Warhammer Fantasy General

>>50946220
>End Times: Vermintide
>My game crashes first always when I hit the character selection screen and then when I start loading a mission.
What do?

>>50946318
Verify the game cache?

Check if your GPU drivers are up to date?

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People that play any edition after 5th disgust me, either play oldhammer or 9th, but you are literally still buying lots of models and supporting AoS like retards.

>>50946399
Any reason one can't play 5th with new models?
I play 7th with a mix of KOW and secondhand stuff

>>50946399
I buy historical minis and play 6'th edition.

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As promised, a pdf of the story( >>50934906 ) I posted over the last two threads, for anyone who happens to care.

Enjoy. Please feel free to tell me what I did wrong (or even what I did right). It's the only way I'll learn.

I very rarely use my tripcode, but since someone might actually want to talk to me about the story (it could happen) I thought it would be convenient. Also, for once I actually like something I've written and am not embarrassed to be associated with it.

>>50946399
I buy nothing and shitpost on /tg/
why do old army displays look so comfy?

>>50946759
>vibrant colours that are not too garish
>no overdesigned miniatures makes everything clear what you're looking at
>no overdramatic ADHD combat poses

>>50946318
How long have you had this issue? Have you verified your game cache? I had similar issues for a while, but it stopped being an issue after a while. It's weird, like it was actually a server or connection issue.

How does it crash? Any error messages? Also, what's your specs? Make sure all drivers are up to date.

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>>50946759
Most of them are well painted in a simple but pleasing way. Just about everything stands out just from their profile or their colors. The only place where I think it looks crap is with Bretonnian knights - their colors look so flat and boring, since GW encouraged no washes or detailing. It's like looking at a bunch of flags.

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Oh cool. Fireforge makes plastic archers now. It's like I don't need Games Workshop at all for my Bretonnia army.

>>50947365
Its the flat broad surfaces of the horses barding that does it

did that other anon finish his story?

>>50947898
which story?

>>50947365
lance formation was pretty silly

triangles in a game of rectangles were great

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Was there ever a relevant Ungor in the lore?

>>50948177
no, they're just there to provide the hero with easily killable minions.

Case in point: >>50946746

>>50947898
is >>50946746 what you're referring to?

>>50948177
Was there ever a relevant Bretonnian peasant, or Empire militiaman, or a Vampire Counts skeleton?

>>50948293
I was thinking of a particularly intelligent Ungor who would lead an army of rebellious Ungors that make smart use of muskets they stole from the Empire.

>>50948372
There are relevant Goblins and relevent Marauders.

>>50948394
>that make smart use of muskets they stole from the Empire.
That goes against the very nature of any beastman.
They hate civilization and want to see it destroyed.
Using guns requires training and supplies, i.e. organization and infrastructure.

Just not possible.

>>50948413
Goblins have their own groups - it's like how there are are relevant Orcs, because the whole group is Orcs.

Mauraders aren't as high up as Chaos Warriors, true, but leaders of them are more like captains in the Empire or lords in Bretonnia.

>>50948499
Any other idea to have an Ungor warlord?

>>50946759
THey rank up perfectly. They are not copy/paste identical, but still are mostly in the same pose.

Modern GW minis look like they are in combat. Old ones look like they are marching.

That's why I like a mix. New minis in the first two ranks, old minis in the back.

It helps that old warmachines are kind of cute. They're smaller, look more humble.

>>50948372
Militiamen in short stories.
There was an old Bret monk peasant who was slightly important.

>>50948534
Go back to the sourve material that GW ripped off.
Broo.

Make an Ungor who isn't completely evil. He guides travellers into conflict for the sake of conflict. It sometimes benefits them, sometimes not. All results benefit him. Civilization is a dying thing, he's standing back and watching it fall apart from a distance while his brothers hammer at the base of it.

He'd be a Dogs Of War character, not a Beastmen army one.

>>50948534
A female?

>>50948534
Yeah well, an Ungor rebellion sounds interesting, just saying using technology like muskets feels lore breaking. At least imo. I mean they are using crude weapons and armor, most of it probably looted too, but guns are quite a bit higher up on the civilization scale I think.

The paradox thing about Beastmen is that they are born out of pure chaos. They are basically a side effect of corruption like radiation or something. They spread like a cancer across the old world.
They hate civilization and order. The chaos god themselves have no love for them though, since they've always belonged to them - the thrill of corrupting the innocent etc doesn't play into their service to the gods.
They're basically a force of nature, even though there is nothing natural about them. They also have a natural pecking order. Which seems like a proto civilization but is determined by strength alone.

Gors, shit on the Ungors and Minotaurs, if they are smart enough to know they can do that, shit on everyone else.
Shamans are smarter than all of the other and favored by the gods, so they have a position of power, not necessarily as leader, but always as advisors.

Putting an Ungor in charge of anything would probably only happen if for some reason there were no Gors or Minotaurs around.

If you were to fluff it's like 'after a while in isolation an Ungor with unusually big horns was born and got shit done, then led the others back to the herd and wouldn't take shit from Gors anymore' (and avoid being killed of course) I could kind of see it.

>>50946220
>End Times: Vermintide
Is it worth getting if you have no friends to play it with.
The ones who do have it I think hate me and only have me for another point in the list.

>>50948795
If you don't suck and don't breath into the mic or scream like you're a ten year old /v/irgin, there should be no reason not to play with you.

But its good for PUG games.

Its just Left 4 Dead Warhammer basically.

>Don't buy TWW on launch because none of my armies are in
>It goes on sale, buy it
>Don't like Empire, greens okay, Vamps are okay
>Dwarfs are fucking amazing
>Keep playing Dwarfs
>Buy Dwarf minis
>Play some Dwarfs tabletop
>Read Dwarfs lore, love it
>thisholewasmeantforme.gif

Did anyone else do this?

>>50948795
while its on sale, yes. Not worth full price.

I'm playing it right now, actually

>>50948795
If you're EU me and some friends play occasionally, you'd be more than welcome to join.

>>50948969
Don't we have a /tg/ Steam group?

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Okay everyone...the moment of my return to playing warhammer... I got this army off ebay for 300 bucks. (let that sink in...300...dollars...full army...and to me has some really nice looking paint jobs..) I'll post the inventory first...then post some of the pics of the army.

protip: It's Bretons

x1 Leon Leoncoeur
x5 Grail Knights (unpainted...which I'm worried about them coming out crappy with my mediocre paint skills)
x2 Trebuchets
x3 Pegasus Knights
x2 Damsels on Foot
x1 Green Knight
x15 Archers
x15 Archers
x16 Men at Arms
x14 Men at Arms
x16 Men at Arms
x5 Questing Knights
x9 Knights of the Realm
x6 Knights of the Realm
x1 Lord
x1 Standard Bearer

>>50949069
I have no Idea

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How's this for a Terrorgheist stat block for WFRP 2e? Trying to make a foe at roughly the challenge level of a wyvern.

Terrorgheist
Terrorgheists are monstrously large undead, nearly the size of dragons, made from the remains of some of the truly terrific beasts that haunt Sylvania. Ghoul kings prize them greatly. Uniquely, owing to their infusion of vampiric blood, a Terrorgheist has some capacity to regenerate from injuries. Left to its devices, a terrorgheist will paralyze its foes with its terrifying scream before diving recklessly among them, savagely flailing about in a frenzied attempt to feed its dead, rotting body.
======================================
WS: 35 BS: 0 S: 55 T: 65 AG: 38 INT: 18 WP: 25 FEL: 0
A: 4 W: 40 SB: 5 TB: 6 M: 4 (8) MAG: IP: - FP:
======================================
Armor: H - 0; B - 0; A - 0; L - 0

Skills: Perception +20

Talents: Flier, Keen Senses, Natural Weapons (Claws, Teeth), Strike Mighty Blow, Strike to Injure, Terrifying, Undead, Unstoppable Blows

Abilities:
*Death Shriek: A terrorgheist's scream is a sonic weapon of terrific, some say magical power that many liken to hearing the screams of the damned themselves. Whatever the case, it can inflict terrible injuries or even kill those who hear it outright. As a full action, a terrorgheist may perform a death shriek. Use the cone template. Targets in this space suffer a Damage 4 hit that ignores armor. Additionally, they must roll a Willpower check or be stunned for 1 round. Targets that are immune to psychological effects cannot be stunned, and the death shriek can be mitigated to a Damage 2 attack with a successful Agility check.

*Regenerate: At the beginning of its turn, a Terrorgheist regenerates 1d10-1 Wounds that are not inflicted by blessed weapons or spells from a Divine lore.

>>50948372
>Was there ever a relevant Bretonnian peasant

Repanse d'Lyonesse.

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>>50949076
So starting out with the Standard Bearer... again..I'm flabergasted I got that entire list for 300 (shipping included too!)

>>50949114
Thin your paints

>>50946399
I always liked 3rd Ed. best, except for the Pushback Rule.

>>50949133
Thanks Dustin

>>50948969
Sure, better than the crippling depression of no multiplayer games.

Last thread everyone was saying Gav Thorpe never wrote good Fantasy.

He has. Dwarfs.

