Warhammer 40,000 general

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>>50375505
First for dark eldars

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Second for Xenophilia.

Xth for space furries btfo

Rules leak when
I Must know of i Need the CE

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xth for what do I buy first if I'm a brand new player who wants to play Tyranids?

>>50375505
I was looking on the GW webstore and comparing prices between the Aus one and the US one to see if it's worth getting an American friend to mail me 40k stuff, and I found something strange.

While most stuff is about 20% more expensive in Aus compared to US, Wraithknights and Riptides are two really weird exceptions. It's about 25 or so USD cheaper to buy a Wraithknight in Aus, and 20 USD cheaper for a Riptide.

Anybody have any clue why? Is there some GW push to sell more big stompy robots to Australians?

>>50375580
Tyrants, lots of them.

>>50375580

You hold off and see if the next edition fixes them.

The changes to Purestrain Genestealers Strongly hints they're aware of the problem now.

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EIGHTH FOR KHORNE

>>50375582
So that the Aus meta better reflects how shitty life is in a death world.

>>50375621
>>50375648
FFFFFUCK

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This is how I see 2017 unfolding.

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>>50375670
How do you see 2017 unfolding?

Fuck guys I want to buy some hellions because they look so damn cool, are they somewhat viable?

>>50375621
>You hold off and see if the next edition fixes them.

But anon, I'm not a waacfag.

What if I just want to have fun painting and modelling models, with an occasional game here and there?

Surely I don't need to wait for that.

>>50375582
What the hell site are you looking a.....

Huh, you're right. Are there really Americans paying 85usd for a single riptide? Also it seems to just be an american thing, the UK price makes sense.

>>50375568
Last thread, guy said soon, also posted picture of the limted edition WoM set as proof.

>>50375670
>#breakthegate
Cadians are truly fucked

>>50375698
Then why are you asking? Go buy the models you like.

>>50375698

In that case, knock yourself out. Tyranids might not be winning tourney, but they're still pretty fun to play. Getting a Haruspex to munch a infantry blob is supremely satisfying.

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>>50375682

>>50375727
>Tau Empire remains uncovered
You've probably accurately predicted the future here anon

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>Be facing Necrons
>Everything has 4+ reanimation
>Half his shit has 3++ invuln
Wow, none of his stuff is dying.

>>50375698

For the painting and modelling, sure. Though if you do intend to play, having some idea what makes a decent army is good to know.

Tyranids aren't in the "Can't keep up with WAACfags" bracket, they're in the "struggle hugely to even do okayish casually and that's if you optimise your list" category.

And yeah yeah, Flyrant Spam is a high tier army... But Flyrant spam is insanely separated from actually playing what anyone would think of as a Tyranid army. It is it's own thing, Tyranids actually played as Tyranids are a bottom 3 army. Probably a bottom 2 now that Chaos are getting another little bump.

>>50375727
Welp. I'm moving to New Drekport

>>50375752

Tell him to stop playing netlist formation spam and face you with an actual army then.

Crons are strong and have a fairly easy time without needing to pull that shit.

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>>50375755
But anon, literally the only army that interests me thematically is Tyranids.

I've loved these little fuckers since I was in like 6th grade and walked into a GW with my Father and we did the starter demo-game and my demo-Nids beat his demo-Mahreens

>>50375775

Then just play them, man. Liking an army is way more important than how powerful they are. After all, you're gonna be spending money on them.

>>50375682

Notice how the Tau "empire" is still smaller than the realm of ultramar, and Tau-fags are still going "muh tactical supremacy!".

Creds to who ever got the Bakka sector printed in there.

Haemotrope Reactor says that it boosts plasma weapons, as defined by the rulebook. The rulebook, however, only lists the plasma pistol, plasma gun, and plasma cannon.

Does that mean it doesn't work with Plasma Rifles?

>>50375800
If it has Plasma in the name, it works with it.

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>>50375795
Bakka sector is best girl.

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Reposting the Special Edition posted in the last thread by GW leaker dude.

>>50375812
Guy also confirmed SoB in Jan/February.

Can Necrons be built fairly? Like, not as WAAC madness?

I know in the current meta there's a saturation of melts and plasma, but I have a mighty need to get 3 dreads to drop pod in...is this viable or just a waste of money? I'm a dark eldar player looking to expand my space marine kill team btw.

>>50375800
>>50375804

>however, the weapon has gets hot on a roll of 1 or 2, instead of just 1

depends how you want to interpret it, RAW would allow plasma rifles to be used this way but RAI wouldn't as its only addressing the plasma weapons that have gets hot

also fucking hell, 5 crisis suits with 2 plasmas each and a buff mander, up to 20 twinlinked blasts

>>50375505
What am I meant to do with epubs, should I be breaking out my kindle or something?

>>50375837
You need Readium dude.jpg

>>50375837

Readium, senpai.

>>50375837
just google epub reader and download literally anything on the first page

>>50375831
>>50375800
Not only that, but it changes the weapon type from Assault or Pistol to Heavy, as a way to nerf them.

Plasma Rifles are rapidfire.

>>50375829
Stop caring what people think. Make some friends so you can just play your games and stop caring so god damn much. This is supposed to be fun remember?

>>50375846
>>50375845
>>50375842
I tried with one random epub reader and a whole bunch of pages displayed as "false false", I'll give it a shot with readium though, thanks!

>>50375780
I think for now I'll just start a GSC army.

They're still Tyranid-y, and I figure I can get a small (500-1000 point) force of cultists, start building/modelling Tyranids for funsies while I'm playing games with my cultists, then eventually start allying in my Nids when I have a sizable enough collection.

Th-th-thanks /tg/

>>50375849
that isnt on the rules at all, plasma guns are also rapid fire so this is irrelevant

>>50375800
If it's S7 AP 2 Gets Hot!, or something close enough, I'd count it.

Tau Plasma Rifles would suddenly Get Hot on 1-2, which would be funny.

>>50375658
Khorne has truly blessed this thread

>>50375866

Allying Nids in with GSC is a cool start anyway. Cuz it works thematically. GSC starts signalling to the Hive Fleet, so bigger things start showing up.

>>50375874
>which would be funny.

considering they can twinlink it easily it doesnt make that much of a difference

however this reactor might be funny for tempestus scions, 2x command squads of 4 plasma guns each, rapid firing 16 blasts with twinlinked

>>50375880
death to the corpse emperor

Praise Kek---

>>50375727
Underrated post

8th edition when?

