/osrg/ - Old School Renaissance General

>>51039664
>What's the most creative use of a rock you've ever seen during a dungeon crawl?
It's hard to say, seeing as how rocks are usually used to solve all problems.
>If you were to make a setting based on rocks, how would you do it?
Obviously I would run a setting where weapons never developed past throwing rocks at each other. Everyone knows they are the strongest killing machines known to man. I mean a simple pebble can one shot a peasant about 10% of the time! And fist sized rocks are just better versions of daggers!.

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>>51039664

>He used the rock image

I love you guys.

anyone here haves a pdf of silent legions and/or monte cook world of darkness?

>>51040115
Silent Legions was in the trove, when I last checked.

>>51040281
under what folder? i didn't find it

>>51039664

>What's the most creative use of a rock you've ever seen during a dungeon crawl?

Actually pretty recent event. In my current game of BFRPG the dwaft pushed a boulder down a slope where a skeleton horde chasing the party. Lovely mess of bones it was.

>>51040115
shit, I don't see it.

How do I upload a copy to the trove?

>>51040294
see>>51040466

>>51040294
Found it. Silent Legions in the Sine Nomine Publishing folder (I must have overlooked it)

Why do you like race as class?

>>51040452
One time we tell bandits, don't take rock. Beg them not to take rock. Eventually they gave up searching for our purse and took the rock.

I've almost finished writing up my homebrew retroclone.

Wish me luck! It has been exhausting, especially the stuff involving hp and experience points.

>>51041036
Most people like it because it makes non-human races feel more different. A lot of people say they like to play elves or dragonmen or whatever because they are more interesting then humans, but then they play them exactly the same as humans.
Race-as-class doesn't 100% stop this but it helps.

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>>51039664
Hot and fresh homebrew 4 (You)

>>51041036
Depends on the game/setting/whatever but generally because it really drives home the point that "these guys are alien and different and weird". Race-and-class tends to make everyone feel like a human who has point ears, etc.

>>51041036

It makes the races feel more like distinct cultures IMO. Basic wasn't great at doing this, but it was there. Games like Beyond the Wall and ACKS really embrace it and do it well. A Dwarven Runecaster in Beyond the Wall feels very different from a human magic user, unlike a Dwarf magic user in other systems.

What monsters can I throw at a first level party besides the typical goblins, kobolds, rats, and fire beetles? I don't want the first level of my dungeon to be a slog through enemies everyone's seen a million times before.

>>51041036
For more out-there races it works, though I do prefer races having their own subset of classes.

>>51041165
Giant centipededs

Crawlng slime

Bandits

undead chickens

Sheep

wild dogs

ghouls

lolipire

space fungus

a brain-like mushroom that seeks a symbotic relationship with an ambulatory being

>>51041148
>Many [wererock] families roam the underground by rolling down inclines, much like common rocks. In fact, this has caused many common rocks to be accused of being wererocks.


Gee, I must be really mad, 'cause I cannot stop laughing at this, you wonderful looney.

>>51040682
Thank you very much!

>>51041193
So basically any weird shit that I feel like?

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>>51041284
basically. If you're using standard oldschoool dnd type game, ehre's the stats for pretty much everything levels 1-3

1 to 3 dice of hitpoints
thaco18-19
single die of damage

interestiing special ability and habits

saves as a fighter.


Can be anything from a flying shart to an apple golem.

>>51041284
so long as the pcs have a fair shot at dealing with it in some way, yeah

>>51041318
And remember this aception of "dealing with it" includes outrunning, outsmarting and completely evade.

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>>51041318
and if its slow, "deal with it" can mean "wise up and run the fuck away."

>>51041158
>Games like Beyond the Wall and ACKS really embrace it and do it well. A Dwarven Runecaster in Beyond the Wall feels very different from a human magic user
I love both games because of this, is there any other retroclone with multiple racial classes

>>51041651
It's a setting book, but Red Tide has the Scion for elves.

When drawing your dungeon on a grid paper do you avoid making irregularly or oddly shaped rooms just to save yourself from having to describe those rooms to the mapper?

I was reading the Alice class in ARaPL, I liked how random it was, does anyone know more classes like this?

>>51041148
>werepebbles

>>51041174
>prefer races having their own subset of classes
I agree, and even just slight variants to the basic classes can make races feel infinitely more unique. Like giving new/uncommon spells to casters, or racial weapons and combat techniques for martial classes.

>>51041036
I enjoy it because it helps to minimize bloat, being easier to manage the unique features of a single race-as-class than having to combine the unique features of a race and a class. Unfortunately, this also means that sometimes characters can feel generic or similar (especially if multiple people, say, want to play a Dwarf). My group always tries to find ways to fluff race-as-class in ways that two people can play the same race and feel unique, but sometimes you just can't avoid that one stocky stone-midget is gonna fight the same way as another stocky stone-midget.

>>51041036
Having the two bundled together means that you can tweak each one to work just the way you like it, instead of having unintentional weird interactions between racial features and class features. It also lets the writers give a distinct flair to each race/class thing.

Some races can be stronger in the lore, but in game terms you can easily mitigate that for PCs by things like what kind of class features they have access to, or what their XP progression looks like. So we can have one race be particularly smart, but that doesn't have to mean they're the only sensible option for magic-users.

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>>51039664
I'm glad to see that OSR has finally recognized the awesome destructive power of a fist-size rock. I'm actually working on a semi-related GURPS supplement that you guys might be interested in.

>>51044043
Sweet! Now instead of having to use a dumb spear or something, you can use a stick that's just as powerful! It may be even more powerful because sticks are literally everywhere!

>>51044176

Imagine how broken it would be if you just gave magic users an unlimited supply of pointy sticks! I'm pretty sure that's a Tier 1 Pathfinder class in a book somewhere!

I'll try here then, does anyone have any experience playing some of the classic entry level boardgames (Dragonstrike, Heroquest) in Tabletop Simulator? I picked it up, in hopes of playing some of those games, but I can't find anyone who plays them. Fairly new to tabletop, would love to try those two out, always saw them in stores but never bought them.

>>51044274

>The Stickmaster
>With this brand new OC Donut Steel Class:
>Wield impromptu stick weapons, they're just laying around!
>Craft superior sticks from every day sticks
>Learn to throw sticks as a powerful ranged attack
>Craft special throwing sticks that return to the wielder
>Use sticks to build items that can allow you to overcome challenges
>Such as:
>Bridges made from bundles of sticks!
>Long sticks to increase jumping distance!
>Sticks to trigger traps!
>Sticks to provide heat and light!
>Sticks to build boats and power them!
>And much much more!

Too OP. Nerf please.

>>51044461
Nah that's fine. Magic-Users should always be better and have more options then any other class at all levels.

>>51044510
That's not an MU you great walrus.

>>51044510

Yeah, when will PF allow martials access to pointy sticks? Or is that "too anime?"
Oh god I can't stop, this meme is too funny

Does anyone have; Blood & Treasure 2nd Edition Monsters?

It's not in the OSR Trove

>>51044525
For some reason I assumed it was some MU-subclass that magically enhanced sticks.
Thanks for saying I'm great at least.

>>51042527
Yes, Zak wrote a bunch of similar treatments of base classes, they're posted on the blog, there's a tag for them but I forget what it is.

>>51044461
Sticks are too easy to acquire and completely destroy the resource economy of OSR. You have to add some sort of Stick-Eating Monster that can quickly rid a party of their valuable pointy sticks that they've come to rely on for all things, so that they are forced to come up with new ways of doing things.

There's nothing to be done about the stones, though. They're good for a high-fantasy anime tactical action game like 4E, if that's your thing, I guess.

>>51044848

Whatever you do don't let players combine them. The combination have superior bone breaking power, and grants immunity to spells with a verbal component.

>>51044536
It stopped being funny few threads ago.

Does anyone else want to give Rogues/Thief characters good bow/ranged weapon powers? I like the idea of making them like video game Rogues with good ranged/dagger weapons.

>>51044896

>a few threads ago

It only started at the end of last thread, dude. This meme was born last night, if you're trying to call it stale already I'm forced to wonder if you're just doing damage control because the thread is laughing at your position.

>>51044970
There was this exact same cantrip discussion a few months ago.

>>51045061

Sort of, but it didn't spawn the Overpowered Stone Rock thing until last night. The discussion a few months back was fairly reasonable; yesterday's took it to the point of ridiculousness.

>>51044970
I'm not >>51044896 but if you're referring to the guy who originally said for a rock to do 1HP damage it would probably be fist sized, that would be me. My reasoning was that I felt like it would be silly if it did the same amount of damage as a thrown dagger.
Not once did I say rocks are OP, I even joined in on that joke because I thought it was amusing.

>>51045147

Sure, I'm laughing at the other guy, who after the cantrip was nerfed to be roughly equal to picking up rocks and tossing them, was still arguing it was overpowered "3.pf cancer." Plus the idea of rocks being a scarce resource to be used carefully, and fighting in closets, and so forth
It was a good thread for goofy shit.

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Spurred on from discussion many threads ago; 50 ways to fluff magic missile.

>>51045666

[51] Caster picks up a fist sized rock and hucks it.

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So I asked this last thread, but that was when it was almost dead.

Which setting/game should I focus my creative energies on?
>Modern 'Weird' fantasy game with aliens, psychics, set in a single fantastical city. Classless 'neighborhood-crawl' style game.
>Traditional High Fantasy with unique combat moves and very generalist classes. Weird cosmology and gonzo cultures.

>>51045787
Could you expand on both of these?

>>51045787
>>Modern 'Weird' fantasy game with aliens, psychics, set in a single fantastical city. Classless 'neighborhood-crawl' style game.
Go for the stuff that hasn't already been done to death a thousand times. Nobody needs another fantasy heartbreaker, and the market's so saturated it's hard to make your one stand out.