Grudgelore, Doom Of Dragonback, 6e Army Book.

Gav writes 40k bottom tier shit garbage for every other faction. But his Dwarf stuff is good.

>>50949248
Which is funny because he is the elf guy.

>>50949337
He likes fantasy and likes Eldar.

He sucks because he has to combine the two.

>>50949420
It also devalues Eldar as it's own thing in 40k.

What did Mallobaude see when he drank from the Grail?

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>>50948177
There's Ungrol Four-Horn

>>50948394
My Beastlord's background is that he's Bray who was the most downtrodden member of the herd.
Then one day he challenged the former Beastlord to a leadership duel and Tzeentch smiled upon him for his sheer ballsiness and granted him victory.
Now he wears the old Beastlord's horns as a trophy and leads the herd with the leadership roles upended - ungors are higher status than gors.

This was before the 7th edition book though. I'm sad they used a very similar story for Ungrol.

>>50949564
Age of Sigmar.

>>50948721
>Ungor with unusually big horns
Isn't that just a gor?

>>50949337
Makes perfect sense, really. You don't sperg out over stuff you don't idolize. It's like Ward and Ultramarines.

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>>50946759
Same desu

>actually playing this shit
>not just being a fan of the lore and setting

>>50949792
I'm still cross with him for making Vampire Counts bland. Alessio branched them out from being the Dracula faction to 5 different subfactions and Hav just rolled it back to the Dracula faction with some sideshow units.

>>50948969
So you or me gonna drop a name or what?

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>>50949114
>Mould lines
>Barely washed
>Possibly unthinned paints
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Great as a tabletop standard, and 300 for a full, discontinued army (you may need extra knights tho) seems like a bargain, congrats!

>>50949114
I can tell by this model alone that you got a great deal.

>>50949094
Anyone?

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Alright whfb grognards.
help me and yourself to get those old hammer minis back instead of complaining about how large your anus is since AoS.
pic related. On facebook you need to ask for more oldhammer models.
they are literraly giving you the change to have any order models in METAL even back to the first molds, and i see none of your grognards crying for lost mini posting anything.

the post is """old""" but still relevant

>>50950907
the link : https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/13/made-to-order/

lets go basement dwelling faggots. at least dwell with me and cool af oldhammer minis

>>50950907
I asked for 6'th edition Empire Greatswords.

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>>50950982
I need boxes of old greatsword so bad.

>>50950907
Come to think of it. I stopped buying a lot of minis in 8'th edition because I hated Finecast. If they had stuck with metal I would have been buying more WHFB.

>>50951049
I can only hope that they will listen.

>>50946746
Thanks for the PDF! I think you really nailed the warhammer fantasy setting's mood and tone here. I particularly liked your take on the beastmen, and I really enjoyed how the twist at the end had plausible justification rather than being pure deus ex machina. I notice that between this and your halloween story you've really stuck to holiday themed tales. Perhaps this is constraining you more than helping? I'd be interested to see any stories you write that have year-round appeal. All in all it was a great read, and I might even send it to some of my friends who don't frequent this board.

>>50949735
According to Lexicanum, a Gor is any beastman with horns. Thus, Ungors are in fact a variety of Gor that simply happen to have smaller horns, thinner hides, and less muscle mass. Hornless beastmen are called Brays and they're the REAL lowest of the low.

As for the ongoing "revlevant ungor" question, to me it seems like magic is the only real force for social mobility in Beastmen culture. Shamans can have a lot of influence, so why not make our Relevant Ungor a particularly powerful spellcaster who consistently slays his larger and stronger challengers using magic?

Pat skaven.

>>50952310
> I notice that between this and your halloween story you've really stuck to holiday themed tales.
like I said, now that they've discontinued fantasy I don't have much inclination to write for it any more. I'd already decided to write something Christmassy for /tg/ (as I did last year with 'A Visit From Logan Grimnar'), and I only picked a Warhammer Fantasy theme largely because I bought myself Total War: Warhammer and Vermintide for Christmas, so I've been on kind of a Warhammer Fantasy nostalgia binge recently. I miss you, Fantasy

I write non-holiday-themed stuff all the time, just hardly ever for Fantasy (owing to its untimely demise). If you want further examples of my work, I've done a 40k story or two
https://1d4chan.org/images/3/33/EldarExarch.png
https://1d4chan.org/images/9/94/WitchForest.png
plus dozens of miscellaneous other works.

I may have one more complete Warhammer Fantasy story laying around somewhere from a few years back. I'll see if I can dig it out tomorrow, but it's gone 4am here so I should probably get some sleep.

(also, if you read my skaven story, what did you think of it? Did I get the skaven right?)

> rather than being pure deus ex machina
or was it?

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>>50952971
and naturally, having established that I have a trip, I fucking forget to use it.

>>50951360
I love that picture.

anybody tried using Tabletop Simulator to play WHFB? seems like it could work

Can anyone give a summary of empire precautions/defenses on blackfyre pass? Lexicanium is very vauge and my wfrp 2e sourcebooks don't say anything.

>>50950775
Well from what little WHFRP knowledge I have, I'd say those stats are right and proper.

>>50953619
I think there's at least two castles there and as many as 3 knightly orders. One specializes in mountaineering, and then there's the Knights of Sigmar's Blood, I think.

I'm going to be featuring a conflict in my WFRP 2e game between two minor Bretonnian families.

One has a castle and modest attendant holdings, the other probably two or three castles altogether and attendant holdings.

What sort of force would it be realistic for them to field in household knights and trained yeoman?

>>50950907
At this point talking to GW is like talking to an abusive boyfriend.


I'll stick to ebay

>>50954764
except by buying on ebay you fuel GW.
go chinaman if you really want to boycott

>>50954764
i only i could find 40 of the first dark elf crossbowman on ebay that easily...
They never show up. let alone being at a decent price.

>>50948177
Yes. The most scurrilous Ungor in Drakwald once traveled north, bred with imperial women which are now the UngoL.

>>50954764
Those pricks are sticking me worse than GW ever did.

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>>50954188
Not sure if you mean real historical yeomen or Yeomen in the Bretonnian context - in the Bretonnian context, Yeomen are mounted peasants with bows and spears that act as skirmishers.

Anyway, you'll obviously get the respective nobles of the families who will fight as Knights of the Realm - possibly some Knight Errants among younger members of the family, or travelling Knights Errant looking for a good feud to prove their worth in. For one castle and modest holdings, I'd guess they'd be able to offer up six Knights of the Realm, and twelve Knights Errant. The two to three castles and attendant holdings, you'll see a number more - sixteen Knights of the Realm, and twenty Knights Errant. This is a shoddy estimate at best - really depends on the size of the families and the type of the feud, and what other families might join them.

For peasant forces, I imagine the one castle force would be able to raise up maybe thirty Men-at-Arms and thirty Archers, with the three castle force being able to raise up a little over a hundred of each - they have more holdings, and probably have more healthy peasants to draw levies from. Yeomen would not be as common as knights, but I imagine a squad of six for the one castle, a squad of twelve for the other. A lot of these guys would probably be entrusted with defending their respective castles, instead of the field.

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I keep coming back to the WHFB setting, its just so fun. The problem is I could never really pick an army.

Most of them grabbed me in some way when I read the army book.

>>50955795
That's where mordheim comes in.
Get one of each warband for the price of a single full sized army.
Make sweet multi-levelled terrain.
Play a campaign and watch the story form up.
It's quite possibly the most fun you can have with WHFB models and lore.

>>50955945
I remember once a guy modelled one of his warband with a spring for a leg.

Because he lost his leg and gained the leap ability after the same battle.

>>50950907
Really, understanding the OP isn't that fucking hard.

>Kindly no End Times or Age of Sigmar. Please go shill/troll elsewhere.

>>50949114
I love the attention to detail, but it annoys me so much that it's combined with unthinned paint and poor washing.

>>50957106
Huge faggot. Its about having fucking new in box oldhammer models

>>50957150
No, its about shilling for the abusive husbando. There's an entire general dedicated to sucking GW cock and fapping over WoW-tier fluff and models. Go there. Stop shitting up unrelated threads that very kindly and respectfully ask you to not bring that shit here, already in the OP.

>>50957150
If we want models, we'll get them from somewhere else. I don't want GW anywhere near Warhammer Fantasy again, whatwith 8th Edition, End Times, and Age of Shitmar. They went out of their way to destroy the setting and render it both confusing and unusable, seemingly to spite fans of it. Fuck GW.

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what does everyone think of dryads, I really like the models

>>50957259
I was always interested in the more alien designs, like the ones with three eyes or asymmetrical faces.

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>>50957259
>mfw the dryads came out

Never wanted to play an elf army. Even elf terrorists.

Year later I bought some so convert as minor demons for a Word Bearer host.

Now that that book is outdated too and minor demons aren't even a thing anymore I dunno.
Still like the models.

>>50957259
I fucking love that. Please, more.

>>50957690
>minor demons
Please, tell me more, especially in how it relates to dryads.

>>50957947
>>50957690
>I bought some to convert

In other words I liked the models so I bought them without having any real use for them.

