/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

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I'm just itching for some good, monster based horror movie, with blood, gothic tone, and just the right amount of tits and perversion, with a World of Darkness feeling.

Any reccs? I just keep getting disappointed.

>>49993298
Mages and Changelings interact amazingly. There's just so much shit you can do! So many intersections and touch-point that the two splats will agree or disagree on.
Even on the most superficial level, Mages and Changelings are amazing cautionary tales for each other.
Mages frequently discarding the thing Changelings want most in the world, and Changeling showing Mages exactly what the risks are for poking your nose in too deep.

Mummies and Werewolves I would say are the worst.

CoD relies entirely too much on tacking OC Do Not Steal thematic 'nuh uhs' onto monstrous abilities in order to force the tone of the setting.


You're going to be a Werewolf who ignores the spiritual elements of the setting? Nuh uh, if you do you won't be able to progress your renown/honor/glory/etc. which mechanically affects how strong you are in combat.

You're going to be a Vampire who takes just enough blood from humans to get by without hurting them? Nuh uh, you can't do that because the bite causes people to become mentally ill.

You're going to be a Frankenstein who wants to do literally anything, anything at all? Nuh uh, pyros azoth wildfires fucking made up promethean abortion ghosts etc.
The story can't just be monstrous because you're monsters and humans see your monstrous actions as horrible.
The story has to be monstrous because of some baggage the writers add onto every aspect of your character, that relates in precisely no ways to any source material, and probably involves pissing off some kind of spirit or another.

And in the absence of really any other system focused around being monsters, you're just stuck houseruling all this shit out.

>>49993606
I like Changelings and Vampires sharing a similar taste for politics, "feeding" off people, and knowing that you've been forever changed and can never really go back, even if you want.

>>49993699
Yes, if you don't want to play in the setting, you have to do houseruling. That's how it is with most games.

Why would you need to do monstrous actions if nothing is forcing you to be monstrous? Just be a human and do monster things. Humans can drink just a little blood from humans.

http://www.strawpoll.me/11514746

>>49993699
Do you play a wizard when you want to swing a sword? Role up a theif when the urge hits you to play a scientist?
These games have certain stories they are meant to tell.

If you don't want to be monstrous perhaps you shouldn't play the system when you play the monster.
Try Exalted or Gurps.

>>49993699
>the bite causes people to become mentally ill
???

Ok I know the the bite is mad tits fake sexy times but thats kind of stretching it.

And When did drinking human blood become OK in society

>>49993699
>You're going to be a Werewolf who ignores the spiritual elements of the setting? Nuh uh, if you do you won't be able to progress your renown/honor/glory/etc. which mechanically affects how strong you are in combat.
>You're going to be a Vampire who takes just enough blood from humans to get by without hurting them? Nuh uh, you can't do that because the bite causes people to become mentally ill.

Its almost like there's mechanics designed to reinforce the thematic elements of the setting through gameplay, or something

>>49993802
What if I want a system with in-depth rules for being a Werewolf, that focuses on the difficulties that you would face as a Werewolf, with conflicts focused around coming to terms with being a Werewolf, but I also don't want to be forced to be a Power Ranger who talks to ghosts, who consults with a shaman who makes deals with a used-condom spirit, that places a frankly unhealthy amount of time justifying why two Werewolves having sex is worse than incest.

>>49993835
The kiss automatically causes swooning or scarred depending on whether it's non-violent or violent in 2e.

>>49994013
You mean the penalties you get for ignoring the thematic elements that exist in no other Werewolf/Vampire media, that exist solely to punish players who don't adhere to the setting original content.

>>49994418
>I'm annoyed that the book written for a specific universe doesn't automatically accomodate my desire to jury-rig it to work in some other Universe of my own design
Haha, get fucked.

>>49994418
Two werewolves having sex isn't a problem anymore.
Have you read the new book?

>>49994418
Anon I know you haven't done it with a woman in some time. But when you do it right thats what the bite feels like, but if you do it wrong and they beat you, up that is also the bite.

You see just because people call women crazy doesn't mean that they are actually. You're confusing the two, Anon. They're not mentally ill, they just don;t like you. Don't worry one day you'll mean a nice ... person and it'll all work out for you.

>>49994442
No, I'm annoyed that the setting original content is all bad and obviously exists for no other reason than to force characters into hackneyed archetypes.

>>49994546
You mean the one that introduced a race of demonic Ratmen for Werewolves to protect the world against, just like all the classic Werewolf stories had?

>>49994556
Except that's not how it works faggot.

If you bite someone forcefully they're scarred, if you bite them non-forcefully they're swooning.
The option to bite someone because you're hungry without jacking off under the table doesn't exist.

It is like this solely to remind players that being a Vampire is a cursed existence, that the action tied to their very existence is sexual and damaging, and all that other Twilight-tier hogshit that goth faggots eat up.

And so the average player doesn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that there is literally no ethical drama if all they do is drink 1 dot of blood off 10 different people in a night when you don't add some 'gotcha' to it.

>>49994665
>It is like this solely to remind players that being a Vampire is a cursed existence
Grab some blood bags you whiny cunt

I've joined this oWoD discord channel lately and hoo boy is it shit.

>Vozhd rampaging through the streets for no reason
>Prince using Obtenebration in plain sight
>The main 'storyteller's' character has Temporis
>They've completely disregarded the Red Fear (another vampire was using a flamethrower)
>Also have a random Child of Osiris running around

How shit have your experiences been /tg/? Can you feel the salt?

>>49994665
>>49994556

"if you do it wrong and they beat you, up that is also the bite. "
>If you bite someone forcefully they're scarred,

"But when you do it right thats what the bite feels like,"
>if you bite them non-forcefully they're swooning.

Anon where did the Manly English Teacher touch you that you never learned Reading Comprehension?

>>49994665
Stop prentending inflicting lethal damage to feed isn't a big deal. Swooning and Scarred are not mental illnesses, but in-game rationalizations of why most people don't go reporting that some asshole bit them. The bite also spreads disease, and feeding on ten different people is way more difficult than you make it out to be.

>>49995269
Don't bother he's obviously a Republican. If the harm doesn't affect him he doesn't care

>>49994665
You are the epitome of whiny bullshit.
Jesus Christ, just play a Werewolf game in GURPS or something. Just play your Vampire game where there's no downsides or drawbacks or repurcussions for being a vampire and you can just chew into the neck of 10 people and it doesn't cause problems.
Also, have you ever played a "traditional" Werewolf story, where you just turn into a Wolfman three nights a month?
That's pretty boring.

>>49994747
For a second I misread that as Obfuscate and thought "isn't doing it in plain sight the whole point?"
Also, aren't you the one being salty? I mean, at least from what you just said people seem to be having fun, even if it sounds dumb as fuck.
Also, my experiences with persistent chat settings and MUSH style games is that they're horrible bullshit. Basically similar to your own experiences, but with more pointless backstabbing. Cliques taking over and either strongarming the STs or having the ST be part of the clique and rewarding (or not punishing) their favourites. Everyone else exists solely to colour the world for the *real* group. People letting OOC feelings dictate IC actions. Blatant cheating. Ignoring common sense things like "wizard cops shouldn't kidnap people". I once got put on trial because some hobos that were never mentioned watched me do vulgar magic to stop a fight between some losers and a Banisher/Seer, but the Arrow was throwing celestial fire with his Supernal Familiar. After a week of me being confined to jail IC, the story officially said he was a fucking idiot and I clearly wasn't a BaniSeer. He ragequit. Another time my Sanctum was burned down, the ST basically declared it as such that we could do nothing, the guy who did it deleted his character to avoid facing the consequences, and then he used his ST permissions to sanction his own character [a no-no] and then join up with the clique that benefited the most from our movers and shakers being fucked over.

Chat games are fucking garbage.

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>>49995757
>Chat games are fucking garbage.
Truth. This post. It always happens

>People defending beasts and vampires in the previous thread
fucking race traitors.

>>49993400
Not sleazy like you mentioned but Stranger Things is pretty WoD.

>>49993400
Werner Herzog's Nosferatu and Coppola's Dracula are good.

>>49995854

Eh, tried it, but I guess I'm an outlier as it just didn't scratch my itch.

>>49995970

Seen them a long while back. I'm not having much luck with horror/urban fantasy recently.

Supernatural has been around so long it's pretty much a habit that provides no real satisfaction, Stranger Things bored me and the kid characters annoyed me, I liked American Horror Story but it's over with for now, Daybreakers was fun if flawed, I loved Only Lovers Left Alive and may rewatch it for the nighttime city shots alone, but aside from these nothing really sticks out.

From Dust Til Dawn (the Netflix show) didn't grab me early on, but that was because it was a shitty retelling of a classic as far as i got, and now it has three seasons I imagine it's become it's own entity. I may try it next, even if the vampires have that oddly squishy thing going on. Surprised they don't die falling down stairs.

Anyone have the updated Mage 2e PDF with errata?

>>49996152
Give Penny Dreadful a watch, I dont watch many straight up horror movies, I can recommend plenty of great sleazy movies...
Actually watch Bringing Out The Dead. It is about an ambulance driver that sees the ghosts of people he cant save. Fucking awesome flick. Goes great in a double feature with Taxi Driver

>>49996186

Seen Penny Dreadful, thanks, and it was pretty gud, aside from dying far too early (did we ever get a clearer answer than the bullshit one the showrunner gave?).

I'll check out Bringing Out The Dead, thanks.

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>>49995757
>Owod, It's crossover
>Be a damn ST
> player fcks up three times(she is the admin)
She's playing the street urchin on the run from the big bad Tech.
> Runs into them on the first day, turns self in.
> Run minor adventure for admin and murderhobo in a broken Tech chantry. let the players run out.
Literal MurderHobo, Homeless Stabbing Evil for sack of being evil. her Magic is drugs and Stabbings, herself and others.
> Second adventure, run her backstory, she's an escaped experiment.
> Enter Brokendown laboratory.
> Finds out she is a clone. MurderHobo takes over adventure and wants to unplug the Original Mage on life support
> Have to stop the adventure so admin can make her own damn choice in her own damn story.
> FastForward She's in the hospital. Don't know WHY I was on vacation that month
> Gets prescribed Meds, Other ST said they'd handle it. [Spoiler] they don't. LazyBitch[/spoiler]
> Meds make her a sleepwalker, but cures her insanity.
> MurderHoBo flushes meds down the drain
> Admin overdoses in desperate attempt towards sanity
> ??? Fuck this bitch
> Admin is the Sister of a high ranking NPC turned PC. Wants to fix her head.
> They're lazy fucks and never get around to it
> Runs around town, gets fucked by vampires. Bleeding out gets taken to hospital.
> Hospital says FCK IT and dejects her ass to a pyshic Ward. Run Living by Techies
> Enter "Rescue Mission" MurderHoBo, FurrFastist, Bronie(Nice guy, wrong crowd), and Bob. Bob Is cool
> Enter Normal hospital, magical hampering field. Not even a no magic field
> Enter Pam the Receptionist Huge Mind Shield
> MurderHobo casts knock off charm spell. Works kindof
> Pam explains the hospital procedures. Offers a Tour and A meeting with the Head Adminstration.
> Explains they'll need to give some ID
> Explains that they'll be searched for Sharp objects and Drugs. Pretty Reasonable, don't want sharp things around mentally damaged folks
(cont.)

