Warmachine/Hordes General - /wmhg/

is this game good yet ?

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Wanting to make a Karchev list, here's what I have so far:

47/75
Karchev the Terrible [+30]
- Behemoth [25]
- Destroyer [14]
- Destroyer [14]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Juggernaut [12]

What should I add to fill the list? I want to keep it mostly warjacks. 2x Kodiaks? 2x Devastators? Ruin and some support + Mechaniks? 2 more Juggernauts and 2 Tinkers?

Just spam Marauders.

>>50951000
no

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So I started Act of War, is Magnus a part of Cynar now? Can he be played in Cygnar armies now as a partisan model?

>>50950793
Those are two easy examples where the army lists don't even need to be modified.

If you actually start going through the rules, you'll find tons of shit that can simply ignore all the terrain, and thus defeat the point of the entire terrain setup. Legion can do it pretty easily, for example.

All you'd end up doing is having players play shit to negate the terrain, and you'd make the game's issues with terrain even worse.

>>50952043
Yes.

No, at least not yet. If Magnus3 drops, he's all but sure to be a Cyngar partisan.

Since the skorne rework is coming up, what is everyone's top pick for their "lottery winner" castor?

>which castor do you think will see the greatest jump in playability

My bet is morg2 because he's so trash if they even make him playable it will be a huge leap

I am so amused at how conservative the WMH community is. This game was supposed to kill 40k and MK2 was hailed as the best ruleset every. MK3 comes out, changes things and suddenly the game is dead - like almost overnight.

>>50952230
I mean, +1 FURY is already a pretty solid buff for him, so maybe.

>>50952256
>This game was supposed to kill 40k
Not even GW can kill their own games, and god knows they're trying.

>>50952166
merc partisan. He'll mirror the Caine3 release.

>>50952256
I've never seen anyone but an idiot claim that WHM was going to kill 40k. They appeal to very different players, for one thing.

If anything, WHM has managed to establish a pretty solid niche of competitive players, which put it on the map for all the people who just didn't like GWs casual aims.

>>50952309
Yeah well that niche basically just killed off it's own community because of their stifling attitude toward change.

>>50952284
They were pretty efficient at killing Warhammer.

>>50952256
>MK3 comes out, changes things and suddenly the game is dead

Except for all the Khador players, who have a playable faction for the first time since mk1/pre-colossal mk2.

New player:
I really very much like Warmahordes "Iron Kingdoms" setting, but was wondering if there was anywhere I could find a ton of fiction to read. Each battlebox comes with a short story, but I'm finding lore stuff to be a little harder to find than I have with other games.

Which books would be best for finding that sort of thing? I found the big list of books at the top of the thread but wasnt sure which parts was the right place to look.

Also, has anyone ever found themselves in the position of having 4 starter armys? I got the mk3 warmachine 2 player starter set, and since I bought that set for mk2 as well, I have a very small army for cryx, cygnar, khador, and protectorate.

>>50953904
The RPG books have loads of setting lore.

>>50953904
Skull Island Expeditions is their publication website.

Iron Kingdoms RPG books have a ton of setting stuff, especially the old books.

The Warmachine storyline can be followed by way of reading the books in order from Mk1, which can be pretty hard to figure out. I don't remember the specific order, myself.

>>50951158
Thoughts?

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>>50951158
>>50954223
Karchev the Terrible

Behemoth

Kodiak

Kodiak

Marauder

Marauder

Marauder

Marauder

Marauder

Battle Mechaniks min

>>50953320

I've been out of the loop for a while. Would you mind giving me a run down on what's changed?

I play Khador so...

>>50954530
Why do people insist on spamming one unit? It's boring and ignores other effective models for what, one extra jack?

This thread is a ghost town. The player base has shriveled up. No one is left except for the dregs of the mini gaming world, all of whom are proud of how exclusionary they've become.

>>50954913
Okay.

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>>50954769
First things first, Warmachine now has the global Power Up rule, which gives every jack in your caster's control range with a working cortex a free focus every turn.
That solves the big issue of Khador casters not liking to run jacks, because they need their own focus.

Combine that with the fact that almost all Khador jacks got cheaper, our casters got more warjack points AND all Juggernaut-chassis jacks went up to MAT 7 and you got a really happy faction.

Our Infantry units which were already good (Pikemen, Kayazy) are still good and Man-O-War Shocktroopers are finally worth their points.

Things in Khador that got nerfed from the transition to mk3: Sorscha2, Spriggan, Demolisher, Beast 09, Winter Guard Infantry, Great Bears, Iron Fang Kovnik

Things that remained shit: Old Witch, Decimator, Black Ivan, Kossites, Manhunters

Everything else was either buffed or stayed awesome.

>>50955316
Oh and Berserker-chassis are still shit, I guess.

>>50954875
>Why do people insist on spamming one unit?

I find the uniformity is aesthetically pleasing and more realistic in how an army would operate.

>>50955379
>what is combined arms

>>50955388
Depends on the organization level, With one battlegroup and its units assigned specializing in one role and another in a different one.

>>50955422
So you're admitting you gear your entire group to fight in one specific way? That's needlessly inflexible.
If there's any one thing your list is even a little subpar at, someone's bound to capitalize on it.

>>50955498
Thats why you normally have 3 lists to choose from; but even on a one off list, making sacrifices for fun is alright.

>>50955388
Combined arms isn't fairing so well in Mk3. Even when PP goes out of their way to design a combined arms-themed caster/lock, they end up being mid or low power.

>>50951000
The game yes. Skorne in ~2-3 weeks.

>>50952230
You've got it right. The only way to make him worse would be to force the Morg2 player to eat the entire metal mini in one bite after every game.

>>50954530
You probably want Ruin in there. Take out the Mechanics and 2 Marauders and put in Ruin and a few solos. The Widowmaker solo is a nice idea for Road to War.

>>50955798
Mono-Jacks without Mechanics is highly questionable.

>>50955814
Mechanics are the problem really. The swedish guys who first played the Mad Dog spam have some interesting thoughts on that; it's in one of the Moot Point episodes.

>>50954913
Shut up and play Guild Ball

So after thinking about it, I legit think the Rip Horn Satyr is a strong beast with Kaya2.

>Give it Forced Evolution
>Give it Primal
>Pop feat
>Stones teleport it forwards
>Satyr pops animus and charges the enemy caster, anything in the way gets pushed aside because of Bulldoze
>Get up to 6 PS19 attacks on the enemy caster because of Smash and Grab being free damage

Or you could just assassinate an expensive heavy like Despoiler or Behemoth then Kaya's feat pulls you back so you can frenzy in a safe place assuming you didn't just win on the spot.

>>50952230
Makeda1, Morg2, Mordikaar, Zaal1/2, Naaresh, and Hexxy1 all have the most to gain. My money is on Makeda1 or Morg2 because they were the biggest fuckups going into Mk3.

>>50956262
I thought you had to forfeit your movement when you get teleported

>>50956262
>Give it Primal
>Satyr pops animus
Can't have two Animi at the same time, so casting Primal in this instance is pointless.

>Stones teleport it forwards
>Satyr pops animus and charges
You have to sacrifice movement or action if the stones teleport you, so that doesn't work at all.

I mean yeah it's the best beast if you just ignore all the rules of the game and do whatever the fucking fuck you want.

>>50954091
You mean Cygnar Island Expeditions

>>50955814
I dunno, they're handy but in Khador they're far from essential.

>>50954530
Karchev actually works better without Behemoth. He wants more jacks and Behemoth is effectivly taking up the space of another jack without the extra 36 boxes

ded thread for ded game. 2017 will be the last year of warmachine

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>>50956868

>>50956928
>>>50950793 →
bye

>>50953320
>Except for all the Khador players, who have a playable faction for the first time since mk1/pre-colossal mk2.

Am I like the only person who remembers earlier part of Mk2, where Khador high defense infantry spam was cited as an overpowered plague on the meta and served one of the catalysts for the introduction of the more anti-infantry focused battle engines/colossals?

>>50957569
People just have really short memories.

Just played 2 games against Ret as Skorne. It's really, REALLY fucking infuriating when a single Sentinel blows half of your heavy away with zero support beyond Issyria's feat. Like holy shit why is this allowed? The guy literally rolled 6 6 6 6 5 on dice-7, and meanwhile his Invictors were plugging shots into my solos and Nihilators because once again the terrain was off to the side of the battlefield so the middle was an open shooting gallery. At least in the second game the terrain was redone. I ended up winning because Makeda3 managed to basically solo Hyperion after tanking a punch from him.

>>50957569
DEF skew was always shit

>>50959025
>The guy literally rolled 6 6 6 6 5 on dice-7
So your made because an opponent was luckier than you? Are you actually retarded or are you just pretending?

>>50959025
>Wahhhh the dice in the game of dice were unfavorable to me

>>50959025
I once hit and one-shot Caine1 with Behemoth by rolling triple boxcars on a direct hit.

My opponent was so salty, he walked outside the store and yelled "AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGHHH".

>>50962339
Caine with no shield guards sitting within range of Big B? Your opponent was a moron

>>50962339
I hit and one-shot Caine2 by rolling 6 6 to hit with a Redeemer rocket and then 6 6 5 on damage. I had chipped off his focus with blast damage first, though.

>>50962412
To be fair, he was at DEF 19 or something and Behemoth was the only model in range.

>>50962593
And Behe was the only one that mattered. :^)

>>50952043
>>50952166
How did that work out in the fluff? Wasn't Magnus pissed at Cygnar because his favorite King got dethroned by an usurping brother?

Now that I think about it, why is Magnus not a Skorne model?

>>50964447
Magnus was originally working to put Vinter back on the throne. He went all "fuck Vinter" after Vinter let him be tortured by Morghoul.

He tracked down Vinter's bastard son, Julian, and long story short killed Vinter and put Julian on the throne.

>>50964447
Magnus2 was (kinda) a skorne model during mk 2. However, since he was a warcaster, it only mattered in multi caster games, so for simplicity they removed it as an option in mk3.

>>50964567
>so for simplicity they removed it as an option in mk3
Kinda lame it's gone. Yeah, nobody uses it, but it's not like his card has a lack of space.

