/5eg/ D&D Fifth Edition General: It's Always Night Underground

Where can I find a DM that let me contribute to world build? I freaking want to build a stronghold. Forge Cleric was perfect for that... but my DM won't let me.

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mystic

I can't wait to play a kitsune assassin and seduce my targets before poisoning their post coital drinks.

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>>50978349
>In which ways can players contribute to worldbuilding during play?
Firstly, making NPCs important to their characters during character creation. I encourage this whenever I can. Secondly, just throwing ideas out during play. If they're not too outrageous, minor changes and mentions can lead to great wolrdbuilding.

>Are plot/fate/awesome points or other mechanics actually useful?
Plot points in the DMG (option 1) are fantastic. They give a clear-cut currency for players (not characters, but the players themselves) to build into the world. I recommend any experienced DM that wants their players to be more involved give them a go, they've worked fantastically for me.

>>50978424
My DM ;^*

>Bad guys doing evil things in front of the party and authorities
>Literally trying to kill innocents
>Party moves to stop them
>Authorities try to stop party because the evil guys "aren't doing anything evil"
>Us: So they work with the bad guys?
>Us: We don't have time for this shit
>Attack both authorities and evil dudes
>GM downgrades our alighments to evil
The actual fuck?

>>50978516

Your dm is a reactionary, railroading douchebag.

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>>50978473
Every thread until real one comes out

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Virtuosity: You are extraordinarily talented in a single pursuit. Choose a single crafting Tool, Musical Instrument, Gaming Set or Performance form (Dancing, Songwriting, Playwright ect).

You gain expertise and add double your proficiency to skill checks in that pursuit.
You can choose to take 10 on checks related to that pursuit.
With sufficient time, expense and a permanent study or workshop, you can attempt to create a significant work of art. The successful creation of a significant work will reward you with wealth, or can instead be used to gain Reknown with a guild, local Fame, or even Favor with a powerful patron.
Failure results in a mundane work that is worth only 1/10th of the initial cost.
Create Extraordinary Work - DC 20 time: 1 month. Cost 100 gp. Success 750 gp
Create Master Work - DC 25 time: 1 month. Cost 250 gp. Success 2,500 gp
Create Legendary Work - DC 30 time: 1 month. Cost 500 gp. Result 7,500 gp
(time and cost can represent arranging a tournament for Gaming, or the staging of a large-scale public performance)

Good enough to be a full Feat?

>>50978516
He has no business dming. Slap his shit.

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>>50978651
Talented: Choose a single skill. You gain proficiency in that skill. If you are already proficient, you gain expertise in it, and you may add double your proficiency bonus when using that skill.
Gain +1 to the ability score associated with this skill.
You may take this feat multiple times, but not for a skill in which you already have expertise.


Deft Hand: You are finely practiced in the use of a particular set of equipment. Choose one Kit from the PHB, you may add double your proficiency bonus when using this Kit. Gain +1 to a single ability score.
Modification: Climber's Kit- Using this set of gear, you may roll to climb using your Dexterity modifier.
Second-Story Tools- These specialized Thieves' Tools allow you to use your Intelligence or Dexterity modifier to climb, in addition to any proficiency bonus from with Thieves' Tools. They are not easily concealable, and are recognized as contraband in most civilized settlements. Cost: 25gp.

>>50978651

The whole latter thing seems a bit too complex and more something the DM should personally go through with the player rather than be handed the rules by you.

But that's just my opinion.

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>>50977923

IT'S BACK BABY

>>50978516
your dm needs a good slapping.

>>50978516
>Literally trying to kill innocents

I get the feeling we need to know a little more here. Or perhaps you needed to know a little more about these "innocents".

>>50978740
How the fuck do you figure?

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>>50978719
I just intended to create a relatively simple system that aligned with the Works of Art in the Treasure lists, as a basic guideline. To give the players a sense of what the DC to Reward ratio was.
Most people's complaints about skills is that they don't have a basis for what's what DC.

Now the guy with Virtuosity knows that gaining Favor with the Pope by painting his chapel ceiling is DC 30.

>>50978503
Rereading the DMG option I just realized that all the players must spend their plot points for them to regain the point spent. It seems to be a nice mechanic to avoid abuse by one player while keeping everyone at the same footing.

Option 2 seems quite bad. Even tough it makes two players participate in the action it will probably lead to players trying to cancel each others ideas. The discussion sugested in option 1 seems better in the long run.

>>50978750
They were unnarmed people (non threatening looking women and men with commoner's clothing) in the middle of a street attacked by what looked like thugs/mercenaries/bandits

>>50978849
When the local authorities shrugged, you should have suspected something was up.
At the very least you should have used non-lethal force against everyone.

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>>50978516

This is one reason I don't like alignments. This kind of situation would be much better off if both sides were just encouraged to think about what actually happened rather than worrying about what it means on an arbitrary morality grid.

>>50978740
I wish.

What's a good name for this Feat?

Increase your Dexterity score by 1 to a maximum of 20
Your unarmed strikes may use your Dexterity modifier as a bonus to hit and damage.
Your unarmed strikes gain a +1 bonus to hit rolls, and deal 1d4 base damage
You can use your bonus action to make an additional unarmed strike

>>50978913
Non lethal only works on melee attacks, ranged and spells are still always lethal.

Also why not suspect the authorities are actually evil too? they were being pretty cunt till that moment not letting us have our weapons and were escorting us outside the town (we unintendedly appeared in the middle of the city through a tunnel that's why we were be able to enter in the city while armed)

>>50978922
This too. I don't run my campaign with Alignments. It encourages players to be assholes and DM's to lay stupid alignment traps.

>>50978953
"Fuck monks, am I right?" would be a good name

>>50978953

Martial Arts.

>>50978953
'1 level monk dip: the feat'?

>>50978651
The monetary values seem to be a little off. The results for sucess are way too high (7,5 to 15 times the initial investiment) and should be more like the results for the other downtime activities.

Also, the "You gain expertise" part is unecessary. Expertise isn't a game mechanic, just happens to be the name of a class feature that lets you add double your proficientcy bonus on skill checks, what is already said in the feat description.

Otherwise, it seems to be a nice feat, especially because of the roleplaying effects.

>>50978984
>>50978991
>>50978992

All sound great.

>>50978922
>arbitrary morality grid
You can chalk up this "one reason you don't like alignments" to not understanding the alignment system. They are not arbitrary or subjective. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are elemental forces in most D&D settings the same way Fire and Earth are. They are an intrinsic part of the universe, and the exact extent to which any action is "Good" or "Chaotic" (if at all) has been codified by some godlike being or reality itself; it is immutable.

>>50978516
The problem is your GM also doesn't understand alignments. What you did was not Evil, merely Chaotic, and in no way would be enough to shift a party member, let alone the whole party, all the way to the right. Alignment shifts happen gradually, after many repeated actions that lean one way, without so many opposing actions to offset them.

>>50978991
>>50978992
That's actually better than martial arts, like way better, see how you don't have to attack first to get the bonus action also you get +1 to hit and +1 o Dex

>>50978969
>Also why not suspect the authorities are actually evil too?
If they are, then you have to realize that you are declaring war on the entire town/city/settlement's government.
Your alignment change leads me to believe that there was more to the story, (or you DM was being strangely cuntish).

>>50978953
Tavern Snorer

>>50979015
"Martial Arts"?

>>50979018
Are you evil if you help a kid lost get to his parents if later in life the kid kills his parents? fucking no, you only turn evil if you willingly do evil stuff, saving what it seems innocent people isn't evil

>>50979039
Monk's feature, did you ever play 5e?

>>50978349
>In which ways can players contribute to worldbuilding during play?

I actually ask my players for their input before I start the game. I've been with the same group for almost ten years now, so we all know each other and can play off one another really well.

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>>50979039
Ah NM the 1st level monk ability.
So the +1 to hit needs to be dropped, and the shield, armor restriction added, so that it's a feat equivalent to that Monk ability?

I feel the Dex increase needs to stay, as it's a non-scaling version that doesn't allow for "monk weapons".

>>50979072
Just forgot that 1st level set had that particular name to it is all.

>>50979018
DMs are even worse than players at understanding the alignment system.
>hrm these guys are X alignment
>let me fuck with them / i don't want them to do some thing, so let me arrange events so acting like X won't accomplish that thing
>oh the party did Y
>they must be Y alignment now
Not how it fucking works.

>>50979009

Okay turbonerd, but what the DM thinks counts as elementally Evil often differs from DM to DM and definitely varies between DM and player. While people can almost always agree on whether something's made of rock, the same just cannot be said of Good or Chaos. It's not how morality works, either in fiction or reality.

Also, I would've bet money on someone replying to that post with "your DM just isn't using it right" as a response. Probably the most common defense for shoddy mechanics.

>>50978849
Be super passive aggresive and derail his campaign and go "LOL IT BECAUSE YOU MADE US CHOATIC EVIL NOW".

Kill evey named NPC that probably has a backstory DM put work into.

Care for random nameless hobo on the street.

D&D is all about teaching and training your DM. Use punishment and reward accordingly like when you are training dogs.

>>50978516
Just record alignment on your sheet as good and take actions as if you were good.

Problem solved.

>>50979117
The Alignment system as a hole is silly shit.
There's zero benefit to it's usage, the only in-game effect it really has is stuff like having magic items deal direct damage to you when you pick them up/try to use them. So dumb.

>>50979094
Eve if you drop shield and restrict armor is still better than taking 1 level in monk.
Your bonus action is non dependant on Attack Action, so you can move twice and attack as bonus action, which is better than Martial Arts's bonus action
Also you aren't forced to use monk weapons so you can Attack with a Greatsword and still get a bonus action with dex or str that deals 1d4+Str/Dex

This is way better than 1st level monk and probably better than monk if you go Barb with that feat as a punchy mcfist

>>50979117
The other problem is that DMs are very quick to apply alignment shifts OPPOSITE a character's alignment, but not towards it.

An NG Fighter, leaning LG, is almost never going to gain another Lawful or Good point even if that's all he fucking does all day, because the DM either doesn't notice when you're in agreement with your alignment or doesn't care that yes, that still awards points (albeit it at a slower rate the closer to each extreme it is). The moment said Fighter does anything remotely Chaotic or Evil, though, BOOM.

