Imperium Asunder

>>49544825
uh, well there is the Imperial Senate Planet. Im thinking of renaming the Senate the Security Council as well, as it wouldn't be so much a governing body but one dedicated to maintaining the semblance of balance and uniting against external threats.

Thoughts?

>>49544913
Security Council sounds too modern, not 40k-y enough.

>>49544913
>Senate World Names
New Hope
Nikea
Terminus
Terra Nova
Cassandra Prime

>From last thread
Yeah, so call it strategic level or what have you, but culturally, do you think it's cohesive and avoids the BEST EST AT EVERYTHING 5 EVER?

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>>49544947
>Terra Nova
The sheer audacity...

>>49544946
Securium Councilatus.

>>49544947
New Hope is a planet isn't it? Its far west, I think I used it in some write faggotry.

Terra Nova has a nice ring to it.

>Culture
My thoughts, being fairly critical
>rapid deployment force, that functions in loose ad-hoc groups, specialising in decentralised command and battlefield adaptation.
and
>they psychologically need to keep moving.
sounds better to me at least than
>feral barbarians with no cohesion whatsoever, who somehow, inexplicably manage to keep their supply chains running at peak efficiency.
>Empire and infrastructure is right up their alley
>fleet drifts as if disorganized, before suddenly, in a single coordinated moment, accelerating to max speed

The last one sounds better as a 1 time only ploy, make the enemy think the ships are drifting until you can get close enough. But i've never read the books so idk.

The last thing is that you are selling their red thirst as a bad thing, but its only ever a benefit to them, providing them focus (or a reason to at least devote themselves fully to focus) into various things, most notably the forge/psychics/espionage etc.

>>49545049
Pseudo-Latin for the win.

New Hope does exist out to the west, but I've seen it in a few places on a few maps.
Personally, I think it would be awesome if we could reuse Nikea, but I'm not sure where it is.

Sounds good to me. The feral barbarians bit had been how they might appear to outsiders on a bad day.

And yeah, I've yet to play up the negative of that red thirst. In part because I don't have a good name for it and I'm not sure what form it takes.
Most likely, there's that phase one red thirst like the BA or the RG Ash blindness. A reversible kill frenzy. The kind of thing that a marine recovers from covered in blood and not sure how they got there.

Then there should be a phase two Black Rage kind of deal, but I'm not sure what form that takes. I think it would be pretty neat if it opened them up to possession by seraphim, but that would be a later development.
In the heresy Era and afterwards, I'm not sure what their trip would look like. Siege of Tepectitlan, tearing apart Iron Hearts? Some sort of stranger atavistic trance?
Or maybe less a black rage, than a curse of the wulfen, wherein they go all were-jaguar.
Kind of like this last one. Creates a sense of shame of mutation that they'd hide into the 41st millennium. Of course, by that point, they'd have far stranger things to hide.

Whatever it is, you send them out to die a good death in combat as shock troops, since they're good for nothing else.

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>>49545049
>>49545162
I like the contrast of a culture that seems barbaric but is actually quite refined. I think you're both agree more than you disagree.

In another topic, for narrative purposes I actually think all marines in the Crusader States should abide by the Second Founding encouraged by Alexios' Codex Astartes, which should be one of the major points of contention at the Council. None of the Crusader States should be culturally monolithic or politically unified, and I don't really like the idea of some legions having successors and others just staying united forever. Even Warhawks, especially the warhawks, who have no unified authority figure, should be a hodgepodge of different chapters with different names, cultures, and paint schemes.

In my opinion, anyway.

>>49545162
If it helps, I call the darkness within the Hawks 'the Thrill'.

its different for everyone and dependant on the situation but largely, they hear a 'song' in their mind, which provides them focus and a sense of glory. Providing them confidence even in the face of deadly opposition. It lasts only as long as the threat does. but the feeling it provides is good, and so they some get consumed by it, seeking it out.

Essentially a feeling of 'you are most alive when in the most peril'.

>neat if it opened them up to possession by seraphim,
>neat
>neat to be possessed
Well that sure sounds heretical to me

>>49545241
>refined barbarians
oh yeah it definitely has a place, and if thats what Xun wants to go for more power too him. I thought he was asking for critism and offered some.

>>49545241
The hawks would never go for 'second foundings' though. Its entirely against their culture and belief system. Because they don't utilise the same force organisation as regular astartes.

They operate in fleets and battlegroups entirely according to their leaders whims. They are more akin to OU Warbands than they are chapters.

The only unifying aspect they have is that, they pool assets like their star-forts, who need to have a single body to govern them.

At best, you'd end up with a situation like the Dark Angels, where the Battlegroups (chapters) claim to be separate entities (ala DA), but would have transfers between otherwise associated chapters, all at subservient to a Supreme Grand Master, in the form of a War Council.

In terms of narrative, I don't think forcing a faction like the Hawks into chapters achieves anything either. But would welcome ideas as to what it would achieve.

My 2c.

>>49545358
>They operate in fleets and battlegroups entirely according to their leaders whims
That sounds like chapters to me


What you're essentially saying is "the warhawks would never split into fully independent groups, they're too independent for that!"

And that don't make no sense.

>>49545487
I think he means they're too independent to be organised into actual chapters, so they'll be more like warbands.

I do have two promts though:
1. I mentioned this last thread, but it got buried: What do the primarchs sound like? Is a primarch's voice loud and roaring or soft and piercing?
2. We need more on the Fists of Mars and Marcus Sinistrum. Since Fistsguy is sporadically here, we need to fill in some blanks ourselves. What do the legions think of the Fists?

>>49545691
>I think he means they're too independent to be organised into actual chapters, so they'll be more like warbands.
but that's effectively the same thing

>>49545705
Effectively, yes, but chapters imply a level of organisation, with only minor differences for the most part. Warbands are far less organised.

>>49545741
wasn't Raydon literally just complaining about someone having a "not actually organized in any way but it still fights really effectively" legion?

>>49545805
I think the problem there was more that the Serpents gave the impression that they were both disorganised and incredibly effective, not only on the battlefield, but outside of it as well.
The Warhawks are clearly warriors first and second.

Any thoughts on the prompts I posted >>49545691 ?

>>49545691
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoetGnTIjWY

Alexios speaks quietly so that people are forced to strain to hear him and consequently will listen to him more closely.

>What do the legions think of the Fists?

Alexios sees them as the jetbike superstore catalog

>>49545487
I can see why youre confused the major difference is the pooling of major assets and a single command structure with actual authority. Luckily you need not worry because as you say

>>49545705
As for this, you misunderstand both points.
the first was my interpretation of what Xun wanted, I wasn't complaining I was offering him my thoughts as he asked for comments.

Second:
as for this >>49545741, its not representative.

The Hawks ARE organised, just not in the same way chapters are. Think of them as highly divergent.

As for "still fights effectively" legion - they don't. I can think of a handful of times they have fought "as a legion" in both 30k and 40k timelines. They send hundreds where others send thousands. Because they don't fight in the same manner as other legionnaires. They don't hold ground, they destroy targets and critical personnel and then leave.

Keep in mind during the 30k timeline their average Astarte grouping is 60 marines (and flier support). That is literally 3 squads of Serpents.

The only time they do anything in bulk is void battles, and even then thats only relative.

I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding, if not ask away.

>>49545691
1: using the actors as a basis, I can see Raydon sounding akin to Titus Pullo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj8yq_urL5c&t=2m35s

Actually he has a bit in common with ol' Titus.

2: The Fists provide a lot of logistics to the Hawks and allow them sanctuary in Forgespace, hosting their Star-Fort which doubles as a Fortress Monastery. The two have developed extremely close ties since the Heresy.

The Hawks attempt to pay their way, by giving the Fists prize loot they recover from their raids.

So they see them as honoured brothers in summary.

>>49546129
But they don't just wander around the galaxy in groups of 60, surely. And even if they do, those are still really just particularly small chapters. The Warhawks split into distinct groups just like everybody else does.

>>49546129
Also it's not like ANYBODY wants to break up their legions into chapters. Nobody wants to suddenly have less power. It's an issue that's forced because it's necessary, not because people think 'well jee golly that's a swell idea let me just cripple my military might.' It's argued over heavily, it's enforced by threat of war, and it's a serious matter.

If the Warhawks don't split, why would literally anyone else agree to do it?

Plus, from a narrative perspective. Not founding successors means they're always just Warhawks. That's boring. With successors, they can have all sorts of divergent and interesting paint schemes, tactical deviations, cultural differences, etc.

>>49546129
>>49546203
I agree with Alexios. How would anyone, especially the Fists of Mars, be alright with the Warhawks not splitting up? Nobody would stand for it.

Even if you say that they're split, but they all call themselves Warhawks, that doesn't change anything. Guiliman specifically mentioned that only one of the chapters can use the original heraldry. Splitting the marines not only militarily, but culturally as well is a vital point of the Codex Astartes. (I'm assuming Alexios' Codex is identical to Guiliman's, or are there differences?)

>>49546381
>especially the Fists of Mars
But the fists themselves don't split into chapters

I mean they kind of do with the masters of different planets and it gets weird with rolling the mech into their political formation but still

>>49546203
>thats boring
Well maybe not for him?
I guess if its not your brand of fun it doesnt count.

>>49546203
>if the hawks dont agree why would anyone

Uhm not everyone does? Serpents, fists, and kor dont.

Also dont they spend all their time in the dark imperium as pirates? How are you going to force them?

>>49546203
>enforced by threat of war
alexios trying to force his shit on people again. Its why he was booted from thehektor heresy.

>>49546607
>>49546583
>>49546575
Woah guys no need to jump down his throat.

>>49546575
>>49546583
>>49546596
>>49546607
I guess the question becomes: 'Is the Codex Astartes a thing?'

I'd personally vote in favor, so that sucessor chapters can be a thing and the like. I'd get rid of the 1000 marines requirement though.

Let's also try to not make things personal.

>>49546652
The way it had been before this thread was that Alexios (the character) brought it up and tried to get it pushed through as common doctrine.

Some Legions were more responsive than others. Typically if they had a reason to disregard it, they did. If they thought it had merit, they adopted it. The Serpents took some and threw out the rest.

>>49546668
In the OU the opinions were mixed as well. It doesn't really matter to which degree they follow it, as long as it allows for successors to be created.

>>49546767
Not every ou has successors though. Salamanders and wolves dont.

>>49546779
That's not entirely true. The Space Wolves have one confirmed one, though it got wrecked. The fact that the Deathwatch chapter creation table even mentions the possibility of Space Wolf successors tells me that there are atleast some.

The Salamanders might have some, but that's never been confirmed. By the time of the second founding, the Salamanders didn't even have enough to fill one chapter, let alone create a second one.

>>49546806
>technicalities - they still don't have successors

And the Black Templars? How are they allowed more than the magic number?

Now we know which legion's dna grows there peckers and who's using steroids.

>>49546652
We already sorted this out, some of us are in chapters others arnt

>>49546880
By being spread out and never coming together. That way nobody can prove they're with more than a 1000. Doesn't really matter, they're second founding.

Like I said, the numbers are unimportant. All I'm saying is, is that the first founding legions should split into chapters, just to allow for cool successors. The actual numbers don't matter.

>>49546929
I think we should let him do it however he wants. If its just for fluff reasons they why can't you just talk about warbands or whatever?

We sorted this out fairly early. Not everyone wants to abide by Alexioses shitty codex.

Way I see it, the Crusader States and their forces are in various levels of Codex compliance:

>Angels of Light
Fully Codex compliant. Their Primarch wrote the book, they followed it to the letter. They've split entirely into Successor Chapters and have by far the most of them.

>Storm Hammers
Somewhat compliant. One of the major reasons for the particularly fractious state of the Storm Kingdoms is that the Hammers and their successors have never been able to agree on the matter of the Codex. Some of the Kingdoms are run by alliances of fully compliant Chapters. Some by Chapters that agree on the successor system but disagree on matters of composition and size, making them huge by Codex standards. Some are run by elements of the Legion itself that thought the entire Codex was total poppycock and refused to split entirely.

>Sky Serpents
Pretend compliant. The Sky Serpents always had semi-autonomous Tzolkin Chapters. Now they have more of them, but ultimately, they still consider themselves Sky Serpents and will rally with the Legion.

>Undying Scions
Pretend compliant, like the Sky Serpents. The Undying Scions agreed that power over Astartes should be decentralized, but the Scions themselves remain and lower Legion strength, with their successor Chapters often going beyond Codex limitations.

>Paladins of Kor
Non-compliant. Renegades and heretics, burn them!

>Fists of Mars
Non-compliant. Don't... don't burn them yet. They have the tanks.

>Crimson Warhawks
Non-compliant. It's not over, it's never over!

>Void Lords
Sorta compliant? They've split into lesser fleets to better terrorize the enemy, but they're all still Void Lords.

>Broken Blades
What's the Codex Astartes?

