Why didn't Elrond just shove Isildur into the lava?

>>49942278
>elf making a Strength check
go back to /tv/

>>49942278
It would've sparked a race war.

>>49942947
Also we wouldn't have had a story. Same reason the Eagles couldn't do shit.

>>49942278

I don't have my copy of Tolkien's letters with me, but I could have sworn one of them mentions that, and essentially says that if the two of them fought, Isildur would have won.

>>49943036
There was actually a reason the Eagles couldn't do shit. They would've had to fly over Orc lands, which meant flying over heavily guarded fortresses with archers that could shoot them down. Also something about pissy farmers who wanted to shoot the Eagles down.

>>49943185
Also, the cracks of doom were in a hole bored into the side of the mountain, meaning that they couldn't just drop it in from the sky (which would carry its own risks anyway). They would have had to land on that entrance and have someone rush in there to hurl the ring into the fires.

Also, nazgul and sauron's spooky eye would have made it far more risky than it had to be. They would have seen eagles coming far enough in advance that they would have been intercepted. It would be very possible for the ring-bearing eagle to be downed through a combination of sauron's gaze, arrows, and nazgul.

Also, that part of mordor would have been absolutely full of orcs and trolls, many of whom could shoot and stab eagles. The hobbits were only able to sneak up to mount doom because sauron's gaze and armies were both diverted to the black gate.

>>49943185
>>49943424
Wow thanks, you've just turned me from not giving a shit about plotholes to having a ton of defence I can throw at people who bring up the eagle problem in the future.

>>49943036
>>49943185
>>49943424
There was also the fact that Sauran was, at the end of the day, a problem the humans needed to deal with themselves (hobbits count as humans since at the end of the Third Age hobbits turn into humans).

>>49943081
Wasn't Isildur also his great-great-(can't remember how many greats)-grandnephew? And kinslaying would've been a sin.

>>49942698

Fucking /thread

>>49944381
You are most welcome anon. It made me feel a lot better when I learned of these answers to the eagle problem, so I try to pass them on when it comes up.

>>49942278
Why didn't your dad pull out?

>>49944381
Even with all that there's the simple fact that just being near the ring can and will corrupt you over time. Even Gandalf was afraid to handle it, and Boromir felt its pull the moment he laid eyes on it.

An eagle becoming corrupted by the ring would spell inevitable death for the ring-bearer and a bloody fight between the eagles which may or may not end in one desiring the ring being the last bird standing.

>>49944381
There's also the fact that the Eagles are direct servants of the will of Eru.

They don't have to do a single thing other than eat, shit, and wait for Eru to tell them to do something, which he probably never will again.

The only reason they're even in the books at all is because they like Gandalf and do him favors sometimes because he's fun to be around.

Like, look through your folders and find the laziest "no fucks given" image. That's the Eagles towards everything, every crisis, and every request you could make.

>>49942698

god damn /tg/
kek

>>49947641
Their job is to watch for Dagor Dagarath, from memory.

Outside of that, it's all "not my problem" for a race of semi-divine birds.

>>49942698
>>49946090
>>49947673
You know that in most systems elves have the same average STR as humans, right? I mean, you played some tabletop, or else you wouldn't be here and say such things, right?

>>49942278
you cannot destroy Ring by force. should Eldron even resolve to try that, the Ring would corrupt him instantly. it's Crack of Doom, it's the place of utmost power for the Ring. it can snap the mind of virtually anyone who tries to do it ill by force there.

also, Isildur was a Numenorean. doubt Elrond stood much chance. Numernoreans are like human version of Noldor, power-wise.

>>49948306
Elrond would have wrecked Isildur m8

>>49948457
Sauron wrecked Gil'galad, who was a Noldo, and Elendil simultaneously.
Isildur wrecked Sauron

so no, badass Eldrond may be, but he would beat Isildur

>>49942278
Because in LoTR universe, people who attempt to do "pragmatic" goodness never work, because evil is non-negotiable like that.

Isildur couldn't use the ring for good, neither could Boromir, and if Faramir tried to, he'd get fucked up and when he realized that, he let Frodo go.

Same reason why Gandalf wasn't the Ringbearer, or why Tom Bombadil couldn't be one either.

Same reason for Frodo sparing Gollum when it was not logical to do so.

>>49948468
>Isildur wrecked Sauron

>>49943036
Everyone who says
>because we wouldn't have a story
to defend plot holes should be drawn and quartered.

>>49948610
we can't do that, because many of them are authors and if we kill them... we won't have a lot of stories

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>>49948623

>>49944381
The Ring would easily dominate the proud, murderous Eagles.

>>49948752
i've seen quite a bit of horror movies, but this scene is still the scariest one i've ever seen.