>>50978913
Seems like the DM would've still been a shit.

>>50978922 >>50979009
The DM sounds like he doesn't understand alignments or running the game at all.

>>50979162
Ah of course, it should be a bonus action available during the attack action.

Aspiring DM here. Our current DM is getting a little backlogged, and expressed a desire for someone else to run a game, alternating weekends so it would give time and space to develop the games.

So I've been toying around with some ideas and want ya'lls feedback on one. Our group really, really likes Catan. So, I figured I would have a section of my campaign be Catan-y, building up a region or such, and having to manage resources like setting up/ protecting lumber camps and the like. This won't be a huge part, and they might not even ever get to it, but I still want to do it. Has anyone done something like this before, how did it work out?

Also, I'm horribly dreadful at designing maps. Is there a good place out there to get a map commissioned?

>>50979141
>It's not how morality works, either in fiction or reality.
It is exactly how morality works in this particular fiction. Most D&D settings, including the current "default" of Forgotten Realms, have an objective morality that doesn't give a hot gay fuck about MUH SHADES OF GREY REALISM or how it's so en vogue now and merely an excuse for self-pitying, whinging edgefests.

>>50979150
If your party never has any dealings with celestial, demonic, or devilish beings, that's your DM's choice, but alignment is incredibly relevent there. The Gods of most settings are active and reciprocal, even to people who are not Clerics (or Paladins) of them. The extent to which alignment matters is up to your DM, and your table can choose to not use it at all, but that doesn't mean the whole system is a waste or doesn't make sense.

>>50979150
No, the alignment system is only shit if you're shit otherwise it's not bad.

>>50979150
Honestly, alignment is an easy ha ha ha no way to quickly catagorize characters into one of 9 categories, much like the whole Introvert-Extrovert sort of stuff. Except it's about morality instead.

It's very vague, but some people enjoy being able to put people in categories.

>>50978516
This can still be salvaged. You're all evil now. Kill or take over everything.
This is what your DM made.

>>50979230
This. If a Good god is literally killing innocents and gutting babies and drinking their blood those acts are Good and trying to stop them is Evil.

Also, if you, unknownly, help an Evil guy who seems to do Good stuff, you turn Evil even if you didn't know that Good stuff was helping a greater Evil.

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>>50979230
>If your party never has any dealings with celestial, demonic, or devilish beings,

Noble angels don't necessarily need to have a rote personality or "mode" of goodness, and it's completely unnecessary to have a campaign where you have multiple breeds of horned, scaly underworld monsters who segregate themselves by their "style" of Evil to different planes of existence.

In fact, this trope only exists in D&D and games emulating it, it's not in fiction or myth.

In the Greek Myths, there are a lot of beings in Hades that have a wide variety of agendas and personalities.

>>50979278
You better be joking or talking like a shit DM, because this is completely wrong.

>>50979303
>You better be joking or talking like a shit DM
You'll never know

>>50979278
This is not how alignnents work or what they mean.
Stop being retarded.

>>50979278
Nah, D&D has objective morality, and those definitions are cross-setting.

>>50979290
We're playing a fantasy game where magic and angels are real and just about nothing works like reality. Why would we incorporate real world morality and our own boring, known mythologies into it?

"Real" Biblical angels are horrifying and inscrutable and can do all sorts of shit we'd call evil but it's OK because God says so. Doesn't work that way in, say, FR.

Hey, I got invited to a 5e oneshot, point buy, level 5. Haven't played 5e before and don't want to mess with long spell lists. Also going in blind to party comp. What should I play? Eldritch Knight? Cleric? What do you think?

>>50979358
Bard works in any party.
If you don't want a spell list, Fighter Battlemaster also works in any party.

>>50979337
This, God literally said to the jews to kill everything in the promised land, women, kids, even cattle. That's evil as fuck.

He also killed every human and animal but for 2 of each species and Noah's family just because some people in two cities were partying too hard.

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Let's just take Demons as an example.
They run the gamut from Careful Schemers with loyal servitors like Grazz't, to raging savage beast like Yeenoghu, to monomaniacs bent on a very specific agenda like Orcus, to patrons of entire established societies like Lolth. And unknowable horrors like Jubilex.

Why should these Demons with wildly different styles, personalities and agendas be smacked with a single "alignment" when human's aren't.

Isn't it enough to say they are powerful, extraplanar and really dangerous to know let alone piss off?

What is a good all around non flying race/class combo for a party of unknowns that will do well in a utility role.

>>50978637
I am soo pumped for this class. Planning on giving my pally a good death and going with Mystic when the UA take 3 is released.

>>50979358
Hmm... without knowing party comp... I guess a Lore Bard would be the safest choice.

Cleric is fine too. They can be build in multiple way depending on domain.

>>50979337
>Doesn't work that way in, say, FR.
True, but you CAN have your celestials making choices that are indeed good, but may seem cruel to "lesser" beings. Such as eliminating a supernatural threat preemptively or making the punk-ass players do it

like the classic when this kid becomes of age he will become a conduit to a great evil. We must kill him to make sure it never happens.

>>50979230

You might not give a shit about shades of grey, but they certainly give a shit about you. If this supposed "objective" morality were written down in a set of tenets somewhere it would become rapidly obvious that there are deviations between book and player, and that the idea of the Player's Handbook being objectively correct about morality is pretty silly on the face of it.

This comparison with gods is also bunk, because you run into the same problems with what they want. Corellon likes to see the cause of elves advanced. Is that good, or evil? Could be both quite easily by the metrics an average player would use, because elven prosperity need not always come without cost to the wellbeing of other beings. What's actually going on is that Corellon has a set of values that he pursues and whether you call it good or neutral is a judgment on those values that holds no more relevant information than the values themselves already did.

>>50979379
> implying YHWH is good
Go play SMT game now.

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>>50979337
>Why would we incorporate real world morality and our own boring, known mythologies into it?

No one is talking about incorporating real world mythologies, I am using one as an example of an underworld filled with everything from relatively benign or helpful entities to ones that are insanely hostile.

"Oh, we've crossed into the plane where everything down to the plants is Chaotically Evil, watch out!" is trite, cartoonishly simplistic and needlessly simplistic.

>>50979337
>Why would we incorporate real world morality

Might as well ask why we incorporate real world weapons like longswords.

And I really mean it. Ask yourself why it's necessary to have longswords instead of some fantastical weaponry that isn't even close to a real weapon.

>>50979398
Lucky Halfling Diviner.
Well... actually any Lucky Diviner would work... or Lore Bard

>>50979439
>"Oh, we've crossed into the plane where everything down to the plants is Chaotically Evil, watch out" is trite and cartoonish
nigga we have a plane where even the ground is made out of compressed fire
if you can't hack fantasy, why are you even playing in a setting like this

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>>50979447
That's why the good lord invented Dark Sun.

>>50979447
Because longswords are cool. Not as cool as spears with red tassels, but pretty cool nonetheless.
Christian mythology isn't cool, unless you're Japanese.
Even Christians don't like Christian mythology. They barely read the interesting parts of the Bible and try to go to church as little as possible. Why import that into D&D if even the fans aren't crazy about it?

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>>50979447
Alignments really only exist to perpetuate stereotypical behaviors based on known myths, legends and fictional characters.
And since developed characters have a lot of nuance, it's really hard to shoehorn individuals like Fafhrd or Elric or Boromir into an alignment; they react to things based on their own prejudices, fears and longings, and not according to an "Alignment".

>>50979471
love this shit

>>50979460
>nigga we have a plane where even the ground is made out of compressed fire

So we are constrained to mimic FR/Planescape eternally? Why?
Those settings have a lot of crap that is completely illogical or silly.

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They've basically done everything but removed Alignment from 5e as anything but Roleplaying Training Wheels.
You can't detect it, and spells like Protection from X broadly work on large categories of beings like Fey or Elemental without regard to whether they are Seelie/Unseelie, Djinn or Efreet.
The classes don't have Alignment restrictions any longer as a rule, mechanically it only comes up with certain relics that punish specific alignments.

>>50979395
If you can't understand that CE can capture those types, then you're a literal retard.

>>50979524
>>50979460

And those things being completely illogical or silly is what's fun about them, AND the fact that the silliness is what's fun about it proves that alignment can't be taken seriously. A plane of Elemental Good is only a good idea for a game where it makes itself alien right away; or in other words, where it separates itself from the common day meaning of the word "good" as quickly and completely as possible, whether it's in the sense of the plane being horrifying or in the sense of it being some kind of magical cakeland farce.

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>>50979605
Are you usually this fantastically useless and unpleasant to have in a conversation?
I ask in all seriousness.

Because I have no real desire to exchange shitposts with you.

>>50979498
>it's really hard to shoehorn individuals like Fafhrd or Elric or Boromir into an alignment
Wrong.
>they react to things based on their own prejudices, fears and longings, and not according to an "Alignment"
This is exactly what an "Alignment" is. It is an average of their reactions to date, based upon their own beliefs and the situations they've found themselves in, compared to the cosmic standard for determining alignments.

Stop falling for the trap of thinking that being of one given alignment means you can't act outside of it. A character may only be NG because he is constantly performing L(G) and C(G) acts in more or less equal measure.

A character can act consistently based upon a set of character traits and beliefs you draw up for him right off the bat, and shift around in alignments throughout the course of several books purely by the circumstances be finds himself in from chunk of chapters to the next. There is little opportunity for someone who's not into spooky demon magic to get up to Evil shenanigans when he's stuck in the woods and never interacts with another human, but when he gets into the city he's cutting purses and robbing stores left and right. His shift out of Neutral isn't an inconsistency in his character, merely a reflection of his having an abundance of opportunities to do Evil to which he's always been predisposed. If he obtains enough wealth to satisfy whatever benchmark he needs to feel good about himself and stops robbing and from then on only does Good and heroic things, he'd gradually shift back up.

>>50979418
Angels and other goodly specifically leave it up to the pcs, else the pcs would endlessly whine.

>>50979439
Stop being retarded and actually think about it. We know you want to spew shit but actually think about it for once.

