Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

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>>50262439
Best girl.

>>50262527
But that's second worst girl, right after Sylvanas.

>>50262439
So is Jaina confirmed for doing anything, or is she just angrily sitting around taking dragon dick?

I feel like she could really use a hug from somebody. Are she and Baine still on somewhat good terms?

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Now that it is conformed that female Ogres are basically bigger white Orcs, does it mean that Mok'nathal are a stage between Mag'har and Ogres, or that they are Mag'har that once again interbred with Ogres?

>>50262604
>her heart is a crater, and we have filled it
provided you think Il'gynoth is telling the truth, she's joined the Old Gods. If he's lying, she's probably still evil, just part of the Legion or gone lone wolf

>>50262657
The crater thing could also mean Azeroth itself.

>>50262657

I really really hope they don't. That would be the most dull thing ever.

But then, it also sounds like exactly like what Blizzard would do.

>>50262657
>>50262671
I'm pretty sure Sylvanas' heart emptied a bit when Genn DOGGED her in Stormheim, it might be her. She'd be easy to tempt.

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>>50262671
>the cave shamans live in next to the Maelstrom is called the Heart of Azeroth
all shamans getting corrupted and joining the Twilight's Hammer when

>>50262680
Yeah, I really don't want Jaina to go evil. We've lost enough characters that way.

>>50262636
That's a good question. I would go for the latter, because the only source we have on Mok'Nathal is describing them as half-orc-half-ogre and I think when they were introduced they were written with mixed parentage in mind and I'll stick to that until further notice.

>>50235437

Scourge Faction.

>>50261955

A post on it.

>>50262742

Especially since she is justified in her distrust of the Horde.

>>50262742

You're not allowed to have contempt for the Horde in Anduin's Alliance.

>>50262878

Fuck Anduin and fuck Khadgar. Trusting the horde is fucking retarded. Goblins and Forsakens should be straight up genocided.

>>50262862
>>50262878
daily reminder that Jaina left the Alliance out to dry at the Broken Shore and then ran home to blame the Horde before she even knew what happened

>>50262862
She attacked first, tho.
From a city which was already used for that shit once.
And that was only not burned to the ground because the Warchief at that time gave her much leeway.

>>50262945

She killed her father and king of a sovereign human nation to protect the horde. She continued to protect them diplomatically, to the point when theramorian soldiers were killed in vanila quests and then made fun of for resisting the horde. She teleported Varian and his army out of Undercity when he was about to capture it and personally kill Thrall. She was never called on any on this. And now that her city is nuked and its civilians and women are used as target practice in SoO wanting revenge for it is evilbad insanity.

>>50262923
>literally was there the entire time until the demons poured through
>everyone sees sylvanas break ranks and withdraw.
>"Sylvanas dindu nuffin, it was jaina's fault."

>>50263000
>>literally was there the entire time until the demons poured through
she completely disappears before the Alliance even meets Gul'dan

>>50262910
>Forsaken
Yes

>Goblins
No.

Buy out the Goblins, they're not entirely useless. Forsaken are one war crime away from provoking everyone as is.

>>50262657
If Jaina does turn heel, I think she has enough sense to know not to join the Legion or Old Gods and would rather go on a one-man genocide campaign against the Horde.

>>50263017
Not true. She was there when they find Gul'dan and Tirion. And was still there when they met Gul'dan again in front of the tomb.

>>50262945
>She attacked first

What memery is this? The humans in Durotar are Kul Tiras, no?

The most Jaina did was send resources to Baine because Garrosh was too busy raping Nelves in Ashenvale to care about the Grimtotem.

>>50262978
Jaina invested half her life into believing peace was possible and serving as the devil's advocate for the Horde towards the Alliance, to the point she sacrificed her father to realize that dream. She was also one of the Alliance's most consistent voices of reason and arbiters of peace. When Garrosh nuked Theramore, she (reasonably) lost her shit.

>>50263017
She is literally present right until the cutscene.

>>50263056
Actually, Durotar questing in Cataclysm does say that Theramore attacked Durotar first in that war, because Cataclysm lore is a goddamn mess that was never properly refined. She probably didn't, canonically, but it's understandable that someone would be confused.

>>50263084
Could probably be explained as stranded Kul Tiras humans being confused for Theramore's. Stupid, but plausible.

>>50263096
Unlikely. Kul Tiras forces wear green, Theramore forces wear white. Also, all the Kul Tiras soldiers were drowned when Tiragarde Keep flooded in the Cataclysm.

>>50263099
>Implying Garrosh "If it isn't an orc, stick it like pork" Hellscream cared what frilly colors humans wear.

>>50263112
>or wouldn't lie to create an excuse to wipe a human kingdom off the map.

>>50262978
At the same time, Theramore was base through which forces of Alliance were arriving in Kalimdor to attack Tauren and Orcs in Barrens, and she did nothing about it.

It's nice to claim neutrality, while at the same time clearly aiding forces that commit war crimes.

Basically it boils down to that you're only allowed to live if you're ready blow Orcs&Forsaken.

Now the real question is that will Greymane be killed in the same raid as Jaina or will he spared for some future expansion.

>>50263172
>2016
>still buttmad that they're not going to just remove 1-2 playable races

Cataclysm was five fucking years ago.

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>>50263172
>tfw don't want to kill Greymane but if he was done right he'd be one of the best boss fights in the game
MY CURSE WILL BE THEIR UNDOING

>>50263146

>At the same time, Theramore was base through which forces of Alliance were arriving in Kalimdor to attack Tauren and Orcs in Barrens, and she did nothing about it.

By that logic Ratchet should be a horde town.

Also, what war crimes, The alliance destroys a single fucking camp made out of tents, its commander even lets the civilians go yet its somehow decried as a horrific warcrime and an atrocity against the horde. Meanwhile they nuke a city, prepare to nuke another, break their neutrality in Dalaran and plague bomb Southshore.

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>Kabal has evil Draenei waifus
Count me in.

>>50263259
>satyr with based Thal'kiel
my curiosity is piqued

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>>50263266
I don't think this is that specific skull.

>The Master
Little is known about our esteemed leader, the master alchemist Kazakus. WHO CARES? What matters is his vast knowledge of alchemy and the arcane, and the delicious power he offers binds us to him. . . TOGETHER! It binds us together, yes. Some claim that a back alley potion brewer couldn’t possibly have such knowledge, and some are foolish enough to spread rumors that he’s secretly a dragon, demon, or some other powerful entity in disguise.
LIES! SLANDER! DEFAMATION!
MAYBE IT’S ALL TRUE!
NO ONE KNOWS!
WHAT?

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>>50263340
>Kazakus is a Zandalari troll and the sinister and mysterious leader of the Kabal. No one really knows his true origins, but nor does anyone really care; instead, what they care about are the corrupted mana potions he sells. His motto is "Power should be attainable for anyone, at a price". Kazakus' tusks have become contorted and twisted due to the corrupted mana he uses, and the large red circle on the center of his stomach is a portal that goes right through his body to an unknown destination, possibly another dimension.

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>>50263393
>Pimpin' Zandalro troll
>Lots of really cool tattoos
>Belly button goes to another dimension
>Hot Belf Waifu who works on the tattoos

Kazakus has a good life.

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>>50263424
>tfw your mana game is so strong that Elves desires you

>>50263393

>the Energon cubes are ours, Auto-scum!

>>50263393

That draenei is qt

>>50263393
>>50263424
>>50263662
why are Zandalari trolls so based?
Gara'jal coming back again when

>>50263714
>Finish Tomb of Sargeras Mythic
>Avatar of Sargeras falls, his body leading to a secret chamber.
>I TOLD YA I'D BE BACK, YA SNIVELIN' WORMS!
>Queue fel trolls

>>50263738
Fel Trolls as empowered by Legion, or Trolls imprisoning Demons and draining their power, like the other Trolls did with Loa?

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>>50263077
Apparently cooperation isn't something Elves would think about.

>>50263056

The Alliance launched an invasion of Kalimdor through Theramore that happened before the Cataclysm struck. This means it predates Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale in Wolfheart. Since Gilneas did not become Alliance until well after the Forsaken invasion, it cannot be considered the "start" of the war either, even if it may have technically been the earliest conflict.

Most likely, the Forsaken invasion of Gilneas and Theramore's invasion of the Barrens happened at the same time. AFTER the Cataclysm occurs and the goblins/worgen join the Horde/Alliance, Garrosh invades Ashenvale for the first time.

>>50263760
The latter. Zandalari are too good to bow to anyone short of DA THUNDAH KING

>>50263779

Varian declared formal war in WotLK but the horde has been attacking Alliance lands since the start of the game. Ashenvale, Stromgarde, Hillsbrad etc.

>>50263760
>da Zandalari break into a secluded section of the Tomb
>find a group of Eredar summoning reinforcements
>by the power of Zul, they subdue them and force them to keep summoning
>as the demons come through the portal, the Zandalari capture them and devour them for their powers like the Drakkari did to their Loa
>hulked out demon hunter trolls led by priests that have consumed some of the most powerful eredar warlocks in creation smash the Legion and Legionfall forces on the Broken Shore, then radiate out over the Broken Isles

Jaina's heel turn was fucking dumb to begin with and was resolved by the end of MoP yet we continue to see half assed attempts to make her an antagonist now that Varian actually learned his lesson about how the Legion(or Void Lords, 'cause we all know that's were this fucking game is going now for some reason) will fuck assholes thoroughly until nothing is left if both sides don't give up the guff.

>>50263912
Through WoD she was only distrustful of the Horde, not outright antagonistic. The new issues in Legion come from a very stupid point; Sylvanas never said why they were retreating.

If she had just shouted something about the number of demons they were dealing with, everything would have been fine, but the way things worked out it really did look like the Horde was just suddenly pulling out of the fight.

>>50263776
I Lover that image, shame they don't show the high-elf reaction to this, must have been a massive 'wtf' moment when they realized they gave magic nukes to primitive mud-slappers.

>>50263912

Learned his lesson that trusting the horde will always fucks you over? Doubt it.

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>>50263340
>Virmen

>>50263912

But how else can Blizzard push a faction conflict that showed have ended at WC3?

>>50264617
Horde do evil shit and Allaince have to stop them.