Don't be a smartass. Reading the post, even with typos should make it clear what I was talking about. Especially given the context of how the other anon said
>>50957259
>I really like the models

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>>50957405
you'd love total warhammers take on them

>>50957947
if you insist

but I do admit anons my gf did these,I just think they are pretty neat. I absolutely adore the models for these and treeman my lord, It almost makes me wish I weren't an empire man

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>>50958092
To be fair here are some of those forementioned empire I liked that I've done, just took pictures of them.

>>50957981
I wasn't being a smartass, sorry. I was honestly curious. Re-reading it, I can see how it's all "Please, tell me more about this claim that is obviously bullshit", but I wasn't being a memelord.

Because dryads totally sound like something that would be a form of minor daemon.

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>>50958335
Okay, sorry I was just pissed off already about something else when I read that.

At the risk of taking this a teensy bit off topic I intended to model them after the wordbearers badge with the flaming skullface.
So I was either going to sculpt that myself by hand or do some headswaps and then add flames to the back of the minis myself.
I was going to paint them like burned coal basically with flames dragging behind them.

I made this super informative infograph for illustrative purposes.
In reality I just usually shop conversions I'm thinking about doing before doing them.This one would involve some sculpting though so I left it at that.

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>>50946746
>>50952310
>>50952971
Here we go, I knew I had one lying around somewhere: as promised, a non-holiday-themed Warhammer Fantasy story (and as an added bonus it's not nearly as long as >>50946746)

>>50958965
I should probably have mentioned that the factions featured in the story are Dark Elves and Vampire Counts.

>>50955682
Alright, thank you.

Out of curiosity are there any collective nouns for beastmen? Like a gore of Khornegors or a pounding of Slanngors...A miasma of Pestigors or a myriad of Tzaangors?

>>50959085
Just herds or brayherds afaik.

>>50959141
Ah...That's kind of boring

>>50958981
you still running the storythread?

>>50957243
"we" ? i was playing whfb you werent even born kiddo.

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>>50958168
>>50958092
>>50957259

>>50957208
Oh okay you,re just a disguised AoS shill looking to blow up the thread.
Fine
2/10 for making me answer

Are there any video series about how to play Warhammer Fantasy?

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>>50957208
>>50957243
Fuck you both, I want my fucking Settra and that cunt on eBay who's been relisting him for $200 can shove the kit up his ass sideways.

I won't support AoS, but I want fucking Warhammer Fantasy models. Especially in metal.

>>50959206
Dwarfs came up with the Gor names.
Humans gave them the boring ones.

>>50961074
A few, but they are very basic and very few for armies.

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This thread now belongs to the Chaos Dorfs

>>50961271
>I won't support AoS
AoS was never the problem. GW was. Now kindly get the fuck out.

>>50962546
I mean, you are acting like a turbo autist honestly. Why even care about Warhammer at all? GW made it, so you should hate it and play Kings of War

>>50962546
That's completely incorrect.

Sure, Konami a shit for fucking up Castlevania and never making another one. But that's like bitching about people buying a rerelease of Symphony because "the problem was Konami". No, the problem was what they did. If they unfuck it or do what was good again, there is no problem.

My anger stems from the removal of my favorite models. Yours seems to stem from a dark night in the back room with Gav Thorpe and a rubber fist.

>>50946399
Why do the skeleton horsemen use the bridge when they are ethereal?

>>50963884
Force of habit.

so what edition is the best edition for fantasy?, everyone seems to shit on above 6th, and I'd want to learn 9th age but the latest update took a lot out

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>>50963884
>skeleton
>ethereal

>>50964044
6e and T9A. Or 1-3e, but those are basically a totally different game. 1e is basically AoS with no lore.

All others have major flaws.

>>50964308
I never played 6e anon, how does 6e and 9a differ from 8th

>>50946399
>If you want to shoot my skeletons with a cannon, you'll have to go through me!
>Shit Hanz, I think that guy wearing a dress is serious. We'll have to let them pass.

>>50964313
6e is pretty balanced between types of soldiers internally and armies externally.
7e introduced a lot of changes that fucked up the rules that that balance relied on while not updating some books and putting ridiculous win buttons in others.
8e fixed nothing and added all sorts of big toys, making everyone who disn't get an update get left in the dust.

T9A is closer to 6e, but is better balanced for competitive play and has rules for the models added in 7e and 8e.

>>50964345
hmm thanks for the info anon, you've said 9th is balanced for tournament play, on their official forums I've read that it is balanced at the expense of factions losing flavour. How do both 6th and 9tha do for noncompetitive matches? , as I only really have 1 person I can play with.

>>50964378
6e and 9e are both good for non-comp play. Neither have super cheesy strategies. Neither are better than the other, other than T9A having the models 6e has no rules for.

>>50964469
Neat paintjob. But wrong base.

>>50964378
Some factions regained flavor, like Vampires. But Skaven got neutered.

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>tfw you want to do justice to antique architecture and defensive concepts, so you find yourself doing research frantically at the expense of planning for the actual game, making stage dressing that the players will almost certainly ignore in a theatre of the mind game.

>>50966001
If it helps, I love you for it. What are you specifically looking at? Maybe some advice can be given.

>>50960003
Yeah, there'll be one this coming Friday. I was going to mention in the last thread that I was planning on skipping a week because of people being busy with holiday stuff, but it 404'd rather quicker than usual.

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Question for lore nerds.
I am making a mod that adds a bunch of buildings to the empire for TW:WH.

Now do particular wizards stay in particular towers? Like do Life wizard stay in Towers of Life and Bright wizards stay in towers of fire?

>>50966310
how convenient.

>>50966205
My players are 4channers, so I can't give too many details save that it involves minor families in a Bretonnian backwater, and the castles thereof.

I'm guessing there are still a LOT of motte and bailey castles in Bretonnia.

Are Empire state troops conscripts?

>>50966616
At least in the Empire, different mages have different colleges in Altdorf. Towers would basically be mini-colleges, so yes, Jade Wizards are in Towers of LIfe, Bright Wizards are in Towers of Fire. Only real exception to this are Amber Wizards, because they love animals too much and fuck off to be outside of civilization in most cases.

>>50967025
You can be conscripted, though there are also professionals. It depends on war footing, what state you're in, and who's in charge of your unit, I believe. In general, though, state troops are professionals.

Free company militia are more likely to be volunteers or press-ganged men (and sometimes women).

>>50967179
So, Amber wizard heroes being a local garrison hero if I build a temple(sacred grove) of taal would be a good workaround right?

>>50967293
I suppose so - that's enough of a wild place for Amber wizards, I suppose, and Taal's domain includes a lot about animals. It's a pity that End Times didn't do all that much for him despite suddenly making him most powerfulest, and also took away Rhya.

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>>50967293
Tree of Might

>>50966616
All Wizards are taught at independent colleges in Altdorf, but when it comes to the actual practice of their professions, they are free to do whatever the hell they want, as long as it doesn't break the law and so on.

Generally, this means that how they live will differ greatly. Brown/Amber Wizards/Shamans will almost invariably be solitary or in groups of their own, but in cities, there can be wizarding guilds intended primarily for Journeyman Apprentices/Senior Journeymen and Magisters.

In Middenheim, for example, there's a "Guild of Wizards & Alchemists", where the guildmaster is titled High Wizard of Middenheim. It is responsible for issuing licenses for sanctioned use of magic in the city, and it welcomes practitioners of all (legal) magic as it's part of their charter to do so, as sanctioned by the Colleges of Magic.

So I've become a fan of Warhammer Fantasy for just about two years now and absolutely love the setting. However, when the world was revamped and GW decided to make AoS, I felt a bit of aversion. I guess I'll get it straight from /tg/ rather than let this continue to fester.

How much of the lore/story did they butcher? I know some parts where Sigmar basically rode on a magical space dragon and created a new world and shit, but is he still toting around and shit with his !!NOT SPACE MARINES!! or did he just fuck off into the cosmos? What I'm primarily concerned about are the dwarves (whatever name that they go by now) and their lore. Are they the same mother fuckers that I still know and love? I guess one aspect as to why I hate AoS is that all the cool stories about the dwarves of old are basically. . . erased. No more book of Grudges, no more Thorgrim, no more Slayer King, no more Gotrix and Felix.

>>50967679
Given that the Empire is a feudal, guild-based society, something like this is probably more or less the norm in larger cities, with some smaller cities trying to imitate it. I am now imagining the situation involving a wizard arriving to a city only to find that licenses are issued by the head of the Wizarding & Witchery Guild - who just happens to be a Witch Hunter, the entire guild membership basically being witch-hunters, fanatics and riff-raff.

>>50967293
I don't think sacred groves and trees are a thing for the Amber Wizards, really. Think primal, savage, beastly. I think that it is more likely that Jade Wizards (Druids) would shun the wizarding guilds and civilization and form groves and covens.

Amber Wizards (Shamans) would probably be more Spirit Caves and shit. And while Jade Wizards could easily go into towns and hang out in parks or make their own and shit, but likely do so reluctantly if there's groves and standing-stones nearby (especially by ley lines), the Amber Wizards would straight-up shun that shit.