>>50964466
I guess that makes sense then. Still haven't gotten around to reading all the fluff.

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So I'm looking for a new caster for Circle. I'm typically a Kaya2 (soon 3) and Kromac2 player and like running heavy beasts. I also have Tanith from Journeyman league shenanigans. Kromac1 and Kaya1 are benched.

I don't want to play Una2 because it's a gimmick list. I know it's going to get nerfed and I don't want a half-dozen useless burbs sitting around. I'd play her if she worked... at all, with the Storm Raptor.

Brad is getting replaced and fuck constructs, so Baldurs are out too.

I haven't actually played with the Tree. Should I? Or should I look into something else more interesting?

>>50964903

if you play circle and you dont want to play with una2 or wurmwood what are you doing playing circle?

Una2 also escaped unnerfed

>>50965749
>what are you doing playing circle?
Believe it or not, the game has existed before 2016 and Una2. :^)

>>50965749
>Una2 also escaped unnerfed
She will get hit harder than Karchev in the Summer. Nobody's doubting that.

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>>50961258
Okay, so I don't know what the best place is to ask, here or the WH40K general: I'm wanting to get into casting parts for wargaming (mostly terrain, but who knows), and I have a few questions:

Are there any good resources for me to get started with this?
Does anyone know what kind of plastic/resin other independent casters (i.e. not GW, Citadel, etc.) use?
Are there any pieces you'd specifically be looking for? Barricades, buildings, etc.?

Any help would be useful.

>>50955316
I'll never forget you Spriggan, rest in peace.

>>50964447
Big spoilers for the fluff here, forewarning.


So the way it pans out is that Magnus is ultimately loyal to Cyngar as a nation, not to any one person. He sided with Vinter because he believed that Vinter was the best choice for actually keeping Cyngar safe and powerful. This is why he stayed loyal to him during the coup.

However, he pretty swiftly figured out that Vinter was more interested in himself then in Cyngar, and combine that with Vinter betraying him, ended up cutting ties. That put Magnus in a pretty weird spot, he's no longer working for Vinter, but he still regards Leo as being too weak as a king(a point of view that had some real merit).

So Magnus figures out that Vinter had a son, and tracks him down. The Inquisition, or what remained of it, had him, and Magnus ends up taking him himself. This is likely a pretty good turn out for the kid, because while the Inquisitors wanted install him as the rightful king, they also wanted him as a puppet. Magnus, while he certainly wants to gain some real benefit, is honestly interested in making the kid a good king, not some puppet or crony.

This enters a big part of the story, as Magnus is spending his time teaching this kid to be a warrior and a strong king, while Caine is on orders to murder the kid, and doing his best to track him down. This ends up being a cat and mouse game for a while, before things manage to come to a head and Caine figures out that he ultimately can't murder the kid. So the two of them, along with a merc army, head off to where Leto and Vinter are fighting a civil war. Shit gets real for a while, before Magnus manages to fuck Vinter up hardcore, something everyone thought was damn near impossible. He almost murders Leto as well, but they manage to convince him not to.

>>50966820
So the kid makes his claim, and Leto, being the good guy he is, cedes the throne to him. This manages to smooth the rebels over, because while they had some shitty reasons for trying to oust Leto, they had some pretty reasonable ones as well.

So now the new kid's on the throne, and seems to be a good mix of his dad and uncle: He's not as gullible or soft hearted as Leto is, but he's not the absolute bastard that Vinter was.

This, after some time, scores Magnus a spot as a general in the Cyngarnian army, a post that creates some tension among all the people who fucking hate him. Beyond the personal grudges, there's also the issue of morality: several of the generals, Stryker included, look unkindly on Magnus, especially his willingness to use some pretty nasty tactics, like chemical weapons.

On the other end, Magnus is being plenty pragmatic, and most of the shit he's doing makes strategic sense, while also avoiding some pretty nasty causalities on the Cyngar side. And there's also the point that even when Magnus is being a real bastard for decent reasons, Stryker is telling him to fuck off, even if his ideas and actions are totally justified.

>>50966820
>>50966867
I hope to god this is legit, because this is officially my favorite fluff I've heard so far

>>50966921
It's a summary of Blood of Kings and the first Act of War. Along with the book fluff from about Colossals on, I think.

And Magnus is basically IK Batman at this point.

Alright my dudes. Getting bored here at 3:46 on New Years morning.

So I got a question for anyone around.

What are the changes everyone wants the most out of Skorne?

What is the thing in the upcoming errata that you want to change the most?

Preferably something not actually revealed yet.

Just want to get an idea of what people expecting or want to see.

>>50966253
ask /wip/

Retribution player here.

I just want Helios to come out already.

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Hey all.
Just jumped back into warmahordes and picked up a mountain king for cheap. Playing some friendly 15pt games soon and I wrote a list to try out the new caster, mountain king, and northkin shaman. Hows this look? I think the -4 def stack from the northkin chiller and the mountain king deafen will be effective.

>>50966820
>>50966867
Wow, thank you.

I always knew Stryker was a giant dumbass. Just look at that stupid Ginger, how can he possibly measure to Magnus "my personel nodes have doom missles" The Warlord?

>>50966867
>>50967607
>while also avoiding some pretty nasty causalities on the Cyngar side.
It's worth mentioning that he also prevented civilian casualties, because if he hadn't used those chemical weapons on Khador (which he only acquired because Khador tried, but failed, to use them on Cygnar first) it would have devolved into street fighting with a city's worth of civilians caught in the crossfire.

But boy scout Stryker of course ignores that and throws his hissy fit anyway.

>>50967735
Well, I don't think that's fair to Stryker. While what Magnus did can certainly be justified as a better choice, it doesn't change the fact that he did use some pretty terrible shit on the enemy.

I think Act of War was a bit too heavy handed on Magnus's side, because their relationship was always supposed to be a mirror. Both of them are absolute patriots, ultimately sworn body and soul to Cyngar as a country.

Stryker embodies the highest ideals of the nation, while Magnus embodies a ruthlessness and willingness to do anything for the sake of that nation. They're two sides of the same ideal, and should mirror each other.

Stryker is the one that will always rise to the highest peak if his nation calls for it, while Magnus will sink the the deepest pit for the same. So their relationship should reflect that mirror, with no clear victor:

Magnus asks Stryker just what he's willing to do to proect his nation, while Stryker asks Magnus at what point do you finally subvert the very ideals of the nation you serve and destroy it from within.

Making one look more correct than the other destroys that whole conflict, because it establishes one as right and the other as foolish.

>>50968068
>Stryker is the one that will always rise to the highest peak if his nation calls for it

Although the whole thing where Styker basically holds a shit load of (possibly) Cygnaran Menite civilians hostage and says "if you don't get the fuck out, we are going to murder these hostages" makes me question this interpretation of the character.

I've always read Stryker as a character that is willing to do some morally questionable shit for the good of Cygnar when he thinks it is needed, and that Magnus is further down that road and a little bit more honest about it.

>>50968100
Stryker has had some pretty shitty arcs. His notNazi shit was very poorly written in general, but I think their intent was to show that he was veering towards becoming just like Magnus, but eventually pulls himself out of it.

In it's way, I think his actions against the Menites were meant to haunt him, and why he's so vocal against Magnus.

It's pretty straightforward to consider Magnus what Stryker would have become if he'd kept down that route.

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And that's why the glorious Motherland doesn't deal with this bullshit.

Chemical weapons? Eh fuck it, let's arm an entire division with that shit and get them in there.

>>50962156
>So your made because an opponent was luckier than you?
No, my opponent was running more pseudo SPD8 MAT7 PS12 weaponmasters than me. Oh wait I play Skorne I don't have a single small based weaponmaster unit and the best I can do is fucking Nihilators who even if you need 7s to hit only have a ~25% chance to kill more than one fucking model.

>>50968671
Infact the odds are much worse for Nihilators. I need a 5 on 2d6 to hit, then because the Sentinels in that game were ARM20, I need a 9 on 3d6 to kill. Then if I want to get a single shred of value out of my unit which exists solely for the purpose of Berserk, I need to kill ANOTHER model with 5 on 2d6 then this time I need a 9 on 2d6 to kill.

I am so fucking sick of how good Dawnguards are. I cannot believe they didn't get a single nerf in the errata. Dawnguards get +2ARM when B2B on top of their 15ARM, bringing them up to a defensive statline of 12/17, something usually reserved for heavies and casters. And do you know what Immortals get? A fucking soul.

Has anyone tried making Warmachine puzzles in the vein of chess puzzles? Like, it's your turn, model A has already activated, what's your best play from here.

>>50968510
>Generic anime face

>>50967735
It's important to note that the specific chemical weapons Magnus uses are implied to be Geneva Convention breaking stuff, and Vlad's realization that Stryker was willing to die rather than let Vlad's army take a second hit of the stuff is what convinces Vlad to retreat despite having the advantage.

How's this for a Steamroller pair?

>(Rasheth 1) Dominar Rasheth [+28]
- Aptimus Marketh [6]
- Titan Sentry [15]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Despoiler [18]
- Cyclops Raider [9]
- Cyclops Shaman [8]
Cataphract Incindiarii (max) [18]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Void Spirit [4]

Advantages to this list:
1. Clouds block LOS for charges, mostly their heavies to mine
2. Better equipped to pick off valuable solos and UAs
3. Deals with shit tons of infantry from range (3x Breath of Corruption, 6x Incindiarii shots which can be fired from outside max range but still do damage with a 6 1 or 2 on deviation)
4. Cracks armour very well (Enrage + Blood Mark + Feat + Dark Shroud)

>(Makeda 3) Makeda & the Exalted Court [+24]
- the Exalted Court
- Molik Karn [20]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Despoiler [18]
- Aradus Soldier [18]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
Gremlin Swarm [3]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Void Spirit [4]

Advantages to this list:
1. Deals with tough infantry swarms very well (Trolls, Khador)
2. Gunlines rendered largely ineffectively due to a lack of victim targets (All solos either have Stealth or Incorporeal), and 2 free Shield Guards
3. Makeda herself can crack anything

What do you think, Anon-kun? n_n

>>50969331
Why make lists now, when the Skorne Errata are coming soon? Changes to warlocks will shake up list building

>>50969500
Because he might want to play some games before the errata comes out?

