Imperium Asunder

>>49335648
Alexios Constantine, The White Angel, Primarch of the Angels of Light

>Did your they participate in any noteworthy campaigns during the Great Crusade?
He conquered reagions in eastern Ultima Segmentum early, then spent most of the crusade alternately ruling on Constantine and commanding his expeditionary fleet.
>What expeditionary fleets did they command or serve with?
The 44th expeditionary fleet was his. In the latter stages of the Crusade he mostly joined the expeditions of other primarchs as support or reinforcement.
>What major worlds did they have a hand in bringing to compliance?
The Varangir Stars, the core worlds around Constantine, and as secondary commander on many more.
>What would a random Imperial Citizen know or think they know of them?
If they're from his territory, he is the guiding light of the Emperor's authoritarian grace. Elsewhere, probably very little.
>What does the Emperor of Mankind, Beloved by All, think of them?
Extreme pride. Alexios' accomplishments embody the Emperor's homes for the Imperium of Man.

>What do their direct subordinates think of them?
They revere him and stand by him zealously.
>How do your dudes relate to the mechanicum?
Alexios has great respect for the rights of the mechanicus and incorporates many Machine Cult concepts into his Euangelia Theologia in M36. He sees their role as distinct and prefers to work with the Fists of Mars rather than train his own techmarines, though there are some.
>Does your faction launch raids independently of a crusade? What are they looking for?
Each successor chapter of the Angels of Light is founded with a distinct and explicit goal, granted to them by the determination of the White Angel and his administratum. Quite often they are chartered to take territory in Tempestus, or defend the Neutral Zone bordering the Kor Protectorate, or other military tasks. Sometimes other Crusader states petition Imperium Minorum for aid, and chapters are founded in response.
>Does your faction have any noteworthy chapter relics?
Several Athame blades were recovered from the Bloodhounds and are used to attempt to create daemonspawn of the God Emperor.

I have a couple of ideas for joint crusades, might be cool to get ideas for.

Sky Serpents and Eyes
Sky Serpents and Void Lords
Super psyker squad

Behemoth Guard and Second Sons
Behemoth Guard and Fists
Behemoth Guard and Judgement Bringers

Void Lords and Judgement Bringers

Angels and Serpents

>>49335648
>Did your legion participate in any noteworthy campaigns during the Great Crusade?
The Undying Scions led the scouring of Mor-rioh'i, the Eldar craftworld responsible for crippling Sarco Funerus and consigning him to life in a dreadnought sarcophagus. For months the Scions tracked the craftworld through the galactic north, eventually cornering them in the Gharos system. What followed was a battle of titanic proportions as the full might of the legion descended upon the Eldar. In a desperate attempt to save themselves, the xenos let loose their most terrible weapon of war, their avatar of Khaine. In the end, not a single Eldar soul survived and Sarco took the avatar's wailing doom as his own, naming it the Baleful Blade.
>What major worlds did they have a hand in bringing to compliance?
The Undying Scions partook in the subjugation of world's such as Valhalla, Catachan, and Tallarn.
>What would a random Imperial Citizen know or think they know of them?
The citizens if the Imperium saw the Undying Scions as stalwart defenders if humanity, sacrificing their lives for the betterment of man.
>What does the Emperor of Mankind, Beloved by All, think of them?
The Emperor saw Sarco and his legion as a work in progress. They did not fit his expectations when he first visited Amaranth. It is for this reason that He spent a significant amount of time leading the legion when Sarco was recovering from his duel with the Eldar titan: to shape them into what he saw as the perfect legion.
>What do their direct subordinates think of them?
Sarco's sons idolize him in all things, and seek to be closer to him by emulating him in all they do.
>How do your dudes relate to the mechanicum?
Before his interment Sarco saw the AdMech as a nuisance, but afterwards he begrudgingly came to accept them.

>>49335648
>>49335634
I think you linked the wrong comment to your first comment.

I like the idea of Raydon calling out the Warmaster and being like if this is wrong i dont wanna be right.

Something like he might order the hawks to hide the Oathsworn. Then turn himself in, which actually leaves a good reason for him and the majority of the fleet to be sent off during the inital heresy. Them being sent off on some penance quest.

The warmaster figuring Raydon is already at ends with big E, and with all his best mates backing the Warmaster, AND a convincing tale about how they were the loyalists and how the renegades killed the Emperor before the Warmaster could stop them. That would be enough to have turned him on side. Yes. I will save this, write it up and put it on the wiki.

>endeavours into the West.
Yeah i think we should convey the best way to survive going west is to do so quietly, and not stay there too long.

Or in a massive invasion fleet. But there is no middle ground.

>>49335640
I dont understand. I think there is a 30k Legions format. Im on my phone right now but i think there is a standardised formation - its just the names that change (chapter, cohort, brotherhood etc - all being a grouping of X marines with Y support elements

Pasting this here. Will return when able

>>49336247
>Does your faction launch raids independently of a crusade? What are they looking for?
The Scions frequently launch invasions of the resurgent Eldar Empire, seeking further vengeance for their primarch's defeat at their hands long ago
>Does your faction have any noteworthy chapter relics?
The Baleful Blade- the Wailing Doom of an avatar of Khaine. Hangs above the great galactic map in the council chambers on Amaranth. Wherever molten wraithbone falls on the map, the Scions send a force of marines.

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>>49335648
>Which Primarch do you personally like the most?
REDACTED the sneeki breeky spylord warmaster with 1984 propaganda is cool as fuck

>Which Primarch do you personally like the least?
Graha'nak is boring and his name is goofy

>What would you change about the setting or a particular character or faction if you could?
I think it'd be interesting if the chaos gods and daemons were represented a little bit better. Most of the traitors seem apathetic toward them.

>Xun, the legion, and the Mechanicum
I've got some ideas I'd like thoughts on.

Pre-Xun, the legion isn't particularly tech-happy. They have good relations with the Mechanicum and respect them, in part because they respect the arcana, but also because they like to keep their gear nice, it's a coping strategy to deal with their aggression.

Xun, coming from a bronze age world is fascinated with technology, math. Warp-tech, everything. So where Oramar is after Xeno-tech, Anshul is after sorcery, Sinister and Gengrat are tech junkies, Xun is a generalist who ends up championing sorcery because he sees a need for an advocate.
He encourages the legion to study and experiment within the bounds of the Mechanicum, as well as trying to optimize the equipment for the task.
So he moves the relation from something like Raven Guard and Mechanicum to an active patron of Explorator fleets.

Thing is, Xun is trying to understand what is going on, he isn't looking for dogma and he's inclined to experiment the same way he is with the warp. I'm thinking he brings the idea of the Sicaran to Sinister and asks for help in developing it, for example. Similarly he's the sort to borrow patterns and equipment from other legions and adapt it.

So I suppose the question is how Mars feels about this feral world sorceror working with the son of the Omnissiah to innovate a new tank.

(Again, idea is that Xun dabbles in everything, in part to sublimate his red thirst. He's not the best at any single field, but he's a damn good synergist, which is how he excells in his mobile warfare. Divide and Conquer!)

>>49336265
>Big ass molten sword hanging over a map, acting as a sort of oracle
alright thats pretty bitchin

So in the 41st millennium, with the warmaster winning and creation of the dark imperium, is there any reason for the legions of old to be broken down into smaller chapters?

>>49336512
The Legions without the Emperor simply lack the authority or power to keep that many marines in check, and either carefully fraction their legions on purpose or watch helplessly as it inevitably happens.

Once the Emperor dies, everyone in the galaxy, on one side or the other, would be disillusioned with authority and Imperial structure. Schisms and mutinies are inevitable.

>>49336512
>>49336919
I think a bigger process is the strategic realignment. Alexios is pretty able to hold things together, but he, like his brothers, shifts to a theme system as a result of the defensive posture. Basically, chapters are formed to allow marines to autonomously hold territory without a need for a central supply and command system.
In Alexios' case, he figures he'll be there, so he makes chapters.
Xun just gives the Tzolkin patrol areas and local recruitment capacity while leaving the upper levels of the legion hierarchy intact, but Tzolkin were always meant to be semi autonomous.
I'm not sure what the others do, but they break up into autonomous units as a means of securing their space, that way a single bad battle can't destroy the entire legion. Instead an enemy must fight their way through a hundred chapters who know their sector well.
It's pretty much the strategic shift that the Byzantines did.

(So you may be asking why Xun doesn't do it. It's simple. He's not Byzantine, the cultural antecedents I'm working with are different so he acts like he's from the Qin dynasty or warring states.)

>>49336246
>Sky Serpents and Eyes
The Eyes probably fought alongside everyone at one point or another. Writing about fighting alongside them could be helpful from everyone.

>>49337662
I'm not particularly fond of the VL scheme either, but I'm trying to not shut anything down completely. It's just that two Legions with dark red and black doesn't work well.
As for using OU schemes, I completely agree. Those bastards took all the good ones for themselves, but we still have to try to do our own thing and be somewhat original.

>>49335648
Did your they participate in any noteworthy campaigns during the Great Crusade?
> The Scouring of the Medusa Cascade
> The First Battle of Orion
> The Conquering of Tannhauser Gate
What expeditionary fleets did they command or serve with?
> As one of the premier fleet commanders, he served with dozens of Expeditionary Fleets over the course of the Great Crusade. He made his home with the ‘Lucky’ 13th.
What major worlds did they have a hand in bringing to compliance?
> Deliverance, Talon, New Hope, Stormvald, Forgefane, and was the Lead Commander for the conquering of the Baal Sector.
What would a random Imperial Citizen know or think they know of them?
> hmm. Im not sure. In 30k timelines I guess the same if not less than most Primarchs. In 40k timelines, I think Xun uses him as a bit of propaganda so likely known there. As for the rest of the Crusader States I guess it would vary on how much they want to inform their citizens.

> If this is asking about the Legions themselves, they would see them as essentially the Navy. Because 90% of the time that's what they are. Its what they do. The are masters of Void combat and dominate the air. The public wouldn't be privy to their sneaky side. Its sneaky after all.

Anyone care to extrapolate for me what the States would allow their citizens to know?

What does the Emperor of Mankind, Beloved by All, think of them?
>Im sure he was happy with him for the most part, after the censuring of the Oathsworn and the Ironhearts he might have been frustrated with him, maybe even considering taking actions against his insubordination.

Again im not too sure about this one.

>>49337866
What do their direct subordinates think of them?
>He is a soldiers-soldier. He fights with his troops whenever he can, he doesn’t risk the lives of others for glory, and he always goes into bat for his own. He is well respected, and they seem him as one of their own for the most part. If anything they are too friendly with him, and their treatment towards him (and by extension the other Primarchs) is a matter of ill repute whenever it comes to the surface. But to their credit, they try and act professional when with outsiders, so as not to bring shame upon their leader.

How do your dudes relate to the mechanicum?
>Mostly through proxies. They maintain a few forge fleets, but due to their importance they rarely join the raiding forces. They have most their work done in Forge Space, the Vigil or the Jade Empire. Sending equipment to where it is best suited to be looked after. This makes them simultaneously very reliant on the support of others, and somewhat free from the shackles of any one faction.
Does your faction launch raids independently of a crusade? What are they looking for?
Do they raid?
>Yes, it has been known to occur.
What do they look for?
>They plunder the Dark Imperium, bringing back relics and resources to the East. They seek to extract a blood toll upon the traitors. They are looking for vengeance.
Does your faction have any noteworthy chapter relics?
>It does and it doesn’t. Its most noteworthy Relics are the Star Forts that rove the Dark Imperium, and the ships they use to traverse the chaotic wastelands without detection. As for weapons and such, they revere any tool used by a famous elder, and almost every linage within the Legion has some sort of ‘famous’ lost relic.

>>49337879
Which Primarch do you personally like the most?
> Rubinek
Which Primarch do you personally like the least?
> Gengrat
What would you change about the setting or a particular character or faction if you could?
> I still don’t quite ‘get’ the Silver Spears. But I think they are coming along in their own time, maybe bring everything in abit more inline with OU canon and such.

Can someone explain to me how and why the Warmaster got turned?
I'm assuming that, like the main 40kU, he wasn't the first to fall.

>>49336512
There is and isn't.

Which is why some do, notably the Scions, Angels, and Serpents.