>>49948610
Considering it's not a plot hole, both statements are asinine.
>>49942278
For a handful of reasons:
Isildur was genuinely friendly with Elrond, and most people don't decide to shove people they respect into lava.
No one knew that keeping the ring meant that Sauron would survive, because only Sauron himself knew the details of how the ring worked in relation to him.
If it came to it, Elrond may not have been able to take Isildur in a fight, especially if Isildur put on the ring. At that point, Isildur was still among the mightiest single beings on Middle Earth.

>>49948486
I'm pretty sure that Tom couldn't be a Ringbearer because he gave even fewer shits about anything than the eagles.
Also, because he's an inscrutible force of "nature", beyond the ken of even the Valar.

>>49948623
Good.

>>49948768
Got me pretty badly as a kid.

>>49948497
>In the books he did, and it wasn't a lucky chump blow like the movie makes it.
Isildur benefits from a lot more protagonist power in the books, given that before this point he was the dude who stole the white fruit and one of those who led the exiles out of numenor before it got folded into the ocean.

>>49944381

The Nazgul also ride gigantic Fell Beasts.

>>49942278
Because Isildur would've kicked his shit in with the power of the ring.

Because tolkien was a moralist, and a conservative one, not with some twisted codes like Gygax.
And Elrond was unambigiously "good guy"
Unambigiously good guys don't commit what is basically a murder, even for higher ends. Especially in moralist author's prose.

>>49943185
And the fact that the eagles were vain, proud and selfish most of the time and thus very open to corruption by the Ring.

>>49948922
Pretty much. If you've read the books it's actually quite reasonable for Isildur to assume that he'd be able to control the ring.

Also: Fuck. Elves.

>>49945210
Yeah, Isildur is descended from Elros.
>>49947641
Eagles are Manwe's servants.

>>49948952
Were there any Fell Beasts that werent flown by Nazgul? Cant they just release a flock of them at the eagles?

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Obligatory eagles picture.

>>49942278
Because elrond was still wearing one of the rings of power that answers to the one ring, maybe?

>>49949473
no elf touched the Three while Sauron had the One. otherwise Sauron would just command them.

they were all hidden, so no, there was no Elven Rings on that battlefield at all

>>49949511
Er, I remember the opening sequence to the LOTR movie, which had the elf lords (or whatever they are called) wearing the rings of power.

>>49949575
yeah, BEFORE Sauri made the One. once Celebrimbor heard Sauron making the One he hid the Three. RTFM.

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>>49947641

>>49942278
I think it's because when the Ring is destroyed, most magic would go with it. And since Elves needed magic to do stuff while Man didn't; the Elves would pretty much go extinct shortly after. Can't remember exactly desu

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>>49942278
>I was there the day the strenght of men failed.
Says half elf - half human.

>>49949718
It would be difficult to be more wrong, but I'm sure 4chan could manage it.

>>49949756
Elrond chose to be elven.

>>49948270

You know that in LoTR, the few times we have direct strength comparisons between Elves and Humans, the humans are inevitably the stronger of the two?

>>49948468

Isildur only fought against Sauron in his own statement in The Rings of Power and the third age; which is awfully suspect. One of the first things the Ring does to mess with your mind is convince you you're the "rightful" owner.

>>49949511
>>49949575
>>49949603

In at least some versions of the Legendarium (Tolkien kept re-writing this bit over and over) while none of them wore the Three before the end of the second age, they did seem to have them on their persons. In fact, it's strongly implied that the reasons Cirdan and Elrond just kind of hung around and watched Gil-Galad fight Sauron without helping is that he handed off his rings to them so as not to have them with him when he went off to fight the big bad who had the ring.

>>49951242
hm, that makes sense. still, no way Isildur could command Eldron who would have just recently gotten Vilya, never put it on and probably did not consider himself its master. I mean, Isildur didn't even put the One on at that point, since it was too hot.


hm, wasn't Isildur vs Sauron in Elrond's tale too, as well as in the legends of Dunedain? or that's only in the movie?

>>49951242
>the few times we have direct strength comparisons between Elves and Humans
Like? And please don't confuse numeroereuens with humans. I can only think of Beren beating up some of Fingolfings sons, and he wasn't really a normal guy.

>>49951329
Hurin
Turin
Boromir and Aragorn - especially lampshaded during snowstorm of Kharadras

that's off the top of my head. only Noldor could compete with those

>>49951371
Hurin and Turin were both pretty much outliners, same family and I don't remember them fighting elves. Boromir and Aragorn are Dúnedains, you failed in this regard.

I wasn't even specifically talking about Tolkien elves, but questioning where this assumption comes from that elves have less STR.

>>49951310

No, in Elrond's tale it was

>I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-Galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aeglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.


>But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan stood, and I.


https://malikammar.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/j-r-r-tolkien-lord-of-the-rings-01-the-fellowship-of-the-ring-retail-pdf.pdf

(p345 or so)

He certainly doesn't seem to count himself, Cirdan, or Isildur as actually fighting, just kind of standing there.

