Imperium Asunder

>>49491384
Where is the capitol of the Dark Imperium?

>>49491419
Terra.

THIRD FOR FUCK THE WARMASTER

>>49491551
So if Terra is the capitol of the Dark Imperium then that means the Dark Imperium is controlled by Chaos.

In what way has Chaos been "BTFOd"?

>>49491850
it's a joke

I don't get this... Is this some sorta Chaos Wank Fest? Should I be impressed or disgusted?

>>49492176
What is there not to get? I'll be glad to answer any questions you have.

Even though the point of the last thread was to work on the wiki, I don't think that happened.
Maybe we could open a Google Drive or something, so people who've been keeping notes can share them.

>>49493009
That's a great idea. Do you want to start one up?

I'm about to start a writeup for the conflict between Scions successors and the Eldar in segmentum Tempestus, which I'll call Warzone Tempestus. Anything I should keep in mind?

I think it might be a good idea to come up with guys like the Chaos Champions.
Atm only Cullen of the Bloodhounds is really detailed.
I suggested Kalvas Elsophar of the Behemoth Guard for Tzneetch.

Got no clue for the other two cult legions.

Might also be cool to work up a high priest of chaos character for the Asura.
Probably a chosen of Malal. I think I recall Alexios posting a guy.

Then there's chosen of the Emperor and the Legions of the Damned. Anwynn MacLior leads them, but there may also be a few other legendary figures.
Then there's the question of veterans of the long war. I came up with 3 dudes last thread that I'll post here for your thoughts.

>>49493625
Tlaloc Tzotz, Lord of the Count, the Blind Seer, the Exile
During the crusade and the heresy, Tlaloc was a member of Xun's inner circle. A librarian of rare power, even in a legion known for its command of warp craft, Tlaloc testified at Nikea and went on to play an important role in many of the battles of the Solar Rim campaign. However, on Prospero, Tlaloc seems to have come under a strange influence.
Whether a tome, a phantasm of the warp, or something else, Tlaloc began to diverge from the cautious Path of Heaven of Xun and Tepectitlan.
In the aftermath of the Heresy, Tlaloc initiated unorthodox experiments in the Warp, looking for better ways to fight the neverborn. Specifically, Tlaloc developed a ritual similar to the soul binding performed by the Emperor on Astropaths. While this protected librarians from the neverborn and increased their ability to slay them, it delved into strange xenos lore of the dancing eldar.
Xun was furious that Tlaloc had done this without approval, even as Xun developed his own method for soulbinding.
For this breach of trust, Tlaloc was cast out from the Legion, with nothing but a small band of retainers.
From then on, though allowed to meet with members of the Legion, Tlaloc was on his own. Xun being Xun, a path to redemption was left open. If Tlaloc could gather all the data, then he would be allowed back.
Still devoted to the cause of the Imperium, Tlaloc seeks for a way into the legendary Black Library of the Harlequins.
In this task, there is none he will not work with and nothing he will not do. He has raided Angelic Abbeys and Asuran Libraries alike.

(I'm thinking he still has his library card to the Sky Serpents. Xun basically couldn't condone his reckless acts, but seeing how the censure of Oramar turned out, he figured he'd try something different with his own son. The results are mixed.)

>>49492176
Pretty sure the loyalists currently have the most fluff bruh.

>>49493009
I literally don't have the time at the moment, too much work.

I aim to drop a fat dump of info in the Silver Spears section soon.

In regard to the Heresy, I think we worked out a whole bunch of good shit last thread, we just need to drop it in. I'll be adding Malphas, Vanaheim, and Terra to the Heresy section of the Negators page the moment I get a real chance to sit down and make it all look presentable.

>>49493153
Damn man, I would, but I;m not a smart man. I can't figure out Google Drive of Dropbox if I tried.

>>49493718
Good shit. Kinda reminds of Ahriman.

>>49492176
>>49493740
Yeah, Chaos being as powerful as it is is just a quirk of the setting. It more of a 30k wankfest than anything.

>>49493764
I might actually add a couple of things to people's pages as well. I understand people can be very busy.

>>49493811
>It more of a 30k wankfest than anything.

This, holy shit.

This is a setting for people who want to be space knights fighting spikier space knights.

>>49493884
Guilty as charged. Hell, Cybernetica cohorts are still a thing.

>>49493718
>Nofr'atos the Traveller
Like so many of his brothers, Nofr'atos stands in shadows dark as his plate. What is known for certain is that Nofr'atos was a captain in the favor of his lord, Graha'Nak. Stranded in the Sol Sector during the heresy, Nofr'atos lead the capture of the Second Sons world killer, Terminus Est.
With this ship at the head of his small armada, Nofr'atos embarked on a self appointed mission of justice, razing the world that had betrayed their oaths to the Emperor.
To this day, the Terminus Est is said to appear suddenly from the depths of the warp to pass judgement with strange and ancient bioweapons. Rumor suggests that an Oathsworn detachment protected during their censure by Nofr'atos provide these, but the survivors of the Terminus Est's revelations are seldom in a state to provide much detail, though legends of a figure in dark cataphractii plate, with a cape of human skin and a massive, bone handled scythe, descending amid shells that render life down to sludge to dispense personal judgement and the enlightenment of terror abound.

>>49493884
Unless you want to be undead walking tanks fighting space elves and robot skeletons.

>>49493811
>Good shit. Kinda reminds of Ahriman.

it's basically Ahriman but Imperial Asunder(so not Chaos).

>>49491850
Terra is ruled by the Warmaster. He has a tenuous relationship with chaos at best, and an adversarial one at worst.

Any one of you guys playing Eternal Crusade by the way? I'm about to go check it out.

>>49493981
And then this guy:

>Johannes Hoenheim, the Chiurgeon
One of Faustus' brightest, Hoenheim was there during the siege of Luna, one of the few Oathsworn to escape. Entrusted with preserving as much of the Oathsworn's work as possible, Hoenheim escaped with Knights Exemplar even as Luna plummeted towards Terra.
Hoenheim is a complicated man. On the one hand, he seeks to preserve the legacy of his gene-father, wandering from court to court in the East instructing and researching as the opportunity presents itself. At times he even creates stunning works if genomancy.
Despite this, Hoenheim is haunted by his memories of Luna, and, in particular, he cannot forgive the Judgement Bringers or the Paladins of Kor.
When his humors swing towards the cholera, Hoenheim will vanish, only later to appear reaving the Protectorate or attacking the Judgement Bringers.
It is suspected, but never proven, that these raids on the Protectorate are sponsored by various other states.
For Hoenheim's part, he cares little as long as he is able to extract some quantum of solace from his revenge.

>>49495322
if we're posting characters from last thread

>Ramiel Torm and the Crypt Vultures
After the tumult of the age of apostacy and the wars of interpretation over Alexios' great theological work, Euangelia Theologia, a few commanders of exceptional worth emerged from the ranks. Most notable of these new commanders was Ramiel Torm, who would come to be known as the Green Angel. Ramiel was a fiercely zealous man, but his zealotry was of a practical, calculating sort. Many foolish zealots among the Angels came to believe that the God Emperor had made them invincible, and learned to their peril the error of that sort of thinking. Ramiel famously said at the battle of Sotha, "The God Emperor may be on our side, but tanks are tanks."

Ramiel embodied the logistical genius of his genesire, quickly proving one of the most skilled captains in Imperium Minorum. He had an overwhelming sense of certainty about him, his orders always sounding like the most important orders ever given, and to Ramiel they always were. His ironclad authority trickled down to his men, making them a tough and reliable lot.

When the treacherous Void Dragon Shard unleashed its fury on the Unyielding Vigil, three chapters of marines were chartered for crusade, and Ramiel Torm was granted one. Little was yet known of the conflict, but it was said the enemy rose from ancient xenolithic crypts hidden below the Vigil Worlds. Ramiel chose to name his chapter the Crypt Vultures, saying that he intended to "stand over the iron bones of the enemy like vultures."

The highly mobile Crypt Vultures proved invaluable to the slow and purposeful Undying Scions, Helping to outmaneuver the Necrons. When the Necron assaults were broken and the battles turned underground to purge the Necron Tombs, the jetbikes of the Crypt Vultures proved ineffective. Ramiel had many of his bike squadrons re-outfitted as assault marines, whose short bursts of speed and mobility were far more practical in the cold and winding dark.

I think we need some more prompts and points of discussion. Anyone got anything good?

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>>49496211
Let's talk WAAAGH: The Beast!

The Warmaster has only recently won, the firewall has stabilized, and the terror of old night has returned. An Ork Warboss decides these spikey boyz are worth krumpin, and starts a WAAAGH against the new Dark Imperium, as well as the cacophany of daemonic entities entering realspace in the wake of the Eye of Terra's birth.

Orkz vs CSM and Daemons. Let's talk about it. Major battles? Major characters? Resolution of the war?

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>>49496276
Isn't the point of the beast to explain why the number of Astartes drops considerably between 30k and 40k?

Let's start with the basics. We want this war to be between the Dark Imperium and the Orkz. I guess that means we've placed Ullanor in front of the Firewall, since the location is not actually known.
The first important question is what state the Dark Imperium is in at this point. Has the Warmaster managed to get/keep a firm enough hold on his brothers and his citizens, or will the Eyes of the Warmaster have to take care of the situation by themselves? For everyone's information, the Beast rises to power around 1,500 years after the Ullanor Crusade.

>>49496701
>>49496276
I think this setting loses a lot of its appeal if the Warmaster is actively at odds with the Chaos gods. Likewise, while the idea that the Warmaster doesn't have full control over the Daemon Primarchs and their legions is cool, I think he should be in a position that if push comes to shove, he puts his foot down and the legions at least come do what he says. Maybe he can't execute summary authority like that often, but he should have it. If they aren't under his banner after all, why aren't they actively killing each other. Its chaos after all.

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>>49496701
>I guess that means we've placed Ullanor in front of the Firewall,
I think it's supposed to be somewhere in Segmentum Solar?

>For everyone's information, the Beast rises to power around 1,500 years after the Ullanor Crusade.
I think timing wise the WAAAGH fits best while the loyalists are reeling from losses and haven't yet unified for the first crusade. Later half of M31, early half of M32.

>State of the Dark Imperium
Probably VERY ununified. The forces of Chaos rampaged across the territory destroying, reaving, and enslaving. This period is pivotal for the Warmaster, as he tries to turn a warzone into a territory. He's courting the chaos primarchs and trying to get them to rule territory for him as chaos marches, he's trying to keep the Dark Mechanicus in line, and most importantly of all he's trying to convince Imperial Citizens to get back to citizen stuff.

A cunning propagandist like the Warmaster might even use a massive WAAAGH to those ends. Suddenly he's fighting a defensive war instead of an offensive one, and defensive wars are a propagandists' wet dream. The Imperium must unify under the Warmaster or face certain doom!

>>49496895
>why aren't they actively killing each other.
They are. The Warmaster has authority and control, but it's tenuous. Controlling chaos warbands is inherently difficult, and he does his best, but they're still chaos. That's why he forms the chaos marches. He keeps the most chaotic and dangerous warbands distant from his territory and close to the crusaders. I feel like a lot of the people in this thread don't actually know what "marches" means.

>Surrounding the 'ordered' heartland of the Dark Imperium is the Chaos Marches, a screaming anarchy comprising hundreds of chaos warlord states. Some are ruled by Veterans of the Long War that still wear the colors of their legions, but most are ruled by warbands of outcasts, exiles and dissidents with their own ways. Some of these states may last for centuries or millenia, while others rise and fall in a matter of years. The borders between them are constantly shifting as Warlords rise and fall. The citizens of this area live in permanent fear that the Angels of Hell may come from the skies to reap and enslave, to sacrifice and feast.

>>49496899
I say we just skip the period that has his trying to establish control post-heresy. It can be summized easily. I think immediately after the heresy the traitor primarchs are going to most closely aligned.

>>49496928
The appeal of this setting is that its inverted from the normal 40k.

That is, loyalists are hiding in their equivilent of the eye, and the traitors are managing a galaxy spanning empire. The Warmaster is a more effecient administrator than the imperial senate, so its plausible he has to worry less about rebellions an the like.

To weaken this, he has to deal with the inherent back-stabbiness of chaos. Which is why he moves those types the the fringes.

To bring it back to normalcy, he has his eyes, everywhere. His eyes are the Inquisition ramped up to 100. They put down incursions and the like before the groups even have formulated their plans fully.

I don't think his control over the Dark Imperium should be anything less than the Imperiums control in 40k proper, and should in all honesty be considerably better.

The Beast should be far easier to handle for the Dark Imperium. A couple of things contribute to this, not the least of which being the fact that they actually have more than one Primarch and a single competent leader. In the OU the only Primarch left is Vulkan and they Imperium is lead by the High Lords, which has never been very effective.

I like the idea of the Warmaster using the Beast as a way to unite the Dark Imperium and cementing his position and power.

By the way, I thought of something related to something mentioned in the last thread, relating to the Warmaster. I think it was Enoch that suggested his eyes weren't burning orange, as much as catlike. This gave me the idea that the Warmaster's eyes should be special. Besides dark vision, he should be able to percieve things at incredible detail, even more than his bretheren. He could use this to analyse people's body language down to the smallest details, helping him manipulate them.

>>49497007
This setting is indeed a role reversal, but IMO an imperium that worships the Ruinous Powers in at least some capacity is going to have significant differences from the OU Imperium. A state formed by revolution (dark imperium) is inherently less stable than a state that survived and defeated that revolution (regular imperium.)

IMO, it's a bit of both. Inside the true Dark Imperium territory, the Warmaster rules with extreme authority, and has far more control than the OU imperium. On the fringes though, in the chaos marches, there is no law, no order, only war and death.

The Warmaster's imperium is smaller and more centralized, with decentralized client states surrounding it so that it is insulated from war with outside forces.

>>49497030
>percieve things at incredible detail, even more than his bretheren. He could use this to analyse people's body language down to the smallest details, helping him manipulate them.
totally unnecessary.
I mean, you could have his armour have scanners that read things like body temperature, heart rate, etc and it still seems less wanky than having sharingan eyes.

>>49497120
Wouldn't be too much of a stretch. All it would really mean is that his eyes can see further and percieve more details. All of the other perks would be (self-)taught. As for the heat scanners and the like he would likely still carry a lot of that sort of equipment.