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>>50967741
I feel you, but we try not to talk about AoS here. There's still Total Warhammer, Vermintide, Man O' War, and skirmish games and RPGs, even if you don't subscribe to 9th Age or play the last few editions of WFB.

>>50967741
>How much of the lore/story did they butcher?
During End Times? An enormous amount.
By Age of Shitmar? Practically everything.

For all intents and purposes, End Times and Age of Sigmar are different settings from Warhammer Fantasy. It presents a stark and definitive break, rather than the gradual slide and change of fluff over time that we've seen before (such as the flanderization of Chaos, etc.). End Times goes against a ton of established themes and concepts and tropes, even by 8th Edition standards, and Age of Shillmar straight-up counteracts pretty much everything.

End Times and Age of Sigmar relates to eachother, which is why they're lumped together. But in regards to established fluff prior to End Times, neither of them makes any sense whatsoever, which is why they're considered inapplicable to Warhammer Fantasy by fans of the setting.

Most of your more specific questions regard the more specific fluff of Age of Sigmar itself, so in the interest of the one thread rule we have, you should really go to the Age of Sigmar General and ask there, instead, since answering them will only shit up this thread with things that do not relate to Warhammer Fantasy anymore.

>>50964763
it's the right one, it's bloodbowl

>>50964096
I too remember skeletal horses being ethereal for the purpose of movements, or at least black knights'

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>>50963884
So the scared peasantry does have nowhere left to run of course.

>>50967837
That came in in 8th ed and only applied to black knights I believe.


Christ 8th was a crock of shit

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>>50967741
the biggest butchery came with the elves and I'm not talking about malekith being the rightful king all along, but how they handled their creation and end-goal
>old ones practically thrown out of the equation
>everyone important is a reincarnated god
>things can only be relevant if my elf boi is involved
>disregard how gods work, your whole faction and beliefs are only and exclusively a puppet
>but it's okay because we're tragic =^(
makes you realise why ward considered this his masterpiece

>>50967967
I'm relatively sure the rule was also present before

>>50968017
I think it's from at least 6e. Maybe earlier.

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Why do I feel so dissatisfied with the truth behind Bretonnia and the Lady of the Lake? It's not as if the fact that there was some some secret wasn't clear. Was it because Lileath was kind of a half-forgotten goddess that no one suspected?

>>50968148
>Why do I feel so dissatisfied with the truth behind Bretonnia and the Lady of the Lake?

The truth behind the Lady of the Lake is still pretty much unknown. I think it's pretty clear that the cult is instigated/created by the wood elves, but the exact nature is never revealed, as far as I know.

Personally, I think it's Ariel that is "the Lady" and that the powers exhibited by Grail Knights and such is basically elven priestery, channelling with the aid of Isha.

>>50968148
>Why do I feel so dissatisfied with the truth behind Bretonnia and the Lady of the Lake?

Because it was largely revealed in the End Times and thus inherently hugely dissatisfying?

>>50967744
>I am now imagining the situation involving a wizard arriving to a city only to find that licenses are issued by the head of the Wizarding & Witchery Guild - who just happens to be a Witch Hunter, the entire guild membership basically being witch-hunters, fanatics and riff-raff.

Wizards are only licensed by the Colleges of Magic in Altdorf, and you have legal authority to practice magic once you get your Journeyman's papers, though you must pay cash to re-apply and become a full Wizard after that.
A witch hunter couldn't assign licenses to wizards because he doesn't have legal writ to do so, though a local witch hunter (as in one that sticks to a city or province or is a mercenary) could make it rather difficult for a Wizard to do even the basics of their jobs they were hired for by constantly investigating them, casting local suspicion, and putting pressure on people who might want to hire one

When it comes to authority and power in the Empire there is very little actual overlap, but lots of checks and balances; nobody can really order around or directly control matters outside their jurisdiction, but they can make it harder for people outside of their jurisdiction to do their jobs.

>>50967025
No, most are not.
In fact in real life the kinds of mass-conscripted peasants that /tg/ often makes silly broad claims about are largely nonexistent in large numbers during the Medieval, Late Medieval, and Renissance periods.

>>50968319
What about in places like Bretonnia?

>>50968295
>Wizards are only licensed by the Colleges of Magic in Altdorf

You seem to have missed the posts preceding mine. I wasn't referring to licenses to practice magic in general, which are not a thing - you get a sanction, not a license, by virtue of being a member of the collegiate - I was referring to licenses to practice magic within a city, in the same way you need a license to practice carpentry within the city from a carpenter's guild.

>When it comes to authority and power in the Empire there is very little actual overlap

What? There's a whole clusterfuck of potential overlap on practically all layers.

>>50968334
They'd be MUCH more common there then in the Empire, but even a peasant bowman would actually be closer to real-life National Guard or any kind of regional state militia called up; it takes a LOT of strength and training to use a longbow so it's hardly the ideal weapon for a cheap and untrained peasant. The peasant knows HOW to fight but it's not a full-time job for him like it is a man-at-arms or a knight's is.

The real barrier way back when is that equipment was expensive (it was literally all hand made remember, which was just as expensive and time consuming then as it is now, or more so in many cases) and training took a LONG time comparatively because melee weapons are harder to use then guns and drilling to fight in rank-and-file systems is rough. An untrained peasant, even lots of them, would fold up like a wet paper bag in an actual battle to even a halfway trained troop, and then you have an entire unit to fed and dragged across the countryside and spent time on that suddenly did nothing except die and leave your flanks totally exposed and so peasant conscripts were a measure used only by the desperate or stupid.

>>50968319
>No, most are not.

Source? As far as I know, the Empire makes heavy use of forced conscription when it's considered necessary. The armies contain thousands of would-be peasants, and much like in real life, the Empire will suffer enormously after a major conflict because the farmers have been pulled off the fields.

>>50968346
>What? There's a whole clusterfuck of potential overlap on practically all layers.

You're misusing the word overlap.
Overlap is when one person can hold multiple positions of authority, and in the Empire one of the only cases where that is possible is the Emperor himself (who hold both his original noble title and his elected title as Emperor), but noble title holders are not wizards, wizards are not priests, priests are not nobles, and guildmastere are usually burgomeisters (middle or upper-middle class) and none of the above.
Every single one of these groups can wield tremendous authority though, which means in theory they all have to get along because they can all make each other's job harder even though an important priest has officially zero ability to influence a nobleman for example.

>>50968406
>Source?
Real life history teacher here, namely me.
>and much like in real life
Incorrect, for reasons I stated above.
If it IS true in Warhammer Fantasy (and it might be because it IS a fantasy setting) it has nothing to do with realism or actual history, as not only is that wildly inaccurate for the time period that the Empire is portrayed as being in but is in fact the OPPOSITE of what actually happened in the real history period it was in.
By the Renaissance professional infantry was FAR more common, and different nations handled this in different ways.

>>50968148
It's because gods in warhammer have numerous origins, sources and ways of manifesting or being interpreted, but the revelation of the elf flattened all possibilities of depth or ramifications about it.

was the cult of the lady kickstarted and supported by elven agenda? yes, since bretonnia was fleshed out this hint was decided and left creeping at the fundations, but there was always place for more.

>>50968437
To elaborate; by the 14th century or Late Medieval peroid there was what some people call an "Infantry Renaissance" as methods infantryman could use to defeat previously unbeatable armored knights were getting more and more common and easier and easier to use, so you NEEDED a strong infantry backbone to not die and barely trained peasants are kind of the exact opposite of that.
Different nations handled it in different ways. One of the ways Britain compensated was by making skill with a bow or other weapon semi-mandatory among it's peasantry so they could call up a reasonably trained (if not actually professional) militia if they needed more numbers.
Other nations made heavy use of mercenaries to be the professional infantry they needed (such as Italy's many city-states), but the Holy Roman Empire frequently had trained state soldiers (depending on which part of the Empire in question) as well as independent knightly orders, knights serving particular lords, Imperial Knights (Knights sworn directly to the Kaiser as opposed to a feudal lord), and mercenary suppliments.

>>50968384
>>50968490
Where does the "mass conscripted peasants" thing even come from then?

>>50968500
Misconceptions, mostly.
Enlightenment-era and later historians comparing Medieval culture to Rome's, applying standards of their own time periods to Medieval times; one of the benefits of the musket and other easy to use and relatively cheap firearms is that in a month you can teach any idiot at all to use it proficiently and in six you can teach them to use it professionally.

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>>50968437
>If it IS true in Warhammer Fantasy (and it might be because it IS a fantasy setting)
this point is pretty relevant, also when that ratfag brings up how rats are actually clean and social beings: warhammer is not inspired by history or nature but by perceptions of them, which are inevitably distorted and bloated, so we end up with the nefarious skaven, the horned vikings and the huge numbers composing the nations and armies at play.

>>50968555
>warhammer is not inspired by history or nature but by perceptions of them
In all fairness, the original guys who created the setting had a strong background in actual history, though as has been pointed out they have been gradually phased out over time.

>>50968555
>huge numbers composing the nations and armies at play
Not all that huge in most cases actually.
Definitely larger then in actual history (the real-life Empire's military was a complicated affair) but relatively down to Earth in earlier (pre-6e/7e) fluff compared to most fantasy settings.

