Warhammer 40k general

First for speculate on these: Special rules with names like “The Butcher’s Nails”, “Many Heads of the Hydra” and “Iron Within, Iron Without” bring the well-loved background of the Heretic Astartes to life, and will be available to any detachment or formation pledged to the appropriate Legion (much like their loyalist brethren have access to Space Marine Chapter Tactics).

Without shitposting about how it'll be copy paste loyalist stuff.

First for Dark Eldar

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>>50458396

Third for Taurox with wheels

>>50458408
>bringing up this skubtastic topic at the literal beginning of the thread
>beating DEposter to do it

Welp, I'll see you guys next thread, enjoy your shitstorm.

>>50458408

GW could do that and loyalist son of bitches would praise GW

>>50458415
Now that is an APC

>>50458415
It looks okay but then I look at the autocannons and the exhaust pipes and remember it's still a piece of shit. If I get one of these I'm putting it on wheels, putting the secondary guns on the turrret, and doing fucking something with those pipes.

>>50458408
You know how the thousands sons have their thing where you are only allowed to take their characters and there is the incredibly specific buff of blessings grant +1 to invul? It is literally just going to be some more minor things like that

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>>50458408

>Night Lords get Fear

>>50458409

oh you tried good job friend

Speaking of Deldar was kind of disappointed today, went into my local hobby shop and they were all out of scourges.

So I got a venom instead, probably am going to need a few of those anyway

>>50458482
Fear, stealth, hit&run.

>>50458408
Emperor's Children get Sonic weapons (Doom sirens, etc.) available as equipment on their lords.
All of the must take MoS and VotL (like 1kSons)
The effect Slaanesh models have on Eldar.
Artifact: Blissgiver from 5e.

>>50458482
That gondola is adorable.

>>50458493

>having any DE in stores at all

I'm jelly, man. I had to order mine from a store an hour away for 25% off. I need at least another Venom, but I'm thinking about a 3rd SC! Box because of how cheap it is.

I still have to assemble/paint what I have, though. Ugh

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>>50458468

>>50458525
SC box is a great value, but more than 2 Archons is unneccesary. Sell the 3rd arhcon for some extra dosh.

Just scored some Kasrkin, gonna run them as Scions (obviously). The sergeant's sword is hopelessly mangled so I'll have to snip it off and replace it, should I go with another power weapon or just a chainsword?

I've decided I'm going to buy 2 Start Collecting! Dark Eldar boxes. Then once I get that shit painted I'll get 2 Venom, 2 Talos boxes, a Haemy, and some stuff to convert a few Grotesques.

I don't really have anything to add to the topic I'm just pretty excited. I guess I also wanted to see if my fellow DE bros have any advice on whether my plan is retarded

I've actually been planning the fluff for my kabal for months now but I was hesitant to start DE and get BTFO every time I played a game. I've overcome that now though. I just want to paint cool spiky pirate rape drug elves.

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Does anyone have any good ideas for some blue/brimstone horror conversions?

>>50458549

Yes.

>>50458549
Should have bought them from GW, dude.

>>50458525

I Fucking HATE the Archon, was just going to convert a fantasy dark elf fleet captain into one when I get the money after christmas.

I love the box set though just finished building mine last week, might buy one more but dont really want to go full raider spam.

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Space wolves BTFO

>>50458562
I would have but I only found out about the made to order thing like a week too late. Ebay was my only choice. I actually did pretty well, got them cheaper than new and the model in question was the only real defect

>>50458552

Why are you buying two venoms without any troops to fill them with?

>>50458593
space wolves have a codex that isn't shit

>>50458553
No. Fuck you.

>>50458607
That sounds pretty good then.

>>50458549
Power weapons are trash on scions. Chainsword.

>>50458610
not original anon but because they look cool duh

>>50458552

Tell me bout your Kabal

also what are you using for grotesques?

>>50458415
How do people feel about using these to transport veterans as opposed to Chimeras? I mean, if you want meltavets at the midfield, then this thing is cheaper, gets an autocannon, never gets stuck in terrain, and has extra exit points.

Is the +1 front armor and a second gun that will likely be firing snapshots at cruising speed really better than all that AND the extra ten points (assuming you spring for smoke launchers).

>>50458553
>blue
Paint pink horrors blue
>brimstone
put some fire looking stuff on a base

>>50458610

So I can do this:
Archon + Grotesques in Raider #1
10 Warriors in Raider #2
5 Warriors in Venom
5 Warriors in Venom
Dark Artisan
2x 3 Reavers

>>50458629
I'm sorry you hate fun anon.

>>50458682
AV11 makes them too fragile for my liking.

>>50458663
Not him, but I plan on buying some Crypt Fiends/Crypt Flayers and slapping on some of my Cronos/Talos bits from when I built my Dark Artisan.

>>50458682
AV 11 makes them vulnerable to S5 shooting.

Should I magnetize the Burst Cannons on my Crisis Suits? I've NEVER used them and I've never seen anyone run them.

>>50458561
Yeah thanks mate
>>50458641
Will do, cheers anon

>>50458693
>>I spend two hours pouring free shit onto the table until you lose
>>fun

>>50458721
Only if you have the opportunity for casual games and still want to spam suits.

>>50458693
No. See, I like fun. That's the issue.

>>50458734
>Daemons
>Must plan to spam the everloving crap out of them.
Every time, never change.

>>50458739
I only own 6 suits, but even then, I already have plenty of S5 AP5 shooting from my Fire Warriors, Hammerhead, and Stealth Suits.

>>50458753
And we really only play "casual-competitive" in my friend group.

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>>50458457
The exhausts are retarded, either shave down the bracing on the front edge of the side door and put a big rig style shrouded exhaust there, or a more standard underside exhaust like you see on commercial trucks would fit neatly under the footplate of the door.
>pic related

>>50458750
Even 4 units of new horrors is almost endless tide of models that you cant kill.

>>50458767
Yeah, just have the crisis do literally anything else.

>>50458663

Crypt Horrors with extra bits from the 2 Talos boxes

Also basically I rolled some silly stuff on the 1d4chan Kabal Creation Table and tried to run with it. tl;dr
>Kabal of the Endless Rain
Background
>Arose from the merger of two kabals; the first the broken but proud remnant of a Commorrite noble house, the second the owners of a considerable realspace fleet, banished from the Dark City by the Overlord himself. When the noble-descended kabal went broke, they retained their prime real estate space. Eventually they negotiated a deal wherein the space-bound kabal would merge into theirs, outwardly remaining the same, but inwardly reflecting a radically unusual leadership structure: there are two head Archons, one who sits on the Throne of Storms at the top of the kabal's tower, managing their new-found fleet, and the other who sits on the Drowned Throne beneath the tower, managing basically everything else
The name
>Long before they came to Commorragh, the noble family traced their history to an ancient Eldar hero. This hero lived on a world in the process of colonization, before the coming of the Eldar Empire. The legend states that some foul sorcery clouded the sky and brought with it 100 days and nights of torrential rain. Each night, creatures appeared in the darkness and attacked the Eldar colonists, terrorizing them until the sun came up. After the first night, the hero took up arms and fought back. For 99 nights he protected the colonists, and then the storm receded. The nobles still told this story when they established their dominion in Commorragh, but as the Dark Kin tend to do, they twisted and inverted it. Over time, the story came to mean that the family had terrorized their weaker cousins during a massive storm, attacking every night for 100 days and returning to Commorragh with a massive treasure in slaves and goods.
>When Vect b& noble houses they took the name of their kabal from this story

>>50458415
Why would you use rubber tires in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium?

