D&D is not Generic Western Fantasy

>>50339951
No argument here.

>>50339951
agreed

k.

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>>50339951
So why in the fuck do people seem to be so shocked by this then, and why are people trying to use D&D for gritty Sword and Sorcery Campaigns, when we can all agree that it's not that at all?

>>50339951
Yes?

>>50340215
There's a minor but vocal group in /tg/ that thinks D&D is LotR and that's why casters should be stronger than puny martials. They're also a big part of "martial with options? fuck off weeb" group.

>>50339951
Depends slightly more on edition, but generally accurate.

>>50339951
That's mostly in more recent editions (3e onwards), but yes, I agree.
Every time I want to run a fantasy RPG I look at the available systems and get quite frustrated when I realise I'll have to go through it with a fine-toothed comb and remove all the stupid warforged, arcane-archer, mystic God of fucking options and so forth.

>>50339998
>>50340011
>>50340023
>>50340215
>>50340224
>>50340243
>>50340299
>>50340342
>all D&D is high level D&D

I'm ashamed there's this many morons on /tg/.

>>50339951
>D&D is a gonzo superhero RPG with fantasy trappings.

That's how I would characterize 'Generic Western Fantasy' rather than Tolkien being the example.

>>50340382
Even D&D at low levels isn't a great match for a lot of those worlds in most editions.

>>50340382
>Low level martials shouldn't have any option beyond swing a stick while casters should but casters are fine
Either you quoted me wrong or you agree with my green text above.

>>50340422
D&D isn't supposed to be a good match for those worlds. It's not supposed to be a generic system. Early editions were based on Jack Vance's works combined with pulpy sword and sorcery aspects, and later editions were based on running things established by previous editions.

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>>50340382
Also:

D&D = Eberron

>mfw

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>>50340382
>>50340342
>D&D can do regular fantasy just fine if you cut out 75% of the levels and options.
Then why not play a game that is actually designed around those lower level things?
They exist, you know.

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What D&D is supposed to represent and be suited for has changed with the times just like most other fantasy works.

>>50340446
Right. So why are people morons for agreeing that D&D is fairly high fantasy overall and not suited for those more gritty lower fantasy worlds?

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>>50340464
Eberron is a setting more honest about how the game actually works, rather than pretending it's perfectly good for oldschool sword and sorcery fiction.

>>50340479
Here, have some Golarion

>>50340479
Because 25% of a good game is better than 100% of a bad one. D&D has always shined from having a strong core mechanic for each edition when they were released, with 5e being a next great step in a long evolutionary line.

And, D&D is huge. even 10% is bigger than most games, and about 2% is all you need to run a great campaign.

>>50340509
>not suited

It's a generic fantasy system. It's suited for gritty and low as well as high fantasy pulp.

Stop trying to put limitations on a roleplaying game that obviously doesn't have them.

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DND is called Heroic Fantasy in the book itself. Doesn't mean things can be themed to be more humble, especially at the start of the campaign.

>>50340595
>generic fantasy

A generic fantasy system would be using Mana, not spell slots. D&D is basically the only thing to actually use vanician magic.

Stop trying to force a heroic fantasy system to try and fit everything.

If out of Fighter, Mage, Theif, and Cleric you're banning Mage and Cleric because they don't fit the setting, then you should consider something else.

Why use D&D for the of at thrones when a game of thrones RPG actually exists and has mechanics dedicated to fitting game of thrones?

>>50340595
>It's a generic fantasy system.
[Citation Needed]
>It's suited for gritty and low as well as high fantasy pulp.
[Mechanical Evidence Needed]

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>>50340464
Here, have some Planescape.

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>>50340464
And some Spelljammer

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Hi, I'm going to play pathfinder for first time and I have some questions (added in this other thread >>50339589 → ) Someone adviced me to ask here for a build for a starter dwarf warrior.
I still don't know my primary stats and I'm not familiar with the game. My character is going to be, probably, a female, if anyone have some ideas for their fluff I will heard it gladly.
Thanks.

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>>50340464
Forgotten Realms

>>50340464
So, does D&D != Eberron / Golarion / Forgotten Realms / Planescape / Spelljammer?
If that's your position, I call BS.

>>50340782
Wrong thread, dude. I linked here because this is a discussion of D&D being a superhero RPG, not generic fantasy.

/pfg/ is >>50338130 thataway

>>50340782
I assume axe and board with heavy armor warrior? You need Str>Con>Rest
Int is good for skill ranks (and depending on the class you'll need some), Wis is good for saves and perception and Cha is good for diplomacy, intimidation, etc. As long as your Dex is 10+ you have no problem.

As for the classes, well, there's fighter, but I won't recommend it because is weak as fuck, talk to your Gm about the game and what he recommends you.

>>50340886
Oook let's go the 3rd one!

>>50340922
As for the classes, well, there's fighter, but I won't recommend it because is weak as fuck

Ok so wich is the powered combat class?

>>50340976
Barbarian is better.
Path of War has good and balanced martial classes, but it's third party stuff and most GMs don't like it.

If you don't mind magic you also have Inquisitor, Paladin, Ranger, Warpriest.

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>>50340509
Because they're big stupid dummyheads and you're soooooooo smart for noticing. You're probably the most astute mind of our generation, anon. In a perfect world you'd be crowned Supreme Overlord of Earth and afterwards all 6.5 billion people would line up to give you a blowjob in admiration, and literally the only reason they aren't is because their feeble minds can't comprehend your superior intellect. Furthermore, this was a worthwhile topic for a thread, and one that affects many people. It is not, in fact, what you get for using Roll20/FLGS classifieds (aka people no one wanted to play with in the first place) and it is CERTAINLY NOT an unironic shitpost by pretentious dipshit desperate to whine about popular things so he can feel good about himself.

There, I gave you the answer you've been fishing for this whole time. Happy now?

>>50340595
False.

>>50341170
What? I was one of the people that other dickhead called a moron in the first place.

I think you need to take a break, anon.

>>50341170

7 billion.

>>50341170
OP here.

Haven't played D&D with Randos in nearly a decade. this thread is entirely in exasperation at the idiocy I've seen on /tg/ in the past 3 days, by people who clearly have no idea what game they're playing.

>>50339951
Noted.

Please recommend me a system that would fit a harder-edged western fantasy setting, that isn't schlocky garbage like Dungeon World, or a generic system like Savage Worlds/Gurps.

>>50341231
Well, of course! It's not like a being of pure intellect such as you could sully your hands by arguing it out with them at the time! Much better to make a thread about it days later so there's little chance of them arguing back.

>>50341249
Why not GURPS? It is exactly what you are looking for with gritty combat and lots of fitting options.

>>50341249
Warhammer fantasy Role Play 2ed

>>50341313
I argued at the time, as well. But after it occurring four times, in four separate threads, I figured I may as well make a thread specifically about it.

>>50341323
2nded

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>>50339951
>D&D is a gonzo superhero RPG with fantasy trappings.
Sounds awesome. This is why I run 4e, because while it does "LotR, SoIF, or the Witcher" the worst of any edition, it does "gonzo superhero RPG with fantasy trappings" the best of any edition.

>>50341335
Congratulations, you're even worse than I thought. You didn't even have anything to get out of your system. You made this whiny, passive-aggressive shitpost PURELY so you could be told how right you are.

>>50341249
>GURPS Dungeon Fantasy fits the bill.

But other options:

>CJ Carella's Witchcraft + Dungeons & Zombies
>Ghosts of Albion + Dungeons & Zombies
>Fantasy HERO
>Pendragon
>Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e
>HARP
>MERP
>Rolemaster
>Mongoose's Conan RPG

My first pick would be GURPS DF, or GURPS Monster Hunters with fantasy equipment.

Then d20 Conan or Ghosts of Albion + Dungeons & Zombies.

>>50341367
I was actually expecting if I made a thread about it, someone who thinks otherwise might actually have a coherent argument. But they didn't. Instead it's just a bunch of whining about their poorly calibrated expectations not matching up to the game they were playing.

The most insightful post was the one mentioning how the books don't IN YOUR FACE, ONE-SENTENCE tell you flat-out that the game grows to superhero levels in the upper levels, and is not a generic low magic fantasy RPG.

>>50341249
LOTFP, if you can handle nsfw and osr

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>>50339951
>>50340215
See attached.

>>50340684
>A generic fantasy system would be using Mana
Why? Just because it's the laziest and most unimaginative thing to go with?

>>50341249
You could look at ZeFRS or Barbarians of Lemuria, maybe?

>long story short

A group of people, upset about D&D having such a majority of the market, including the overwhelming majority of the fantasy market, try to spin a myth about D&D being unable to do what it's been doing for the last forty plus years.

>>50341525
D&D hasn't resembled OD&D for 30 years.

>>50341525
>Reads PDF
Yeah, that's already weird for generic fantasy, even then.

>>50341577
D&D has been shit at low magic since 3e at the latest, maybe even 2e.

I am not upset about this in the slightest. I simply find it annoying when people demand it be good at low magic fantasy and get angry when the party is level 18, and its not.

Im perfectly okay with D&D as a superheroes game.

>>50341525
Yeah that's the biggest argument against D&D being generic fantasy.

>>50341625
>I've been shit with D&D

How. Even little kids know how to use the system well for low magic.

Have you considered that you're stupid?

>>50341525
Yes, having a pool of magical energy that drains as you cast spells is pretty generic at this point.

>>50341762
This, low magic in D&D is pretty easy, just play from 1st to 4th level

What system am I supposed to use for extremely low magic LotR style games then?

>>50341762
It's just objectively worse at it than other systems

>>50341762
>You'd have to be retarded to think D&D is ill-suited to low magic!
Okay then, genius, show me how to have upper level D&D be low magic, without gutting most of the classes.