>>50969500
Everything is going to get buffed, so if I can make a good list now, in a few weeks it'll be an amazing list. Models aren't going to fundamentally change in their role.

Any copies of the troll PDF about yet?

>>50969827
Hah, epic "troll" there m8 ;^)

>>50966867
>>50966921

I am honestly impressed and astonished that you have this much of a grasp of the fluff and are completely unsuccessful in spelling Cygnar.

>>50969827
seconding this

>>50969932
It was in the middle of the fucking night on New Years.

And now I'm up way to god damn early.

The level of negativity in these threads pisses me off.

Mk3 is the best iteration of the game by a wide margin and fixes so many of the problems mk2 had. You can complain about individual models being broken but nothing comes close to Cryx mk2. The balance is much better. The errata is also great because it nerfed things without nerfing to uselessness which is a first for PP. We are also out if the era of waiting for and relying on "band aid models" like in mk2. Remember how MMM used to be king until croak raiders? That was awful.

Fuck off "ded gaem" people every community I've been to is flourishing.

>>50970507
In a way, Cryx balanced Mk2 by removing the list chicken. If one of your lists was anti-Cryx, your other list was just the most broken shit your faction could do. There was no "do I bring the anti-shooting or the anti-ARM" list, you just brought your best shit.

>>50968909

It would probably help if Skorne had some kind of spd 7 soldiers with anatomical precision or troops with AoEs that cause corrosion or something so that they had a way around armor skewing infantry. It sure is pretty shit how privateer press only gave them two infantry choices.

Also
>12/17 Statline reserved for heavies

Fucking lol

>>50970669
I can't tell if you're being ironic and just don't know Skorne, because PGMTs and Bloodrunners are SPD6 (unless you want to count the apparition you didn't know they had until now which is largely mitigated by their 0.5"RNG), and the AOE3 continuous corrosion from Slingers only happens if you directly hit (see: it's pointless).

And assuming DEF+ARM=29, that IS a heavy statline. For the non-tier 1 factions anyway. Anything with a better statline (Aradus, Warpwolves) has to pay a premium in points.

Is asking for troll related files a meme I dont get?

>>50970507
How does it feel to be a Warmachine player?

Mkiii also created problems where none needed to exist and their PR was just atrocious.

>>50951000
no

>>50970507
MkIII also dumbed the game down so much that most games come down to approaching the enemy in a straight line and exhchanging blows/shots until the guy with bigger numbers on his card wins (usually Khador). We lost all the funny tactics, like killing your light to block assasination with its wreck, throwing your models at the enemy to extend their threat, or slamming them to knock them down, beasts/jacks holding hands to prevent that knockdown, wrestling away shields to help crack something, setting up a series of pushes and throws to drown a jack, micromanaging your and enemy units to make the best out of cmd checks and much more.

>>50951158
Just spam Mad Dogs. It's weaker, but no one said it was bad. 11 heavies is still more than a lot of lists can deal with. Maybe 9 Dogs and Behemoth if you want to not be a complete memeslinger.

>>50954875
>Why do people insist on spamming one unit?
Because it generally requires a skew to beat it due to this game having a lack of hard counters, and since most lists aren't ridiculous skews, you win by default. Didn't you hear about PP's new playtester bringing Zaadesh2 with 26 Reptile Hounds and crushing face?

>>50970507
Mk. III feels more shallow lore-wise to me and that's why I dislike it. I feel like the models have been balanced for mechanical efficiency and gameplay reasons instead of what the model is actually supposed to be doing, and that just rubs me the wrong way. Not to mention the sudden and hilariously laughable power creep in some factions.

>>50971147
>We lost all the funny tactics, like killing your light to block assasination with its wreck, throwing your models at the enemy to extend their threat, or slamming them to knock them down, beasts/jacks holding hands to prevent that knockdown,

But those are all really dumb and the game is better off without them.

>>50971243
Options are what made WMH popular and drew in the crowd in the first place.

>>50971243
>But those are all really dumb and the game is better off without them.
It's funny because that's exactly what people say when people describe vanilla/TC WoW, ie. the most popular expansions in terms of growth and player count.

If they're dumb, just don't do them in game. Don't rob good players of a niche option they've spotted in their gameplay. What PP should've done is just given Skarath a rule saying he can't be thrown, none of this bullshit.

>>50971338
Actually just making throws not laser precise like the previous editions should've done the trick. As I've said >>50970994

PP made problems where none needed to exist.
Charge rules were rewritten for some reason making the gang/flank/failed charge debacle.
Internal balance in Hordes is just fucking all over the place because they decided to change things that worked ok before.

>>50971338
I like how you bring up Vanilla WOW, its a good comparison.

Ie: a small minority crying about new changes and yearning for the old things they remember through rosetinted glasses, forgetting about all the crap of past editions.

>>50970656
That isn't good game design. There needs to be a top tier but one faction dominating half of the game sucked and "list chicken" doesn't make it better.

>>50970994
I play Cygnar, Circle, and Minions and I'm happy with the changes to all 3 of those factions. What problems are you talking about? Making jacks worth taking? Yeah what an awful change. I'll agree on the bad PR though they should've thought about their release method more before they pushed mk3 out the door.

>>50971147
I'm sad that is gone too. PP has a bad habit of chopping off things that don't work entirely instead of fixing them and I hope they stop. Fuck pushes and wrecks though. Those sucked.

>>50971198
I agree. Taking the fluff blurbs off the cards was the worst change in mk3. They should have a lore page in war room to make up for it. Having to buy books just to know the story of your dudes is a really bad business model. I don't think the power creep was laughable because no one is even close to mk2 Cryx and Legion. I just wish that every faction had gotten the amount of care Cygnar got.

>>50971422
>I don't think the power creep was laughable because no one is even close to mk2 Cryx and Legion
Honestly Cygnar, Ret, and Khador push it at times. Storm Lances, Dawnguards, IF Pikemen and MoW Shocktroopers are egregious design mistakes that PP refuses to own up to. Mk2 Cryx's popularity was partly due to the illusion that they were ridiculous as opposed to them actually being ridiculous. It's like Miracles, a top Legacy deck in Magic. It's probably the best deck by a hair, but this means everyone who doesn't understand the game jumps on its bandwagon.

>>50971422
>Circle
How about completely shit internal and external balance that has made wurmwood and Una 2?
How about the fact that you still can only take warpwolves in non-una 2 lists?

Somebody red pill me on the Farrow. My playgroup plays exclusively Warmachine armies for whatever reason so I'm going to branch out and bring something from Hordes. Frankenstein pig men look pretty badass and I was planning on using Lord Carver as my warlock

>>50971460

Dawnguard are STILL not as good as Mk3 satyxis, let alone Mk2 satyxis.

>>50970752

>and assuming DEF+ARM=20, that IS a heavy statline

no, 30 is. 29 is the most common light total as well. The ONLY faction with a consistent 29 as total combined stats for a heavy is Convergence, where they also have a large number of boxes and are in a faction with a shitload of repair. And cephalyx where the poor defensive stats are actually the point.

'Defensive Stat Total' is also a fucking joke as far as determining whether or not something is 'heavy.' most factions have roughly the same stat totals on heavies and lights, with lights having more defense and heavies having more armor. The boxes are the big difference there.

>small-base single-wound troops with 29 total conditional defensive stats are overpowered

so literally circle orboros is the ONLY faction without OP heavy statline troops, and skorne have more and cheaper options for OP heavy statline troops than any other faction.

okey dokey.

>>50971338
>If they're dumb, just don't do them in game.

This is a multiplayer game. Just cause I don't do them doesnt' mean my opponent isn't going to.

>>50971760
You have a problem with your opponent making bad plays?

>>50971666

All offense, everything in the army except for Carver's Heavies dies if anything even looks at it. Everything punches up, though. Despite what skorne players will tell you, pow 16 heavies in a faction with access to power buffs can wreck colossals.
Brigands will shit all over your meta if nobody takes any sort of anti-infantry tech, but immediately become overcosted and often near-deadweight if they do.
Razorbacks are really, really good now. Boosted pow 14s with long range and reposition are good. Carver even gives them +1 RAT since they're farrow warrior models. You can get them for free in theme.
Commandos can be a useful piece if you are playing in theme. Commandos are never worth taking if you are not playing in theme, just take brigands instead.
A unit of slaughterhousers will kill anything that has a damage point on it and is not incorporeal, but your opponents know this so they won't likely get there.
The least good farrow beasts are razorboars, which are still actually pretty good.
Rorsch and Brine are arguably the best model (even though they're two models) in the game on a points/reward basis. Rorsch is probably a 6 point solo and Brine is probably a 14 point warbeast and you get them both for 15 points. I have no idea why they weren't errata'd.
Don't cast batten and mobility every turn. You will want to cast both on some turns, but on the overwhelming majority you want to use one or the other. It's a bad habit you'll get into if you just assume 'oh my heavies are all 10/21 with spd 7 and pathfinder' and then suddenly need to cast quagmire or have transfers on carver.
Bone Grinders are extremely useful against hordes and still pretty useful against warmachine, as they are cheap magic weapons with grievous wounds.

>>50971666

Right now Minions are surprisingly good.

Word of advice though, don't just play "pigs." You can use Pigs and Gators together and some of the Gator stuff, even if it's just solors and some casters, do real good things with the pig units. Just realize you have way more options than you realize.

Eventually there will be a Theme list for just using Pigs by themselves. I don't know if it will end up being worth loosing the flexibility but for now, there aren't any real benefits to it.

That said, Farrow Brigands went way up in stock this year and a lot of Minions became way more competitive post MK3 update. Also, the models are badass.

>>50971768
I have a problem with players taking advantage of stupid shit that shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.

>>50968909
>>50968671
These problems are all easily rectified by not playing Skorne.

>>50971421
I started playing wow in Cata and must admit after trying retail and privare servers that vanilla-wotlk are better than cata-legion. With the exception of WoD which were really fun but the community was shit at that point in time and that is why people didnt like it.

>>50971847

You can use the gator infantry with the pigs, but you'd be surprised how little you'd actually want to. Pretty much just Posse with Helga/Midas or Bokur and Shamblers if you're taking a bunch of bone grinders.

