henchmen just feels right on a deep, deep level. But what also feels right is Hobgoblin slavers and Goblin Warg riders raiding caravans from an old abandoned watchtower. And I hate setting clutter so I need to make myself choose one or the other.

>>51076822
desu the m-u is the one that is easiest to live without
people tend to be afraid of that class these days but it's really the weakest one during the levels that matter.

>>51074479
It does seem simple and elegant but it also sounds like it makes the spec. kind of wishy-washy character. The traditional thief, as flawed as it was, was a scout and a means of removing environmental difficulties, like traps and doors. This version just seems like a miscellaneous class, a guy who does a thing well. He has no role other than being a character who doesn't fight or use magic.

And by giving everyone skills it effective breaks the OD&D tenant of vague potentially adaptable classes. If anyone else wants a crack at forging for food or solving a trap they now have a skill they have to go through. It takes from that vital element of player reason and sources it to the character sheet.

It's new school design but in the skin of OD&D. It's builds and feat walls (just called skills this time.) It doesn't want to admit it but it is a very modern design philosophy. It's a shame because modern design philosophy and OSR have a lot to offer each other but in cases like this where they only go halfway you end up with what is effectively 3.PF light.

>>51076894
Eh, Orcs really aren't that versatile. Gnolls can do anything they can do and arguably have more interesting fluff. Troglodytes can also fill the same role.

You know what, fuck you all. The only game people should be playing is b/x or a perfect recreation of it, and they should always keep all the classes, including thieves, clerics, elves, dwarves, and yes, even halflings.

if you setting doesn't fit those classes, you're not playing TRUE B/X

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>>51076894
>But what also feels right is Hobgoblin slavers and Goblin Warg riders raiding caravans from an old abandoned watchtower. And I hate setting clutter so I need to make myself choose one or the other.
Hobgoblins are what happens Orks breed naturally, instead of when wizards pump mind-control spells into artificial wombs to get controllable (if fractious) savages. "Ork" is just the Goblintish word for "Askari". Goblins are child soldiers, they have to survive a few battles before the hormone rushes let them finish growing up. If they pack-bond with a Warg, the goblin stays in the "puppy" state instead of the Warg *(see the theories on the retarded development of dog breeds like the Newfoundland)

>>51077112
>accepting the falsehoods of Moldvay

Absolutely haram. True enlightenment can only be found in Basic Dungeons & Dragons as revealed by Holmes.

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>>51076923
>The traditional thief, as flawed as it was, was a scout and a means of removing environmental difficulties, like traps and doors. This version just seems like a miscellaneous class, a guy who does a thing well. He has no role other than being a character who doesn't fight or use magic.
Have you read the skill descriptions? This allows a Specialist, at low levels, to be a guy who actually >effectively< removes obstacles, instead of a guy who blows a 15% lockpicking roll and dies to the poison needle his 12% Find Traps missed. Or an expert tracker and guide for a hexcrawl, who's not burdened by the dungeon-crawling BS. Or a seige engineer, expert at finding the weak points in walls, new construction hiding door to the medieval oubliette where someone lost the MacGuffin six centuries ago.

It also allows you to play the classic "second-story man" thieving role, while still having some bravos and a locksmith in the group, instead of every thief being a tiny faction of all the skills.

Statistical and situational modifiers make it so (to use your example) everyone can hunt or track in the woods, a guide just does it better. But if you get into the desert or Arctic, you better damned well have an expert along or your ass is getting lost and starving, if you don't die of thirst first.

Further, player reason is >explicitly< accommodated in the rules. If you solve the puzzle without using the skill, guess what? You done solved it. The skill applies to specific cases, not everything a party might encounter.


TL:DR read the fucking rules before you whinge about them.

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>>51077074
Trogs generally stay underground though, and when it comes down to it are just smelly Lizardmen. I'm fluffing them to be not-Sleestaks instead.

>>51077361
>TL:DR read the fucking rules before you whinge about them.
But I though the OSR was about rulings not rules?

>>51076444
>>51076504
>>51076894
>>51077074
>>51077160
clearly Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Orcs(and possibly some of the other Monstrous Humanoids) are just different Breeds/Castes/Stages of Life of the same base species;

http://mushroompress.blogspot.co.nz/2016/09/goblins-as-nasty-maggotmonsters.html

>>51077653
>>51077653
Nah, that's a lazy justification for pussies who don't want to cut "iconic" races out of the game.