>>49496276

>Ork Attack Moon appears over Terra
>Every Daemon in the System flocks to it.
>Orks are drowned in a tide of Daemons

>>49497228
its just not necessary. He doesn't need to have batman level observation. What does it add to his character that he couldn't already do? He was already a skilled manipulator. All it does it make him sound overdone.

This being a character that thrives on having a lack of information about him.

>>49497246
Well they would probably assault the millions of worlds around Terra first.

>>49497228
>>49497299
I'm in favor of him being remarkably perceptive, but not having batman detective vision.

>>49497420
which is what he already was. He doesn't need super eyes. perception is more about mindset than it is 'eye-power'

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>>49497464
yeah I agree

So, WAAAGH: The Beast. Let's talk opening moves and how it starts.

Let's assume Ullanor is somewhere in segmentum Pacificus. The Warmaster has managed to consolodate his power and re-establish the legitimacy of the Imperium, but his hold over the outer regions is tenuous and several of the Legions who fought with him were not so much loyal to him as they were united against the Emperor. With that uniting factor gone, A significant part of his military might threatens to break away.

Ork Rokks start trickling in from Pacificus, invading and conquering a number of worlds very quickly. The WAAAGH threatens to gain momentum if it is not stopped quickly (it wont be) and there are rumors of a Warboss the likes of which the galaxy has never seen. There are more insidious rumors spreading that the Orks have some mysterious backer: Perhaps the devious Eldar seeking to destabilize humanity, perhaps some elaborate plan of Oramar, perhaps an effort by the Crusader States to weaken the Warmaster. The Warmaster's Eyes have conflicting reports from unreliable sources. However, it is clear the Greenskins are not acting purely on their own, for their might is relentless and their numbers unfathomable.

What does the Warmaster do?

>>49497571
He might not have the direct support of the other legions, but I don't think any of the traitors can rival him in regards to the support of the Dark Mech, Rebel Auxillia and Armadas.

Thats where his power really lies. Astartes are good, great even. But they are far to few even in 30k. The Warmaster control the human forces, I see him pulling out all the stops to show the other traitors that he IS the military power house post heresy.

Once he has a demonstration of force, I think you'd be pretty stupid to ignore his orders considering that he has his legion, the Judgement Bringers, AND the vast majority of non-astarte forces.

I mean, he couldn't take on all of the traitors combined, but I think he should make it clear that anything less isn't going to end well for the traitor legions.

From there all he has to do, is find a way to draw the Orks into other peoples territory, and have them come to him for help.

>>49492293
What happened to the Lamenters.

>>49497731
There are no Lamenters. All of the OU canon legions are non-existent, replaced by new ones. That means canon successor chapters don't exist either.

>>49497731
They were never made.

Well I guess they might have been. IDK who would have the most similiar geneseed though

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>>49497731
>>49497766
>>49497780

The 20 legions of the Adeptus Astartes

>>49497571
I personally think he'd wait to establish a defensive front against these attacks before phoning in Balthasar and Aodhan and the likes. Showing that he can hold out against something like this with the sheer manpower of the Imperium itself is pretty important.

I also think he's the kind to conserve favours, too.

I imagine he'd send the Judgement Bringers, along with a vast muster of Imperial Guard, to reinforce the edges of Segmentum Solar against these attacks. Not to make counter offensives yet, but to show his subjects and his brothers that he can hold the line.

Then he might wait and see how the situation develops.

>>49496895
>>49496928
Actually, that's an interesting question, ne? Does the Warmaster have the backing of the four the way Abbadon does, to the point where when the Warmaster needs Balthasar to get off his ass and do something, the Blood God will send 8 Bloodthirsters?
Chaos still fights itself, but when the Warmaster speaks, the gods support him and the Legions fall in line.

>>49497678
This seems pretty good.
>>49498960
As well as this. I imagine that when he calls, there are some who claim that he hid behind Enoch and the powers of the warp. Perhaps part of the reason that he doesn't just >>49497246
Is because he's trying to prove the strength of his legion and his state. It ends up backfiring somewhat since it escalates the situation.

>>49499229
Yeah thats the way I see it. Fight all you want amongst yourself but when I call, you can bet the big 4 are backing me, so you better listen up.

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>>49498960
I like this. That means the WAAAGH will be mostly repelled by IG regiments, imperial navy, and shit, and maybe what ends it is CSM getting involved.

I'm imagining something space WWI, with Imperial Guardsmen hiding in trenches/bunkers with autoguns and heavy bolters, holding back hordes of Orks while Chaos Commisars rant about the Warmaster.

>>49497678
>>49498960
So he holes up and forms the lines. In the mean time, I'd imagine that the Orks might also be raiding the other marches in Pacificus, which would be the Second Sons and the Behemoth Guard. Which seems like a huge mistake to put those two next to each other, now that I think of it.

Either way, if the Second Sons are on the same front as the Behemoth Guard, fighting Orks, you may well trigger flashbacks on Saul's part and have him start attacking the Behemoth Guard and exterminatusing worlds until the Plaguefather tells him to stop, opening an era of instability that won't end until after The Beast lies dead on [INSERT WORLD HERE]

>>49499786
you could go full puppet master, and have the Warmaster set up his defences to shape the ork attack towards the marshes. This lets him do 2 things, 1: reduce the threat to his domain and 2: force the otherwise spectator forces to join in. Without him needing to ask.

>>49499721
Well, I imagine that it's mostly IG and Navy assets that secure the line. At which point the full extent of this shit, and the Beast itself, reveal themselves.

When this conflict really gets going the Crusader States could attempt to make a push up around the Tempestus Gap into Segmentum Solar, striking while the Warmaster's forces are mired in battle with the Beast.

This would be the first real test of the Warmaster's regime. I imagine the big 4 give him more backing once he survives this mostly on his own merits.

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>>49498960
>>49499229
I think the four dedicated legions are the most loyal to him, except for Enoch who's gone full Darth Vader.

>Balthasar Bornhold
He's not like Angron. Balthasar is a born nobleman turned stalinesque dictator. He rules over a many agriworlds, feudal worlds, death worlds, etc. These worlds tithes are valuable to the Warmaster, and Balthasar is his feudal bully, extracting levies of soldiers, grain, ores, and slaves, often through violence. Citizens of these worlds are usually insular, not knowing much about any "Imperium" or really that there's anything other than their world. All they know is red monsters coming from the sky to rape and pillage.

>Gengrat Vannevar
You can bet your bottom dollar Gengrat would have his fist so far up the Dark Mechanicum's ass he could turn their head like a puppet. The Warmaster would keep him close. Maybe he rules over a shitload of daemonic forgeworlds, churning out warmachines and shit. He's like the Dark Mechanicus equivalent of Sinistrum.

>Kashaln
Give him titles and people to rape/kill and he's a happy camper. I think Kashalnanon said they live in a fleet which usually chills in the warp. By the time of the WAAAGH Kashaln's a slaaneshi futa DP and his legion is probably shattered into like six billion warbands, most of which just like killing each other for fun.

>Saul Sheridan
Insane Nurgle daemon prince who wants to destroy reality. Some of his companies might form warbands which could be as loyal as any Judgement Bringer though, I imagine.Such warbands would be tightly regimented machines of war, and their auxiliary regiments of Imperial Guardsmen slash Nurgle Cultists would be major weapons in the Dark Imperium's arsenal.

>>49499831
Maybe the Warmaster diverting forces against W:TB is the impetus for Engerand mobilizing the 1st Crusade?

>>49499823
It also wouldn't surprise me some if the Warmaster miscalculates a bit on that one, specifically as the Astartes come to the front as per >>49499831

The Second Sons viciously attack the Behemoth Guard, which the Warmaster had accounted for, so that's not catastrophic, but Balthasar insists upon his hunt and being sporting.
After some major setbacks, the Warmaster has Anshul go slap some sense into Balthasar about the true nature of Khorne, but this process in itself leads to battles drawing away from the effort against The Beast.
Meanwhile, the Negators, who have no front to defend, show up, kill something cool and then lose interest.


>>49499956
>Gengrat
Hell yeah. Perhaps he never relinquishes control of the Red Planet and the Warmaster popes him Fabricator General to get him to stop looting the archives on Mars and go conquer the Forgeworlds that the Loyalists are in the process of stripping.

Afterwards, he may hole up on Mars, happy to obey the Warmaster so long as the Warmaster backs him up in having first right to any archaeotech

>>49499970
maybe 2nd instead since the 1st is meant to be the immediate counter attack once the loyalists reorg after their retreat.

>>49500066
making him fabricator general is lame. its just wasting another character opportunity for no reason. The Dark Mech has never been 1 unified group. Its a hodge bloge of hereteks who trade information and resources.

>>49500081
that takes a long time though. Remember, there's no fucking astronomicon. Old night is back and IA is essentially a second Age of Strife. The Chaos dudus are unimpeded by chaos, so they can stay unified, but for the Crusaders it's like being caught outside in a blizzard. You can shout all you want, but nobody can hear you, and even if they could, nobody can reach you. Only once sickass Malcador starts lighting beacons in the night sky can the loyalists start organizing, and that takes time.

>>49499956
Yeah, these guys seem like his true loyalists of each ruinous power, with the Judgement Bringers being the Undivided diehards.

I get the impression Anshul would care somewhat about Waaagh! The Beast because he does proselytize (right?), but he might not present a united front with the Warmaster's forces until later. The Iron Hearts and Negators seem like they'd only be brought in as the fight gets bloody, or when the Crusader States use the disruption as an opportunity to launch a crusade. The Iron Hearts would be defending their little empire and the Warmaster could probably pull Aodhan in by promising him something big to kill. In fact, bringing him in specifically to kill The Beast would probably make sense.

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>>49500066
>>49500117
I actually think it's better if the DI has no Fabricator General, and part of the reason Gengrat sides with the Warmaster is that he hates the mechanicus and wants to start his own tech cult with blackjack and forgefiends.

>>49500129
then it hardly makes sense to attack them at all. They wouldnt even know the Warmasters domains are weakening.

>>49500146
better

>>49500117
>>49500146

Sure, but the idea I was going with is that when last seen, Gengrat is busy looting the Vaults of Moravec and the like on Mars, in part because he figures if he wants cool Heretek, he should get it now because the Warmaster is going to take it and keep it all to himself. Why? Because that's what Gengrat would do.
But if the Warmaster gives Gengrat a title that says "here, you have a right to all that cool stuff you love so much", then Gengrat can leave Mars without worrying about someone jacking his shit.
Since the Warmaster bestows the title, it naturally includes a proviso that Gengrat share with the Warmaster and make stuff for him when asked to.
It also means that when Gengrat hears about something cool in another march and that stuff isn't given over to the Warmaster, it's Gengrat who gets angry and pimp-slaps them. Probably with some sort of Warmaster bling to assert the Warmaster's authority through him.

It's less about being an actual Fabricator General and way more about performing power to keep people in line, since Gengrat is going to be running around trying to grab the shiny toys anyways. With him given some sort of nominal dominion over the Machine Cult (Gengrat's new, cooler one), Gengrat is no longer a threat to the system because he has been made part of it.

>>49500200
I dont see him wanting to have athing to do with the Mechanicusn.

Even wanting their junk

>>49500200
I agree with this post

>>49500238
I bet Gengrat wouldn't care much for their schematics and knowledge because he cares about innovation whereas they mostly forbid it, but he would totes care about their manufactorums and resources and shit.

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>>49500066
>Meanwhile, the Negators, who have no front to defend, show up, kill something cool and then lose interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=132WIdxvgdo

>Leth Golath
>2nd Sarjent of the 3rd Negators Cohort
On the Volcanic world of Molgaath, during the Dark Imperium's retaliation against WAAAGH: The Beast, Leth Golath earned eternal glory. The world was a mekforge of the Greenskin's war machine, churning out mekanoid walkers, halftracks, planes, and any other constructions the MegaMeks could cobble together. Largest and greatest among these rusted iron monstrosities was the Gargant, an Ork construction akin to an Imperator class Titan in scale.

Sarjent Golath was armed with a Multi-melta cannon, a powerful new design produced by the Gengrat's dark techno-cultists. On his back was a powerful warp engine, which fueled his multi-melta as well as a pair of jump-jets. Soaring upward, Golath's blasts of superheated plasma tore into the thick armor plating and crippled the inner workings. Across several leaps he climbed the Gargant, finally coming to an overlook on its head. Golath then superheated his multi-melta, putting it into a state which would result in total catastrophic overdrive.

Eyewitnesses on the ground several kilometres away are reported to have heard laughter before the whole world turned to light. What amounted to a tiny star formed from the overloading multi-melta, creating an explosive blast orders of magnitude hotter than the sun. The burst sustained itself for several hours before burning out, and in that time the land and everything standing on it churned to molten slag.

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>>49500238
What makes you say that?

>>49500284
>Not caring about their schematics and knowledge
Yeah, he'd not be terribly interested in all that except in as much as they'd contain new/lost crap. Machine canon means nothing, but a plan for a new deathray is still a plan for a new deathray.


On a related note:
The big difference between the Orthodox Mechanicum and what I'd been imagining for Gengrat is that I'd been thinking the Behemoth Guard claims that the Machine Spirit can be accessed directly without need to go through the channels of the Martian Orthodoxy. They see machine spirits as a specific type of daemon, a belief they support with the Xana II style control cortexes.
So they have machine mystics who speak in machine tongue when the Spirit overcomes them, that kind of thing. They identify Tzneetch a the great spirit who drives progress, and give him a bunch of names like Lightbringer.
If you want to draw a parallel to a real world thing, the Mechanicum is like the Catholic Church and the Behemoth Guard is like really, really crazy snake-handling Protestants who have been reading waaaaaay too much Paul.
'The Law of the Mechanicum chained the Spirit and allowed Stagnation, so the Omnissiah sent the Spirit, and through the Spirit, Progress became manifest. Thus by the Works of Spirit we live in the Omnissiah who is Tzneetch and our works are made great, for the Works of Law are Stagnation, but the Works of Spirit are Progress.'

>>49500533
>If you want to draw a parallel to a real world thing, the Mechanicum is like the Catholic Church and the Behemoth Guard is like really, really crazy snake-handling Protestants who have been reading waaaaaay too much Paul.

more like if the protestants were advocates of the book of Judas and the dead sea scrolls, but yeah. It's like reformed Mechanicumism

reformed with chayoss

>>49500583
>>49500533
>expecting anyone to understand some crazy christian parallel

In a more interesting topic.