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>>49996410
> MurderHobo flips his shit.
> Pam doesn't back down, All good will lost in this tantrum
> FurFast, Bronie and Bob agree and hand over ID
Why these fucking bitchs didn't use Fakes IDs. Fuck these dumb bitchs expecting me to hand them the Technocrats for a third time
> FF Bronie and Bob walk inside
> MurderHobo walks outside and around the back
> I try to introduce a simple character to explain the situation. Calls him a fag, welp that NPC is not going to help anymore
> Ground FireDoor only opens from Inside, Handle is on the Inside, cause yeah fuck this exact situation.
> Fire Escape swings down from second story
> MurderHoBo procedes to fail muliptle Climbs checks
> -murderhobo why don't you use magic-? Bitch has forces bitch has life. literally a dozen ways for her to do this. Dumb bitch never learned the game in over six months of play time. FFFFFFF
> Not helping her this time, cause fuck this bitch claiming to beat the techies twice before hand, with those preivous milk run shit.
> After about a hot minute of roll fail. Flaming jackass wouldn't use willpower. Declare he can simply forgo roll by taking an hour to do so.
> MurderHoBo is barely contianing his shit. I'm a smug ass, but I'm trying not to show it.
> Finally he'll calm down, and learn not to rush nope
>Realize He's been trying to rush blitz the scene the whole damn time
> I've sat down and ran a ten man PVP, I'm NOT getting rushed down
> At this point inside team has actually made progress.
> Bob distracted Nurse while FurFast and Bronie got away
> Nurse Explains the hospital staff, goals and operations

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>>49996425
>>49996410
> Nurse Explains the hospital staff, goals and operations

> MurderHoBo Calls inside. Says "Pull the Fire Alarm"
> Realize this is a desperation move
> I pause the session to talk with Side ST about what this means
>Reads Hospital procedure.
> Two Alarms. Aid has to go check before a general alarm is called. Makes sence flashing lights loud Noices around the unstable is a bad idea. Determines that makes perfect sences for techies control and procedure orienated paradigm.
> Standard technology is awesome. Cameras are awesome. Eletrical trips are awesome.
> They Pull the alarm
> no lights no loud noices ... beat ...
> Oldman runs around the corner out of breath with a fire extinguisher. Asks Fire?
> Bronie asks to call for the night. I like bronie I agree and let him and FurFast Fair escape away. Basically thinking escorted out
> Give rest of the players options to fair escape. They take it.
> Give Admin a chance to escape. fucks it up
> Escapes general population. Good Start. Runs into hallways without a clue, bad start. Not giving Players anymore chances. lead her to doctor. so we can move the plot
> Meets the Doctor. Doctor Asks what happened, being all dipolmantic. Please explain. Meeting you halfway.
> Roundhouse Sit. Luls No I have labcoat Armor.
> Runs away again
> I'm too nice
> Led her run to roof.
> has a temp guardian spirt, never claimed it. FFFFUUU
> Lets her climb onto the roof fencing. Tells her jumps = maybe escape, most probably death. Perfect opertunity to End the Madness Now, like she'd been wanting to and saying to for a while.
> Chickens out like a coward.
> Goes back
> Doc offers One more chance to explain. Attacks again.
> Doc is done with this and tazes the bitch. Should have just shot her.
> I'M SO DONE
> They complain. Fck these bitchs
> Handoffs the adventure to another ST. Rehash material. Don't care it's over.

(Cont)

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>>49996451

> two weeks later, Gets IDed for looking at the park with a telescoping magical item. ... From three miles away. LazyFucking Bitch gives the character's Secrete ID For free, To the Entire Venue. FUCK THAT CHEATING HORSE SHIT. Not the first time FurrFag has pulled that NPC metagaming horse crap. but just the right time for me to say fuck that sht.

>Two Weeks after THAT ADmin Murderfucks an old folks Home.
>Finally Two Weeks After that Roit for everyone not the ADmin's Cabal

>>49994665

Sorry anon but the skaven-lite were in 1st and 2nd.

>>49994665

>And so the average player doesn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that there is literally no ethical drama if all they do is drink 1 dot of blood off 10 different people in a night when you don't add some 'gotcha' to it.

You are complaining that vampires dont have any drawback or that they have too many? You autism is confusing.

>>49994418
>The kiss automatically causes swooning or scarred depending on whether it's non-violent or violent in 2e.

Yeah. They get fucked up for a short while. But you know what, they get over it. Rather quickly too.
It's not as if they become, eh, I dunno, mentally ill from it.

>>49993699
>>49994418
>>49994665
Wait.
Are you complaining that there are actual repercussions from feeding off of people as a vampire?

Chapter 1 of the story.
http://archiveofourown.org/works/8402227

>>49993699
>You're going to be a Werewolf who ignores the spiritual elements of the setting? Nuh uh, if you do you won't be able to progress your renown/honor/glory/etc. which mechanically affects how strong you are in combat.
If you don't go into the spirit, they'll still give you renown for worthy deeds. You don't have to do anything in the spirit for it to exist.

But if you're some sort of weirdie who demands there is no spirit in your game and werewolves must only hunt humans, aside from having really really easy combat, you can just have a rite that gives you renown (its how 1e did it)

>>49994665
>You mean the one that introduced a race of demonic Ratmen for Werewolves to protect the world against, just like all the classic Werewolf stories had?
In classic werewolf stories, werewolves killed good people or demons. Beshilu/azlu can fit as demons.

How would you go about adding a bit of Morality to Beast?

I'm thinking about using Conditions like Guilty for if you sate your Hunger without paying lip service to your Lesson, or even simply losing Satiety if you do something shitty enough. I don't want to just give them Integrity back, but I do kind of want to make it so that they've got a very Vampire-esque "you feel sad when you're reminded you're a monster" thing going on.

Anyone here to answer a rather specific M20 rules question?

>>49997828
Just ask the question or gtfo. Faggot.

>>49997859
How many instruments do I need for a spell in M20?

>>49997876
One, faggy mcfagface.

>>49993699
This is pretty crazy but: Have you tried playing D&D?

>>49997939
>This is pretty crazy but: Have you tried playing D&D?

To be fair for a supposedly tool box sometimes it feel the designer do a "my way or gtfo"

>>49997994
Yeah, but you got 5 editions to pick from, plus 3rd party versions like PF and FC.

>>49998017
>Yeah, but you got 5 editions to pick from, plus 3rd party versions like PF and FC.

I meant CoFD and their over enforcing of themes.

>>49997994
>>49998041
Not really. The setting and system are toolboxes, but this isn't a Generic Universal Roleplaying System. That does exist, though, if you'd prefer. Chronicles of Darkness is first and foremost meant to be played in a specific setting that has many optional components. More than that, some tools require a lot less tweaking compared to others. You can go outside of the "forced" themes. It just means more work on your part. And the notion that they should do something different because that's what you want is sort of silly, and clearly not what most fans want. As another Anon said, these games are very strongly sold on the setting, and things like "werewolves are pack hunters and shaman" is one of the aspects of that setting that people like.

If you don't like that, though, and want to just play a game about someone who turns into an uncontrollable murder beast... well, that's still a possibility. You're just going to have to do your own groundwork, since you're going far outside of what the game is meant for.
Check out the Forsaken Chronicler's Guide for that.

>>49993699
Not this shit again. Someone had started a similar thread about 40k RPG a couple weeks back. If you wanna do shit like this you have GURPS/FATE/Savage Worlds/whatever else. Systems like the FFG 40k RPG and oWoD/CoD have a very particular setting that they are going for, and trying to be some kind of special snowflake that goes around all of it is missing the point of playing such a system. Despite DnD also being mostly open, if you play one of their special settings like Greyhawk, Eberron, Dark Sun, etc. similar rules will have to be followed, too.

While it's true that having too much metaplot can screw with options for the player, that's why CoD exists so that while there's still cool setting/lore, it doesn't get in the way of gameplay. Second, if you want to find ways around certain things, just get creative. Ex. lot of my trolling directed at my superiors in MET is done through coordinating me getting away with it through my Primogen, one time I pissed off a keeper of elysium and managed to survive thanks to a particular Discipline my character had access to plus some lucky rolls.

>>49993400
-Primer (feels like a Mage game)
-Late Phases (Elderly Hunter v BSD)
-Only Lovers Left Alive (Toreador, A how-to guide)
- Aguirre, The Wrath of God (Desperate, evil explorers get what's coming to them)
- Sinister (A Mortal fucks with a a Specter's Fetter.)

>>49998125

I didnt mean sometimes as extreme as overhauling the whole game. But as mechanically broken as OWoD was something i feel was more tool-boxy in nature was that it never tell you what you character felt. Werewolves never had mechanically enforced (or at least that i remember) inherent psychological/personality traits by default. Same with mages (though i dont remember if vampire had to be shitheads by nature).

While in CoFD you have all mage must be hubristic and/or obsessive. All werewolves must think in terms of the hunt, apparently all changeling will be mercurial. Is not even about playing the special snowflake but as ST, if i wanna make a say werewolf who doesnt hunt but instead play the politic game or a mage who is not particular obsessive about mystic shit but wants to grab a position on the concilium (which is an example on one of the books). It feels a little constraining, not a deal breaker though but i dont see the whole "toolbox" advantage CoFD posses over OWoD when as a DM im free to shit all over the "canon" as long as i let the player now beforehand in either games.

>>49998843
>Werewolves never had mechanically enforced (or at least that i remember) inherent psychological/personality traits by default.
If your rage got too high you'd wig out, and if your willpower got too low you could go into Harano and become useless.
> i dont remember if vampire had to be shitheads by nature
The only thing that Vampires had was Fear of Fire and the Sun, as well as occasional problems with wanting to feed really, really bad if they're low on blood.
>While in CoFD you have all...
Because on a certain level, those games are meant to have certain tones. You can blend the tones with others, but the underlying mechanics and fluff support a certain kind of story.

>>49998843
>But as mechanically broken as OWoD was something i feel was more tool-boxy in nature was that it never tell you what you character felt.
Except that it does. All the time.
Even then, the argument that CofD "tells you how to feel" is sort of missing the point. It tells you how to feel in that your actions have repercussions and you generally don't get to decide them. You get to decide how to react to them, but you don't get to decide how you feel about certain things any more than you do in real life. That's sort of the whole point. And oWoD had it a ton, they were just a whole hell of a lot worse at managing it.

It's not constraining, that's the *whole point of the system*. The CofD games are all about playing in settings where your nature is inhuman and different. Systems that mechanically incentive playing someone who's morals and outlook have been changed are not a bad thing.

CofD is still very much a toolbox, and far more of a toolbox than oWoD's very defined and detailed metaplot. Complaining that your toolbox for running modern urban fantasy horror games doesn't inherently have the tools for running high fantasy action heroics pulp games (or whatever else) is like complaining that your toolbox for painting doesn't have roofing nails and shingles.

Why not just play another game if you don't like the setting? White Wolf games have always had their setting tied relatively close to their mechanics.

>>49999494
>Why not just play another game if you don't like the setting? White Wolf games have always had their setting tied relatively close to their mechanics.

I like the setting what i dislike (a little, like i said not a dealbreaker) is how all werewolves and mages feel the same (werewolves think in terms of the hunt and mages are obsessive)

>>49998997
>CofD is still very much a toolbox, and far more of a toolbox than oWoD's very defined and detailed metaplot. Complaining that your toolbox for running modern urban fantasy horror games doesn't inherently have the tools for running high fantasy action heroics pulp games (or whatever else) is like complaining that your toolbox for painting doesn't have roofing nails and shingles.

What? Anon please, your autism is showing. I never said anything about running "high fantasy action heroics pulp games" just that

A) Just because the setting is left up in the air in many parts doesnt a tool box make. If i wanna make a all-lancea sactum city in Requiem i have to warn the players as much if i was gonna make an all caitiff city in masquerade.

B) >>49998997
>The CofD games are all about playing in settings where your nature is inhuman and different. Systems that mechanically incentive playing someone who's morals and outlook have been changed are not a bad thing.

Past wod games lend more on playing a different biology and society (Now you turn into a wolf, have this fuck up garou nation to deal with). Even lost 1st, did the same as it didnt dictate how your character felt (morality scale aside).

To me it feel restrictive as both DM and Player the way the system forcefully makes you a defined psychology traits. I can ignore obsessions in mage and just downplay them but Werewolf get tricky as many gift only work on the hunt.

>>50000346
>I never said anything about running "high fantasy action heroics pulp games" just that
>(or whatever else)

You can argue that oWoD didn't tell you how your character felt, but considering the long paragraphs about how characters feel and stats LITERALLY being named after emotions, that's bullshit. They had all of that, they just didn't handle it well. The CofD games on the other hand gamify those themes and make them have mechanical weight, which in turn gives them narrative and emotional weight. And yes, in 1st edition nWoD, you had plenty of systems to "dictate how your character felt". In fact, that's a complaint a friend of mine had long before she played 2e.

You can tell me you liked the old way better, and that's fine. But don't act like the old way didn't tell you all about how your character was supposed to feel when there were whole chapters about your biology and society and their effect on you, along with stats like Rage and Self-Control and Angst.

>>50000346

I think you just need to play another game, maybe something with a different design philosophy. You might just not like games that puts heavier emphasis on enforcing archtypes, which is the direction CofD 2e wants to go in with its system.