>>49951329

> And please don't confuse numeroereuens with humans.

Numenoreans are humans. Only the royal line had any elven admixture, and since the choice of Luthien implies the difference between Elves and men is primarily in the soul, it doesn't seem like it would have much to go on.

And the other anon>>49951371

Brought up the three examples: You have Hurin, you have Turin in CoH, and you have Boromir and Aragorn with the portage of the Lorien boats; as far as I know, those are the only three examples in the legendarium.

>>49951486

And Beleg, Mablung, and Legolas weren't?

>I wasn't even specifically talking about Tolkien elves, but questioning where this assumption comes from that elves have less STR.

In a Tolkien thread, where we ARE talking about Tolkien elves.

>>49951693
>Numenoreans are humans
Powered up humans by the gods. It's like comparing a space marine to an eldar and saying he represents all of humanity.

The average elf is still stronger or as least as strong as an average human in Tolkiens setting, You can only find exceptional heroes like Túrin, Húrin and Beren, which where Edain, a particular royal line or powered up Numorians that maybe could beat an elf.

Oh great, I found a thing
>In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty...

>Their (Elves) bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapons or mischance, and less easily healed...

>>49951868

>Powered up humans by the gods.

Really? Where is that exactly? What do the Valar or Illuvatar do to "Power up " the humans besides give them knowledge? At that point, we may as well say that the Eldar are "powered up" elves, since they actually lived in Valinor, and consequently do way, way better than their moraquendi kin.

>The average elf is still stronger or as least as strong as an average human in Tolkiens setting,

And your proof for that is what exactly?

>You can only find exceptional heroes like Túrin, Húrin and Beren, which where Edain, a particular royal line or powered up Numorians that maybe could beat an elf.

And you only find exceptional elves who went to Valinor and were empowered by the regents Illuvatar set up in the world able to beat orcs, something humans do quite easily. The Elves of Ossiriand, however, lacking such contact, get their shit pushed in by bog standard hobbit sized monsters, because they're a bunch of primitives.
>In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty...

>Their (Elves) bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapons or mischance, and less easily healed...
And which of those mention lifting strength?

>>49943424
>many of whom could stab eagles

>>49951693
>He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan stood, and I.
> just kind of standing there
I am no LotR expert, but when someone says "i stood by him in battle" usually it means "i fought alongside him in battle", not just chilled there on.

>>49951908
>What do the Valar or Illuvatar do to "Power up " the humans besides give them knowledge?
Additionally to a greater lifespan? You mean that two of the already mentioned super strong humans are of this origin?

>And your proof for that is what exactly?
Legolas isn't even a Noldor and he is still desribed as ripped and buff as fuck. The average elf isn't some frail and sickle peasant that dies at the age of 35. Just something I gathered from reading without specifically looking for it.

>something humans do quite easily
Oh yeah, that is why they pushed the hobbits into mordor, because the war was going so well. And the dwarfs, oh boy, the dwarfs were soo weak, I don't even know where the idea of strong dwarf warriors comes from since they lost to fucking goblins. And the elves in the ring wars never helped, they were completely obliterated by the orc armies. Elrond just got smacked by some goblin and this is why he was to weak to take the ring from Isildur. Jeez

>And which of those mention lifting strength?
That's kinda the point, it doesn't describe them as stronger, but it also makes it look like they have less CON.

And as I said before, the only we know for sure that could beat up soem elves are from two exceptional royal lines.

>>49948802
I've seen people consider a Jew eating non-kosher food to be a "plot hole".

>>49952063

>Additionally to a greater lifespan? You mean that two of the already mentioned super strong humans are of this origin?

Which has to do with their biology how? Aragorn lives longer than almost all of his ancestors with more "elven blood" in them. This is a fantastical setting, where strength of will and magic keep people going longer.

>Legolas isn't even a Noldor and he is still desribed as ripped and buff as fuck. The average elf isn't some frail and sickle peasant that dies at the age of 35. Just something I gathered from reading without specifically looking for it.

And in DnD terms, strength and con are 2 different things. Elves are hardy, and I won't deny that, but there's nothing in the books to imply they're stronger than men.

>Oh yeah, that is why they pushed the hobbits into mordor, because the war was going so well.

The war that Sauron employed a huge number of men to fight for him, especially in his foreign expeditions?

>And the dwarfs, oh boy, the dwarfs were soo weak, I don't even know where the idea of strong dwarf warriors comes from since they lost to fucking goblins.

The dwarves are weak as powers. If you mean physical lifting strength, as far as I know, there are no direct comparisons between them and men, but the "make light of burdens" implies either pretty good strength or pretty good stamina.