>>50963884
It looks good.

>>50968555
>warhammer is not inspired by history
Well, anon from above, at least how I interpreted his post, asked about Empires in general.
But maybe I am wrong.

>>50968555
I think that the horned vikings and Chaos Warriors are more a thing because of Frazetta barbarians.

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>>50968640
Chaos Warriors DO look suspiciously like the Death Dealer.

>>50968555
I dunno. I remember Alessio mentioned when coming up with ideas for Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings he had historical inspiration and references. For instance, the Blood Dragons mostly turned out the way they did because he was a fan of historical knights.

>>50968148
Because Lileath went full retard to enable ET to happen. She literally caused it by allowing the Everqueen's daughter be kidnapped by Mannfred, and sabatoged everything that could stop ET until the final battle where she passed the idiot ball of +2 backstabbing to Mannfred.

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>>50968421
>You're misusing the word overlap.
No, you are: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/overlap

I was reading it as in an overlap of authority, such as multiple different organizations or authorities holding sway over a particular aspect of society at once, whereas you seem to have been referring to something else.

>>50968437
>Real life history teacher here, namely me.
So, no source whatsoever, then? None?

>Incorrect, for reasons I stated above.
Except you haven't really stated any reasons.

>... Warhammer Fantasy ... has nothing to do with realism or actual history
>Empire is portrayed as being ... is ... the OPPOSITE of what actually happened

You are drawing the wrong conclusions based on your preconceptions of what occurred in real-life history compared to what The Empire has gone through. Yes, it is true that by the renaissance, professional infantry was far more common, but as you say, different nations handled this in different ways, but more importantly, in Warhammer Fantasy, the Empire is not in the renaissance, and it has not experienced the many things that lead up to what forced us to leave the feudal system, yet.

In *actual* fact, if there's anything that will lead up to it, it is the aftermath of the Storm of Chaos, when the effects of it becomes apparent.

In analogy to our own history, the Empire is just about to start leaving the guild systems because they are inefficient, and the merchants about to become truly capable of challenging the nobility. The Empire isn't the renaissance, it occupies a position analogous to several different time periods at once. Social, technological and economical development isn't linear, and you seem to be ignoring historical causality.

>tfw I am an actual history teacher

>>50969347
Not him, but Empire State Troops are stated in the fluff to being a standing army of professional soldiers at late as 8th Edithon in the army book, and they are the most generic unit the Empire has.
It's the Free Company units that are militia and draftees and mercenaries.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=831679533

Guys, thanks for your feedback. I released version 1 of my mod. It's pretty barebones at the moment and I plan on adding more fantasy stuff later on like the aforementioned wizard towers.

Any ideas on what else to add for the empire would be much appreciated!

>>50968588
>(the real-life Empire's military was a complicated affair)
Other than at a surface level, The Empire's military is also a ridiculously complicated affair. Much of the way it's portrayed in the games just skip past it. But on a deeper fluff level, you have the whole incompetent nobility and actually competent commanders and all the different layers of command and the various counties beholden to the grand counties and the elector counts and then all the religious people under command of the various churches and then the knightly orders basically managing themselves, and all the mercenary companies, and then all the forcibly drafted peasants, each technically under the command of whatever army originally drafted them, etc, etc, etc.

>>50968565
>In all fairness, the original guys who created the setting had a strong background in actual history
Yeah, which is probably why the earlier fluff is a hell of a lot more ambiguous and fleshed out, with much fewer preconceptions regarding modernist moral judgements and such. They pretty much went out of their way to depict just how messy everything is and that it's hard to fathom from a modern point of view, while they would likely have found modern society at least as perplexing and confusing.

>damn that 2000 character limit is annoying

>>50969476
>cont'
>>50968500
Dark Age/Medieval system, really, where under feudal rule a village or peasants were required to supply this or that many able-bodied men to the army, and when necessary, this could be increased. It was basically a form of taxation.

The idea of actual forced mass-conscription has happened rarely throughout real-time European history, though. Certainly never on the scale exhibited in The Empire, to the best of my knowledge. It tends to end badly, because you're pulling farmers from their fields to go die in a different part of the world (relatively speaking).

So after the Storm of Chaos, much of the southern Empire is going to have a really, really shitty harvest. Meanwhile, the northernmost Empire is pillaged by norscans, Archaon, and the Hordes of Chaos. And while The Empire does not seem to engage in the insane plundering of the own people that often occurred in real life, the armies of the Empire have likely consumed most of what's available in the regions they've passed. And Middenheim and Talabheim are overflowing with refugees; especially Middenheim, having just suffered a devastating siege).

The post-Storm of Chaos setting was really interesting, but they never really did anything of all the stuff they could've done with it. Instead they rebooted it and started shitting all over the place.

>>50969406
Yes, the counties have state troops. They belong to the Elector Counts, and are also known as Provincial Armies, or as a whole, as the Imperial Army.

Here's a quick-and-dirty link:
http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/State_Troops#Military

For anyone interested in part of what The Empire might be going through soon, check out the "Peasant's Revolt" that occurred much as a result of the Black Death and the Hundred Years' War. And let's not forget that this might not happen at all, because the Empire is basically small pockets of civilizations in a massive landscape of horrifying forests. I think that would put a bit of a damper on quite a bit of things that occurred in the real world.

While "It's fantasy, lol, it doesn't have to make sense" is never an acceptable excuse, let's all try to remember that while The Old World is analogous to a mix of medieval, renaissance and enlightenment Europe, it is, in fact, not the real world. The Empire is reminiscent of The Holy Roman Empire, but it isn't The Holy Roman Empire.

The only major weirdness is really high-medieval-age chivalry-all-day Bretonnia, but I usually work around this by considering "early Bretonnia" fluff to be more or less just as valid as "modern Bretonnia" fluff. It's surprisingly easy, if you just consider the nobility to be incredibly reactionary and the grail cult to be an insular cult of the ruling nobility, instigated by the elves as a means of control that is about to backfire hard.

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>>50969406
It's worth pointing out that Free Company and Militia are two separate things despite being conflated.
Militia are conscripted in emergencies while Free Companies are mercenary units.

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>tfw no crazy wardancer GF who prowls through your estate by day scaring your subordinates and crawls into your bed at night and fucks your brains out.

Jesus christ this game is perfect waifu fodder.

I want waifufags to leave.

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>>50969820
you should tell that to CA.
We waifus now

>>50969900
And thus warhammer elves have been ruined too.

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>>50969785
>Wardancers
>Indistinguishable from regular wood elves with their shitty generic green and brown leather armour

You had one job GW. At least give them masks and a bit of colour or something, christ.

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>>50969785
Elves 4 lyfe

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I miss the golden era of WHFB artwork. Now most of the stuff they produce just looks bland and uninspired.

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>>50970163

>>50962252
All twelve of them?

>>50969959
mmm do we tell him guys ?

GW has nothing to do with the development on TWWH. they just sold the IP.
also
>what are mods

>>50969347
>tfw I am an actual history teacher

so no source or proof. ok.

>>50946399
For a second there I actually thought that some mad man had made lego warhammer a reality

>>50969406
The difference between Mercenaries and Professional troops was rather more blurred during the Middle Ages.

Venice for example used mercenaries but they were very much professional troops and would serve for many years, they were a forerunner of more modern armies and an inspiration for the likes of France

>>50970253
Well no shit, but GW redesigned the wardancers.
CA just contributed a really lackluster interpretation, so I guess it's partially their fault.

>>50970495
CA was always slacking on some terms in most games. I.e. looks of arverni tribe elites, polish hussars lances and the usage of them in empire, historical faux pases. I cringed seeing they made warhammer fantasy game, but oh well new players.

>>50970642
It's kinda cool to get a fantasy RTS in this day and age at all. It seems like a mostly dead genre.

>>50946746
Good shit my boy

>>50968334
Even less common on average, I believe. Bretonnia is still feudal, and most of the peasants are required to farm so you don't starve. That's hard for them to do if they're dead on a battlefield somewhere.

Now, the French and the Russians DID make use of more peasant levies than most medieval cultures, but in general what would happen is that soldiers would be trained and paid professionals, or as another anon said, basically national guardsmen. It seems that yeomen in WHF are professionals - soldiering is all they do - while bowmen are trained the way the English trained theirs and compensated similarly, same with men-at-arms. (Both are subject to nobles fucking them over with fees to avoid paying them that much).

>>50968500
Misconceptions and the Russians. The French did it a bit too, I think.

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>>50969785
I'm disappointed they got rid of the 'generally nearly nude and love outrageous hair' thing wardancers do which gets them compared to slayers by some ignorant humans. Humans who don't live long if both a slayer and wardancer are present to hear it.

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>>50971248

>>50971097
Even then a lot of the time you won't call up every man you are legally allowed to.

It makes your army slow and expensive to feed/transport for relatively little military gain. This is why over 25,000 men died at Towton in the Wars of the Roses, both sides went full https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrTsuvykUZk which led to lots of people being slaughtered since they could not afford modern armour like the professional soldiers.

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>>50971248
If reality manages to be consistently weirder than fantasy, I consider it to have failed.

