Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Is there a tabletop war game for Warcraft?

>>50360529
Yes, Age of Sigmar.

>>50360490

Epic Scarlet Crusade Lore Machinima

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1CpVjR4Xvg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYxNZyR3hkk

>>50360578
It's shit.

>>50360618
Why

>>50360096
>probably a more nuclear or sickly green
>Goblins
>Not Gnomes, that nuked their own kingdom

>>50360096
>I mean, I always thought it worked like this:
>>use magic to create and fuel a fire
>>not some spirtual fire or whatever, just normal combustion
>>surround it in an 'envelope' of magic to keep the fireball semi-coherent until it hits the target
>>throw it at the unlucky schmuck in question
>>it bursts from the envelope, smothering your enemies in flame
>tapping into the Elemental planes seems real fuckin' risky, especially the Firelands of all places.
That's EXACTLY how it is supposed to work, at least according to The Last Guardian, and that's the only book that described stuff like that.

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>>50360490

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>do newest bit of Suramar questline
>Nelf and Belf camps are apparently shitposting each other
>find this

Bit confused here. Aren't they BOTH troll evos?

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>>50361277
Shitposting doesn't have to make sense.

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Scarlet Crusade is the best part of WoW.

>>50361277
>puddle of piss labeled "replacement Sunwell"
>bottle of arcwine labeled "so you don't get the shakes"
>troll mask labeled "I hope it reminds ya of home, mon"
it's like I'm actually on /int/

>>50361277
>>50361758

Honestly I don't understand why Nelves and Belves are such enemies for some reason in WoW.

Yes, there's been a religious split - 10'000 years ago. That's a fucking long time to get over your butthurt, especially when the guys who cause you butthurt decide to get an entire ocean between themselves and you so you never hear of them at all for those 10'000 years.

>b-But Belves use Arcane and even fel!

Didn't stop Nelves from being chill enough with Gnomes and Humans to join their Blue Horde.

Also Maiev, Tyrande and Malfaggy Stormcrook were pretty chill hanging out with Kael, so basically the heads of both groups featuring one yandere bitch were okay working together without much issue and we have no source of any of the people under their command being cunts at eachother.

>>50361277
>>50361858
it was Nightbourne spies false flagging to split up the joint army. The other quest you get at the same time is to knock off their disguises (complete with the same effect the detectors in Suramar use)

>>50361858
>Honestly I don't understand why Nelves and Belves are such enemies for some reason in WoW.

Because hack writers.

Assuming that you were in chare of Warcraft lore for Vanilla WoW, but you had to put the night elves in the Alliance and the Forsaken in the Horde (no putting them into the opposite factions, it has to be Night Elves-Alliance and Forsaken-Horde), how would you do it so it didn't come across as a hack job?

Bonus points for maintaining grey vs grey morality between the Alliance and the Horde

>>50361942
Night Elves are Alliance because the Horde is an immediate threat to their homelands.

Forsaken are Horde because the Alliance is an immediate threat to their homelands.

>>50361277
>BElves using Troll stuff as an insult
>when they're allied with Trolls

I don't get it.

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>>50361858
>Honestly I don't understand why Nelves and Belves are such enemies for some reason in WoW.
Newfag, please, here is some reasons
1) Highborne was exiled. Yes it was 10k years ago, but in Cataclysm NElfs accepted highbornes from Eldre'Thalas (guys who made the same shit with draining energy from Daemons during 10k years, but less succeseful).
2) BElfs starts war against NElfs in Outland
3) NElfs sends expidition into QUel'Thalas to sabotage BElfs Sanctuaries
4) BElfs make some nasty shit against NElfs in Azshara, Ashenvale and Desolace (where they use ancient Elune spell against NElfs outpost)
But mostly because BElfs says "fuck Matryarchy".

>>50361277
>Verissa
Windrunner's family was mistake.

>>50361858
Maiev likely had no choice but to ally with Blood Elves. She were outnumbered, the enemies were everywhere and of many kinds (Naga, Undead, and Demons), and their goals happened to align at the moment.

As much as Wolfheart started whole Blue Warchief bullcrap, it also had Maiev assassinating Highborne, whom she hated due to being part of the society that destroyed their glorious Empire.

I don't really remember how mad she were when Kael aided in her capture, but she were likely pretty mad.

And Night Elves before the Cataclysm were still showing dislike towards Highborne of Eldre'Thalas, when one of them arrived to talk about reunion of societies.

Also what >>50362018 wrote.

>>50361942
they did an alright job for the night elves IMO. The orcs were ruining ashenvale while the alliance actually fucked off and left. Since the elves weren't immortal anymore they decided that having more allies would be nice in case of further agression. I always saw it more of a coalition against the horde initially than a full fledged alliance, with members from both sides trying to form a more deeper pact.
The players start off neutral with the alliance member on the other continent.

>>50362002
Given what >>50361873 wrote, Nightborne likely think that NE would be more butthurt about it than BE that works with some of them.

>>50362144
Makes enough sense.

>>50362018
>3) NElfs sends expidition into QUel'Thalas to sabotage BElfs Sanctuaries
What was the NE problem with that?
BE barely joined Horde then, mostly because Alliance betrayed them, expedition to Outland was barely starting so none of the Mana Bombings in Outland would have happened yet, and yet there they are, sabotaging their Sanctums and giving more reasons to BE to resent Alliance.

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Aya Blackpaw learned how to make those from spirit of ancient Mogu: Xun, the Forgotten King.
Now that's what makes Pandaren evil by most standards: working with Mogu, even if deceased ones.

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>>50362534
Kun*

>>50362139
But would the Warsong incursions into Ashenvale really cause the night elves to drop their violent isolationism? The only real Alliance stronghold on Kalimdor outside of night elf holdings is Theramore.

Plus, night elves (or at least their druids) were on relatively good speaking terms with the tauren.

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What's gonna happen to the Kvaldir now that their Goddess is dead?

>>50362018
>2) BElfs starts war against NElfs in Outland
Kael's loyalist elves were fucking with everyone, I thought. The running idea is that Kael'thas false-flagged the attack on the Black Temple.

>>50362675
>now that their Goddess is dead?
Wut?

>>50360490

Is this slut related to that other slut who looks almost exactly like her but in white clothes? I know nothing about Warcraft lore other than what I've seen on Hearthstone cards.

>>50362675
I will openly admit: when I first landed at the Horde base on the Borean Tundra and had to enter the foggy beach with lurking kvaldir, I got spooked. They did a good job selling them as seaborne marauders who appear out of nowhere and drag you to your death.

>>50361584
Yeah.
Killing them and eating their flesh

>>50362704
She suffered a case of raid to the face after the last patch. It was fatal.

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>>50362714
Argent Confessor Paletress (in the white) is indeed a shoutout to the Scarlet High Inquisitor Whitemane (in the red), although they're not directly related. Players were exposed to Whitemane first and didn't meet Paletress until halfway through Wrath of the Lich King. Whitemane is a zealot, while Paletress is much more moderate and a peacemonger.

>>50362739
I'm pretty sure Thorim is one of the only beings to ever survive "raid to the face syndrome," mostly because he surrenders once you knock enough sense into him. Other than that, it has an infamously high mortality rate.

>>50362743
Whitemane is now also a death knight, and death seems to have made her slightly more reasonable.

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>>50362743
>>50362795
That's correct. Whitemane died because she was the final boss of the early version of the Scarlet chapel dungeons, and in Legion, the death knights decided to bring her back as one of the new Four Horsemen. Apparently, death cooled her off a little, though she still claims a fervent connection to the Light.

>>50362762
Kael'thas too, a raid to the face proved to be merely a setback

>>50362843
>wears pants now

Garbage.

>>50362859
To Hogger as well.
And to several other characters. Even to Scarlet Crusade, Undeath is merely a setback!
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Merely_a_setback

>>50362743

But can you beat up Paletress and steal her hat?

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>>50362675

>>50362843

That's her? That's an incredibly generic design. Seriously, where is the hat at least? Or any part of her previous design/anything identifiable. White Hair on a death knight isn't exactly an uncommon feature.

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>>50362928
Paletress herself is indeed a random boss you can get in the Argent Tournament raid. Unfortunately, you cannot take her hat from her; you can get her belt, though.

You can also transmog to get an outfit that's super close to hers.

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>>50362962
Her white hair ("Whitemane") WAS her defining physical feature.

>>50362997
Transmog in question.
http://www.wowhead.com/outfit=3073/argent-confessor-paletress

>>50362997

>Unfortunately, you cannot take her hat from her

Boo, no fair.

>>50363017

>Her white hair ("Whitemane") WAS her defining physical feature.

Yeah, the issue there is that it's a very generic feature on a deathknight as they tend towards whites and blacks. So Deathknight Whitemane really could have done with a more inspired design to look like who she's supposed to be rather than Deathknight #372

The Argent Tournament had to have been in the top 5 stupidest things to happen in the WoW world christ...

>Lets stop the war and have a tournament on the enemy's front steps to see whos the best to go inside.
No. Just no.

>>50363087
Just give her actually white hair instead of light grey

And a replacement chapeau

That we can loot from her

>>50363175
I was gonna say, people aren't going to immediately recognize Whitemane if she isn't wearing her signature red chapeau. Maybe she'll trade it in for a black one, since she's a death knight and all.

>>50362666
>relatively
being the keen word.
the cenarion circle is a neutral organization.
the horde regularly invade into night elf lands and the night elves aren't as powerful as they were when they were forest demigods.

>>50362843
>Apparently, death cooled her off a little,

>There is no greater hatred and scorn in this world than that which exists in my heart.

>The Burning Legion will pay for all that they have taken from me.

>The day of my judgment awaits, but theirs is at hand and I will be the executioner's blade. I will not rest until every demon lays dead, their corpses paving the very ground I walk!

>Command me to the front, Deathlord and I will rain terror upon the armies of the Burning Legion!

"cooled down" is a relative term in this case

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>>50363171
The Argent Tournament was meant to be a rallying effort to keep morale up and, indeed, pick out the absolute best coalition champions to send at Icecrown Citadel when the final showdown was set to begin.