>>49546973
>let him do it however he wants
well that sounds like a good idea /s

>>49547054
Exactly. The idea of forcing them to be compliant by force is ludicrous. When half a non-compliant and the other half only pretends to care - they certainly aren't going to go to war with Fists of Mars and the Crimson Warhawks over something like that.

I think we're just talking past eachother at this point. Forcing the Codex is stupid and the Legions have varying levels of compliance.
The only really good thing the Codex does is allow for successors with different cultures and heraldry, which can allow for interesting stories, but having successors of some sort doesn't mean the legion itself has to be Codex compliant.
>>49547054 has the right idea

>>49544947
Maybe it should just be called Armistice?

>>49545358
Yeah, and to be a bit clearer, before Xun, they're very much the refined barbarians, since they don't have that central cultural influence. They keep that reputation after Xun in no small part due to the degree of difference between them and gothic standard culture. That's part of why Alexios' patronizing attitude towards his little brother grates so. That bit in that story about the duel with Eulodius captures it pretty well.

I suppose you might say that the barbarian stuff is what the Serpents themselves bring to the table. Chain axes and all that. They're sort of the opposite of the Bloodhounds.

>>49545959
And yeah, I'm trying to riff on the depiction of the White Scars and am having trouble writing it well. They're decentralized, not uncoordinated.

>>49547054
I agree completely.
I'd been imagining Alexios tries to push compliance and it doesn't get far. There's varying degrees of acceptance. And of course, as any good Jade Empire historian will tell you, Xun's Art of War is older than Alexios' codex.
I think it should be an issue at the Council of Titans, though. One of those points of divergence.

>>49547129
That could work.

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Okay so, Silent Sisters.

I'm thinking the whole order is simply referred to as the Ordo Telepathica, on account of how they pretty much deal with the inner workings and the maintenance of the Astra Telepathica.

Their hierarchy is something like this:

1. The Order Silentium. The top dogs, they run the entire show. They are the Sisters of Silence, and are 100% nulls.

2. The Black Abbeys. Each Black Abbey is run by an Matriarch, who is a Silent Sister, and a contingent of the Order Silentium. These are the centers for training, distribution, and testing, not only for members of the Ordo Telepathica but also the Astra Telepathica. Each Abbey has a number of Orders that serve under its purview.

3. Individual Orders. These can be Orders Militant, Orders Pronatus, Orders Dialogous, or Orders Antumbras. Usually one of each of these main Orders is grouped into a Chapel, and assigned to a particular noble house of the Astra Telepathica. They offer their services, but also watch for signs of corruption, and are a constant reminder that the Astra Telepathica's wealth and power is predicated on their service to Mankind.

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How's this for Graha'nak?

>>49548325
Seems pretty good to me.

On the subject of the Void Lords, I have to admit I still don't really get them. Are they loyalist Night Lords with more heavy ordinance?

Btw, what's going in with the wiki? Lots of links have gone someone has been added to the Primarch list.

>>49548668
Scratch that, I was on the wrong page. We should really get rid of that mirrored version.

>>49548668
Yeah they terrormarines pretty much. They do the whole shock and awe, psychological warfare thing.

They're more xenomorph Mehreens than edgy Dracula Mehreens though. They're at least partially specialized in close quarters and void support, doing a lot of boarding actions and such.

>>49548668
>>49548769
I'd been imagining that the process behind their terror is different from the Night Lords. The brutality of their judgement makes the Night Lords nihilists. The Void Lords start at that core of horror and go Nietzschean from there.

I'd also been imagining them as being the sort to bring in close range firepower. Sudden ambushes. A lot more like the Carcharodons in addition to the recorded screams.

>>49548916
Yeah, they actually made me think of Carcharodons before Night Lords.

>>49548325
Delightfully deadly. I do want to compare him to Corax and Kurze for balance, though.

So then legion rules wise, what are we thinking?

For comparison:
LA: Night Lords gives
Night vision
+1 to wound? When you outnumber someone
Pinning on death of the hq
Option to fall back instead of being pinned
5+ cover turn one

LA: Raven Guard gets you
Infiltrate or furious charge by unit
At the cost of tanks

40k RG
Boost to jump packs
Turn one stealth

40k Carcharodon
Cheaper melee weapons
Fear
Rage after you destroy that first unit.

So taking the Carcharodon vibe,

How about something like:
Fear
Rage after destroying a first unit
PE when within 12 inches of an enemy

The drawback is...
Something about more infantry? They can't decide to fail a test?

>>49549109
>>49548916
>>49548769
Right, so terror over horror?
Where the Night Lords skulk around and assassinate, the Void Lords rush out of the darkness and drag you into it, screaming and bleeding?

>>49549322
Pretty much, yeah.
Void Lord's spirit animal is the Xenomorph. They're unconcerned about justice, terror is what they are.

I also think a big part of it is Graha'Nak and the legion trial, which consists of pumping an aspirant full of scarecrow juice and seeing if they beat the crap out of their nightmares or not. Psychologically, I think it means that they're comfortable in that space and don't have the sadism of the Night Lords because they really don't care about you. If the terror enlightens you, great, otherwise you're just an object to be removed with all the emotion that a meteor gives to the planet that it smashes.
The universe is cold, brothers. Liberate tutame.

>>49549268
Could take LD tests on 3d6, take lowest.

>>49545243
Thanks.

Let's see...

>The Red Joy
Sky Serpents delight in their work. They are laughing killers, for what better thing can there be than excellence matched against excellence?
However, all this is overlay upon the deeper impulses in the Sky Serpents psyche. The Red Thirst equivalent. It really needs a better name, but Red Thirst is just so good, you know?
Most of the time, it manifests as a blood-hunger in battle, anything to get the red flowing, but violence and destruction at their most primal level drive the marine.
An infamous example is a duel during Ullanor, when a Sky Serpents praetor, after wounding a warboss, discarded his power sword and proceeded to beat the Ork to death with his gauntlets over the course of several minutes.

Typically, this sort of behavior can be controlled through the odd sacrificial rituals of Tepectitlan, including the infamous heart sacrifice, but also including devotional acts of shedding ones own blood. (Ala Mesoamerica.)

These unsavory rituals, which range from sacrifice of live captives to what outsiders see as ritual desecration of enemy remains, contribute greatly to the legion's dark reputation.

Usually, this keeps everything in line, though unintentional massacres of civilians in combat zones are far from unheard of.

This contrasts with the phase II, which I'm thinking of as some sort of psychic curse put on the legion by Anshul. It involves aspects of a flesh change and the brother in question becomes increasingly feral. Historically, marines in this state sometimes were posessed by Khorne, but lately the Serpents have taken to sanctifing them with Seraphim, in a holy fire ritual. Unlike the Oceyolotl (who are the Gal Vorbak equivalent), the Seraphim are lost to their rage and are sent to die in combat.

The legion generally keeps them secret, though I would assume the other legions know that Anshul did something nasty to them. Like how people know that the black rage is a thing, but no details.

>>49550030
So basically, I'm thinking at Prospero, Xun and Anshul have a duel, an inconclusive one, but in the process, Anshul somehow marks the legion, tapping the aetheric energy of Prospero itself.

When a legionary falls into the Blood Hunger, they can further fall into the flesh-change. It starts like a curse of the wulfen deal, with the marine growing longer fangs and taking on more jaguar traits. They also become more animalistic. If it runs it's full course, they eventually devolve into chaos spawn, but they seldom make it that long, since they're sent into battle to die a good death like the Death Company.
However, this state leaves them open to possession, which the Asurans exploited on a few occasions, turning the assaulting Serpents back against their former comrades.
In response, the Serpents have taken to proactively possessing them with Seraphim, but this is top secret and does little to actually stabilize the brother's behavior.
They fight and kill until they join the Legions of the Damned as demonic Jaguars of the Emperor.

So basically, they've got the flaw of the Blood Angels. It drives them to greatness, but at the end of the day, there's a chance that they'll lose everything they've made of themselves and turn into a raging beast.

>>49550030
>>49550166
This almost feels like the Iron Cage of our Heresy.

>dare you enter my Magical Duel?
>whoops, it was a trap, now you're cursed
>problem, Xun?

>>49550651
I like this.
Maybe he lures Xun down into the reflecting caves on the pretext that he'll explain what is going on, since Anshul believes that once Xun knows about the true nature of Chaos, Xun will join him.

So Xun goes down to the reflecting caves, to meet Anshul and send his message.
The two forces meet under parley, like the Night Lords and the Dark Angels do in that one story. Across the surface and in orbit, the two legions stand facing each other. There's even some friendly chatter across lines, but mostly everyone waits.
Xun sends his message, which is part of the traitor plan anyway and then he has his talk with Anshul. Suffice it to say that it doesn't go well.
There's a grippy vision of a thousand different heresies, ones where the roles are reversed, ones where Anshul and Xun stand united against a mad Oramar, ones where Xun bears the sigil of the Wolf and Anshul has but one eye, ones where the Warmaster is named Hektor.
And then they start fighting, the planet itself becomes unstable.
The two legions tear into each other, the world quakes.
Both have to leave the planet and because of Anshul's trap, the price of Xun's escape is the curse on his legion. It's the taint of Prospero and they're forever intertwined with that world.
That's why Xun goes there, thousands of years later, to ascend.

Something like that?

>>49547054
I wasn't really talking about codex compliance at all. I don't care if warhawks fight in groups of 60 or 5000, or whatever.

All I'm saying is, I want to be able to sit down and think "Okay let's write a _________ successor chapter for fun" and insert any loyalist legion.

>>49551059
Just have them use names they make for their groups and use tactics they picked up from where they fight and use what gear they looted from their piracy

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>>49550852
>ones where the Warmaster is named Hektor.

>>49552085
>>49550852
Seems good enough to me. Maybe heretical, but not bad.

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>>49546575
>>49546583
>>49546596
>>49546607
Thanks anons for the support, but lets as Jobs says no need to get personal.

>>49547129
I like it.

>>49548325
Seems familiar, pic related haha.
This is what happens when I shamelessly steal ideas from HH.

>>49552085

A Heresy you helped to build, I might add.

>>49552215
Hah. Well, I guess there's only so many ways to stat down sneaky Primarchs.

>>49550030
>Typically, this sort of behavior can be controlled through the odd sacrificial rituals of Tepectitlan, including the infamous heart sacrifice, but also including devotional acts of shedding ones own blood. (Ala Mesoamerica.)

So maybe ripping out Rubinek's heart saved Xun from the temptation of chayoss and pulled him out of the Beast Within?

>>49552085
Really? That's what sets you off? Not any of the other alternatives?

>>49552215
I like it, though I am curious to see what the LA Warhawks look like. Heck, their Row, too, since I'd think they'd have a way of making sure their planes came in on time without the primarch being present. Not that it really matters, fan rules seek to be universally despised.

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>>49548325
Remove infiltrate and blinding speed, add deep strike into assault and the shining spear ability to deep strike again at will.

**BZZZZT**
"SAVE YOURSELVES!"
*CRUNCH*
*BZZZZZZT*

I got a couple answers for this >>49544332 question in the last thread but I'm not certain everyone saw it. Thoughts?

>>49552779
Paradoxically the point where he was closest to falling also provided a means to prevent not only himself but his sons from falling also.

>>49552803
Pretty much giving the drop pod assault rule to fliers to ensure some come in on turn 1.
I think I did something else as well, but I can't seem to find my old document. I did a purge recently and might have deleted it.

>>49548325
>>49552868
What about allowing for multiple deepstrikes and doing a bubble of terror upon arrival / in combat.

Something like -3 to Ld tests as an aura, and causes enemy units within 6 or 12 inches of his deep strike to test Ld or go-to-ground. Or maybe move towards nearest board edge, or away from him.

Have him do the same terror test if he destroys a unit in combat or beats someone in a challenge.

Rules that emphasis his ability to materialise and scare the ever loving shit out of everyone.

>>49552984
I imagine that if they were there, they'd have to keep it a secret, because otherwise everyone would be wondering what the fuck they're doing there.

That said, if we're still going with Space Nun Initiates Imperial Waaagh! for the 13th Crusade then the other Crusader States should be getting pretty suspicious about what's on Amaranth when she emerges with the Burning Blade. Maybe not suspicious enough to overcome the initial rush of religious fervor at the sight of a spess nun wielding the Emperor's own sword, but given time, there might be questions.

>>49552984
The biggest issue I can think of is if you told the Custodes about him they would straight up demand to be in control. They wouldn't let anyone else be in control of the planet his body was kept on.

Im thinking they'd want to turn it into new-terra, where they have ultimate authority akin to the imperial palace. And if you tried to deny them, they would go to EVERYONE that would listen and the secret would at best be out.

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>The ???th Crusade (early, 4th? 5th?)
Rumors spread among the Crusader states (by REDACTED agents of course, just as keikaku) that the Scions actually managed to recover the Emperor's body long ago at the Fall of Terra. Every political leader in the whole of the East, from navigator houses to the high primarchs, is pissed at them for keeping such a thing from them. Varying claims are made that one faction or another should keep it.