>>50000569

It told you how your character might feel, but in practice it's not that it didn't do it well as much as it didn't do it at all. That's not a knock on the system, because back then we didn't even know that was something we could do with mechanics. Now instead of the only way to play, it's one way to play, and some people like it more than any of the other ways.

>>50000681
>I think you just need to play another game, maybe something with a different design philosophy. You might just not like games that puts heavier emphasis on enforcing archtypes, which is the direction CofD 2e wants to go in with its system.

Suuure anon or i could ignore the mechanic i consider shit. Funny how CoFD fanboys like to wear the "its a toolbox" like is some sort of medal of honor but as soon as someone doesnt like 1 aspect is all "You should play something else"

>>50000681
>Now instead of the only way to play, it's one way to play, and some people like it more than any of the other ways

Thats the most stupid thing i read in 4chan......just wow. You earn the cookie today.

>>50000346
>Werewolf get tricky as many gift only work on the hunt
Werewolves also have a background entirely based on this, being inhuman creatures, and it ties into their origins.
A werewolf could easily create his own gifts not based on the hunt, but the ones that are based down from their forefathers will be.
It sounds like you have more an issue with how the game lines each have a strong overarching theme than anything else.
That said, the reason it is called a tool box is because while each game line has a theme to explore, you do not need to bind yourself to it, and the basic rules and setting can be used to run many kinds of urban horror ideas.

>>50000681
>Now instead of the only way to play, it's one way to play, and some people like it more than any of the other ways.

Because fuck creativity am i right mate? Look at those peasants trying to tweak the game as this was some kind of toolbox or some shit. Dont they know that everytime someone doesnt play the exact standard way the dev intended a furfag gets triggered? How dare they?

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>>49995844
Hey Man I have no problem with them being monsters, or can be played like dark knights or victims of circumstance.

Just don't try to pretend that Roofies aren't rapey as >>49994469 Believes

>>50000842

Personally i am more annyoned when making npcs to have to consider those things that are apparently intrinsic to all which makes it repetitive and are also things more designed for pcs than npc as the latter must have less (not none, just less) agency than the former.

>>50000730

You shouldn't have to ignore the mechanic, especially when the system would really like you to use it. 1e was a toolbox, but 2e is clearly becoming something else, and it's OK to not enjoy that, and you might be happier if you found something that synced better with how you like to play. This can even be as simple as just sticking to 1e.

>>50000867

If you have to fight the game to get the kind of game that you like to play, it's not creativity anymore, it's just busywork. With the immense amount of systems and playstyles that exist, you should be able to find one to your liking.

No one's a bad person for wanting to play a game in a way that a dev doesn't want them to, but sometimes it's just easier to play a different game.

>>50000730
>Pulling out core mechanics with setting implications

I'm not saying don't do it. Just understand, thats a Shit tone of extra over head and work to have to go through. Or you could just play something else. If you want something you do the fcuking work. don't come crying to tg and expect it to agree

>>50000909
Like what?
What is keeping you from taking motes of different sides and changing them up?
The open nature of the setting means you could reasonably create a heretofore unknown creature, or even variety of existing splat, and it would be entirely kosher in the realm of the game.
You don't like werewolves as antagonists? Here is a tribe of *insert near cousins* with their own set of *reflavored Gifts that mechanically are similar and thematically are different* instead.
Don't like vampires as stated? Here is an entirely different breed with it's own history and archetypes.
Seriously, I'm sorta confused about your quarrel when it feels like some familiarity with the system and some personal creativity is what is called for.

>>50000906
Roofies aren't rapey when self-medicated.

>>50001044
>Anon please put this into your drink, so you'll pass out and I can fornicate all over your face, without your knowledge

try again Broke Turner

>>50001021
>Princess: The Hopeful ?

>>50000681
It told you how your character should feel, but had no actual systems in place to encourage emotional weight to it, which is what leads to Vampion style play. Your character has no compunction against or reason NOT to just go ripping criminals arms off. And oWoD *tried* to have emotionally resonant mechanics--again, there were stats like Self-Control, Courage, Angst, Rage, Willpower, Pathos, etcetera--it just didn't know how to do anything with them besides have them.

>>50000867
You can tweak the game all you want. Just don't bitch and moan that you have to tweak it. Again, you're complaining that the game doesn't do a thing you want it to do but that it doesn't have any interest in being.

>>50000909
What are you even going on about? You realize you're not supposed to fuss over every little thing when making NPCs, right?

>>50000983
>>50000730
2e is just as much of a toolbox. You just seem confused about what "Toolbox" means. It doesn't mean that this game is GURPS.
It means that if you want to play Demon as Jason Bourne you can, or you could play it like Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. It means that if you dont' want Demons to exist, they don't. It means that if everything Supernatural is actually Faeries, then it is. It means that if you don't want any supernatural societies, there aren't any. If you want a big conspiracy of all the heads of all the Supernatural groups getting together, then you can have that.

It does not however mean that the game is GURPS.

So one of my mage awakening players want to join the guardians of the veil. So far i handwave them because i dont understand laberynths but now im gonna have to put spotlight on them.

Does wod have any sourcebook for human cults ala wod mafia or 13 precint? I dont know anything about real life non magical cults and my only idea is CoC cannon fodder cultist.

Where i could get more info on them?

>>50001075
I think he means if you roofie yourself and jerk off?

>>50001021
If someone wants "traditional" Werewolves, really they should use Hunter. Or Wolfblooded. Or simply use only certain aspects of the Werewolf template (why is this guy talking about Gifts anyway? Lon Chaney didn't have those).

Hell, Demon's STG tells you how to use Werewolves/Vampires/Prometheans/Mages in your Demon game using only Demon mechanics.

>>50001336

>2e is just as much of a toolbox

The tight, intricate storytelling mechanics of games that 2e takes a page from have a tendency to clash with the modular thematic and mechanical style of 1e's design philosophy. While 2e's ruleset makes a decent compromise between the two, it has intentially eased up on some of the last edition's toolbox nature in order to provide the "emotional weight and meaningfulness" you prefer. Toolboxes and narrative mechanics don't play well together without a lot of effort to keep their natures in balance.

It's still a toolbox in many ways, and the game's never been anywhere near GURPS, but there's a clear step toward a more focused setting and style of storytelling gameplay in CofD 2e that the designers of 1e never took because of the circumstances of that edition's development.

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>>50001358
>I think he means if you roofie yourself and jerk off?
Anon please

>>50001336
>It means that if everything Supernatural is actually Faeries, then it is.
um no. thats not a toolbox thats just you randomly rewriting their setting. anyone can do that with any game.

>>50001605
> How many alt d&d settings are there?

a shit ton, every game is a tool box. because all tabletops can be modified on the fly. You can't do that with videogames.

If St is writing the world and running the game, he could do whatever the fucks he wants. Anon doesn't have to play it. As long as the ST is up from about it. There's no problem

>>50000906
Except the kiss isn't rape and only an autistic virgin would equate the two?

Do you just fundamentally misunderstand what it is that makes rape horrible and causes victims to kill themselves?

The kiss doesn't pervert a basic human desire into a source of fear and shame, it doesn't cripple the victims ability to create meaningful relationships by giving them fear of intimacy, it doesn't cause months of terrifying uncertainty about being pregnant or infected with diseases that can mean never being able to find a significant other.
The kiss has none of the consequences of being a rape victim, the similarities are solely aesthetic.

And yes, the Vampire bite has always been sexual in fiction, but unironically implying that being the victim of the kiss is even remotely equitable to rape is entirely wrong.

>>50001021
>Like what?

Like say a mage of the local consilium who is a lich but manages to steal one soul from a tourist in a tourist city so he doesnt stand out.

He is part of the ladder but doesnt do much beside managing his ilegal bussiness and enjoy inmortality. He doesnt care about mysteries so he rarely if ever comes into conflict with other mage so he never under scrutiny but as he sell good luck charms to the hierarch (melancholy carnival) so they dont look to close into him either.

A vidantus arrow who broke an oath by avenging his death husband and became a vidantus and joined the free council. He is apathic and cant seem to care about much just going through the motions but his "lack of caring" couple by him being the head of the free council makes him politically volatile

Basically a mages without obsessions.

>>50001895
>or infected with diseases that can mean never being able to find a significant other.

I am pretty sure you can get an blood transferable disease from the feeding.

A werewolf movie buff who loves the golden age of Hollywood monster movies, he cries everytime he sees The Wolfman because he knows he'll never live in a world where he isn't scheduled to hunt down a rogue colostomy bag spirit who had been killing people on the local hospital in a week.

>>50001952
So can you from a blood transfusion, but the horror of that isn't rooted in the event itself.

>>50001895
Not him, and while I'd otherwise agree with you, but...
>kiss doesn't pervert a basic human desire
Sure it does. While simply biting and taking blood from a mortal is a rather mechanical act, the supernatural compunction to provide pleasure is in of itself a change, or perversion, of otherwise natural reaction.

That being said, while referencing the consequences of rape is one thing, if we look at it from a form of consent, then, sure, the Kiss would be non-consent. Unless you say that applying a Swooning condition while feeding non-violently (Blood and Smoke p. 95) is somehow consensual, which is... an odd thing to say, i suppose.

>>50001988

"It could all be so simple, Brendan."

"You know, he's never in control of when he changes, and he still ends up killing people that he loves. I'm not entirely sure why---"

"You didn't get sprayed with the essence of shit, Brendan! You don't even know what that tastes like!"

>>50001336
What's wrong with Vampion style play?

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You know, all this arguing over themes and play styles has got me wanting to run a Vampions-styled 1e game just to piss you guys off.

These threads are so full of close-minded autism it's become hilarious. You're all acting worse than pic related, which is funny to me.

But at least the majority of this thread turned on Martin Ericsson and see him for the worthless jackoff oWoD fanboy he is.

>>50002058

You see, it is simply not "emotionally meaningful" to Celerity your enemies into orbit.

Also huh, what was the GET? I bet it was terrible! Let's find out! >>50000000

>>50002032
Consent is an accidental aspect of both actions.

You can consent to a fight in the form of an mma fight, but being mugged isn't equivalent to being raped.
You can consent to someone using your credit card, having your identity stolen isn't rape.


The fact that the kiss has no meaningful, persistent injury to the victim means it isn't even in the same ballpark as rape.

>>50002099

>has got me wanting to run a Vampions-styled 1e game just to piss you guys off.

Carmilla, why would that piss me off if I'm not actually in it? Just run something you like, who gives a fuck about whether you're doing it to spite people. That's petty shit. People on the internet don't matter.

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>>50002104
Since when did RPG's have to be emotionally meaningful? What the fuck is this bullshit?

That's the one thing I never understood about the WoD/CofD fandom. The settings were good up to a point until a certain edition ruined the settings (Revised for WoD, 2e for CofD) but the fans were always the worst.

And now the IP is in the hands of the worst stereotypical WoD fanboy ever. Pic related.

>>50002099
At least it's not 300 posts of people arguing over which version of Mage is better.

>>50002149
True, I am glad those arguments are gone for now.

>>50002104
>You see, it is simply not "emotionally meaningful" to Celerity your enemies into orbit

Seems someone never experienced emotionally meaningful fun.

>>50002182
>emotionally meaningful
>fun

Pick one

>>50002099
>Martin Ericsson
Who?

I'm thinking of running a core game on Halloween. Random guy gets drawn into a dark god manifesting on Earth. Now, I'm going to use a Mage with beefy Attributes for the dark god, but how much should I give it sphereswise?

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>>50002203
The current head developer of oWoD and head honcho at White Wolf. Works for Paradox Interactive, looks like a Goth Steven Segal, we all call him "Dracula" around here, which in my opinion, is an insult to Dracula.

Known for his rampant WoD fanboyism, his disdain for CofD, and being a generally unpleasant edgelord douchebag.

>>50002140
The fuckers on the internet really don't matter, but I dislike them anyway.

People like Martin Ericsson, Justin Achilli, and the other thematic purists make me ashamed of liking WoD and CofD at times.

>>50002199

Uhmmm no? Why not both? Is the idea of emotionally meaningful fun so hard to grasp under all that black rimmel?

>>50002278
It's not hard to grasp, it's just really hard to execute properly in an RPG.

Most of the time when WoD/CofD ST's try to be emotionally meaningful, they come off as pretentious and whiny. This applies to WoD and CofD developers as well.

It's not impossible to have emotionally meaningful fun, just extremely difficult.