Feel free to hate the treads but they match the aesthetic of 40k, this just looks out of place considering the fact that literally no other IG vehicles have wheels.

>>50458553
Brimstone horror = doom lost soul

Greenstuff some flames on a skull

>>50458704
>>50458720
True, but is it really that difficult to get a flank shot on a chimera? Especially one thats making for the middle of the board? I ask because I'm reaching the 1000 points mark where transports stop being an option and more of a necessity.

>>50458611
Thousand sons have a planet that isn't completely fucked and a primarch

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>>50458814

Stupid idiot

>>50458803
Well shit, I might as well just glue on 1 Fusion, 1 Plasma, and then Missile pod on the shoulder and save myself the trouble of magnets. I never use flamers either.

>>50458827

He just made the list.

>>50458801
>Even 1/6 of the army being pinks makes too many blues -> brims.

>>50458538
Does VotLW from the sorcerer in a squad of tzangoors mean 5++ birdmen?

>>50458824
the planet of sorcerers was completely fucked by the rubric, and having magnus isn't exactly something to be listed as a positive

NOT having their retard primarch around is arguably a point in the wuffs favor

>>50458750
Im not mad at you, maybe your meta is stronger than mine, maybe you keep your power level low, but I've not had fun fighting 2++ rerollable horror blobs already, so this addition feels like even less fun.

>>50458835
I usually squad up multiple units with different gear, if you do this you will likely confuse and annoy people. (also its a super easy magnet job)

>>50458865

I believe it only affects the sorcerer himself.

Hello all, wanting to get into 40k and Dark Angels look cool, as well as their lore interesting me.

Are they any good/fun compared to the other armies? And is spamming plasma something I can do or will it lable me That Guy?

>>50458824
Not for long with said planet being very much accessible to the imperium now. It is definitely very possible it will get fucked over in the near future

t. thousand sons player

>>50458823
It is if you run your Chimeras in pairs like you should be doing and fan them out in V shapes.

>>50458859
>kill a unit
>lmao no you didn't, here's a bigger unit that therefore gives me more warp charges to zap shit with and isn't meaningfully worse than the unit you killed
If you can't see the problem you're part of the problem

>>50458889
Welcome to Chaos, brother!

>>50458874
Always treat top tier armies like top tier, and don't kit 'em up vs weaker books. I've never been in a meta not like this idfk.

>>50458859
At 1500, thats 27 models of pinks, 54 blues and 54 brimstones. Total of 135 models. For 250pts.

And they all shoot with heavybolter + some other potentially powerful shot. Or summon stuff.

>>50458913
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE DARK ANGELS ARE THE MOST LOYAL OF ALL LOYAL FACTIONS.

>>50458827
That's Forgeworld crap, not a GW codex model. Try again.

>>50458924
Of course we are. ;-)

>>50458814

>no other IG vehicles have wheels

There are Imperial Guard rough riders that had, and might still have, a biker model as I recall.

>>50458913
Kek.

I actually don't mind these jokes.

Now get in the sack, 'brother'.

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>>50458813
That's a fucking cool backstory. I just ran with the Black Heart Kabal paint scheme, but if I feel up to writing a 2nd chunk of fluff for an army I might make them "copycats" or a wannabe Kabal or a splinter Kabal or something.. Here's my recently finished Venom. I intentionally left the gunner off because she went through 2 stripping sessions and didn't end up too well.

>>50458956
poor gunner

>>50458889
There's so much worse shit you could spam than plasma. Like grav, and bikes, and relentless grav bikes. Plasma at least has a chance to blow up.

Plasma is cool. Plasma is flavorful. Spam plasma. It's okay.

>>50458956
Was it really humid or too cold when you sprayed that? Or did you just spray primer straight over the original paint? Looks lumpy as fuck.

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>>50458925
Good thing you posted that Anon, for a minute there I thought you were actually retarded and not just baiting.

>>50458918
Again, who the fuck actual plans to run that many?
Going agro b/c people want to run (model) something, because you can spam it is just being a pain.

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>>50458925

The state of you lad

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>>50458970
>"Archon, do you love me?"
>"Be strong, Claryxxa, be strong for mother."

>>50458980
I don't know if it was too humid or not, but the Army Painter Primer I originally used messes up like that every time I spray with it. I found a Rustoleum one that goes on SUPER fucking flat instead. I did a coat of Abbadon black over the primer, so it accentuated the bumps.

>>50458827
>>50458997
I'm curious, has any recaster had the idea of making a billion copies of the Tauros wheels and selling them individually?

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>>50458973
Ah, cool.

I was thinking about doing the Consecrators since they look cool, and what they have regarding their fluff is also cool. The Betrayal at Calth set also look perfect for them as well since fluff-wise they don't have any MkVII or MkVIII armor.

Though, that gives me the problem regarding some of the Dark Angel vehicles that have MkVII marines operating them.

Also, does anyone have a higher quality version of this pic?

>>50458544

It's even better for $64 with free shipping, which is why I'm planning on getting another.

As for the Archon, I was probably going to convert it into something. Hell, if I get enough, they make for decent Trueborn.

>>50458586

Yea. Edgy McAnimesmirk is a bit of a shit.

I like Raiders more than I like Venoms, and now that the FAQ happened, Raiders are actually usable again.

I also love Wyches and wanted to focus more on a Wych cult, but they need some love to be anything more than ablative wounds for my Succubus. Or so I'm told 27n still haven't played yet.

>>50458995
Have you seen normal CD lists? 4 units of 10 horrors is actually very common. They are great backfield objective holders.

And now they are even better at it.

>>50458956

Thanks anon!

Your Venom looks great. I will be amazed if mine come anywhere close to that, to be honest. I'm not very good at painting, which is too bad since DE have such beautiful models.

>>50458891
Rip in peace Planet of Sorcerers. Goodnight, sweet daemon prince.

t. Thousand Sons fan

>>50459062
>Competitive 40k
>won't just have other top tier lists with plenty of large blasts to deal with it

>It's common, but I'm mad someone wants advice on modeling them.

How was your day today?

Sorry about the link http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/11/40k-8th-ed-rumors-primarch-schism.html

Thoughts?

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So, Thousand Sons.

Massive psychic firepower, big invuln saves on everything, but very elite army with low model count.

The invuln saves mean that AP3/2/1 weapons are not worth their points against Thousand Sons, but the lol23pointsperMEQ means they die to massed small arms fire. They might take a casualty or two from an overcharging riptide, but will die just as easily to half that many points worth of genestealer cultists with lasguns and heavy stubbers.

A possible solution to the problem with Thousand Sons, then, is to find a way to counter large masses of cheap infantry. Thousand Sons can take warpflamers now, but must get within rapid fire range of the enemy to use them. There are other anti-infantry units available to CSM, though, that can eliminate the hordes for relatively cheap to put your good stuff on an equal footing with the enemy.