>That's kinda the point, it doesn't describe them as stronger, but it also makes it look like they have less CON.

What? No, it makes them seem like they have a lot of CON, which I never once disputed. Elves also have notably better senses and magical abilities, and can extend their presence into the "spirit world" in a way that men simply can't. What does any of that have to do with strength?

>And as I said before, the only we know for sure that could beat up soem elves are from two exceptional royal lines.

Fighting ability != Strength. Please try to keep up.

>>49952011

>>49952011

>I am no LotR expert, but when someone says "i stood by him in battle" usually it means "i fought alongside him in battle", not just chilled there on.

Yeah, but link that in with the way Gandalf describes it (and Gandalf wasn't there, wasn't even incarnated at that point, that "Gil-Galad and Elendil fought sauron to their mutual death" and how he almost certainly got that story from either Cirdan or Elrond (or someone who got it from them) and I think it's pretty reasonable.

Plus, look at all the breaking commas in his statement. It implies that Isildur cutting the ring from Sauron's finger happened after Sauron fell.

>>49952128
>but the "make light of burdens" implies either pretty good strength or pretty good stamina.
It means they're dirty greedy horde-looting thieves.

>>49952128
>Which has to do with their biology how?
As you said, it's a fantastical setting. And I will mention it again, we are only sure with two royal bloodlines, the Numenoreans and Edain, so we can conclude that it's not their human origin, but their particular bloodline that makes them stronger.
>What does any of that have to do with strength?
That it doesn't describe the average men as stronger.
>Fighting ability != Strength. Please try to keep up.
You to, this whole thing started with some humans beating up some elves.

What a exactly was Sauron? My best guess is that he's a lich of some kind.

>>49951693
>He alone stood by his father
>in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan stood, and I.
I always took that to be the epic poetry sort of "standing together against the deity we're all trying to kill", otherwise cirdan and elrond standing alone by gil-galad, who is also fighting Sauron alongside elendil, who is alone beside isildur makes absolutely no sense. So I imagine it's kings on point, last heir of numenor and son of elf Jesus providing support. This also allows Sauron to get stabbed up by arda's most bearded elf.

>>49949814
Still he had more human blood than any other present elf in Middle Earth.

>>49952269
>As you said, it's a fantastical setting. And I will mention it again, we are only sure with two royal bloodlines, the Numenoreans and Edain, so we can conclude that it's not their human origin, but their particular bloodline that makes them stronger.

The Edain are literally "Every single pro-Elf human group in Beleriand". What exactly makes their bloodlines special? And if it is specifically them, how could the treachery of Ulfang and his kinsmen be such a decisive factor in Nirneath Arnoediad, more so than even the appearance of a dragon?

>That it doesn't describe the average men as stronger.

It also doesn't describe the average elf as stronger.

>You to, this whole thing started with some humans beating up some elves.

No, it started off with this anon,>>49942698
>>49947673


saying that elves can't pass "strength checks". You'll note that I cited to instances of direct strength being described (First age guys) or picking up something heavy and carrying it (Boromir and Aragorn), not in fighting ability.


If we are expanding it to overall fighting ability, then we have to make an enormously larger inquiry, because "Elven fighting ability" is really, really far from uniform, and also seems to greatly be impacted by their levels of what we would call technology. The elves with the good metalworking skills consistently do far, far better than elves without. Similarly, human fighting ability is all over the fucking map, owing to a multitude of different factors. The Rohirrim charge into three times their number of southrons and still kick the crap out of them. They're both humans.

>>49951152 >>49952329

>>49952298
Continuing my thought. If he's a lich, then hks phylactery is probably the One Ring. It makes sense in that regard. Though taking your phylactery into battle is still a bad move regardless of how conditionally indestructible and corrupting it is.

>>49952298
A Maia like Gandalf, but severely weakened following his defeat by Isildur.

>>49952298

Fallen angel.

>>49952313

I again would definitely read it the other way. He calls himself a witness to the struggle, not a participant. And again, Gandalf's rendition, which almost certainly comes from Elrond or someone who got the story from Elrond, is

>It was Gil-galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed;


(Same link as before, page 97)

>>49952298
You're fucking wrong. Mairon was a demigod of the forge, as was Saruman, and he defected to serve Melkor because he had a grand vision for improving creation and he thought he could direct Melkor's nihilistic violence and immense cosmic power to achieve it. This didn't happen, and ended with Eonwe, essentially the archangel Michael, beating his ask and offering him a chance at trial. He didn't want to be locked in a cell with feanor forever, so he ran away, and eventually came back disguised as an obviously untrustworthy elven wizard. He went on to try to mind control the anyone worth having the support of so they would all listen to his utopian plan for creation, got caught, run out of elvendom, and titled Sauron by feanor's grandson. Finally he dumped his remaining power into a nondepltable reality warping weapon so he wouldn't run out of magic like the other gods.