Wardancers should look mental.

>>50971082
Thanks.

It's been so long since I played Fantasy I was afraid my interpretation wouldn't bear much resemblance to it.

>>50971410
They do. Tats, outrageous hair, ritual scarification. Costumes, too, when doing their traveling theatre troupe thing.

>>50970280
I didn't need to source anything. If there was something that needed sourcing, point as to what and I'll try to accommodate.

When someone asked if the Empire state troops were conscripts, the other "history teacher" claimed that "No, most are not". When asked for a source on it out of interest, he claimed to be a history teacher and the source himself, which isn't just ridiculous from someone claiming to be a history teacher (it's basically circular sourcing), but it's also irrelevant.

>>50971726
Yeah, I remember that my history teacher was very concerned with me having a good source whenever I talked to him about something I heard from some guy on the Internet.

>>50969576
Yeah, the imperial army as a whole is a proper clusterfuck. It's actually really sad that the fluff and depictions have been so watered down in the interest of "clarity", being "streamlined", that they're basically uniform armies pitted against eachother.

It was more fun when the imperial army really was a fucking mess, like it should be. GW seems to have completely forgotten the historicity of the setting, or simply lacking educated and interested personnel, and have confused "grimdark" and "like back then, but not" with "like today, but technologically and socially retarded, and awful, just awful".

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>>50971837
They had to take some of the sense out of it to make them seem like less of a crippled puppy vis a vis their Sonic the Hedgehog OC villain.

>>50971837
I suspect that the GW studio functions by the buddy system and that they don't hire people based on ability.

>>50972019
Yeah, and that was great when it was actually capable buddies in charge, but then the marketing department took over but the corporate culture stayed the same.

which edition of whfb do people play the most & what is its balance like?

You know, I think I kinda like this Estalian Army book online.
I'm not usually a fan of "fan-armies", but I'm a sucker for Hispanic anything.

>>50972019
I think it's the complete opposite. GW was founded on the buddy system - and it worked great because the people who built GW got their employees from their social circle, and their social circle was people who liked wargaming enough to found their own business around it.

The problems started when things got corporate. Once you starts relying on professional Human Resources Managers to find people for a creative business, you might as well just start selling furniture or clothes or any other miscellaneous shit. Because what professional HR managers are going to do to find writers is put up job listings for people with a BA in English literature and at least five years of experience in a related field (related field probably being defined as broadly as any writing job, even if its just a magazine or a advertising company). What they're not going to do is go on the GW forums, network with people there, ask if anyone's interested in a job and then get them to submit their most popular fanfiction and quiz them in the minutiae of each army's rules, models, and lore.

Ditto with financial managers and lawyers. Professional expertise is meaningless if the professional in question doesn't actually understand anything about the business that they're supposed to be advising. Sending out cease and desist letters to people who infringe on your copyright might be a perfectly rational thing to do in, say, publishing, but it's batshit insane to try to shut down fansites if you're GW.

>>50972438
Sometimes the buddies grow corrupt, too.

Loren L. Coleman over Catalyst way is one of the founding fathers of Battletech. He's also a complete dirtbag who embezzled company funds to pay for a home renovation, which meant hard-working employees got stiffed.

In Warhammer, you see lesser examples in the likes of Gav Thorpe, who has been around forever but just fucks up everything he touches these days.

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Why did he do it? What was his motive? This the most unclear thing about him.

>>50972495
Butthurt.

>>50972500
This.

Archaon turned to evil essentially in a temper tantrum. He's a truly awful character. In my own game, he was a disposable patsy, and while the End Times are coming, he was just a dumb attack animal, something to weaken the Empire while less moronic minds slip in the knife.

>>50972530
Hey, Hitler kicked off WW2 because he was butthurt about WW1. Butthurt can be a very strong drive to be an asshole.

>>50972574
>Hitler kicked off WW2 because he was butthurt about WW1
If that is what you truly believe, then you are beyond saving. Hitler did practically everything he could to avoid a European war, while preparing for an inevitable war with the Soviet Union.

>>50972623
>Hitler did practically everything he could to avoid a European war
>Hey let me annex all these countries despite Britain and France specifically telling me not to

>>50972495
He found out that all gods are Chaos Gods, and all divine magic used by priests flow from the same source as sorcery, the Realm of Chaos.

To put that into perspective, there was a story that involved a Witch Hunter. He was gravely injured, over half of his body was burned horribly and his lungs were scorched. He was in absolute agony and was unable to use any of his prayers to heal himself, and when a wizard said he could use his magic to ease the pain the Witch Hunter flat out refused saying 'No magic!". He was willing to die in horrible pain than 'succumb' to the powers of Chaos, not knowing he'd been using it the whole time. Now imagine he found out the truth, that he'd been living and enforcing a lie his whole life.

>>50972623
>how to be called a retarded bait 101 the post

>>50972495
Archaon's birth-mother was named Viktoria Rothschild. Make of that what you will, but I say that it's no surprise that he grew up to be a selfish bastard that infiltrated a religion and was bent on world domination.

>>50972678
A lot of people say a lot of things. You're not going to get anywhere with that attitude. All "annexations" were either peaceful mergers (Austria, Sudetenland) or to protect the countries at their request (Czechia, Slovakia). Meanwhile, Churchill's war guarantee to Poland was unsolicited and unnecessary, and only guaranteed that attacks on Germans stepped up and forced a war that could've easily been avoided.

>>50946399
5th was completely retarded due to heroes and magic items enabling some fucked up shit. Also high fly was dumb.

>>50972786
Yep, this is bait.

>>50972684
It's not a lie, though, it's just not the whole truth. In a wider sense, the realization could be very different. That being said, there's several half-truths that could be interpreted in a very, very bad way for a believer that finds out the "whole truth", but not all of it.

So the reaction could be considered quite reasonable, either by your interpretation, or by the interpretation that if there's no difference, then what does it matter at all? So fuck it, Chaos, hoooooooooooo!

>>50972831
Nope, just the truth. This >>50972574 is bait. And it worked.

>>50972786
>>50972855

Everyone knew those were bait the moment you posted them.

>>50972855

You are making a joke of yourself now, anon

>>50972843
Considering he was a Templar, I'd say that what he was taught was the truth as far as the temple knew it, or would allow its members to know. If he'd been fighting against Chaos his whole life only to find out that the gods he believed in and the divine magic he used was part of the Enemy, that'd be enough to shatter someone. Maybe not to the same extent as Archaon, but he had the will to go out and do something about it.

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>>50972874
Call it bait all you want, it's still the truth. I was baited, though, I confess. It's hard to tell common ignorance from bait, sometimes.

>>50972876
Absolutely, I'm just saying that he probably didn't see the whole picture. If he had, then he'd realize that it's a bit more complicated than "Everything is Chaos, Chaos is evil, ergo everything is evil, so I might as well be evil".

But that makes sense from an in-universe perspective. He'd basically have to be an outside observer to see the whole picture, and enough people have issues with that in the real world, already, even when they have access to all the pieces.

So I personally don't find Archaon's mind being shattered odd or his motivations flawed. He recognized that the Realms of Chaos is infinite and that all the mysteries stem from there, and he went out there and served what he now recognized as the objectively greatest power of which everything else is a part, even if it's separate, likely in an effort to become greater than them in time.

He might even have had noble intentions at first, but everything I know leads me to believe that Archaon always was a bit of a shit, so in losing the target painted on the head of Chaos and his faith in Sigmar, he probably lost most of his way right then and there, because his motivation was never to do good, really, it was just about bring evil unto evil.

I could be wrong, of course, I haven't actually read the Archaon book myself.

>>50973116
I'm going from pre-8th edition/ET fluff.

It's possible that he didn't get the whole truth, as that's how I see prophecy anyway. Some guy says a prophecy that this will happen or that race will win, but it's just some guy. Even if he's right some, or even most, of the time, doesn't mean he's right all of the time. Archaon just happened to believe this prophecy and set out to make it true. Then he lost at Middenheim. Oops.

>>50969959
To be fair wardancers never looked good.

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>>50972495
What broke him the most is the fact that his god didn't answer his prayer when he needed him the most. Archaon was the most devout and faithful servant of Sigmar and this counted for nothing. A life of service and devotion meant nothing. Archaon was fooled to wasting his life on the lie known as Sigmar. He strove to wake up everyone to that lie ever since.

Chaos was just the means for him to do that.

Is there actually any fluff from 8'th edition that is an improvement on anything?

>>50973375
>god didn't personally answer to ME

>that means I get to kill EVERYONE

cheer up, emo kid

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>>50973625
Nope, it all went down the shitter to accommodate End Times. Instead of changing their story to fit the setting they changed the setting to fit their story. 8th was a giant failure from beginning to end.

>>50972391
its pretty meh.
The best thing to come out of it was cataph's mod.
Now I can roleplay Alatrieste against chaos units.