>>50264617
A-fucking-men.

I don't know, I'm sick of it being forced at this point. Varian was fine but the others pushing it have always acted like bigoted, irrational children rather than anyone with an actual problem, to the detriment of otherwise good characters that don't often get touched.

>>50264617

By hiring good writers, planning out a story in advance, making believeable characters interacting based on their actual character not flipflopping around and ignoring faction fanboys and waifufags.

>>50264649

This is already going on. In MoP I was fucking livid when all those patronizing and lazy panda fucks started shit talking my draenei paladin how I'm an ebul warmonger too for having the gall to not getting genocided by the orcs again and the alliance is just as bad for resisting. Then they shit talked my religion and culture repeatedly and the game unanimously portrayed them as the wise, down the earth good guys who had everything figured down and if you disagree with them you are basically fucking stupid. Even after I had to exorcize the one who was supposed to guard aganist corruption and solved all their problems I was still a silly stupid outlander. I wanted to cleave and smite those fuck faces so bad,

>>50263779
Horde invasion of Ashenvale has been ongoing since Vanilla, Garrosh merely renewed the offensive.

>>50264740
But don't you space gweilo realize that orcs did nothing wrong and it was the demon blood that made them to do it. You should let go of your ignorant views and purify the hatred from your heart.

>fetal alcohol pandas actually believe this

>>50263424
Lore Gadgetzan seems like a damn neat place

Also, if you could have CoT raid from any point in Warcraft universe history, what would you want to see?

>>50264857
>Also, if you could have CoT raid from any point in Warcraft universe history, what would you want to see?

Sacking of the Stormwind by the Orcish Horde from the Orcish point of view. Bonus points if it features Doomhammer assassinating Blackhand, torturing Gul'dan and drinking wine mixed with the blood of Stormwind's citizens.

>>50264803
>Horde invasion of Ashenvale has been ongoing since Vanilla, Garrosh merely renewed the offensive.
Not exactly, since Vanilla Horde just hold control over old Warsong camps, in Cataclysm Garrosh denied peace propose about border in Ashenvale and start the war.

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>>50264810
>>50264740
Horde don't surf, they're all felorcs when the bombs explode.

>mfw blasting wagner during the MoP alliance intro quest and setting up a Nam playlist while doing every single quest in Nagrand in a tank

>>50264900
>old camps
which

>>50264944
yeah.
I played songs from the Great patriotic war.

>>50264857
>Also, if you could have CoT raid from any point in Warcraft universe history, what would you want to see?
First Zul'Gurub siege, or building of Atal'Hakar temple in swamp of sorrow.

>>50264992
>which
Which was builded in WC3.

>>50264649

But the Horde was supposed to stop being villains in WC3.

>>50264740

They had to pander to the Chinese somehow.

>>50265085

Yeah and I fucking loved the WC3 horde.Shamanistic underdog band of brothers trying to reclaim their freedom and forge a future for themselves. Then come later WoW my elderly orc shaman became an ally of undead and complicit in several genocides. Not being able to do anything about goblins fucking up the pristine and beautiful Azshara filled with elemental spirits was just insulting.

>>50265085
The actual Horde villains were all stopped in MoP; calm yourself.

>>50265290
It's gonna be okay, pal. Everything's gonna be alright. You'll see.

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>>50265402
>The actual Horde villains were all stopped in MoP

>>50265402

>Defending how the Horde has been done

Go away MMO Champion.

>>50265402
But she's in charge now, anon.

>>50265514
Sylvanas fanboys will shit themselves hard if she dies. I don't know why she even went full retard in the first place. All of her problems were machinations of the plot after Wrath rather than anything that existed before then.

>>50265965
I think she was a shitty person while she was alive as well. Not that that's an excuse but I've no trouble with her bwing aweful considering how arrogant she was in WC3.

>>50266231
It doesn't make sense to me why she'd have even had a problem with Varimathras' actions if she was just going to turn around and keep going with the same kind of bullshit he was pulling afterwards.

>>50266328
Sylvanas is a hypocrite.

>>50263195
Point is, the Horde could've burned Theramore down the first time. They did not, because Thrall was a very nice guy and considered the matter settled with Proudmoores death and the destruction of the Kul Tiras army and fleet.

Garosh was a far less nice guy, and had a plausible enough reason to attack.
He still overdid it, which lead to the Darkspear revolution.

>>50263195
Last I played was in BC. But Ratchet was neutral, wasn't it? While Theramoore was ally territory.
So Theramoore was not neutral. It's continued existence owed only to the good relations to the Horde.
Then it got used as staging point for war AGAIN...
Any normal ruler would've annexed it the first time.

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To be fair Jaina&Theramoore deserved what they got for not supporting Admiral Proudmoore on his righteous quest to finally get rid off blackbloods.

>>50266517

The hordes continuing existence for the third time is owned to the goodwill of humans. Jaina could have sided with her countrymen and father and remove the orcs with the help of the night elves. The humans could have just slaughtered all the orcs instead of trying to cure them after the second war. Jaina could have just tsunami'd Orgrimmar of the map. Varian could have dismantled the horde after SoO. The horde repaid all these attempts of reconciliation and working together aganist greater enemies with expansionism and genocide again and again and WoD had shown us the orcs were bad apples to start with even without the demonic bloodlust.

>>50266621
>Varian could have dismantled the horde after SoO.

Yet he ended up just giving them "pls don't do this again or else we will have to send a sternly worded letter to you".

>>50266328

Cause everything about letting Varimathras live was dumb and wrong. Putress just pulled the trigger too early. Everyone just keep putting up with forsaken villainy for no reason which is especially jarring considering how the Argent Crusade and the Cenarion Circle now borders them trying to heal the land while the forsaken are happily plaguing and scarring the land.

In fact, everything about Sylvanas is just a clusterfuck, heres how I'd wrote it.

>forsaken are much more tragic and morally ambigous, just like in vanilla, trying to deal with existence in undeath while forsaken and crusaders try to fuck them up.
>Varimathras is obviously doing his shady business, turning many of them completely evil.
>Sylvanas is a much more shadowy and subversive agent, more stuff like her shadow alliance with Magatha, maybe even use her mind control to ally with a troll tribe or a minor goblin cartel or something like that
>no retarded invasions of Dalaran, Southshore and Arathi, or portay them as a growing rift of Varimathrasites and Sylvanas' followers
>wotlk civil war still happens but it doesnt get resolved right away, Putress un-lives because he is a glorious motherfucker
>forsaken are now having a guerilla war aganist their evil breakaways
>unbelieveably savage and pragmatic war, nothing is forbidden, plague, demon summoning and necromancy used by both sides, spilling over into neighboring lands
>Arthas dies, Sylvanas knows she has to somehow unite her people, they need a goal to work towards all they all fall to mindless villainy
>she somehow manages to find and MC Calia Menethil, has her crowned as Queen of Lordaeron with herself as regent and decides to rebrand the forsaken as Lordaeron
>Calia somehow dies, be it a suspicious accident or some alliance fanatics
>Alliance is completely buttmad about a formal pillar of the Alliance becoming a member of the horde and declares all out war

>>50266788

cont.

>some of the forsaken actually welcome this and become a very light shade of grey, trying to get on with their unlives
>some of them are even zealous enough to become paladins
>an order of unfaltering knights, their will and faith strong enough to bear the unending agony of wielding the light, completely dedicated to finding a cure for undeath
>this prevents the holy cow bullshit
>forsaken stay deeply fractional, some of them really like not hanging out in cellars anymore, some of them actually want to be mustache twirling evil
>but Sylvanas' plan succeeds, they put away their differences to unite aganist invading humans and legion worshipping Varimathrasite forsaken
>the valkyr have much less troubles resurrecting people to this faction, even some fallen heroes of the alliance may return
>they see their invasion and turning of Gilneas and Stromgarde as self defense now and enlarging their "New Alliance"
>Sylvanas is buttering up the blood elves and Dalaran greatly, she is the one who negotiates the horde stay there in WotLK
>maybe even some mind controlled minor factions join in
>orcs are starting worry if Sylvanas is planning to succeed both the horde and the alliance with her new organization, simply outgrowing the "core horde"
>she still angsts her monster existence and sends agents to retrieve draenei relics used in soul transfering from Auchindoun, titan shaping equipment, parts of tempest keep and such planning something big

There, I fixed your waifu

>>50266621
>Night elves' help
>When Jaina's father was still alive
t. High King of the Alliance

>Deathwing should've destroyed Stormwind but he just left after looking cool for the trailer

>Varian couldn't even convince the Stormwind nobles to pay Vancleef for rebuilding the city, but can tell them to pay for all these wars

>Dwarves not being the most powerful mortal race on Azeroth

>Dalaran was reduced to rubble but gets rebuilt and installed jetpacks in a few years because fuck you

Daily reminder that Humans, just like Orcs, should be gased

>>50266896
I've never particularly liked Sylvanas.

Tyrande is my waifu.

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>>50267110
I disagree but I won't be a dragondick about it

>>50267145
She's a bitch, but she's a consistent bitch, at least.

>>50267641
Malfurion Bearcock thoooo

>>50266896
brainwashing her way to world domination, way better.

Like her playing politics is good but you're making her too powerful there.

>>50268511
>Malfurion BearcUck

FTFY famalamadingdong.

Hamuul and Vol'jin have been spitroasting that purple puss since after Hyjal.

>>50268580

Tried to be as faithful to the original as possible, down to the blizzards pet thing. I wouldnt even mind her being an evil bitch, just dont paint her and the forsaken as misundertstood little dindus opressed by evil racis' paladins when they are essentially scourge-lite at this point invading kingdoms, deploying plague, raising undead and killing the ones unwilling to join.

>>50269206
Why do they like her so much is the thing I can't work out? She was a mirror for Arthas, and a way to show how much he had changed.

And now she's been turned into this amazing warlord that will save the world with her morally ambiguous decisions and retardedness including such hits as "I'll employ this deceiver demon as my second in command" and "I'll piss off the gods of a race of titan war machines."

>>50269283

Don't forget the time when she decided to antagonize the blood elves and treat them like shit when they tried to treat her as a ranger-general.