>>49952341
>What exactly makes their bloodlines special?
I don't know. We never hear about any other human family that has done similar deeds. It#s kidna similar with the Noldor, which stand out as well. We could blame Tolkien for putting these families so much in the spotlight. Numereans are also descendants of the Edain, I forgot about that.
>And if it is specifically them, how could the treachery of Ulfang and his kinsmen be such a decisive factor in Nirneath Arnoediad, more so than even the appearance of a dragon?
It's always a shitty thing and a huge blow to your morale when allies that are part of your strategy and also which probably stand really close to your line switch sides. It was the final nail in the coffin. But I reject the idea that this was the sole reason for their loss.
>It also doesn't describe the average elf as stronger
Certainly, what I'm rejecting is that the average elf is weaker, I said before at least as strong.
>If we are expanding it to overall fighting ability
Please no, we will argue the whole day.

>>49951152
Shaun King chose to be black

Bruce Jenner chose to be a woman

You chose to be a faggot

You see the pattern?

>>49952400
I would make sense for only Gil-galad and Elendil, the two biggest and leading figures, to be mentioned and not his retainers and companions. Specially in a short, summarized, third-hand version.

If you read in an history book that Napoleon defeated the forces of the austrians, do you imagine a single corsican defeating an army?

Not to mention that it would be extremely goofy to mention that they were just there standing.

>>49952329
That isn't how it works.

>>49952547
>I don't know. We never hear about any other human family that has done similar deeds.


Sure we do. What about Eorl the Young? What about Beorn? What about Helm Hammerhand? What about Bard the Bowman?

>It's always a shitty thing and a huge blow to your morale when allies that are part of your strategy and also which probably stand really close to your line switch sides. It was the final nail in the coffin. But I reject the idea that this was the sole reason for their loss.

It says in the Silmarillion it was the primary reason for their loss.

http://english4success.ru/Upload/books/473.pdf (p246)

>Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

>Certainly, what I'm rejecting is that the average elf is weaker, I said before at least as strong.

And you've brought no basis for this.

>Please no, we will argue the whole day.

All right, we'll table it. Let's see some examples in the books of elves showing physical, bodily, lifting strength.

>>49952573
Shaun King isn't really black, Bruce Jenner isn't really female, and I'm not really a faggot, that much I agree with.
By choosing to be an elf, Elrond was an elf. He lived for ages (literally), whereas his brother died long ago. Elves and men are not like different races.

>>49952498
All my guesses were based on only the movies. Never read the books.

>>49952671
>Sure we do.
We also have some elfen heroes, what I meant is that the really exceptional heroes of these old days come from the same families.
>http://english4success.ru/Upload/books/473.pdf (p246)
Eh, I'll give you that... not completely because:
>Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded none were slain
They couldn't be that strong if they couldn't kill a single one and I still interpret it that way that it wasn't their amazing fighting prowess that made them lost, but their sudden betrayal and attack at a weak spot.
>And you've brought no basis for this
Because I see no proof of this. The only basis for the opposite are exceptional heroes of not regular offspring and not the average man.

>>49952759
Human Tuor become elf though.

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>>49942698

>>49952855
>We also have some elfen heroes, what I meant is that the really exceptional heroes of these old days come from the same families.

Because there were only three families allied with the elves. Of course all the heroes are coming from there. If more people had shown up, you'd have more heroes, in all likelihood.

>They couldn't be that strong if they couldn't kill a single one and I still interpret it that way that it wasn't their amazing fighting prowess that made them lost, but their sudden betrayal and attack at a weak spot.

There were more elves at Hithlum than just Feanor's sons. There were 7 of those and I dunno how many thousands of their other retainers and armsmen and cousins and the like. I'm pretty sure some at least were dead and the hill wasn't being held by 7 brothers.

>Because I see no proof of this. The only basis for the opposite are exceptional heroes of not regular offspring and not the average man.

There's no proof either way; in nowhere in any of the Tolkien legendarium that I'm aware of do you sit down and have a muscular density comparison between Elves and men. As far as I know, there are only 3 anecdotal instances, and in every one of them the exceptional man is stronger than the exceptional elf. Is it a lot of proof? No. But it's literally all there is. On that basis, I came to the conclusion that in general, in Tolkien, men are physically stronger than elves.

>>49953026

Himring, not Hitlhum*

>>49953026
>There's no proof either way
And with that I will take my leave. Goodbye.

>>49942278
Because it wasn't meant to be.

Seriously, Elves cant do anything of their own volition, everything has already been sang into existence from beginning to end, and only mankind can add to the song on their own. Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, none of them really matter, only Mankind can do anything.

And if they did do things to change the song, then you have another Sauron to deal with.