>>50971872
Cheesy, niche strats that dont break the game but can turn the tide in your favour in a very specific situation if you are smart enough to see them in the rules make the gameplay WAY more entertaining. Less mundane when you can always anticipate something hilarious to happen (like slam assasination comebacks).

>>50971872
Where do you draw the line on what is or isn't "stupid shit"? Is having 0.01mm of wiggle room through a charge lane stupid? Is knowing the best order of activations stupid?

>>50971979
Stupid shit is shit that doesn't make sense when you actually think about it.

Why would people charge, throw, slam, or arm lock their allies?

That type of shit.

>>50972010
>Why would people charge, throw, slam, or arm lock their allies?
EXACTLY

IF IT'S A STUPID THING TO DO, WHY WOULD YOU NEED A RULE PREVENTING PEOPLE FROM DOING IT

YOU CAN STILL TARGET YOUR OWN MODELS WITH MELEE ATTACKS

WHY AREN'T YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT TOO

>>50960047
Wait what? Early MKII had little answers for it, then PP ramped up the anti infantry hate-machine and forgot to turn it off.

>>50970507

It's got less players in my store than Guild Ball.

And that's saying something.

If I drive an hour though I can get a huge community of Warmachine players, but I simply don't like their attitudes or how they approach the game. Great if you want to learn the pro scene though.


Just don't roll up during the days a predicted erratta drops or you will get an earful of salt.

>>50972056
I'm not saying it's stupid from a "this is a dumb idea to do as a player" perspective. I'm saying it's stupid from an in-universe perspective. Why would a guy charge his own ally? Yet you saw plenty of people charging their own models for extra movement.

>YOU CAN STILL TARGET YOUR OWN MODELS WITH MELEE ATTACKS
>WHY AREN'T YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT TOO

That is also dumb and should be removed as well.

>>50972290
Charging with a caster to cast and get +3 movement IS bullshit. But in a universe where Orsus Zoktavir or troll whelps exist I can see people being used as living canonballs by angry robots. I can also see a beast supporting another not to fall down.

>>50972290
The only justification I can find for killing your own models is finding the guy that is contaminating the rest of the unit.

>>50972290
At some point the tabletop rules need to deviate from flavour for the reason of gameplay.

>>50972414
Yes, but these are not those points.

>>50972388
>The only justification I can find for killing your own models is finding the guy that is contaminating the rest of the unit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army)

I don't know about other factions, but the Skorne have practical uses for souls in combat, and if you just happen to need a soul more than a Beast Handler, why not?

>>50972430
>Yes, but these are not those points.
Neither is "That is also dumb and should be removed as well.".

>>50972442
And off the top of my head there's a unit in Trolls that works best when it's on fire, and a beast that can set them on fire. Without friendly fire, the beast and the unit would become useless.

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>>50972290
>>50972356
Removing the ability to perform power attacks or attack your own models is stupid. Not only is it mechanically limiting, but it destroys the fluff, flavor, and feel of the game It was absolutely an intended mechanic from the get-go despite any of the bullshit PP or forum-ites or people here will say.

Look at models like the Blackhide Wrastler from MK2. It's a masked luchadore with abilities to knock itself down and is obviously intended to be used to throw other models down the table and stand them up with its animus. Look at Borka1, he runs a spell called Mosh Pit and the character is a drunker brawler he brings his band of hooligans around to enjoy a good scrap. His feat makes power attacks and collateral damage more threatening and Trollbloods have ALWAYS relied on jank like this to keep up with other factions. There are even the new (in comparison) Fire Eaters who only function when their controlling player takes an activation to set them on fire.

All that changed is PP fucked up again by not playtesting their rules. They took something from MK2 that was fine, power attacks, and changed it for no discernible reason in MK3 so your throws could be laser beam precise. THAT was stupid and unnecessary and was only compounded by allowing players to premeasure; it's no wonder something broken slipped through the cracks with poor playtesting they do and the rush job this edition was.

>>50972607
The fact that they took their own shitty playtesting and decided to fix the abuses of their system by removing it entirely instead of just fixing their shit speaks volumes, to me.

It reminds me of when they slowly needed to add more and more blanket immunities to Colossals and Gargantuans because they didn't have the balls to make the models worth it on their own, and instead made them good by denying half the rules in the game and nerfing Arm Locks into being mostly pointless. Entire light jacks were built around throws and arm-locks against more valuable units, and they went from overly specific to just pointless.

>>50970669
>It would probably help if Skorne had some kind of spd 7 soldiers with anatomical precision or troops with AoEs that cause corrosion or something
Yes that would indeed be nice. Shame it isn't the case.

>>50972814
I mean, technically we have troops with AoEs that cause corrosion, it's just that they're only AoEs when they actually directly hit, which negates the entire reason you want to be slinging corrosive AoEs.

They either need to repeal the no power attacks on friendlies and just fix laser throws or remove attacking friendlies altogether. If tossing your own model to extend threat or knockdown and enemy is "too cheesy" then shooting a friendly model in the back that ran up to produce AOEs and arcs is too. Berserk-like effects obviously would override this, but no voluntary targeting.

>>50973032
I'd be fine with that. IDK.

I guess it's just factions that depended on jank that are the most butthurt about it.

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>>50973032
>Remove attacking friendlies
And guess which faction gets caught in the crossfire of Minions getting nerfed.

>>50973162
Certain rules would override the restriction obviously. I personally would prefer the first option of just fixing throws anyway since I've often attacked my own models to open lanes and cause KD. Just saying the arbitrary"no power attacking friendlies" is a poor errata and counter to the attack rules in the rest of the game.

>>50973162
Man why can't they make his tokens be removed after a round? That way he could get 5 tokens, pass turn, and if your opponent touches him once, they'd reset the tokens on him, letting you keep it going with just 1 Handler in your turn rather than needing to whip him 5 fucking times every turn to get any use out of the ability. Stupid shit like this is why he's the 2nd worst caster in Skorne.

>>50971912

It's really more the casters/solos.

Gator caster really make Pig Infantry pretty awesome. Plus Gator beasts are generally better.

>>50959025

It's at times like that when I muse how mk2 Praetorian Swordsmen would go through dawnguard like a buzzsaw, trading up all the way.

If mark3 Skorne was good for anything, it made me really like mk2 Skorne.

>>50973277
I think it's fine as is. That's not an ability that needs to stay up constantly. You whip him and then send him in to get work done and hopefully survive any reprisal. I can't see it needing to be used multiple turns in a row. This game ends on T3/4 the vast majority of the time anyway and people touching, but not killing your caster is even less frequent.

>>50972290

No, that is fucking stupid.

In game, attacking your own models is really fucking important for a lot of different reasons and removing it would be absolutely terrible for the game itself. Personally I hope they bring back power attacking your own guys just because it legitimately adds a level of tactical depth that is very interesting to the game without making it game breaking (as long as they actually fix throws) but not being able to kill your own models would be a huge hindrance tactically. You are basically asking the game to be objectively worse.

Fluff doesn't actually matter considering Warmachine is based around the concept of "game mechanics first."

>>50972607
>whining about premeasuring

Dude, come on. Everyone premeasured way before the rule existed, they just dressed it up as measuring their control range or command bubble. All the rules did was to make it so you don't have to lie every match.

>>50973414

The only gator casters that do anything at all for pig infantry are maelok and calaban, and midas basically does the same things they do + more.

Minion infantry are actually just bad. Speed 5 plus victim stats means that their offensive punch is all they have, so if there is anything on the table that can kill them half-efficiently they just get removed from the table without really affecting the match.

>>50973444
The problem is that it takes 5 seperate models in order to get his effect - It's not 5 points of damage, it's 5 separate damage sources. So unless you're taking a 7-point unit EXCLUSIVELY for hitting him, he's never going to get his ability to work as intended or at full capacity.

At least he's got some pretty goodmovement shenanigans, but he's probably the fastest thing in the entire army now so he basically always needs to use Cyclone to get back into his lines or to jank forward, kill some infantry to get those 5+ hit points back, and then run back as soon as possible... And he can't charge his own units, so you have to play it very, very close.

that being said I do like him and his kit, it just... doesn't work together nicely, and requires too much of his army doing nothing for a round.

>>50973522
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Warmahordes is the only popular miniatures game that even allows you to intentionally attack your own guys.

Infinity, Warhammer, Guild Ball, Xwing and I'm pretty sure Malifaux don't let you damage your own guys

>>50973564

Rask gives them a feat that helps keep the Pigs alive plus everything else that Rask does (Fury, Shot types, Gator beasts).

Brigands are amazing with Barnabus for pop and drop purposes. Also better for triggering Warpath than anything else really.

Calaban is genuinely scary with them just because of Parasite. Midas just can't do it as well as Calaban by a long shot. He doesn't have the spell threat extension Calaban has and using Battle Lust on pigs is not great (Hell, gatorman Possie might actually be better for Midas if you really wanted to play him).

Honestly, I would say that Pig infantry is better with Gator warlocks and vice versa a lot of the time. It seems like Pigs have more defense/melee buffs that could help Gators/Frogs survive and Gators have more ranged buffs to help Brigands/Frogs/Razorback Crews.

Also, again, I think Gator beasts are just generally better overall. Since the Wrastler got Rage, they seem to have everything they could need where as Pig beasts just aren't with there unless you are spamming with Arkadius.

Plus, I think the Mist Speaker/ Wrong Eye and Snapjaw are probably pretty useful, if not essential in Wrong Eyes case.

I'm thinking of using Reznik for a journeyman league. Thoughts on jacks? Revenger always seems like a good choice, and I'm thinking the Crusader with the potential movement bonuses Reznik can get off.

>>50973717

All of those games would probably be better if you could too.

In particular, Infinity would be much more tactically interesting if you could actually target your own guys directly with shit like Smoke grenades.

Plus all of the unit movement interactions that are way better if you can actually kill something that's in your way. The tactical flexibility of being able to do something with a unit then remove it so something else can activate is super important. To the point that, without it, a lot of this game would just be worse to play and less enjoyable overall.