>>50341835
We've already discussed e4 and e6 and e8.

The argument is against people thinking ALL of D&D is suitable for low magic.

Obviously, if you cut out the top 75% of the game material and stick to e4, you can *DO* low magic (though I'd point out it's still shit at it compared to the alternatives designed for low magic).

>>50341859
The One Ring
GURPS is pretty swell as well

>>50341835
>Just remove 80% of the game, bro

>>50341865
>how do you do the wrong thing?

What is wrong with you? Do you not understand how the game works? Upper-level D&D has classes tied to high magic. You're going to have to remove them if you want to play low magic, which isn't really an issue because you're still left with a good number of classes.

Or, you can just play low level D&D.

Why are you deliberately trying to be stupid?

>>50341883
>I'm dumb

20% of D&D is still a huge game.

>>50341862
>objectively

And, we're done. Since you're here just to be stupid, all we can do is laugh at you now.

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>>50341859
Middle Earth

>>50341399
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, HARP, and MERP are all pretty good at it, there's a Not-Middle-Earth BRP Spinoff whose name I forget, there's a Middle Earth for Unisystem Hack that's pretty good, The One Ring, there's the 2002 Lord of the Rings RPG

The one attached is alright.

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>>50341953
Character Sheet

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>>50341953
NPC Sheet

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>>50341953
Character creation Example

And because it's unisystem-Based, if you wanted to add in stuff from a different unisystem game it's basically plug & play.

>>50341865
>The argument is against people thinking ALL of D&D is suitable for low magic.

So, strawmen?
Who ever argued that the high-level, high magic spells in D&D are suitable for a low magic campaign? Hell, the fucking DM's guide even explains how to run low magic campaigns for people who are apparently as dumb as you seem to be.

And, I'd point out that e4 isn't shit compared to alternatives. You might have your preferences, but really, you sound like you're just the kind of guy who doesn't know how to run a game that thirteen year olds are expected to be able to understand.

>>50341921
Not an argument

>>50341909
Sure, though it will still mechanically not offer nearly as much as WHFRP or GURPS in that department, nor will be as close to a gritty low fantasy deal as you can get with other systems either. In the end D&D is just not made for that type of game, and it shows.

>>50342010
I'm not even sure e4 with martial classes only would be that great at it. Say you're running game of thrones, for example. How many times will it take to stab a sleeping level 4 Barbarian with a dagger to assassinate him? He's gonna have at least 30 health easily.

>>50341921
>>50341903
>>50341921

You're arguing with several people who disagree with your absurd notions, not just one.

>muh e4.
>how is e4 worse than a game dedicated to that power level?
In D&D, a level is a large improvement. In a low-magic RPG, levels are less of a big deal, or there are no levels and you can improve stuff far more gradually.
That's the big one I can think of.

>play high levels with all the casters removed.
Okay, again with the gutting of most of the game. you CAN do that, but it still seems very unlikely to yield better results than choosing a game designed around what you're trying to play.

3.5 & Pathfinder also have shitty combat maneuver mechanics making them nigh impossible to do unless you dump everything you are into a single combat maneuver, and so you get boring stand still and full attack combat, much of the time. RPGs designed around martial characters have more options to make that more interesting.

You still need all those magic items unless the GM is also going to throw out the published monsters and adventures.

In pathfinder you can give them innate bonuses, but they really don't keep up as well as the items do, and the GM is still going to do a bunch of work to try to make the challenges reasonable without proper magic items.

>>50342029
This.

>>50342015
It's too bad WHFRP and GURPS are both pretty bad. GURPS in general is a terrible system that is more of a meme recommendation than honest advice.

If that's what you're hoping to compared D&D to, it's no wonder you're all sorts of bitter when people decide not to play your just-not-as-good games and play D&D instead.

>>50341909
No, anon, don't say that, you're not the brightest but you aren't dumb.

>>50342082
Not a fan of WHFRP, but GURPS Monster Hunter and GURPS DF are both pretty good, and lack the big problem that tends to come with GURPS (how much work it is for the GM to configure it for a particular campaign they want to run).
Either GURPS option would be preferable to D&D (especially pathfinder) for a low magic fantasy campaign.

>>50342069
>I don't know how to play
>let me explain how I don't know how to play
>do you understand that I don't know how to play?

Crystal clear. I'm surprised you're still pretending to have ever run a game in the system.

>>50342082
Whether they are "Good" systems has nothing to do with it. They are however much better at gritty low fantasy, emphasizing caution over cool, which they do a million times better than D&D with features ranging from GURPS's bleeding system to WHFRP's magic repercussions. I personally don't dislike D&D, I play B/X on a weekly basis and finished up a 3.5 campaign earlier this year.

>>50342029
Coup de grace

>>50342120
Thankfully with DF and Monster Hunter everything is chosen out of the box, which eliminates a lot of the GM prep. I would like to see more published adventures myself. Thankfully there is a new one coming with the new DF books next year which should be perfect for beginners.

>>50342069
Combat maneuvers only become useless from 10th and beyond levels, till them a martial focused can use them pretty efficiently.

>>50342125
While I hate to be the gay 'not an argument' guy. You really aren't defending your position well here.

For the sake of an outside observer, how about you explain what he's doing wrong or how you would do it, rather than just greentexting?

>>50342125

so instead of properly arguing your points against, ad hominem. nice.

You can play Game of Thrones using M&M, that doesn't mean M&M is a good system for low magic settings.

>>50342029
>GoT

Level 4 Barbarian is like the Mountain.
How many times was he stabbed before dying? With poison even?

For most people, a coup de grace dagger attack will kill them. For anyone with a character level, ie, being important to the story, it makes sense for them to not be excessively fragile.

>>50342132
Ah yes, a devastating critical hit from a 1d4 damage weapon. That'll certainly do the 30+ damage you need to kill him.

Maybe try and poison it to? I'm sure whatever non-magical poison you brewers up will certainly get past his fortitude.

>>50342125
I was going to rebut, but
>>50342153
>>50342155
sum it up nicely. You make outrageous claims, and because you can't back them up with well reasoned arguments you sling insults.

>>50341953
The BRP Spinoff is Age of Shadow
http://ageofshadow.freehostia.com/index.html

This is the page for HARP
http://ironcrown.com/harp/

MERP and Rolemaster aren't bad either, but are rather clunky for chargen and advancement. They would not be my first choice, but I have played them and they were still fun.

>>50342153
e4 doesn't use levels past level 4, but instead changes to a more gradual rewards system. Levels 1-4 are basically just the tutorial allowing players to learn their main abilities in steps.

Everything else is just him not understanding how to run combat, or that magic items at low levels do not significantly contribute to characters enough to make a DM have to worry about unbalancing published monsters or adventures.

It's more of him trying to figure out how to make the game not work, without really looking at how easy it is to make it work.

>>50342145
Assuming they took the feats for the maneuver they want to do. Limited number of feat slots, and a lot of investment in a given maneuver.

>>50342183
Sneak attack goes on coup de grace
At 4th level is 1d4+2d6+Str, if you fail a fort save against 10+that you die.

Lets assume 12 Str, 10+1d4+2d6+1= 20.5, I'm pretty sure the Barb is not going to save that often.

>>50342183
>The gold costs of poison in this game
good luck with that. Nearly cheaper to hire an army.
Top kek.

>>50342183
>I don't have the slightlest idea how coup works in 3.PF: The post

>>50342225
Do you even know what e4-e6-e10 is or how it works?

>>50342260
>Do you understand you get more feats after hitting level cap in e4/e6/e8
Yes. yes I do.

Anon did not specify that was in relation to eN, only mentioning level 10.

For all I knew he was referring to simply running a 3.x game with 1-10 level range; so I pointed out the feat requirements of combat maneuvers at the low levels is quite high, in addition to them becoming useless at the higher levels.

>>50339951
No, it's just a gonzo fantasy RPG.

And most popular fantasy is gonzo fantasy to begin with.

>>50342305
You're essentially saying "It doesn't work if you do X" when people are saying "It works if you do Y."

Why would people do X when it's obvious to do Y.

>>50342260
There're still requirements in eX, and most maneuver feats require more than 4 BaB.

>>50341525
>Just because it's the laziest and most unimaginative thing to go with?
That's why we call it generic.

>>50342334
Nope. I'm simply saying

"It works ___" without specifying "if you do B" means not everyone is going to assume B is part of your claim.

If that's the claim you're making, be explicit.

"A) low level D&D" is not the same as "B) e4 D&D"

Lots of people play A and aren't talking about B. people in this thread have mentioned A without any mention of B.

I'm not going to assume you mean B if you don't specify.

>>50341835
>just play from 1st to 4th level
>magic missile
>disguise self
>enlarge person
Totally low magic here.

>>50342402
Ban those spells if you don't like them. I personally don't see how they break the low-magic wall though, wherever that wall may be, but it's your campaign and you can do whatever you want.

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>>50340243
>D&D is LotR and that's why casters should be stronger than puny martials.
>"martial with options? fuck off weeb"

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with, their. Are you imply weebs are big proponents of martial/caster parity or that that's a big thing in anime?

>>50342396
So, if people offer a solution or a counterargument, you're going to ignore it and argue about something else, assuming the other options stop existing the moment you stop thinking about them.

>>50342437
Not him, but I personally find what pushes D&D magic at any level into high fantasy is the fact that it's strong, safe, and fast.

You basically have to limit them to rituals, cantrips, or introduce some sort of backfire mechanic to prevent casters from solving tons of problems with ease.