>>50269283
Because fans like that undead puss and edgy gas the unworthy nazi aesthetic.

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How would you fix the Dragonflights, /wclore/?

>>50270013

Having them actually do their job and defend the world from old gods, orcish invasion, demonic incursions, the scourge and other shit. At the very least they should have done something other titanic guardians getting bodied at Ulduar, Thorim sulking for thousands of years. Kalec, Korialstrasz and Chromie did like 90% of fixing shit while hundreds of dragons were just jerking off somewhere. Even now this godlike race of immortal building sized lizards needs the help of mortal sellswords to get anything done.

They are depowered anyway now and in the process of getting killed off so fuck them

>>50270013
>Step 1: Alexstrasza is undeniably queen and mother of all dragonflights, thus making her the oldest living sentient creature in all of Azeroth apart from Titanforged descendants
>Step 2: Ysera is actually elune.
>Step 3: Black Dragonflight hasn't collectively gone batshit insane but know that their patron aspect fucked up so they have to go into hiding and be extra scheming to survive, but will not harbour an inherent hatred towards mortals
>Step 4: Remove Bronze Dragonflight's time powers, give them some other shit instead or remove them altogether.

>>50269963
But again what's so interesting about a dried up husk of a woman who most likely still jills herself tot he thought of Arthas nailing her over the frozen throne?

There are dozens of other woman to fap to, shit most of them have tusks and hooves and all sorts of shit to fuel a million deviant fantasies.

and as for the whole nazi thing, well Garrosh had the whole turning a nation into an industrial powerhouse and invading places, yet they hate him.

>>50270128
>Ysera is actually Elune

Care to elaborate?

>>50264536
> We purposefully trained them wrong, as a j- WHAT THE FUCK

>>50270013
delete the bronze dragon flight

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>>50270259
>>50270128
>2 for deleting Bronze

Is this just an issue with time travel, or something more?

>>50270289
Murozond was too good for this world.

>>50270142
But they don't have gasmasks and literal fields using humans as fertiliser.

>>50270013
Don't put a race of super ancient creatures that are meant to guard the planet in a game where every problem is solved by a raid group and if you do, don't have them show up that much unless they're saving the world by themselves. But as seen with Dragon Soul, that doesn't work. The Jedi effect from the prequels was and always will be in full effect when dealing with the more mythological aspects of WoW lore, and so it will always be shit in WoW. End of story.

>>50270289
their time travel powers are implemented in a nonsensical way and only exist so that Blizzard can make up plot devices and say "the Bronze dragons did it lmao"

delete the Bronze and replace the Caverns of Time with wizards from Dalaran discovering a "pocket of irregular time energy" or some bullshit

>>50270013
>Blue
Senegos is restored to full health thanks to Well of Eternity shenanigans, and starts to rebuild the whole flight as a worldwide Magic Police; not Malygos-style "purge all magic users", just watching out for and trying to prevent abuse of Magic that would lead to Azeroth being endangered. Kalecgos dumps Jaina for Stellagosa.

>Black
Wrathion and Ebonhorn/Ebyssian meet, and set out to discover more Titan relics that would help with purifying any remaining Black Dragon eggs around the world to rebuild the Black Dragonflight, with each one working as a counterweight to the other: Ebonhorn's wisdom and patience reining in Wrathion's impulsiveness, Wrathion's knowledge of the world outside the Broken Isles compensating for the ages Ebyssian spent bound to the land of his birth guiding the Highmountain tribes, and so forth. Before setting out on this journey, they visit Deepholm and Therazane, escorted by some Earthen Ring shamans, and try to make amends for Neltharion/Deathwing's actions.

>Red
Since they seem to be the most stable of the Dragonflights, they'd act as ambassadors of Dragonkind, with Alextrasza as their leader and potential Queen of all dragons.

>Bronze
Immensely depowered by the effort to take down Deathwing. They've become quite reclusive, and most of them now roam the Timeless Isle, looking for Epoch Stones to study and understand how a Literally Who like Kairozdormu managed to rip a whole to another whole universe/an alternate timeline. Nozdormu tries to fight against destiny and bring his Flight back to its former glory, ultimately driving him mad and leading to the creation of the Infinite Dragonflight.

>Green
Most of the flight retreats to the Emerald Dream to try and completely remove any remains of Nightmare taint. The ones that remain on Azeroth are reclusive, working closely with the Cenarion Circle and being (rightfully) immensely distrustful of Warlocks and Shadow Priests.

>>50270372
>let's reinstate the broken crew of lore beings that Blizzard nonsensically wrote out of the lore for being functionally useless at their jobs

They need to just stay unused or be randomers in questlines, not a force in the world on any level. Not while raid groups solve all the world's problems.

>>50270178
Ysera protects and fosters Nelves from behind the scenes, the Nelves start to believe in the Moon Goddess and Ysera plays along because she loves to play with her adopted children so much.

Eventually, the Priestcaste realises that that green dragon lady is a little too present in their history and some suspect that their deity is a green lizard in disguise.
Cue forward to Ysera dying and ascending to the night skies. The moment when she mournfully wants to confess with her last breath, but all of her present children nod in understanding. Those that did not know see the connection now and mourn even harder while Tyrande musters all her willpower to honour her goddess' death with grace and restraint.

Basically I want Dragons to be actually involved with the mortals in some form as opposed to being those distant and unrelatable guardians of the planet. Making them more involved automatically gives them much more initiative to partake in the world, which would already clear up >>50270093 's point.

>>50270289
To be even more honest I really think Malygos and Nozdormu both can go fuck themselves.

Alex, Neltharion and Ysera all are somehow tied to the planet's physical essence in some form, which makes them much more viable aspects in my opinion. Malygos is admittedly a grey area because he handles sorcery on Azeroth and it would make sense judging with the Well of Eternity, but Nozdormu has basically been elevated to a godlike being completely removed from Azeroth, so why does he hold a position of Guardian to that specific planet?

He manages all the timelines ever, not only on Azeroth, which makes him just so disconnected from the planet he's supposed to maintain.

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>>50263259
Waifu Draenei and Blood elves?! Count me in.

>>50270013
Nerf the cleanup crew.

>>50266231
She had the same personality as Arthas with a level of vanity that even other elves though was too much.

Small wonder everyone ships them together.

>>50271209
Well she was always meant to be all his flaws reflected at him. the arrogance and petulance most prominently, intended or not, its interesting that the traits that make him raise her are the same ones that led to him embracing becoming the Lich King.

Still KT knew what was up so blizzard probably did intend it. And that seems so much more complex and interesting than what WOW has to offer these days.

>>50270372

> Kalecgos dumps Jaina for Stellagosa.


Horde Dindu Nuffin Nigger found. MMO Champion ->.

>>50270372
>Kalecgos dumps Jaina for Stellagosa

Why would you put her through any more torment?

>>50263065
It's not just Garrosh nuking her city. She did go to Thrall to ask him for his help, to at least talk Garrosh down or get the other Horde leaders to do something. After thinking over everything Jaina did for him and his Horde, Thrall said "nah, fuck that, I'mma gonna Shaman, who gives a fuck if Garrosh is using enslaved elementals".

>>50267145
I always forget that that pic is only the one, and every time I try to look up more of it.

Damn I need some help.

>>50272973
If you mean "That pic is the only one", then... it ain't? Unless you don't count the Sylvanas picture.

>>50273087
Oh I now about the Sylvanas one, I meant I always thinks it's an actual title page for something.

>>50270593
Except that's wrong.

Elune's either a manifestation of Azeroth herself or, if Scrolls of Lore is to be believed, a fucking Naaru.

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>>50273292
>Velen was right all along

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>>50273309
>>50273292
Khadgar says in a quest that Elune is very likely something above the Naaru, and may have even had a hand in creating them.

Velen can get right the fuck out of Tyrande's tree.

>>50273432
Could be a Prime Naaru like Xe'ra was or whatever.

>>50273449
Her 'Tear' was used to reactivate the core of one.

She's much better than that.

>>50273452
Fair enough. We'll likely find out in Chronicles Vol 2, as that's covering Naaru stuff.

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>>50273432
>>50273449
>>50273452
>>50273476
This is the clearest indication we have so far of what Elune relates to on a cosmological scale. Unless they arbitrarily say Khadgar was just wrong, Elune is at least as old as the creation of the Material Plane and made the Naaru.

>>50266621
>and WoD had shown us the orcs were bad apples to start with even without the demonic bloodlust.
Yeah, try to be completely peaceful people in a Death World that Draenor is, I dare you. And even then, only few of the Clans were complete warmongers (Warsong, Burning Blade, and Shattered Hand mainly, Blackrock a bit less, and all 4 of those solely against Ogres), while most of the Clans were more careful (Frostwolves were simply living with their land, Thunderlords practiced Gronn and even Earth Giants hunting which is OK, Laughing Skull kept to themselves, Bleeding Hollow lived in deadly jungle and kept to themselves, and Shadowmoon were shamans and stargazers) also added and were forced to join Iron Horde under threat of genocide by those that already allied with Grommash (like it happened with Shadowmoon).
And then there was Twilight Hammer, which changed into Doom Cult after Cho'Gall took over and changed Clan's name.

>>50270372
>Wrathion and Ebonhorn/Ebyssian meet, and set out to discover more Titan relics that would help with purifying any remaining Black Dragon eggs around the world to rebuild the Black Dragonflight, with each one working as a counterweight to the other:
Add them going to Outland to purify based Sabellian and his little dragons (as all older ones returned to Azeroth during Cataclysm), thus starting Black Triumvirate, with Sabellian acting as the man of strategy who should know the most about their ancient duties, as he should have been alive even before Neltharion got CORRUPTED.COM

>>50271209
>She had the same personality as Arthas
Thanks for reminding me that Kel'thuzad did said that to Arthas.
I miss KT.

>>50262709
shaman player here, i'm down for going 3rd faction and getting me a twilight dragon to ride on since the fuckers now have their own dragonflight.

>>50274083
>>50273452
>>50273449
>>50273432

With the whole Light/Void dichotomy, my main guess is that Elune is a "Light Lord", as a counterpart to the Void Lords.

>>50274558
>Yeah, try to be completely peaceful people in a Death World that Draenor is, I dare you.