And why some don't. Oathsworn, Hawks, Knights.

Pretty much, those with flexible leadership and/or small numbers manage to stay together. Those without fracture as disagreements and stagnation set in.

>>49337898
Uhm, I think he actually might be the first.

I can't remember honestly, Alexios might recall.

>>49338260
Then I await the Librarian's response

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>>49337898
After Nikaea, when Oramar Elthiran and his Warp Raiders are on the run from the bloodhounds, he discovers the Interex, who tell him all about Chaos and how it's just the worst thing ever. He starts studying ancient sites on many xenos worlds and learns as much as he can about chaos. With his gift of farsight he sees a great many things, and determines that the Emperor of Man must achieve Apotheosis if the Chaos Gods are to be truly opposed. To ensure that happens, he concocts a plot.

Oramar manages to tip off some of the Warmaster's Eyes that he's on the Interex homeworld, and the Warmaster and the Bloodhounds come hunting. It's an elaborate trap and Oramar just as Keikaku's the Warmaster, slashing him with the Anathame blade. He fights Balthasar, who shatters the blade with his bare hands and crushes Oramar's fucking bones. The damage is done, however, and the taint of chaos from the blade warps the Warmaster's spirit to eternal darkness.

lemme find that writefaggotry I did the other day.

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Tried making the Negators pop out a bit more.

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>>49338554
I'm going to dump this in the thread for funsies then put it on the wiki. This is some time after the Interex incident and the initial corruption of the Warmaster. The wheels are in motion at this point.

>The Anathema
>Four years after the Edict of Nikaea
>Azrimuth, homeworld of Oramar Elthiran and the Warp Raiders.

Oramar stood on a great embankment of till and stone overlooking digsite V. Around him stretched salt flats for thousands of miles, with massive crystalline formations dotting the landscape at geometrically regular intervals. Digsite V was at the perfect midpoint of three of these formations, a deep terraced pit with walls reinforced by Imperial engineering. At the base of the pit was a strange, tetrahedral ziggurat of unknown xenos design. The ziggurat was constructed of warped bone, bleached by centuries of salt exposure. On each of its three surfaces were ninety nine triangular balconies, and on each one stood a tall guardian of the same warped bone. The guardians had no faces, and held lithe looking curved blades or tall pikes.

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>>49338665
With Oramar were five of his closest brothers, called the Ṣaḥābat. Inducted into the Vth Legion from the tribe of Oramar's youth, they had been his brothers long before he met the Primarchs. Each of the Ṣaḥābat was master of a kabal, a school of study in the arts of the warp and the nature of reality. Each of them bore different weapons recovered from digsites just like this one. Ja'far wielded a clawed gauntlet with lobstered armor, Khalid a lance whose tip glowed like the sun, Mu'adh had two pistols which fired bladed disks, Jabal carried a wraithbone sword and a shimmering shield of light, Umar a fusion cannon. All of them wore shimmering pearlescent armor like that of Oramar's. The light of Azrimuth's ultraviolet star made their armor radiate with a thousand iridescent hues. They reflected similar colors in far deeper dimensions of reality as well. In the warp reflections of reality, their suits of armor shone like beacons in a sea of darkness. And, like beacons, the intent was to draw something's attention.

Oramar could feel his familiar, Sharsk, draw near to him. It was an inconstant thing, prone to long bouts of nonreality. At present, it chose to look like one of the salt lizards of Azrimuth, with crusted halite across its back. The creature was anything but a mundane lizard, however. It was a manifestation of thoughtform itself, a being of the warp. It was one of the djenni, the dark spirits of the void. Sharsk's body was formed not of matter, but ideas. Those ideas were what Oramar needed, for ideas are powerful things.

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>>49338673
Sharsk sang in the warp, and Oramar listened. The song made promises to Oramar. Any wish he desired could be made into reality, any thoughtform could be created, if only he offered sustenance. Oramar sent a telepathic signal to his brother Mu'adh, and he stepped toward Sharsk. The false lizard rose its head, sniffing curiously. Mu'adh reached into his beltpouch and pulled out a red gem. It was perfectly round ellipse, and deep within its lustrous interiour there lingered a pulsating glow.

Oramar deftly touched the warp beast on the chin, guiding its mind, and consequentially its body, toward the stone. Once it caught the scent, however, it needed no guidance. Sharsk pounced upon Mu'adh, slobbering over him in its haste to reach the stone. Once it had the crystal in its jaws, it crunched down hard, and the whole digsite flashed with warp tremors. Oramar and his Ṣaḥābat reeled as their telepathic senses were assaulted by the screams of a thousand dying souls. A resonation came from the pyramid below, and Sharsk caught a new scent. The beast flowed down the embankment, not so much moving as inhabiting several places at once.

When it reached the Ziggurat, it crawled upward onto one of the statues like a spider. It sunk its jaws into the plain, swept face of a statue, and revealed that they were hollow. Within the statues were millions of gems like the one Mu'adh had discovered. The fel beast gorged itself on the souls of the longdead, growing from a lizard into a fat, asymmetric blob of concentrated ecstacy. Oramar and his brothers climbed down to the ziggurat with reverence.

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>>49338681
Oramar examined the pyramid's mathematical structure, finding the appointed place. He flew upward on telekenetic wings, landing on a balcony in perfect golden mean proportions. He placed his finger on the surface of the pyramid, and a sigil appeared to him through his third eye. The wraithbone surface of the pyramid parted, strands pulling apart like sinew. Inside Oramar found a massive chamber. The walls at first seemed like mirrors, but Oramar quickly realized he was seeing outside the ziggurat. He could not see the wraithbone of the pyramid nor the statues, but he could see the soul stone gems. They floated like stars around him, and beyond them he saw the digsite and the towering salt spires. He looked around him, and he could see patterns emerge between floating red orbs and the stars in the sky above. He analyzed these patterns, and quickly determined they were a form of written language.

By the time Oramar had determined the structure of the language, three more Djenni were feasting at the bottom of the pyramid. There were a great many statues who lay below the horizon from Oramar's perspective. Oramar had determined these were the souls of commoners, lesser people who managed to earn salvation but had little real honor or worth. These low stars were not organized into words, but decorative geometric patterns which framed the piece above. While it hurt Oramar's aesthetic preferences for the creatures to damage the piece, none of the true signal was lost. It was worth destroying art, so long as you managed to extract meaning from it first.

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>>49338696
The high statues at the top of the pyramid were great heroes, priests, and warriors, aranged into aspects like the ancient zodiac. From these aspects Oramar translated a recording which he estimated was older than Terra itself. He spoke in a voice which carried through his mind across the entire planet, "From Void comes the Annihilator! It is chaos, destruction, and death. It is the nothingness by which all things fall. Its entropic claws tear into reality, feeding on reality and leaving nothing." Oramar's words spread to warp raiders across the Azrimuth system, down to the lowest lexicographer, "From Matter comes the Anathema! It is order, construction, and life! It is the quanta which forms the universe. Its seething complexity grows patterns of inexorable truth."

Warp Raiders across the system knelt in reverence and scribes scrambled to record every morsel they could through the channeling librarians. In their minds, they saw the conflict of two axiomatic forces. The juxtaposition of flame and void built more and more nuanced constructions, spinning into stars and galaxies. They saw the creation of the universe as reality assertet itself further. "Order earns the early victory," comes the translation from Oramar, "but the Annihilator is a persistent foe, and its touch poisons irrevocably." They see life rise on a trillion worlds, growing into violent monsters and kingdoms of hate. They see explosions of life as empires rise, but inevitably fall. "The Anathema uses its energy to build, weakening itself, but the Annihilator consumes what it destroys, growing stronger. Chaos will always prevail against order, for Chaos is unburdened."

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>>49338714
The audience of a thousand minds roared in outrage at the inevitable doom of all mankind. Oramar did not relent, continuing to translate, "But if the Anathema could be untethered from its burden, it could face Chaos with equal force. The force of order would be able to claim the slow victory of enthalpy. The great war must be fought not on earth, but in the heavens, in storms of thought and warplight." The message ended there, and Oramar's telepathic connection slowly faded. The walls grew dark, and soon lost their transparency. Oramar found himself in a plain white chamber of undecorated wraithbone. Light came from the bone itself, shining evenly over everything. Oramar heard a footstep behind him, and turned. Mu'adh stood on the precipice, holding another of the soul shards in his hand. With his other hand he removed his helmet. His skin was not Mu'adh's swarthy brown, but a deep black. His hair was not Mu'adh's shining gold, but the same light absorbing darkness. His eyes, however, burned. Like orbs of hot iron, they shone into the very core of Oramar's soul. "You..." said Oramar, "No... what have you done to Mu'adh, [[REDACTED]]?"

The man who was not Mu'adh stepped into the white room, and the wraithbone ceased to glow. In the absence of light, the white walls turned to black, and darkness overtook Oramar. A triangular beam of light from the doorway made him into a silouhette, reminding Oramar of the dark effigies he had tied to his sandskiffs in his youth. The Shadow spoke, "I have witnessed this farsight, brother. Like you, I see what it means."

Oramar's shock turned to calculation. "Yes..." said Oramar, and then they spoke in unison, "Our father must die."

>>49338665
>>49338673
>>49338681
>>49338696
>>49338714
>>49338725
Nice. I do wonder... Does the Warmaster want to destroy or defeat Chaos, or is he completely consumed by it?

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This is the legion organisation talked about in the last thread. I agree these legions should stick to the same model mostly, with individual minor variations.

>>49338781
consumed. he wants the Imperium for himself.

>>49338815
It might be relevant to discuss legion sizes.

>>49338849
It might be, but would the numbers ultimately mean anything? What constitutes a legion to be "really big"? 500,000 marines? And is a 10,000 strong legion, "undermanned" or "on the brink of destruction"? These questions are frustratingly unanswerable in my opinion, unless we just arbitrarily make some shit up.

>>49339028
10,000 is smol toward the end of the Great Crusade, but technically full strength, since that's the point where it counts as an actual Legion. I imagine most would consider a Legion of just 10,000 to be impractically small, though.

The Iron Warriors were the largest Legion in canon with 180,000 Marines.

>>49339048
Nah dog. Thousand Sons, they only had 10,000.
It's kind of odd. Originally the Sons had 1000, but with the Heresy books they decided to add a 0 to the legions.

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>>49338849
At the height of the crusade, :

>Most
Oathsworn: 200,000. Lots and lots and lots.

>Least
Iron Hearts, probably like 20,000. They're few but they're tough AF.

>>49338849
>>49339028
>>49339099
>>49339048

Size though isn't the point of the post. As the way the Legions are organised bigger legions just have more upper echelon groupings.

In this image, its chapter.

So the only difference between a legion of 20k and 200k is the amount of Chapters, and how fully manned they are.

The point is to realign the Legions we are making, as each one is more varied than the last - which while good for character - diverges quite heavily (too heavily imo) from the canon. Which is why I was prompted to action from the last thread.

I posted the picture to demonstrate that the OU legions had a similar make up even if the names for their groupings were different.

>>49339157
I agree with you. It's important to have unique and different Legions, but they are still military organisations and some uniformity is important.

>>49339157
I think most of the Legions we have do adhere to the ten chapter (Great Company, Choir, whatever, the name doesn't matter) structure, don't they?

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>>49339157
>>49339174
I don't understand what you're talking about. What is your point?

>diverges quite heavily (too heavily imo) from the canon.
How do you mean? This is an alternate canon, it's divergent in basically every way.

How would you personally realign certain legions? Can you be more specific?

>>49339229
I mean essentially what has been put forward
>>49339222 and >>49339174

Im NOT saying it isn't happening already, what im saying we should investigate to see if people are wildly and/or randomly diverging for no point other than "I want more volkite squads"

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>>49339253
>we should investigate to see if people are wildly and/or randomly diverging for no point other than "I want more volkite squads"

Investigate who? What? Some legions do have more volkite squads.

>>49339294
investigate might have been the wrong word.
What im saying is people should figure out what their organisation is (based off that picture) and then post either the whole thing, or post the changes/variations.

like was said here >>49339174 some of us think its important for it to be coherent and consistent among the legions for the most part.

Welp, Negators are basically

Chapters: Túatha.

Battalions: Battalions.

Companies: Warbands.