>>50342437

>magic missile
>missiles literally made out of magic that you can cast from your hands
>make yourself physically larger simply using magic

How is this not high magic, exactly? Besides that, for low magic to work AS LOW MAGIC it should not be something you can cast from your hands or a magic staff immediately, as long as you've got the reagents.

Take Thieves World; there, it's low magic, magic's really fucking powerful but takes time and even spells like fireballs take like a minute to get off, whereas in dnd and shit the cast time is usually pretty small, even at low levels.

I hardly think it's possible to do low magic in DND when what you have at the tips of your fingers, even with banning, is a whole lotta really cool, really fast, sometimes unsafe but pretty safe otherwise, magic abilities.

If you can make it work, by all means, but I find it highly doubtful. If you're so adamant on low magic, just..use another system.

>>50342463
If you mention a counterargument to some guy in post A1, and then in another post make another random statement, with no indication youre the same person, or that its a continuation of post A1, and could just as easily be a completely different person making an unrelated comment B1, why would you assume everyone else is going make the connection that your next post is A2 instead of B1?
*Letter is topic, Number is post number in that topic.

You did not specify eX, I did not assume you were that same poster from earlier in the thread, and therefore did not assume you were talking about eX, and thought you were simply making a claim about combat maneuvers in general.

>>50342533
Ghosts of Albion has a petty neat magic system. Ritual Path Magic in GURPS like GURPS Monster Hunter is also really cool.

>>50342469
D&D actually has a number of built-in backfire mechanics, including wild magic (your magic is less controllable), blood magic (spells require HP), and insanity damage.

But, personally, I've always categorized "high" and "low" fantasy less on how reliable magic is, but more on how much it affects the daily lives of people. While magic being reliable for players is largely a game mechanic, the safety, speed, and frequency of use may be ultimately determined by the fluff and lore. The PCs are typically exceptional people, and what's true for them is not always true for the wider world.

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>>50339951
>A non-argument gets over 100 replies anyway

>>50342587
Those backfire mechanics tend to be optional rules for specific classes, rather than the default though.

While high and low magic isn't entirely centered on that, I tend to find it is a good indicator. While the PCs are typically exceptional people, I usually like to operate on the assumption that there's at least a few other people in the wider world that are as about good as they are, or at least capable of some similar things.

That said, I do feel as though magic needs to be lengthy rituals, weak cantrips, or hazardous in order to fit well in a low magic setting.

>>50342721
If you read the thread, apparently it IS an argument.

At least some people think 3.x/Pathfinder is a great system for low magic fantasy.

(And many others are arguing because they strongly disagree).

It's fun to watch. Just go make some popcorn and read the arguments.

>>50342533
>>missiles literally made out of magic that you can cast from your hands

They can be fluffed as indistinct projections of force, and at 1d4+1 damage, that's really not as dramatic as you might think. It's practically on par with a punch from a strong person.

It's only too easy to sneak that into a low magic setting.
In fact, I'm sort of curious as to what you would define as low magic, since a wizard being able to punch you in the gut from afar is hardly the most impressive things you can encounter.

And, in D&D, the casting of the spell is really just the final activation. For wizards, they have to spend several minutes beforehand preparing it, and for the sake of game convenience it's all collected together as an hour.

>>50342722
The "default" is not what we're discussing. In fact, I think it's a little silly to even act like the game has a "default", when the game was designed to be open to variants and customization, to a degree that the "default" is rare and unlikely, and merely serves as a framework.
The framework is low magic adventurers developing into high magic adventurers (1-20), but most games will instead only feature a portion of that path. If you want to stray away from the framework assumption, there's optional rules to help and guide you.

If the argument is "D&D can't do low fantasy because I refuse to look at the options it has for low fantasy and will instead pretend that the only way people are allowed to play D&D is through some strange constricted method I devised that forces people to play in a specific way", then we're not really talking about D&D, but D&D in the hands of someone who applies unfair limits to the system purely for the sake of argument.

>>50342933
On the contrary, the default is exactly what we're discussing. D&D may pitch itself as a generic catch-all fantasy system, but it leans high fantasy very heavily with its rules and settings. Magic items, spellcasters, and magic are all assumed to be decently common under the rules.

The fact remains that D&D is not a generic fantasy system. D&D does not do every type of fantasy equally well, and it's a mistake to try and force it to do things it wasn't designed to. Yes, you can ban half the classes, restrict things to level 4, load up on a boatload of optional rules and variants, and get something that may resemble a low fantasy setting, but that's far cry from being a generic system.

To use a point of comparison, look at GURPS, which actually aims to be generic. The default rules there are mainly just a resolution mechanic, while everything else is added on later. It doesn't start with the rules to make superheroes as the core assumption and then give you options to dial the superheroes back until they're effectively normal people. That's not a Generic system, that's gutting the system until you find the core resolution mechanic and then building a new one around it.

The only difference is, in the case of 3.5, somebody already did the work of telling you how to gut all the high magic rules and add in some low magic ones. Still doesn't work great due to how martial combat works and the skills system being what it is, but yeah, strictly speaking you CAN use D&D 3.5 for a low magic game.

Of course, you'd be far better served trying to do it with earlier editions that have a lower power level so you don't have to change as much, or fifth edition which also has a somewhat lower power level as well as less feat intensive options for melee combatants.

But if you really, really want, you can sand all the corners off of that square peg and shove it right into that round hole.

>>50343099
Oh, fuck off, you dumb cunt.

D&D is a huge system. You can ban half the classes, restrict things to level 4, and still have a bigger and better game than some of the shit out there that is dedicated to the low magic genre.

The fact is that it's a generic fantasy system. It's what it's marketed as, what it excels as, and why its dominated and continues to dominate the fantasy roleplaying genre. Trying to deny that is simply going through all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and say that D&D isn't allowed to do what other games are allowed to do, and that is adapt itself to the needs of the GM.

Your point of comparison is a game that needs an enormous amount of work to configure into a fantasy game, and additional effort to fine tune it to what kind of fantasy you're looking for. GURPS is actually a particularly poor example, because it struggles with fantasy and has several terrible magic systems that need to be avoided in order to latch onto the good one.

You need to stop acting like D&D is a system that demands players to include what you would call the "default" options, when the books themselves advise using only what suits the campaign you want to run. Rather than going from "build it up" approach of GURPS, D&D prefers the "Strip it down" approach, and both are perfectly viable, and in the case of the latter, work better in regards to presenting a unified product.

We're not talking square pegs and holes here. This isn't kindergarten. These are giant, complex, and ultimately malleable systems, and you are quite an idiot for trying to act like they are as inflexible as you are.

>>50342794

In the same post, I define low magic; it takes time, longer than just a minute, isn't always safe and often requires a little preparation more than having reagents on hand. It's powerful and deadly, but you don't get access to that shit until later on or at least you get access to it but there's a cost or a balancing act, and it's not just memorizing the spell or having the reagents on hand then bam ,you can throw a fireball.

Fluff-wise, I consider GRRM's world low magic, the Silmarrilion low-magic, Thieves World, etc. while shit like The Witcher has high magic but is low/dark fantasy.

>>50343099
If we're really talking "default" then everyone would roll 3d6 down the line, making it highly unlikely for you to play a decent spellcaster, and even if you did get one through the 1d4 you roll for HP at first level doesn't give you much barrier from dying at 0 HP (no -10 buffer zone for pansies). And the average cleric is is going to flub his spells 15% of the time.

But here's the thing, most of those default rules fell by the wayside, because players decided they were too gritty, and they wanted something more heroic. Over time the game was modified to suit those tastes, and popular houserules made their way into later versions of the game. So as a system that sells itself as being open to modification, D&D is a demonstrated success.

>>50342159
...but M&M actually is a good system for low magic settings. You can build completely mundane martials with the kind of physical prowess of Fafhrd or the variety and depth of skills as the Gray Mouser, without any magical bullshit, and still have them remain competitive against fantastic beasts of their power level. It's actually a completely valid system to run Sword and Sorcery.

I wish more people talked about eberron.

>>50340851
It's not those things aren't D&D, it's that D&D is not (just) those things.

>>50343272
D&D is only a huge system when you include all of the magic and high power stuff, hell, most of the Dungeon Master quides pages are for magic items.
Im curious to hear what games you are considering worse then dnd 1-4, because all of the system suggested here does low magic better in every single way than dnd does.
Also I think you really dont understand GURPS at all, even the basic magic system is miles better than the regular magic system that dnd has. The Strip it down appriach is also the way you do a low tech gurps game, you simply remove all items and tech from a certain tech level, thats it.

>>50345465
not to mention, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy does all the work for you .

>>50339951
>D&D is a gonzo superhero RPG with fantasy trappings.
Isnt that exactly what generic western fantasy is?
Conan even had a comicbook.

>>50340215
>>50340243
Reminder that youre just a bunch of autistic kids, mad that the other group of autistic kids prefer using a different set of made up mechanics in their imaginary world.
Please shut the fuck up about this already. Don't like dnd? Don't use it.
I dont get it why people make their life mission to go on a anonymous crusade on the internet about some retarded shit like this.

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>>50344274
Which is why I use it for all my fantasy games
As like OP I looked at D&D and saw superheroes then looked at the system and saw shit, so I went with the system that I think does heroes the best

>>50346018
Neither of the posts you reply to were actually derisive.

You are projecting.

>>50346058
>people shouldnt be using d&d like that because i said so
>why cant they agree with me, right?
>i agree with you! anyone who doesnt agree with us is a fucking retard and should just do as we say

>>50346078
>that ferrari is not good for plowing fields
>OMG WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME HOW TO DRIVE MY CAR, WHY DO YOU HATE FERRARIS?

>>50346096
You realize that you sound exactly like a bunch of internet feminists trying to force their opinions on everyone else, right?

