Pathfinder General - /pfg/

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>>49669798

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So quick question, I am in a gestalt campaign and making an Ivory Templar, that means Cleric prestiging to Sentinel and getting all the fun bonuses of worshipping Baphomet as time goes on.

My GM hates things that are 3pp and the hybrid classes. What would be a good class to compliment a bit of unrequested glaive love to the enemy's face? I'm stuck between fighter or Barbo.

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>>49670057
Urban Barbarian, so you can still cast while you beat people's faces in.
But really, I don't think you absolutely need to MC, since you're already a Cleric which are solid at combat to begin with.

>>49669798
>Cutting Forrest's patreon out of the OP

What the fuck, fampai? Go ahead and call me a shill, but at least I'm not a dickless retard like you.

https://www.patreon.com/forrestfirestudios

>>49670057
Barb. Fast movement is always nice, plus a little rage now and then tends to beat what you'd get from the lower levels of fighter.

Asking again, what are some interesting feats a (non-combat focused) vigilante might take at low levels?

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I need the latest pdfs!

>>49670114
Cosmopolitan

>>49670090
It doesn't really have a place in the OP. Honestly none of the links do besides the pastebin. They should be in the pastebin. If we want news just put them as a "news" section in the pastebin.

I am new to pathfinder, and I need help with some character background stuff.

The standard campaign setting is Golarion, right? My PC is in the place that has Absolom.

What place/region is the closest to Greco-Roman history?

The wealth of information and options is overwhelming, and I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

>>49670295

Taldor is good with Greco-Roman history, so is Lybdos or whatever it's called.

>>49670295
All the No!Europe culture haves a pseudo-grecoroman template, the Azlanti, which got wiped out by a meteor nine thousand years ago.
Still there is a nation found far from No!Europe called Iblidos which is mythic Greece as fuark.

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Which classes make the best use of having wings?

>>49670330
>>49670335

Thanks. To specify, I meant the culture, not the history. Hittin' the afternoon slump, make word speaking more harderer.

>>49670354
You can find further information on Iblidos in the book "Distant Shores".

>>49670342

For character archetypes and roles, I can think that spellcasters and grapples might benefit from having wings. Archers could too, 'cause people couldn't touch them.

>>49670335

What regions are not-europe? It seems like the south-western region is not-africa/asia

>>49670281
Nobody reads the pastebin, it's in all our interests to get exposure for things like patreons and playtests. Who is it hurting to have a small handful of links in the OP?

>>49670408
Garund, which is No!Africa and Casmaron which is No!Middle East-Near Asia.
No!Asia is Tian-Xia which is located in the planet where America will be.

>>49670442
I've never read the pastebin once, but I have checked out the playtest in the OP, the pastebin just kinda seems to be there. I say keep playtest and stuff in the OP.

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>>49670377
>>49670354
>http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Aelyosos

>>49670461

Minkai is Not!Japan and Arcadia is Not!North America.

And linnorm kings are Not!Scandinavia.

Okay, I have had it in my mind that the inner sea region is essentially the Mediterranean, which seems like a pretty decent guess.

>>49670090
I don't donate to tranny patreons and I don't intend to start now. I don't give a shit if she's "one of us".

So what's a good way to build a traditional "tank" character and keep them meaningful and also fun in combat? I'm definitely thinking a tower shield, and maybe some divine magic and have plans split between Divine Defender/Sacred Shield/Knight Disciple Paladin or maybe
Warder

Have you anons ever made a fun shield specialist build in a pathfinder game? How did you go about it?

I'm going to my first pathfinder society event.
If I don't have the book, can I use things from advanced player's guide?

>>49670646

I think they want you to have the corresponding book for any character options you intend to use.

>>49670646

Technically no. My experience is that most people won't question it. If someone at the table has it, then you can use it in session, but that is pretty unreliable.

>>49670577

Andoran is Colonial America!

>>49670644
>So what's a good way to build a traditional "tank" character and keep them meaningful and also fun in combat?
Warder.

>I'm definitely thinking a tower shield,
You thought wrong.

>>49670687

What about avistan? What is the place modeled after?

>>49670577
Its a little more different than that.
Its a horribly bastardized version of the Mediterranean, with England jammed into the spot where the Iberians should be, and a whole bunch of cliche fantasy nations stacked on top of Rennaisance era nations and culture, with Jerusalem being an islond no one cares about, and Greece being a whole other continent.

Also New Jersey is there in the North West for some reason, MURRICA is in Greece's place, France is mid Revolution, Belgium got fucked by Goblins, Russia and Poland have switched places, and Elrond Hubbard has his own country as well.

It is not a well thought out or executed setting.

>>49670642
Way to be a huge dick anon.

>>49670715

So Abasolam is 'murica?

>>49670750
No, Andoran is.
Absolam is Useless Jerusalem

If I wanted to nerf the Path of War classes, how would you recommend doing so?

>>49670811
Disallow maneuvers that are literally just better full attacks. That's it, anything else and you're just being a faggot.

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>>49670811
Nerf the disciplines instead.

Reduce the damage from Broken Blade and Thrashing Dragon.

Reduce the healing from Silver Crane.

>>49670281
Nothing wrong with long OPs.

As said, people actually read those, and I think more stuff should go in.

If you keep cutting stuff out of the OP I'm going to have to start preferring the animeanon OP threads because at least they keep the text intact.

>>49670839
Silver crane healing is fine.

>>49670779

Eeeuggh! Why would anybody think a proper campaign should center around that place?

>>49670706

Avistan is pretty much Europe, although Taldor is Generic Europe Land.

Cheliax is the Spanish Empire with a British Satan skin, Varisia is Italy, Ustalav is Transylvania, Brevoy is Poland and Molthune/Nirmathas is Germany/Netherlands.

>>49670811
I've seen Forrest mention that (as a personal houserule and nothing more official), they reduce all full initiators except non-ravenlord harbingers to have the 6/9 archetype progression.

You can still use Advanced Study to 'break' progression and get maneuvers 1 level higher, but it costs valuable feats.

They had a houserule pastebin with some quality of life buffs to the system too but I lost the link.

>>49670888

Anon, Absalom had stopped being the focus since the second book of the first AP.

They hyped up the place as the center of the setting and what came out was a stillbirth.

>>49670902

>Warders and Warlords no longer get full initiating

Wow, thanks Forrest.

>>49670931
Hearsay house rules, oh no.

I'm really upset i can't play my Ratfolk Gunslinger now because it sounds like a fun character but thats DM life.

>>49670902
>except non-ravenlord harbingers
Weird to make that distinction. It's like they're admitting ravenlords were just better than regular harbingers despite very forceful disagreement when brought up previously.

>>49670931
They're strong enough without initiating at all and you know it

>>49670844
> Nothing wrong with long OPs.

Except that the fact that OPs lately have become a clusterfuck of cluttered shit is half the reason why nobody reads the damned pastebin. Because it's lost in a sea of playtests that have been dormant for months. Make it simple:

>Title
>Pastebin link
>Sample discussion topic Edition
>Link to last thread

Simple and concise with nothing but important stuff. Include active playtests in the pastebin if you want, but if there's one that actually needs attention you'll be sure Gareth or N. Jolly will be sharing their work in every thread.

>>49670844
See, there are some things I'm ok with and some I'm not. I'm ok with playtests. I'm not ok with just Forrest's patreon unless she has some kind of actual news.

>>49670959

And yet I've had three separate campaigns I'm in that use initiating have the DM bring up the "PoW alterations" and insist we change to them. Forrest's "hearsay house rules" are legitimately fucking up games I'm in.

>>49671017
No they aren't.

>>49670844
Nice try riding the coattails of the DSPshills, animeanon.

>>49671029

I don't even know how you can say that when I literally just said they're fucking up my games.

>>49671072
Because I don't believe they're fucking up your games.

>>49670987
It's Forrest's opinion and not representing any sort of 'they'.

It's a great archetype but personally, past level 10, Ravenlord does get notably stronger than the other harbingers.

I'd say it might also work if you let Ravenlords keep full initiating but lose INT to damage at level 10.

>>49670915

Dang, mang. I wish I was still in Eberron with Sharn.

>>49671109

You dropped Eberron for Golarion? Buddy, why.

>>49670839
What's the issue with Silver Crane healing? It doesn't seem all that impressive.

>>49671130

The long and short is that Eberron was 6-10 years ago with my old group. I went abroad, dropped those friends. Back in the States and looking for a new group to play with. Hitting PFS to network and look for a good group.

>>49671100

They're fucking up my games because we just had a vicious little back and forth in one, and the other two have the DM implementing the rules so now I gotta work with a radically less effective maneuver list.