Can you concentrate vitae in blood by removing the plasma from it?

Can you dry blood out and start a business selling ViTang packets to kindred, and advertise by sending some up with the kindred astronauts?

>>50002311
If it's your game, you can.

>>50002203

Creative director of White Wolf Publishing. Wants to bring back WoD in a big way and do a huge reboot of the series to bring it back to a first edition focus. Reception to him is frosty at best, and always has been, so I never really got the impression that the thread "turned" on him as much as everyone collectively groaned at having their worst fears confirmed, save for the few people who are still into what he's doing.

>>50002142

>Since when did RPG's have to be emotionally meaningful? What the fuck is this bullshit?

Whenever the boogieman RPG community du jour formed, clearly.

>>50002099
>You know, all this arguing over themes and play styles has got me wanting to run a Vampions-styled 1e game just to piss you guys off.

>But at least the majority of this thread turned on Martin Ericsson and see him for the worthless jackoff oWoD fanboy he is.

Oh the irony.

>>50002273

>People like Martin Ericsson, Justin Achilli, and the other thematic purists make me ashamed of liking WoD and CofD at times.

Then just stop paying attention to them. The shame you feel is entirely self-created. You're stressing yourself into your own persecution complex, when you could just play what you want to play. Sidebars and essays about playstyle can be dumb, but that shit doesn't matter either.

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>>50002203
oWoD head guy that confirmed that Onyx Path is nothing but the worst dregs of White Wolf leftovers and abused freelance writer wannabees (like half this thread). Obviously this makes this general very, very salty and they like to unironically shitpost about how horrible it is that he'll bring back old style WoD despite the whining that happened when nWoD came out.

Though to be fair most of the oWoD/nWoD people fucked off ages ago and the leftovers here are nothing but RPGnet.com and Onyx Path forum immigrants that lurked here once they found it the devs post here, defeating the entire purpose of the devs being free to say/do anything without being shat on by their degenerate tumblr obsessed fans. Oh and Aspel and xír fans of mentally ill rednecks like him.

Enjoy /CofD/

>>50002273
>People like Martin Ericsson, Justin Achilli, and the other thematic purists make me ashamed of liking WoD and CofD at times.

>Thematic purists
>Multiple splats and its a roleplaying game

Do you people sometimes read what you write?

>>50002400

Dont forget people who like to discuss wod without dealing with their awful forum.

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>>50002105
>Consent is an accidental

WOW ok

>>50002032
>That being said, while referencing the consequences of rape is one thing, if we look at it from a form of consent, then, sure, the Kiss would be non-consent. Unless you say that applying a Swooning condition while feeding non-violently (Blood and Smoke p. 95) is somehow consensual, which is... an odd thing to say, i suppose.

Absolutely irrelevant, if you agreed to be bit and there is no supernatural domination going on, its consensual if not, then no. End of discussion.

>>50002474
That is true, as an Onyx Path forum member, I can officially confirm that OPP's forums and the White Wolf forums that preceded it were both utter garbage.

Then again, WoD and CofD have one of the most toxic fanbases in tabletop gaming, right up there with WH40K.

>>50002409

So? Thematic purist exist in CoFD fanbase, just check the cesspool that is OPP forums.

As soon as you disagree with the genius vision if the devs they are at your throath or they get dismissive and say you must not get it.

Here too but at least here we can call those people faggots. And thats a right worth preserving.

>>50002498
Accidental as in unrelated to the central concept.

The second dictionary definition.

>>50002540
Sure if you put aside the fact that no-one is going to break your door down and beat you to death for playing the game however the fuck you want, which is the single use of the games and nothing else, making this entire autism about thematic puritanism on the devs and players and whatever absolutely moot.

I swear to god most of the people in this thread don't even play the game just shitpost.

>>50002374
Fair point

On an unrelated note, I'd like to go on the record of saying that Anime rocks while Marvel and DC suck! Fuck Marvel and fuck DC!

Oh, and to get back on topic, fuck Martin Ericsson and Justin Achilli while we're at it too!

It needed to be said.

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>>50002400
And what a glorious era it is. Very entertaining

>>50002560
True, but in all honesty, it is difficult to discuss games you like without said thematic puritans within said games' fanbase shitting up the discussion.

>>50002577
They're just as entitled to their dismally retarded opinion as you are, if you cant handle it discuss it with a select hugbox group or learn to handle dissenting opinions without causing a shitfit.

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>All this bitching and shitposting

I'm just going to keep drinking pic related and laughing at all the autism and fail on both sides of this stupid argument.

Although, I do agree on one thing. Fuck Martin Ericsson.

>>50002610
>Jameson Whiskey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOIU9ekSMk

>>50002610
>the autism and fail

Wow I'm back in 2005

>>50002624
And Martin Ericsson is back in 1996, so what?

>>50002610
Keep drinking, anon. You're gonna need it to get through these bullshit general threads.

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>>50002550
Anon Just meet Anon halfway on this. Feeding has mechanical and thematic tones. Although it is NOT rape.mostly not, but the argument is still there It's does have certain tones of non consent and abuse of power. Unless you're like building a Herd, and that a different problem

Now can both of you knock it off so we can get on with the thread

>>50002528
>if you agreed to be bit and there is no supernatural domination going on
But how would a mortal know that? It's prima facie a supernatural effect that is part and parcel of the Kiss. It's not as if the Kiss happened and THEN supernatural domination occurred. The supernatural compulsion is explicitly a part of the kiss, and therefore, non-consensual. Consenting to something under duress is not consent.

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>>50002600
Oh, I can handle it. I'm just sick of it, that's all.

>>50002653
>But how would a mortal know that?

Doesn't matter, its a game, if this happens everyone objectively knows.

How do you know everyone you ever dated (haha) wasn't a psychic mind controlling you? You couldn't can you, go report them for raping you and stop discussing this retarded obvious shit.

>>50002644
>And Martin Ericsson is back in 1996, so what?

Who? I was just making fun of how obviously new you are. You should try to lurk if you want to fit in and not shit up the site.

>>50002724
>if this happens everyone objectively knows.
>How do you know
You just answered your own question there, buddy. The game system knows. Which is to say even if the individual consented under psychic mind control, it would have been under psychic mind control (since it is reflexively true) and thus not consent without duress. Silly anon, I know logic is a bit difficult for retards, but get with the program, please.

>>50002400

>abused freelance writer wannabees

I take offense to that. I'm an abused freelance writer HAS-BEEN, thank you so much.

>>50002610
>laughing at all the autism and fail on both sides of this stupid argument.

>Proceeds to pick a side

Implying there are sides though, you're literally delusional if you personally feel offended by the direction something you're not vested in is going and happens to not adhere to your subjective taste and which has no effect on how you pursue your hobby eitherway.

What the fuck is wrong with you people, do you have fucking nothing to do? Do you not play games? Why are you here shitposting about stuff written 30 years ago by people you alternate between reviling and fellating? Why is the goddamn discussion always about some shit that normally should go into some ass blasted tumblr blog? There is on average 35-60 people in these threads and on average 20-50 posts actually about the fucking games and playing the fucking games in threads where the post limit is like 350 before the thread starts sliding.

My fucking god half this thread is one guy whining about "Why isn't an RPG setting universal for anything I can possibly conceive of".

>>50002766
>How does a mortal know
>Oh it knows
>Aha see I'm right

Try pulling your head out of your ass for a bit to let it breath and think over the stupid shit you write. Wont even go into an aftereffect making something that requires predetermined action.

Retroactive rape... Its like I'm really on Aspel's tumblr.

>>50002400
>oWoD head guy that confirmed that Onyx Path is nothing but the worst dregs of White Wolf leftovers and abused freelance writer wannabees

As much as i dislike Dracula, he is not wrong there.

>>50001988
You don't have to hunt spirits in werewolf the forsaken.

>>50002854
Don't be stupid. You said yourself that as a game, 'everyone objectively knows'. And then you say, oh, wait, they don't know, do they. You can't have it both ways.

>requires predetermined action.
Well, see, there it's interesting, because absolutely no where in game rules (or, really, in any fluff) does it indicate that the condition-causing effect of the kiss can be untangled from the act itself. Therefore, it is, as it is described, part and parcel of it. And thus, if a character agreed to it, it may have been under supernatural compunction, and thus not consensual at all

>>50002834

I only really post here to answer people's questions, like where to start with WoD or CofD or for giving STing and playing advice. I haven't run a game in a long while but I hope to soon.

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>>50002898
>You said yourself that as a game, 'everyone objectively knows'. And then you say, oh, wait, they don't know, do they.

The players know since its a game and this discussion is a theoretical hypothesis about what sexual psychological effect and law definition label a vague undefined act with unclear motives and circumstances has despite it being a game action holy shit why are you so goddamn dumb.

What the characters know or not is irrelevant because for one they are not real, and they're not the one shitposting about it on /tg/. This entire conversation is a waste of time and self fellating sophistry over a pointless topic with no possible resolution.

>the condition-causing effect of the kiss can be untangled from the act itself. Therefore

Cut them/convince them to cut themselves to bleed for you, done. The point is feeding not the conditions which are in no means supernaturally binding more so then having a crush or being bruised is even if it can (but by no means has to) originate from a supernatural source.

Why am I talking with you? You clearly don't even play the game just read a book and want to talk about your rape theories since apparently this is a traditional game for you.

>>50002724
>characters know they're in a game
>people like getting bitten by random strangers

ok Anon I know what your fetish is but that's not everyone's fetish.

>>50000000
Goddamn

>>50003036
>PLEASE CUT YOURSELF FOR ME

Dude seriously Not everyone wants your fetish.

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Is there any way to redeem Kindred of the East? I was talking a few threads ago about how WW's old Eastern game lines were the worst, but how do you make them less racist and orientalist?

>>50003110
No, its a half fucked bastard of Scion, Vampire and Exalted full of Hill Jr. shit. Forget it exists and go play L5R or Legend of Wulin or something.

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>>50003036
How the fuck do you go from blood play into just stab the bitch? That's an even worst position to take.

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>>50003124
I totally agree, especially on this point
>Exalted
That was literally the worst thing they ever did. I loved Hunter, and I loved Wraith and all of the oblique (and not so oblique...) references that permeated both those game lines and KotE was fucking ridiculous.

>>50003141
Who said anything about blood play or stabbing you selffagging numbnuts. I was giving you an example as a solution to how to entangle the effect from feeding, don't bite. You can sick a swarm of mosquitos with animalism on them and eat the insects afterwards if you're feeling extra liberal. But this is all irrelevant because the entire premise of the conversation is a guardedly convoluted series of assumptions based around "IS A VAMPIRE BITE RAPE?" Because you want to discuss rape instead of playing the game or anything actually even mildly relevant to playing the game.

>>50003141
>>50003164

he's raping you

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>>50003164
>It's not Rape if I Stab them

You need Jesus

>>50003164
>. You can sick a swarm of mosquitos with animalism on them and eat the insects afterwards if you're feeling extra liberal.

Ah yes, the Baali feeding technique. I had one of those in a game I played that never once left her Lair, she'd use Animal Ghouls or her Herd to feed; she was pretty awesome.

>>50003178
Only thing he is raping is common sense.

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>>50003164
Anon this is why woman don't like you. You get really defensive, and aggressive when people explain their points to you. And how you points effect them.

Also the open explanation that manipulation and not giving the chance to say No before putting the chloroform over their face is normal and acceptable. They also don't like that either

>>50003296
>You get really defensive, and aggressive when people explain their points to you

Blatantly stupid shit that has no bearing on reality or the actual mechanics of the game sure are points.

>Also the open explanation that manipulation and not giving the chance to say No before putting the chloroform over their face is normal and acceptable. They also don't like that either

Citation needed, also I admit I was amused when you wrote "normal and acceptable" as if you know what either of those were, now go back and giggle yourself to sleep on Discord.

Okay I'm finally ready, I think I have steeled my soul enough and found the courage. Can I get a link to the CofD Discord?

>every other RPG system has a million different stats on combat and physical actions exploring them in depth
>cool, it's okay we have had these forever
>CoD tries to expand mental stats so we get something more than the linear way mental stats are approached in many other systems compared to those system's combat stats
>no, wtf is this shit? It's awful!

The complaining about the mental aspects is like going to a DnD board and complaining why a level 1 guy can't beat a lvl 20 Terrasque. This is quite possibly the dumbest shit I have ever read even dumber than the guy who complained about 40k RPG a few weeks back.