>>51077966
I guess tolkien was a pussy
I mean he did call goblins and orcs interchangeably.

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>>51077653
That's certainly what I thought the first time I cracked my Blue Basic box back in the eighties. Especially since it was explicit in Tolkien.

>>51077618
Anon fingered his cyclopean pud, now the worn and leathery texture of the endless-ly screaming ice mummies of Patagonia most remote, as he restlessly sought another dose of the only thrill that made his mind blank enough to accommodate the unbearable bleakness of his gameless life.
"Eureka!", cried the half-man, half-shambling abomination, "I shall use a quote disingeniously, ignoring both its context and its meaning!". A throbbing rose in him, only, again, to be quashed by the soul-searing revelation of his utter insignificance. "Damnit, I guess I have to try to start another anti-dickgirl thread on /d/ today", he moaned..

>>51077986
way to get triggered by a harmless joke anon-kun

>>51077985
In Tolkien's writings, goblins and orcs are the exact same thing with the exception of uruk-hai. And Tolkien never wrote about D&D goblins, D&D orcs, and D&D hobgoblins, which are Gygax's creations. Conflating a pre-D&D idea to a post-D&D idea is also retarded on many levels.

You want to take creatures that aren't the same (goblins, orcs, hobgoblins) and force them into one race because you can't put your foot down and say "orcs don't exist in my setting". Worse, it adds to only one race (the base one) while making the others generic.

>>51077986
I expected someone to take my b8 but I didn't expect this level of assblastedness.

>>51077986
>cyclopean pud

This is the funniest thing I've read today and I have no idea why. Thank you. Thank you, >>51077986
and thank you, >>51077618

You've brought such joy into my life.

>>51077653

That's kind of how they are in the Crimson Tide setting, too.

>>51078196
>I expected someone to take my b8 but I didn't expect this level of assblastedness.

>I was only pretending to be retarded and you fell for it!
>By making fun of me you prove that u mad, just like the famous internet meme!
>so I win!

The comedy stylings of Anon, everybody!

>>51078507
Who is more more foolish, the fool who utters 9 words or the man who rebukes that fool with 103 words?

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>>51078082
>>51078196
>>51078256
Honestly, I'm not even mad, it's just that the phrase "Anon fingered his cyclopean pud" flashed before my eyes and it was too funny not to flesh out
hurrhurrhurr


In penance, I post images of the great crater of Nordlingen. Speaking of fun things to do, I once had a city built in a magical crater from the Godslayer wars, and the entire Elven Forest (AKA the Land of the Screaming Trees) was the result of one of the Godlings being buried beneath it and slowly leached of his life-force. Tied that mythos into Death Frost Doom many years later. The Sussurus is the last of the Screaming Trees, or at least the first one the players find.

>Select all images with trees
>man-faced tree from Scotland
That's not creepy AT ALL, Capcha.

>>51078587
The fool who uses 108 words, who isn't a fool at all.

The lotus opens.

>>51078587
Foolish fool spouting foolish
foolishness, just as I expect
of a foolish fool such as you.

>>51078603
>"Anon fingered his cyclopean pud"
I don't know what pud means

>>51076770
>OD&D also had monk. Where are my B/X monks then? Surely the system falls apart without them.
In BECMI, alongside the Druid and Paladin and Assassin and all the other fun OD&D supplement stuff. Although the Monk's called the Mystic and the Assassin the Thug, and the Druid's more the Neutral equivalent to the Patriarch/EHP rather than a separate class. And there's a new Chaotic Paladin, the Avenger, who is pretty rad but sadly only ever shows up in BECMI.

Remember, B/X was always intended to have more sets - the Companion set and leveling to 36 were both explicitly called out in Marsh/Cook Expert, for instance. It's just that stuff worked out so that Mentzer got to rewrite the line later.

Seriously though, there's only a handful of stuff from OD&D that didn't make the transition. It's kind of amazing, but I guess they had no other option since they were legally required to keep OD&D/Basic and AD&D separate.


Also,
>Orcs:
>Chaotic or Lawful Evil
>tribal raiders and/or hunter-gatherers
>less technologically advanced than humans
You're aware that Orcs started out as village-dwelling caravan-guarding warriors while Hobgoblins were literally just bigger cave-dwelling goblins, right? Even in the Monster Manual, when they start to get more detailed, they're both Lawful Evil (not CE until 3E!) and Orcs still have way more villages. And they actually build their own ones, rather than just living in ruins like the Hobbos do.