>>51045787
I'll say that the first one seems more interesting, but will probably be more work than the second one.

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>>51045805
>>51045825
>>51045915

I'll expand a bit, didn't want to text wall. I actually wrote up the draft for the first one's rules.

>City set in another dimension
>It is always night time, only the electricity that nobody really knows where it comes from keeps the darkness at bay
>City is where 'lost' people end up, not just humans but alien creatures from a million different worlds
>Weird animals, plants and technology ended up coming to this world from this. Around the city is just a generic pine forest that somehow lives and grows in near total darkness
>City is filled with gangs, enforcers, scrap-gun wielding adventurers trying to make some cash.
>Technologically anachronistic- people use hand-made scrap guns that overheat easily but the cars all hover and float.
>City districts are diverse and meant to feel as though it could be any city from history; suburbs, cramped inner streets, maze like factory buildings, kowloon walled city-tier apartment super complexes, etc.
>Service tunnels beneath the city are home to all kinds of weird creatures and ancient 'lockers' with weird things inside
>Some people develop psychic powers (like a super power, you get one and that's it), there are also mystic items for sale that do strange and unnatural things plus monsters

That's the simple setting primer.

>>51046100
Sounds a little like a|state.

>>51046100
Seems fun. Why are you thinking of changing focus? If you feel like you're done with this for now then I don't see why you couldn't give it a break and work on that high-fantasy thing.

>yoon-suin has a crabman class
I'm gonna play this shit

>>51046147

What?

>>51046148

I don't know. The rules are mostly complete but I'm not 'sure' about it. High fantasy just feels 'safer' and the rules for Sword and Sorcery come together easier then trying new territory with the gun-based action of the city concept.

Besides I feel like every GM has a high fantasy setting they've been working on for like 10 years and mind is this wimpy little collection of fluff with nothing really developed yet, makes me feel kind of inadequate.

>>51046373
Just do what you feel like man. If you look at what most OSR setting are like you'll see that they are pretty damn weird. so you're no exactly in the minority. I think a lot of them make those kinds of campaigns because they're tired of standard fantasy though, so if you're not then why not explore it until you feel like you're done with it?
But another thing you can do I guess is ask your players what they would like, assuming you have a group.

For the record, once I stopped thinking super hard about what kind of campaign I wanted, and just started running a campaign and throwing in what I liked, I immediately enjoyed the DIY process more. It doesn't solve everything but I think diving in headfirst is probably better than never diving in at all.

>>51046373
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/54874/

Indie RPG, hits similar beats. Y

>>51044944
Allowing Sneak Attack to be ranged seems good enough imo.

>>51045787
both, Dreamlands bitch

>>51046289

He's arguably kind of broken, though. In exchange for mild XP increase and giving up magic items and stuff, you get better HP than the Fighter, excellent natural AC, crazy damage (1d8x2), and saves that start out equal to the Dwarf/Halfling saves from Cook, who have the best saves in B/X, and he actually gets better than them at high levels.
I bet it's because he resembles a large rock.

>>51047468
There's also the trade off of being unable to speak and being a slave.

Does anyone know where the Wizard and Sorceror Spell Compedia is in the Trove?

>>51047539
>roleplay drawbacks
>relevant to game balance

lol

>>51047539

True, and not being able to manipulate anything that requires fingers. I just feel like it would be like playing the autistic fighter from a bad heartbreaker, except instead of just being a dunce outside of combat, you're actually unable to function on your own.

>>51047565
TSR -> AD&D 2e -> 08 - Wizard Spell Compendium
09 is Priest Spell Compendium

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>>51047704
Danke!

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Any requests for Encounters/Monster lists?

>>51048186
Encounters along a fantasy Great Wall, please?

>>51048235

Ohh, I like that one.

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>>51048186
How about some creepy Native American creatures?

>>51048235
Thirding this.

>>51048235
>>51048254
>>51048316
Roll 1d20 and consult the table below
>1-5 a few barbarians
>6-10 a moderate amount of barbarians
>11-15 a lot of barbarians
>16-20 a shitload of barbarians

>>51048413
I was thinking more like barbarians, peasants revolting, horse riders, messengers, hobgoblins, strange mystical creatures, even stranger mystical creatures, monkeys, monks, dragon(s) or soldiers (1 in 6 chance they are also revolting).

>>51048442
I was thinking L5R's Kaiu Wall, complete with built-in geisha houses and the peddler's row behind the wall that sells everything from mess kits to monster bits to take home as a prize (though surely you didn't just run the fuck away without killing one monster, right?)

>>51048442
...You know I already started writing it thinking you meant along as in 'traveling on top of' the great wall. Don't know why I thought that.

>>51048503
This is also acceptable.

Hey! I've never played OSR anything before, so I thought I'd jump in for some advice on running one of my settings. In brief...

>Players are crown agents sent to investigate an expansive colony on a distant continent.
>Players are assumed competent at basic combat and either fieldcraft or social negotiations.
>17/1800s tech level. Muskets and sailing ships with rare advances
>all magic is crafting

Really, i just want something rules-light to encourage players to think "how would *I* track this monster" rather than just rolling investigation checks.

>>51048579

That's what OSR is good for.

Try to get your players into the conversation of what the monster's tracks actually are like and how they go through the woods. As in just tell them that directly and lead to questions, don't ask for a roll. If they ask to roll just tell them to listen instead.

>>51048579
>all magic is crafting
This requires elaboration.

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>>51048186
Witches, lots of Witches and related creatures

>>51048579
What >>51048616 wrote. For early modern tech OSR games you probably want to check out Lamentations of the Flame Princess and (I think?) Into the Odd.

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>>51048579
Peep this, sounds right up your alley.

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>Picked up "King Solomon's Mines" for cheap from used book store
>Love the pulpy classic action
>Want to convert it to an OSR game somehow
>Don't know which game would be best

Such is suffering. Any suggestions?

>>51048624
Basically, there's no "magic missile" or even any "cure wounds"
Instead you have to perform a ritual to make an object that contains charges of "cure wounds".

Items I made include a flask of vigour, which restored HP (but didn't cure injuries), a firebug (small living creature that ate meat and could breathe fire) and a monocle that shot lightning bolts (equivalent to a musket round, but blinded you on a misfire).

>>51048738
I used Into the Odd as a basis for it in the one session I ran, but it didn't quite feel... appropriate. Still a cool system.

>>51047920
Posting Megumin with her once per day nuke is very apropriate to osr m-u

>>51048888
Read it, find all the gameable ideas, make a setting from it, THEN pick which game to use for the setting.

>>51048930
She's more 3.P though, since it's obvious she has put every single feat into maximizing, enlarging, burning, empowering and heightening it.

>>51048579
ACKS might be perfect for you

Guns of war has rules for guns
Players companion has rules for crafting and class creation

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I heard ACKS has some rules about guns? Where could I find them exactly? I plan on including firearms and combination weapons as a staple piece of weaponry for my game.

>>51049042
>>51049046
Oh, never mind then! Thanks for the assist.

Doesn't LotFP have rules for muskets and stuff?

I'm reading Living Jungle material (AD&D 2e setting by RPGA) and I'm wondering what the hell the Tamara/Tigers are. Are they Rakshasas? What's a tantor?

I feel like I'm reading a splat that's missing 2/3rds of the pages.

>>51050031
Where's the Living Jungle stuff found? Is it in the trove? An issue of Polyhedron?

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>>51049514
boom

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>>51050182
Thank you!

>>51050147
Scattered through Polyhedron but someone compiled some stuff here:

http://identicalsoftware.com/rpg/dnd/living_jungle/

The modules fall a little flat because of the tournament mindset but there's some nice continuity and NPC characterization. For example, a blowhard NPC chief who was around since the beginning of the setting has a scripted death and says "I'm too important to die like this" as he falls to his death.

>>51042100
There's also the magic supplement for that setting, which has some new classes. One of them's basically elven death-mages who fucking hate necromancers, with some really cool custom spells.

>>51047593
>game balance
>OSR

lol

Not new to D&D. My dad ran an AD&D module, and I've played a reasonable bit of 3.5

However, I've been itching to rope some of my college friends into playing an OSR campaign. I like the idea of hexcrawls, but I know that a good chunk of them are coming from a more "epic fantasy," railroady sort of campaign.

Any ideas on how to start an OSR campaign? Should I do an old module like B2/Tower of the Stargazer or try and come up with my own?

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>>51039664
I've revised my Racial Class after advice from the last thread

Stormers are horrific killing machines, created by some alchemic and spiritual means in a mysterious city in the wastes. This city is known only for its brutal decay and production of cheap goods in its slave factories. Stormers can serve as elite Operatives, journeying far beyond the wastes as part of a mission with others, or just to record their travels for a hungry home audience. Stomers is expected to name themselves, as part of its training; usually choosing an adjective which is thought by general consensus to be interesting, otherwise they are known by the three digit number tattooed on their arm. A consequence of this is there are only a thousand Stormers at any one time, with only a hundred chosen for Operative status, due to their superior intellect. Management is unhappy with the current breed as they display less health and intelligence than estimates expected and have marked them as Export-Only, if a superior breed could be grown.
However Stormers are child-like in their curiosity and eagerly obtain hobby skills from those they encounter, in an attempt to differentiate themselves. Stormer are often gluttons, and will eat anything else if offered food other than their pork rations.