Shit man, I'm not even a minmaxer, I just wanted the high-level maneuvers for how cool they are.

>>49670999
>Except that the fact that OPs lately have become a clusterfuck of cluttered shit is half the reason why nobody reads the damned pastebin.

That's a hot opinion with nothing at all to back it up

>>49670839

You only say we need to nerf the damage because you have fuckwits using CQC boosts with a fucking greatsword.

Don't let your player do that and Broken Blade becomes fine.

Like, imagine using Piercing Thunder with a cestus, same concept.

>>49670090
>Exactly what a guy said would happen when I asked how long we were gonna keep it there

Look dude, the patreon's alive and well and the talk about her material will be advertisement enough.

>think about running game for /pfg/
>/pfg/ is really fucking autistic
Man first of all I know I would get tons of people trying to sign on, and second I know most of them would be garbage tier fetishy veiled furbait.

Why do so many people dig arena-based games where the PCs are basically gladiators fighting for show in front of a crowd? I see these kinds of games recruiting online pretty frequently, and I personally don't get the appeal. Almost without fail the DM tries to describe it as "like League of Legends but X", so I can't help but think it's because of LoL that these games are popular.

>>49671163
That's on your DM, not forrest.

Don't blame someone else's houserules for your own DM's faggotry.

>>49671187
I was on the losing side of this argument before. The TL;DR of it is that even if you're using only unarmed strikes as intended, it still has pretty much the highest damage of all disciplines.

>>49671163
Just be a harbinger

>>49671187
But... a cestus is a piercing weapon? It's a perfectly valid choice for Piercing Thunder?

>>49671210

Just pitch the concept and we'll go from there, make an application process and you won't get the fetish bullshit.

/pfg/! I have a challenge for you.

Tell me a legitimate criticism about your favorite setting and tell me a legitimate good point about your least favorite setting.

First time creating a Pathfinder game, as a DM, and making maps seems to be a bitch on Roll20, thanks to "Premium Marketplace" being the only place to find assets to make maps.

Anyone have any good map making tools/assets for DMs to make Pathfinder maps with?

>>49671216

Sometimes I want to make a character designed purely to fuck someone up, anon.

>>49671163
In my games I pull out Elric houserules and instead say that all 6/9ths go up to Warder progression

Also I'm more lenient about homeruling stacking archetypes with the initiator ones, and anything else gets some free Martial Training feats

Full anime now

>>49670839
Any specific maneuvers or disciples I should keep my eye out for?

If I wanted to buff mundanes at higher levels (Like level 10+), would granting them the Martial Training line of feats at level 10 and every even level after work?

>>49670902
Honestly, while I don't want to cull martial initiator's progressions that hard, would making it so that the level one can select maneuvers at equal to that work well?

>>49670829
Would you consider low level strikes (Lvl 1-3) equal to a full attack?

>>49671269
I don't have a favorite or least favorite setting. Well, I guess I don't like Toril, but I do like the serpent kingdoms.

>>49671218

The public posting of these rules are directly responsible for the fucking up of my games, or are you suggesting this would have never happened if they were never posted?

>>49671233

Piercing Thunder is pretty obviously meant for spears, anon.

>>49671289
>Honestly, while I don't want to cull martial initiator's progressions that hard, would making it so that the level one can select maneuvers at equal to that work well?

It's a nerf compared to default and a buff compared to Forrest's houserules.
Personally I like it, it's a cool idea.
Just remember they can still select higher level stuff with Advanced Study.

>>49670342
Long range attackers, and visually any silver-crane or black seraph maneuver users.

>>49670851
it's downright shitty if you're ranged, though it's better than nothing at least.

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>>49671271
Here's what I'm doing

I'm taking tilesets from SNES games and making them into maps with Tiled, and then exporting and uploading the image of the map i make to roll20 (you have to upsize it, i recommend making it 5x bigger).

You end up with a map that looks like this

that took me like an hour and i was being fiddly and learning the program still

I also like to use and edit sprites for enemies, as well as using them for PCs, it makes for a really adorable game, and its pretty easy.

>>49671258
I mean there is that and most people on /pfg/ who are desperate for a game have a reason they aren't in a game. /pfg/ is really fucking autistic.

Besides my style of game would not be what /pfg/ even enjoys. I don't have "lewdness" and don't cater to it. I don't allow a lot of races. The world is dangerous and hostile, and encounters aren't automatically leveled to the party. Often the solution is "don't engage in direct conflict". The game would be a roil of desperation as the players attempt to establish themselves.

>>49671298
Your GM is responsible for the houserules he implements in his game, not anyone else. If he hadn't used Forrest's houserules, he'd almost certainly have used some other way to "fix" what he perceives as broken.

>>49671311
You're not going to wreck the balance with a non spear.

Unarmed strikes have a balancing point:
>Unless you're going Fool's Errand, you need a feat to be able to use them at all
>Even then, they only do 1d3 with 20/x2 crits, unless you have class features or another feat
>Amulet of Mighty fists costs double this one is bullshit though

You can use piercing thunder with a bardiche and be doing 1d10 out of the box, downgrading to a cestus isn't going to make a fucking scratch in balance.

>>49670811
The broken damage part is the Full-Attack maneuvers.

HOWEVER, if you do that you should buff regular single hit strikes as well in many many cases, because the main reason everyone goes for those full attack maneuvers is the EXACT SAME REASON PEOPLE USE FULL ATTACKS OVER REGULAR SINGLE HITS.

Would YOU like to do +4d6 on a hit, and maybe have a low DC chance of slowing the target if they SOMEHOW can fail the save?

or would you just rather go "I full attack" like everyone else always does, doubling your damage already if you so much as hit a second time, out of the EXTRA THREE ATTACKS YOU'LL MAKE OVER THE FIRST, TWO OF WHICH ARE AT FULL BONUS TOO, ALL OF WHICH COULD CRIT.

Strikes aren't meaningful enough vs regular full attacks, so it's only natural everyone would go for full-attack-maneuvers

>>49671369
That sounds fun. Lewd times work better in one-on-one games anyway. My fetish is women in realistic armor

>>49671369
>don't allow a lot of races

Why do you hate fun

>>49671367
It seems like a good idea. I want a more realistic looking map, but RPG-maker sprite maps may work too.

Any advice for realistic looking maps or are sprite maps the way to go?

>>49671289
No, most of the full attack ones are level 6+ and literally go "full attack but also these bonuses/effects".

MOST level 1-2 maneuvers (people get a second attack around the time you get your level 3s) are a little better than a single hit, which AT level 1-2 (as in, before you even get level 2 maneuvers) can be a little problematic for GMs that haven't been able to deal with such complicated things as "barbarian hits hard" in their retard lives, which is somehow very common.

past character level 3, the single hit strikes are almost universally "okay but two hits would be better".

>>49671417
I don't allow Tiefling/Aasimar because outsiders don't exist in that fashion in setting. I don't allow elf and elven offshoots because they don't exist like that in setting. I don't allow many human offshoots (the planar ones) because again outsiders don't exist like that in setting. I don't allow the asian theme'd races because they don't fit the setting.

I seperate interbreeding species into:

Orc/Human/Halfling

Dwarf/Gnome

Goblin/Hobgoblin

>>49671454
Realistic maps just don't work that well on roll20 imo

the grid system takes advantage of sprites so i prefer it

>>49671456
what about ratfolk

>>49671462
Fair enough. I'll look into doing that from here on out. Hopefully it doesn't break immersion to suddenly update maps like that.

Thanks anon.

>>49671369
>He doesn't run Magitech-fantasy games about competitive drag racing

Come on man, what's not to love?

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>>49671491
Just tell your party it looks better

And then have them rip sprites for their characters

Or do it yourself

I find it makes it all very consistent and fitting

>>49671399
>and maybe have a low DC chance of slowing the target if they SOMEHOW can fail the save?
Now that's not fair. Assuming you have a 16 in your initiating attribute, and wielding the right weapon or just give all maneuvers the +2 bonus as if they were using the right weapon because it's dumb that they don't, that makes a 1st level maneuver have a DC of 16. That's an entirely-reasonable DC for all the way up until about 5th level, and being more SAD or focusing on the saves (like being a Harbinger to do both) just makes it better.

The rest is a fair argument though..

>>49671473
The total list of races I use are:

Orcs
Human
Half-orcs
Halflings
Dwarves
Gnomes
Goblins
Hobgoblins
Bugbears (homebrewed)
Ratfolk (more like skaven)
Kobolds
Changelings (hags are a much bigger thing in setting than in Golarion)
Half-ghoul (Called Geists)
Dhampir

>>49671526
>all those monster-y races
I'd call lewds if elves were there

>>49671510
What's so fun about a bunch of trannies running?