Basically, Orcs are from Isengard while Hobgoblins are from the Misty Mountains. And Samurai, I guess.

Might anyone be willing to share either The Guns of War and/or Encounters & Lairs for ACKS? I want to complete my collection...

>>51078587

A clown acts very foolish, but when he's done, everyone likes him more, not less. This is how he differs from you.

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>>51078627
Penis. Old Low germanic word, closely related to the Modern Yiddish "Putz". Originally meant a blunt, fleshy thing, which of course immediately mutated into "dick".

>>51078799
This anon speaks truth about the Orc thing historically. I just basically thought "Hobgoblin" was how they were getting around the trademark on Uruk-hai, honestly, but as I said I got started on Holmes Basic and didn't even see an Expert book until about three years after I got my 1e set.

>>51078799
>And there's a new Chaotic Paladin, the Avenger, who is pretty rad but sadly only ever shows up in BECMI.
Avengers looked sickrad. How come they never got picked up again?

>>51078615
>>51078622
>>51078881
Once there was a fool who uttered foolishness
Three wise men approached the fool to rebuke him
But then there were four fools

>>51078936

of course it was a dick joke
of course
I don't know how I didn't realize it

>>51078950
>>51078799
>Avengers
but they did appear again in later D&D

as a prestige class in 3e
and as a paragon path in 4e

Both as a way to get paladin powers for non-paladins. 4e version didn't have the chaotic alignment requirement tho

>>51078955

And another fool came along to utter nonsense, which he dressed up as wisdom. But none were deceived.

>>51078465
yeah, although it's done a lot more boringly there, which honestly describes almost everything about that setting

New guy here, managed to get a group of people (mostly new to tabletop) interested in playing and they're all open minded about systems. I've done a lot of stuff from AD&D to pathfinder to shadowrun over the years and was thinking about doing something a bit more streamlined and retroflavored.

I'm a fan of conan, darksun, and other low magic settings, but am willing to give anything a try. Any recommendations on a specific system?

>>51079133
my sugestions are:
B/X - the classic D&D, still works fine, though it has some layout problems

Adventurer Conqueror King System (ACKS) - has everything you might need, while still keeping thing very close to b/x, some people think it has too many rules
Lamentations of the Flame Princes (LotFP) - much lauded here, but also departs a bit from "classic" D&D too much for me.

If you have the time, read all 3 and choose for yourself. If you don't, grab any pdf copy of D&D basic and just go with that for a while.

>>51079133
For a more classic feel go for anything that might be suggested, like B/X or whatever, but for a more sword & sorcery feel try Crypts & Things. Good stuff.

>>51078989
Those aren't the Avenger, though. They're completely different classes who just happen to have the same name. The 3E Avenger is a Good Assassin, for fuck's sake.

The Avenger's a Chaotic Paladin (or, well, the Chaotic wandering Fighter subclass) who has to pay Chaotic Clerics to learn reversed Clerical spells, and can also Detect Evil (or, well, hostility) and Turn Undead with an option to control them instead.

The big thing, though, is that they aren't allowed to have human or demi-human hirelings - instead, they get the ability to charm Chaotic monsters. (Non-hostile reaction check + food/treasure + friendly reaction check/failed morale check in combat = Charmed)

Also:
>An Avenger may visit any castle, ruin, or dungeon known to be rules by an intelligent Chaotic monster or character and, using his alignment tongue, demand Sanctuary (see Knight, above). An Avenger may speak normally to rulers of other alignments and check for normal reactions. The ruler may be deceived, believing the Avenger to be a Knight (unless forewarning or some magical means reveals the Avenger's true status); if deceived, the Ruler will give normal Sanctuary.

Rad as fuck.

Here's the terms of Sanctuary, by the by:
>A Knight may visit /any/ castle, of any territory, and request Sanctuary. The castle owner must, by the customs of the land, give the Knight a place to stay for up to three days, along with food and drink. No friendliness need be shown, but the Knight cannot be Challenged, attacked, or refused Sanctuary. This custom is nearly universal.

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>>51079268
>>51079133
To expand on anon's suggestions:
B/X: Simple, classic rules. There's some differences between the sets (Moldvay, Holmes, Mentzer) but all have broadly similar goals. Kind of the "Mario", the standard by which we all judge. Some of the later books will retcon older rules.