>>51050729

They suffer a -2 penalty to reaction rolls due to their hideous skinned-horse face, it is also speculated they are part troll, as they regenerate 1 hp every 4 turns, unless exposed to acid or fire. However the process that is used to create them is a foul twisting of magic and science and so Stormers cannot use any form of magic weapons or benefit from any magic. They are so large, it costs twice as much to fit armour for them and the Halfling bonus against large creatures applies.
Saves as Elf
0 -----------Level 1 ------------- 0
500 --------Level 2 ------- 2775
1000 --------Level 3 ------ 5550
2000------ Level 4 ------ 11100
4000 ------ Level 5 ----- 22200
8000 ------ Level 6 ----- 44400
16000 -----Level 7 ----- 88800
25000 -----Level 8 ---- 138750

>>51050738
They have d10 HD and Infravision out to 90'

>>51050729
>>51050738
Better but still have to ask, what do they bring that you feel you need to add this in?

>>51050794
I was reading SLA Industries and I thought; "This could work with a weird fantasy setting like Vorheim"

I wanna make MUs more useful in lower levels but I don't like the idea of cantrips.

Someone in another thread suggested some sort of drug-like substance that recovers daily spell uses but may cause addiction and other harms.

Anybody got anything in that vein? I'm particularly interested in addiction rules.

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>>51050871

Same here, but the PDF never comes.

>>51050871

Why not just make spells allowed to cast infinitely but you need to prepare them again each time they are cast?

Basically Wizards may always have a 'loadout' of spells but since it takes time to prepare there is a choice between stopping for a few turns or pressing on. Each turn your MU is preparing spells is another turn a wandering monster could come by.

>>51050512
>>51050512
>Any ideas on how to start an OSR campaign?

"You all meet in a tavern and decide to go grave-robbing"
"You all grew up together and decide to go grave-robbing"
"You all got paid by some weirdo to go grave-robbing"

That's for bog-standard medieval European fantasy.

>>51050947
I've pondered letting M-U cast both prepared and spontaneous spells.
>prepared spells take time to prepare but that's their only cost
>spontaneous spells cost HP to cast

>>51048735
That's one of the few Hellboy stories I haven't read. Jesus Christ that's legit scary.

>>51050512
Have you looked at B4?

>>51050987

Aside from the "magic items only" system i mentioned above, I have a couple of ideas.

1. All spells require material components, so you use "ammo" to limit them. Don't have a locust leg, no casts of jump.

2. Magic is hazardous. Casting requires a lot of time and safety measures, or a skill check to rush it. Fireball takes 3 rounds OR one round and an Int check. Magnificent Mansion takes two days, or half an hour with a skill check.

3. Magic requires a sacrifice. Blood, memory, identity, wealth. Make your spells big and hard-hitting, but expensive.

I also like the "Doom" idea I read from Goblin Punch. Each 'school' has three Dooms. More powerful spells are more likely to trigger a Doom, and the third basically always retires your character. E.g. an illusion caster BECOMES illusory temporarily, then longer, then permanently for the third doom.

>>51050808
There are alot of rpgs, they all don't need to be d&d compatible, that way lies the OGL and D20 Somalia.

>>51051357
>d20 WOD
>d20 COC
>d20 BESM

Remember when Monte Cook(?) tried to pitch d20 Call of Cthulhu as a D&D add-on and had a battle report of the D&D iconics vs Cthulhu?
How horrifying.

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>>51048235

I liked this one so much I finished it up today. Please enjoy.

>>51050808
What's SLA?

>>51051808
A crunchy, clunky, Scottish system for being Operative of a sinister, all-controling Megacorporation while horrors swirls in rain-soaked streets of a planet-sized Glasgow.

Not OSR

>>51051808
SLA Industries. Mid-90's build-heavy cyberpunk game. You hunt talking Marxist dogs in the sewers and try to get your heroic/criminal actions on CNN to get corporate sponsorships. Kind of like Paranoia for the 24-hour news generation, although some of the authors took it seriously (the rest had their tongues planted so firmly in their cheeks that they were visible from orbit). Apparently someone did a new edition a few years back (with a board game or something?), but I haven't actually seen any of that and the last time I played was in 1998, so YMMV.

>>51051837
Perpetually promised, never delivered

But the art is commissioned and the metaplot advanced one 20 page supplement at a time.

>>51042150
I often have the map out covering the unexplored rooms

>>51051837
The wargame rules have recently been Kickstarted, there was a hardcover reprint of the 2000 v1.1 edition, and there are apparently two more major supplements to go before SLA v2.0 comes out.

>>51050808
There needs to be a reason though, a game can't just be spur of the moment references. It needs structure and forethought.

>>51050928
Does anyone have a pdf of this?

>>51051897
Gygax and Anderson stuck references throughout their games, that's what make D&D an exception than tediously trying to survive Fantasy Europe like C&S or Conan's Hyborea

>>51051921
They belonged to a different era, before personal media and millennials with their tablets and chemically altered attention spans. Nowadays improvisation is a sign of a poor DM who can't control his players with a credible plot.

>>51045111
>yesterday's took it to the point of ridiculousness.
Not really. You're blowing this out of proportions.

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>>51050871
>I wanna make MUs more useful in lower levels but I don't like the idea of cantrips.
>Someone in another thread suggested some sort of drug-like substance that recovers daily spell uses but may cause addiction and other harms.
>Anybody got anything in that vein? I'm particularly interested in addiction rules.
Lamentations has some pretty simple stuff. I'll post the Lotus rules from Death Frost Doom (and Quelong here in a sec).

>>51051357
honestly people in this thread lately have become way too worried about what is or isn't OSR, really the only definition I worry about these days is regarding base compatibility across different games, pretty much everything else is secondary

>>51051871
How do you handle moving around corridors then?

>>51048816
I find it odd that they've never used that system to just make a generic fantasy D&D clone kinda thing. The closest they have is Woodland Warriors but some people might take issue with the idea of playing a bunch of badgers and mice. They've released some dark fantasy game which I recall being a weird D&D style clone of the Stormbringer RPG, which is similar, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.

Also it's not free.

>>51052022
But if you open up OSR, you'll get stuff like Runequest or Tunnels & Trolls or Boot Hill being mixed in.

>>51052022
>have become way too worried about what is or isn't OSR
I disagree. There have been lots of stuff here lately that could be straight out of Pathfinder. People want to preserve this general as the general for old school gaming like it should be and has been.

OSR is not an all-encompassing thing. People criticize rules that don't fit into the old school format for a reason.

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>>51052013
Cocaine pops up in England Upturn'd, but there's no specific addiction rules there. Same with Temple of Lies and the opium den. I think there's something similar in Blood in the Chocolate, but I haven't bought that one yet.

>>51052058
What about Boot Hill? Is that OSR?

Has Blood in the Chocolate been recovered already?

>>51052117
With its old school design philosophy, absolutely.

>>51052053
Boot Hill has pretty much always been OSR, D&D had rules for converting characters from that game into D&D, also do note what I said about broad compatibility, T&T and Runequest don't apply in that regard

>>51052058
you're just using that as an excuse to be a nitpicking grognard because you don't like anything that's been thought up after 1982, besides if we don't talk about new concepts these threads have a tendency to die pretty hard, as there's only so many ways you can talk about the stuff that fits your definition of OSR(which is too goddamned narrow to be of any use)

>>51052058

Wrong.

OSR is;
>Dungeon Crawling, resource management gameplay
>Rulings over rules
>Descriptive action over character ability

OSR is NOT
>A ruleset
>Lack of depth
>Sacred Cows

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What's some good Not-Europe OSR material? I love Dark Albion and I want more like that.

>>51052146
>you're just using that as an excuse to be a nitpicking grognard because you don't like anything that's been thought up after 1982
No. I don't like stuff that has more to do with Pathfinder than old school gaming. That's not nitpicking. Also whenever I criticize something I do it in a constructive way.

If by "new concepts" you mean a paradigm shift to modern gaming then no, we don't need that and it's not inevitable. There are endless possibilities for innovative new games in the proper OSR sphere. Take a look at Wolf-packs and Winter Snow for example. If you don't understand the ramifications of adding feat systems, character building and other player-facing mechanics to these games you should think about how these games are designed for a moment. Don't just go around calling everyone who doesn't want Pathfinderisms in their old school generals nitpicking grognards.

>>51052164
honestly the only definition I hold to at all is that it's one or both of the following two;

was published by TSR

is broadly compatible with TSR editions and most other games that label themselves OSR as well

literally any other definition for OSR just invites meaningless arguments that waste everyone's time

>>51052237
>everything I don't like is Pathfinder

>>51052164
>>Rulings over rules
>>Descriptive action over character ability
Exactly. That's why Pathfinderisms like feats and builds should stay away from these generals.

>>51052237
you basically just proved my point

>>51052255
No. Everything that is similar to D&D 3.x or Pathfinder is like Pathfinder.

>>51052237

Sorry to spoil this for you but, those things always existed in DnD.

Not only did you A, get to pick a character class and B, pick different equipment and starting items AS WELL AS develop your character's domain and magic item arsenal through play- but the entire purpose of playing as an MU is expanded and creating your own pool of magical spells and resources. To argue that 'character building' is against OSR is to say that OSR is not a roleplaying game.

Remind yourself that LotFP, the definitive retro-clone, has thief skills characters can specialize in. Taking one step forward and letting fighters choose a few different abilities or powers is not making things 'pathfinder', it only crosses a line of sand invented in your mind. Muh sacred cows, muh pathfinder. Fuck off.

>>51052271
Care to elaborate on how I just proved your point?

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>>51052053
>if you open up OSR, you'll get stuff like Runequest or Tunnels & Trolls or Boot Hill being mixed in.
Implying ducks with sixguns is a bad thing?

>>51052013
>>51052068
>>51050871
To sum up:
Purple Lotus has a straight 5% chance of addicting you. White Lotus uses a Save vs. Paralysis (which allows a Wisdom saving throw modifier).

I'd probably go for a disease-like system myself (at least, based on my own experiences with withdrawal..). Have a base chance to get addicted, modified by Wis, and double the chances every time you take it on consecutive days.