>>50979395
Because all of them, regardless of their methods and powers, boil down to wanting rampant destruction on a widespread scale. They want upheaval of law and unlimited cruelty thus they are CE.
You seem to think that alignments are so limited they can only hold one archtype.

>>50979636
If you can't understand CE can cover a broad spectrum of personalities within itself, as with all alignments, then you're a retard.

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>>50979617
That's kinda my point; if your running a setting that's a bit more ambiguous than sky castles filled with Super-noble angels, say you have an Asgard analogue, then what's the point of labeling Alignments? Really in either case?

The various supernatural denizens of Neo-Asgard are going to have varied moralities, and it's possible to get on the good/bad side of most of them without doing something "Evil".

So what you are saying is that Alignments are for cartoonish settings; and I don't disagree.

>>50979636
Also this >>50979670

They're not cardboard cutouts of each other.
You're the only one who seems to think they're so restrictive and confined to only expression of alignment.

>>50979591
>Roleplaying Training Wheels
Oddly enough it's the people who have no use for alignment that suck the most at roleplaying. They can handwave their own inconsistencies and imprint their own OOC biases and desires on a PC's actions without a lick of shame or self-reflection.

>The classes don't have Alignment restrictions any longer as a rule
This was almost always retarded. Besides the very few classes where power and features were contingent upon staying within the good graces of some entity (Paladin, Clerics) there should have been no restrictions on class. One can appreciate and work with the alignment system while recognizing that some parts of it are stupid. There's no reason that a Barbarian or Bard can't be Lawful, especially when fucking ROGUES can, and nothing is going to reach down from the heavens or wherever and slap the Rage out of Ragnarr for being insufficiently flaky/random/whimsical.

>>50979670
Neither Grazz't nor Lolth are looking for the Apocalypse, their main bents are not "destruction on a widespread scale".

I got into an alignment discussion with a friend from my group last night
It happened because he had a minor squabble with our cleric as to whether or not to slay a hag that had surrendered
Both characters are good, my friend being "Smite all the evil" and the cleric simply wanting to protect the weak
Both of these characters are good, but they conflict with each other none the less
Alignment is effectively useless for deciding when characters will and will not have conflicts or morality due to the nature of them being vague in many areas and very narrow in others

>>50979699
>Oddly enough it's the people who have no use for alignment that suck the most at roleplaying.

That's laughably untrue and pretty indicative of your being one of the local theorycrafters.

>>50979695

Definitely. I just kinda jumped in there, sorry.

>>50979739
>Both of these characters are heroic, but they conflict with each other none the less
Fix'd for accuracy, really.

>>50979770
Are you implying that one or both of them are not good?

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>this shit has been around since at least AD&D and people still haven't figured it out
Don't make me go dig out a 3X sourcebook, now.

>>50979736
Lolth is all about chaos and wanting rampant destruction on a widespread scale. What she does with her mortal followers is pretty indicative of this.

Graz'zt is all about widespread fornication, the loosening of barriers and taking what he wants. He thinks restrictions are the worst sin. This can turn into rampant destruction. And doesn't preclude him from wanting it.

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>>50979789
>Are you implying that one or both of them are not good?
I am implying that if they are fleshed out to any degree, they probably have traits and biases that really defy any specific categorization.

Was Ulysses good? Achilles? Really depends on where you were standing. People make decisions on what is "good" based on a lot of social and religious biases.

>>50979748
oh please tell us how alignment makes you a shitty RPer and how it's so much better when you don't use it
tell us about all the wonderful stories you can only play out without alignments

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>>50979803
Yes, this reinforces my position that 5e Alignment is Irrelevant and just a set of roleplaying training wheels for babby's first adventure.

>>50979736
>looking for the Apocalypse
You say that as if that's the only possible goal for CE and anything short shouldn't be CE.
Lolth has created a sustainable civilization based off of treachery and suffering for her own amusement. Graz'zt betrays at the closest possible convenience simply for the misery it causes. These are CE tendencies. They forsake oaths for malicious purposes. They promote cruelty for its own sake. They abhor good and honor. They ignore sensibility and tradition for a momentary slaking of their desires. Simply because they don't go around murdering everything the moment it appears like Yeenoghu or wanting the end of all life itself and the promotion of unlife, an unnatural and thus chaotic thing, like Orcus doesn't mean they're not CE.

>>50979736
True, but Grazz't seduces and betrays people, while Lolth treats an entire race like an ant farm, including making them miserable for shits and giggles. Their Modus Operadi can still be CE quite easily.

Personally, in the game I run, alignment only comes into play when you introduce things like the DoMT card "Balance" or talsimans of ultimate good/evil. I don't even have players write down alignment on their character sheet, I decide if they qualify as good/evil when they interact with an item that works based on alignment.

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>>50979501

>>50979844
First, you asserted that people who don't "align" are deficient. I never said people who write alignments down can't roleplay decently.

Secondly, I told you we weren't going to continue in conversation if you kept acting like a repugnant little shitlord, which seems to be your default.

This is my last response to you unless you use your big-boy conversation skills.

>>50979845
>set of roleplaying training wheels
Its a tool more for GMs than for players in all honesty. So that, at any time, the GM can look at your sheet and figure what you will probably do in a situation they throw at you.

>arguing alignment with an obvious /pfg/ provocateur
I mean it's at least distracting him from posting furshit but you should know he's just going to pull an "i was only pretending to be retarded" once he outs himself

>>50979815
>>50979848
>>50979851
It's like it's proven he doesn't understand what the alignments mean and is a literal retard.

>>50979866
>everyone who replies to me is the same person
>i can insult people all day but they can't belittle me
yeah okay just run off and cede the argument you can't defend

>>50979845
I tend to rely on Alignment for roleplaying monsters the most, it becomes a nice catch-all phrase for how I should frame their thinking.

>>50979844
>>50979845
Stop being literally retarded.
Go read the alignment definitions again.

>>50979871
This is true, but it also causes the occasional DM to throw their toys out of the pram when you don't conform with their idea of what chaotic good means

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>>50979851
>True, but Grazz't seduces and betrays people
So does the slutty wife who cheats on her husband. At what point does she start becoming Chaotic Evil enough for the LG Paladin to take a swing at?

Lots of powerful types indulge in moments of destructive whimsy or social engineering. Was the first Emperor of China EVIL because of his deeds? He didn't think so; neither did a lot of his countrymen. Then again, a lot of them likely thought he as a complete monster.

It's needless simplification. I feel it greatly diminishes the setting.

>>50979871

I would never rely more on the alignment on the sheet than my knowledge of the player him/herself. Not anywhere near as reliable.

>>50979886
I'm pretty sure not all of those guys are the same person, but they're all pretty much right
Are you sure you're not the one who doesn't understand alignments? Lloth and Grazzt are obviously CE and I don't get whether you're trying to argue that they aren't or merely disagreeing with the posters' specific rationale for why they are

I'm going to be running a campaign but I'm shit with names. Does anyone know any decent name generators?

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>>50979871
>So that, at any time, the GM can look at your sheet and figure what you will probably do in a situation they throw at you.
There can't be a single person who's actually in a gaming group that genuinely believes this.

Players are almost utterly unpredictable as a rule. Unless you are talking about "This guy won't rape the whole village because it says NG on his sheet." Because really only assholes at the table do that sort of stuff.

>>50979965
http://citygenerator.morgajel.net/namegenerator#

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>>50979965
search Fantasy Name Generator

>>50979898
I'm trying to make ogres more similar to their warhammer fantasy counterparts and I'm wondering how I should change them. I'm thinking CN but not sure.
>>50979924
True, but I feel like alignment arguments should be solved through discussion. Most alignments can be boiled down to some basic tenants (that overlap) and if you fulfill more of one than any other I would say good.
>>50979930
>So does the slutty wife who cheats on her husband. At what point does she start becoming Chaotic Evil enough for the LG Paladin to take a swing at?
To actually attack? When she starts attempting physical harm. To deserve some interaction to fix the problem? Immediately.

>>50979930
You seem to have a real hard time understanding the concept of
O B J E C T I V E
M O R A L I T Y
S E T T I N G S
That's what Forgotten Realms is. That's what the alignment system assumes. That's what the rules, sparse as they are, are built around supporting.

The real world does not have objective morality.
Forgotten Realms does.
The Emperor of China, if stuck in FR, starting and maintaining a war that kills millions and implementing draconic policies to quash dissent is performing Evil acts regardless of his ultimate intentions or how his subjects feel about it.

It is not a diminishing of the setting, it is a DEFINING ATTRIBUTE that SEPARATES it from every other setting you prefer where "shades of gray" rules and morality is a philosophical point to be argued that doesn't matter the slightest in game terms. It is the exact opposite of "diminishing".

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>>50979930
>>50979988
>Modern Chinese LG
break law? law break you

>>50979930
That's some intense false equivalence you got going there.

Not to mention that Monsters, in particular demons, are always that way. Like I'm no real fan of the alignment system but I do think it works well for the 'extreme' creatures.

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>>50979955
I'm saying that Alignments are completely cartoonish generalizations for player characters, and unnecessary for "The Immortal Demon Who Wants to Burn the World".

The latter is largely irrelevant to the Players unless the DM is trying to shenanigans the players with situations like >>50978516

The former is usually only important to players who want to enforce their strict "alignment" (Usually LG or LN) on the other players behavior, or want to get in with one of the douchebag alignments as a blank check from the GM to be a wanton douchebag.

People who roleplay well are going to do it well regardless of Alignment or the lack thereof.
People who are going to be disruptive jackasses will hide behind Muh Alignment as a matter of convenience.

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>>50979803
None of that "it's only a guide!" shit held any water when you could lose your class powers by changing alignment.

>>50980051
>accidentally walk out of a store without paying
>immediately lose powers
>your sentient LG sword kills you

>>50980074
Good ol' Gygax, ahyuk hyuk!

>>50979930
You don't have to use alignment if you don't want to, 5E is a great opportunity to eject it if you don't want it. But my point was that grazzt does those things A: Consistently, and B: As part of his methods in obtaining and abusing power. And how would the Paladin even know the wife was CE to start with? Detect Evil only works on creature types to begin with, so unless the wife is actually a succubus, he won't get any info. Even if she is a succubus, my players are all Planescape Torment fans, and might give her a chance to explain herself (loves her husband and abandoned the blood war for him but still gets cravings for illicit sex from time to time from habit and is trying to change but it's hard) rather than smite on sight.