>>49671526
>Changelings (hags are a much bigger thing in setting than in Golarion)

PF butchered changelings pretty badly, though. Ravenloft changelings > Golarion changelings

>>49671544

Are ravenloft halfings the doppelganger-humanoid children? 'Cause I was three bags of holding disappointed that Changelings couldn't disguise self at will. Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full.

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>>49671510
Is pic related?

>>49671526
>ratfolk (more like skaven)

What about gunslingers tho

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>>49671542
You tell me, anon, you tell me!

>>49671526
>Bugbears (homebrewed)
What do you do with them differently than having them just be hairy orcs?

>>49671578
They're hairy bigger gobbos.

>>49671383

You imply any published material should never be held up to scrutiny if its existence alters anything about your game.

This is like saying the change from CON to INT for the scarred witch doctor is completely okay because you "don't have to follow it" even though I've met DMs who have.

I'm just extremely bummed out that this is happening and there's nothing I can do to change it. Things were going great before the rules were posted, what the fuck am I supposed to do?

>>49671544
I like hags and half-hags as a concept. Basically in setting hags are primordial conceptualizations of the humanoid form, they (like outsiders) congealed out of the nothing there was before but in a humanoid shape. They are the only ones that can interbreed with humanoids. They actually taught mortal races magic, all arcane magic stemming from hagcraft (which evolved into witchcraft).

I removed the silly "only female" thing for changelings. They're essentially primordial expressions of mortals. Stuck between physical and not. They by standard have the "witchborn" race trait changelings can get.

If I ran the game it would be following the characters as part of a mercenary company (I would have a long list of NPCs in the mercenary company) and follow the company's exploits. The continent the players would be on will have been in a roil of war for actually decades with no change of stopping any time soon. A lot of death and destruction, but a fuck ton of money as well for those who are clever & powerful enough.

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>>49671566
Throw in a bit of this and you're not far off the mark.

>>49671562
Nope. They're children of hags, but they're mostly indistinguishable from humans until they reach maturity(sometime in their 40s or 50s, if I remember correctly). They're barren, though, and they tend to be exceptional in some way: the children of annis are very strong and tend to be warriors, the children of green hags are beautiful, etc.

>>49671399

I always use strikes, anon. I've never seen the need to use boosts beyond special occasions because, as you imply, abusing them just fucks up the game and fucks up the fun of everyone at the table.

>>49671578
They're under the banner of goblinoids. Also they are highly religious and are one of the few species to have the curse of the "unquiet dead". Stillborn bugbears will often come to life and grow as spiritual/political leaders of their people. The dead will often rise.

This happens in different forms for all goblinoids. Bugbears rise physically. Hobgoblins rise as angry ghosts/spirits to air their armies and to patron the living.

Goblin return as "floaters", balls of condensed emotion and concepts that sometimes are physical as ectoplasm and sometimes merely thought.

So it goes from Physical -> Not

Bugbear -> Goblin -> Hobgoblin

This is because of an ancient curse placed on all goblinoids.

>>49671595
Scarred Witch doctor is officially published, everything about Forrest's Homerules has a big <THIS ISN'T DSP> tag on it.

Really, I'd recommend talking it over with your GM. See if you can apply some other nerfs, like only using 1d3 weapons or getting slightly reduced WBL in exchange for full progression.

>>49671612

Aw. I like Eberron Changelings and have been wanting to play one or a race like it. That would make a fun rogue or bard, methinks.

>>49671410

Lewd is almost always better when it's done in private between two consenting players with the most other players known is "they fucked."

>>49671526
Why is everyone ugly? Where is the fluff?

>>49670057
Urban Barb for Rage boons and "Controlled Rage" is a nice compliment to a battle cleric, not to mention a fairly thematic combo.

If you are going the fighter route, Two-Handed fighter is prob the best pick. Aside from that, bonus feats are always nice. To sweeten the deal with fighters a bit, ask the GM to consider the Stamina Pool optional rule for said fighters only. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/swordlord)

>>49671629

I wouldn't be bitching about it in here if I didn't already do a little begging on my part.

And the worst part is you and I both know they're going to moan about my character still being OP because DMs can't get it through their head that high damage dice does not necessarily translate into an overpowered character.

>>49671613
I sure as fuck wasn't implying that at all.

I was implying that a GM shouldn't have that much more trouble from strikes than he does from fucking full attacking with any martial class that knows how to fucking make their fucking build even a little bit (like knowing that the TWF chain is a bad idea if you wield a single two-hander).


For all the shit people give PoW about killing faster, the truth of the matter is its nothing but a symptom of a combat system broken at the very base, whose "problems" we can find everywhere else already, but are simply waved away or ignored as being non-problematic because they come from the core rules.

It's like when all the independent news reports are pointing to severe corruption in a congressman's office, and your local congressman is going "you shouldn't use those reports they're biased and damage our country's secrets".

The secret being damaged in THIS case is that single hits (whether vital strike or otherwise) have no hope of keeping up with full attacking, as the latter literally multiplies everything many times more than a single hit would ever do.

>>49671660

Are you calling humans, halflings and gnomes ugly?

>>49671367
Any games you would recommend ripping sprites from? This seems like the perfect tool to use to design more intresting maps.

>>49670057
>>49671681

My bad, grabbed the wrong link from a friend I was talking to.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules

>>49671660
Humans/Changelings/Orcs/Half-orcs/Dhampir/Half-ghouls can be beautiful. Dwarves & Gnomes can be handsome.

As I stated here >>49671626 goblinoids have a raw deal with existence. Unlike everyone else their souls get no ticket to the afterlife.

The afterlife however isn't all that great and instead of orderly god run afterlives into basically ego death where you return to the chaotic sludge that makes up everything. If you have a strong enough personality you can retain it however and become an outsider. These outsider form to archetypes (which are largely non-sapient and run on instinct) unless powerful enough to consume others of their kind, at which point their regain sapience and a new unique form.

Then there is another layer where you continue to do this as you try and climb the ladder to godhood. Outsiders are pretty fucking rare and most amounts to mindless automatons following predetermined actions. The only exception to this again Hags for unknown reasons.

>>49671688
Well. Just be a harbinger?
Crimson Countess is pretty fun.

>>49671705
Maybe "everyone" was a hyperbole but I sure as hell can't see any fluffiness. .

>>49671721
I like to rip sprites from SD3 and Chrono Trigger

any old SNES RPG will do the job though, so will a lot of GBA games

>>49671745
>>49671766
Ah I thought you meant fluff like the setting's fluff.

Ratfolk can be fluffy if well groomed. I mean more like skaven in terms of physique. Bugbear can be fluffy if well groomed.

>tfw my Friday group canceled with total party breakup seemingly eminent

At least I have an excuse to kill my liver tomorrow, I guess.

I keep hearing about Forest's house rules, and yet I do not see any link to them, nor can I seem to actually find any of them. Can someone provide a link?
If someone posts link I swear

>>49671399
>>49671523
Would buffing the DCs for the Strikes do some good? Increasing DCs to 10+1/2 level or something similar?

>>49671792
>It's Thursday today
Fuck you Anon goddamn I'm sick of your time wizard bullshit.

>>49671510
I intend to do something like that in the future based off old-school wood ramp motorcycle races.
The Ride skill suddenly matters.

>>49671834

You know people can have vicious arguments the day before an event, anon.

Alright, so let me see if I have this right.

I have an idea for a character where I take 6-9 levels in Ranger to get a ton of shield feats (want to make a dual shield wielding character, for fun).

But if I put Effortless Lace on a pair of Spiked Heavy Shields, they become Light, so I can add dex to hit/damage with Finesse/Finesse Training/Deadly Agility, Agile?

>>49671784
>>49671660
>>49671526
They're fucking ugly! This is shit. None of the races are cute. Fuck off.

>>49671876

>If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon's intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.

via srd

Seems like yes. Also, that's silly.

>>49671858
If you're saying you can make it Wednesday again I will happily suck your wizard dick.

>>49671815
Only if rounded up; otherwise your CURRENT highest strike level is -1 DC until you gain your next level when you obtain it. It would help keep the low level strikes relevant though.

However the real problem is damage.

Single attacks often can't kill a target, except certain specialized builds (my sniper uses the level 7 tempest gale maneuver to get at least one or two x5 crits per encounter) combined with specific maneuvers. Just like how Vital Strike ain't worth using, if you could use 3-4 attacks, a single attack with +xd6 extra damage dice just won't help. SURE you could do 1/3 the target's damage and stagger it... OR you could've dropped it into the negatives or blown it apart outright. One of these is significantly better AND safer for you and your partymembers than the other.