OD&D: A magical, disorganized clusterfuck with about 90 pages of errata needed just to play. Fun but clunky.

AD&D: Also a disorganized mess (player saving throws in the DMG, anyone?), and vastly overcomplicated. It's fun to plunder shit from.

ACKS: Focused on pushing your players into a landed-lords role, and has a domain-management system designed for princelings seeking conquest in a frontier. "Classic" post-apocalyptic high fantasy. Rulesy but fun. Plays like a Lin Carter book or D&D fiction. Allows Renaissance play, but not the default assumption.

LotFP: Geared toward a more gritty, low-fantasy historical (Renaissance/Early Modern) horror vibe. Plays more like Solomon Kane or Clark Ashton Smith. Spells are swapped around or rewritten to make wizards more cursy, and less nukes. There are a bunch of unique spells, there's a different skill system that tends to make rogues experts in one thing rather than jacks-of-all-trades, and it assumes less magic items (especially ones that buff up stats) so the power curve is a little flatter. There's some cool rules systems and advice hidden away in the Tutorial book and various modules, especially Broodmother Sky Fortress and Vornheim. Adventures tend to have at least one Apocalypse Trigger in them, though it's usually hard to find, and magic is a double-edged sword. Ironically, healing is actually easier than in most versions of D&D.

All that said, LotFP is compatible with B/X and other D&D modules, and if you're cool with the departures I listed above it's an excellent system. If you're not, I'd probably recommend going with B/X and expanding into Rules Cyclopedia if you're crazy and your players live that long.

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>>51079531
Oh, and the LotFP "domain" rules are more geared towards your players becoming Burghers, merchants, or Manor Lords under patronage than towards conquest. Conquistador fun-times are possible, but will involve a little work on your part. Again, fits better with the Early Modern assumed setting, but not so well with a post-apoc exploration/conquest game.

>>51079268
>>51079459
>>51079531
Alright, thanks for the suggestions and the detailed explanations as well.

>>51079459
is there a pdf of this around?

>>51079883
mega

#F!joJg0Jab!kSEeBdnYMggHFFBsnzQ85A

>>51074821

It should be. It's honestly just as thematic if not MORE thematic then the Cleric cast.

You have to create a circle of salt, or burn special flowers for incense which repels undead. That's something a wise man or WIZARD can do.

To make it better, make it so you can choose any category of monster. Undead, Wild animals, gnolls, golbins, etc.

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I personally love all the bitching in these thread as of late.

So let me stoke the fires;

>Black powder weapons, yes or no?

>>51080330
What's the question?

>>51080330
FANTASY SHOULD NEVER HAVE GUNS, REAL MEN USE SWORDS (UNLESS THEY'RE DWARVES)

just kidding I don't care. Guns are okay I guess

>>51080330
Guns are fine.

>>51080257
I don't see the point in something being "thematic" if it becomes yet another reason people won't pick cleric even though the class is pretty good when not fucked with.

>>51080330
personally not that into them, but wouldn't be opposed to playing a game based in that sort of setting. Just wouldn't want to make them myself.

>>51080330
I like the "one shot per battle" thing that LotFP has, but I don't like having too many rules about it.

>>51080330
Depends.

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>>51080330
Fuck yeah. I love 'em.

>>51080330
>Black powder weapons
Are you a fucking idiot?
Obviously guns are magic items using bullets covered in minute runes that when triggered fly forward at extreme speeds.

>>51080510
>black powder is just ground up runes

>>51080330
Depends on the setting.

>>51064327
Well, my class breakdown would go like this.

>Fighter
Weapon and armor proficiencies.
Niche: Combat.
Trinket: An old war wound or badge.
Bonus: A "second wind" to ignore wounds or exhaustion.
Weapons: All.

>Wanderer
Familiar with fields, ruins, dungeons and taverns.
Niche: Exploration and social encounters.
Trinket: A set of dice, a deck of cards, a book of poems and lyrics for tavern songs.
Bonus: Always has a story to tell, to warn or to entertain.
Weapon: Daggers, clubs, slings, shortbows.

>Cleric
Unyielding faith, and a blessed weapon.
Niche: Combat, with the right preparation.
Trinket: A holy symbol, prayerbook, ritual scars or hairstyle.
Bonus: Can "smite" evildoers with faith and magically empowered strength.
Weapon: Any ONE/TWO. Hammers, maces, spears, etc.