The term 'company' is still in use, but describes instead a small grouping of tightly-knit warriors - more an informal term than anything else. As the Great Crusade stretches on and Aodhán, in search of some breathing room, fights way ahead to the edge of the galaxy, the Legion's recruiting and organizations habits become much more relaxed, and we started to see Free Companies forming - essentially just groups of Marines that come together in varying numbers to function as semi-autonomous warrior lodges. This is the beginnings for how the Legion looks in the 41st Millennium, with hundreds, possibly thousands of random Free Companies doing their own thing all over the galaxy, barely keeping in contact with the main body of the Negators.

>>49339314
I agree as well, I think I posted the orbat for the Hawks previously. Ill try and find the image and post it again.

>>49339343
Where do your specialist troops fit in (Venerators was it?) Are they a Chapter level asset, Battalion or warband?

Essentially the higher up the more elite, but more rare and thus fewer.

>>49339381
The availability of specialist troops would depend on the size of the Legion, wouldn't it? Bigger chapters would mean more elites per chapter.

I guessing, since Crusade era chapters can number at over 5,000 Marines (Ultramarines had 250,000 dudes in the latter stages of the Crusade, so each chapter should have had roughly 25,000 able warriors), battalions and companies are also generally pretty big, and you'd see specialists like Venators all the way down to company level.

>>49339430
Uh, alternatively, I guess there could be just more companies in the larger battalions.

It that case Venators are probably a battalion asset. I think as the Legion structure sort of spiraled out of control you start to see more and more of them as Negators start just organizing their warbands and squads however they want.

>>49339430
Well typically the better / more important something is, the higher up its authorisation goes.

What I mean is say, you've got 10 dudes who can individually solo each another 10 dudes. And you have 2 levels of organisation: HQ and Company.

You can either break them up among the 10 companies (1 per company) or you could keep them all together but at HQ (1 grp of 10) and deploy them together for that extra oomph.

I see what you're saying, the idea of more numbers = more elites which is true, but its proportional. If you think of say terminators as the top 1% of a chapter, then it doesn't matter if the chapter is 1000 or 10000, while you might end up with more terminators total they are still spread across the same frontage in terms of ratio.

Am I making sense? Im not sure I am.

My point is, the inverse law of ninjas essentially. The more of something you have, the less awesome each individual can be, after all if they were THAT awesome, you couldn't have that many of them, as they would just be 'average'.

>>49339523
Ahhh.

I'd say it wouldn't be uncommon to see a squad of ten Venators in a warband. Much more common would be Reaver Tactical Squads, which are essentially a bunch of dudes getting super baked and jumping off a Storm Eagle at the enemy.

>>49339572
Yeah so I think what Raydon is getting at is that if they are fairly common, then they aren't necessarily all that "elite". As rather than excessive skill is required its more balls of steel and/or sufficient drugs.

Like those warboys out of Mad Max.

>>49339587
Yeah pretty much. Reavers are not super skilled, they're good at what they do because they're motherfucking Mehreens and Mehreens are good, but what differentiates them are huge nuts and special drugs.

Venators tend to be pretty damn skilled, or at least highly practiced, with their guns. There are more of them later on not because suddenly more skilled Marines appear, but because, due to organization going a little bit nuts, more Marines just focus on doing that to the detriment of other things.

>>49339616
I guess it should be noted that the specific drugs Reavers use are not waaagghhhh berserker drugs, at least not at the time of the Great Crusade. Later on, they have access to Deldar combat drugs, but at the time of the Crusade and the Heresy they're using something found on Aodhán's homeworld.

Rather than doing the berserker thing, it boosts their reflexes to precognitive levels, increases focus, and affords greater control over one's own musculature at the cost of being pretty damn taxing on the body/brain.

>>49339616
So later on, its not that they are veterans its that less people spend time being devastators/assaults/boarders etc and just move into that stream of profession?

Yeah?

>>49339679
Pretty much. Mechanically, they'd probably have an upgrade to represent true veteran Venators.

Oh by the by Raydon, how would you feel about Aodhan and Raydon proposing a new Storm Eagle pattern to Marcus? 10 Marine transport capacity, not as much gun as the Fire Raptor, but more than the Eagle?

>>49339880
Ah not Raydon, but I like the idea?

>>49339880
Well I don't see why not. I mean, its a role currently filled by the Stormraven(?) but I do think the Stormraven is ugly so sure.

So more troop room but also more weapons? I'd be a hard project for sure.

>>49340066
IIRC the Stormraven STC wasn't discovered until the late 41st Millennium. And yes, it is ugly as hell.

It'd be pretty funny to have these guys go through all the trouble of designing this... let's call it a Fire Eagle for now... and then a few hundred years after the Heresy someone in the East discovers the Stormraven STC.

>>49340102
>Spend decades getting fire eagles up and running, millions of man hours, billions of imperial credits, hundreds of lives lost in testing.
>few hundred years later Stormraven STC is found
>looks ugly as fuck
>Iregretnothing.jpg

>>49339888
Thanks bruh.

>>49340066
I was thinking less guns than the Fire Raptor, but more guns than the Storm Eagle. Transport capacity of ten (ten more than the Fire Raptor's capacity of zero, ten less than the Storm Eagle's capacity of twenty). A compromise between the two meant to deliver small, hard-hitting teams while putting down a hail of covering fire.

Maybe its side guns would be much smaller weapons that don't require as large munitions? Heavy bolters instead of autocannons? Hurricane bolters? I'm pretty sure assault cannons take up way less room than either.

>>49340124
>2nd Crusade
>Raydon and Aodhan do battle
>plasma sparks fly and the earth shakes as their weapons meet
>they lock blades, each seeking an opening in the other's stance
>none are close enough to hear, but those Astartes to bear witness swear that words are traded between the two
>"Now, I know we have our differences and we've both made mistakes, but we agree that the Fire Eagle was still a good idea, right?"

>>49340160
STORM EAGLES CAN TAKE 20?

Thought it was 10. Fair dinkem, in that case yes. Yes indeed.

That is exactly what the Hawks would use by default, entirely removing Storm Eagles.

How about:
> Avenger Bolt Cannon
> Rocket Pods under the wing (or several missiles)
> 10 Man Transport capacity.
> Possibly (?) a manned independent turret on top, with either twin linked assault cannons OR a Storm Eagle eqv rocket pods pair.

So its less than the Fire Raptor, which also has the 2 twin linked autocannons.

OR Maybe just make it smaller... FASTER, or add heavier weapons. Lascannons, bigger more explody missiles.

>>49340217
>"For your treason ill never forgive you... for the Fire Eagle... ill never forget you"

>>49340235
>>49340217
Okay okay.

>Avenger Bolt Cannon
>Rocket Pods (can upgrade to Lascannons for X) under each wing
> 2x front facing twinlinked autocannons
OR
> Missile Launchers on top ala Storm Eagle.

>less firepower than fire raptor in the loss of its 2 independent turrets
>more firepower than storm eagle in gaining avenger bolt cannon.

I think it would look cooler with 2x twin autocannons ala the Thunderbolt.

>>49339099
Oathsworn had a shot ton dude. Like I think thwy were mentioned as having 500,000 between their primarch being a bio-god, super acceptance rate with implants, and just good old non-attrition tactics. Hell, even then he had a shit ton in secret on Luna no one new about waiting for the Warmaster to start some shit.

>>49340479
500,000 is a literal fuckton.
That's double the Ultramarines.

Do you mind compiling stuff into a wiki page? I'd like to read more about the Oathsworn, but there's no convenient way to do so.

>>49340479
>>49340680
I'd also like to add that Roboute was hailed as a logistical genius for having such a massive legion run smoothly.

>>49340705
IIRC 500,000 was an estimate off their maximum, mostly because they of the aforementioned acceptance rates of implants, and being gene-specialists.

Its also why the Warmaster calls them out as traitors and has loyalists attack them (to thin out both sides).

In modern times however they are tiny, having never been able to recoup their losses particularly well due to losing Luna.

>>49340786
It's just that a 500,000 big legion does neem seem 'realistically' possible.
Maybe in terms of acceptance and gene-seed, but nog logistically.

>>49340809
Its something we have never really discussed. I think you're right though. Gorrillaman was a loggy god and he never had to handle something like that. Faustus is by all accounts devoted purely to his gene study so if we are going to keep that as an upward projection, we should definitely make the downsides more apparent.

>>49340823
It would be a right mess. Either deployments would run very slowly and ineffeciently, or the Legion would have to split into loads of bureaucracy and layers of command, or the legion would have to be split into one two or more semi-autonomous forces.

>>49340809
Part of it is that the Oathsworn are disorganized. They just keep making more and Faustus doesn't particularly keep an eye on anything. Heck, at that scale there probably have been more than a few renegade war bands. When people tell Faustus to get his sons in order, he usually responds with something about his research.
I think that adds some decent plausibility that the Oathsworn are going rogue.

>>49339314
>>49339294
>>49339222
It's been put up in more detail elsewhere, but I'd been thinking that Xun reorganized the legion pretty heavily.
Things are now base 20, with notional 20 man squads for rleverything, which can be broken down into two 10 man groups or 4 5 man groups. As many transports as possible. Even when broken down into combat squads, the segments are meant to support eachother.
There's 20 squads in a company and 13 companies in a Tzolkin chapter.
(It's based off Mayan calendrics.)
The composition varies pretty heavily depending on the Tzolkin, but ideally every Tzolkin can do everything, but have some sort of specialty that need not be unique in the legion.
Xun is a big fan of having diverse parts that synergize and if there is anything that he is the best at among the primarchs, it's logistics.

Anyways, he tries to ensure that everyone has a transport, though in practice, it may be 6 squads sharing a stormbird.
Reason for this is because he's always trying to out flank and disorganize his opponent, achieve a local superiority, and then keep up the pressure, which he does through speed, mobility, and infiltration.

That's why he loves Volkites, they're great when you hop out of your rhino and are outnumbered, you thin the enemy ranks, keep them at bay until the landraider or stormeagle with a Despoiler squad comes in. The Sky Serpents are very aggressive, in your face fighters, with ranged artillery serving only to cover the advance shoot and scoot style or to take out a critical target via orbital Lance strike or the like.

>>49340823
I think the reason he could do it was because all the fleets either had to handle themselves or were attached to other legions. Another big thing mentioned was that yo the wider Imperium, they WERE the Legiiones Astartes. So many of them were present, and their skills in medicine so valuable diplomatically, they probably were present on a shit ton of the smaller non-war fleets. Just like their apothecary detachments, they just had so many to spare it wasn't an issue.

Joe Schmoe would find out about the Imperium, and this giant of a war god not only appears carrying the Imperial standard, saying he is one of legion who will protect or crush you depending on your choices, but also cures thousands of plagues and saves your daughters life with the knowledge he brings. All you have to do is pay taxes, accept the truth, join the Emperor in helping even more people, and give some of your best sons to the legion. And hell, given how good their gene stuff was, those sons probably were accepted. This way every world would think of them first, their legion grows exponentially.

A pretty good argument for the Warmaster, whp notes how many worlds revere (true or not) the Oarhsworn and their massive numbers. Hell, when the censoring began a number of worlds with closer ties might even have rebelled to protect the oathsworn, possibly pushed along by the warmaster's agents. In the end, this only cements the warmaster's case. They're the balanced legion who are too well liked and too big, even if Faustus is a lonely gene autist on Luna

>>49340235
>>49340314
>somewhere, deep beneath the catacombs of Ryza, there lies an ancient Fire Eagle, its every surface heaped with dust
>few would ever wake such a relic, let alone step inside, or swipe the dust aside to note the 01 emblazoned upon its side - the first of its kind
>fewer still would know to look under the left wing, to find the line of text scratched into the ceramite in Low Gothic
>"Three brave men, friends forever, were once here."
>"If you wish to know their names, they are Marcus, Aodhán, and Raydon."

Also, dat sounds good. Maybe different patterns would switch between the missile launchers and the autocannons? Thoth Pattern, Horus pattern?

>>49340479
>>49340680
I personally think they should have 300,000 Astartes in the line of duty, working under several high commanders to take the strain of lordship off Faustus. Then there are his other projects hidden away in secret places - Thunder Warrior replicas, etc.