When actively selecting not to take a target entirely out of a fight when you could do so, you are actively opting to put your allies in greater risk.

The real fix is GLOBAL; there need to be less attacks per full attack. Probably half as many; 1 attack each plus one per two extra attacks gained from the system (so a second attack if you're hasted at BAB6+ for example).

Combined with the higher DCs that would probably fix everyone - but that's not only initiators that need to take this hit. It's barbarians and the dragons you're fighting too.

>>49671922
By saying I can, you must now provide my penis oral pleasure.

Unless you're a guy. That's kinda icky, I don't swing that way, would you happen to have a hot sister?

>>49671922

What's so important about Wednesday?

>>49671943
Nigga if you're a wizard just polymorph him into a cute girl.

>>49672027
I need time to get stuff done. I haven't prepped anything for the Friday game.
>>49671943
>would you happen to have a hot sister?
Depends, can you push us back about 3-4 years?

>>49672051
Maybe he has Transmutation as a banned school. Could be a Lust or Pride Specialist.

I'm a DM but I have hit a wall with my PF writing, I kinda want to read some campaigns and take ideas from those but the two I've found has been pretty bad (the rest was behind a paywall). Is there any website you guys get your supply from where you don't have to pay 20 dollars for a DnD campaign?

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Do Oracles have any potential for being offensive in combat? Their spells don't look too damaging, are they relegated to support?

>>49672175
Oracles can literally be beatsticks

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>>49672175

>That breastplate
>That spear

I'm in love.

>>49672175
Battle, Bones, Apocalypse, Ancestors, and a few other Oracles make good beatsticks, plus they draw from Cleric list which has some decent buffs.
Plus they even get a PrC for MCing with Barbs for extra beatdown.

>>49672186
Care to elaborate senpai?

>>49672226
You know how a cleric isn't a backline pussy but rather can be in the frontline smashing heads in with a mace

Thats the Oracle, except the Oracle has mysteries that give AC and weapon bonuses too.

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>>49672213

>>49672135
Do you mean as in campaign logs or premades? Because I'm fairly certain the trove has most APs.

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>>49672352

I want her to take off that armor and give it to me!

>>49672213
Anon, if girls with modest breast and their own spear are your thing, I'm sure /d/ can accommodate you.

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>>49672382

>>49671890
>I can't be a mary sue human with planetouched powers or play something I want to jack off too
>IT'S SHIT

>>49672051
That's still a guy.

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>>49672395

>No armor
>Hobbled-together cyberpunk spear

Eh... Not my cup of tea, sorry.

>>49672383

But that breastplate and spear are so pretty! I like pretty armor and pretty weapons!

>>49672175
ORADIN
R
A
D
I
N

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>>49672413
You said you wanted the armor off!

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>>49672401

In my experience, the ugly races still tend to be pretty lewd since you can get a good "Beauty and the Beast" thing going with another party member.

>>49671369
>>49671526
>Often the solution is "don't engage in direct conflict".
My only apprehension is this, the race list looks pretty good bar Gnomes and Haflings existing.

Tell me more.

>>49672410
I mean, you're not wrong, but you can at least make the body feminine to trick your eyes for the whole thing.

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>>49672422

The spear says "no" but the armor says "yes yes yes."

I'm also a sucker for redheads.

>>49672422
That human is WAY darker than the other one posted.

Do all humans look a like or something to you huh?


Fucking racist.

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>>49672427

>>49672427
Would YOU fuck a hobgoblin?

>>49672434
Like i said, it would follow the exploits of a mercenary company on a continent that has been in a roil of war for decades. The NPCs would be drawn from the mercenary company and each PC be a member. The first session would help establish the the alignment/personality/leanings of the mercenary company.

Then it turns into a war campaign.

>>49671369
>and most people on /pfg/ who are desperate for a game have a reason they aren't in a game. /pfg/ is really fucking autistic.

I always thought it was because most people don't 3pp/Psionics/PoW/etc and are really retarded about what they allow.

I've been in a few /pfg/ games and I'd only say I've seen 3 REALLY bad eggs that were all eventually dealt with.

I thought the lewd and kitsune shit were memes until I saw the latest game recruitment.

I mean this is all anecdotal, and anyway. Tell me people of /pfg/ who have played with /pfg/ how has it gone?

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>>49672534
>Would YOU fuck a hobgoblin?
Yes, wouldn't you?

>>49672534
Oh, I think I like the sound of that.

>>49672534
>Would YOU fuck a hobgoblin?
You mean you wouldn't?

>>49672534
>Would YOU fuck a hobgoblin?
Where do you think baby hobgobs come from?

>>49672434
Oh and it would be:
>25PB
>Paizo material allowed
>DSP content allowed
>Anything else you have to run by me
>Anyone who I find is just intentionally trying to game broken 3rd party material (or 1st party material) is getting kicked. Optimization is fine, exploitation is not.
>Some spells are taken away such as Resurrection, Long Range Teleportation, Planar Bindings, Planar Travel, Contacting other Planes, & Commune (hell I considered removing scry except it's really easy to counter).
>Start at 3rd level Because /pfg/ throws a tantrum if you start at anything less
>Standard WBL
>Some feats are banned, the usual ones + permanent item crafting (so no wondrous items or arms & armor), crafting scrolls/potions/wands are fine (classes that get permanent item crafting as bonus feats we'll work out what they get instead)

>>49672534
>Like i said, it would follow the exploits of a mercenary company on a continent that has been in a roil of war for decades. The NPCs would be drawn from the mercenary company and each PC be a member. The first session would help establish the the alignment/personality/leanings of the mercenary company.

Are you planning to have the mercenaries enrolled into the service of a sorceress-queen and then maybe embroidered into the rivalry of her lieutenants? With, perhaps, a chosen one destined to defeat her thrown into the mix somewhere?

>>49672582
>>49672572
>>49672557
I'll be honest I shouldn't have expected anything else.

>>49672536
It is entirely possible I've just had bad experiences.

>>49672617
Would you let me play an Oggr(bloodforge) It's basically an Orc or Human with some Ogre heritage.

Either that or let me refluff a half-orc as a fullblood?

>>49672648

Hobgoblins are the cool kind of ugly, you should have expected this.

>>49672617
Do you allow purposefully unoptomized or non-combat optomized builds?

>>49672650
That would be fine actually. Lesser giants (Trolls/Ogres/Hill Giants) are a thing. Greater giants (anything smarter than a hill giant) are mythically rare.

>>49672647
Is this a reference to The Black Company?

>>49672684
Sure, but you need to be aware you're in a mercenary company and may just die. Though not engaging is often the answer, sometimes you have to.

>>49672662
I like them in this setting as well. The goblinoids and their shitty soul bullshit.

>>49672690
>Is this a reference to The Black Company?
...maybe. That's what first came to my mind when I read the description.

>>49672684

It feels odd how none of the players can become a Quartermaster and invest in crafting.

Or invest in profession (camp follower.)

>>49672690
Shame this isn't actually going to be a thing then.

>>49672703
Yeah, being a mercenary in a world full of things I'm mechanically not meant to fight does not sound appealing to me.

>>49672729

You do realize camp follower is a polite way to say "prostitute," right?

>>49672703
>Sure, but you need to be aware you're in a mercenary company and may just die. Though not engaging is often the answer, sometimes you have to.

So...being a bastard is rewarded while trying to be a hero or actually do your job is punished? I've been wanting to play a Paladin for a while, but I guess this won't be the game for that.

So I have a drake as a mount I need to give class levels to. I want to focus on support and mobility so it doesn't compete with the actual damage dealers in my party. What class should it take levels in?

(Paizo material + Path of war allowed)

>>49672757
I thought it referred to any number of people that followed an army, Merchants,women/children, smiths, and prostitutes.

Also we'd use DHB's unchained martials

>>49672737
I mean yeah. Generally you want to be able to fight if your profession is war.

>>49672733
Honestly I sort of want to do it. Perhaps I will. I'll have to think about it.

>>49672712
Neat. I've never read it. I just like mercenary companies.

>>49672780
>>49672757

There is literally nothing wrong with playing a prostitute.

>>49672769
>So...being a bastard is rewarded while trying to be a hero or actually do your job is punished?
No, it's more about engaging smartly rather than just running in head first. However being a hero often requires making heroic sacrifices, which do often end in death unless you're the protagonist of some media.

> I've been wanting to play a Paladin for a while, but I guess this won't be the game for that.
Which would be fine as long as you're smart about how you plans things.