>Mage
A spellbook and a lifetime of study.
Niche: Study and prep time can deal with most problems.
Trinket: A spellbook AND an official hat, brooch, ring, diploma or watch.
Bonus: Can prepare magical rituals to purify food, summon a familiar, imbue a wand/staff with magic....
Weapons: Daggers, clubs, staves and wands.

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>>51080634
Thieves: have skills lockpicking, pick pockets, stealth, find/disable traps. THey are completely not tied to level, instead thieves must learn them. Most start with one at 96% chance of success, and depending on what things the character focuses on, they can s;asldkjf;aslkfja;slkjf;alskkdjfas;lkjgasodjf;lksajf.


Guns don't exist in my setting, mostly because they would penetrate plenty of AC and I don't feel like adjucating that.

Well, except for guns from the ancient civilization 100s of years in the past. But those generally have 1 bullet at most, are extremely rare, and instantly kill anything effected by them.

More interesting are the cyberpunk weapons from said ancient civilization, like chainswords.

>>51080330
The original game had firearms in it.

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Kind of late in the thread; but I want to make a system that lets everybody (not just the fighter) sacrifice their attack a turn to either defend themselves/someone else better (improving AC for that turn) or sacrifice their attack to try and make the enemy take a save (such as a trip, throwing sand in their eyes, etc.)

What are some good mechanics to use for this? Don't just list games, I want the actual mechanics of doing this and how it works with the normal d20 ascending AC thing.

>>51081678
nobody cares about the actual D&D game here, people just want to play their own homebrewed abominations with minimalist class systems with feats, skills and their special snowflake super edgy mythos-wannabe settings filled with lolsorandumXD monsters, with a spaceship under every dungeon and shitty artifacts that impregnate their users, age them and fuck them in the ass (all in exchange for some minor bonus that isn't even useful)

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>>51081891

>>51081890
>sacrifice attack to do something else
never a good idea in literally any system ever. From video games to gurps to shadowrun to D&D (any edition) an ability that requires giving up an attack in a turn-based game is never going to be used.
go look at dungeon crawl clasics and steal their mighty deed of arms instead.

>Don't just list games, I want the actual mechanics of doing this and how it works with the normal d20 ascending AC thing.
I'm lazy someone else explain how the Mighty Deed of Arms works please

>>51081910
I may be needlessly confrontational but I'm not wrong tho

>>51081891
Sounds like late 70's and early 80's to me.

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>>51081933
I'm also lazy.

>>51078864
>Might anyone be willing to share either The Guns of War and/or Encounters & Lairs for ACKS?

I've asked a couple of times. They're both quite new so I assume nobody's gotten around to dewatermarking them yet.

>>51081891
I still care, and that's why I'm pretty happy that the thread turned out like this. Because now we're at least discussing why D&D is the way it is rather than just looking at anons "concepts" and houserules and humbly responding "yes, that seems nice, whatever works for your game".

>>51081891
Those artifacts sound rad.

>>51082149
you want to be impregnated and fucked in the ass?

>>51064327
It could work. I like the idea of making a clear and direct requirement for spiritual activity, and I like that his "magic" feels different from the wizard's--more spontaneous in some ways, because you don't have to choose effects beforehand, but with an interesting and different form of resource management.

Perhaps clerics of certain religions get one or two other things they can do with their faith dice (turn undead,

>>51064644
Extraordinary grace or agility usually requires great strength... look at the bodies of acrobats and figure skaters in action. That's what Achilles would look like.

Huge body builders may be able to bench press a huge amount of weight, but depending on their training, this doesn't always translate into having useful strength. The only asset it might bring them in a fight is pure mass.

And being a good lock pick has less to do with agility than it does knowledge... as long as your hands don't shake like a palsied grandmother, you can learn to pick a lock if you're dedicated to a skill. Fine surgery or elegant craftsmanship are the only things I can think of where.

Sorry, I forgot my point... truth is I keep the original six simply because it saves me from rejiggering stats in OSR compatible material.

>>51081890

I would suggest something like make an attack roll and maybe grant a bonus to doing just a disarm/trip/special move. That way the wimpy fighter with no bonus to-hit can at least have a better chance of slapping the sword out of the orc's hand so his fighter buddy can come and wreck him or something. I'm not sure though. Maybe give an option on a 19-20, a bit like a crit but instead of bonus damage it's a combat move? That lowers the chance to 10%.