Actually, anthropologists made an interesting discovery. Short version is, they looked at two tribes, one of which are basically the most pacifistic timid nice people in the world, and the other the most brutal violent fuckers who have all the bloody "hang yourself from spikes to prove your a man" type rituals.

Now, what kind of environment would you expect each of those to be in? Surprise! The peaceful tribe lived in the dangerous deadly place, and the violent tribe lived in the peaceful one.

How does that work? Because your attitude to other humans is based on the environment you have to deal with. In a dangerous environment, all the big threats and problems are out there in the world, the poison plants and the deadly animals and all that shit. Other humans may be able to hurt you, but they're waaaay down the list of what you're scared of. You need other humans to help you survive! So, you get a bunch of people who are really nice to each other.

Meanwhile, in an environment with no external threats, other humans shoot to the top of the list of what can hurt you. They're the ones you've got to keep an eye on, the things you're afraid of, the things you have to intimidate into not even thinking about trying any shit with you. So, you get a bunch of people who are really warlike, and into scary violent posturing and threatening.

Ain't that interesting?

>>50275473
Also my current theory, which makes it a bit extra neat that she's associated with the night (and more specifically light sources that appear AT night) rather than just generic light/day

>>50275515
>>50274558
These line up nicely actually, the peaceful tribes (frostwolf, Thunderlords, Laughing Skull) lived in the deadliest places, while the Warsong, Burning Blade and Shattered Hand all saw their largest threats come from other sapient species

>>50275641
>>50275473

A theory I like is that Elune/Mu'sha and An'she, as "The Earthmother's Eyes", are Azeroth's Watchers. Then, with Azeroth being stupidly powerful by Titan standards, her watchers would also be stupidly powerful by Watcher standards.

We don't know how exactly Watchers are made, after all. As far I can gather, the basic process for all Titan creations is "infuse living energy/spirit into rock/metal, shape rock/metal into humanoid figure and wake it up". Perhaps orbiting around a sleeping Titan, the giant rock that is a moon can absorb energy from them and become a sleeping Watcher.

Doesn't really work with the Xe'ra thing, though. Of course, it's possible Khadgar is wrong, that Xe'ra is a dreadlord and the elune's tear was just said dreadlord going "yeah that's excuse enough for them to believe when I start talking to them".

Personally, I'd have preferred they did the non-asspull thing, and just had an alternate version of that naaru on draenor that we take a trip back to to unlock it. Go forbid they do something that could look halfway clever if you squint at it in the dark, though.

>>50262680
All the horde babies hate her for being an Alliance character that actually holds the horde responsible for it's actions. Allowing anything in the game to point out just how bad the horde is won't be allowed by Metzen or Kosak.

The whorde playerbase has been bitching for Jaina to be giving a loot table since Pandaland. You can damned well bet they'll get what they want.

>>50273292
I never claimed it as canon. Anon asked how to fix dragonflights and I replied how I would do it.

Read the thread.

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>>50266603

>>50275754
As a Horde player, I just want the old Jaina back

Also Thrall's Horde back, and Cairne back, and pre-Cata Sylvanas back, and jerkface Varian back, and Garrosh to have died at Wrathgate instead of Saurfang jr

>>50275725
Blackrock are more similar to Bleeding Hollow, in being used to constant fighting external threats, but with high spirituality (elements for volcano-living Blackrock, and ritual of seeing their deaths while living in the jungle for Bleeding Hollow), which is lacking in Warsong (constantly at war with Gorian Empire) and Shattered Hand (former gladiator slaves of Gorian Empire) Clans, due to clearly smaller amount of shamans, and more bloody feud against organized non-Gronn aligned Ogres.

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>>50275515
>>50275725
>>50275812
Adding to that, the most peaceful Clan is Shadowmoon, which lives far from Ogres, their only sapient neighbours are Draenei, the area seems to be in perpetual night, which may or may not be related to Dark Star (or just because Blizzard was too lazy for day/night cycle for WoD, but I wasn't playing WoW since ages, so I don't know), and Ancestral Spirits in there are more prevalent (which is definitely due to Dark Star being relatively close to surface, but not close enough to use them to regen, unlike the one in Oshu'gun), which could aid in their shamanistic practices.

I do wonder where Twilight's Hammer was originally from. Maybe from Farahlon, like Laughing Skull was supposed to be from, until Blizzard decided to not include the zone they promised, because "it wouldn't fit in the theme of expansion".

>tfw Gul'dan came from Farahlon, and after he taught Cho'Gall, he sent him there to take over his original Clan and make them demon and void slaves

What about Bonechewers though? Because they were brutal even by Warsong, Shattered Hand, and Burning Blade standards.

Also, back in the day there also used to be Lightning's Blade Clan, whose rite of passage was standing on a high place with a weapon in hand and waiting for a lightning to struck it. You survived, you passed the rites.

>>50271209

> She had the same personality

But Arthas had better quips. And he didn't rebel against the Scourge when he could have.

>>50276142
I think he'd given up and gone full nilhist by the time he picked up Frostmourne. He was going to kill mal'gannis and then disappear and die. Instead he got LICHED and ended up convincing himself that it was what he'd always wanted.

The whole thing with Sylvanis is him trying to punish the person he used to be. Which is why he doesn't deny KT saying they're similar personality wise.

He wanted to be Lothar, but he survived his Doomhammer, and after that he only really had one direction he could go in. Which if you squint explians his actions in Wrath.

>>50276263

I talked about TFT. Where Ner'zhul lost his grip on the Scourge in Lordaeron and the Forsaken broke off.

>>50275726
>Xe'ra is a dreadlord
No, Xe'ra is Kil'Jaeden.
>alternate version of that naaru on draenor that we take a trip back to to unlock it
There are also a whole bunch of naaru just chilling in Outland not doing any fucking good.
Why couldn't we take it to them?

>>50275868
>What about Bonechewers though? Because they were brutal even by Warsong, Shattered Hand, and Burning Blade standards.
Bonechewers are from Tanaan/Hellfire Peninsula. In WoD they were absorbed into the Bleeding Hollow, although we don't know if that's a plot thing or a Kosak-is-lazy thing

>>50276485
Never attribute to intentional plot decisions that which could be attributed to Kosak being shit at his job

>>50276485
The bonechewers of wod joined the shadow council mate. And in the original game they dwelled in the proto zangarmarsh

>>50268650
Plz do not lewd the purple flavor elf

>>50276526
>The bonechewers of wod joined the shadow council mate
what? There are no Bonechewers at all in WoD except for Gurtogg Bloodboil, who's part of the Bleeding Hollow

>>50276564
Tagar Spinebreaker shows up as a Shadow Council leader in Talador.

>>50276464

>Xe'ra is Kil'jaeden

Stop trying to salvage bad writing. Illidan is a Dindu now.

>>50276593
>t. Gul'dan

>>50276564
I don't think it was ever stated that it was ever stated that Gurtogg was from Bonechewers Clan in TBC.

>>50264740
The entire mop expansion was about how the pandas think they're super enlightened but really they're just a bunch of fat lazy alcoholic bear niggers who didn't learn anything from Shaohao

>>50276861

They had to get the Chinese to play their game somehow.

>>50275754
>Alinskyite lying and backstabbing to create conflict out of nothing is "holding them responsible for their actions"
itt: things that make you go "hmm"

>>50276810
you're correct, but you can guess he is from context clues. He's surrounded by Bonechewer orcs, his hand isn't mutilated to indicate he belongs to the Shattered Hand, and he's not a caster so he most likely isn't a Shadowmoon

>>50277334
yeah.
Blizzard is full sinoboo now.
>>50277793
>we dindu nuffin the faction
>they end up doing nothing when they need to do something
>trust.

>>50278215
Bleeding Hollow Clan was present in Hellfire Penninsula too, while you don't see them in Black Temple (and neither you can see Shattered Hand there), they are in Hellfire Citadel.
Bonechewers likely followed biggest guy, as you can kill Tagar Spinebreaker (for absolutely nothing), and they established base in Terokkar Forest.

Looking back, I'm figuring that the broad direction for WoW was supposed to have been this:

Vanilla>Lich King>Outland>Legion

Vanilla ends with you fighting the Scourge and from a storytelling view it's jarring to just jump into Outland after Vanilla. TBC has you take the fight to the Legion's supporters (see Kael'thas).

Cataclysm to WoD were faction faggotry and RTS nostalgia. They come off as shoehorned.

>>50278701
The last levelling zone in Vanilla was the Blasted Lands, fighting nothing but demons, technically Silithus was also there, but it was an empty wasteland with basically no quests.

Yes, I get that you're referncing the Naxx raid, not the last bit of levelling, but still, assuming you weren't a raider in Vanilla, the flow from Vanilla to Outland feels much more natural than it would going from Vanilla to Northrend

>>50278701

Faction faggotry could have worked if written well. I really liked the vanilla standoff. Just empires rebuilding, seeking allies, establishing outposts and hiring sellswords and adventurers to do their bidding. An entire game mechanic could have been based around this. You either decide you want to be neutral after making friends with so many neutral factions and learn how the work together with the other superpower, eventually learning their language and play in special cross-faction raids and zones. Or you decide to be 50 screeching bald eagles patriotic, become your factions champion and have a whole PvP campaign about finding and uprooting any enemy influence and conquering their shit. This path should get a lot of unique PvP content and world PvP zones that actually matter and give good rewards, not pats on your head and levelling blues.

I really wanted to be both but not at the same time. A wise old diplomatic paladin, establishing ties with the orcs, getting them respect his own martial pride and honor code and eventually unlikely allies broing up to kill some demons and shit. Other times(usually after levelling in STV) I wanted to be a Lion of Stormwind, decked out in gold and blue gear with lion insignias everywhere, orc brains caked on my warhammer bringing just and righteous wrath to the enemies of humankind cleaving and smiting evil.

And then we got.... nothing.