I know a bunch of us are only here for the primarchs and the legions. So we should get prompts going to discuss that stuff.

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>>49500751
>he didn't minor in theology

>>49500751
>Prompts
What are the chaos legions up to during the Beast's invasion
What do they do after the warp storms prevent them from pursuing the loyalists?

How about the century siege?

How is the Dark Imperium organized? Does Anshul have shrine worlds all over the place?

How about some strife on the same sides, who does your March or State hate and fight with when they get the chance?

>>49500800
Haha. Makes sense. I've been doing Ancient Near East with a bit of OT, Albright School style. Only doing Paul this semester because they're making me. (That's what happens when the ANE is housed in the Religion department.)

>>49500751
Do we have four non-primarch champions of chaos?

>Korne
Captain Cullen
>Tzeentch
Kalvas Elsophar (who i know nothing about)
>Nurgle
????
>Slaanesh
????
>Malal
Jafar Caan

>>49500914

Kalvas Elsophar is a Behemoth Guard dude who could be a potential chosen of Tzneetch. Basically a librarian and master of the forge who makes abomination engines and the like.
The basic idea is:

Kalvas Elsophar, like so many other Behemoth Guard was recruited from the mist-shrouded world of Terrodyne. He proved as skilled with the arcane arts of the warp as with command and soon rose to a position of prominence, at times augmenting the durability of his brethren and their tanks, at others, divining the outcome of battles. He initiated the practice of planning campaigns in a manifold, allowing him to inload data as it came in and exload situation reports directly to his commanders. Like many other senior members of the legion, he was close with his Primarch, who displayed a level of paternal affection and pride that astonished many outside the legion, and it is theorized that the Changer of Ways approached the Primarch through the medium of Kalvas Elsophar. It is unknown when Elsophar began to treat with the foul powers of the warp, but once introduced, perhaps during the Xana Compliance, they proved intoxicating. When Imperial records next clearly sight Kalvas Elsophar, it is in the Sol System, his fleet having been tasked with the Luna Compliance. It is likely that Luna was the first time the infamous Abomination Engines the Behemoth Guard were unleashed, where fragmentary pict-captures record the stuff of nightmares crafted from immaterium. Wheels within wheels within wheels crowned by a nine-faced flaming beast's heads duel with genewrought dragons even as coiling tongues of metal that writhe in the shape of winged serpents, their wings covered in eyes tear Imperial fightercraft from the sky. Kalvas Elsophar roams the galaxy to this day, unleashing hordes of daemons and his newest creations in his wake.

>>49501010
Neat.

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>>49500914
Well, I know a bit of his backstory and know he leads the warband the Beloved Sons, but could never come up with a whole story/description/name for the Nurgle chosen. He worships radiation as the warm loving embrace of Nurgle and is spends a lot of his time irradiating/proselytizing around the galaxy. He has a huge huge army of ghouls at his beck and call.

>>49501079
>>49501010
As per >>49500200, I'm thinking when Gengrat wants something, he sends Elsophar. Elsophar circulates amongst the hellforges to gather tithes and see what new wonders have been created. His own ship, which needs a cool name, is an archaeotech Ark Mechanicum presented to him by Gengrat. The ship's core has a belligerent and intelligent sentience and has been sanctified in the name of Tzneetch by Elsophar, who spends long hours in communion with it via MIU. The on board forge itself is bathed in the warp, allowing the construction of the infamous abomination engines even in realspace.
When a crusade is declared and Gengrat himself does not lead, Elsophar is the symbol of his authority. Elsophar maintains this position through ever more inventive horrors of technosorcery.

Essentially, Gengrat has 9 Forge attendants, who are the best of his legion's artificers. The membership shifts over time, with tzneetchy star screaming to get into that inner circle, but guys like Elsophar are more or less permanent members, having been blessed by the changer of ways.
So there's nine primary houses in the legion with many more lesser houses and even more splinter fleets.
Gengrat has a direct line of authority to each, but tends to let the legion and it's domains run themselves. When he calls, they come.

>>49501436
what kinda thinly veiled stereotypical naming conventions do Second Sons use?

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>>49501667
I was actually going for something Colonial American, but as Chosen of Nurgle his name kinda has to be a reference to a disease or something. I contemplated having his name be Crabb, as in cancer, but that doesn't sound Space Marine enough. Karkinos is the obvious choice, but that's way too Greek.

>>49501774
Solomon Fect?

>>49501794
Decent, but he doesn't really infect anyone with anything. I'll think a little more about it.

Just a thought though, does the non-Primarch Chosen have to be a Space Marine?

>>49501866
Just my opinion, but I'd say an unaugmented human could be chosen, but it would require them to be quite exceptional, to be noticed by gods themselves while there are Marines with both superhuman strength and considerable if not superior intellect to choose from.

>>49502329
I was just thinking it might be interesting to have one be a woman. The Nurglite one especially. A mother's love, so to speak. Maybe the captain of the Second Sons Gloriana?

>>49502414
What would she have done to get Nurgle's attention?

>>49502469
Turned billions of people into ghouls by nuking their hive cities. The captain of the Second Sons largest nuke delivery system has probably ordered some pretty heinous atrocities. Especially after they fall to Chaos.

It's not anywhere near a fully formed idea mind you, I'm just mulling over ways to make the Champion of Nurgle not just "Typhus but with radiation".

>>49502518
I think that would be enough to get Nurgle's attention, but what would make her special enough to be chosen instead of a Marine? Does her personality make her the perfect choice? Is she capable of something more than a Marine?

>>49502676
Well, at the risk of sounding corny/cliched, love. She loves every single person she kills/mutates like their her own children. Maybe she ends up fused to the ship itself, so it becomes even more literal when she "embraces" the world's she comes to. Moreover, the Beloved Sons are just that. Her Sons. Her children, that she uses to deliver more people into the fold that is the nuclear warmth of Nurgle.

>>49502781
>Maybe she ends up fused to the ship itself, so it becomes even more literal when she "embraces" the world's she comes to.

Too much imo. The chosen are supposed to be the movers and shakers of the Dark Imperium after the daemon primarchs become basically demi-gods who are too high-level for mortal planes of existence. They need to be sort of down to earth in ways their primarchs aren't. What if she's sort of a Regimental Guard lieutennant who serves with the Second Sons and drinks the irradiated nurgle kool-aid? She finds out she has psyker powers and starts performing necromancy on her fallen soldiers, and it's the Second Sons so there are a lot of fallen soldiers. Same sort of motherly attitude, she's just keeping her boys marching.

>>49502781
>>49502831
Well, that does more or less sound like what kind of personality Nurgle would like. I'm not too sure about merging with a ship, nor of her raising the dead, unless there are limits to this ability.

>>49503716
With chaos, there's always a cost to power. Everything has limits.

>>49500914
Well, I did this guy for the Silver Spears:

>Cleophus the Immaculate
The master of the 7th Chapter of the Silver Spears is a monstrosity from the early days of the old Imperium. Known for his fair visage, Cleophus was respected by his colleagues as a war-sage matched by few, but as he grew in years and his remarkable looks soured his disposition grew cold and bitter. When the censuring of the Oathsworn was undertaken, Cleophus offered the attache to his Chapter sanctuary, on the condition that they use their gene-sorceries to sooth the changes wrought by time upon him. It is said that these traitors to their Brothers remain at his side to this day, their bodies twisted by millennia of grisly experimentation, Cleophus' closest ministers and advisors.

In the years since the Heresy, Cleophus has put myriad technologies and crafts to work on maintaining his beautiful visage, and, in time, many of these modifications have become unstable. Cleophus appears most of the time as an Astartes of supreme physical beauty, almost androgynous in seeming, but in truth he is a twisted mass of blasphemous genetech,

>>49504499
and in moments of rage or excitement his true self rushes to the fore, wracking his body with mutations so terrible and deadly that few have ever lived to tell of the true monster under Cleophus' thin veneer of humanity.

A consummate narcissist, Cleophus has somehow learned to transfer his mutation to his fellow Astartes via the shedding of blood - as such, those warbands in his service are nightmarish to behold. Doing so leaves him weakened, however, and he must constantly replace the blood he sheds with the vitae of the innocent. So it is that he campaigns endlessly through the galaxy, transforming idyllic paradise worlds into glorified blood banks, breeding men and women like cattle to enhance their flavour.


I actually intend on doing eight Silver Spears guys that generally stay in realspace, holding major Warp tears from which the rest of the Legion often emerges. This guy is one of them.

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>>49504499
That definitely works.

>>49502781
>>49502831
Sounds very Nurgle. I think it works better if she's independent of the ship so that way she can be taken down planet side and ride a palanquin while she raises zombies.

>>49500873
So to answer my own questions, I'm thinking that the Behemoth Guard exercises dominion over the Hellforges of the West. Gengrat himself has Mars for a personal forge.
Whether or not he has the title of Fabricator General doesn't particularly matter, Gengrat really doesn't care much about dogma, afterall, the revelations of the Spirit are perpetual and universal. What he does care about are his tithes of engines, blood, and knowledge.
The major forges are entrusted directly to his captians, but even smaller worlds are generally garrison ed by a chapter equivalent force, with precise disposition dependent upon the locale.

In this way, the hellforges supply the Dark Imperium.
I'll dig up some of the major worlds and briefly discuss changes, but Xana II is definitely a big deal, which probably generates some tension with Balthasar.

>>49506799
Agreed, but she should still be more than just a necromancer, I think. Maybe creator of a new disease, one that Nurgle accepted as one of his own? Just throwing some probably bad ideas out.
>>49503751
Indeed. What would be good limitations to this power? The cost for it? Maybe the first thing to consider is whether or not the ones raised from the dead have any intelligence left or are they just zombies.

so what kind of atrocities does the beast commit against the dark imperium to one up the stuff the books showed us

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>>49508886
>Indeed. What would be good limitations to this power? The cost for it? Maybe the first thing to consider is whether or not the ones raised from the dead have any intelligence left or are they just zombies.

After a night's sleep the idea of a high priestess of nurgle really appeals to me.

What if you have to sacrifice X soldiers to nurgle to raise X/2 ghouls, so she's constantly sacrificing enemy captives

What if it requires a great deal of radiation so she needs Dark Mechanocultists to build her badly contained nuclear fusion engines which quickly degrade and need to be replaced

Ghouls are definitely mindless zombies though, I'm imagining the Plague Zombies Typhus has, except on the table they'd have some sort of rule to represent they're irradiated, like reducing the enemy's toughness by 1 when in CC or something.

>>49509504
Good ideas. Especially the fusion engine idea fits the Second Sons, in my opinion. How long would these zombies last? How many could she control at any given time?

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>>49509686
>How long would these zombies last?
Eternally if everything goes right and she keeps the sacrifices and radiation flowing, mere seconds if not.
>How many could she control at any given time?
Lots. Whole armies worth, though she would have living soldiers and cultists as well.

Plus zombie tanks.

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>>49509844
>Plus zombie tanks
>Zombie tanks
>Zombie
>Tanks
>mfw I read this
It makes little to no sense, but for some reason, I still want to see it happen.

>>49509922
What's so hard to understand about that? They're tanks that have come back from the dead and hunger for the flesh of the living. Duh.

>>49510384
>tanks that come back from the dead
We already have those... sort of.

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>>49510452
Undying Scions are dead that come back as tanks.

Speaking of which, how do you feel about librarian dreads?

>>49510530
They're fucking great. Did you not see all the stuff about Idrias Stern?

>>49510594
>Did you not see all the stuff about Idrias Stern?
no, plis post.

>>49507694
>has dominion of mars
>Not fabricator general
so what happens when the dark mech fabricator general tells him to gtfo mars

also wtf do other legions let him control their forges.

none of what your saying makes sense

>>49510963
49510963
The reasoning is earlier in the thread, but basically, Gengrat is a technophile and is a force to be reckoned with--powerful legion, cool abomination engines, and support of one of the Four. All this means that if someone discovers something cool or there's a power vacuum on a forge, Gengrat is going to be all over that and will fight for it.
This would massively destabilize the Warmaster's dark imperium. So, since Gengrat is Gengrat, the Warmaster just gives him a title (I suggested Fabricator General, but not everyone is on board with that one). Gengrat's position gives him first dibs on tech and forges with the backing of the Warmaster. In return, Gengrat shares with the Warmaster and runs the hellforges.
This way Gengrat isn't a threat to his authority, but instead reinforces it.
It's power politics. Gengrat knows he's being played somewhat, but it's still in his interest to go along with it.

>But what of the other legions?
Well, Judgement Bringers do what the Warmaster tells them and don't argue.
Balthasar doesn't really care about tanks and shit. He's perfectly happy to let Gengrat worry about that.
I think the same goes for Kashaln and Aodhán.
I think the big issues would be Rubinek and Saul.
Saul is probably still pissed at Gengrat and Rubinek does his own tech and doesn't want that madman anywhere near him or his astartes.
Only catch is that he's dead.

So the Iron Hearts space probably has special status, which pisses Gengrat off and if Saul doesn't do his own tech, then the Iron Hearts probably help him.

>>49510985
>Gengrat's position gives him first dibs on tech and forges with the backing of the Warmaster. In return, Gengrat shares with the Warmaster and runs the hellforges.

So everyone else just goes along with it?

"Oh Second Sons, you wanted those nukes too bad I don't feel like it."
"oh okay boss, guess we dont need them"

"Silver Serpents need more ammo, but Kashaln was mean to me so im not going to let them"
"oh okay boss, guess we will just make war with bows and arrows"

Besides, its going to be much easier for the warmaster to control if he leaves the forges in the hands of the Dark Mech fabricator general who presumably he has good relations with since he convinced him to go rogue in the first place.

>Gengrat knows he is being played
by being made arguably the most powerful/influencial of all traitor forces. yeah, totally placed.

This is up their with the oathsworn in charge of the genebanks idea.

>>49510963
>>49510985
>>49510993
Gengrat invades Mars and hates the mechanicus, even the dark one. The Fabricator General is probably fucking dead, and Gengrat would push for him to not get replaced, to merely let the mechanicus be forever forgotten, replaced by his new tech cult. The Warmaster would see that as an opportunity to bind Gengrat to him, and agree to it.