>>49341060
The Oathsworn are an Apothecary Legion? This is new to me.
That's why I'd really like it if their wiki page was made/updated.

>>49341059
>transports for all + unique organisation
I like that youre trying to do something unique...
but I foresee a bit of a problem here.
In order to allow a force to work in groups of 20 divided into 2x10 or 4x5 that would mean that each group of 20 would have 2xr rhinos AND 4 x razorbacks. or just 4x rhinos I guess.

When you start putting birds in the air
>1 stormbird per 60
you only add to the complexity. Because of those 60 dudes you now have
12 unused rhinos/razorbacks sitting somewhere gathering dust. ya dig?

Like you gotta realise that no matter how you slice the cake that's a lot of stuff you are having built, and then not using. I mean, it goes the next step too.
niggas gotta be trained on them
they gotta stay fuelled up
they gotta get transported around with everything
they gotta be inspected and maintained
they gotta have weapons made for them and dem dare weapons gotta have ammunitions.

Assuming a finite supply of anything(!) used in the production, then that's stuff you are STEALING from someone else who needs it. Ya dig?

Like, don't be selfish. niggas dying out there man.

>>49341060
I think that could also lead them into an Astral Claws situation where they hold back on tithes for local projects. They lose sight of the imperium, which also doesn't help their case.

>>49341059
This also means that there are some specialist companies in many Tzolkin, things that don't really seem Sky Serpent-ish, like artillery forces, but the idea is to have dudes who focus on it on hand as opposed to giving every company a few whirlwinds.
A demi-Tzolkin may share the same cruiser, but organizationally, Xun is giving the specialists bigger support cadres.

>>49341194
Whoops, misunderstanding. I meant that 6 squads would share a Stormbird and have no rhinos. I figured that 1 rhino for every 10 marines was unreasonable, so I was trying to have them share a ride. The idea was that every marine in a combat zone has a transport they can use, and assigned transport. So basically, no footslogging. Ideally anyways. But sometimes it still happens because there aren't enough vehicles for everyone to ride around in.

>>49341193
Nigga what? That's always been their thing. That's like their core thing, before being xbox huge in numbers and gettingg fucked up in the heresy so hard in makes the Lamenters feel pity

>>49341370
I've only been around for two threads and, again, they don't have a wiki page.

I feel like posting the Scions timeline again to make sure it isn't contradicted by newer stuff. I should probably also put something in about the Ash Bearers, but they resurface outside of the Vigil and I'm not sure very many people know their origins.

>>49341797
Whoops.
http://pastebin.com/Fc5gbfv6

File: Legiones Reavers.jpg (407KB, 1164x1256px) Image search: [Google]

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Remember, kids:

Winners don't do drugs. oh wait lol we totally won, do drugs

So, your standard Negators warband will look something like this:

1st Paragon -- Tactical Squad -- Tactical Squad -- Venator Team

2nd Paragon -- Tactical Squad -- Reaver Tactical Squad -- Assault Squad

3rd Paragon -- Tactical Squad -- Reaver Tactical Squad -- Devastator Squad

Then you've got transports, gunships, etc. Negators will typically use flyer transport because they like to redeploy quickly.

Question: What does your faction think of the legend of the Tyrant Star? Do they see it as anything more than ramblings of the madmen?

>>49344534
I'm entirely sure that the Scions could not give less of a shit about some minor offshoot of the traitors on the far side of Dark Imperial space. They have bigger fish to fry, like the black crusades and the occasional Eldar invasion.

The Ash Bearers, on the other hand, believe that Komus is a rival to Nyadra'zatha and seek the star's destruction. There can be only one true Eternal Sovereign, and the throne has been claimed by the Burning One.

>>49344534
black hole sun, won't you come...>>49344780

>>49345276
Stuttering, cold and damp
Steal the warm wind tired friend
Times are gone for honest men
And sometimes far too long for snakes

>>49344780
Quite interesting. They would quickly become sworn enemies, as Black Suns would defend their territory and secrets no matter the cost.
>>49345276
It shall. It is foretold. Yet it only comes when the Herald returns. Until then, it wanders, visits some, and prepares those it shines upon for the new age where all have been returned.

Well, it seems to be time to bump the thread. Might as well post some more Calixian legend that may or may not interest you but most certainly affects the Black Suns.

The Seven Devils of Dread Calyx.
Beings of dark power, the devils haunt the Calixis sector, some as savage predatory beasts, some walking amidst the cold stars and others worshipped as fickle gods by those who fell inside their domains.
It is said that the devils are connected by threads of fate, and if all were brought forth at once, a key would be turned that would extinguish the stars themselves.

>>49347005
The devils are known only by vaguely descriptive names, but the following list has entities and/or descriptions of what beings are suspected to be the devils in the 40kverse, Asunderverse may have entirely different beings or even modified legends.
>The Voice of the Flame
Suspected to be the Daemon Balphomael, lord of the dark fire.
>The Dweller in the Depths
The sightless gaze, autochthonic entity, nature unknown.
The False Prince
Tychak Crowfather, spiteful, indigenous deity of the Ashleen.
>The Treader in the Dust
Radiant King, legendary avatar of madness.
>The Eater of the Dead
Mord'dagan, supernatural beast of legend, godhead of the Saynay cannibal cult
>The Empty Hunger
Astral entity/aetheric residue of extinct xenoform, attributed cause of lethal psychic phenomena.
The Night Traveller
Nature unknown. Also known as the kin-slayer, one that returns from where none has before and whose predicted coming will herald the End of Days.

File: Burning One.png (2MB, 791x1152px) Image search: [Google]

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>>49345971
It was upon the world of Cornell V that the Ash Bearers first spread the flames of the Burning One to the Calixis Sector, and it was there that they first encountered the Black Suns warband. A night world, Cornell V was seen by the Ash Bearers as a world deserving of the eternal light of Nyadra'zatha. Knowing that the world was home to an enclave of the Black Suns warband, the leader of the Ash Bearers expedition, Apocryphus, sent a missionary squad to convert the Black Suns. When they returned at half strength, reporting of dark sorceries and supernatural shadows, Apocryphus decided that the Black Suns would be exterminated.

>>49341301
>>49341194

This is why people should just stick to the normal diagram. Or make minor alterations.

You can easily keep the same formation with this gimmicky 20 of 20 idea. You literally just hapf the amount of squads.

Like just try to draw out your idea as a diagram and youll see how rediculous this will turn out.>>49341464

I dont know if anyone saved their info.

>>49347358
After the burning of their holdings on Cornell V, the Black Suns began moving their artefacts and written knowledge to Scintilla from their remaining holdings, and prepared defence of their territory: They placed fleets above largely colonized worlds and regiments of Traitor Guard were assigned to nearly every habitable world, while they placed satellites above dead and abandoned worlds: They intended to strike back whenever and wherever their chosen territory was threatened. Theirs was the plan of attrition, of weathering the storm until the attackers would move on.
Yet the damage was already done: What files the Ash Bearers could salvage from the burning libraries of Cornell V spoke of Komus, the last star. Knowledge of the star that had thus far been kept secret, including theories of the truth behind it. Theories that would only fuel the burning hatred the Ash Bearers had begun to harbour.

>>49345276
Im gonna try and make up an Orbat for the sky serpents if its cool with you.
Ill post it when done and you can add in things ive forgotten, move around things ive misplaced etc.

>>49348201
Go crazy with it. But I do have to ask, a what? I know it's a typo, but a what?

Am i the only one who doesn't think force org charts are interesting at all?

>>49348298
No.

>>49348298
They're not massively interesting.

I guess it's good to think about how your Legion is set up, what things are common on company/battalion/chapter level, etc.

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>>49348225
An order of battle (OrBat)

Like this

>>49349094
What is this, a legion for ants?

>>49348298
I for one find them very interesting. But its part of my job so i have a strong bias.

But on another level, its structure and coherency which i find important in writing fictions. Its one of the reasons i like magic systems like brandon sandersons over say jk rowlings.

>>49349113
It was just the first image on google! Stop judging meeeeee

>>49349148
Hey, I'm not Enoch.

>>49349133
My problem is that, like that anon said, they're all essentially the same thing with the names changed, so there's not much to actually discuss.

>>49348298
It's fine, but ultimately not really something I think is important beyond taking into account for doing other stuff. For the majority of legions it's not something to riff on or modify.

>>49335648
You guys have been at this for months and you still have that stupid REDACTED Warmaster. Why was someone that no one knows or trusts and manipulates from the shadows the Warmaster? How the hell is someone with zero presence or recognition capable of maintaining the attention or respect of the Chaos Gods and the Legions of the Lost and the Damned?

>>49349180
Except as that other anon said. I dont think they are, they should be, but using the serpents as an example - i think some people have (perhaps inadvertently) diverged quite heavily.

>>49349374
He has more presence than anyone. Everyone knows who he is and what he does. They just don't know who exactly he is and where he is.

Also, I assume before the Heresy everyone knows his face and name. Only post-Heresy does he write his name out of everything.

He's an omnipresent faceless entity.

>>49349374
Youre missing the point. He has a name. Its just that he also removes any trace of information that he doesnt approve it.

He has all those things - and has the ability to control almost all information.

>>49349432
>>49349440
Okay they know who he is. They also know he's an overly secretive paranoid machiavellian mofo. Why is he Warmaster.

>>49349601
He wasn't quite that before.

And because he was always the smartest and most strategically minded Primarch. He's also really good at making people like him and the Imperium. He's a spymaster, strategist, and propagandist.

>>49349172
Fucking burn son. Made me smile.

>>49349688
He's a Mary Sue

>>49349798
I mean, he's the Warmaster, so yeah.

Why would the Emperor put a jumped up hive ganger who had his whole legion dress in spikes as the Warmaster?

>>49349601
"All warfare is based on deception."
t. someone I really shouldn't have to name

>>49349828
Because he was charismatic, straigthfoward, a leader and trustworthy. Someone all but the bitterest of his brothers could grow to like

REDACTED is reclusive, manipulative, a spymaster, and never shows his face anymore. Someone none of his brothers really trusted or knew well.

>>49349798
He's a power hungry asshole who sold the galaxy to Chaos because he needed to be in control of everything. You might as well say Stalin was a Mary Sue, since he came to power through similar means (sabotage, deception, information warfare, character assassination, etc).

>>49349904
>implying nobody trusted him or that he didn't keep up a facade of being friendly with many of his brothers

Kek, are you just making stuff up now?

The only Primarch I've seen noted to not trust him is Aodhan, and that's because the Warmaster seemed too loyal to the Emperor.

Also, if the Emperor always picked the nicest of his sons, he'd have chosen Sanguinius or Vulkan in the original canon. Horus was a fucking dickhead in comparison to those two. He chose Horus because he got shit done.

>>49349958
Stalin isn't a character in a story.

>>49349601
Because having the master of military intelligence and propaganda be in charge of military intelligence and propaganda is a pretty good idea.

>>49350056
Actually, in his defense, Horus was actually chosen because he was ultimately the only one who everyone at least respected. Everyone else had beef with someone else for some reason. Sanguinius and Vulkan were both mutants, and so couldn't be figureheads.

>>49349904
We barely know anything about the Warmaster before the Heresy, but he was most certainly not reclusive. He was just as active int the Crusade as all of his brother. He never shows his face anymore because he runs a 1984-esque Chaos Empire.

>>49350113
He hid is face from the Imperium before the Heresy, the power of being nameless & faceless is something he discovers early, but he shows his face in private to his commanders and to his brother primarchs.

All of the primarchs have direct personal relationships with him, and most of them trust him or at least respect him. Some of them even idolize him.

>>49341822
Bump

>>49350061
He can be? Is Stalin a Mary Sue if you put him in a story?

You seem to have changed your tune, and are now implying that, what, characters like this are too realistic for fiction?

By the way,even the shrouded identity thing fits Stalin. People used to call him the grey blur because he was so forgettable.

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>MFW someone doesn't like literally the coolest idea in the entire setting

>>49350056
Faustus fucking hated the dude and was only loyalist to spite the mother fucker.