I actually think more games would benefit from adding that mechanic. Being able to set up shots by sacrificing units or actually use support then remove it to make way for something that has to stand where it was is really good game design because it requires you to give up something for something else to work properly. Otherwise, you would have a lot more interactions that would be way harder to pull off and way more frustration of being unable to come back from poor placement on your own part which, again, allows you so sacrifice something to make up for a mistake you made (hence making things more flexible for everyone).

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>>50973685
Yeah, he has problems for sure, but I think they go deeper than that ability. A lot of locks that want to wading themselves don't function well, unless you're the butcher.

The "idea" I imagine, is you use something cheap like paingivers to give him tokens but obviously then they aren't buffing your beasts. Were it me, I'd redo the ability from the ground up and have some passive buff that activates for a round after being damaged (friendly or enemy) or allow his tokens to stay permanently but instead of acting as an incremental stat buff allow them to be spent as a resource (like boosting, buying attacks, or perhaps spend after getting hit to mitigate damage or activate a defensive buff).

We'll see what PP does with Skorne errata. Really wish they would have looked at Borka2 and maybe Madrak1 as well when they dropped the last errata.

I think Trolls/Skorne suffer some of the same development problems. It seems like none of the staff can agree on a direction for the factions and no one really plays them. They just seem to want to make more in depth and adventurous mechanics for Skorne models so when they fail you end up with these weird grab bags. Trolls, on the otherhand, are left feeling really bland or "just missing something" a lot of the time.

Despite all this lately I find myself thinking about MK3 and wanting to play somewhat often. Unfortunately, the only regular playerbase left around my shop are cheaters, misery gamers, neckbeards, and other assorted shitters you're better off just not playing with 9 times out of 10.

>>50973717
X wing has changed that a little with tractor beams with the latest expansion.

Malifaux lets you attack your own guys. it's actually a very important tool for things that use blasts and pulses. Hell, Gremlins work primarily by suicidal action economy.

>>50973843

Part of me really likes having a Dervish with Reznik1.

Considering the assassination potential of having a Dervish that can move like 13" and side step twice with Ignite on him is pretty scary. It's a bit corner case but he is only 7 points and he can hang back most of the game and hits a P+S 17 with Ignite, making him fine as a backup dmg dealer if you really gotta put a heavy down.

>>50973739

Rask's feat is not even close to enough to deliver pig melee infantry. Gator Beasts aren't a benefit to pig infantry, who gain nothing from any of their presence. Fury is only for melee troops, and pig melee troops cap out at 6 men so they aren't good targets.

Pop and Drop is the only benefit Barnabas gets from Brigands. He can death march them, but so can Midas and Midas also gets calamity.

Parasite is not as good as calamity unless you are already on your prey target, though it's nice to be able to cycle it around on his feat turn if you're in a meta where medium infantry is actually used enough for parasite+brigands to be a good counter to them.

Pig Beasts are fucking amazing. Pigs are good ENTIRELY on the strength of their beasts since minion faction balance is pretty terrible and the infantry just are generally not good. They're actually better than gator beasts, the war hog and road hog both have cases for being the strongest non-character heavies in hordes. The only thing pig beasts don't have that gator beasts do is 2" reach.

Unless your local meta can't kill infantry at all, in which case most of the stuff about infantry doesn't apply and minion infantry actually becomes decent since it's all about punching up. You see a lot of people who don't play minions complaining about brigands being the best infantry in hordes, but you'll never see them using brigands even though they work for everyone in hordes. There's a reason for that.

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>>50973860
I'm not really sure what benefit you'd get from targeting your own models directly in Infinity. Template weapons, like smoke grenades, you can simply place the point of impact anywhere in your range band and if you lack LoF to that point you have to use a full order to speculative fire.

Ballistic weapons that result in impact templates, like missile launchers and such, you cannot target your own models, but I can't think of a good reason you'd ever want to in Infinity short of trying to splash damage on hard to reach/hit enemy models. Even so, due to ARO mechanic it would be exceedingly rare you would be able to maneuver a friendly into the right position to act as a "beacon" model to splash AoEs onto the enemy.

>>50970507
I agree. Warmachine is finally a serious matchup for Hordes outside of Cryx (all of you Hordes players know, Fury was ALWAYS better than Focus).

No, pre-measuring didn't dumb the game down. Everyone pre-measured anyway with that command range bullshit.

No, charging friendlies didn't ruin the game. It prevents bullshit like 16+" threat ranges from Butcher3 or Stryker2.

No, throwing your own models didn't dumb the game down, it finally closes a backdoor that people were abusing in order to avoid a certain stat: DEF.
Throwing and slamming your own jacks into a model with high DEF completely circumvents the viability of DEF-skewing in the first place. You actually have to figure out a way on how to beat high DEF now.

Yes, removing Wreck markers took away something, but asking a player to spend an additional 20 bucks for each marker to go along with all of the jacks (especially after making jack-spam viable) would've been the most GW thing since the colossals release. Markers also always felt asymmetric/inconsistent, because Hordes didn't have them and neither did Battle Engines.


Aside from some things like over nerfing certain things, this game is so much more fun than before.

Khador is finally a usable faction.
People are actually fielding Pigs.
For fucks sake, the game is called Warmachine and it's FINALLY possible to actually use your WARMACHINES.


If we can hammer out some more bullshit (bunnies/griffons wtf) and fix Skorne, this will be the best Warmachine has ever been.

All you whining faggots should post these """critiques""" on the PP forums so the devs can actually see them.

But you wont, because you dont want them seriously addressed; you know you are wrong and wont attribute a name other than Anonymous to said complaints.

Are there any pictures of what some other key Warmachine characters look like other then the warcasters?

>>50974892
No, it because you get banned for disagreeing.

t. Multiple infractions and bans for doing so.

>>50974621
Seriously these throw whiners.

Throwfags, if you could powerattack your own models again, and got throw deviation, would you object to models getting their DEF to dodge?

If not, admit its only to circumvent a stat because you lack answers.

>>50974939
What do you mean? All the playable characters in the game have artwork.

>>50975262
important NPC's like Leto and the Draganfather

>>50975248
Circumventing stats is the answer.

Also getting def to dodge an indirect attack is bad because it's wildly inconsistent with other things like AOES or electroleaps.

Def to dodge is only a thing for skirmish games with heavy mutual involvement from both sides at all point of gameplay like Infinity or Malifaux.

Half the reason why 40k is a fucking mess is because it's because they can't keep rule resolution consistent between model types or phases.

>>50975203
No, you get banned for being an asshole. If you post like you do here out in the world, it would be autistic to think you wouldn't.

t. Destroyer of Worlds, posting for 10 years

>>50975463
>dodging a flying body being thrown is the same as dodging electricity

I mean i know realism arguments are dumb, but come the fuck on. Trying to dodge a flying snake being chucked is not the same as thinking you should be allowed to dodge an explosion

>>50975482

Their standards on what is argument and what is assholishness have taken a turn for the odd, anon.

>>50975640
If you post your criticisms constructively, you tend to not have a problem with mods or infractions.

If you post "wow changing power attacks was stupid what the hell is PP thinking do they even test things, what is pagani doing?"... well, what do you expect?

Hell, I posted my concerns over the errata, and Pastrami himself replied to me. :^)

>>50975482
>>50975640

Lots of people have simply stopped posting after getting warnings for their usual behavior.

You can spot out bans from users since their avatars disappear and the long breaks between posts.

The forums also has several posters who are really bad players and will argue until the end of time that bad changes are relatively fine and it destroys discussion because they simply don't get it.

>>50974621
>I agree. Warmachine is finally a serious matchup for Hordes outside of Cryx (all of you Hordes players know, Fury was ALWAYS better than Focus).

That's the kind of rigid analysis shit that broke Skorne in the update. Focus and Fury relative quality was definitely fluid with battlegroup size- pre-powerup it may have gotten the same end result to a certain standard, but there was serious shit churning beneath the results. Alter some of the workings while remaining blithely confident "oh, fury is better and is always better", and marvel at the trainwreck that results.

>>50975676
But the problem IS that a lot of the things PP are doing ARE stupid as hell.

>>50975676
PP aren't listening to any form of criticism at this point. Doesn't matter if you're being constructive or calling them faggots, they don't give a shit. Lefties tend to ignore ideas outside their bubble.

>>50975762
Show, don't tell.

Demonstrate why you think X change is stupid. Posting "PP is stupid" doesn't help them and just creates a bunch of bullshit for other people to sift through.

>>50975740
>Lots of people have simply stopped posting after getting warnings for their usual behavior.
Yeah? I'd like to see some examples of "usual behavior". :^)

>The forums also has several posters who are really bad players and will argue until the end of time that bad changes are relatively fine and it destroys discussion because they simply don't get it.
So the game should be completely balanced around competitive gameplay only? The forums should only have input from people with Top 8 tournament placements? You have to have 1000 hours with and own every model in a faction in order to comment on it?

I'd bet my entire collection you wouldn't even meet your own criteria, let alone have the "authority" to comment on the errata.

>>50975804
>Demonstrate why you think X change is stupid
To people who suck shit at playing their own game? What's the point of that? Getting crushed by Zaadesh2 + 26 Reptile Hounds is a bad sign for so many reasons.

>>50971899
WotLK was probably the best concerning gameplay and content. All speccs on all classes were finally viable and some had really cool stuff. However, it also had quite a few quality of life improvements, especially for classic (mounts at 20 were amazing, because jesus, the zones are huge and not having to waste so much time traversing them was great. Additionally most classes without healing didn't have to rely on first aid and food so much anymore). However, most flavour abilities were already removed (I think WotLK removed swirly ball and racial cleric spells)

From what I've gathered playing mk3, it feels like Warmachine is getting there. The basic rules definitely feel really good. Sure, the balance for individual models is still lacking, but it's probably going to improve, as the errata already have indicated (plus the big skorne changes are coming and might show that they actually can improve things without making them OP)

>>50975784
>PP aren't listening to any form of criticism at this point.
They have listened. What you mean to say is "PP didn't immediately issue an errata to the errata to address my concerns (which are right)". They want to see how these changes affect things over a period of time and games, before making any more changes.