When the rumors reach Alexios' ears (who by now is in deep seclusion) he immediately orders the Angels to gather as many Custodes as possible. Alexios presses the Custodes' claim to the Holy Sepulchur, in diplomatics at first, but eventually in warfare. He makes political waves by declaring that he will not assume high command of the war effort, but instead abdicate authority to the Captain-General of the Custodes, Amon Taramachian.

War between crusader states explodes like WW1, where networked alliances draw in all kinds of co-belligerents. Engerand sides with the Custodes out of idealism, angry at the Scions for keeping secrets. Xun sides with the Vigil, claiming that keeping such things secret with the Eyes of the Warmaster watching was a good idea, though really he just opposes Alexios because Imperium Minorum is his empire's largest rival. The Broken Blades stay to hold the tempestus front in case of an attack by the Warmaster, though politically they mostly side with the Scions out of fraternity. the brain of Marcus Sinistrum is consulted, and his binauric cant tells his Forgespace to stay neutral, trading forged munitions to both sides so that they could grow strong while others became weak.

TEAM 1: The Undyielding Vigil
Bigass Armada
Undying Scions with dreads
Sky Serpents and their Jade Empire
Lots of battle-hardened Vigil soldiers
????

TEAM 2: The Adeptus Custodes
Angels of Light successors aplenty
Varangir guard and other Imperium Minorum regiments
Some (but not all) of the Storm Kingdoms
????

>>49553358
>Gather the Custodes
What by force? The last thread had them telling the Primarchs as a whole to fuck off, why would they suddenly listen to a chapter master telling them to abandon their posts?

>>49553446
Because the emperors body is not being guarded properly what do you hair want heretics to come by and draw all manner of profane imagery over his tomb

>>49553358
If it matters at all, I had written that the leader of the Custodes now was titled "Lord-Commander" (thought the actual title doesnt matter too much. I also like Knight-Captain)
Because by the Emperors own words, only he can raise one to be the Captain-General, and since he is dead, the position can't be filled by anyone.

Small thing I know, but I think its cool to have a sort of regency for them, as they cling tightly to the Emperors original will.

>>49553446
I think Alexios is saying they go to the leader of the Custodes and let him in on the secret, so they don't command the custodes through force nor diplomacy - just bring the issue to light and back their own claim.

>>49553358
On topic, how do you see this ending? Do they find the body, is it moved to prevent discovery and then the Scions call out Alexios as warmongering etc, like how do you see this ending, not necessarily who wins, but whats the fall out.

>>49553510
I lie. I wrote it as Lieutenant Commander.

As I said though, the actual title is irrelevant. Its just a ceremonial thing that when Malcador appoints a new Captain-General he refuses the position saying that only the Emperor can name him that. So Malc says well fuck then, I dub thee XYZ

>>49553446
>>49553472
Yeah, the guardianship of lighthouses pales in comparison to the Emperor's remains, in the Custodes eyes. The Custodes by then would already be clamboring around, claiming they should have it. Suddenly Alexios shows up and backs them, and then shit is on for real.

>>49553510
>If it matters at all, I had written that the leader of the Custodes now was titled "Lord-Commander" (thought the actual title doesnt matter too much. I also like Knight-Captain)
>Because by the Emperors own words, only he can raise one to be the Captain-General, and since he is dead, the position can't be filled by anyone.
That's cool, I like it.

>how do you see this ending?
That's what I'd like to discuss. Hold on I'm drawing a map.

>>49552868
>>49553022
I think it would be better to build his rules to synergize with the LA rules would be more fruitful.

>>49553358
I like where this is going.
Though I can't really imagine anyone actually daring to fight Custodes. I think the symbolism of the Custodes is that powerful.
I'm imagining a weird scene where the Serpents are fighting the Angels and a Custodian appears and they just stop fighting. Yes, the Custodes failed, but they stood in his light. They serve the realm faithfully to this day. To take arms against them is heresy.

(Then again, if I read >>49552984 right, there was already a small squad of Custodes at the vault, so I'm really thinking that the Custodes are being spoken for by the legions and don't actually make an appearance until the end.

>>49553615
>Hold on I'm drawing a map.
Perfect Alexios.

"We have war plans to discuss"
"shhh almost finished my map"
"but my lord, the orks are approaching"
"almost..."
"my lord, they are at the gates"
"almost...."
"They have breached the city!"
"done! what? oh yeah send more jetbikes"
"As you command, my lord."

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>The March of Angels
The Angels make a new #th founding, chartering a whole bunch of new chapters for the war effort and mustering quickly. They move a sizeable force westward into the Vigil in what is called the March of Angels. Battles in this front are mostly rapid-assault jetbike forces conquering worlds, then Varangir auxiliaries building forts with void shields to hold those worlds. This front moves very fast.

>The Grey Wastes
The Grey Stars are a clusterfuck of loyalties that are intermixed like oil and water. War breaks out and almost everyone is fighting multiple enemies independently, with very little unity of command. This front is fucking hell.

>The Stormfront
Many of the Kingdoms of the Storm in the north choose to side with the Custodes, and when the Jade Empire declares for the Vigil, the Storm Hammers and their auxiliary squires attack. Lots of very serious large-scale battles between two Astartes nation-states at the height of their strength.

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>>49553646

>>49553641
The two ideas I think are mutually exclusive.

You can't have them being guarding the remains AND later find out the that the Scions have it.

As I posted here >>49553056 if you give them knowledge about it (which is fine) then they would want a big contingent on the planet, and would want authority over the tomb in the same way they have authority over the Palace. Maybe even extending to the entire planet.

If we go with a contingent guarding the body the whole time, I think it makes more sense to keep the Custodes out of the battle. The Lieutenant Commander is already the Speaker/Consul for the "Securium Councilatus" (Not actual name, name pending) so he would be able to bog down discussion fairly effectively.

Which might be another reason it escalates to war.
But in this scenario, the Custodes wouldn't take to battle - they would remain 'neutral' but secretly would have known all along and are just trying to figure out how to make the whole situation go away.

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>>49553728
I think we should forget the suggestion that they were guarding it already.

The end state of the war, I think, should be that the Custodes are given command over the catacomb planet where the Emperor's remains are kept, and they guard it 4eva after. We can call it the Holy Sepulcher.

>>49553682
Grey wastes description doesn't match up with the map unless im wrong?

Description says its confused with everyone fighting everyone but the map has only the serpents and vigil who are on the same side?

>>49553755
Well ill wait out on Sarco in that case, I know we don't have any rules and such about how to determine what is in and what is out, but I think as he posted his version of events first we should wait before just overriding it. Get his opinion/amendments.

>>49553755
>Holy
>For a king of of men
Silly religious folk.

>>49553808
Holy just means separate or different. Holy Sepulcher essentially means "THE Sepulcher"

>>49553829
What really? No way. For reals?
Is this another case of words changing there meaning over time?

What. I actually can't even. Imma google this.

>>49553808
>Get his opinion/amendments
I'd like it if the crusade didn't really amount to anything, because as we've already mentioned, the 13th crusade starts when some avatar comes to Amaranth ostensibly to have an audience with Sarco (despite his vegetative state) and emerges with the Burning Blade.

>Silly religious folk
I'm sure that a crusade such as this would cement the Scions' negative opinion of religion and also reinforce why they need to keep the Emperor's body: to keep others from using it as a figurehead and (in their minds) disrespecting the ideals that Emps fought for.

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>>49553930
I'm thinking the war is bloody and violent and expends a lot of built up steam in the crusader states. In the end, everyone is a lot leaner, but still standing.

The idea really just came about as a way of thinking how the Custodes got to the state where they were guarding the Emperor's tomb, so I don't think our ideas are mutually exclusive at all. I'm just trying to build off of it.

Also if the Angels and Custodes fight alongside one another maybe Alexios can learn how they make those awesome flying rhinos.

>>49553930
>>49553755
>>49553641
Taking away from these and unifying all of them.

1. Warmaster tricks people into thinking that someone / scions have the body
2. Alexios learns about it goes to custode captain and is like, lets get this mofo
3. Custode is overtly like 'for sure' lets go through the proper channels
4. Custode secretly sabotages proper channels having been apart of hiding the body on amarath
5. On amarath the body is held in a tomb city under the total authority of the custodes. the even sarco is considered below them when in the city.
6. War breaks out as Alexios gets fed up with bureaucracy
7. everyone picks a side, Custodes stay neutral but secretly work to get the body out of amarath so that should it fall, they wont be implicated in the discovery
8. Once this has been done, the Scions call for an end to the fighting, being like "hey bro, come have a look we arent hiding anything *shifty eyes* - Alexios, and a few custodes go to investigate the planet. Find nothing.
9. Once its over either the body is taken back to amarath or set up in a super-secret super-defended planet and authority is given over to the Custodes.

The problem with the later is now instead of a small contingent secretly guarding the body, now you would have a large contingent that previously had another job - they would just disappear, which is a cause for serious alarm. So I think its better to return the body and small detachment.

>>49553998
People have said they aren't cool with the Custodes actually going to battle.

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>>49554044
>People have said they aren't cool with the Custodes actually going to battle.

But it's so cool though. How can soldiers be cool if they never fight anybody?

>>49553930
Huh. That might be a bit odd, since the Serpents would want to venerate the Emperor. Which would piss off the Scions.

>>49554089
Fight the traitors?
I'm thinking you might have something funky go down when Anders murders Alexios. Does Alexios run with his Custodian Guard? Or do they not roll out for internal matters?

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>>49554044
>1. Warmaster tricks people into thinking that someone / scions have the body
Except it's not a trick
>2. Alexios learns about it goes to custode captain and is like, lets get this mofo
>3. Custode is overtly like 'for sure' lets go through the proper channels
cool
>4. Custode secretly sabotages proper channels having been apart of hiding the body on amarath
>5. On amarath the body is held in a tomb city under the total authority of the custodes. the even sarco is considered below them when in the city.
I was actually suggesting the body was housed on a world other than Amaranth, a quiet secluded place that doesn't have people everywhere. A hidden shrineworld.
>6. War breaks out as Alexios gets fed up with bureaucracy
>7. everyone picks a side, Custodes stay neutral but secretly work to get the body out of amarath so that should it fall, they wont be implicated in the discovery
>8. Once this has been done, the Scions call for an end to the fighting, being like "hey bro, come have a look we arent hiding anything *shifty eyes* - Alexios, and a few custodes go to investigate the planet. Find nothing.
I don't like this ending. I was kinda thinking the Emperor's Tombworld would become the >>49544913 senate planet, run by the custodes. Like maybe before then nobody could really decide on a good place.

>>49554089
The reason for the custodes to go into battle should be very serious as in do or die

>>49554151
>someone stole the Emperor's body from us and hid it for centuries
>not serious
they'd be so fucking pissed dude

>>49554139
The Primarchs / Heads of state SHOULD NOT have a Custode bodyguard. That is a horrible idea.

They should be protecting the Lighthouses / Emperors tomb, and having their leader in the senate/council thing.

>>49554114
The Scions wouldn't refuse help from the Serpents, but they wouldn't tell them that they actually have the corpse for the same reason that they resist Alexios' demands to check. Speaking of, it's probably pretty privileged information that the big E is on Amaranth, so only members of the High Council even know that he wasn't lost on Terra.

>>49554180
agree

>>49554163
Except that as >>49554044 and Sarco have it, the Custodes know about it.

They wouldn't be mad at all, they would be annoyed that others found out.

>>49554185
I'd go the next step and say no-one outside of the guards & key Scion personnel should know. It should be a huge mystery as to how the Warmaster found out.

>>49554185
Ah, gotcha. So the Serpents step in because privacy rights, I suppose. Moment they find out that there actually is a body, though, I think they switch sides.

>>49554206
>Except that as >>49554044 and Sarco have it, the Custodes know about it.
I'm still sort of suggesting something different. That the Custodes didn't know until X time, a war broke out, and then they got into the state Sarco originally suggested, where they guard his tomb.

You guys seem to be reading it differently, as "the custodes were guarding it, and then a war happened for no reason, and then the custodes guarded it forever"

>>49554206
>how the Warmaster found out
I was considering writing something up about a loyalist ship stranded in the Amaranth system for X reason saw a custodian or something related to them and got annihilated as soon as the Scions found out. Perhaps there was an agent of the Eyes aboard that escaped.

>>49554243
The consensus seems to be against that.

And even if it did work out that way >>49554241 the serpents just switched sides making it a bloodbath.

If the Custodes are already guarding it how can Alexios fight a war to make it so the Custodes are guarding it?

That don't make no sense.

>>49554346
Because the Custodes don't let anyone know they are guarding it. So they publicly have to be outraged. But also have a unique power within the senate to slow down proceedings. Alexios rages and escalated to war.