>>50278701
I don't think they had any real plan in mind during Vanilla, it was just a wild wild west. They just knocked the game together, threw it out into the wild and did what they thought would work and was fun. That's why we got the pure chaos of PvP System, Battlegrounds, certain zones staying complete wastelands and the "story" and raids and dungeons we got. Somebody just had an idea, got it approved, gathered a team and did it.
That's what made Vanilla special, for better AND worse. It was less about ginormous, huge. planned out storylines and more a hodgepodge of ideas. Somebody had the idea for the missing diplomat story, got halfway through it and never had the opportunity or will to finish it, somebody had the idea with the Onyxia story and in it went.
It's also why they will never again capture that feeling. The production of the games has grown too large, too organized and too well oiled for that.

>>50279351
But just saying "here's a world, go nuts" could totally work

Hell, it almost did in Pandaland before a unified plot reared its ugly head and fucked everything

Wow! I love all the tabletop discussion in this thread! Truly this discussion is at home on /tg/ and not somewhere like /vg/.

Keep up the good work, lads! Subscribed!

>>50263393
>Energon cubes

>>50279367
Thing is, that's not what they think the main audience wants and that may or may not be true. They think the audience wants to be the Biggest Damn Heroes around, that rub shoulders with Amazingly Great Heroes. Most people only know the name Doomhammer from Ogrimmar, they just want to meet a great hero or something. The guy being backstabbing, pillaging asshole doesn't match up with people's perceptions, so those aspects get swept under the rug and we end up with the stories we get.

Tell me how the Demon Blood twist didn't just screw up Warcraft's Lore but also Starcraft's from Metzen and Co. doing it again.

>Take a villain faction
>Say they good boiz who dindu nuffin who got turned into invaders from demon blood

WC3 started the Dinduism we keep seeing.

>>50280024
There's a fanfiction out there where thrall is planning to have the horde get wiped out because he decides that there is nothing redeemable about them. Makes me laugh that a parody fanfiction was proven right in WOD. His noble savagear were always a product of their imagination.

>>50279417
Sarcasm will get you nowhere, and with how little actual gameplay is being discussed /vg/ would have already banned this thread.

It has nowhere else to go.

>>50280024
WC3 delivered the opportunity, but it wasn't meant to to excuse the Orc's behaviour, just to give them a chance at redemption.

>>50280485
If Blizzard hadn't gone Muh Faction War, Muh WC2 after WotLK, there would have been an actually good redemption story in all of this, with Thrall coming back out of retirement, reclaiming his title as warchief through Trial by Combat, shitstomping the Mag'har and Warsong Shitters and declaring a new changed Horde. The tone of a Post Garrosh Horde could have been really interesting, with Thrall enforcing his ideas through force and punishment, Garrosh-Followers planning a Coup, Forsaken being only barely and grudgingly accepted by the Warchief anymore because Thrall can't just kick them out at this point and Warlocks fleeing Kalimdor in droves and, because Thrall outlawed them just to drive the point home that this is not the fucking Old Horde anymore and we don't fucking go around and bomb, pillage and rape civillians.

The Mak'gora would have been the perfect turning point for Thrall and so many stories and quests could have come from this. Garrosh-followers claiming Thrall cheated, Goblins smuggling Warlocks across the land, Tauren being happy that the ideas of the new Horde are actually enforced, yet somewhat discontent with the harsh punishments Thrall is dishing out at any Orcs that step out of line,...

>>50280485
That fanfiction sounds amazing. Also, why do I hate Anduin Wrynn so much?

>>50280737
>It has nowhere else to go.

Then it shouldn't be made in the first place.

>>50280024
Metzen did what every GM or hobby novelist eventually does: He tried to give his characters depth beyond a simple hero-villain relationship.

Yeah, it introduced a messy concept of sorta-but-not-really mindcontrol that we as a community can now get all up in arms about because it's contradictory and potentially absolves the orcs of all fault.

However by the time Rise of the Horde came out and shaped the "sorta" canon, it was clear the orcs didn't just swallow the juice then suddenly became polar opposites. They were goaded into it by demagoguery that told them that they needed it against an obscure enemy, which fueled into their martial culture. It was a scheme that didn't just involve Orcs being angry and hyped on juice, but also getting them hooked on fel magic that destroys their home and thus creates their need for a new world to migrate and settle in order to survive, which created a downward spiral for more orcs to get hooked on juice, which made them irrationally angry and thus more susceptible to suggestive themes that they needed to conquer this new world and so on.

Technically speaking, even the old Horde had a viable reason that wasn't just cartoon villainy before Demon Blood was introduced: Draenor was shit, there was a place where life was easier, cue Gul'Dan's shadow council exploited that need to migrate for their own gain and, in order for it to remain stable, installed a warchief as official political figurehead.

The Legion mobilised the Horde with the Horde thinking they were saving themselves, but the goal of simple migration was eventually lost in the sheer war effort to secure this potential new homeland.

So Metzen did a poor job of introducing a "deception" scheme, but he enabled what ultimately counts and that is showing that there's always a complex series of events that lead to a huge group of people to mobilise for war.

The film did an even better job at this and threw the Demon Blood out, altogether, keeping only the fel.

>>50281198

Nah, it has more to do with the shitty GM mistake of constantly trying to raise the stakes untill all the PCs are generals of their faction and leaders of their class yet they are still running around doing manual labor and collecting 15 wolf tails and shit.

Their worldbuilding is just rife with inconsistent writing and constantly flipflopping characters bending completely over to accomodate the new "epic" plotlane before snapping back to status quo. Siege of Orgrimmar is a monumental example of this. Something that should have been a groundbreaking change in faction dynamics and was built up over several expansion backs essentially amounted to nothing. We didnt even get to kill Garrosh and no one else was hold responsible.

>>50281102
Called Boliver's folly from memory, I wouldn't say it's amazing, but it made me chuckle a few times. it shits on the Ebon Blade pretty hard too from memory.

>>50281296
Anon, killing Garrosh was not allowed simply because we needed an excuse for the next expansion AND we needed to add another star to Thrall's portfolio. You want to ally with your faction's big hero and take down Garrosh one and for all? Fuck you, here is a cinematic with Thrall in it.

Metzen leaving Blizzard could potentially be the best thing to happen to Warcraft. I wish him all the best and hope he enjoys his family life, and I wish we never have to deal with any of his pet characters again.

>>50281982

I would be able to put up with green metzen killing garrosh, maybe with a bit of monologue after, realizing his mistakes and how his brotherly love of Grom clouded his judgement and enabled his retarded shit too long(wishful thinking I know) but putting him on fucking TRIAL instead of unceremonously beheading him? The entire Warcrimes book reads like its a big 4chan shitpost. I vividly recall walking around in my room in anger reading it. I pirated that shit and still felt ripped off.

>>50282103
Did you feel ripped off when those four fucking Pandaren Celestial spirit things basically said "We wouldn't have let you kill him anyway, even if you decided on it"?

>>50282289
Raid to kill Celestials when?

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>>50282289

>we cant kill him cause he cant grow as a person if he is ded :)))))))

YEAH WISDOM SPIRIT DUDES LIKE THE OSSUM GROWTH WE SEEN FROM HIM IN WOD

There will never be a better line in a Warcraft game than
>A shallow and tragic victory. We are weaker as a whole from the losses suffered today. Who but the Lich King could benefit from such foolishness? Great warriors have lost their lives, and for what? The true threat looms ahead. The Lich King awaits us all in death.

How does this make you feel, knowing that the franchise you love and grew up on has been turned to increasingly shitty capeshit?

>>50282355
But that line was in the expansion that was becoming increasingly shitty capeshit?

>>50279417
You are completely right. The janitors should close all Warcraft discussion threads, and we should go back to discussing which Primarch makes the best grilled cheese.

>>50281296
>PCs are generals of their faction and leaders of their class yet they are still running around doing manual labor and collecting 15 wolf tails and shit.

This is basically everything I hate about current WoW in a nutshell. Is it just me, or did the game and world feel so much better when you were just another adventurer rather than the Best Paladin in the World Wielding the Best Weapon in the World?

>>50281982
Metzen's passing is a double-edged sword. Yes, Green Jesus is probably going to spend a lot of time in the background and White Thrall is Dead For Reals™, but we are also now stuck with fucks like Ion Hazzikostas and Dave Kosak. These are the people in charge of steering the ship now, and the Old Guard are gone. No Kern, no Tigole, no Furor, no Metzen, no Pardo. Just "You Think You Do, But You Don't" and "All Night Elves Should Die."

>>50282478
>All Night Elven Males Should Die
>All Night Elven Women Should Be Raped Into Submission

I see no problem here.

>>50281296
Your post has nothing to do with Orcish Dinduism, but is just another complaint about the general lack of quality in modern WoW.

>>50281982
Metzen leaving Blizzard will have no impact whatsoever. The status quo shit will just continue, because even before his departure Chris only nodded off stuff that was placed in front of him. I doubt he even paid attention the way a GM would to his own setting's consistency, he was just an official figurehead whose daily activity was to wave through whatever material was placed in front of him.

Let's not fool ourselves: Thrall is Metzen's self-insert, but just as much is Thrall one of those characters who're absolutely adored and deified by the fans. Him taking so much spotlight is most definitely not only part of the authors' ego stroking but also blatantly cashing in on a fanfavourite for appeal.

>>50282440
WotLK had its faults -- fuck you, Azjol'Nerub -- but I'd definitely say it was the last expansion that was ultimately both good and fun. The cracks were starting to show, maybe, but you could still just sit back and enjoy the ride -- plus, that was probably, at least on Shadow Council, the golden age of RP. It's all downhill from Wrath, and even that quote pretty handily sums up what came next.

>A shallow and tragic expansion. We are weaker as a whole from the losses suffered today. Who but Activision could benefit from such foolishness? Great designers have lost their path, and for what? The true threat looms ahead. Micro-transactions await us all in the end.

>>50282538

>It's all downhill from Wrath

>Not The Burning Crusade, which turned Kael'thas and Illidan into memes before killing them, shoehorned the Blood Elves into the Horde, defanged the Blood Elve and introduced Garrosh and Varian

>>50282538
>>50282810

I actually wonder if it wasn't the death of the LK, and thus the loss of the Big Bad who had been hanging over everyone's head since the beginning. Even Illidan's crowd were creations of Arthas' albeit by virtue of the fact that he worked both them over so badly he drove them mad, with the exception of Vanjesh.