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>>50342069
Here, have numbers.

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>>50339951
>>50340215

>post 2 pictures of Eberron
>use it as an excuse to talk about your feelings
Nigga what are you doing?

>>50344629 has it right, let's talk more about Eberron and celebrate it's merits instead of shitting on what a RPG system CAN'T be, while there are a shitton out there that will give you what you want.

Shut up, play something else babyman.

>>50346054
Effects based systems are great for that. Just fluff to taste and gooooooo.

>>50346432
They only work when you have an assumption of a lot of points I find though, especially for more "varied" stuff. For example, GURPS, and MnM, are both fairly effect based. If you tried to build an Earthbender on MnM, you could do it pretty easily, but if you tried to do it in GURPS, you'd be more expensive, and weaker than say...a mage, built with a similar point total.

>>50346478
Which is all sorts of dumb, but whatever. I don't use GURPs for a number of reasons, and shit like that is one of them.

>>50346504
GURPS, is Damn good for low power stuff, where the PCs are mostly "normal", with a supernatural edge. Kinda like Berserk, or such. It just does *not* scale well, when people start being able to be completely bulletproof, and kick over mountains.

>>50341249
Mythras is the best gritty fantasy system out of the box.

>>50341345
3.5 gives it a run for it's money in an all-caster game

Seriously crazy shit happens when all PCs and enemies are throwing around level 9 spells

>>50340574
you get it.

>>50340215
im not shocked by eberron. eberron is a top tier setting. i love it

>>50339951
>It is not suited for the Witcher.
What would actually be suited for the Witcher?
I like the setting a lot but I've never played a campaign in it.

>>50349470
R. Talsorian is working on a Witcher TTRPG.

https://rtalsoriangames.wordpress.com/2016/11/17/witcher-dev-note-13-witchers/

>>50346112
>le internet feminists

Did you come from /v/, because that looks like an 'argument' from /v/.

>>50341249
Fantasy Craft. It's pretty much everything D&D has been trying to be since 3rd edition, only it succeeds.

>>50352521
Okay, having actually read the thread and seen that D&D does not claim to be a generic fantasy system, allow me to correct myself:

It's pretty much everything obsessive D&D fans have been trying to force D&D to be since 3rd edition, only it succeeds.

>>50339951

>it's not suited for three specific settings
>therefore it's not generic

besides, you could totally cover most of LoTR with low level play, atleast in early editions. Not super familiar with SoIF or The Witcher, though, so I can't speak to those.

>>50340243

DESU I dislike a lot of the D&D martial "option adding" shit, not because "fuck off weeb", but because 90% of it is adding magic to martials, instead of letting martials have options. I look through Tome of Battle for 3.5, and right next tp Iron Guard's Glare and a bunch of other stances that let Martials have stunning affects on the battlefield through skill and their sheer imposing might, I see them getting weird abilities that can only be explained through magic, like "I hit this thing, and if I succeed, I heal". I don't want that for my martials. I prefer things like 4e and 5e's powers, but I don't like those systems, so I find myself at an impasse. The only systems that provide martials with the kind of options I like are systems with problems inherent to them that make me not want to play them(though, to be fair, my problems with 4e are much less numerous than 5e).

I've actually been tossing the idea back and forth in my head of ripping the Tome of Battle apart and putting it back together with everything that comes off as magic based reworked to be purely skill based, and getting rid of the durations on stances(because those don't make sense in-universe) by imposing penalties to match the buffs they provide(IE Iron Guard's Glare provides +1 AC to all allies in range, and -1 AC to the user due to his focus on those attacking his allies)

DESU tome of battle would work really well as a Paladin options book, though, and that's the main thing I've been considering it as to date.

>>50352777
>getting rid of the durations on stances
wat?
They don't have durations to get rid of last I remembered. I guess technically one switches off after it triggers enough times.

>>50339951
It's US fantasy, a hodgepodge from all kindsof influences. The core is still mythical medieval europe but so much gimmckry has been tacked onto it, that it indeed cannot be classified as generic western fantasy.

>>50340342
Note that it was the design goal of first Chainmail and then D&D to recreate the battles/worlds of Howard, Leiber, Moorcock, and, yes, Tolkien.

>>50340446
>Early editions were based on Jack Vance's works combined with pulpy sword and sorcery aspects,
I call Bullshit.

From Playing At The World:
>Tellingly, Gygax does not promise in the foreword to Dungeons & Dragons that one
might use its system to recreate the myths of old: the wanderings of Odysseus, or the
exploits of Siegfried in the Nibelungenlied. Naming instead the works of Burroughs,
Howard, de Camp, Pratt and Leiber, he directs our attention to a body of literature
flush with mythological trappings but nonetheless qualitatively different in character
from myths.

And:
>However, he adamantly resists a dogmatic elevation of Tolkien to an
authority over fantasy, insisting instead that fantasy wargaming should be “a blend of
all these fantastic worlds and creatures, especially devised for recreating fantasy in
game form.”

>>50340574
>D&D has always shined from having a strong core mechanic
In the minds of its hardcore fans and in their minds only.

>>50341323
It's more renaissance than though. Dragon Age, from little I have seen of it, seems to fit the bill more. Or ASOIAF.

>>50352777
>I don't want that for my martials.
That's because you have brain damage. Get it through your stupid, thick fucking skull that supernatural =/= magic, and it is fully fucking ok for them to have shit like that.

Whats this this fucking retarded boner stupid fucks like you have for "M-m-mudaneeee!"?

>>50343272
>You can ban half the classes, restrict things to level 4, and still have a bigger and better game than some of the shit out there that is dedicated to the low magic genre.
Than some? Surely. Than a game like WFRP? No way. Probably not even better than low-level MERP/Rolemaster.

>>50353133
>it is fully fucking ok for them to have shit like that
not in my book, sorry. not my cup of tea.

>>50353207
Because, as noted above, you have fucking brain damage.

>>50352924

don't they? I haven't read in a while, I thought they did. Huh.

>>50353133

I didn't say it was inherently bad, I said I didn't want it myself. Are you some kind of specially autistic dipshit who isn't capable of accepting that other people have different tastes from you? Jesus fucking christ you're retarded.

>>50353293

that's not me, moron, that's someone else who disagrees with you. And- get this- we're both allowed to disagree with you on this. People are allowed to like different things from one another. Get that through your head.

>>50352777
I somewhat agree with you, but more on principle than on specifics. I can buy a lot of stuff as being mundane. Fantastical and extrodinary, sure, but still non-magical.

Where I draw the line is where people feel the need to turn martial into demigod or give them magic in order to justify such acts to themselves.

To them, I can't simply have a fighter with endurance high enough to hold his breath for hours, I need a supernatural maneuver that is a copypasted waterbreathing spell.

I'm also not opposed to martial healing, but that might be because I started with 4e

>>50340215
It was marketed as a low-fantasy Vietnam simulator for twenty-five years, and people saw it played as if it were. The rot set in at the tail end of 2nd Ed and by 3.5 the disease was terminal: D&D was it's own mutant offspring still clothed in the moist caul of birth. That filthy afterbirth camouflaged it, and it was played with blaster wizard, healbot cleric, sword-and-board fighter and coward rogue for many years thereafter.

>>50353327
>>50353304
You're allowed to dislike it.

And I'm allowed to call you a braindamaged 'tard and laugh at your tears when you can't ever do jackshit in actual games.

Enjoy being the caster's bitchboy because you can't accept Martials can and should have actually good things, not just the pathetic little snipings you think are 'ok' because of muh m-mindane.

>>50353343
>To them, I can't simply have a fighter with endurance high enough to hold his breath for hours, I need a supernatural maneuver that is a copypasted waterbreathing spell.
Yes. You need to be fucking supernatural to do supernatural things. Why is this such a fucking hard concept for you, faggot?

>>50340479
This. e6 is pretty much the only way to play.

>>50340574
>D&D has always shined from having a strong core mechanic
lmao

>>50341399
>Fantasy HERO
My fav for low fantasy stuff.

>>50353374

well I mean, I'm playing a caster in both my current games, so I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that result... And besides which, like I said, I don't have a problem with options, I have a problem with the way specific examples of those options are flavoured. Honestly my proposed go-through-and-remove-magic would largely be changing flavour more than changing the effects.

And yeah, I guess you are allowed to say that. Doesn't make you not a retarded autist who can't stand being around people who disagree with him.

>>50353343

I can agree with you... except when you start talking about holding your breath for hours. That's magic dude. That's clearly magic. That's like drawing your sword and cutting a mountain in half, then saying "What? No. That wasn't magic, I'm just strong."

>>50353467
I'm going to cut in here and again remind you that supernatural =/= magic. It doesn't have to BE MAGIC. But its not mundane. You can train so hard you gain supernatural skills or abilities.

But you don't get to do superhuman things and then claim to just be mundane.

>>50353467
We're talking people approaching the power level of gods, many of whom weren't even human in the first place. Batman is not magical, and a high level martial should be like fantasy Batman, albeit with the focus on either equipment, training or mental capabilities shifting dependent on class.

>>50353467
even fucking space marines can do it only for like 30 minutes

>>50353544
Batman is plotarmor incarnate, and this is coming from a guy that really likes Batamn. Ultra shitty example to use.

>>50353525
>You can train so hard you gain supernatural skills or abilities.
In fantasy, I don't like this. I'd prefer if it was magic, that all powerful souls held magic, and that the fighter and the wizard are doing things with the same force (albeit very differently).

The idea you can just bench-press your way to STR 30 makes me want to leave the table, much like a mary-sue or lolicon bait character would. It's cringy.