Mechanically, you should remember that the Argent Tournament was originally supposed to be set up in the Crystalsong Forest, directly beneath Dalaran. Blizzard realized fairly quickly that such a massive concentration of people in a single area would CRASH THE ZONE. Thus, the tournament was relocated to the northern border between Icecrown and the Storm Peaks.

And, of course, the Argent Tournament was the first patch done after Ulduar, when half the dev team was shunted off to work on the now-failed "Project Titan," which was repurposed into what we know today as Overwatch.

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Given the losses the Sentinels have taken over the years, are Male Night Elf Warriors a thing in canon? I know Jarod Shadowsong pulls it off quite well, but is there anyone else?

Come to think of it, Jarod's just a great dude in general.

Also asking because I'm rolling an alt warrior.

>>50363321
>losses
mean nothing.

>>50362890
>No plate skirts
Unfortunate.

>>50363417
half of the pally tiers in the game are plate skirts though..

>>50363017
God, I fucking hate how the hats and hair just don't work together at all, is there a mod/ add-on that lets me have hair and hat?

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>>50362843
She really needs the tiny hat, they could just make some sort of recolor and add a small skull on it.

>>50363321

Would the Sentinels be Warriors? They are archers and glaive throwers.

Also: With Trolls and Night Elves both having a strong racial culture of it, it's criminal that hunters don't have throwing weapons as a class weapon option.

>>50363584
Yeah but the second they give her the hat, 5 paladins are gonna kick down the door, yell, "JUSTICE 4 TYRION", stomp on her face and steal the hat.

>>50363321
They should be canon, just as Female Druids and Male Priests of Elune are canon, and there is a figurine from Archeology about the latter two.

Loses of Sentinels are insignificant in comparison to loses that Blood Elves suffered in wars, which is why only after Cataclysm Blood Elves had Warriors available once again.

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>>50363616
>5 paladins are gonna kick down the door, yell, "JUSTICE 4 TYRION",
>tfw doing the new Suramar quests as a Horde DK

>>50363749
>Liadrin's suddenly cool with you

I'll take it

>>50363784
we gave the ret pally a cool sword so it's ok I guess
she was the only one I felt bad about desu. All other paladins can go fuck themselves, but she was cool in Auchindoun

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>>50363749

I saw one of those Wyrmtongue artificiers and a nightborne child talking to each other near the docks where that Doomguard was on stage. What the hell is going on in that city?

>>50363966
>I saw one of those Wyrmtongue artificiers and a nightborne child talking to each other
>LEGIONED.com

Was out of game 2months, new Suramar questlines starts after rep grind, or after Dungeon quests?

>>50364180
Questline starts after you do "A Change of Seasons"

>>50364203
>"A Change of Seasons"
What?

>>50364406
You get access to the new questline after you complete this chain http://www.wowhead.com/quest=43502/a-change-of-seasons

Are there any places besides the official site and the various wikis that give you a good feel for the lore and culture of each race?

I'm thinking about trying out the starter edition of WoW or even just buying it since it's on sale for $5 and think I'm going to roll a shaman since it's the only other hybrid class besides druid which I feel drawn to. Trying to decide between Draenei and Troll, former mostly for the female model and latter because it feels like shaman really gels with them characterwise.

>>50364544
Playing the game is a good spot to experience the lore first hand

However especially at lower levels, you don't actually get "the lore" in its entirety. You're a little shit in a mass of little shits who only get a glimpse of current events and you'll be spending much more time doing smallscale quests like "These fuckfaces are stealing shit from our village. Go kill 12 of them and their leader, set four of their houses on fire then proceed to smear dogfeces over eight of their silos to show them who's boss!"

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>>50363982

Please think of the children whose parents you kill next time your illusion gets detected

>>50365851
Wait until Orphans week, that's the one week of the year you're allowed to make us feel bad for slaughtering their parents and not giving a fuck about the children because fuck you if you're not allied one way or the other

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>>50365946
>Take orphan to Wyrmrest Temple in the Dragonblight
>Orphan gets to meet Alexstraza, the dragon queen
>"You can turn into a dragon? Lemme see!"
>Alex chuckles, "If I did, none of us would be able to fit up here."
She's good in my book.

>>50364926

Guess I could try rolling each.

I have a confession to make.

I started playing on a private server recently. I used to be a huge, massive orcfag back in retail BC before I quit, and I've always been incredibly focused on them as race and culture.

Now I rolled a Tauren and I love them so much, I can't for the live of mine figure out why I sucked green cock so much back in the day. I just wanna kick all green cucks off Kalimdor.

I miss Cairne so god damn much.

>>50368177

Well atleast you didnt miss out much. Outside of Mulgore and the zones surrounding around it there is no taurent related stuff whatsoever. No famous NPCs, no lore, no development, nothing whatsoever. Unless you want to count the atrocious "tauren paladin" debacle in which case you need to find a fire and die in it.

>>50368244

I think at Blizzcon they said the next Chronicles would have more Tauren stuff.

>>50368244
Highfuckingmountain

>>50365851
that's why I always give my arcan'dor fruit to the orphan that walks around the loop

>>50368244
What's wrong with Sunwalkers?

>>50368502
SHAN RONIR
GO KISS A TAUREN

>>50360529

The ill-fated Warcraft TCF game.

This reminds me that I need to save up some more gold and buy a token before my sub expires. Prices hot up to 57K now. Geez.

>>50368735
ignore the triggered night elf posts desu

FATE or homebrewed D&D 5E for a Warcraft tabletop game?

I'm leaning FATE because I think a few players want to do something outside of the 11 class dynamic.

>>50369706
I've heard FATE bounced around as a suggestion before but never played it so I can't say. A lot of the 5E classes also don't match up perfectly with their WoW counterparts either

>>50369706
I'd use Mutants & Masterminds and be done with it.

>>50368177
Why do you hate orcs if you love tauren?

Remember, it is thanks to orcs that tauren are merely rare, rather than extinct outside of Feralas. Without help from the orcs, the quilboar and centaur would have wiped them out

>>50369706
Log Horizon or D&D 4e for a combat-heavy game, FATE for anything else

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>>50370602
Mean green machine, pls stop

page 10 bumpu

>>50368244
So, you want him to join the Yaungol and become avatar of Ordos?

>>50368735

They exist.

>>50373046
yaungol were so goofy.
like fluffy yakmen :3

>>50370602
only the Bloodhoof tribe. The Grimtotems were never under threat from anything other than other tauren tribes getting tired of their shit

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>>50366107
>The BC orphan quest where you take the Blood Elf kid to the Caverns of Time and she nearly gets wrecked by the dragons due to the stuff her future self will do.

Really wonder what's gonna happen with her in the future

>>50374770
probably nothing, Bronzeshitters probably just wanted to seem useful

>tfw no alternate-alternate history where the Ironmarch successfully conquers Azeroth (the continent) and Koramar and Zoggosh lead a naval campaign against the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde to punish them for their betrayal

So the free month of game time you get from Blizzard for buying WoW digitally, does that come as a code or take effect immediately?

Assuming there are no benefits to physical, I think I'm still going to buy it since it's only $5, but it'll be a bit disappointing if I'm basically going to be forced to either play or piss away the free time.

>>50375965
I'm pretty sure it starts immediately, or as soon as you install the game and log in. I'm not sure

>>50376027

I had the feeling that might be the case, may have to just check with Blizzard to be sure. Right now I have two WoW accounts, one for the main game which I apparently got at some point and one for the starter edition. the only one eligible for the $5 upgrade is the latter which kind of fucks me over if I upgrade, don't get around to playing for a month, and than have to pay $15 to just try. Whereas with the starter I can play as much as I want up to the limitations.

>>50376102
yeah, it'd be nice if the game only counted your /played time, but Blizzard makes significantly fewer shekels that way, so it wouldn't happen

>demon hunter class campaign and even their own artifact knowledge tome is all about how every demon hunter other than Illidan is doomed to eventually join the Legion
>muh sacrifice
bravo Kanye

>>50376869
>Altruis is secretly working for Legion since TBC and his job is to get as many DHs curupted as possible
>Sending players against Forge Camps was a false-flag operation, as most demons won't die anyway
I knew you can't trust him!

>>50370602
I can still appreciate the green chimps for helping my bovine brothers out in a pinch while disapproving their one-sided martial mentality that I see thrown around with their NPCs.

I realise I do them injustice because it's really difficult to portray a variety of characters with pre-recorded lines. It doesn't change that I just feel annoyed by a constant BLOOD AND THUNDER thrown my way whenever I try to sell a bunch of craploot or try and help them out when they offer a quest.

I'm just amazed how they still are the same and I love everything they technically have (tribal culture with the determination to fight when necessary and not hold back when the decision is made) but I'm repelled by the execution of their values.

As it is, Thrall really seemed like the only orc who ever had a plan and a mind outside of fighting for its own sake.

>>50374739
To this day I mourn that Grimtotem are just the strawmen assholes of the Tauren to imply some ambiguity in their moral, as well.

I wanted to RP my Tauren as Grimtotem but I picked the wrong furcolour so now I'm gray with black specks instead of pure black

Magatha is, once again, wasted potential in that she could have been an excellent character that both opposes and complements Cairne's rule.

I still ship those two and nobody has the source to prove that Magatha is angry at Cairne because he didn't slam that puss on a regular basis.

Tauren female ingame models give me furious erections

So, what are the celestials doing?

>>50374770
blizzard already forgot.

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>>50377369

Someone at Blizzard had a serious hard on for Tauren this expansion

I still remember those two Orc guards at Razor Hill talking about Tauren Women.

The biggest knockers on Azeroth

>>50378413

I really expected them to break it out in Legion, considering the entire thing of the expansion pack is 'MEMBER BC? 'MEMBER WOTLK? YEAH I 'MEMBER!!

>>50378632
>Homemade

Hnnnnnnngngngngngngn

>>50378632
Better than their usual scat fetish game designer. I swear to god we get a fucking poop quest/joke/reference every single expansion.