>>50375900
March-May next year.

>>50375892
Yeah. You could also use regular AstraMil Commad Squads with the Cadian battle group. No FOC, you get Preferred Enemy relics/med pack and now your Rapid-Fire Blasts are ignoring cover.

Leaks when?

>>50375909
Soon.

>>50375866
I don't support compromising usually, but GSC are really rad and cool and make for a great and fluffy lead-in to Nids

>>50375869
Thinking about Promethium pipe, my bad.

>>50375901
Any word on the rules simplification, and what that means for 7th edition armies with the more complicated rules?

>>50375621
What changes?

>>50375866
>>50375920
Can't really go wrong with genestealers.

>>50375944
Purestrain genestealers have much better stats compared to regular tyranid genestealers while having the exact same point cost.

I need recommendations for an army:

>Lots of kitbashing possibility
>Low model count
>Preferably not Imperial
>High toughness or armour

>>50375580
There is something called the tyranid swarm box.
It contains almost a hundred models for cheap.

Be aware nid rules currently are not the strongest, but this is permanently in flux so it means little for the future.

>>50375941
GW is borrowing some rules mechanics form Age of Sigmar to pull over into the new edition.

Look for an emphasis on ease of play, especially for new players.

Look for the variable-stats-based-on-damage rule mechanic seen on some Age of Sigmar monsters to make it’s way into the Grimdark.

Look for Psychics to be greatly simplified.

Army construction will not be constrained.

Some version of AoS Warscrolls will make their way into the game.

The game will retain it’s gameplay and tactical depth, and not come anywhere near AoS’s tiny 4 pages of rules.

GW’s design goal is to maintain 40K’s depth of tactics and play, while speeding up playtime and removing needless detail.

>>50375980
>>Lots of kitbashing possibility
>>Low model count
>>Preferably not Imperial
>>High toughness or armour

tau if you want to spam suits, grey knights if you want to get rid of that imperial rule

>>50375980
>>Lots of kitbashing possibility
>>Low model count
>>Preferably not Imperial
>>High toughness or armour
chaos space marines can do it.
You did not say the army has to be great on the tabletop.....

>>50376002

I don't mind competitive potential! CSM is a possiblity, as are KDK. I've yet to take a look at KDK's codex, I'm downloading it now.

>>50375983
>Army construction will not be constrained.

thank fuck for ITC

>>50375983
>maintain 40K’s depth of tactics and play, while speeding up playtime and removing needless detail.
All I've ever wanted.

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Cherno Alfa as a Knight yes or no?

Mostly because I want a excuse to buy it, but do not wish to buy a Knight

>>50376028
No.

>>50376028
Don't be an idiot

>>50375983

As long as they don't hit "no initiative" or "Roll to see who goes next after each game turn" I'll give it a look.

Those are honestly the two biggest things that make it clear AoS wasn't just a slimmed down ruleset, it was a -lazy- ruleset made by someone who didn't give a shit.

>>50376028

>7 inch

It's tall enough, but I expect some serious conversion work if you want it to look cool as a 40k mech rather than just kinda lazily slapping down an unrelated toy.

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>Love the BT in lore
>Utter trash on the TT
What a shame

>>50376070
That second one's pretty good, honestly. You can't just assume you'll get first next turn and have to take that into consideration when thinking your actions.

>>50376092
Lore is all that should matter. Or do you not love the Emperor?

>>50375580
Have in mind Nids are cool but they'r rules a bit tunned down and they requiere to paint a fucking lot of miniatures.

>tfw want to play CSM
>tfw can't decide on a legion or paint scheme

>>50375880
You almost did it again omcg

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>>50376108
I just love purging Xenos

>>50376131
Sounds like you should be Deathwatch, not Black Templars.

>>50376098
>turn 1
>player 1 goes first
>player 2 uses a null deploy
>player 2 gets to go first with skyhammer/auto arrive
>turn 2
>player 2 wins the dice roll and gets another turn

Yeah that sounds fucking stupid

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>>50376140
Too sneaky and small scale m8

>>50376098

It rapes immersion in the ass, because you can randomly get to perform two turns of actions in a row with the opposing army just sitting and taking it.

And it heavily randomises the winner of the match. Player skill means jack shit if a two turn rampage happens at the wrong moment. Sure you can plan around it to an -extent- but that will never stop it from being two turns of unrestricted action.

>>50376140
That's something I've been thinking latelly
both Deathguard and Black templars are the guys who really really reaaally fucking love purging xenos
But I'd say Black Templars are the pshychotic-crazed out guys and the Deathwatch more like the "Men in black" of the Imperirum

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>>50376121
Any preferences?

>>50376171
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUi8Dv73hA

>>50376171
Yeah but with the BTs, it's not just Xenos they're purging.

>>50376185
That's why they don't have the word "Fists" in theyr name.

>>50376181

I'm thinking either Word Bearers or Death Guard.

But Word Bearers...I feel like if I pick Undivided, I have to sacrifice some of the fun stuff available.

And Death Guard seem like fun, adding in the Nurgle daemons too, but it almost feels like, although they're meant to be the toughest ones, they're not that tough.

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Haven't really been following 40k for a year or so, is it true that the lore is moving forward or was I rused?

>>50376205
fenris is about to get fucked by magnus the rad

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>>50376205
Oh my, yes.

Can you guess what this is?

>>50376160
What?

>player 1 gets 1st turn, does his half
>player 2 does his half
>roll to see who goes next
>player 1 gets to go 1st again, just like 40k would be normally
>2 goes
>roll
>player 2 starts this time, giving him a way to negate first-turn advantage.

>>50376203
Word Bearers are Undivided, but they can use cult units fine. It fits their fluff.

Why do Twisted Copse and the ruins have a point cost now?
Also, toe-in-cover is gone.

>>50376232
see
>>50376150

it has a chance of letting the disadvantaged person to go again, however it also has a massive advantage to null deploy lists and alpha strike lists

can you imagine a tau player with a riptide wing and stormsurge getting a 2nd turn in a row, then deciding to use his double shooting phase for the riptides?

this idea is fucking retarded, its just RNG bullshit

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Screw you guys, I actually kinda like the Ultramarines

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>>50376215
>>50376220
Neat.

>>50376232

Unless seizing happens, turn 2 guy gets deployment advantages. It's imperfect, but there you go.

Either way, turn 1 advantage is nowhere near as catastrophic as a two turns in a row advantage can be. With an ounce of competence, that's plenty of time to fuck someone into an almost unrecoverable state.