>>49672816
Your campaign has me fairly interested. I'd be into joining Dates and times allowing it if you ever get it off the ground.

Questions: what house rules do you allow?

So Roll20 has lost Soundcloud to its Jukebox. How do you keep ambience in your game using music now? Any other applications where a DM can put music on repeat for background music now?

>>49672987
I constantly say witty one liners to my group. Unrelated but I'm also looking for another game to join, my fridays just opened up.

>>49672175
Battle Mystery Oracles have the ability too
-act in surprise rounds, while rolling 2 d20 and choosing either for Initiative
-move their speed (any if they have more then 1 if I'm remembering correctly) as an Immediate action, letting them set up Combat Petrol or Full Attack after move
-Heal their self as a swift action like lesser paladins.

to name a few. I think others have strong options too, but if we're talking a Purely offensive Oracle then Battle is the way to go.

>>49672996

My fridays are apparently open too!

>>49672962
Crit success and fail on skill checks. That's the biggest one.

>>49673019
Why would you allow those?

>>49673027
Fun.

>>49672962
Crit fails are proceeded with another roll. If they roll a 1 or a 20 on their next roll, a crit fail effect happens. If not, then it is just a miss that ends their turn (even if they had extra attacks/actions available after the miss).

Crit fails resulting in wacky retarded "You cut your hand off" every 1 in 20 rolls ruins the game atmosphere and annoys everyone involved.

>>49673035
Well, as long as I can leap safely to another country with a single standard action.

>>49673027
Not him, but it makes sense. Every once in a while, a guy with terrible diplomacy can meet one of the few people that think like him and love him even though he sucks at speaking with people.

>>49673041

FUN WITHIN REASON.

>>49673052
Are you saying going from one country to another with a standard action isn't reasonable? And you allow wizards, for shame!

>>49672962

The Feat Tax reduction house rule is my groups personal fav, aside from that we mostly play base with the current GM's little touches.

>>49673049

>tfw Charisma 10 and nobody loves me

>>49673038
>it's just a miss that ends their turn (even if they had extra attacks/actions)

I played in a system that had this kind of shit baked in and let me tell you it made everyone's lives a living hell. Fuck that rule

>>49673049
Wouldn't that just be a 20 on the charisma roll with circumstance modifiers? Hell, you don't even have to roll against someone's diplomacy if you don't want to, which can easily be the case if you agree with someone.

>>49673038
>then it is just a miss that ends their turn (even if they had extra attacks/actions available after the miss).
Boy am I glad that I cast spells and don't have to attack to participate in the game.

>>49673063

I bet you kiss girls you faggot.

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>>49673102
Girls are gross!

>>49673078
That rule is a good rule. What the fuck are you on about? Are you saying that rolling a nat 1 should be a crit fail ("Your arrow plinks off the enemy and hits you in the eye, blinding you") rather than a miss and no more actions?

I don't understand your logic.

>>49673041
Players don't decide crit effects. That's your own shitty house rule.
And it keeps us from rolling stupid shit that we can just take 10s on. The fear of failure is great.

>>49673124
Oh, so it's just there to screw over the people that need to roll. Like non-casters. Got it! Not that you couldn't just take a 10 anyways, or that rolling the die takes more than 3 seconds.

>>49673112
You roll a 1. You miss. If you're forcing someone to "confirm a critfail" and they don't roll another 1, why the fuck should they automatically lose the rest of your turn? For what purpose?

The system I played actually did one worse: Crit fail meant you missed, fucked up and probably fell on your ass, AND you lose the rest of your turn. No confirms.

>>49673111

Girls aren't gross! Girls have pretty clothes and nice hair!

>>49673145
>The system I played actually did one worse: Crit fail meant you missed, fucked up and probably fell on your ass, AND you lose the rest of your turn. No confirms
So it was Pathfinder vanilla? Okay.

>You roll a 1. You miss. If you're forcing someone to "confirm a critfail" and they don't roll another 1, why the fuck should they automatically lose the rest of your turn? For what purpose?
Because they fucked up hard at aiming, but just barely didn't fuck up hard enough to shoot their eye out with their shotgun. Instead of getting a face full of their own lead, they accidentally fire too early and startle themselves out of future rounds.

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>>49673166
Their outfits and hair might be nice, but kissing them is gross gross! Anything a girl can wear a boy can wear better!

>>49673175
>So it was Pathfinder vanilla? Okay.
Huh?

>Because they fucked up hard at aiming, but just barely didn't fuck up hard enough to shoot their eye out with their shotgun. Instead of getting a face full of their own lead, they accidentally fire too early and startle themselves out of future rounds.
Ooh! Here's your (you)

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>>49673188
You think you're clever, but you're really not.

>>49673204
Oh, I don't think I'm clever, I'm dumb! I'm obviously dumb, because I play pathfinder and post here.

>>49673180

Girls are great kissers and have boobs! You need boobs for their clothes!

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>>49673175
>you have a 5% chance to be totally useless
>this is somehow a good thing

who the fuck would actually look at that and think it's a good idea.
Point me to the fucking rule motherfucker.

>>49672617
Now here is the final question. I'm adding something to this:
>Fighters/Cavaliers are replaced with DHB's Unchained Fighter/Cavalier, and The Scholar is an available initiating class.

Would people still be interested (interested in playing them in particular).

>>49673215
Boys can be great kissers too! And they have nice pecs! Besides, flat is justice, and there's nothing flatter than a cute boy!

>>49673233

Flat is NOT justice! Boobs are great and look great in outfits! Big boobs are best boobs!

>>49673225
Links to them, I can't find them in the pastebin? I might be interested in the Scholar.

>>49673144
The fuck are you on? Casters have to roll skill checks. You should never, however, be forced to roll a die without a reasonable chance of failure. Giving your failure consequences, and your great successes bonuses, makes both more interesting. Fuck up your knowledge religion check? Yeah, you've seen this red symbol, these guys worship that Hastur dude. Crit succeed your climb? Damn dude you're nimble, take another five feet up.

>>49673233
>>49673253
Kill yourselves.

>>49673257
DHB is excluded from the pastebin for some reason despite people saying to add him before.

I'll see if I can find a link to the scholar in the archive.

Here is the one he posts:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WKwyK10BvzqVb9M3lIJ0ZyraUNSuEr8y0QK6ML6d-6Y/edit?usp=sharing

>>49673270
This is so dumb.

>>49673273

That's not very excellent, anon.

>>49673253
There are many kinds of justice in this world. From some points of view, flat is just. To others, meat us a must. Don't pretend that breast size is as black and white as morality, it's a complicated topic!

>>49673286
Eh, I don't really like the facility stuff. Seems a bit a cumbersome and adventurers move around too damn much to carry an entire lab with them. The idea is neat on paper but doesn't seem all that great in practice and none of the abilities jump out as all that appealing.

>>49673400
And really, this should be called doctor since all the abilities revolve around anatomy and shit. I need to look at this more since nothing really jumps out at you concerning roles.

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>ITT

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>>49671163
I'm sorry that someone took my personal houserule thoughts as gospel. Sharing them in that discussion wasn't meant to cause that. Imo, someone shouldn't be installing houserules into a game without discussing exactly what they change and why they change things with the group, so that's a really shitty situation.

The hearsay that people had apparently shared was effectively a "quick fix" set of rules for some of the problems that Path of War that I think PoW has (Warders being just as strong as everything else while also being much tankier, Warlords being overly powerful and getting a ton of stuff on top of maneuvers, early maneuver damage issues). Though currently, I've discarded this and have been reworking my thoughts on it because of /exactly/ this issue; while the proposed houserules would definitely be a step down in power (and contrary to what >>49670931 says, Warders and Warlords would, imo, still be quite viable in comparison to similar-progression initiators), and I prefer a slightly lower-numbers game than PoW's base assumptions, it likewise is a step down in coolness.

Were I writing a full set of PoW houserules based on my personal opinions on how I'd like it to work, most of the classes would be full initiators, but more focused on maneuvers, like the Harbinger is, with some archetypes that give more expanded class features or subsystems and the 6-level initiator progression.

Notably, in my own group, we /do not use/ those quick fix houserules, because after discussion, the group preferred the more higher-power ones. I ended up playing a Hidden Blade/Eldritch Scoundrel and used a mid-initiator because I find those more fun, and others did other things.

>>49670090
>>49670281

While I don't agree that putting things in the pastebin gets them seen, I do agree with >>49671204. The patreon is VERY alive and well (thanks so much, guys), and it probably doesn't need to be in the OP any more.

I don't have a sighing image on this PC, so a porygon.