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Pick my Pally name for me, /tg/:

http://www.strawpoll.me/11724799
http://www.strawpoll.me/11724799
http://www.strawpoll.me/11724799

>>50378632

Razor Hill? Are you thinking about the guys on the ride to Stonetalon, where one of them says how he loves tauren women and the other calls him sick and laughs? Or did I miss out on something?

>>50377369

You know tauren can change their fur color at the barber, right?

>>50378890
I'm on a TBC private server, they don't have that shit yet implemented, right?

>>50360490
Can someone tl;dr on how the setting explains the different source of magic? I get that mages, druids, shamans and paladins all get their powers from different sources but that's the only thing I got.

>>50368177
>>50377369
>>50378632

Hey, know something? Cairne was 99 at the time of Warcraft III. At the same time, Baine wasn't an adult yet - he became one in the time between then and the start of WoW.

So Cairne was still giving free rides to the ladies in his 80s.

>>50378936
Cairne would have made the Horde great again.

>>50378895

Ok, got you.

>>50378930

The actual sources of magic are kind of vague, and have been subject to confusing retcons. And the thing is, the sources of the magic aren't really that important! Though each class in-game has different spells for mechanical reasons, in-lore, most spellcasters can do a pretty good job imitating other classes' specific spell effects.

For example, far sight is a shaman spell in WoW, was a priest spell in an earlier game (IIRC), and was imitated by Khadgar (a mage) in one of the books. So, there you have a person using elemental/nature magic, a person using Light magic and a person using Arcane magic all using the same spell. The different sources of magic don't so much have exclusive access to certain effects so much as they are better or worse at producing certain kinds. Like, a shadow priest who uses the power of the Void probably can't throw fire around, but arcane mages, warlocks, shamans, paladins/priests and even some (non-playable) druids can.

Further complication: not all in-game classes draw from the same source, even though they have access to the same spells. Priests are the most egregious example of this: you can get four different "holy priests" casting the same holy light-themed healing spells, but you could have one draw power from the Light, one from a moon goddess, one from the sun, and one from a voodoo spirit.

>>50379148
In WC1 both Clerics and Necrolytes had Far Sight, but with appropriate flavour. In WC2 it was a Paladin Spell, though it was called "Holy Vision" there. In WC3 though it was a Far Seer spell and had the exact name Far Sight, so it was very firmly in Shaman territory there.

>>50379148
>For example, far sight is a shaman spell in WoW, was a priest spell in an earlier game (IIRC)

Nah it was a Farseer (the shaman-like hero in warcraft 3) spell. Dunno if previous games had a similar power for priests, or priests at all.

>>50378930
>>50379148

If you just want a tl;dr list of the sources, though, my estimate of the basic lineup is:

-The Light (healing, strengthening, holy fire, the unified spirit of all life, mostly good stuff but there is that fanatic "purge the unclean" element)
- the Void (shadow magic, pain, mind control, concealment, associated with madness elder god type entities mostly, but also a chill protective raven god)
- Arcane magic (used by classic wizards mostly, associated with beings called the Titans, who are sort of order-themed. Generally the most reliable and versatile form of magic that doesn't make any demands beyond personal willpower and skill. Kind of addictive and a bit mutagenic, turned trolls into elves)
- Fel magic (used by warlocks, associated with demons, sort of chaos and destruction themed. Is actually basically the same as arcane magic but much more powerful, with the tradeoff of also being much harder to control and much more addictive/mutagenic, eventually turns you into a demon basically)
- Elemental nature magic (fire, earth, air, water, et cetera. From Cata on the impression has been more that shaman make deals with elementals to make use of their power, but in earlier lore including some pretty key novels there were "spirits of the elements" who were more vague and benevolent in a distant way. It is also implied that there is non-sentient elemental energy just lying around that can be channeled, and "dark shamans" can bend elementals to their will by raw force)
- Living nature magic (plants and animals, basically works the same as elemental nature magic but with different spirits involved. Shamans focus more on elemental and druids more on nature but in reality they both work pretty much the same way and cross lines with each other a lot.)

There are other sub-types on the periphery of these, like death magic is basically on an edge between Void and Arcane with maybe a little Fel, at least as far as I can tell.

>>50378890

Right, Stonetalon. It's been years since I was down that way.

>>50378856
Bob.

>>50379223

That's the stuff. The basic point is, the source of your magic energy isn't very closely related to what spells you can cast, you can plug any source of power into any spell and stand a decent chance that it will still work. Not in all cases, and probably not as well as it did with the source most suited to it, but it'll probably be able to do something.

That's why, for example, so many orc shamans were able to become warlocks without needing to re-learn everything from the ground up. Basically any other spellcasting class can become a warlock just by jamming some Fel energy into the spells they already use, and they'll generally be able to intuit how more specialized warlock spells work to some degree from their experience with other sources of power.

Same thing with deathknights, if they knew how to cast spells when they were alive (a lot of deathknights used to be paladins, for example), they can pretty easily get a grip on how to use their new cold shadowy arcaneish magic.

>>50379427
That said, it can't be overstated just how esoteric certain schools are. Druidism and shamanism are the two most exclusive schools of magic, since they both have certain traditions that no one else can reasonably follow.

Reminder that it was WC3 that turned the Orcs into Dindus.

>>50381684

You mean the game with the cutscene where Grom explicitly goes "Hey Thrall you know how mad you were that the warlocks tricked us into doing the dew? J/K LOL WE TOTALLY KNEW WHAT WE WERE DOING THE WHOLE TIME"?

>>50381684
Kinda sad. Im okay with them being forced in an alliance against the UD and Burning legion but them being friendly shamans that got corrupted was too much. It wouldve made a much better story if they were a plundering warlike race (kind of like the Huns) to offset their lack of fertile ground on their homeworld. As was eluded to in the WC1 manual. The story of them trying to settle permanently in a new land where they try to reform wouldve been good. And for fucks sake them taking in the desert regions of kalimdor is stupid. They went through the swamps of sorrow from their blasted homeland to the humans to get their rich lands. Then when you get to the other side of the ocean you dont fucking settle in a desert.

>>50381751
I think he means the part where they were corrupted and had shamanic traditions.

>>50381684
But WC3 was always Thrall thinking his people were better than they were.

It's like somebody going to a crackhouse and convincing themselves that the people were forced to smoke crack and then finds out his crackhead mates knew what they were doing the whole time.

Settling in a desert is pretty retarded through. Feralis would have been a much better choice.

>>50381769

It's retcon confusion. If I'm remembering right from (I think) the Rexxar campaign, then originally, you see, the orcs supposedly settled in Durotar because it was the closest environment to their original home on Draenor. Because, at that time, the most recent depiction was WCII: Through the Dark Portal, where all of draenor really was portrayed like that.

WoW, much less TBC, came a lot later, and it was only then that they had to think and go "actually there's probably more to it than that". But by then the orcs being settled in Durotar was canon already.

>>50381778
>>50381769

I'm pretty sure there was some reference to orc shamans as far back as the WCII manual. From Gul'dan's backstory, I think?

>>50381843
>the most recent depiction was WCII: Through the Dark Portal, where all of draenor really was portrayed like that.
Yes it was, but in WC1 it is stated that the human country is rich and the orcs came from the swamp of sorrows (or beyond) and started plundering. And in WC2 I think it was expanded upon they wanted the human riches. So why settle in a desert region if you want riches. They didnt seem to connected to their original lands. Hell their pig farms arent too useful if the pigs cant eat anything.

And apart from that any worldbuilder worth shit understands that settling in a desert region isnt first choice. There is either loads of luxury resources that are worth trading (even then there would be small villages excavating them, not cities) or people are nomads that cannot find a good place to settle.

>>50381684

> Are called a noble race corrupted by demons
> Gets cow Redskin sidekicks who are total noble savages
> Metzen's pet Thrall is one of the only characters who does what Medivh says when he's doing his ranting hobo act (the other being Greenburner Jaina)

>WC3 Orcs weren't Dindus Giiz

>>50381861
Yeah the orcs were always shamanistic and always warlike, even before the demons had them by the balls.

Not sure how it is with WoW lore but orcs had ravaged Draenor and genocided their enemies before Gul'dan started making pacts with demons and opened the portal so the horde wouldnt destroy itself and so he could get Sargeras' power.

I blame Thrall for the pussyfication of the horde.

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>>50381956
>Greenburner

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>>50381861

pre-WC3 Lore had Shamans as into the Dark Arts (see Necromancy). See the Lord of the Clans game where Thrall uses his Shaman spell to build a bridge of bone.

>>50382009

WoD had shown us that the orcs were always warlike assholes and the whole dindu thing is a sham. Thrall was raised by humans and he was thinking as a green human instead of an orc. Then his infatuation with Grom let the Warsong clan reignite the conflict between the Alliance and Horde and eventually put a complete moron on the throne who would have completely destroyed the Horde if not for author fiat at the end of SoO. Thrall was either always cartoonishly incompetent at handling diplomacy or just a huge hypocrite and he supported the warlike horde just as hard but tried to preserve the noble savage image.

>>50382009
In Warlords at least the Orcs are still mostly a bunch of warlike dickbags on AU Draenor way before Gul'dan ever approached them, but the Draenei kept them in check with their superior technology and the Ogres in this Draenor weren't retarded (quite the opposite - they're almost as advanced magically as the Elves in Azeroth) and enslaved them.

Technically none of that is hard canon though since the Draenor in WoD is technically an alternate universe or some shit. Intellectually advanced ogres was a good idea though and Blizzard didn't really go anywhere with it.

>>50382129

> but the Draenei kept them in check with their superior technology

I'll wait to see how they finally retcon the Draenei Genocide so it works with what we've seen the Draenei.

>>50382218
I liked the way the movie handled it, the orcs had destroyed Draenor and killed the Draenei with the aid of Demons and the Fel, its a good compromise of old and new lore where the Orcs were probably at constant war with the Draenei but lacked a final solution until the Shadow Council arrived with demon magic.