>>50376267

The Ultramarines, when not written with the Spiritual Liege bullshit, are cool. Fuckin' Roman Legions In Space.

>>50376267

They're fine when their unique traits are emphasised, but a lot of the time all that's emphasised is their generic traits, with a bunch of superfluous statements about how they're the best tacked on.

>>50376269
What we're trying to decide now is which other Primarch comes back first, Lion, Russ or Guilliman.

>>50376160
lmao you're a fucking idiot
how is randomly deciding who gets the first turn each turn less fair than 1 player always getting first turn the whole game ?
how the fuck is a turn based system immersive in the first place ?
see >>50376232
either you get to turn around the first turn advantage the other player had making things more fair or player 2 fails again at which point we have the exact same system we have in 40k now

>>50376272
So you mean like 40k is right now?

If you get to go first twice in a row, then you are just playing like normal 40k. If it flips, then some of that first-turn advantage you had is recovered.

>>50376260
no you fucktard
that way he has 2 turns while the other player only has 1
the exact same situation would have occurred if the tau player won the roll off
on top of that this system also buffs melee

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>so I have, of course, Alpharius here

Duncan just used a meme in the latest WHTV tip of the day video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QksrFJyT5A4

>>50376290

>how is randomly deciding who gets the first turn each turn less fair than 1 player always getting first turn the whole game ?

He gets the first turn once, then it alternates.

Heck, there's even such a thing as last turn advantage in objective based games: You can make reckless dives towards the end and pull ahead in points.

>>50376319
>that way he has 2 turns while the other player only has 1

which was exactly what you were suggesting, just the other way around

>the exact same situation would have occurred if the tau player won the roll off

no it wouldnt you fucking retard, the turn order right now is 1,2,1,2,,etc

with your fucking stupid system is has the potential of going 1,2,1,1,2 or 1,2,2,1,2

>on top of that this system also buffs melee

at the same rate it buffs shooting, completely irrelevant

>>50376325
It would be nice if 40k didn't use the retarded system of securing objectives in your own turn.

If they made it so that it was at the end of your opponents next turn then it wouldn't simply be "I'm within movement range of this objective, free points pls"

>>50376220
Just noticed the DP in that picture, I hope Magnus allows them to be taken as HS.

>>50376356
ITC uses the system you want, your objectives are scored at the start of your next turn, not at the end of your current one

lets you try to deny objectives, way more fun

Lads, I feel weird watching this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_BBY0-zO1M

>>50376323

They should just never release Alpharius and Omegon models.

Just have them be disguised somewhere on the board and you don't even need to say which model they are.

>>50376382
GW have officially went into the fucking deep end.

>>50376220
>almost thrice the height of the DP
>still MC, Not GC
Psychic REEEEEEEEEEEE

>>50376325
yeah but he always has the first turn advantage which is fucking huge when it comes to shooting. you're always gonna have less points than your opponent when you get second turn because something is going to get shot

>>50376344
so in both cases at the end of round 3 someone has gone 2 times ? and this is different how ?
and you're wrong of course cause simple math comes as naturally to you as simple logic
you can't go 12112
it doesn't buff shooting it nerfs it
that unit of assault marines you were gonna blast with ap 3 the next turn ? well the other player won this roll off and they are in melee now

>>50376267
Ultramarines are great. Fuck the haters.

>>50376323
He's so cute

>>50376382
what the actual christ

>>50376402
Too late. 30k already has an Alpharius model despite him being dead

>>50376382
Is what a "This Guy" GW is like
I love it

>>50376382

what it should of been

>"Paint it black" starts playing
>Guy with long hair slowly walks out of doorway
>begins to furiously paint the whole room black
>Chaos XL Spraypaint

>>50376382

The phallic symbolism and homoerotic overtures are through the roof in this one.

>>50376181
"Iron within, Iron without!" because basilisks

>>50376181
I always liked the style of the Iron Warriors, heavy tanks and weapons everywhere, but I also think the history of the Thousand Sons is one of the best in the fluff.

>>50376436
>it doesn't buff shooting it nerfs it

>getting to go twice nerfs shooting

are you literally retarded? im not even going to explain why thats wrong

>you can't go 12112

if only the 2nd player gets to do it, then it would be 12212, correct?

now, what if the 2nd player null deploys, player 1 didnt actually get a turn of shooting, player 2 then deploys his entire army through whatever means (nemesis strike force, ultima strike force, skyhammer, etc) and alpha strikes in his turn, then he randomly has a chance to get ANOTHER free round of shooting and scoring

what if player 1 has low range weapons and you deploy on the far edges?

what if it isnt an alpha strike composition?

again, what if the 2nd player is tau and has a riptide wing, those 2 turns of shooting now becomes 3 turns from the viewpoint of the riptides

on top of all this, 2nd turn has its own advantages, you have better deployment and you get the final turn, which for objective modes is gigantic

simple logic is natural, yet you don't seem the fathom it

>>50376220
From where is this pic
Haven't seen it before

>>50376220
Holy shit, Magnus is HUGE

Thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbepSuA0aYo

>>50376382
kek

Which is the best marine army, loyalist or otherwise, for footslogging?

Fuck A Metal Box

>>50376531
Warhammer Community site.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/19/this-december-all-is-dust-and-loads-of-new-books/

>>50376382
Meme game strong
I support this insane GW

>>50376529

Maybe the issue is the ridiculously OP armies and the special rules that are being handed out to them like candy in this edition?

I mean, would old school CAD, no formations, no underpriced giant murder suit Tau be that bad against old school CAD, no formations, no Grav-spam, no invisible bike deathstar Space Marines, using that random player-turn system?

>>50376181
ALPHHHJA because im starting a 30k alpha so why not just mix and match

>>50376575
At this rate Death Guard is gonna have chain sickles

>>50376683
What makes you say that?

>>50376650
aye that would solve alot of problems, however it wouldnt make this "2nd player goes twice in a row" idea any better, when the majority of getting good at the game is tipping RNG in your favour, adding extra RNG that neither player can control is a step back

being first turn has its advantages, being second turn also has its advantages

a reasonable compromise would be (assuming you play more than one match) is you roll to see who goes first in the first match, then every match after that the alternating players dont have to roll, they just choose to accept if they want first turn or not

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How shitty would this be? I fucking love Daemon Engines, I also loved Stormtroopers back when I used to play years ago and quite like to look of the Scions, and I quite like playing heretics.