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>>50980031
>The real world does not have objective morality.
>Forgotten Realms does.
I understand this completely.
I am saying that objective morality, as represented by a chart and a bunch of Outer Planes, is a rather needlessly silly and cartoonish trope, and one that is in no way intrinsically useful to D&D, especially as of the 5th edition.

I say this as someone who's ran several editions of D&D for quite a long time.
I fully understand how their various settings work.

>>50980031

Are these supposed objective morals actually written down anywhere? Like when you say that the Chinese emperor's mass slaughter would be Evil, is there some specific bit of text you're referencing?

>Idea: The BBEG is an entire city
New Morgothia
(Generic) Lawful Evil city
Upper Class: Duergar, Drow, Humans
Lower Class: Gnoll, Tiefling, Freed Slaves
Under Class: Slaves from various worlds
(Secret patrons:The Modrons)

>>50980051
God I hate that pose in fantasy art. I swear, if I ever saw some artist at a con with characters in that pose at their booth, I would want to punch them.

>>50980040
A completely fair way of doing LG. Justice may demand retribution instead of mercy. If you fulfill the basic tenants of defending the innocent from injustice and cruelty while maintaining order, tradition, and/or the general status quo then you're good.
>>50980082
Aren't succubi/incubi not apart of the blood war? Is a more gray morality the way to run planescape? I'm doing a setting based on it/borrowing heavily from it and while I already was doing grayer morality where even a demon could be good with enough time and effort I wonder if that's the correct way.

>>50980082
I find the whole idea of an immortal being "Predictably Chaotic" rather amusing.
Especially when said being is trying to achieve subtle long term goals.

>>50979955
I'm saying the fucker who thought what CE can only be and those three proved can be much more is the only retard.
Sorry if I was unclear.

>>50980051
Second paragraph, second to last paragraph, broseph.
alignment-restricted classes were always dumb except for paladin and cleric
there is no god or superfairy giving the bard magical music powers who's going to take them away if the bard starts acting too lawful, whatever the fuck that means, or otherwise pisses them off
i'm glad that's gone

>>50980140
Try not sounding like a wounded 13 yr old, see how that goes in conversation.
I mean unless you are one, in which case carry on.

>>50980140
Oh, okay. I can see that now.

>>50980140
Hint; it's peppering your responses with "retard", "fucker" and "shit" and the like that make you sound like a bitter, socially underdeveloped adolescent.

This is a generally friendly and educated board.

>>50980171
I'm just hanging shit on that autist, bro.
He just wants to spew without understanding anything.

>>50980198
>they can be used in friendly terms.
t. Australian.

>>50980199
You end up sounded more autistic. You can disagree without sounding like a drunken chad.

What's everyone's opinions of backgrounds?
Just throwaways or actually something well designed?

>>50980227
I'm the only normie here.

>>50979845
For monsters and gods or priests, it helps out. It's just unnecessary for individuals without factions to be beholden to.

>>50980236
They are well-designed. One of the best additions D&D could have added to core, simple but adds to your character's backstory both in flavor and mechanics.

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I want to bring my party into the desert, give me some fantasy desert/arabian music

>>50980236
I enjoy them since they add another layer other than race and class. Being a fighter with a noble background manifests as a widely different character than a fighter with a pirate one from both a mechanical and in-character view.

>>50980236

I don't like it as much because the selection of backgrounds are too generic for my taste and my group aren't beginners and can do characterization on their own. So I just give bonus skills and cash for equipment in lieu of backgrounds.

I could see it being very useful for new players who can't design a character who isn't a copy of the latest Mary Sue they seen in fiction.

>>50980083
You're going to have to explain how this is needlessly silly or cartoonish, because you've said this like every other post.

We might as well say that subjective morality settings (or morality-less, as the case would be) are needlessly bland and uninspired; not fantastic; unimaginative; played-out, ubiquitous, dime-a-dozen; nothing special, unique, or interesting.

I can pick up just about any TV show, book, or movie of the last two decades, regardless of the genre, and be clubbed over the head with REALISTIC and GRITTY characters who ACT IMPERFECTLY IN AN IMPERFECT WORLD. It's so SHADES OF GRAY, MORALLY AMBIGUOUS OR COMPLEX.

And what all the "moral ambiguity" ultimately boils down to is a bunch of suckers falling for bad moral arguments, backstories that are true of any millions of other humans who didn't turn into raving fucksticks, readers assuming depth where there is actualyl very little because they need to ascribe greater meaning to likeable or prominent characters, and no one capable of doing any amount of ethical calculus or real philosophical musings on the nature of anything.

>>50980236
You have to want something really specific before they start to look limited
freelance craftsman/merchant and innkeeper are the only things that come to mind.
But you can just re-flavor guild artisan for the former and folk hero for the latter

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>>50980265
>For monsters and gods or priests, it helps out. It's just unnecessary for individuals without factions to be beholden to.
Why? Can't a God of War be well served by Loyal Generals, Iniciteful Turncoats and Idealistic Rebels all the same?

Does the god of Agriculture or Healing really necessarily subscribe to an Alignment?
The Ancient Aztecs would certainly not subscribe to your modern definitions of moral/immoral.

>>50980131
If you want to do planescape more morally grey, i would try to remember the following. Entities born of a plane (Angels, Fiends) are born from the emotions of the prime material mortals and born into an environment and society that reinforces those things. Think of a demon like someone who is born in a Detroit ghetto. They can still go on to be the kind of person that you would never think came from that background, but it's unlikely as most go with the flow. Same with an angel as someone born into a well off but not filthy rich family in a nice neighborhood. They might become a gangbanger, but the chances are lower. Think of fallen angels/risen fiends as a platform for exploring nature vs nurture.

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Backgrounds are a great way to give a carrot to players to encourage them to give consideration to where their character came from before he became "That one guy sitting in the corner of the inn with his hood up".

They are a great idea.

Mystic is done we won't see it until the wizard gets his UA

>>50980149
Non-lawful characters don't have the discipline to be monks. Makes perfect sense to me.

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What's the best patron for a warlock with heavy Halloween vibes? Unseelie archfey, Old Scratch, or a powerful lich whispering from the shadowfell.

>>50980395
Fighters are described as having just as much of a punishing, rigorous, and storied training as Monks but they can be as chaotic as they like
No reason Monks can't

>>50980284
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTIIMJ9tUc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqElJnsUvtE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2TUN7ijqqk

>>50980284
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypuaJLHK_LQ

>>50980395
People you would consider "Chaotic" achieve the highest reaches in professions, hobbies and sports all the time.
Why should they suck at Kung-Fu?

>>50980395
You're forgetting that alignments can change and a monk doesn't suddenly forget everything they've learned after they fall on tough times and have to cheat and steal to get by

>>50980377
>>50980353
>>50980083
>>50980044
>>50979981
>>50979968
>>50979930
>>50979845
>>50979826
>>50979695
>>50979591
>>50979498

Sure is samefag in here

>>50980353
I say it helps out, not that it needs to be strictly defined. It's a way to give a quick hint for their personal interactions and expected behavior.

>>50980083
And here's the other thing you're forgetting with objective morality settings:
The rules are set in stone. The universe knows them. The Gods and other extremely powerful or alignment-aligned entities know most of them.

The PCs and just about everyone else kicking around don't.
They and the players can act all day like alignment doesn't exist, because they're ignorant of the whole shebang, but that doesn't mean it isn't being tracked behind the scenes by forces who are helped or hurt by it and would love to see it pushed one way or the other.

Characters are free to have all the moral dilemmas they like and agonize over their decision-making, argue ethics and philosophy, invoke gods and devils, do whatever it takes to justify or rationalize a given action to themselves, the party, and others. The fact that they can actually be wrong or right doesn't have to influence any of that if they don't know, but they may come to learn it later, much to their horror or delight.

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>>50980442
NO Kidding, you're a genius for figuring out that I'm often using the same format of pictures with similar filenames.

Complete goddamn super-genius. Your parents must be so filled with pride.

>>50980442
apply yourself

>>50980353
>Does the god of Agriculture or Healing really necessarily subscribe to an Alignment?
You're looking at Alignment wrong and you're looking at it in terms of Good Vs. Evil.

Remember that it's Law v Chaos which is in all honesty the more important aspect to the alignment. As for Good v Evil this deals more with how the alignment handles its interactions with achieving its goals for where it falls on the spectrum of Law v Chaos.

Law v Chaos is the more important question in my opinion when looking at the alignment system. But it isn't constricting really. Someone who is Evil can still do Good things unless you're really going for the cartoon style.

>>50980418
Monks have a later random starting age on average in 3rd at least. I figured the implication was that monk training was actually more rigorous.
>>50980441
No but in older editions it would prevent them from getting new monk levels. They would retain all of the monk levels they already had.
>>50980441
To become a great athlete you need some amount of training regimen. You need to be "lawful" in your adherence to it, although that doesn't mean the whole of your personality is lawful, perhaps.

>>50980459
And I would argue that there is a level of moral dilemma that you cannot have in a subjective setting: knowing as certainly as you can that an action or event is Good or Evil and allowing it to happen or participating, no matter how detestable it seems at the moment, for the sake of a real Greater Good (or Evil).

Not that shitty easy-way-out Greater Good that says you can sell your soul to save the kingdom, or leave this bunch of innocents to die because then you can stop a guy who's going to kill far more, or sacrifice yourself, the one, to save a great many.

But the Greater Good that acknowledges realms beyond this one, where an eternal struggle between Good and Evil has waged since the dawn of time, and that it both influences and is influenced by actions in the world of peasants and goblins, and that it is better for the well-being of the multiverse and the dirtworld that the Paladin let the kingdom be subsumed by Evil if the price to stop it is his own purity, that he stop to save 10 peasants instead of killing the Dark Lord who kills 100 while he is so occupied, or that he abandons so many poor orphan children and outmatched knights to the rampaging hordes to save his own skin.