This way you can have your savage orcs, your super Draenei and still have a reason for Gul'dan to rise in power and defeating the Draenei into almost extinction.

>>50382218
>I'll wait to see how they finally retcon the Draenei Genocide so it works with what we've seen the Draenei.
it never happened at all. When the Orcs drank the Kool-Aid, the draenei went into hiding, then when God-King Illidan showed up, he told them they had to go to Azeroth to help form the Army of the Light and a bunch of them got lost on the way to the Exodar

>>50382533
>God-King Illidan
you mean illidan the betrayer illidan?

Actually I dont want to know

>>50382543
>you mean illidan the betrayer illidan?
don't you know that Illidan was actually the one who got betrayed?
fuck that dumbass wind chime, I hope she's Kil'jaeden

>>50382543
Are you suggesting that Illidan is not the greatest of all elves and everything else?

Illidan (phuh), has sacrificed everything, what have you given?

>>50382593

>naaru remaining on Argus for thousands of years
>speaks physically unlike the telepathy of other naaru
>manages to control illidan perfectly by sucking up to his ego

but nah it wont be killy jay, that would be good writing. get used to golden boi illybeans and work on your form

>>50382923
>and work on your form
>tfw Illidan doesn't say "heh, amateur" when he kills Gul'dan
>tfw he doesn't even make a snarky quip about his skull

>>50362675
Some of them might join their brethren under the Lich King. Some might work for whatever new ruler of Helheim Odyn installs. And some might just keep marauding for marauding's sake.

>>50378936
Makes sense, he was tough as nails and a very wise and respected leader, chances are he had loads of kids

Chances are that they all died fighting quilboar or centaur except for Baine, his youngest.

>>50362843

She didn't seem like the physical type in life, certainly not one to wield one of the XBOXHUEG WoW swords.

>>50362843

This fucking REEKS of desperation and trying to appeal to nostalgia.

Its like blizzard suit sat down to a table and went through everything they think players would find cool.

>what kids like these days illidan?
>oh yes, definitely get illidan in here
>people liked whitemane
>but shes dead
>just turn her into a death knight i dunno, do the same thing to nazgrim, people liked him too
>done, lets turn them into a naxx nostalgia thing as a new four horsemen thingie or something maybe?
>how about vrykul? norse gods? some more ulduar stuff?
>sure, throw them in
>emerald dream maybe? people keep expecting it to be the next expansion pack since vanilla
>we got it, lets throw in xavius
>didnt he die in a book or something?
>who cares
>metzen barges in
>GUYS *SNORTS* WHAT IF GUYS HERE YOU GUYS WHAT IF, GUYS YOU GET THIS GUYS WHAT IF A DRAGON ASPECT GETS CORRUPTED AND NEEDS TO BE KILLED
>fucking brilliant!
>how does he do it!?

Can we customize the new class mounts? At least choosing the colour would be fine.

>>50384397
How is it that Warcraft has spent more time under Kosak than Metzen, and yet people still blame Metzen for Kosak's garbage writing decisions?

>>50379035
He was gonna build a wall, and the Centaurs would pay for it!

>>50381684
>>50381956
>>50381814
I want a Warcraft without Thrall and the Dindus
give me back the old Mongolian demon worshippers.

>>50385309
>Implying kosak wrote all of this

>>50382115
>pre-WC3 Lore had Shamans as into the Dark Arts (see Necromancy). See the Lord of the Clans game where Thrall uses his Shaman spell to build a bridge of bone.
Toi be fair, Bones are pretty common in spirit magic stuff, it's not like souls were bound to the bridge.

If they're gonna use bones as jewelry why not use it for architecture

>>50363321
Still mad that Artifacts mean players can't loot the updated version of his fucking sword. I love heavy cleaving swords like that.

>>50385351
They did actually build a wall (it's a gate but it never opens) blocking the path from Mulgore and the Barrens,

>>50385192
Some classes change (priest's turns shadow in shadow, shamans get different elementals between specs) but no one knows the whole deal yet

>>50385309
Because Metzen is a giant fucking meme while the Eternal Dwarf is a literal who that nobody cares about

>>50385743
Intercourse thyself.

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>>50378930

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>>50386792
>>50378930
Shamans communicate with the Elements. Mages use Arcane (with Fire being gathering heat in a place to ignite air, while Frost would be opposite). Warlocks use Fel through powering his spells with souls or blood (sometimes his own). Druids use their connection to Nature. Paladins, Holy Priests, and Discipline Priests are using their faith and conviction to connect to the Light, while Shadow Priests use more malicious power of the Void. Necromancy is Death magic.

>>50363289
Chill as death, the only warmth is rot and hatred and blood boiling in our rotten cuirasses.
T. Deathlord

>>50381861
Ner'zhul was known as Elder Shaman, while Chieftain of the Dragonmaw Clan, Zuluhed the Whacked, was known as the last/one of the last Orc that was still a shaman in era of the Horde, with most of them switching to Warlock.

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>>50381843
Well, Zangarmarch was likely already canon back in Warcraft 2, at least judging by Planestation's map for the Draenor

>>50382129
WoD is still sharing majority of history with prime timeline, except that all the changes were significant enough for butterfly effect.
Ner'zhul's wife was alive, so Kil'jeaden contacted Gul'dan from the start, and Kool-Aid was involved at the start, not before the final battle against Draenei. Ner'zhul became evil-ish because he was forced by Grom's ultimatum to use power of Dark Star, so lot of Void energies.

Garrosh was not born, so Grom had no kids.

In main timeline, Cho'Gall was first Ogre-Magi (which means having two heads) in couple of generations, which means that Emperor Mar'gok was likely not born in main timeline, so not only one Emperor was slain by Kargath Bladefist, but also another was killed by Grommash, and then the Orcs that had more reasons to war against Gorian Empire have defeated Empire without Ogre-Magi Emperor leading it.

There are probably more, but I can't think of any at the moment.

I refuse to treat change in backstory of Fenris Wolfbrother as canon, as it doesn't even add up with the TBC or Beyond the Dark Portal (game, manual, or novelization).

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>>50382009
Rise of the Horde (I remember it the most right now), order of events that are relevant:
Ner'zhul's wife died some years ago.
Eredar agent located Draenei on Draenor.
Kil'jeaden decides to use Orcs to have revenge on Velen, like a yandere he is.
Kil'jeaden pretends to be Ner'zhul's waifu's spirit (despite her not being a Shaman) for a while talking with him, convincing him that Draenei are plotting against the Orcs (convincing, as they are secretive bunch). Somehow had to do the same with Shamans of other Clans, as they confirms it.
Orcs slays couple of Draenei hunting parties with help of Shamans and Elements aids them.
Velen goes to talk with Orcs, goes to Genedar/Oshu'gun (holy place of Orcs, due to spirits of their Ancestors gathering there), gets captured by Durotan, who barely decided to release Velen and take what he had with himself (one of the Ata'mal crystals; the other got invisible so Velen kept it), and for a moment he was eager to kill Velen, because he claimed that the only reason spirits of Orc Ancestors are at Oshu'gun is because "some kind of Draenei God (read: Naaru Ku're, who was in darkened state) was drawing them and using their energies to heal.
Draenei decide to fight back, their Mages doing work, because it comes in time with Elements no longer cooperating.
Ner'zhul figures out something's wrong and pussies out. Kil'jeaden finds more wiling disciple in Gul'dan.
Gul'dan finds co-conspirators in Blackhand, Chieftain of Blackrock, Kargath Bladefist of Shattered Hand, and later in Cho'Gall of Twilight's Hammer. He teaches Shamans of Blackrock in way of Warlock.
Fel Power > Arcane. Orcs are getting green.
Blackhand and Grommash has the most victories, but Blackhand is more experienced, Warlocks were first from his Clan, and he's most respected, so he's installed as the Warchief of freshly formed Horde.
Orcs takes over one Draenei fortress after another.
1/2 (?)

>>50387163
Gul'dan's Shadow Council (consisting of most Warlocks loyal to him, Cho'Gall, and Kargath Bladefist) makes Temple of Karabor as their seat of power - Black Temple.
Orcs build Hellfire Fortress in Talador/Hellfire Peninsula, as a seat of power of Horde that can fit in all the Clans.
Mannoroth arrives in Black Citadel and gives his blood to finish the connection between Orcs and Legion. Quite sure Gul'dan and most of his Warlocks are not drinking it to maintain full ability to use their intellect.
Ner'zhul is ignored for quite a while, but still keeps company to his former disciple. Warns Durotan that Gul'dan wants to offer Clansblood of dae'mon = evil spirit.
On the Throne of Kil'jeaden in Hellfire Penninsula, Gul'dan offers Kool-Aid. He and Durotan never got along, so he don't want to make his Clan to drink it early, because some Clans could follow.
Gul'dan is about to offer Kool-Aid to Blackhand, but suddenly Grommash gives his scream, and takes it first, with his Clan following suit. Grom gets from lean and loud Orc to still lean, but burlier (wider shoulders among stuff) and his scream gains quite a lot of decibels more.
Blackhand's turn, he, Rend, and Maim drinks, Clan's following suit, Orgrim says he doesn't deserve honour that his Chieftain takes.
Frostwolves of Durotan are the last Clan to receive offer, Durotan refuses and forbids his Clan to drink.
Orcs goes to attack Shattrath.
War is won. Bones of Draenei are used to make rode from Hellfire Penninsula to Dark Portal, which is powered by sacrificing Draenei kids and other prisoners.

Oh, and at some point Ogres joins Horde after Orgrim serving as envoy to Ogres in Blade's Edge Mountains with offer that they will help them throw shackles of servitude under the leash of the Gronn.

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>>50387245

>>50382593
>>50382692
No I meant that Illidan actually had anything to do with the dreanei.

>>50382294
Read Rise of the Horde. It did exactly that, with actually not contradicting the lore in any way.

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>>50362018
>3) NElfs sends expidition into QUel'Thalas to sabotage BElfs Sanctuaries

Uh, no. Even the belf quest givers say that all evidence shows that the Night Elf infiltrators were gathering information, not sabotaging. The ley line diverting was simply so unpredictable and dangerous that it was bound to screw up on it's own.