Looking over the Tactics page, it sounds like the Scions make a fragile but fun hammer that normally uses allies to get their anvil. Are Maulerfiends hardy enough to serve that purpose, especially since I'll vaguely want my Alpha to get gibbed T2-3 or so?

I just want a supplement leak so I can plan what I want to buy. FUCK

>>50376695
The fact that tSons legit have chain khopeshes(?) and Death Guard will probably have harvesting instruments as melee weapons

>>50376713
What program is this?

>>50376733
Those are power swords.

>>50376028
It would be kind of cool if you fluffed it as a knight from a world that couldn't do regular repairs and had these amalgamations as all that were left of the world's knights like House Makabius from Conquest

>>50376713
And if it would suck shit, how would you twist it in order to keep with the same theme of "Terrifying Dino Daemon Engines and Operators Operating Operationally"?

>>50376713
If you want to play scions' and daemons and are not afraid of Forgeworld, get IA 13 instead of Militarum Tempestos
If you make your warlord into a Bloddy Handed Reaver, you can take Renegade Grenadiers who are pretty much stormtroopers.
Unlike MT they are BestBuddies with CSM

But no taurox for you, heretic.

>>50376737
http://webapplications-webroster.rhcloud.com/rc/web/

>>50376737
https://webapplications-webroster.rhcloud.com/rc/web/#/rosterCreator

>>50376751
That would be more appropriatebut i can't doubt the fact that GW will go full retard

>>50376768
No, they're actually power swords, says so in WD.

>>50375530
Awesome heresy is still heresy, anon.

>>50376220
A bunch of overcosted ap3 with soulblaze.

A zero sum game of summoning things into ineffective positions and accomplishing nothing as your opponent rolls dice at you.

>>50376810
AP3 Soulblaze Flamers?

Any guesses on the Soulreaper Cannon?

>>50376783
Ah,i was saying this based on the cover art where they seem to have a jagged edge. That makes more sense

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>>50376382
GW finally made their own version of the Breathtaking PDF?

>>50376759
Huh, interesting. Hadn't even considered them because I wasn't aware it was an option. I thought I remember hearing about Renegades and Heretics was swarm-heavy like guard? Is the Bloody-Handed Reaver that much of a game changer?

And I honestly couldn't care less about losing the ugly pig-truck. Much prefer Valkys anyways.

>>50376181
Why the green mouth on the WEs?

>>50376929
It's the symbol GW put up in the recent Legions video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmSZUvtR6Q

>>50376929
updated legion symbols

>>50376942
I've watched the video before but why green? Wasn't that apart of the WE's original color scheme?

>>50375830
Anyone want to help me out?

>>50376783
Shame. I'd rather have anything than powerswords, they are such lacklusters.

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>>50376956
Original

New to 40k here. Want to start a guard force because the guard are my favourite.

My fiancée has bought me the guard start collecting box, armoured claw box and a cadian command squad. Is this a decent start ? I don't care much for crunch, it's the fluff I enjoy.

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>>50376995
I'm talking about the RT-era.

>>50375830
>>50376967
Between the recent push to grav weaponry over other options, the recent formation, the new FAQs, and the buff to their attack stat, Blood Angels dreadnoughts are pretty legit to drop in. Space Marine ones can do similar, but worse, though they're attached to what is arguably a better army. It's worth at least trying.

>>50376999
>Fiancee bought an Armoured Claw box for a guard army.

Anon, your Fiancee is a Xenos infiltrator and should be purged immediately.

>>50376529
Null deploy was a mistake.

>>50377011
Yeah, I guess the decided to omit the globe to make it more stylised and vector friendly, and pay homage to with with green "ground" teeth.

Not a fan.

>>50376999
Yes. The Armoured Claw Box is just a Guard box with an extra sprue. The Guard start Collecting Box and the Command Squad allow you to create a full army out of it.

If you're willing to ignore the oddity of it, the new Genestealer Cults book is basically better crunch for a guard army, with genestealers added in besides. Either way, you'll be wanting Leman Russes soon. They're the backbone of the Guard the same way the Guard are the backbone of the Imperium.

>>50377011
>Nightlords
>Moody Blue

Oh GW.

>>50377090
I mean, they're not wrong...

>>50375505
>Good morning edition
>Not blessed Khorne trips edition
Shame.

>>50373888
Also, did someone cap that?

>>50376999
It's a pretty solid start.
You can make a decent army using the infantry as veterans, sitting them in front of the tank as cover and a second squad in the chimera.

Only problem is the command squad only comes with one of each special weapon which are the coolest looking guns.

>>50377031
Cool, I think I'm going to go for it then. I know it depends on the meta but should I try to run them as vanilla as possible to save on points?

anyone got experience with finecast, do u clean it the same way as forgeworld resin, aka wash it etc

>>50377136
Yes I did and then someone reposted it here >>50375648

>>50376918
>>50376759
Okay, holy shit, reading over this armylist it sounds rad as shit. And not that reliant on paying the mountain of money that Forgeworld lists normally lend themselves toward. Why have I never heard of anyone playing this? Just the normal Forgeworld stigma?

>>50377165
Well, yeah. Grenadiers arent exactly top-choices (nor are Scions so who cares in this case) so most people tend to gravitate towards better options the IA13 has to offer.

>>50377136
Why? Dubs, Trips and quads are cancer.

Unless its octo eights WGAF?

>>50376759
Not gonna lie but, even as a guy who finds IG boring as fuck to play/paint, that sounds awesome

>>50377194
Its cancer yeah but that was pretty gud. Calling out for khorne and then actually getting trips of eights is rare.

>>50375648
You should have waited to cap that, guy got a ton more (You)s after that was posted.

>>50377183
Aren't Grenadiers Ws 4 but BS 3, or is that somebody else?

>>50377148
I'm a fan of Furiosos with power fists, a frag cannon, and a meltagun. Though, there's arguments to be made for all three - stock are cheap as chips, but you get what you pay for. Librarians give you all the goodness of a Librarian with all the capabilities of a dreadnought, with all that implies - and jump dreadnoughts are great hunters. The Furioso's front 13 allows it much more lenience in combat, and the frag cannon can be devastating the turn it drops, but it's got infantry-scale mobility afterward and is only really good in CC.