>>49510993
Why would Gengrat say no to the other legions loyal to the Warmaster? They're allies, and Gengrat's not a tech hoarder like the mechanicus were, he's a proud father who wants his creations to flourish across the stars.

I don't understand why you think the dark mech would for some reason be more reliable and loyal than the Behemoth Guard or that they would somehow be immune to corruption when the Behemoth Guard wouldn't be.

Someone has to be in charge of the forges, so why would the Warmaster trust some asshole with that responsibility instead of his loyal technogenius brother?

>>49510985
>I think the same goes for Kashaln and Aodhán.

Aodhán would actually care quite a bit about managing his own stuff.

I can see the Dark Mechanicus fracturing in the wake of the Heresy, with assets siding with whoever they end up having to live with. Gengrat may end up being the official Fabricator General equivalent of his own cult in charge of Mars and most forge worlds in Segmentum Solar, but I doubt many Dominars are going to invoke his authority when some Bloodhounds guy lands on their planet and tells them this is all the Legion's property now.

>>49510611
I think VANTH probably has the original post saved, but I'll write up a new one.

Also this is entirely new fluff.

Idrias Stern is among the oldest of the sons of Funerus. One of the original Terran legionaries, Stern first showed psychic potential in the aftermath of Sarco's battle with the Eldar Phantom. During his primarch's long recovery period, Idrias and the rest of the legion were bidden to act as a support force for other legions. Stern's battle company was assigned to answer a distress call sent by a Warp Raiders company (not sure about their name pre-heresy) from the planet Murder. Stern's company was proven to be unprepared when they began taking heavy losses from the megarachnids endemic to the world. Stern's squad was cornered by one such beast, but found itself burned from the inside out by the Marine's power. The Warp Raiders legion proper soon arrived to rescue their brothers and stamp out the dangerous xenos once and for all.

1/?

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>>49511061
>a Warp Raiders company (not sure about their name pre-heresy)
Now there's a thought

>>49511099
The wiki page has them listed as the Knife-Ears, but I'm certain that that's a joke.

>>49511124
Yeah that's a placeholder joke

>>49511038
>why would evil guy do something that impedes someone else.

Well gosh i just dont know.

Ill throw out just the first thing that comes to mind... politics.

>>49511038
>no fabricator general
You realize the easiest perhaps only way to turn the mech for the heresy is to get the head honcho on yournside right? Or kill him and have his replacement on your side. Why would the warmaster NOT do that.

>why would you trust the guy who literally did it for the great crusade to do the thing he has spent hundreds of years doing/preparing for
>why would you install a puppet leader rather than someone yo can barely control
>why would you cause more friction within the dark mech by replacing their leader with one of 'your own' who goes against half the crap they believe is religious doctrine
>why would you install a leader who is at ends with 2 other primarchs
>why would you install a leader who is certifiably insane

Are you for real?

>>49511050
This is exactly what would happen if you put him in charge. The other primarchs would ignore his authority and according to your own reasoning he would chase down their archeotech except now he has a legitimate claim to it. Which means he can call in the dark mech and dark guard and judgement bringers and eyes to help him. Because its a direct blow to the warmasters supposed authority.

I'm thinking of writefagging a bit of the Black Suns later, if that's okay. And if it is, what kind of story you'd like it to be?

>>49511434

I would like you to kill yourself if that's fine with you?

Noticed theres still not a page for Redacted or the Oathsworn. Did Faustus ever have any actual friends? His legion was popular, but the primarch himself?

>>49511442
No, it is not. But I'll take my leave now as my presence seems to offend you. Keep up the good work, everyone.

>>49511560

If that's the best you can do, I suppose it'll do.

>>49511061
>>49510611
Like many of his brothers, Idrias Stern became heavily injured during the battle for Terra and was interred within a dreadnought sarcophagus. By the time of the 41st millenium, Stern is one of the oldest dreadnoughts of the Undying Scions. He is respected by all of his brothers and when he sees fit to stir from his slumber, entire chapters follow him to war.

>>49511560
Don't listen to that asshole. Not sure what his problem is but one person's comments don't represent the rest of us.

>>49511442
What is wrong with you?

>>49511685

Misquote? I'm not the one namefagging.

>>49511434
Sounds good.

Maybe them coming into conflict with the Bloodhounds. Them being hunted perhaps?

>>49511442
U can fuck right off.

>>49511480
There is a page for the oathsworn i saw it. Maybe its not linked properly.

>>49511695
We're all namefagging you mong. Next time read the thread before posting.

>>49511695
You must be new here.

>>49511724

Yes, and you all should kill yourselves.

>>49511735
and why is that

>>49510530
Thanks for the picture by the way, it's the perfect color scheme for the Scions.

>>49511755

You're attention whoring for no reason. If you want a pseudonymous discussion, there's a plethora of forums to choose from. Don't come shitting into this one.

>>49511790
how is it attention whoring maybe we just want names to help keep track of whos who

>>49511836

Maybe you should do it somewhere else then? Or alternatively kill yourselves, whichever you prefer.

>>49511836
Ignore that faggot, it's pretty obvious bait. Or he's fresh off the /b/oat and has no idea what he's doing.

>>49511050
>invoking Gengrat
Yeah, I think that'd be a dicey situation. A Heretek Dominar could invoke Gengrat and get Balthasar to back off a bit, but at the same time, doing so would be allowing the Behemoth Guard in, and that may well be worse for a heretek, since they basically see aspects of the old Machine Cult as tantamount to Nurgle worship.
So in practice, you'd probably see a lot of Dark Mechanicum holdouts hiding behind this or that legion and making use of Gengrat's alignment with Tzneetch.
It'd end up being a fuzzy area much like the OU, with the Warmaster using the situation to shore up his position, since everyone knows that it's the Warmaster that's keeping Gengrat from snatching up your forges.

The Warmaster uses Gengrat because Gengrat and his legion are brilliant and produce great work.
Gengrat puts up with the restrictions placed on him by the Warmaster because cooperating with the Warmaster gives him access to more cool shit without having to go fight for it.
Besides, Gengrat, as crazy as he is, is the kind of guy who makes stuff for other people as gifts.
Perhaps at the beginning of the heresy, he makes everyone something special. Even Enoch.

>>49511865
fair enough so back to gengrat and the mechanus Just how wide spread are his ideas about technology

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>>49511250
>You realize the easiest perhaps only way to turn the mech for the heresy is to get the head honcho on yournside right? Or kill him and have his replacement on your side. Why would the warmaster NOT do that.

You realise we're talking about after the heresy, right?

Why is Gengrat a puppet leader but the Fabricator General apparently not a puppet leader? I don't understand your preconceptions.

I'm not talking about causing friction with the dark mech, I'm talking about literally destroying it and replacing it with something else. The Adeptus Mechanicus priesthood has no place in a chaos run empire.

>why would you install a leader who is certifiably insane
The Warmaster is certifiably insane too dude. We're talking about kayoss ruling the goddamn Imperium.

>>49512665
how is there even an imperium

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>>49511480
Redacted should never have a page himself because the red link joke on the wiki is 2gud. I don't think any of the primarchs should have pages, they should just be described on the legion pages.

Eyes of the Warmaster def need a page explaining their deal though.

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>>49512690
What do you mean? Evil madmen rule despotic empires all the time. There's an imperium because there's a shitload of people and big scary men with guns who want to rule over them and do weird shit with their corpses.

>>49512711
I meant anything beyond a dozen systems paying tribute to a space born overlord who leaves them along after taking their shit every month

>>49511892
>gifts for everyone
Cause that hasnt been done before

>>49512665
The fab general is clearly the puppet referenced in that post. God damn. He is saying why would you want gengret there that you cant guarentee control over compared to someone you can.

>thinking the dark mech has anything to so with the regular mech.
Jesus

The making gengret lord commander of all the forges is just plain retarded. Its the same as giving the oathsworn the geneseeds. You are putting literally everyone war resources in the hands of 1.

Why would the warmaster trust him not to do his own rebellion.

What happens if his legion gets in a scuff with another legion. Ill tell you. They just shut down forge production

>>49511897
I'm not really sure, in part because I'm not sure about the nature of Heretek doctrines to begin with. I'm imagining he's got a lot in common with the guys on Xana II and his biggest divergence is over the nature of revelation, as discussed earlier in this thread. So if a rejection of machine canon is a common thing, then it'd be pretty widespread. Else it'll mostly be him spreading it, with some help from Mezoa's hermetic cult of spirit.

>>49511892
Running with the idea of Gengrat making gifts for the traitor primarchs:

>Enoch
Gengrat's gift to Enoch was in equal parts a barb and a genuine present. Gengrat crafted Enoch a custom Typhon Assault Gun. Knowing Enoch's ridiculous penchant for orderly advances on foot, Gengrat substituted interior transport space for enhanced force shield projection, so as to shield the infantry marching in formation around the tank.
In fact, Gengrat designed the tank's hatches to be too small for Enoch to enter, instead providing a platform from which the primarch could give orders.

Instead of Gengrat's usual sinuous and careful detail in decoration, the Typhon, simply called the Hammer, was a work of squares and right angles, as if carved from stone, rather than forged from metal, with a massive bulldozer drill on the front.
It is said that Gengrat explained that it was so that "My dear Enoch will no longer have those fits of confusion every time he reaches a wall. This way, he can simply to advance if he should even notice the obstacle."

>>49512898
maybe theres a schism between Gengret and the dark mechanus that the war master has to deal with every now and then that threatens to start another war with people siding based on the different benefits each offers
Gengret offers newer kinds of tech but hes also a serious threat who will come in to try and take some of your shit if he interested
vs
the mechanus who wont make much advancement but their less likely to kick your door down for some reason

Am i the only one that likes the idea more of gengrat being a forge dude who just likes his own little domain. Making his own junk. Maybe others who think its cool come and buy his machines. Making him like an arms dealer. Or rather his subordinates would be arms dealers he would only care for trades. Rare materials and or knowledge.

>>49513001
Id limit production too.

Gengret and his cronies make some cool stuff. But are few and far between. Unable to mass produce anything.

Dark mech only works of modifying or producing existing works. But damn can they make product.

Gengret might make you a super tank. But the dark mech can make you a tank battalion.

He might make you a custom lasgun capable of sheering througj power armour. But the dark mech can outfit 20 regiments.

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>Dark Imperial leadership c. M32-33

remember Imperium Asunder is also sort of 'what if the primarchs stuck around'

>The Warmaster
space Hitler

>Enoch the Relentless
Space Himmler, Master of the Imperial Guard. The Warmaster's right hand dudu and chief martial lieutennant. A 2IC as raydonon would call it.

Chosen 4+1, the brothers who remain most loyal to the Warmaster, after Enoch of course.

>Anshul the Resplendant.
space Pope. High priest of chaos, master of spiritual shit in the dark imperium. Preaches from the holy world Ravanna.
>Balthasar Bornhold
space Himmler, Champion of Khorne. Charged with the defense of the northern marches against crusader scum
>Gengrat Vannevar
space Werner von Braun, Vizier of Tzeentch, master of the Cult of the Machine, who run the daemonforges of inner Segmentum Sol.
>Saul Sheridan
space Goring, Warmashall Nurgle. High admiral of the Imperial Navy. Full rad-mad killer by this point.
>Kashaln
space Goebbels, Prince of Slaanesh. Rules from the Eye of Terror and many of the worlds within.

Less loyal guys:

>Oramar Elthiran
space Rudolf Hess. He was loyal to the Emperor the whole time he swears honest you guys why wont you believe him, come on let him across the firewall he's cool now. You want secrets? He's got loads for sale, come on, let him in!
>Rubinek
I don't even know what nazi he'd be but the Warmaster keeps him in Tempestus guarding fortress worlds and away from anyone who might look at him funny and get killed for it.

>>49513073
this sounds good

>>49512898
Gift giving is a trope for a reason.

>rebellion
The reason you'd not have to worry with Gengrat is because he'd already have what he wanted and have a lot to lose by rebelling.
Again, the other option is to have Gengrat off being pissy in his own domain, but then he's going to raid and steal stuff and be disinclined to hand out those sweet Abomination Engines and other war engines.
We can do that, but it will dramatically increase the instability.
If the Warmaster brings him into the regime, Gengrat may well be less pliant than a Heretek fabricator general, but he'll have to deal with Gengrat being angry.
The Warmaster seems the sort to keep his friends close and his enemies closer.

>>49513001
I like this idea, too.

>>49513011
That, I think, was the earlier version, but in thinking through how the Dark Imperium functions, the other idea is being considered.
He very well could have his own domain and not be close with the Warmaster, but Gengrat is going to do a lot of raiding to get what he wants, then, I think.
What you're describing sounds a lot like the Iron Hearts, who are pretty insular.

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>>49513095
>Saul
I could totally see the Dark Imperial Navy duking it out with Battlefleet Vigilance in Warzone Tempestus. What starship patterns exist as of M41? Would we reverse the patterns that the traitors and loyalists use in the OU?

>>49512898
>Cause that hasnt been done before
Who the fuck cares?

>>49512898
>You are putting literally everyone war resources in the hands of 1.
But if you have a fabricator general you're literally still doing that.

>What happens if his legion gets in a scuff with another legion. Ill tell you. They just shut down forge production
And that's how you keep an Empire from fighting amongst each other. By making them interdependent.

What happens if the American Marine Corps gets in a scuff with the Army? It's a dumb question, dude.

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>>49513095
>mfw the Warmaster has 2 space Himmlers

Aodhan is space Rommel by the way.

>>49513073
That could make a lot of sense and result in a weird and uncomfortable division between Behemoth Forges and Heretek Forges. Gengrat would likely tolerate the Hereteks who kept solely to things like Russes and lasguns. And it would also explain why the Imperial Guard hereteks aren't constantly trying to upgrade the tank's Behemoth Guard style.

Even so, the Behemoth Guard keeps choice forgeworlds for themselves to pump out things like landraiders, mastodon, and forgefiends.
Gengrat has administrative portfolio over them, they tithe to him, but Gengrat delegates it. Every so often, the Hereteks try to buck the system and the Warmaster usually steps in to prevent things from getting in the way of production, perhaps.

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>>49513095
>double Himmler

Hitler's wet dream.

>>49513168
Bumping this question

>>49513168
Unfortunately I'm not up enough on my fleet fluff to know much.
I imagine that the East would do a decent job keeping older patterns in circulation, with some careful innovation popping up here and there. I imagine they'd be working on battle barges and strike cruisers, likely the result of preheresy collaboration between Xun, Alexios, and Raydon.