>>49554145
>>49554243
>>49554346
I'm in favor of consensus and agreement but here's my rebuttal

1. Scions recover Emperor's body and keep it secret
2. Warmaster lets secret out
3. Custodes say they should have had the right to keep it
4. Alexios agrees, fights war
5. Custodes take over Emperor's tomb on Amaranth
6. Sarco's original post is now true

I'm talking about how the custodes got there in the first place

>>49554419
That literally does not make any sense. The secret is out, the Emperor's body was captured and is being guarded on Amaranth. If that secret gets out, it wouldn't stay secret that those guards are Custodes. The entire crusade idea does not work if the Custodes are already guarding the Emperor.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but this weird compromise literally makes no sense.

>>49554465
Your post had them find out that the SCIONS had the Emperor. Which was true. What wasn't let out, was that the Custodes already knew and were part of the secret.

The Warmaster doesn't have to know EVERYTHING. Its pretty fucking incredible he found out the most closely guarded secret in the vigil in the first place.

>>49554439
And why would Alexios let the Scions keep it? How does that fit with his character AT ALL

how about the scions kept the tomb a secret because they didn't want chaos to come and try defacing it or worse stealing the emperors body and if a large number of custodes were to move to some random world it would be suspicois and possibly reveal the location

>>49554509
>Your post had them find out that the SCIONS had the Emperor. Which was true. What wasn't let out, was that the Custodes already knew and were part of the secret.
Why would the Custodes start a fucking war to get something they already have?

>>49554509
>And why would Alexios let the Scions keep it? How does that fit with his character AT ALL
I'm talking about letting the Custodes keep it.

>>49554044
I think this may be a little convoluted.

How about

1. Warmaster does his tricks, sprinkles evidence of the Emperor's corpse being on Amaranth, presumably in the hopes of getting to it through the resultant Crusade

2. Alexios and the Custodes are furious, demand that the Scions prove they done have the Master of Mankind stashed in their basement. Scions say they don't have to prove shit fuck off

3. WAAAAR. Storm Kingdoms side with Alexios, Jade Empire with Scions, Forgespace and Protectorate are neutral though Kor aids the Scions under the table, because he doesn't want Alexios gaining a load of power through conquest

4. Lots of fighting etc, eventually the Scions reach out to the Custodes and tell them the truth, but assert that Amaranth is the most fortified of fortress world and there's no better place for E Money's body

5. Custodes grudgingly agree on the condition that they post guards from their order there. Scions pretend to finally accept a checkup and the Custodes report no Big E, much to Alexios' embarrassment

6. A clandestine 'show' is put on for any spies on Amaranth to suggest that the corpse is being moved, when it's in fact just being entombed deeper underground

>>49554570
I can agree to this compromise. Thanks VANTH.

>>49554570
I'm with you until 5 and 6. I think after the war it shouldn't be a secret anymore.

>>49554556
Jesus you keep changing your shit.
How many people have said now its fucking Alexios who starts the war, not the Custodes. The Custodes try and prevent it. Jesus.

>letting the Custodes keep it, on Amarath. The Scion planet. Oh yeah, I can see how Alexios would totally be okay with that /s

>>49554570
This is cool.

>>49554607
of course you do.

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>>49554636
>>letting the Custodes keep it, on Amarath. The Scion planet. Oh yeah, I can see how Alexios would totally be okay with that /s
>on amaranth
>amaranth
>literally not reading a word I post
I'm talking about it being somewhere other than amaranth after the war, somewhere in the Grey Stars, as a neutrally owned world where pilgrims and shit can venerate the Emperor.

I wish you could filter anons

>>49554724

Don't you want new people to come in? Or do you want this to be an insular circlejerk? Because if it is the latter, you'd probably do better getting off 4chan and going to a more secure place.

>>49554724
Ah.... Please see YOUR post.

>>49554439
>5. Custodes take over Emperor's tomb on Amaranth

ON AMARANTH

>>49554793
It doesn't seem like you're a new person, I get the sense you're the same persistent anon who talks shit

>>49554802
What the fuck ever, dude. I'm telling you my idea. If you want to pick it apart, have fun. I don't care anymore.

>>49554805
There is at least a few nameless anons posting. Im working with the idea of 4.

Im trying to get sherlock on them an figuring out who's who based on writing style.

It has proved... inconclusive.

>>49554815
In regards to that post anyway, I think you either wrote it wrong, or forgot you wrote it because it does seem to say they'd keep it on Amaranth.

In any case VANTH provides a great solution here, which I think provides for everyone.
>>49554570

>>49554848
I'm sorry but the narrative makes literally no sense to me. You guys are saying that the Custodes literally already have everything they want, and yet for some reason they get pissed and side with Alexios to fight a war where the end result is *literally* exactly the way things were before the war started.

What the fuck is anyone's motivation in that narrative? Why the fuck is literally anything happening? It makes. No. Sense.

>>49554883
>Alexios and the Custodes are furious, demand that the Scions prove they done have the Master of Mankind stashed in their basement.

>eventually the Scions reach out to the Custodes and tell them the truth, but assert that Amaranth is the most fortified of fortress world and there's no better place for E Money's body

>Custodes grudgingly agree on the condition that they post guards from their order there. Scions pretend to finally accept a checkup and the Custodes report no Big E

It sounds like the Custodes had no idea that Emps was on Amaranth until the Warmaster's agents disseminated information about it. Then they agree to secretly guard the body for a quick end to the conflict.

>>49554931
>Then they agree to secretly guard the body for a quick end to the conflict.
How can it be a secret if it's the end of a war which consumes literally the whole of the civilized world (as far as crusaders are concerned.) Do people think the war just...stopped?

>>49554985
it might be better to drop the secret stuff and just agree to joint guarding of the tomb after the fighting gets very intense and the losses start to pile up

>>49554985
The Scions agree to allow the Custodes to check Amaranth for the Emperor's body. They report back and say nothing was there. Presumably, the Angels of Light believe them. The Custodes leave a group to guard the Emperor in secret.

>>49554883
Ill assume you aren't referring the Vanths. If you are, then im the confused one. On that premise.

The Custodes know, and are actively helping the Scions in their protection/hiding of the Emperor.

Alexios finds out the Scions have Big E, he goes to the Custodes (and everyone really).

The Custodes FAKE outright, they have known the whole time. But don't want to let on that they knew. so they PRETEND to back Alexios politically. SECRETLY sabotaging political attempts to resolve in an effort to delay.

Alexios is fed up with the politicing and moves to war.

They DO NOT go into war with him. They make a public show of remaining diplomatic.

Once the Emperors body is moved, they PUBLICALLY convince the Scions to show they don't have the Big E (which they dont anymore)

Once the whole thing dies down, they return the Big E to Amaranth.

Youre assessment that they have everything they want is correct. Alexios fucks that up for them, but they have to pretend to be on his side.

The motivations are:
- Custodes, keep the Emperor secret and safe.
- Alexios, religious fanatism.
- Scions, as Custodes
- Everyone else - various political/religious reasons

I think it does make sense, I just prefer Vanths explanation.

>>49554985
As for that in relation to Vanths explaination. The War stops because the Scions prove that they don't have it. To continue would be stupid. The Custodes themselves say the Scions don't have it. The Warmaster is known for being tricksy.

It doesn't take a genius for someone to throw out there "maybe we got played".

>>49555013
Secrecy is generally the best line of defence though.

I mean, you can't plan an raid on the tomb if you don't believe it exists for one, and even if you did believe, you dont know where it is.

>>49555016
I'm sorry dude but I think that's really really dumb

>>49555045
if war was started over it the cats probably out of the bag I don't think you can just go ''woops it wasn't here'' over something like the emperors body

>>49555027
Like for real that's an absolutely retarded clusterfuck of a war narrative. The Custodes would not let the world fucking burn just to avoid some bad PR.

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>>49555045
Nobody's just going to take their fucking word for it, dude. How the fuck do you prove to the galaxy that you DON'T have something?

How the fuck does any of this make sense?

Furthermore, how the fuck does any of this seem interesting or good to you guys?

Am I taking crazy pills? Is this Bizarro world?

>>49555117
last I checked it was a ploy by the Warmaster for a crusade.

>>49555117
>nobody's going to believe the Custodes
Didn't we just go over how much everyone respects them for standing in the Emperor's light and shit? I don't see why they wouldn't believe them.

>>49555136
>everyone respects them for standing in the Emperor's light and shit?

What? No. Everyone hates them. Half the people in the CS think it was a Custodes who killed the Emperor in the first place.

>>49555155
How the hell did that rumor happen?

>>49555168
The Warmaster was disguised as a Custodian when he stabbed the Emperor in the back, but from what I understand there were like three other primarchs in the room at the same time, so I don't think that a rumor like that would exist.

>>49555062
Considering the Warmaster is known for false information I think its actually pretty plausible.

I mean, its almost the same idea as the Oathsworn censure. Find a snippet of truth, twist it, present it to others. Let them do the fighting. Its his thing.

>>49555085
Like I said I prefer VANTHS, but that is the story that was presented, and it does make sense - I was trying to clarify for you.

>>49555117
You invite Alexios to have a look around. You let the Custodes lead an investigation that runs for decades (but now they are in on it so obviously it shows they dont have it)

>>49555117
It seems awesome to me. I think Vanth had a cool idea that plays to (almost) everyones idea of how events would turn out.

>>49555136
Especially since A: their loyalty to the Emperor is beyond reproach. (Alexios would most likely assume this carrys over to his version of events) B: You straight up can't argue with them. If they say its not there, then what? You call them liars? C: They were legitimately on the aggressors side. Its not like an friendly or even impartial party said it, the other side said it.

>>49555168
Warmaster!

I donno, Vanths version of events works for everyone I think (except Bizarro Alexios perhaps) But even then you get to have your religious crusade. The only difference is the publicity of the Emperors Tomb.

>>49555187
>but from what I understand there were like three other primarchs in the room at the same time, so I don't think that a rumor like that would exist.

Klaus saw, but he's dead. Engerand saw, but he's terse about it. The Custodes saw, and they naturally don't want to talk about it.

Everyone else in the entire galaxy has to rely on rumor alone.

>>49555203
>You invite Alexios to have a look around. You let the Custodes lead an investigation that runs for decades (but now they are in on it so obviously it shows they dont have it)

You could run the most thorough investigation that has ever been run and it still wouldn't be enough to convince literally anyone. Nobody is going to believe the Scions don't have it after they just fought a fucking war over it. They simply will not accept it.

>>49555219
I'm fine with some people still thinking (correctly) that the Scions have Emps' body, but I think it would widely be considered a conspiracy theory spread by agents of the Dark Imperium. Perhaps some participants in the Ninth Crusade are spurred by old grudges that began in the fourth (or fifth)

Where'd Xun go? I want to hear his input on this.

Nevermind the fact that the Custodes patently objectively would not go along with a galaxy-spanning war just to save face and keep a secret.

Why are the Custodes on Alexios' side at all? Why would straightforward, honorable, singleminded warriors concoct some elaborate plan to kill trillions of people for literally no gain?

When the massive invasion force comes knocking on Amaranth's door, does anyone honestly think they would just look around, go "WELL I GUESS IT AINT HERE" pack their shit and go home?

If the Custodes already have the Emperor's body, then that's it, full stop, idea over. No Crusade would take place. You can't cut out the single reason for the entire crusade happening and then still keep the crusade.

>>49555219
I see it playing out like this.

> You have the body
No we dont
> Yes you do
No we dont
> Prove it
How? We dont have it. You cant prove a negative
> Prove it or we invade
Are you insane? You certainly sound insane
>Dont change the subject. You have the Body
No we dont!
>Thats it, mobilise the troops
What? God damn. Assemble the fleet
***Wars***
(get custodes on side)
How about this, come to the Amaranth, The Custodes can look around for as long as they need. But you wont find anything, because there is nothing to find
>HA! So you admit it
What? You are actually crazy
>Custodes, with me! We will recover Fathers body
Custodes: Nope, nothing here. Must have been the Warmaster playing his games again.
>WHAT IMPOSSIBLE, ILL NEVER STOP
*** support crumbles away with the loss of the custodes, Alexios looks more and more insane ****
>Fine, maybe it was the Warmaster. But im watching you.

>>49555307
That's a shit story though

>>49555306
Bro, you're still hung up on the original idea. If you haven't already go and read Vanths. That what we are running with now.

Actually, what you're saying here
>Why would straightforward, honorable, singleminded warriors concoct some elaborate plan to kill trillions of people for literally no gain?
Demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of even that anons original post.

>>49555319
Agree to disagree I guess. But I think at this point its picked up some traction.

>>49555371
>Agree to disagree I guess. But I think at this point its picked up some traction.
If the end state of your story is *literally exactly* the beginning state of your story, that's a shit story. Nothing changed. Why even bother?

>>49555408
All episodes of (insert episodic show) are shit.
All comics are shit.

That is retarded. Plenty of stories have nearly identical start and end points, they focus on CHARACTER development. You seem to think that having a civil war would not result in a massive change in the political climate, hell it could just set up for a massive chaos invasion. It could set up closer bonds between factions that fought together. Hell the amount of damage we could inflict to one or both sides during this could change their disposition for the next thousand years. Having to regroup from losses.