>>49673463
Didn't the boobs one turn out to be a girl?

Found this archetype for a Sylph witch, does it look any good, /pfg/?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IgjR0SY5dpWWjVA9Ll5O5aJSMbJ_S18wqjnHHxchKXc/edit#heading=h.9rkz7sebmzc4

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>>49673486
Yes.
We must all bow to the wisdom of our goddess

>>49673442
Team wise it focuses on buffing/debuffing. The facility is a bit combersome and if you get ambushed a lot or don't set up camp often (unless you get the upgrades that make packing/unpacking really fast).

>>49673483
I can see Warlords, but why Warders?

Maybe I'm shit at character op, but they don't seem that fucking tanky in comparison to everyone else. Heavy armor and can draw in hits, but other than that they seem pretty meh.

>>49673294
>Roll dice
>Things happen
This is the cancer killing PF

>>49673614
They have a not-insignificant amount of powerful class features (especially Extended Defense and the save/initiative boost), full BAB, a lot of "free" AC thanks to their heavy armor and QoL things for it, and a fairly good recovery method... That they probably rarely use, because they're full BAB strikers if played strongly. For a "quick fix" set of houserules, I'd rather give them slightly weaker maneuvers and keep the rest intact, which gets you a still rather strong class, but one that's more in line with the others.

It's not an idea fix though, as >>49671163 demonstrates. Getting higher level maneuvers faster is /fun/.

>>49673672
>a lot of "free" AC thanks to their heavy armor and QoL things
They don't? You eat a lot of shit for eating heavy armor and upping your dex bonus on a class that most likely won't have high dex unless you have disgustingly high pointbuy doesn't seem like that much of boon.

>>49673483

I wasn't talking in terms of viability, I was talking in terms of the fun factor you pointed out >>49673672

I wanted to actually play a tanky warrior who can use the cool strikes and stances for a reasonable amount of time in the campaign, which are slated to go to level 20. I've never had an opportunity to really try out the cooler late-game stances or strikes, and with these house rules being taken as gospel I never will.

>>49673725
"Free" AC in the sense that when building a character, ideally you get as much as you can without actually spending real resources, then stop investing because counters/miss chance/initiative is often a better defense.

A warder has a +9 armor bonus (+10 cheaply, more with Magic Vestment as the party levels) available to them from class features, while a Dex character starts with 4 "free" (chain shirt or leather lamellar) and a +4-5 Dex bonus, which is comparable and scales better, but the Warder gets it without needing to invest in Dex, or to invest feats into finesse.

>>49673801
Well, the houserules that got listed explicitly noted that Advanced Study worked as normal, letting you spend character resources to pick up the highest-level stuff (or retrain it into itself as you level up) once you get your core feats picked. If you're focusing on stances and strikes, then you likely won't have a lot of feats outright necessary to get, especially once levels 7+ come around.

>>49673816
>>49673801
But yes, it's definitely less fun, and while it's still a viable and strong class in that context, it's less good at what you, personally, want to do.

I'm sorry about that. I'd point your DM at these posts perhaps. If he/she thinks Warder is too strong, then maybe discuss houseruling things in different ways.

>>49673816
Yeah, but that's not really a big tip in the warders favor since you yourself said it scales way better and given the staggering amount of support dex stuff gets now with PoW on the table going Dex is just better anyway or most non warder classes.

>>49673852

Who cares about dex being good? Dex being good is the flatline, the "normal" for the martial side of Pathfinder. Making strength viable just makes it stand out considering how unusual that is, and when things threaten the "normal" it isn't hard to attack the thing threatening it.

>>49673872
What?

>>49673175
You would get more chances to do this to yourself the higher level you become. Several already-weak combat styles focus on number of attacks versus single big attacks, and that should be okay instead of being fucking punished.

If critfails are ever appropriate in any game, it sure as fuck is not Pathfinder or D&D.

>>49673884

I'm saying Dexterity is the best stat for a martial, but since it's been the best stat for so long that most people just think it goes without saying to pump it up.

But now that strength builds have options that make them very effective, people think strength needs nerfing (like Forrest) because they're not used to strength being that good.

Hell, you see it all the time in campaigns where the barbarian gets nerfed or banned by a DM that thinks they're too powerful. How many times do you hear stories about the dexterity-focused magus getting sideways glares? How about the strength-focused barbarian or slayer?

>>49673884
PF players are whiny babies who shit their diapers at the first sign of anything new and demand nerfs

(see the Stalker's Str-to-AC feature or the whole goddamned Gunslinger class)

>>49673918
>But now that strength builds have options that make them very effective,
I'd say that's still not the case

Path of War has One archetype of one of the weakest Path of War classes that helps give strength a leg up.

>>49673638
So we both agree that PF is a shoddy system? Good.

>>49673966
>Path of War has One archetype of one of the weakest Path of War classes that helps give strength a leg up.
I really want to like the stalker, but it just doesn't have much going on with it that's particularly interesting, and its recovery method is both boring AND dogshit.

I'd love to see an overhaul of it at some point now that DSP has been at this for a bit longer.

>>49673918
>people think strength needs nerfing (like Forrest)

... What? Since when?

I'm of the opinion that Dex-to-damage is a good thing, and that Strength is quite good as well, but needs help in other ways than just making it Dex. It still does more damage than Dex in the absence of Battle Dragon's Stance + Pouncecharging, and that's a good niche that's admittedly hard to improve on without making it /too/ much damage.

Warder has problems independent of Strength; a Dex-based Warder is incredibly strong, as is a Strength-based Warder. Warder gets more out of Str than other classes though thanks to its synergy with heavy armor.

>>49673996
I REALLY don't see why the stalker isn't full BAB.

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>>49674003
>Warder... too much damage
>Warder has problems
>Dex-based... incredibly strong

Well someone likes their caster martial disparity.

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>>49674013
They have more maneuvers than anyone else to make up for it.

>>49674003
>Warder has problems independent of Strength
Like what. I always thought Warder was the IDEAL Path of War class. It's strong, it's simple, and it's versatile in how it can be built it. If anything Warder problems are maneuver problems at large, not the class itself.

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>>49674044
>if a martial has problems, the person who thinks it does must think that casters must be better than martials

Can we stop perpetuating this meme?

Damage can and often IS a problem. How many times has this thread in particular complained about PoW's damage? When something causes it to be difficult to DM for, that thing is a problem. It doesn't matter if it's through damage or easy save or dies or powerful summons or breaking a narrative.

People can think multiple things are overly powerful, anon.

>>49673483

I'm also sorry about being the anon that mentioned the houserules in the thread, since they looked like they were in a tidy form okay for distribution with a disclaimer attached.

I didn't know about the broader context (and definitely not about the fact you didn't use them yourself) so your reply was very insightful, though, so also thanks.

>>49674092
Just let me have my fun!

>>49674064
I thought Mystics got the most maneuvers. .

>>49674092

Except you never hear about DMs complaining about spells yet you always hear them complain about characters killing things really fast?

>>49674121
You do? Also Magus is pretty up there in terms of "classes people bitch about".

>>49674121
Well yeah, while damage has some ways to get around it, it can still be a problem. Damage is a problem and spells are too. Just because spells are a bigger problem doesn't mean we can't try and also talk about the damage issue.

>>49674137
Which is retarded because outside of the Hexcrafter, its solidly a Tier 3.

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>>49674105
When PoW first came out, the Stalker had the most maneuvers.

They're both 3/4 BAB classes.

>>49674092
>When something causes it to be difficult to DM for, that thing is a problem.
Cantrips are a problem

Question:
How unbalanced would it be to have shields (Not bucklers) grant a character's Str mod to Reflex saves be?

For reference, any X in place of Y ability maintains any penalties from their original ability score in any game I run.

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>>49674105
... I'm not sure how I'm not?

>>49674087
Warder, like most PoW classes, is a bit overtuned. Full BAB, full maneuvers, incredible defenses, versatile overall, powerful recovery. It has very few (if any) weaknesses on the field of battle, if built well.

At the same time, it doesn't do a lot out of combat.

Within the context of PoW classes, I'd say it's the ideal PoW class. Within the context of Path of War as a whole, and trying to balance against things like hunters, magi, psychic warriors, spiritualists, occultists, and the like, the Warder comes out waaaay ahead in combat, to an often frustrating degree.

>>49674121
I'm not sure what forums you frequent or groups you play with that spellcasters don't get complained about, but the answer here is really obvious: killing something fast is harder to counter, as a DM, than spells. It's a double-edged sword that's a core of the caster/martial disparity. If a wizard is overpowered, a DM counters in plenty of ways and the player still has some amount of fun. However, wizards are overpowered in a shitton more ways.