But lets not get that ball rolling again. The entire reasoning behind the Blood Elves joining forces with the very people that tried to annihilate them, desecrated their lands, corrupted their ancient runestones, and started the downward spiral of the High Elves was asinine.

Because apparently establishing an espionage ring to keep track of actions even it;s own participants said was stupidly risky is an insult never to be forgiven, but two attempts at genocide and the eternal corruption of their homeland is just water under the bridge.

>>50387318
It was dem demons that forced orcs to do it and Forsaken totes aren't like the Scourge.

>>50387318
>lets not get that ball rolling again. The entire reasoning behind the Blood Elves joining forces with the very people that tried to annihilate them, desecrated their lands, corrupted their ancient runestones, and started the downward spiral of the High Elves was asinine

They were basically strong armed into it by Sylvanas. Since Kael'Thas left with a large chunk of their best warriors and mages and the heart of the Scourge's forces outside of Northrend was literally parked outside their front door the choice was "accept Forsaken help" or "get horribly massacred".

They only became part of the Horde because the Forsaken were part of it. Remember Blood Elves start out friendly with Forsaken and Blood Elves and Neutral with the rest. And it's not like the Alliance was doing anything to help them at the time either.

>>50387348
>cucksaken motivation
YUMMY YIMMY ROTTEN ELVEN CUNNY
>Glorious Scourge
AZEROTH WILL SURVIVE, BY SARONITE OR PLAGUE THE ENEMIES OF THE TRUE KING WILL FALL. BEWARE LEGION AND VOIDLORDS YOU HAVE BEEN CITED TO COURT.

>>50387512

I'm pretty sure the Horde membership was Kael's command from sometime during the Vanilla years. He returned from Outland at least once, he's the one who taught the Azerothian Belves how to use Warlock techniques, how to siphon energy from demons to feed their hunger, and brought back the Naaru to form the Blood Knights. He commands them to work to join the Horde, and then gets back to Outland while Lor'themar executes his order over the course of several years.

Kael had every reason to distrust the Alliance after what happened and after he was forced to throw in his lot with Illidan, plus the Alliance didn't have resources or incentive or strategic location to help with their immediate problems. He also knew he had a lot to offer the Horde in terms what with their magic skill and technology and knowledge of Light-based magic and strategic location to aid the Forsaken. Plus whatever team-up he had planned was a temporary thing that was just intended to keep his peeps alive and given them the resources they needed to finish migrating to Outland, so why not go for what you percieve to be the biggest possible short-term payoff?

And of course, once they made that deal the bridge was burnt, so they were stuck with what Kael made them pick. Luckily given how things have played out its relatively easy for the average Belf citizen to conclude that that the Horde are better allies than the Humans ever were anyway. Its been a long time since the Troll Wars baby, and what have you done for me lately?

>>50387615
>He returned from Outland at least once, he's the one who taught the Azerothian Belves how to use Warlock techniques, how to siphon energy from demons to feed their hunger, and brought back the Naaru to form the Blood Knights.
Didn't he just send Rommath to do all those?

>>50387676

Maybe. Either way though, I'm fairly certain (and it makes the most logical sense) that the command to join the Horde came from Kael, through Rommath if not directly.

So if the Naga were playable, they'd be Horde?

>>50387766

Maybe. We were told Azshara only controls one faction of the Naga, and its been hinted that Naga have been trying to take over Kul Tiras for years while they've been in isolation. I could see that faction throwing in with the Horde if Jaina doesn't get killed anytime soon but stays kind-of-evil.

>>50363171
and yet, the Argent Tournament had some of the most fun content I've found in WoW, especially the higher end dailies.

Like, it felt like you were part of an elite and united group, going out to wage war on the lich king. Just speaking personally, it built up so much hype for ICC dropping that nothing since has really matched the feeling of charging in the first time.

>>50381861
That was kind of brought up again in wc3 with the farseers. They were fuck old shamans that went into hiding instead of drinking the cool aid.

>>50387245
>Mannoroth arrives in Black Citadel and gives his blood to finish the connection between Orcs and Legion.
wasn't that at the Throne of Kil'jaeden, or did BC invent that?

>>50361858
>Yes, there's been a religious split - 10'000 years ago.
Elves live that long.

>the 3 factions in the eternal war are the Legion, the Void, and mortals/the Army of the Light
>the Legion makes heavy use of enslaved voidwalkers and mortal races infused with fel energy as foot soldiers
>mortals have demon hunters (mortals who have consumed demons to wield their power against the Legion) and shadow priests (cultists who wield the void's power for good)
when the void invasion starts fully, are we gonna see Kool-aided and humaniod voidwalkers?

>>50381769
>Then when you get to the other side of the ocean you dont fucking settle in a desert.
America called, says you don't know nothing

I fucking love shadow priests this xpack. The Sanctum of the Void in Netherlight Temple, knife waifu, the cackling one does when transformed into Voidform, Surrender to fucking Madness, those cute cloudy tentacles when using Dispersion...

Give me lore stuff. Gimme!

>>50388398
We've already seen both.

WoD HFC had a big void creature infused with fel that was ripping the place apart, and Ethereals are one infusion away from turning into voidwalkers.

>>50365851
Fuck the nightborn. I have no love, patience or pity for yet another sect of isolationist magical faggot elves. For god only knows why my first exposure to the withered in Azuna soured me completely on the entire race. I hate their arrogance, their utter dependency and perhaps their cowardice in choosing to hide

>>50388370
Orcs drinking it at Throne of Kil'jeaden starts a bit later, not sure if Mannoroth arriving at Throne of Kil'jeaden was stated in TBC.

>>50388384
No, they don't.Anasterian Sunstrider (father of Kael) was quite old by their standards, but he still were son/grandson of Dath'remar.

All other Elves had some means of prolonging their life.

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>>50388384
>>50388679
Which basically means that Night Elves are the only possible source of butthurt.

>>50360490
I want to cum inside Whitemane!

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>>50378632

It's the little things that make it fun.

>>50388802
>tfw despite the new transmog system, the Laughing Skull masks are still locked behind the horrible rep grind to revered with Laughing Skull

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So when do Marius Felbane and Tehd Shoemaker get a spinoff comic?

>>50387318

>But lets not get that ball rolling again. The entire reasoning behind the Blood Elves joining forces with the very people that tried to annihilate them, desecrated their lands, corrupted their ancient runestones, and started the downward spiral of the High Elves was asinine.

And how would you have gotten the Horde more players?

>>50387615

Go away Blizzard.

>>50389282
Horde having a smaller playerbase wasn't a bug, it was a feature.

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>He plays an Orc Warrior

>>50389395
>not tauren death knight

>>50389282

Add more monster races. Like ogres who are actually still part of the Horde. Adding the blood elves completely destroyed the aesthetics and "feel" of the core horde.

Horde should get:

>forest/ice trolls
>taunka
>ogres
>maybe a tribe of rejigged gnolls
>breakaway naga faction
>maghar
>hozen
>arakkoa
>maybe lost ones
>yaungol
>tuskarr
>saurok

and the Alliance

>furbolgs
>pandaren(exclusively)
>earthen and frost dwarves
>vrykul
>mechagnomes
>windhammer and dark iron dwarves
>broken
>high/blood elves(just right in fucking WC3)
>centaur
>maybe a breakaway faction of ethereals?


Many of these are already in the factions or strongly connected with them. Having a shit ton of playable races/subraces might be a pretty good selling point for their dying game

>>50389465
>no mogu that worship Magni as the avatar of the gods in the Alliance

>>50389465
Stone maul ogres are in the horde since tft just not playable.
Pandas make no sense as ally only.

>>50389465

Waaay too many there, champ. I do agree on some of those but subraces like Taunka, Mag'Har and Broken could just be an appearance option for the already existing races.
I'd add Yaungol but they hate pretty much everyone as it is

>>50388421
Their main settlements arent in the desert. They are at the oceans, where there is more rainfall. The middle is desert due the mountain ridges holding back the clouds from going into the middle of america. Places like las vegas are big because of gambling being legal there.

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>>50389540

Is it true that the only reason Ogres haven't been playable is because they couldn't nail down a design for the females in time? Because that's such a damn shame if it is.

>You will never be a two-headed Ogre Mage/Shaman/Warlock or a one headed Warrior

WoD even gave them updated models. Such a tease

>>50389533
Alliance Mogu, Horde Pandaren would have been fantastic

If they weren't still trying to push the retarded Horde as conquerers idea, it would have fit perfectly, with the titanborn Mogu naturally allying with the fellow titanborn races while the nature-loving, free-spirited Pandaren fall in with those who share their ideals.

Of course, this would require Garrosh not exist and Kosak to not be pushing his WC2 ideology on everything, but it could have been great

>>50389533

Yeah, that'd be such a sweet theme. All the titan progeny getting together on one team.

>>50389540

Pandas make no sense as horde when they are invading their homeland and trying to annex it for resources. The whole huojin thing is a huge asspull. They should have just got hozen, fun, unique and fits the horde completely.

The only added race that wasn't a mistake was Goblins, and they were 2 expansions too late.

Blood Elves were put in horde solely to get more "people" to play horde. At least they destroyed the stigma attached to undead players, I guess.

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>Pandaria! Her hills of gold
>in dark and mournful times of old
did once a hopeless horror hold

>when from her sacred vale did spring
>with storm and flash, a monstrous thing
>his name, Lei Shen, the Thunder King

>his thunder boomed across the land
>and none who dared and fought could stand
>against the iron tyrant's hand

>a palace grand, a walled domain
>such mighty works borne of his reign
>built by slaves, their hearts in chains

>but seasons change, and tyrants die
>his fury spent in times gone by
>the thunder slept beneath Kun-Lai

>by Zandalari hands he has been taken
>to Zandalari voice he has awakened

>gather heroes, sound the drums
>the Thunder King comes
>the Thunder King comes

who /work of the gods/ here?

>>50390145
But undead males have the best casting animations!