>>50377165
Friend of mine runs them, but uses the infinite horde of mooks as an excuse to hide his Cyclopic Cabal sorcerers, and uses the Heavy Support slot for a Baneblade to pair with his Knight. It's not the best superheavy, I'll admit, but it's a pain in the ass to work on target priority with both of them on the board.

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Reposting the final FAQ:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/22/warhammer-40000-rulebook-final-faq/

>YFW pask executioners are good again
>YFW meltabomb spam in melee is still out
>YFW precision strikes get nerfed
>YFW manbarbies and riptides most definetely can't use terrain cover
>YFW Jink doesn't stack with other cover saves

>>50377281
Time to get the Ghost Arks back out...

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>>50377236

>>50377311
> Having to buy all that shit
Yeah, that's why not. At that point you're literally playing Stormtroopers But With Worse Leadership, when the book has so much better options.

>>50375769

>hey cron player don't use your formations or decurion
ok, as long as you dont use chapter tactics or formations
>why are you being so unreasonable?

Nth for Plasma might outdo grav: 1850

Unbound
> ML2 Librarian
> ML2 Librarian
> Deredeo Dreadnought
- Plasma Cannonade
- Aiolos Missile Launchers
> Haemotrope Reactors
> Void shield generator
- 3 Shields
> Promethium Relay Pipes

Pinion Battle Company
> Barebones Captain
> Tactical Squad
- Plasma Cannon
- Razorback w/ Lasplas
> Tactical Squad
- Plasma Cannon
- Razorback w/ Lasplas
> Tactical Squad
- Plasma Cannon
- Razorback w/ Lasplas
> Devastator Squad
- 5 Extra Bodies
- 4 Plasma Cannons
> Assault Squad
- Jump Packs
> 5x, Scout Squad
- Camo Cloaks
- 4x Combi-plas on sargs-10

using Raptors Tactics

This list is meant to maximize the amount of Ignores Cover Large Blasts that can be thrown downrange in a given turn. Librarians are there to roll up divination to try and give the deredeo Ignores Cover. Ideally I want to table someone on turn 1, but I can settle for a turn 2 tabling.

>>50377382
Pretty sure formation benefits only apply in a battle forged army, so unbound stuff would kill it.

>>50377281
Jink stacks with stealth, shrouded, and other bonuses to cover, they just don't stack with things like a 5+ intervening cover.

Bonuses still apply

>>50377281

>YFW meltabomb spam in melee is still out
It's pretty stupid, but anything that makes vehicles even a little tougher is good in my book.

>>50377382
>you're playing against an all-Land Raider list

>>50377424
No, formations get benefits. CADs don't.

>>50377424
Yea, obviously scouts can't give their Ignores Cover spotting to the Deredeo, hence the librarians. The fortifications are fair game though.

You can take formations in an unbound army, but you can't take Decurions. A pinion company is OK, but a Gladius Strike Force is not.

>>50377428
>Jink doesn't stack with other cover saves
That's what I said. I didn't say BONUSES.

>>50377460
when did multiple cover saves EVER stack?

>>50376267
>insert epic 1d4chan meme

>>50377281
> "Use whatever bases you want"
'Kay, so nothing's stopping me from putting all of my tactical marines/scouts on 40mm bases, and thus modeling the squads for advantage against blasts.

>>50377494
Absolutely not. Nor is anyone stopping you from modeling your riptides as laying down in a traditional sniper pose, so they'll actually get cover from shit.

>>50377494
A: The rules assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with, but it’s entirely fine to mount them on whichever base you think is appropriate. Sometimes, a player may have models in their collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren’t supplied with a base at all. In these cases you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance.

>>50377382
>Nth for Plasma might outdo grav
Not really. Your ability to deat with AV14 is extremely limited, your chances of blowing yourself up is extremely significant, unbound a shit, and your ability to play the objective game is weak. Unless your relying on fucking razorbacks and assault marines, in which case your an idiot.

>>50377494
>hmm, I want to break the game as hard as I can
>shall I take 5 imperial knights? No.
>shall I take GSC with 4 flyrants? No.
>shall I take a as many riptides and stormsurges as possible? No.
>skyhammer with grav? No, none of these are right.
>I've got it! Tactical marines on 40mm bases! I'll be UNSTOPPABLE!

>>50377531
> "It's entirely fine to mount them on whichever base you think is appropriate"

Hence I think it's appropriate for scout squads to be mounted on very large bases. That way they can stretch out squad coherency even further. ^_^

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>>50377382
You're doing it wrong. Bring Allied Guard and use Heavy Artillery Carriages.

You get large blasts with effectively infinite range, on an Artillery unit with 25 wounds (enjoy killing THAT outside of melee) with a psyker in (for Prescience and leadership) and a Commander that can order them to ignore cover. And it's Barrage.

Roll it like this:

Allied Imperial Guard Detachment (545)
>No slot
Primaris Psyker, ML1 (50)
>HQ
Command Squad(125)
+chimera
>Troops
Veterans(145)
+2 meltaguns
+chimera
>Heavy Support
Heavy Artillery Carriage (225)
+3 guns

That's the minimum. Install additional upgrades at your leisure, then toss 3 twin-linked, cover-ignoring s9 ap3 ordnance barrage large blasts downrange a turn. Max range 20 feet, direct fire within 3. Everything short of Terminators gets a tasty dirt sandwich.

Enjoy.

>>50377239
What if I was planning on going imperial fists?

>>50377547
Sure, that means less cover for them.

>>50377547
>>50377570

And get tagged by every blast template from here to Valhalla.

Not to mention model storage.

And you're gonna have some trouble getting all of them to swing in melee.

>>50377494
>not putting ravenwing bikers on knight bases
>not walling in your opponent into their deployment some turn one, and laughing as they try to get through your plethora of 2+ rerollable jinks just to be able to move

>>50377579
>tagged by every blast template from here to Valhalla.

Larger base size mean fewer can fit under a template.

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>>50376382
Oh boy, i have been waiting for a reason to post this.

>>50377342
You are actually playing storm troops that can take 2 special weapons per 5,AND can have a bunch of different rules

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>>50377602
What was that about cover saves?

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>>50377602
>not glueing one model to the table at the start of the game, stating that the tabletop is its base so the enemy can't deploy, and claiming victory

>>50376344
>121121

>Player goes twice during the second battle round, you go never, wait till turn 3

You roll off after both players have gone, which means if player one wins, it's just like 40k. Player one always goes first.