From Cata onwards, there just isn't any real connection to the bad guys. Deathwing came out of nowhere, and Garrosh was always ham fisted in terms of how the writers treated him which led to a litany of issues.

Its lost its magic because the characters from WC3 are gone, either dead or replaced with meme versions of themselves. And we're looking for something that just isn't there.

>>50282810
Varian was only introduced in Wrath, as was the Garrosh we know and hate (he was in TBC, but there he was just moping about his father being a fuckup and needed the PCs and Trall to cheer him up by showing him that in the end Grom freed the orcs from the blood curse).

Wrath and TBC are still considered mostly OK even with some dumb bits (I personally like TBC, but mostly because it had a cool aesthetic; lore-wise it's pretty unremarkable and the way they handled Team Illidan by turning them into raidbosses that barely were involved in the story until the playrs kick their door in and stab them for epix was dumb). Wrath only really had the crappy filler tournament raid (which only existed because they moved much of the dev team on Project Titan and had to scrape something together with little effort to tide things over untill ICC was done) and unsatisfying ending, and otherwise was not particularly bad. It also had the best raid in WoW (Ulduar).

>>50282937
Varian was technically introduced at the very end of TBC, though I guess you can count that as Wrath if you want to count the pre-expansion event as being part of Wrath.

>>50282810

>Not The Burning Crusade, which turned Kael'thas and Illidan into memes before killing them,

Their storylines were okay. I really respected their decision to kill of really important named characters instead of pulling a Dr. Claw on them. Plus there was just not much space for growth for a crack addict and the dindu boy.

>shoehorned the Blood Elves into the Horde
>defanged the Blood Elve

Their storyline was great and had an arc, going from teetering on the edge of becoming demonic slaves into getting redeemed by Velen.

Also, despite memes, Garrosh really did nothing wrong in BC. Too bad they forgot about Deadeye and Saurfang jr completely until the latter just got rekt in WotLK.

>>50282810
>Varian didn't exist in BC
>forgetting the shitfit over the draenei retcon

BC was a sum-total of great. You are basically alone in shitting on what is generally regarded as the most solid expansion of WoW.

>>50283031

> Their storyline was great and had an arc, going from teetering on the edge of becoming demonic slaves into getting redeemed by Velen.

>stick them in the Horde to get more players for it
>have them lose what sets them aparf (their mana hunver and demoneyness)

>>50283063

That shitfit was tumblr tier over basically fucking nothing. A single line of WC3 manual was retconned. Even the retcon was retconned away since. Plus people just ate up a gorillion bigger and more impactful retcons anyway.

>>50283063

->MMO Champion
->Blizzard Forum

>>50283063
>>forgetting the shitfit over the draenei retcon

Yeah, but we got blue spacegoat whores now, so who cares?

>>50283063
Burning Crusade was, in my opinion, easily the worst expansion in terms of story (but the best in terms of art direction, arguably), due to the complete waste of the Illidari.

MoP is my favorite, overall, since the bulk of it played to WoW's strengths: exploring a new world without needing to care about continuity.

>>50283202
>One year later
I'm sure we'll get new content one of these days, guys. Just a, uh... a little drought, that's all.

>>50283183

The Draenei are just blue and better Humans anyway. Not like they really figured out a place for them in the Alliance when you consider they did jack in WotLK (of course that wasn't helped by how they ignored Ner'zhul).

>>50283130
>>50283183
I'm mostly just still a little salty we never got playable Broken with some gimmicky glide ability. The shitfit itself was definitely tumblr-tier, but I do have to wonder if accepting hunch-backed demon ninjas turning into blue Slavic space crusaders worshipping wind chimes as well as turning the Eredar from one of the prime evils into yet another dindu race set the stage for those bigger and more moronic retcons that came down the pipes after they'd seen that no-one really gave a shit.

>>50283268
Less "ignored", more "completely removed". They decided to have Arthas kill Ner'zhul's spirit in the Arthas book.

>>50283268

>The Draenei are just blue and better Humans anyway.

Wrong. Blizzard just has no idea how to write aliens so they just ignored them completely. Maybe its for the better, they remained mysterious and otherworldly instead of getting "developed" like the night elves

>>50283413
>>50283268
Don't forget that the Exodar is completely repaired and fully functional, hovering over the completely decontaminated Azuremist and Bloodmist Isles. Yet does jack-fucking-shit during Legion.

>>50283457

How could we have Sylvanas betray the Alliance otherwise and get the king of Stormwind killed otherwise? Use a fucking spaceship? Nah, dont be silly.

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>>50276593
It's sad how bad Kosak is.

>>50283130

->MMO Champion
->Blizzard Forum

>>50283271

In this topic, putting in more Dindus is okay if TBC does it.

>>50283363

Which was trash. Arthas never showed he had the ability or wish to challenge Ner'zhul's (who was able to keep his spirit intact after Kil'jaeden's butchery) rule in older Lore.

>>50283630
Arthas' book makes him ever more of a bitch, too.
>MUH POOOOOOONYYYY NOOOOOOOO

>>50283479
The Broken Shore was possible the shittiest thing I've ever seen in WoW. From the shitty banter between Sylvanas and Varian because the writers had just seen Cap and Black Widow in a movie, Tirion getting omgbbq's by some rando demon, Greymane talking about having fought the Legion before, etc. Claw my fucking eyes out.

>>50283512
Luckily, him and Ion are the big boys now. :^)

>>50283630
He was remarkably loyal really after Kel'Thurzard explained what the Lich KIng was and how they fitted into things.

If Arthas was so obsessed with ruling alone, why would he bother returning to Northrend in the first place, rather than duke it out with the Dreadlords and pick up the pieces once Ner'Zul fell and presumably, the Liches and co in Northrend would be coming to the last holdout the scourge controlled.

>>50275754

You need to be at least 18 years old to post on 4chan, anon.

>>50282355
>being chastised for something that's not your fault because Blizzard thought it would be deep
t. Xe'ra

>>50283777

Arthas was weak in spirit for how strong he was in body. The manual even calls him an unwitting rube.

Ner'zhul was an old man even before becoming the Lich King. He was able to keep himself intact spiritually after being hacked up and had so much power that he could control an undead empire.

They complemented each-other. The Human without a soul who was strong and young but weak in spirit serves the Orc without a body who was a powerhouse of spirit.

>>50284026
Yeah I mean I get that, which raises the whole issue of how someone weak in spirit was able to devour the essence of someone who was his superior in that regard.

>>50284021
>because no-one was griefing, queueing for BGs, or partaking in Wintergrasp in Wrath

>>50284021

Even despite a naaru was leading the charge on BT in person.

Its so insanely idiotic, I think they managed to somehow top WoD. Atleast WoD had the courtesy of being an alt-universe.

>>50284026

I always took it that Arthas wasnt completely lacking in "spirit" he just had JUST not enough and got caught in a slippery slope of horrible semi-justifiable decisions till he just went aaaah fuck it.

I still miss undead Arthas, he was god tier, all that sick bantz and not giving a shit.

>>50284189
More I think he was always more concerned with the practicalities of things than spiritual metaphysics. i.e He swung a hammer and the orc died, good. I'll kill the vampire demon, plague will stop. I'll pick up sword to kill demon, what's my soul done to help with this mess anyway. Whereas Uther was always balancing his actions against what he thought a paladin was supposed to represent.

It's a great fall from grace story line.

>>50284255

It was great becaus he WAS spiritual enough to look at the bigger picture, everything he did was for Lordaeron, he fully believed he will be a martyr for mankind for taking a cursed sword, that purging the infected is a harsh but necessary action. If things work out even just slightly differently he might have been the hero of mankind.

>>50284284
Well that was essentially what Stratholme boiled down wasn't it? the greater good vs committing an act that went against Uther's principles and how he thought the world should be. I've always wondered what Terenes would have said about it considering what they did to Alertic.

I think that was it though, call it an inferiority complex or whatever else, but I do agree with you that martyring himself was exactly what he was hoping for because it would absolve him from needing to try and live up to Uther and his father. It just so happened he found that freedom as Ner'zul's champion instead.

>>50284189
>I still miss undead Arthas, he was god tier, all that sick bantz and not giving a shit.
no matter how much people praise Wrath, I'll always hate it for turning Arthas from a respectable villain into Max Zorin

one of the things pre-WoW Warcraft did very well with it's villain writing was that the villains, no matter how evil, weren't insane narcissists that killed their underlings over anything and everything

>>50284189

WC3's Human Campaign shows Arthas sinking low under pressure. From getting indignant at Uther after winning Hearthglen to canning Uther at Stratholme to stranding his army since he wouldn't be able to avenge his wounded pride. And in the Undead Campaigns he's a tool of the Lich King who kills or leaves behind his family, Jaina, Uther, and his kingdom. Not even Lordaeron won out over playing Ner'zhul's tool.

He was a minion. A puppet. A tool. Not a man strong in spirit.

>>50285049

You kind of missed the point. He WAS strong in the spirit just not strong ENOUGH. The manual even states Nerzhul was looking for someone on the edge of light and shadow, not a decrepit, immoral man.

He was a good and righteous paladin, trying to pull off heroic paladin shit, saving the realm, battling evil no matter where they are, sacrificing everything for the cause and in the end little nuances meant everything he did was hollow and worthless despite acting like a textbook paladin, charging the BBEG without fear with the +5 sword.

>>50284255
I dindt play W3 to that point but Arthas did not fall from the trope "I am insanely corrupted now ay lmaao"...

At least Illdan was just a dick but I kind of hate when Blizzard uses Old-gods/lick-king/demons/whatever to make the characters become villains..

>>50284129
This... I would love to see Adal calling out Xera bullshit.

>>50286691
Xe'ra can't be anything but Kil'jaeden, nothing else makes sense. Don't roleplay my character for me, Blizzard.

>>50286746
It is hard to say... the writing is so bad that we will probably had to accept that she is exactly what she is.... a retarded plot element on a horrible plot.

Illidan is back btw, and this is not a good sign.

>>50286936
Not just back, he's arisen from the grave as the Champion of the Army of the Light. He'll fit right in with the Holy Dreadlord.