I think Thousand Sons might not be quite as terrible if they play to their strengths(psychic powers and invuln saves) and take a squadron of Autocannon+Heavy Bolter+Havoc Launcher predators, or even cheaper, three Quad Heavy Bolter Rapier field guns(if you have a CAD). Alternatively they can ally/summon deep striking Flamers of Tzeentch, or deep strike 3 man Terminator squads with combi-flamers. Thoughts?

>>50459104
I'm gonna say no, because Atia's said the Black Crusade is lasting a long time, with the next Daemon Primarch coming in 2018 at least.

I doubt the Black Crusade will be over before the Primarchs and D Primarchs we've heard about come back.

>>50459104
>Thoughts?

>It's BoLS
>anonymous source
Not even worth discussing.

>>50459131
If they take infantry hordes to bury the Rubrics in cheap firepower a Defiler will have an absolute fucking field day.

>>50459131
Well they're also going to struggle against Vehicles. Witchfires aren't going to be quite reliable enough.

>>50459032
None that I know of.
Not like wheels like those are hard to get though, there's always some from various third party bits sites. Ramshackle is especially great if you want tons of super cheap vehicle bits that smell like shit and have a ton of thick flash (aka, you're a poor sod that play Orks).

>>50459131
It's just a shame the birdmen aren't cheaper. Fielding hordes of them is gonna be expensive.

would it make sense "lore wise" for the Disciples of Caliban to have a caesteus assault ram?

Hey guys. Struggling to make a good ig and space wolf list. How do you think this will preform?

++ Allied Detachment (Space Wolves: Codex (2014) v2003) ++

+ HQ +
Iron Priest [Bolter, Thunder Hammer]

+ Elites +
···Dreadnought [Blizzard Shield, Dreadnought, Fenrisian Great Axe, Smoke Launchers]
···Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

+ Troops +
····Grey Hunters [9x Close Combat Weapon, Wolf Standard]
······7 Grey Hunters [Bolt Pistol, Bolter]
······Grey Hunter [Meltagun]
······Grey Hunter (Meltagun]
····Rhino [Dozer Blade]
····Wolf Guard Pack Leader [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword]

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Astra Militarum: Codex (2014) v2000) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

···Primaris Psyker [Force Staff, Psyker Mastery Level 2]

+ HQ +

···Company Command Squad [Carapace Armour, 4x Veteran w/ Lasgun]
······Chimera [Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser, Pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber]
······Company Commander [Carapace Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Orders,
····Master of Ordnance

+ Elites +

······· [3x Ratling]

+ Troops +

········Veterans [Grenadiers, Krak Grenades for Squad, Veteran w/ Heavy Flamer, 7x Veteran w/ Lasgun, Veteran w/ Meltagun]
············Chimera [Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser, Pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber]
····Veteran Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon]

········Veterans [Grenadiers, Krak Grenades for Squad, Veteran w/ Heavy Flamer, 7x Veteran w/ Lasgun, Veteran w/ Meltagun]
·····Chimera [Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser, Pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber]
····Veteran Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon]

+ Heavy Support +

3 basiliks

Thoughts?

>>50459207
Bring a Magnus?

>>50459131
Renegades and heretics seem like a good support army for thousand sons because of their cheap bodies that can counter their cheap bodies and reliable anti-tank

>>50459219
Most of the third party ones I've seen look like dogshit, with the exception of the Victoria Minis kit for the Taurox. The FW ones look good, have nice detail, and you'd get a decent master to make molds from.

>>50459293
Could look for military model kits, a lot of companies make upgrade kits etc for them. Issue is finding the right scale ofc.

>>50459292
Yea, mutant rabble focused army would fit brilliantly with Tzeentch as well.

>>50459254
Are you the guy that keeps asking Dark Angels shit?

Dude, do whatever the fuck you want. No one is going to give a fuck about "your dudes" we all nod and feign interest when people start quoting their background material for why their fucking Ultramarines Librarians are summoning Daemons and it's actually codex compliant

>>50459333
This is an option but even the heaviest offroad tyres will look odd because of 40k's 'heroic' scaling.

>>50459261
>>50459292

Either one of these works. So do the classic 3 man melta terminator/obliterator squads, or Rapiers upgraded to laser destroyers. Lots of options on the table.

>>50458538

So, since I'm planning to use my 30k plastics as Thousand Sons anyway, how bad of an idea is it to use those rules for the Decurion in Traitors Hate?

The fluff I have for my army will likely make them bad anyway, but I'm wondering just how bad it will be.

>>50458495
a pipe dream. Not even close to happening

fear on the charge if the unit has HoW. Stealth T1

>>50458538
>Blood Feud
Thousand Sons hate SW more than SW hate Thousand Sons,
I can dig it

>>50459378

If you're really worried, can't you take Flamer termies with chainfists? It covers against hoards and tanks. The jump book makes them particularly mobile, too.

>>50459461
Implying rubric terminators can take any melee weapons besides power swords

>>50459460
Considering how many of those Thousand Sons were actually there at the burning of Prospero, it's an abnormally fluffy rule.

>>50459432
514 points of bolters on 24 guys minimum because MoT

Hey, is there a difference between the 7e Dark Angel codex and the 6e one? I found a pdf of the 6e one, so I was just wondering.

>>50459432

Traitor's Hate Decurion is just fine for a balanced chaos force instead of "psykers, terminators and cultists"

Terminator Annihilation Force and Raptor Talon seem pretty solid and come with discount HQs. They don't use Inferno Bolts but they will still get good invuln saves the Thousand Sons legion tactics and bring sorcerers along. Either one gives you a way of delivering deep striking anti-tank or anti-horde firepower that the Thousand Sons lack, and the leadership drain from the Raptor Talon in particular combos with the new 1kSons-only daemon weapon.

>>50458538
really ruins using cultists as cheap troops since they have to take mark of tzeentch.

>>50459516
Just use Tzaangors. 90 points for 10.

>>50459460
At least they did, until the TS smoked Fenris.

>>50458408
Here's what I WANT to see.
On at least one detachment.
Restrictive/unwieldy formations, especially for the four dedicated legions, allowing the option to take many cult troop squads.
Following through nets you war-convocation style free upgrades for your squads (or at least for your SM and cult squads).
Then cult troops and base CSM squads might actually be fieldable despite their restrictively high base cost.
Maybe you still have to buy them the marks before you get to cash in on the freebies.
I sincerely think they're going to pull the same "all units must take the mark of X if able" for the four patron Legions.

Babby's first 40k army:

I really like the IG fluff, and I'd like to run an infantry oriented army. Can you guys tell me what you think?