>>49350609

The Warmaster is a big issue though. He has no presence. He's made the Warmaster, but there's nothing to show why. He supposedly influences everything, but again, we never see. That's the problem with turning the Warmaster into 'Ulta-Mary-Sue-Alpharius-9001'. He is a plot device, not a character. He could be literally written out and nothing would be affected. Horus had a presence. He shaped events, he was an actual character. This Warmaster is not. This Warmaster is a blank slate that does nothing and adds nothing and exists purely to move the plot forward to the end of the Heresy, and then vanishes forever.

>>49350691
>He has no presence.
This is patently untrue and reveals a fundamental misunderstanding. He has far MORE presence than any of the other primarchs. Every guardsman, every factory worker, everyone everywhere is exposed to propaganda about the Warmaster. Every Imperial citizen knows who he is.

They just don't know his name.

>>49350834
He means actual presence in the story, and I'd argue he's at least a little right about that.

Horus has tons of stuff describing his fall and interactions with eveyone. The Warmaster has a lot less of that here, and dearly needs it.

>>49350853
>Heir Apparent on Terra
>Raised by Malcador
>Conquest of Luna
>Manages all the Legions before primarchs are found
>Conquest of Ullanor
>Masterminds the fall of Faustus
>Istvaan but cooler
>literally kills the fucking Emperor

BUT HE NEVER DOOOOOES ANYTHING!

>>49350691
I think your view is overly negative, but I do agree with you on some level.
We should definitely decide on more concrete details on the Warmaster.
Characters in the setting may not know who he is or what he does, but that doesn't mean WE shouldn't either.

>>49350906
>more concrete details on the Warmaster.
We know

>What he looks like
>What he acts like
>What his subordinates act like
>His style of leadership
>his major accomplishments
>his favorite color

What more do you want?

>>49350853
This I can agree with.

We've been working on the circumstances of his fall but it's not fully fleshed out yet. The same goes for his big victory at Ullanor where he gets Warmastered up.

>>49350884
But what does actually do in any of those situations? Besides plan so hard he wins.

>>49350977
I don't understand the question? What does Horus do in similar situations except fight so hard he wins? You're just being reductive.

>>49350949
I mean something like >>49350952

>>49349798
Yes. He is as much a plot device as Klaus is.>>49350691 yes. Plot device.

>>49350952
I tried to bring up Ullanor a few threads back and nobody cared enough to comment on it. Other topics were more interesting at the time to our writefags, so they wrote about those topics. There's nobody in charge here, and we'd like to keep it that way. People write about whatever they feel like writing about.

It's important to remember that things only get fleshed out if someone literally sits down and fleshes them out. We only know what happens on Ullanor once someone in the thread says "hey what if this is what happens at Ullanor."

Bumperino

>>49351011
>>49351025
>>49351066
I think the question is why suck a secretive and presumably in charismatic person becomes Warmaster in the first place, as well as how his legion actually fights besides PARANOIA MAKES YOUR HEAD ASPLODE.
So what do we know:
The Warmaster is fucking brilliant

The Warmaster is a master of propaganda and morale
>it may be that the Warmaster is actually very charismatic, he just is one of those guys who sits and listens and you just can't help but open up to him and then you realize you've been talking for hours and he's notactually told you anything substantiative about himself.--he's a very good listener and really gets how people work

He has a big influence on Xun
>I think Xun comes across as too canny to be taken in the way Enoch is, rather Xun and the Warmaster share notes on ways to be sneaky. Further, I might infer that the Warmaster has a whole set of philosophical views about how to make the citizenry of the Imperium happy. Post heresy, he implements this via "terrasoc", but in the darkest way possible. Whatever he believed, I'd propose, ranging true for the Confucian brother.

>I'm reminded of that delta green credo:
Deception is a right
Truth is a privilege
Innocence is a luxury

If Xun comes away with that as his guide, then the Warmaster might well share something similar, but go 1984 with it by fabricating the social pressures to bring unity and subservience by generating a simulacrum of war. More on this one to follow.

The Eyes send in infiltrators and saboteurs, Section 8 is modeled off them.
They have subverter cardres.
>So we've got the badass, but what do they do when they meet a xeno that can't be infiltrated? Like at Ullanor, what is the Warmaster's style when he just needs to kill everything as fast as possible.

>>49353173
could be that he uses decapitation strategies along with embedded Auxilia, which has a nice resonance with the Ultras and is indeed something the Sky Serpents do and perhaps comes as a result of contact and collaboration, but we need more. What if the Eyes do the Carcharodon style observe from the shadows and then strike with overwhelming force.

They would differ from their ophidian brethren in a few ways
>Sky Serpents may sneak into a warzone, but once the trap is sprung, it's an Armored assault that's hard to miss (even if it's a feint. With the Sky Serpents there's always a hand that you see.)

>The Eyes remain hidden until it's time to strike, appear from nowhere, kill everything, and then vanish.

>The Serpents have a red thirst that comes out in a melee, the Eyes are cold and calculated in it. If he is splattered in gore, it's because he decided it would demoralize his foes.

>The Eyes might make heavy use of Jump Packs to break the enemy line, to strike and then vanish.

So basically, they'd be like a heavier, evil raven Guard, or Night Lords without the erections.

The big difference between them and the Void Lords is that the Void Lords make use of dread in addition to stealth. Equally, the Void Lords use terror as their primary weapon. Void Lords are the ones who broadcast screams and the like. The Eyes are more invested in specifically paranoia. It's the difference between the Talons of Xibalba and Chamber 101.
Also the Void Lords are all about those totem animals.

>>49353409
>the Eyes are eerily similar to what I wanted the pre-interment Scions to be
Fuckin' Warmaster.

>>49353173
So to pick up the idea of the Warmaster and politics, I think the Warmaster's idea, starting off, anyways, since he's got to convince the Emperor, is that politics is theatre in its purest sense. You create the scene and the people will act out the script. During the crusade, it's very much a heroic narrative that the Emperor and the Warmaster March beside you. He's got an idea that the easiest way to motivate people is to control the information they get so that they'll decide to do what you want them to do.
This starts off fairly benign, shielding people from horrors, making them feel safe, giving them a place in the new Imperium, but the Warmaster decides it's easier to rule through terror.
Better to be feared than loved, but better yet is to make people love you through fear. That's why the Warmaster runs the dark imperium the way he does. He's setting it up so people feel they owe everything to his direct benevolence.

So the big change in his Demeanour is that he decides inspiring people makes them too tricky to control and that real fear is too dangerous, so it's easier to just invent enemies and then defeat them so you can keep everyone under control. Cut out the middleman, if you will.

>>49353173
>xun and warmaster share notes
I think it works better thematically for the warmaster to he subtly arrogant, superior. He wouldnt share notes as much as nod along with xun telling him about his newest idea. Not sharing his own improvements on the idea, or the fact he already has implemented a similiar idea. Kind of thing?

As for fighting style id be typical spess marines. Assault, dev, and tacticals.

>>49353409
I honestly dont think their tactical doctrine needs to be tied so closely to the warmasters plotting and such. Those are HIS characteristics, the legion itself is fairly normal, it just uses auilliary spies and such - something noone else really does (until xun copies him)

This way they dont need to crossover into void lord territory.

>>49353605
Again i think the easiest way to sell "why is a propaganda guy warmaster" is 3 simple facts.
1. It works well. He can conquer thru conversion faster and easier than his brothers can through combat.
2. He is respected by his brothers who would be his immediate subordinates. I dont know anyone else who is universally liked.

3. His politicing is an extension of his brilliance. He is gorrilla man + alpharius + lion. He simply has a strategic mind noone else can equal.

At that point, why wouldnt you want him as Warmaster and if not him then who is as qualified?

>>49354008
I agree with this post re: tactics. The Eyes should be largely vanilla tactically except for their infiltrators. In terms of structure, doctrine, tactics, etc, they should be the ideal template of a standard legion.

>>49354134
So sable-clad generalists who get weird behind closed doors.
...sounds familiar, actually.

So then during the heresy, we'd expect them to deploy end masse. We should probably throw in some of their battles. And then they keep their sable ranks following the heresy?

So I was sniffing around the old threads a bit and stumbled on shit that was posted while I was asleep or some shit I dunno anyway THIS
>I imagine that Enoch is sort of granite-skinned, the creases across his brow looking like the cracks on mortar. Everything about him looks weathered and rugged, and his self-loathing and hate constantly seeps through the cracks that mark his skin and armour, manifesting as a ceaseless torrent of boiling pitch.
and
>Hmm. Now I'm thinking of a man of stone and clay, crumbling and cracking with each step and blood like magma or mud that floods out and heals the cracks only for them to form anew.

posted by vanth and raydonanon is fucking rad and I consider as canon as something can be in this little collaborative shindig. I also envision something like cracked nightmare headstones in Bloodborne, if you know them. I'll bang out the details and throw it up on the wiki sometime.

At great risk of sounding like I'm patting myself on the back I'd also like to humbly thank the anon that said he really liked Enoch. It was such a minor compliment to get worked up on but it felt good. I think what really helped me with Enoch initially is that I actually based him loosely on my myself, though the cause and effect of his vulnerabilities are different.

Just a thought about Gengrat and the Mechanicum, I think they have a very messy relationship during the heresy. The hands on approach the Behemoth Guard takes alienates hardliners in the Mechanicum, since the Behemoth Guard has minimal respect for the machine canon.
At the same time, they do partake in certain rites. They certainly bond with the Scorpion Prophet of Xana II, and I think there might be a contemplative sect that is influenced by the Mezoan cult. Heck, maybe Mezoa declares for the Warmaster on the basis of their relationship with the Behemoth Guard.

Anyways, I think during the heresy, they (along with maybe the Oathsworn and Sky Serpents and late in the game the Scions?) form a rallying point for forges that want to distance themselves from Martian control.

I suppose you might say that the mainstream goes for Sinistrum, the Koriel Zeth types go for Xun and Faustus, and the Krom sorts go in for Behemoth Guard.
Not precisely because the Behemoth Guard is sinister in mien, but because of the Behemoth Guard partaking in a dimension of mystery in the machine cult.
If you pressed them for it, they'd probably talk about the great spirit of the machine, the animating force behind the great beast of iron. They see machine canon as shackling the spirit, which is, in part, what leads to daemon engines.

In contrast, I think Sinistrum buys in to the more progressive strains of the cult. He innovates, but I think he has major reverence for Holy Mars.

I think Faustus is an atheist, while Xun accepts the mystical aspects and fully supports the Koriel Zeth style human machine sythesis, but also wants to understand what's going on from first principles.

I'm thinking the Behemoth Guard's odd bent for Mystery and Spirit also sets them up for Tzneetch.


>>49341161
>3 brave men, friends forever

Right in the feels.

Is it wrong that I want to make an egyptian successor chapter/tzolkin called the Sons of Horus?

>>49355142
I suppose you might say that their materialism is motivated by theological concerns in the Cult Mechanicum.

Sinistrum has an orderly hierarchy with revelation through those channels.

Xun has a working concept of revelation through reason, but it's pragmatism that he's applying universally, he's playing 30,000 years of catch-up.

Faustus denies the ghost in the machine.

The Behemoth Guard believe that revelation is universal and perpetual. They live in the machine spirit and it guides their hand as they ride the red road across the stars. It's what makes the heart of the beast beat. It is tangible in electricity. That's why Gengrat has such a presence and why he hears the voices, he's full of the spirit.
I imagine a quintessentially Behemoth Guard thing during the crusade would be a librarian with a cortex controller and servo-harness with his hands raised in the orans position, lighting arcing from his fingertips as he heals a wounded automaton.

>>49355212
Doing up your Orbat now, what are the Serpent honour guard called again?

>>49355212
Also hows the 20 20 13 system work again?

I know the numbers are important but cant remember which order / where they apply.

>>49355240
Oh bugger. The tetrarch equivalents?
Could be something like the 8 dragons.
I'm thinking in terms of ancient Chinese elemental systems... could be called the Bagua.

Mesoamerican could be the Circle of Tlaloc. Haab? Baktun?

Jade Circle. I like that. Works for both.

>>49355240
>>49355323
I too would like to know what his honor guard would be called because I'm rewriting the Eulodius vs Engerand story as Eulodius vs a Sky Serpent dude

>>49355348
Go for Jade Circle. But you do realize that it's basically going to be the two of them staring at each other until someone makes the first move. The red thirst only comes out in the heat of battle and the legion champions are guys who have it under control.
It's Azkellon, not Nassir Amit.