>>50286691

Nah. naaru are fucking useless. I remember when I was doing the dying crusader quest in wotlk. A'dal fucking TPs in to take the soul of 1 (one) crusader to the afterlife and disappears. I'd have loved to ask him "umm we have some other pressing undead related matters here in Icecrown, could you lend us a hand? no? just give me a buff or something? well fuck you then"

>>50286936

Will the PC's once again be "But one of many?"

If it turns out Xe'ra is just a Naru, i'm not sure i would even be bothered, its all turned into a bit of a joke anyway at this point. Will Illidan replace Malfurion as the faction leader too?

>>50287501
Malfurion will die and Tyrande will jump on Illidindu's dick before the body is even cold.

>>50287522
wow how progressive. Truly Illidan is the Mandela of our times.

>>50283630
Sure, but he never had to share headspace with the guy until the very end of TFT. Willing servitude is one thing, giving up actual control of your body is quite another.

>>50287570
I don't see Morgan freeman playing Illidindu.

>>50289003
No, it's more Robert Patterson's kind of gig I guess.

>>50283777
>If Arthas was so obsessed with ruling alone, why would he bother returning to Northrend in the first place
Because it was quite likely that destroying Lich King would screw the whole Scourge badly, and likely would risk Arthas' own existence.

>>50281198
That "demagoguery" included fooling as many shamans as possible (other shamans, Drek'thar included, confirmed information that Ner'zhul learned from spirit of "his wife", that Draenei are plotting against the Orcs), and after Draenei pushed back with using the Arcane magic, Elemental Spirits ceased to help them, and Ner'zhul backed off, Gul'dan easily could bring Warlocks idea to them, especially after he ensured that Orcs will be separated from ancestral spirits too, by closing Oshu'gun with some dark magics.


The bad thing to me is that devs clearly forgot that Kargath Bladefist wasn't just some badass orc Chieftain, but also relatively old, and the sole non-Warlock member of the Inner Circle of Shadow Council.

>>50285861

The manual called Arthas an unwitting rube and said Ner'zhul leaned towards dark souls for recruitment. And his actions from Hearthglen showed who he really was in the dark.

>>50288944

Even if so, Arthas shouldn't have the power to challenge him.

>>50289691

Arthas' quest in TFT isn't framed as trying to save himself from whatever happens if Ner'zhul falls. It's framed as trying to protect the Lich King from whatever is threatening him.

>>50290082
I guess that LK had still good sway over Arthas due to being directly connected with Frostmourne.

>>50290097
Even then though it only ever amounted to him saying "Arthas, I need you!" and Arthas went running.

I thought the reason why he heard those voices as he walked up the stairs was because that was his last chance to turn away from it, because even then, he was free of the LK's influence.

>>50290082
>Even if so, Arthas shouldn't have the power to challenge him.
Normally? No. But while Ner'zhul was a legit skilled shaman and warlock, all of his greatest accomplishments were done with the aid of extremely powerful artifacts. Once Arthas was wearing the Helm of Domination himself, and the battle was for control over his own body, things would probably be more even.

Plus, if it helps, it was practically a suckerpunch in the book.

>>50266788
>No forsaken undead dwarf, elf or gnome
Fuck you too, bluzzard

>>50290321
They should have just fused and called it a day.

>>50283130
What retcon was retconned? Eredar being demons but not really?

>>50290497

WC1-2 lore: Sargeras is some demon

WC3 lore: Sargeras was a titan corrupted by the insidious whispers of the eredar and nathrezim

BC lore: Sargeras was a titan corrupted by the insidious whispers of the nathrezim

current lore: Sargeras just chimped out, killed all the titans, shattered the prison planet of demons, formed the legion and seeks to destroy reality to get rid of the void lords

>>50290161

I took it as the LKs powers waned so much Arthas was himself again in the last moment, reliving all his failures and decided that no redemption is possible at this point.

I wonder what would have happened if he summons every last bit of willpower and decides to repent. Just throwing off Frostmourne off the citadel and walking away.

>>50282289
>>50282343

Looking back on that, I think they were more trying to break Garrosh's pride more than anything.

I feel they knew Garrosh was going into this believing that he would be executed as a blood sacrifice to appease the factions temporarily until something else would get them to jump at each other's throats again, and so felt no regret for his actions.

They felt that the only way to truly make him take pause and truly reflect on his actions was to show him mercy. Mercy that he would never give his opponents, Horde or Alliance. To shatter his pride, make him realize the sheer gravity of how much of a dick he became, and how stronger his opponents were by refraining from chopping his head off for simple bloodlust.

To make him humble. His sins would be forgiven, yes. But they would not be forgotten.

...Until a bronze dragon decided to fuck things up and set a chain of events that brought us to the Broken Isles.

So where did Slyvanas and Greymane fuck off to? I always thought they would be sitting in their little areas of Dalaran but they just leave the Broken Isles all together.
I know they're both salty after their fight but they just let the champion and Khadgar do the rest of the invasion.

>>50291183

That sounds really stupid. "be the bigger guy and forgive!" is kindergarten tier moralizing, especially when the genocide of entire species was on the table. Under no circumstances garrosh should have lived long enough to even see a trial. Who gives a shit about his pride and fee fees? Just tell him his hang is going to hang from the gate of Stormwind and the Hellscream bloodline ends with him, that should shatter his pride more than andiun being a little bitch.

>>50291388
But that would had offended panda feels and we can't have that, can we.

>>50291388
Well, it never would have been a problem if Varian hadn't blocked Thrall's hammer blow, so blame him.

>>50291035
>to get rid of the void lords
Which he learned about from insidious Nathrezim.

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>>50291035
>>50292011
Also, you got lore wrong.
>WC2
Sargeras and Medivh are so ridiculously powerful, that Kil'jeaden got scared by sensing them, with slight implication Sargeras is boss of Kil'jeaden
>WC3-WoW
Eredar were destroying populations, Nathrezim were turning them to shadow. Sargeras is disturbed. Sargeras reaches conclusion that complete evil is the right way of the world and release demons, creating Burning Legion
>TBC lore
Eredar used to be arcane swinging race, Sargeras corrupted them to demons.
No mention on how Sargeras became evil.

>>50292072
Thought he just went mad from having to fight them for thousands of years and being exposed to their corruption.

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>>50282478
>Is it just me, or did the game and world feel so much better when you were just another adventurer rather than the Best Paladin in the World Wielding the Best Weapon in the World?
The issue is that PCs have always been high-tier mercenaries in the world, standing above the rank-and-file soldiers of any given faction as exceptional specialists and fixers. They're designed to be one step below a full-blown WC3 hero PC (Thrall, Tirion, etc). It only makes sense that as time goes on and the world matures, your PC's resume only gets bigger and more impressive, proving that you're a one-of-a-kind champion. The world as a whole starts taking you as a PC more seriously during the start of Wrath; you survived the infamous Outland campaign, so clearly you must be some sort of badass.

>>50292072

>sees WC2 Kil'jaeden

I'm convinced the Burning Legion as a faction (instead of having powerful demon lords who have their followers but aren't members of some universe traveling crusade) hasn't worked out. This isn't helped by the setting has the Old Gods who end up having the same methods (complete with having a cult that undermines Azeroth's kingdoms).

>>50292231

Yes, the PCs are heroes but there should be a middle ground between doing footman jobs and being the eternal Chosen Ones.

>>50291388

Demigods don't operate on human morals.

>>50292465

>defending bad writing

None of the faction leaders worship the Celestials. They wouldn't have any requirements to
cuck for them.

>>50283706
>Tirion getting omgbbq's by some rando demon
Wasn't Tirion under extensive and sustained torture before he was recovered?

>>50291674
Stormwind should have become a republic after Varian was deposed
>no Defias
>Onyxia is exposed much earlier
>Bolvar gets beheaded and can't become the Lich King
>no blue warchief
>Pandaria doesn't happen because there's no "muh white pawn"

>>50284284
>>50285049
>>50290082
Arthas's story is one of the cleanest examples of the "fallen paladin" story. Arthas's story is a legitimate literary tragedy because he was laid low by his own character. It shows what happens when a person inherently weak of character fails to walk the straight and narrow and falls down the slippery slope into the abyss without him ever realizing it. Arthas willingly fell, even though he was still convinced all the way to the end that his cause was just.

>>50292535

I'm not defending the writing, which I think is bad. Just providing some explanation. Just because a human thinks that something a divine being is doing is "childish" doesn't really mean shit because gods operate on their own levels of morality.

>>50292659

Metzen pls go.

>>50292679

If not for me, there wouldn't be anything in these threads to talk about.

Show some respect, chump.

>>50291388
Don't forget the reunion of 2/3 of the Windrunner sisters and their agreement that Garrosh should die before the end of the trial, but Vereesa fails in poisoning Garrosh because she talked to Anduin and got cold feet, since her children are most important to her. Sylvanas felt irreparably betrayed.

>>50292449
That would require the PC's overall power to plateau at some point, which it doesn't. You can't just be Joe Pathfinder when you've got dragonslayer arrows in your quiver.

>>50292659

If they cant understand mortal morality, why the fuck are they holding court over them? Law is the expression of morality?

Also, why in the everloving fuck the celestials have juristdiction over Garrosh? Why isnt its an Alliance war tribunal? Or the Wardens? Or even the fucking dragons or something? Or why not go full vae victis and decapitate every garrosh follower, this atleast should have given the orcs something to angst about and darken the Alliance image a bit.

>>50292742

You totally can. Every major NPC sucking your dick for being such an ossum guy and having a GARRISON(ZOMG!) is better?

>>50292770
Both the Alliance and Horde demanded their own judgment, but Taran Zhu said "we get dibs because a) we're neutral, and b) Garrosh pulled his bullshit on Pandaria, so if anyone has a right to complain, it's the pandaren."

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>>50292790
>PC is King Badass of Eat My Shit Mountain
>Trying to live a quiet life with his daughter
>But the military keeps trying to pull him back because he's "the best they've ever had/seen"
>Terroris--sorry, cultists kidnap his daughter
>SIGH
>TIME FOR ONE MORE JOB

>>50292374
Except that Legion is bent on destruction, while Void wants to take over entire creation.

Amusingly, Legion's desire to eradicate all life is the reason why Shivarra joined Illidari - they exist to torment, and if all life is wiped out, then there is nobody to torment.