Martials often have just one way of being overpowered: damage. Once you hit a point where it's troublesome to DM for and unfun to play alongside, you've probably hit a point where it's a problem. This gets talked about a LOT more because it's a problem every martial has, and one that's a lot harder to fix in practice; if you do too little damage, you're worthless. If you do too much damage, you're overpowered in a way that's hard to play around as a DM (because if the damage is outright countered, it makes you basically sit at the table and do nothing). Getting the damage juuuust right is the trick when designing things, but oftentimes, it's not pulled off (and even when it is, PF's rocket tag combat makes it... A bit weird).

>New group
>Be Unarmed fighter 1/Master of many styles 3
>GM: You should pick Monastic legacy
>Me: Nah, I don't think so, I gain no benefit from it and I'm really feat starved
>GM: Hurr minmaxer durr!
...so if you don't have useless shit you're a minmaxer now?

>>49674232
Pathfinder GM's are retarded more news at 11.

>>49674092
Oh fine, I'm sorry for teasing.

>>49674213
>hunters, magi, psychic warriors, spiritualists, occultists
Those are all spell casters though. It's not really a fair comparison.
>At the same time, it doesn't do a lot out of combat.
Giving them FUCKING PERCEPTION as a class skill would be a fine start. Maybe some more knowledge or something.

>>49674280
>Giving them FUCKING PERCEPTION as a class skill would be a fine start. Maybe some more knowledge or something.
Skills really aren't enough to get you up to par.

>>49674295
That depends on what you consider good out of combat utility, because that's as good as it's going to get without making them straight up spell casters.

>>49674197
In some games, yes.

In most games, I'd say they probably aren't. That doesn't mean it's not worth listening to the people who do find them problematic, but it does mean that all opinions should be weighed.

Another similar thing is at-will healing, which is a problem in some games and considered good for other games. I personally think that trivial noncombat healing is good for the game, but I prefer to leave it to individual DMs to decide how that will work.

>>49674251
It's hard to decipher tone through text. My apologies for taking it seriously if it was a joke.

>>49674280
>Those are all spell casters though. It's not really a fair comparison.
They're the spellcasters that the Warder is in the same "power band" in, of those classes as things that are mostly balanced in play for both combat and noncombat. It's slanted heavily towards combat, which is a bit of a problem that a lot of martials have.

>Giving them FUCKING PERCEPTION as a class skill would be a fine start. Maybe some more knowledge or something.
That'd be a start. As >>49674295 notes, skills often aren't enough to get a set of strong narrative abilities. Things like some of the vigilante's talents (like spontaneous batcave generation, arbitrarily having contacts in a location, and similar) would be more ideal for classes, I think. Abilities that can affect the narrative in a fun and significant manner but aren't spells, because the feel of a class is hugely important, as you (?) note here >>49674308

Warder's most got... Movement modes. Walking through walls if they spam Ghostwalk. Mind reading with Expanded. Not much else.

>>49674348
How does one make Non-casters have shit to do outside combat? Besides movements modes i guess.

>>49674348
>Things like some of the vigilante's talents (like spontaneous batcave generation, arbitrarily having contacts in a location, and similar) would be more ideal for classes, I think. Abilities that can affect the narrative in a fun and significant manner but aren't spells, because the feel of a class is hugely important, as you mentioned.

The issue is that a lot of people DON'T want spontaneous bat caves/random contacts. Shit there's a reason people are excited that legendary vigilantes is coming out with an archetype that kills all the social shit.
Warders can potentially
>bust down walls easily
>fly/hop with Fools Errand
>see invisible
>get scent
>hit ethereal
>short range teleportation.

It seems silly to complain that a combat class is good at combat and not good at not combat, a Warder can do acceptably well in some out of combat situations and even better if there skills got spruced up a bit.

>>49674380
Reworking skills would be a good option, but often isn't in the scale of a class.

Things like vigilante talents (perhaps tied to skills) would also work. Not specifically the vigilante ones, but ones like it. Things that give you some manner of narrative control if you want it. Making skills not so underpowered outside of Stealth/UMD/Perception/sometimes Knowledge would be nice.

>>49674415
We may disagree about this, but I think that you shouldn't be able to completely outpace everything else in combat (a significant part of the game) just because you don't want to play during the other parts of the game. I'd say that Warder would do acceptably well if skills were spruced up some, and can do fine in more freeform-RP-ey games, but the fact that they don't have a lot of utility isn't an excuse for being one of the strongest Strikers in the game. Even if you compare it to other "just combat" classes (which are often noted as being fine at combat but crap out of combat), it comes out way ahead in numbers... The one place that most martials really don't have problems.

4e is often unpopular here, but it had the right idea: "everyone is good in combat (because everyone takes part in combat), and everyone has options for noncombat, but isn't forced to take them."

>>49674450
>it comes out way ahead in numbers.
Isn't that EVERY path of war class? The problem seems to be maneuvers being better than 20th level rogue sneak attack by level 5. The issue seems like it would be resolved if you cut down on the d6's.

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>>49674380
Downtime and social events.

>>49674450
If I wanna play a defensive sword and board warder, most probably with stupendous strength and 2wf, what discipline do you recommend other than iron tortoise?

>>49674450
A while back we had a thing about a defense focused barbarian vs a offence focused warder.

By level 10 or 11 the barb was doing higher average damage while the warder had better defense and a slightly higher occasional burst dpr.

I'm not sure the claim "it comes out way ahead on numbers" has validity after seeing that.

>>49674450
>just because you don't want to play during the other parts of the game.
The issue with stuff like arbitrary contacts, free keeps,etc is that they fuck with character concepts fucking fierce.

>>49674481
Use a Nodachi and get Piercing Thunder, it's surprisingly-useful for the lower-level maneuvers. Eternal Guardian plays up the Big Scary Defender stereotype, while Sleeping Goddess is surprisingly-handy on a defender.

If you were to re-label all of the technological items to feel less Star Trek, and more like a branch of fantasy, how would you label them? If you wanted to make them more Gothic?

>>49674506
Alchemist contraptions,

>>49674490
That's why it's stuff like it, rather than identical.

Contacts and free keeps is perfect for a Vigilante, which is what they were made for.
People want N Jolly's stuff because of the realization that Vigilante is a generally good class to play even if you cut out the social stuff.

>>49674506

Weapons and armor powered by crystals soaked in Leylines.

>>49674511
>>49674506
Should probably clarify- What they are does not change much. What they're CALLED is what I'm thinking of.

>>49674474
Which brings us back to what the original "quick fix" houserules were: >>49670902

Not an ideal houserule and as noted multiple times by multiple people in here, not as fun for players of the classes, sadly.

>>49674487
How offense-focused were they? Optimizing damage with boosts and stances + multi-hit strikes? Traditioned into Elemental Flux? Archery, perhaps?

>>49674490
Sure, and as I noted, what would be good would be:
>Not specifically the vigilante ones, but ones like it. Things that give you some manner of narrative control
Narratively-powerful abilities. Vigilantes are examples of what martials, right in 1pp, are "allowed" to do at the high-end of narrative control, which is outright retcon things into the campaign in a way spellcasters can't.

Abilities that affect the narrative without being just numbers. Some other ideas might be rousing speeches, scaring fights into not happening, knowing more than you should (gather info, knowledge), going all Sherlock Holmes on a mystery, having Just The Right Tool For The Job... Basically, what skills should be doing, past low levels.

>>49674506
I like them as specialized magic wands.

>>49674523
So alchemical contraptions.

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>>49674538
>elemental flux?
>archery?

You say that like they're separate things!

That feel when Forrest is still the most insightful DSP spokesperson even when on a break from DSP

>>49674478
How much of that requires actual class features and not just skills/creative writing?

>>49674538
I'm not sure on the specifics, they did use Primal Fury on the Warder and didn't use the PoW archetype for the Barb. Archery wasn't used in favor of keeping weapons/tactics the same "pounce shit" kind.

Would Elemental Flux really impact the offense capability of the Warder? I get that Elemental Flux Stance and Enter the Vortex are good, but are the other maneuvers that much better when Primal Fury is on the table?

>>49674595
>How much of that requires actual class features and not just skills/creative writing?
None, but honestly what's wrong with that?

Seriously the issue seems to be "every class can't engage with every aspect of the game at once". and this is a problem for some reason.

>>49674634
>Seriously the issue seems to be "every class can't engage with every aspect of the game at once". and this is a problem for some reason.
Because every class can engage in combat, while martials can *only* engage in combat. That's the difference.