>>50352777
>I hit this thing, and if I succeed, I heal
Minor point, but HP in D&D (at least in most editions) is explicitly not just meat points. It's also fatigue, morale, luck, plot armor, etc. Regaining HP from successfully hitting someone isn't necessarily your wounds closing, it could also be an adrenaline rush (or morale boost) from something working and seeing your opponent weakened, or it could be that your god likes that particular move and gives you a bit of protection the next time you get hit, or any number of other things.

>>50353525

in this context, saying "supernatural" isn't any better than saying "magic". It's just a slightly different definition for the same idea, and doesn't fit the image I want. Like I said- there's a place for supernatural characters(IE paladins, and i would abuse the SHIT out of ToB when building a Paladin), but there should also be a place for non-supernatural ones to have the same options, and I wish we'd get more choices.

>>50353544

Batman can't hold his breath for hours. Now, if you want to do an equipment focus, there's no reason you couldn't go for an amulet of waterbreathing, sure, but that's a magic item. Fantasy!Batman would abuse the shit out of magic items. What we're talking about is more like Fantasy!Punisher, powerful enough to hold his own, but not as directly powerful as casters and the like.

>>50353588
>The idea you can just bench-press your way to STR 30 makes me want to leave the table, much like a mary-sue or lolicon bait character would. It's cringy.
That's your opinion. Works perfectly fine for me. You're a hero, you can do absurd bullshit like training so hard you unlock an inner power.

Not everything has to be fucking magic. Its just not mundane.

>>50353612
Your image is shit, is what people are telling you. Its stupid and retarded, and limited for a reason.

Stop having shit tastes. You don't get to have supernatural powers and call it just mundane. Literally go eat shit.

>>50353601

I agree with the stuff about the gods, atleast, which is why I said I like Paladins as a good host for Tome of Battle stuff.

>>50340215

>not playing 2e

kek

seriously, D&D is not just 3.0 onwards. If you tried out the older versions you'd find some of the grittiest, harshest games out there. Fuck man, in my 2e campaign I almost got wiped by fucking GOBLINS, and my fighter buddy almost died because a Huecuva fucking scratched him and gave him AIDS or some shit like that. 2e was HARD CORE.

>>50346018
>Don't like dnd? Don't use it.
I do like D&D.

I don't like when I get some whiny player who deliberately picks the options that contribute less (after being warned) and then whines about being a less valuable team member anyways.

And typically the cause is "muh not weaboo fightan magics", IE: actively avoiding any of the classes with larger than life abilities besides damage output, in a game where the second half is all about those abilities.

>>50353661
Oh, I see. You're one of those 2e grogs. Suddenly, everything's explained.

>>50353653

you're that same autistic fuck from earlier, aren't you? I'm not saying Supernatural abilities, I'm saying abilities that have an impact on the battlefield, shit like Iron Guard's Glare, which can be used to protect allied casters and give them time to lay down the punishment. It doesn't have to be supernatural(or not as directly supernatural, a la on hit healing) to be powerful. Stop being so narrow minded and consider that maybe... just maybe... other people have different ideas from you, and those can be just as valid.

>>50346399
See >>50353678

I'm not complaining about the game. I like the game. I'm complaining about other people.

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>>50353696

>I don't have any actual arguments to level, so I'll just make a vague attack on your character

I see. Well, I guess I won't waste my time on you anymore.

>>50353678
Bingo. Nothing pisses me off more, and its why I loath these "B-but muh mundane!" faggots more then anything.

You can either be a Hero, which means yes, you are fucking supernatural, although very possibly not magic, or you are mundane, and you follow the rules of reality and suck shit.

But don't you fucking dare open your trap and start whining about how you should get 'totally mundane versions' of the shit others get. Thats not how it fucking works.

>>50341249
Basic Roleplaying

>>50353698
>It doesn't have to be supernatural(or not as directly supernatural, a la on hit healing) to be powerful.
Yes, it does. It doesn't get to look like supernatural/magic power, act like it, but not BE it. Go fuck yourself, you rancid cunt.

You can either be powerful, and supernatural/magic, or not. But when you chose not, stop fucking whining you don't get options. That was your retarded choice.

And its not one person. Many disagree with your dribbling retardation.

>>50349470
There's a GURPS witcher package someone put together.

Other than Witcher Signs, they simply picked out the witcher-appropriate character options. Works, because witcher is mostly at the power level GURPs is good at.

Then you use Ritual Path Magic, which fairly accurately represents Witcher magic (you'll want to add a couple of exceptons for drawing mana from different elemental sources in the area but that's not too hard.

Other than that you can basically just pick up GURPS Fantasy and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and go.

>>50353588
It's like any super hero setting. Dr. Strange powers might be actual magic. But The Hulks are gama rays or Thor's godhood.

Gama rays don't work that way in real life, but it's "magic" in the sense they work in supernatural ways in the comic books.

Demanding that Bruce Banner be dead from radiation poisoning because that's how it works in real life is retarded.

>>50353525
>>50353133

If you're going to shit on someone, at least have the decency to know what you're shitting about.

You are thinking of Extraordinary, not Supernatural.

>Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
>Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics.

>Supernatural Abilities (Su)
>Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

>>50352777
Have you looked at Path of War?

It's like ToB, but with much more variety.

It should be much easier to pick nonmagical disciplines from there and go, and if you do want to tweak stuff, you have more to work with than ToB offers.

>>50353784
No, I'm using the actual words, not the retarded shit D&D uses.

This might be a hard concept, I realize.

>>50353828
>talking about D&D
>not following the terms D&D uses

So you're being deliberately obtuse, got it.

>>50353369
kek.

Started with 2e's grand-quests and high-powered fantasy.

I would have had 0 interest in low magic fantasy vietnam.

Game hasn't been than since pre-2e.

If you build a character in 3x/4e/5e expecting low magic vietnam despite all of the evidence and warnings to the contrary, it's your own fault for being ridiculous when you're disappointed.

>>50353772
Fantasy is a completely different milieu to superheroes, and D&D has become the bastard child of both.

>>50353601
>Minor point, but HP in D&D (at least in most editions) is explicitly not just meat points.
this is an idea that isn't pursued in mechanics with any rigor. in fact, this claim is tacked on veneer, an afterthought, a rationalization for the simple mechanic of hitpoints, which is derived from wargames. realizing the limitations of this simple mechanic, Gygax added a few line to give it a rationale for why it worked like it did.

it's not convincing but I suppose hardcore D&D fans just squint their eyes and move on.

>>50342249
He's not talking about 3.PF, you cock throater.

>>50353882
i blame munchkins and powergamers

>>50353882
>D&D has become the bastard child of both.
Which is something you have to accept if you play the game.

>>50353407
>e6 is pretty much the only way to play.
Ugh. No thanks. Defeats the whole purpose of playing D&D, IMO.
We start campaigns at level 8 and run to 16-18.

>Fantasy HERO
And when we want low or mid-powered fantasy, we pick a game like this, that's actually good at it.

I'd actually be happy to go with a universal superheroes game like M&M instead, except for the fact that its gameplay is so bland and repetitive and tedious.

If you were to add in things like ability damage, and more status effects, and get rid of that godawful wound system and make a few other drastic changes, it COULD be made into a good game; but by default it's so miserable a slog to play that I literally gave my corebook away after a yearlong campaign and realizing I'd rather have no game at all than play M&M again.

>>50353890
Oh, god. Not just a grog, but one of those IT HAS TO BE MEATPOINT faggots. You really are just a worthless human being, aren't you?

>>50353784
If a character is "Mundane" then by definition they have neither (Su) capabilities, nor (Ex) ones.

IE they're level <=5 NPC characters, possibly with more feats than their level would allow.

>>50353935
you are what's wrong with tg

>>50353935
Hey now, not everyone who thinks "HP=Meat Points" even necessarily dislikes D&D.

>>50353678 again, reporting in.

I make them explicitly meat points, because they do a shit job of representing anything else.

Fatigue is all well and good so long as the mechanics actually handle that.

In D&D they don't, so HP=meat-points .

Which is fine, because I straight up play it as a fantasy superheroes game, and don't try to make ridiculously powerful mechanics support "low magic fantasy" in the late levels of the game.

>>50353935
Anon, HP as luck points does not make sense on any mechanical level simply because of the existence of potions of healing. They have always just been meat points. Your character is a superhuman freak.

>>50354050
And you are what's wrong with humanity. Subhuman filth. Use capitulation and punctuation, and its fucking /tg/ you goddamn animal.

>>50340215
Because Sword and Sorcery has been the bedrock foundation for all the mechanics behind D&D, but people tend to conflate that with generic fantasy when really most of Conan was "Find accent technology, use out to kill shit and take their stuff." and "Find horrors from beyond space and time, kill it and take it's shit."

>>50354064
But anon all PCs _are_ superhuman freaks.

>>50354064
>>50354091
Agreed. "Superhuman freak" describes all characters above level 5, and many characters below level 5.

And that's not a bad thing.

>>50354064
Potions of healing are 1 half healing, and 1 half 5 Hour Energy. Duh.

>>50354069
>capitulation
Capitalization. Capitulation is a different word entirely.

>>50353931
>HERO
Pretty much my system waifu. It does 95% of settings better then the systems made for those settings.

Defintely on the simulationist spectrum of gaming though.

>>50354125
Damn accursed spellchecker. I clicked on the wrong thing, and it killed the joke.

>>50354110
It's why I always have PC's backstories involve an omen of some kind.

>>50353915
>evidence and warnings
It's not exactly written on the front of the book, is it? You have to delve the community (which is pretty insular) to learn more.
>>50353869
Same, but also fuck you.