A character with full knowledge of the "rules" and consequences of objective morality and a sincere desire to do Good (or Evil) is going to to be put in situations and face quandaries that the "shades of gray" fucker can shrug off with a few weeks of therapy or some hard drinking. The stakes are literally infinitely higher in objective morality.

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>>50980459
My argument was never how Objective Morality Settings worked, my argument was that they were limiting and unnecessary.
Why would there be a God tracking your levels of Neutral Goodness? Shouldn't he have a real sphere to be a God of?
Like Apollo, bringing and removing disease, and other ambiguous activities that require his followers to placate him?

Including another image so Megamind over >>50980442 can keep tabs on the conversation.

>>50980267
>>50980288
>>50980297
>>50980336
>>50980377
Someone was saying they were too shit and it didn't make sense for every criminal to have lockpicks or access to a spy network.
He legitimately believed this.

>>50980418
Sure, but then how can the Monk lifestyle be associated with Chaos?

Monk's are all about forming Order and finding Balance within Law. Ki is really a spiritual manifestation of their meditations.

How could a Chaotic being maintain the patience to perform the meditations and discipline that gives the Monk its power?

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>>50980478
>Remember that it's Law v Chaos which is in all honesty the more important aspect to the alignment.
This is only true in your personal setting and Michael Moorcock's.

Tolkien's for example was all "Good" vs "Evil".

>>50980513
Gods don't keep tabs on you. You mean shit to them.

>>50980525
Most of the Monk stuff is more martial arts than spiritualism. A rebel without a cause who knows he's only good at boxing and works at it every single day while still fucking up his life otherwise would roll up a Monk.

You're taking a base flavor and applying it as strict law for the mechanics to work, but that's not really the case.

>>50980514
Criminal contact isn't even a spy network
That's an absurd strawman
it just means you know a guy who knows some guys
I hope he didn't actually say "spy network"

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>>50980525
Monks are all about not owning a bunch of material possessions, keeping things tidy, and begging villagers for alms.

Really not restricted by "Chaos" whatever you really believe that to mean. (hint: it doesn't mean they act like Big Head).

>>50980535
I disagree with that. Elven society is incredibly Lawful and borders between Neutral and Evil yet they supported the quest to destroy the Ring.

But Sauron was fueled with a Chaotic desire to possess power, meaning that he would do anything to achieve his power. That is what made him Evil, not the fact he wanted power but rather his methods of obtaining it.

Aragorn wanted both Law and Power yet he is considered a Good character. Why? Because his actions in following his goal were fundamentally morally "Good".

>>50980091
In terms of a list that just goes down every conceivable action and assigns an Evil/Good/Lawful/Chaotic rating or a point value, no. They must be gleaned from the bajillions of examples that pepper every description of alignment in each source and splatbook.

3.5's BoVD and BoED go over a lot of them on the G/E axis in their opening chapters in a rather condensed manner.

Law and Chaos have always been much less well-defined, if only because Chaotic creatures are reliably, consistently inconsistent and all the weirdness that brings, plus the personal code vs. law of the land dichotomy.

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>>50980553
>Gods don't keep tabs on you. You mean shit to them.
tell that to >>50980459
Not me.
try and keep up.

>>50980563
He kept saying spy network, kept saying it for days. It was hilariously sad.

When it was said this was wrong, he changed it to criminal enterprise.

>>50980513
There is no God that tracks it, it's an intrinsic part of the universe. Reality itself notes everything and the Gods, if they are capable of seeing such things, can use that information as they wish (or just go based on whatever actions they have divined you doing, since they like to keep track of shit in general).

Even Gods with domains / spheres like Good and Evil are not actually the arbiters of those actions.

>>50980559
But there is still a Discipline in that. Boxing takes an incredible amount of discipline and if he focuses on training and development that is a form of Order and therefore promotes Law.

Chaos would not have any interest in this discipline.

But I disagree, Monk power is spiritual. Ki is not magic in the sense of a Mage or Sorcerer, Ki is something attained through meditations and the concentrations practiced by monks. Ki power is the manifestation of their Discipline.

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>>50980575
>Elven society is incredibly Lawful
Whaaaaaaa
It's entirely useless to frame this conversation in terms of your own private homebrewed setting. It really is.

>>50980585
I'm not wrong in answering that way to your questions.
Do try and keep up.

>>50980610
I was referring to Tolkien's Elves actually. Elves are fueled primarily by Law hence why they sought to destroy the Ring in the first place and why they held no desire in possessing it for themselves.

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>>50980607
>Boxing takes an incredible amount of discipline
So you are arguing that Mike Tyson had a Lawful Alignment.
Just so we are clear here.

No 5e Sergals?

>>50980634
When it comes to their training, yes, there is Order there. But Mike Tyson is a celebrity boxer, a professional fighter.

Does Mike Tyson box to fulfill himself spiritually? To connect himself deeper to himself? If so, then he would share elements with a Monk. Their power comes from their deep introspection, Ki power is the manifestation of all of that.

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>>50980626
>Elves are fueled primarily by Law
I think you only saw the movies and didn't read, say, the Hobbit. Or really any of the books for that matter.

Tolkien's noblest elves were causing massive carnage because "It's a pretty shiny, I wants it, I'mma takin it".

>>50980644
No.

>>50980647
I just want to know if you are going to keep picking up the goalposts every time you say something silly or obviously not accurate.

Please answer honestly.

>>50980607
So if a guy spends his days robbing, killing, cheating and womanizing, but he keeps a rigorous workout regimen, he's Lawful? He wakes up not knowing where he is usually, he's betrayed every friend he ever had, he can't even recall the last time he cared enough about a place to call it home, but he hits a punching bag and runs a mile every day because boxing was always the only thing he ever succeeded at, so he's Lawful.

>>50980575

>Sauron
>Chaotic

Nigga what

>>50980525
Chaotic can also be free-spirited, unreliable, and duplicitous. That they stick to their training regimen (if they even have one as such; their "skill" may result entirely from unpredictability) doesn't really enter into it.

And remember, it's a system of averages. Someone who spends enough time training to get good at Monking, if you define training as a Lawful activity, can still remain overall Chaotic if his actions outside of training overwhelmingly lean that way. There is nothing stopping a Chaotic character from buckling down and performing a task for a given number of hours a day or week.

Even deities that are overwhelmingly Chaos-leaning and incorporate things like wanderlust, having a short attention span, and doing whatever the fuck you want into their dogma (Akadi, for instance) have expected rites and regulations--even if, as is the case with Istishia, that is a rule to be regularly irregular every year.

>>50980654
That stems from an older dilemma in the lore with Morgoth.

When The Fellowship begins Elves are migrating and simply leaving the continent. They are not necessarily interested in preserving "Good" anymore then they are tolerating "Evil".

Elrond could have easily thrown Isildur himself into Mt. Doom, hell, Elrond could have easily overpowered him and gotten the Ring without killing Isildur but that is not something an Elf would do. They are Lawful Neutral/Evil as I stated earlier.

If Elves were Chaotic in their nature Elrond would have just slain Isildur then and there and either kept the Ring for himself or tossed it into Mt. Doom.

>>50980679
I know right?
I think he's drunk.

Let's discuss Mystic! What kind of Discipline do you wish to see?

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What's your take on warlocks relationship with their patron? Can the warlock turn on their patron and retain their power? Can the warlock every be freed from their patron's influence outside of the patron's death? How do your warlocks receive their powers?

>>50980675
It's not moving the goalposts when it's a direct response to your question.

>>50980678
You are looking at alignment as black or white. It's more like a political compass. You can have both Lawful traits and Chaotic traits the sameway someone holding Authoritarian values can also hold Left-wing ideas or Libertarian values and hold Right-wing ideas.

There is no black and white and mutual exclusivity.

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>>50980692
>And remember, it's a system of averages. Someone who spends enough time training to get good at Monking, if you define training as a Lawful activity, can still remain overall Chaotic if his actions outside of training overwhelmingly lean that way.
Sounds like Alignments are arbitrary, inaccurate and meaningless to me.

Does his Fitbit go off if he hasn't done enough Lawful to keep his alignment up?

>>50980634
Discipline is inherently lawful, to what extent it should be Lawful is up to debate.

Stop being a retard.

>>50980679
Sauron is incredibly Chaotic. His thirst for power would have him destroy the entire planet and every inhabitant in his way to obtain Power.

What Law does Sauron follow? None, he follows his own whim and nothing else. No Code, no Oaths, nothing that could bind him to any reasonable path of Law.

Orcish society may appear "Lawful" in that it is structured but their leader is entirely Chaotic.

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>>50980710
PSIONS ARE LAWFUL

>>50980692
>>50980678
The "drunken master" archetype from kung fu and wuxia fits this to a T. A chaotic fucker who may nevertheless practice a lot, or whose chaos is actually strictly controlled and regulated.

>>50980716
>There is no black and white and mutual exclusivity.
There is on the character sheet, and in class exclusions based on alignment which is what we were talking about.

>>50980730
>Discipline is inherently lawful,
Dark Elves discipline the shit out of everyone.

>>50980644
>sergals

I thought yinglets were the popular thing now.

>>50980750
So say 100 people claim themselves to be "Communists". If you spoke individually and tested individually those 100 people on a political compass test they would not all share the same actual results.

It is a sliding scale that goes in 4 directions.

>>50980714
For the Fiend pack it's the Office Employee/Manager relationship.

GOO is the "What are we gonna do today, Brain?"/"A̷̧͛̐͋͌͛ͮ̒̃ͮ̆ͧ̇͆ͫ̀͟͏͓̳͔͙͔̱͔͚̠Ą̣̘̫̾̌̾͛ͪ͆̍̂ͧͯ͆͐͛̍̈͝A̟̭̜̖̳̞̠͔͖͂ͮ͋͐͒̌́ͫͧ̚̕͜͞ͅÄ̴̛̰͎͓̖̙̼̙̘͇̳͈̩̹͚̬̫̔̒̂̎̂͊̏̌ͯͤ̋́͝A̒̓̎̿̄ͮ̃͏̶̶̨̟͍͖͚̱͎̩͈̮̞̠̮̦̞͎͉͜ͅA̷̡͇͔̥̻̪͙̲̲ͤ̓̾̃͑̎̌̈ͦ̾ͣ͘Ǎ̢͖̻̤͖̝̬͇̩͕͙̘̝̦̗̤͔ͧ̀̔̄͛̌̀Ą̜̲̝̻͎͎͎͍̦͖̥̳̦͍̮̠̳͐̈͗ͬ̇͂̾̑̃ͯͫ̇ͦ͑̋͂͠͝ͅA̸̷̧̠̬̹̟̟͍̞̝̦͓̘̜̲̫͔͕̰̺̠ͮ͐̓̽̎͗̆ͣ̽̌ͨ̀̋̀͞" "Got it, boss."