>>50003408

Who complained about the mental stats? Recently the thread was about whether feeding was rape or not and that Dracula sucks

>>50003446
Ah shit I just skipped that part. Am scrolling through thread while traveling thought the entire thread was based on that one redundant thing that got too many responses.

As for the kiss thing, nah I don't think it's rape, but has some rape-like aspects for sure.

>>50003446
The price to pay once it got out that the devs used to post here.

Haha hey dave

Haha answer my obvious question I made up after a cursory read of the wikis dave

Haha read my writing dave

Haha put it in your book dave

Haha come on bro haha

>>50003496
All that Ha ha, I think someone's integrity is dropping.

>>50003342
>amused when you wrote "normal and acceptable" as if you know what either of those were

So You admit that you think Chloroforming people into having sex with you is totally cool. wow I was shitposting, but you actually said it. Lord get yourself to a shrink, that kind of behavior is going to land you in jail. actually you may like the impromptu forceful sexy times as normal and acceptable

>>50003384
Are you sure you are ready? No one will think less of you if you back out, anon. You have nothing to prove.
Just search "chronicles of darkness discord chat" on Google. It's one of the first results.

>>50003543
Typical reaction when anyone from OP posts here. The thirst is real.

>>50003705

>Making the Discord easily searchable on Google

Disgusting

>>50002891
It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

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>>50004155
Pic related.

Any reason that an Elder couldn't have a vampire wife who feeds on goats, that the Elder in turn feeds on?

Something other than Vampires can't feel love.

>>50004223
You've got to deal with the problems that'll arise from the Blood Bond VtR still has that, right? the Elder feels to the youngling.

But no, I'd imagine that's how most Elders deal with their problem.
Keep another Vamp on tap, and provide him with all the low-grade blood he'll need.

>>50004248
>Two kindred who are blood bonded to each other are called 'perverted' and it's illegal in most cities

Holy shit why is CofD lore so fucking dumb

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Would a Space Veiling spell be able to render someone incapable of perceiving space, distance, and direction causing them to suffer horrendous vertigo and no longer being able to actively move in any specific direction?

>>50004298
Where did you get that? I don't remember seeing that.

Would anyone be interested in helping to playtest my Mage the Ascension homebrew?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19qgldbpr75f7iuC97ELCwWk4vSKTrNnj9ayFvOr7A2Q/edit?usp=sharing

>>50004298
Because you're determined to see it that way.
Two Vampires fully bonded to each other would be horrendously dangerous to anything they perceived as trying to interfere with their relationship.

It's two murderous blood-hungry yandere corpses copulating and feeding off of one another and perpetually maintaining their codependant relationship.

Also it means that they can't be so easily manipulated by others. So Elders don't want it to happen. They want other Vampires to feel alone and on their own.

>>50004392
It's the aside on the Blood Bond page in VtR 2e. page 100.

>>50004298
>Holy shit why is CofD lore so fucking dumb

Because

>>50002400
>oWoD head guy that confirmed that Onyx Path is nothing but the worst dregs of White Wolf leftovers and abused freelance writer wannabees

>>50004406
Wow, you're right, the lore that only makes sense if every single Elder in the setting thinks the same way and requires all vampire government to be identical totally isn't fucking dumb.

>>50004406
>Two Vampires fully bonded to each other would be horrendously dangerous to anything they perceived as trying to interfere with their relationship.

As oppose as how 1 vampire would be horrendously dangerous to anything he perceive as danger to the vampire he is not mutually bond? Or how vampires are horrendously dangerous to anything they perceive as danger to their goals?

Vempires are horrendously dangerous.

>>50004485
1. The very section itself says it's not illegal in all jurisdictions
2. A mutual Blood Bond is in conflict with one of the game's primary themes, that the Beast means Vampires are always at each other's throats
3. Not every Elder needs think the same way. Just ones who are in positions of influence, and the rest merely need to not care enough to take it up with them
4. It doesn't even require Vampire "Governments", as much as those exist. A social rule held by Vampires, as placed in their minds by their Beast, is sufficient.

The Beast doesn't want to be beholden to another.
But ensuring that two Beasts are directed entirely at each other?
That's a perversion of its true nature, and nowhere near true "love".

>>50004562
Of course a Vampire's going to be dangerous to anything her perceives as a danger to a Vampire he's bound to.

However the counterpoint is that most Vampires won't want to get themselves into a Blood Bond, yet alone a mutual one.
It's putting your unlife in their hands.

Also yeah, they're going to be dangerous to any threat. But that's not really their Beast and Bond screaming in their ear to eat the threat alive.

>>50004359
>Would a Space Veiling spell be able to render someone incapable of perceiving space, distance, and direction
Yes

>causing them to suffer horrendous vertigo and no longer being able to actively move in any specific direction?
No. At least not with veiling. Non persistent conditions can be done with •• dots, tilts with ••• dots, persistent conditions and tilts are •••• dots.

You could still make the target 'shaken' or 'spooked' as reality seems to fold around them.

>>50004693
That's depressing.
At 3 dots you might as well just use Ban.

>>50004721
Sure. But why do you want to indefinitely cripple somebodies ability to navigate? It's kind of sadistic even by mage standards.

>>50004721
For what it's worth you can stick them with the 'lost' condition for the duration of the spell.

>>50004756
I never once mentioned permanent crippling.
I was meaning more temporarily veiling their sense of direction so for example they couldn't run away, or riddle you full of bullets.

>>50004569
>2. A mutual Blood Bond is in conflict with one of the game's primary themes, that the Beast means Vampires are always at each other's throats

Didnt we had a vampire sourcebook, around the time they were scrapping the bottom of the barrell about how vampires those relationships are a bad idea but full of ST opportunities? Strange dead love? Or its the changing breeds of requiem?

>>50004595
>Also yeah, they're going to be dangerous to any threat. But that's not really their Beast and Bond screaming in their ear to eat the threat alive.

No? Not if a vampire is bonded unidirectionally Tremere style?

>>50001543
There are a number of optional systems, and many of the books even come with suggested rules for playing a different style of game. Demon makes it a big part of the Storyteller's Guide.

>>50001605
Someone better tell that to Changeling: The Lost's corebook, page 245. Someone also better tell that to Hunter: The Vigil, or even the God-Machine Chronicle, which is entirely built around that idea. Using the setting doesn't mean using ALL of the setting.

>>50001895
>>50002032
The Kiss is pretty explicitly meant to be a sexual assault metaphor. It's a violation. It's got the effects of a roofie, right down to forgetting the moment itself. The kiss very much can be all of the things you imply it isn't. Well, I mean, except for the "months of uncertainty about being pregnant" part. But men and infertile women can also be raped anyway.
The Kiss isn't LITERALLY rape, no, it's metaphorically rape. Its subverting the will of another person for your own pleasures, at the cost of their health and wellbeing. It makes them feel feelings they may rather not feel.
Also, having your credit card stolen and getting into the Octagon don't get you an erection.
I mean, they don't get most people an erection, I don't want to kinkshame your armbar fetish.

>>50002336
>>50002104
>>50002142
>Since when did RPG's have to be emotionally meaningful? What the fuck is this bullshit?
ANY good RPG is going to be emotionally meaningful.
I don't mean "only REAL games count", I mean that if there is no emotional response to something, it's not really worth anything, even if the only emotion it illicits is the meaningless and nebulous emotion of "fun".
But to address the problem with Vampions: It's ignoring the intended theme and tone of the setting to play something it's not meant for. I dislike it for the same reason I'd dislike people trying to make DEEP stories in RISUS.

>>50002099
Knock yourself out. Why do you feel anyone will give a shit?

>>50004910

That sounds more reasonable. It'll probably have a mana cost associated with it (Assuming they're stricken with the 'lost' condition you're making them auto-fail their roll).

Making somebody unable to attack with a veiling spell may be pushing it. I might have it as a reach effect.

>>50002540
>>50002273
You should be ashamed. You don't actually like these games to begin with. You want them to be something completely different from what they are, and you insult anyone who actually cares about the themes that you don't.
Do you not realize that you're essentially a thematic purist? You're like an anti-purist. You insult anyone who doesn't play your way, the same as you keep bitching everyone else does. The difference is that we're not going up to you and telling you to fuck off, but that's what you keep doing.

>>50002273

I'm not sure I'd consider Martin a thematic purist.

>>50002409

Anon who doesnt believe in rpg purist, meet rpg purist

>>50005107
>But to address the problem with Vampions: It's ignoring the intended theme and tone of the setting to play something it's not meant for.

Now meet theme purist whinny fag

>>50005207

>implying they are the same anon

Aspel stop playing Implie: the implying you dont care about the themes of the game

Why is this thread filled with fucking idiots who seem like they haven't read the books, then bitch about how the game isn't the game they want it to be?

>>50005107

>There are a number of optional systems, and many of the books even come with suggested rules for playing a different style of game. Demon makes it a big part of the Storyteller's Guide.

The toolbox aspects of the game aren't gone, no, but saying that 2e is just as much of a toolbox as 1e was is ignoring the actual changes and influences on the 2e system and how it differs from 1e. The toolbox is there, it's just smaller now, thanks to taking pages from games that do not and cannot abide by a toolbox mentality.

>>50005356

Because you don't play WoD or CofD, silly, you read the wiki while you're sitting in the bathroom and then RP it out freeform on IRC or F-List.

DaveB is a fucking prick and the only thing he's good at is making people on the forums angry.

>>50005482
Go away, geckopirateship.

>>50005482

Eh, he is too mediocre as writter/game designer to be angry at him.

OPP keeps him around because he piss people off like dracula. They even give him his own little magical realm to write in deviant: the artening

>>50005482
>DaveB is a fucking prick and the only thing he's good at is making people on the forums angry

Tell us gecko, where old man dave touch you now?

>>50005672
Dave rejected your Mage writing submission then?

>>50005643

Not OP or Gecko, but I do have some beef with Dave's insistence that immortality is somehow inherently morally flawed just because he doesn't like it himself. And now he's in an argument about whether or not werewolves have souls and how that makes them play with the Astral.

I've also got beef with him saying that religious beliefs are a 'personality flaw' a few weeks back, but the mods already griped at him for it.

>>50005482
Agreed. He's shit. Mage 2e is unplayable garbage and he constantly badmouths my favorite 1e line.

So I picked up the BNS Werewolf book.

I actually don't hate the setting changes, and this is coming from not generally liking Werewolf. They evolved the politics and setup for the Tribes organically, looking at things that they would NEED to do to survive in a world with Gaia dead/hibernating, and evolving along the lines of their origin points (though the Stargazers are still a LITTLE too Orientalist). Haven't read all of it yet, but the big complaints people have about the changes? They're looking at it from a 'continuation of tabletop' point of view, and it's being written to facilitate LARP play first and foremost.

Overall, not terrible.

>>50005729
I didnt think Mage said that immortality was inherently mortally flawed, it just says 'in THIS SETTING immortality is not something you can really achieve while still remaining very human.'

I don't think Dave has insisted that immortality is inherently flawed, as an objective statement separate from talking about Mage, though. If I missed that he said that, fair enough.

Dude's allowed his opinions on stuff like religious beliefs, though. Game writers aren't faceless ciphers.

>>50005768

Don't they have the 'hating the Weaver is a really stupid position in the modern world' as its own bloc now?

>>50005741
Whats your favorite 1e line?

>>50005482

DaveB or any other writer or developer's job is not to change fundamental precepts of the setting or mechanics in order to conform to the headcanon of some whiny anonymous forum yahoos.

RPG are creative endeavors, and whether you like it or not, as the primary writer or developer on a great many projects, Dave's vision is the controlling vision.

Get over it or stop complaining and houserule whatever you like.

>>50005802
Changeling.

He complained about it stepping on all the other splats toes.

The dev of Mage complains that Changeling steps on everyone's toes.

He's a fucktard.

>>50005820
He doesn't constantly badmouth Changeling. You are full of shit. He WROTE stuff in the 1e Changeling line and is on 2e as well.

What he commented about is Changeling's coyness with 'but IS ARCADIA ARCADIA!?!?!' You're just too invested in Changeling to be able to take any sort of criticism of it without feeling like it's a personal attack on your self-worth, and you didnt even write the stuff.

Unless, like, you're actually Dave Hill or something, in which case, fuck off.