>Juice of Sappho
The drug allows a Magic-user to recall forgotten spells, but renders them dangerously open to suggestion while under its influence; false memories and illusions seem more real, and the Mage's own power may even latently reinforce them.

Effects: Violent euphoria, with a sense of transcendental connection to Magic itself. The character suffers -2 to Saves vs. Illusions and mind-affecting magics for 2d6 hours. They become unusually trusting and slightly dazed during this time. Regain up to 1d3 spell levels with each dose.

Addiction percentage: 15% per dose, minus the character's Wisdom score. Double the chances each consecutive day the character makes use of the Juice.
Addiction effects: fever, shakes, aching loss of short-term memory. Lose one memorized spell (-1 Int if no spells remain), interval 12 hours, duration 12 days. The character cannot perform meaningful magical research or creation during this time.

Overdose chance: 20%-Wis. +70% per dose taken within 18 hours. If the character overdoses, make a save vs. poison: failure indicates the character is catatonic, at 0 Intelligence, and will die if not treated immediately. If the character passes, roll on your favorite mutation table. In addition, the character gains 1d3 false memories.

Signs: Glazed eyes, purple-stained lips and teeth. In high doses, acts as a mutagen (generally produces batrachian effects).

What's some good weaknesses for undead that aren't the typical ones? So far I've got;

>Being buried "6 feet under" any earth or stone causes them to become paralyzed permanently until dug up
>Certain types of fungi will try to consume them like they're a corpse
>flies too

is OSR a game or a genre? I dont get it

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>>51052350

I made a bunch of weak-to-the-elements undead once.

>Vine skeletons- skeletons animated by evil dried up vines. Weak to fire.
>Lard zombies. Zombies that have a weird lard spread on their skin, which is the only thing keeping them animated. Water washes it off and makes them corpses again.
>Dust Wraiths. Ghostly undead made of ash and human corpse dust. Blown away by strong winds.
>Clay Mummies. Mummies buried with clay masks and 'armor' over them that keeps them preserved. Just hitting them causes them to fall apart, but they are fast and have spells.

>>51052337
>Implying ducks with sixguns is a bad thing?

It ruins the purity of the game with all this, kitchen sink gonzo bullshit. It's like having elves or black people in medieval Europe.

>>51052287
>Sorry to spoil this for you but, those things always existed in DnD.
That's simply not true. Choosing a class at the beginning of the game is definitely not the same thing as having a strictly player-facing system for customization and character building (feats mainly).

I do argue that mechanistic character building is against OSR. Mainly because that's a huge shift in the focus of gameplay compared to the original old school games and because character building like that didn't exist in those games. This whole character building gameplay was popularized by 3.0.

>sacred cow
Instead of throwing buzzwords around you could try to convince me of how adding feats and character building is a good fit to old school games and why it should be done in spite of shifting the gameplay away from the old school mode of play into character building land.

>>51052408
It's a renaissance for the old school D&D type of gameplay. The main games are obviously old versions of D&D but it's not just those games.

>>51052446
Ah, I've only played pathfinder homebrews personally so I wouldn't know the differences.

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>>51052423

I use a buzzword to make fun of your position. You defend a thing about old games (lack of character customization) without understanding -why- the old games have them. Gary Gygax was a big fan of character customization, except when one of his players wanted to make a special character he made a whole fucking class for them.

>Wait a second, you're telling me the elf is like a half fighter half MU?
>W-Wait the paladin is like a cleric with even more fighting ability?
>What do you mean the Druid is a Nature-Based Cleric?
>You can choose Cleric domains or your spells can be changed based on alignment?
>MUs can research spells?!
>There are rules for multiclassing!!!
>OH MY FUCKING GOD NOT OSR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Better jump in your time machine back to 1970s and tell Gary Gygax to stop putting Pathfinder shit into *your* OSR

Let me ask you a question. If you rolled the barbarian, the paladin, the cavalier and the fighter all together, all oldschool classes, and instead let the player choose which bonus to take each level, what would it change?

Nothing. It would change nothing.

You don't know what you're talking about. Also I like how you totally ignored my MU comment, considering you couldn't rationalize it with your shitty argument.

Told Status
>[ ] Not Told
>[X] Told

>>51052454
The most important difference when comparing old D&D and PF is that in old D&D players don't need to know any rules at all to play the game. The referee (DM) handles the rules and runs the game. This means players can't fall back on rules or do any rules lawyering at all.

Another important thing is that combat is best avoided. XP comes from treasure recovered from dungeons so whenever combat can be avoided it's best to do so.

>>51052487
I'm not defending the lack of character customization. I'm defending the lack of character building through selectable feats and powers. In general I argue that most player-facing mechanics should be avoided.

Like I already explained, having a million different classes is not the same thing as adding in a system where you pick and choose from different powers as you gain XP i.e. character building.

>Let me ask you a question. If you rolled the barbarian, the paladin, the cavalier and the fighter all together, all oldschool classes, and instead let the player choose which bonus to take each level, what would it change?
It would change the game in a way that leads to optimal character builds which is not good. That's exactly what I would like to avoid.

>You don't know what you're talking about.
I do know what I'm talking about perfectly fine.

>>51052495
Hmm, me and my friend recently started GMing a campaign we made using D&D5e which seems to fit a lot of your description.
It's set in a mysterious fort (it's surrounded by a mysterious forest that always leads back to the fort so we could make a contained but insanely detailed campaign), we only let the players see the bare minimum stats wise and the world also has many strange rules and their actions are constantly triggering and affecting things without them being aware. There are things to fight but instead of levels and XP which break the immersion of our campaign there will be relics which are like modular upgrades. The game is designed to create mistrust between players and if one player managed to get a lot of relics they would be significantly more powerful than the others, if they spread them evenly among the team the whole party will be stronger.

I just got done making an intro for the lets play series I'm making of the stream recordings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIkD4urL2RA

>>51052414
One I wrote for a game were ambulatory plants that incubated in human corpses.

Functionally, tree zombies. Except that if you broke the skin, a giant tangle of branches would spring out and latch onto your sword arm. A bite was basically a death sentence, because branches would grow from their gums into your bite wound (and if not severed within a couple of rounds, you'd have a sapling implanted in you).

>>51052423
>Instead of throwing buzzwords around you could try to convince me of how adding feats and character building is a good fit to old school games and why it should be done in spite of shifting the gameplay away from the old school mode of play into character building land.

Not that guy but I think it fits very well and can work just fine. But only if you keep it simple.

Do away with feat trees, feat taxes, all these proficiency bonuses. Remove the emphasis on high stats. These aren't good for what we're after.

What you SHOULD be doing is allowing classes to swap out their per-level or milestone bonuses for other abilities. Letting the Thief choose their skills or letting a Fighter choose AC or Attack for an improvement are some examples.

The reason why they fit well into the formula is that, even though OSR games tend to have a highly lethal challenge and character can be expendable, it's not a sole character but THE PARTY that is the main unit of the game. If you can customize characters to better fit into that party scheme, all the better to keep you going and all the more destructive when you lose one of your core members.

If you're a killer DM it helps your players get more attached to their characters for when they eventually get rekt. If you are a soft DM then this lets people build their characters to better overcome your challenges. It's a win-win really.

>>51052572

You still have not explained how you think selecting thief skills and MUs developing their magical portfolios is any different from mechanical bonuses.

>It would change the game in a way that leads to optimal character builds which is not good. That's exactly what I would like to avoid.

You imply people won't just pick the best classes in the first place?

>>51052644
>You still have not explained how you think selecting thief skills and MUs developing their magical portfolios is any different from mechanical bonuses.
None of those allow for character building the way feats do. Thief skills and MU research are characteristics of those classes. All characters of those classes are going to have them. They're not going to get to pick and choose from a list of additional mechanics when leveling up. And in the case of MU spell research, the player doesn't get to dictate what the spell is. It's up to the referee to allow or deny anything that the player comes up with.

>You imply people won't just pick the best classes in the first place?
There is no free choice best class in old D&D. Paladin might be the best class but it has very strict ability score requirements so it's very unlikely that a player gets to pick the paladin. Also elves have very high XP requirements.

Which stat spread is better;
>15+ = +1

>12-14 +1
>15-17 +2
>18+ +3
?

>>51052926
I use 3-11 = low, 9-12 = average, 13-18 = high.

Low gets -1 and high +1.

>>51052940
>3-11
Damn, I mean 3-8.

>>51052022
Different people are going to have different opinions on what OSR encompasses, and delineations of this only become wrong by degrees of popular opinion, as a preponderance of people disagree with the inclusion of a particular game. So there is no distinct line beyond which an inclusion is demonstrably false. However, you do eventually reach a point at which so few people agree with your definition that it's silly and unhelpful to cling to it. Shy of that, one can certainly have a personal perspective on what should qualify as being truly OSR, but to castigate somebody for having a somewhat different viewpoint seems rather pointless and unproductive, as the word, itself, is not sharply defined. And this, I think, is where some in these threads have erred. It's all fine and good to explain to people why you think 2e isn't really in keeping with the old school experience, and why you don't think it's truly an OSR game, but berating them for thinking differently or trying to stymie discussion on it just makes you an asshole.

>>51052926
It really depends on the system and what you're trying to do with it, not to mention the actual method of stat generation. I generally like a bit more stratification than just +1, but it's hard to paint one way as more proper than the other.