Rolling off gives a chance for player 2 to get first turn. You just account for the possibility in your tactics

>>50377679
> Claiming the table as your base
Then you can't deploy the model, as it's too large to fit in your deployment zone. Ergo, you can only use it in apocalypse games where you have the entirety of the table as your deployment zone. But then you can't field your army...

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Dont mind me, just doing a bit of shilling.

The open beta for preorders of Deathwing is up guys. Download your 4GB and play. Plus it's a seperate entry on steam, so you can refund the actual game is the beta doesn't suits you.

>>50377281
>>50377438

Well that adds some more utility to Walkers I suppose.

>>50376382
I still prefer the 80' scenic bases vid.

>>50376382
Why is this vid unlisted? how did you find this?

>>50376382
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o1r9uUDmoM

>>50377739
Now THIS I like. It's so deliberately 90s it HURTS.

>8 awesome bases for your hero!
>a slab of marble
>stairs
>a pipe
>iron girders
>a destroyed wall
>a BARREL
>a tank turret
>and a BOMB
>YES, A BOMB
>*BLAM*

Still no rules leaks if any kind and the shit goes up in 2 days

How am I supposed to know what to buy for the decurion?

>>50377854
They did publish mangus's stats

>>50377870
His stats literally mean nothing

>>50377870
Yeah, but a statline doesnt mean shit in the modern game. His special rules will be what makes him good or bad

>>50377311
Huh, so BS 4 with hotshots, with two hsvg per 10 and 2 regular special weapons per 10. Nice.

What is a Decurion?

>>50377854
I just want leaks regarding the legions book.
I need to know if my 40 Emperor's Children Noise Marines are viable and if I should bother continuing 40k or if I should just stick with 30k

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>>50377701
>preorders

>>50377904
10 Urions.

>>50377739
I love this

>>50377854
you realize it goes up for PREORDER in two days? and most leaks come from people getting their copy early?
calm down, they'll leak sometime next week

>>50376181
Crimson Slaughter, y'all legions is gay

>>50377613
But more likely an off-kilter blast will hit them.

Hellforged Warpack, is it worth it? Probably planning on just giving the Warpsmith a multimelta to give him the appearance of being anything other than a tax, and then a trio of Maulerfiends to rip and tear up the field.

>>50378017
>Warpsmith tax
>lets waste even more points on it

wew lad

>>50375944
>>50375969

Genestealers were originally designed with the assumption they would be able to infiltrate, move, run and charge on turn 1, or charge the turn they outflank.

Since they removed this from the core rules for Infiltrate and Outflank, but didn't give Genestealers other abilities to compensate, they ended up horrendously underpowered because the strategy they revolved around no longer worked.

Codex: Genestealer Cults brings back ambushing for them, and gives them Stealth and 5++ agility save so they don't automatically get shot to death if they don't charge the first turn they're on the table.

>>50377460
You're right, my bad.

>>50378017
Formation with not-so-good bonuses and units that are a bit sub-par (but not outright bad).

With maulerfiends the formation is pretty 5/10.

>>50375689

Nope but you can buy them and run them as Beast Masters who are effectively cheaper hellions

>>50378080
Thanks.

Sounds great, like it fits the fluff better.

Rate my Siege Assault Vanguard list that I just decided to purchase yesterday. It's fun as hell but I only start with eleven models on the board.

+++ Minotaurs, 1st Company (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2011) (2000pts) +++

++ Combined Arms Detachment (Space Marines: IA10 - Siege Assault Vanguard (2013) v52) (2000pts) ++

+ Uncategorised +

········Chapter Tactics [Minotaurs (FW)]

+ HQ (310pts) +

········Damocles Command Rhino (75pts)

········Lord Asterion Moloc, Minotaurs (235pts) [Warlord]

+ Elites (215pts) +

········Cataphractii Terminator Squad (215pts) [Cataphractii Terminator w/ Chainfist (40pts), 4x Cataphractii Terminator w/ Lightning Claws (140pts)]
············Cataphractii Sgt [Master-crafted Power Sword]

+ Troops (580pts) +

········Siege Assault Squad (195pts) [Combat Shields for Squad (25pts), 9x Space Marine]
············Veteran Sergeant (15pts) [Bolt Pistol, Power Sword (15pts)]

········Siege Assault Squad (195pts) [Combat Shields for Squad (25pts), 9x Space Marine]
············Veteran Sergeant (15pts) [Bolt Pistol, Power Sword (15pts)]

········Tactical Squad (190pts) [Siege Mantlets for Squad (50pts), 9x Space Marine w/ Bolter (126pts)]
············Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Bolter]

+ Fast Attack (895pts) +

········Caestus Assault Ram (275pts)

········Caestus Assault Ram (275pts)

········Storm Eagle Assault Gunship - Roc Pattern, Minotaurs (345pts) [Extra Armour (15pts), Twin-linked Multi-Melta (15pts)]
············Legacies of Glory, Storm Eagle (20pts) [LoG: Isstan V Dropsite Massacre (20pts)]

>>50377011
Why did they change them from Sons of Horus to the Black Legion?

I'm preparing for my 1500 game vs my friends new Tau army, I've got my Orks.
All I know us he owns lots of pathfinders, stealth suits, fire warriors, kroot, ethereal warlord and two riptides.

I'm writing my list, what advice can you give me?

>>50378158

Fluffwise, because they were ashamed of their defeat and of the failure of Horus

>>50378158
Because Abbadon got mad at Horus for failing.

>>50378158
Because nobody wants to be associated by that loser who couldn't even kill a false Emperor.

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>>50378166

>I've got my Orks

Should I buy Daemonettes, I never plan on playing Slaanesh but they are exclusive. Save me before GW takes my wallet

>>50378169
>>50378171
I know the fluff reason, I was just wondering why the writers decided to do it. I think the Sons of Horus is a better name.

Black Legion is very generic. Thinking about it, I never really see much affection for the Black Legion. I don't think I've ever seen a Black Legion army, for that matter.

I was just wondering if their was ever a known rationale for the change.

>>50376092

>top tier codex
>utter trash

They can't bring Librarians and are in desperate need of a decurion, but they're still space marines. You can still take a relentless/SnP + grav combo if you want an easy win.

Really their main problem is in the lore they run mixed assault/scout squads, honor guard and terminators all in land raiders, which isn't "meta." But that doesn't mean it's not a scary list for lots of armies. What will Genestealer Cults be able to do about that much AV14, bolter and flamer fire? Not much, provided you don't go full retard and charge purestrains rather than shoot them.