>>49555307
This plays out Alexios literally losing his mind to religious fanaticism.

You are setting up a false dilemna. Its either this OR ENTIRELY POINTLESS.

Maybe there is a middle ground? Perhaps. Maybe. Possibly. Maybe people find an appeal in what has been presented. Nah who am I kidding, thats impossible. Its got to be entirely pointless you hit the nail on the head for that one.

>>49555249
Grad school called. I'll look it over when I get home. Looks like a shitstorm.

>>49555472
>All episodes of (insert episodic show) are shit.
>All comics are shit.
Yes.

Why would the Custodes, who literally just fought a full-scale galactic war to *defeat* the Scions, just suddenly land on Amaranth and go "oh you were right all along let's just do literally what you were doing that made us declare war on you in the first place.

If the Custodes are pissed enough at the Scions to *GO TO WAR* why would they just, for no reason whatsoever, end the war and set up camp with the Scions?

Alexios would not just suddenly go "oh well I guess I was wrong harumph war over." and the Custodes would not lie to the entire galaxy to side with their enemies for no reason.

>Custodes are upset the Scions have the Emperor's corpse
>Custodes & Imperium Minorum fight a war to get Emperor's Corpse
>??????????
>Custodes switch sides and hang out with the Scions and lie to their closest ally, letting the Scions have the Emperor's Corpse
>which is what the war was about in the first place

>fight a war to stop thing A
>win war
>tell the losing side to do thing A
does nobody else see how this is nonsense?

>>49555498
I thought we were pretty close to a cool idea. Unfortunately Vanth disappeared shortly afterwards, and Alexios is pretty adamant about revealing the Emperors tomb for everyone which is goes against the current consensus.

I hope thats a decent enough summary.

>>49555527
As I said before you seem to be mistaking what everyone is saying. No-one has said the Custodes go to war. Everyone is saying Alexios does and the Custodes remain a political force.

>lie for no reason
So as I said before, they are going with the idea that secrecy is the best form of defence. You can't attack a place if you don't believe it exists, and you certainly cant attack it if you dont know where it is. The Custodes see the reasoning behind secrecy and get on board.

They only care about protecting the Emperor. Im getting the feeling like you understand what people are posting and are misrepresenting it.

>>49555587
>secrecy is the best form of defence.
BUT THE SECRET IS FUCKING OUT ALREADY

>>49555563
>yes
>no. Custodes dont go to war
>yes, politicing
>since when were the Angels of Light the Custodes closest ally, rofl. More wankery over your snowflakes pls
>fight a war to get control of corpse, not to stop A
>achieve objective. end war.
>tell previous war buddys "guess we were wrong" to keep precious loot to themselves

>>49555596
>A clandestine 'show' is put on for any spies on Amaranth to suggest that the corpse is being moved, when it's in fact just being entombed deeper underground

From >>49554570

>>49555498
Alternate ending to my version:

Tired of this long ass war, the Scions admit to the Primarchs and the Custodes that they do indeed have the Emperor's body, but also point out that Amaranth is probably the most well defended planet in the galactic east. The others grudgingly agree, and both Xun and Alexios realize that moving E Money's body somewhere less secure may be in the Warmaster's interests, or even that he could have instigated all this to do so. But Alexios is determined that tells power of faith in the Emperor will be what preserves mankind, and that people need a focal point to direct their faith at. So a big show is made of moving The Emperor to a planet in neutral space. Immense cathedrals are erected and the system has to be secured against the flood of pilgrims that arrive in droves. A construction part palace and part tomb is built to house the God Emperor, whose holy visage is kept out of sight, protected always by his trusted guardians, the Custodes.

But he's not in there. He's still on Amaranth, under the watch of a Legion of Custodes, entombed in a far more secure location. Something IS in the Emperor's supposed tomb, something with an immense psychic footprint, but anyone who could tell you what that is is long dead.

>>49555596
JESUS CHRST YOU DAFT CUNT.

>6. A clandestine 'show' is put on for any spies on Amaranth to suggest that the corpse is being moved, when it's in fact just being entombed deeper underground
THEY MAKE AN EFFORT TO LAY A FALSE FUCKING TRAIL TO LEAD THOSE CONSPIRACY NUTS AWAY FROM WHERE THEY THOUGHT IT WAS.

IT LITERALLY WORKS ON 1000 LEVELS. THE CONSPIRACY FIENDS ARE GOING TO LOOK INTO THE WHOLE THING FIND DODGY OPERATIONS MOVING "SOMETHING" TO "CLASSIFIED" LOCATION AND BE LIKE "HA YOU CANT FOOL ME".

>>49555620
Literally nobody would believe the fucking Scions or anybody else.

The Emperor's corpse is on Amaranth. We just fought a full scale war because of it. It's a *fact.* You're not going to fool the whole goddamn galaxy, about something like this, jesus christ.

It's just plain not plausible. You don't lose trillions of people in a war against your own brothers and then just throw up your hands and say "well I guess we were wrong this war was a mistake sorry you guys"

>>49555641
Even the dumbest feudalworld serf wouldn't buy a lie that transparent. Nobody is that stupid.

>>49555633
Why are you guys latching on so strongly to the goofy idea that the war should end in some sort of extremely transparent and obvious deception that nobody nowhere would believe in a million years?

>>49555633
I like the first one honestly a lot more.

This kind of works, but then the Custodes are relegated to defending an otherwise unimportant planet. Which I think it further away from their character than lying to conceal his location.

But if this is what people want, then its certainly workable.

>>49555641
>>49555596
All caps doesnt solve anything people.

>>49555650
Its not a fact though. Its information, that came from the Warmaster.

Put it this way.
The Warmaster says X
The Custodes say Y
Is it really that unbelievable that people go, well shit im going to believe Y

Guys just saying, I actually kinda agree with Alexios, my original idea was flawed.

It's not in character for Alexios or Engerand to just drop the bone.

>>49555678
>that came from the Warmaster.
>The Warmaster says X

Nobody fucking knows the source, ya dingus! It's not like they got a fucking letter signed t. Warmaster.

>>49555675
Are you really incapable of seeing that this is a good story. Literally everyone but you agrees.

You: The sky is green
Everyone: Nope blue
You: GREEN I SAY ARE YOU ALL CRAZY, IS THIS BIZARRO WORLD
Everyone: Pretty blue to me.
You: REEEEEEEEE, You're all crazy. Its certainly not me whos wrong.

>>49555686
I disagree.

Alexios sure, but whats he going to do when his support falls away. Most of his forces are from people not under his command.

Engerand yeah, he is aggressive - but why would he want to continue a civil war, when the Custodes tell him there is no reason to continue. He isn't a war monger, he isn't balthasar, he doesnt enjoy killing his brothers sons. He deemed it necessary, once that necessity is gone he would be one of the first to pack up his shit and go home.

Remember this dude is !Thor. A proud warrior, but not above being like "shit, what a waste"

>>49555703
What exactly is good about a story where everyone is an idiot? How is that good characterization?

>>49555675
I dunno, it doesn't seem like people couldn't be fooled by the Scions just admitting they have the body and appearing to hand it over. It's not like anyone save the Primarchs and Custodes would expect to actually see the body. For most people the deception would be pretty effective.

Does it fool the Warmaster? Probably not, but that's not the important thing. The important thing is that the Emperor remains secure, everyone saves face, and the people of the Crusader States are given a tangible beacon of hope.

Why would the Custodes suddenly side with the Scions at all?

Why wouldn't the Custodes fight in a war that's literally all about them? Why would they just stand aside and watch trillions die for them?

Why would you try to keep the Tomb a secret from the Warmaster when you're already certain he knows about it?

Why would you end a story with convoluted lies when you can end it with something that makes some amount of sense?

Why do the Custodes give a flying fuck about saving face?

>>49555758
>Does it fool the Warmaster? Probably not, but that's not the important thing. The important thing is that the Emperor remains secure,

How the fuck is the Emperor secure if the Warmaster knows exactly where he is?

Also how the fuck is a region that was *literally chaos territory* within living memory the "best and safest place for him after all"

Why isn't his body near the astronomicon the crusader states use?
Wouldn't that be the most secure place to put the tomb

>>49555828
>Why isn't his body near the astronomicon the crusader states use?
There are hundreds/thousands of astropathic beacons

>>49555806
Amaranth was chaos territory? Where did the Scions stash him before they took it then?

Anyway, they moved the Emperor to some neutral shrine world the Warmaster would still know where he is.

Custodes don't care about saving face, but the Primarchs do.

>>49555857
>Amaranth was chaos territory?
2nd crusade, chaos claims the maelstrom zone, aka most of the Vigil, though Amaranth itself is further south. Still, it's literally the one and only crusader state which has fallen to chaos before, why is it somehow the best place for the Emperor?

It's just a silly narrative and I'm not sure what about it appeals to people so much that they're willing to look past how little sense it makes.

>>49555806
Are you just not reading peoples comments?
>why
because they demonstrate its the safest place
>why
because there isnt that many of them left, and they have other jobs, and they were never designed to be anything other than bodyguards
>why
they leaves a deception trail, they conceal it from EVERYONE else, like jesus are you retarded
>why
leading question, but whatever. it makes sense, you seem to be unable to deal with that.
>why
because rumours already exist that they killed the emperor, their entire survival relies on them being respected

>how
It might fool him, it might not. they try. It certainly fools everyone else.

Look your fan wank of your special snowflakes is reaching the point you have derailed a thread, you have repeatedly shut down multiple and varied attempts at incorporating your ideas. At this point you are just being difficult.

>>49555906
>because they demonstrate its the safest place
But it's the least safe place imaginable

>they were never designed to be anything other than bodyguards
Custodes literally fight in the Great Crusade, on battlefields. They're warriors, not politicians. If they are involved in a war, it won't be as bureaucrats, it will be with their power glaives and their unwavering strength.

>they leaves a deception trail, they conceal it from EVERYONE else, like jesus are you retarded
literally impossible

>It certainly fools everyone else.
It certainly wouldn't fool anyone. How can you think anyone would believe something so transparent? "GUYS WE MOVED THE EMPEROR HE ISNT HERE ANYMORE ITS TOTALLY COOL" like are you for real, dude?

>>49555945
What part of clandestine do you not understand? They dont tell anyone they are doing it.

They pretend to do it in a super secret way so spies can stumble onto it and think it happened. Everyone else thinks it was never there to be found.

You're just trolling at this point.

>>49555633
I think that works decently. What if the planet that they "move" the Emperor's body to is a fortress world anyways, or is in the same system as a fortress world, allowing them to rally the pilgrims in times of need?

I'mma read through all this though and write up a version of the story as I see it.

>>49555975
That would be the most masterful deception of all time. Even the fucking Warmaster, sneakiest mastermind spymaster of all time, couldn't pull some shit like that off.

>>49555894
It's the reverse. The Vigil reclaims the maelstrom zone in the second crusade.

where have the custodies been since the emperor died

>>49555980
>>49555633
Why can't they just actually move the Warmaster and guard him on a cool shrineworld instead of having some convoluted behind the scenes bullshit which seriously strains suspension of disbelief and doesn't actually add anything cool or interesting in return?

>>49556001
No, that's the third crusade. Second is them losing it, third is them reclaiming it.

>>49556019
>Vigilance Without End
>Battlefleet Vigilance is founded, and is baptized in blood in the Second Crusade where the Undying Scions retake the Maelstrom zone.
Been that way since the beginning.

>>49556003
They guard the Astropathic Beacons, mostly because it's the only duty they can find that seems vaguely like it's serving the Emperor. They're mostly listless, hopeless guys who regret their failure and don't think they have a purpose anymore. Their reputation is one of shame and suspicion, and most people are happy that they chose to stay at the beacons so they don't have to see them and be reminded of a shameful past.

>>49556033
I literally came up with the second and third crusade I think I know what they are.

>>49555945
I'm not sure why people wouldn't be fooled. Like I said, nobody but the Primarchs and the Custodes would expect to actually see the body, and they're in the loop.

Also, to be clear, the Custodes do not side with the Vigil on this. The Scions still go away from this by admitting they were wrong to keep this big secret. Alexios goes home vindicated, knowing that he was totally right. The Custodes have their charge back. Xun and Alexios by the end are considering the possibility that the Warmaster was behind shit and wanted Big E off Amaranth, which obviously can't be allowed to happen if that was his intention.

Billions die, and in the end, it's all so that the status quo is maintained and the Primarchs get to go home feeling good about themselves. Grimdaaaaaark.

File: 1470441914188.webm (3MB, 1280x674px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1280x674px

Just a thought I had about the Black Suns.

What if they've been wiped out more than once, but always seem to come back. Either because someone finds their old records, there's a survivor, or just because you can't kill the Tyrant Star and someone is always going to worship it.

>>49556080
>>49556033
Everyone give up and go home. He isn't willing to accept anything that isnt his exact version of events. He wants a shrine world for his religious faction to fawn over. He wont budge.

People have tried. People have failed.