>>49951329
>don't confuse numeroereuens with humans
In that case, you can't compare an Eldar to a regular human either. That's the same level of unfairness. You'd have to compare the regular human to a Nandor or Sindar, or even the Avari.

>>49949756
Half-elves take more from their elven side.

>>49942698
>Tolkein elf
>Weaker than a human
you some sort of idiot?

>>49953026
Not the guy you were arguing but
> As far as I know, there are only 3 anecdotal instances, and in every one of them the exceptional man is stronger than the exceptional elf
>3 ANECTODAL INSTANCES
>On that basis, I came to the conclusion that in general, in Tolkien, men are physically stronger than elves
>I came to the conclusion
Man, you're really shitty at coming to conclusions then. That's literally no basis for any statement.
Extrapolation of other cases of "physical fittness" like toughness and so on that are in favor elves to strentgh too because, contrary to what d&d stats want ypu to believe, those aren't entirely separate and there is a big chance for generally "tougher" race to also be "stronger" are far more reasonable than pulling statement that "elves are weaker" based on a handful of cases involving super-special cases. That's .literally kindergarten-tier reasoning.
Without any general comparision between them in that field in sources the best and safest bet that they;re more or less equal in terms of strentgh, since, if the difference was important it most likely would be mentioned, but if any of additional trails are to be considered still, general statement about different, yet somewhat related traits outweights extrapolation from extremely limited pool of individuals, whose special status is highlighted wherever possible, by a big marign

>>49953115

Dwarves can't do things though, that's their thing; they were never in the Song, being a secret creation, and for the right to exist they have been condemned to never impact the Song in any meaningful way.

>>49954934
There's no such condemnation mentioned in the work.

You guys are literally fucking retarded

Elendil and Isildur were 7 foot fucking tall numenorians. They would shit kick most elves, probably even noldor. Normal humans would get ass fucked by normal elves. Dunedain are numenorian descendants and would probably ass fuck normal elves. Not sure why any of this is hard to understand. Fucking children.

>>49944717
Sounds like dickass precursor race logic. "Yeah go ahead and solve this problem we created. It's a test. Or something. See you fags beyond the rim once you evolve into pure energy in a million years."

>>49955238
Define normal elves.

Would Boromir have been able to take on Legolas in a fight? He's supposed to be one of the strongest human warriors of his age.

>>49955238
>numenorians who are mighty because of their sliver of elven descent are clearly mightier than full elves

>>49955317
Nandor, teleri. It's clear sindar (Lego and his daddy) are a cut above and would probably only have trouble with the most seasoned Dunedain. While shitting on any lesser human.

>>49955387
And where's your evidence that a typical Nandor is inherently better than your typical human? It's also worth noting that the only thing that makes the Sindar special is their leadership, not the standard elf, and Elrond is a half-elf and his dad is fucking Earendil, and thus of Noldor descent. So thus is Legolas. Neither is your typical Sindar.

>>49946550
>Even with all that there's the simple fact that just being near the ring can and will corrupt you over time.
Can an eagle wear the ring? Can it master the ring?

>>49952298
He's a Maiar, he's basically an incarnated angel-like spirit. He used to be one of Melkors, the evil dickhead god who inevitably ruins everything, lieutenants and he's basically the same kind of incarnated spirit as the balrogs and as Gandalf, but far more powerful or at least more adept in the use of his power.

>>49955516
Where do you think America came from?

>>49955253
Nah, elves have a preordained destiny and don't make their own like humans do. On a less Silmarillioney note, the elves also have terrible form with Melkor and his servants so asking the humans to deal with it seem pragmatic.

The real question is, why the fuck did Gandalf lead the Fellowship through fucking Moria instead of the Gap of Rohan? The reason he gives is that he's unsure of Theoden's allegiance, a problem he solves with a single meeting when he actually goes there. It's certainly less risky than going through a lightless orc-and-balrog-infested dungeon.

Follow-up question: why didn't Gandalf share his travel plans with Aragorn or anyone else in the company? You'd think that they'd have the whole route mapped out, including backup plans and all the various ways into Mordor, before they ever left Rivendell so that everyone has a basic understanding of which way to go if the Fellowship breaks or Gandalf dies, both of which happen.

>>49955548
>He used to be one of Melkors
No, he belonged to Aule.

>>49955610
>less risky than going through a lightless orc-and-balrog-infested dungeon
They didn't know it was infested with orcs and balrogs.

>>49955610
>The real question is, why the fuck did Gandalf lead the Fellowship through fucking Moria instead of the Gap of Rohan? The reason he gives is that he's unsure of Theoden's allegiance, a problem he solves with a single meeting when he actually goes there. It's certainly less risky than going through a lightless orc-and-balrog-infested dungeon.
Saruman was nearby, and at the time nobody knew for sure what happened in Moria. All they knew is that a bit before the Council of Elrond communications had brutally stopped.