>>50378219
I know the chink from MiniWarGaming plays BL when he runs CSM, but he likes anything Khorne a lot more.

>>50378219
Because "Horus" in name. They are not Sons of Horus. Black Legion is mix of many legions, warbands etc. And they don't like Horus.

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>>50376181
WORLD EATERS! RIP AND TEAR! LET ME FUCKING ASSAULT FROM VEHICLES!

>>50378219
To show them as unsentimental who'll throw away failures.

Like the later Oath Brolken

>>50378158

I think that the Sons of Horus were literally disbanded after Horus' death. As in, the Legion was broken apart.
Abaddon then took a bunch of renegades, outcasts and cunts and shaped them into his own Warband, which grew into a new 'Legion'. So naturally it includes a lot of ex-Sons simply because there were a lot of orphaned Sons running around at the time, but it's also why the Legion contains so many members from the others.

He didn't repaint and rename the Legion. He disbanded it, and then re-recruited a lot of the old guard into his new gang.

> Talon of Horus, I think

>>50378219
I don't know that either, but I imagine it's because "Black Legion" is a bit 2spooky for guys who were the most prominent "good guys" of the Great Crusade, particularly if their early paint scheme wasn't actually black.
Plus having them called "Sons of Horus" is a good way of putting Horus in the forefront of "the Horus Heresy", without having to have him pop up in every story or whatever, a bit like how the Emperor HAS to be distant and inscrutable for 40k to make sense and not be boring.

>>50378252
I still hold World eaters and Death guards greatest betrayal were giving up bitching colour schemes.

>>50378219

There's a guy at my club who has a black legion army, though he's been playing daemons recently.

It's supposedly pretty easy to paint them, just prime black then drybrush iron and bronze details here and there.

Are we going to get new Black Friday deals this year or will they be the same bundles?

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>>50378245

>Black Legion codex: The core of the BL are the remnants of the Sons of Horus. They are the ones who attack and destroy the Horus clone
>ABD Black Legion Series: The core of the BL are 3 cult marines and they kill Horus alongside a hundred Rubric Marines, a possessed Fenris wolf and a Dark Eldar

I don't know who to believe anymore

>>50378189
I play Orks all the time but I've never fought Tau.

They're all shooting so I'm guessing cover saves and melee trip them up?
He tells me they have high strength weapons but very low BS, like an Ork army.

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>>50378284
Something something certain point of view...

>>50378183
Horus is the most famous Primarch. If you only have a surface level knowledge of the setting, you've probably still heard of the Horus Heresy.

It just seems odd to go from a name that directly relates to the most famous traitor, and hence has a lot of meaning for people as they get deeper into the setting, to one that means absolutely nothing.

Again I'm not talking about in-character decisions. I just think it was a poor decision for the writers to have changed the name because it cuts the Legion off from some of it's most interesting elements, and I'm wondering if they ever said why they did it.

>>50378268
Right? That's why my WEs are painted Pre-Heresy colors with a generous smattering of blood.

>>50378284
>believing black library
not even GW believe black library

>>50377701

I actually had no idea, thanks m8

>>50377907

buy, play 2 hours of beta, if you don't like it, refund.

Steam is amazing these days lads.

>>50378309

But dude the rebirth of the Sons of Horus into the Black Legion is exactly that, they are cutting ties with Horus...

>>50378302

If you're not baiting...

The dude is setting you up, they have ignores cover out the wazoo and marker lights boost BS. Melee does indeed trip them up if you can get through their supporting fire (if you charge one unit any units in 6" can also fire overwatch)

>>50378189
>> Two Riptides
>> Orcs

RIP

>>50378374
>Orcs
Not fantasy

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what weapon should i equip for my hellbrute?

>>50378381
>not fantasy

Yeah cuz then they'd be Orruks

>>50378309
not only did they change specifically to cut off ties FROM horus, who had failed them
but its not just the sons of horus that are a part of the black legion anymore. its pretty much anyone that wants to join chaos under a unified banner.

>>50378390
No, that's AoS

>>50378073
But daemon dinos, heretic. Daemon dinos that whip their hair back and forth.

>>50378110
What's your recommendation as far as what to run in it to make it viable then? Hellbrutes and Defilers are so fucking hideous.

I struggled with what way to take my Chaos Marines but ended up going with Black Legion. Main reason being that you can running them really anyway you choose and it still be thematic and "fluffy"

Plus given the new traitor legion coming out, I can run them under any legions new rules and it still generally make sense.

>>50378361
You think I'm trolling because I mentioned Orks or because I mentioned Tau?
Take a look at this list

Orks 1498/1500 cad
-Warboss 120
Bike, thinkin' kap, klaw
-Weirdboy 75
Level 2

-10+1 grots 40
Squig
-10 sluggas 78
Nob with big choppa n tl-shoota
-15 shootas 123
Nob with big coppa n tl-shoota, big shoota

-9 tank bustas 142
Nob, three squigs
-3 meganobz 120
Trukk 35
Ram
-6 Kommandos 125
2 burnas, nob, klaw, shoota

-Da flyer 145
Shootas n boss/three scorchas/bomm (10 discount if it's a bomber so two extra sluggas)
-7 bikers 141
Nob with choppa

-3 mega kannonz 99
3 extra grots
Mek 15
-Battle wagon 145
Killikannon, ram
-Deff dread 95
Scorcha, klaw

Warboss with the bikers, weirdboys with the meganobz, bustas in the battle wagon.
What do I run the flier as?

>>50378446
I get how people hate on defilers but I run hellbrutes in almost every list and they rarely let me down. Give them a ranged weapon that makes sense vs who you are fighting and have them shoot away and walk forward.

Remember they FAQed them to have 4 base attacks. Get them in close combat and avoid powerfists and they eat through most squads.

>>50378214
it is a classic sculpt so depending on how bad you want to paint and display them

>>50378500
They didn't FAQ the to to have four attacks, they FAQ the blood angels dreads to have four.

To be honest I would just cheat and treat them as four anyway if I were you.

>>50378309
>you've probably still heard of the Horus Heresy

And you'd also know he failed and got his ass handed to him like a bitch. You don't name your aircraft carrier the USS Hillary Clinton, now do you?

>I just think it was a poor decision for the writers to have changed the name because it cuts the Legion off from some of it's most interesting elements, and I'm wondering if they ever said why they did it.