At this point we either just go with his version, disregarding not only a cool story but the majority opinion.

Or we disregard his complaints and carry on. There is no "making this work" with him. He has demonstrated that.

>>49556109
Also, I realize I maybe should have put an epilepsy warning on that webm.

>>49556080
Something else, the symbolism of having the Emperor on Amaranth is delicious.

1. Amaranth is the domain of dudes known to endure beyond death.

2. Amaranth the plant is associated with immortality and rebirth.

>>49556109
I think that's a really cool idea.

>>49555945
>>49555307
>>49555027
>>49554570


Ok then. I suppose our story really starts with the Fall of Terra. At Terra, the Warmaster sneaks in, disguised as a Custodian and assassinates the Emperor. There's a few primarchs on hand, and they're on the walls in the maelstrom of battle, so Klaus goes after him while Faustus and Engerand? (or one of the other Primarchs) remain to keep the front stable, as best they can. They organize a retreat.
Faustus takes the Emperor's body and puts it in a stasis casket guarded by a special Oathsworn detachment. Probably an honor guard of Custodes, too. He loads it onto a ship. Engerand loses track because FUCK FUCK FUCK, Klaus is dead too, now.
All seems lost when the combined Scion and Sky Serpent drops out of the warp. They cover the retreat as Faustus drops the moon.
Somehow, the Casket ends up on the Scions flagship. Cue dramatic scene where Sarco looks down from his casket and can't even touch his father.
Dreadnought tears.

So the Scions and Serpents cover the retreat all the way back to Amaranth, mostly Scions since Xun speeds off to Tepectitlan.
They reach Amaranth as the storms worsen. Ships are unloaded with the treasures and relics of the lost West and hidden in the catacombs of Amaranth as a bunch of Judgement Bringers begin the Century Siege.
So the Custodes and Oathsworn stay with the Casket down in the Omega Vault, while above them the siege rages. The whole sector is under siege, really. (The other option is that the Casket is picked up by the Scions, it's guard having been slain or something.)

When everyone gets back together, the Scions are about to mention the whole Casket thing when they're like "oh shit son, everyone's got religion now. Dad would hate that! We'll just keep it to ourselves."

Cut to a few thousand years later...
>>49556109
Noice.

>>49556114
Man stahp. I appreciate that you like my idea but I know you're probably the dude that has a bone to pick with Alexios over something from elsewhere.

We don't just give up or resort to personal attacks. We work around shit.

I'm trying to push an idea where we get the cool shrine world and the Emperor on Amaranth.

>>49556080
>I'm not sure why people wouldn't be fooled
Because the source is inherently unreliable. Why would anyone believe the Undying Scions moved him offworld just because they said they did? Why would anyone just take their word for it? Why would anyone listen to them at all?

>Also, to be clear, the Custodes do not side with the Vigil on this.
It sure sounds like they do if they decide it should stay on Amaranth.

>Billions die, and in the end, it's all so that the status quo is maintained and the Primarchs get to go home feeling good about themselves. Grimdaaaaaark.
That's not grimdark, it's just dumb and boring. Imagine if the Horus Heresy ended up with all the traitor legions rejoining the Imperium and resuming the Great Crusade like nothing happened.

>>49556114
you literally contribute nothing but whining and have been dragging these threads down for weeks.

>>49556164
>I'm trying to push an idea where we get the cool shrine world and the Emperor on Amaranth.
Dude, one or the other. That's the whole problem. You guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You took my idea, said "BUT I WANT THING" and twisted the shit out of the idea until it ended the way you liked, and didn't care that those twists make the rest not make any sense. The idea has been warped to the point where it no longer has any narrative consistency.

>>49556169
1. People would believe them because it's not just them saying it. The rest of the Primarchs make a show of moving him. Like I said, the war ends with the Vigil growing afraid that it will end in their destruction, and bringing all the Primarchs to the table.

2. They agree that Amaranth is well defended, which gets Xun and Alexios thinking that this could be another one of the Warmaster's schemes, maybe even making investigstions into how the original leak happens.

3. That's not really the same.

>>49556164
While im not as hardcore as this dude, I also think yours is the best working story.

Honestly at this point I think its easiest to just scrap the idea as Alexios said earlier.

It seems we can't come to a unified version of events which is fine, not every idea posted has to work out. I don't want to come across as a quitter but at this point I think we are trying to force something that just doesn't need to happen.

If we need a shrine world, we can just make a tomb world in tribute to the Emperor. I think that serves the same purpose and doesn't mess with established lore in that the Emperor secretly resides in Amaranth.

>>49556244
>The rest of the Primarchs make a show of moving him.
...Why? Alexios would not be on board, and I doubt Engerand would either.

How is this lie beneficial or helpful to anyone? Why would the Custodes agree to guard an empty tomb? Why do you think it's interesting for them to do so?

>>49556244
Apologies for the awkward format by the way. I'm on my phone and it doesn't like me quoting shit.

>>49556152
>Alexios: So I heard you have the Emperor's body?
>Scions: Nope.
>Lemme see. I think you do.
>Seriously. We don't.
>Xun: Leave them alone Alexios, they don't have it. His body was lost on Terra. If Sarco had gotten the Emperor's body, he'd have told me when we were saving your asses. Oh, that's right you weren't there. Engerand knows.
>Engerand: Woah. Don't drag me into this. I don't know what happened to the body. Last I saw, Faustus had it. But if you really didn't have it, Scions, then why would you not let the Custodes in to check it out?
>Alexois: Exactly.
>Custodes: Wait what?
>Alexios: Knock knock mothafukas. I'm coming with my dudes, my bro Engerand, and the Custodes.
>Custodes: Wait what?
>Then a war happens.
>Scions: This is really stupid. I didn't think Alexios would be enough of an ass to actually fight about this. Maybe we should do something. So... Custodes... about that body...

So now it ends in one of three? ways.

>1 Custodes: Nah, Alexios, we didn't find anything. You just an asshole.
>2 Custodes: We have the body and we will protect it. On Amaranth, which is probably the safest place for it.
>3 Custodes: We have the body and we will protect it. On a shrine-world. Ooh, or on Armistice itself!! Y'all primarchs are a bunch of man-children. Let the adults have it.

I actually like that last one.

>>49556270
I imagine Alexios would be onboard if concerns arose that the Warmaster wanted Big E off Amaranth. I doubt he'd like it, but paranoia is a hell of a drug, and he'd still go home as the hero who forced the Scions to reveal the Emperor.

I think the Custodes would guard both tombs. And they'd guard the fake one with their lives if there was any indication that it was necessary to the Emperor's safety.

>>49556331
>I imagine Alexios would be onboard if concerns arose that the Warmaster wanted Big E off Amaranth
The Warmaster wants a lot of things. He can go fuck himself if he thinks he's getting them. Let him come for the body, our spears will be ready for him.

>>49556326
>>1 Custodes: Nah, Alexios, we didn't find anything. You just an asshole.
Nonsense break of character for them to lie 4noraisin
>>2 Custodes: We have the body and we will protect it. On Amaranth, which is probably the safest place for it.
I don't see why anyone would think it's the safest place for it
>>3 Custodes: We have the body and we will protect it. On a shrine-world. Ooh, or on Armistice itself!! Y'all primarchs are a bunch of man-children. Let the adults have it.
Basically what I've been suggesting.

>>49556358
Come on, let's be honest dude, if there was even the slightest hint that the Primarchs were being manipulated into doing something I doubt they'd do it anyway.

>>49556406
There's literally always a slightest hint that the Warmaster is plotting some shit. Anything could be one of his plots. Maybe he wants to trick them into thinking he wants it moved, when he really wants it on Amaranth. If the Primarchs got into that sort of speculation they'd be idiots.

>>49556379
"Suggesting"

Best options are 1 and 2

>>49556453
>Best options are 1 and 2
Why?

>>49556267
>>49556244
>>49556270
>>49556326

So then the next step is
>Xun: Scions, you dicks!
>Alexios: Told you.
>Engerand: This was a waste of time.
>Xun: Sounds like the...
>Alexios: thing that the Warmaster would do.
>[REDACTED]: JUST AS PLANNED
>So wait, did he want us to move the body off Amaranth?
>Nah, I think he just wanted us to fight.
>But isn't Amaranth in an odd place relative to the rest of the Firewall?
>Kind of? I mean I still don't know quite how it works.
>Yeah, but there's a psychic trace, right?
>Sure.
>What if that's what the Warmaster was on about?
>Shit shit shit shit
>Ok, we leave it here with the Scions, you assholes. Leave a custodian guard or something and then act like we moved it to Armistice?

It's convoluted, but I do see the logic. Also the body on Amaranth is just kind of fantastic >>49556126
>>49556379


Wait.
Solution!
Alright, Get ready for this. Sit the fuck down. They move the body to Armistice, but a rumor persists that the true body is actually on Amaranth. The details vary from telling to telling, but they say that something never left Amaranth.
Miracles have occurred near the place where the Emperor supposedly was and there is a known Custodes presence on that world, but all primarchs courts have honor guards, so...

Basically, this is 40k, in universe. It's like so much else with the Emperor. What's his true nature? Nobody knows. Doesn't really matter.
What we know is what the people in universe know and we've heard the conspiracy theories. In this case, though, they may just be true.
Boom.

>>49556379
>safest place stuff

Because concerns arise that the Warmaster may want the corpse of Amaranth, and giving him what he wants would be bad.

So Alexios is like "Fine, he stays, but we have to build a proper shrine world for dear old dad and you have to say he'll be interred there and admit you were bad and wrong to keep this secret and that you're ashamed of what you've done. Also sign these documents stating that Undying Scions are losers, they will be read via vidscreen across Imperium Minorum for the next thousand years, between sermons."

>>49556478
>Because concerns arise that the Warmaster may want the corpse of Amaranth,
From where?
Why?
How?
Why does anyone give these concerns credence?
Where did this idea come from?

It seems like backward rationalization to me. We need some reason to not move the body, ooh I know, paranoia out of nowhere!

It's hamfisted.

>>49556500
For once the Ordo Hereticus equivalent could just outfox the Warmaster's boys and turn up some suspicious shit.

Not everything has to be 100% Warmaster victory.

In fact, it makes sense there'd be a massive investigation into the goings on of Amaranth after the Scions admit to having the body. That's some shady shit yo.

>>49556468
>>49556379
>>49556326
I really like this method of development. Bravo Xun, almost quest like.

Ill throw in for 1.
Reasons being: Themes, it displays that to fight a spymaster you need to keep secrets even from your allies. I like that is shows the Primarchs to be fallible. And I like that the Warmaster has created a divide utilising the Legions strengths post heresy (for Alexios its religion, for Scions its there resolution of holding firm to old ways).

>>49556470
The only issue I have with this, is that I think its better to have it be maximum secret level. Like maybe not even Xun and Engerand are brought into the fold because it needs to be kept to them smallest conceivable amount of people aware of it.

>Honour guards
I don't like the idea of Custodes honour guards. It feels very very wrong.

>>49556556
>it displays that to fight a spymaster you need to keep secrets even from your allies
Well I finally at least am starting to see what the appeal is for others, although I don't agree with it

>I like that is shows the Primarchs to be fallible.
Personally I think it makes certain primarchs look like absolute retards and other ones look like absurd geniuses

>The only issue I have with this, is that I think its better to have it be maximum secret level. Like maybe not even Xun and Engerand are brought into the fold because it needs to be kept to them smallest conceivable amount of people aware of it.
Who the fuck is masterminding this MASSIVE lie then? Whose idea is it?

Also I stand by the stance that if there was a war which was fought over the Custodes claim on something, there is absolutely no way the Custodes wouldn't actively fight in that war.

They are warriors. They fight things. They've been standing around fighting nothing for two or three milennia at this point, just wallowing in self pity and purposelessness. Finally, out of nowhere, they're central to a conflict with far reaching psychological consequences for them, and they just... sit there and watch?

>>49556599
>absolute retards and other ones look like absurd geniuses
Really? Care to extrapolate, who and who and why?

>whos idea
Scions. Its been their idea from the start. The Warmaster tries to interrupts it.

>>49556636
>Scions. Its been their idea from the start. The Warmaster tries to interrupts it.
But literally who though. Give me a name, and give me a reason to believe he's so good at intrigue he can outsmart the warmaster and four primarchs.

>>49556326
I gotta say I like option one because I like Dangels level secretiveness and jealous safekeeping.

>>49556545
I like this. The investigation shows that there's something funky going down.

>>49556556
>>49556599
I think we just leave it unclear. Recieved wisdom is that they moved the body to Armistice, but there's some weird conspiracy theorists who say it's still on Amaranth. Done. Simple.


>Custodes Honor Guards
I dunno, maybe Honor Guard is the wrong word, but something to represent the ideals of the Old Imperium.

I agree* slightly* with anon-kun that I'm sort of blocking creativity with stubbornness. I'm going to go out for a while and handle some chores. Here is my suggestion:

Start over from scratch. Re-make up the story of the war without using my original post as a starting point. Build it from scratch. Discuss it while I'm gone, come to a good conclusion, and then I'll read it when I get back.