>Follow-up question: why didn't Gandalf share his travel plans with Aragorn or anyone else in the company? You'd think that they'd have the whole route mapped out, including backup plans and all the various ways into Mordor, before they ever left Rivendell so that everyone has a basic understanding of which way to go if the Fellowship breaks or Gandalf dies, both of which happen.
Bite me. The whole thing was a desperate, improvised plan, there was no indication of how Gandalf planned to enter Mordor without attracting attention. Fortunately, things worked out because Eru works in mysterious ways.

The shitty thing about this setting is that the Ainur hate humans but want to fluff up elves at every opportunity.

>>49955696
>All they knew is that a bit before the Council of Elrond communications had brutally stopped.

So, best case scenario, orcs everywhere. Worst case, a lot of things, up to and including Balrogs. Better odds taking on some human cavalry.

>The whole thing was a desperate, improvised plan
They spent two months faffing around in Rivendell after the Council of Elrond. They could have spent that time formulating a plan as a group and giving the hobbits a crash course in geography.

>>49955324

If he doesn't get shot, I imagine so. He manages to take down 20ish orcs alone and surrounded before going down. Legolas manages to bring down 41 in the ourse of a most of a nightlong battle when he has cover from friendly soldiers the whole time.

Overall, I would gut guess that Boromir is the "higher level" fighter. Then again, LoTR works on more or less real world physics, and the unarmored man is very clearly in trouble up against a master archer.

>>49955334

They pretty clearly are mightier than full elves, as evidenced by the Elves fleeing from their invasion of Valinor and trying to get the Valar (who kick it up the chain to Illuvatar) to deal with the problem.

Or how the War of Elves and Sauron in the middle of the second age is Sauron kicking the shit out of the Noldor until the Numenoreans send a small expedition to crush his forces.

Or how Sauron's entire army deserts him when the Numenoreans land in full force in the second age.

>>49955610

I'm pretty sure the reason he gives is worries about Saruman intercepting them and getting his hands on the ring.

>: why didn't Gandalf share his travel plans with Aragorn or anyone else in the company? You'd think that they'd have the whole route mapped out, including backup plans and all the various ways into Mordor, before they ever left Rivendell so that everyone has a basic understanding of which way to go if the Fellowship breaks or Gandalf dies, both of which happen.

The quest seems to be rather shockingly amateurish in general. It's only what like a week out that they notice that nobody brought along any rope. You'd think that in the literal months they spent in Rivendell, one of the elves there would have thought to provide them a list of supplies they'd probably need for a long journey.

>>49955661
>They didn't know it was infested with orcs and balrogs.
They didn't know of Battle of Azanulbizar?

>>49955627
Melkor didn't actually have many Maiar did he? I thought most of his came from other Valar's hosts and kind of turned to his service.

>>49955840

Not him, and I'm guessing, but I'm pretty sure the ones that eventually became the Balrogs were his "original" maiar. They seem to be most closely associated with Morgoth's fundamental building blocks of excessive heat and shadow melded together.

Given that there were "at most 7" balrogs, that would put it at well, seven maiar. OTOH, I don't think there's ever a full numbering of how many maiar they are, so whether or not he has more or less than the norm (and of course, I could be easily wrong about my Balrog conjecuture) is up in the air.

>>49955840
Melkor pretty much has nothing of his own. He can only steal and corrupt.

Except in early versions of the story where he invented ice, anyway.

>>49955795
>So, best case scenario, orcs everywhere.
No, the best case scenario is the Moria dwarves are still in there and they just had problems. Gandalf didn't suspect things would have gotten this bad so quickly until he entered the mines.

>They could have spent that time formulating a plan as a group and giving the hobbits a crash course in geography.
The only being that seems to have known about the secret entry to Mordor was Gollum. But even then, the basic problem wasn't geography, it was managing to approach Mordor without attracting attention, and this was something that couldn't be planned in advance because Sauron and Saruman supposedly had spies fucking everywhere, not to mention that even Gondor and such couldn't be trusted with the tentation of the Ring. Gandalf's entire plan hinged on sheer audacity, which is partially what thwarted Sauron's ability to guess what his enemies would do.

>>49955902

The version where he creates ice, he does so by corrupting Ulmo's water with his cold (to make ice) or his heat (to make clouds)

>>49955826
The Battle of Azanulbizar, and the whole war leading up to it, pretty much wiped out the orcs of the Misty Mountains. Of course, they came back eventually, and then they were beaten down again in the Battle of Five Armies. That was less than 100 years before the Fellowship set out, so Gandalf didn't expect the orcs would have already reestablished themselves yet again.

>>49955955
Good point.

>>49955955
If Melkor invented snow, can he really be a bad guy?

>>49956068
Snow is a blight upon this world.