>>49355284
13 squads of 20 in a company. One of those squads of 20 is a command squad, so it's kind of like 12 and 1. There's 20 companies in a Tzolkin chapter. It's based off Mayan calendrics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzolk%27in
Ideally the Companies run Imix through Ahau, with Ahau being the equivalent of the 1st company elite. (Ahau means lord. If I'm not mistaken, it's the completion indicator.)
This gives us 5200 marines in a Tzolkin.

Usually they worked as a pair of demi Tzolkin. Vehicles are distributed at the company level and >>49341301 kinda describes how transports are done. Everyone should have something to ride in, but sometimes squads share.

Xun tends to have specialized companies, with the idea that it centralizes expertise and resources, more efficient that way. He then can parcel it out in operations, but it simplifies the logistics, which is his big specialty.

>>49355447
I wasn't even considering the Red Thirst angle as I assumed it was a secret just like in the OU.


the basic outline is
>Duel starts
>Eulodius counters every blow perfectly
>Other guy (I need a sick name too) keeps trying new things
>Eulodius counters every blow perfectly
>Xun asks Alexios wtf
>Alexios motions to one of the Eyes of the Warmaster
>he produces a book which is literally a catalogue of every move this particular sky serpent has been observed to use in battle
>Xun reels at the extreme broadness of the Warmaster's spy efforts
>Xun makes his comment about facing an unknown
>says something to his man in Parseltongue or whatever
>Sky Serpent dude tries new shit and wins
>Alexios gets pissed and storms off

>>49355284
>>49355447
Oh, and he has stuff worked out for higher level organization, management positions for 20 Tzolkin. He's trying to keep the legion self-similar and have a clear chain of command with the idea that at each higher level in the hierarchy you can be further abstracted and what really wins wars is being organized while still letting your subordinates make decisions on the ground. If you ensure your supply chain runs better than your enemies and have better cohesion and intelligence, then you should win.
As a result, the Sky Serpents try to disrupt that for their enemies, but the behind the scenes logisticians and organization astartes are equally critical. They use Astartes for this because Astartes are smarter than humans, though they do have large human support staffs, since you really want astartes in a position to wreck face when convenient.

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>>49335648
I think the second sons would look much better with either grey or green shoulders and grey trim.

Also, a paler green maybe?

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>>49355323
Okay.

This is going to be largely wrong no doubt, but no way to correct it without posting.

Also forgive the presentation, its just a concept work to post.

>>49355447
REEEE

I did 20 squads of 20, not 13. Noted.

When possible check out>>49355537
and confirm supporting asset distributions.

>>49355503
I love it. That's fantastic on so many levels, in particular the way you worked in the Warmaster.
When in the Crusade are you thinking this happens?

As for Sky Serpent champion names...
Yuejian, the White Tiger of the West
Tai Feng, the Rising Wind Blade


Oh gods... I'm trying to remember the name of a Tang Dynasty literary figure... oh gods... he's got some crazy name and he's known as the Road Tiger General or something. He goes to a tournament to fight a bandit leader and introduces his lineage, which includes such names as The Window Watching Tiger, and The Iron Door Tiger.

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>>49355552
Attempt 2.
working from the ground up.

>>49355503
I like this a lot.
>Parseltongue
heh

>>49355587
>When in the Crusade are you thinking this happens?
From the header of my draft:
>+++ Date 3.998.002.M31 +++

Post Nikaea, Pre Heresy.

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>>49355587
Okay this works as a fully independent war effort having the seven components required.

Do the companies have interstellar independence? Ie: are they assigned to fly off to a nearby planet and do things totally independent, and if they are: do they take their OWN ships, or are they GIVEN ships to allow them to go to the place and do the things.

If not thats fine too, thats inline with OU legion capabilities.

>>49355716
I'd been imagining that the Tzolkin have interstellar capability. I'm thinking dedicated star ships would make things more efficient since they can just go, as opposed to having to wait for the assigned ships to show up. That and more ships means more mobility which means more prongs on the assault which disrupts enemy cohesion and keeps them off balance.

>>49355785
So what im doing (correct me when im wrong)

Tzolkin (chapters) are made up of Cadres
Cadres (battalions) are made up of Companies
Companies are made up of Squads.

So

>>49355716
>If not thats fine too, thats inline with OU legion capabilities.
Many Crusade era chapters or great companies served autonomously, fighting in their own distinct theatres. Very rarely was an entire legion required to be in a single place.

>>49355716
>>49355785
What's the commander of a Tzolkin called?

>>49355837
Close (and I'm going to bed after this)
Squad, company, tzolkin
Not sure where you're getting Cadre from.


>>49355865
I... huh... Ahau? Wang? Tzolkin Master?

>>49355876
I think Master's good enough.

>>49355843
100%

There has been some discrepancy (shock horror) about the numbers in a "chapter" - some sources say they were groups of 1000 marines as per 40k however others say they included 2+ battalions, each battalion being 1000 man strong.

Which means they could be anywhere between 1000 to maybe 3000+, so while some chapters were autonomous, its hard to tell (for me) how big these ones were and such.

>>49355876
I made it up as the operational grouping inbetween the tactical grouping of Company and strategic grouping of Tzolkin.

Ill have to wait until tomorrow, but how many companies do you want in a Tzolkin? and how much support. Ill do up a diagram later that should fit the bill.

>>49355876
I think I've been using Cadre to refer to specialized groups that operate across force organization chart boundaries, like a siege breaking Cadre. They're fluid groups that go with the companies. I'd been thinking you might have an Armored company, an artillery company, as sort of excepri9ns to the bunch of dudes in transports models as well as a place for specialists. The 3 companies with the tanks would then be the heavy support Cadre and might also have some devastators.
So Tzolkin aren't standardized. The constituents squads in a company are, there's a set number of fundamental building blocks, but the combination and allocation varies.

So there's assault companies, Armored companies, artillery companies, subversion companies, logistics companies, and breacher companies. There's some more, but that's the basic idea.
These are, in turn made up of those squads, which also are made up of basic standardized elements, like a 20 man squad with a pistol and chain macuhuitl.
Or a "squad" of 5 predators (crews of 3+1 support?)

The majority are those assault companies which are those iconic Despoiler squads with chain axes backed up by volkite guys leaping from rhinos, but you can't get by just using those and Xun really likes to borrow from his brothers.

>>49355923
>Cadre as operational group
Perfect. See >>49355965 for potential synergy.

Tzolkin is 20 companies.

>>49355882
Works for me.

Fists here i spent a few days away, whatd i miss?

>>49356253
We got a new guy. Fleshed out the warmaster abit. Figured we need to uodate the wiki. Good prompts on primarch personalities other that hurr durr how i fight/battle.

Oh and an actually quite touching moment between Raydon aodhan and sinistrum. About.making a new storm eagle model

>>49356253
>>49356554
Hi, I'm the new guy.
We also reevaluated some of the color schemes in order to make them more distinct.
The Fists of Mars did not come up in that, it's a pretty sweet paintjob. I did want to suggest making the fists/gauntlets red, but that's up to you.

By the way, did the person in charge of the Storm Hammers ever comment further on the Ultramarines thing? I might've missed that.

>>49356612
Is there even a Storm Hammers person?

I wouldnt be surprised if it wasn't just another Alexios project

>>49356696
I'm not sure. Could very well be.
They're a decent bunch, it's just that they are using the Ultrasmurf scheme that bugs me.

>>49356612
red hand thing is pretty cool but i think that might be overdoing it. if someone makes up another pic of one could be cool to see. What ever happened to the guy making the models? id love to see how they're going.
>>49356554
Read the thing with the new storm eagle, can someone post the prompt ill do that.
So what do you do Doc? just taking an interest or are you controlling a specific group?

>>49356853
I've just taken a general interest. Kind of floating around, asking questions I deem relevant based on thing I learned reading the Horus Heresy books.
I'd love to write some stuff for a specific Legion, but I am not interested in doing it for a Legion someone else came up with.
At the same time I've also accepted that you guys have settled on these 20 legions, so I'm not gonna insist in anything.

>>49356881
You could always churn out some successors.

Successor Chapters in this setting tend to be more closely linked to their Crusader State/progenitor Legion than they are in the OU, but there's still room for tons of them. IIRC the Undying Scions, the Storm Hammers, and the Angels of Light all do successor chapters.

>>49356881
What? man you should totally do some writing

>>49357101
The only Legion that could possibly spawn the Legion/chapter I had in mind would be the Fists of Mars, but they would culturally be very different.
Plus, downgrading a Primarch to a Chapter Master isn't fantastic.

>>49356881
well if it turns out the Storm Hammers are yet another pet project of Alexios, you should claim / convert them.

So far neither them nor Engerand have done ANYTHING. Literally the only thing Engerand has done was someone else put him forward as high commander of the first crusade to reclaim the Imperium.

>>49357222
Maybe I will, but that doesn't seem like a decision I can or should make.

>>49357246
idea: come up with something you would replace them with >>if you could<<.

that way, the primary content providers would be more inclined to support the idea.
essentially sell a better idea

>>49357275
I'll give that shot. Not right now though.
Can't really get my creative juices flowing in class.

Tau genocide when?

>>49357660
Happened already.

Or almost, anyway. Imperium Minorum and the Kor Protectorate had a cold war over them that eventually turned into a hot war.

>>49356253
>>49356612
Thoughts on >>49355142
And
>>49353173
>>49353409
>>49354008
>>49354134
>>49354578

>>49358925
I'll try to read those posts after I get home and I'll give some thoughts.
Won't have a lot of time. D&D calls and a my friends need their DM.

>>49358925
I don't feell ike I'm particularly qualified to comment on a lot of these.
The bits about the Warmaster and his Eyes I do agree with. They should largely fulfil a generalist role. albeit with a focus on infiltration and diversion.
The deception and the propaganda mostly comes from the Warmaster himself, since he is the master of that stuff. Some of his legion may share his scheming and plotting nature, but it should not affect basic Legion tactics.

>>49357174
>>49357222
>>49357275
Ok so, I won't be able to write out anything big right now, but I might as well share what I had in mind.
Gonna take a look at some of the questions that were posed early on in this project.

The VI Legion, the Titan Walkers, lead by the their Primarch: Muharrem Chaudan, the Iron Willed.
The Titan Walkers are a legion specialized in heavy weapons, sieges and deployment alongside the Adeptus Titanicus.
Muharrem himself is stubborn, but indomitable. Methodical, but incredibly effective, which is also reflected in his Legion.

The Walkers would fill a role similar to the Iron Warriors. They're the guys you call in when subduing a world takes too long.
They'll come down with an assortment of super heavy weapons, titans and stratetic orbital fire and ensure a world's compliance, or complete devastation.

The Walkers would be significantly different from the Fists of Mars. The Walker's direct ties to the Mechanicus would only stretch to the Titanicus.
While their relationship with the Mechanicus as a whole would be friendly, they're not particularly involved with them in any way.
The Titan Walkers would bring along an above average number of Titan Legios, 5-6 instead of the usual 2-3.

Muharrem had his own Titan, the Umbra Ignis, one of the finest Imperator-Class Titans ever built, but it was destroyed during the final days of Terra,
killing the Iron Willed with it, as he was directly controlling the Titan as it's Princeps.

>>49360687
Hmmm. I feel like they kinda have a great deal of overlap with the Judgement Bringers (fucktons of heavy artillery, called in to bombard planets into absolute ruin and then ship the few survivors off to work camps) and the Fists of Mars.

I do like the idea of a Primarch with a modified Titan though.

>>49361333
We already have one.

>>49361347
Really? Which one? Sarco? Sorry if I missed that.

>>49362039
Yeah, one of Sarco's dreadnought chassis is the size of a titan. It came up awhile ago, so I'm not surprised you haven't seen it. Sorry.

>>49362058
What size though? I doubt it's Imperator-sized.

>>49362139
That's a good question. All I know for sure is that there was a three-way fight between Sarco, Gengrat and an ork warboss on Armageddon along the red road to Terra.

>>49362058
... For some reason I am relieved now that he's not interested in Calixian legends. Or the Black Suns themselves.

>>49362585
Don't worry, Sarco has been in a coma since Terra fell.