Or move on to other things, or decide you've reached a good consensus and I'm just wrong, or turn this thread into a dance party. Do what you feel is best.

>>49556663
Give me a minute and I can write up a character with a background and stuff if you want.

>>49556696
>turn this thread into a dance party
On it boss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1A63zWhlMs

>>49556627
I don't think they'd be doing much fighting if they're dragged into it by Alexios ala >>49556152
>>49556326

If they do take up arms, I really don't think anyone would stand against them. I can't imagine the Serpents would. The vibe I'm imagining, at least in the Jade Empire is that the Custodes have pretty much the run of the place. If they want to see something, they get to see it. If there's something they can't see, then you move it before they get there.

>>49556731
You're still viewing them with the pre-heresy mindset that they have authority and respect.

Everyone hates them. Everyone distrusts them. They have no honor left.

>>49556663
I don't think we're going with the outsmarting Primarchs thing. The idea seems to be that the Scions eventually surrender the body, but due to concerns over how this all got started, the Primarchs concoct this ruse.

I think the idea of leaving the truth vague is best though.

>>49556663
I dont see it as someone outsmarting them. They literally just say as the start.

"I think its safer if we keep this between us"
later the warmaster finds out and spill the beans
then scion bob says "regardless of what just happened. secrecy is still out top priority. the warmaster probably wants us to move him. so lets pretend to move him, thats what he'll expect."

It doesn't have to be some infinite loop of he thinks this so ill do this but he expects this so ill actually do this.

Its just a simple plan. Hell maybe thats why it works. Everyone is going around expecting elaborate plots and this guys just like, fuck it lets just hide him.

>>49556674
The Primarchs have no reason to keep the Custodes around themselves at all. The Custodes should stick to the guarding of important places.

>>49556750
Some people do, not everyone. Others think they are shining beacons of hope etc etc.

>>49556750
Maybe in Minorum, but as I understand it, the Custodes were on the walls of the Palace with the Emperor, Faustus, Klaus, and at least one other Primarch. The Warmaster slipped past all of them, including saintly Klaus, the best amongst the Primarchs.
The Custodes then served Malcador and maintained the beacons. They serve the realm. They remind all who see them of the great days of the Old Imperium.
The Sky Serpents bear them no particular ill will. The Custodes failed, but so did the Serpents. The Serpents didn't get there in time. What matters is what they do next. Xun keeps them around him as a reminder of their failings and his own. He keeps them around to remind him of the true nature of his "triumphal return" to Tepectitlan. He'll know that he has done well when he can look them in the eye again.

You might say that they're his dis-honour guard.

>>49556864
I kinda agree that the Custodes shouldn't be guarding the Primarchs. If only because it might seem like something of a ill omen after what happened with the Emperor.

PROMPT
How does your legion use scouts? Are they required to perform any feats before they can become a full marine?

>scout marines of the Undying Scions stick closely to the guerrilla roots of the legion, performing clandestine actions to disrupt enemy supply lines and sow discord in order to increase the effectiveness of the iron wall formed by the legion's dreadnoughts
>scouts reach battle-brother status when they can boast three successful campaigns against the enemies of the Vigil

>>49557577
The Hawks don't utilise initiates in the same way other legions do. Iniatiates are mentored on the battlefield by a sponsor, they don power armour and go where they mentor goes.

The Hawks rarely utilise scout armour at all, having their specialist Mark IV stealth armour provided to their experience veterans.

>They do similiar to the black templars mixing initiates into squads, but rather than give them weaker armour they give them power armour like the Space Wolves do with their Blood Claws.

The role of deep reconnaises is instead given to either a squad who is noted for their ability, or a special operations squad who have stealth armour.

Because all initiates join the rank of battle brother once they have aquired a mentor, rather than becoming a full marine they seek out title of master. That is, having become experienced enough to become a mentor yourself, and pass on not only your own knowledge, but the knowledge of your linage. Hints, tips, and tricks passed on down the line from the dawn of the great crusade.

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>>49557738
The Angels of Light put their neophytes in drop pods, they're called Comitatenses. Scouting to learn of the enemy and the battlefield is one of the most important aspects of war, and it is entrusted to veteran jetbike riders or landspeeder command squadrons. Let the untrained soldiers be the boots on the ground once the alpha strike is complete. This would be a pretty big difference in Alexios' Codex Astartes compared to girlyman.

>>49557797
gotta say scouting with command squads sounds risky.

does this mean codex adherant chapters scout with bikes mostly

>>49557577
>Scouts?
You mean Section 8? Generally, the Sky Serpents leave infiltration and subversion to mixed teams of humans and Astartes.
Neophytes are usually deployed alongside full Astartes, first in an assault capacity, as a means of weeding out those who cannot control their violent impulses.

>>49556892
I think there's also a legitimacy claim involved. The Emperor had Custodes. Then Malcador had Custodes. The Custodes maintain those things which are for the common good. If Xun has Custodes at his court, then he's basically saying "I serve the realm, as the heir of Malcador."

>>49558136
I thought section 8 were like elite covert operatives rather than battlefield infiltrators.

>>49557797
>The Angels of Light put their neophytes in drop pods, they're called Comitatenses.
Comitatenses also serve in garrisons, line assaults, anything that involves regular infantry dudes. It's essentially backwards from girlyman's codex. Tactical Marines are fresh recruits, and then once you're trained you move on to specialized roles.

>>49558115
Landspeeders are fast af and can soar quite high over a battlefield. I think it's actually a relatively safe place to put a battlefield commander. When I say command squadrons, to clarify, I'm talking about captains of individual cohorts. Top-level command like a Chapter Master would almost always be in orbit or a fortified command base, though younger/more proud/more reckless commanders might lead jetbike squads.

>>49558115
>does this mean codex adherant chapters scout with bikes mostly
Yeah, I suppose so.

Alexios' philosophy of war is a bit different from Girlyman's. He's got a bit of the Khan in him, and believes swiftness and initiative are vital aspects of warfare. He subscribes strongly to the old war adage 'Get there first with the most men.'

>>49558307
Actually in finding the source of that quote I think I found Alexios IRL

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

>If you surrender, you shall be treated as prisoners of war, but if I have to storm your works, you may expect no quarter.

>War means fighting, and fighting means killing.

>That we are beaten is a self-evident fact, and any further resistance on our part would be justly regarded as the very height of folly and rashness.

Could the Oathsworn or Faustus fix the Emperor?

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>>49558353
Can you fix death?

>>49558353

His body is nothing but an empty shell, a withered old corpse. There's nothing to fix.

Either the Emperor is dead for good, or he's going to end up as yet another Chaos God. Either way, not good.

>>49558168
Good catch. They are indeed covert operatives, but they also infiltrate Astartes for ambushes and to sow confusion around landings. Once the battle actually starts, it'll be artillery and heavy weapons squads that are being hidden for ambushes-- the Sky Serpents love those false retreats.

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>>49558377
Yes

>>49558377
To be fair, Fabulous Bill can, apparently.
Ferrus Manus was dead, but he got better. So did Horus, it seems.
Ah Black Library...

>>49558307
In that case, whats the doctrinal legion look like according to his codex.

I mean in terms of.
1 veteran company
4 battle companies of uh, bikers?
2 company of assault marines
2 company of devastators
1 company of tacticals?

Im keen to see his version of 'standard' now.

Oh yeah. Someone a few threads back wanted to know naming schemes for fleets. Here's sone Negators stuff:

>Legion Flagship
The Answerer

>known Reaver Fleet Flagships
The Star of Kings
The Resolute Will
The Indefatigable
The Riddle of Steel (eyyyy)
The Valiant
The Dragon of Terra (yes, it still goes by that)
The Bloody Hand

>other vessels
The Renown
The Glorificus
The Wyrmslayer
The Song of Anomatar
The Giantsplitter
The Right of Kings
The Endurant
The Chooser of the Slain
The Radiant

>>49558475
Nice. I dig these names.

Did we come to a concensus on the Emperor thing? We leaving it ambiguous?

And while I'm asking review type questions, any thoughts on the Sky Serpents chapter curses from >>49550030


>>49552779
>>49553022
Yes! It's all about that fuzzy boundary between being in control and being absolutely nuts.


And then to go another place, were we collecting LA rules?

>>49558475
>The Indefatigable
>The Valiant

Lets hope an occassion comes up where the Negators fleet fights the Hawk Fleet.

Negator Commander: "target the indefatigable"
Negator Gunner: "The indie sir? Thats our ship"
NC: "What no, the cruiser just there"
NG: "You mean the Valiant? Sir"
NC: "For god sakes man, thats out ship"
NG: "Yes sir but so is the Indie"

Warhawk Commander over comms "All vessels fire all torpedos at the Valiant"
Other Commanders "Ah... What"
WC: "Don't question me just do it, I have a plan I say!"
Other Commanders: "mm okay!"
> Hawk Cruiser is team-killed.

NC: Ha! Someones at least listening to me.

I should probably stop stealing names from fiction I like

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>>49558397
Well battle companies are mixed groups of assault marines, tacticals, etc. I think you have a misapprehension about that. You're talking about numbers of squads IN a battle company.

Codex Chapter:
>HQ
No Librarians, heretic. Some otherwise codex compliant chapters, like in the Storm Kingdoms conveniently ignore these anti-psyker clauses.
>Armory
Techmarines trained in the forgespace, oversees the rhinos, drop pods, stormravens, dreads, etc

>1 Veteran Company
Every Veteran has a jetbike in the AOL as a matter of culture, but the Codex Astartes defines Veterans in a more general sense, including sternguard, vanguard vets, terminators, and also bike squads.

>4 battle companies and 4 reserve companies, each of which sonsists of:

>HQ
Captain, Chaplain, apothecary, standard bearer
>4 Comitatenses squads
Neophytes are mixed into tactical squads. The Codex recommends 4 neophytes, 5 initiates, and one sargeant, but gives leeway as recruitment rates fluctuate. Similar to the way Black Templars do it, there is no seperate 10th Scout Company. Often deployed in drop pods but used for any infantry applications as needed.
>4 Bike squadrons
Once a neophyte has earned some battle honors he is promoted to an initiate, who can either serve in the bike squadrons or with neophytes in the Comitatenses. Their primary role is scouting and gathering battlefield data, but they are also used for alpha strikes and hit&run tactics once battle is truly joined
>2 Assault Squads
Usually supported by stormraven drop ships from the chapter armory, these are used in a support role to reinforce failing fronts or take objectives previously assigned to destroyed units.

>>49558541
Well shit. Stop having good taste Raydon.

What's the Indefatigable been used in by the way?

>>49558599
>but gives leeway as recruitment rates fluctuate
Leeway is the wrong way to put it. The codex doesn't really have a lot of 'leeway.' More like it provides effective ratios based on reinforcement rates and recruitment times. Complicated math and shit is everywhere in Alexios' codex.

>>49558539
>And then to go another place, were we collecting LA rules?
What are the White Scars LA rules?

The Angels LA is probably just that.

>>49558622
>units which move their full distance in their movement phase, gain +1 to cover saves or a 6+ if none, and also rerolls 1s to wound with shooting and combat attacks until the start of your next turn.
Yep
>gains +1 to the roll to see who goes first, seize the initiative, and to the 1st reserves roll each turn
Yep
>must take a single fast attack slot before taking any heavy support choices, does not apply to zone mortalis missions.
Yep
>skilled rider
Yep

>>49558652
You say that and it sounds insane and then I look at it and it makes a lot of sense. I'd been expecting you to draw from Ravenwing more. The only catch is that it also implies fast moving infantry and I'd more imagined the Angels marching in formation, or is that a misconception on my end?

>>49558688
Sort of yes and sort of no. Infantry doctrine is sort of slow because their job is mostly to hold ground that the rapid assault vanguards took. They compliment each other that way. However, the use of drop pods and drop ships is fast paced as well.

The basic idea is that you send a rapid overwhelming bike force to take territory, and then swiftly deploy a strong garrison behind the line to hold what you took.

>>49558766
In other words, they get to where they're going quickly, but once they're where they want to be, they mostly stay put or advance slow, methodical fronts.

>>49558599
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I get battle companies are mixed. I meant to imply swapping the 6x tac squads for bikes. My bad.

I like the make up of 4x tact squads 4x bike and 2x assault for a battle company.

I know you've been getting flak so ill try and phrase this in a way that isn't having a go at you. Is this really a template-able solution for the Imperial remnant though? It seems like a formation thats committed 100% to the attack. (Which isn't bad for angels) but what I mean is, a lot of forces will be defence forces, garrisons and the like. This layout isn't applicable to them. You know? What I mean is, the reason gorillamans codex is wide spread is the emphasis on tactical flexability, (and tac marines by extension) as they can be deployed in any manner, fight in any environment, can attack, and can defend. I don't see the same flexibility in this. Likewise bikers are (in universe) more expensive to create, arm, and train - the AU doesn't have the same resources I see this as being a problem for everyone to do.