>>50390293
>not female night elves
>not male tauren

Could Sylvanas carry a half human child to term?

>>50390382
she's fucking dead Kosak. How would she carry any child at all?

>Warlocks literally saves the Azeroth
>bears 2 Sargeras artifacts
>none gives a single shit about it in Broken Isles
Why?

>>50387700
Nope, it was Lor'Themar, Rommath (as prince councillor) just support this decision.

>>50390412
>tfw "even the slayer of Archimonde realizes the futility of their resistance"

>>50387318
>Even the belf quest givers say that all evidence shows that the Night Elf infiltrators were gathering information, not sabotaging.
Dwarf planed to sabotage them and he works together with Night Elfs.

>>50390412
But did they sacrifice everything to get them?

>>50390392
I mean hypothetically, if she were to copulate with a human male. What magic, if any, could make it happen if it couldn't already in her present state?

>>50390479
the sacrificed a lot of other people. Does that count?

>>50390472

Those quests felt strawman tier to me, like Garithos. Look at little blood elfsies, persecuted and tormented by everyone!

>>50390489

At this point, her story basically revolves around finding a way for the forsaken to reproduce so, no, the good old fashioned method just isn't happening. At all.

>>50390511
Only if it involves a demon enema.

>>50390525
mostly chaos bolt enemas desu

>>50390521
>her story basically revolves around finding a way escaping the Void
fix

>>50390521
Unless they pull out some kind of super-resurrection spell out of their asses. Not that there would be any point to do so unless Kosak wants to SI and have 2.5 kids with his waifu.

>>50390145

>add goblins
>beloved by everyone
>barely ever do shit after
>great starting zones
>that you will never revisit

>worgen
>beloved by many
>they literally do nothing after Gilneas
>absolutely great starting zone
>that you will never revisit except as a rogue on your legendary in cata

Fucking horse shit. Hate how blizzard manages to come up with great stuff and then they very intentionally sideline them forever in favor of orclords of orcnor and NOT-china.

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>>50389597
Traveler gave us Female Ogres

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>>50390293
>>50390355
>not male Trolls
You lack taste

>>50390489
The only males she's interested in are either undead or dead undead.

>>50389597
Yeah that's basically what happened. Damned shame - Ogres are pretty cool in WC.

>>50391098
More like that pic, m8?

>>50390086

And the Tushi Pandaren looking the other way while the Alliance starts indenturing locals into serfdom due to White Man's Burden makes sense?

The Jade Forest storyline makes it very clear that the PC's aren't aware of what abuses of the locals their faction's main attack forces are getting up to. They're either the handpicked elites with Nazgrim there to disrupt Alliance activity or the handpicked elites with the Skyhammer there to rescue Anduin. After the Proxy War between the Hozen and Jinyu plays out, both factions are cut off from communication with their homelands when the Sha are released and their heroes are charged with crossing the land and learning its mysteries so they can hopefully resolve their war peacefully. Neither faction has formal contact with their government again until the full-scale invasion at Krasarang, which is focused on fighting the other faction, not expansionism into the Pandaren heartland.

Plus, you know, Pandaria isn't any PC's Panda's home. They grew up on Wandering Isle and had never seen Pandaria before this.

Anyway, the point is there is plenty of reasons why Horde Pandaren would be insulated enough from Garrosh's plans for their land so as to justify sticking with the Horde through the events of Mists. You can bitch that they're contrived if you really want, but they're still reasonable.

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>>50392043
It was a commission, so doubtful that there are many arts that would show Trolls with fur/moss.

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>>50392239
Pretty great Night Elf Druid

http://wyrmrestaccordsecrets.tumblr.com/
http://moonguardsecrets.tumblr.com/

This is why the WoW RP community is cancer. I just wish more people actually did tabletop quality tabletop.

>>50392444
Fucking quality tabletop. I'm sick as fuck and migraines are making me see - and apparently produce - double.

>>50392232

I haven't actually played through the pandaria storyline, and this all seems pretty cool.

>>50392232

>all horde NPCs talk about how they need to conquer and enslave all of pandaria and "paint the continent red"
>all the alliance NPCs are about saving anduin and GTFO
>blizzard had to somehow maintain the RvB so apparently they are all the same now

I sure fucking enjoyed as a draenei paladin when all the fat panda shits talked shit about how I'm an evil warmonger daring to stand up aganist the horde.

Is there an in-game lore reason for why we've never visited the Broken Isles before Legion?

>>50392618
From what I have seen of opinions about MoP, it was pretty great expansion, and storyline was cool, if you ignore the faction war bits.

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>>50392621
Red is colour of the Horde, painting Pandaria Red would be beneficial for both Horde and Pandaren.

>>50392621
To be fair, the pandaren were kind of right about war being a bad thing no matter the reason. The Sha are pretty dumb.

But only right so far as their xenophobic, ostentatious points of view go. The entire narrative of Pandaria was dedicated to proving their stupid culture wrong, culminating in Shaohao's ghost renouncing their idiotic, brain dead isolationism and realizing he was wrong not to fight.They're a criticism of imperialism, which is appropriate, and we shit all over their retardation.

>>50362891
>Before shattering Thrall into the four elemental essences
...What?

>>50392723
Something something Ragnaros and Majordomo Staghelm.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_Nordrassil_Summit

>>50392723

The time when the dragon aspects blessing Nordrassil is less important tha thralls fee-fees.

>>50392696

Even the faction war bits were pretty great. Jade Forest being the AvH Vietnam was a really cool narrative and it was quite well written. The whole internal tensions of the Horde with Vol'jin and Lor'themar resisting Garrosh while Garrosh himself was keeping them out of the loop on his real plans and expanding his followers while isolating those not personally loyal to him was good, the big direct conflict down in Krasarang was well executed, and Vol'jin's actual rebellion against the Kor'kron in the Barrens was really fun. It was certainly a better portrayal of the war than the majority of Cata anyway.

>>50392621
Are you butthurt by chance

>>50393237
No. By design!

What is needed to get Blizzard to stop putting Dindus in its games?

>>50393237

Horde Dindu Nuffin Nigger found.

>>50387260
Have you played warcraft 3? The first appearence of draenei in warcraft lore is as allies of Illidan's blood elves against the orcs of Draenor. Blizzard late half-retconed it and those original draenei are the "broken" ugly cousins of the actual ones, but they're still the first draenei to appear in the lore.

>>50392721

The theme of the expansion wasn't so much that fighting is always bad. Before the Superpowers get involved the Pandaren were trying to mediate the conflict between the local Hozen and Jinyu in Jade Forest, but they weren't condemning it as foolish, just as something better resolved peacefully because it wasn't worth bloodshed. The Pandaren certainly didn't believe that vigilance and self-defense were things consigned to the trash heap of this history with the Mogu. After all, the Mantid tried to cross the wall on a regular schedule for thousands of years, and the Yungoal were a constant threat as well. The Shado-pan wasn't some secret order that had been in hiding since the Sha had been sealed, everybody knew about them and many Pandaren volunteered to join their ranks over the years to ensure the peaceful way of life the others enjoyed in the face of local threats.

The theme the Pandaren were conveying to the PC factions is to only fight for a cause worth fighting for. Which is a good message, but the issue with it is that their long isolation and force repression of their overly-zen psychology which the Sha made necessary had warped their perception of what was worth fighting for to the point where nothing seemed worth it. The lesson that they had to learn through the Sha wars and Garrosh was that sitting back until small problems become big problems because small problems aren't worth fighting over is to passive an approach. You have to have the conviction and wisdom to identify when a small problem IS worth dealing with, as well as when its best to step back and let it handle itself. The purely passive approach is too dangerous. However, Taran Zhu's character arc shows that being too aggressive toward the small problems is also unwise, since without the Alliance and Horde's help the Sha would have overrun the continent (They were released before the A and H got there after all, since it happened at the same time as the fall of the veil).

>>50393567

Or the most obvious solution: it was all poorly thought out and disjointed drivel trying to look deep.

>>50393632

Well, we can sit here and have a 300 page thread circle jerking about how WoW lore is shit here in the WoW Lore thread, or we can try to find good parts of it in place of assuming anything that seems like its good is actually garbage.

Let me think about which one I'd rather do here, in the WoW lore thread... hmmm...

>>50393632

You're both off. It was this: Pandering to the Chinks.

"HRRR Mr. Panda Chink your country way better and peaceful than ours and it Dindu Nuffin. Us dirty Wester... Players should be more like you"

Throw in some White Guilt too.

>>50393567
I do not disagree with you, but the conflict of writers gave Pandaria several different themes. I only stated one of them. Here's proof of mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM0wQbksjf8

"You triumphed over the darkness I had locked away." This implies suppression.

"You have shown Pandaria the power of a true hero." This implies that killing the Sha, not locking them away, is a truer path to the enlightened Shaohao.

Oh, and no, the pandaren are not pacifists. I never implied they were. You cannot believe in "balance" and be a pacifist. I literally said "Shaohao realized he was wrong not to kill everything dark and shadowy."

>>50393859
What the hell are you talking about you fucking brainwashed polack? Pandaren came out of the expansion looking like retards.Their fucking Vale blew the fuck up because the August Celestials thought everything would work out fine if they just let us in, and they intended to let Garrosh live after the war. Nothing out of Pandaria made the pandaren come off as anything but a counterpoint to Garrosh's bloodlusting, mouthbreathing autism-which is not actually a good thing.

If you pay closer attention to that idea, you'll see that it is 100% contradictory to the philosophy they claim to follow. You think the pandaren are some offense to white men, but they were written by white men to be wrong in every single possible way about the world they live in, and were given the Hiroshima treatment by the Horde's greasy green dick because of it. The story says "bluepilled peacemongers die in terrible fire."

But I guess if you choose natsoc over fascism you're always going to be a retard with no reading comprehension, kek.

>>50393759

talking about lore does not mean you have to be an apologist for disjointed bullshit that makes zero sense whatsoever

>>50394132
he never said you had to apologize for stupid shit

>>50393438
Draenei are very briefly mentioned in the WC1 handbook.