>>49357222
>>49357275
Yeah I was wondering about Engerand and the hammers. Too bad about that since the JBs and the hammers, and their primarchs, were big rivals

>>49362723
Good, good. Because as I see them, the Black Suns aren't that strong a warband. Sure, they have a whole sector under their control, plus strange powers and knowledge, but they are relatively few in number, and dependent on their home advantage and the insanity their cursed sector draws out from those within to hold off attacks, be they from rival warbands or legions. But a titan Primarch... They wouldn't have a chance except to slow him down until he gets bored.

>>49357222
>well if it turns out the Storm Hammers are yet another pet project of Alexios
They aren't.

>>49360687
Wait whats this?

3 issues, 1 titan walkers is a clunky name. 2 whats the difference between them and JB?

Also isnt it abit of a waste to put a primarch in a titan? Like thinking of the situations youd want a primarch personally on the battlefield and times youd want a titan and times.when they overlap?

>>49360687
Real talk Doctor Jobs I like you you're a cool poster but this may be the stupidest idea I've ever read.

Spess Muhreenz in titans
jesus

>>49363640
Methinks it is just the primarch who is commanding the Titan, but I have to say >>49363613
Has the right idea.

These seem to me to be more like Skitarii-Astartes, which is pretty badass, but as Raydonanon asks, why not add that to the Judgement Bringers.

At the same time. Badass image.

>>49363613
>>49363640
>>49363708
Oh man, I fucked up bad there. Gonna be honest, I did not read up on the Judgement Bringers just yet. Now that I have, I totally see the overlap.
I wasn't set on Titan Walkers, so changing that would bother me.
Him using the Titan wouldn't be a common thing, it's something he would only do at a crucial moment, during most engagements he'd be commanding on the ground, doing as a Primarch does.

They wouldn't be Space Marines in Titans, they'd be experts at fighting alongside those God-Engines.

On the whole, I'm alright if people say pass. I definitely see how they'd de similar to the Judgement Bringers. The tactics would certainly have to be changed.

Gonna read up more about the JB right now.

>>49364067
On this subject, don't be discouraged by Chapter Masters being 'less' than primarchs. Chapter Masters have a lot more narrative flexibility, and can be more present during the later stages of the timeline when most of the primarchs are dead or lost or autistic recluses.

High Marshall Helbrecht
Dante
Gabriel Angelos
Predro 'Motherfucking' Kantor

all total badasses

>>49364354
Also, in 30k, you have guys like Sigismund or Autek Mor.

>>49363640
My first idea was marines in knights.

But i couldnt justify the waste of their capability.

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Why do all Traitor Legions have the weird spheres next to their shoulders and Loyalist Legions do not?

>>49364067
I do like the idea of Astartes who specialise to work in tandem with superheavies though.

They could forgo devs, and maybe even assault. Relying on tactical and boarding marines.

Wait, thats the hawks.
Well i knew something about the idea appealed to me.

>>49364797
If by all, you mean two, it's because they used the CSM template instead of the SM template.

>>49364797
Anvillus pattern backpack which supplied tratiors only, and later chaos slash warp exposure

>>49364067
Lowdown on Judgement Bringers:

They're footsloggers and artillery specialists whose Primarch made up for his inability to really master one thing by being ridiculously hard headed and spiteful. He famously had all rhinos, razorbacks, etc in his Legion converted into artillery tanks and spat insults at anyone that questioned how the Legion would retain mobility, telling them to use their fucking legs you faggots stop being such a pussy. He takes a sort of underdog pride in doing things the hard way and normal Legion doctrine is to shell everything to shit then mop up with bolter and chainsword. If the enemy survived? Mop up harder you drizzly cunts, you're not Warhawks, you don't need the element of surprise! If that doesn't work, resume shelling, try again.

They also have a lot of pomp and circumstance about them as the right hand of the Warmaster. It's really important to Enoch that he and his Marines look the part, and they have a sort of Hugo Boss, WWII era fascism theme going on.

They're one of my favourite Legions.

>>49364388
Or Jago Sevatarion. Mai husbando.

It's not impossible for a veteran of the Heresy to be around and leading a bigass chapter in Asunder, by the way. The Emperor's ascension makes it possible for there to be Loyalist daemon princes and champions that remain in their prime essentially forever.

>>49365458
Or IDRIAS STERN

>>49365458
>It's not impossible for a veteran of the Heresy to be around and leading a bigass chapter in Asunder, by the way. The Emperor's ascension makes it possible for there to be Loyalist daemon princes and champions that remain in their prime essentially forever.

Case in point: Eulodius Rex, the Gary Stu to end all Gary Stus

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>>49356612
>>49356853
Just clarifying the Fists of Mars deal, which arm would be red?

>>49364067
>>49364824
>>49365372
So do the Judgement Bringers now march beneath the feet of the God Engines? :3
I imagine Enoch might also have friends in Ordo Reductor, if only so he could get his grubby rock-hands on Ordinatus Engines.

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>>49365541
It's supposed to be black and white, not red and white. I just used a reddish black because I thought it popped better. It's meant to ape off the mechanicus symbol.

>>49365601
I honestly think red works better.

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>>49365601
I think originally it was the Iron Hearts scheme I made up but when Iron Hearts guy posted his degraded bronze scheme it got repurposed to FOM.

>>49365505
>using the powers of some warp entity instead of relying on your own psychic might
The Emperor is dead, Alexios. We can only hope to carry on in his memory.

Speaking of colour schemes, what do you guys think of
>>49338637

I'm thinking on a few others but I can't post them at the moment.

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>>49365997
I really like that one.

>>49365678
>>49365541
For a direct comparison.
Honestly, I prefer the red and white, with black trim, which in part has a nice resonance for the fact that they're Mars devotees.

>>49365541
> enoch might have friends in
>friends
Hahahahaha

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>>49366054
For the sake of completeness...
I still prefer >>49365541


>>49366473
Colleagues? Allies? People in red robes he bosses around?

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>>49367407
Heck, while I'm at it, a better Arms of Asura color...

>>49367407
>>49367503
you should add weapons

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>>49368125

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>>49368354

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>>49335648
Did a little revision because I didn't like the shades on the example marine. I feel like it's a little plain, and am pretty frustrated about how dark the program makes the color look, but still.

>>49365372
"Well... No I guess that's about right (cough)"

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>>49368677
Also, an assault marine, because I was playing around with the customization aspects.

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Less than 50% done but here's what I'm working on.

http://pastebin.com/JueK3DHW

P R O M P T :

What would a 2000pt army of each legion look like?

>>49365997
That one's pretty solid.

>>49366054
Originally I thought it'd be cool to have the armor be quartered with black and white, have red trim on the shoulders and red fists, but I like this as well.

>>49367503
>>49368354
A bit simplistic, I was digging the blue honestly.

>>49368677
This scheme is very fitting for a Second Sons. It really brings out that post-nuclear holocaust vibe imo.

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Storm Hammer that isn't an Ultramarine

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>>49369402

>>49369778
Baller. Besides the odd phrase that reads slightly awkwardly, and that's probably just my opinion, I find nothing wrong with it what-so-ever. Trying to describe what a primarch is like to a human is always interesting.

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Venator of the Negators

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>>49370049

>>49369882
> my list that the Warhawks are based off

Khan on Moondraken
Techmarine

Ravenhawk Assault Group:
Sternguard Veteran 10 man squad with bulk combi-melta in a Stormraven Gunship w/ Dreadnought

2 x 6 man bike squad, 2 w/ special weapons

2 x Fire Raptors
1 x Whirl Wind Scorpius

1 x Imperial Knight Warden (Can be swapped out for 2 x Xiphon Interceptors)

>>49369963
Digging it, fixes the only real problem I had with it.

>>49369778
I like it. Finally got me to figure out the Imperial dating system. Should make things easier from now on.

Interesting thought though. During the Isstvan III atrocity, Horus kills all of the Remembrancers in the Sons of Horus's fleet, as well as the Death Guard's, World Eaters' and Emperor's Children's.
Later on, Malcador completely disbands the order of Remembrancers.

So, what happened to the Remembrancers in Imperium Asunder? They seem like something the Warmaster wouldn't be very fond of.

>>49370175
The Warmaster would rather make up his own history than record the truth. I could see some of the Crusader States maintaining remembrancers of some kind, though.

Malcador lives quite a long time in IA and is desperate to try to keep the fracturing Imperial Remnant together. He might try to maintain the order just to try to maintain SOMETHING.

>>49370175
He might repurpose them to rewrite history as he sees fit.

>>49370205
He is, eh? That's pretty interesting, especially considering Malcador's personal relationship with the Warmaster.
Once again I feel like I've missed some vital info. Is there an updated timeline? The one on the wiki doesn't stretch that far.

>>49369882
>>49370074

An Angels list would be two jetbike squads, a jetbike praetor with maxed out wargear, two squads of marines in drop pods, a landspeeder melta squadron, and maybe an Imperial Bastion full of Varangiran guardsmen.

>>49370274
Malcador survives the siege of Terra and is evacuated along with the Emperor's corpse by some Undying Scions. In the years of the Heresy as the ruinstorm rages, Malcador sets out to re-establish intergalactic content for the loyalists by setting up Astronomicons of much smaller scale, which he calls his Astropathic Beacons, and which come to be colloquially called Abbeys. He mostly puts Astartes Librarians in charge of abbeys, but they are also manned and run by the Silent Sisters, who are in charge of finding psykers to sacrifice to fuel the beacons.

>>49370175
Remembrancers are held in the a high regard by the Warhawks, they don't do medals or ceremony, but they do recount their comrades sagas and linages (its considered bad form to recount a saga of your own. It should be badass enough that someone else wants to brag about knowing you, or being witness)

Its one of the reasons that their Spectre operatives are considered such a horrible (yet honourable) life. They operate alone, and their entire job description revolves around not having witnesses.

>>49370274
Actually, just a thought. As "fresh eyes" in this whole thing. It might be worth you assembling the timeline, and asking questions about the blanks we haven't filled in.

Does that make sense to anyone else? I feel like its a good way to ensure everything get put in the right place.

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>>49370175
I was writing a story about Saul on Armageddon from the point of view of a remembrancer, but never finished it.

>>49370349
I might be able to figure out a timeline. I'll try to get on that once I get home from college.

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>>49370400
good luck kohai

>>49369882
>>49370074
>>49370285
A 2000 point Judgement Bringer force might look something like this:

Chapter Master in terminator armor, storm shield, teeth of terra

10 assault terminators thunder hammer/storm shield

10 tactical marines, bolt pistol/chainsword, flamer
10 tactical marines, bolt pistol/chainsword, flamer

10 tactical marines, bolters, missile launcher, melta
10 tactical marines, bolters, missile launcher, melta

10 devastator marines, heavy bolters

10 devastator marines, lascannons

3 whirlwinds

vindicator

>>49371135
I had imagined more

+ Chapter Master.
+ X amount of tactical squads, grenade launchers.
+ Whirlwinds (x3)
+ Whirlwinds (x3)
+ Vindicators (x3)

Currently reading up on some written stuff to get a feel for the order of events.

Did lead me to a question. What were the Eyes of the Warmaster called before REDAC became the Warmaster?

>>49371446
Good. Question, I don't remember anything being discussed.

Ill put forth a few ideas.
> Griffon Legion
> Steel Wardens
> Disciples of Terra
> Knights Solar
> Watch Masters

>>49371446
It's supposed to be unknown

>>49371523
Alright, I suppose. Don't think we should keep everything blank though. Just because characters in universe don't know, doesn't mean we shouldn't decide on them.

>>49371535
I agree. It doesn't hurt anyone for us to know, especially since it leaves options later to leave hints and such about their history for the audience. Nods and such.

Ok so, right now I've written pretty much everything the the wiki has to offer on the Legions and the Primarchs.
Dates are gonna be another thing, but I'll try to atleast put things in an order that makes sense.

Was the order of Primarch discovery ever decided upon?

>>49371666
When I say written, I mean read.

>>49371666
IIRC it's set in stone that the first few are:

1. The Warmaster
2. Faustus
3. Marcus
4. Alexios
5. Raydon

>>49371717
incorrect.

Raydon is 3 Alexios is 4 and Marcus is 5.