Combined Arms Detachment

Company Command Squad (7) - 235pts
1 Lord Castellan Creed: Two Warlord Traits,Supreme Commander,Tactical Genius,Voice of Command,Refractor Field,Frag grenades,Two hot-shot laspistols
1 Astropath: Close combat weapon,Psyker (Mastery Level 1),Telepathy
1 Master of Ordnance: Close combat weapon,Artillery Bombardment
1 Veteran: Lasgun,Regimental standard
1 Veteran: Lasgun,Vox-caster
1 Veteran Weapons Team: Heavy Weapons Team,Lascannon
1 Veteran: Lasgun

Chimera (1) - 65pts
1 Chimera: Multi-laser,Heavy bolter

Platoon Command Squad (5) - 36pts
1 Platoon Commander: Voice of Command,Boltgun,Close combat weapon
1 Guardsman: Lasgun,Vox-caster

Infantry Squad (10) - 56pts
1 Sergeant: Boltgun,Close combat weapon
1 Guardsman: Lasgun,Vox-caster
Infantry Squad (10) - 51pts
Infantry Squad (10) - 51pts
Infantry Squad (10) - 51pts
Infantry Squad (10) - 51pts

Heavy Weapons Squad (3) - 75pts
3x Autocannon

Heavy Weapons Squad (3) - 75pts
3x Autocannon

Heavy Weapons Squad (3) - 105pts
3x Lascannon

Heavy Weapons Squad (3) - 105pts
3x Lascannon

Heavy Weapons Squad (3) - 105pts
3x Lascannon

Conscripts (50) - 150pts
50 Conscript

Platoon Command Squad (5) - 36pts
1 Platoon Commander: Voice of Command,Bolt pistol,Close combat weapon
1 Guardsman: Lasgun,Vox-caster
3 Guardsman: Lasgun

Infantry Squad (10) - 51pts
Infantry Squad (10) - 51pts
Infantry Squad (10) - 51pts
Infantry Squad (10) - 50pts
Infantry Squad (10) - 50pts

Conscripts (50) - 150pts

Veterans (10) - 100pts
1 Veteran Sergeant: Laspistol,Close combat weapon
1 Veteran:Vox-caster
2 Veteran: Meltagun
1 Veteran: Plasma gun

Commissar (1) - 25pts
Commissar (1) - 25pts
Commissar (1) - 25pts
Ministorum Priest (1) - 25pts

>>50459483

Use a CAD or Terminator Annihilation Force. Make them Thousand Sons while you're at it so they kill stuff while enjoying a 2+/3++.

>>50459509

Yes.

>>50459538
Cool, just found a 7e pdf, all good.

>>50459533
What is the total?

>>50459483

Implying you can't take regular terminators anyway

>>50459504

You get VotLW for free, though, and they get boosted when blessed.

>>50459515

Yea, I like the little combos in there, and I'd probably end up with at least one unit of Talons, which have a potential 3++ save with the Tzeentch tactics.

>>50459563
1850 points

>>50458835
Magnets are easy as fuck to do. I have 7 suits and I magnetized all of my attachments

>>50459564
How are you blessing 5 units for the 5++?

>>50459583

Termis and Warp Talons have 5++ (Termi/Daemon invuln) base + MoT(4++) + Blessing Buff (3++)

>>50459600
I was talking about your Mooks

I'm already planning on using Mutis with that flying book artifact

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>>50458814
>Why would you use rubber tires in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium?
>universe known for having the most diverse setting in setting
>feral worlds
>industrial pre space worlds
>hive worlds
>etc
>tons of different shit going on, anything can fit in it and everyone has to make do with what they have because of crippling bureaucracy.
rubber tires makes perfect sense anon, especially in 40k
even better is if they had those rubber treads like they do in dcz

>>50459554
Aaaaand nevermind, the pdf is retardedly huge.

>>50459613

fuck the mooks, they don't matter

Not Rubrics = expendable trash

>>50458553
kill yourself for trying to ruin our game

>>50459516
>>50459519

70 points for 10, up to 30. 7ppm.

210pts for 30, 6++ save, T4, cultists.

>>50459613

Units with no base invuln in a 1kSons detachment will have a 6++, 5++ if blessed by a friendly psychic power, because they have to take VotLW as free legion tactics and also have to buy Mark of Tzeentch.

>>50459658
also 1p each to replace their 2 ccw with autopistol/chainsword

>>50459658

>yfw Tzaangors are worse than Ork Boyz

>>50459640
Mega up top

>>50458538
>any detachment with the Chaos Space Marines Faction can be from Thousand Sons

...are formations considered a kind of detachment? If so, it would be really neat to take the traitors hate formation that lets cultists come back on a 4+ and giving said cultists a blessing that grants invuls and get blobs with a 4++ to drown the board with cheap durable bodies

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>>50459583
Easiest way is to stick a barebones Sorcerer with a squad and cast force.

Force being a wc1 blessing that every Sorcerer knows for free is the key to making the Blessings of Tzeentch great. Especially in the Grand Coven detachment when you can cast an extra power above your ml.

>>50459682
>yfw they get a formation that Orks would literally kill for

>>50458827
r-r-russell?

>>50459695

Cultists don't improve invulns with blessings because they don't have VotLW(which apparently is now legion tactics)

But yes, Black Crusade is a CSM detachment, so it can be Thousand Sons.

>>50459695
Anon...It's a core formation. Just use the BC Detachment and bring a single spawn as your Aux
And your cultists would have a 5++

what should I play if I want to play space nazis

>>50459645

This guy has got it. My expensive shit gets buffed.

Man, this really let me get my fluff army onto the table. I'm kind of excited.

>>50459695

Close. They don't have VotLW, so they don't get the 4++, which is a shame.

>>50459730
>>50459728
And this anon is right, disregard Cultists with an improved invul. Beer is tasty but not great for theory crafting

>>50459741
red scorpions

>>50458889
Do it. Dark Angels are a mid tier army and tons of people start with them. They have the potential to bring very strong, top tier formations but unless you already know what to bring, chances are you won't be "That guy" by bringing models you like and starting to collect.

Also, Plasma is very fitting for Dark Angels, no one would be mad about that. It's not overpowered. You'll be fine

>>50459695

Formations are detachments, and "decurions"(formations of formations) are also detachments.

Source: the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

>>50459528
Dude we're getting fear and soulblaze.

They ran out of all the good rules to give people this edition.

>>50459713
Every turn Waaagh? A conditional cc bonus depending on you rolling high on your charge? Nigga that's the same trash Orks already have. The only difference is it doesn't require 7 mobs of boys.

>>50459790

Thousand Sons is the "soulblaze" legion, and they didn't really try to give them any more of it.

>>50458823
>True, but is it really that difficult to get a flank shot on a chimera?

Depends on your board and what you do with your Chimeras as a whole.

Any IG armor you should really be running in some sort of formation on the tabletop, with different vehicles covering each others weak spots and making it hard to maneuver around them all to get a safe flanking shot. You're still vulnerable to really fast units and Deep Strike anti-tank, but it makes it much more difficult to truly flank any one side and get a clean shot off without sacrificing the unit to counter-fire or placing it into a shot trap.

Even then, leaving side armor exposed can be a strategy in and of itself, enabling you to bait a unit into a kill-zone it would otherwise not enter.

Honestly, do whatever you want. Each have their perks that can justify your choice.

>>50459784
>Formations are a special type of Detachment
Holy shit, my 3++ Maulerfiend is possible
Aha
Ahahaha
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
TREMBLE MORTALS AND DESPAIR DOOM HAS COME TO THIS WORLD

>>50459528

>free soulreaper cannons, Icon of Flame and warpflamers for rubric marines

they need this desperately

>>50459690
I can't into Mega because I'm on mobile.

Anyone mind helping me out?