>>49956068
That's kind of the point. Melkor tried to ruin Ulmo's water by freezing and boiling it, but ended up creating more beauty in the form of clouds/snow/etc. In the end, even actively trying to do evil always just ends up serving Eru's purposes in the end.

>>49956100
Poor soulless one.

>>49955891
>Given that there were "at most 7" balrogs
They fought by the dozen in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, though. It was mentioned that Gothmog commanded many lesser balrogs.

>>49956269
Tolkien couldn't make up his mind about their numbers, so you're both right.

Reminder that Ulmo is the best Valar.

>>49956339
All references to large numbers of Balrogs predate the writing of LotR by a fair bit. While writing LotR, Tolkien decided to make Balrogs fallen Maiar, greatly increasing their power and rarity. It's not like Tolkien went back and forth on the issue - he just changed his mind once, and all later drafts are consistent with that.

>>49956269
There's also the leftover balrogs (plural) who came to Melkor's aid against Ungoliant. If there were only about half a dozen of them at most (and surely some were slain in Melkor's first downfall) then more than one coming to his rescue by chance sounds incredibly unlikely.

I think it's more likely that "Balrog" was a category of beings with greater and lesser varieties, just as there were greater and lesser individuals among the Maiar, the former being established by name in the narrative while the latter simply made up the hosts of heaven.

>>49956141
Hence, free will is an illusion and nothing lesser creatures do ever matters. Their actions and even their thoughts are not their own, only the machinations of their omnipotent puppetmaster.

>>49956829

Morgoth's Ring, Section 2 (AAm*): note 50

>In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'

And it's not like Morgoth didn't call for their help when he threw down with Ungoliant. It wasn't "by chance".


>The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder. Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord,; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

>>49956889
>And it's not like Morgoth didn't call for their help when he threw down with Ungoliant. It wasn't "by chance".
He called out of desperation, with no forces (to his knowledge) in the area. It was less an order and more a divine" OH SHIT!"

The chance aspect was there being anything within running distance that would come out to save him. That he just happened to be near the hiding place of at nearly a third of his entire force of Balrogs (assuming he had a full seven left, of whose two came; if any had died it could have been half or more of their numbers) when he tried to shortchange the unholy abomination of hunger.

>>49956854
Melkor is hardly a lesser creature. Only the least, weakest, most pathetic, and disgusting of Eru's creations, mankind, has free will.

>>49955610
>The reason he gives is that he's unsure of Theoden's allegiance, a problem he solves with a single meeting when he actually goes there

He was Gandalf the grey when he decided not to go, and Gandalf the White when he decided to go there and managed to free Theoden. Not to mention he didn't have the ringbearer with him when he went there, so he was risking just his life and not the whole destiny of the free peoples.

>>49956854
Nah, it's just that Melkor is stupid.

>>49957286
Well he is Satan.

>>49949013
They tried to avoid taking part in the entire conflict. They only got involved when they had debts or personal relations to assist, usually relating to Gandalf, and when they thought victory would be absolutely assured by their intervention.

>>49954934
But Bilbo would never have obtained The Ring if not for the dwarves.

>>49955819

Of course it was amateurish, everyone was probably high as balls while planning it out.

>>49949014
>Pretty much. If you've read the books it's actually quite reasonable for Isildur to assume that he'd be able to control the ring.

Were talking about a guy from Numenor right? The Numenor that, even though they fucking had Sauron right there in their dungeon and knew EXACTLY who he was and who he had been working for prior, STILL let him out and STILL took his INCREDIBLY bad advice of setting foot on the Undying lands with consequences so cataclysmic that it looped all the way round from horrifying to cartoonish.

>>49957692
Can you really blame them? Elves get all the cool shit and the Valar like them way better than humans. A little jealousy is only natural.

>>49957767

Maybe. But the Numenorians still have WIS as their dump stat though.

File: tar-mairon and eonwe.png (966KB, 682x904px) Image search: [Google]

966KB, 682x904px

>>49957767
Make sauron make cool shit for you, its literally all he can succeed at. Do not under any circumstances let him run the government.

>>49955610
>Forgetting the storm Saruman made.
City kids don't understand weather can be a worse obstacle than any critter.

>>49955516
That kind of corrupting influence would turn an Eagle into something akin to the old dragons. Melkor supposedly created dragons by stealing some previous creature and perverting it the same way he did with the Orcs.

I'm half-convinced that that is what the Fell Beasts were: they're what happens to an Eagle when he gets Gollum'd, only slightly less powerful because the influence of the Rings in question were the Nine instead of the One.

>>49943081
I mean, if push came to shove, one of them would have had the one ring, while the other would have a sub ring. Like, before their individual power level.

>>49958071
>>the storm Saruman made
Moviefags.
>>>/tv/

>>49942278
Do you just go around and shove your grand^5-nephew into lava every day or something?