You got it the wrong way round lol

>>49371666
I have saved the changes to a post which were

7. Rubinek
9. Klaus
11. Xun
15. Kashlan
17. Oramar
19. Grengrat

Which combined with >>49371791
gives us roughly 11

>>49371717
Wait. But Marcus is on Mars, right?

He's literally right next door to Big E.

>>49371816
I'm guessing 6 is Sarco and 8 is Klaus. Then 10 is Engerand and 12 is Aodhan.

>>49371820
I don't think he is on mars, I think thats just their name / theme.

He is found somewhere else I thought anyway.

>>49371849
Ahhh, okay.

>>49371816
So...?

>PRE IRON JUDGEMENT
1. The Warmaster
2. Faustus
3. Raydon
4. Alexios
5. Marcus
6. Sarco
7. Rubinek
8. Aodhan
9. Klaus
10. Balthasar
11. Xun
12. Engerand
>POST IRON JUDGEMENT
13. Enoch
14. Anders
15. Kashaln
16. Saul
17. Oramar
18. Anshul
19. Gengrat
20. Graha'nak

I feel like we should swap one of the loyalists with one of the traitors. The bad guys are a bit bunched up at the end.

>>49372115
May as well move Engerand down and/or Klaus.

Neither of their characters gain anything from being earlier

>>49372115
What's the Iron Judgement?

I think the wiki needs a lot of work.

>>49372181
yeah what is Iron Judgement?

>>49372181
>>49372190
Literally just made up the term right there to describe the Emperor's decree that the Iron Hands are too wack to stay in his galaxy.

>>49372261
>Iron Hands

Uhh, Iron Hearts.

>>49372139
I think we could drop Xun down actually.

His homeworld is far as fuck from Terra and IIRC Rubinek didn't know who he was until someone told him.

How about:

1. The Warmaster
2. Faustus
3. Raydon
4. Alexios
5. Marcus
6. Sarco
7. Rubinek
8. Aodhan
9. Klaus
10. Balthasar
11. Saul
12. Enoch
13. Engerand
14. Xun
15. Kashaln
16. Anders
17. Oramar
18. Anshul
19. Gengrat
20. Graha'nak

>>49372537
good for me

PROMPT:

Which OU Primarch would your Primarch like the most? Which would they hate the most?

Which OU Legion would your Legion work best with? Which would they work the least effectively with?

>>49372261
What? Ok, guess I'll have to try and fit that in too.
Any other big events that aren't on the wiki?

(I'm starting to sound like a broken record)

>>49372908
A lot of the events are split across the various pages. I don't know if anyone has read EVERYTHING on all the pages in such a way to remember it all.

Maybe post what youve done up and people can fill in the blanks?

>>49372973
This may be a good idea. It'd be nice to know what events and such aren't hugely visible to a newcomer so we can make them so.

The Iron Hearts thing is on their wiki page IIRC. Basically the Emperor found out that Rubinek has stabilised his sons' horribly mutative geneseed flaws through heretek. He was furious as fuck and sent Balthasar and his Legion to purge the Iron Hearts with extreme prejudice.

Unfortunately for the Bloodhounds, nobody quite knew how much the Iron Hearts had been enhanced by Rubinek's heretek ways. Balthasar expected to be purging a severely under strength Legion of pathetic gene failures. He was totally unprepared to face the new and improved Iron Hearts and got his shit rekt in the initial assault, forcing him to withdraw to call in reinforcements. By the time the Bloodhounds had regrouped and formed a more nuanced plan of attack, the Iron Hearts had fled into the void.

They're discovered later by the Negators, who were going to make a case for bringing them back into the fold. Then Nikaea happened and history repeated itself with the Warp Raiders and the Negators decided maybe telling the Emperor they'd been associating with renegades was a bad idea.

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>>49372973
>>49370811

Just got home from college, I'll post what I've figured out so far soon.

>>49372669
I guess the Negators would work best with Blood Angels, or hammer and anvil style with a Legion like the Iron Hands or the Death Guard. Their Primarch would like Sanguinius, Corvus, and Vulkan. Probably Curze too. He'd hate Lorgar and Perturabo. Probably Russ too.

The Arms of Asura would obviously work best with the Thousand Sons. Anshul would have a lot in common with Magnus and possibly hang out with Curze. He'd admire Sanguinius' kindness and civility too. Ferrus would be too autistic to spend time with him and Fulgrim too materialistic.

- Events in Main 40kU

- Emperor gains great power through the warpgate on Molech.

- Emperor using gained power and knowledge to create 20 sons, the Primarchs.

- Diverence from the Main 40kU: Primarchs are different from the Main 40kU.

- Primarchs stolen from the Emperor and spread all over the galaxy (Even though 2 end up in the Sol System, sloppy work really).

- Emperor creates 20 legions of Space Marines.

- REDACTED discovered living in the Terran hives.

- The Emperor instructs Malcador to raise REDACTED, allowing the Sigilite to nurture him as a Spymaster.

- REDACTED is assigned to conquer Luna. Faustus Ascelpious is found leading Luna's defenses.

- The Emperor arrives on Luna with two of his sons. Cult Mechanicus is allowed to exist within the Imperium of Man.

- Great crusade begins. The lost worlds of humanity are reconnected.

- Great crusade spreads, lost primarchs are recovered.

- Warp Raiders attempt to teach their witchcraft to the librarians of the Sky Serpents. Xun spreads the word, which reaches the Emperor.

- Council of Nikaea. Primarchs discuss the dangers and benefits of sorcery.
After revealing that the Warp Raiders are using warp entities to aid them, the Emperor declares that Oramar and his legion should be executed.

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>>49374552
- Bloodhounds are sent as executioners, but the Warp Raiders manage to flee.

- Warp Raiders and Oramar find xenos ruins. They discover the truth about Chaos.
In order for humanity to have any chance of survival, the Emperor must die. REDACTED finds out about this as well.

- Warmaster begins plotting his rebellion. Starts evaluating which brothers would join him.

- Warmaster calls all Primarchs and their honor guards for a massive tournament.
During the tournament Milvious Garmon, a Silver Spear, kills Samandrial Huss, a Crimson Warhawk, and declares: "Death to the False Emperor!"
The Judgement Bringers rain down artillery on the coliseum. Klaus Staffel fights the Warmaster, but the latter escapes. Enoch the Relentless fights Engerand.

- The Heresy begins. (We need a better name. REDACTED Heresy doesn't sound right)

- The Siege of Terra. Emperor dies. Klaus Staffel dies (?). (The ins and outs of the siege really need work).

- Eye of Terra is created. Loyalists flee to the galactic east. Firewall is created. (I can't find a whole lot about the Firewall, but I know it's important).

- Warmaster takes control of the remnants of the Imperium and Terra, redubbing it the Dark Imperium.

That's what I've got so far. I want to plot out all events before and during the Heresy first.

>>49374593
Did you read my bit of writefaggotry about Sarco waking up?

>>49374629
If I remember correctly, he was shot down 5 years before the Council of Nikaea and reawakened as a Dreadnought 5 days before before that same council.

>>49374663
Well, he wasn't shot down, he got injured in a duel with an Eldar phantom.

>>49374686
Noted. I'll add that in.

>>49374552
>>49374593
Okay so, the stuff with the Iron Hearts happened long before Nikaea.

Ullanor is, just as in the main canon, where the Warmaster is dubbed Warmaster.

Just before the Tournament, the Warmaster gets the Oathsworn censored for gene heresy. The 2nd Luna Campaign begins. The Tournament is as much about assessing loyalty and keeping up morale in the wake of this development. At least, that's how the Warmaster sells it.

Prior to the tournament, Sarco and Aodhan are sent to pacify a system near the edge of Segmentum Obscurus. This is so Aodhan can attempt to bring him into the Heresy, and failing that, hold him as far from Terra as possible.

The battle for Armageddon is fought between the Behemoth Guard and the Second Sons , with the Scions arriving later to reinforce the Loyalists. The barbarity of the conflict drives Saul to nuke the entire planet and begins the Second Sons' descent into Nurgle worship.

>>49374870
I'll add in the Iron Judgement, the 2nd Luna Campaign and Sarco and Aodhan's mission.

I'll hold off on the battle for Armageddon. The Heresy deserves it's own timeline.

I brought this up a few threads ago, but it never got anywhere: What exactly happened to Sarco on Terra to make him go comatose?

>>49375491
His titan could have been wrecked? He goes comatose in the wreckage, but the sturdy bastard manages to survive.

>>49375540
I figured that his titan was totaled on Armageddon so he had to use his Leviathan chassis on Terra. I know that he duels Aodhan, maybe Gengrat uses the opportunity to infect his systems with scrap code or something.

>>49375491
Way I see it, there's two major options.

1. Gengrat afflicts him with something during their battle on Armageddon. Though he'd have to get through the Knight chassis Sarco is using first.

2. Aodhan wounds him so horribly on Terra that even that sarcophagus can't keep him fully conscious.

>>49375741
>>49376083
Mm. I think an important question is when Gengrat becomes a daemon prince and what he does to earn it.
This said, a scrap code infection makes a lot of sense to me.


(Either way, I'm imagining his ascension involves speaking in machine tongues.)

>>49376276
Maybe when he gets Saul to finally fall all the way to Chaos?

Of course, Tzeentch might want a refund when Saul becomes a Nurgle daemonprince shortly thereafter.

>>49376396
>Maybe when he gets Saul to finally fall all the way to Chaos?

Makes sense.

That would be the very end of the Battle of Armageddon, then?

>>49376433
Would have to be. There isn't much Armageddon left after the fact.

Anyone got stuff they want added to the timeline?

>>49377247
I believe there are a few crusades within the Great Crusade that people have started to detail. The Calixis Crusade, etc, must have happened after Ullanor, but before Nikaea.

It'd be good to set down when certain planets became established in their current forms. When Alexios culled New Constantine's population and rebuilt his central metropolis over its ruins, stuff like that.

>>49377617
I was going off the official timeline for those two.
Im the OU, there's only a year between the two.

>>49373140
This iron judgement event seems like the perfect thing to have triggered the very start of Enoch having his doubts about the Emperor, and eventually becoming disillusioned

>>49377708
Yeah, it seems like the Emperor retired a little earlier in this timeline. Probably because he had more Primarchs running around doing his will. The Ullanor campaign was probably shorter too, due to the sheer number of Legionnaires that could be brought to the field.

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>>49370850
Really don't like that red and white Fist, do you?
>>49368394

>>49369884
Let's try something with a bit of blue, then...

>>49376396
Hmm, maybe that's part of why Gengrat gets sent to Mars (not that he resists).

Perhaps part of his atonement is going to Mars and unlocking the vaults of Moravec?

Man, I'm imagining the fuck out of Sarco v Gengrat now.

>clad in his Knight Thanator chassis, Sarco besieges the central manufactorum-hive of Armageddon
>its population are soon revealed to be long dead, and a deranged Gengrat emerges from between the hive's teetering spires piloting a gargantuan biomechanical monstrosity wrought from mechanicus steel and woven hiver flesh
>a retinue of similar beasts tear free of their abhorrent wombs buried in the deeps of the hive and lumber toward Sarco
>securing his mammoth power sword and shield-mounted graviton imploder, Sarco transmits a hellish roar, tearing through the beasts. Their claws rake the adamantium from his chassis, tearing loose thick arterial pathways of ancient tubing, spilling prometheum across the hive by the gallon. Still he advances
>his beasts torn asunder, Gengrat charges his own steed. The battle shakes the surface of Armageddon, but eventually Sarco tears a chink in the abomination's armour, plunging the barrel of his graviton imploder into its innards and collapsing the beasts' internal organs in upon themselves
>tearing Gengrat from his steed by his mechandrites, he hurls the traitor down, every bone in the Primarch's body shattering as he crashes down amidst the ruins of the hive
>offering his devotions to the Emperor, Sarco moves to crush the maniac traitor underfoot, but is stilled by the sound of warning sirens calling across Armageddon, indicating that someone has initiated the planet's own Exterminatus Protocols, and the world's surface will soon be bathed in nuclear fire
>bringing a nearby hab block down on Gengrat with a sweep of his blade, he leaves the crippled Primarch to die in the blaze
>Gengrat's laughter echoes across the wastes, even as tons of concrete wash over him

>>49370850
>>49377818