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>>50972495
>grows faithful
>has crisis of beliefs
>everything he thought true is wrong
>everything he thought foul is true
>reads the prophecy about himself
>starts believing in the prophecy
>falls in the claws of the bielieves-fueled chaos
>becomes a puppet of a self fulfilling curse
>deceives himself that what he's doing is right despite being foul because he believes what's true is the only right in the end
>tries to find consolation in the fact that his job is also about ending what's foul
>develops a hatred for the deceitful concept of godly entities
>ends considering "gods" as just another kind of being constrained by their own disillusions of freedom and that he alone is truly free because he is walking his path of truth "willingly"

>disregards the irony of doing exactly what led him to a crisis of faith to begin with: blindly follow a book

>>50973375
https://youtu.be/jZ_dIrlBOio

>>50973720
So Archaon read the End Times fluff and he threw a tantrum?

>>50972438
A lot of the problems come from self referencing and not actually knowing the source material.

So originally you had several guys who fleshed things out based on a wide range of sources, history, multiple fantasy worlds, etc.

Now you have people who grew up with GW and then just reference the reference without sampling a wide variety of material, both relevant and not and coming up with something new.

Plus y'know, orders to SELL EVERYTHING DO NOT CREATE IT IF WE CAN'T PRICE IT.

>>50973808
>>The Old World? Gone?
>>For golden Space Marines!?
Can you blame him?

>>50972468
Gav isn't corrupt.

He's just shit and always has been. He also has no other marketable skills so he's very much a yes-man.

>>50948721
Arent ungors like sneaky/dextrous why not make an ungor assassin

>>50973870
>hooves

>>50948898
Yes but with orks
Goddamn i love grimgor

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>>50973625
I liked myself the little additional events and locations added, for the largest part it was left unexplored, but they gave the feeling that the world is bigger and more varied than what it looked like.

it's the sense of absurd scale that makes warhammer for me and the 8th edition had it.

>>50973650
If the holiest man in existence cannot hope to saved by his god, then there is no point in faith, love, and even existence itself.

Every man is living a lie and at some level they understand that and they suffer for it. This must end.

A world where Chaos are the only true gods is not fit for mankind or any other race.

>>50974052
the holiest man would consider absence of aid as a test or a necessity

faith is not about getting something back for being a good goy

>>50974106
Then he failed, like Mallobaude.

>>50974121
yes, he did

>>50973375
Basically like Jesus in Drifters?

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>>50973825
Thinking about it, what other fantasy setting should warhammer have taken inspiration from in addition to the initial influences?

>>50974052
The idea that only the big four are real gods was a mistake.

>>50974121
Mallobaude succeeded.

He just saw past the masquerade when he drank from the Grail.

And he DID drink, Barony of the Damned is explicit about that. Were he still wanting, it would've killed him outright.

It's hilarious, but Mallobaude is WAY more interesting than Archaon the Nuthin Personnel despite us knowing NOTHING about him.

>>50974391
the idea that the big 4 are the only true gods is a misunderstood one

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>>50974398
Or so he says. We have only Mallobaude's account that he drank from the Grail, and not some deception made to test his piety.

I've mentioned this in previous threads, which is that I believe that there was one final test to see if he was humble, dedicated to the cause and willing to accept something less than victory. Since he didn't get anything right away he felt he had been cheated and went on to raise an army to topple the Bretonnian order of things and disband the cult of the Lady. Had he been a righteous man he would have continued his quest, even if he knew in his heart that he would never see the true Grail. It's literally stated to be that way for some men in the Bretonnian army book that there are Questing Knights who go their entire lives searching. They dream the impossible dream.

But that's just how I interpret it, which is likely the way it's supposed to go down as a GM. You have to find a reason to suit your story depending on your style of GMing.

>>50974106
Except it really was that one time he needed his God the most.

>>50968500
Probably comes from the idea of feudal responsibilities of a lord, since most of the time they have to bring a certain amount of soldiers when called by the king to war. Levies or fyrds or bans of untrained conscripts and militias did exist, but they were more to back up professional troops like huscarls and men-at-arms and provide more numbers, since there were rarely enough professional soldiers (though this of course depended on the time period and the region - some areas of Europe were exposed to fighting very often, so even levies had some experience.)

>>50974463
is there some in-setting reason for why the empire doesn't also have pegasi cavalry?

>>50974537
and in needing him he didn't have faith.

>>50974542
I think they're on the wrong side of the Grey Mountains, which are not an easy thing to cross. I also think that if there are known aeries then the Bretonnians would regularly patrol them to prevent Imperial's stealing foals so as to deny them flying cavalry. They may be allies on and off, but they probably wouldn't want to give up one of their major advantages in the form of the RAF.

>>50974463
>Or so he says. We have only Mallobaude's account that he drank from the Grail, and not some deception made to test his piety.

Barony of the Damned isn't written from his perspective. He doesn't even appear as a statted character in it. The semi-omniscient narrator says he drank from the Grail.

>>50974788
>>The only certainty, as Mallobaude himself tells it, is that he eventually came to rest on the edge of the Forest of Arden.

Narrator or not, it specifically states that Mallobaude was the one who tells his version of what went down. It's purposely vague so that you as the GM can decide what really happened should your players meet the Black Knight and have the opportunity to speak with him as friend or foe.

What should I build my unassembled models as?

I found a mess of Skaven models NiB that I purchased at the beginning of 8th edition hidden away in a closet. Going through them made me really want to finish the army, but the game is no longer being updated. How should I assemble them in this case? Does armament even matter?

>>50974880
Depends on what you want to use them for. If you're still interested in finding a group that plays WFHB then weapons matter. If just for painting them for display, then it doesn't. Personally I have some Skaven that I use for WFRP and I mix and match the weapons and shields so that there are different kinds of Clanrats and Slaves to fight and that my players can see what foe they're facing based on what the model is armed with.

>>50974052
That mostly sounds something like a pretentious edgy bitch would say.
Which I guess Archaeon is, so it fits.

>>50974378
I dunno, liberally mixing Moorcock with the D&D-inspired fantasy races was a good move already and anything else would just kinda clash with it.

>>50972495
Because Bel'akor kept on rebooting history until he did it lol

But seriously, if you ignore that stupid bullshit, other anons have more or less said it. He lost his faith due to a mix of circumstances, not least of all his shitty life and learning that the faith he had believed in so strongly to help make his shitty life better was a lie.

>>50975451
I don't think Be'lakor rebooting history every time Archaon died was a thing until 8'th.

>>50975501
It wasn't. Like just about everything else, 8th and End Times ruined everything.

Be'lakor used to be an example of why siding with Chaos was a bad thing. He was one of the greatest champions it ever had, and he thought so himself. His pride was his downfall and no matter what he accomplished he was still a slave and was held to the whims of the dark gods. He was the first ever daemon prince and Tzeentch cursed him to crown the mortal champions because he was a dick. Now he's got time travel powers which basically throws the rules out the goddamn window, and Warhammer is a setting that is based a lot in rules, why things work, why people are the way they are, why history is important, etc.

>>50975568
I think he part I like the least about Be'lakor is that they decided that he is canonically and rulevise the only Undivided daemon prince in both the games.

It fucks with my ability to make a more personal army that's all about my dudes.

>>50974788
It also says "this is basically what he claims right now and nobody really has any ability to verify anything he says". In addition it gives a potential explanation that he was just delusional it was all in his head.
Given when Barony of the Damned was made, I do think that your interpretation is meant to be the correct one, but seeing as damn near all "new" fluff in that period was utter horseshit that tried it's damnedest to turn Fantasy into 40k on some level I generally just ignore it.

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>>50975666
Why did you have to remind me? REEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>>50975666
That's thing about fictional universes, there's not really anything stopping you from picking and choosing what's canon and what isn't as what's canon changes from book to book. You have stupid shit like Caledor the Conqueror ruling for 2000(!) years which is contradicted in the very same book. There are some good instances of fluff, and some really, really bad ones. Just pick and choose since the writers were never brought together to collaborate their projects.

Personally I still keep the Undivided thing around as my WFRP canon is based on the 6th edition fluff.

>>50975728
>It also says "this is basically what he claims right now and nobody really has any ability to verify anything he says".

Absolutely, you're correct. The book presents several alternatives to explain why he saw what he saw when he sipped from the Grail, but whether or not he drank from it is NOT one of them.

I mean, if you wanna do that in your own game, I'm not going to gainsay anyone for doing that. In my game, Archaon died a sniveling coward begging for his life, and Be'lakor was annihilated. I just wanted to point out, canonically, that Mallobaude got his sip.

But honestly, Mallobaude's rebellion was really poorly handled - all but ignored, in fact - and so the canon version barely matters.

>>50972229
6e and T9A. Both because they are balanced.

>>50972391
Estalian DoW on eBay right now. Some guy dumped his DoW collection methinks.

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>>50975855
>>but whether or not he drank from it is NOT one of them.
BotD says it's his word. As there's no third person view story recounting how Mallobaude drank from the Grail, the only account of him drinking from it is his own. Who's to say it was the true Grail, or if he drank from "a Grail" at all? For all we truly know he could have been questing for years and with no end in sight he gave up, became bitter and decided to rebel against the system.

>>50972495
Zealot who found out he was wrong.

Discovered a prophesy he can't escape from says he is the most evil person ever. The kind of prophesy where if he sits down and refuses to budge until he dies it will say he sat down but could never die and it was another sign he was the most evil person ever.