>>50459728
>>50459730
>>50459744
Fug, forgot about that bit
>>50459784
It is nice to know formations are detachments however, at least the cyclopia cabal can be tzeentchified for potentially twice the unit commandeering.

>>50459821
It's a daemon, just grimoire it for a 2++ if you love it so much

>>50459821
Not fair. How did you get a maulerfiend with VotLW? All I've got is the regular kind.

>>50459821

MAULERFIEND DOESN'T HAVE VOTLW

However, you can actually give it a 2++ via the usual (daemon) method.

Question about the Blessing of Tzeentch rule: if my Sorcerer uses something like Armor of Hatred, do all VotLW units within 12" get +1 invul?

>>50459845

Cyclopia Cabal is Black Legion, they can't be Thousand Sons rules-as-intended.

However, if the new Tzeentch discipline replaces the old one for all armies, they can easily do what you're saying.

>>50459865
>>50459859
>>50459853
FUCK!
I'm going into lurk mode
Theorycraft for my drunk ass, Anons

>>50459092
>use your large blasts to target 3 Pink Horror Squads in the opponents back field
>Kill 6 models, 2 models, and 6 models respectively from left to right
>all of your shooting is done
>there are now 6 horror squads in your opponents backfield, your shooting phase made them 100% stronger and gave them 100% more psychic power

>it's okay, I have large blasts!

>your turn 2, finally clear out 1 of the pink horror squads, reduce the second to 1 and chip away at 2 of the blue horror squads
>there are now 10 units in your opponents backfield (because one was summoned with the new charge dice)

>m-m-my large blasts will get them on Turn 3!
>your opponent went from 30 models to 96 models

>>50459131
they are defensive unit, the whole Tzeentch thing is now a defensive theme to counter Khorne. They aren't going to put the hurt on anything

>>50459906
You're supposed to focus each of the squads down now since if you kill the entire unit before it splits they can't place the new models. Large blasts won't save you though.

>>50459950
Nope, it specifically says you can split even when the whole unit is wiped out

Chances of cataphract, tartaros terminators and shit for Chaos?

>>50459741
Just paint a swastika on anything really.

>>50459927

I don't know if they're a purely defensive unit, they are rather short ranged while also lacking the ability to overwatch. Tzeentch discipline is still primarily short ranged shooting as well. What do you find defensive about them?

>>50459967
Have we had a direct leak yet?
All I've found is paraphrasing and such.

>>50459984

Low, since GW is dumb. Also they aren't advertising new unit dataslates as part of Traitor Legions.

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnoughts have forge world rules, btw. They are actually quite good, 4++ against glances and 6++ against pens, give it Mark of Khorne to get Rage AND Rampage.

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>>50460015

>>50460015

There have been multiple, just google it. The powers are called Splits and Splits Again.

>>50460034

>excluding Daemonic Instability

looks like morale is the only way to wipe them without splits, and only in melee

>>50459996
Tzeentch buffs are defensive, the most notable being Invuls. That's what Tzeentch revolves around.

Split and Horrors are now also the most defensively powerful unit in the game

I agree about Psychic though, TGAT is supposed to be their form of offense. They are master psykers.

Bummed about Termies with power swords? Well their leader is a master sorcerer with Biomancy, now they're monsters on the offense.

Magnus' D Beam is the pinnacle example of this ideology.

>>50459741
Death Korps of Kreig.

>>50458538

>Take Ectomancy
>give my Sorcerer 3++ save
>Blessing boosts it to 2++

>Ghost Storm mutilators into position
>use Earthly Anathema on plasmacide
>blessing gives them 3++

>drop Ley Leech on a Raptor Lord with new Daemon Weapon
>Him and his Warp Talons have 3++ and IWND before the double assault

This is going to be fun

>>50459996
They are shock infantry, they are meant to be right in the thick of it and throw out some damage while absorbing a lot themselves while fragile but more dangerous units sneak around and do the heavy hitting

>>50459984
Assuming the people you play with aren't complete spergs, you could just play them anyway, you know. Not like it's going to be much of a deal having +1 invul or sweeping advance on a unit hardly anyone use anyway.

>>50459104
>Rulebook will be similar to Age of Sigmar’s General’s Handbook.
gonna need to know if i should panic or not
I don't know enough about Age of Sigmar

>>50460083
Can't get to 2++, MoT can never be improved beyond 3++

But yes, the disgustingly overcosted units can now get 3++s

It will be fun

>>50460135
Just go to any AoS or Chaos Daemons unit, go to downloads, and click on the free rules.

They're not actually that bad.

>>50460135
The problem AoS had was that it's army building philosophy was "take as many models as you want". The general handbook fixed that and made AoS a good game.

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>>50460141

MoT isn't going to 2++, Empyric Shield is going from 3++ base to 2++ thanks to Blessing of Tzeentch

I really wish Fire Warriors had access to other weapons like Pathfinders. GW could've added shit like actual sniper squads with Railguns or suppressive fire squads with Ion guns. I've never seen anyone take those extra guns on Pathfinders.

>>50460141

3++ Empyric Shield
+1 Blessing

It works because the Mark has nothing to do with it. The entire 2++ save is derived from the psychic power and the legion tactic special rule, neither of which are derived from having the Mark.

>>50460185
>>50460200
Look up Anons, you MUST take MoT
Pretty sure we don't get to disregard the Mark

>>50460184
>tfw mega says general's handbook is too big for mobile browsers
Mega, plz.

>>50460185
>>50460200
Mark of Tzeentch is still there and still has its effect. You can't choose to ignore your own special rules just like you can't choose to ignore Fearless or ATSKNF.

>>50460184
well that's good
so basically they unfucked it with what looks like a cheap and balanced book?

>>50460236
MoT can't improve a save beyond 3+, but it doesn't prevent another effect from doing so.

>>50460214
>>50460236

The codex says that the Mark increases Invulnerable Saves by 1 to a maximum of 3++. It does not say that it prevents Invulnerable Saves from being better than 3++, only that it itself cannot make a save better than 3++.

>>50460265
>>50460264
>>50460236
>>50460214
>>50460214
Is this the threads version of FMC aren't MC?

>>50460265
>>50460264
If its still in effect then its still contributing to the invul save and thus still caps it at 3++. There is no such thing as sequencing in 40k, all of the modifiers are continuously in effect at the same time so MoT is still there capping your invul.

>>50460306

Exactly, the MoT can't boost that 3++ beyond 3++, but the Blessing from the Legion power can. At the same time, the MoT did nothing to boost that 3++.

>>50460306

> There is no such thing as sequencing in 40k
Quiz: are Power Fists with Furious Charge S9 or S10?

>If its still in effect then its still contributing to the invul save
The invuln save is a *base* 3++ from Empyric Shield. Mark of Tzeentch fails to modify it because it cannot improve beyond 3++. Blessing of Tzeentch modifies it to 2++ regardless because it does not have a limit.

>>50460034
T1, 2W, instant death by lasgun, hilarious.
>deal wounds to horrors but don't kill them.
"Oh look, I gain another warp charge from this new unit, let's just move them 6" back while this unit moves 6" up."
>Repeat the process generating several shitty units over the course of the game not worth shooting at but still generating more warp charges.
No so hilarious.
Until you play a kill points mission.
Then it's fucking hysterical.