>>50005729
>And now he's in an argument about whether or not werewolves have souls and how that makes them play with the Astral.

That's mostly a rules and default setting issue, and considering he wrote or developed much of the setting and rules, and is heavily clued in behind the scenes, his comments are "fact," "not "opinion," regardless of whether you like his perspective of game design choice.

If you want a rpg that decidedly transhuman or where werewolves have human souls, you are free to write and market such a game.

>>50005856
Yeah nah.

>>50005859
>Forsaken 2e mentions werewolf souls
>the Mage guy says nuh uh
>HIS OPINION IS FACT YOU RETARD I LOVE THE TASTE OF DEVELOPER COCK

>>50005353
They are the same. I am a ~thematic purist~.
Again, you want the game to be something it's not. Have fun doing it, but don't bitch that other people do want that. Stop trying to tell me that I hate fun simply because I don't find what you like fun.

>>50005408
2e is more of a toolbox and I have no idea how anyone could see otherwise. No, you can't rip the Humanity system out of Vampire (actually you could, you just lose things you probably don't care for), but that's not what people ever meant when they said the game was a toolbox.

>>50005456
Same as you.

>>50005729
Immortality is flawed because it's literally keeping you stuck in the Fallen World instead of rising out of it. That's baked into the setting and pretty much always was. In fact, it's much easier to be a non-shitty immortal in Mage 2e than it was in 1e, where no spell could give you more than 200 years or something.

Also Werewolves don't have souls. Isn't the game explicit about that?

Also I don't see how he's wrong

>>50005800
Kinda. The Garou Nation became two things.

The Concordat of Stars, which is that portion, believes in advancing the Garou Nation through the acceptance of modern things, as stagnation is just another form of decay, and believe in a true 'balance' of the Triat. They also are pretty big on integrating the Fera into the defense and recovery of Gaia and keeping the Apocalypse from coming to a head. One of the big things in it is accepting the modernization of the world and using that to their advantage, with things like green technology companies run by Kinfolk and such things like that, looking at the modern green earth movements as an example of why humans should be fostered and guided.

The other group, the Sanctum of Gaia, is the 'old school Werewolf' methodology.

>>50005912
>Also Werewolves don't have souls. Isn't the game explicit about that?

The game is... iffy.

It does talk about werewolf souls, but it also talks a lot about how they're half-spirit, and generally says some odd stuff if you're looking at it from the Mage point of view. If they have souls, they're clearly not the same as human souls.

Why the fuck anyone cares about the Mage point of view on it, though, I don't know. Mechanically Werewolf gives no fucks about werewolves having souls or not, as far as I know, so it doesn't matter unless you are playing Mage.

Is life extension / effective immortality impossible in 2e? Doesn't seem too difficult to pull off.

To play devil's advocate one problem I foresee with immortality / life extension in the Mage setting is the implication that every individual mage can eventually become a gnosis 10 10th degree master.

That kind of power would trivializes most forms of storytelling.

>>50005951
>The game is... iffy.

No, it's really not. You just don't like the cannon setting and want a "canon" explanation that conforms to your preferences.

>>50005820
>>50005856
>>50005894
But Changeling did step on all the other splat's toes. Specifically, he felt that trying to shoehorn in "are the Arcadias the same? mmmmmaaaybe?" was to the detriment of both lines. And he's not really wrong.
That's not shitting on Changeling, and Mage doesn't actually step on anything else's toes, unless you're one of those dumbasses who thinks that Mages made all the other splats or whatever.

>Unless, like, you're actually Dave Hill or something, in which case, fuck off.
I'm pretty sure Hill agrees that both Arcadias being the same is stupid.

>>50005899
I'm pretty sure Dave and Stew talk to each other, and I'm pretty sure there's also probably at least some sort of Bible to reference. I can't remember Forsaken 2e mentioning Werewolves having souls in any explicit manner, but it's also still Dave's call on how Werewolves interact with the Astral. Which, I believe, is already in The Pack or something. Or maybe it was a 1e splat that's still canon.
I mean, that's part of why they brought the Bast into the Astral in that Beast-Mage-Changing Breeds crossover story.

>>50005951
>Why the fuck anyone cares about the Mage point of view on it, though, I don't know.
Crossover.
Also, the Soulless condition, I guess.

>>50005708
>Dave rejected your Mage writing submission then?

No, i just think the man is not very good at his job.

But they were taking submisions? Wasnt a close up mailing list like the anon in the last thread with hunter 2e?

>>50005994
It's hubristic, causes you to ignore Ascension, and inevitably makes you paranoid due to the upkeep. When it's not outright heinous (like the Tremere soul stealing).

>>50006004
And why do you think he's not good at his job?

>>50006004

They're always taking submissions, though they don't seem to send rejections.

>>50005995
The problem you run into is 'define soul'. Werewolf doesn't really care, but Mage has a fairly specific place in its cosmology for souls.

>>50005997
>. I can't remember Forsaken 2e mentioning Werewolves having souls in any explicit manner,

It does explicitly mention them. In fact I think idigam can turn human souls into spirit-like minions. Can they do that to werewolf souls as well?

>>50005951
>Why the fuck anyone cares about the Mage point of view on it, though, I don't know.

Because Mage superiority. Join the master splat we got cookies.

>>50006015
Try reading Mage 2e.

Missing rules (many spells require ephemera to partake in a Clash of Wills with no actual rules for them to do so, for example), contradictory rules (Abyssal Conditions suggest that you can Resolve them by Scouring only after their timer runs out, then in the same paragraph and the Condition writeups indicate you can do it whenever), inconsistent rules (Lasting is completely inconsistant, and there's no clear guideline of when something should or shouldn't be Lasting that's consistent with the spell writeups themselves). It's shit. Complete garbage.

>>50005994
>Is life extension / effective immortality impossible in 2e?

It can certainly be accomplished, but doing so requires terrible, horrible acts and/or the abandonment of your humanity. It's entirely consistent with Mage's primary themes of wisdom and hubris.

In the Mage setting, death is a fundamental truth (as evidenced by the Arcana), and trying to avoid the natural cycle is never easy and always ultimately "bad."

Mage, as a setting, is humanist in nature. However, many fans have transhumanist preferences, and demand the game to conform. I suggest house rules or playing Eclipse Phase.

>>50006088
>(many spells require ephemera to partake in a Clash of Wills with no actual rules for them to do so, for example),

Werewolf has rules for that, did they miss them out of Mage?

>>50006088
Oh, you're nitpicking minor issues as if the game were unplayable. I've read actually unplayable games. I'm unfazed.

>>50006105
Without bothering to look it up, I'm pretty sure it's Rank+Power.

>>50006059
>'define soul'.

It's more about defining the *human* soul, which is precisely why Dave discussed how entities with Integrity, Wisdom and, to a lesser extent, Satiety, define the Temenos, while everyone else is merely a visitor.

>>50005912

Aspel stop thinking every anon is the same anon, just chill and have your daily dose of DaveB cock juice to relax.

Do people regularly die of old age in their mage games? It doesn't seem like a problem that would come up often.

I was in a 1e mage game that lasted for like a year in real time and like 10-12 years game time. People were maxing out their character sheets long before the game ended.

>>50006112
They're rules required to play the game. If a game is missing rules that it requires to play, that makes it unplayable.

I'm not a d20 player. A game isn't flawless just because I can house rule it into submission.

If you have to house rule it, it is flawed by definition. You don't have to fix what isn't broken.

>>50006091
Mage IS transhumanist. Just... in a very different way than Eclipse Phase. In Mage, it's all about shucking off the gross matter of the Fallen and becoming one with the universe. Futzing around and twiddling with how to be cooler and better while you're still a meat Popsicle is avoiding the actual transhumanism of becoming a grossly incandescent energy being.

Man, I packed too many references into that paragraph.

>>50006121
I don't know where you got the impression that I'm saying people are the same anon. I was saying that the poster in question likely plays the game no more than I do.

>>50006120
Do Mages define the Temenos? I mean, they have their own little astral shits, but that feels more like it's meant to be a reflection of some bygone era, not the same as the celebrities and cultural memes.

>>50006153
They're not required to play, though. They're things that might come up. They're also things that might come up that are easy to figure out. *Every* game requires houseruling, unless you never allow anything that can't be perfectly described in the gameworld.

>>50006147
>Do people regularly die of old age in their mage games?

Generally, no. In fact, Dave has repeatedly commented on the issue and expressed how odd he finds the whole immortality discussion in the context of people actually running chronicles.

I recall that he even changed some of the Life Attainments because during early development because he believed granting a PC "longer life" was so useless as to be unfair and unbalances.

>>50006175
>Do Mages define the Temenos?

No, humans define the Temenos. Mages just possess the tools and experience to be very good Astral explorers.

>Mage IS transhumanist

It really isn't. Just because you're a human with superpowers does not make a game transhumanist. The quest and difficulty in maintaining one's fundamental humanity is a core precept of Mage (and most other CofD games). The overall setting emphasizes attaining, maintaining or regaining humanity, not trying to transcending it.

>>50006088
>Abyssal Conditions suggest that you can Resolve them by Scouring only after their timer runs out, then in the same paragraph and the Condition writeups indicate you can do it whenever

Your reading comprehension is shit. Mage has problems but this one is just you being thick.

I'll give you Lasting, though. The book looks like it is going to give a nice clear description with that boxed text, but ends up just being annoyingly vague when you try and match it against the spells themselves.

>>50006175
I played a Spirit-focused Thyrsus. It was required.

And there's a difference between including detailed underwater basketweaving rules and including rules that are actively referenced in the text but don't actually exist, like what I listed.

If the game says "Spirits must Clash of Wills to affect the caster," there needs to be rules for how Spirits have Clash of Wills, given they have neither Arcana (or whatever the meta-name is for Discipline-like abilities) nor Power Stat.

It's a major problem with 2e in general. Constantly referencing rules that don't exist. Vampire did it with foot chases, for example. But it's far frequent in Mage.

>>50006214
Then he's pretty delusional. The search for immortality is fundamental to stories of mages and wizards.

I mean, I had a group with a mage in it and that mage's long-term goal (1e, so it wasn't an aspiration or anything) was immortality.

The search for immortality drives these sort of stories. It's not strange that players want it. Players are driven by what's cool or interesting as much or more than what's mechanically "best."

>>50006325
>Then he's pretty delusional. The search for immortality is fundamental to stories of mages and wizards.

No, it's not.

>>50002142
>Since when did RPG's have to be emotionally meaningful?
When WW's target audience became literal human wreckage. I haven't been to the OP forums in years but last time I checked they had threads hundreds of pages long bitching about how crazy and broken down they were.

>>50006015
>It's hubristic, causes you to ignore Ascension

>Implying every mage cares about ascension

>>50006015
>And why do you think he's not good at his job?

This
>>50006088

Though i wouldnt call it garbage, just meh. It didnt wow me as a fan of mage to invest in the 2nd edition and i found it disjointed at time.

Same with his other works, i know that is difficult to see what is 100% his work and which he just contribute but seers of the throne sourcebook left me cold as is not really useful unless a global game is your thing. I felt the ministries as to big picture for the small picture theme of nwod.

Same with other books

>>50005997
Dave himself made the Arcadia question more obtrusive and annoying. The man is a pendulum, he'll push something until people start complaining then he'll 'fix' it by going to the other extreme.

>>50006325
>The search for immortality is fundamental to stories of mages and wizards.
While it's not uncommon, it's hardly fundamental.
And it's almost always a cautionary tale.

>>50006282
>If the Paradox Condition is allowed to lapse, the Abyss enters the mage’s Pattern. While the Abyss is part of the mage’s Pattern, it appears in her Nimbus. Every spell she casts is tainted by the Abyss and gains a Paradox die even if she does not attempt to Reach as part of the spell. Conditions that resolve this way grant an Arcane Beat. At this point, the only way for the mage to remove the taint from her Pattern is to Scour it out, similar to Pattern Scouring for Mana as described on p. 87. Removing a Paradox Condition in this manner deals a single point of lethal damage to the mage, but she does not gain Mana from the Scouring.

Sounds like you have to let it lapse to Scour.

>Resolution: An Abyssal Entity uses the Condition to Manifest, the mage Scours the Condition from her Pattern, or the mage allows the Condition to lapse after the specified time.

But you can also Resolve them by Scouring. It's contradictory.