Gengrat would be doing all sorts of weird things, but that would mostly be command ship type jobs.
I'm not sure what heretek ships would look like en masse.
It might be that the needs of the Imperium require them to have more reliable designs that are less likely to eat the crew.

>>49509686
Indefinitely, and direct control is probably not how it works. They do what she wants, but it's not like someone controlling a robot or a golem. Other Beloved Sons/powerful Nurgle worshippers can probably order them around.

Also, I imagine the actual rituals to create them on mass involve sanctifying the weapons used to create them. Plus, the people are essentially now totally dead. So they're the sacrifice themselves.

Also a Crusade.

>The Eleventh Crusade: The Nurglite Schism

For the entirety of M37 and M38 Saul Sheridan and his Second Sons have been disquieting silent. Sending only token forces as ordered by the Warmaster and consolidating power in their territory. In Mid M39, they go completely silent and refuse summons from the Warmaster himself. Then, with little warning, they begin bombing and massacring all sides in major war zones across the galaxy. Saul has declared his intent to finally scrub the galaxy clean of conflict, Nurglites across the Dark Imperium flock to his aid. Across the galaxy campaigns grind to a halt as nuclear fire is rained down upon them and tens of billions of ghouls and daemons pour from the warp. On more than one occassion traitor and loyalist forces are pushed together under desperate terms. The Nurglites are eventually repulsed and sent running back into the Warp, but the damage has been done. The Second Sons have betrayed the betrayers, billions lay dead or ghoulified and hundreds of once life bearing worlds are left barren.

>>49513124
>its either my way or the dark imperium would collapse because of SO much instability. Thats how badass my guy is.

There is a difference between being insular, ruling your own domain, akd ruling all the forges in the dark imperium. Guess what there sre even more options than that.

>>49513380
'Tolerate'. God this setting has so much potential but 2 guys are just overloading the threads with their wank.

>>49513992
>>49514241
>>49514429
How do you guys feel about Saul Sheridan dying during the Heresy/1st crusade and the SS having sort of a vulkan lives dealio. They don't think he's alive, but they think they will one day ressurect their primarch and he will return to scour the galaxy of all life. And then as per >>49514429, he does get ressurected, and he does (try to) scour the galaxy of all life.

If he dies during the first crusade it could be sort of a revenge killing on the part of the loyalists. 'They got Klaus, so we'll get that bastard Sheridan.'

>>49514539
I can get behind this. It certainly justifies why he doesn't just go straight to trying to destroy all life.

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>>49514522
If you don't like the direction the setting has gone in than you can feel free to fuck right the fuck off.

Gengrat isn't even Xun's character, the anon who made them up is gone.

>>49514570
Lol. You dont like some ideas so piss off. It doesnt matter what your opinions are as you arent me or xun.

So much for collaboration

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>>49514666
I'm saying if you don't like the threads don't post in them just to whine

>reeee your setting isn't realistic enough reeeeee
>reeeee I don't even like warhammer but I post in warhammer threads anyway reeeeee

>>49514735
Cause thats totally what happened

Holy crap I leave for a day or two and the thread goes to shit. Whats happened here?

>>49515583
some asshole came in and acted like a little shit
the other thing is a disagreement about gengrat and the dark mechanus

>>49514522
Look, I've said earlier in the thread that this is a potential idea. The original thought for the Behemoth Guard was that they'd have their own space and all that jazz. In trying to sketch out the dark Imperium, we're trying a different interpretation in which they have a role that's a bit more parallel to the OU Imperium.
That's all, man. I don't think the Behemoth Guard would collapse the Imperium, but it would make for a less unified, shakier place and at the moment, the idea is seeing how a more stable Dark Imperium would work.

You're perfectly welcome to propose your own interpretation. In fact, I'd really like it if you sketched it out. Just do me the favor of reading what I'm saying before going off and bitching because this isn't the first time I'm saying this.

>>49515675
Ill go back and re-read the whole thread, skimming through I didn't get very far before I was thinking to myself "what the fuck happened"

>>49514429
I like this. Afterwards, what happens? Is there a retribution campaign by the Warmaster?
Does this mean that Nurgle is getting antsy and tired of the status quo?
What does Anshul do?

>>49514539
That'd be pretty neat, I think. It would explain the level of violence around the 11th crusade.

>>49515746
>>49514735
>>49515675
Alright, my take on things sorry if some of this has been resolved already, imma type as I read the thread.

>>49493811
Google drive is a good idea, ill look into setting one up.

>>49496276
don't know anything about the beast saga, can't help much sorry.

>>49496895
I agree, He should be more or less on side with them. Maybe not perfectly, but not against them. He should have SOME control over the Primarchs, maybe a little less over Aodhan seeing as he has nothing to lose since he turns all mopey.

>>49496899
I see him uniting the D-Imp under him through an outside force. 100% agree with that.

>>49497007
Yep.

>>49497115
I disagree with the idea it has to be more unstable due to its origins. It might start off that way, but the Warmasters methodolgies would make it easier in the long run to control and stabilise.
>Control weakens as you go further from the centre
yeah, I like that.

>>49497120
+1. Seems wanky.

>>49497571
I Like this set up. Question though: why are there conflicting reports?

>>49497678
While I agree with this largely, we should remember the Warmaster has a whole legion of his own. He doesnt have to rely on imperial guard/navy

>>49499956
>Gengrat would have his fist so far up the Dark Mechanicum's ass he could turn their head like a puppet.
Is this what was being talked about further down? Ill return to this if so.

>>49500066
>Warmaster popes him Fabricator General
eehh

>>49500146
This is an interesting idea. Alternatively, keen the Dark Mech, but have him start something like the Promethean Cult - but you know, evil. So its like creepy inovation vs creepy modifications.

>>49500200
>going to be running around trying to grab the shiny toys anyways.
I saw him as more interested in making things, than stealing them. I might need to re-read about him.

> Gengrat is no longer a threat to the system
I don't think he really is a threat though? I mean the Warmaster holds most of the cards.

TBC

>>49500510
>Eyewitnesses on the ground several kilometres away are reported to have heard laughter
Thats some loud ass laughter.

>>49500873
1: Legions spend most time either infighting, or fending off attacks from Xeno and warbands. Everything the OU Imperium does.
2: whats the century seige
3: Dark Imperium should be almost an inverted Imperium. Anshul having shrine worlds is awesome. The Warmaster should lead a senate much like the OU Senate.
4: Hawks hate to fight loyalists, only doing so when they REEEALLY need resources, or if they think they are secretly chaos.

>>49503751
This isn't touched on enough.

>>49507694
>Gengrat himself has Mars for a personal forge.
Would he want that? I thought he absolutely hated the mech. I can't imagine setting up shop somewhere you deeply despised.

I like the idea of him controlling powerful and/or many forge worlds but I don't like the idea of him controlling all of them.

How about: The Dark Mech owns and operates the forge worlds inside the Dark Imperium, and Gengrat operates a smaller group in his own territories. They provide 2 different functions in my head.

>>49509504
Im on board for a high priestess. Maybe a sister of battle, wait did they ever get founded?

>>49510985
Question. Why isn't Gengrat like the other D-Primarchs who just turns seditary and wants to be left alone in his demonforge? Don't most demon primarchs turn into hardcore isolationists?

>force to be reckoned
I feel like its relative. I mean, all the major factions are the same, whereas the Dark Imperium has 2 Legions + the majority of forge worlds + the humans. Not to take away from the damage Gengrat could do. I see it more like Tau in the OU. Sure they can do some cool stuff, but against the weight of the (dark) imperium, they just dont hold up by themselves.

>>49512898
If someone can think of actually interesting and unique gifts then go for it, I personally think it would be really hard.

>>49513095
2 Himmlers.
Also whats wrong with 2IC?!

>>49515966
>Gengrat stealing/making
Yeah, he's more the type to make shit, I was just thinking of all the weird relic shit in the 40k universe. There's vaults on Mars full of Dark technology and it seems like most forge worlds have similar troves of terrors. Even some random worlds have that sort of thing, like Medusa.
So it's less that he's going to run around stealing random shit and more that if there's a cool ordinatus out there or a lost arcane daemon laser thing, then Gengrat is going to want it so that he can take it apart and make more.
And nah, he's not an existential threat to the system, but he could cause trouble, raiding, unleashing daemon engines, stuff like that.

>>49516111
>Gengrat and the Mechanicum
I'd been thinking it was theological differences. I'd been thinking he got on great with Markas Krom, which built the Kaban Engine, and Anarchis Scoria, here known as the Scorpion Prophet.
Mars has a metric shit ton of weird dark age of technology swag, which would interest Gengrat. It's also one of the biggest forges in the galaxy, which he would also like.

>Gengrat going sedentary
Yeah, most likely that's exactly what he does, hence Elsophar.

>Controlling some worlds
Yeah, I'm on board with that. Someone suggested that there's a distinction in the kind of stuff you get from them too that I quite liked.

>>49516163
Yeah I guess, I don't see that as a bad thing however. There should be a little bit of infighting. Its not like he is going to mobilise his entire legion to try and steal something from Balthasar for example.

>>49516163
It doesn't make much sense to me though, to have him reside at mars when his territory is so far away. I think we should leave mars with the Dark Mech, and have him set up shop elsewhere. Like you say, there is more than 1 forgeworld.

I like the idea posted regarding what you get from each of them.
You want tanks - dark mech
you want demon-possessed-suits of armour - see gengrats boys.
you want a one-of-a-kind hyperweapon - you need gengrat himself for that kind of thing.

>>49516222
The idea, I think, had been to move his domains towards Terra. Again, the idea was mostly to see what a more unified and centralized Dark Imperium would look like.
Gengrat being out in Pacificus works fine, but it does mean that he's more independent of the Warmaster, so for something like the Beast, he's more likely to take his time coming to the Warmaster's aid. He'll be doing him a favor and all that.
Which is cool, I just thought that wasn't the direction we were exploring atm.

I probably suck at rules but here's
>ENOCH THE RELENTLESS, PRIMARCH OF THE JUDGEMENT BRINGERS

WS BS S T I A Ld Sv
6 6 6 7 5 4 10 2+/4+

>Wargear
The Recluse: S+2, AP1, Armourbane. Unsaved wounds inflicted by this weapon become d3 wounds.

The Armor Inexorable: 2+ armor save, 4+ invulnerable save. Once per game, the first time an effect would negatively affect Enoch's statline, ignore that effect
.
Iste Protervus: Range 24" S5 AP4 Assault 6

>Special rules
Primarch (Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet Fearless, It Will Not Die)

Direct the Flow of Battle: Friendly blast weapons scatter half distance when targeting an enemy unit in Enoch's line of sight. Friendly units within 24" of Enoch may reroll the dice when making charges and sweeping advances.

Long Range Artillery Support: Once per game Enoch may fire a weapon with the following profile: Range Unlimited S9 AP3 Ordnance 5, Barrage, Large Blast

Relentless: Enoch succeeds on his It Will Not Die rolls of a 4+. While Enoch has 4 or fewer wounds remaining he has +1 strength and attacks. While he has 2 or fewer wounds remaining he has Feel No Pain.

Sire of the Judgement Bringers: While Enoch is in play friendly Judgement Bringer models are Stubborn.

>>49516402
Sorry didn't realize.

In that case, are we changing the map to reflect the fact that some of the traitor legions are actually part of the D-Imp rather than maintaining their own domains?

Im all for the idea of consolidating, but I don't think he needs to be on mars to be considered 'part of the team'.

>>49516449
Is Iste Protervus a 2 handed cannon of some sort? Thats what im picturing here. Also if Recluse is a mace, should it perhaps have unwieldly or something to indicate?
Just thinking outloud. Otherwise, I like it a lot.

>>49516449
I got tired of obsessing over how to word things 'properly', so I just went with whatever I felt got the point across. Also dammit the statline didn't line up.

>>49516449
>>49516480
Recluse should say two-handed, I forgot that. I also skipped the fluffy descriptions, but Recluse is a big-ass executioner-style axe. I imagined Iste Protervus as basically a heavy bolter strapped to his left forearm. But the 2-handed cannon is a pretty cool image...

>>49516553
Awesome. Keen to see the descriptions when you've done them.

Which is a nice segway.

PROMPT:
If each Primarch was caught in a fight unarmed, (presumably by something that doesnt just 'pop' to a Primarch punch) how would they fight? Would they know a martial arts style, if so what is it. If not, what would they do?

Has anyone here seen this?

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/User:Josman#Build_Your_Own_Primarch

If you ever wanted to stat your Primarch, this should help a lot.

>>49517157
neat

>>49516612
Raydon would use keysi fighting method, which emphasises instinctual gritty close combat, utilising the 9 points (hands, feet, elbows, knees, head) to maximum effect. Its the fighting style used in the nolan batman series as well as Mission Impossible 3, and Jack Reacher movie.

>>49516612
I imagine Xun using tai chi or wing chun, and Enoch being a boxer.

Saul I think would have a unique style, but I dont know what it would be.

>>49517394
Probably Krav Maga. Lots of attacking eyes, neck, and groin. Also improvised weapons to attack the aforementioned areas.

>>49516612
Enoch wouldn't "know" a martial art style, if fighting style when observed would be something of a combination of Krav Maga, boxing strikes, Judo throws, and wrestling holds. He'd probably be reactive, and against something similar sized his preference would be to take the fight to the ground.

>>49517433
If he doesn't know a martial art style, I doubt he would use a combination of anything. Even if he is a primarch, you don't just "do" judo throws, wrestling holds, and know how to throw a jab.

They take practise, you need to learn the ins and outs of each manoeuvre.

I think what you mean is he would just brawl and try and pummel the enemy on the ground.

>>49511718
The Hunt was on. The Bloodhound detachment had easily broken the defenses of Fenksworld: Mere mortals with bow and blade could barely slow their advance.
With the defending forces crushed, they could seek out what they came for: Books and captives for the Warmaster, blood and trophies for themselves.
Despite his victory, Corvak felt unsatisfied. The Black Suns didn't live up to their infamy in their lackluster defense. One hundred and fifty six Marines they had seen, and all but 26 had been slain. The last few ran into the forest, leaving behind their burning city.
Cowards, he thought, as he left his mount to follow tracks into the deepest part of the forest. Two hunters accompanied him, many more searched the area. Corvak hoped the remaining ones would provide him at least some sport. He led his brothers towards the edge of a clearing, where they saw them.
Thirteen remained, one overseeing the rest consume their brothers, dark blood staining the black and white plate of the traitors to all.
Corvak looked at the leader, made obvious by the white Iron Halo attached to his backpack. The traitor had several objects on his belt, several of which would make for excellent trophies along with his head, still covered by a helmet.
Shadows began to deepen, and Corvak felt a chill down his spine. He did not know what kind of sorcery was being used, but neither did he care.
"BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"
Cont.