>>51052960
I hate yer words, u asshat

>>51052926

Not;
>3-4 (-2)
>5-8 (-1)
>9-12 (0)
>13-16 (1)
>17-18 (2)

>>51052926
I like this version of +3 range
>9-12 = 0
>13-15 = +1
>16-17 = +2
>18 = +3

>>51052408
>>51052454
Prior to 3e, all editions of D&D were largely compatible, being built on the same core system. During the heyday of 3.x, there was a resurgence of people interested in old school stuff like this, driven by dissatisfaction with what were seen as the shortcomings of modern D&D gaming (heavy rules, a focus on builds, the idea that the DM was subordinate to the rules, etc.). This was led by games like OSRIC and Castles & Crusades, which repackaged and sometimes modified the rules of old school editions of D&D, providing modern, published versions of them. More and more people became involved with them, causing the "retroclone" movement to explode. So like with the Renaissance, there was a rebirth of sorts, and a flowering of the art form, as people built on something of the past that had been lost, or at least receded somewhat from the popular consciousness.

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It's so damn hard to figure out if I want to use saving throw categories influenced by stats OR if I want to just use a single saving throw number.

I like both honestly. Saving throws with some stat modifiers make a lot of sense to help characters with high stats be better defended against certain dangers, but at the same time using a single saving throw is SO good for simplicity and making characters of any class get better and better as they level up.

The only possible recompense between the two might work too, adding a modifier depending on situation, but I'd feel bad for making people feel like their stats don't matter for saving throws against more enigmatic threats. Should Wisdom give a bonus to avoiding getting petrified? Should Strength give a bonus when you get constricted by a giant snake?

Please somebody help me.

Someone has the PDF of Broodmother Skyfortress? I couldn't find it in the trove...

>>51052985
Sorry. Sometimes it's easy to get stuck unwittingly in hoity-toity mode.

>>51053108
Can you clarify "influenced by stats"? If you mean some kind of roll under attribute thing, then you probably shouldn't do it since saving throw numbers are supposed to be tied to class and level.

>Please somebody help me.
I don't think anybody can really help you on this, as it all comes down to what sits well with you. I personally approve of the concept of a universal save stat modified by whatever attribute, if any, may be appropriate to the situation.

>Should Wisdom give a bonus to avoiding getting petrified? Should Strength give a bonus when you get constricted by a giant snake?
Both of those would certainly make sense, and unless you're writing a game to be used by others, I don't know that this something you have to clearly define. DM fiat works fine.

Goddammit. >>51053200 is supposed to link to >>51053108.

>>51053174

No as in just add the modifier to your saving throw.

>>51053200
>>51053205

I like the idea of adding it to the save. I'm going to do a combination; flat bonus to Combat/Hazards/Magic based on your class level of the relevant class (Fighter, Thief, Wizard obviously) and then the attribute bonus if the situation calls for it. Thanks.

>>51053294
What do Clerics get? Do they not exist?

>>51053314
Oh I forgot, I'd give them bonus saves vs death/disease and maybe curses. Seems fitting enough.

>>51053108
>>51053190
Not sure what system you are using, but in many retroclones wisdom gives a bonus to non-magic saves and intelligence give a bonus to magic saves. The giant snake situation you brought up seems like more of a grab thing than a save.

Clerics, yes or no?

>>51053430
My houserules:

Two classes: Fighting Man and Magic User. Cleric spells moved over to MU.

FM gets an additional hit die each level up, MU every other. Each additional HD also gives +1 to attack bonus. Monster attack bonus is HD-1.

Hit die is d6 and damage is rolled with a d6.

>>51053430
Yes

How do you guys explain armor restriction rules in-universe, assuming you have them? I'm thinking of adding them in again and I hope "you can wear better armor, but you won't get a better armor class since you don't know how to use it correctly" is an alright justification.

>>51053610
>I hope "you can wear better armor, but you won't get a better armor class since you don't know how to use it correctly" is an alright justification.
So you each class basically has a "maximum armor" rating? I see nothing wrong with this, tough realize that if you find magic armor, there may be an incentive for a a thief or magic-user to wear platemail. If you want to discourage that, then you could say that heavier armors are actually a step worse than the best thing you could wear (a thief can wear leather which is AC 7, so chainmail or platemail would be AC 8). Alternately, you could just have heavy armors interfere with class functions (spell casting, thieving, etc.). Or you could even have a penalty associated with wearing armor heavier than you're proficient with (if armor reduces damage then maybe it's easier to hit you; maybe you get a penalty to your to-hit and/or saves, etc.).

>>51052039
>some people might take issue with the idea of playing a bunch of badgers and mice.
I dunno, an OSR game in a Redwall-esque setting sounds way more fun than yet another setting with humans only or humans plus your standard demihuman trio (with maybe gnomes if the author is feeling *really* creative).

>>51053610

I just don't restrict armor per class anyway. Magic users can't cast spells very effectively in heavy armor and they really don't need the expense or weight of it, and obviously it's hard to be sneaky in big heavy armor, so its more a warrior or cleric thing. I also imagine that Clerics probably have a few religious laws about armor to restrict them from going full plate, whatever, doesn't really matter to me.

>>51053672
These are good points, I'll think about them.

>>51053723
Do you have rules for that, or is it more of a handwave thing?

>>51053793
>Do you have rules for that, or is it more of a handwave thing?

Rough rules include;
>Stealth
Reduce all stealth rolls by -1 per point of armor. You must roll over enemy morale score in order to sneak past them or initiate a sneak attack.

>Magic Rolls
Every spell you cast against enemies gives them a save of some kind (except magic missile). Every point of armor bonus you have on gives -1 to enemy's save throw, which is roll under.

I was also thinking about a mechanic to make it impossible to prepare spells unless out of encumbering armor, but I'm working on it still.

>>51053610
>explain armor restriction rules in-universe
>explain rules in-universe
I don't. To me the rules are there for the game to be fun, not to simulate some kind of reality. Plus if I change some I don't have to create a magical plague and kill the goddess of magic just to justify the fact that I suddenly decided to use a different magic system or something.

>>51053883
I guess you don't have players that go "Oh, so I can't even put on the plate armor just because I'm a magic user? What exactly is stopping me?"

>>51053128
Probably in the inbox folder

>>51054153
none of my players ever asked that question

but if they did I would answer "the game rules. It says so right here on page x. I'm not gonna change the rules because you wanna feel special, timmy."

>>51054153
There's an easy answer to that: it's a game, not a simulator.

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>>51054153
I always just made it so that large quantities of iron/steel interfered with spell use, increasing the chance of them fizzling. Of course, I haven't had that problem with my group.

>>51054201
What if they decide to put the magic user in plate armor and roll him down a slope to destroy a bunch of skeletons like bowling pins? Are you saying that they can't do that because the magic user can't put on plate armor in the rules, even if the rules were made to balance something completely different than that situation?

>>51054194
>>51054201
You might as well provide an in-world explanation so that things are more immersive and your players don't feel like you're just shutting them down (even though there are obviously mechanical reasons to do so).

>>51054298
>You might as well provide an in-world explanation
Nah. Me and my players are clear on that, we are playing a game, there are rules, to follow, just like any other game.

>What if they decide to put the magic user in plate armor and roll him down a slope to destroy a bunch of skeletons like bowling pins?
I'm not going to theorycraft about hypothetical situations that the rules don't cover, it's easy to come up with such situations but this is OSR. When something not covered by the rules happens in a game, you make a ruling and move on. Take note of that ruling to make it consistent and that's it.

>>51054298
I agree that you should come up with in-game examples for rules as much as possible. It's easy to say plate prohibits your movement enough to make it difficult to complete the spell-casting sequence, but there will always be rules that either can't be explained in-game or that sound like DM-bullshit when explained.

>>51054355
>examples
explanations

>>51054346
>When something not covered by the rules happens in a game, you make a ruling and move on. Take note of that ruling to make it consistent and that's it.
This is literally why I posted >>51053610, just so you know.

>>51054346
Isn't a consistent ruling just a rule?

>>51054387
>>51054474
The point is, I won't constrain my in-game world by the metagame rules. If, and only if such a ridiculous situation comes up then I would come up with some ruling.

Like I use race as class. But I don't make that as an actual in-game thing because otherwise, I would never ever be able to have any dwarf NPCs that aren't exclusively warriors. There are dwarven smiths and miners and shit, they just don't go adventuring.

>>51054499
I don't think there was a rule that all dwarfs had to be "dwarf-class" in the first place?

>>51054547
>but anon, why can't be a dwarf wizard/thief/snowflake?

Going from the flow you would say "because dwarves can't use magic" or some shit, cementing in your world that there are no dwarves that use magic meanwhile I would say "because that's the rules" and if I wanted to I could have later on a dorf npc runemaker or something

>>51054297
I would tell them to play the game and stop dicking around.

>>51054571
How would know what I would say? Similar stuff has happened in my group before and I've told them that I don't have any rules for that handy but I can whip something up if you really want to play it.

And I'm still pretty sure that there isn't a rule that all dwarfs have to be dwarf-class.

>>51054602
Coming up with solutions to problems is playing the game, whether or not the solutions actually work.

>>51054603
you are ignoring the main point
>I won't constrain my in-game world by the metagame rules.

Wanna try to master a one shot old school adventure for my 3.5 D&D group.

Could you suggest a simple system and a good one shot for it?

>>51054677
But lots of rules in D&D and retroclones have in-game justifications.
Here's one from B/X
>clerics are forbidden by their religious codes from using edged weapons

>>51054803
>in-game justifications
I meant in-world justifications.

>>51054803
True. But why would I add more constraints?

>>51054803
That really only works for catholic-style clerics because of the "Thou shall not spill the blood of thou's fellow man" loophole. If you don't have a god like that in your game in doesn't make any sense.

>>51054841
Because without constraints, there won't be any significant or interesting systems to experiment with in your campaign world.

>>51054868
True, but that other guy is saying that thinking like that is wrong and you should get back to playing the game as intended.

>>51054872
>there won't be any significant or interesting systems to experiment with in your campaign world.
Gonna be honest, I don't get what you mean here.

>>51054912
>True, but that other guy is saying that thinking like that is wrong and you should get back to playing the game as intended.