>>50006398
I remember him saying that the two are entirely distinct, the use of the same name twice was a gigantic mistake, and he was greatly annoyed by people who wanted it to be otherwise.

>>50006325
>The search for immortality is fundamental to stories of mages and wizards.

It's most definitely not "fundamental." There are some stories and myths, and it's your preference. However, that doesn't mean that Mage has to accommodate everything, particularly where it might conflict with other setting priorities.

In any event, mages who pursue immortality (and most anything else) are entirely consistent with the default setting. The real issue than bother some people is that immortality cannot be achieved without great suffering, usually to innocents, and /or the relinquishment of your fundamental humanity. This is how the game prioritizes hubris and wisdom and that power often has a terrible price.

>>50006274
Transhumanism isn't about abandoning humanity, it's about redefining it. Mage does that. It's the entire point of Legacies. But Mage does those Transhumanist things as a means to an end, as opposed to the end themselves.

>>50006214
It's useful to know how the setting treats that kind of thing for NPCs.

>>50006282
I've never understood everyone's problem with Lasting. It seems clear enough to me, and it's intentionally meant to allow flexibility in interpretation.

>>50006298
Spirit's power stat is Rank.
"Foot chase" doesn't mean the mechanic of chasing people, it simply means running after someone. Vampire lacks detailed rules on chases that 1e had (also falling), but that example isn't why it's bad that it misses it. (It's bad because the rules were better than coming up with some roll off on your own).

>>50006325
It's not fundamental by a long stretch, and as someone else pointed out, it's often a cautionary tale. Liches are the bad guys.
Your player didn't need rules for a long term goal; in fact, with rules it would have been simple to achieve. "If it has stats we can kill it" and all that, but applied to goals.

>>50006438
>It's the entire point of Legacies.
Some legacies.
Others are about hunting down the cracks in the world, or being really good with High Speech.

>>50006398

Dave was neither the developer of Changeling nor Mage when the "Arcadia Question" was a hotly debated issue, and thus the resolution of the issue was not under his control.

However, when Dave became Mage developer he wanted to finally put the issue to rest. I wish this was done with far more contentious matters.

>>50006414
You can scour it before it lapses, or use other resolution methods. Once it's lapsed, though, you can ONLY scour it out. Hence:
>At this point, the only way for the mage to remove the taint from her Pattern is to Scour it out

>>50002142
>Since when did RPG's have to be emotionally meaningful? What the fuck is this bullshit?

Are you one of those "videogames should be pure entertainment" idiots, too?

If you want to argue that WoD never had emotional meaning until Revised, then I'm profoundly curious to see your reading of Wraith, or even Vampire's hamfisted "a Beast I am lest a Beast I become" mantra. Personal horror and emotional drama have been there from day one; I'm sorry you missed the bus.

>>50006421
Dave says a lot of shit. His contributions to Imperial Mysteries and Dancers in the Dusk tied Changeling Arcadia and Mage Arcadia together far more tightly than anything else in the series.

>>50006376
Not caring about ascension means failing to live up to your potential, and doing so by making yourself immortal is saying "fuck nature, I decide when I go". Death is a natural part of living, and the only way to avoid it is to become beyond both Death and Life itself.

That poster is also not really that on the money. In fact, they're kind of wrong, and making mountains of molehills where they're right. You may not be wowed, but a lot of people love 2e. It fixes a lot of the problems people had with 1e.

>>50006398
>>50006421
The Arcadia question was a big thing before Dave even joined White Wolf.
I also fail to see how he went in the other extreme, and I have no fucking idea why people are so incensed that Arcadia and Arcadia are different. If you *really* want to run that crossover, then so be it. But that kind of bullshit is exactly why people bitch so hard that Mage "is the truth behind everything" and that there's mage supremacy. LESS of that should be a good thing, shouldn't it?

>>50006438
>I've never understood everyone's problem with Lasting. It seems clear enough to me, and it's intentionally meant to allow flexibility in interpretation.

It's annoyingly fuzzy when you look at the actual sample spells that are Lasting, or can become Lasting via Reach.

>>50006469
>I wish this was done with far more contentious matters.

Like what?

>>50006489
>I also fail to see how he went in the other extreme
He outright said the True Fae are supernal gods in Imperial Mysteries and only backed down on that when people yelled at him.

>>50006482
I'm generally going to take the words he says by himself over what's said in books he didn't entirely write.

Especially given in both 2e materials such references are entirely absent.
As far as 1e goes now, a shitload of stuff is non-canon.

I mean, there was a gigantic section in the 1e Free Council book where they tried to rationalise and facitonalise the Council over their responses to the Vulgar/Subtle divide for spells.

>>50006489
>"is the truth behind everything"
Which is why they tried so hard in Mage 2e to remove that completely by having "surface information" on any light Mage Sight scrutiny reveal whether something is Supernal in origin or effect.

>>50006473
That was my preferred interpretation, too.

The problem, then, becomes that Containing is always better than Releasing, given that any success on a Released Paradox roll can effectively null your spell at best or nuke your friends and summon an Abyssal at worst.

Whereas even if you fail to Contain, you can ditch the Condition instantly, no matter how much Paradox you invoked or how much you Reached, for a single Resistant Lethal damage.

One option is too brutal to ever take, and the other option makes Paradox a non-issue entirely. As long as you don't kill yourself with the Containing roll (unlikely with Wisdom dice pools), you can Reach 20 times and get the same result as if you Reached twice.

>>50006520
>I'm generally going to take the words he says by himself
>The Acadia question is meaningless because whether they're different Arcadias or the same Arcadia or a parallel Arcadia or past or future Arcadia keeps changing. The Gods of Thistle keep coming regardless.
As I said Dave says a lot of shit

How about needing to scour once for every Paradox success you failed to compensate for with your Wisdom roll?

That a simple point of resistant damage seems inconsequential.
2-4 points? Now THAT'S punishment.

>>50006438
>I've never understood everyone's problem with Lasting. It seems clear enough to me, and it's intentionally meant to allow flexibility in interpretation.
Flexible interpretations on mechanics are bad.

It breeds a lot of misdirected expectations and bickering between players and Storytellers.

Player A takes a spell expecting its effects to be Lasting. Storyteller has it wear off three seconds later due to no Duration factor. Player gets pissed.

Consistent rules make things run smoother for everyone.

>>50006585
I've always gone with if the change occasioned is not a direct result of the casting of the spell, then the effect is lasting.

So the claw marks in the door don't go away because the spell ended.
You don't de-age because someone's stopped speeding up your clock.
And the 500 pounds of steel doesn't change back to its original shape, because it's no longer a liquid.

>>50006489
>That poster is also not really that on the money. In fact, they're kind of wrong, and making mountains of molehills where they're right. You may not be wowed, but a lot of people love 2e. It fixes a lot of the problems people had with 1e.

I dont agree point for point for with the poster but with general complain that some rules are not clear.

Good for you? What do you want me to say? I think he is mediocre at his job, and that getting angry for his assinine internet persona is pointless.

If you enjoy his work good for you, i dont.

>>50006620
That's probably how it should be.

However, that's not the picture that the example spells paints.

Healing spells are Lasting, for example, though the healing is the direct result of a spell.

Unmaking spells are also Lasting (as near as I can tell).

Regeneration is a healing spell (and healing spells are directly called out as Lasting), but for some arbitrary reason it is not Lasting.

And how do you decide if a spell can be made Lasting, but isn't by default? There's a cost listed (Mana +2 Reach), and some example spells can do it, but there's no clear indication for when to allow it and when not.

>>50006667
>Dev bothers to interact with the player base.
>assinine internet persona!

>>50006679
>However, that's not the picture that the example spells paints.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Regeneration and Healing spells are a pain in the ass to try and reconcile with any internally consistent system of Lasting effects.

>>50006667
>I think he is mediocre at his job

If Dave is mediocre at his job because there are some rule ambiguities in Mage, then I don't know a single game author or developer ever who's actually good at their job.

The test of Dave's competence is whether people are willing to pay money to buy the products he develops or authors. Given his extensive CofD prolificacy and obvious confidence by TPTB in WW and OPP, including developing a new game line, it appears your opinion about Dave is part of distinct minority.

While we're discussing issues with rules, does anyone have the updated Mage PDF with the errata that they're willing to share?

>>50006811
Such a thing does not exist for one such as you.

>>50006794
I ran 1e for years, and I never had these issues with missing and contradictory rules. Lack of balance, sure, but I don't really care about balance in this sort of game.

Fucking up the rules isn't a universal truth of RPGs.

>>50006681
>>assinine internet persona!

Well the anon who initially complained about DaveB was ranting about how assinine his (or your) internet persona is on the opp forums.

>>50006466
No, the entire point of a Legacy, period, is to better shape your soul towards a specific context. It's transhumanist in the same way that upgrading your meat or digitizing your consciousness is.

>>50006475
This annoys me because it implies there's only one way for something to be entertaining. It also implies "entertaining" isn't emotionally meaningful in and of itself.

>>50006502
Fuzzy doesn't bother me. I like fuzzy. I think more things should be fuzzy.

>>50006519
I'm pretty sure that's not quite how it happened, and it's not like he was the sole writer of Imperial Mysteries. Think of the 2e changes not as Dave "backing down", but as the direction of the games as a whole going "whoops, we fucked up".

>>50006845
>Fucking up the rules isn't a universal truth of RPGs.

It's impossible to totally emulate life, no less superpowers and similar abilities, with a mechanical system in an rpg. Ambiguities and problems always exit, compromises need to be made, word count often prevents effective explanations, and CofD is hardly the worst offender.

I would note that Dave has promised a Mage FAQ. I hope that it is released soon and resolves at least some of the issues and complaints.

>>50006880
>shape your soul towards a specific context
As great as it is, a different shaped soul-container doesn't change the human condition any more than your existing Supernal powers do.

>>50006880
>I'm pretty sure that's not quite how it happened
You're wrong. He waded into the Imperial Mysteries thread on rpg.net to confirm that this is exactly what he meant when he wrote that. The explicit linking of the True Fae to the Supernal Gods was Dave's idea and he moved towards it with every Changeling book he worked on. It's not a 'we fucked up', the whole thing was Dave's fault.

>>50006906
>OP releasing anything in a timely manner
haha no

>>50006942
>explicit linking
I've read Imperial Mysteries, and it's far from explicit in that respect.

>>50006942
>>OP releasing anything in a timely manner

In fairness to Dave, the Mage FAQ is not required, nor is he being paid to write it (or the other promised material such as the anticipated Legact and antagonist material). He's authoring a FAQ on his own time and dime, and it's unsurprising that real life and paid work will be a priority.

>>50006973
Yeah it's real subtle how what's being described in Imperial Mysteries is the True Fae from Equinox Road.

>>50007013
If you don't put out errata for your badly written rules you are less professional than games workshop

>>50006973

Indeed. Vague story hooks that were little more than fan service in a super-tier book are now "explicit linking."

>>50007025

The errata is out (although no one has yet shared the new PDF).

A FAQ is a far longer and broader endeavor, and given the nature of creative thaumaturgy as a mechanic, more akin to a small book.

>>50007060
Because needing errata (I'm sorry, a "faq") on par with Exalted 2.5e is a sign of competent writing.

>>50007060
Creative Thaumaturgy was laid to bed back in Tome of Mysteries, that we need another book means Dave fucked up.

>>50006794
>If Dave is mediocre at his job because there are some rule ambiguities in Mage, then I don't know a single game author or developer ever who's actually good at their job.

Is not just that for me. From the top of my head (its been a while since i read 2nd mage), terms were used before they were explained (bad arranging of chapters), the missed opportunity with wisdom. Werewolf got a overhaul to the mechanic that was unique to the line while mage got a cop out. The same system with a sticky note that said "is more vague now so you can do it yourself"

Too much crammed into starting PCs which makes a pain in the ass to teach it to new players. It wasn't garbage but neither it wasn't truly good imo.

And just because people are willing to throw money at it doesn't meant is necessarily good. Lots of shitty or mediocre things are popular.

>>50007152

There was no possible way everyone was going to be totally satisfied with creative thaumaturgy and similar matters given the limited word count in the book. It's not an errata issue, but the inability to tackle so many permutations with so little space. A FAQ (and supplements) should ameliorate this entirely anticipated, yet unavoidable, problem.