>>49513380
Quick question, what are we renaming Leman Russes to? And would the traitors change the name of Malcador tanks?

>>49517834
I don't think renaming tanks would be a thing, unless they were modified. The way I think of it, if one nation captures anothers tanks they don't rename it. They might reverse engineer it and attempt to improve it (which would have a seperate name) but no need to confuse things with extra names.

As for the Leman Russ, thats a really good question. I'm for "Bornehold Battle Tank". Or if we need a loyalist, something to do with Marcus. Marcide Battle Tank? Marcad BT?

Good question.

>>49517895
It could just be the "Marcus Sinistrum" tank, but that might be too on the nose. I like the "Marcide Battle Tank".

fuck me i cant think of anything more autistic than this pathetic attempt at fan fiction

>>49518022
Then you're clearly not thinking hard enough dude.

>>49518022
I can. In fact im writing up my own homebrew sci fi setting right now. Youre lack of imagination is disturbing.

>>49518062
I hate to do this, but: *your.

But c'mon man, it's /tg/. Likely the most autistic place on this site after /mlp/.

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>>49518081
>.> I knew that. I hate that I did that.
ah.
God.
It hurts.
I cant not see it now.

>>49517741
Corvak stabbed the nearest Black Suns Marine in the joint of his neck, severing the spine of his victim. He quickly continued to the next, decapitating the second Marine as he reached for his weapon. Corvak's brothers slew two more, before the Suns could properly react. Their eyes burned as they charged, seven Marines whose features twisted as they approached. The last two, the leader and a marine with a black staff stared at each other, chanting.
Corvak blocked the first strike aimed for him, and avoided the next, which, to his surprise, was one of the Black Suns trying to bite him, despite having a sword on his belt. Corvak hacked and slashed, killing three of his adversaries, as his Hunt Brother was slain. Enraged, he and his remaining brother finished off the remaining four enemies. Only the leader and his lackey remained, the former limp on his knees and the latter pointing the staff at Corvak. A black lightning reached out of the staff, striking Corvak and his brother, searing their flesh and clawing at their minds. His brother fired back, his bolt pistol roaring vengeance.
Only the leader remained. Corvak checked on his brother, finding him unresponsive, his eyes dead yet still breathing. Corvak growled, truthfully uncaring of his brothers, yet their deaths were his failure. They were the strongest of his warriors, greatest of the eight hundred he commanded. Yet these maggots managed to kill one, and the other... He did not know what to think of the other.
Corvak walked to the last black-armoured traitor on this world, still kneeling, hands hanging limply on his sides. As Corvak lifted his sword, shadows deepened, and he could see them move on their own.
He raised his blade and brought it down, where it met only ground. The Marine was still there, but the blade had passed through him harmlessly. The traitor now looked up, his helmet's lenses reflecting a black orb.
Cont.

I have to admit it's quite unclear to me what the Black Suns are exactly. Loyalist Bloodhounds?

>>49518222
A Unique faction. They were once Second Sons I think. They follow a unique religion where they worship a 'dark star' known as the Tyrant Star.

IIRC it actually disappears and reappears all over the joint and they follow it around. Where ever it goes madness follows, it corrupts or turns mad the populaces of the planets it turns up at.

Its pretty cool.

>>49518232
Check. Waiting for the part then.

>>49518001
>>49517895
I'd been calling it the Sarco Funerus Battle Tank.

>>49516480
Most definitely. Again, this is all contingent on how unified we want the Dark Imperium to be, which I think is still pretty open atm.

>>49518388
I think at least making up a map, to visually demonstrate your intent, might clarify any issues anons have with it.

I like the sound of where this is going however.

>>49518388
>>49518403
I got the impression that the Dark Imperium was kind of like a confederacy. They're a single entity, but the different parts are very autonomous. When shit goes down, they are unified as one, but when they can, they're mostly independant. As long as everyone pays the tithes, it works alright. The Dark Imperium might actually run slightly smoother than the regular Imperium, since there are fewer layers of bureaucracy.

>>49518439
the dark imperium sounds like its really got a space feudalism theme going on
but maybe I need to take a better look on some stuff describing the government

>>49518144
As Corvak turned his gaze upon the evening sky, he saw it. Blindingly bright, sickly white light shone upon him from around the black orb that had consumed the star, yet the forest around him was dark as midnight, and all color seemed to fade from his sight.
"What have you done? What manner of sorcery is this?" Corvak whispered, his body trembling from the feeling he thought forever gone: fear.
The Marine slowly stood up behind him, removing his helmet. "You brought death to the Herald's world. His people. This... Is their vengeance.
The earth screamed. All around them, the darkness moved, and to his growing confusion, turning into horror he thought he was rid of, he knew the figures. Clammy, pale things, stretching skin and eyes of the deepest black crawled at him, moaning, screaming, begging and crying his name with voices he knew, both dead and living.
"Do not worry, brother. Unlike them, you will walk away. Tell them we will come when the time comes"
Corvak fell to the ground as a figure cried his name with the voice of his father, and the creatures surrounded him.
"When it is the time for all to be returned", the traitor to all said, his eyes burning with the same black flames as the sun in the horizon.

>This concludes the testimony of Corvak, deemed insane and wanting in the eyes of the Warmaster. All seven hundred and ninety three Marines under his command were lost in the battle of feudal world designation Fenksworld, since reported as repopulated and turned into a polluted hive world. The battle took place in Warmaster's year 428.M37.

>>49518439
Thats how it was first envisioned essentially. What Xun is talking about is bringing most factions more 'into the fold' while keeping some outliers such as the Negators and possibly Iron Hearts.

THose who would be like vassals, but otherwise left alone. But everyone else would be an active participant in keeping the Dark Imperium up and running.

>>49518403
>>49518439
>>49518502
So this would then imply that the Warmaster has pretty tight control over at least some of the domains. So do we want that?
And then if we want the ordered Dark Imperium, but also like the idea that the Warmaster is always a minute away from catastrophe, what's the cause? Is it that his concensus is fragile? Split camps inside the Imperium? The gods themselves compelling their servants to self destructive wars?

Persobally, I like the idea that the Warmaster has a concensus that is very fragile. He's done the impossible, but that takes constant effort.

>>49518868
it can be somewhat stable when the but still prone to instability when the gods start a fight amongst themselves which might bring in the primarchs and there domains

>>49518868
I don't like the idea that he is as you say '1 minute away from catastrophe'. I really feel like its conflict for the sake of it. it feels really artificial. Where for the most part this setting has evolved organically.

I like the idea, that he has most factions under his authority, if not his direct control. Some people are bigger pains (Aodhan), but this works to bolster Aodhans character - but even he isn't immune to the Warmasters demands.

We can still have infighting, the legions have splinter factions much like the Black Suns who go their own path. Some might lose themselves to khorne and just want to sack whole systems to gain khornes favour. Others might think they are the chosen of Tzeencth and go about doing XYZ because they think thats right.

Its just not the 'normal' thing to do. Factions can still have issues, and infight in accordance with the big 4's will.

>>49518981
I agree.

While it may be the nature of Chaos to destroy itself, the Warmaster should manage to keep things under relative control. The will of the 4 gods may be constant strife, but the Warmaster is above their pettiness. I have come to believe the Warmaster cares about humanity first and foremost and even though his methods may be more than twisted, he is very efficient. He considers the Dark Imperium to be the best solution and he needs his brothers, so he will do whatever he needs to keep them under his influence.

>>49518981
That's fair, I was thinking of Tzneetch and Nurgle and Khorne and Slaneesh rivalries flaring up. And how do you control Balthasar?

>>49519257
I like this a lot.

>>49519478
simple have him grow seditary the same way all primarchs do as they age.

Make it so by 40k timeline he only gets off his ass when khorne himself tells him he has a job to do.

>>49519257
I just say him as the combination of two traits, pride and effeciency. Its not that he cares, its that he can't deliver anything but the best. He is supernaturally skilled leader, and a perfectionist. He couldnt give 2 fucks about humanity but he cares about running a smooth Imperium

>>49519580
>>49519478
One of the most important pieces written for this whole setting is The Anathema.

Maybe things have changed since that moment, but Oramar and the Warmaster realise that the only way for humanity to survive is for the Emperor to die.
It's a horrible choice he has to make, even he realises that, but he puts humanity before himself and the Imperium of Man.
In my opinion, he would be making a complete 180 if he suddenly stopped caring about humanity, and only about himself.

>>49519648
The catch with the Anathema is that as I understand it, Alexios intended that Oramar be all about beating chaos, but the Warmaster saw an opportunity for power. By getting on board with Oramar, he could sieze control of the Imperium.

This said, I think I prefer this interpretation. The Warmaster is basically Lord Genome.
If humanly is to survive, chaos cannot be denied, and for that, there is no price too high.
If this is the case, then the Warmaster would decide that eternal war is the only way to protect humanity. He'd need to choose loyalists specifically to be able to endure. He'd also be somewhat at odds with the chaos gods in that Khorne and Slaneesh have no impulse control. Tzneetch and Nurgle might get that the status quo must be maintained, but Khorne just wanted the blood to flow.

>>49520221
I've never watched Gurren-Lagann, but from what I read off of the wiki, it is indeed what I think the Warmaster, and the Imperium, should be like.

>>49519580
>>49519648
>>49520916
So then with all this, I think we have a pretty cool scenario where the Warmaster supports and venerates the 4 and keeps things stable for the sake of humanity. He does it through a weird rigid order. Unlike Oramar, though, he isn't trying to topple chaos. He's accepted the situation.

So I'm thinking he is in a weird position where he is trying to keep chaos placated, because chaos is stupid greedy. So he has to keep chaos from burning through its supply of souls. Could have various gods get impatient and pressure him to act, which, in part is why Saul goes on a rampage. Nurgle is feeling left out and has Saul shake things up a bit, spread some decay.
The 13th crusade, then, is the Warmaster satisfying the gods.

If the Warmaster's goal was eternal war, then did he choose not to approach certain primarchs, knowing that they'd make good resistance?

>>49518022
I explain these threads to my family/friends as "so I was writing some bad fanfics last night..."

I like to think none of our regular posters have any illusions about this setting more than it is, and that's what makes it work so well.

Humility is an important aspect of creativity.

>>49518771
This writefaggotry is neato

>>49519648
I think the ending of that bit of writing is a little bit misunderstood.

Oramar believes all that stuff. He believes the Emperor needs to ascend to godhood, and that he won't do it willingly. Oramar sees himself as a loyalist to the Emperor, forcing his father to do what he is too humble to do himself.

The Warmaster doesn't really believe or care in the same way. Oramar thinks that 100% no contest the most important thing for humanity to do is to defeat chaos. He thinks they can't survive otherwise. The Warmaster thinks differently. He thinks Chaos doesn't need to be destroyed, it can be used. Used to give him a throne.

>>49521461
I think being able to boil a character down to a single adjective is a useful writing too.

For horus, that adjective was Ambition. They say it in the books over and over again. Horus wanted MORE, and eventually he wanted more than the Emperor could offer him. His ambition and pride fueled everything he did.

For the Warmaster, what is that word? I'm not sure if I like it being something like 'devotion' to humanity or anything like that. I'm thinking something more like jealousy and envy. The Warmaster hoards power like a dragon hoards gold, and gets purturbed/angered when others have power that he lacks.

>>49521843
The word I most associate with the Warmaster is 'efficient'.

So given all this, how about we stick Gengrat and the Behemoth Guard in a distributed domain on the Pacificus Solar border, a set of Hellforges. There's a few forge worlds that fall under their purview, but most of Mars is left to the Dark Mechanicum, who build the tanks and lasguns.
Gengrat doesn't really care about these lesser beings with their self-imposed shackles, he's an artist and so long as the great minds are not constrained by the fears of lesser men, he is content to leave them to their toil. The Warmaster has given Gengrat right to relics from the Dark Age of Technology, and in return, Gengrat is the Warmaster's artificer.
This controls the flow of war engines.
In a similar, if a little more antagonistic, position is Anshul with his cardinal worlds.
It really looks a heck of a lot like the Imperium, but with a more organized feudal system. It's what the East could have been, if Xun or Alexios had submitted.

The thing that keeps chaos from booming and destroying everything is twofold.
First off, the Warmaster doesn't want that because it loses him his empire.
Second, chaos is chaotic and counter productive. The four fight and Anshul agitates for more power. Balthasar goes on bloodquests. Saul tries to kill everyone.
The Warmaster maintains control through constant effort and he's damn good at it, but the crusades that are a necessary part of how he maintains control are also very risky, a mistake could shatter his control and send all the pieces he has so carefully arranged flying off in strange internal vendettas and insane warp hunger.

>>49522827
I agree with both points.

>>49519648
I always saw that as Oramars motivation, and then the Warmasters. But once he goes chaos, its all about himself.

You could even argue that subconsciously he wanted it to be true, so that it would leave him the galactic ruler.

I don't think there is any need to have a secretly good-bad guy. I think there is real value in an unabashedly prideful big bad.

>>49521683
>explain these threads to my family/friends as "so I was writing some bad fanfics last night..."
So do I!

Bamp

>>49522775
I find that to be an incredibly boring basis for a character.

He tore the Imperium Asunder and conquered himself a galaxy because, what, he just wanted things to be really efficient? That's pretty fucking boring and dumb if you ask me.

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>>49517157
I used this to build a Balthasar. He costs a shitload of points.

>>49522775
I see where you're coming from on that one. It's the efficiency that comes when you arrange every single minor detail. He's a weird one.

>>49525240
I'm thinking that the solution appealed to the Warmaster in part because it would be his order. Once he went chaos, he got used to it. He accepted it. You might say he vadered himself, but to channel Xun, I'd argue that the Warmaster fell not because of his vices, but because of his virtues.
Chaos being chaos, though, the moment you open up that space, it comes to take over and by the time you hit the Heresy, it very much is about the Warmaster's Empire. Eventually he even comes to believe some of his own Terrasoc.