Archfey is "Hey, go do this." "Why?" "Cause it'd be funny." "S i c k."

>>50980735
Go read the books. The Silmarillion would suit you the best. You are embarassing yourself on the internet!

>>50980752
Yeah, but they stab each other in the back all day long and the one thing that keeps them from being a serious threat to everyone is their own inability to STOP doing that for more than a fucking week at most.

>>50980744
is the Monkey King Lawful? He's the epitome of Monkly badassery and martial studliness.

>>50980767
You offer no rebuttal but tell me to "read the book". That is not a reasonable response whatsoever and nobody is going to take that as a serious answer.

>>50980726
Why are you injecting modern world connotations into the game?
You realize this is nonsensical and completely does not belong, don't you?

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>>50980773
He is inherently Chaotic
And perhaps even elementally so, because he was BORN FROM AN EGG ON A MOUNTAIN TOP
THE FUNKIEST MONKEY TO EVER POP
HE KNEW EVERY MAGIC TRICK UNDER THE SUN
TO TEASE THE GODS AND EVERYONE AND HAVE SOME FUN

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>>50980785
Friend, just about everyone in this thread has realized you don't know what you are talking about. His response is reasonable because you are talking complete and utter nonsense, about something most of us are extremely versed in.

>>50980735
Sauron makes his own Law. He's a tyrant, hell he's THE Tyrant. He's the very embodiment of Lawful Evil.

>>50980752
Way to shit up his sentence to post literal shit.

If you are the imagepostingfucker, stop and think before you shit on the keyboard and then smash your face into it hoping to form a coherent post.

>>50980793
The big mistake people like him make is that they think these things as extremes and set-in-stone. Unless specifically stated (being supernatural beings, angelic beings, demonic, etc) then their alignments may shift over time.

To better explain, just because something is Chaotic Evil does not necessarily mean it is going to go on a random rampage.

There would be a large difference between a gang member who was Chaotic Evil and a Demon who is Chaotic Evil.

There is a scale. The same way not everyone who holds a Right-wing opinion is a "Fascist" or Left-wing opinion a "Communist". There are degrees to these things.

>>50980710
Order of Immortal
>psionic warrior/ battlemind
>str/int
Order of Awakened
>telepath/empath
>Int/Con
Order of the Invisible Hand
>telekinetic
>Int/Con
Order of the Knife
>Int/Agl
>Soul Knife 5th ed take on it
Lurk
>Int/Agl
>More like a psionic thief/rogue
Wilder
>No idea what they'll be like
sohei
> Like the ardient?
>Honestly I think that it should have been a monk subclass and stayed celestial but oh well.

Just a random laugh at the grasp the 3.5 team had on alignment:

> Hennet the sorcerer wears an eclectic, makeshift outfit that is different from day to day, suggesting his chaotic nature.

>>50978349
what is most op class?

>>50980804
But in his quest to obtain power he follows no Law. There is not a single Law that Sauron places on himself or others. He destroys his own to advance himself, where is the Law in that? He has one desire: The Ring.

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>>50980793
>Why are you injecting modern world connotations into the game?
As levity?
That's legally allowed here, right?

>>50980800
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zOFAD6e9Bk

>>50980744
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYv9Ciajpuw
these are both amazing

>>50980832
God, please stop.

>>50980852
What is the fundamental difference that separates Gollum from Sauron? The Ring creates Chaos in everything that surrounds it. The Ring is a manifestation of Chaos and it warps those that come close towards it.

Sauron was not a "tyrant" in that he had any particular care in world domination. He had a single desire: The Ring and the power that it gave which corrupted his original being in the first place.

>>50980823
>implying career criminals don't often wear fine and expensive clothing
good one wizards

>>50980837
The way you're structuring your arguments makes it look you're a retarded troll.

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>>50980832
>He destroys his own to advance himself, where is the Law in that?
And then Stalin was Chaotic Evil.

>>50980851
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHliqlsig90#t=0m50
>tfw

>>50980837
>>50980873
And completely doesn't understand what you're talking about.

>>50980878

He really was.

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>>50980869
>The Ring is a manifestation of Chaos and it warps those that come close towards it.
The Ring tempts those who come near it with Power and Dominion.
Samwise resists it not because he's super-lawful, but because he's incredibly humble and content with being unimportant.

Please, please stop.

>>50980878
In many ways he was. However, Stalins motivations were centered more on accumulation of power not a specific object which in Sauron's case was The Ring.

There was no singular force that created Stalin's desire for power other than power itself. Sauron is a different case entirely.

In addition, Chaotic Evil as I explained with all alignments is not a singular definition. Think of it as a Political Compass. There will be beings who are more extreme than others.

>>50980905
The Ring creates Chaos in those who obtain it. Gollum murdered his best friend sporadically to gain it and it warped his personality into this uncertain beast that worshipped The Ring.

Sauron is a lot like Gollum only vastly more powerful. He sent the Wraiths into the Shire to find the Ring, not conquer it.

Land was not the objective of Sauron, not power to a realm or idea. He simply desired the Ring and was willing to do anything to get it.

>>50980869
>The Ring is a manifestation of Chaos
>Sauron was not a "tyrant" in that he had any particular care in world domination
> The Ring and the power that it gave which corrupted his original being in the first place.

Well, the discussion was fruitful. At least I had a good laugh. Thanks!

>>50980837
Understand, at least try to understand, that there's no singular alignment archetype for each alignment.

I believe in you.

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>>50980869
>Sauron was not a "tyrant" in that he had any particular care in world domination.
My jaw hit my desk at this point.
"sh nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. Translated, the words mean: One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."

It's literally written on his Soul-Ring.

>>50980923
If Sauron was interested in being a tyrant in the sense that he wanted to accumulate material power than he would have focused his efforts entirely on practical invasions.

Instead he sent beings and agents all over the planet to find The Ring and had complete disregard for anything material. Every action he takes is to bring himself closer to The Ring which has completely taken over his entire being.

That is not an Oath of Loyalty, that is pure obsession and obsession leads to Chaotic actions and impulses.

>>50980938
And yet Sauron was not interested in world domination, he was interested in The Ring. The Siege of Osgilith could have been won by Sauron, he had the resources and capabilities but didn't achieve victory until it became necessary in winning the Ring.

>>50980922
>Gollum murdered his best friend sporadically to gain it and it warped his personality into this uncertain beast that worshipped The Ring.

>Sauron is a lot like Gollum only vastly more powerful.

>Land was not the objective of Sauron, not power to a realm or idea.

Oh, my sides! My sides! Make him stop! Please!

The One Ring was a piece of Sauron. Of course he wanted it back. If you lost a significant chunk of yourself you'd also feel diminished.

Is subjecivet morality different from moral relativism? Because moral relitivism is cancer to society.

>>50980963
>Oh, my sides! My sides! Make him stop! Please!
If Land was the objective then I would agree, he was in every sense of the word a Tyrant interested in material power. But Sauron wasn't even a Material Being by the time the Trilogy takes place.

I just wanna say that whatever the fuck is going on in the Sauron argument it has nothing to do with me
>>50980309
>>50980459
>>50980512
so only call me a faggot later on the merits of my own argument and not whatever bastardization of Tolkien you three or four people are cooking up

>>50980972
Sauron was castrated and last his mangina, the One Ring being an engulfing weapon.

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>>50980936
Alignment itself is fundamentally based on a shared set of behaviors and mores within specific Alignment blocks.
This is literally the entire point for labeling things with Alignments, as has been asserted more than once in this thread (but not by me).

So yes, Chaotic Evils have to have a fairly defined range of behaviors and values, otherwise it's pointless to label them "Chaotic Evil" to begin with. Or to label anything with an alignment.

Which was my Actual Argument all this time; labeling things with Alignments is dumb.
Things and people are either Friendly/Indifferent/Hostile based on a lot of varying factors, and can be moved along that line depending on future interactions.

The whole idea of "I am Lawful Goodman, you are Chaotic Evilbitch, we are innately enemies" is cartoon-tier worldbuilding.

>>50981009
>The whole idea of "I am Lawful Goodman, you are Chaotic Evilbitch, we are innately enemies" is cartoon-tier worldbuilding.

Because you are looking at it like a cartoon. It is not black and white there are degrees to it.

>>50980735
>His thirst for power would have him destroy the entire planet and every inhabitant in his way to obtain Power.

But that's incredibly wrong. Like 'nigga have you ever read the books' wrong. Sauron doesn't want to destroy the planet, he wants to rule it. Everything ABOUT him is about his will to dominate.

>What Law does Sauron follow?

Morgoth's. Again have you read the books?

After Morgoth is banished Sauron literally follows in his footsteps in his goals to rule Middle-Earth. Not destroy it, but rule it. Destruction is so far removed from his goal that it might as well be opposite. There's a reason every time the ring is mentioned the words 'will' and 'dominate' come up like sixteen times.

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>>50980985
It's one guy who's giving "A Moron's Guide to Middle-Earth", by t. Didn't Read the Bookstein

And it is hilarious and sad at the same time.

>>50981029
This is almost worth screencapping this guy for future lulz.

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>>50980869
>Sauron was not a "tyrant" in that he had any particular care in world domination

>>50981029
His so called "Lawful" society is composed of Orcs who have very primitive structures. When you compare the Orcish societies, warbands, and behaviors with that of say, Elves or Gondor Men you will see a massive contrast in behavior.

Orcs are not Lawful beings whatsoever yet they are the main stay of Sauron's armies. The Uruk-Hai were far more the Lawful types in their composition and structure but even they were prone to Chaotic behaviors.