There are no doubt issues in the Mage mechanics that require greater clarification. However, these issues exist precisely because the mechanics are so ambitious and comprehensive. It's also one of the primary reasons for Mage's very strong fan base, a few disgruntled anons notwithstanding.

>>50007013
>and antagonist material

What antagonist?

>>50003146
>>Exalted
>That was literally the worst thing they ever did.
Hi Dracula

>>50007251
>the missed opportunity with wisdom

Explain?

>>50007280
>What antagonist?

Dave indicated quite a while ago that he intended to releases material on the Mad, liches, reapers, etc.

>>50005729
He said Werewolves don't have HUMAN souls, and therefore don't have access to the Temenos, which is the collective soul of HUMANITY.

They pretty clearly have some sort of soul, because they can access the Anima Mundi. It just sprouts off of a different branch from the one that split off into the Temenos (and which in turn splits into billions of Oneiroi).

>>50007287
>Explain?

uhmm, the rest of the paragraph?

>>50007251
>Werewolf got a overhaul to the mechanic that was unique to the line while mage got a cop out. The same system with a sticky note that said "is more vague now so you can do it yourself"

I get they remove the strict hierarchy of hubris from 1st because it was problematic but the only thing they did with the mechanic was make it more vague with one of either 2 interpretations. Either the ST has to make a judgement call looking at the example sins. Or some people argue that one should make their own hierarchy of hubris which has its own problem (path of the thing i was gonna do anyway).

While hubris is supposedly main theme of the game and the reach system does a decent job tempting the players, the hubris mechanic itself is fells neglected.

I havent ST the game enough to see if this is true event though it sounds true on paper.

>>50006538
>That was my preferred interpretation, too.
>The problem, then, becomes that Containing is always better than Releasing, given that any success on a Released Paradox roll can effectively null your spell at best or nuke your friends and summon an Abyssal at worst.
>Whereas even if you fail to Contain, you can ditch the Condition instantly, no matter how much Paradox you invoked or how much you Reached, for a single Resistant Lethal damage.
>One option is too brutal to ever take, and the other option makes Paradox a non-issue entirely. As long as you don't kill yourself with the Containing roll (unlikely with Wisdom dice pools), you can Reach 20 times and get the same result as if you Reached twice.

>>50007301
>Dave indicated quite a while ago that he intended to releases material on the Mad, liches, reapers, etc.

Cool!

>>50006088
There are rules for ephemera to partake in Clash of Wills. They roll Rank, or Rank+Influence is the thing that's Clashing is an Influence.

I am admittedly remembering this from Werewolf's 2e core.

>>50007251
>terms were used before they were explained (bad arranging of chapters)
Doesn't this happen in literally every White Wolf+OPP book? I've seen newcomers bitching about that for every gameline I can think of.

Almost finished with Beast, did they decide to just rewrite Hunter: The Vigil from the eyes of the monsters?

Heroes read just like hunters. I feel cheated. Also, the info we have on Deviant sounds like the Cheiron Group got its own gameline of failed experiments.

Why rewrite Hunter twice? No. make that three times with the 2nd edition coming out.

>>50007542
If OP had good management they wouldn't have spread a couple dozen writers across six gamelines.

>>50006538
Containing is an issue because it hurts. Also, Reaching 20 times over your safe limit means more Paradox dice, which means more chance of gibbing yourself when you try to contain it.

>>50006585
>Flexible interpretations on mechanics are bad.
I disagree. And Mage especially is a game that is going to have flexible mechanics regardless. I mean, how are you going to get a better rule of thumb for when something is Lasting besides "if it leaves a change on the world even after the Duration ends"? I feel like the situation you're describing isn't really going to happen without discussing what the spell does first, since "discussing the spell effects" is the first step to creating it.

>>50006667
As with the other anons, I don't see him as asinine nor do I understand how he's mediocre. He's written something better than many other games I've seen in the same bracket.

>>50006679
Unmaking is Lasting because you've literally destroyed something.
Regeneration's effects are lasting. You don't unheal. But you don't constantly have Regeneration for the rest of your life once its cast. There's no clear indicator for a lot of things. Ostensibly you could up the Duration and then pay 2 Reach to make *any* spell Lasting.

>>50006871
That anon is also a whiny person with a grudge.

>>50006845
Are you fucking kidding me?

>>50007602
>more chance of gibbing yourself when you try to contain it.
Only to a certain point. You always roll Wisdom. The roll isn't modified by Paradox dice. You take Bashing damage up to the amount of Paradox dice you had, and you're unlikely to do serious damage to yourself with 7 dice of Bashing. That averages out to 2 or 3 hits.

>>50007602
>how are you going to get a better rule of thumb for when something is Lasting besides "if it leaves a change on the world even after the Duration ends"?
The problem is that the spells in the book don't abide by this guideline. You can't have Creative Thaumaturgy without solid standards in place.

>>50007602
>Regeneration's effects are lasting
You want to know how I know you haven't ever read the book?
>Most mages cast this spell with a Duration of Indefinite, but some either can’t or don’t — keeping a target dependent upon her magic for brain function or a healthy, fully-functional body is a powerful bargaining chip. When the spell expires, the regenerated tissues wither away in less than a minute.

>>50007602
>As with the other anons, I don't see him as asinine nor do I understand how he's mediocre. He's written something better than many other games I've seen in the same bracket.

I dont think he is asinine just, responding that getting angry to his internet persona because one consider it asinine is pointless.

>>50007602
>He's written something better than many other games I've seen in the same bracket.

You mean 2nd? Because Werewolf 2nd was better done and i havent read vampire so maybe is worse than mage. Beast is 2nd Or 1st?

You mean RPGs in general? Thats another discussion entirely.

>>50006928
It kind of literally does.

>>50006942
Dave didn't write the original Changeling books that tied Changeling to Mage Arcadia. He went along with it, and then he realized it was shitty and to the detriment of both games. If he's the biggest reason for that, so what? How does that change anything? It was a dumb idea and I'm glad they're changing it, even if I'd prefer a more vague answer (without the wink-wink, nudge-nudge of 1e).

>>50007014
And unless Equinox Road is the corebook, no.

>>50007025
>>50007100
>>50007152
The amount of exaggeration people have about Mage 2e is ridiculous.
Also, most games have erratas and FAQs.

>>50007251
>>50007475
Bitching that terms are used without being defined first is the go-to nitpick of people who don't have more valid reasons to dislike White Wolf games.
2e has a Glossary. A book doesn't need the glossary to be the first thing in it.

>>50007814
>Bitching that terms are used without being defined first is the go-to nitpick of people who don't have more valid reasons to dislike White Wolf games.
>2e has a Glossary. A book doesn't need the glossary to be the first thing in it.

I didnt meant terms as fluffy names that i can look up in the glossary. I meant mechanical terms that are expanded before explained.

The one i can remember most was how praxies was mentioned in the first 2 or 3 chapters, with merits or thing that modify them without explaining what the fuck they are until the magic (i think) chapter. And saying "all WW/OPP do the same" is not an excuse for continuing that stupid arranging of chapters. Or OPP order an idiot quota their author must follow through ?

And yes the book should need to explain the mechanical term first. After reading the book i would say the order should had been 1 (with lexicon included), 5 (dramatic system), 4 (Magic), 2, 3 (chargen), 8 and etc.

Has there ever been a scenario centered around shit just breaking loose in the WoD?

Been interested in the The Secret World setting recently, and the premise of that seems to be that every conspiracy and dark legend has basically been timed to the same clock. And the spring on the clock basically twanged and everything started happening simultaneously.

>>49993400
What We Do in the Shadows and the upcoming film We're Wolves.

Both are comedies, but my god is Shadows perfect. It's basically what would happen if a bunch of stereotypical WoD players were actual goddamned vampires and werewolves. It's got a good bit of blood, some horror and dread, and a lot of dry, at times rather melancholy humor. Being a vampire can really be kind of sad and lonely you know?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxt2DSWS_eI

>>50008278
>Time of Judgement

>>50008306
Time Of Judgement is more just ending scenarios to specific settings. I'm talking specifically about a thing where the whole cloak and daggers thing that the entire WoD is built around goes right out the fucking window. As a game setting.

>>50007542
Heroes are the kind of Hunters that people shouldn't play. Also, Beast is kind of just a hogepodge of ideas that could be better but are too bland and unfocused.

>>50007698
It's a big book and expecting people to memorize the whole thing is childish. I had assumed "Regeneration" was a spell akin to how it is in Final Fantasy; i.e. you heal damage over time.

Also, one of the points of Creative Thaumaturgy is that you shouldn't be limited to the rules, because they can't cover every eventuality.

>>50007787
I mean RPGs entirely. I would agree that Werewolf 2e is probably the biggest and best improvement.

>>50007962
Plenty of books have character creation before explaining what the actual mechanics are.

>>50008278
The oWoD end-of-line books had a lot of that, but there were also World Of Darkness Revealed and World of Darkness Destroyed Shards in the nWoD book Mirrors.

Quick question: if someone wanted to kill a specific Vampire, how terrible of an idea of it would it be to purposefully drink their blood and become one step blood-bonded to them? From what I've read, stage one causes intense feelings of love OR hate, and causes the thrall to be subconsciously drawn to the master. If I had a vendetta against a particular vampire, could I drink their blood--perhaps without even their knowledge--and use that to intensify my drive to kill them? Obviously any further draughts of blood would be disastrous, but I like the idea of someone being so consumed with a single-minded desire to kill their enemy, that it's almost a kind of slavery. Bloodlust and blood lust. Would it even work with a mortal? Essentially turning themselves into a ghoul for the chance to kill their target Kindred?

>>50008585
It's a Gambit. Possible, but really dangerous

>>50008585
>>50008699
>Become blood-bonded to mortal foe
>Use it to pursue them
>Come across someone else trying to kill the person
>Take them out because you're the only one who's going to kill senp- AH GOD DAMN IT.

Do you think Geist is "fighty" enough to use for a shonen style game? I'm thinking of using it as the splat for my Ancient Greece game after playing as humans for a bit and was wondering if the powers were interesting enough to be used for old school fighting tournaments

>>50008740
That could also be pretty interesting too, though! To be SO obsessed with killing a vampire you will even hunt down their other enemies to make sure they can't beat you to it. Maybe your target would even be of your intentions. For you, this is the most important story of your lifetime, and no matter what it WILL end in one of you killing the other. For them, maybe they only see you as an occasionally beneficial nuisance.

>>50008789
Uh... it wouldn't be my first choice?
You'd be better off using Mage for that.

>>50008585
You don't choose how you feel, and the hate comes from the fact that you love them. The mechanical effect is that you're obssessed with them and addicted to them. You can't harm them. Resisting their blood is difficult.
So no, it's a dumb plan.

File: WoD Power Levels.png (314KB, 2246x612px) Image search: [Google]

314KB, 2246x612px

I used to think Tremere was cool as shit, but then I realized

>dude could've gone Archmage if he didn't join in the hubris of the rest of the Order Of Hermes but becomes watered down vampire mage (could've been stronger than any vampire)
>Only managed to diablerize Saulot because Saulot wanted him to (thus why Saulot of all people ends up showing up the most in the four VtM Gehenna scenarios being the main savior of two of them)
>gets punked by Tzimisce in one of the Gehenna scenarios despite the winning record his clan has on Tzimisce's

>>50008789
Geist would probably be best for doing on that is Jo-Jo's Bizarre Adventure perhaps, though I'd wait for Geist 2e to come out so there's more concrete rules and feeling of a second entity with you.

>>50008843
>Mixing new and old

>>50008843

This pic has been around for ages now and I have to applaud whoever the troll is that created it fir creating the Platonic ideal of shitposting.

>>49952308
>>49952602
just wanted to say thanks to the anons who helped me with the werewolf. Ran my Halloween - Mission today, made my party jump at ghosts for an hour giving them little notes with sometimes contradicting observations, then let a werewolf burst through the window just when the paranoia peaked.
He chased them a little, slowed by a few shotgun rounds, a staircase breaking under his weight and an exploding fire extiguisher. The Characters finaly escaped through a secret passage in the castle things were playing out in.
The werewolf got exactly two hits off the whole mission, one to oneshot the NPC ghoul, and one to take 5 Health levels from a PC sending him flying down a store. The look on the players face was priceless when I described the wounds of the werewolf closing each time.

Hey is there anything special about the children of Changelings? Do they have some sort of powers or are they just human?

And before any mentions yes I'm aware that Changelings normally can't have kids.