If you have answers or rebuttles to this issues i'm keen to hear them.

Im sorry if you think i'm trying to shut you down and stuff, just concerns I thought i'd raise.

>>49558606
They are both cruisers in the Hawk fleet. The Valiant is actually Raydons ship (not flag ship) but the ship he actually commands when he can.

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How kosher are multi-geneseed chapters? Can a chapter only descend from one original genestock, or could you have a chapter who was founded partially by, say, a few Warhawks and a bunch of Storm Hammers?

Where and how do successor foundings source the geneseed for new chapters?

>>49558839
Multi-geneseed chapters are not fassd in my opinion. If we do implement them more it should be few and far between. The only existing group like that is the Broken Blades and they are more of a permanant deathwatch than a chapter that recruits itself.

I don't think chapters would be very happy with there geneseed floating around in ways they can't monitor. Especially factions like Serpents who have genetic flaws they want to hide.

>>49558835
It comes off as an offensive force but it's actually quite an effective defensive doctrine as well. Reactive defense structures with forces that are very capable at re-deploying to other fronts in short time periods can be very effective. If a large part of your defensive force is high-speed reaction teams, you can have relatively small holdout garrisons guard your frontiers while rapid-assault squadrons and drop pods mobilize to reinforce fronts as needed.

In terms of defense, the Codex Astartes has this to say.

"Each Bastion should be capable of reinforcing any other bastion before it can be overrun. If your right frontier is assaulted, divert forces as needed from other regions with less pressure. Let your forces move with fluidity across the theatre with great rapidity, for every step of every soldier changes the realities of the battlefield. A good defense is a flexible one"

>>49557577
>Behemoth Guard
I'm not quite sure what they do with neophytes. Probably deal with them the way the Templars do--throw them in the squad. Recon is likely done through daemon oracles and scrying as opposed to traditional humint.
They do, however have fast out rider squads, in what amount to Salamanders and Bikes. I think they probably throw neophytes in here as a good way to learn on the go with some more experienced guys.
I think the legion ethos is decently friendly, if that makes any sense. Gengrat is a cold sociopath, but he loves his sons, takes pride in their accomplishments, they're as much his creations as are the abomination engines. The legion follows in suit.
Competition to be The First of a house or a Forge Tyrant is fierce, but in general, it's like Ferengi competition--cut throat, but not personal.
I think there is also an extent to which mentor and apprentice do not directly compete and if the apprentice does something great, it is to the glory of the mentor.
They're the Tzneetch legion, after all, and I think they deal with the plans and progress by enjoying the great game, the same way they genuinely enjoy weaponizing screams and tears.

Anyways, scouts and neophytes. Probably start off on a fast out rider rig. To be First of one of these is a big deal, too, since you get to train the neophytes.
Typically these are things like Salamander Squadrons, stripped down rhinos, or bikes. Anything fast. Particularly renowned ones may even have some Cybernetica hounds like vorax

>>49558876
So when you make a new chapter, yo do so with excess geneseed from an established chapter, right? This is what I'm trying to ascertain.

Is there like a central ultramarine successor genebank on Macragge or something?

>>49558896
Yeah in the OU, chapters (attempt to) accumulate a gene-stock in excess of what they need. From this in dire circumstances they can create an influx of new marines. OR if the high lords demand, provide a basis for a new chapter.

So there is a genebank on Macragge but also samples kept (presumably) on Mars or Terra as the tithe. Its vague as to how much is kept because if its lots that gives the High lords the ability to do stuff in secret without sending a memo say "please send genestock" on the other hand, the Chapters most likely want their seed back after its been cleared for testing.

As far as im aware the OU does not provide a direct answer. I think they would most likely send it back though, keeping some occassionally in secret and telling people it was lost in transit or what have you.

>>49558887
But I mean, where are the devastators? Im trying to think of how a chapter like the Imperial Fists would work, and it just doesnt mesh without them being highly divergent.

>>49558892
Can you explain what your art of war proxy describes as the 'standard' chapter formation.

>>49558606
I found my txt file with fleet details.
- Valiant
- Indefatigable
- Arcadia
- Dawn
- Tempest
- Brightroar
- Darkstar
- Sunspear
- Executor
Are all ship names, the Hawks typically keep to 1 word naming conventions.

>>49558792
Gotcha.

>>49558892
. After a stint in one of the vehicle squadrons, the neophyte is sent someplace else based on what they prove adept at. Some work making bikes and become bikers, others join a heavier vehicle squadron, etc.
From there they're further specialized based on skills, with the big division being between the forge and the riders. Everyone does some sort of forge work, but after a stint in one of the main assault brigades, talented technoccultists are taken for further training, while the rest pursue different modes of Armored warfare, be it breaching and close assault or heavy weapons use.

>>49558876
I dunno. I think after the heresy, the broken blades may well get lumped in together, and I think Oathsworn may get assigned to chapters. I imagine that after a few centuries all Oathsworn detachments in a legion would actually have Oathsworn gene-seed, rather it would be about skills passed down. I imagine the Serpents would probably try to have some specific genomancers try to stabilize the curse.

I think for the most part, the Serpents have single gene-seed chapters, but all are part of the single legion. It's a historical legacy from the Heresy, so there's x number of Oathsworn, Knights Exemplar, perhaps some Negators and other such loyalists, all of whom proved their loyalty during the darkest of times.
They are not all of the primarch, but they are all of the legion, and over the centuries they have picked up a lot of cultural things like the sacrificial rites.

Partly, it's about exemplars of duty, but it's also a political statement. Who rules over multiple legions? The Emperor and then Malcador. By having multiple gene-seeds in the legion, Xun is asserting his status as heir. He's very much invested in setting up Tepectitlan as the new Terra. He couldn't save Terra, so he's going to do his best with Tepectitlan. Hence his dishonor Guard of Custodes.

>>49559022
So when the Custodes quote the Emperor and say no one commands us in battle or in service except the Emperor.

How exactly does Xun order them into a "dishonor" guard. What?

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>>49558996
>But I mean, where are the devastators?
squad upgrades for comitatenses? Give certain infantry brigades bigger guns.

>>49559022
Xun recognizes he failed, it's what drives him to research the warp to rejoin his father. But it also means that he is doing his best to continue the Imperium, both symbolically and in practice. So he has iterators and remembrancers and some other, odd, archaic stuff that seems weird because it's how he's pushing his claim to legitimacy.
To everyone else, it comes across as anachronistic cargo cult, except on rare occasions when it is powerfully poignant.

>>49558996
Yeah, so there are a few different basic company types, but essentially, there's
1 Command Squad, including communications, logisticians, honor Guard, librarian, etc.

4-6 Reaver Squads-- bolt pistol and chain axes is the stereotype. They usually have APCs, but Storm Eagle or Jump Pack insertion is not unknown.
4-6 Tactical Support Squads--these guys have APCs or IFVs, and are armed with Volkites, Flamers, or Meltas. Sometimes rotor cannon.
2-4 Seeker/Vet Squads-- Sternguard vets mounted in an IFV or APC. If they have a heavy weapon, it's got a suspensor Web. Or its a Deathwatch style Frag cannon. Seriously, those bad boys are totally Sky Serpents.
0-2 Devastators-- Typically armed with mobile heavy weapons like Frag or Grav cannon.
0-2 Destroyers-- rad missiles, crowd control
0-2 Heavy Assault-- these are your Terminators and Breachers. Some companies have more of them and are specialized for the purpose.

I feel like I'm forgetting something...

The white clad death companies stand outside the formation.

Heavy weaponry is generally provided by Armored support.

And keep in mind, this is all base 20.

There's a few other common company styles, though. There's a first company eq, breachers, recon/artillery/ambush, and Armored companies

>>49559077
If they do that, he doesn't. He can't. In which case he makes sure he donates supplies.

I'd been thinking that the Custodes have a presence on significant worlds to keep an eye on things and since Xun is the best psyker primarch left, he'd be up on the Warp Beacons and soul-binding ritual, and so would be in the loop on that.

But yeah, if and when the Custodes say no, there's not much he can do, meaning that if he has them around, he is very careful when it comes to asking for things.

>>49556109
I like this idea. I'd say one person, the Black Seer, always survives, but the knowledge is what brings him new followers.

PROMPT

Where on the MtG color wheel does your Primarch fall?

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>>49559535
Alexios would play a W/R aggro deck built around cheap haste creatures and buff spells
Balthasar would play a R/B goblin deck with some black spells
Oramar would play colorless artifacts with lots of mill spells

>>49559535
I uh don't know mtg that well.

Black?

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>>49559841
Raydon would play a Red/Blue flying deck

like everyone would have red in their deck, IA legions is aggro as fuck.

>>49559854
Flying yeah. I should have known that. Why blue though?

>>49559902
flying is a blue thing in mtg

>>49559926
I see. I only really played white and black. my memories of blue is limited to counter spell bs

>>49559535
Well, Aodhan would be Black/Red/White

Black and Red are obvious. Black deals with the feeding appetites of the self to the detriment of others and red is associated with freedom and inspiration, all of which is pretty important to his character. White is associated with order and community, which aren't really his things, but it also deals in idealism, and the heroic ideal is pretty important to him. Also, while he's no community spirit, he is a family man of sorts, and White gets all the 'kill big creatures' removal. He'd run Mardu Warriors spam or some insane B/R mess with tons of removal.

>>49558835
Oh yeah, I meant where'd you get the Indefatigable name from if you found it elsewhere. It's a really cool one, I actually used it as the name for my first battleship back in the Gothic days.

Anyway, renaming the Valiant as the Valorous and the Indefatigable as the Indomitable.

>>49561794
No need to rename, im sure in the entire span of 40k someone has somewhere doubled up on naming.

The Indefatigable is one of the main ships in the Hornblower series. Its the ship the MC spends most of his time as a midshipmen as. So it also makes appearances later in the series, I think when he becomes a post-captain.

What I really like about the name is shortening it to the Indie, adds a feeling of home to a ship.

>>49561825
Ah, cool.

I think I'll probably rename the Valiant anyway. If the Warhawks one is Raydon's own ship it should have a unique name.

Oh, also, I've been going through the Negators wiki page and adding battles of the Heresy. Halfway through Vanaheim right now.

MtG, what a bunch of nerds.

Holy crap though guys. Shame I wasn't home yesterday evening, I would have liked to join the discussion regarding the Emperor's corpse situation.

Not sure if this counts as a prompt, but here we go:
PROMPT

What are the legion's shoulder badges? I've only seen a handful of them and I think all legions should have one, preferably original ones.

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>>49562982
One or the other. Maybe one INTO the other after the Heresy.

Coloured woad blue.

>>49563195
Uh, this is for the Negators.

The Arms... fuck me I'm not sure. What are they rocking /asg/?

>>49562982
>Behemoth Guard
Crimson Nine pointed stars.

>Eyes of the Warmaster
Eye of Horus?

>Fists of Mars
Clenched red gauntlet holding a lightning bolt?

>>49563241
Fists of Mars could have a big red fist hitting an equally red anvil.

I N D U S T R Y

>>49563195
I prefer the triquetra.

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>>49562982

>>49563496
That's for...?

>>49563808
Closest representation I can find of what I think their shoulder badges should look like.

>>49563859
So a panther? That's not what I was expecting.

>>49562982
>Big E's Body
It's still an open question I think, so feel free to give us your thoughts.

>>49563471
That works too.

>>49564109
Yep. The megapanthers of Amaranth are the apex predator of the world and we're Sarco's personal heraldry before he got picked up by the Emperor.

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>>49562982

Keep going guys, I'm writing this all down.

>>49563241
Doesn't a crimson badge clash with the Guard's color scheme?

Isn't there some 1984 imagery we could use as a badge for the Eyes?

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>>49564429
maybe some weird juxtaposition of the ingsoc logo and the all-seeing eye?

I am not good at photoshop or art in general.

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>>49564513

>>49564216
To be honest it was just a hypothetical question in the first place. There doesn't have to be a war, and Emps' corpse can stay on Amaranth in secret until the 13th crusade.

>>49564533
agree but i'd stil value Doc's input on the whole thing

>>49564513
>>49564527
I'm not sure I really get what you mean.

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>>49564559

Phew, finished the entire Vanaheim thing. That turned out... longer than I thought it would be.

I still want to go into more detail later aaaaaaaaaaa-

>>49564429
I think it looks quite nice--I'll get you a color swatch or something.

>>49564513
I'll try photoshoping something soon.

So, uhh... quick question.

Is there an equivalent to Macharius in this setting or what?

>>49565126
>Macharius
The only similar thing we've written (so far) is about Ollanius Pius running the resistence on daemonTerra with graffiti that says "OLLANIUS PIUS LIVES!" because they keep fucking executing him and he keeps fucking coming back. Although even that was just lightly discussed.

If you wanna write about a kickass living saint general, though, you're welcome to it.

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>>49564744
Here you go.


>>49564725
Oooh, much excite.