>>50354117
>Potions of healing are 1 half healing, and 1 half 5 Hour Energy. Duh.
See, that is the problem. The rationales are getting ever more abstruse. The cold hard truth is that it is a simple gamist mechanic derived (and expanded) from boardgames and kept as legacy through the editions. It was part of the first ever attempt to recreating the 20th fantasy stories via roleplaying (even if it wasnt called that way) and as such it is not a very precise approximation. And because it is not very precise, you need various rationales for it and the way it works.

Some people can't stand this shoehorning, other people have no problems with it.

>>50342587
The "backfire" options also make magic better in other ways at the cost of becoming unreliable, and you can only access them at levels 6+, since they are from prestige classes, and that level magic is far from "low magic".

>>50354064
>HP = Meat points
>No spiral of death
>Your character is a freak
>Every fucking last creature has them
You make no sense from sim standpoint, and no more sense from most other standpoints. Perhaps you think that meat is steel and pain is meaningless.

HP is an abstraction, it's not meat points. Potions of Healing both mend wounds and replenish vitality.

>>50354254
>It's not exactly written on the front of the book, is it?
It's written plain as day, IN the book. just skim the character options.

And, unless your GM and the other players have never played before, or they're real pricks deliberately setting you up for a bad time, you should know what you're getting into. They'll tell you.

Also fuck you too.

>>50354585
>skim the character options
Angry axe guy
Singing faggot
Christfag
Hippy
Sword guy
Karate guy
Two sword hippy
Wizard
Other Wizard
"Hmm, I'll pick sword guy"
>Other players will immediately show you tiers, CharOp and shit
You wish. If they were good-natured and talented you'd be playing something else.

>>50354431
freak in comparison to the real world, not in comparison to the other people in D&D land. They all have a ton of meat points.

D&D land bears next to no resemblance to reality.

>>50354560
Why do I need red bull to recover from working out too hard then? Why can't I just relax for an hour to regain a % of my HP? Why don't athletics and str checks and acrobatics checks cause me HP damage?

hp as an abstraction is not mechanically supported. mechanically speaking HP = meat points.

>>50354687
>skim the character options
>Barbarian
hits stuff
>Bard
rockstar makes the rest of the party awesome at life
>Paladin
hits stuff, with some utility
>Druid
control all of nature
>Fighter
hits stuff
>Monk
wuxia movies
>Ranger
hits stuff, minor utility, comes with a pet dog
>Wizard, Sorcerer
warps reality, tons of utility
>Cleric
warps reality, kills zombies, heals people.

>>50354687
>Other players will immediately show you tiers, CharOp and shit
>You wish. If they were good-natured and talented you'd be playing something else.
Maybe they simply like the magic superhero RPG.
We always did. "Newbie? The character options are not equally good choices. It's a design flaw, but we still like this game better than the alternatives we've seen for the genre. Here's a printout of the class tier list, and a brief explanation of what tiers mean. Pick something tier 3 or better that looks fun. Here's an index of class guides to help you avoid trap options. I typically don't rely on them heavily, but they can be helpful in evaluating character options. You're also more than welcome to grab a Psionic Class or a Path of War class, here are the PDFs of those. They're fighty types that are Tier 3. Sword and Sorcery? No man, we play that game tomorrow. This game you start out as regular guys and through training eventually work your way up to being the avengers, but with more Dr. Strange and Tony Stark."

>>50354750
>Why do I need red bull to recover from working out too hard then?
>Why don't athletics and str checks and acrobatics checks cause me HP damage?

These are mutually exclusive. Pick one. The why is because neither of those represent superficial damage in threatening or dangerous situations.

>Why can't I just relax for an hour to regain a % of my HP?

You do, it's called Resting.

>>50354750
>D&D land bears next to no resemblance to reality.
unless you're playing e4, that is.

>>50354907
They're not mutually exclusive.

Working out while people swing a sword at you (IE dodging) wears your HP out and you need magical healing, or several days of bedrest, even if you "never actually got hit".

Meanwhile, if I dodge a trap using reflex? (assuming it's not an AoE), I take no damage. If I sprint, climb rope, or do other equally physically demanding tasks? no damage.

>Resting
takes a full night's sleep to regain a pittance of HP. that's wounds slowly healing, not taking a breather after working out.

>>50354899
>We always did.
You are a tremendous rarity. I applaud you, but you are unlike any group I've seen or heard of.

>>50354907
>it has to be a threatening or dangerous situation in order to count as HP loss
So if I deliberately stab myself when there's nothing around to threaten me, I don't lose any HP? Great to know.

>>50354957
getting stabbed sounds pretty dangerous brah

>>50354992
Nuh-uh, getting a piercing isn't dangerous so why isn't stabbing yourself?

>>50354957
You misunderstand.

If you try to stab yourself and miss, then unlike working out, you still lose HP much of the time, but HP loss doesn't mean you actually got injured. You still need magical healing or weeks of bedrest to fix this kind of tired though.

>>50339951
Had anyone mentioned Mystara yet? That's another high fantasy magitech setting AND only an idiot will argue that it's not old school.

Even old school d&d wasn't swords and sorcery.

>>50354957
>>50354948

You're being deliberately obtuse.

As an abstraction it counts for both wounds and the draining of vitality, you fuck nut.

If you're hit, you are hit. Any damage that isn't critical or mortal is superficial in nature. Still doesn't mean it's meatpoints. If you're hit with many arrows, the ones that aren't criticals or mortal hits would just graze you. You don't look like a fucking pincushion.

If you stab yourself, you take superficial damage unless you're a dumbass who willingly cause a coup de grace on yourself doing critical damage or mortal damage. Those are like stabbing yourself in the heart or slitting the wrist.

>takes a full night's sleep to regain a pittance of HP. that's wounds slowly healing, not taking a breather after working out.

Maybe in shit editions, 5e has Short and Long Rest mechanics.

>>50355007
look man you should probably see a therapist if you don't see the problem with stabbing yourself.

>>50355014
But it totally makes sense because muh abstraction.

>>50354950
That's not hyperbole, either. First thing that happens when a player tells me they've never played pathfinder is I set their expectations regarding power levels and magic items, explain what tiers are and why they matter, and give them a quick rundown of what the classes are like, and either pass them a class guide, or tell them to google a class guide for whatever they pick, until they're more comfortable building something from scratch.

>>50355040
>You're being deliberately obtuse.
This coming from the guy who insists that the ability survive being dunked into magma is anything other than meatpoints.

>>50354294
>Some people can't stand this shoehorning

If you're calling it shoehorning, it's pretty obvious which one you are. The group of insane autists that, after complaining about something and then receiving an explanation that counters their complaint, decide to instead seek more inconsequential details rather than seeing the larger picture,

HP is an abstraction, and it works pretty well. There's nothing particularly "abstruse" about the idea of healing potions healing more than just purely physical wounds, and the idea that healing a physical wound can also alleviate stress and return energy to someone isn't as "shoe-horned" as you want to pretend it is.

You don't understand HP, and since it's something that is part of a system you've decided to hate, you've chosen to keep not understanding it and making a fool of yourself by complaining inanely about something even small children are quick to understand.

>>50355040
>As an abstraction it counts for both wounds and the draining of vitality, you fuck nut
but only sometimes, right?

That attack got past my HP and hit me, and I'm injured in a way that will take magical healing or weeks of bedrest, but it's just a scratch, not like, a real injury.

Most of that is just being tired from physical exertion, but physical exertion doesnt reduce hp in any other context.

>>50355125
nobody ever claimed it was a GOOD abstraction.

>>50355125
>That attack got past my HP and hit me, and I'm injured in a way that will take magical healing or weeks of bedrest, but it's just a scratch, not like, a real injury.

What the attack a critical or mortal wound? No? Then it's superficial.

Where are you getting weeks of bedrest from? It takes a night of full rest to recover.

>>50355145
Nigga it's not even a consistent abstraction.

>>50355164
>Where are you getting weeks of bedrest from? It takes a night of full rest to recover.
earlier editions than the one you're using.

>>50355173
I see you've finally caught up with the rest of the class

>>50355114
>You don't understand HP, and since it's something that is part of a system you've decided to hate, you've chosen to keep not understanding it and making a fool of yourself by complaining inanely about something even small children are quick to understand.
Projecting and lies.

>Don't Understand HP
I understand it just fine. The problem is the mechanics don't line up with the rationalization.

>since it's something that is part of a system you've decided to hate
I like D&D just fine. I'm >>50354899
It's actually one of my favorite 3 or 4 games out of the dozens I've tried over the years.

>you've chosen to keep not understanding it and making a fool of yourself by complaining inanely about something even small children are quick to understand.
>Don't look at the man behind the curtain! It doesn't matter if the facts don't support my explanations! Never mind that small children only "understand" if because they miss how the facts aren't adding up to my claim!

I like D&D. D&D is 2 of my top four RPGs (Pathfinder and 5e, depending on the kind of campaign I want to run/play). That doesn't mean that the "abstraction" of HP makes sense in the context of all of the game mechanics.

That's the explanation given, but all the mechanics point to meat points.

>>50355102
>This coming from the guy who insists that the ability survive being dunked into magma is anything other than meatpoints.

Anon, if we're going to be pedantic about it, you should technically be choking to death before even touching magma if you're that close to it.

But you don't do you?

This isn't a problem with HP, it's a problem with no mechanical differentiation between kinds of damage and wounds beyond a label. Being burned badly is no different mechanically then having bad frostbite.

>earlier editions than the one you're using.

So the shit ones.

>>50355217
5e has its own share of problems. Shitty multiclassing, number design that makes PVP broken as fuck, limited character customization because of the very small number of published options.

And that's not even getting to the part that it barely supports high level play at all due to the way it has nerfed the classes capable of high level play and extracted the magic items from the world.

but yes, since we're talking about "Fantasy Superheroes" D&D, we're talking more about 3.x than 5e, since it kindof sucks at that genre.