I'm that guy, and i'm not saying the way you do it is wrong. I'm saying I don't see the point of doing it like that.

>>51054787
B/X is a good system, and you could run b4 lost city

>>51053693
Yes, but it's more likely to be relevant to your interests. It's easy to work from humans back to mice rather than the other way around.

>>51054964
When the players play the game, they will pick up on rules of the campaign-world that they can use to their advantage if they're creative enough. If you as a DM decide that you don't want to "constrain your in-game world by the metagame rules", then there is no certainty of consistency in anything and the players will be unsure about what they can and can't do.

>>51054983
How would you do it?

>>51055009
thanks will check it out.

>>51050956
you are all part of a caravan travelling to a village beset by a mysterious disease.
the martial characters are there as caravan guards, the clerics and/or wizards are there as part of the church sent to try to cure the disease [if they are martial cleric they could be also there to guard the caravan.
rogues are there because oportunity for easy cash.

The PC may have noticed each other but because of the rotating shifts for the guards they havent had a chance to talk to each other.

Starting scene - the caravan is travelling through a wooded valley, where ts raining for some hours. the martial PC's, relived of their shifts are sent to the nearest caravan to drive off -the one where the rest of the PC's are residing.

begin.

>>51055066
>How would you do it?
I have a world. It is mostly consistent with itself.
It is not, however, necessarily consistent with the restrictions imposed upon the players themselves by the necessary game balancing. If the players ask "why can't I do X" my answer is "because there is rule Z".

The M-U can't use armor the same way one of the players can't play a dragon. There are dragons in the world, and there even might be magic using beings that wear armor, but the players cannot play as them, due to the rules of the game we have agreed to play.

>>51055263
But what happens when they go "but what is the reason for rule Z?" and you go "Because reason Y" and they go "But reason why Y has nothing do with X in this situation"?
For example:
>Why can't my magic user wear plate armor?
>Because it says so in the rules
>What is the reason for those rules?
>To balance the classes so the magic user isn't overpowered in combat
>But I want to use the plate armor to disguise myself as a brigand, so that I can try to get into their camp. I don't even want to wear it for combat.
I was thinking about situations like these, tried to come up with a consistent rule and posted the idea here on the thread. But apparently this player should play by the rules and not try to interact with the campaign world in a creative way.


And of course you can play a dragon, Gygax wrote so himself. It just has to be a young, low level dragon.

>>51055380
There's no need to engage in a neverending circle like that. Magic User can't wear plate armour because the rules say so is a reason good enough. If someone wants to wear plate as a MU for whatever reason, I would not allow it. I would make a simple ruling like that and continue on with the game.

>>51055380
A. You could say MUs are too physically weak to put on plate armor in the first place, meaning they can't wear them for any purpose.
B. You could say they're too weak/untrained to USE plate armor effectively in combat, in which case they could wear it for other purposes but not in combat (make them immobile or something if they try to be smartasses and say "That's okay, I just lie on the ground being invincible").

>>51050956
"The skeleton has ACx, roll to hit. Why the fuck are you in this murderhole with these other assholes, anyway, and why are you probably going to get back together and do it again after you all blow all your loot on strong booze and hot men?"

>>51055559
What's the neverending circle here?

>>51055626
B is what I originally suggested, and A is just as valid. The other anon doesn't like in-universe justifications of any kind, so neither of those would work for him.

>>51055626
>You could say MUs are too physically weak to put on plate armor in the first place, meaning they can't wear them for any purpose.
But my MU has 13 strength!
>You could say they're too weak/untrained to USE plate armor effectively in combat, in which case they could wear it for other purposes but not in combat
But why can't my MU learn to use plate armor!

I'm not disagreeing with your logic. Just pointing out that there will be shit players that say this.

>>51051659
Redgar's death is depicted in D20 CoC, actually.

It's honestly one of the least-shit D20 things.

>>51055380
>>But I want to use the plate armor to disguise myself as a brigand, so that I can try to get into their camp. I don't even want to wear it for combat.

A disguise is not armor. If the player wants to disguise himself, it's fine. No need to bring in-game mechanics into this.
While playing the game the exchange would look something like this
>I want to use the plate armor to disguise myself as a brigand, so that I can try to get into their camp. I don't even want to wear it for combat.
>sure, you can disguise yourself as a brigand.

and then the game would continue on and nobody would care.

Which spell's addition to the game was the biggest mistake: Magic Missile, or Wish?

fuuuuuuuuuuuck Wish as a spell, fuck it so hard, you know what should happen when a genie grants you a wish? you wish for something, and the genie uses its considerable powers as a fucking genie to do it. you want gold, it gets you gold. you want true love, ir finds you someone. it's even slightly annoyed? it fucks you over. it does not do this by having "wish" as a spell or spell-like-ability or what the fuck ever

also magic missile sucks too

>>51056008
Wish can make Magic Missiles, so obviously Wish.

>>51051674
>magical echo virus

Yes.

>>51055799
I agree, but what happens if he gets caught and attacked?
>Hey, I'm still wearing armor right? It should help a little bit?
>Well, you're not trained in the armor, so no.
>But it has to help just a little bit, right?
>Well, how about >>51053610?
Cue me coming here and asking about it. For the record I thought that the ideas by >>51053672 were pretty good.

>>51055718
Yeah. Biggest issue is the 1-20 scale when characters are lucky to see level 6 at best, but otherwise it's pretty serviceable for a d20 game, and definitely better than d20 Modern at modern action (not that it's hard to do) The GM section in particular is a must-read for anyone interested in running Call of Cthulhu no matter the system.

>>51056178
>I agree, but what happens if he gets caught and attacked?
Nothing, it's just a disguise, it has no mechanical effects. And if he insists well, we're back to
>because of rule Z
>but what is the reason for rule Z?
>Because reason Y

And we're done.

>>51056255
That's fair I guess. I want to continue on this a bit more though but I need to change the hypothetical PCs class from MU to Thief (because MUs can't wear any armor at all). Let's say a thief wears leather armor, then changes to plate to disguise himself, would you still say that he should not even get the leather armor bonus once he gets in a fight?

>>51056309
>would you still say that he should not even get the leather armor bonus once he gets in a fight?
I wouldn't want to penalize the player for being creative so I would just assume he's still wearing his leather armor under the disguise.

>>51056349
Alright, that does seem like a good solution.

>>51050956
I was thinking of starting in medias res.

"You kick in the door to the dungeon"

I meant in a sense of managing a world and giving enough information about it for players to make meaningful choices.

>>51056408
Starting out at the dungeon door is perfectly fine.

>>51056408
I've started two different campaigns outside of/entering dungeons and found putting a corpse there and asking the players where they know the dead guy from gets the ball rolling.

got the idea from apocalypse world; ask the players questions sometimes and build on them

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I know all are good in their own way, but which system is the best to run Fantasy games with for you? And why?

LoTFP, BFRPG, S&W, LL, B/X, ACK or DCC

>>51055380
>why can't human MUs wear armor
I'll give you the explanation that always stuck with me:

Learning how to use magic is a time-consuming academic practice, like grad-school, but basically for the MU's whole life. That leaves basically no time in the MU's schedule to learn things like how to fight and cast spells while wearing armor (which itself is a daunting study). In addition, the overwhelming majority of MU's are never expected to fight. They usually hang out in their facilities doing things like research while consulting and cranking out magic items to support themselves. If the average MU needs something from a dungeon, he puts up a bounty and waits for some band of desperate suicidal fools to fetch it for him. If a MU is to be employed in hostilities such as warfare, he is generally surrounded by soldiers for protection.

The adventuring MU is an anomaly, much like any other adventurer in that sense. It is someone who has for whatever reason left behind a life of relatively quiet study to endure absolute chaos and bloodshed. MUs are generally not trained for that. It would be a waste, like requiring biotechnology PhDs to operate assault rifles and use grenades, just in case they decide to run out to a warzone and start killing people.

Elves are an exception in part because they have much longer formative periods in which to learn multiple trades, like magic-use and fighting. Also, elves have innate affinities for magic, and elf cultures tend to prioritize martial education. That means elves can learn to both fight and wear armor as a fighter while using magic like a MU.

>>51056570
>cont
Also, a magic user *can* put on armor if he wishes. He will benefit from its AC, but due to his awkwardness and lack of familiarity he will fight as a normal human and will not benefit from his class features, such as his hit dice and ability to use magic. He could certainly try to use it as a disguise, but his uneven gait and awkward movements will betray that he is not accustomed to wearing armor.

Does anyone have a copy of "The Islands Of Purple-Haunted Putrescence" that is bookmarked?

>>51051674
You rock, encounter anon.

>>51057012
>rock
You did this on purpose.

>>51056646

Losing hit dice seems...kinda silly.

>>51057128

It seems okay to me. The wizard can't dodge effectively, the way he's used to. He's a big clumsy target in that thing.

>>51057110
I swear I didn't.

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>>51056511
>I'm a fan of dpp

What are Labyrinth Lord's main selling points? Got intrigued by some of the adventures, so now I wanna know more.

>>51056130
>>51056008
Magic missile is balanceable, because its just damage. Wish is super hard to arbitrate. I usually have the wish SPELL summon a genie or efreet. There's a separate spell to summon each one, and some of them are total dicks. None of them grant unlimited power.

Oh, and wishing for more wishes? Sends you back in time to right before you made the wish for more wishes.

Boom, you know how to get infinite wishes. Shame you only get to benefit from one...

>>51057328
The selling point is that it is almost exactly like B/X, and it has a sort of AD&D-style expansion if you want the system to be more advanced.

>>51057182

So he's harder to hit but also having a harder time dodging at the same time?

Anyone run 5e modules using an OSR system? I wanna give Lost Mines of Phandelver a go.