>>51082285
>Perhaps clerics of certain religions get one or two other things they can do with their faith dice (turn undead)

I was actually thinking of this and like it. I also dig the evil anti-clerics from old DnD and a similar aspect could be done, maybe their faith dice can be used to curse people or control undead creatures. Maybe a cleric of a sea-god can roll as many faith die as he wants and can breath underwater for that many minutes per sum of all faith dice expended. This may be stretching too much into MU territory, so to keep it more spontaneous you could use miracles.

>Miracles
Clerics have the option to pray for miracles. Maybe a similar aspect can happen, expending Faith die based on the miracle's scope and difficulty. These could be used to 'get out of jail free' for hopeless situations, like being trapped in a pit or locked in a dungeon. Maybe it could be used for huge bombastic divine actions, like splitting a sea or causing night to become day for a time. These would need to be restricted based on the cleric's godly domain in some way.

>>51081891
>>51081951

>spaceship under every dungeon
What is Expedition to Barrier Peaks

>lolsrandumXD monsters
What is "an owlbear"

>mythos-wannabe
What is "any module involving any evil god"

>minimalist class systems
What is "the original class layout"

>feats
What are "proficiencies"

>skills
What are "proficiencies" and also "thief skills"

2/10 I replied but it's too obvious.

>I'm not wrong
Except in every way that matters, that's a true statement.

>>51082163
You literally just described my wife. It's a constant struggle, keeping her happy.

What's a good hard cap on AC? 18? 19?

>>51082592
Yours too, huh.

>>51082740
1. That way you can never have better than first class armour.

>>51082776
An excellent system, for a naval wargame.

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>>51082740
I use -10, but practically speaking that's the equivilant of 30 in your system.

My world contains the following armor
Leather, chain, plate. Plate: ac 3
shield gives +2 to ac
helm gives +1

So plate is naturally AC 0.
I don't really use magic armor, but dex can improve ac by 1. That's ac -1.

fighters can parry as per SnW, givint +1 to +4 to ac, thus reaching -5.

Monk AC is = to 10 - level. Max level is 12.
Thus masters have ac -2, or -3 with high dex.

>>51082901
>there is literally no better armour combo for a man to wear beyond dragonscale armour and shield
>nuh uhhh, my DEX is stacked! And my magic bonus is +10!

>>51082776

Descending AC is fucking retarded.

>>51083060
Target is 20, roll d20 + to hit mod + AC. Also, some monsters used the descending AC for mechanical effects, like a constricting attack that does your AC in damage (minimum of 1 point).

But you're probably just bad at simple subtraction and got ass-blasted.

>>51079133
>I'm a fan of conan, darksun, and other low magic settings, but am willing to give anything a try. Any recommendations on a specific system?
it's not out till August(assuming no delays), but the 2nd edition of Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea might be something to look into;

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1806106772/astonishing-swordsmen-and-sorcerers-of-hyperborea-0


besides that Adventurer Conqueror King System, Fantastic Heroes & Witchery, Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG, Whitehack, and The Nightmares Underneath are all good choices

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>>51078864
>>51081987

This Guns Of War? Not sure if watermarked or whatever, but its been kicking around for a while. Haven't even read it yet.

>an adventure where you help zombies and butcher gold dragons

I like this slade fellow.

Does it make sense to have up to +3 of your AC be from your body armor and up to +3 of your AC be from your helmet?

Or do people prefer the old fashioned houserule of 'each piece of armor you equip grants +1 AC up to a max' thing?

>>51083611
>Guns Of War
This was not on the trove, I would appreciate if the troveguy added it

also, does anyone have Lairs & Encounters?

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>>51072256

kind of already did this one.

>>51068910
A cursed oasis.

>>51083611
I think that's the kickstarter backer preview version? There's certainly a hell of a lot of (pg XX) references in it.

Regardless, thank you very much kind anon. Given I'm building an alchemy-heavy setting this is a huge help.

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For your viewing pleasure, here are the houserules Delta uses. Note, that I use essentially his rules, but I allow clerics of the christian faith.

>reading How The Mighty are Fallen
>slade tells you to convert your casters to AD&D 1e classes for "historical accuracy"

THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN

>>51084072
What does that actually accomplish for people that aren't specialist wizards?

anyone going to make a new thread once we hit page 10?

>>51084098
Netheril uses a completely different system of spellcasting from normal AD&D 2e, and the 1e classes are slightly different from 2e (clerics and druids are separate).

But it's also just a nice meta touch.