>>50355217
>Anon, if we're going to be pedantic about it, you should technically be choking to death before even touching magma if you're that close to it.
Alright then, smartass, how about a fall from terminal velocity onto a god damn rock? What's vitality and stamina have to do with surviving that?

>>50355320
Nothing, that's a mortal wound.

>>50339951
You're thinking more of 3.pf and on. Early D&D was more 'gritty' although it wasn't at all realistic either.

>>50355348
Except I've played characters that would only lose 1/3 of their HP at most from a fall like that, so it's clearly not a mortal wound for everyone.

>>50355296
The game is flat out not made for PVP. So if you try to use it for it, well, that's your boneheaded retardation.

>>50355356
>3.0 and on
And most of 2e, for that matter.

Old Gritty D&D hasn't been the D&D people are referring in 30 years.

>>50355374
>Except I've played characters that would only lose 1/3 of their HP at most from a fall like that, so it's clearly not a mortal wound for everyone.

That's not a consequence of HP then. That's a problem of a shit system.

It should straight up be a mortal wound.

>>50355403
That's just an opinion, and not a particularly bright one at that.

>>50355386
>The game is flat out not made for PVP.
Agreed.

Whereas Pathfinder handles PVP just fine, because it has "NPC built using player rules" as the benchmark determining the numbers for monsters.

Hence, one of the reasons you would choose Pathfinder over 5e - because you're not ruling out PVP as a possibility, and because its plausible you might have PCs come to blows in the game.

>>50355414
>That's just an opinion, and not a particularly bright one at that.

Better one than yours.

>>50355403
Maximum fall damage = 20d6 = 70 damage.

If you have more than 70hp, you have more than a 50% chance of surviving a fall from orbit at terminal velocity.

>>50355403
>Vesna Vulovic (Yugoslavia) was 23 working as a Jugoslavenski Aerotransport hostess when she survived a fall from 10,160 m (33,333 ft) over Srbsk, Kamenice, Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic), on 26 January 1972 after the DC-9 she was working aboard, blew up. She fell inside a section of tail unit.

The other guy is right, your opinion is actually shit.

>>50355428
And now all you have to fall back on is ad hominem. Thank you for effectively conceding that I'm right.

>>50355445
Hence meat points.

>inb4 calling them meat points means I hate the game.
wrong. It means I acknowledge that if HP are an abstraction, theyre an extraordinarily shitty abstraction, and are treated as meat points by the game in every way, so I just roll with it and call them meat points.

It's a superheroes game anyways, why would I get buttmad if thor and Iron man can manage to survive a fall from orbit because of supernatural (notice the lowercase s) or (Extraordinary (ex) for you fucking loonie autists in the thread) toughness?

>>50355445
>Maximum fall damage = 20d6 = 70 damage.

Nope. DM Fiat. Terminal velocity = mortal wound. Automatically doing death saves.

>She fell inside a section of tail unit.

So she didn't take the brunt of the fall. Gotcha. Still, mortal wounds cause death saves. You can still survive that.

>>50355507
>Nope. DM Fiat. Terminal velocity = mortal wound. Automatically doing death saves.
Funny, that's not what any of the rules say.

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>>50339951
>Dark Sun
Hah. Nothing like LotR
>Dragonlance
LotR if you switch all the name tags, changed the world, feeling, and focused on totally different aspects. So... not LotR
>Eberron
OP post. About as far away as possible.
>Forgotten Realms
At first I was like. Yeah its' LotR, then I was like, No way, then it came back around. It's LotR. Even with all the crazy side stuff.
>Al-Qadim
Hah. Nothing like LotR
>Greyhawk
Greyhawk is fucking crazy. MOON cities. D&D's "Default" is nothing like LotR
>Mystara
1/3 yes. 2/3 no.
>Nentir Vale
Fuck. Yeah it kinda is... Perhaps ascetically different? Unless you start sailing in the planar stuff. Which you should Then it's different
>Planescape
Hah. Nothing like LotR. Unless you find a portal there I guess.
>Ravenloft
Hah. Nothing like LotR
>Birthright
It's like LotR. Some obvious differences
>Blackmoor
It's like LotR
>Council of Wyrms
Nothing like LotR
>Spelljammer
Hah. Nothing like LotR
>Golarion (Counts)
Depends where you go. I'll give this 50/50

3.3 / 15 like LotR
13.7 / 15 No where like it.

Yep. Over all agree OP.

>>50355500
Nope, fuck you.

Your opinion is shit.

>>50355517
>Funny, that's not what any of the rules say.

Then the rules are shit. DM's call.

>>50355208
>That's the explanation given, but all the mechanics point to meat points.

I like how in your rush to defend your ego, you managed to miss the key part of the post you're quoting.

>There's nothing particularly "abstruse" about the idea of healing potions healing more than just purely physical wounds, and the idea that healing a physical wound can also alleviate stress and return energy to someone isn't as "shoe-horned" as you want to pretend it is.

Basically, when someone says you don't understand HP, don't do them a favor by doing a dance and waltz to confirm that.

>>50355503
>theyre an extraordinarily shitty abstraction
hey, hey - they are the very first abstraction. give credit where credit is due. they just havent been improved since then (within D&D).

>>50355464
That's a fluke.

In D&D on the other hand, your 50% survival rate is standard at level 10 with average HP, and it only gets better from there.

>>50355507
>DM Fiat
Oh. well if that's in, then I guess:

DM Fiat HP are meatpoints.
DM Fiat No Magic Items.
DM Fiat +20 Magic Items are fine at level 1.
DM Fiat the only class allowed is paladin.
DM Fiat you can only hit the enemy if you gave me $20 in food before the game started, regardless what the dice say.

That's the end of that discussion.

>>50355593
>>DM Fiat HP are meatpoints.
>DM Fiat No Magic Items.
>DM Fiat +20 Magic Items are fine at level 1.
>DM Fiat the only class allowed is paladin.
>DM Fiat you can only hit the enemy if you gave me $20 in food before the game started, regardless what the dice say.

>That's the end of that discussion.

Can you jerk off your own ego any more you shit DM fuck?

>>50355593
What point did you try to make?
Proving you can play the game poorly doesn't bar people from playing the game well.

>>50355576
>There's nothing particularly "abstruse" about the idea of healing potions healing more than just purely physical wounds, and the idea that healing a physical wound can also alleviate stress and return energy to someone
I didn't mention that because that wasn't something I took issue with. The things I took issue with are the inconsistencies that guy ignored like they don't exist.

>>50355624
I don't have a smug enough reaction image for this.

>>50355700
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRvpGGc9Jv8&ab_channel=TheGhettoLove

>>50355631
>What point did you try to make?
>>50355624
>What point did you make?
You really need me to spell it out for you? Okay sure.

>"Nope, that's not how this game works because my own random houserules!"

If you can't argue your point without DM fiat, then you're not discussing the game at all, you're discussing your own houserules or random handwaivings.

DM Fiat is not valid evidence for any argument, because you can say ANYTHING via DM fiat.

What, are you new to gaming, or just new to trying to discuss games on the internet.

>>50355715
Perfect.

>>50355518
>Golarion (Counts)
>Depends where you go. I'll give this 50/50

Demi-Raven loft
Land of Robots and spaceships
Old Germanic Legend of the north
America land
The land of evil are (mostly) good guys!
This list can go on a bit more.

You MAY accuse Paizo of being unoriginal, you may not compare it to Tolkien
Golarion nothing like Lord of the Rings.

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Some observations about HP as meat points that are commonly overlooked.

Constitution is your literal meat points. How is this? A vampire's bite drains Constitution, quite literally eating your lifeblood, your meat points. A fuckton of monsters and poisons attack you bodies hardiness and health bypassing you HP entirely. From the chilling touch of a wraith which saps the strength of your flesh, to the effects of radiation, to a cairn linnorm's death curse which ages your flesh at an accelerated rate and other things.

HP is very much an abstraction of multiple things, but it is also very heavily influenced by the health of your body.

>>50355717
If your argument involves DM Fiat, you're literally talking about ignoring how the game works.

And thats fine if you're discussing making houserules or something.

It's retarded if you're arguing about how a game actually *IS*, because the published game will not include your houserules, regardless of what they are.

>>50355757
But at no point does getting hit by a regular sword damage your constitution score.

When we say meat points, we're not talking about your hardiness, we're talking about how much injury you can sustain before dying.

There's one guy (maybe 2) arguing it's a plausible abstraction, and at least three of us poking holes in that silly claim and stating that it's better to just roll with the mechanics how they actually work rather than pretending the abstraction holds up under any degree of scrutiny.

>>50355758
As soon as you mention fiat or houserules you're not discussing the same game anymore, you're discussing what you wish the game was.

And in some cases, when you're the GM, you can plausibly make it into that. But while it may be a similar game, at that point it's not the same game. You can't expect those houserules to be there if you go play and someone else is GMing.

>>50355795
I did say it was heavily influenced by your con score didn't I? And your sword can attack con, if you use the optional crit rules. Most of the time you're just whittling away at the person's luck, resilience, stamina, and such. Sometimes you get a lucky strike and give them a nasty bruise, or a minor cut. That is until they run out of luck and get that big wound which puts them down.

That back and forth in sword fights until one of them gets a good gut strike and they go down. That's what HP represents, along with AC. It's a slightly wonky abstraction that takes a bit of effort to grok, but once you do, you'll see how much it actually makes sense.

>>50355890
>And your sword can attack con, if you use the optional crit rules.
>if you use the optional crit rules.
>optional crit rules.
>optional

>>50355890
>That's what HP represents, along with AC.
Agreed.