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>>51055712
I always just go with plate armor restricts the casting of spells.

So sure, your mage can wear armor, but (unless you're some funky requip mage which I personally think is a much better concept than eldritch knight) your mage can't cast any spells, or sense any magical energy while wearing plate armor.

Go ahead, turn your wizard into a fighter with worse hp and thac0. If you have fun, or you're in disguise, I don't mind.

You'll get tired of not having spells pretty soon, though. I know I would

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>>51055263
I never agreed to every rule in the rulebook. I never signed and dated 'em. I agreed to play a game dmed by you, and I expect you to give me some chance to play the character I want to play.

Depending on the game (read: 3.5) it can be perfectly balanced to allow casting in plate armor. Dnd isn't a by-the-rules game, its a game of two 8-year-olds running around a park yelling SUPERMAN WINS BECAUSE HE'S THE MAN OF STEEL...and the other one yells MAGNETO WINS BECAUSE HE CAN MAGNETIZE STEEL.

>>51055380
The holy word of Gygax is not the holy truth of god himself, anon. If he'd ever wanted to play in my game, he'd have had to accept my rulings.

I'd have rather played in his, anyways.

>>51056570
That's the explanation I use for why wizards have the lowest chance to hit. They still can (and in fact, I want wizards to use swords occasionally because of Gandalf) but they have less time to practice, and thus develop their skill more slowly.

Following the Gandalf line, I also like the idea that monsters of a certain level are hard to fight at all, regardless of your exact bonuses. Paladins, wizards, fighters with sentient swords and the like are very important in my games for fighting demons.

>>51057395

Harder to hit effectively because he's covered in metal, but if you can get at him, he's kind of screwed because he doesn't have the training to deal with someone about to shank him through the chinks of the armor.
Don't think about it too hard, though -- remember that both AC and HP are abstractions.

>>51053314
Some people actually don't have clerical pcs

http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/p/primary-house-rules.html

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>tfw got my OD&D from Lulu

Has anybody else noticed that the Dwarf, Gnome and Elf pictures all seem to be art of the same character?

>>51053015
>>51053000
>>51052926

Here's what I generally use, though each stat has its own table.

3: -2
4-5: -1
6-8: no penalty, players typically roleplay being bad at stuff, but getting it done anyways. May be less significant penalties in other areas, like CHA in this range is allowed fewer followers.
9-12: 0, average.
13-15: +1
16-17: +2
18: +3

>>51050182
Possible mislabeling here? This isn't a firearms reference sheet specifically so much as a general combat cheat sheet, it lacks any rules for blunderbusses and doesn't mention the load times for guns.

I'm guessing maybe you saved 2 pics at the same time and misnamed them with each other's contents?

>>51052842
>>51052644
You don't come to the dm and say "I'd like to play the best class."

The class you want to play might not exist yet, but if you tell me a cool character you'd like to play, I can MAKE the class. If you say "I wanna play the best class," I'll make you a thief. Thieves are power, and they don't have to obey any laws, but they can still be kindhearted and of good character.

Classes have major disadvantages built in.

Barbarians get XP from destroying magic items, and don't like them ('cause BAD)

Don't get me started on paladins. Forget falling if you misuse your powers, you have to tithe most of your treasure to the church.

>>51050512
>Any ideas on how to start an OSR campaign?
I like "You stand before the opening into [Dungeon Name]. You have no money, no food, no work, and for some reason thought this would be the best way to earn a living. Decide for yourselves why, and also what you do."

>>51051253
I just make spells weak or specific. Sometimes they aren't a substitute for honest muscle and sweat.

>>51057400
You can do it but be aware that 5e modules are encounter-based and assume fights. A lot. Also Lost Mine is really bland although has some nice touches.

>>51057578
I think I am starting to really like this idea.

How do people feel about not having clerics in their game? From both a DM and a PC standpoint?

>>51058171
I actually like clerics, but I greatly limit their spellcasting powers. I make healing without magic much more powerful, too.

I love the idea that "A HOLY MAN SHALL SPILL NO BLOOD" so some dude braught a club to war.

>>51057521
>I never agreed to every rule in the rulebook. I never signed and dated 'em. I agreed to play a game dmed by you, and I expect you to give me some chance to play the character I want to play.
The agreement includes following the rules of the game we (the group, collectively) has chosen to play.
If my entire group wants to play super heroes, we're not gonna run b/x, for example. But if I am running b/x, we assume that we are following all the rules, and I make that clear to all my players.

>Depending on the game (read: 3.5) it can be perfectly balanced to allow casting in plate armor.
And that's exactly why I wouldn't make the rules "casters an never wear armor" actually part of my setting. Because then, if I happen to be playing a different ruleset, I won't have to fucking retcon it or radically alter shit.

>>51058171
I like clerics. They're cool. I wouldn't want to remove them from my games. I wouldn't protest if a DM removed them but I do think that some sort of healing magic should be something the players are allowed to have.

>>51057691
>Classes have major disadvantages built in
That's dumb. If I just wanna be a dude who fights (also known as a fighting man), why do I have to have some sort of crippling disadvantage?

>>51058171
I would prefer if healing spells were just white magic.
Then instead of a cleric class anyone could worship any god and gaining favor with them gives you boons. Like the way most roguelikes do it.
If you worship "Trog god of rage" you gain favor for killing creatures and damning their souls to be his slaves in the afterlife. You gain even more favor by killing wizards and burning their spellbooks. At a certain point he grants you the ability to go into a blood frenzy for more damage, or you wake one morning with a serrated holy axe etc.
Something like that.

>>51058389
You don't.

But if you wanna play a special character, you're not gonna get more power for free. I'll make interesting limits and restrictions to work around. If you don't like those, don't play the class. If you're just trying to get more powerful, good luck.

>>51058403
I don't generally bring up religion much, outside of having clerics and paladins belong to one or two main religions. Regarding healing spells, I try to make healing something which takes time to do, and can be augmented by religious power, but still is a basically natural process.

>>51058432
>But if you wanna play a special character,
Oh, I see. That's fine, I just got confused because of the way you said
>Classes have major disadvantages built in
which made me think you were doing this to all classes.

>>51045657
The closet-fighting thing was a joke <spoiler>it was a joke...right?</spoiler>

>>51058483
Yeah it was.

>>51058462
Well not to fighter and thief.

Clerics and magic users have a little (no edged weapons/weak in combat to have time to study spells)

Barbarian, Druids, paladins, monks, psionicists and mechanicians have about as much built in disadvantages as I'd really need to balance any class I'd allow in my campaign.

>>51053430
for the most part I say yes to them, only OSR games in physical format that I own that don't have some form of them somewhere are Whitehack and Pars Fortuna, and both of those handle classes a fair bit differently then the normal way OSR does

>>51053610
depends on the class, but often there's a pretty good reason for them, like for Thieves anything above Leather is probably going to interfere with most of their skills in some form or another, or with Magic-Users, while not universal, most will be frail enough physically that they wouldn't be able to both move at a good pace in heavy armor and be able to concentrate enough to cast most spells(not to mention their flexibility needed for some spells would be impaired as well)

>>51054571
>because that's the rules
that just feels both lazy and lame if that's literally the only reason something is the case

>>51056309
>Let's say a thief wears leather armor, then changes to plate to disguise himself

>>51056349
>I would just assume he's still wearing his leather armor under the disguise.
He's wearing leather armor underneath his platemail? His platemail isn't actually really platemail somehow and affords no protection despite looking exactly like platemail? Neither of these options seems at all reasonable. So I think we're back to a class-determined maximum armor rating (the platemail protects the thief no better than leather because he isn't proficient with it) and/or the armor interfering with the thief's class abilities (because if you remove the thief's skills, it's in no way unbalancing for him to gain the full protection of platemail).

>>51056008
>Which spell's addition to the game was the biggest mistake: Magic Missile, or Wish?
At higher levels, when you get multiple missiles, you already have access to much more impressive damage spells, like fireball. At lower levels, using up a spell slot to do an attack that's worth little more than an arrow that hits is hardly game breaking. So what's the problem?

>>51059345
>that just feels
I don't care about your feels.
It's a game. I don't have to justify every single rule in an in-character way. That way lies madness.

>>51059390
>Neither of these options seems at all reasonable.
I'd rather make a ruling that is conductive to fun at the table than to go all anal about some minor detail.

Look, if you guys want to go around building your setting around the rules, that's fine, you do you (the result is forgotten realms tho, so I don't think that's such a good idea). But I'm perfectly aware (and so are my players) that I'm playing a game, and that sometimes, a rule exists to keep the game fun, even if makes no in-setting sense

All right, I have thought of a way to balance that "infinite damage" cantrip in a way that will keep everyone happy!

>Illusion Rock
>range 20ft
>you conjure a fist-sized rock into existence and throw it at an enemy. Enemy takes 1d3 damage. Save vs spell* negates.
>*any creature that saves against the spell can never be affected by this spell again.

>>51057357
>wishing for more wishes
see, with the "wishes are granted by an entity which uses its actual powers and skills and relationships to grant them" model, wishing for more wishes generally results in "hah, good one, you have ten more wishes, you'd better be spending them all on wishing I won't kill you for this bullshit"

>>51058483
that thread was mostly people having fun, friend.

Is there a way to do Race-As-Class without pigeon-holing a whole race as a single entity?

>>51056008
I like how OD&D's LBBs handle the whole thing with genies.
>The Efreet Bottle forces the Efreet within to serve you for a thousand and one days.
>The Ring of Djinn Summoning serves the wearer permanently, and appears when called.
>Djinn can carry 600cn, create food and drink, create permanent "soft goods and wooden objects", create temporary metal objects (Djinn-gold lasts a day).
>Efreet are as above, but can carry 10,000cn and create Walls of Fire, and are stronger in combat.