>>49527859
Speaking of Balthasar, (and given he's basically a daemon at that point, I might bump that cost up a bit), how does the Warmaster keep him in check for the first few thousand years?

>>49528044
So fell for his virtue, but is kept there by his vices.

>>49528044
Why does he need to be kept 'in check' as you say?

>>49528444
I suppose I'm just kind of imagining a massive horde of Khornate Berserkers running around everywhere, including into the Dark Imperium.

>>49528586
Why?

If they are so wild that they need to be actively 'kept in check' I imagine it wouldn't be hard to just trick them into a trap and kill them wholesale.

Or bait them away and into something else that is going to kill them.

Or have them fall to infighting, as they quickly run out of things to kill they turn on each other.

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>>49528586

"The most terrifying monsters are the ones who act like men from time to time"

-Balthasar Bornhold

>>49528990
actually this might be better as a Graha'nak quote ABOUT balthasar

>>49528648
That works.

>>49528990
That works even better.


So then for the most part, the AU is "lucky" enough to have traitor primarchs who aren't Angron-tier, traitor primarchs who can form a functional state. The Warmaster chose very well.

I'm also thinking that part of his choice not to involve Xun and Alexios was in hopes that the two of them would form functional states that would be ultimately unable to cooperate effectively.

Same for Kor, probably, since Kor would have been pretty easy to turn to Nurgle.

So I suppose the next question is does anyone suspect the Warmaster's game? Does Balthasar echo the Bloodgod's cry for blood and accuse the Warmaster and his limited war aims of cowardice? Does Gengrat, so close to the Changer of Ways suspect that stalemate is the Warmaster's true aim? (Not that I think Gengrat would care much. But Tzneetch might see it as stagnation.)
If anyone suspects, I think it's something they come to after a few thousand years, not something they decide upon at the beginning.
Something along the lines of: cont.

>>49529527
I want to say that post-interment Sarco suspected something was up, but I'd feel like I was wanking the Scions too much.

>>49529557
Wait I misread that, disregard my post.

>>49529498
Seconded.

>>49529527
"You know, [REDACTED], it's bothered me for centuries, the way you handled the end of the 8th crusade. At the time, it seemed like you were being cautious and, when the Hunting Grounds flared up in rebellion, it seemed like you'd had some inkling of what was to come. Too precient one might say, as if you'd caused it. But not enough to arouse suspicion. Certainly Balthasar would never notice. Except for the 5th crusade. And the 3rd. Never quite able to strike that decisive blow. Now, our brothers in the East are no fools, but they are fewer than us, and yet we have been unable to force a telling contest against them. Luck, perhaps. Ego. Anshul has claimed rights on the Serpent King. Still, it all adds up to a strange picture. And it occurs to me that without the East, we would have no enemies. And the Warp would subsume all. It would look like the situation just before the fortuitous Beast.
Now, I personally do not care. I make my engines, I scheme, my sons act in the name of divine progress. But my patron does not see as I do. The Changer of Ways desires new vistas and new realities, even should it prove self-destructive. They're like children that way. Of course, your secret is safe with me, The Changer of Ways does so love our intrigues, and, for the moment, I think this one would satisfy him.
But it will not forever and I hope you have a plan for when that day comes."

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>>49529591

>>49529566
Though given that the Sarconaught was only revealed at Nikea, it would make sense if the Warmaster had been preparing to approach Sarco, figuring he'd be another pliant Aodhan, but found the new Sarco much to mellow for heresy. So you might have odd happenings, perhaps even some companies who had already been swayed , or something.

>>49529527
I don't like the idea he "chose" some over others. I think he would have probed all of them in different ways to gauge the likihood of them joining. Then simply acted on the ones he thought would be most receptive.

He probably didn't think Alexios or Xun would turn on the Big E, so gave up on them. Rather than having it be all part of some elaborate plan, which doesnt quite make sense.

Kor is too A: independent and B: idealistic to give into something like nurgles idea of love.

>anyone suspect the Warmaster's game
No. I would say its not even his plan, its what works best for his backers. He just wants to rule his empire.

>>49529656
As I said, I think he would have done research on all of his borthers, come up with a plan to tempt them, and then just started with those he thought would be most receptive.

Maybe he got to all the ones he could, maybe he got scared that someone was on to him, so he initiated the heresy with only half, maybe it was Oramar who convinced him he had enough to take it.

>>49529748
>I think he would have probed all of them in different ways to gauge the likihood of them joining. Then simply acted on the ones he thought would be most receptive.
isn't that exactly what choosing means

>>49529776
Nah, I meant specifically selected some Primarchs not to approach specifically because he thought that they'd make good enemies in his eternal war.

In particular because I think if Oramar had explained to Xun the reasoning pre-Nikea, Xun might just have listened.

>>49529656
I've already touched on the minor schism between Terran Scions and their Amaranthine brothers. Maybe I can use that as a starting point.

I just had a little realization about the idea of Saul dying. You could take the whole Kurtz comparison a little further and have him be killed by an agent of the Warmaster because he's gone too far off the deep end.

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>>49529527
>Does Balthasar echo the Bloodgod's cry for blood and accuse the Warmaster and his limited war aims of cowardice?

Aside from good ol Enoch I think Balthasar would be most receptive to the idea of eternal war. The Bloodhounds kept his fleet above Octarius for a long time, intentionally leaving the Orks alive as a sort of hunting preserve. They might see the Crusader States the same way. The Blood god's thirst is sated by the daily sacrifice of millions of slaves from Storm Kingdom borderworlds across the Storm of the Emperor's wrath.

Shit, if the Warmaster told Balthasar about keeping perpetual warfare so that the state always has an enemy, he'd probably think it was the best idea since swords (he thinks sliced bread is overrated. )

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>>49529847
Jam all the great Vietnam movies together and you get the Second Sons.

>>49529776
I can see what you mean, but the two different versions im seeing are.
>Warmaster says I want X to join my rebellion, goes about trying to get X to join
or
>Warmaster scouts out everyone, finds that A is never going to join, B might maybe, C would be on board. Goes to C, then twists events to make B more likely before approaching. Never approaches A.

>>49529866
>>49529808
I don't think "eternal war" should be his goal at the outset, if at all.
At the outset its just a bottomless pit of questions. At the end, it goes against his ambition to rule the perfect Empire.

It works for the Chaos Gods, not him.

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In terms of timescale I'm thinking Balthasar goes full daemonprince by ~M33, after the bloody and vicious warfare against WAAAGH: The Beast and the first few crusades. After that he becomes less of a continual presence in the DI, instead appearing from the warp when summoned by chaos sorcerors. As a side note, I think Kashaln has a similar deal. They both go FULL daemon, becoming basically demigods.

Balthasar's territorial holdings, command of the Bloodhounds, and Balthasar's seat at the Warmaster's command table, are all inherited by Captain Cullen Blackburn, Balthasar's master of the legion. Cullen rules like an iron tyrant and is a loyal soldier for the Dark Imperium.

>>49529847
>>49529876
"And those were his dying words?"
"Yes my lord," replied the assassin.
The Warmaster thought about them late into the night. Death and vindication. It was like something out of a half-remembered dream, where the firey eyes in the mirror were not his own.

>>49529866
Swords make sliced bread, anyways.
That's a fair point.


>>49529928
>Eternal War
But it kind of does, 1984 style. War is Peace. War allows him to keep his coalition bound tightly. Without a common enemy, the cult legions will begin tearing each other and his Dark Imperium apart.

>>49529928
>it goes against his ambition to rule the perfect Empire.
See this is why I don't like the efficiency motivation. Couch it in as much moustache twirling as you like, it makes him essentially a good guy. The Warmaster should want power above all else, and most importantly he should want personal power.

>>49529983
yeah, War is Peace. The Warmaster wants power, and perpetual warfare is a tool he can use for power.

>>49529983
I agree it works as a tool for him, but what im saying is that if somehow over night all loyalists and xeno and rebels disappeared. I don't think he'd be upset. He would just invent a big bad.

I see it more as him capitalising on the nature of the 40k universe rather than part of some elaborate plan.

>>49530010
I see it as ambition and pride. He wants to rule the perfect empire for 2 reasons. 1 he wants to rule the most powerful entity in the universe. (ambition) 2 he thinks he can, he sees himself as perfect, he thinks he can do what the big E couldn't. He thinks of himself as the greatest of the Primarchs, peerless in statemanship, war, and politics. (Pride)

>>49530093
I like your analysis of his character, but I think he'd have a problem with the other traitor legions if all external enemies vanished. He'd have to get them to go to war with each other, which is fine, but I think he also needs something to remain of realspace, since the Warp will burn itself out without souls to feed on. I've never been quite clear on that one.

>>49530198
Well yeah, if ALL external threats somehow vanished as per my hypothetical he would have an issue with the legions, but thats never going to actually happen. I mean, even if you could wipe out the loyalists and eldar, and necrons, the orks will always be around. Im not sure its even theoretically possible to remove them entirely.

>>49517157
Kinda need to iron out LA first, I suppose. I'd been imagining Xun as a utility primarch. Probably give him Fulgurite, Librarius, Technomancy, and Diviniation powers, make him roll for it, but let him use them on a 3+ or something.
Post heresy or post some event during the heresy, he can take Sanctic powers, too.

If the LA benefits are Scout and some sort of melee deal, then I could see him giving furious charge or rage or maybe a buff to combat resolution. Definitely +1/-1 to reserve rolls. Maybe something that allows disordered charges out of reserves?
Perhaps something to hand out free PotMS?
Something to reinforce the aggressive, mechanized nature of the Sky Serpents legion, while also mechanically representing their divide and conquer ethos.

>>49530286
Ah, ok.
>>49530455
While I'm rambling late night style, Gengrat is probably decently similar ruleswise to Manus, Perturabo, and Vulkan. Not really sure what BG LA would look like. Something to let you take crazy transports, and a way to hand out servo arms and Cybernetica cortex es is a must, but that's legion gear.
Base ruleswise, I might steal the Iron Hands inviolate armor, since JB is more the don't take pinning tests, the Hearts have high toughness, and the Fists I dunno. FNP?
Of the two, the Behemoth Guard are the more likely to give buffs to their tanks.
What do people think?

>>49530603
I'd give Ironhearts.

FNP, and either +1T or they reduce the Str of enemy attacks by 1.

>>49530645
I think +1T makes most sense for the Iron Hearts because it will still work in CC. Though honestly I kind of see them looking a lot more like a Renegades/Blackshields list where they have a decently different statline. +1T -1I, that kind of thing.

Conversely, Behemoth Guard benefits would be due to superior wargear. Inviolate Armor, master crafted weapons for characters, maybe some sort of enhanced accuracy like Bolter Drill.
(Ooh, might give the Serpents the Luna Wolves style Death Dealers)

So perhaps LA Behemoth Guard:
Inviolate Armor: Shooting Attacks at a -1 Strength
Shock Troops: bolter weapons gain pinning when within half range.
Mandatory Drawback: Need a HS choice

Wargear:
Characters may Mastercraft a single weapon for no cost
Any IC can take a cortex controller for x points
Librarians who do can use cybertheurgy, but must generate at least one power from the technomancy table
Iron Behemoths: vehicles may take upgrades as follows
Whole weird set of vehicle upgrades, effectively starting with a 10-10-10 box and letting you go crazy with it.

Provisions for taking all sorts of Cybernetica units, but with weird restrictions for things like Ryza pattern plasma bombards, since Ryza wouldn't let them anywhere near that shit.
Desperate allies with the Mechanicum with a few specific exceptions to represent certain forgeworlds like Xana II and Mezoa.

Ugh. I want to write them a codex now. I have a squad of Vorax in the mail. They're going to be Behemoth Guard.

>>49530884
>Whole weird set of vehicle upgrades, effectively starting with a 10-10-10 box and letting you go crazy with it.

Id go with a few variations. Like +1 All, or +2 front, or +1 front, gains fast. That sort of stuff.

Oathsworn LA
Gene Masters: Any Oathsworn Veteran Sergeant can be upgraded be given a Nathercium for +15 points.
Without Number: Must include an extra troops choice, but it does not have a br a mandatory choice.

Unique Equipment: Some sort of snake staff like Faustus has as a power maul that once per game becomes ap2 instant death but reduces to one attack. Looks like the twin snake staff that unleashes a terrible biophage in close combat.

Poison hellfire rounds

Unique Units are their bio warfare destroyers, and their pumped up super marines who roll on a table dark channelling/possessed style. If their care taker/sergeant passes a ld test they can reroll at the start of the turn.

Rites are about reintroducing destroyed units from reserves to represent them outlasting the siege on Luna, and a crazy anything goes one that makes the gene spliced marines compulsory troops repping the battle for Terra.

Any updates on getting that Google Drive going?

Also, what do the Primarchs sound like? Does your primarch have a booming voice, or a softer and relaxed one? Any (voice) actors you can give as an example?

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keeping the thread alive

>>49533479
The thread is dead today. Everyone just burned out?

>>49527859
Out of interest, what weapons would Balthasar have used before he came into possession of the Athame?

>>49534123
Eh, it's probably just a combination of work/school and timezones. CEST here.

Final bump from me

are the tau dead in this AU

>>49535454
The Tau are a subject of contention between the Kor Protectorate and Imperium Minorum. Several proxy wars have been fought between them in Tau territory, and while the Protectorate seeks to incorporate them into the empire, Imperium Minorum wants their annihilation.

>>49535619
So the tau empire is gone as the alien alliance factio

>>49535454
The Tau Empire is sort of gone. It still exists, but T'au itself has been glassed, and much of the old empire is pretty much dead. IIRC at this point the Tau are part of the Kor Protectorate.

>>49529866
Aodhán is pretty okay with the idea of eternal war.

He doesn't think the Warmaster can keep it up with the Ruinous Powers breathing down his neck, though.

Fists here, flicked through the thread a bit. Isn't mars blown the fuck up?

>>49536520
>Isn't mars blown the fuck up?
I've been thinking about this too. I think a good answer to "Does Gengrat rule Mars or leave it in the hands of a Fabricator General?" is "mars is fukken gone m8"

Gengrat's home is Terrodyne but IIRC Terrodyne is a pre-industrial swampy shithole which he probably just visits from time to time for recruits.