Nobody wants or likes him despite how much he is willing to do in order to be literally anyone else.

Found out his fathet was one of the enemies of everything he believed in.

Finally he found out he literally can't die because the true most evil asshole will literally reset time until he decides to be evil, like a video game where you can fiddle around all you like but the only way to progress is to follow the story.

All of it left him hating everyone and everything.

So Archaon is the embodiement of railroading and how it affects players.

>>50975839
Sure. I just think it was a very pointless addition to the fluff and the games.

>>50973116
I don't feel like digging for facts to counter your arguments, because you'll just make something up to avoid admitting that you're wrong, so I'll just call you an ignorant retard who knows nothing about history, since you can't really argue against that.

>>50976106
GW and common sense don't really go hand in hand.

What's your favourite province of the Empire and why is it Norldand?

>>50975666
Does anybody really pay attention to that? Especially in 40k, it's contradicted with several examples of Undivided primarchs and princes.

Does the 3rd edition RPG torrent still work?

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>>50975957
I believe there have been some cases where vampires trick Questing Knights with false grails, and I know there's at least one short story where a knight barely survives an encounter with a foul monster with some sort of glamour to make it appear like The Lady.

>>50976591
It's possible as Maldred claimed to have been gifted the Grail by the Lady, during the Affair of the False Grail. The Fey Enchantress was missing and the Grail Knights were searching for her, so no one could refute Maldred's claim. There was also no king at the time.

>>50976529
Eh, Carnac cares, but no one cares about Carnac.

>>50976645
Fey Enchantress was missing because Maldred and Malfleur or whatever her name was had her poisoned then imprisoned in the Dungeon of Dol when she visited Mousillon. They then claimed she had deserted the King.

>>50976746
I know, I mentioned it because Maldred was able to parade around with his false Grail for so long because no one was around to call it out for the fraud it was. There was no king as she crowned the Questing Knight who rescued her, who then led the war against Mousillon.

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Is there demi-plate in WFB? I don't remember seeing it - it usually seems to be either a breastplate or full armor.

>>50976981
I think that the Emoire Greatswords are rocking that style.

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>>50976981
Greatswords wear that, as they have to buy their own armour with their double pay. Bretonnian knights run the gamut from mail hauberks to transitional plate to full plate in some cases.

>>50977020
I think some poorer ones even rock mostly boiled leather.

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>>50976981

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>>50977359

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>>50977410

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>>50977452

>>50976239
>I don't feel like digging for facts
Well, obviously, because you'd have to dig pretty damn deep to engineer some "facts". I wouldn't mind admitting I'm wrong, but thankfully, I don't have to.

Also, your mum's a whore.

>>50974378
>what other fantasy setting should warhammer have taken inspiration from in addition to the initial influences?

What others are there, or were there at the time? I would say Song of Ice and Fire and other "harder" fantasy, but that wasn't really around back then.

Same for anything written by Nick Perumov, aside from the whole multiverse thing he's got going, I don't think that would've fitted into Warhammer.

>>50974378
Might have managed to slide some more science-fantasy in there. There used to be a stronger connection to Warhammer 40k, and including more of that as an explanation for magic or certain artifacts would've made the setting feel a little deeper - though it would have messed with the essential tone of it, because every time you go 'magic is psuedo-science' it gets harder to justify.

>>50977952
Yeah, I've always liked the idea that The Old World is really just a feudal planet with remnants of Dark Age of Technology tech, and suffering a Chaos invasion.

The sad thing is that it would've been really cool, but would've required a tighter rein on the fluff to avoid it spinning off into sci-fi as "secrets" are "revealed", which would've inevitably been cringe-worthy.

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>>50958965
excellent. This is just the sort of shit I want to read now that I'm playing Vampire Counts in warhammer total war

Are there any novels written from the perspective of the Vampire Counts? Seems like all the official literature is mostly Empire, with a few elves, brettonnians and chaos books around.

>>50978449
Personally I like them being connected through a multiverse. Separate but sometimes colliding like a Chaos Champion in WFRP getting a chainsword. Similar but with differences like Slaanesh's birth in 40k whereas he always existed along with his brothers in Fantasy.

>>50978530
Not exactly a Vampire Count, but necromancers count right? In the Black Plague series there are chapters dedicated to Vanhal, a former priest of Morr who became a necromancer to talk to his former lover. I won't spoil it if you haven't read it, but it's a great read. But it also has a lot of other stuff going on like Skaven and Mandred of Middenheim, and Boris Goldgather, and so on.

>>50978530
genevieve undead +Ulrikas series are the only ones I know of anon

>>50978576
okay, thanks. I might look that up.

>>50978588
yeah, that occurs to me now. Although Genevieve, while a vampire, doesn't really have much to do with the vampire counts as a faction.

>>50973625
The Elf pantheonic mandala and the collected languages. Also all the flags and heraldry being shown.

>>50974378
More Hobbit.

>>50978449
I never liked that and think it would have been worse than End Times, but to each his own.

>>50978639
Only read Bloodborn. The rest of Ulrika sucks, she goes back to being a terrible Twilight/Fifty Shades character. Bloodborn is the only book where she can fuck up and learn instead of fucking up and being justified.

Genevieve is great. But its a product of early lore, and the writer owns her so its more his character guest starring in Warhammer like Batman fighting Predator.

Ushoran, Neferata, W'soran, and Vlad all have their own books. That's pretty much the quality from best to worst too.

>>50978914
>>Ushoran
No wonder. Probably the only nice guy out of the whole bunch, as even Abhorash was more of a hardline honour bound guy than genuinely concerned with the well being of others.

>>50978949
Yeah. His book is about him returning from the edge of grief-induced madness when some Empire troops are basically enacting the final solution against Strigany AKA Gypsies.

He tears them limb from limb like a monster then behaves like a lord despite his monstrous form to the Strigany and begins his plan to gather them all back and rebuild Mourkain.

But they never went back to the story. Next we saw was in End Times when he's King Lear the outlaw, teleporting around reality itself like Kaldor Draigo and spreading madness like airborn AIDS.

>>50978914
>>50978576
how does the quality stack up compared to >>50958965 ? Which ones are above it in terms of quality and which are below it? Because if they're only as good or worse than a random piece of internet fiction, that's seems like a good place to draw the line.

>>50979024
Goddamnit End Times, can't you do anything right?

>>50979040
I haven't read Voyage of the Damned but the Black Plague is one of my favourite Warhammer novel series. I don't think there was anything about it that I hated or disliked, as there were a few parts in the War of Vengeance that made me scratch my head or made me put down the book in frustration. WoV was still a great series, same with Nagash and Sigmar. The only series I had major issues with was the Sundering, as while it did have some good characters and moments the lore was buttfucked by 8th edition and also had some moments so bad I would have laughed if it didn't make me so angry. I also skipped an entire chapter because it was so mindnumbingly dumb.

Basically what I'm saying is Time of Legends is good, but you better have a lot of patience for Sundering. I'm a very patient guy and I was losing it during parts of it.

>>50978449
Do you mean like the inhabitants of the planet discovering the wider galaxy? There's no need for that, assuming no galactic people come through. They barely seem to have charted the planets of their galaxy, and anything sci-fi enough is going to seem like magic anyway, so it's not like anything is going to be revealed.

They can especially control it if they imply the golden age was when most people actually had advanced tech, and knowledge and technology has been decaying ever since, to the point where it's barely even present anymore.

>>50979114
Ushoran wasn't in ET at all.

His book retconned him from dying to Orcs back to life. Everyone thought that since he wasn't in anything afterwards that it was one of those odd books like Sons Of Ellyrion that was written by a writer creating a new continuity.

Then suddenly he appears in AoS.

I mean, they kimd of ruined him but at the same time they at least made it canon that the only named Strigoi didn't die in the same story that introduced the Strigoi in the first place.

>>50979024
I really hated what they did to the Strigoi in AoS. Sure, the models are kind of cool, but the madness wasn't the point as much as the remnants of dignity they did have and what they had lost.

File: aekold2.jpg (82KB, 590x575px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 590x575px

Is Tzeentch widely worshiped beyond sorcerers? He always seems rather one-note.

>>50980450
Politicians and anyone wanting a leg up using their wits pray to him.

>>50976529
Cite a single Undivided Daemon Prince3 in 40K 6th and fantasy 8th ED.

You can't, can you? All you have is old lore saying that Lorgar and Pert are Undivided. Lore older than Be'lakor's dataslate.

>>50980768
For 40k, there's 'The Horned God' in an Imperial Armor volume from 2011, Kor Megron in the 6th ed. Rulebook, and Xogar in the 7th ed. Grey Knights book - ignoring a few from novels, like M'kar and Ingethel. WFB, I honestly can't think of one that wasn't just in an old novel or something.

>>50981213
>'The Horned God' in an Imperial Armor volume from 2011

Started out as a singular daemon daemon prince before striking out on his own.

>Kor Megron
>Xogar
>M'kar and Ingethel

Nothing saying there are Undivided.

>>50981282
they're*

>>50981282
But they aren't aligned to any specific god, therefore what else could they be?