>>50394302
And the WC2 manual.

>>50361276

why does she have a shitty korean plastic face on this pic?

>>50394033
>Horde's greasy green dick because of it.
brown
The Ogre-headed buffoon of a Warchief was Mag'har and proud. And he hated what made Orcs green.

>>50394505
The majority of his forces were green. He loved any orc, as long as they were an orc.

Garrosh did nothing wrong.

>>50394554
Besides fucking Horde up in the long run by moving it towards Orcs-exclusive with occasional Goblins, which lead to rest of the Horde deciding to work with the Alliance to remove him.

>>50394763
Who gives a fucking shit what Blizzard wrote it to be? It represented something great.

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>mfw Quilboar will never be playable

>>50394554

It really would not have been hard to make Garrosh a more nuanced and sympathetic character instead of Orc Hitler. I've heard he IS like that for the most part in the books. I know Blizzard's teams have good writers on them, you can see well-written stuff and interest characters even in trash like Legacy Of The Void. But they're mandated to shoot for the lowest common denominator and Bioware-esque boilerplate plots on the most important characters and storylines and it bums me out. We can blame Activision for this, right? Vanilla and BC were the last things they did as just Blizzard right?

>>50394913
>It really would not have been hard to make Garrosh a more nuanced and sympathetic character instead of Orc Hitler.

So what exactly was wrong with Garrosh? He wanted the Horde to go back to its warlike and savage roots as opposed to Thrall's "noble savage" vision of it, right? What's wrong with that? Thats something I'll never understand, players want their horde to be less of what makes them orcs, they want their horde to be "noble savages", they dont want to be the villain.

Personally I love being the villain and I'd kill for the horde to go back to its genocidal ways.

>>50394791
It represents that Garrosh was unfit to lead the Horde as it was. He was only thinking of Horde as it were, and even that was warped from what Old Horde were back still on Draenor (no Trolls or Goblins on Draenor, but Ogres were there, and I do not recall Ogres in Siege of Orgrimmar).

Garrosh could make competent leader of Orcs, but he made awful leader of the entire Horde.

>>50395014
And they already tried to do that and as it turns out most people playing Horde don't want that

>>50395014
It simply won't work because of the fact that Azeroth is attacked 24/7 by every crap that exists in WoW universe.

and the Old Horde failed for a reason

>>50395014
>players want their horde to be less of what makes them orcs
Because that's not what makes them orcs. Scream dindu all you like, orcs were more interesting in Warcraft 3 and early WoW, when there was more to them than just being lolevil.

>>50395410

> when there was more to them than just being lolevil.

Instead, they were Dindus used by lolevil demons.

>>50395014

Whats wrong with Garrosh is that his in-game reasons for becoming Orc Hitler don't exist beyond doing things for ambition/blind hatred/lulz. His motivations in the expanded material are a lot more understandable based on what I've heard, mitigating suffering for his people and not feeling beholden to racial guilt like the Orcs who drank the blood are and actually having a sense of honor, if one warped by a shine-job done on the history of the old horde and his father. Almost none of that stuff is actually in the game, and I don't give credit when a game wants me to do homework.

>>50392618
Jade Forest and Dread Wastes are unironically some of the best designed zones in the entire game
from a story perspective, only Spires of Arak and a few of the old zones even come close

>>50395163
I think this is the biggest problem with the faction war and PVP in general. It's hard to write characters who want to fight the other faction for legitimate reasons when Azeroth is facing the apocalypse on a yearly basis. Any character who wants to fight the other guy while doom and hellfire rains down from the sky has no choice but to look like a psychopath, because hey, time and place for everything right? Except there isn't ever a time or place because they keep having to increase the stakes each expansion. So there isn't really room to explore border conflicts between the orcs and elves over logging rights, or humans pushing into the northern eastern kingdoms because anyone who does that looks like an idiot for ignoring the ever-present greater threat. See: Garrosh (Cata, MOP), Jaina (WOD), Genn, Jaina (Legion).

>>50396219
the faction conflict could have worked in Pandaria, but it involved completely fucking Garrosh's character development so everyone still hated it

the Sha were complete shitters that were only a threat because the pandas kept trying to take them down with all monk raids, and Lei Shen was only a threat to Pandaria at best, not the whole world like every other mid-expansion raid.

That's the perfect setting to explore the faction conflict, but making the Horde the objective bad guys to do so alienated half the playerbase and turned the others into complete fuckheads

>>50396303
Yeah, if they hadn't decided to hinge the faction war on one specific faction's leader becoming a 25 man raid boss, it could have worked, and it did in some zones. Kun-Lai was a good example of this, where the Alliance and Horde both took advantage of local instability to assist groups of Pandaren refugees and train them for battle as a bonus. If it all hadn't hinged on Garrosh deciding "hey, i'm gonna go crazy and fuck everything up now", it could have been great. But it didn't and it wasn't.

>>50390271
Panda races were great and Pandaria is so comfy.
I hope the next warcraft stuff is fun exploring again.

>>50396219

Genn has better reason that Jaina at least. The fact that Jaina turned evil because the Horde blew up her town after she had allowed it to become the biggest and most important military target on the continent is retarded. If the Horde had won a conventional siege of the city instead of just nuking it, did she think it would have turned out any better? Almost all the Alliance's war material for the Kalimdor Campaign was coming through her city, and it was all dumping out right into the Horde's heartland while they building a road strait to their Capital, and she has the gall to be this pissed that they took it out?

Genn Greymane has much better reasons. He has residual guilt about walling himself and Gilneas off from the Alliance during their darkest hour, he has the weight of his people's decimation at the hands of the Worgen plague, and he has a personal grudge against Sylvanas for the invasion of Gilneas and the death of his son, especially since he knows from the PC that her use of plague weapons was a direct contravention of her orders (and because he's lacking the knowledge the Horde players have that the entire invasion of Gilneas was only because Garrosh ordered it and Sylvie wasn't even interested in it, nor does he know that Sylvanas' decision to disobey those orders was at least partially based in the knowledge that Garrosh was trying to maximize Forsaken casualties during the invasion by giving that order). He has MUCH better reasons for acting recklessly and irrationally in propagating the faction conflict.

Especially because he is only risking himself and his personal forces on a small-scale mission to get Sylvanas, where as Jaina is actively advocating for faction-wide escalation when she's not just outright arguing for genocidal Total War against the entire Horde.

>>50394896
It's unfortunate, I love those big pigs. Though i favor the larger ones in southern barrens over the depiction as stunty little piglets in Mulgore, durotar etc.

>>50396570
Don't get me wrong, I really like Genn's story arc and motivations. It does all make sense. However, the problem I have with the overarching writing is that they feel they have to make Genn look irrational at all, even if it's irrational with good reason. Why does having a legitimate grudge have to look irrational?

>>50396570
Actually Jaina cooled down every time, but Then Horde does something worse that pushes her further down the edge.

Once she decide to cooldown afterTheramore, blood elves pulled the Divine Bell crap, Then after that comes Varian's death.

You have to face it, Horde have being acting like asshole through out the expansions, there's less reason to like them than to hate them for any in-game alliance member.

>>50396611

In the specific case of Legion, its a little murkier because as far as Genn knows, Sylvanas betrayed the Alliance and personally caused Varian's death as a result, and for that was rewarded by being made Warchief. Carrying out his personal grudge against her might be rationally justified even given the greater threat of the Legion because from his view she simply cannot be trusted, even in the face of this enemy, and its better for the world if she is removed from the Horde's leadership.

If you step back from that though, we have to remember he's doing this during a Legion attack, and not just any Legion attack, but the biggest Legion attack ever, a full scale invasion of the entire planet using all their technology and forms of demons we've never seen before, orchestrated by Sargearas the Dark Titan himself and field-commanded by Gul'dan, one of the most dangerous villains Azeroth has ever known. Its heavily implied that while we're doing out thing at Broken Islands the rest of the world is facing a simultaneous full-scale siege at all times and only barely holding the lines. We don't have a lot of time to find the magic bullet that it going to save our asses from this totally overwhelming assault. When you consider all that, indulging in a personal grudge no matter what your motivations are has to be at least somewhat irrational. The above justification about Sylvie just not being trustworthy even against the legion might be considered a rationalization.

>>50396788
The Chinese trusted the Commies to cover their back in WWII and look at what happened to them.

>>50396912
>*facist warlords (that were probably also Muslim extremists) trusted the commies to cover their back during WW2 and it resulted in the liberation of China
fixed that for you comrade

>>50396570

> The fact that Jaina turned evil because the Horde blew up her town after she had allowed it to become the biggest and most important military target on the continent is retarded

So fucking what? The humans and the orcs arrived to kalimdor together, none of them has a stronger claim than the other. Jaina was willing to KILL HER FATHER AND KING for the horde and only decided to go with the alliance because the horde was a rampant warmonger unworthy to her trust. Then they decided to prove her wrong by nuking her city and taking surviving civilians for target practice to SoO.

She had all the rights to wash Orgrimmar off Azeroth with that tsunami of hers, it took literal writer fiat(again) to save the horde so they can continue to exist and keep being bellingerent shitheads.

>>50397445

If Jaina hadn't stopped her waterworks Thrall would have just had to kill her himself and hold back the water with his vast elemental powers. Jaina backing off was the only thing that saved her dumb ass.

Also she killed her father and king because he was a bloodlusting warmongering deluded racist who refused to listen to reason. We've never seen any indication that the decision haunted her because by any objective standard it was the right thing to do. Retroactively calling back to it as a trauma that justifies her turn now more than a decade after the fact is dumb.

>>50397576
Thrall was losing his ass off before Kalecgos arrives...
Its in the book mate.

You mean he is a racist because he believed Orcs were savage warmongers, which turns out to be 100% true thanks to Garrosh?

>>50397576

>Orcs Dindu Nuffin

Hey there MMO Champion.

>>50397604

Well, whatever, I don't really read the books because most of them are offensively bad and games demanding you read supplements piss me off because the game story should stand on its own merits. I don't really care what Jaina did or didn't do in the books, in the game her genocidal attitude toward the Horde is completely stupid. What choice did the Horde have but to eliminate Theramore? She brought it on herself by allowing it to be the strategic headquarters AND logistical linchpin of the entire war effort.