For someone who is supposedly Lawful he seems to surround himself with nothing but Chaos. Even Mordor itself is Chaos.

>>50981009
>wanting to hang out with Chaotic Evilbitch even if you AREN'T Lawful Goodman
nigga i wish i could get floating alignment indicators above peoples' heads
do you know how much easier it would be to land a nice job or buy a car

>>50981057
His motivation was retrieving the Ring, not world domination. He put all of his efforts into reclaiming the Ring, not taking over the world. Everything else was secondary to finding the Ring.

You know who else shared a very similar life view? Gollum.

>>50981033
>>50981057
Never read LotR or watched any of the movies, but I seriously hope you're either wrong or this guy is as dumb as he sounds so you can keep making these posts
Great laughs all around

>>50980950
>Instead he sent beings and agents all over the planet to find The Ring and had complete disregard for anything material. Every action he takes is to bring himself closer to The Ring which has completely taken over his entire being.

Are you retarded?

He MADE the ring. The majority of his power was contained in the ring. With it in his possession he could dominate the planet with ease. That's why he wanted it. If all he cared about was destruction he would have burned the shire to the ground and ceased giving a fuck after that. If all he cared about was destruction he wouldn't have cared when Numenor got mountain'd with him on it, but he did, because his goal was to CONQUER Numenor, not blow it up.

Like seriously read any Lord of the Rings book. Any of them.

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>>50981060
>>50980950
>>50980922
>>50980869

Will someone please scry for my sides?
Hopefully they are still in this dimension.

>>50981009
You argued that alignments within themselves must always only act in a certain restrictive way without ability to personalize. This is completely false as demonstrated by multiple people.

>Which was my Actual Argument all this time; labeling things with Alignments is dumb.
Things and people are either Friendly/Indifferent/Hostile based on a lot of varying factors, and can be moved along that line depending on future interactions.

These do not compute, alignments are your own subjective view of the world and influence how you act within the world, through roleplaying.

Interactions are not based on alignment but Diplomacy, Bluff, spells, the like and roleplaying.

>The whole idea of "I am Lawful Goodman, you are Chaotic Evilbitch, we are innately enemies" is cartoon-tier worldbuilding.
That's not how any of that works. If you just boil all of that down to your above statement proves you're a retard and have no fucking idea what you're blathering about.

Chief Alignment Fag here
Sauron was Lawful Evil
back to watching wuxia movies

>>50981092
>If all he cared about was destruction he would have burned the shire to the ground and ceased giving a fuck after that.
I didn't say all he cared about was destruction. I'm saying his motivations were retrieving the Ring, it was an obsession.

It completely took priority over everything else in his existence. To suggest he is "Lawful" is ignoring this fact. But you are looking at Chaos as a solid alignment which is just wrong.

He has Lawful elements too him but ultimately he is a Chaotic being. Obviously there are more Chaotic beings than Sauron but stacking him up against other Lawful Beings, including Sarumon he just doesn't come close at all. Saurmon is far more the Lawful Evil type than Sauron ever was.

>>50981094
Your idea of alignment is black and white, I am proving that is a naïve assertion.

>>50981060
>His so called "Lawful" society is composed of Orcs who have very primitive structures

Orcs were the only civilization to develop gunpowder and industry, as well as fertile farmland further in Mordor. Read a book.

>For someone who is supposedly Lawful he seems to surround himself with nothing but Chaos. Even Mordor itself is Chaos

You're one of the people who think Jacksonian fire'n'brimstone Mordor was all that existed in the Black Land, aren't you?

>>50981094
The DM is telling me your sides are not on the same plane as me

>>50981092
THIS.
He built the One Ring as a trap to corrupt and dominate the Rulers of the Elves, Dwarves and Men, to reduce them to his servants so he could be King in Middle-Earth forever.

This is elaborated on in even the movies repeatedly.

Notsureiftrollingorjuststupid.jpg

>>50981140
Fuck.

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>>50981137
>Orcs were the only civilization to develop gunpowder and industry, as well as fertile farmland further in Mordor. Read a book.

Compare Orc society to the society of Gondor and tell me which is more Lawful? It's not difficult to realize that you are approaching alignment as an all encompassing idea but rather it is a scale.

>>50981136
Just one question, dude: why do you think he wanted the ring?

>>50981073
>His motivation was retrieving the Ring, not world domination. He put all of his efforts into reclaiming the Ring, not taking over the world. Everything else was secondary to finding the Ring.

He wanted to reclaim the ring BECAUSE IT CONTAINED THE VAST MAJORITY OF HIS SPIRIT, AND WITH IT HE WOULD BE ABLE TO DOMINATE THE WORLD WITHOUT ANY CONTEST.

Like fuck even the -movie- has that one scene where Galadriel goes full lawful evil queen of beauty and terror at the IDEA of owning the Ring, because Sauron's spirit is THAT focused on evil and dominion.

The first words in the god damn book are about him forging the other rings that he spread among the races so that he could subjugate them under His ring, the master ring.

So let me get this shebang straight.
So fucking moron is trying to claim that FUCKING MORGOTH IS CHAOTIC?
THE TYRANT
The embodiment of iron will stamping out all resistance to his rule of power. The shining fucking example of lawful evil, of bending wills and crushing hope to build and empire of darkness and unchanging, everlasting evil. This being is chaotic. This is the shit being peddled right now, am I correct?

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>>50981176
HAHA, it's literally WRITTEN ON THE RING ITSELF "LOLZ, WITH THIS I WILL OWN ALL YOU NIGGAS" *a very loose translation from the Dark Tongue.

>>50981172
For his own personal power the same that possessed Gollum. But that doesn't make them Lawful.

You should read over the definition of Lawful Evil. Sauron had no interest in any codes, regulations, or rules other than his own obsessed interest.

>>50981176
And yet it is evident that he could have easily taken over the world without the Ring and that ultimately his obsession in finding the Ring is what ultimately cost him victory.

A Lawful Evil individual would have a far more practical mind in achieving goals.

>>50981009
>The whole idea of "I am Lawful Goodman, you are Chaotic Evilbitch, we are innately enemies" is cartoon-tier worldbuilding.
Confirmed for literal retard. Actually start thinking, I know it's hard but you can do it. It's going take extremely long and you have to learn to stop counting to potato but it's possible for you to be functionally below average intelligent.

>>50981029
This, this so much. Sauron wanted to rule Middle Earth. To dominate and bend to his will every aspect of the world. To make yield to him and make it conform to him twisted image of how things should be.

He wanted the ring because a majority of his power was invested in it. With it in his possession nothing (currently in existence) in Middle Earth could withstand him. Well, possibly Tom Bombadil. But we'll not talk about that. Without it he was a literal shadow of himself. Only able to exert his will via proxies and pawns.

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what the fuck is going on

>>50981217
Alignment discussion, not even once.

>>50981136
>I'm saying his motivations were retrieving the Ring, it was an obsession.
>It completely took priority over everything else in his existence

Because it WAS his existence. With it in his possession he could walk out the next day and cockslap everyone on the planet except Tom Bombadil.

>ultimately he is a Chaotic being

There is nothing chaotic about Sauron. Nothing. He's so fucking lawful his undead lich-like henchman went door to door ASKING Hobbits if they knew someone named Baggins in his search for the Ring.

He offered Saruman the chance to rule as his second in command once he dominated the world, the entire crux of his ring pyramid scheme was mind controlling the dumb schmucks who picked up the lesser rings (and it worked with the Nazgul), and his entire MO was warfare, enslavement, and industry.

Minas Morgul was its own goddamn city, and every land he conquered(and even those he invaded) turned into fortified iron-and-spike lawful evilholes in a night.

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>this thread

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As for Sauron's "fair motives", Tolkien emphasized that at this time he "was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up".[26]
"Though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself. ... [H]is capability of corrupting other minds, and even engaging their service, was a residue from the fact that his original desire for 'order' had really envisaged the good estate (especially physical well-being) of his 'subjects'."

>>50981201
Oh, man, you are going to feel so embarassed if you ever get to read the books...

>>50981233
The actual alignment discussion was good and enlightening
I don't know what this meeting of the Tolkien Book Club is fucking about but someone is obviously crazy

>>50981212
But his actions speak louder than your words. You keep saying what he wanted but what he wanted was clouded by his desire for the Ring.

The Ring was a stronger pull for him than his actual so called "goals" were. Everything for Sauron was about the Ring.

>>50981238
But I thought his existence was world domination? No, his existence was the Ring because it was possession by the highest degree and evidence of this exists in both Gollum and Bilbo.

>There is nothing chaotic about Sauron. Nothing. He's so fucking lawful his undead lich-like henchman went door to door ASKING Hobbits if they knew someone named Baggins in his search for the Ring.

But is that really so big a factor given all of his other actions and personal motivations as to say, "Yes, he is a Lawful being. Look, his Wraiths spoke to Hobbits.".

>>50981165
>Compare Orc society to the society of Gondor and tell me which is more Lawful?

Hmm, let's see, the one with a steward who disobeyed the laws he was supposed to follow in order to set himself up as king-in-all-but-name or the society that developed gunpowder, advanced smelting, and had a strict chain of command with the Nazgul near the top and the Dark Lord himself perched on the metaphorical tower?

Tough question.

>It's not difficult to realize

That you've literally never read a Lord of the Rings novel and might not have seen the movies, even.

>>50981252
I have read the books and never could see anything in Sauron except mad desire and insanity. Gollum was a more intimate look into Sauron's mind, albeit, a far lesser and less corrupted one.

>>50981262
I see indications of Law here and yet he still focused his entire efforts on retrieval of the Ring rather than focus on the more Rational decision of focusing on winning the war.