>Lefties tend to ignore ideas outside their bubble.
That's not an argument. :^)

>>50975844
>So the game should be completely balanced around competitive gameplay only?
Not even that guy but it's pretty fucking obvious that the game should be balanced around competitive gameplay. Do you seriously think it's possible to balance shitlist v shitlist? Balance is irrelevant at lower levels, but this doesn't mean low level games are going to be one sided.

>>50975887
>What you mean to say is "PP didn't immediately issue an errata to the errata to address my concerns (which are right)". They want to see how these changes affect things over a period of time and games, before making any more changes.
The issue is that there are crippling and blatant issues plaguing at every factions some more than others. Internal balance issues being the most egregious ones.

Or it's changes that absolutely no one asked for.
Yes, PP Nighttroll becoming mat 6 is what will save the beast. Yes, not having a high enough mat was what was killing the animusless, gunless, defenseless, boosting for crit anyway beast into obscurity.

>>50975902
>Not even that guy but it's pretty fucking obvious that the game should be balanced around competitive gameplay.
You should honestly look up some of the WOTC articles about balancing Magic The Gathering. For every one card they introduce for a competitive level, they introduce 3-4 others for casual players, casual deckbuilding, or casual formats. You can't sustain a traditional game with a "competitive-only" philosophy.

>Balance is irrelevant at lower levels
You may think so, but given 90% of sales are for "lower levels", it's a lot less irrelevant than you think.

>>50975963
>Or it's changes that absolutely no one asked for.
So all changes should be only what people ask for? Thank god you're not on a game's development team.

>>50975863
If you feel that the game is beyond saving, to the point that you won't bother with explaining why you hold such a position... Why open your fat mouth and stick your opinion up your ass.

>>50975749
Not that I think they nailed it perfectly, but in mk2, Fury had absolutely no risk involved. You could whatever how many beasts you wanted and not care, because threshold didn't matter and Fury management was way too powerful.

Meanwhile, the Warmachine players had trouble allocating a single focus to their only battlegroup jack, because it left them unable to cast spells and not die due to some bullshit.

>>50975971
You're citing Magic as an example of a competitively balanced game? Top fucking kek right there lad. Right now Standard is being crushed by a tiny subset of decks after coming off 2 years of being crushed by a single deck, and Modern's metagame can best be described as "ships passing in the night".

I've read more than my fair share of Wizards articles about their own game, and they're always full of shit.

>You can't sustain a traditional game with a "competitive-only" philosophy
You gotta realise that people will make their own fun regardless of what the game designer does. Just look at EDH.

>>50976030
I wasn't the guy you were originally citing.

>>50975863
The development team posted a log of why they made certain changes. For 20+ pages on the forums, people have been asking questions regarding the errata, and various people (including Will "26 Reptile Hounds" Pastrami) have answered a lot of the bases not covered by that document.

They do listen, but you, like several other people here and on the forums, equate listening with agreement, and think that a company only "listens" when they change things [back to] how you want them to be.

>>50976019
>strawman (you) for (you)

>>50975784

>Lefties tend to ignore ideas outside their bubble.

Well have some ideas that are worth a shit.

>>50976154
And what ideas are worth a shit? Ones that you already agree with?

>>50976101
>You're citing Magic as an example of a competitively balanced game?
It's very popular, has a wide player base, extensive R&D and testing, and generally does very well (if it is not one of the best examples). Of course, you can pick out anecdotes and deflect with "lol u think magic r competetiv? KEK" but it's a genuine good example of demonstrating how a company both sells products and caters to a competitive demographic that it itself didn't really create, but tries to foster.

>and Modern's metagame can best be described as "ships passing in the night"
Best described as? You pretty much don't understand that idiom. Try again.

>a bunch of other irrelevant opinion and feeling statements
k

>You gotta realise that people will make their own fun regardless of what the game designer does. Just look at EDH.
Believe it or not, most of the people at my game shop manage to make their own fun with Warmahordes! Yeah, we had that one guy who brought in Kardogs, and the other guy who brought in Bunnies. I even proxied up Una's Flying Circus. Know how we balanced that?

Nobody played against it. So we bust out our other lists, be them fun jank or thematic and good-looking.

>>50976129
>strawman (you) in response to your "muh feelings im right pp is wrong"
have an additional (you) before they're taken away again

>>50976195
>Believe it or not, most of the people at my game shop manage to make their own fun with Warmahordes!
Right, so you agree with me that a designer may as well balance the game around competitive play because players will make their own fun regardless. I'm glad to hear it.

>>50976195
lol, competitive magic

Modern is uncreative turn 3 wasteland and standard is the same midrange shitfest over and over again. Blue and Red might as well just be removed from the game at this point.

>>50976225
Nice try extrapolating that from my response. Because ignoring a competitive-only list that isn't fun to play against in a local playgroup means "oh, lets just ignore all the rules we don't like and never balance anything for 90% of the customer base." :^)

>>50976286
>Modern is uncreative turn 3 wasteland
Wasteland is not legal in Modern. Nice attempt at thinking you know what you're talking about. And it's Turn 4. :^)

>>50976307
You ignored the competitive lists and played something you thought was fun. Why do you think that the game needs to be consciously balanced around low levels of play to ensure that low level play games are "balanced"? And this is ignoring how it's straight up impossible to truly balance models for people who don't use them at maximum effectiveness.

>>50976352
>Why do you think that the game needs to be consciously balanced around low levels of play to ensure that low level play games are "balanced"?
You should take a look at some of the World of Warcraft developer blogs. They explain why they don't simply balance the game around the top 1% of raiding, the top 1% of PVP, etc.

It's probably because the game doesn't run on 1% of the playerbase playing in strict conditions.

>>50976413
>It's probably because the game doesn't run on 1% of the playerbase playing in strict conditions
It did back when the game had 11 million subscribers.

>>50976323
>Wasteland
>literally be this autistic

>>50976497
I play modern. It isnt a wasteland, it is just stagnant and unchanging, like any other eternal format. Still the most popular night outside of draft.

>>50976571
Modern sucks. It's legacy, limited or commander.

And limited highly depends on what set is out at the moment. Kaladesh is okay, but something like Battle for Zendikar is straight up unplayable garbage.

>>50976101
Sorry about that. I haven't found a good mobile browser since Clover was forced to close.

>>50971338
This is not a game about grinding scripted dungeons.

The amount of stuff you have to play around with that whole "power attack my own model" thing is not suited for steamroller.

>>50978182
I honestly don't care if people want to power attack their own models.

All they have to do is treat it like a ranged attack (because it is), and let the model hit by a thrown model have their DEF rolled against.

>>50978182

>How dare you force me to think about what I am doing in a game when all I want to do is set up my gunline and shoot the other player off the table!

>>50978673

Well, logistically that is how it worked anyway, the problem was that they took away models scattering when you threw something at an area. Hence it made it 100% accurate to throw something just barely out of range of something and still knock it down.

If, instead, they just added scattering back it, all the problems would have been fixed instantly.

>>50976307
>>50975887
>>50975844


This guy isn't interested in the actual discussion. he is just being contrarian and stand offish. Ignore him. Just like the idiots on the main forums he drag the discussion far off topic and just say the opposite of what you are because he thinks he is right and you are wrong.

>>50978963

>say the opposite of what you are because he thinks he is right and you are wrong.

Is that not how opinions work? Are you not also saying the opposite of what he is saying because you think you are right and he is wrong?

>>50979086
No I'm not at all.

>>50976218
Well, your entire premise is wrong which you've caused by strawmanning.

Basically read what was written

>>50979253

So you're saying you don't think you're right and he is wrong?

>>50979723

I'm not even arguing who is right or who is wrong.

>>50951000
I have fun playing it.

>>50973930
See, I was thinking a Dervish too, but I keep seeing the Redeemer being brought up. POW 12 isn't going to kill things fast even with three dice, is it?
And if not a heavy, what would you suggest for 0 point?

>>50979887
But you are. You are doing exactly what you are accusing him of doing
Now you are the one dragging it off topic and not discussing the issues

>>50981074
Holy necropost, batman
Just leave them alone, why are you continuing to argue with each other? Is it THAT important that some guy on the internet said something that upset you?

>>50964466
Julius, not Julian.

>>50968983
No Quarter used to run a shitload of those kinds of puzzles.

>>50975437
Leto has had a ton of art in the RPG books and No Quarter. Toruk is illustrated in the first Monsternomicon.

Gonna play loads of Warmachine today, starting like an hour and a half! Wish me good HOKSUNE, friends!

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>>50975437
There is this amazing artwork of from Vengeace, depicting Empress Ayn Vanar meeting King Leto.

>>50983109
I get that that's the Butcher on the right, but who's the random chucklefuck on the left?

>>50983139
Just a random Silver Line Stormguard chucklefuck.

>>50983139
Don't remember it being mentioned in the story accommodating this piece, so probably just a Stormguard jobber.

>>50983199
>Okay, you can bring somebody along with you to guard the tent while we discuss matters of importance between our two kingd-
>Actually, we're an Empire.
>Okay, matters of importance between Cygnar and Kha-
>Just one person? Who did you bring?
>A man whose loyalty is beyond question, a veteran of numerous conflicts, an exemplary member of the Stormguard nam-
>LOL I CHOOSE ORSUS ZOKTAVIR
>The, uh, the Butcher?
>ORSUS GO STAND BY THAT GUY
>Please, we have important matters to discu-
>FUCK ME YOUR GUY IS TINY LOOK AT HIM
>Just get in the tent already.

>>50983109
Seriously how the fuck is someone that big and heavy MAT9 when the relatively unburdened Makeda, whom Vinter considered an equal in combat, is MAT7? Fuck this gay earth.

>>50983333
check em

Because Orsus has the powers of RAEG and ANGRE

>>50983511
But he's literally just being a little bitch over some woman that didn't want him.

>>50983333
He's basically wearing a power armor.

>>50983333
Because Skorne are unwashed foreign peasants whose job is to die, haven't you been paying attention to the PP updates? They said so much as that their culture of elite warriors is being ignored in favor of LOL ALL MY GUYS DIED BUT NOW I HAVE SOULS SO IT'S KAY

Anybody got any spoilers for the new Protectorate stuff? The book's out next week

>>50984366
Also, didn't someone say that theme forces for every faction would be out along with the big errata?