He wasn't racist for belieing the orcs were savage warmongers, he had plenty of reason to think that. He was racist for not being willing to stop a campaign of genocide despite the efforts of the leader of the entire Horde civilization and his own daughter trying to get him to stop and settle things via negotiation. The fact that he was willing to throw away his nation's entire military and cause who knows what kind of problems for Kul Tiras as a result of his single-minded pursuit of the Orcs to an entirely different continent is icing on that particular cake. Nobody compliments Ahab on his pursuit of that ship-sinking monster of a whale for the good of all seafarers.

>>50396303

> Lei Shen was only a threat to Pandaria

Fun Fact: Kosak says Lei Shen >>>>Arthas as a warrior but Arthas would outscheme him.

>>50397718
>>50397604
>>50397576
>>50397445

Reminder that the Founding of Durotar campaign was the worst campaign. And Daelin Proudmoore is like Garithos (a strawman who we're not supposed to support).

>>50397690

Where did I say the Orcs didn't do anything? I said Daelin Proudmore was an idiot and his daughter's response to what the Orcs DID do is entirely stupid and she should know that. Either she's crazy or an idiot or actively refusing to consider her own culpability in what happened at Theramore because its easier to just Kill An Entire Race. Genocide is bad children.

>>50397718
Oh so you are just making shit up in your head,

How is it stupid when Horde commits genocide to Alliance on a regular base?

You mean the same "Horde Leaders" that he faced 13 years ago that tried to genocide every alliance race?

Why do you always overlook the "horde commit genocide everywhere" part in every thread?

>>50397774
Except Daelin turned out to be right.

Orcs ARE genocidal maniacs as we are shown in Cata and WoD.

>>50397794

>Genocide

I must have missed the Expansion where Jaina said she must kill every Orc everywhere.

>>50397815

But Garrosh died for the Horde's sins. And bad writing doesn't make Daelin right.

>>50397867
Well WoD showed us that uncorrupted, no-demon cool-aid Orcs still turned out to be genocidal maniacs.

Like it or not its the canon lore.
Its the main story for an entire expansion.
Saying its just bad writing doesn't make it not true.

>>50397797

You're so full of shit. You KNOW the only time that the Horde was looking to commit genocide was when they were possessed by demonic forces. Even after Doomhammer took over most of them were still under a demonic bloodlust, it was only during the internment period that it began to fade, and the withdrawals nearly killed their species.

And no, the Horde Leaders that Daelin would have negotiated with were not the ones he faced 13 years earlier. In fact, not a single one was a leader he'd ever faced in the previous wars because all of those guys were dead. He was refusing to deal with an entirely new leadership of a race now free of demonic corruption for the first time in a decade because he wanted to genocide them back, except he didn't have demons to justify his behavior, just good old racism.

Deal with it.

>>50397909
>Well WoD showed us that uncorrupted, no-demon cool-aid Orcs still turned out to be genocidal maniacs.

That has always been the case, even before WoW, the idea of Orcs as innocent noble savages is from WC3 and specifically Thrall and its an idea that stuck with the players despite Orcs being warmongering savages even before the legion infected the Horde.

Orcs ARE warmongering savages.

>>50397909

Not all of them skeeter. Half of their race and all of the non-orcs joined a rebellion to kill the Hitler that was leading their race back down that path SPECIFICALLY because they didn't want to repeat past mistakes.

You talk like Orcs are the only race in Warcraft that could possibly be lead astray by a demagogue. It happens all the fucking time. it happened to humans in the god damn second war. Alterac anyone?

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>>50397923
>You KNOW the only time that the Horde was looking to commit genocide was when they were possessed by demonic forces.

Did WoW change it to that? Because otherwise the Horde destroyed the Draenei and destroyed Draenor before Gul'dan made contact with Kil'Jaeden. The Horde has always been bent on warfare and conquest.

>>50397923
Nope, Horde commited genocide when they attack Theramore, and Silverwind Refuge, and South Shore, and Hillsbrad Fields, and Fenris isle.
And they were happily committing genocide on others in WoD.
NONE of it had anything to do with demonic influences.
Throwing a fit won't change what the canon lore is.

They weren't the same people, but they were "Horde leaders" non the less.
And in the end he was right about the Orcs, as we are shown in Cata and WoD.

Lying will get you no where, Little Horde wanker.

>>50398015
Yes, it's been retconned that the Orcs were always a nuisance to the Draenei, but not a real threat because the Draenei had such superior crystal technology. Not to mention, the Orcs were just disparate clans with no formal organization.
It took demonic enhancement and the organizing the clans into a single fighting force to finally break through the defenses of the Draenei and presumably the Ogre Empire and Arakkoa, too.

>>50398015

Warcraft 2 and 3 retconned that before WoW even came along. The Shadow Council didn't even exist until Legion contact, and the war with the Draenei was engineered by the Shadow Council by manipulating the Shamans, the elementals, and the natural prejudices of the Orcs.

I don't remember if they managed to start the war before or after the demon blood was drank, but if it was after it was certainly during the war's prosecution, and there's no indication that it was a war of genocide until after they got hopped up on green.

Also that line about "its always been this way," is a crock, the Ogres were the dominate race on Draenor for most of its history. If that was a retcon it also happened in Warcraft 2 or 3, because one of those made it clear that after they drank the demon blood the Orcs killed most of the Ogre's leaders and made them bend the knee.

>>50398089

You don't fucking know what "genocide," is, do you? Wiping out a city or settlement or army to the last man isn't genocide genius. Its not good, but its not genocide. When Jaina tells Varian to "dismantle the Horde," thats genocide because she's telling him to wipe out their entire civilization. The implication is obvious behind the euphemism.

>>50397972
You mean after they helped Garrosh commit unspeakable atrocities through out Azeroth?
Even the players had a hand in the Genocides.

It's more like an "OMG he is coming for me better save my own ass" self-saving act.
When did Vol'jin start the rebellion? oh that's right, after Garrosh tried to assassinate him.

Humans' didn't drove a Race wide Genocide train like Orcs did in WoD.
Sure human had bad guys too, but they didn't make an Iron Alliance did they?

>>50398129
Um no. She's not telling Varian to execute them all. Even if she wants to do that herself. She's telling him to shatter their unity and leave them as separate little nation states who would not be able to threaten the Alliance in any way on their own. That's not genocide unless she wants to round them up, put them in camps and gas them for the sake of cleansing Azeroth of their filth.

>>50398129

>dismantle the Horde

I'll go around saying Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany getting dismantled was genocide.

>>50398129
Killing the member of a race with the intention of wiping out that race is a genocide.

Just because Nazi failed to wipe out the jews doesn't mean they didn't commit genocide to Jews.
Just because Horde failed to wipe out the Alliance doesn't mean they didn't commit genocide to the Alliance member race.

dismantle verb
[WITH OBJECT]
Take (a machine or structure) to pieces:

No,"dismantle horde" is not genocide.
Horde is a power structure, not a race.
Start learning English before you go around arguing with people.

>>50398089
>attacking military targets during a war is genocide
go away Hans

>>50398154

Oh, so she's "only," telling him to destroy all their cities and leave them in squalor and poverty with no infrastructure to sustain their current population? When people start dieing by the thousands because they don't have anywhere to live or grow food because the Alliance makes sure any place three orcs gather is put to the sword, will that qualify as a genocide yet?

>>50398148

What are you talking about? The PCs are rarely engaged in anything but what anyone would consider normal military operations under Garrosh. The biggest atrocity the players had a part in was in Stonetalon, and Garrosh himself but the General who ordered that to death. The majority of Garrosh's most heinous crimes were done in secret, or the players were actively kept in the dark about their role in them until after the fact. When those who are not loyal to Garrosh start to see what they've been made to do, they turn on him. Thats what the whole story was about, coming to see Garrosh for what he was beyond just "a dick warmonger." Being a dick warmonger is not enough of a reason to betray your leader in real life either.

>>50397815

This is a blizzard classic now. Completely one-dimensoonal, throwaway racist strawmen like Daelin and Garithos actually being proven completely right in everything by the power of shitty writing.

>>50398265
If the orcs can't care for themselves, that's their own fault, retard. That's not genocide.

>>50398211
> Refuge
> Fields
> Fenris Isle, another Refugee site.

Yes, I am sure they are military target,
Whatever ease your mind

Also , a reminder that Alliance always tried to avoid civilian casulties even when attacking military targets.

>>50398295
>drive the survivors of of Camp Taurjo into a quilboar camp, then burn and occupy the town
>we didn't kill anyone lol, how could we possibly have predicted what happened?

>>50398089

Dont forget: the alliance attacking a camp made of fucking tents and lettign the civilians escape is a horrific warcrime but the forsaken turning everyone in southshore into goo is just being misunderstood.

>>50398265
PC's aided, and were part of, the attack on Theramore.
PC's aided, and were part of, the theft of Divine Bell.

Yes Horde PC's are actually VERY guilty in Cata/Pandaria, unless the player read spoilers and actively avoid doing those quests, they are part of Garrosh's Atrocity.

>>50398293

If they can't care for themselves because a foreign power destroyed their government and homes and armies and everything else you need to sustain a population, its not a genocide? Read a fucking history book.

>>50398337
See >>50398171
And you go read a dictionary.

>>50398335

the PC's didn't aid in the use of the Divine Bell after it was taken. Capturing a relic is a totally normal military mission. And the PC's role in Theramore was to rescue a captured intelligence operative. We didn't even know about the mana bomb until right before it was dropped.

>>50398287
Yeah its sad.

While I don't like how it turns out, its now the canon and is pretty impossible to refute at this point (unless they want to make the entire WoD non-canon).

>>50398320
The Alliance have no idea what barren is like, as stated by the Taurens themselves.
They also didn't occupy it, but obviously you can't be bothered to read quest log.

>still unwilling to accept Hordes actively genocide people.