>>50460383

>T1, 2W, instant death by lasgun
instant death by a grot with a pocket knife

>>50460348
>The invuln save is a *base* 3++ from Empyric Shield. Mark of Tzeentch fails to modify it because it cannot improve beyond 3++. Blessing of Tzeentch modifies it to 2++ regardless because it does not have a limit.

This is objectively correct.

MoT can't improve the base 3++ so it does nothing. BoT can, there is not MoT-style limit listed for BoT. BoT improves it to 2++.

>>50460383

>oops! I just turned my unit of horrors into a blood thirster
>jk here's 20 blue horrors instead

>>50460415
40*

That artifact is bullshit.

>>50460329
>>50460348
Mark of Tzeentch doesn't "fail" to increase an invul by 1. Its increases the invul by 1 and then has a second effect that fixes the invul back to 3++. capping it at 3++ is a fixed modifier and the rules for multiple modifiers clearly state that you do fixed modifiers after you do additions. So you +1 for Mark, +1 for Blessing, then you have to fix it to 3++

>>50460415
horrors can't use malefic powers anymore

>>50460426

>Mark of Tzeentch doesn't "fail" to increase an invul by 1. Its increases the invul by 1 and then has a second effect that fixes the invul back to 3++

Funny, my codex says otherwise. I'm pretty sure the actual rules for Chaos Space Marines take precedence over your opinions.

>>50460451
By your logic the MoT 3++ cap can never be used because there is no way for it to increase an invul to beyond 3++ without of modifiers that would be done after MoT by your logic. That would make it a pointless rule (which is clear that it shouldn't be)

>>50460451
What's the wording on MoT?

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>>50460482

Screen cap from the PDF

>>50460426

>Models with a Mark of Tzeentch have +1 to their invulnerable save (to a maximum of 3+)

You get a +1 unless you have 3+ or better, then you get nothing.

>>50460481
>By your logic the MoT 3++ cap can never be used because there is no way for it to increase an invul to beyond 3++ without of modifiers that would be done after MoT by your logic

The modifiers aren't done after MoT. He's literally saying MoT does NOTHING in this case because it can only increase a save to a maximum of 3++. If you start with 3++ it does nothing. Something else which has no limit on it can increase the 3++ to 2++

>>50460506
What could take MoT that would start with a 3+ prior to adding on the mark as wargear

>>50460481

You don't know what you're talking about. Here's an example: 1kSons sorc with Sigil of Corruption casts Prescience on himself.

Sigil of Corruption gives base 4++
Mark of Tzeentch +1
Blessing of Tzeentch +1

This is a 3++ save, because the Mark cannot improve past 3++, which the sorcerer already has with the Blessing and the Sigil.

Meanwhile, another sorc casts Empyric Shield on himself.

Empyric Shield gives base 3++.
Mark of Tzeentch gives +1
Blessing of Tzeentch gives +1

This is a 2++ because even though the Mark bonus is capped at 3++, the Blessing bonus is not, and the sorcerer is able to reach a 2++ without even needing the bonus from the Mark.

Does that make sense?

>>50460506
Mark of Tzeentch didn't go away when you start applying other modifiers

>>50460524
See >>50460528

>>50460528
>>50460539

It doesn't go away, no. But it doesn't matter, because even though it doesn't provide a modifier, the other modifiers are enough to reach 2++ on their own.

See >>50460495. The specific wording. It's not setting the max invuln save to 3++. It's saying the +1 bonus can only increase an invuln save to a maximum of 3++.

Seeing as this thread's created an epic new meme already...

>>50460286
So are GC/FGCs counted as MCs/FMCs respectively but with extra rules, or are they their own separate unit type, meaning Monster Hunter wouldn't work on them?

>>50460566
Exactly. It is still there increasing invul save. It my be redundant, but it's still doing Thats why it still caps your invul save at 3++ but its still there increasing it even when you go to apply Blessing of Tzeentch

Hey, guys, what are the chances we're going to get undivided daemon princes back?

>>50460521

Guys who have the blessing giving them 3++.

>>50460590

>It "increases" the save negatively

Strong argument, anon

>>50460135
It's a extremely streamlined, barebones version of 40k. It has a couple of neat ideas like the rend mechanic, but beyond that it's complete garbage, even with the handbook.

>>50460590

That makes zero sense. It's not increasing the invulnerable save when the BASE save is 3++, i.e. empyric shield.

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>>50460539

You're right, it didn't go away. The MoT can't boost the 3++ save any further, but the BoT has no such limitation.

>>50460590

Anon, if a model had a 2++ save base, giving it a MoT wouldn't decrease its save to 3++.

>>50460599

Not with current fluff. The only canon undivided DP is Belakor and the gods see him as a mistake because they can't control him.

>>50460606

Pic

>>50460623
So what the fuck are Lorgar and Perty?

>>50460606
Welcome to 40k, where cover doesn't work with the armor you are wearing and full track tanks can drift sideways

It doesn't make sense but that's how the rules work.

>>50460637
Mistakes

Is there anyway to get magnus to a 2+ without demons?

>>50460623
Yes it would make it 3++ because that's Mark Of Tzeentch's effect

>>50460652
Use a Sorcerer to summon a Herald with the Grimoire and use it on Magnus of course this only boosts his save to 3++ because he has the Mark of Tzeentch

I wish I didn't start this fmcs aren't mcs
It was all a shit post
Why did so many people have to believe me
WHY

>>50460667
Magnus doesn't have Mark of Tzeentch

>>50460640

>It doesn't make sense but that's how the rules work.

Your examples are rules abstractions allowing for unrealistic situations to occur. What we are discussing, on the other hand, is you misinterpreting a rule that makes sense, with an argument that makes no sense.

You've done a decent job trolling, but your bait's facade is wearing thin.

>>50460258
Nah, it improved it, but it's still plenty fucked. Lots of retarded stuff like shooting into melee, insane turn-1 win combos, complete lack of meaningful loadout changes and customisation, dozens of WFB units being rendered completely worthless and copies of each other due to stats being streamlined, measuring from the model rather than the base, summoning was retardedly OP so they nerfed it into uselessness instead, all the warscrolls have a set cost and model number with no options other than taking another one, and so on.

It'll be the end of 40k if they do this, that's for sure.

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>>50460599
I don't know, but could this be Kor Megron?

>>50460672
>i was only pretending to be retarded

>>50460682
You don't understand how rules interact with each other and are summing that MoT just stops having an effect if there is a 3++ invul save already. That now how the rules work.

>>50460689

>could this be Kor Megron?

That is in fact GW's actual Kor Megron model.

>>50460286
No, because this is actually correct.

>>50460672
eh, if it wasn't that then it would be something else because /tg/ enjoys a good argument

>>50460656

Except it wouldn't.

>>50460716
Oh nice. They were using him for hyping Traitor Legions. I hope that means Undivided Princes.

>>50460741
>I don't have an way to prove him wrong so i'll just insult him. that will show 'em

>>50460741
>he actually deleted his post

>>50460637
Aligned to one of the Gods. Lorgar probs Khorne, Perty probs one of the lessor Gods.