I propose that the home base and headquarters of Gengrat's Cult Mechanicus is on Ryza. Forgefiends are all about that dank plasma, after all.

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>>49532705
Repeating these questions.

Also, did we get a concrete answer to the Leman Russ tank question?
So far it seems like a toss up between the 'Sarco Funerus' tank, the 'Balthasar Bornhold' tank and the 'Marcus Sinistrum Tank'.

>>49536815
Fists here, dear god dont call it the "Marcus Sinistrum Tank" that flows like mud, if your going to use my name notice that i use "Sinister" as a tad that means marcus had a hand in it. The Sinister Battle Tank sounds much better, that being said not a vote on which of the 3 it aught to be.

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>>49536815
I'm in favor of Sarco Funerus. the LR tank was named after LR's tenacious ferocity, and SF has that in spades.

Also I'm not sure I like the idea of opening a google doc to organize stuff for the wiki. Just put it on the wiki. Pic related.

>>49536853
I think "Sinistrum pattern" sounds a little better than "sinister pattern." but I agree including Marcus makes it clunky af

>>49536853
Well, yeah, both the 'Marcus Sinistrum' and 'Balthasar Bornhold' tanks sound awful. I should have phrased that slightly differently. The question is: who should the tank be named after?

>>49536876
The Google doc wouldn't be a way to document the setting as a whole, just a way to share the notes people themselves have made. Then we can start funneling that info onto the wiki.

>>49536921

spitballing here

Funerus Pattern Tank: What's called the Leman Russ in cannon

Sinistrum Pattern Tank: A baneblade with plascannons

Bornhold Pattern Tank: A Land Raider designed to carry bulky troops like reavers and terminators. Has fewer mounted weapons to compensate.

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>>49536983
>What's called the Leman Russ in cannon
>cannon

Hehe

>>49536983
Seriously though, since noone's actually going to respond, I think this is pretty sweet.
Sarco is tanky enough to take over the Leman tank, a plascannon Baneblade seems 'techy' enough for Marcus and the Land Raider will help with the (re)deployment of heavy troops, excellent for hunting.

I think those names work great.

>>49536983
I honestly assumed that we were already dubbing the Leman Russ of this universe the Funerus pattern. I recall someone else doing that in a bit of writefaggotry about seven or eight threads back.

Anyway, 100% agree, the Funerus Battle Tank has my full support.

>>49536572
>I propose that the home base and headquarters of Gengrat's Cult Mechanicus is on Ryza. Forgefiends are all about that dank plasma, after all.

I agree with Ryza being the center of the new Mechanicus. I assumed Gengrat's cult was concentrated throughout Segmentum Pacificus and was separate from the Dark Mechanicus/the Warmaster's Mechanicus though.

>>49536572
He may have tech'd up Terrodyne. Turned it into a huge furnace world. It's not like the locals would mind the chance from swamp shithole to industrial shithole.

>>49538311
Ryza is in the Segmentum Solar, near the Maelstrom, though.

>>49538825
Teching up Terrodyne would work pretty well, I think, location-wise. It's close to the Eye.
This said, Gengrat doesn't seem to be the sentimental sort and I think he'd love any major forge.
What if he's setting up to take one of the forges and has a vision of what could be done with Terrodyne. He puts a Forge Tyrant in command of the forgeworld and runs off to Terrodyne to work his vision in adamantium and souls.

>>49536815
I put forward Marcide Battle Tank, which is based of Marcus. Otherwise as per >>49536853
the sinister battle tank sounds cool.

>>49538311
fun 'r' us battle tank? wut?

>>49539532
It's like a Fire Raptor except on the ground, Raydon.

>>49538850
I was referring to Gengrat running the Cult Mechanicus as the thing I assumed wasn't happening.

I thought he had his own thing going on and the Warmaster had a new Fabricator General running the Mechanicus show on Ryza.

>>49539532
>fun 'r' us battle tank?

That just makes it even better.

>>49539899his
>own thing going on and the Warmaster had a new Fabricator General running the Mechanicus show on Ryza.
Thats what I think its best as well. +1

>>49539760
God I love Fire Raptors. Literally the entire premise of the Hawks was a way to have bulk Raptors.

Added some stuff to the Silver Spears' page.

>>49540311
Awesome. I particularly like the infantry specialisation section. It draws a nice parallel for me to the Hawks, who are the same, but also the opposite. Relying on cross training and specialist ammunitions.

So where the silver spears have a bolter marine who lives and breathes his bolter, and a flamer marine who lives and breathes his flamer.

The hawks are trained in every weapon right from the start, but specialise with bolters, utilising the variable munitions to cover the gaps in their offensive capability.

Only ever taking up a missile launcher or heavy bolter if it is crucial to the mission, but having been trained and practised on it, just in case.

Anyway getting carried away. Awesome characterisation.

>>49539899
>>49540257
Roger that.
So then we have a funky dual administrative system for the forges, with Gengrat and the Behemoth Guard doing custom artificer abominations in the West , possibly based on the divinely inspired hellscape of Terrodyne Forge. Meanwhile, the Dark Mechanicum, much reduced in glory, operates from Ryza, their designs strangely prosaic affairs like Balthasar Battle Tanks and Chimeras. Some worlds don't even add warp flame gargoyles.

>>49540934
I dig it.

>>49540311
>>49540575
I agree. I actually think the extreme specialization is really slaaneshi, with every soldier devoting himself into the infinite depths of his particular 'art'.

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So, we seemed to come to the conclusion that Malcador re-established the Astra Telepathica along with the Sisters of Silence on the far side of the Firewall, building the beacons and such.

Would it be farfetched to say that Grey Space is populated by a number of powerful noble families under the umbrella of the Astra Telepathica, and that it's a political force in its own right? It seems like, with the extreme importance of psykers and navigators now, the body governing them would also have a great deal of clout.

I'm envisaging huge noble houses of navigator/astropath bloodlines bolstered by vast armies of Orders Militant (I'm guessing that only a minority are true Sisters of Silence these days, as one of the qualifications for being a SoS is being Untouchable) type forces. These guys basically control travel between the Crusader States and into the greatest of warzones, so they'd be fabulously wealthy, and the immense risk involved in displeasing them could be the reason why none of the wars between States has ended with the destruction of one or the other.

>>49541203
Yeah for sure. Honestly I think the Crusader States from firewall to rim are mostly just navigator houses and small factions warring with each other and vain primarchs standing a hundred lightyears away drawing green and purple lines on maps that basically mean nothing.

>>49541203
The Navigator Houses will always be a powerful political entity in 40k. I don't think that would change in Asunderverse.

I think it definitely stands to reason they are given a seat on the Security Council. I can see them maintaining 'Household Guards' in the form of armies/navies but I think the loyalist forces would sanction them in regards to exactly how much / what type of stuff they can have.

Sort of like the treaty set up post WW2.
Something like:
Legion-proper forces are allowed 5 capital ships, the Imperial Armada is allowed 3 and 'independent loyalist forces' such as the Navigator Houses are allowed 1.
5:3:1 - we could go next level and have it be Armada:Legions:Other

And modify a few hundred years after the legions break up to be.
Legion (5)
Armada (3)
Chapter (3)
Other (1)

Which leads them into unique compositions of their navies, having a bunch of carriers, being able to afford them and them not falling under the 'capital' designation. Stuff like that.

Maybe even limiting WMD from those factions, things like exterminatus and virus bombs only allowed to be used by the Armada as a way to balance power.

Probably some cool conventions in regards to land forces as well.

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>Asunderverse would probably have a Codex: Astra Telepathica

Muh diiiiiiiick.

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>>49541203
>>49541372
>>49541412
I'm essentially imagining the Dune Spacer's Guild except instead of weird mutant fish people it's psykers. Because they were founded by Malcador, they'd perpetually have a sense of regal authority, thinking they're the true nobility of the Imperium. When Orders Militant come to worlds seeking psykers to keep the beacons lit, there's rarely any question of disobedience, for their authority in such matters is law. Definitely a major political force.

>>49541484
I think they should be exactly that though, a major political force. Not a major military force.

>>49541484
The Spacer's Guild are the actual inspiration for the Ars Telepathica, so that makes sense.

>>49541521
I think they'd become pretty militarily powerful out of necessity, and through being in a position of extreme power where they can play loose with rules and jump through loopholes. They're not able to duke it out with an entire Crusader State or anything, but IMO most noble houses should be a match for a Chapter.

>>49541372
>>49541412
>>49541484
Much yes.
I like the idea that these arms treaties mostly serve to inspire creative book keeping on the part of the legions to circumvent limits.

I also like the idea of an "Old Imperium" functioning to keep the Beacons running and the like.
They're the navigators, the Astropaths, maybe rogue traders, Silent Sisters, and even some Custodes who serve the realm and are "above politics". They might also have a deathwatch type organization and maybe even a secret Grey Knights equivalent.
They usually stay aloof, but when they talk, you listen.

>>49541626
I think a chapter would be a good basis for their upward potential.

Using this post >>49541372
as a guide to their naval might, combined with
>playing loose with rules and jumping through loopholes

I can see some Navigator houses being able to rival a chapter, and surpass weakened chapters. The big weakness they would have is being essentially limited to guard regiments with storm trooper support. They shouldn't have anything near the capability of Astartes.

>>49541699
>on the part of the legions to circumvent limits.
In saying that, the treaties favour them. I don't think they are the ones who need to circumvent the limitations.

>>49541372
Would Battlefleet Vigilance be allowed more capital ships than a regular armada due to its importance as a bulwark against the west? If not, I could see the Scions donating their ships to the battlefleet because space combat doesn't fit their purview of what an astartes should do.

>>49542407
I imagine they'd get some sort of exemption or the books would be majorly cooked in their favor. Maybe since they're the vanguard of the Segmentum Tempestuous, they'd get additional forces for sector defense, which, since the sector is not in Imperial hands translates to additional ships in the standing fleet.
The dumber and more roundabout the paperwork is, the better.

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>>49542445
>The dumber and more roundabout the paperwork is, the better.
this guy gets me

>>49542407
Rather than that, consider.

5 is what the legions are ALLOWED per capita. its not a total of 5, but they get to set the build rates.

Most legions would not waste their resources on maxing out a fleet of capitals. I mean, why would you as you say only the Battlefleet is really "at the forefront". So rather than allow them to get bonus ships, consider that they are one of the only factions that utilise this cap.

>>49542445
I really think its better to stick within the confines of the rules rather than just immediately come up with exceptions. As I explain above.

There are plenty of ways to demonstrate they have a larger fleet in regards to capitals without providing an exemption.

>>49542445
That doesn't really seem like something people in such a precarious position would do, even if it is really pretty interesting.

>>49542534
His point is that exemptions, exceptions, caveats, and loopholes are things we want governments in the crusader states to have in spades, rather than things we want to avoid.

Remember, we're designing a bad government, not a good one.

>>49542407
>>49542445
I realise that may have been confusing, so ill expand.

The treaty would put in place a ratio limit of say 5:3:1

Ergo, for every 5 capitals the Legions have, the Armada is allowed to build 3 and other-factions are allowed 1.

This doesn't mean they need to build 5 or in multiples of 5s. It means that should the scions but a 25th capital (being on 24 for the last 200 years), now all factions lower are entitled to another 3 / 1.

>>49542556
I know I know. But there loopholes are far more interesting that exceptions. For example, rather than just allowing them a disproportionate amount, it allows for more story to be develop. Off the top of my head. Imagine, they are nearing the 24. A navigator house has already maxed out its 4 capitals and reeeeally wants a 5th. So they use diplomacy and cash, to incentivise the scions to build another. Maybe paying for half of it. Because once its done. boom they get another. They might use this insider information to prepare an attack force on an otherwise stalemated conflict. As it takes quite a while to prepare a capital so for a while they will have the edge over their enemy.

Likewise, by having this limitation, maybe other forces have to build larger and larger fleets of escorts and cruisers, not being able to dictate how many capitals they have but being unhindered with smaller ships.

>>49542610
I can get behind this kind of politicking.

>>49542651
Yeah, just trying to get across the idea that loopholes and such are more fun than exceptions.

>>49542538
>>49542556
I'm imagining that the primary dynamic in the Crusader State Governance is an ongoing conflict between Xun and Alexios. The core of the state is designed to be pretty damn robust, the remnants of the Old Imperium set up by Malcador. That's where you've got your Astropathic Relays, your Beacons, your Navigator Houses, a basic Inquisition with Ordos Xenos, Malleus, and Hereticus, and the like.

The problem is that Alexios has a brilliant social mechanism that he's set up in his works. Xun has one too. Alexios doesn't like Xun's because Xun makes use of all kinds of open-ended systems, he's very much a get the infrastructure set up and the details will work themselves out kind of guy. Xun is like that scene in Scars when the White Scar fleet drifts as if disorganized, before suddenly, in a single coordinated moment, accelerating to max speed and taking Alpha Legion by surprise.
Alexios finds Xun reckless, disorganized, etc. Xun says that Alexios can't compensate for unforseen circumstances.
Either system, if committed to would work pretty well. But as it is, neither of them will submit and the two of them have some of the biggest, most powerful legions left in the East.

>>49542698
What? How is that relevant to this
>>49542679
>>49542651
>>49542610
>>49542556
>>49542538
discussion?

So much about this post is self aggrandizing.
1) You say Xun and Alexios despite Xun being dead for the later half of 30k timeline.
I hope you mean the Serpents and Angels. I hope.
2) Why the fuck would ANY other faction give to shits about their petty little differences, why would that be the PRIMARY dynamic in a galactic coalition of states. Like what?
3) We get it. We get the fucking Serpents. Rapid dogs that can simultaneously be hyper-coordinated. MASTER logisticians and ferocious close combat masters. Asian-Mesoamerican philosopher monks. WE GET IT. You literally could have summed it up with
> Alexios finds Xun reckless, disorganized, etc. Xun says that Alexios can't compensate for unforseen circumstances.

>two of them have some of the biggest, most powerful legions left in the East.
What since when? The Angels explicitly disperse their power through the chapter system. ENTIRELY to reduce their power. Literally the purpose is to limit their potential and Alexios would be a huge fucking hypocrite if he were to exercise some sort of summary authority over the chapters (assuming he somehow could) AFTER he published a book encouraging everyone else to disperse their power he would be immediately excommunicated by the states and their leaders. More self aggrandising no doubt.