>>50984391
No, you imagined that. Theme forces were supposed to come out "in December" but they're getting staggered so what that meant was "We'll release one or two month starting in December".

>>50975248
I would have preferred "A model thrown or slammed during its controller's turn before its activation must forfeit its activation that turn." to what happened.

But I switched from the biggest throw bullshit casters (Amon and HR) to Krehorse before the errata, and am enjoying Force Hammering my own cavalry to knock shit down.

>>50985221
That ignores the other half of the throw problem, which was that with a minimal amount of setup anything with open fists effectively had an auto-hitting knockdown gun.

>>50976571
>outside of draft.

Aaand there's your problem. MtG outside of Limited is cancer.

>>50953320
Khador has some op gimmicks, but most of the faction is actually trash outside a fee legitimately good models.

>>50978673
>>50978704

That wasn't why it got changed.

It got changed because it let High Reclaimer spray the other guy's board edge on the top of 1, gave Amon an 18" non-linear assassination threat range, and made the Super Snake possible. Making DEF somewhat better was secondary.

>>50985644
>X has some op gimmicks, but most of the faction is actually trash

Welcome to Warmahordes. Pretty much every faction has a handful of extremely strong models and a LOT of models that range from kinda bad, over underperforming or strictly worse at the same thing than in-faction alternatives to just plain trash.

Even notable meta boogeymen Khador and Cygnar have that problem. Khador has a handful of gimmicks and mostly gets by on their stable of decent casters and Winterguard Rocketeers. Cygnar has exactly two tournament-level competitive units.

It's just a general problem that spans the entire game, because for some fucking reason PP can't into in-faction balance.

http://conflictchamber.com/#bc1bdjdbd9dBd5d9dudz

Convergence Army - 73 / 75 points

(Lucant 1) Father Lucant, Divinity Architect [+28]
- Prime Axiom [38]
- Inverter [15]
- Corollary [6]
- Galvanizer [5]
- Inverter [15]
Reciprocators (max) [18]
Optifex Directive [4]

thoughts? my other option is dropping the Galvanizer and one of the inverters for a TEP, but I feel like shaking it up a little bit tonight.

>>50985263

See >>50985654

Maybe that was a "problem", but it's not why throws got fixed.

Realistically, that "minimal amount of setup" meant that you spent the activation of a beast/jack, possibly extra focus/fury on top of the cost of a power attack to make sure it hits, *and* sacrificing a model that's at least the same size as what you're trying to knock down, *and* it's a fairly short-ranged attack since it's half-STR (unless you're using a strong heavy or a colossal, and, well, if you use a 36 point model's activation to get an 8" knockdown gun, more power to you).

So yeah, it was good, but it's never been game-breaking because it's short ranged enough that it doesn't really show up early game, and it's resource-intensive enough that it's not that easy to make work late-game. In years of playing Mk2 and Mk3, outside of the Mk3 bullshit that got nerfed (HR, Amon, Super Snake) I've only seen it used as a late-game solution to high-DEF casters.

Stryker1 still has a 5" aoe knockdown spell that doesn't require a direct hit on an enemy model and he's not exactly tearing up the meta.

So, I'm not particularly upset that it's gone, but it wasn't removed because "OMG it makes DEF worthless".

>>50983333
You see the size of that fucking axe? You try swinging that thing at someone and NOT hitting them.

>>50985556
I always thought that limited maybe isnt bad, but outside of cubes definitely isnt for me. Too random and the costs rack up quickly if you want to play at least once a week. In modern since the twin ban there are about twenty decks you can take to a tournament and expect to do well, plus a range of jank you can take to fnm. Compare this to about five decks that dont insta loose in ygo or pokemon.

Ok folks, it's 9 days until the Protectorate book drops. Let's see some scans.

>>50986636
And how many Limited events can you do for the cost of one of those competitive decks?

Competitive MtG isn't cheap in any respect.

>>50986751
About 50.

>>50986987
So.... I can do a Limited event once a week for a year, or assemble a Constructed deck that will be obsolete after that year anyway.

Gotcha.

>>50987024
There are like thirty decks that were reasonably playable for the past 6 years so that isnt an issue. Regardless, the argument was that modern is varied, not cheap. Hillariously enough a deck is worth around as much as two 75pts lists, which is bullshit.

Okay, so, Incindiarii and Marketh are still absolute horseshit.

>>50987130
Yeah, my point was mostly that unless you play a *ton* of competitive events, competitive Standard isn't really cheaper than Limited. Kitchen table MtG is as cheap as you want it to be, of course.

And, honestly I find Limited more interesting to play since it's more whoever draws their wombo combo first.

>>50988402
They might get better in the errata.

Might.

>>50988521
>it's more whoever draws their wombo combo first.

That should be "not just" instead of "more".

>>50988567
>They might get better in the errata.
>Might.
Well we already know that Spell Slave isn't getting changed otherwise it would've happened in the first wave of erratas, and the rumoured change for Incindiarii was their gun going from POW12 to 13, which is literally nothing considering it's the continuous fire that does the killing.

So they're both going to stay dogshit unless there's huge point cost changes.

>>50988610
It's always possible that they decided a non-shit Spell Slave was unsuitable for Cryx, so they just give Skorne a similar but un-shitty rule instead.

Maybe not likely but I've got a growing suspicion that PP makes decisions at least partially via tarot card readings and astrology, when they don't pull them directly from Jason Soles' ass. So it wouldn't be out of character at least.

>>50984440
You're wrong

>>50984391
Every faction that doesn't already have a theme force already is going to be getting one in January. They're doing final editing and stuff now

Before you get too excited the theme lists are going to be one of the ones from the Forces book

>>50988720
I think they're going to take the easy way out and just drop Marketh to like 3 or 4 points. Incindiarii will probably come down to 14 or 15 and still be unplayable pieces of shit with victim stats.

>>50988906
Heavy infantry needs to drop in point cost across the board.

Or cavalry needs to get nerfed.

Or both.

>>50989049
Instead of one being just plain better than the other, they need to offer different things. Currently they're both filling the slot of medium-based, 5 to 8-wound unit with above average damage output per model. Nerfing cavalry or buffing infantry isn't going to fix that, it won't change the fact that one gets played while the other rots on the shelves.

They need to make them more distinct from each other, and give both some unique feature. It's less about nerfing and buffing and more about reworking from the ground up.

Obviously they're not going to do that because that might be work, but still.

>>50989217
"Cheap objective holder that still has some hitting power" is a pretty useful differentiation that would be there if medium-based infantry was cheaper.

But as it is, they're not any more survivable than cavalry, not much cheaper, have a much lower threat range *and* lack boosted attack rolls on the charge, so why the hell bother?

I mean, except Warders (who have a niche because of Shield Guard), of course.

>>50989410
>But as it is, they're not any more survivable than cavalry, not much cheaper, have a much lower threat range *and* lack boosted attack rolls on the charge, so why the hell bother?
Honestly I look at Ferox and weep over how much better they are than Arcuarii and Incindiarii. Heavy infantry with a 11/15 statline and 5 boxes with no defensive abilities? They die to a single POW12 gun rolling slightly above average for the love of god.

>>50989554
Yeah, same deal with Protectorate.

11/17 Cinerators or 11/16 (with Sanguine Bond) Bastions vs. 12/17 (with Battle Driven) Vengers. And then the Vengers hit harder (with Battle Driven up, at least), threat 13" and are ridiculously accurate.

>>50990303
Vengers? Fuck off, they've got nothing on Flame Bringers. No one brings cavalry to deal big damage; it's there to clear out infantry and jam. If you wanna crack heavies just bring Crusaders or something.

>>50990401
Light cav, sure. Vengers under Kreoss3 wreck armor just fine getting up to effective POW 19.5 charges.

>>50985654
It gave Morghoul2 an 18" non-linear assassination range too Anon, h-heh...

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>go to stores end of year sale
>x-wing cleaned out
>bunch of warmachine stuff still on the shelf
Guildball didn't even have a single item being sold :^)

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What are some "Must Haves" for Circle?

I have Kaya1, Kaya2, Kromac2, Tanith, and Wurmwood for casters. I have 2 Sentry Stones, 1 Shifting Stones, 2 Skinwalkers with UA, and one of each heavy wolf, and an Argus. These are pretty much the core of what I've used in games for a long time. I had a unit of Druids, but they died.

I'm looking to expand my Circle, but with Mk3 I'm not sure what is decent. Most every tourney list is Una2 with a shitload of birds, or Wurmwood with a shitload of rocks (which I have). Units in general seem to have fallen out of favor.

Are there units I should pick up, or should I just look into a Storm Raptor (for the funsies) Or start on a new faction?

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>>50995442
Also have some Circle Command book art.

I want to lick Tanith's thighs.

>>50995442
That core is pretty solid. Add a Gorax to be able to choose which chassis you want Primal on. Winter Argii are solid now, ironically because they're one of Circle's best counters to Una2. Woldwyrds are good now.

Bloodtrackers are good. Reeves are good with Tanith. Unfortunately, that's about it unit-wise.

If you want a garg, the Woldwrath is *much* better than the Storm Raptor.

>>50995484
I doubt she shaves, should be nice and musky

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Just done painting the entire boat of those idiots. As much as I love red, I'm going to throw up if I have to paint another red model.

>>50997477
Why paint them red then? :^)

I want to like this game but 'play like you've got a pair' doesn't make it easy.

Wait so theres like dead and injured and totally changed characters in this and we can play the old versions like deneghra before they became undead but this massive lore character who had stats in mark 1 vinter isn't playable?
Honestly Vinter seems pretty cool I'd love to play as him.

>>51001101
That's literally not part of the game anymore

>>51001116
Vinter wasn't really playable, he was a character for a specific event and the press ganger would play him basically as a faction iirc. He was a broken-ass character who could fight off an army by himself, and the point was to complete some objective while this invulnerable-ass character was trying to kill you. They did something similar for the previous Pope as well with the Siege of Sul campaign.

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n______n

>>51001355
>Pope
Hierarch Garrick Voyle

>>51002622
Who, statwise, made Vinter look like a schoolgirl.

8 days until the Protectorate book drops, anyone got any pics?

>>50995484
Don't you want to cum inside Tanith's thighs?