>>50460735
Oh look, it's another "anon gets rules wrong almost deliberately" episode.

>>50460656
It really is not.

>>50460770
>Lorgar probs Khorne
Lorgar is a psyker though.

>>50460758
Anon, are you actually believing him?

That's just GW's regular multi-part Daemon Prince.

>>50460715
>>50460763

I've proven you wrong over and over again. You are refusing to acknowledge reality. MoT can't both not give a bonus and still have its bonus effect. It's one or the other.

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Hey guys, I wanted to get a box of Hybrid Acolytes to make some sweet clawed metamorphs and I was hoping somebody with experience could tell me how many crushing claw bits come in the box?

Just wondering if I should convert or get daemonette claws.

>>50460715
Cannot increase =/= lowers it if it is better than.

>>50460783
He's painted black skin, red armour, surrounded by Word Bearers. I believed him because it looks exactly like him.

>>50460770
Lorgar is one of the most powerful psykers there are, anon. Can't be Khorne.

>>50460783

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kor_Megron

>>50460775

Except its not wrong.

>Shield gives 3++
>MoT gives +1 up to 3++
>BoT gives +1 to 2++

Why is that so hard to follow?

>>50458538
Is this from WoM or Traitor Legions?

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>>50460770

>>50460787
MoT didn't go way, it's still having an effect

>>50460793
>>50460809

He's probably a Loyalist, Tau or Eldar player who is mad that Chaos Space Marines have a way of getting a re-rollable 2++, despite the fact that their armies have stuff just as broken.

>>50460809
What makes MoT happen before BoT?

>>50460809
Alternatively if you want to BS about order:
>Shield for 3++
>Bot 2++
>Mot can't improve for multiple reasons

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>>50460770
>Lorgar probs Khorne

>>50460840
>>50460837
Hey called it b4 refresh

>>50460809
I agree with you. I think I quoted the wrong anon. The guy who says it stops at 3+ is wrong.

>>50460799

IIRC It's the actual model that GW named "Kor Megron" for their battle reports. Such as the Eydolim battle in the 6th edition BRB.

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>>50460823
>whining and objectively incorrect anti-Chaosfag vs CIDF
>anti-Chaosfag must play Tau, Eldar or Imperials

Don't get me wrong, this shit is hilarious, but don't mob him with the top three. Only Taufags could hope to be this retarded, maybe Marines on a good day. And no, I'm just watching. Do continue

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>>50460763
>>50460769
'Ere you go.

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>>50460599
Abaddon's sword is an Undivided daemon according to ADB.

>>50460867
I'm amazed he wasn't expecting them to have a 2++ invulnerable. Tzeentch daemons have been doing this for a long time.

If anyone should be pissed it's Grey Knights

>>50460837
See
>>50460840

>>50460823

Probably.

>m-muh grav doesn't kill his sorcerer!

>>50460867

Fair. I started the shitshow when I went looking for blessings and spotted the shield, but I still find it hilarious how people still try to deny it.

Don't worry, it'll get nerfed with an FAQ because reasons.

>>50460840
MoT is increasing the invul save, and since its increasing invul saves it caps it at 3++. What is so hard to understand?
>>50460823
Nope, I play all 3 chaos armies (Daemons, Renegades, and CSM). It's just annoying to see people try and break clear RAI by poorly misinterpreting RAW

>>50460875

There's also Auloth the Primordial Iterator, an undivided daemon prince/minor chaos god in IA13.

>>50460899
Mind posting his fluff?

>>50460897
>MoT is increasing the invul save, and since its increasing invul saves it caps it at 3++.

Not being able do increase the save does not bring it back down if it is already better, that is it.

>>50460895

>it'll get nerfed with an FAQ because reasons.

Daemons of Tzeentch can do this on any unit, not just a psyker, and it's never been FAQ'd.

>>50460897

>its increasing invul saves it caps it at 3++

No it doesn't, only the increase itself is capped to 3++, not the entire save. It says "+1... to a maximum of 3+", not "the save cannot be improved beyond 3+"

>>50460931
Nothing is stopping the invul save from increasing more, you just have to apply a cap afterwards

>>50460792
GW provides pictures of the actual sprues on all their store pages.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/hybrid-metamorphs-2016

>>50460909

He is incredibly ancient. Originally a mono-god Daemon Prince, eventually became a minor chaos god and abandoned his previous master. Knows unspeakable maddening truths about the universe, which are heard by those near whichever vehicle he is currently possessing.

>>50460897
The mark of Tzeentch itself can't increase your save beyond a 3++
So if you cast empyric shield it's a still a 3++ with MoK
However if you cast empyric shield with the thousand son rules it would become a 2+ due to BoT

>>50460953
It is not a cap, it's an improvement with a limit.
No offence man, but you're using your own phrasing to generate new meaning to a rule.

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>>50460897
>the BLESSING of the god of magic actively getting in the way of the effectiveness of multiple magic-based guards and wards
>one of which is ALSO THAT GOD'S BLESSING
>clear RAI

>>50460953

>you just have to apply a cap afterwards

This is a question of grammar, and the wording of the rules does not say that at all.

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>>50460897

>>50460944
All of the bonuses contribute to increasing the same invul save, its not like Blessing of Tzeentch is making a separate invul save that is 2++

>>50460970

>It is not a cap, it's an improvement with a limit.

This. I've been trying to say this the whole thread.

>>50460967
Oh, that guy. Now I remember him. Odd how such a powerful being can be jammed into a Rhino.

>>50460770
Lorgar is Tzeentch/Slaanesh Demon Prince, he is someone clearly defined by his pursue of truth, perfection of rituals and devotion to an unattainable ideal as well as the ability to manipulate anyone and his ambition to grasp the truth.

Perturarbo is Nurgle/Khorne, both gods are good choices for Perty as he is someone that wishes to see not just the destruction of his enemies but crushing their hopes and dreams as well, he will not just siege your shit for eternity but also share his bitter, hopeless heart with you, for in in the trenches and Perty's soul there is nothing but blood and disease.

>>50461000
You think something that powerful can't change size?

>>50460954
Still out of stock..my GSC is on hold waiting

>>50460970
How doesn't being an improvement with a limit somehow make it stop working?

>>50460953

Where does Mark of Tzeentch say "if the model has a save better than 3++ it gets 3++ instead"? Where does it say "cap"? Show me. I would like to see in the rule.

It says models with the Mark of Tzeentch have [a] +1 [modifier] to their invuln, TO A MAXIMUM of 3+. This means the +1 to their invuln save does not occur if you have 3+ or better. Literally nothing in that rule says "to their invulnerable save, which now has a maximum of 3+". It says that the +1 applies "to a maximum of 3+"

>>50460989
OK think state retirement plans, you can collect if you earn under an amount, but you aren't prohibited from earning a higher total if you go back to work.

>>50461012
morelike, why would he allow some random warpsmith to bind him into a metal box?

Does competitive 40k help or hurt the hobby?

Should game designers work from a perspective of "balance" for tournament play?

>>50461020
This sentence is a bigger mess then your logic mate. The buff is limited, and won't apply, it has no other listed effect.

>>50461012
How can such a mighty being be bound into something so low? Also what >>50461032 said. Daemonhood is meaningless. All you're good for is being jammed into weapons. That's the only reason you exist.