Basically, fuck the unlimited monkey's paw stuff and just give 'em a powerful magical servant as in Aladdin.

Really, an actual monkey paw would be better than the Wish spell. At least there there's an understanding that it'll fuck you over no matter the rules-lawyering.

>>51060363
ACKs has multiple classes for each race.

>>51060363
Go the ACKS route and do Race-as-Several-Classes instead.

For example, you know how Humans have four classes? Figure out 2-4 relatively unique classes for the other races. Maybe they're just light tweaks of the human races, but that's alright as long as they still get something to differentiate themselves.

>>51060363

Your first problem is assuming that everyone in a race has an adventuring class. Most humans aren't Fighters or Magic Users or Clerics or Rogues, those are exceptional individuals.
In the same way, demihumans can have lots of different positions and skills, but the ones who run off to go adventuring with humans aren't like that. Because those ones are basically their race's equivalent of juvenile delinquents, who have refused any place in their society.

>>51060363
Yes. Race's adventurers as one class with other classes being strongly socially restricted, multiple classes per race, npcs of a race filling non-combatant roles that might be considered other classes, and so on.

>>51053610
Everyone can wear armor, proficiency should be just that proficiency. Some armors require less getting used to but that doesn't change how much the metal blocks, just whether you can do anything useful in your tin can.

It is a different when you have something like magical aversion to metal which would affect much more than just armor or necessity to keep your hands free which would prevent the use of gauntlets.

>>51057357
What is the problem with magic missile or is it a problem specific to some ruleset?

In our setting the biggest effect it had was the aspect that the player can decide how it manifests when he gets it and I made it a plasma arc and use it for welding.

I'm not using clerics and letting MUs take over their role. I'm also letting my MUs cast unlimited spells per day, but it takes time to prepare spells after a casting-

However I still want healing magic to be 'a thing'. I'm thinking maybe either make it purely based on items like healing potions one can buy, or maybe let MUs cast a spell that heals but it 'blocks' that spell slot until the wound would have healed naturally?

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>>51052417
>It's like having elves or black people in medieval Europe.
Oh you.
I believe you meant "Orcs" there


>>51053108
Snake's wrestling, mate.
Allowing players to add a situationally-appropriate stat modifier to a save (STR to catch the falling portcullis for a moment, or DEX to duck to one side or the other?) seems entirely appropriate.

>>51053430
>Clerics, yes or no?
Yeah, but only as Knights Hospitallier/Templar. Or Dervishes, Sikhs, Solomon Kane Puritan Witch-Hunters, and all the other wandering holy fighty miracle men. Basically, I've always considered Clerics to be "paladins" anyway - not "priests". It's one of the reasons I prefer LotFP, and one of the major inconsistencies in the original D&D rules.

>>51053610
>How do you guys explain armor restriction rules in-universe, assuming you have them?
Ferrous metals are toxic to Chaotic beings and inimical to the winds of Magic. If a mage winds up getting himself some bronze plate made, more power to him, but it's going to be a lot of work and time to get that shit. Plate in general is also expensive as Hell, and most of my (2nd-4th level) PCs are still wearing buffcoats and helms for the maneuverability bonuses. Well, that and they're on a ship (so drowning is a thing) and they blow all their free cash on ale, whores, and stuffed two-headed crocodiles.

>>51061208

>that pic

Damn SJWs with their time machines, getting 16th century painters to depict more POCs!

>>51061123
Well, why exactly do you want healing magic to be a thing?

>>51061208
>Basically, I've always considered Clerics to be "paladins" anyway - not "priests". It's one of the reasons I prefer LotFP, and one of the major inconsistencies in the original D&D rules.
The original Cleric is basically Van Helsing by way of Moses and Bishop Odo, so.

>>51061277

Time travelers mucking things up should be a serious concern to us all. Disregarding the POC issue, the technological and ideological implications are sufficiently unnerving that we should cultivate an office of temporal enforcement, empowered to arrest illegal time travelers.

Time traveler class? Could alternate timelines work as a point crawl, or just an overarching setting connection? Thoughts?

Blame Sir Fang, basically.

>>51060516
That only works if the races in question have long lifespans and mature slower than humans.

>>51060363
The system I've though of is that other races have racial classes. They have to take at least one level of the racial class at 1st level, then they can takes levels as fighters, wizards, whatever.

>>51061392
>>51061463
This

>>51061516

The juvenile part, maybe, though I'm not sure even there. But the delinquent part absolutely works regardless of how fast they age.
Hobb---er, Halflings that run off adventuring with tall folk are obviously disreputable and probably not right in the head, for example.

>>51061320

It makes sense the magic users, especially the type that learn and modify their own spells, would attempt to create spells that can heal damage to living things.

Plus the way magic works in my system/setting would mean it wouldn't even be that overpowered. As I said the spell slot wouldn't be cleared again until after the person heals normally- so at least a few days the MU wouldn't be able to use that spell slot.

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>>51061277
Forget about the SJWs, it's the time traveling weeaboos you should watch out for.
>>51061452
You should read Continuum: Roleplaying in the Yet.
You shouldn't play Continuum. Though I don't think anyone is actually able to play Continuum.

>>51062000

Probably better off with hoary old Timemaster, unless you have a group willing to commit.

>>51058403
My mythic fantasy setting has a pantheon of gods specifically designed for this.

Instead of classes, you pick a species and then the god that favours you.

Assist another god for boons from them (aka. Multiclassing). So serving the gods of Hunger and Ruin would be a nice combo, but the god of Repose and the god of Defied Death would actually cancel eachother out (leaving you powerless).

OR you can go pure fighter (which is like going Commoner), serve one of the dragons (for Draconic boons) or become a magic-user (and potentially ascend to divinity).

>>51062197
The reason I bring this up is it (seems to) work well as an OSR concept.

Everyone has the same basic chassis for HD, to-hit bonuses, etc. Then you pick a central concept/background/deity to provide your class features.

Multiclassing has to be done via role-play. Level ups have to be done via role play. Your HP/HD don't increase with level, only when you get a boon that makes you more durable.

>>51058403

I like this as well but only because I see every class as being a religious one in the right context.

Religious Fighter? Paladin fits easily. As well as Zealot, Druidic champion, or other holy warrior types. Could even be a sort of follower of 'balance' and make an honorabu samurai.

Religious Rogue? Easy- make a God of chance or stealth and have them follow it. Could also be edgy assassin Gods or an inquisitor using skills root out heresy and fight monsters.

Religious MU? This is a simple one; it's a priest! Or druid, or warlock or basically any Wizard + religion concept you could think of.

>>51060363
yes see >>51060398 and >>51060430

File: Random Final Fantasy races.jpg (86KB, 1100x456px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 1100x456px

Why don't you people just play races based on your stats, no special mechanics required?

>Have High Constution and Wisdom? I'm a Dwarf!
>High Charisma and Dex? I'm an Elf!
>High Strength and Con? I'm a Minotaur!
>High Charisma and Strength? I'm a lion man!
>High Dex and Wis? I'm purple or something!

>>51062609
That's fine if your okay with all races feeling basically the same as humans.

>>51062609
Because that just leads to boring rubber-forehead humanoids. You might as well just make the game human-only at that point.

>>51062644

All races SHOULD be the same as humans though. Only in the sense of their powers and abilities.

You should not allow players to play races that totally ignore or mitigate the human weaknesses. Infravision races, sentient golems, undead races, breath-underwater races, flying races, these are all way too powerful in the right situation and ruin the game. Every race should be biological of a roughly human level of strength, durability, and intelligence. Tying it into stats makes it easy though, and fun. The character with 18 Str could be a human strongman or you could play a run of the mill half ogre. That's part of the fun.

File: Beastmen final fantasy.png (921KB, 626x851px) Image search: [Google]

921KB, 626x851px

>>51062654

What's wrong with rubber forehead aliens? You first imply that it's somehow better to use 'human only' then doing that, and even as my first picture shows it possible to do otherwise.

Besides many of the things you can fluff in the basic rules could be made into racial abilites. Your thief with a high climbing skill could literally just be a spider or ant person, skilled at it as in their nature. The powerful 18 str fighter with a cleave attack could be a Minotaur goreing people with his horns. Hell you could even say the edgy Wizard casting spells could just be the natural dark powers of the Tiefling that he is playing.

Trying to balance races or give xp penalties and shit is fucking lame. Let people be interesting races and stop shitting everything up.

>>51062689
>>51062792
If I'm playing a fantasy game, I want the race to be fantastical.

If I'm a Lionman I want the big meaty claws, the worse vision, and the superior sense of smell, not just a refluffed fighter.

And Viera and Moogles can't just be handwaved using human rules either because of the Myst-rage and flying, respectively.

>Let people be interesting races and stop shitting everything up.
Interesting fluff requires interesting mechanics to support it.

>>51062792
I know this is bait but I somewhat agree with the sentiment. Then again, I'm the guy who makes a setting with regular dwarves, slavic dwarves, and dwarves refluffed into dogfolk all in the same setting.

I also like the idea of shitty stats giving you different racial options. Low strength and dexterity? Shit dude you get to be a plant creature. Basically no charisma? How does being a troglodyte sound?

>>51063010
>I also like the idea of shitty stats giving you different racial options. Low strength and dexterity? Shit dude you get to be a plant creature. Basically no charisma? How does being a troglodyte sound?
Okay this sounds really fucking cool.

>>51063030

So you guys are saying you'd prefer races with different powers but your stats determine what race you can pick from?

So low strength but high dexterity can let you choose between a halfling or a person-made-of-ribbons with the consequential luckiness and weakness to fire respectively of each.

But the question is can't you just fluff your character as a race based on your class as stated above?

>>51063010
It's all fine and dandy, but now you gotta redefine ability scores and what are actually the scores of a fucking human.