>>50981251
As part of a plan to seduce the Elves into his service, Sauron assumed a beautiful appearance as Annatar, "Lord of Gifts",[28] befriended the Elven-smiths of Eregion, led by Celebrimbor, and counselled them in arts and magic. Sauron hinted that he was an emissary of the Valar, specifically of Aulë, whom the Noldor in Exile held in high regard. Some of the Elves distrusted him, especially Galadriel and Gil-galad, the High King of the Noldor. The Elves in Eregion, however, did not heed their warnings.
With Sauron's assistance, the Elven-smiths forged the Rings of Power, which conferred great power upon their bearers. He then secretly forged the One Ring in the volcanic Mount Doom in Mordor. This "One Ring to rule them all" had the power to dominate the other Rings and enslave their wearers to Sauron's will. The Rings of Power were extremely potent, however; to create an instrument that could dominate even them, Sauron was forced to transfer a great part of his native power into it. Yet "while he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced".[29]

>>50981260
>But is that really so big a factor given all of his other actions and personal motivations as to say, "Yes, he is a Lawful being. Look, his Wraiths spoke to Hobbits.".
Yes.

>>50981201
>And yet it is evident that he could have easily taken over the world without the Ring

But no. Without the ring he had to resort to conventional army tactics and sneak around pretending to be the Necromancer in order to strike up an alliance with Smaug, a plan that was thwarted.

He lost his most powerful general in the Siege of Gondor, and it is DIRECTLY STATED that they could have just cordoned off Morder and leave him there if it weren't for the possibility of him gaining the ring.

>that ultimately his obsession in finding the Ring is what ultimately cost him victory

Except he lost nearly every practical engagement he ran into, and the only reason he was defeated was Gollum getting his ass knocked into Mount Doom, something so unlikely that Tolkien himself stated that no being possessed the willpower necessary to cast the ring into the fire while standing within Mount Doom.


Read. A. Book.

>>50981319
>Tolkien himself stated that no being possessed the willpower necessary to cast the ring into the fire while standing within Mount Doom.
So the Ring could possess even the most Lawful character into behaving Chaotically?

Fascinating.

It is evident Sauron was Lawful at one point but he became a totally Chaotic being. There is simply a natural progression to this.

>>50981291
>I have read the books
No one here believes that for a second.
It's like you are claiming that you aren't a virgin, and that vagina's contain a woman's second set of eyeballs.

>>50981343
I think you just ingrained a black and white idea into your head and you are refusing to accept another possibility.

>>50981260
>But I thought his existence was world domination?

His goal was.

>No, his existence was the Ring because it was possession by the highest degree and evidence of this exists in both Gollum and Bilbo.

Nigger the ring possesses people because it wants to be reunited with the rest of itself, Sauron. It bent everyone it came in contact with into exposing themselves to the Nazgul (going 'invisible) and walking into Mordor (Not a good idea).

It can't possess him because it IS him.

>But is that really so big a factor given all of his other actions and personal motivations

Literally all his actions and personal motivations are devoted to law and evil. You have yet to provide a single counter-example that isn't just straight up incorrect. Not even fan-fiction tier incorrect, but 'not familiar with the source material' incorrect.

>>50981336
I don't think it's enough to turn them chaotic, the strong willed heroes simply thinking "If I throw this in now the ring will be gone forever, but what if I just keep it a little longer instead? it's not doing any harm in my possession. We can destroy it tomorrow, yeah, that sounds good"

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>>50981360
Yes, because you are telling me that the ocean is actually yellow, I'm mistaken in thinking it's usually blue.
I almost want to believe this is a super dedicated trolling attempt. Sadly I do not think it is so.

>>50981291
>yet he still focused his entire efforts on retrieval of the Ring rather than focus on the more Rational decision of focusing on winning the war.

Because retrieving the ring would have won him the war, and he made zero mistakes in fighting the war due to the ring. He conducted a successful military campaign while also searching for the Ring. Hell if anything his downfall was not searching for the Ring hard enough.

>"The Ring would give me the power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner."
>Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly. Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise.

ABSOLUTELY CHAOTIC ESSENCE OF SAURON

>>50981365
>His goal was.
Was. His goal WAS. Then it took a seat towards the REAL goal and that was obsessive lust.

>It can't possess him because it IS him.
So HE has the ability to create and sow Chaos, manifested through the Ring, in order to bring itself closer to him.

By creating Chaos the Ring, apart of his very being, he hopes to achieve "oneness" again.

How's pathfinder reacting to 5th nowadays? Is it on the way out?

>>50981336
>So the Ring could possess even the most Lawful character into behaving Chaotically?

Where in the hell did I state anything resembling that?

The Ring BENT THE WILL. Bent. The. Will. To. Sauron. Because it IS Sauron. No being could avoid being dominated by Sauron within the heart of his power.

Unless 'domination' is a chaotic trait in the world between your ears I think you're just trolling at this point.

>>50981260
The ring held no sway over him in as mental domination way like it did others. It FUCKING was him. The lions share of his power bound into physical form . Because the binding held him to the world and made him more powerful. While at the same time binding the lesser rings to him. The only sway it held over him was a desire to be whole again and be able to curbstomp all resistance. Without it he would always have to rule by proxy. There would always be those that would resist his rule and rebel. With it he could through sheer force of will bend Middle Earth until everything and everyone in it became merely an extension of his will. You don't get much more lawful than making everything conform to your standard marching lockstep into the future!

>>50981386
That and he's probing because he's not entirely sure how much strength is left in Man and Elves, nor is he entirely certain that Gandalf can't somehow use it against him and his reclaiming the Ring is the automatic "I Win" button.a

>>50981407
It chaotically corrupted others into behaving irrationally, violent, reclusive, and hostile vs. determined to restore "oneness" to their "Lord".

How could you explain Gollum if this were untrue?

>>50981405
It will always have a core base of turbo-autists who WANT 5 pages of character sheet by level 13.

>>50981408
>You don't get much more lawful than making everything conform to your standard marching lockstep into the future!

That is a very good point, I will concede that.

>>50981403
>Was. His goal WAS. Then it took a seat towards the REAL goal and that was obsessive lust.

But world domination never took a back seat to any of his goals. It was always THE goal. Reuniting with the ring would let him achieve that goal instantly.

>So HE has the ability to create and sow Chaos, manifested through the Ring, in order to bring itself closer to him.

No? He never sews any Chaos with the ring. He just influences the wielder into wanting to keep it because of how fuck-off powerful it is and show themselves off like a beacon in the night to his ever-searching Ringwraiths.

>By creating Chaos the Ring, apart of his very being, he hopes to achieve "oneness" again.

No. By creating the Ring he hoped to dominate all the races of Middle Earth. He created the other rings and spread them around because they were all subservient to the One, and thus, to him.

Seriously read. Its a great series.

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>>50981308
>>50981319
>>50981336
>>50981365
>>50981360
>>50981381
>>50981212
>>50981199
>>50981176
>>50981165
>>50981136
>>50981094
The real question is:
Was it the magic of the ring or Sauron's own good genes that allowed him to beat 90% of Middle Earth (including trained Numenorian athletes) in a foot race despite not working out himself?

For someone who hasn't been keeping up the last several months:

What's in the pipeline from WotC now that Volo's guide is out?

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>>50981432
Gollum's driving character trait was selfishness, he killed that hobbit because he WANTED the Precious. The Ring used him as a tool to get back home, and was thwarted because A. Hobbits are innately rather stubborn creatures and B. Gollum had taken to not wearing it, instead hiding it in a mountain from Sauron.

Which is why the Ring arranges for Bilbo to find it, so it can get away from the greedy little hermit who has just enough fanatical willpower to avoid the trip to Mordor, and (like most Hobbits) simply lacks the basic ambition to USE the power in a way that the Nazgul can locate it.

>>50981494
More setting books, an actual Unearthed Arcana still seems well off.
And everyone has a boner for Psionics, don't even ask me why.

>>50981432
>chaotically

No

> corrupted others

Yes

>into behaving irrationally, violent, reclusive, and hostile

Only the first and last.

Isildur was far from a recluse even with it in his possession and that's what got his ass killed.

>How could you explain Gollum if this were untrue?

Ever wonder how Sauron found Gollum real fuckin' fast before sending out the Nine? Gollum kept the ring secluded and it extended his life, but he was a crazy fuck all on his own. The ring brings out the most Evil in anyone who bears it because it is a literal Heart of Darkness.

Galadriel was going to become a Tyrant Queen if she so much as touched it, and she knew it, which is why she sent it away.

Bilbo was a good man, a hobbit, and the most Evil the ring could enhance in him was Greed.
In Mount Doom itself Frodo was dominated by it and was just gonna wander around until one of the Nine rounded him up like a stray hog. Gollum would have done the same, but Frodo pushed him into the fire.

>>50981462

Motherfucker never skipped leg day.
Even on days when he didn't have legs.

>>50981494
Starting next Monday, we've got one UA each week for Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard. Should be 2-3 archetypes for each but Wizard will get four because ha ha fuck everyone.
Also coming in a UA right after that is a full Mystic class; 20 levels, 6 archetypes, 50 disciplines, and a psionic Fighter archetype (Sohei).

There is also the mysterious new adventure module codenamed LABYRINTH being worked on. Pendleton Ward (Adventure Time guy) is somehow involved. No ETA.

And there's a new season of Adventurer's League stuff and some weird change to that but I haven't been paying attention.

>>50981523
>the most Evil the ring could enhance in him was Greed.
And even then, Bilbo had been heavily exposed to Dragon Treasure, and had a cellar full of it. Probably didn't help.

>>50981538
This, imagine how hard it is to do squats without legs

>>50981542
full class in UA? That sounds ridiculous

>>50981542
>but Wizard will get four because ha ha fuck everyone.
All of the Wizard Archetypes are based on spell schools. And especially Enchanter is bad off because "Enchanter haz no game-I mean spells".

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>>50981518
>everyone has a boner for Psionics, don't even ask me why
Because psionics are cool
Dark Sun is cool
Wizards are gay
and everyone wants to be a shirtless dude who can triple jump over an enemy and stab them in the ass with a glowing crystal sword that just melted out of his arm while making sweet bionic woman noises beoeeoweowoeoweowoeowoeoweowewowe

>>50981577
>All of the Wizard Archetypes are based on spell schools
But we have Bladesinger, Theurgist, and Artifcer.

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>>50981586
I read that as "Everyone wants weeaboo fightan psionics."

>>50981608
Of which bladesinger is official and not hot garbage.

>>50981586
>stab them in the ass with a glowing crystal sword that just melted out of his arm
bladelock my friend (also eldritch knight, sort of)