>>51001101
What are you, a sissy cuck?

>>51001355

They did it with 'actual everblight, sort of' as well

>>51004696
no, that's fucking gross, why would you cum into a mutilated flesh when you can just cum into the vagina?

>waiting for theme forces
>also to see how fucked up skorne is post skorne-errata
>new insider posted
>fucking grind preview
tfw

>>51006967
I am severely disappointed in the quality of the graphic design in those spoiled pages.

>>51006967

You know, they had me right up until "Discount Dragonspawn", when the SRS BZNSS chip on my spine turned on.

Because between the Immoran underworld scene, Skorne non-warrior castes, and what passes for civilization in the wilds, you could put something like this together. Heck, it probably exists, and some pretty nasty customers of all races put money into it. But Dragonspawn would have to be an exotic beasts thing at best.

>>51007416

Something like this- you want to know what happened to that Titan Gladiator that ended that last game with two health boxes left? The beast handlers said it was loss and they would dispose of it, tranqed it up, juiced it up, passed it on to some worker-caste drovers in exchange for chymicals that fell of a wagon the way to Immoran, and inside a month it's in a deathmatch in a roped-off pasture somewhere north of Fort Falk against a Warpwolf that's been getting just a little too old, a little too slow and a little too crazy, and the cash is being thrown around.

>>51007605
>boxes
>warbeasts
I fucking wish. Spirals are the devil. Gimme my goddamn grid and boxes.

So have we not ripped the Trolls Command Book?

>>51008524
What's there to rip? Nothing that interesting in it.

So I actually massively underestimated the strength of the TyCom with Rasheth. Helping fatso get up the field is great, but it actually makes one hell of an arc node. Your opponent doesn't really want to waste effort killing the banner guy, but they might just have to. I even had a great moment today where the banner guy made a perfect target for Breath of Corruption to extend the smoke wall from my Bellows Crew. He even survived! And of course the MAT8 PS12WM pathfinder Tyrant is always relevant on a -2DEF -4ARM target. Not that I'd complain if he traded Reveille for Stir the Blood and got cheaper.

>>51009239
Wouldn't it have the different list-building bonuses and guidelines? I thought the entire point of the command book was to bring back tier lists

>>51008298
I love how the war room app uses split boxes instead of spirals
Really tells you somethin'

>>51010806
It has 2 theme lists, but they got posted ages ago and total a page's worth of info.

>>51010806
>>51011534
They are also in War Room so there really isn't anything worth a damn there unless you want fluff.

Hey guys, what caster do you run Kayazy Assassin's with?

I recently bought the unit, but I have trouble putting them in any lists, because I think they need Iron Flesh to be good, but the only Iron Flesh casters I own at the moment are Old Witch (who's bad) and Sorscha2 (who's even worse).

>>51016049
Damiano! They are pretty legit with Surefoot. Thanks mk3.

>>51016049
Irusks can run them to good efficiency. Malakov 2 also does ok when he reaches general release

>>50950988
So, i've still got about 200$ worth of Christmas money to spend, and im looking to start a new army. Any ideas? Or, in amother scenario, I have about a 35 point Khador Army. Current collection is:
Lord Kozlov
Juggernaut
Decimator
Mad Dog
Man'o War Shock troopers
Manhunter
Kayazy Eliminators

Any suggestions for an expansion to that?

>>51017637
Black Dragon IFP
Behemoth
Winterguard Rifle Corp with Kovnik Joe
Rager or Kodiak kit

I don't know the MSRP, but that's solid enough for you.

Splash some Greylord Ternion/Koldun Lord

>>51017258
I don't play mercs, but that sounds pretty cool anyway.

>>51017814
Mostly goos suggestions, but I do have a few problems: thing is, is that I straight up refuse to buy PP's Winterguard. They're far too Expensive, and I despise their posing.

I am also curious as to why you'd suggest a Rager or a Kodiak, considering how different they are.

>>50986017

You're right anon.

>>51017926
It's narrowing of choices. You can buy rager to keep yourself alive or Grolar to kill shit and knockdown things easier. I dunno. You are gonna get both in the end anyway

>>51017637
If you want to use that Man-O-War unit, you absolutely need the Officer and the Kovnik.
That way they can move a lot faster across the table and use their guns on the charge turn, giving them some quite needed extra punch.

Behemoth is a mandatory buy for Khador players. Really expensive, both in money and points, but absolutely worth it. Behemoth is brutally focus efficient, because he only needs 1 Focus from your caster on a shooting turn, because using one focus per gun makes the attack and all damage rolls (including splash) boosted.

Widowmakers are an excellent ranged unit. They are butting heads with the Rifle corps, because both have that 14" shooting, but they have different jobs. The Rifles deal a lot of damage between combined range attacks and brutal rockets, but cost a lot. Widowmakers are an 8 point unit that is highly accurate, not easy to hit (DEF 14) and they are able to eliminate tough models and snipe specific colums on warjack. They are perfect range support and work a lot better with Kozlov than Rifle Corps, so I recommend Widowmakers over them.

Add the Widowmaker Marksman. He's the fifth squad member, but hits even more accurate and does better damage. He also makes the Widowmakers better, by letting them advance 2" after a kill if they're close to him.

Lastly, Kozlov is a caster which struggles at keeping all his Upkeep spells managed. Sylys Whyishisnamesoretarded if a merc solo that works with a lot of our casters. He extends range on our spells (useful), gives you a semi-boosted offensive spell per turn (okay) and lets you upkeep one spell a turn for free (FUCK YEAH). Sylys works well with Sorscha 1, Sorscha 2, Irusk 1, Irusk 2, Butcher 1, Zerkova 1, Zerkova 2, Old Witch and you get the idea. Perfect investment for the future.

More text coming up

>>51018057
continuing

Your list would look something like this after getting the models I wrote about:

Your list would look something like this:

Kozlov1 (Lord Kozlov Viscount of Scarsgrad)
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker
- Behemoth
- Decimator
- Juggernaut

- Man-O-War Shocktroopers (Leader and 4)
- Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer
- Man-O-War Kovnik
- Manhunter
- Kayazy Eliminators
- Widowmaker Scouts
- Widowmaker Marksman

From there, you have a bunch of options. First, I would replace the Decimator with a different Warjack. The Decimator is really expensive and wants a lot of focus from you and in return doesn't do a whole lot of Kozlov's melee focus. The Decimator is a niché piece, he works mostly only with Assassination casters like Sorscha1, because he can clear a path to charge through with his beatback gun.

The Manhunter should probably turn into a second unit eliminators. Manhunters are outclassed by them in most scenarios. If you really want to use the Manhunters, you should grab a second one and add Yuri the Axe. This way, all three of them have the Treewalker special rule if they stick somewhat close, allowing them to see (and charge) things in and out of forests they normally wouldn't be able to charge with just pathfinder.

For a replacement jack for the Decimator, I personally recommend either just a second Juggernaut or a Clamjack, the Devastator to be exact. The Devastator is REALLY bulky (ARM 23) unless you do normal, throw or his special attack (then he becomes ARM 19 for a turn). Devastators have a special attack that deal a POW 18 damage to all models b2b with it and POW 9 to models up to 3" away, which makes him useful at clearing infantry. The Devastator also has to fist you can use to throw other models, is immune to knockdown and pushing and lastly, remains at ARM 23 if he uses a slam of Headbutt Power Attack. I love these guys and so should you, just put it into a zone and your opponent needs to dedicate a lot resources to kill it.

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>>51018138
To finish this up, here's some more stuff that is universally good with a lot of casters:

Kodiaks: The Kodiak is a monster. Juggernaut bulk, Pathfinder, 2" of additional running and the abilities to both make a smoke cloud around it (damaging living models in it) and to get a free headbutt/throw after hitting with both initial attacks. I didn't recommend them for Kozlov, because he gives his Battlegroup Pathfinder already and the Juggernaut is both cheaper and hits a little harder, but they're not awful with him either. If you play them at all, I recommend two, because they can smoke next to each other in order to give you an 8" cloud screen to protect things behind it.

Alten Ashley/Eiryss1/KellBailoch/Eiryss2: A bunch of (expensive) mercenary sniper solos. They go along well with the Widowmakers+Marksman package and are able to cripple a system in one turn of shooting. Look them up yourself, because all of them do different things

Winter Guard Rifle Corps: They're great, they hit hard.

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich: He makes Rifles even greater and if pretty much mandatory if you field a Winter Guard unit in your army.

Gobber Tinker: I personally recommend this model, because it's out only available 2 points option and I often find myself missing exactly 2 points while building. For what it does, it repairs your jack and is hard to shoot, so it blocks zones pretty well.

Ruin: Butcher's character jack. Is immune to magic, has a 2" reach mace and can give itself focus by collecting the souls of dead enemies. Works well with almost anyone, but explodes if you actually play Butcher (Ruin's Bond with Butcher gives him Pathfinder on the charge).

>>51018057
>>51018138
Wow. Well, after reading through this, I am a bit boggled from this huge slam, but I think I get the jist of things. Basically, what I took from this is that
#1 Widow Makers work better with Jacks, since they help support by picking off units and certain boxes.
#2 The Behemoth is a must, since its super good at shooting and can thrive off of minimum focus.
#3 MoW need their attatchments to help get faster and get stronger.
#4 Replace the Decimator with a Devastator.
#5 Pick up a weird elf guy to help better manage my upkeep spells.

Did I miss anything?

>>51018369
Behemoth is also really good at punching things (he has Power 12 fists that half enemie armor, which only gets grosser if you put Fury on him ) and by replacing the Decimator, you actually get enough points freed to replace the Manhunter with the second unit Eliminators (Devastor 14, Decimator 16. Manhunter 4, Eliminators 5.)

Is this about right?

Balance Between Different Factions: 3/5
Balance Within Individual Factions: 2/5

>>50951158
Why does no one bother with Devastators? They're incredibly useful. My Karchev list has 2 in it.

>>50967375
Jan 25 if I remember correctly, until then my Issyria will continue to be a lonely woman

>>51020381
>Walk up to her
>Don't end movement
>Flashing Blade her to death
Nice Admonition, kid ;^)

>>51020690

>Actually thinking this is how the rules work
;^)