>>49674647
And Path of War characters can do out of combat stuff, just not as GREAT as classes practically devoted to doing out of combat stuff.

>>49674647
>while martials can *only* engage in combat

Say that to our Cavalier, who's taken on the role of Party Face.

>>49674506
>>49674511
>>49674521
>>49674538
>>49674562
Should really have clarified: Think more John Carter than Arcane.

>>49674634
True, nothing is wrong with classes not having mechanics to back those up.

>>49674647
I would say that the issue lies in the spell list options more than the spell casting itself. When you can teleport across a continent, hide in extradimensional spaces overnight, and get direct answers from gods/magic it begins to destroy balance

>>49674654
>>49674647
And really the issue here is giving maneuvers actually versatility instead of MOAR DAMGE. I've seem some people do some ridiculously creative bullshit with broken blade, thrashing dragon, and veiled moon out of combat.

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>>49674660
magitech?

>>49674595
At level 11, it just might, particularly when combined with Primal Fury for a pouncing charge or a Frenzy strike with 5-6 weapons or natural attacks.

>Eldritch Fang Flurry
>Level: 6
>Prerequisites: Two Elemental Flux maneuvers
>Initiation Action: 1 swift action
>Range: Personal
>Target: You
>Duration: 1 round
>Striking at your foes with elemental fury, you aim to disable his opponents in addition to harming them. After initiating this boost, all attacks you make for one round deal an additional 3d6 points of force damage and automatically overcome damage reduction. In addition, any opponent hit by one of your attacks must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 16 + your initiation modifier) or become blinded for one round. Multiple hits do not extend the duration of this blinding effect, though they do prompt multiple saves.

>>49674634
>this is a problem for some reason
It's a problem because if you have someone sitting at the table for an hour or more unengaged in the game because they literally have nothing to add to the game, it's probably not particularly fun unless they went out of their way to do that.

The issue is that everyone can fight. This isn't AD&D, one of the core concepts of 3.x was that everyone has a role in combat, or multiple possible roles. But not everyone can do anything else. It might not be in issue in some games. A lot of the time, it's not an issue in my own games, because of how freeformy they tend to get at times. But it's still an issue in the system.

>>49674677
>I would say that the issue lies in the spell list options more than the spell casting itself
That's definitely part of it, and the reason that some casters are considered balanced but some aren't.

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Sup, /pfg/
Can I get some more feedback and input on my homebrew class, the Empyreus?
Its designed to be a well-rounded class capable of covering offense and support with a few crowd control tricks.

Update: I now included 3 new archetypes
The Discordant is a more crowd control and offense oriented archetype
The Harmonist is a more support and healing oriented archetype
The War Weaver changes it to a Path of War class

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xQMlB45-UFEWCB2ffqoBUMhR-t4afSXLk29fgTJNVyw/edit?usp=sharing

>>49674708
>Think more John Carter than Arcane.
That's all skills+items which require work on the players parts unless you want to start handing out "I win buttons".

I mean, even the "GOD WIZARD" requires quite a bit of work and book keeping on the players part.
>>49674708
>particularly when combined with Primal Fury for a pouncing charge or a Frenzy strike with 5-6 weapons or natural attacks.
How are you getting 5-6 natural weapons on a warder? You don't really hear about natural weapon warders that often?

>>49674736
Frenzy Strikes attack with every weapon you've got, which can get terrifying. Armor Spikes/Weapon/Weapon/maybe other natural weapons from race. It's doable if you're building for damage.

Otherwise, you're probably better off with a pouncecharge in a Broken Blade stance (or Elemental Flux, for a bit weaker but still very damaging option), or ranged archery with Solar Wind/Elemental Flux as the go-to for damage.

>I mean, even the "GOD WIZARD" requires quite a bit of work and book keeping on the players part.
Yeah, god. That's frustrating as hell to play

I'm not 100% sure what the first part is supposed to mean.

>>49674708
But not everyone can do anything else. It might not be in issue in some games. A lot of the time, it's not an issue in my own games, because of how freeformy they tend to get at times. But it's still an issue in the system.
At this point it sounds like your trying to fix a GMing problem with mechanics.

Path of War classes are pretty decent place out of combat wise with minimal investment unless your game fucking REVOLVES around esoteric bullshit.

>>49674708
>It's a problem because if you have someone sitting at the table for an hour or more unengaged in the game because they literally have nothing to add to the game, it's probably not particularly fun unless they went out of their way to do that.
THIS

You'd think assholes would learn from games like Shadowrun that this is a really, REALLY bad idea, but nooooooooo, gotta continue going full retard.

>>49674708
Using Eldritch Fang Flurry might have been better than what the original had, though not by much I'd presume. It's depend on if the warder took a lot of multiattack options/pounce option/martial charge.

>>49674790
I'm not quite trying to fix a GMing problem with mechanics, but I do think that classes should offer similar amounts of noncombat utility in order to push the game structure in the right direction. Someone wanting to be engaged out of combat but not having the means to do anything relevant compared to their fellows unless you abandon the rules and freeform is a situation I've seen a /lot/ more than someone refusing to play a class because it has options for noncombat things they don't want to use.

It may just be a difference in game and play philosophy. I believe that it's better for the game to offer people the option to take part in the whole game, in varied ways depending on who they're playing, than to lock people out of large parts of the game. The Shadowrun Problem noted by >>49674815 is a huge frustration for me.

>>49674815
Yeah, probably. I'd say an optimized enough Warder can potentially outfight an optimized Barbarian... But at that point, both are hilariously strong in combat. Warder just has a shitton of other things going for them in comparison (ranging from other combat options to strong defenses to slightly better skills and free movement modes).

>>49674853
The Warder vs Barbarian also didn't factor in a full offense focused barbarian which would definitely tip the DPR scale toward the Barb, even with E. Flux shenanigans. Especially if you threw the initiating archetype at it too. I can't say that the Warder would out fight the Barb if that's the new competition, but it'd definitely be better outside combat, better on defense with better options to mix it up too.

>>49674192
And warlord gets the most 9th level maneuvers, so what?

>>49674478
the princess looks so damn bored there

Question: How big of a nerf/buff would it be to move all Conjuration (Creation) spells to the Evocation school?

>>49675635
About as much as it would be to move all conjuration (healing) spells to the necromancy school, which is to say: FUCKING DO IT.

>>49675615

>My butt hurts
>Are these two done?
>What's the Garundi even talking about
>I could be at home schlicking it to Tien story scrolls

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>>49675615

>>49675615
In another 5 minutes she's simply going to order her guards to execute the both of them and retire to her chambers for some tea and a massage.

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Had an interesting thought just now. Spells largely bypass armor in PF by aiming at Touch AC. Guns also bypass armor in a similar way, although range will limit this to 20ft or so. And we know that firearms slowly phased out armor entirely as they became cheaper and more widespread in military use, until armor became mostly ceremonial barring a few isolated instances such as dragoons, lancer cavalry, and eventually certain units during the First World War. AND we know that most people play spellcasters of some sort, making one wonder what percentage of people in any given setting are spellcasters.

All this together has me thinking: Wouldn't prevalent magic make armor fade from common usage like it did in RL? Does Pathfinder have some way to let armored classes use their full AC against spells? If not, how high can someone typically get their AC without the use of armor?

tl;dr: Magic makes Armor less valuable. In a non-traditional setting, how do you fix armor to be worth it or how do you keep the average Armor Class up without armor?

>>49675714
I suggest checking out 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, and its Defense Bonus variant rule, if you're GMing.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm

>>49675714
Spell casters are supposed to be fairly rare in the Pathfinder setting and most combat is done with large levies of peasants or soldiers with primarily non-magical weapons.

When mages and wizards do enter the battlefield they tend to do so as special units rather than as standing armies.

Remember that in real life longbows could also bypass armor, but it took many, many years to train up a good longbowman and so armor remained useful on the battlefield for some time after longbows had been introduced. Then consider that it takes even longer to train up a spellcaster.

When every peasant wields a gun, armor is fairly useless. However teaching every peasant how to shoot a lightning bolt from their fingertips just isn't going to happen.

>>49675770
Plus bows could not do so against plate when used in their standard fashion (long range high angle volleys). For the most part it bounced the hell off.

>>49675770
>Needing peasants to fight as your armies
>Not strategically nuking the enemy with magic
>Not summoning in armies for you
>Not mind controlling the enemy army to either fight for you or fight amongst themselves
Could Paizo be any more retarded?

>>49675762
Would using this and some sort of Armor as DR work well or would it be all sorts of retarded?

>>49675817
>Could Paizo be any more retarded?
If they are and they are they inherited it from Wizards.