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>>50293068
Torment, seduce, same thing.

>>50292770
>If they cant understand mortal morality, why the fuck are they holding court over them? Law is the expression of morality?

I'm pretty sure the Celestials DO understand mortal morality. That doesn't mean they're going to hand out a sentence rooted in mortal mortality, though.

Look, it's shit writing. But is it really so difficult to comprehend that immortal god-like beings tied to the very world itself may have a different view on things? Generally, they are wiser than mortals and much longer-lived and so their decisions are usually grounded in the long term rather than the short term.

It's quite possible that the Celestials deemed their judgment of Garrosh had better long term consequences than short term ones. They may have seen a potential in Garrosh that the mortal leaders couldn't. I don't fucking now. All I know is that, from an in-universe perspective, it's supremely dumb to act confused as to why immortals do things differently from mortals.

Gods aren't humans. Elves aren't humans. Things that live for a long time aren't humans and people should stop chimping out when these long-lived beings do something different than a human would in the same situation.

Again, I want to stress that I'm NOT DEFENDING the writing. (Seriously, I don't want someone responding to my posts with some retarded bullshit like "Metzen pls go" or "fuck off Hordefag!" [even though I play Alliance, but that's how bad it's gotten in these threads]) I'm just working with what we've been given and trying to make sense of it.

Which have better lore, Alliance mages or warlocks?

>>50293111
Miss my tall six armed beauties. Had the best butts.

>>50293384
Depends on your definition of "better." That said, arcane magic isn't as irreparably damning as it once was, while fel is still dangerous to use if the warlock isn't exceptionally careful.

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>>50293399

>>50293420
I just want to play something fun instead of tanking instances all day, and casters seem to fit the bill.

>>50293270

>not defending the writing

>defends the writing

k

Guys, I have a kind of weird theory.

What if, right, what if... there is another "layer" to Azeroth? Like, the Emerald Dream is Azeroth as it would be without any alteration from sentient beings, the portion of the shadowlands that we walk around in when we're dead and the Dark Riders live in is Azeroth as it would be if it were edgy, et cetera. There are lots of instances where we "cross over" into another plane that's geographically identical to Azeroth, is part of Azeroth, that's linked to the main plane or even overlaps with it, et cetera.

Only this plane, right, this one... is the goofy, cartoon Azeroth. The main Azeroth is where we have the main "serious" lore, but in cartoon Azeroth, you canonically have gnome katamari damacy, an elf called Johnny Awesome riding around on a horse made of stars, a paladin called Marcus having threesomes with tauren, and mighty champions of the land rolling down the top of giant walls face first at high speeds, willingly.

The two are separate, but they overlap. Things move from one to the other. But the rules in each plane are different, and there is separation between them. Novels all take place in the main universe, hearthstone takes place in the cartoonish one, and in-game WoW takes place in between.

>>50293399
DHs get a bunch of them hanging in their order hall, and a copy of the boss in BT as an order waifu (although sadly she isn't one of the ones you can have as a permanent companion so you can only summon her as an AoE cooldown). I think in the beta it actually was the BT boss, but since that would screw up the timeline (DH intro quests take place at the same time as BT raid, so she couldn've been present in the quests and get ganked by 25 murderhoboes at the same time), so they just replalaced her with another supiciously identical Shivarra.

>>50293739

>trying to make sense of in-universe actions and decisions is the same as defending the writing from an out-of-universe perspective

ok

>>50293789
Well, it seems we found out the next expansion's power level: after acquiring various Artifacts, and empowering them much further than what their original/previous owners/creators ever dreamed of, we shall be blessed with... Cartoon Physics!

>>50292802

>The faction leaders are mad at the trial
>Sylvanas suggests they beat the hell out of Taran Zhu then go on a conquuest spree of Pandaria
>They do that
>The Horde gets to have Pandaria for backing out of Alliance lands
>And that's how the Alliance and Horde learned to fight together

>>50293068

Still not different enough in methods. From what we see in the games.

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>>50294693
Legion makes you glow green and have glowing green stuff going out of your skin.

Void makes you grow tentacles.

>>50295012
Legion:
>homogae founded by a butthurt titan
Void:
>cool club for cool people
>gives you tentacles to spice up your love life

>>50291674
Varian wanted the kill for himself, not to spare Garrosh.

>>50292560
>implying a Republic of Stormwind would have exposed Onyxia
>implying she wouldn't just run for President and charm her rivals into dropping out
>implying Bolvar, a Paladin and a paragon of traditional Stormwind values, would be executed by the mob
>implying the Alliance doesn't need an overall military commander for joint operations
>implying the Alliance or Horde ships wouldn't bump into Pandaria somehow anyway

>>50294651
>Sylvanas tries to wake up the Thunder King again and torture him into giving her his secrets
>emphasis - TRIES

Come on, you know she'd go for it at least once.

>>50294006
>>50293789
Headcanon accepted, gents.

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>Doesn't require it's members to be Undead
>Had advanced technology and magic
>Had a strong government that can look over the empire with ease
>Was open to all races
>Had the support of the citizens of Lordaeron in a revolution
>Was Arthas and Kel'thuzad approved

How were the Scourge bad again? At least when put up with the Alliance Cucks and Dindu Nuffins in the Horde.

>>50293111
>>50293433
OUTLANDS
U
T
L
A
N
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RIP TRUE HORDE

Garrosh knew that the TRUE HORDE didn't have room for prissy, mana junkie Elves, stoner Trolls who are manipulated by super shady Loa, and least of all the backstabbing Forsaken with their unstable bitch queen.
Tauren have true strength and honor, and goblins have the ingenuity necessary to help the horde. Garrosh knew this.

Thrall was right to move the Horde more toward shamanism and honor as Orgrim did before him, but he went too far and cucked the Horde with races that had no business joining.

Wrath and occasionally Cata Garrosh was god tier. Garrosh in MoP was straight up character assassination.

Really the Horde doesn't need a successor of Hellscream, who was too much of a warmonger, or a successor of Durotan who is too passive, but a successor of Orgrim. Can we get a retcon so that Orgrim has a son somewhere?

>>50295655
Which Orgrim? Orgrim "backstabber" Doomhammer or Orgrim "Dindu" Doomhammer?

>>50295672
Orgrim that wrecked Gul'dan and Blackhand with one hand and wrecked Stormwind with the other

>>50267110
To be honest, I never found the Malf/Tyrande thing too convincing.
Tyrande seems too dependant if you listen to her visiting the barrow and relying on him whenever shit hits the fan and he goes to take a few thousand year naps every time he fixes shit. Fuck you can argue he's been straight up abusive at times as well.
And in Val'sharah it's suddenly all ¨I love him so much!¨ ¨Tyrande I NEED you!¨
It just feels so forced, like blizz shoving our faces into the story screaming: THERE! THEY LOVE EACH OTHER VERY DEARLY, YOU SEE IT?!

>>50295655
Jorin Deadeye could do the job.
Because Dranosh Saurfang is dead.

>>50295900
Tyrande is a giant bitch who thinks she is a god-queen but Based Malf has to come in and fix her shit every time. She is the only character in the entire franchise more insufferable than Illidan. They belong together.

>>50295960
I'd love a Saurfang warchief but it's apparent that we aren't going to get that at this point

>>50293068
There are some things that bothered me about Sargeras and the burning legion in respects to the void gods goals:
Sargeras knows they want to create an evil supertitan of darkness to enslave and torment the universe just for the heck of it.
Sargeras knows this and goeson to become the fel titan. A superpowered abomination of a titan trying to force slavery and finally destruction upon all life.
He enlists the demons by telling them he knows how to permanently kill them and will do so if they don't help him with his plan of eradicating all life, including them.
Life being what it is tries it's hardest to stand against or survive the feltitan-abomination and it's hordes, bringing destruction and torment to everyone.

Somewhere the Voidlords are laughig their asses of.

>>50295962
Still shipping the huntress and the hunter.
They will have a love-hate relationship that ends up being more happy then anything tyrande is capable of.
Also Illidan died for your sins, what have you given?

>>50296098
gas the illidari
delete all demon hunter chars
give Illidan back to the Legion

>>50296172
The expected and only fitting response to that.
I'll go and scrub mysef now.

>>50293433
>>50293111
I shudder to think what six arms are capable of...

>>50296098
A fuck, which is why I did not end up as a self-entitled jobber that chose to have a demon stapled to my soul.

If you look at Legion, there's no bigger proof that the Demon Hunters are useless pricks than Meryl Firestorm. Dude had a Dreadlord trapped inside himself, and had the willpower to live with it whispering sweet nothings in his ear for ages before it managed to escape due to player interference. Meanwhile, Demon Hunters are too lazy to learn magic or do some physical training to become powerful by themselves, so they shove any one imp up their ass, whine to the world about the "sacrifices" they've made, and then get corrupted within a few years.

DHs are literally the class version of the guy that will do aything to reach the TV remote, as long as it doesn't involve actually getting up and walking to it.

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>>50296060
The irony is strong in Warcraft series.

>>50296312
Well, most undead have a puffer of darkness binding their soul to their bodies. With Meryl I'm quiet certain it works in a similar way, the puffer restricting the demon's soul's capabilities to deeply corrupt someone as well as him being already dead, his body wouldn't really undergo mutations in any way...
Guess undead are perfect prisons for demons...

>>50296312
Well, there was one competent Demon Hunter. Though now he has Rak'likh bound to himself, so he can't go on and continue being based. Because I would make him second in command over Kayn and especially Altruis any day.

>Maiev was so bent on removing DHs that she went to Nagrand just to imprison Altruis, despite him defecting and her being unlikely to know he's there.

>>50296224
Four for you, two for herself.

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Seems comfy, despite its history.

>>50295507
hurr durr you can't just go around poisoning people to death and turning them into zombies

fucking hippy cucks ruined Azeroth's best chance to stop the Legion.
Thankfully uncle Bolvar is gonna fix that

>>50297324
You know, we could still have the old champions be risen by bolvar... deathknight doomhammer might want his hammer back... and old lothar might want to clean some mess up.

>>50297487

And of course they bring Arthas back. But as his TFT version with his soul back.

new thread
>>50297768
>>50297768
>>50297768