>>50461055
It helps the hobby by providing more community, it hurts it when it gets in the way of casual play. Whichever is more important, and to what degree, gets the answer to that.

>>50461022
The cap i was referring to was the cap on saves in general. saves are capped at 2+ but nothing stops you from increasing a save to 1+ or more, it then just gets capped at 2+ at the end like all other stats.

Thats why MoT is still considered to be increasing the save, because you still can, just ends up at a 3++ after everything is said and done

>>50461032
>>50461073

Oh is that what happened? I dunno then.

>>50460576
GCs/FGCs are explicitly Monstrous Creatures with extra rules, it says so in their unit type description in the rulebook.

This means that they're affected by any rules that apply to MCs.

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>>50461006

>>50461082
It doesn't say that you cannot improve saves beyond 3++, only that the mark can't improve saves beyond 3++.
If you don't need the mark to hit 2++ it's wording has no effect on the save.

>>50461055
Balance is important. What's more important is power creep. I play CSM and like to bitch as much as the next guy, but games were much closer and in my opinion more fun before things like the Reclamation Legion or Stormsurges came out. It shouldn't be planned to give an army a big boost every time something new comes out.

>>50461082
If it ends up being a save better than 3++, the benefit from the mark is removed, that is all.

>>50461109
No where does it say it stops working if the model already has a 3++ save.

>>50460672
Because some people are legitimately that hard-headed about nonsensical rules interpretations. I had a 10 minute argument with some guy who thought you compared the Ballistic Skills of the firer and the target to see what you needed to hit.

>>50461082

>increasing the save negatively

You still haven't explained this. What does "increasing" mean? It means the +1 is added to the model's invulnerable save. Increasing, however, does not mean "lowering to a set limit". You can not negatively increase something.

There is a difference between a BRB rule stating that a save can never be better than 2+, and may be increased to 1+ but resets to 2+ (wherein the INCREASE is not what resets it to 2+), and a different rule saying that a specific increase applies to a maximum of 3+. The latter is not a hard cap. The latter is an increase separate from any cap (which is, as you noted, 2++). The word "increase" in Mark of Tzeentch is, on its own, enough to indicate that the save is not a hard limit. Then there's the rest of the sentence structure.

I'm not even trying to be a dick here but is English your 2nd or 3rd language?

>>50461113
New shit should always be relevant, and I like the idea of hype driving pieces, however the degree went way to shit with this shit.

>>50461123
[citation needed]

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>>50461136

>some guy who thought you compared Ballistic Skills of the firer and the target to see what you needed to hit

>>50461135
>cannot improve beyond a 3++
>improves by 1++
The onlyr elevent effect is negated

>>50461159
no where in the rules does it say redundant effect stop working or disappear. They;re still there and that's why MoT is still capping the invul to 3++

>>50461173

Are you the same guy who thought FMCs dont count as MCs?

>>50461055
Balance is more important for casual play than for competitive. Tournament players adjust far easier than casual players do.

>>50461173

No, it's still there and that's why MoT is increasing the save by 0 (since "increases by +1 to a maximum of 3+" clearly means "increases by +0 if you have 3+ or better," not "subtracts anything after 3+ because fuck the word 'increase' LOL")

>>50461156
>Beware that, when fighting Tzeentch, you yourself do not become a Tzeentchian... for when you gaze long into the book. The book gazes also into you.

>>50461149
>Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have +1 to invol save.
>to a maximum of 3+
>no order for buffs
>If save is greater than 3+, 4 count, then cannot increase
>all buffs tally to 1++, 6 count
>subtract the mark, 2++, 5 count

>>50461173
>ignoring how this post btfo'd you
>>50461145

>>50461204

Tzeentch-worshiping Space Wolves when?

>>50461202
Someone needs to take high school algebra again and be taught that "increasing by negatives" is a thing

>>50461213
see
>>50461223

>>50461223

Increasing by negatives is subtracting. Which is objectively not in the rules for MoT.

>>50461235
Still means you're increasing by something (its just by a negative number)

>>50461223
True, but ultimately irrelevant. Increasing, until a value never means subtracting back down to that value if it is already over, that just is not the way we write things.
Source: MIS Major, Acc Minor.

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>>50460599
Never going to happen. Be'lakor trademarked that shit.

>>50461055
Help. See AoS and the effect of the General's Handbook on that game. The fact that rules are tighter and FAQs are updated doesn't mean casual players can't ignore what they like with their friends and run cool narrative games, and fun campaigns. The nature of such an audience means that rough edges can be easily smoothed over.

On the other hand loose "Beer and Pretzel" rules and trying to use "Just dice off to decide" to fix issues causes real issues in competitive play where you are often playing against strangers and are pushing the limits of the game system and your own play skill.

It's certainly possible to make a game too sterile by designing for competitive play exclusively. But GW isn't even close to that level in any of their games. On the other hand, Having to keep competitive play in mind hopefully means the writers at least attempt to provide well-written rules with clear interpretations.

>Should game designers work from a perspective of "balance" for tournament play?
Generally this is good policy, and not because you expect perfectectly balanced rules in the end. It's inevitable that balance will be off one way or the other because the designer and testers misjudged something. If you're at least aiming for balance at first that tends to clusters the inevitable errors around the desired median. However, when a designer tries to "push" something and make if powerful that can be fine if they hit their mark or even if it's a bit less powerful than they intended. But when they try to push something and they make an error that results it it being even more powerful that leads to game warping disasters.

>>50461252
>value,

>>50461156
He hadn't read the Shooting Phase section in its entirety, but he had read that you needed to roll to hit.

So he assumed the roll to hit was the same as it was for melee, just comparing BS instead of WS, and refused to accept that there was a different system.

The more evidence I produced to establish his error, the more intransigent he became. It was very frustrating.

>>50461252
tell that to the english majors writing the 40k rules

>>50461223

>Addition of negative integers is the same as "increasing by postive one" resulting in a net negative increase

Back to logic 101 with you, my friend. Or perhaps remedial English would be a better fit?

>>50461287
>Hasn't read rules
>Insists he knows rules
???

>>50461287

I remember reading somewhere that Tank Shocks no longer caused morale checks in 7th, and took that for granted for over a year.

Then, as I started running Codex: Space Marines armor, I found that they did, in fact, still force morale checks, to my great benefit.

>>50461254
>A

>FUCKING

>ROCK

>>50461212

This

I cast random blessing on my sorcerer with Sigil, MoT, and BoT
4++ Sigil
MoT 3++
BoT 2++
MoT no longer applies because of 2++
Save is now 3++

Cast Empryal Shield on same sorcerer
Sigil 4++
MoT 3++
Shield 3++
BoT 2++
MoT no longer applies because of 2++
Save is still 2++ because of BoT

>>50461351

So the moral of the story is, don't bother buying sigils for Thousand Sons.

>>50461351
This one's got it.

Jesus I cannot believe the argument took you guys this long. It's very simple.

>>50461374
We got this far at the beginning, dude still argued it, now we're back to reality.

>>50461382
Oh, fair enough.

>tfw /40kg/ has been especially retarded about rules arguments lately
>tfw FMC's aren't MC's hurrrrrr