It's even poorer decision to have the legion carry the name of a dude who fucked up. They were named the Sons of Horus in his honour, before that they were the Luna Wolves. Well, he's dead and his heresy was a failure, so there's not much honour left in that name. They could have gone back to Luna Wolves, but it probably didn't mean much to them anymore, so a new name was in order.

Keeping the name for meta reasons is even stupider. Like how all Jedi wear brown/khaki robes and have a distaste for guns because Obi-Wan was like that. Or how all Klingons long for war because of that one general in the movies wanted to die a warrior's death. It's just stupid shit fans like and want to take center stage no matter how stupid it is.

>>50378491
I'd give the flier burny stuff to try to deal with any pathfinders.

>>50378491
>>50378491

I thought you were trolling because you're oblivious to how tau work, if it's true I envy you and hope for the best against your friend. I don't know orks so that list means nothing to me, my only advice is get up in his face asap, you can't win a shooting game against him and you can't hide.

Haven't played since early 4e when I played Tau. Thinking of getting back in with a Blood Angels army for maximum rip and tear. Are they any decent?

>>50378385
Thunderhammer and powerfist, the only option.

Two power scourges is acceptable for slanessh.

>Always spell Armor "Armour" because of playing this game

>>50378597
That is because thats the correct spelling

>>50378597

It's the right way.

>>50378591

Just play normal SM but paint them red and gold senpai blood angels are the würst

>>50378220
Isn't steel rain legit BT tactic? So skyhammer annihilation or just battle company with free pods could be passable BT army with high power level, right?

>>50378623
Damn. Are there any decent assault focused armies right now then?

Blood Angels are fine, if you want Grav Cents (which are basically the only thing in SM that are good and unique) then you can ally them in

>>50378649
GSC, but only because they ignore most of the rules

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>>50378649
Genestealers

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>>50378597
i doubt most people are bothered by either spelling, really depends on what side of the pond you live

>>50378649
daemons, space wolves, gsc

>>50378649
Nope, thanks to overwatch, rare AP2 melee at initiative and tons of AP2 at range means that melee is subpar compared to shooting and your best melee units will die before they get to swing.
Not even assault transports will save you now.

Grey knights are a good assault focused army. They have trouble with 2+ armor but that's why I take a Callidus assassin with them.
But for everything else, you basic troops are removing a model every time they land a wound and they are guaranteed two shots per model in the shooting phase.

>>50378536
Incorrect.

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>>50378687

Sounds like you need a melee army that doesn't use transports then.

>>50378687
You know what is funny to me. People complain how bad 2+ saves are because the overload of ap2 guns in the game. Now one would think that this would lead into less 2+ units in the game. Yet every "melee" unit without ap2 is dogshit because reasons.

>>50378717
>>50378671
>>50378663

God, I wish I had the money for a GSC army.

>>50378687
You don't really need ap2 at initiative if you can drown the opponent in dice rolls.

10 DC = 50 dice on the charge rerolling hits and wounds.
Plus Blood Angels have two relics that are AP2 at initiative. (granted, one is for DC only)

>>50377739
Amazing

>>50376382
Only thing that could've made this better is them saying they had the courage to remove the headphone jack.

>>50377739
I don't understand why you'd want a hero base for practical purposes. Yes, they look cool but now your hero is much harder to hide behind terrain and some of those bases look fucking impossible to glue a model on with any sort of stability.

>>50378738
Replace "2+ save" with "terminators".

>>50376382
>struggling to put the cap back on
too real, GW

>>50378797
I'm pretty sure "honor guard" or "meganobz" or "mutilators" works fine too. Basically any traditional heavy infantry unit.

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>Would love a fluffy WS bike army
>either have to choose shitty looking GW ones
>Or expensive FW ones

>>50378869
Haven't seen people bitch about those, just terminators.

>>50378738
>Yet every "melee" unit without ap2 is dogshit because reasons.
ain't that because they're usually massively overpriced for their relative utility? (this goes double for units WITH 2+ saves, but that's besides the point)

A plasmagun's 15 points, and it can be reasonably expected to get a shot off at least three or four times in a game. A power fist is 25 points, and may only see one close combat the entire match.

>>50375804
no it doesnt, tau rifles are not plasma weapons as defined by the rulebook

>>50378911
Learn to convert or help China grow larger.

>>50375831
>RAW would allow plasma rifles

It wouldn't, because the rules gave you the list of weapons that benefits from it.

I picked up a Tau Infiltration Cadre [Burning Dawn] for £35
Did I do good?

>>50378921
Well, every wound that gets through in melee is in theory worth lot more than from shooting because of sweeping advance, which can lead to unit wipe with even few wounds caused. I believe this was the original design point.
Ofcourse the current state of the game isn't melee favored so all those point costs doesn't matter anymore.

>>50378790

HERO BASES

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>>50378911
There's always 3rd party stuff

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>paralyzed by choice on deciding an army

>>50378738

I'm not 100% sure but I think it's because almost every unit with ap2 melee has to forgo any kind of shooting except monstrous creatures, and the fact that decent str ap2 shooting is around prevents them from reaching combat. Hell I even take a Tantalus on my deldar lists if I know I'm against terminators.

Bikes will never be removed but they need a downside. Right now, they are just too good.
Either a point increase, removal of relentless, or snap shots over a certain move distance.

>>50379014
>so all those point costs doesn't matter anymore.
Yeah, it's a problem with all the books made 5th edition and onwards. No idea why they're still clinging to 3e costs and stats beyond dogged inertia.

>>50377351

>Chapter tactics

Are you high? That's not the same thing.

The equivalent would be asking the marine player to not use formations or a fucking Gladius parking lot.

>>50379188
Removal of +1 toughness would be fine too.

>>50379188
Bikes are good? I never liked the idea of them, but I have a few sitting in a case somewhere. Space Marines specifically. What makes them so good? Relentless and Hammer of Wrath?

>>50379188
>limit them to fast attack
ding dong done

moving them to troops was the mistake

>>50378500
For me, it's mostly just the aethsetic. Hellbrutes and Defilers just look like trash imo.

How are Forgefiends, if Maulerfiends are sub-tier?

>>50379210
+1 toughness, relentless, move distance, hammer of wrath, jink save

Right now, they are a flat out upgrade to space marines with no downside.

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>>50378911

>>50379210
Rentless, hammer of wrath, +1 toughness and 12" move.
Space marine bikes can also take two heavy weapons on a squad of 3 and don't cost that much over normal marines per bike.

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>>50378911
>>50378911

And the bikes>>50378911