>It's a slightly wonky abstraction
Understatement, and doesn't cover how inconsistently it applies.

>that takes a bit of effort to grok
Not hard to grok at all. It's spelled out in plain english in the books.

>once you do, you'll see how much it actually makes sense.
It might, if they rewrote the mechanics that don't make sense so that they would work with that abstraction (and once again, I'm not referring to the possibility of healing "tiredness" through magic, that's fine).
But with those other mechanics treating HP as meatpoints, the abstraction doesn't hold up.

>>50355936
>But with those other mechanics treating HP as meatpoints, the abstraction doesn't hold up.
And so many people just drop the pretense and consider it the videogamey HP system it acts like, like your health bar in a fighting game.

>>50355906
Yes, optional. Some like a bit more nastiness in their fights where there is a chance of ability damage to occur and thus much quicker character deaths. Other don't, so the devs included it as an optional rule to use.

>>50355936
Yeah, i've never liked how the heal spells are called cure ____ wounds either. But then again, I've never been able to think of something better to replace it. Most of the time, I just consider them to be healing the minor cuts and bruises that sap your HP, aka your "wounds".

>>50355986
If it's optional, it's irrelevant.

>>50355841
>>50355890
Fiat, Houserules, or Optional Rules*

As soon as you start including those, unless they're the opening premise of your discussion, you're discussing a different game than everyone else.

>>50356005
>>50355986
That said:

If you're using that optional rule, then yes, your Constitution score more or less becomes your meat points (assuming you Iron out all the hiccups of things that should really be hitting your meat points but instead target what is now just your endurance).

But without that optional rule and the changes needed to make Constitution plausibly represent meat points in lieu of HP, your Constitution is not your Meat Points, simply your hardiness/healthiness.

>>50355418
>Pathfinder handles PVP just fine

What the actual fuck.
The game's class balance is even worse than in 3.5, its one of the worst rpg's to have pvp. Not that 5e or any edition handles it well, but jesus fuck man.

>>50356189
The game's class balance is bad between tiers in terms of versatility and access to non-damaging powers, yes.

But the math is fairly well balanced across the board in terms of HP/Damage/Saves (with a small number of outliers), and within 1 tier, or 2 adjacent tiers, the versatility balance is close, too. Even a 3-tier spread is good enough, if PVP is merely a strong likelihood rather than the focus of the game.

All in all, Pathfinder does PVP pretty well, albeit not perfectly.

Can someone explain why 5e is bad for PvP? Is one class better than others?

>>50356271
Theres spells that can end a one on one duel instantly and Path of War classes that can kill another character in one round, the duels would mostly be decided by the player who gets the higher Initiative roll.

>>50355593
Yes, its a fluke. Just like you being a goddamn capital H Hero, you little shit.

>>50356282
They are talking out of their ass, DnD barely can support itself if players start to make cheese builds and even then theres the random wizards who accidentally derails the campaing with a well chosen spell.
The system is just too rng heavy for it, no matter which edition.

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>>50356271
>All in all, Pathfinder does PVP pretty well, albeit not perfectly.

You're fucking delusional.

>>50356282
>Why is 5e bad for PVP.
I ran the numbers.

A round of Attacks by PCs do between 25%-45% of the HP of a CR=LV enemy, depending on your level. (lower at the higher levels)

CR=LV Monsters have between 2.75x and 8.somethingx the HP of PCs. it averages out to roughly 5.75x

35%*5.75 ~=201%.

As in, on average, hitting another PC with your attacks will do more than double their HP in damage.

>>50340382
Aren't even level 1 characters supposed to be ridiculously rare? Like 1% of the population or something stupid.
I know an 18 in a stat is supposed to be ridiculous but good luck doing anything consistency if you have anything lower than that in your main stat.
You're more or less a superhero even at lower levels.

>>50356463
Well enough that Conflict PVP, the book that turns pathfinder characters into a PVP skirmish wargame, is pretty fun and sold well enough that it got a new revised edition.

>>50356603
>Aren't even level 1 characters supposed to be ridiculously rare? Like 1% of the population or something stupid.
Depends on the GM and setting.

I have heard that position argued on the internet.

That is not how the world is modeled in any Adventure Paths, nor how any GM I've ever met ran things.

>>50356432
>muh less than 1% of characters surpass level 1
[citation and published non-contradictory examples needed]

>>50356617
Just because something sells well doesnt make it good.

>>50356322
True, those spells exist, but they're outliers, and the wizard may or may not know them, or have them prepared when combat breaks out for a variety of reasons. If I were running a game focused on PVP I might consider banning those spells. As for your PoW example, that's true at the very low levels, not so true after level 6.

>>50356602
What, how did you make those numbers, because thats not at all how the damage goes.
An average character will have 16 in his main stat and at most does 1d12+3 damage, capping at 1d12 +5 when he gets the stat to 20. At first level yeah a Fighter can burst anyone, but the same thing happens in pathfinder too.

>>50356675
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean anyone cares about your opinion.

>>50356710
>banning spells
Oh so now were taking homebrew, thanks for proving my point.

>>50356761
That's not homebrew, you idiot.

>>50356721
I looked at the average damage per round at each level, across the major fighting classes, and compared it to average monster HP across all the monsters published in the MM, for each level. Calculated the expected %HP of that damage.
Later on I also calculated the % of HP at each level for Monsters vs PCs.
Then it's just simple math.

Basically excel and math.

>>50356761
>If I were running a game focused on PVP I might consider banning those spells.
>Focused On
>Might Consider

>>50356761
Yes, anon. If I was running a Pathfinder PVP fight-club game, I *MIGHT* consider some *MILD* homebrew.

If it's just adventuring, with a chance of PVP from roleplay scenarios?

The default isn't perfect, but its good enough.

>>50356786
Thats still wrong when it comes to PC's, an average Fighter has from 36 to 51 hit points on level 5, even more if he boosts his Con or takes the toughness feat, the only way another player character could kill him in one turn is if the other player is also a fighter and uses his action surge, and thats IF he hits all of his attacks AND rolls well. You are doing your math wrong.

>>50356666
Most people don't have class levels. The fact you need this spelled out for you is fucking sad.

>>50356879
>Most people don't have class levels
>Not even NPC Classes
[Citation and Published Examples Needed]

>>50341399
>>50341319
Is GURPS Dungeon Fantasy even available in book form? Amazon comes up with nothing but a Korean edition.

>>50356840
I'm assuming he hits and gets perfectly average damage.

lets check more directly.

5e L5 Average hp=8+(5*(lv-1))+(CON*lv)=10+7*(LV-1)=40

Damage is a bit below that unless you're considering action surge and GWM benefits, then it's about at that level. Barbarian GWM seems to average like 36 at that level.

But you're right, the math is off.

Instead of 200% HP, you can expect just a bit under 100%hp at that level as average damage.

>>50357184
Most GURPS Publications are PDF Only. Getting them in print means getting them printed.

A lot of people buy them through Lulu if they want hardcopy, which will take a PDF and print it for you, and you can upload PDFs you didn't make so long as you mark them private.

>>50357230
I still dont see how Pathfinder is any better in that regard, PC damage doesnt get much higher than that in 5e, but in Pathfinder the hit rolls and damage increases alot more, the spells in general are all alot more potent than in 5e.

>>50353758

Iron. Guard's. Glare.

My sheer, indomitable physical might and presense allows me to say to everyone else in the room "No. You're not fighting them. You're fighting me.", and it makes it harder for them to attack my allies instead of me, from intimidation. That's not supernatural, and it's perfectly reasonable to not be supernatural. Same with Stand Still, and a huge number of other really good Martial abilities. Now, if I put it on a Palladin, I absolutely could fluff it as being me calling upon my God's might to cause that effect, but it doesn't have to be that.

Fuck off, you fucking cowardly moron.

>>50353797

Really? Huh, I'll have to check it out in detail then. Thanks, I'll go read that.

>>50357250
That's a shame. I'll probably still check it out, but I prefer a books to print-outs and PDFs. It's the grognard in me.

>>50357842
Yeah, I get that. I prefer PDFs during game, but I prefer hardcopies when I'm just at home reading.

If you go the Lulu route, you can get it bound like a conventional hardcover RPG book, FYI.

A lot of people just do regular printouts though.

Dungeon Fantasy probably isn't one I'd get hardbound though, simply because they often release addon supplements that expand it in Pyramid Magazine.

That one I'd want either coil bound, or in a binder in one way or another, so I could add new pages and supplements as they come out.

Alternately, hard copy of the original Dungeon Fantasy book, and then print out the articles that expand it.

But professionally printed hardcopies of the core books + GURPS Thaumatology, for rules reference are worth the effort for sure.

I'd probably also consider printing GURPS fantasy, GURPS Martial Arts, and GURPS Low-Tech.

It's a good system, the only part that's a pain is making the list of available options for your camapaign, if you're not using one of the pre-published game-modes (Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters).

Check the GURPS Trove

>>50357825
Make sure you grab both PoW books, not just the original one.

>>50357941

any chance you could throw them up? I'm not sure if I'll buy it, depends on if I decide to use it for anything.

>>50358456
>>50343745
GURPS Thread.

Link is in the GURPS General opening Pdf.

>>50359048

I was talking about the PoW books.

>>50359058
Oh. then it's in the /pfg/ Links pastebin

Under 3rd party/Dreamscarred press

>>50359210

k, thanks bro

where is paizo version of 5e?

>>50340574
But D&D has terrible systems. There's plenty less well-known ones that are way better.

>>50359943
Such as?

>>50360073
Not that guy, but for what low level D&D can accomplish, there have been several suggested in this thread.